Lanza fired about 100 shots in 2 minutes, with a Bushmaster Assault Rifle.

In the aftermath of 12/14, America's culture of violence is in focus:
The chief medical examiner has said the ammunition was a type designed to expend its energy in the victim's tissues and stay inside the body to inflict the maximum amount of damage."

"The gunman in the Connecticut shooting rampage was carrying an arsenal of hundreds of rounds of especially deadly ammunition – enough to kill just about every student in the school if given enough time" (Huffington Post)

Life in a permanent war zone must never be America's future.

NOW is the time for Congress to act.

WCA, see Toronto

"On January 16, 2013, the President put forward a specific plan to protect out children and communities by reducing gun violence. The plan combines executive actions and calls for legislative action that would help keep guns out of the wrong hands, ban assault and high-capacity magazines, make our schools safer, and increase access to mental health services." http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/preventing-gun-violence

8 children die every day from guns, and there are 33,000 gun deaths in America every year.
By taking concrete actions in Congress, we'll demonstrate our commitment to justice.

To begin, we will truly honor and dignify the 20 little ones and their protectors whose lives were lost on 12/14 - who we never knew and will never meet.

The only reason why a FEW republicans in the senate agree on this is to try and save there party from getting blown out the next presidential election with the Latino Vote. As long as conservatives have nuts like Hannity, Limbo and Fox News talking down to people and making it seem like they are a bunch of takers instead of makers then they will never earn the majority of votes from Latinos Blacks, Asians.

Mayor Bloomberg said:

"We heard after Columbine that it was too soon to talk about gun laws. We heard it after Virginia Tech. After Tucson and Aurora and Oak Creek. And now we are hearing it again. For every day we wait, 34 more people are murdered with guns."

WCA -

You mean like every Democratic run, major metropolitan city in the United States?

Nice deflection. I am sure the lax gun laws in states like Arizona and Virginia have nothing to do with the availability of guns in Chicago and other major cities. Oh wait, according to mayors and law enforcement officials they do! In fact, an ATF study found that "straw man" purchases and corrupt licensed gun dealers supply a high percentage of the guns used in crimes.

Oh, by the way, what about that Democratic run, major metropolitan city of New York that has decreased their violent crime significantly without arming everyone?

Jason797 - What the heck are you talking about. Don't you understand that your liberal loons aren't talking about the article we just read? You better get on their memo list and stick with their talking points or you will be in big trouble with them. It is pathetic of you to start a conversation about immigration when your friends want to talk about guns!

It's their way or the highway Jason, learn it and live it or else!!!

Feisty, more on truthing...

Deer don't wear armor.

*** On Rubio selling reform to the conservative base: That said, this is an important test for Marco Rubio. He has spent the last several days selling comprehensive immigration to conservatives.

============

I think one might argue there is a difference between talking to people about something v 'selling' them on the idea. Rubio has changed no (conservatives) position on the issue. There is no epiphany happening here. Rubio has future ambitions and needs something to say he's done. Something that is big.

I tweeted this morning in reference to McCain and Immigration. It is a sad day that a Senator openly says that they are doing what they are doing first and foremost for political gain. Republicans are supporting this effort to buy via legislation, the Latino vote. This same group has the never to continuously charge that the President "panders for votes" from this community and that community, but McCain openly gets in front a mic and says we are doing this because the Republican Party has been getting hammered with the Latino vote.

The real question that is begging to be answered...to the GOP...would there be a 'The gang of 8' in the Senate tackling this issue if either Romney had won the WH and/or if Romney had received the % of the Latino vote that the President did?

If the Senate bill on Immigration is a good and fair one, then go for it Mr. President. If the try and and change it, or start to play "games", then introduce your own and run with it.

LaPierre. What an excuse for a human being. His gun craziness is more important to him than a CHILDS LIFE. Disgusting. Shove gun control down his throat. Join the Army LaPierre, then you can run around with all the assault weapons you want and play Cowboy.

the immigration plan will be the problem in processing 11-14 million applications, plus once amnesty is passed many million more will swam across the border.

Homicide rates are up 8% in "extended castle doctrine" or "stand your ground" states because EVERYONE thinks he's a good guy with a gun, and because the mere availability of deadly force makes it a commonly used option in a heated disagreement. In spite of that these Wild West approaches to law and order don't serve as a deterrent at all...all of this is statistically proven. Not only does carrying a gun not deter crime, it doesn't even do a good job of ensuring your own safety.

"So anyway, I'm standing there like Napoleon Bonaparte, with his hand, you know, in his jacket," he recalls. "So I said, 'Young man, I think you need to put your weapon down.' "

That moment of vulnerability gave the other guy just enough time to shoot McKown. The bullet hit his spine, and he found himself unable to aim his own gun.

"I prayed the most un-Christian prayer of my life, which was: 'God, please let me shoot this guy before he kills somebody else.' Because I was sure I was dead," McKown says. "Then he hit me again, again, again. And he spun me like a pinwheel."

http://www.npr.org/2013/01/29/170456129/armed-good-guys-and-the-realities-of-facing-a-gunman

Let's say Dan McKown hadn't hesitated, hadn't tried to warn off the man who nearly killed him. He could have just as easily gotten into a shootout with another "good guy with a gun" even as the "bad guy with a gun" continued on his shooting rampage.

The NRA's vision of nirvana doesn't work...period.

Saxon, the same can be said of deporting 11-14 million people. This isn't about amnesty, Reagan did that ad it didn't work. This is about holding responsible those that cross our borders without the proper papers.

Well said John B. A good gun with a gun and a bad guy with a gun can change with just one squeeze of a trigger.

What is obvious about Washington these days is that law abiding American citizens are on the hook for the solve nothing politicians. Whether the gun debate or immigration, nothing being discussed solves any problem. Immigration is a free pass for illegals that broke our laws long enough to have politically motivated politicians grant them a free ride. They will pass new laws that were only needed because they never enforced the old laws. They will grant citizenship in the hopes they vote Democrat. But they will never secure the border, and they will continue to allow anchor babies that promotes breaking our laws for the free ride on American taxpayers. Obama talks a great game, but talk is cheap and so far he has solved nothing.

In non-immigration news, U.S. Senate today is expected to vote on John Kerry’s nomination to be secretary of state, and he’s a sure bet to win an easy confirmation.

Thank you Senator Kerry for your non-apologetic liberal voice all these years in the Senate. You will be missed.

We here in MA all wish you well on your new journey.

Trash TV

From the article above:

("This immigration bill that everybody's touting on TV is essentially the Bush immigration bill that was beat back in 2007," Limbaugh said yesterday.)

* * *

David Walker

Thanks for your column yesterday and your reference to Morton Downey, Jr. I have done some dabbling into how and why Faux sNewzzzzz came to be the great propaganda behemoth it has become, and from an historical point of view, it's a fascinating subject.

As you know, Morton Downey, Jr. is just one of the stepping stones, and as fate would have it, the reason for why Rush Limbaugh came into existence.

But for all you readers out there who don't know where it all began, you can look as far back as 1950, where a guy by the name of Joe Pyne, started the Trash TV and Shock Radio with a little show called It's Your Nickel.

From there, he created a show called The Joe Pyne Show, 1954, which paved the way a succession of conservative shock-jocks like Bob Grant in 1960, and the the utterly despicable Wally George, The Hot Seat, in 1983. Old Wally has been credited with the dubious distinction as "The Father of Combat TV".

The last interesting tidbit, is how the Australian tabloid turd-blossom Rupert Murdoch wedged his way into American media, by buying the TV and radio rights to the Los Angeles Dodgers baseball team.

As far as my avatar of using Gary Owens from Laugh-In, 1970, I was looking to update my picture for the New Year, and in my continuing journey to work on my writing skills and re-invent my alter-ego and pen name, TomasGrande, it thought it was fun and appropriate.

We now interrupt this program to bring you the following message:

"I find television very educating. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book."
Groucho Marx

Salud

Wait a minute now, the President compromising? Everything I read here from the hard-core republicans claim the President is ME< ME< ME, he doesn't know how to compromise.

Is that just more republican hog-wash?

See, Chicago, Detroit, Philly, Atlanta, Oakland for example.

Let's not forget Phoenix, that super, super, super safe GOP run city where nary a shot has been fired in 10 decades minutes or so.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/25840482/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/injured-phoenix-college-shooting/#.UQffePKrguc

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/2012/07/justin_mcmahan_arrested_for_mu.php

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/story/20710968/2013/01/25/arrest-made-in-double-shooting-over-15-debt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_Shooter Investigators believe the Serial Shooter(s) were responsible for eight murders and at least 29 other shootings in the Phoenix area (some reports put the number as high as 38 incidents)

Rumor has it, poor Jan Brewer was one of the victims of the serial shooter .. but as we all know, bullets don't kill zombies, thus she continues to lead the other zombies of Phoenix.

If you really want a weapon for home defense I suggest a 12 gauge pump action shotgun, just the unmistakable sound of chambering a round should be enough to turn any intruder around. I have accumulated a lot of nice things over the years most of the very valuable items are in a huge safe no two humans could move without equipment, having said that I still don't believe I own anything worth taking a life over. The only way I could squeeze the trigger is if I felt my loved ones were going to harmed, the problem is this, if someone ever broke into my home while we were home, that is the assumption I would have to make. Nobody really gets to plan these things if they happen, but the plan I discussed with the wife is that we would move to the bedroom, lock the door, get down behind the the far side of the bed relative to the door, (the shotgun is under that side of the bed) and if someone breaks through that door, then like I said they would facing a 12 gauge at short range, which for home protection I will take over an assault type rifle or handgun every time. Now here is where old Forrest will sound mean and maybe crazy to some, if they just want my possessions take them I will replace them, if they break through that bedroom door I will end their life, I will make sure of that, I will not be filing charges, going to court, or having civil suits filed against me, or somehow wind up buying a criminal a wheelchair van the way our legal system can work sometimes.

Judging from 99% of the comments from the RWNJ's yesterday and today it isn't TOO obvious they have no idea what is in the reform package!

It's pretty much the same crap they always put in an amnesty package. We all know barely any of it will actually be enforced (kinda like our borders). Which in turn, will just encourage more illegals to cross over. Reagan made a deal with the liberals and no one after him (presidents or congress) ever enforced the deal. By giving amnesty again, it's breaking another part of the deal which was that Reagan's amnesty was the ONLY amnesty to ever happen. Reagan also said that doing amnesty was one of his biggest mistakes.

But, carry one with your ignorant trash talking ginger.

(or, if you are a lefty liberal, at least try to be less miserable)

If only the righty conservatives would, could, should be less Wicked.

RedDevPS

And what is the MAJOR problem in Phoenix????? I'll bet it isn't American citizens using their guns illegally as often as illegal immigrants using theirs.

Now why don't you go and find some reports for Chicago, Detroit, Philly, Atlanta, and Oakland. Please enlighten us on the liberal cities gun activity.

So JH, how about backing your "bet" up with some statistics? If you're right you should be able to prove it.

FR:

This is all Kabuki theater to show that these Republicans aren't in bed with the White House. The best way some Republicans privately believe they have to get more folks on board (or at least to convince some groups not to be overly aggressive AGAINST this plan) is to not look like they are "giving" the president a "win."

More like kindergarten than kabuki. The Republicons act like four-year old brats. President Obama couldn't even get a single Republican he invited to a screening of the movie Lincoln to attend. Which do they hate more? The black president, or the white president from 150 years ago whose policies made it possible for the black man to become president?

I see little Joey still thinks he's funny. Well he is a clown.

Here's some immigration reform for you; deport everyone who comes in here illegally, and reward those who enter this country according to the law. Stop making excuses for, and pardoning people who come in "through the back door."

That's REAL reform!

We all know that these guys are onlytrying to create a new voting block (Hispanics and Latinos) for themselves, by allowing illegals to stay here.

What's more those people take jobs away from people who need them, and they get free medical care, food stamps, even welfare at taxpayer expense.

We are a melting pot, and we welcome immigrants looking for a new life, and new opportunity.

But, they need to do it the right way, and we need to take care of our own people first!

Tomas Grande:

I'll see your Joe Pyne and raise you one George Putnam, a rabid right-winger and alleged "newsman" at KTTV.

AlexM-lotsanumbers:

Admit it. You have no idea what's in the amnesty package, but since when did a lack of facts close a right-wing sewage valve?

As far as border enforcement, I challenge you to show a better record of immigration law enforcement AND deportation than that of the Obama Administration. If I thought credibility meant anything to you, I would suggest that you check on your nonsense about amnesty. There's not a whole hell of a lot of amnesty in the package. The requirements to qualify for "amnesty" are pretty damned stiff.

Inform yourself.

So Kerry is getting confirmed? What's taking so long with Hagel? Is it the fact he puts country before money and fame that is bothering the world government that runs the US? A bit harder to buy him out?

Backhouse's distillation of the N.R.A.'s plan for peaceful communities:

"The solution to a bad guy with an assault rifle is a good guy with an assault rifle.

The solution to a bad guy with a rocket launcher is a good guy with a rocket launcher.

The solution to a bad guy with a nuke is a good guy with a nuke."

Well, actually, the whole 'good-guy-with-a-nuke' idea did keep Soviet tanks far away from the Bay of Biscay from about 1945 up to 1991 or so, but the concept of strategic deterrence and/or mutually assured destruction doesn't work at the neighbourhood level.

Jesus wept, what are these people on? Come to think of it, maybe they should be on drugs- let La Pierre, Nugent, and some of their bloodthirsty, sadistic minions smoke some reefer and see if that doesn't improve their reasoning ability considerably.

It's pretty hard to imagine that it could get any worse.

Well, let's see,

An immigration proposal that sounds like an actual bi-partisan idea has been on the streets for less than 24 hours, and the anti-everything deep thinkers on here are already explaining to the world why it won't work. These are the people who put the baggers and 'wingers in the congress to make sure nothing positive gets done. Luckily, we should only have to put up with them for one more election cycle. Until then, what say we simply ignore them?

This is WHY republicans won't win the White House in the near future:

Steven Benen, The Maddow Blog:

In this clip, at around the 0:44 mark, Cruz notes that the Senate has "two pending nominations, John Kerry and Chuck Hagel." Describing the nominees, Cruz added, "Both of whom are very prominently..."

After pausing for a few moments, the event's moderator said, "Anti-us?" Cruz responded that Kerry and Hagel are "less than ardent fans of the U.S. military."

Perhaps Ted Cruz would benefit from a reminder about the men he's attacking. John Kerry is a decorated war hero who was awarded combat medals including the Silver Star, Bronze Star, and three Purple Hearts. Chuck Hagel is a decorated war hero who was awarded combat medals including the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry, two Purple Hearts, Army Commendation Medal, and the Combat Infantryman Badge.

Cruz, meanwhile, who apparently considers himself an "ardent fan of the U.S. military," has never worn a uniform, except maybe on Halloween.

I have a simple request of chickenhawks: try not to impugn the character of decorated war heroes who've done what you only like to talk about.

The Texas Republican has developed a reputation for delivering "bonkers" speeches, but even for him, Cruz's comments over the weekend were cheap and offensive.

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2013/01/29/16753966-ardent-fans-of-the-us-military?lite

sorry Pat,

many here in Mass wish he would just go away. btw has he paid for those taxes on his $7,000,000 yacht yet?

Zman, it is just not possible to deport 11 million people. It just can't happen and the cost would be enormous, Yours is not a solution, and as a matter of fact most of your post is a down right misconception. Most people here without proper documentation are working people. Free health care is also a misconception as it is paid for by you and I. However the alternative could be to watch a child die, a fellow human suffer. I mean are you that callus that you can ignore an ill person just because they come here illegally? and food stamps and welfare can only be got with with proper paper work, including a social security number.

So, from you guys who wish there were tougher gun laws think it will change the criminals from owning a gun? Give me a break! How's the tough gun laws in Chicago going? Looks like they might set a new record of deaths! And, by whom? Oh, that would be the criminals! It's not the guns, it's the operators of them that are the bad guys.

I don't own a semi auto rifle, but I am concerned about the future of this country and the world.

We will be out of oil soon enough with no other viable prospects to power the world.

Along with that thought, the possibility of our electric grid failing(we have been warned).

The people of the citys will have no choise but to leave their homes and loot the countryside for food.

I'm thinking I may need more than one. Get it?

Did anyone think that he WASN'T going to back this deal to reward illegal aliens breaking the laws of this land? On top of that, our "representative" government gives $155 million in humanitarian aid to Syria!

The White House‎"Here, I want to speak directly to the people of Syria. This new aid will mean more warm clothing for children and medicine for the elderly; flour and wheat for your families and blankets, boots and stoves for those huddled in damaged buildings. It will mean health care for victims of sexual violence and field hospitals for the wounded. Even as we work to end the violence against you, this aid will help address some of the immediate needs you face each day." —President Obama

What about the "immediate needs" of the people in THIS country. If these politicians think that the ACTUAL CITIZENS of this country are just going to bend over and let them have their way on this immigration bill, they should really think long and hard about that. What kind of message does that send. They should close the borders for now, not let the illegal horde flood through them. Dems, take heed. I am not a republican, I am no tea party member nor am I a neocon. I am a democrat, a liberal! And there are plenty more of us who draw the line at letting these criminals be rewarded for their bad behavior. You do what you have to do and we shall do what we have to! You can pass a bill alright but we will elect those who will get rid of it. And get rid of these lawbreakers as well. By ANY means! Oh, BTW You send 155 million dollars to Syria and earmarked how much exactly, was it 50 million dollars for OUR FELLOW AMERICANS who were devastated by superstorm Sandy. How about Syria and every other country that you geniuses in D.C. GIVE money to, take care of their own damn country!!! The citizens, LEGAL AMERICAN CITIZENS of this country are fed up. You don't understand that now, but you will!

White Collar Auto

IN A PERMANENT, NATION-WIDE WAR ZONE?

You mean like every Democratic run, major metropolitan city in the United States?

Of course, you know that many of the guns used in homicides in those cities and others come from Confederate states with lax gun laws that enable straw purchasers to by guns in quantity and then sell them to gang bangers up north and to drug lords down south of the boarder. But you'll continue pretending you don't know.

Why in the hell are these comments about gun control, when the article is about immigration reform, and makes no mention of gun control?

Is there some kind of bug on the forums, or are the mouth-breathers unable to put their petty GC War on the back-burner for a few days to address a different issue that our nation faces?

GOVERNMENT SPONSORED DEPORTATION FOR ALL ILLEGALS

GREYHOUND: One adult From Chicago, IL USA to Nuevo Laredo MX......$129.00

13,000,000 illegals times $129.00 = $1,677,000,000

For under 2 Billion dollars, the problem is solved!!

Look into who owns right wing radio. Clear Channel. Who owns Clear Channel? Bain Capital.

Forrest,

The 12 gauge pump action shotgun sound is menacing, its also has a kick to it. I prefer my Smith & Wesson 357 its small, and I am not intimated by its kick. I thinks its more important to be comfortable with your weapon than the sound it makes. To bad I cant have both.

Admit it. You have no idea what's in the amnesty package

I'll admit that I've read articles across multiple sites and it's the same bs about enforcing the border, back taxes, fines, back of the line, high-skilled graduated workers, more low-skilled workers (like we need those).

, but since when did a lack of facts close a right-wing sewage valve?

I'm an independent you left wing skin bag, get it right.

As far as border enforcement, I challenge you to show a better record of immigration law enforcement AND deportation than that of the Obama Administration.

Yes, he has done a better job, than others in some areas. There is still only an estimated 60% being caught. But then take in to consideration his dream act executive order last year, moving border patrol stations 50+ miles north of the border, having morton tell ICE agents NOT to go after known illegals, etc, etc. He catches more at the border (still not enough) but then stops our agents from enforcing immigration laws within our borders.

If I thought credibility meant anything to you, I would suggest that you check on your nonsense about amnesty. There's not a whole hell of a lot of amnesty in the package. The requirements to qualify for "amnesty" are pretty damned stiff.

Any package that does not punish them for being here illegally and does not force them back to their country of origin is amnesty. Do you honestly think our government is going to make sure they learn english, make sure they pay back taxes, make sure they pay a fine, etc, etc? I see nothing but a @!$%#load of waivers being issued. All this is going to do is dramatically increase our costs for welfare/medicaid. Not only that, but even under reagan's amnesty, a decent percentage of illegals never even came forward.

Inform yourself.

Go @!$%# yourself.

Now that the President has followed President Bush on many security issues such as the Patriot Act, Guantanamo Bay, Drone attacks. On domestic issues the Bush tax cuts have been endorsed by the President for 99.3% of the people in this country and now it is good to see that he is following the Bush immigration initiative that he proposed in 2007.

And what is the MAJOR problem in Phoenix????? I'll bet it isn't American citizens using their guns illegally as often as illegal immigrants using theirs.

By golly JH, I think I need to run out and by a lottery ticket today. Apparently, today is my lucky day; the odds favor me. You see, I randomly selected 4 links to articles on gun violence in Phoenix, and not one of them involves an illegal with a gun. Yet according to you, 99% (assuming that is your statistical definition of "MAJOR") of all gun crimes in Phoenix are committed by illegals. What are the odds of that?

Strict gun laws have done wonders for homicide shooting in Chicago

“We’ve been assuming that when the Baby-Boomer population gets most expensive [to support], that there are going to be [enough] immigrants and their children who are going to be paying into [programs for the elderly], but in the wake of what’s happened in the last five years, we have to reexamine those assumptions.” - Roberto Suro, Professor of Public Policy - University of Southern California - who studies trends in birth rates.

What happened in the last few years is the birth rate has declined more than expected due to the economy. Hispanics think Obama wants to help them. He wants to use them to support the Baby Boomers in their retirement years.

This is the main problem letting people raised in other countries into the US.

Pal,

You need another stint in racist rehab!

On the other hand thank you for displaying your deep insight of everything WRONG with conservatives these days!

Let's see if any of your com padres have the balls to call you out on your crap..?

JH,

You better get on their memo list and stick with their talking points or you will be in big trouble with them. It is pathetic of you to start a conversation about immigration when your friends want to talk about guns!

Awww poor crazy JH, did I hurt your feelings for talking about Hannity and Limbo. JH is another example of someone who doesn't know anything about Politics. All Rant and no substance,

Courtesy (?) of Zman2012, we have this pearl of expository wisdom:

"We all know that these guys are onlytrying to create a new voting block (Hispanics and Latinos) for themselves, by allowing illegals to stay here.

What's more those people take jobs away from people who need them, and they get free medical care, food stamps, even welfare at taxpayer expense."

Zman, take some real, factual, street- level info from a man who's been in construction his whole life, and whose family has some not insubstantial agricultural interests in Ohio, South Dakota, and Florida. The people who have the biggest interest in keeping a large population of undocumented aliens here are the ones who give them jobs- and that means big builders, through subcontractors, and Big Agra.

Hiring illegals means they can pay them lower wages, no sick leave, no workmen's comp when they get injured, and no unemployment when they get laid off. As for taking jobs from Americans: Here in Washington State, we had us a real crisis just a couple of years ago; all the Mexicans split back across the border in anticipation of a big crackdown, and all of a sudden there was nobody left to pick the fruit!

Tens of millions of dollars worth of peaches, apples and pears rotted on the branch. Using convicts was tried in a couple of counties, and they sure-'nough did their best (next best thing to early release for those guys, eh?) but were bringing in maybe 20% of what an experienced picker could do. This is reality; it happened and still does today. Look it up, man!

Allow me to point out that a good picker can earn up to $200.00/ day in peak season. That's better than most construction workers make in this state; the bottom line is that the work is too damn hard for most Americans, and those few who attempted it did pretty poorly.

(Right here is where some Reich-wingers start salivating: "AHA! He mentioned a matter of ethnicity, which PROVES he's a RACIST like ALL Liberals!") Oh, horsefeathers; ain't a question of race, it's a matter of experience and practice. None of those fruit pickers can plumb a high-rise like I can, either.

As for free medical care, food stamps and welfare: Dude, your information is just wrong. It's a fact that almost all proven welfare or other benefit fraud is committed by people who were born here, and should have some 'skin in the game'. The problem isn't greedy immigrants; it's f*****g LAZY AMERICANS!

Lastly, I'd be very interested to know what state you're from and what kind of work (if any!) you do. Should be very illuminating vis-a-vis your attitude about immigrants.

Peace!

GOVERNMENT SPONSORED DEPORTATION FOR ALL ILLEGALS

GREYHOUND: One adult From Chicago, IL USA to Nuevo Laredo MX......$129.00

13,000,000 illegals times $129.00 = $1,677,000,000

For under 2 Billion dollars, the problem is solved!!

Assuming there's ZERO cost involved in tracking and catching them.

Assuming there's ZERO cost involved in the court action required to produce a deportation order.

Assuming there's ZERO cost involved in the detention needed while all this takes place.

Assuming there's ZERO cost of record keeping involved in the entire operation.

Assuming there's ZERO chance people you put on a Greyhound won't just get off at the next stop.

Brilliant idea. *eye roll

Meth and heroine should be illegal too! Why are they so easy to acquire?

Leading from behind, AGAIN! Pandering in the background. All hail Obama. All of this is just a diversion from the economy, David Walker praises Obama's last quarter of 2012. 1.1% growth. Wow David are you easily impressed. Does the slowest ever recovery also excite you? Obama knows he needs a diversion. So look for him and his laser to be on something other than the economy. Just wondering if the 30 Republican Govs, think thier headed for the dustbin also?

Seems as if all the Obama supporters have all the answers, there's one missing.

Would you guys please educate us stupid folks and give us your plan or suggestions on how the collection of these so-called assault rifles, magazines and an array of other weapons will be collected from the criminals? Do you think they will just voluntarily turn them over like us law-abiding citizens?

Thanks.

AlexM-lotsanumbers writes:

"I'm an independent you left wing skin bag, get it right."

Well, of course you're an independent, just like a mouse is a giraffe.

Average police response time to scene of crime: 23 minutes

Average response time from barrel of 357 Magnum to criminal: 1400 feet per second.

Hi Thetotas, I have a 357 snub nose for a pocket gun when I choose to carry (which is seldom), it's not very accurate at long range, but then again if they are at long range then my life is probably not in danger. The idea of the shotgun is home defense, even Mrs. Grump who has never fired a handgun will not miss, people can miss even at close range in a self defense situation with a handgun, it's not like being at the shooting range.

@kkwilson:

The government cannot effectively disarm criminals given our other constitutional rights. The point is not to disarm criminals though, it's to disarm a would be rebellious republic.

But don't worry, criminals will soon be disarmed when our 4th ammendment rights are completely stripped for the safety of our children.

I do hope that all of you that are against Mexicans in the southwest understand that the land once belong to them until the young USA just claimed it as their own. Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, Oklahoma, California, Nevada, all were a part of Mexico so what do you expect to happen?

Texans cry "Remember the Alamo" without realizing that the battle was lost and every man, woman, and child were killed there. Well the Mexicans came back and the businesses welcomed them with open arms but now they cry because they have to pay taxes to keep them. Go figure.

Now with the gun issue...I own many guns and my family have owned guns for generations but shutter to think what might have been if the Hatfields and McCoys had assault rifles with 100 round magazines. One family or the other would not exist today.

Atlanta news cast last evening. Fella comes home and realizes someone's in His house. Sneaks in and heads to His gun safe, then see's the safe is missing. Heads to another room to retrieve a hand gun in a drawer. Opens the drawer and finds that gun gone. Turns around and the intruder is facing Him smiling. This what you're looking for?, intruder asks, showing Him the hand gun. Homeowner nods. Intruder tells Him Its a nice gun. Warns homeowner if He makes a wrong move intruder will shoot Him. Homeowner doesn't make a wrong move and intruder leaves. Intruder takes all 17 guns previously owned by this homeowner/ militiaman. Outraged homeowner/militiaman later relates the story to local TV news.

In my area this kind of thing, generally with a shooting to boot, happens several times a week. Believing themselves to be the ultimate vanguard against tyranny, gun nuts factually, are one of the best and most dependable suppliers of weaponry to criminals.

Jim29, my old friend!

"Anyone with a religion that promotes killing to appease their God needs to be kept out."

Jeepers, I couldn't agree with you more!

Question, though: Where would you suggest we send the tens of millions of Dominionist Christians who believe that they're going to be called as God's footsoldiers in the End Times, and whose pastors are commanding them to stockpile ammo against that (imminent!) day?

I'm betting that Mexico won't take them. Maybe we should start by deporting anybody who owns the "Left Behind" series, as they clearly believe that their God commands them to do violence; but again, what country would be crazy enough to accept a large population of armed-to-the-teeth religious fanatics who are convinced that the path to salvation is to murder as many unbelievers as possible?

Utah's only so big, buddy. Give this one some thought- maybe pray on it, that's the ticket!

The US Secretary of State Historian website is filled with correspondence from Mexico to the US and US to Mexico from 1900-2000 describing how BAD illegal immigration has been for both countries. How illegal aliens from Mexico ruin business deals and both economies. Why would anyone endorse these people who use organize crime and criminals to promote their agenda?

@Mac Forrester:

Just wait until gun profits soar with the increase of the black market! We ain't seen nothing yet..

If the Senate proposal doesn't get passed it is highly unlikely that a more liberal Obama version will pass Perhaps Mr. Obama is finally learning that he needs to let all sides participate in the legislative process, rather than the grandstanding, freeze outs and demonizing he has engaged in the last 4 years.

As for the bill itself, it remains to be seen what is in it to determine its viability.

David Walker - " market efficencies have replaced jobs". How about small buisness keeps getting boned by this president, because for the simple reason they are not unionized. Small buisness not Corporate America hires vastly more workers. This is were the jobs are that are not coming back. Small buisness are cut off from loans. Where is this president with an original thought, like, encouraging banks to raise thier % from a 60% loan on equity to 90% with the government backing the difference. But the business still responsible for the loan. No, this president rather create a dependency instead of helping the backbone of America. SAD!

David Walker

Tomas Grande:

I'll see your Joe Pyne and raise you one George Putnam, a rabid right-winger and alleged "newsman" at KTTV

Thanks for the tip. I'll check it out.

Looks like I should go back to Randolph Hearst and The Spanish American War as well.

Perhaps I'll watch Citizen Kane again.

LOL.

Cheers, Amigo

Jason, I agree that the Repugs will never win the minority vote, but that has never been their intention. The Tea Party solution to the "Latino, black, liberal problem" isn't to win their votes. Never has been, when it's much more efficient to deny them the right to vote at all. You never hear anything about voter fraud until there's a close election when the Repugs stand to lose ground in either congress or face a bitter battle for the White House.

Wonder if any of the proposed new immigration laws apply any new reformation to those north of the border who continually lure those south of the border here for the express purposes of exploiting their poverty and ignorance? If not, these new laws aren't worth a "hill of beans".

Here is the problem with trying to deport millions of illegals, they have children that were born here and by our Constitution they are in fact US citizens, so how do you deport a US citizen? What if tou threaten the parents with deportation and they say fine but I will leave my children here because they would have a better chance at a decent life. Who is going to tear a child from the mothers arms as we deport her, but have no legal basis to deport the children who are in fact US citizens. Will we build orphanages to care for them? You going to put the parents in prison for child abandonment, then they are still here and completely on the government's dime, not to mention you would likely have to build a boatload of prisons. All an illegal with children who are legal by nature of our citizenship laws has to do when faced with deportation is say I will go but my children will stay and then what the hell do you do?

http://nbclatino.com/2013/01/29/obamas-vs-senators-immigration-reform-plan-6-points-on-what-overlaps-what-differs/

Where are the pics of AMERICANS with their signs? or is this solely from the Latino standpoint?! Seriously, what is with the name calling? Are we not all adults here?

Trust me Obama will look long and hard to find a way to blow this up, if not he is slipping. The sad thing is that its Marco Rubio may never get credit for more than half of the frame work is his. I'm glad to see, NBC reporting a statement which is 100% true, by Senator Graham last night on FOX . NBC also said that Obama "does not favor linking legal status to border security." and here is were it will blow up. Obama will have his newly form activist group pounding the war drums of unfair rights to Illegals, who the day they set foot in this country, broke the law. Is it right for Illegals to cut in front of all that came here legally, to wait another 10 years, when people broke the law get taken care of first. Obama has found a cause to start another war in congress, blame the GOP for not caving in yet again. Because that would mean, Obama would have to lead the country in the security and enforcement of our boarders. If this is not done first, you'll have another 11 million coming across, we as Americans should not put up with it any longer. Pass the bill and get to work Mr Obama, it will the first bit of work you've done, in the past 4 years.

Gump 2.0, It's simple. If I broke the law and went to jail, you think the judge gives two @!$%#s about the impact on my family? Tough! I shouldn't have broken the law. A provision says illegals can stay if they have no criminal record, which is a joke because the first thing they did when they crossed the border was break the law. Along with working "off the books" and obtaining fake ID's and SS numbers. All of which would land me in jail in a heartbeat. Repeal the "anchor baby" rule. Sorry kids, your illegal parents broke the law by coming here. Knowing full well of the possible consequences. You can go home with them and thus stay with your family, or stay here. But If you choose to stay here you are on your own. Again, sorry kids, but it's your illegal parents fault.

Couple of things KingFish, Rubio will not get credit nor should he for a plan in which most if not all of the components has been proposed for years. The president cannot pass the bill if that is what you meant he can only sign it or veto it. Lastly, what do you do with children who are US citizens if you deport the parents?

@Forrest,

Are you really asking me to care about some illegal alien lawbreaker's bambino? Those so-called mothers aren't too likely to leave their kid. And if they do,well that just proves my point, does it not? So let's go with your argument and say that the little ankle biter anchor babies are abandoned. So what? It's even easier to round them up and give 'em a one-way bus ride. Once they cross the border, who gives a kitty!

Hey Thetotas, I just thought of something you can have both a shotgun and a handgun they have a handgun about the size of your 357 that shoots 410 gauge shotgun rounds.

Hey Fiesty

Hows things in Chicago, off to a record January in shootings good job! Glad to see that all those Gang Bangers are following the Law!

Look for Obama to find a way to strip out enforcement and the guest worker provisions since he has no interest in border security and the guest worker provision is opposed by the unions. That will peel off Republican support and the measure would fail - giving Obama what he really wants - a divisive issue for the mid-term elections.

TNSEVOL

Nice deflection. I am sure the lax gun laws in states like Arizona and Virginia have nothing to do with the availability of guns in Chicago and other major cities. Oh wait, according to mayors and law enforcement officials they do! In fact, an ATF study found that "straw man" purchases and corrupt licensed gun dealers supply a high percentage of the guns used in crimes.

Yeah, ok. Now why don't you explain why that matters?? Tough gun laws don't work because there are several million guns out there now and no one is suggesting taking any of them away. Where the guns come from don't change the FACT that crime there is ut of control despite the worthless gun laws.

Oh, by the way, what about that Democratic run, major metropolitan city of New York that has decreased their violent crime significantly without arming everyone?

You mean that police state where they are considering putting body scanners on every corner? I think Franklin said it best- ”Those Who Sacrifice Liberty For Security Deserve Neither.”

If you want to live that way go for it, but I want the right to choose to live another way whether you approve of it or not!

NBC News - intentionally trying to mislead the public by showing photos of LEGAL immigrants when posting a news story about ILLEGAL immigration.

We are not legislating against naturalized, legal citizens.

NBC News - DESPERATE to forward the Obama, liberal narrative. Desperate for a permanent, dependent class of Democrat voters.

AlexM-3929653

Don't you understand that your liberal loons aren't talking about the article we just read?

Much like politicians, the liberals here like to deflect. They know that amnesty will not be in the best interests of this country. But unlike the right, who is calling out their reps in congress, the left will just bury their heads and support their reps blindly like sheep.

So does that mean you are ready to denounce Ronald Reagan and the republican senators who are working with democratic senators on immigration reform? Denounce Ronald Reagan NOW for his unpatriotic act of granting amnesty to illegal aliens and denounce George W. Bush for working on immigration reform...or be labeled a hypocrite.

So Obama has come out and said that securing our borders should not be a part of immigration reform. Well it appears it is already time for Obama to start moving the goalpost. What Obama needs to realize is that he doesn't write the laws, and when they come to his desk he can either sign them or use his veto power. But when you have bipartisan agreement and already Obama is trying to interfere, is he doing it for a good reason or just in the hopes he can blame Republicans if this demand derails the process? Presidents for decades have been promising to secure the borders including Obama, but he never has and it appears he doesn't see the need.

I've come to the conclusion we should allow these gun nuts to hold a show on every corner and allow them dazzle us with their expertise...

At the rate they're going, they will be extinct in no time! lol

Hey Fisty, in your home state of Illinois this is exactly how the gang bangers are handling their own type of gun show in Chicago. Seems to be working well given your logic.

Now if you go out to the suburbs where Gun Shows are held regularly, non of these problems exist. Maybe the problems only exist where a lot of progressives call home.

On this date in 1979 (34 years ago) - 16-year-old Brenda Spencer killed 2 people and wounded 9 others when she opened fire with a .22-caliber hunting rifle at the entrance of Grover Cleveland Elem School because - in her own words... 'I don't like Mondays' .

If we (as a nation) had the same knee-jerk reaction to that shooting that we have had as of late, .22 cal hunting rifles would have been banned a long-long time ago.

Common sense has disappeared!

:O(

Forrest,

The line starts in the back.

Allow the people who are coming here legally to continue to go through the process, anyone here illegally, the line begins in the back. I have several friends that are either in the process to become a citizen or they are now citizens. I have much respect for them, its a long road, but they feel its worth it. Like President Obama said, we must do the right thing, and be fair.

Q22

Look for Obama to find a way to strip out enforcement and the guest worker provisions since he has no interest in border security and the guest worker provision is opposed by the unions. That will peel off Republican support and the measure would fail - giving Obama what he really wants - a divisive issue for the mid-term elections.

More have been deported during his first term than they were in the preceding two terms.

He gets the benefit of playing both sides. Even easier to drive a wedge that way, by saying you want to reform it and at the same time doing record deportation.

handgun about the size of your 357 that shoots 410 gauge shotgun rounds.

doesnt sound the same. then use a flare gun LOL... you tried Forrest.

Here is the problem with trying to deport millions of illegals, they have children that were born here and by our Constitution they are in fact US citizens, so how do you deport a US citizen?

you're right, they are citizens. the children arent deported the parents are. the children would have to go with them or into Foster care. Sorry but this is something that was created because of the 14th amendment. However that doesnt mean if you are illegally here and have kids, you get to stay nor should you. Why do we as a nation have to continue to reward poor choice and negative behavior? So why does Grigori from ALbania have to wait 8 years and go through the proper channels to come here but Paco can just cross a dry river bed with Maria have a kid Tucson and call it good. Kinda fvcked up pathway to citizenship if you ask me

Backhouse Original post

The shooting took place over 9 minutes, not 2 minutes.

To give you an idea how outrageous your comment is, it takes 2 - 3 seconds to point and click the mouse on a computer on a stationary location (according to microsoft). It takes longer with a gun for any real accuracy on a moving target. The math alone says what you claim to be impossible.

Furthermore, The preliminary Autopsy report said "most", not "all", were probably shot with a rifle. The final autopsy report is due out which will clarify what was and wasn't fired from the rifle.

So Sandie and Pete you will change our Constitution to deny citizenship to those born on US soil, are you going to make that retroactive, because then Marco Rubio will be stripped of his senate seat, as he would no longer be a US citizen, and many more Americans will no longer be US citizens, because they were born here of parents who were not yet citizens. Are you going to tell me it will only apply to those that came here illegally, are you going to have 11 million court cases and investigations to determine that. The children born here are US citizens, that is a fact, and we have no legal provision to deport US citizens, and the states do have an obligation to care for indigent or orphaned children. If we find a way to conveniently deport those US citizens than who else can we retroactively revoke citizenship on, and deport. Like I said that is part of why Ronald Reagen was the first President in history to grant amnesty to 11 million illegals. I think the nation would be surprised how many people would leave their children here in hopes of a better life for them, if they had any hope of a decent life where they came from, or if they could afford the time and money to immigrate here legally, they would not take such a desperate measure as becoming illegal aliens. Now be serious and tell me what do you do with millions of innocent children who are legal US citizens. Please don't tell me something silly like we will punish them for the crimes of the parents, we don't do that either, we don't put the children of bank robbers in prison, we have no provision in our Constitution to punish innocent family members for the crimes of another family member, don't be silly now, give us some feasible ideas.

Caesar Augustus-

you're right, they are citizens. the children arent deported the parents are. the children would have to go with them or into Foster care. Sorry but this is something that was created because of the 14th amendment. However that doesnt mean if you are illegally here and have kids, you get to stay nor should you. Why do we as a nation have to continue to reward poor choice and negative behavior? So why does Grigori from ALbania have to wait 8 years and go through the proper channels to come here but Paco can just cross a dry river bed with Maria have a kid Tucson and call it good. Kinda fvcked up pathway to citizenship if you ask me

You know exactly the real reason Grigori doesn't have the leg up: He doesn't have the benefit of a quick, cheap passage across and a quick return home if he's caught. It's going to cost him far more to come over illegally than Paco per your example. He can either do it correctly and expensively or do it illegally and expensively.

The problem I keep seeing with immigration is that it's a bunch of 'zero sum' attitudes. Either we make everyone here a citizen or we send them all home.

My family has gone through the immigration process, and as a result of that, I am far less than tolerant of illegal immigration. I don't believe people should get put to the front of the line for being here illegally. Being here and working on a "pathway to citizenship" while getting to stay here is preferential treatment. On the other hand, we can't just deport every one that we find.

We do need to find some common ground, but I don't think that a better pathway to citizenship for those who are already here is the right idea. I don't want to see immigration be something we largely ignore for 30 years, throw out a blanket solution, and then ignore it for another 30 years.

More have been deported during his first term than they were in the preceding two terms.

No true. More have been deported in his first term compared to Bush's first term but over 8 years Bush has deported more.

Also - as is the case with Obama - he is taking credit for a programs to focus deportations on fugitives and coordinating with local authorities that were initiated by the Bush administration.

Q22

No true. More have been deported in his first term compared to Bush's first term but over 8 years Bush has deported more.

Also - as is the case with Obama - he is taking credit for a programs to focus deportations on fugitives and coordinating with local authorities that were initiated by the Bush administration.

That's an error on my part. It's more per month.

He also is taking credit for that, but then again, we tend to assign blame and credit to the President whether deserving or not.

In this case he gets to sit on both sides of the fence. It's unfortunate that our lack of attention to immigration and border enforcement has to reach critical mass before we decide to do something about it. Apparently "enforce immigration laws we have already written" isn't a solution.

Repojam, you're preaching to the choir. the whole idea of immigration reform is because of our southern neighbor and pandering for votes. Until our Reps want to be adults and tackle issues instead of meaningless platitudes and empty gestures, we will continue to go the way of Rome. Apathy is a poor excuse. Same goes for our Economic situation in the US. Poorest form of reality TV isnt Survivor, its the US government

Caesar Disgustus:

Why do we as a nation have to continue to reward poor choice and negative behavior?

What kind of rewards did you get that makes you act like a jerk? We should definitely stop rewarding your racist rants.

So why does Grigori from ALbania have to wait 8 years and go through the proper channels to come here but Paco can just cross a dry river bed with Maria have a kid Tucson and call it good.

For your information, illegal immigrants come from all over the world. They just nabbed 15 Israelis here in Houston working illegally in a shopping mall.

Most people who come here illegally do so to do hard work that lazy bums like you wouldn't touch.

Are you really asking me to care about some illegal alien lawbreaker's bambino?

Naw. Likewise, I could care less about your brood of @!$%#ty little bastards hanging around your ankles and stuck to the end of your tits. The only thing those sniveling rug-rats have in common is their low-life breeder mommie, and the fact they all have different daddies. Of course, when you factor in that their daddies are mommies brothers, cousins, dad an grandad, we could say they have a lot in common. Perhaps we will all get lucky and the state will remove them from their sorry existence before they start further inbreeding.

@ Thetotas, I don't disagree that the line starts in the back and people should follow the legal procedure, but the fact remains they are here and have children who are US citizens, so again how do you deport a US citizen, we can deport the parents but then are we going to build the orphanages necessary to care for the children if the parents choose for them to stay. Even if the children go, they can return any time they choose in the future because they are in fact US citizens.

@ Caesar, no it is not a 12 gauge, but it shoots a 3 1/2 inch 410 shotgun shell likely lethal at close range if using number 4 shot or larger, and in any event you will not miss and will put a hell of a hurt on a would be attacker, or with number 8 or 9 shot several attackers at once, nice gun for many who do not wish to become marksman at a range, or anybody scared out of their wits when faced with an attacker. It beats the hell out of your flare gun or pepper spray.

DB Akron

To give you an idea how outrageous your comment is, it takes 2 - 3 seconds to point and click the mouse on a computer on a stationary location (according to microsoft). It takes longer with a gun for any real accuracy on a moving target. The math alone says what you claim to be impossible.

Caution: Pathetic Apologist At Work.

It takes less than a second to point and click a mouse. It takes a second at most to repeat fire a semi-automatic weapon.

6 year old kids frozen in fear and cowering as a group take maybe a second or two at max per shredding shot.

What is wrong with you?

____________________

In general, Re Immigration:

The only fault in the proposal so far is the idea that a panel of southwest governors could impede implementation until they deem the boarder secure. It will never be secure enough for freaks like Brewer. Otherwise the plan is reasonable and should be passed.

For those of you that think if they give amnesty to this group that is here now that there will NOT be anymore ILLEGALS coming across so they can be in the next AMNESTY program.

Look back when Reagan had the amnesty program. Then look at all of them that came across just waiting for this one. Then we will get more waiting for the next one. It will NEVER end till we quit giving in to these ILLEGALS.

What about those that have been in LINE waiting to come here LEGALLY, how are they going to feel, like they just got $HIT on by this president. Great job destroy the hopes of others by letting the ILLEGALS have a FREE RIDE.

Repojam

In this case he gets to sit on both sides of the fence. It's unfortunate that our lack of attention to immigration and border enforcement has to reach critical mass before we decide to do something about it. Apparently "enforce immigration laws we have already written" isn't a solution.

The Republicans are the ones demanding that nothing can be done about immigration reform without border security being part of the reform. Obama is making the borders more secure. So that's a problem? No matter what Obama does, he'll get attacked for it by people who just resent the fact he's president.

Houston!

No matter what Obama does, he'll get attacked for it by people who just resent the fact he's president.

Of course the opposite is also true. No matter what Obama does, he'll be defended for it by people who are overjoyed by the fact that he is President. Frankly, these sorts of people are a MUCH bigger problem and yes, Bush had many of these types of supporters also.

Blind faith in a political leader should scare the hell out of anyone as it basically gives them free reign to do whatever they want. I stood next to many libs bitching about Bush but now that Obama is doing some of the same @!$%# most of those people have faded into the background.

The more legal mexicans the more money for the tax and spend lberals to blow!!!!! I'll bet the people who had to work hard and study are real happy that obama and harry ried are just gonna hand out citizenship to a bunch of dumb fu(ks that can't or won't even try to learn english!@!!! They should get citizenship the same way everyone else had to. Work for it, go thru the system. Thier bringing thier lazy ass habits to our country. We already have a bunch of lazy welfare democrats sucking the life out of the country now. They just want more for the votes!!!!!!!!!!! Leave it to the democrats to destroy our country!!!!!!!!!!!!

Backcountry164

Of course the opposite is also true. No matter what Obama does, he'll be defended for it by people who are overjoyed by the fact that he is President.

You don't know what you're talking about. I've seen PLENTY of criticism of Obama from progressives over his tough deportation policies and also over his use of drones. of his drone Being glad that he's president doesn't mean that being glad about everything he does.

Houston!

The Republicans are the ones demanding that nothing can be done about immigration reform without border security being part of the reform. Obama is making the borders more secure. So that's a problem? No matter what Obama does, he'll get attacked for it by people who just resent the fact he's president.

He'll get attacked just for being a Democrat, but that's honestly beside the point from my point of view. I haven't been pleased with how many illegal immigrants we've had over the years regardless of who was President.

The fact that we are at over 10 million illegal immigrants isn't something that personally sits well with me. I don't see a problem with requesting the new way that we handle it include more border security.

If We DONT WAKE UP SOON, Here's the New National Anthem, Of The United Socialist State Of Obama http://youtu.be/le98mWhP_IY

Sorry Gump, Sadly, most of these kids won't become another Marco Rubio. Most of them won't go anywhere except into a life of poverty and dependence. Never learning English, finishing school or getting a decent job. A sad and cruel product of their parents using them only as a way to stay in the country and never giving them encouragement to assimilate or succeed. Like many welfare recipients selfishly do with popping out five or more kids just to collect more benefits and the poor kids wind up out on the street, becoming burdens on society. If most of these people truly wanted a better life for themselves and their kids, they would aim more towards following and respecting the laws we already have set in place, learning English and becoming good Americans instead of demanding a free pass all the time and risking the lives and safety of themselves and their kids. As well as the contempt and wrath of law abiding native born and legally immigrated Americans. It's an emotional subject for sure, but it simply comes down to legal and illegal, right and wrong.

Fixing illegal immigration is easy.

1. Give their employers hefty fines for hiring illegals.

2. Do not give illegals any public or health assistance.

Done!

Well Tim you have no clue about lazy ass habits, I just recently did a project in Mexico, I supervise extremely technical work in automated high speed production plants. I was provided with an all Mexican crew, a driver and an interpreter, the level of technical expertise, and the work ethic of that crew was astounding, not to mention it was the cleanest industrial manufacturing plant I have ever been in bar none. I do what I do all over the United States and now have to travel aboard as well. It honestly pains me to say this but the truth is I have had crews in SC, NC, VA and many other states in the US that could not hold a candle to the crew of young men I worked with and directed at this plant in Mexico, they were superior in by way of technical expertise, mastery of their craft, and their willingness to work hard, to ply their craft. I actually wish I could say otherwise, but the truth is the truth, these were some seriously talented young men.

So does that mean you are ready to denounce Ronald Reagan and the republican senators who are working with democratic senators on immigration reform? Denounce Ronald Reagan NOW for his unpatriotic act of granting amnesty to illegal aliens and denounce George W. Bush for working on immigration reform...or be labeled a hypocrite.

Reagan stepped up and admitted that amnesty was one of the worst mistakes of his presidency.

Bush working on amnesty was one of the MANY reasons I didn't vote for him the second time.

It's one of the many nice things about being an independent. I don't feel the need to fall into party lines.

I just recently did a project in Mexico, I supervise extremely technical work in automated high speed production plants.

There's a big difference between the mexicans in mexico and the illegals up here. I've worked with illegals in plywood mills and in a vineyard. In the plywood mill, they would crawl up on stacks of veneer and sleep the shift away. In the vineyard, their speed was just this side of a full stop.

What amazes me is; Obama suddenly makes immigration a priority and within two weeks the Senate gets bipartisan approval on a bill. Meanwhile, the Harry Reid Senate after 4 years still will not vote or even discuss a budget.

We should definitely stop rewarding your racist rants.

how am I racist? what specific rant where i was racist? Since you wont find it because it doesnt exist you can now go fvck yourself. Goodday

For your information, illegal immigrants come from all over the world. They just nabbed 15 Israelis here in Houston working illegally in a shopping mall.

no shlt, i think you didnt understand my point of how much more of an illegal immigrant problem we have is because of our Southern border. If that makes me racist then guilty as charged, although it makes you fvcking idiot.

FACT O MATTER HOUSTON (WHO HAS MANY PROBLEMS) THE HISPANICS ARE THE BIGGEST IMMIGRATION ISSUE DUE TO LOCATION.

Tired of people like you labeling everyone a racist

While the NRA and the GOP are trying to blame the gun issue on mental health care and the lack of in the USA, they are in the House Gop right now trying to do away with health care for the poor and middle class. Seems odd that they would blame the lack of mental health care for the shootings while on the other hand trying to get rid of peoples health care.

HMMM.......

Well, of course you're an independent, just like a mouse is a giraffe.

I am right of center, but I do not align with the republican party. Not really sure why I'm trying to explain personal choice to an individual with a single digit IQ.

Go chew your cud inbred.

There is this assumption that all people entering this country are poor Mexicans and even though they are the majority of the problem they are not the whole story. I live in South Florida and I have a Colombian wife who entered here legally but there are many people who come from countries to attend University here, graduate and want to start businesses but are not able to. These people take no money from the government and actually add to the economy but they have no way of staying.

If you look at the situation in Venezuela due to it now being a socialist country people with money cannot return and want to move here and be productive but cannot. In Colombia it takes two years to get an appointment with the embassy to begin a visa processes. Educated people from Ireland, France, Spain want to move here and start businesses but cannot, so allowing the educated in will create jobs for Americans as these people have money to invest.

Okay Pete you gave me your very optimistic opinion of what you think these kids will make of themselves and the same can be said of a large percentage of any kid born in America. But you completely sidestepped my question as what do you propose to do about your wish to deport the parents, and then what do you do with the children who are US citizens. By the way have you ever been to a border town in TX, I have and everywhere I went from the hotel to the restaurants to the drugstore, to the K-Mart, they were staffed with teenage kids (and older) obviously of Mexican heritage who spoke both English and Spanish fluently, and were neat, clean, helpful, bright, and courteous while they earned their money. I will tell you something else I liked, I did not see a single one who had a bunch of goofy tattoos or looked liked they fell in my tackle box with those even more goofy piercings. I am much more optimistic about their future because I have seen them in real life not just what some may see on the news about gangs in LA. They are American kids Pete, they have all the same potential any American kid has and from what I have seen personally they seem to take much better advantage of it than you give them credit for.

The political battle is not over immigration policy; it is only about who gets to declare victory and spin this into a pitch to latino voters, and that's a fight that could still pull this tenuous alliance apart. Either side could kill it if it looks for a moment like the other guys are going to come out on top.

Democrats have the advantage here, because they can play it either way. If reform dies because of Republican opposition, that solidifies their coalition. If reform goes through, they can twist the knife by bragging about how they got the Republicans to vote for things their base hates. The Republicans have a much narrower path, trying to paint immigration reform as the legacy of Reagan and Bush without ticking off the tea partiers, and laying all the blame for their own inaction and obstruction on the Democrats using the issue politically. It doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, but it's all they've got.

Backhouse

8 children die every day from guns, and there are 33,000 gun deaths in America every year.
By taking concrete actions in Congress, we'll demonstrate our commitment to justice.

3,767 children die every day at the hands of their would-be mothers, and there are 1,375,000 abortions in America every year. By continuing their concrete actions in Washington, we'll demonstrate our commitment to injustice.

Where's the outrage?

And here is the majority of the reasoning behind having an abortion.

Three-fourths of women cite concern for or responsibility to other individuals; three-fourths say they cannot afford a child; three-fourths say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or the ability to care for dependents; and half say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner.

The number of abortions due to rape and incest, are indeed necessary, but they are a clear minority, as they should be.

Next time you think about your right to choose, think about choosing the life of the child, think about choosing the couple who would be happy to take care of your child for you, think about the couple that has infertility issues and is incapable of having their own child, think about the homosexual couples who are incapable of producing their own children but would love to take care of yours!

According to UNICEF...24,000 children die everyday around the world simply because they were born into poverty.

Where's the outrage?

Hispanics accounted for 10% of the 127 million overall votes in 2012, and Obama's 44% margin of victory among Hispanics gave him a 5.6 million vote edge.

Since Obama won overall by only 4.9 million votes, everyone else voted for Romney by about 700,000 votes.

I guess 'pandering' to Hispanics worked pretty well.

What I find humorous is that most of the 'new' provisions in the 'new' immigration bill are the same ones that were included in the 'old' immigration bill passed in 1986 and signed by Reagan.

Since all of those 'old' provisions were merely ignored, but about 3 million illegal immigrants were 'legalized' in 1986, what makes anybody think that the same 'new' provisions will not just be ignored as well, and this time another 12 million illegal immigrants will be 'legalized', and we will go through this process again in another generation, with another 30 million the next time.

Here were some of the provisions in the 'old' law from 1986, and a link;

• - required employers to attest to their employees' immigration status.
• - made it illegal to knowingly hire or recruit unauthorized immigrants.
• - legalized certain seasonal agricultural illegal immigrants.
• - legalized illegal immigrants who entered the United States before January 1, 1982 and had resided there continuously with the penalty of a fine, back taxes due, and admission of guilt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control_Act_of_1986

I will give you this much Roy the Hispanic vote is seriously important, that is why you suddenly see republicans doing a 180 and offering amnesty, it worked for their hero Reagan. As you said I guess 'pandering' to Hispanics worked pretty well. So well the republicans want in on it big time, they are real busy right now trying to figure out a way to make it sound like it is all their idea, again.

Caesar Disgustus:

i think you didnt understand my point of how much more of an illegal immigrant problem we have is because of our Southern border.

I don't think you understand that if it wasn't for the illegal immigrant farm laborers you're ranting against, you wouldn't have enough food to feed your fat face. Every time some state decides to "get tough" on illegals, the immigrant start leaving and the crops rot in the fields. If you're going to rant, then rant at the businesses that hire them.

Yeah Odumbo let them all in-there isn't room in one country for the whole world to live in. Odumbo just made a stupid comment on TV-"The Indians were the only ones here that were Americans, the rest of us were brought here." Really, I wasn't brought here, I was born here just as my parents were. When America was born, the people who came here, discovered it, fought for it became the first Americans along with the Indians. From there on out, those who were born here did not come from somewhere else, they came from here. Odumbo doesn't seem to know to much about the history of this country and how it was born-but then again what can you expect from a community organizer.

Repojam

The fact that we are at over 10 million illegal immigrants isn't something that personally sits well with me.

It's not something I lose any sleep over. Once the "illegal immigrant problem" is solved, the prices for food and other things will be significantly higher than they are now, but not nearly as high as if the undocumented immigrants were all rejected at once and most of the crops rotted in the fields with no "illegal immigrants" to pick them for your consumption.

TheDougler960608

3,767 children die every day at the hands of their would-be mothers, and there are 1,375,000 abortions in America every year.

An acorn isn't an oak tree and a fertilized egg isn't a "child." Even the ultraconservative voters of Mississippi overwhelmingly rejected the fast and loose definition of what constitutes a person when they got a chance to vote on it.

Houston!

TheDougler960608

3,767 children die every day at the hands of their would-be mothers, and there are 1,375,000 abortions in America every year.

An acorn isn't an oak tree and a fertilized egg isn't a "child." Even the ultraconservative voters of Mississippi overwhelmingly rejected the fast and loose definition of what constitutes a person when they got a chance to vote on it.

I'll ask this.

If something has a heart beat...is it alive?

I really could careless what voters of Mississippi have to say about anything.

My main point is that abortions happen in huge numbers, yet no one takes issue to it. And it's not because of rape or incest, or even the life of the mother that makes up the majority of the reasons why women have had abortions. People deciding to end a potential life, simply because they can't afford it, isn't exactly a good reason to me to have an abortion.

My secondary point was, when considering an abortion, consider those people who would be happy to take care of that potential life, think about the couples with infertility issues who are incapable of creating their own children, and think about the homosexual couples whom by their nature will never be able to reproduce children of their own.

TomasGrande wrote:

" ...As you know, Morton Downey, Jr. is just one of the stepping stones, and as fate would have it, the reason for why Rush Limbaugh came into existence...."

Thanks for the little bit of history. The story that I had always heard was that Rush Limbaugh "came into existence" when Morton Downey, Jr. had his way with a female water buffalo.

And even though it was assumed to have been "a legitimate rape", as hard as the water buffalo tried she wasn't able to "shut that whole thing down." So, about 10-11 months later Rush "dropped" into this world... right onto his big fat, bloated head!

And given his paternity, Rush was already blustering with divisive polemics as he emerged from the birth canal ( ... and the rumor is that he was already spewing vitriol about "liberal bias" before his head even contacted the ground).

Cheers!

PS. Love the Gary Owens Avatar. It sure brings back fun memories of the 70's, and "Beautiful downtown Burbank."

Houston!

You don't know what you're talking about. I've seen PLENTY of criticism of Obama from progressives over his tough deportation policies and also over his use of drones.

Please point out where I said it was true of ALL those who support him?? Because surly you aren't suggesting that none of them blindly follow his lead?? If so perhaps you could explain why so many of them bitched about GWB but ignore the same things from Obama. His utter lack of transparency being an excellent example. Can't say that I've heard a single progressive complaining about that in the last 4 years.

I was born here just as my parents were.

Another example of an anchor baby. How nice!!

Mr Gump, I too have seen many good people and their kids in the immigrant community. Many are, just like you said. Smart, hard working, courteous etc. Many of them (probably to your surprise) are my good friends. They are the sweetest, nicest people you would ever want to know. But I live near an area that also sees the down side of all of this. A place where sadly, their currently is little, if any hope. Run-down neighborhoods rampant with crime, blight and high unemployment. Many of these people are stuck, with nowhere to go. They came here for a better life and found nothing. They came to same place they left, only with indoor plumbing.

Perhaps I jumped the gun saying they all should be deported, They shouldn't. If that happened, two of my friends who are currently waiting for their paperwork to finish, would probably be going with them. But where do we draw the line? We already have enough of our own stateside born people that we cant take care of without being flooded with more needy people. And yes, a lot of them are in fact poorly educated and needy. (And we sure have enough of our own in that department ) And it must be a terrible place that they left for so many to risk their lives to come here.

You are correct sir, I don't have an answer. Just an opinion (maybe a skewed one ) about a problem that even these overpaid, overblown lawmakers and their new policies still don't know how to fix. We can't fix it, or any of the world's problems here on this forum either. Maybe the world would be a better place if we could. Or maybe it wouldn't.... :(

TheDougler960608

If something has a heart beat...is it alive?

A tadpole has a heartbeat. Is it a person? It's not even a frog.

Backcountry164

His utter lack of transparency being an excellent example. Can't say that I've heard a single progressive complaining about that in the last 4 years.

So, what's Obama covering up that you want to know? He's released his birth certificate.

You sound much more reasonable now Pete, and BTW it is Grump not Gump, yes there are no easy answers. I agree about how terrible it must be to leave your home and go to a place where you do not know anybody, do not speak the language, and have nothing but the hope that somehow it could be better. I think of my grandparents who crossed an ocean and came to strange place with only the thought that it could not be worse than where they were, it is a pretty desperate move. I am only the second generation of my family born here, all four of my grandparents were immigrants. They did not sneak across a land border but I don't know if they all had the right papers and documentation either, one way or the other they were granted entrance, and did in fact make a better life for themselves and added value to the nation. I do not condone entering illegally, but the fact that the kids born here are US citizens, makes mass deportations a tough nut to crack. I will say that giving these people some sort of legal status even if only temporally to give them a chance to gain their citizenship would allow the government to document them give them a valid ID, and possibly a SS number, collect taxes from them, and let them come out from the shadows to have a better chance to gain that better life for themselves and their children. By keeping them in limbo and scared of the government it probably prevents them from becoming the better citizens most of them dream of becoming, and that we wish them to become. There are no easy answers, and we do need to protect our borders, but mass deportation does not seem to be a workable solution either, in any event punishing the children for the actions of the parents is Un-American. Now I will tell you a funny story about my grandfather, on my fathers side, the day he and a friend made their citizenship, they left the courthouse and they were very proud and happy, they went to a saloon to have a celebratory toast, which led to more toasts, which led to the two newly minted Americans directing traffic at a busy city intersection as if they had the authority to so, they spent the rest of the afternoon at the local police station drinking coffee, until they were sober enough to be sent home.

Houston!

TheDougler960608

If something has a heart beat...is it alive?

A tadpole has a heartbeat. Is it a person? It's not even a frog.

So that's your argument? A tadpole isn't a person.

Thanks for clearing that up genius.

TheDougler960608

Thanks for clearing that up genius.

It doesn't take a genius to understand that the presence of a heartbeat is an extremely stupid way to define a "child." Too bad for you if you can't understand that.

I actually don't see the problem with so-called "amnesty." What's wrong with letting more people into our borders??? I mean, we're a nation of @!$%#ing immigrants, for pete's sake. Acting all nationalistic and xenophobic just like our forefathers doesn't help. And please, don't tell me that we are beyond xenophobic. I know of at least two comments on this vine that sound damn near close to xenophobic.

Now, as the son of an immigrant (legal, for your information), I greatly sympathize with the plight of all immigrants, legal or illegal, trying to get into this country. I'd assume all of you would do so, as you are also the descendants of immigrants. And I find it intriguing how many white Americans who oppose "amnesty" and illegal immigrants are direct descendants of illegal immigrants; their European forefathers who came here illegally and invaded the lands of the Native Americans (not being anti-white, truth is I supported the cowboys over the Indians). But either way, immigrants are an integral part of this nation. While I don't entirely agree with the concept that business owners are what we call "job creators," immigrants are more likely to start businesses here in the United States, which boosts the economy. And look at our economic rivals around the world; they are investing heavily in education and innovation (just like we used to do). Now, we cannot entirely make up for the past few decades of under-investment, but the best way we can go forward is expand our HB-1 visa program. If you don't want amnesty and want to deport all 11 million undocumented immigrants in this country, my advice is to go back in history and see how deportations have fared in the past, particularly when Adolf Hitler tried to do that with the Jews in Nazi-Occupied Europe.

Houston!

TheDougler960608

Thanks for clearing that up genius.

It doesn't take a genius to understand that the presence of a heartbeat is an extremely stupid way to define a "child." Too bad for you if you can't understand that.

So if functions that are a fact of life, aren't the basis of life for you....then what is?

I wasn't defining "child" on the presence of a heartbeat, I was defining life as such.

Simply because a being can or can't function autonomously, doesn't make a life. If that's your reference for what makes a life, then a war veteran that had all his limbs taken from him is no longer a life, as he can't function autonomously.

So how do you define life?

Houston!

So, what's Obama covering up that you want to know? He's released his birth certificate.

So liberals and progressives spent 8 years crying and whining about GWB's lack of transparency and now they say nothing even though their guy is far worse. I'm a little surprised that you'd admit that was too much for you to grasp.

I could give a @!$%# about his birth certificate. What I want to know is why he won't tell us who was in the WH during the health care discussions. I want to know why he promised to have that debate live on C-Span but then did it all on AOL's private servers which are exempt from the Freedom of Information Act. No way in hell progressives would have allowed that to go unnoticed or unchallenged under Bush; in fact they'd still be bitching about it today if he had tried.