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Subscribe to RSSANNAPOLIS, Md. -- Ron Wyden figured he wouldn't get a chance to ask President Obama directly. So, in an interview Wednesday at the Democrats' Senate Retreat, the member of the Intelligence Committee -- a day before the president's nominee to be CIA director -- said he had serious questions about the non-classified Justice Department memo, obtained by NBC News.
"The memo doesn't answer the central questions," said the Oregon senator and longtime critic of the drone strikes. To Wyden, the central questions revolve around, "When does the government have the legal right to kill an American?"
The memo outlines the administration's justification for the targeted killing of American citizens overseas -- via drone strikes -- if they are considered high-level al Qaeda operatives and may be plotting attacks against the U.S.
The retreat in Annapolis was highlighted by a visit from the president. He had received a letter from Wyden and 10 other senators, both Republicans and Democrats, asking to see the rationale for that "right," as outlined in the memo.
In fact, Wyden contended, "The administration has essentially been stonewalling the committee and myself and others for over two years by not actually making that memo available with someone willing to answer questions about it."
Brennan's confirmation hearing Thursday will give Wyden his chance.
"And I want it understood that because this is such a central time, where you have an individual with such enormous influence who's really the architect of the counter-terror policy in the Obama administration," Wyden said, "that I'm going to pull out all the stops to get the actual legal analysis, because without it, in effect, the administration is, in effect, practicing secret law."
Brennan has been the president's top anti-terrorism adviser and has 25 years of CIA experience.
Wyden says the inability to get answers, coupled with the thought that life-and-death targeted killing decisions can be made without any judicial process "makes a mockery out of the oversight process."
Before hustling in to hear the president, Wyden concluded, "In effect, this position is no different than the position the Bush administration adhered to in [the overall war on terror], which, I guess is largely, 'Trust us. Trust us; we'll make the right judgments.'"
At the White House, facing a second day of questions about the matter, spokesman Jay Carney indicated the president himself is not worried by the leak.
"He thinks that it is legitimate to ask questions about how we prosecute the war against al Qaeda," Carney said.
Leave a Comment:
I am undecided on this drone issue.
Having said that, I am 100% certain that anytime an American citizen joins forces with our enemies, they have automatically denounced their citizenship!
Their loss of rights & freedoms is a small price to pay for treasonous behavior!
Undecided? Killing someone without due process. You libs have a conniption fit about people who have been convicted and sentenced to death even with DNA evidence and you have no problems about whacking someone just because you think, just think, they have done something wrong.
@Morgs,
You libs...
You who?
Ok.
You Repubs had no problem with detaining or killing people without due process under the Patriot Act.
"If you are a good American, you have nothing to worry about."
Remember?
Today its used for terrorists but who knows what the government will do with this in the future! This is a very dangerous precedent.
Their loss of rights & freedoms is a small price to pay for treasonous behavior!
Lets take away the rights and freedoms of our elected officials then. They have pissed all over the Constitution with the Patriot Act, the NDAA, the drone strikes, the war on drugs, etc. That is treason.
I agree Feisty, if you think so little of your American heritage that you will join forces with the enemy then you get what you deserve. They are Americans in name only.
It was a TV program, in the 70's I believe that said it best, "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" It is not like we can go in and arrest these people and take them to trial.
Satinic, that is absolutely no argument at all, what might happen? If you hate this government so much why don't you go join the terriorist.
As it is with all nations, tribes and families.
What is the difference between a drone attack and that of a cruse missile?
If the United States gets hit again by terrorist on our our soil, many people will be screaming for the use of more drones. This is a tricky issue.
Satanick ... treason
United States Code at 18 U.S.C. § 2381 states "whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."
@Job1,
This is a tricky issue.
Yes, it is. No easy answers here.
Feisty, I am torn on this issue. I don't think President Obama would abuse this power but I tend to agree with Bali Bob.
John,
I think your referring to "Baretta"!
Who will ever forget "Huggy Bear"? lol
They lose their presumption of innocence? They lose their Constitutional Right to due process?
WOW Feisty - not sure you would be uttering these words if the administration had been a Republican - actually I am sure - you would have clogged this thread with moral grandstanding the likes we have never seen.
I am sure a little research on your postings on the matter would show that you favored more strident recognition of the Rights of foreign combatants than you just displayed about actual U.S. citizens.
How easily you discard your principles.
Was it "tricky" when the Patriot act was passed?? Bet not.
Feisty, Baretta staring good old Robert Blake the murderer.
Bingo Homer!
You do know how to read after all... lol
By all means, go ahead and prove this asinine point of yours...
Let's see how sure you are, I've got time.
Lisa,
Same state let let OJ walk! Nuff said!
You do have to admit it was a good show back then... kinda edgy..?
You are the last person I would have guessed would have been for summary execution. Interesting that you hold a view even more extreme than Dick Cheney.
Feisty, Robert Blake won an emmy award for that part. Remember the parrot.
Huggy Bear was on Starsky & Hutch, missing the mark again aren't we. lol
Lisa, your shooting your mouth off again, he was found not guilty. That means they couldn't prove it, and neither can you.
Yeah Feisty, it was Beretta. I wonder if all these government haters realize we live in a country where our government is suppose to be us? Self hate, isn't that a mental state called republican?
You're thinking of Rooster. Funny how back then the black sidekicks all had to have goofy nicknames.
I stand corrected - thank you!
Johntho
What is the difference between a drone attack and that of a cruse missile?
==============
Definitely a complex issue that can seem to have a black n white answer, but then quickly gets followed up by a bunch of yeah buts....
Bringing the argument down a bit from war with enemies of the State to a bit closer to home. What exactly is the fundamental different between targeted drone killing of American citizens after x, y and z thresholds are deemed as being met vs. the law enforcement that recently killed that old man who had kidnapped that young, 5 year old boy? At it's core level, they (whoever 'they' are) deemed that x, y and z threshold had been met and the only way to deal with the scenario was to kill the man.
At the fundamental level, what is the real difference? I ask it not knowing a definitive answer, but honestly asking is this scenario really new to our society...that the government makes decisions to kill American citizens under certain conditions (when those conditions aren't always black n white?)
No problem F, sorry Q22 you are wrong. Snoop Dogg even played him in the remade movie.
I'm in agreement Feisty, you betray your country in any way, you dont deserve any consideration, you are an enemy combatant.
I have faith that President Obama, would use this power judiciously under the right circumstances, but I think, what would a Dick Cheney or Richard Nixon do with such awesome power?. I somehow don't have the same faith in their use of such power and that is where my doubts center.
Johntho,
Can you do me a favor and go easier on Lisa.
She leans more a bit more right then left but she is a good person and one of a only a handful around here who isn't bat @!$%# crazy!
Thanks! ;o)
Dick Cheney isnt in charge...Barack Hussein Obama is and that right there is why there is this 'free pass'. I believe they call it partisan. Patriot Act is bad, under Bush, under Obama, under anyone.
Except if its KSM, then he gets due process and presumtion of innocence. Hell if Holder had his way, it would be a civilian trial. Again this goes to Who currently is in charge and you'll soon see why its OK now.
OK, Allen, thanks for at least trying. The difference could be anonymity. A cruse missile might not be as accurate and kill a lot more innocent bystanders, however both are important tools to the war on terror, and as far as I am concerned these people that want to kill Americans by terrorist attack are not worthy of due process, especially when they take refuge in a hostile state. They are the enemy.
We have met the enemy and he is us. -- Pogo. Just thought I would throw that in.
You misunderstood. Huggy Bear was on Starsky & Hutch. Rooster was on Baretta.
Satinic, that is absolutely no argument at all, what might happen? If you hate this government so much why don't you go join the terriorist.
What might happen? What happens when the government kills someone that is not actually a terrorist through faulty intelligence? What happens when future presidents decide to use drone strikes on American soil against anyone that the government deems a possible terrorist who might be planning an attack?
So standing up for liberty makes me a terrorist sympathiser?
Doesn't this miss the point? Since when can the American government unilaterally murder anyone on the planet upon some vague or even strong suspicion. Why is the debate limited to the right to kill Americans.
it makes you an American but to a liberal American equals terrorist
Johntho,
Good question.
What I know about drones is that some guy in McDill Airforce base outside of Tampa, hits a button. There goes the drone, hitting its target, and the guy in Florida leaves work to pick up his kid from socer practice.
War can be totally fought from a computer room.
Gingerbread Mama, so are you saying we should send a drone over to Leavenworth to kill Bradley Manning?
[it makes you an American but to a liberal American equals terrorist]
What a crybaby...is there ANYTHING that you don't piss your pants over? Tool. ;)
And you can't go to Burning Man...you'll get eaten alive.
Hiya, Morgs. How's the old Winnebago?
I, too, and somewhat undecided. I'm against it, because we are lowering our 'upper-ground' status on these things. You know- that ol' American Exceptionalism deal. On the other hand, sure would hate to have someone on the right accuse me of being a 'soft on terrorists' Democrat.
Kna-wa-mean??
(but then again, I wonder how many die from a Tomahawk cruise missle, even though they haven't been tried, either? Yeah, Yeah- I know they are not US CITIZENS, but still, they are citizens of humanity. Kna-wa-mean?)
"it makes you an American but to a liberal American equals terrorist"
....WOW.
Job1
If the United States gets hit again by terrorist on our our soil, many people will be screaming for the use of more drones. This is a tricky issue.
Many people will be screaming for border control.
If the United States gets hit again by terrorist on our our soil, many people will be screaming for the use of more drones. This is a tricky issue.
No its really not a tricky issue. So what if the majority of Americans think that assassinations are ok. That does not make it so. Under this drone program the government can kill an American citizen simply for suspecting that they might be planning an attack on America. They don't have to have any evidence. The government could conceivably make something up and lie. Its hard to imagine the government lying to the people isn't it....
I am not worried about killing a known terrorist or enemy of this country.Those people who have sworn to kill Americans and destroy our way of life have no legal rights as far as i am concerned.Why should we wait for them to kill one of us 1st.When it comes to these terrorists it's kill or be killed.Do you think they worry about legalities before they attack us?If killing a terrorists prevents one American from being harmed i am all for it.
Freak, cannabilism is illegal. Thats ok Mickey I knew you werent equipped with the proper male tools to pick up that guantlet. How do you and fisty put it? PUSSY
hey douche bag werent you whining about Rubio not being token wetback enough for you? stick that in your arse
yeah Buzz, just as stupid as the orinigal reply to Satanick. I agree stupid. But you realized that right? Sure ya did
Yes Satinick, what might happen, we are at war, what might happen is we might be at war, it. Look, if a guy is setting in Lebanon and is plotting to take you out with a dirty nuke, do you suppose it would be ok to go arrest him and bring him to trial? How big an army and how many casualties do you think that MIGHT HAPPEN in that case. The drone is a tool we have like a nuke, I think the people who make it to president will use good judgement when to call on it to eradicate a threat. You don't
You don't trust the government to make decisions on how to run the war, and you worry what might happen if they do run the war. I trust the government to do what is best for me. Its about available technology. I want them to use whatever necessary to keep America safe.
I expect this argument is the same argument went on before the use of nukes. Most Americans are glad we did that.
". The government could conceivably make something up and lie. Its hard to imagine the government lying to the people isn't it...." Why are you even here?
Fiesty what is you tell people about the ignor feature? You know? Lisa is free to use that isn't she?
"Can you do me a favor and go easier on Lisa."
Parker,
perhaps too much shock and too little awe of late.
Of course, apologies if I overstepped.
Only trying to bring you current on members history here at First Read...
Ikarus perhaps im damned if do, damned if i dont from the liberal left so might as well go balls to the wall so they say. Im called a rightwing partisan all the time right Micks? I might as well live up to the accusation.
PS Micks before you stick your foot in mouth, you assume too much.
The fisting deadhead once again opens up with a post demonstrating complete uninformed idiocy. Par for the couse. It only knows that it's lord and savior is the one ordering the killings so the indiscrimate killing must be alright.
For every one "terrorist" killed in a drone strike 50 bystanders are killed. These numbers include women and children who may have no knowledge as to terrorism. The droner-in-chief has ordered drone strikes on funerals and weddings. It became so bad that the govt expanded the definition of a "terrorist" to include anyone killed in a drone strike. Over 3000 civilians have been killed under Obama's drone strike program.
Now, according to the psycho Eric Holder, they can kill anybody they wish because they say so, and that's all required to be legal.
Of course, it is the way with Democratic Presidents...kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out.
Parker ... go fishing in a barrel with a grenade and you will go to bed hungry.
blackcatwhitecat
that maybe true but im not fishing at FR. But here Ikarus, just feel kosher that my uncouth whiney pussy behavior isnt directed at you. Ikarus, if i really felt like you were trying to be a pal with the idioms i might heed your advice but since I dont think there is any geniune intent, i will take it with a grain of salt, so I kindly say thanks but no thanks
[...so might as well go balls to the wall so they say. Im called a rightwing partisan all the time right Micks? I might as well live up to the accusation.]
Ahh, but caesar...one has to have balls if they are to put them to the wall. Cowards don't have balls...that's what separates you from the men.
Nice how you've given in to "living up to accusations". Way to cave in, dude. You can't even stand up for what you believe in, and that there is what makes you the coward you really are. You can't seem to catch a break, all the "lefty libruls" are getting one over on you. You're weak, Caesar.
And yes, you would get eaten alive at Burning Man. You wouldn't make it through the gate, that's how closed minded you are.
Oh, did you get my friend request? I mean, you spend sooo much time here with people that don't like you, I'll pretend to be your friend, and you can tell people you finally have one. It'll be a win-win for everyone. ;)
Oh sheesh, where are my steel toed dancing shoes?
Mickey the ball is in your court. I'll pick ya up at RTI for burning man. Put up or shut up. Talk is cheap.
you werent mumbling that when they were dangling from your chin...YOU JUST GOT OWNED!
Hey you miss spanky? Yeah he owned you too.
how did you put it, must suck to get you ass handed by a emasculated man then. U MAD I OWN YOU.
Hey Ikarus, your catamite is shooting off with manpleaser again, might want to put a chain on that tongue of his
Parker, as long as the cup he is holding for me is full of wine, Mickey is free to do and say as he pleases.
You two would have a water fight on day one at Burning Man and both die of dry spittle.
Caesar, don't go away mad...just go away. People here tried to connect with you, but you, being the paranoid ignorant, closed-minded bigot that you are, you just burn all those bridges the minute someone says something that disagrees with your skewed vision of the world. You even caved and called a truce, and in the very next post you take a jab. Hell, you even insulted fellow servicemen, for gods sake. You don't see anything wrong with that. No you don't. That's why you are an idiot.
Well, you know what? Tough @!$%#...life is tough. It's even tougher when you're an idiot. But you already know that, after all...you're in "infrastructure" right?
Sure you are....now quit wetting your trousers just because someone disagrees with you.
WTF? the people the connect with me share the same views...youre a crackhead. But yeah show me how im a bigot? Werent you talking about how Rubio wasnt token wetback enough? yeah. I have had plenty of correspondence without being rude and hostile with the opposing view..
Chris Dorr? or Torpedo you? Torp and I have reconciled as far as i am concerned. I realize him and I will have different politcal views but brothers in arms to the end.
You call me weak and idiot yet you run with the crowd that had to have a clandestine hideout to get posters removed and correspond with a Hack of reported to do so... So @!$%# off with this coward @!$%#. Like i said I'll meet up at RTI if you show up for burning man, you default to avoiding by calling me a coward.
nope ass, you came back with the handing ass @!$%# like you did constantly so as you said ball is in your court. Face it your a partisan sheep that has no thought process. I have stood my ground, you however hide behind other posters going 'ya man you got your ass handed'. So spanky was right, we dont know enough about you, since youre so brave and all.
Youre right for once, so quit whining about how you dont get all the @!$%#ing freebies and how Obama isnt your Lord and King and how Rubio isnt Minority enough for you side etc. But calling me an idiot, sounding like Seeking, guess you got one of them Duke Degrees. Here, no truce, you ignore me and I'll ignore you. I wont go away mind you, especially since you want me to. Da Comrade
Im done with your Catamite Ikarus you can keep your Greek Tragedy.
I'm just trying to figure out why rational people engage this scum bag?
Although, I realize watching a public meltdown has the same equivalency as watching a train wreck! LMFAO
I do have to mention how much I enjoyed Little Sleazure getting his teeth handed to him on a previous thread. It was master full! lmao
If you ignore the likes of Sleazure and the rest, eventually they shrivel up and blow away... right where they belong!
Thanks Parker, but I will keep Ganymede's comedy closer ... afraid tragedy has served it's purpose in younger days.
The entire allusion to Mickey as being Catamitus is a fetch too far.
Hey Caesar, that was quite an entertaining exchange. Thanks for the laughs.
I don't bother with Mickey. She has some serious penis envy issues and seems to be infatuated with many of the posters junk here at FR.
Waiting for Feisty to be for rendition when she finds out that St. Obama has been doing it all along.
BTW...I wonder how those Norwegians feel about their Peace Prize going to a guy who thinks it's OK to summarily execute American citizens (and minors) suspected of aiding terrorists without any due process.
Feisty is a kid, she has no clue about the real world. She hides behind her daddy's laptop or most likely outdated desktop and spews her idiocracy as soon as her liberal loons tell her a new story is coming out. She's one of the brainwashed idiots that we all worry about. She has no standards other than a few and I do mean a "few" clever euphemisms.
People like Feisty live in a fantasy world where they ignore self evalution because they are afraid of what they might find and instead focus on everything they find wrong with the world. The problem is that their "world" ignores people they adore, people they agree with politically and themselves. She's a pathetic creature worthy of our sympathy but nothing else.
It appears Wolfhound would deploy drones to destroy half the middle east.
I'm surprised there's "undecideds." Listen in on overseas phone calls, waterboard three actual terrorists with evidence, or humiliate detainees taken from the battlefield at Abu Graib and you're deemed a war criminal. But simply killing suspects is okay?
I'd like to see those who would do us harm wiped out, too. But this is not the way we do it. We're supposed to better than that.
Do the Taliban still hide behind their Woman and Children, Very brave of them I would say, "Yes" drones are required with dirtbags like them !!!
PS - No boots on the ground saves American lifes, now that is smart - thanks Mr. President, job well done !!!
You realize you'd take out the women and children too. You okay with that?
Oh yeah. The Left is just as cold blooded as they imagine the Right to be - as long as it's their guy pulling the trigger.
1. Nothing is wrong about the use of armed drones against Americans(?) in a military conflict. If a person is a Traitor, then swift justice is one's reward. PS: A precision strike is MUCH better than bombings as in WWII.
2. Nothing is wrong about the use of unarmed drones by Law Enforcement in the pursuit of any criminal activity. They are just another tool to help nab miscreants.
3. Nothing is wrong about the use of drones, say by the Forestry Service, mapping services, advertisement services, etc. Remember, a picture is worth a thousand words.
Feisty, NP, no apology needed. I just wanted you to know that lisa has tools too, and if I am hurting her feelings, she is hurting this country in my opinion. Even a moderate righty is still a righty and for the most part only care about themselves. I do admit I picked that one because she called Robert Blake a murderer. Anyone even OJ deserves the benefit of the doubt if a jury finds them not guilty. Once they are let free, in the eyes of the law they are not guilty of the crimes charged.
I'm one lib who is not undecided.
I'm for the drone strikes. It's far better to take out Al Qaeda terrorists with a drone than to send hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops into a foreign country and kill thousands of innocent civilians, and our guys, to stop one terrorist.
Killing someone without due process? Yeah, that's called WAR.
Who claims our military intelligence has targeted innocent people, that we're 'whacking someone because we just think they've done something wrong'? Prove it.
It's funny how the people who are all up in arms about the government 'taking away' your assault weapons are the SAME PEOPLE who are all up in arms about the drone strikes. If a Republican president was using drones, you'd be 150% in favor of it.
You're also the very same people who claim to "support" our troops, yet you'd rather our people be blown to bits by a roadside bomb than use drones to take out the terrorists.
Why don't you cowboys take your guns and go after the terrorists in Yemen, Pakistan, Syria, Libya, Mali, etc.? Simple answer: You don't have the guts to step foot in those places.
Pretty sad when a senator cant tell right from wrong without consulting a lawyer of all people.
Johntho, How the hell am I hurting this country
@ kaybee
I'm assuming that it will be just fine to take out a potential threat on the southside of Chicago? The collateral damage would be just a casualty of saving lives. Too bad this wasn't available to take out Bill Ayers.
@blackcatwhitecat - Your quote about treason is correct except for one small problem. It requires a judicial ruling of treason. A right to due process is allowed all citizens under the Constitution. Unless, you want to suspend Constitutional rights for all citizens. Then that's a bigger issue all together, that affects both you and me, and which I would oppose quite hardily. To arbitrarily kill a U.S. citizen because they are suspected of treason, without evidence to the fact, is criminal in nature in itself.
"Power taken is rarely given back."
George W. Bush took it with the Patriot Act.
The Obama Administration has decided to keep it.
Didn't like it then; don't like it now...
Bali Bob -
As you said above, no easy answers here. Does it make a difference if the "American" citizen is the sole target? What if they're the sole American in a room full of foreign terrorists? Is a drone strike any more or less wrong because he happens to be there? Or do we need to ask him to leave the room before then killing everyone else in it, in which case it's just business as usual?
I didn't like it then either. Don't like it now, and I'm a liberal. But then again, I don't like war to begin with. And I'm also a liberal who recognizes that the rules of civilized warfare - if that's not an oxymoron to begin with - are different in today's world. Should we always fight fair when the other side never does? Yes, because that's what makes us better than them. But if we do, then we have to be willing to accept the consequences.
I just find it fascinating that so many of the people now railing against drone strikes against possibly innocent people are the same ones who still support imprisonment without a trial and torture of possibly innocent people at the same time. Double standard much?
But of course, this is a political blog. If it weren't for "easy" answers, we wouldn't have any at all, would we?
@Jo,
Double standard much?
Yep. What was seen as acceptable under Bush is now seen as horrible under Obama by folks on the Right.
To me, unsavory either way, but call me a Liberal like yourself who understands the rules of war... and yes, "civilized warfare" is indeed an oxymoron.
Okay, not for nothing, but does anyone think that the 9/11 terrorists made inquiries as to who they were killing before they slammed three planes into our buildings and another plane (planned to hit the Capitol) slammed into the ground thus murdering over 3,500 innocent people? I am usually somewhat of a pacifist when it comes to wars and such, but I am all for the drones. As I've said before, better drones than boots on the ground, and in my eyes, if an American is in with our enemies and possibly planning an attack on us(why else would they be there in terrorist training camps), then he/she is fair game in getting a drone shoved up their ass. Women and children are collateral damage in any war, and while I am sorry that innocent people are sometimes killed when a drone strikes, I can't say that I am sorry that we have made inroads into decimating terrorists, and our country is the safer for it. Do I think drones would be used here? Can't answer that one, but I highly doubt it.
The government has been tapping lines and monitoring mail etc etc long before Bush or Obama were even born.The only difference is that now the public knows it is being done.
It's the 'lesser-fo-two-evils" conundrum, isn't it?
Guess the only thing to do is ask WWJD? (Who Wants Jack Daniels)
drive by .... i would love to have a drink but,as i am in a military hospital i have to pass.they have a very dim view of alcohol here.
CIA Drone Strikes in Pakistan - 2004-2013
Total US strikes: 362
Obama strikes: 310
Total reported killed: 2,629-3,461
Civilians reported killed: 475-891
Children reported killed: 176
Total reported injured: 1,267-1,431
US Covert Action in Yemen 2002–2013
Total confirmed US operations (all): 54-64
Total confirmed US drone strikes: 42-52
Possible extra US operations: 135-157
Possible extra US drone strikes: 77-93
Total reported killed (all): 374-1,112
Total civilians killed (all): 72-178
Children killed (all): 27-37
US Covert Action in Somalia 2007–2013
Total US strikes: 10-23
Total US drone strikes: 3-9
Total reported killed: 58-170
Civilians reported killed: 11-57
Children reported killed: 1-3
Ironically while the #US was applauding Obama's line "A decade of war is now ending", another drone strike had just hit #Yemen.
thebureauinvestigates.com
They should have leveled Somalia.
Sept. 11, 2001:
AA Flight 77 taken over by terrorists slams into the Pentagon
Loss of life onboard: 64
Loss of life on the ground: 125
AA Flight 11 taken over by terrorists slams into the north tower of the WTC
Loss of life on board: 92
AA Flight 175 taken over by terrorists slams into the south tower of the WTC
Loss of life on board: 65
Total loss of life in both towers and on the ground: appox. 3,000
UA Flight 93 taken over by terrorists slams into ground in PA
Loss of life on board: 40
Our country was suffering the most horrific attack on our country, and then President Bush was reading a kiddie book.
Peddle your @!$%# somewhere else, toto.
And, afterwards, when President Bush authorized listening to phone calls, were you against it? Since Saddam Hussein made it quite clear he wanted to develop weapons to attack the United States, did you support that invasion and war? You know, because he was a threat.
I'm still trying to find any photos or video of the plane that hit the pentagon. I can't find a one.
The story I heard from Dubya & the Dick was Saddam already HAD weapons of mass destruction...
How many Americans were lives were lost again based on that little lie? How may dead Iraqi's did we snuff out?
Now the neocons want to wear their hearts on their sleeves... Right! LOL
Amazing how ya'll try to rewrite history and think no one will call you on it!
And when obama continues bush's policies, all of sudden its ok (???)
Oh what a lovely war ... just like all the others. But then opportunity is lost when one and all dither in committee.
Once it is big enough to threaten individual liberties like this you know its time to drastically cut the size of government.
Got to call bovine excrement on this post. Not true. You small government people cannot answer this question, Name one small government country that is successful?
Johntho,
This one back when it was small!
Liechtenstein
Mike-1981410
Pre or post Civil War ... careful now.
So from a few million people to one of over 300 million you expect govenment to remain that size? Where exactly do you think you would be without a government?
Got to call bovine excrement on this post. Not true. You small government people cannot answer this question, Name one small government country that is successful?
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-04-02/home/31274249_1_military-bases-bureaucracies-hong-kong
Big government is never successful and always leads to tyranny.
Look to history Johntho and find out how many governments are really successful at all.There have been too many government changes over the centuries to say that any particular government really worked.
Small govt is what made America successful. The nanny state is what will kill her. Anyone that can't see that is deluded or doesn't understand history and math
Why don't you name one big govt nation that is successful.
Simple. Not the United States thats for sure but maybe the government isn't big enough. What part of people in Switzerland are happier then we are don't you understand. You guys want to talk about Greece, but you never want to talk about the Scandinavian Countries, How about Canada? Can you find fault with their economy, dollar for dollar I would buy their dollar over ours, its worth more. The U.S. isn't elite anymore and the conservatives are the reason. The last 30 years have been essentially run by conservatives and look at the mess you made. Look at our numbers against even some of the countries you hate. We are getting our ass beat almost every way. Education, infrastructure, green energy, and a lot of technology things. Medical. we suck hind titty. Why? Conservatives. You see I remember the good times. The 50's when the U.S. was prosperous. There was a middle class and people were happy. Rock and Roll was here to stay. Eisenhower would have been a democrat by today's standards. What is wrong with this country. We have swung to far to the radical right. There is a danger alright but is in letting those radical conservatives, the money take any more from this country.
Wolf, a government that doesn't move forward will die quickly. I fight against Fascism, some fight against communism, but somewhere in between is middle ism. I think I fundamentally disagree with you, I think all governments have made it. A little piece of the last government would have to survive and creep into the next. For instance many of our laws are based on English Law. and English Law probably has root in Roman law. Etc. In other words governments are fundamental to an orderly society. It is what we decide we want out of it. We are split in three sections in this country, there is the radical right, the radical left and the middle and the middle is the biggest part. We need to swing back to the left from where we were in the the 90's or we will fail. All the barnyard bovine excrement aside, its time for the pendulum to swing the other way. And I think it will. Its gone right far enough.
The Scandinavian countries are in a deep crisis. I don't know where you have been the last few years. And countries like Switzerland and Canada have a much higher level of economic freedom than the US. We need more economic freedom and less government.
What do you pretend to know about switzerland? We have metro areas with larger populations and the Texas National Guard could invade them and relieve them of their happinessand their country.
That aside, they have a small govt. So your example is nonsense.
And, uninformed leftist know-nothing
The Republicans took control of the Congress for the first time in 45 years in 1994 and managed to hold both houses for only 12 years. Read a book instead of spouting ignorant talking points such as,
" The last 30 years have been essentially run by conservatives and look at the mess you made"
Our nation is being crushed under the weight of debt instituted by Democratic Party policies. Obamacare, another brainchild of the statists, will further sink us and damage our economy possibly beyond repair.
Canada's govt is not nearly as bloated as ours. And did you imply that the United States has never been a great nation?
Got another example that doesn't make you look foolish?
An American(?) does not have personal liberties if one is a Traitor against our Country.
@ johntho
Monte Carlo
No govt is "successful." Its just that some dont kill the goose that lays the golden eggs-- and dont take too many eggs.
If bush would have suggested this there would have been riots in the streets. No double standard here.
@bob,
Remember the Patriot Act?
Please do some research. This very thing WAS suggested by Bush.
bob,
Dubya STARTED the drone wars ya moron....
Bali, you may be right, and many people did and still do question the Patriot Act. The question here should be, did we learn something from that. If yes, than to question this is a very patriotic act. If the answer is no, we are doomed. Just because Bush did what he did, and passed something that is questionable during a time of great fear in this country, does not mean Obama, or anyone else, can use that as rational for this and not expect close scrutiny.
@jrl,
My point exactly. Please ref my previous posts.
Hey Bob I'm so glad Obozo did away with that Patriot Act aren't you?
Oh Wait, he hasn't ended the Patriot Act has he?
OOPPs I bet your embarrassed huh?
@just,
Please ref my post (#2) above.
You have just embarrassed yourself.
How? Your Hero Obozo has done nothing but continue what your side says they hate.
@just,
How?
First off, if you actually bothered to read my post, I stated that I dislike the Patriot Act. Begun by Bush, continued by Obama.
Second off, your name calling "OBOZO" does you no favors.
Third, you perpetuate the "our side vs your side" argument.
This ain't no game. At the end of the day, we are all Americans.
Didn't Obama renew the Patriot Act? And what about NDAA. Of course, when pushed, no one can find one instance where any American has been abused under the Patriot Act. So, maybe, it really was designed keep us safe.
Instead of the left loons screeching "Bush" perhaps they should stop voting govt intrusion into their lives and start voting Constitutional conservatives into office.
It is HILARIOUS that the Obama Administration is too HAWKISH now for Repub/Tea/FOX.
Oh, please, yes, someone now, please, lets try to argue this whole crap about "They Aren't American Citizens".
It's a perfectly fine argument when we're talking about the Gitmo Detainees and how we can deny them the due process we say they have in The Constitution but when it comes to drones then, oh, no, we're denying due process.
You can't have it both ways.
chucky, it appears he is to hawkish for a fellow democrat. I trust your myopic mind can grasp that.
Hey JRL, my mind grasps that being too Hawkish for a Dem is really not news. Just so you know, the most left of the Democratic Party often feels that Obama is too center. Rush probably didn't 'splain that to you. Do you understand that or should I use smaller words?
@ chucky racist ricardo
What smaller word do you use for 'splain?
The quickest way to forfeit all your civil rights is to harm or attempt to harm America by joining it's enemies.
No, the quickest way to lose all your rights is to support bigger government.
same thing. Big govt IS our main enemy. Just look at all the parts of the Constitution that try to limit what govt can do. Clearly it was written from the assumption that less is best.
Statist Democrats and statist Republicans wanted wars and desire to be subservient to the statist party government overlords who promise gifts from "the government". Now you complain........sickening.
Blah,blah,blah, just gets you used to the fact they are getting ready to deploy drones. You'll fill safer once they are deployed over American air space! Have your papers ready at the boarder. :)
If you place ideology ahead of your morals it is easy to see how you could abandon any sense of moral indignation for an American being murdered by his country without due process.
Morally bankrupt for their Savior BHO.
If an enemy is coming at you with the intent to kill you....are you going to stop and ask him if he is an American?....or if he is, does he need a lawyer?
No....you are going to shoot him.....as well you should.
I'm NOT the Government.
{sheesh}
We are all the government, idiot.
Right, but Stand Your Ground Plumber. You have no problems with shooting a fellow citizen walking on your little plot of land without due process. Please. Find a real cause.
It never ceases to amaze me how the sycophants of the left who support Obama either don't understand the argument or they are so dishonest and morally bankrupt they don't care as long as their lord and savior is doing the killing.
The Obama administration has declared that they can kill anyone they deem a threat without explanation or independent verification. It is that simple no matter what contortions the White House and the drones undergo in an attempt to validate the indefensible.
Had George W. Bush ever declared such power every loony left wing MSM in the nation would be screaming for his impeachment
It is amazing the hypocricy of these libs. I can not believe what I am reading on these posts by you libs. You guys, who argue against waterboarding terrorists are ok with killing U.S. citizens witthout a trial! Ofcourse it acceptable for known foreign terrorists to be tried in the U.S. Remember the terrorist court case they were trying to get approval to have in NY for a known foreign terrorist?? Would you guys be defending killing U.S. citizens if we had a Republican Administration or would you guys by calling for punishment for these actions!! Hmmm. I wonder...
I am for killing terrorist no matter what their nationality.
As far as I'm concerned, we are not fighting a country, we are fighting Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is a global militant Islamist organization and it has many members from different countries... If an American wants to join Al Qaeda, be my guest...just be sure to look up in the sky every once in a while, for you are no longer an American, you are the enemy!
Everything the government touches turns to $hit and the libbernuts want to give the little Hitler wannabe (and all future presidents) permission to execute citizens without due process???? I can hear it now, a bus full of tourists was killed today by America.......oops.
Sure give terrorists a free pass, just hope you are not in the target area when the terrorist strike.
stockpilingbullet in MN,
Didn't you get the new memo from the GOP? They have said that using Hitler in any metaphor is a no no.
BTW just where are you in in our fine state?
Stearns county?
If you have joined a terrorist group and are planning to attack or have attacked the US or any of our embassies or foreign nationals then I have no problem in killing them with whatever means available. You want to wait until the kill your fellow Americans, your family, your friends before the govt takes action. Not me. You turn against this country then your are toast as far as I am concerned. And if you are stupid or cowardly enough to surround yourself with innocent family members than their blood is on your hand. The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist.
Neither do I. Where the problem comes is with the President making the decision about who has "joined a terrorist group and are planning to attack or have attacked the US or any of our embassies or foreign nationals". He's not empowered to do that by the Constitution.
No, I want a court to convict them before they are killed. I don't want the President to be able to serve as judge and jury.
Fine, as long as the courts and not the President get to decide who is "toast".
So convince a court that he's a terrorist.
One cannot simultaneously uphold the oath of office and kill american citizens without trial. This is simple logic. Thus, extrajudicial killing of American Citizens without a trial is a violation of the oath of office and therefore treason. Those of you who suggest that an enemy of the state has given up his rights simply by being a member of a resistance / terrorist group, and is therefore subject to assasination, would subject the president to the same judicial standard of justice. This is the flaw in your logic, because once the president breaks his oath of office he is subject to the laws governing treason.
We cannot allow ourselves to return to rule by oligarchy, too many brave men and women fought to preserve the US. We must adhere to the spirit and letter of the law or we have nothing, for it is the rule of law and equal application of it which is the very foundation of a free society.
Nope. Sorry, I normally am an Obama supporter, but not on this one. I have no problem with terrorists acts against the United States equating to the renunciation of citizenship, but there needs to be a "due process" to determine that and formally withdraw their citizenship based on those acts. Then, let the drones have them, as enemy combatants.
That means: 1) Congress writes the law, not the Department of Justice via a "White Paper." 2) A formal indictment is made by a special Grand Jury, on the basis of a formal prosecution (which may be done through some procedure, in absentia). 3) A public announcement is made removing the person's citizenship and declaring them an "enemy combatant." 4) Hand the execution over to the appropriate Executive Branch agency for implementation.
To allow the Executive Branch the power to be judge, jury and executioner all in one is too much power to put into the hands of a single branch of government. Checks and balances are there for a reason...to prevent the accumulation of too much centralized power in a single governmental body. Without the structural checks and balances and the Bill of Rights, it is very doubtful that the U.S. Constitution would have ever been ratified.
Sorry, Mr. President, but this one is over the top.
Ron Wyden Priorities????????????
10s of thousands of Americans are sacrificed by fire arms and the U.S. Senate Does Nothing.
Is it really about one U.S. Citizen that we are going to hold dear for some valued principle? What principal would that be, as we can stand idly by as we lose one person every 15 minutes to a right to hold life and death at a common weapon.
In war, in peace, in the alleged war on terror, in every war of the future, in a future where it is obvious that the enemy could and will avail themselves of any and all of the same technology we have spent trillions on perfecting.
Where is your outrage, as pundits make hay, while the most powerful legislative body on Earth the U.S, Senate sees only their interests, damming generations to stand wait while the World's wealth is squandered. Is the U.S. Senate perennial conduct and misbehavior worth, the world?
Have an honest opinion, but do not sell that opinion to the highest bidder, have some pride.
Exactly how stupid does the media expect us to be? Really that is worth knowing, because it would have been so deliberately ignorant, of the press and for that matter most of the human punditry to not have known of these implications from the very first time that a drone was used?
Anyone one with mind that has not been bought off by an owner would have known of its potential.
Do you read the insipid, inane, idiotic, drivel you type, before you hit the send button??????
@Boozer,
Do you read the insipid, inane, idiotic, drivel you type, before you hit the send button??????
Do you?
His Royal A$$ Highness Obama , the Great Community Male Genitalia Organ Sucker, don't need no stinkin' reason not to kill you.
@Boozer,
You are sick. Get some help. btw the Secret Service might want to talk to you.
@ Bali Bob
Did you call the White House to send in a strike? Carefull of the collateral damage
Define Terrorist. Killing "terrorist" as we know them to be today is fine. It is the wording and ambiguity in this memo that has every one up in arms. Policies largely rely on precedence to uphold there legality…this is a step too far and needs to be addressed before, based on precedence, it is okay for a liberal administration to deem oh say a Right-winged, Gun loving, "extremist group" a creditable threat or for a Conservative administration Deemed any Non-Judeo-Christian, Abortion loving, "extremist group" as threat to society. The Holocaust did not happen overnight. I do not think Obama is Hitler or our government is tyrannical (yet), but if you think these things could not happen history testifies against you.
Prostrate yourselves before him, ALL Hail Obama , The Great and Powerful A$$ Clown.
You see Boozer, it is not that we worship him, for that would be weird...it is that we respect Obama for his intelligence and political accumen.
Also why we ridicule some of the GOP....it is too easy really....where do I start?....legitimate rapes or somehow justifying torture?
And he is the most powerful man in the free world.....I gave Dubya respect for at least that.....
The guy was a terrorist first and american citizen second. I don't have any qualms with blasting him from this earth.
keep biting on the right vs. left bait, and this is what we get for america - concentration of power and erosion of freedom to make americans more malleable and satisfied with less.
I LOVE the way this discussion started... two pots calling the kettle black. Wonderful stuff! High unintentional comedy...and a great summary of US voters. The government can get away with anything, and we're only going to blame half of them for what they all do.
Morgs74
Undecided? Killing someone without due process. You libs have a conniption fit about people who have been convicted and sentenced to death even with DNA evidence and you have no problems about whacking someone just because you think, just think, they have done something wrong.
#1.1 - Wed Feb 6, 2013 2:21 PM PST
Bali Bob
@Morgs,
You libs...
You who?
Ok.
You Repubs had no problem with detaining or killing people without due process under the Patriot Act.
"If you are a good American, you have nothing to worry about."
Remember?
#1.2 - Wed Feb 6, 2013 2:30 PM PST
IS THIS HILARIOUS OR WHAT?!?!?!
Distraction--------------------------> again<-----------!----------> look over here-A--aa--------? i meant -----------> look over there--aAh---------> or don't loo;k a@ me mee Meee ha, ha ha, they can not see me for what I really Allah-----am ------------> I crawled from beneath a rock, however I'm mostly invisible to most of my fans?----> Egyptian pharaoh BHO, still the best phantom "ever", 4ward.-->...........Distraction?--> yes. ..........What hieroglyphics will we be subjected to next? "stork? boat? scarab? water? wind? fire? tut an k amen?"-----what ever........ barack? his scepter is a question mark? we'll merely wait him out, his decline should prove interesting to watch given he's on the verge of self proclaimed deity status what a maniac {Pharaoh? BHO (;-{0}-----4ward? fool!
gooday
@con,
Egyptian pharaoh BHO
Thought folks like you reckoned Obama was born in Kenya.
@ convenient
The LSD obviously kicked in
How Many Innocent Civilians were killed by B-17's in the great war. He%# even some american pow's were killed in the bombings of Grmny And JPN. what differance is it if you die by a maverick fired from a F-16 our a maverick from a drone? your just as dead. P.S. if your under fire our someone is otherwise plotting to kill you, you don't give a Rat's A## weather he's an American or not.