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Subscribe to RSSImmigration takes center stage… But passage won’t be easy… Obama thanks Hillary Clinton… Rreading the 2016 tea leaves from the interview… Hagel and the outside groups trying to defeat his nomination… Breaking down the Chambliss and Harkin retirements… And McDonnell and Cuccinelli oppose Virginia’s electoral-vote change.
*** Immigration takes center stage: Exactly seven days since President Obama’s inauguration, a series of events this week suggests that immigration has the best shot at being the first big legislative action -- and potential battle -- of 2013 (outside of the budget, of course). Today, a bipartisan group of eight senators (Democrats Chuck Schumer, Dick Durbin, Bob Menendez, and Republicans John McCain, Lindsey Graham, Marco Rubio and Jeff Flake) are laying out four agreed-on principles to achieve comprehensive immigration reform. Also today, at 11:00 am ET, several organizations pushing immigration reform are holding a press conference at the National Press Club to issue a “call to action” on the subject. And tomorrow, Obama heads to Las Vegas to deliver his own remarks on immigration. The bipartisan group of senators, in particular, is a big deal. Indeed, this appears to be the first time that McCain has signed on to a top Obama legislative priority since the presidential first took office. And here are their four principles: 1) create a “tough but fair path to citizenship” for illegal immigrants that’s contingent on border security; 2) reform the system in a way that helps build the economy; 3) establish an effective employment verification program; and 4) reform the system of admitting future workers. Five of the eight senators (Rubio, McCain, Schumer, Durbin, and Menendez) will appear together today in DC at 2:30 pm to officially unveil their agreement; the other three have scheduling conflicts in their home states.
Gary Cameron / Reuters
Senator Marco Rubio, R-Fla., questions Senator John Kerry (Not Pictured) during a Senate Foreign Relations Committee confirmation hearing on Kerry's nomination to be secretary of state, on Capitol Hill in Washington, Jan. 24, 2013.
*** But its passage won’t be easy: On paper, passing a comprehensive immigration reform bill should be more than doable. After all, it’s now in both parties’ interest to do so -- for Democrats, it’s delivering on a campaign promise; for Republicans, it’s to avoid again losing the Latino vote by a 71%-27% margin. But remember this: Nothing is ever easy in Washington. For one thing, the devil is in the details, even with these bipartisan principles. How do you create this “tough but fair path” to citizenship? What’s the punishment for undocumented immigrants? How long do these immigrants have to wait to become citizens (and potential voters)? The other obstacle to passage is the House of Representatives. Does Speaker John Boehner -- once again -- allow legislation that might not have the backing of a majority of his GOP caucus to reach the floor? That said, it was notable that House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan on “Meet the Press” yesterday embraced Rubio’s work on immigration reform. “I support and agree with the principles that he laid out about earned legalization. Making sure that you're not rewarding people for having cut in line, but making sure that we can fix this problem.” Ryan added, “Look, immigration's a good thing.”
*** And selling it Republicans won’t be easy, either: The big challenge, in the short term, is going to be for McCain, Rubio, and Graham to sell this compromise as “not amnesty.” (And that’s exactly what Rubio has been doing in conservative-media circles in the past few weeks.) When you read the bipartisan agreement, there is a lot of detail and promise on this issue, including: making sure these folks pay back taxes and fines, making sure they are in the back of the line behind those folks playing by the rules now, and an agreement that these 11 million undocumented immigrants DON’T get a shot at citizenship until certain border security “metrics” are met. Of course, define “metrics” -- that’s among the detail devils.
*** Obama thanks Hillary: For those of you, like us, who followed every twist and turn during the 2008 presidential race, last night's joint Obama-Hillary Clinton interview on “60 Minutes” was extraordinary. And we understand that the interview was all Obama’s idea -- and it was more about thanking Clinton for being his secretary of state these past four years (and keeping the party united) than about 2016. Here’s a thought exercise: Imagine what Obama’s presidency would have been like had Clinton stayed in the U.S. Senate. During the tough times (health care, the debt-ceiling debate), everyone would have looked for any kind of daylight between the two politicians, and Hillary potentially launching a primary challenge would have been a constant story, even if she had no plans on such a move. But what’s been extraordinary is how loyal Obama and Clinton have been to each other. And this line from Clinton explaining why she accepted Obama’s offer to be secretary of state struck us: “I thought, ‘You know, if the roles had been reversed. And I had ended up winning. I would have desperately wanted him to be in my cabinet. So if I'm saying I would have wanted him to say yes to me, how am I going to justify saying no to my president?’ And it was a great decision, despite my hesitancy about it.”
*** Reading the 2016 tea leaves: Still, the interview did provide some tea leaves to read about 2016. After all, here was the president conducting his first joint media interview with someone other than his wife. It was an affirmation of Clinton’s work, especially after her contentious testimony last week on Capitol Hill. “Well, the main thing is I just wanted to have a chance to publicly say thank you, because I think Hillary will go down as one of the finest secretary of states we've had,” Obama said. It was a reminder that Vice President Joe Biden isn’t the heir apparent, if Clinton decides she wants to run for president four years from now. And lastly, it was evidence that the Democratic Party -- at least right now -- is more united than ever. We were disappointed that so little time was devoted to some of the key foreign policy decisions this tandem made together, including the decision to oust Hosni Mubarak, among other issues.
*** Hagel and the outside groups trying to defeat his nomination: On Thursday at the Senate Armed Services Committee, Chuck Hagel has his confirmation hearing to be Obama’s next defense secretary. And yesterday, the New York Times noted that Hagel’s confirmation battle is the first to be fought in the Super PAC/post-Citizens United era. “The media campaign to scuttle Mr. Hagel’s appointment, unmatched in the annals of modern presidential cabinet appointments, reflects the continuing effects of the Supreme Court’s 2010 Citizens United decision, which loosened campaign finance restrictions and was a major reason for the record spending by outside groups in the 2012 election... While the campaign against Mr. Hagel, a Republican, is not expected to cost more than a few million dollars, it suggests that the operatives running the independent groups and the donors that finance them — many of whom are millionaires and billionaires with ideological drive and business agendas that did not go away after the election — are ready to fight again.”
*** Breaking down the Chambliss and Harkin retirements: In the past 72 hours, two U.S. senators -- Republican Saxby Chambliss of Georgia and Democrat Tom Harkin of Iowa -- announced they wouldn’t be seeking re-election in 2014. That means we now have four retirements (John Kerry, Jay Rockefeller, Chambliss, and Harkin), and other ones potentially in the works (Frank Lautenberg, Tim Johnson, maybe Thad Cochran or Mike Enzi). Politically, perhaps the most significant story we’ll be following after these retirements is to see how the GOP primaries in Georgia and Iowa play out (West Virginia, too, for that matter). Do Republicans coalesce around the more electable candidate, or does the most conservative candidate win? One other thing to watch: Chambliss has the ability to be a wild card on legislation -- his retirement statement criticized both Obama and Congress -- and Harkin might be a little more free to vote on contentious legislation (like gun control) than he would have if running for re-election next year.
*** Obama’s day: Besides all of today’s immigration news, President Obama and Vice President Biden are holding a meeting this morning with police chiefs from around the country -- including from Aurora, CO, Oak Creek, WI, and Newtown, CT -- to discuss reducing gun violence. Also today, at 1:40 pm ET, Obama will welcome the Miami Heat to the White House to celebrate their NBA championship from last season.
*** McDonnell, Cuccinelli oppose electoral-vote change: Lastly, both Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell (R) and GOP gubernatorial candidate Ken Cuccinelli have come out in opposition of the Republican effort in the state to change how Virginia’s electoral votes are awarded. Folks, the effort in Virginia is dead. The question is whether Republicans in other states -- like Pennsylvania and Wisconsin -- are still thinking about pursuing the change. As Wisconsin Gov. Scott Walker told Newsmax, per NBC's Sarah Blackwill: “It's an interesting idea. I haven't committed one way or the other to it. For me, and I think any other state considering this, you should really look at not just the short-term but the long-term implications. Is it better or worse for the electorate?”
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A National Weather Service official is planning to shut down radars on sunny days in the South — and crossing his fingers that no unexpected storms pass through.
This is what happens If Democrats and Republicans cannot end their deficit standoff by March 1, and the cuts will kick in across the country. Sequestration, as the law is known, has sent agencies scrambling to buffer themselves, spending time and money that ultimately may be for naught.
The current temporary (stopgap) federal budget lapses on March 27.
And while the price tag of all this is — well, uncertain — the 2011 fight over the debt limit (August’11) cost taxpayers more than $1.3 billion in additional borrowing costs.
But a true fiscal conservative is against such a government waste.
Who Do I Trust?
In light of Harry Reid's watered down efforts to reform the filibuster, I still trust Harry. And while I'm at it, I trust Oregon Senator Jeff Merkley. Senator Merkley made a valiant effort to end the silent filibuster, but it was his fellow Democratic senators who torpedoed Harry and Jeff. In short, due to 6 or 7 seasoned Democrats, Harry was unable to obtain the votes he needed to get the legislation he wanted. In the end, Senator Merkley found himself in hot water for exposing those Senators who would not support reforming the Senate rules. Additionally, Harry knows his Senate bills will not get through the House and the Senate could flip in 2014. He did not want to set the bar so low that he could not block future legislation.
I do not trust Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell. He said Republicans would decrease the number of times they would invoke the filibuster, but I can't remember the last time ol' Mitch told the truth. For liberals, a golden opportunity to fix a broken Senate was temporarily lost.
I don't trust Republicans to play by the current Electoral College rules. They know that they cannot win elections by debating their conservative positions and so their only chance of regaining power is to rig the process by cheating. A spotlight of lazar intensity is now focused on Virginia, and perhaps their Republican governor and legislature will back down. But there are others states like Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, Indiana, and Michigan that will likely attempt to destroy the notion of winner take all.
When states attempt to rig the Electoral College and this issue finds its way to the Supreme Court, I don't trust the Supreme Court to decide in favor of the existing Electoral College. This is the same Supreme Court that is comprised of a conservative majority who voted in favor of Citizens United. Their pretzel logic isn't any better than that of extreme conservatives. It's just that they speak legalese.
It may be time to abandon the reality that the selection of our President is determined by the outcome of ten swing states. For those who believe in Democracy and the notion of one person one vote, it's time to abandon the Electoral College in favor of electing our President by popular vote.
Yes, I still trust the collective wisdom of the American people who rejected conservative ideology.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It was only last Tuesday that I responded to David Wanker’s ridiculously Hillaryous statement to me: “It gives me great pleasure to know that you will suffer, squirm, bitch, piss, and moan for another four years.”
My response was: “David Wanker: Far from your lame prediction, I’m looking forward to four years of entertainment and laughs as the lefty liberal agenda of King Barry’s first term comes back to bite them on the ass like a piranha swarm.”
I then cited two of my favorites:
Little did I know my laughing at King Barry’s first term imperial stupidity would happen so quickly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last Friday, the D.C Circuit Court of Appeals ruled unanimously that King Barry’s non-recess appointments were illegal and an abuse of power. The three judge panel ruled that King Barry’s “recess” appointments were inconsistent with “not only logic and language, but also constitutional history”. Further, the unanimous decision ridiculed King Barry’s position that he could decide when the Senate is in session or not:
OUCH!!!!
Gee, I thought Barry was a constitutional law professor?? Maybe he just wasn’t a very competent one.
Even more Hillaryous, was that Barry, in trying to expand the Executive’s power to act unilaterally, without the Senate’s advice and consent required by the Constitution, may have actually ended up diminishing Executive power. Two of the three judges ruled that the recess appointment power is limited to ONLY those vacancies that OCCUR when the Senate is in recess. That is a new theory on the limits of the recess appointment power. And, if it’s upheld by the SC, it should be called the “King Barry rule” (LOL!!!)
This potentially means that any actions taken by the NLRB since the illegal and abusive “recess” appointments that require a quorum are null and void. It also potentially means that any actions requiring the approval of CFPB Director Richard Cordray are also null and void.
Even FUNNIER, the weekend WSJ editorial brings up the subject of whether this decision prohibits the “recess” appointees from legally accepting their paychecks.
Hey David Wanker:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You couldn’t make this stuff up if you tried.
Life is good.
Enjoy.
(or, if you are a lefty liberal, at least try to be less miserable.)
Republicans are not sincere about immigration. They need the numbers for a voting bloc. I'm hoping the Republicans are more concerned about undocumented immigrants plight and their contribution to this country instead of numbers.
Like Gov Jindal said it time to stop being the "Party of Stupid"
Oh, almost forgot Blame Obama...
January on track to be best stock market month since 1989.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2090531/Stock-markets-best-start-23-years-bodes-2012.html
The sequestration law, passed in 2011 after that debt-limit fight, was to take effect Jan. 2. It was delayed two months after lawmakers and the White House agreed to raise taxes. The law calls for budget cuts of 8 percent to 10 percent, divided equally between military and domestic spending, saving $1.2 trillion over the next decade.
Time is running out for the two sides to agree on an alternative savings plan. Leaders in both parties said last week they believe the sequester will take effect — at least for a few weeks — while lawmakers wrestle with the expiration of the stopgap budget.
House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan said Sunday that he thinks the cuts are inevitable because Democrats oppose Republican proposals to replace them with alternatives, including reduced spending on financial reform, the health-care law and other programs.
Isn't there a conflict between appeals court circuits? Doesn't that mean this goes to the Supreme Court? Don't bust open the celebratory Sammy's too early.
Be assured a comprehensive Immigration Plan will be passed this year. If the Republicans ever expect to win ANY election on ANY level they better well pass a plan. The days of the "OLD WHITE GOOD OLD BOYS" is over. Come on Republicans, you and our Country can't afford you clowns to go through another 4 years like the last just because you HATE OUR BLACK PRESIDENT. Grow up. Get with the program. Times are changing.
Racist...
Ron, such a thoughtful post. I am quite dismayed by some Senators in the Democratic Party. Perhaps disappointment is a better word. We can't count on them when we need them most to do the right thing.
Sen. McConnell - if he keeps up his crap, he's going to find himself losing an election and he knows it.
Run, Hillary, Run.
Let People decide in Democratic primaries 2016. Have trust in We The People.
.
Now, Hillary, just relax and have fun; discipline Bill when he misbehaves. You know men - they often behave badly.
Thanks for your services - as one of the greatest Secretaries of State.
From the article above:
Amen.
Salud
Good Morning Pat:
A shout-out from you makes my day!
Albanian Idiot,
I've never doubted your lack of intelligence, but after your post this morning I'm beginning to doubt your sanity as well. Maybe you're eating too much carp from the Hudson River. You should remember that what carp eat is. . . well, everyone else's crap.
When states attempt to rig the Electoral College and this issue finds its way to the Supreme Court, I don't trust the Supreme Court to decide in favor of the existing Electoral College.
_________________________________________
Dr. Ron: The SC does not get a say in how states divide up electors because the Constitution is silent on this issue. Each state is allowed to do it whatever way they want.
I thought lefty liberals believed in every vote counting??
In NY the winner takes all methodology disenfranchises millions of voters in upstate NY. Because of the huge Dem population in and around NYC, my vote for President will NEVER count under winner takes all. So, awarding electoral college electors by Congressional District is actually MORE democratic as it provides a chance for currently disenfrachised voters votes to actaully count.
If lefty liberals REALLY believe all votes should count and no one should be disenfranchised, they MUST support this change.
My bet is that lefty liberals REALLY believe only Democrat votes should all count and not be disenfrachised.
Ron, great post. Liberals, at times, can be as quick to blame one person for failing to fix what they wanted fixed as republicans are quick to blame President Obama for all the woes of the country regardless of the evidence which says otherwise. I posted several times Friday that Harry Reid did not have the democratic votes to pass the more comprehensive filibuster reform. The good thing about liberals, including the pundits, is that after they throw their hissy-fits, they actually look at what happened and realize it wasn't so bad after all.
The hell we must support this change! If you really want every vote to count, sh$tcan the electoral college altogether! By the way, Obama could've gotten some of Texas' electoral votes. You don't seem quite as concerned about counting Democratic voters in Texas! What kind of Sammy's goes well with breakfast food?
Ron, I like your post...
I have one minor suggestion - I think most Americans are conservative, respecting time-tested traditions of family and church; Most Americans are pragmatic & common-sensical, another trademark of conservatism. So the problem is not with conservatism itself, the problem has been with the brand of extremist conservatism SOME GOP leaders have practiced in the last few years. The silent majority Republicans have been disappointed by that. But for the future of the American democracy and the 2party system, we can only wish these Congressional Republicans can change direction and put the country's interests first - starting with passing a budget and supporting immigration reform.
Aaahhh, It's Monday morning .... let the liberal CIRCLE JERK begin !
Why would our President continue to ignore $16.5 trillion in national debt and never have a budget passed while he was President ? Perhaps, Obama's intention is to run our country into the ground to bring us to the level of the rest of the world.
Certainly, immigration is a distraction only ... and Obama clings to the distractions instead of facing tough fiscal issues !
This country needs the automatic spending cuts to kick in on March 1st, after all, Republicans now realize that neither Obama or Senate Democrats will cut any spending otherwise. But why have the Senate waste time with the massive debt and deficits that are destroying this country when they can put on a show for illegal immigrants? This country desperately needs new immigration laws to replace those that Washington never enforced. Those laws Washington never enforced have failed, and here we have the Senate putting on a show so the American people can be fooled into thinking they are actually working.
I don't think anyone is arguing that immigration reform is not necessary, the question become what to do with the 11 to 20 million undocumented workers in this country illegally. This is a place that I break away from the democratic party but do not plan to join the party of dumb any time soon. I disagree that these people have "earned" their way here by crossing the border illegally and working in jobs that Americans could have and in many cases undercutting the wages that Americans could receive. You see I am hung up on the word legal.
Lets face it, we all come here from all parts of the world, even native Americans immigrated here, and in to many ways to count it led us to be one of the greatest countries on earth. This potpourri of different cultures and idea's has created quite a stew. We may not of even had a space program if it wasn't for Werner Von Brown, among many other examples. However, immigration laws were put in place to slow down the growth of America for a purpose. We are always in need of Doctors and other scientist, there are many fields that need people to work here. People wait for years for the opportunity to move here. To just cross the border and go to work undermines the laws and fabric of America. After all it is illegal to do so. It breaks our laws and our laws are beyond reasonable, and as with all laws they are put in place to protect us. There is also the national concern for our well being as if it is so easy for people to come here and stay that it just invites terrorist and people of evil intent to come here also.
What to do with the 11 million people already here? Deportation is not feasible as America has allowed a revolving door, send them to their home countries and they are back before you can blink. The next best thing may be a special category with a path to citizenship. However I am still having problem with allowing these people to break our laws and not only get away with it but rewarding them for doing so.
Tough questions, make for tough decisions, and I hope our congress can come up with a viable solution to this problem, and it is a problem.
Joe in Albany-1902257-
We do.
Which is why we are against Republicans rigging the electoral system so that they can push their oppressive, backworld, two-class society agenda.
Leave it to Republicans to steal, cheat, and lie.
Salud
Joe,
Agree Thomas … Congressional districts are not divided up directly dependent on population. They are drawn to give an advantage for the Party in power at the time of the census.
If all districts were about equal in population then I would agree with you. However this is not the case. Like here in Ohio regardless that President Obama won reelection by over 4% of the popular vote
total under the new counting method Romney would have received a sound majority Electoral Votes.
On the issue of voter rights, if Republicans try to the change the current Electoral College rules to rig the election for President of the United States in their favor, there will be hell to pay.
There would be a total revolt of the majority of people taking to the streets, and I promise these cheaters will regret the day they ever opened this can of worms, by stealing the vote of the people.
jim-1455434
On cue, the talking point of "deficits" is handed from Rush and Drudge to the Koolaidpartypoopers.
As if they think anyone in America cares about their cause anymore.
YAWN!
Time to get with the program and get some new material.
Salud
Job1
I wish I shared your optimism. . . .
Republicans are not sincere about immigration. They need the numbers for a voting bloc.
Once again you put your foot in your mouth Beverly. Neither party is sincere about immigration, otherwise we wouldn't have so many illegals. Democrats are the ones that want them for votes, Republicans want them for cheap labor. Illegal immigrants have been the elephant in the room for both parties for decades. Neither party, regardless of presidential party affiliation or which party controls which branch of congress, have upheld the laws of this country in regards to immigration. So now we have millions (11 - 30 depending on which site you read) of uneducated, low income illegal immigrants in our country. Regardless of how much they pay in taxes (sales, income, federal, state, etc) it still does not cover the cost they incur to the tax payers with medical costs, educational costs, incarceration costs, insurance/life costs (driving), tax refunds, sending money home (not spent in our country), the list goes on.
Whether or not I like it, immigration reform will go through, they will be given amnesty (not forced to follow the legal paths currently in our law system). Our welfare costs will sky rocket, medicaid costs will sky rocket, unemployment numbers will go up since they will be counted among the unemployed.
This is not a good thing for our country.
Come on Republicans, you and our Country can't afford you clowns to go through another 4 years like the last just because you HATE OUR BLACK PRESIDENT.
You must be from california (your nickname), so I guess I can't expect much past racism from you. Honestly, just like people that post from chicago here, when you fix the cesspool you live in, then maybe you'll have something of value to say.
I guess you didn't actually read his post. While I don't live as far north as Albany, my vote gets lost in the Dem vote pool of NYC as well.
I have long advocated for this system. It would not require a constitutional amendment like getting rid of electoral college completely would.
Joe in Albany
Little did I know my laughing at King Barry’s first term imperial stupidity would happen so quickly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Last Friday, the D.C Circuit Court of Appeals ruled unanimously that King Barry’s non-recess appointments were illegal and an abuse of power.
Albanian Idiot, You still don't know anything
How did he violate the constitution? Other Presidents have made recess appointments. Do you even know if the Senate was in session?
Due to the extremism on both sides - I'm convinced the ONLY way to truly preserve the country (we are a republic, not a democracy) is to have a strong THIRD party of centrists arise who are willing to work together for the good of all. Only then will we be able to move forward.
This bi-partisan committee is a good start, but it will still have to pander to the extremists on both sides and that's unfortunate.
Beverly, I have a solution for the plight of the ILLEGALS (not undocumented).
DEPORT THEM ALL.
I don't care about their trials and tribulations. They do NOT belong here. They ARE Criminals. Get rid of them and their anchor babies.
Starting with Obozo's aunt and Uncle in MA.
Too hell with so called immigration reform, we need immigration enforcement! I can't believe the liberal fools who endorse this while 77% of this country wants to enforce immigration laws! The degradation of the quality of life in this country will continue to decline if we do not restrict the immigration of ILLEGALS! I am simply advocating the enforcement of current law.
Another family value freak rears its ugly head to represent the party of compassionate *cough* Christians! lol
The hint of racism is a nice touch toots!
Joe from Albany thinks that the votes of the upstaters should count more than the votes from NYC because the upstaters come from less densely populated areas. Maybe he thinks the NYC voters should only get a 3/5 of a vote.
Do you even know if the Senate was in session?
Aww, Bev. Your really don't get it do you. The court ruled that they were in session, therefore they were not recess appointments.
See, the President can't define when Congress is in Session. Only Congress can do that.
Why can't you folks, just once, admit that Obama over reached on this one?
"Everyone's Vote Counts"
Once again, the Republican's supposed "solution" to a problem is worse than the perceived problem. For well over two hundred years we have elected a President based on the electoral college system. Now Republicans are complaining that the system is unfair, because the "winner takes all" approach diminishes the value of individual voters.
So what is their solution? Award electoral votes by congressional district, thereby allowing the preferences of a few voters in sparsely populated districts to override the votes of those who live in densely populated urban areas.
This would mean a vote from someone in a less-populated congressional district would count exponentially more than a vote in an urban area. This is not "making every vote count", it is making some votes count more than others.
This would magnify all of the issues with the electoral college, where votes in certain states count more than others.
I would not neccessarily be opposed to replacing the "winner takes all" system with a method that awards electoral votes based on a percentage basis (i.e. if you win 55% of the state's popular vote you get 55% of the electoral votes) or with a simple popular vote. Either way everyone's vote would count.
The Republican's proposed plan to award votes by electoral votes by congressional district, when the districts vary widely in population, is nothing more than an attempt to make a Republican votes count more than a Democrat's.
Do you know what happens of you try to illegally immigrate to Mexico? You are put in the dungeon. Mexico does not tolerate illegal immigration. And the only reason this country did is because corporations wanted slave labor so they could degrade jobs and dispense with benefits, forcing now bankrupt local govts to provide health, education, and welfare for their slaves.
Why not push for jobs for American citizens, jobs with living wages? Why not have some compassion for all the Americans who are un- and underemployed?
Watching Paul Ryan on MTP yesterday was an interesting experience. On the one hand, he's exactly the sort of person I am conditioned to listen to, a blue-eyed, black haired, educated, professional, but on the other hand, listening to him leaves my mind utterly untouched. I mean, I am used to feeling the neurons sparking, listening to politicians argue their point of view, but in Ryan's case, my brain feels completely dark. It's odd not to feel intellectually stimulated listening to a person who is supposed to be so cerebral.
I don't think Ryan is capable of thinking anything that hasn't been fed to him. It's clear to me he bases his positions on pre-conceived ideas that haven't changed since he was a callow youth. I'm really surprised anyone votes for this guy, he's more like a smart-mouthed teenager, IMO, than a serious politician.
bdjbforfun
Lets start by deporting YOUR family.
Salud
Wow! The party stupid gets even more stupid. These hits just keep coming.
In 1986, President Reagan and the Democrats in Congress agreed to 'comprehensive immigration reform' wherein those illegal immigrants already here could stay and get work permits, in return for the Democrats promise to pass stiff laws making it illegal for any new illegal immigrants to work here (since it was the employment opportunities that attracted the immigrants).
In that Bill, the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 millions of immigrants were 'legalized, with virtually the same provisions as this proposed law.
The problem is that those laws were not enforced, and the result is that we now have 11 million more illegal immigrants (the vast majority of whom are unskilled and poorly educated) who have come here, and now they want the 'same deal'.
What's the point of passing a new 'comprehensive immigration law' if it too will be conveniently ignored and we have to go through this process once again in another generation? What's the incentive for illegal immigrants to actually obey ANY of our immigration laws - indeed, there seems to be an even greater incentive NOT to obey our immigration laws - they get moved ahead of those who actually COMPLY with our laws.
Shameful pandering and rewarding millions for disobeying our laws.
Janine, you must be republican, deporting up to 20 million people is an impossible task. It cannot be done especially with our unsecured borders. The answer may be the employer, put the people in jail that hire them, fine the companies into bankruptcy if necessary. If you could think in even a little bit, which I understand is a tough chore for republicans, the reason they come here is for the opportunity, the same reason your ancestors did. Which by the way some of them may have came here illegally. Who knows. But to call them criminals is a bit harsh. Deporting all of them is not possible. So dry up their chance at the opportunity and maybe they will self-deport and go back to their home countries and come back using the right channels.
Only Republicans that are currently not affected by the growing Latino demographic in this country are going to vote no in this legislation. Even after the data that is out there about the growth of this LEGAL population. But like most conservative views, time itself will catch up to them. Maybe McCain will get primaried by signing up to this but that should not deter Old Man Winter from doing what is wright. This is a problem that needs fixing and even with the record number of deportations by this administration, the illegals in this country are not going to go away. They are not a drag on this country like the conservative media likes to pretend. The truth is that most of these folks, while they cannot get employment legally for the most part, they can however get a tax ID. They use this to create business and become entrepreneurs that hire people. That is the hard really! And all you have to do is research it your self to find that hard truth!!
Sequester. It really is a puzzle that republicans so willingly agreed to the "super committee" and ultimately the sequester in the first place. The sequester was a smart move by President Obama. The super committee, logically, should have been able to reach agreement and in a normal political environment could have. But the sequester default in the agreement should have been so distasteful to republicans that they would have rejected it. The biggest spending cuts in the sequester are to defense, there are no cuts allowed to social security, medicare or medicaid. While there are other hatchet-approach cuts to programs both sides recognize as necessary, it really is a conundrum as to why, in the 2011 GOP-created debt ceiling debacle, that republicans would agree to cut the things they love and not cut the things they absolutely hate. The only explanation is that the GOP knew it had made a huge mistake in taking this country hostage over the debt ceiling, and simply agreed to anything to get themselves out of their self-generated nightmare.
Filibuster Reform. As for the filibuster, I've been a big advocate for reform for years; not in favor of eliminating it but in favor of making the minority work at it. That said, I do not fault democrats who were not supportive of comprehensive reform. The Senate prides itself in tradition often to a fault. We also need to remember that in the past, the filibuster was a rarity, it was reserved for huge ideological debates such as medicare and civil rights. It has taken a couple decades to become the obstructionist weapon now wielded by the minority. Changing the "tradition" will likely be done in baby-steps over time because the senior senators of both parties are reluctant to give up their "weapon" if and when they become the minority. Change to the tradition will always be a battle because the Senate revels in its history and its tradition. That said, I appreciate that democrats are not a one-size fits all party; there are very liberal, moderates, and conservative democrats. The reason the Senate is dysfunctional now is because the GOP has become a party of one-size, the moderates are nearly gone, the true conservatives are gone and it is now a party of far-right, extremist views. So, I will happily take the democrats and their diversity of views on the filibuster, and accept the reforms made as the best they could do because something, in this case, is better than nothing.
Well Amy, obviously people do listen to Representative Ryan because he keeps getting re-elected. Maybe if you listened with an unbiased ear, you would understand his message. And understanding his message and agreeing with it are two different things. But listening to him and I mean listening, analyzing, then making an informed opinion is better than just shutting him out because he's a Republican.
It's a problem with both parties. Neither wants to listen to the other side, just dismiss their ideas without compromise. Something that is sorely missed in this country's government.
"for Republicans, it’s to avoid again losing the Latino vote by a 71%-27% margin."
The Latinos comprised 10% of the votes in 2012 = 12.6 million votes. Obama won that group by a margin of 44% = 5.4 million votes, which was greater than his overall victory margin of 4.9 million votes, so PANDERING TO THE HISPANICS WON HIM THE ELECTION.
People collecting 'free' welfare and medicaid benefits comprised 25% of the votes in 2012 = 31.5 million votes, and Obama won this group by a margin of 12.9 million votes, which was almost 3 times his overall margin of victory of 4.9 million votes, so PANDERING TO THE WELFARE VOTE ALSO WON HIM THE ELECTION.
Unfortunately for the Republicans, the Democrats will ALWAYS 'out-pander' the Republicans when it comes to offering 'something for nothing'.
Of course those responsible Americans who actually work, obey the laws, and pay income taxes are the ones that pay the price.
It will be AWESOME when JOBS for AMERICANS takes center stage. But, as things look now, that will be when hell freezes over...... It is so tragic AMERICANS are the LAST priority in Washington.
And in the meantime, another 11 million undocumented democrats will sneak across the unsecured border. May as well just make Mexico another state.
I think there's a misconception, which I've shared myself at some point, that the Republicans' gerrymandering involves drawing congressional districts so that more people are in Democratic districts than in Republican districts, violating the one-person-one-vote rule. But that's not how it really works.
For simplicity, say that you have a (very tiny) state with a population of 50 voters and five congressional districts with boundaries drawn so that each of the five districts has exactly 10 people. But in 4 of the districts, there are 6 Republican voters and 4 Democrats but in one district ALL the voters are Democrats. So the Republicans win 4 seats in Congress in the 4 districts where they have a majority of 6 Repubs to 4 Dems and the Democrats win only the lone district where all ten voters are Democrats.
The total Republican vote is 4 X 6 = 24 but the Democratic vote in the state is 4 X 4 + 10 = 26. So, despite the Democratic candidates getting a majority of votes in the state 26 to 24, the Republicans win congressional districts in a landslide, getting four seats and the Democrats getting only one.
So the Republican voters get a number of representatives that is way out of proportion to their overall vote but the one-person-one-vote rule isn't violated. That's basically the trick to gerrymandering that can get around the Voting Rights Act. Both parties do it, but only one party has been plotting to make this anti-democratic system the basis for winning the presidency. The Republicans.
So this is where all the liberal democrats are hiding? Maybe they are too ashamed to show that most americans don't agree with their "path to amnesty" program.
Children of Illegals already recieve FREE schooling and free lunches. That much is based upon income. The idea that no federal money is going to cover these is just another smoke and mirrors game put out by democrats. There are thousands of americans who still can't find a job. Do you think it is fair to raise taxes on these Americans for the support of illegal citizens? I don't. Nor do I like the idea that illegals are given special consideration to live an work in the US while those who want to come to this country have to wait in line for years.
I think both parties have sold the american people out, the same way they did with marijuana.
In other words, it's too bothersome to control, so let's make it legal?
Enough of this already...... It's time the bleeding liberals actually listened to the voice of americans.We do not have the funds to feed everybody in the world, and Obama lied to us when he said he would take the burden off the middle class.
Glad to see immigration is going to be addressed. It's about time Congress started fixing the problems they've created. For decades the right railed about our immigration system being broken while refusing to sit down and fix it. Guess they're finished using it as a political football. Maybe. I'll believe it when I see it.
In other news, across the country, Republican governors continue to put in place regressive laws, taxes and fees. Guess they didn't read the CBO report on inequality and lack of mobility. Or are they just ignoring it so that they may give the rich a free ride? Either way their actions are exacerbating a very serious problem. These guys are nothing more than modern day robber barons. Disgusting.
Last but not least. Joe in Albany may claim to wealthy but in reality he is very, very poor.
Chad (lots of numbers) -
Racist? You certainly are.
you have proof? not that i care if Joe is wealthy or not but what i do find interesting is that you lefty's post and think by virtue of that said posting, makes it true.
Since its unlikey you have proof, im going with the your favorite color is green. It sucks to be envious. Carry on you astute liberal freedom fighters.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!
Unhappy,
Schools are primarily supported with property taxes and sales tax which are paid by all illegals. Even if you rent part of your rent goes toward property taxes.
Beth-440386
We are supposed to be both. North Korea and Iran are both republics, too, but they are not democracies.
Jody, again with the "2011 GOP-created debt ceiling debacle", if you would just view both sides of the argument, then you would see it was both sides unyielding attitudes which put us in this mess. And that's the problem. Both Republicans and Democrats are listening to their extreme base and the non-partisan people get caught in the middle. Do you realize that defense cuts will hurt much worst then the recession of 2008? Its a multi-billion dollar cuts, across the board. The job losses alone would be over 1,000,000 and it will affect Democratic California the most as they would lose 148,000 jobs, over 10% of the losses. This issue will have a major impact on the country so please don't label it a "Republican problem"
Both parties need to work together and until people like yourself, who view things as "Republican", other than American problems, the problems will never get solved.
DCIA,
One things for certain, the Idiot from Albany is emotionally bankrupt!
People of wealth do NOT advertise their good fortune...
People who still don't have indoor plumbing on the otherhand...
PS: Good to see you back on the board! ;o)
Johntho... on that I do agree with you too. I think of the people that have been waiting in lines, that came through the process the right way. How would they feel about this IF that is all they had to do was enter the country illegally? The other concern I have is the present corruption that is already going on along the borders and especially in California with the drug cartels. This is truly the slippery slope.
Dennis... I have a question tho. I had an apartment way back in my early days. I had to present ID. How do the Illegals bypass that if it is an apartment/house rental? *just curious*
Paul Ryan laments that Hillary wasn't elected in 2008...
"Look, if we had a Clinton presidency, if we had Erskine Bowles chief-of-staff at the White House, or President of the United States, I think we would have fixed this fiscal mess by now. That's not the kind of presidency we're dealing with right now."
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/01/27/paul_ryan_if_we_had_a_clinton_presidency_we_would_have_fixed_this_fiscal_mess_by_now.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hillary 2016...even her opponents know she's the best choice for the Nation.
Dennis: Schools are already going broke for lack of funds. Property taxes are increasing on the Middle Class. You are being fooled into thinking that the middle class does not pay for illegals.
Why should they be granted the right to jobs when others have just lost theirs? Why should food pantries go bankrupt in order to feed tons of illegal immigrants even when our own families are starving?
This is a question of thinking that nobody pays for illegal immigrants when you know very well that ALL AMERICANS DO in terms of schools and in terms of healthcare.
It's time to wake up.
P.S. If that phone number I gave doesn't work, PLEASE E-MAIL YOUR SENATORS AND SAY "NO AMNESTY".
WCA,
As long as you are willing to admit that there is a ridiculous amount of obstructionism going on for these standard appointments by those on the right and that the past administrations have also done these type of appointments, then I might concede your statement. Where was the outrage before Obama?
Why is it only important now? (and every other issue that we have been dealing with for the last 30 years?
Good morning Feisty! Thanks and it's good to see you too.
You're right. People of means don't usually feel compelled to tell everyone daily how rich they are.
Caesar doesn't understand wealth is measured in many ways. Some could have all the money in
the world and still be bankrupt on many levels.
Joe HAHAHAHAHA
Your math is a poor as your logic. What the Republican vote-rigging scheme would do is essentially replacing the 50-state electoral college with what in effect would be an electoral college consisting of 435 congressional districts. The only difference is that the state boundaries can't be gerrymandered to favor one party over the other, which is what the Republicans are counting on with the congressional district scheme to win the presidency even though they've become so vile that they no longer can win the majority of votes.
Ron:
That was one of those posts further buttresses the position that Republicans cannot be trusted. We have heard that Republicans speak in opposites, i.e., raising revenue means cutting revenue sources. That's a nice way of saying either Republicans are so stupid that they don't understand arithmetic or they are simply liars. Both are true. They are stupid and they lie, which takes me to,
The Albanian idiot and WCA. Once again, the ignore feature has failed, and the Albanian idiot's post has been exposed to light. WCA has never been on ignore. I am still waiting for his answer to how the idiotic, ignorant, and just generally mean union thugs outfoxed all those brilliant white collar guys in the executive suites.
I raise my glass to the Albanian idiot who almost lives Ralph Waldo Emerson's observation: "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." AI has raised the bar on this, his hobgoblin being the obstinate consistency of the stupid.
So perfectly complete is AI's hatred of the President that he is unable to understand that the court decision that challenges recess appointments is not final, although if the court's decision is upheld it serves it's purpose for the President in any case.
First. You may recall how Joe and his ilk were ecstatic when PPACA was being challenged. A few courts said it was unconstitutional. Fast forward to today and we find that those lower courts were overruled by the Supreme Court. ACA is the law of the land. With that in mind, should the administration challenge that decision, the Supreme Court will have the final say. Chief Justice John
Roberts also has a legacy, and I am certain being a Republican toadie is not something for which he wants to be remembered.
Regardless, the second point is this. If this ruling is upheld, or if it has not been challenged, yet another example of Republican obstruction is exposed.
Inasmuch as AI failed miserably on his predictions of who would be victorious and whether ACA would be overruled or repealed, (How about some of that HAHAHAHAHA, Joe?) I will wait to see about that open enrollment and whether it is successful. As an aside, I note that Republican Governors - see Jan Brewer - are beginning to see the wisdom of accepting federal help when it comes to health care.
About that "life is good" thing. Is that because the stock market has continued to rise, is it because it's much higher than it was when Bush had left the country in a shambles? Is it because virtually every measure of success tilts towards that Democrat/Dark Guy?
ROY WILSON-336103
Your hallucinating. I didn't say they don't. What the Democrats haven't done is plot to elect the president by gerrymandering in states they control. That's what the Republicans have been plotting.
BTW: It does look like the scheme is such a blatant assault on democracy that even the tea bag governor in Virginia is not supporting it. Let's hope that the whole conspiracy will collapses in other states as well.
Unhappy-1583758 "So this is where all the liberal democrats are hiding? Maybe they are too ashamed to show that most americans don't agree with their "path to amnesty" program. Children of Illegals already recieve FREE schooling and free lunches."
They also get 'free' Medicaid, WIC, food stamps, and cash aid. In California, the welfare office is crowded with 'Spanish speaking only' women with a small child in tow seeking their 'free benefits' - thanks to their 'anchor baby'.
Typically, their 'spouse' gets paid 'under the table' so they don't have to declare their real income, which might make them ineligible. This often gives them a very good standard of living - better than legal Americans on assistance.
Dan, in other cases in the past, there was indeed a recess. The court has shown that with Obama's appointments there was not. Got it or do I have to type slower?
Amy B:
Best ever portrait and explanation of Paul Ryan (R-Vacuous Village). Personal motto: Success is marrying a rich woman and having a government job."
Ronald Reagan gave amnesty to immigrants who came here illegally; that's all that was done. The problem with Reagan's version of reform is that it did nothing to change the rules, it merely gave a pass to those already here. That was NOT comprehensive immigration reform. That was the mistake, Reagan's plan did not change the system to improve it, nor did he do anything about the border, or the quotas or anything else. We need comprehensive immigration reform. We need a sensible pathway to citizenship for those who are already here--we need to get them into the system. We need the DREAM act passed to allow the children brought here illegally by their parents, who only know this country as their country, to be given legal status and a pathway to citizenship. We need reform that allows more legal "green cards" to those who come here to pick our produce, mow our lawns and clean our homes. Some do have "green cards" but many do not as Mitt Romney inadvertently pointed out during a GOP debate--many illegals are given work, under the table or with a blind eye turned, by the very people who whine about illegals.
Comprehensive immigration reform is what is needed, not some minor tweeks to the sytem such as what Reagan did in the 80's. And don't forget, illegal drugs plays a huge role in our border problems. Our War on Drugs adds to the problem; our lax gun purchasing laws in many of those border states adds to the problem as well. In my view, a road block to reform will be the republicans who aren't too keen on minorities in the first place let alone allowing minorities legal status and pathways to citizenship. After all, the GOP right now redistricts whenever possible to disinfranchise those minorities; now they hope to use their gerry-mandering to disinfranchise the majority vote in national elections. Hard to imagine that many of today's GOP legislators will come to the table to do what they know is necessary because their views have not caught up with the reality. That is not to say that all republicans are anti-minority, but the reality is that too many of those they have elected are less than open-minded. Still, there are republicans who "get" they cannot continue down the anti-everything path and be a viable party in the furture so possibly, they will participate in fixing our immigration system. One can hope.
Anybody else notice that the only things taking center stage for this administartion are moves to solidify liberal party's political strength?
This putz of a president refuses to address the most important issues on the table, namely spending cuts/budget balancing/deficit reduction, two rogue nations threatening the rest of the world with nuclear war and education. Instead he spends his time inviting in ilegal aliens, collecting personal info from voting data bases and rewriting the Bill of Rights.
Houston -
You are correct, all congressional districts are by law supposed to be as close in population as "practicable".
As such, I did not argue my point very eloquently. You did a much better job of detailing the process.
I was attempting to point out that the same concerns about the electoral college diminishing voters influence in heavily Red or Blue states would now be introduced at the state level and magnified in the congressional districts.
A vote in a heavily-Democratic or heavily-Republican congressional district would count less than it does now. Since most of the districts are drawn that way due to gerry-mandering, it dimishes the value of each vote.
Jody, Iowa "Ronald Reagan gave amnesty to immigrants who came here illegally; that's all that was done. The problem with Reagan's version of reform is that it did nothing to change the rules, it merely gave a pass to those already here. That was NOT comprehensive immigration reform"
That's not true - it also contained many of the same provisions that are being touted in the new 'comprehensive immigration reform' - here's a quote from wikipedia on the 1986 Act;
"In brief the act:[1]
Regarding the DC District Court decision on President Obama's recess appointments, what most people (by that I mean conservatives) are ignoring is that Court decision actually invalidated nearly every recess appointment made by every president from both parties but because those presidents aren't in office any longer, they are not mentioned. That Court decision said, without naming Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush or anyone else--is all of our presidents have violated the Constitution with nearly every recess appointment they made. Because it happened that the law suit that gave us the ruling was brought by republicans against President Obama, the decision specifies President Obama's appointments. Personally, that Court decision seems to have reversed over 200 years of precedent--sounds all too familiar, aka Citizens United.
Talk;
Whatever you have to do to make yourself feel justified. I have learned over the last 12 years that people like you will believe any lie that justifies your prejudice and makes you feel better or superior to others. History tells a different narrative than that garbage you choose to believe. You bore me with your condescension and you prove that no matter how fast you type you have nothing but hatred for everything and everyone.
Bev - Congrats. 7 people who might look like Obama's son were killed on Saturday in Chicago and another 6 wounded. I missed it, did he mention anything about it? For Obama to praise Hillary as one of the best Sec. of State, wouldn't she have to accomplish something, instead of ignoring cables? Iran, closer then ever to nuclear weapons capabilty. Eygpt, farther away politically then ever before, Pakistan, a mess. North Korea, more energized then ever. Russia, stoped allowing adoptions. Great job Hillary! You noticed he didn't list her accomplishments.
Greatly entitled on one thing I do disagree with you is the drug cartels. The problem isn't the borders but rather inside our borders. Our laws drug laws and specifically the war on drugs have created the demand you free market people embrace , the problem is us. As one poster who quotes Pogo, "We have met the enemy, and he is us" Do away with the war on drugs specifically Marijuana and you take the profit right out of the black market and the drug cartels dry up and blow away.
I have to laugh at the proposed provision that illegal immigrants 'pay back taxes'.
The reality is that they already file tax returns (no SS# required) with the exact income (no backup) that allows them to file for the maximum Child Care and Earned Income Credits and claim tax refunds of more than $10,000 - often claiming numerous children that actually reside in Mexico or another southern country. They don't have to actually PAY any taxes in order to claim the refunds. Here's a link on the scam;
http://www.infowars.com/millions-of-illegal-immigrants-are-using-a-massive-scam-to-get-bigger-tax-refunds-than-you-are/
Gay marriage has taken center stage, and now immigration. When will we get around to putting the US economy in the forefront?
Chuck in Olathe . . .
You do read the paper don't you? You do realize that the biggest push for immigration reform is coming from the Republicans? The only voting block they hold right now is white men. They have lost the Hispanic/Latino vote and are dearly courting it now as one of your prized leaders states that the party should OWN the Hispanic vote . . .
Janine
Janine, you mean you'd get rid of the ultra right wing, twitchy mouth,
FOX NEWSFAKE NEWS contributor Michelle Malkin and her mouth full of corruption????Absolutely true.....But it is something that most liberals won't admit too. They like to think of all illegals as taxpaying citizens who wouldn't dream of doing something like that except sneaking across the border. They are too stupid to realize that if they are willing to break the law in one way, they are also willing to break the laws in other ways as well.
TNSEVOL
Yes. Like I said, basing electoral votes on congressional districts would effectively replace an electoral college consisting of 50 states with an electoral college consisting of 435 congressional districts, which unlike states have boundaries drawn to favor one political party over another (except in a handful of states where nonpartisan boards draw the boundaries). So the congressional district system is much worse than even the current electoral college system of winner-take-all at the state level.
Talk to the Hand,
For these folks, you're gonna have to
t y p e s l o w e r .
Think about it-3099387
You miss my point, I did listen to Paul Ryan on Sunday's MTP. And I was surprised at how unengaged my imind felt, because he wasn't making his case, using facts, he was selling an ideology, like General Mills pushes Lucky Charms cereal. Anyway you sell it, it's not pink hearts, yellow moons and leprachans coming out of the box, it's just stale marshmellow bits.
Immigration is complex, given that people do have the right to their own views and in different states, different areas of states it's likely valid that folks do believe what they see, and know how they're impacted be illegal immigration. People vassilate on Mexico letting their 'unwanted' through, getting rid of their problems, gangs vs. low paid workers that do what Americans won't, people that are here for a better chance, etc... ..
One thing that doesn't change betwixt arguements is that if illegals are stopped for the most part, others made citizens then apples would be 2$ a piece if the theory follows that Americans won't do the work. One legal, minimum wage must be paid, access to our social system allowed, and all else. No more $25/day to send money home. This is likely why points 2 and 3 came about, because in the end, little is going to change.... only lip service and minimal case citings as to why 'changes' work or don't.
When it comes to government, I'd say in theory it all needs a good colon cleansing but that's not realistic. All are too far gone, and what some see in either 'party' that they believe is in their best interests is so remote, such a pittance of what either supposedly stands for or could do, that the line betwixt the two is barely visual anymore. One in the same.
Having said that, I'm in favor of revamping the electoral college to popular vote as it's very possible for a candidate to win state A and B but when majority votes are tallied, popular votes, the same candidate would win overall in both states A and B and IS the majority candidate. And, of cousrse there will still be a need for voting booths, but face.... most of us have internet, this can save time and money. We digitally sign for our taxes each year, and if going in to see someone that someone does the same... over the internet.
The IRS manages to make certain allllllll file taxes, allllll are checked; such long forms, how bad could it really be to count individual votes, digitally signed on a few checked box pages?
White Collar Auto
Stiff Collar,
As Ron said, you can't trust them. Republicans are obstructionists.
Senator Tom Harkin said...
"Today’s circuit court decision is not only a radical departure from precedent, it ignores the fact that President Obama had no choice but to act,”“Throughout his presidency, Republicans have employed unprecedented partisan delay tactics and filibusters to prevent confirmation of nominees to lead the NLRB, thus crippling the Board’s legal authority to act.” Both parties have have donr it in the past; but the number of President Obama's appointments turned down is unprecedented. Then Again so is a two tern Black President
Why can't you admit Republicans are full of sh!T and obstructionism?
Think About It, you are entitled to your opinion but the fact is this: never in our history has either party used the debt ceiling as a weapon, never has either party used the debt Congress created to hold this country hostage and threaten default IF one of those parties did not get its way. It is a historical fact that which ever party is in the minority, that party has used the debt ceiling as a protest vote; it was symbolic in nature only--a way of protesting the debt without causing economic hard because the leaders of both parties only allowed enough "protest votes" to not interfere with raising the debt ceiling which both sides recognized as necessary to prevent default. The time to discuss spending cuts is when budgets and spending bills are passed, not AFTER the spending has already been approved and the interest on that previously incurred debt grows. It is hypocritical for the GOP to have done that in 2011; no matter how you try to slice and dice it, you cannot defend it because they had no problem raising the debt ceiling for every other president including President Bush seven (7) times and at no time when the GOP also voted to raise it during the Bush 43 years did they once demand spending cuts in exchange for it. I cannot agree with you on this matter and it has nothing to do with my political leanings. Where were these so-called fiscal hawk republicans during the Bush years?
Layton - have you read a news story before this week?
Obama, from the beginning, has been pushing for ilegal aliens to be allowed to stay - with full benifits. He continues with that push as we speak, pushing to allow citizenship. Tell me, are you aware of the damage already caused by this pandering? Do you care about the future damage?
Pandering by the left on this issue is just another example of Barry's penchant for buying votes.
Regarding the DC District Court decision on President Obama's recess appointments, what most people (by that I mean conservatives) are ignoring is that Court decision actually invalidated nearly every recess appointment made by every president from both parties but because those presidents aren't in office any longer, they are not mentioned. That Court decision said, without naming Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush or anyone else--is all of our presidents have violated the Constitution with nearly every recess appointment they made.
_________________________________________
Jody: got any proof to back up that statement??
Past Presidents have made recess appointments only when the Senate declares itself to be in recess, just like the Constitution requires. King Barry is the ONLY President to make "recess" appointments when the Senate declares itself to be in session. The DC court decision called him out on that action and ruled ONLY Barry's "recess" appointments to be illegal and an abuse of executive power.
they get moved ahead of those who actually COMPLY with our laws.
Roy Wilson, where does it say that they will be moved ahead of people who came here through the legal channels? They will be placed behind those already in line.
You bring up some issues about back taxes...
I have to laugh at the proposed provision that illegal immigrants 'pay back taxes'.
So would you rather keep the status quo and merely keep everything as is. Instead wouldn't you rather the system be addressed so that millions of people can be in the spot light and taxed? By the way, I don't appreciate those that cheat on their taxes whether they be legal or undocumented.
To answer your claims about the Reagan bill not being enforced, well big business was allowed to hire with impunity. A part of this bill needs teeth so that corporate robber barons follow the letter when hiring. If not they get fined, publically outed, and if egregious have employeers jailed.
With passage of reform a new legal workforce will be available without the need for them to hire under the table or pay quasi slave wages. You think Big business is up to pay for an honest day's work? I place a large part of the blame on the failure of the 86 plan on those business owners.
bev, left wing libbies are always challenged by the facts - it gets in the way of the libbie mantra.
It's a telling statement about the libbie head-in-the-sand mentality when they/you heap scorn of factual news, stick yor fingers in your ears and keep saying lalalalalalalal - hoping the truth goes away. Any inteligent forward thinking individual will seek facts from a number of sources rather than accept the kool-aid as dispensed, in this case by a liberal left wing media intent on keeping the facts away from the public.
Unhappy-1583758
Actually, they do have to pay sales taxes. If they are given legal status, they would also be paying state and federal income taxes. What conservatives bigots won't admit is that they hate illegal immigrants so much that they'd rather make them suffer than give them legal status that would benefit the country as much as it would benefit the illegal immigrants.
White Collar,
The president did over reach when he made recess appointments when congress was technically in session. Even though they were really were not doing any of the people's work at the time. We all know that this was done as yet another obstructionist tool used by the Republicans. Out of frustration with the obstructionist he tried to go around congress even though it was wrong... but you see Dems do not fault the president for doing this because he was only pushed to have to do this. It was not a choice of his.
So there, I agree with you as a progressive....
Now will you admit that obstruction at all cost, even when the country wanted compromise, or even with things republicans them selves endorsed in the past, was the name of the game? No matter what, the answer was always no??
nice save jackazz however that wasnt your intent. Kinda ironic coming from a liberal talking about understanding wealth.
The President is Ross and the Republicans are Rachel...
"But...We were ON A BREAK!"...;-)
Gad, that whine from WCA constantly wailing that he and his super smart fellow executives have to outsource because union thugs won't let them make stuff. Well, this has got hurt the pride of that super smart white-collar guy.
Oh my, or this little admission,
As usual, the white-white-collar-collar guys at the top have figured out that outsourcing doesn't always make sense. Wonder when they will pass that wisdom on to the lower rung, white-collar workers. If we use the GOP party as an indicator as to how long it takes to figure stuff out, we can safely assume WCA, in about 15 years, will be shouting from the mountain top, INSOURCING - The Best New Thing in the World.
December 2012 ATLANTIC MAGAZINE
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The Insourcing Boom
After years of offshore production, General Electric is moving much of its far-flung appliance-manufacturing operations back home. It is not alone. An exploration of the startling, sustainable, just-getting-started return of industry to the United States.
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By Charles Fishman
Thomas Porostocky
For much of the past decade, General Electric’s storied Appliance Park, in Louisville, Kentucky, appeared less like a monument to American manufacturing prowess than a memorial to it.
The very scale of the place seemed to underscore its irrelevance. Six factory buildings, each one the size of a large suburban shopping mall, line up neatly in a row. The parking lot in front of them measures a mile long and has its own traffic lights, built to control the chaos that once accompanied shift change. But in 2011, Appliance Park employed not even a tenth of the people it did in its heyday. The vast majority of the lot’s spaces were empty; the traffic lights looked forlorn.
In 1951, when General Electric designed the industrial park, the company’s ambition was as big as the place itself; GE didn’t build an appliance factory so much as an appliance city. Five of the six factory buildings were part of the original plan, and early on Appliance Park had a dedicated power plant, its own fire department, and the first computer ever used in a factory. The facility was so large that it got its own ZIP code (40225). It was the headquarters for GE’s appliance division, as well as the place where just about all of the appliances were made.
By 1955, Appliance Park employed 16,000 workers. By the 1960s, the sixth building had been built, the union workforce was turning out 60,000 appliances a week, and the complex was powering the explosion of the U.S. consumer economy.
The arc that followed is familiar. Employment kept rising through the ’60s, but it peaked at 23,000 in 1973, 20 years after the facility first opened. By 1984, Appliance Park had fewer employees than it did in 1955. In the midst of labor battles in the early ’90s, GE’s iconic CEO, Jack Welch, suggested that it would be shuttered by 2003. GE’s current CEO, Jeffrey Immelt, tried to sell the entire appliance business, including Appliance Park, in 2008, but as the economy nosed over, no one would take it. In 2011, the number of time-card employees—the people who make the appliances—bottomed out at 1,863. By then, Appliance Park had been in decline for twice as long as it had been rising.
Yet this year, something curious and hopeful has begun to happen, something that cannot be explained merely by the ebbing of the Great Recession, and with it the cyclical return of recently laid-off workers. On February 10, Appliance Park opened an all-new assembly line in Building 2—largely dormant for 14 years—to make cutting-edge, low-energy water heaters. It was the first new assembly line at Appliance Park in 55 years—and the water heaters it began making had previously been made for GE in a Chinese contract factory.
On March 20, just 39 days later, Appliance Park opened a second new assembly line, this one in Building 5, to make new high-tech French-door refrigerators. The top-end model can sense the size of the container you place beneath its purified-water spigot, and shuts the spigot off automatically when the container is full. These refrigerators are the latest versions of a style that for years has been made in Mexico.
Another assembly line is under construction in Building 3, to make a new stainless-steel dishwasher starting in early 2013. Building 1 is getting an assembly line to make the trendy front-loading washers and matching dryers Americans are enamored of; GE has never before made those in the United States. And Appliance Park already has new plastics-manufacturing facilities to make parts for these appliances, including simple items like the plastic-coated wire racks that go in the dishwashers.
In the midst of this revival, Immelt made a startling assertion. Writing in Harvard Business Review in March, he declared that outsourcing is “quickly becoming mostly outdated as a business model “But if you press them on their savings by sourcing from China for North America, I get stories like ‘Oh, I asked about that six months ago. I had five finance guys working on it, and they couldn’t come up with any savings.’ At the end of the day, they say, ‘If we were doing this for the U.S. market, we should never have gone to China in the first place.’ ”“But if you press them on their savings by sourcing from China for North America, I get stories like ‘Oh, I asked about that six months ago. I had five finance guys working on it, and they couldn’t come up with any savings.’ At the end of the day, they say, ‘If we were doing this for the U.S. market, we should never have gone to China in the first place.’ ”“But if you press them on their savings by sourcing from China for North America, I get stories like ‘Oh, I asked about that six months ago. I had five finance guys working on it, and they couldn’t come up with any savings.’ At the end of the day, they say, ‘If we were doing this for the U.S. market, we should never have gone to China in the first place.’ ”“But if you press them on their savings by sourcing from China for North America, I get stories like ‘Oh, I asked about that six months ago. I had five finance guys working on it, and they couldn’t come up with any savings.’ At the end of the day, they say, ‘If we were doing this for the U.S. market, we should never have gone to China in the first place.’ ”“But if you press them on their savings by sourcing from China for North America, I get stories like ‘Oh, I asked about that six months ago. I had five finance guys working on it, and they couldn’t come up with any savings.’ At the end of the day, they say, ‘If we were doing this for the U.S. market, we should never have gone to China in the first place.’ ”“But if you press them on their savings by sourcing from China for North America, I get stories like ‘Oh, I asked about that six months ago. I had five finance guys working on it, and they couldn’t come up with any savings.’ At the end of the day, they say, ‘If we were doing this for the U.S. market, we should never have gone to China in the first place.’ ”“But if you press them on their savings by sourcing from China for North America, I get stories like ‘Oh, I asked about that six months ago. I had five finance guys working on it, and they couldn’t come up with any savings.’ At the end of the day, they say, ‘If we were doing this for the U.S. market, we should never have gone to China in the first place.’ ”
Do away with the war on drugs specifically Marijuana and you take the profit right out of the black market and the drug cartels dry up and blow away.
Johnto - You bring up some good points in your posts above, however had a question for you. Just as you break from the supposedly "democratic" position about immigration reform (your choice in our big tent party) I have never bought the war lets give up on war on drugs.
While I understand the argument against the the War on Drugs, how do we know that legalizing weed will automatically stop all the violence, killing and narco trafficking? When gangsters ran alcohol during prohibition, ending prohibition didn't stop trafficking. Legalizing weed will only push the narco traffickers and cartels to push more dangerous drugs into our country.
Who knows, if weed is legalized those very same killers and cartels could become legal companies growing, selling and shipping their garbage, even while they use their newly legitimate profits to run coke and heroin. Meanwhile they will be making money while adding to their tally of lives destroyed and dead bodies.
Roy, you are correct but the trouble is Reagan didn't fund any of those things nor was there any effort to enforce the rules because the same people who prefer hiring illegals were allowed to continue their actions because we didn't implement the system to make it difficult for employers to ignore the laws. In addition, those rules existed to varying degrees already so they were a tweek to the sytem. Republicans like to talk about enforcing the laws we have when, too often, they are the ones who chose not to fund the laws on the books. We cannot have good government, smart government or enforcement of the laws of that good and smart government IF WE FAIL to fund it and if we are UNWILLING TO PAY higher taxes to fund it. In other words, we can't have our cake and eat it, too; we can't complain about government not enforcing the existing laws if we are unwilling to give government the money to do it or if our lawmakers are unwilling to transfer some of that huge military budget over to fund domestic programs such as immigration enforcement.
Chuck . . .
The President has been pushing for immigration REFORM. His administration has deported more illiegals than Bush ever did.
Pushing to allow citizenship? From what I've read, he is pushing for reform and those that want to apply for citizenship will get in line with those that are already in the process.
Pandering? Damage? What the he** are you reading? You planning on taking the jobs that many of them have now? The work ethic on most of the illegal immigrants is better and stronger than many in this country. They work. They are paying taxes. They aren't in the basement on their X-boxes.
Janine,
Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. First, the majority of undocumented workers are NOT criminals, as they didn't sneak across the border, but got caught in a system where their visa's expired and there is no way to fix that. That's a civil issue, not a criminal one. Second, so it's okay for you to break the law by denying them due process in deportation hearings, but not for them?
Roy,
What the hell are you talking about over there. There is no need to look at your link because one cannot claim a child on your taxes if that child does not have a social security number. Stop peddling nonsense!
Peek-A-Boo GOP, We need solutions, not witch hunts !!!
Ryan says we can pay down our debt by stop eating !!!
Immigration problems start with Marco Rubio, ship him back to Cuba !!!
I'm seriously sick of the xenophobia in this country. I wrote this the other day, but it looks like I need to post it. AGAIN.
The Constitution, in the bill of rights, never once says "citizen", it says "people". That's why those who vacation here, still get public defenders and trials and can't be thrown in jail for speech or religion...
From Plyler v Doe, a SCOTUS ruling...
I know it takes eight years, on average, to immigrate here legally. I also know it's limited to established professionals and those who have family members as citizens. I know that once here on a green card or visa, it's a highly beaurocratic process to renew them. And that if you don't there is NO pathway to citizenship. I know that 1996 Welfare reform disqualified undocumented people from any means tested assistance. I know that the IRS assigns ITIN numbers for all workers, regardless of immigration status, ensuring they pay taxes, but can't collect SS. I know undocumented people are the least likely to seek medical attention for fear of deportation. I also know it costs $12,500 to deport a single person, if we follow the law. I know that civil rights are afforded to persons and not citizens. I know that the supreme court ruled that theft of SSN numbers, as done by undocumented workers, does not constitute theft per se.
And most of all, I know that being a human is not illegal.
Clearly things are changing in Washington. Conservatives are used to dominance in their messaging, dictating the subjects suitable for debate, the terms of the debate, even the language of the debate.
All that is changing. There is widespread acceptance that revenue will be needed to help achieve fiscal sensibility, military spending is out of control, deregulation can go to damaging extremes, investment of government money is essential to our future, and much more.
Due to all that and changing demographics the Conservative Movement is in a panic and on the attack. The attempt to gerrymander the presidential electoral process is nothing less than a frontal attack on our democracy. It is a means by which a minority...THEIR minority specifically, can rule the majority. People who would suggest such things aren't "real Americans" as they pretend, they are authoritarians at heart.
I would suggest the entire nation could learn from Iowa's redistricting process. It's nonpartisan and very difficult to gerrymander. The wisdom is evident in the results...predominantly Republican or Democratic areas are represented by Republicans or Democrats respectively. The state is close to even in party regulation, the same is true in both the state legislature and our congressional delegation.
That isn't the direction the GOPTP wishes to move. THEIR plan is to dominate the majority with minority opinions. It's to impose an extreme agenda on large numbers of people who disagree. This is as unAmerican as anything could possibly be. It isn't just partisan politics...it's dangerous.
Latest Obama diversionary tactic to avoid dealing with the economy and the deficit. While people suffer Democrats manufacture petty partisan fights.
Oh yeah!!!! Sarah is here to save us all from bickering <sarc off>
And Dan,
What about the post I posted (other than the condescending part for which I apologize) was false and a lie to make me feel better?
And as far as the hatred goes, you know me not and cannot pass judgement. Passionate about truth, yes. Frustration that you liberals are the all knowing all seeing only compassionate ones in the world, not so much.
Unhappy,
Use some common sense. Of the 11 million illegals how many are school-age children? Maybe 3 million or 1 in 4 are of school-age and you want to believe that those 3 million are part of the 81.5 million children or only 3.7% actually are causing a huge financial burden on schools … nice try!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_the_United_States
Unhappy-1583758
Absolutely true.....But it is something that most liberals won't admit too. They like to think of all illegals as taxpaying citizens who wouldn't dream of doing something like that except sneaking across the border. They are too stupid to realize that if they are willing to break the law in one way, they are also willing to break the laws in other ways as well.
FYI: Illegal Immigrants are Paying a Lot More Taxes Than You Think. They pay sales taxes for clothing food, utilities, gas etc. The get food stamps for their children smarty pants.
Here is an except from a few year back. I'm sure if you do some research you'll find that you have no idea what you are talking about.
Illegal immigrants are prohibited from accessing most welfare benefits, including food stamps, non-emergency Medicaid and cash welfare programs. Their children, if born in America, can access welfare programs as citizens. (The Pew Hispanic Center estimates that about 4.5 million American citizens under 18 years old have at least one undocumented parent.)
http://reason.org/news/show/122411.html
What's more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they'll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the "earnings suspense file" — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.
Layton - I'm beginning to suspect you don't read anything, and only get your news from CNN and the networks.
Examples of damage being caused by non-existant immigration law enforcement: In border states hospitals and emergency rooms are being over-run with illegals that have no health care (hence they don't see doctors because they's be turned away, they go to the ER). Schools are pushed beyonds capacity, and there is no fix on the horizon as tax revenues won't increase - again because the problem is ilegals that don't pay taxes. Polio and TB are making a re-appearance after being eradicated from this country because illegals aren't screened at the border.
There are reasons that there are immigration laws, but these are ignored in the rush for Barry and his party to add more free-loaders to the libbie voter lists.
Amy B.-
You've got Ryan pegged perfectly! I will add that the man has NO SOUL and is just an empty vessel waiting for info feed from his trainers. Ryan was slightly less robotic then I remember (from his live performance last year), but still I noted the scripted "outrage" and how he changes the subject if he can't make himself, or his party, shine. Puppetman!
I am most interested in his "Friends that are Democrats", and hope we'll get to find out who they are.
TalktotheHand,
Why would I be here to STOP the bickering. The bickering is what entertains me. Now do you have anything of substance to add in regards to me, or did you just want a little attention?
I especially love how you make a snarky comment, which lacks all substance to a stranger, than go on to tell Dan that he doesn't know you, he shouldn't judge strangers and you're not condescending.
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(That was my forehead hitting the keyboard.)
But being in a country that is not their own is illegal. Why are some democrats willing to bend the laws for some but not for others. And frankly Sarah, you spew the same rhetoric over and over again word for word...... don't you have anything new to add to the discussion. I believe I saw this exact same paragraph before.
Your ideas are outdated, you told us yourself that your relatives came in the 1950's so that would make you 2nd or 3rd generation at least? You are so far removed from what immigrants have to face today in order to get a visa that it is no wonder that you think it only takes 8 years. There should be no path to amnesty for those who wish to break the rules. It would be a good lesson not to reward bad behavior which is what this program is doing. Other parents have stuggled to come to the US for the sake of their children and they did so legally. It is not fair to them to penalize them for going through legal channels. I'm sorry, but this is where you lose the discussion.
And yes lastly, even illegals are human. And they knew very well what they were doing when they broke in.
Sarah 1.101 - #1 Post on this topic.
Very well said. I've tried in the past to bring up the 14th amendment equal protection clause and the "subject to the jursidiction thereof" argument. Never as well as you. Good information to once and for all shut the uninformed up with their derogatory "anchor baby" rants.
Just in case for "deport them all" types - 1st sentence reads. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
Why should anyone follow the laws?
Obama is still refusing to cut anything and is trying to distract the public with guns & immigration. And, like a cat following a laser pointer, the weak-minded American public follows.
Obama....focused like a laser on jobs since 2009.
Dennis: Ever hear the term "anchor baby". Why no one wants to address this is beyond me.
Beverly: Ever hear of illegals taking jobs away from others who also need to collect benefits? I have. I have also heard of taxpayers having to pay more for the cost of their own children because the system has been overrun. The amount withhold in taxes doesn't amount to much. If that were the case, there would be no reason for them to stay in the country. The benefits from freebies are definetly exceeding the cost of what they have to pay in taxes.
Sarah, darling ... if "undocumented" workers (please excuse me while I laugh at your refusal to acknowledge they are here illegally) have entered this country ILLEGALLY ... then, BY DEFINITION they have committed a crime ! People who commit crimes are frequently referred to as ... GASP ! ... wait for it ... CRIMINALS !!!
Now certainly, there is some thought our country needs to review and revise existing immigration laws ! Until that happens, however, we merely have a situation where President Obama ABUSED his power and his oath of office, arbitrarily deciding to use executive orders to IGNORE EXISTING IMMIGRATION LAW !
Don't like existing law ? Fine. Change it ! But change it WITHIN the framework of our existing legal structure !! Until then, EXISTING LAWS should be enforced.
Uh, NO, sneaking over the boarder is illegal (a MISDEMEANOR, by the way) not being here without documents...
http://stopdeportationsnow.blogspot.com/2011/08/is-immigration-law-civil-or-criminal.html
Because people keep posting the same stupid, false arguments. When you provide me with some new information to counter, this won't be applicable anymore. However, until you get more creative in your bigotry and ignorance, you'll have to make do with this. By the way, at least you didn't accuse me of plagerizing MYSELF again. Perhaps you finally learned THAT definition.
They don't wish to break the rules. There are NO rules to break, seeing as there IS no pathway to citizenship. They're quite simply screwed, regardless of what they WISH to do.
No one's punishing them. By allowing a pathway for ALL people, that doesn't mean that we close the pathway for others.
You really think you'd get tired of embarrassing yourself. The term box of rocks comes to mind.
Unhappy,
Tell us … how many anchor babies do we have that are school-aged ?
Since they are citizens we know how many are in our schools … so, do tell
how do you get here without documents?
there is already a pathway. it is closed for those that come over without 'documents'. Cutting to the front of the line shouldnt be rewarded.
you're trying awfully hard to justify illegal behavior.
Sarah, your arguments are weak at best. Make no mistake, there is an BIG difference between illegal and undocumented. Liberals tend to combine the two, which they should not. Undocumented means they went through the appropriate channels but loss the paperwork. Illegal means they never had the paperwork to begin with and committed a crime.
There is a pathway to citizenship and it begins OUTSIDE the US. When are people like you going to get that? Other immigrants seemed to have got that message, which goes to show you how much history do you really know?
Lastly, you should quit with your name-calling. Everytime liberals get cornered they think it is what makes them look smart when it is what really makes them look desperate. ( like a little kid)
You think that those same jobs will be around for other immigrants who come to this country legally? Nope..... they would be all gone, taken up by those who "cut in line" so to speak.
Again, Sarah.... this is where you should admit defeat.
unhappy - you are directing well thought out points based on facts at people that get their news from the same people that covered up the facts and hid the truth in the past handful of elections. In other words, these people - bev, sarah, etc. are confused because the facts don't match what cnn has been spewing. They have no clue about what the problem is because the left wing libbies don't admit there IS a problem. Sort of like the economic bomb about to go off. Spending cuts, balancing the budget and reducing the deficit are concepts that have no meaning. The most important issue on the table is re-writing the Bill of Rights and revising the Constitution so guns can be taken away from law abiding citizens while Chicago gang-bangers continue to kill children.
Talk:
You are indeed splitting hairs and choosing to believe that they were actually in session. If you are going to apply something to a particular group you must apply it to your group as well. So, you are lying to yourself and others with your faux outrage over an "over reach" from the executive branch. Your supposed righteousness on the subject matter completely exculdes, as others have pointed out, how the right tried to block STANDARD appointments that happen when a new President is elected. So you'll have to forgive me if I don't buy into the garbage you espouse.
I also typed this at a medium to fast pace. I know you are interested.
Sarah, Pigotry, Beverly, Amy, John B, Jody and not to forget the biggest douche bag, Feisty, have to be the most phony, lying , pathetic hypocrites on this so called news vine
Dennis: When you are willing to pay for those anchor babies ,who did not have at least both parents with a visa, and yes ( both parents should of had a visa) then you have the right to defend the govt. about all those anchor babies. But until people like you can pay for them, you really don't have the right to tell others what they should do with their own money.
Sarah,
If you supposedly "know" all that then why do you support criminals? When you mention individuals that stay pass their visa and yet still choose to stay they are criminals. My single biggest issue with immigration is the notion that some want to put them ahead of others that have chosen to follow the procedures to become a legal citizen to this country. The reason I care? My girlfriend is just such a person. She came to this country under a work visa. She has paid thousands of dollars in both legal fees and immigration fees. She is on the list waiting (for years) to be granted a green card. In the meantime, she has the worry of whether or not her visa will be extended long enough to be granted that green card. All the while, she is reading day after day about politicians that want to "reward" illegals by granting them a fast track to citizenship. As you can well imagine, she wonders why she should apply for a country that seems to be more interested in those individuals that willingly chose to break the law versus those that chose to honor and abide by our laws to become a citizen. Those that choose to side with individuals that chose to break our laws should really think for a minute about those that that chose to honor our laws.
Allowing the use of anchor babies as a way to skirt the law is bad enough. The worst of it is allowing the law-breaking parents to stay too.
Tell me. To hear it from the xeno-posters, .99 cents of every tax dollar collected is spent supporting illegals, .98 cents of every dollar spent on medical care is giving free healthcare to illegals, all of our best schools have been vacated to make seats available to illegals. Not to mention 99 out of 100 illegals are responsible for 99 out of 100 murders by guns. Then there is the squat-and-drop. Apparently, when a non-US citizen woman goes into labor, they hike across a 500 mile desert, swim across a river, hitch a ride to the nearest artichoke farm, then squat-and-drop the baby, firmly anchoring it to the prickly artichoke plant. The umbilical chord is immediately put to use by tossing it back across the border where it is used as a life-line to bring the rest of the family across. Do we have an immigration problem, or a perception problem?
Now, if that damn Kenyan would just self-deport his ilk, this country would be the land of the free and the home of the brave.
We must employ Mexico before we can employ ourselves. It is in our best interest!
Unhappy,
So how do you suggest we go about differentiating between the two, because right now, in regards to enforcement we don't? How do you propose we pay for their deportation?
Sounds like you WANT immigration reform.
By the way, those "illegals" STILL pay taxes AND help our economy...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1609355/posts
Also, it's still ONLY a misdemeanor to sneak over the border. I guarantee you, you've committed a misdemeanor. Should we deport you???
Except for anyone who isn't an already established professional or doesn't have family here. What don't you get about that. If you aren't in one of those categories, YOU DON'T GET THE OPTION OF IMMIGRATING LEGALLY. They can get visa's, but there IS NO path to citizenship and renewal of those visa's is nearly impossible.
Yes, because the ALREADY ESTABLISHED PROFESSIONALS, who are actually able to immigrate here legally would like to enter the highly lucrative field of migrant farm working.
JK,
Your girlfriend would be one of the people to be helped through immigration reform. This isn't an either/or situation.
I just LOVE how the left-wing loonies here constantly use "politically correct" terms like UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS...
Those terms are so much more palatable for them compared to the actual truth of ILLEGAL ALIENS!
I mean, lets face it... ILLEGAL ALIENS is what they REALLY are and the left can't have us calling them that, especially since the term itself indicates the ILLEGALITY of their presence here!
----------------------------------------
BTW... what happened to debt crisis and gun control?
I guess immigration is the distraction of the day today!
:OP
Since Mr. Obama said the "couldn't get anything done from the Oval Office", it is time for him to hop on Air Force 1 and make a tour of the 60 States he visited in 2008 to garnish public OPINION on this matter.
That should make the ILLEGAL problem go away.
Yep, those ILLEGALS pay taxes when they go to the store or purchase goods and services....wait a minute.....the use their ITIN to submit IRS taxes and use the Child Tax Credit and claim children, NOT THEIRS, living in MEXICO and getting BILLIONS of taxpayers dollars in TAX REFUNDS. Yep, they pay their taxes.
ldo, it's disgusting isn't it
Yellow dog, you have to admit when prohibition ended so did the demand for bath tub gin, while there were moon shiners, it wasn't a significant portion of the alcohol market. Pot can be grown in the back yard. Or under the lights in the basement. My point is billions and perhaps a trillion dollars have been spent on the war on drugs and all it has accomplished so far is to put other wise law abiding people in jail simply for the use, possession or manufacture of this harmless and in some cases beneficial plant. Even coke and heroine while devastating to its users much of the time would be better treated then incarcerated in my opinion. There will always be law breakers but do we have to make laws against ourselves that do more harm then the actual crime?
Jody and other lefties complaining about Obama being slapped down by the DC Circuit Court over his recess appointments don't even mention that it was the Democrats that first came up with the pro forma sessions. All these remarks on the news programs and from the left wingers about 100 years of precedence is nothing but hog wash. Read the following from the NY Times on 06/08/2011:
“The use of pro forma sessions to block recess appointments is a very recent development,” said Katherine Scott, an assistant historian for the United States Senate Historical Office. “Republicans threatened it with President Clinton in the 1990s, but didn’t use it. Senator Reid was the first to declare, in 2007, that the Senate would hold pro forma sessions to block recess appointments.”
President Bush was encouraged by his advisers to challenge it, however he did not and cited his respect for the Congress to set it own rules. Now can anyone of you left wing nut jobs name one appointment by President Bush during a pro forma session of Congress?
I only employ Mexicans. They are cheaper than lazy Americans! Plus, I dont have to pay the 6% ss tax! Thank you Dems and Republicans for putting your electability interests ahead of all others!
You are correct. I want immigration reform. It starts by controlling our borders.This is what is making the American people so upset. I have no problems with legal immigration. My family members came through it this way.
Exactly....It means that one person in the family has to sacrifice the time it takes to make their way through to the US. That is how EVERYONE who came here legally had to do it. And that is why many legal immigrants are so angered that liberals would just grant amnesty to someone who didn't deserve it. It is not about professionals getting precedence. My family members who came here were not professionals but blue collar workers. They had NO family here. What they did was wait.... and wait.... until their paperwork came through.
That is why it takes longer than the 8 years that you think it does. You are spitting in the face of every legal immigrant who had to do just that.
Another problem is with the laws. It should be made a felony and not a misdeamnor. They should be able to realize that coming into the country illegally would be their downfall if they had applied for a job with a felony conviction. It would be another strike against them to do it that way. It would also make others less likely to break the rules regarding immigration.
Third..... Illegals do pay taxes, but so does everyone else. And legal immigrants have paid hundreds of dollars for fees for their paperwork. It is not fair to them, that they have to pay and illegals do not. And yes, that money indirectly supports illegals when they shouldn't.
Dan,
People like you will believe ONLY what the left-wing lunatics tell you to believe, ignoring all facts that do not support your talking points.
(and just as I expected... the vast majority of these loons are just 12 years old... that explains all the name calling that goes on here :-)
Chuck,
Was going to respond to your post to me and then read your drivel at 1.119 . . .
And decided not to waste my time.
Latest Obama diversionary tactic to avoid dealing with the economy and the deficit. While people suffer Democrats manufacture petty partisan fights.
My definition of Immigration Reform: Reward law breakers, who put our US laws secondary to their needs, and allow these lawbreakers the very same privilege, that they have taken illegally! This is a contributing factor in the decay of our US morals, as our government makes laws that will reward you for taking something that does not belong to you! Does that mean I can steal something and expect to be given it after I have owned it for awhile? This is what they [illegal immigrants] have done, and they will continue to have confidence that it will happen again, since we were told that the last amnesty was the last and we are doing it again!
Unhappy,
Here's a source to how difficult it is for EVERYONE, not just those like you. In fact, it's a lot harder for most. But you apparently are deserving of an easier route??? Those who can't afford it, can't navigate it and can't meet the requirements are NO LESS DESERVING than your people. You have a serious arrogance problem. Gays are just as deserving as you. Poor immigrants are just as deserving as you. EVERYONE is just as deserving as you. And then you have the audacity to call yourself "Christian".
http://www.immigrationpolicy.org/just-facts/how-united-states-immigration-system-works-fact-sheet
all it has accomplished so far is to put other wise law abiding people in jail simply for the use, possession or manufacture..
Johntho - Agree, too much of a strain on our prison system for non violent offenders. Often the sentencing is driven by lobbyists for pay to jail private prison congolomerates.
I just think that even if all drugs are made legal, there will still be those who chose to circumvent the regulation (ie. drug cartels) and make thier product cheaper, continue to smuggle so they get the rewards without paying Uncle Sam. A way for more tax cheats.
Not to sound all conservative and proselythizing but something is wrong with our culture and family structure - that the drug culture and its acceptance is seen as a solution. Maybe the middle step is to increase funding for a war on awareness and intervention prior to the teens, people getting wrapped up in drugs. This is not a black or white issue, very complicated not sure what the solution is.
The 14th amendment was never intended to be used for the whole anchor baby thing. It's a loophole that needs to be closed.
I've also noticed that ONCE AGAIN, you've yet to provide a single source except your opinion, to support anything you've said or claimed.
Layton, I expected you to throw in the towel long ago when you ran out of ammunition. Unfortunately for you there is no "extra credit" for shooting blanks.
Thank you for re-printing the points I made about Barry and his lack of a legitimate agenda. Assuming there is a country left after Barry and his socialist/left wing buddies get through with it, this putz of a president may go down in history as the worst - which really says something after Carter and Bush.
The things most important to the security of our nation are being pushed aside while Barry does his best to strenghten his party. The only things he has "accomplished" are things weakening our country. It borders on criminal.
Jody,
In a ruling that called into question nearly two centuries of presidential "recess" appointments that bypass the Senate confirmation process
The court went beyond the narrow dispute over pro forma sessions and issued a far more sweeping ruling than expected. Legal specialists said its reasoning would virtually eliminate the recess appointment power for all future presidents at a time when it has become increasingly difficult to win Senate confirmation for nominees.
"If this opinion stands, I think it will fundamentally alter the balance between the Senate and the president by limiting the president's ability to keep offices filled," said John P. Elwood, who handled recess appointment issues for the Justice Department during the administration of President George W. Bush. "This is certainly a red-letter day in presidential appointment power."
Mr. Obama has made about 32 such appointments, including that of Richard Cordray, as director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. President Bill Clinton made 139, while Mr. Bush made 171, including those of John R. Bolton as ambassador to the United Nations and two appeals court judges, William H. Pryor Jr. and Charles W. Pickering Sr.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/26/business/court-rejects-recess-appointments-to-labor-board.html?_r=0
sarah - You continue to ignore the core of this problem - and why it is a problem.
The people you laughingly refer to as "undocumented" are criminals, here illegally. The fact that they have circumvented the law has created a multitude of problems for the rest of us that are law abiding citizens. Until you address this basic and central point absolutely everything you say on the subject is moot. Barry's refusal to address this borders on the criminal.
The United States can no longer allow a dangerous country like Mexico to be on its border, flooding America with drugs, diseases, and various miscreants.
Chuck,
Never said we shouldn't protect the border. However, that doesn't solve the problem either. They're still here and at MOST they've committed misdemeanors, pay taxes, don't get welfare, help the economy, and deportation is expensive and straight up impossible.
Chuck,
Keep spouting your BS about
Of course it's going to get stronger. The GOP has nothing to offer anyone in this country. Hence their constant "retreats" to reinvent themselves. Very similar to your posts. Enjoy the view from your paranoid basement bunker (hanging out with Glenn and Rush???).
The rest of us prefer daylight and truth.
Sarah: How am I deserving of an easier route? That would be like you benefitting from the toil that your family did during the 1950's, assuming that your family members came over here legally. Are you willing to spit in their face because of all their sacrifice? Because that is what you are trying to do right now. You are trying to undo what they had to do the hard way. You should be ashamed of yourself.
Were your family members professionals? Perhaps then they might have had it a little easier. My family were not professionals. And yes, they had to sacrifice. It is not about who is most deserving, but who is willing to put into the time and the effort for the " American dream".
Christians have to obey the law as well according to Romans 13:1-3
When crossing the border, these people are not behaving as christians..... they come as thieves.
Sarah, why is it you are always spewing bull sh#t information? No welfare, how about all those anchor babies.
Dan,
The court seems to agree with me. Sorry.
And apologies for getting up in the air. I know that doesn't add to conversation but I just get so frustrated with people who don't see what is right in front of their face with a little critical thinking (not implying you do, just too many others that do that add to the frustration.)
There is no way for them to do that. You should really click on the links.
Yet, they've stolen nothing.
Now, your sources, please.
Joe,
Those "anchor babies" are citizens. Now please provide non-partisan sources that disprove anything I've said.
Just did a quick overview of the known blowhards on here like all the incestuous Joes, Ido, Unhappy, et al, and came away feeling pretty good about the future of the country. These people who never have one good word to say about anyone or anything are growing so tiresome to reasonable Americans that all they're doing is hastening their way to irrelevance and obscurity. It's not so much what they say, it's how they get there. You cannot ever be seen as a contributor to society with the whining, negative, self-absorbed approach these guys insist on using. We have a three-year old grandson we are trying to break of this and I'm happy to report we are having much more success with him than these crybabies' parents and grandparents had with them.
What is it going to take for you knuckleheads to realize that most of America cares not a whit what you think about anything? Just go away! You are very annoying and contribute nothing.
SickOfTheBickering:
I laugh at your attempt to sit at the adults table and act like you know the difference between the REAL facts and the not so real facts that everyone else ,who you don't agree with, believes. You don't seem to really be sick of the bickering. At least you are up front with your crazy and ignorance. Thanks for taking the time to offer me the opportunity to notice another idiot who posts on this board. See you on the playground.
talk: Precendent would agree with me. We shall see what the U.S. supreme court says about it soon enough. I can usually find someone somewhere that agrees with any point of view. A few years back there was a group of people who killed themselves trying to catch a ride on a comet passing by and I don't doubt they were any less sure of themseleves than you are right now.
SARAH,Yep, and they come here knowing that they will be taken care of. End that and you will see a 60% decrease in illegals border crossings. So they most certainly cost tax payers money.
Lazy libs must be replaced by Mexican labor if we are to survive as a country!
sarah, they are here illegally. Stop the welfare checks, the food stamps, the free medical care, prosecute anyone hiring an illegal to the fullest extent of the law. Recind the loophole allowing anchor babies. When they can't eat here they will leave here. Problem solved.
Layton, you're still shooting blanks - and still paying attention to what I have to say.
I'm not a republican - just one more error on your growing list.....
Barry is spending his time and resources dividing the country, handing out free phones and food stamps, collecting personal information on his supporters, etc while ignoring needed SPENDING CUTS/BALANCING THE BUDGET/REDUCING THE DEFICIT and addressing the NUCLEAR THREATS from North Korea and Iran.
I capitalized the points you keep missing or ignoring - but I know why you ignore them. It's because there is no reasonable excuse, and even though you have kool-aid stains on your lips you know it to be true.
Talk: Not that I am necessarily putting you on the same level as the comet people. Just making a point about perspective. My question to you would be if the US supreme court feels different than you will you accept their decision or continue to act like Obama is the only president to do this?
I don't mind people saying that this shouldn't be done but I also want those same people to be critical of this all the time and I want people to acknowledge that these positions have to filled regardless of whether they like the current President or not. Can we leave it at that?
1. Did Republicans think there was anything wrong with the electoral system when George W. Bush lost the popular vote but won the electoral vote? Of course not. In fact, they thought it worked just the way it was supposed to. But now that Republicans can no longer win the nationwide popular vote (having lost 5 of the last 6 times), now it needs to be changed so that they can start winning the White House again. Tell me which is more fair: Obama wins the popular vote in Va. and wins the electoral vote there, too; or, Romney loses the popular vote in Va. but wins the electoral vote there. If you want to talk about people being disenfranchised, then let's make it proportional to the statewide popular vote, since we know state boundaries can't be gerrymandered.
2. If there are 10 million or more undocumented immigrants in this country, how are you ever going to make a meaningful dent in rounding them up and deporting them? And how much are you willing to spend doing it? Obama has deported more illegal immigrants in four years than any other president, and he's focusing on the ones who commit crimes, and giving a look in the other direction to the law-abiding and productive. I'd say the tough path to citizenship outlined in this article sounds fair. Educated and productive people actually contribute to the economy, so I say: the more the merrier.
3. The most pressing problem facing this country most certainly is not spending, the deficit, nor the debt. It is unemployment. Yes, spending and deficits must be controlled, but in a solid economy. Not now, in other words. The deficit hawks have been worried about high interest rates and inflation resulting from deficit spending, but it's clear from the low interest and inflation rates that the economy isn't yet strong enough for us to need to worry about that. We should actually be spending more now to stimulate the economy, not less. Greece had to adopt austerity measures in a down economy solely because it doesn't have its own currency, and look how that's working out for them. 25% unemployment.
Joe,
Sources. Again.
Chuck,
I've already shown everything you said to be simple fear mongering. Go read the NUMEROUS sources I've posted. I'm not going to retype everything for you.
And YOUR sources, please.
sarah, are you really that much of an idiot? Maybe that's why you don't have a job.
Chuck, Sarah suffers from the worst form of that dreaded disease Liberalism. Very, very delusional and irrational.
Dan,
Yes we can leave it at that and if the SCOTUS decides he was within his powers in making those appointments, I have to accept it. The only thing I am saying is that all of you avid supporters are not accepting that fact that he may have stepped outside the boundaries and fight just as hard if not harder to defend when in reality, there is a good possibility he acted wrongly. If you will put it to rest until the SCOTUS reviews (and that may be a big if instead of when) and passes judgement then so will I. For now a court has ruled.
Consider it left until another day. : )
Dear uninformed voter,
This is not a Republican our Democrat issue. This is simply an issue of our country not being able to afford this. Pigotry why don't you open your house to immigrants rather than try to open everyone else's house...hypocrite.
You used to have a sponsor an immigrant so the state wouldn't be forced to take of immigrants, and you used to need a skill so you can support yourself, and be free from diseases. This is easily by-passed by our law makers, and is a deliberate attempt to destroy AMerican even quicker...by division and economics. Our open boarder policy discourages the correct path for success on levels of security and leads to illegal acts by our president to buy votes...how un-American can you be.
If you support this amnesty bill you are supporting the final straw that will break the backs of Americans finically. Parasites don't kill the host typically, but this amnesty bill sure will.
sarah - again - either acknowledge that these are criminals - here illegally - or as I said, any point you try to make is useless and moot. There is no legitimate arguement you can raise, none, zip. Acknowledge the irrefutable and we might have a worthwhile conversation - if not go check your sources.
Chuck,
I've already shown how the majority of them, according to the law, AREN'T. And I've already acknowledged that the rest have committed MISDEMEANORS.
I'm sure you're just as concerned about all the other misdemeanors committed in this country.
Now source how that isn't true. Oh wait, you can't.
Joe,
Still waiting for you to post some substance and sources.
Joe - I understand your point, but I think she know's she is wrong, trying to defend a pointless position. The delusion might explain it - but I think she is aware she's wrong.
Sarah, why would I waste my time doing that for you. No matter how many facts I may produce, an idiot like yourself will still come back with some liberal jibberish. Have you ever considered talking to a shrink?
Chuck, that's the scary part about liberals, they really don't believe that they are ever wrong. It all goes back to the brain disorder they suffer.
Chuck and Joe,
I've never seen anyone boast about NOT being able to back up their position before. Of course you two won't. I'm so shocked, that you won't show me your bipartisan, non bias sources of info.
Sarah: Except for those jobs that might have gone to undeducated legal immigrants, perhaps?
What sources? You have given me no sources except what you claim you see on a website, whereas even illegal immigrants know that it will take longer than the 8 years you suggested.
Roughly: Please also look at the Pew Hispanic Center for more details....
Talk: Just out of my own curiosity
What would you have him do? For the government to work you have to have people in key positions and if you have a small minority blocking progress for the entire country at what point does action just need to take place? and we are talking about an in session that no one was actually at to take care of business.
I would never call myself an avid supporter of any particular politician but find it very difficult to demonize what one does because they all do the same thing. The difference is I see it as a systemic issue and not just one rogue President doing the wrong thing. if this puts me in the same camp as the liberal lunatics then I guess I am guilty but reality tells a different tale.
I believe we should all learn Spanish so as to make our Mexican neighbors feel as welcome as possible. I also think it should be mandatory that each Home Depot have sleeping accommodations and refreshments
Sarah, sorry, I can't reason with an idiot like you. This is why you are single.
sarah - three current sources that put the number of illegals at 10 to 12 million, but some sources say it could be double that. These are criminals that absorb resources and give nothing back - except TB and Polio. As I said - indefensible.
Nobody cares if you want to give these criminals a pass or not, except a president that will pander to the Hispanic population and make BFL out of these criminals by offering them citizenship on top of the free stuff he's already handing out. What a pathetic excuse for a man, even for a politician.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/24/us-usa-immigration-idUSBRE82N09I20120324
http://immigrationreform.com/2012/12/06/census-estimate-of-illegal-alien-population-drops/
http://www.pewhispanic.org/2011/02/01/unauthorized-immigrant-population-brnational-and-state-trends-2010/
GREAT post Unhappy.
Ever think that the real problem is that the President refuses to negotiate in good faith?
We have a divided government and there is a legitimate, democratically elected chamber that has a different view of the problem. Every President in modern times has had to deal at least one chamber that is not in control of the President's party. And every President has had to do the same thing - negotiate and compromise. It means you don't get 100% of what you want. It means that you pick your fights and do a little horse trading.
Obama doesn't do this. He insults rather than compromises. He campaigns rather than negotiates.
@Joe:
Thanks to your disgusting ad hominem, everyone reading this message board is now just a little bit dumber.
You've heard of Bobby Jindal, right?
Chuck & Unhappy,
Excellent posts!! Perhaps if our government actually cared more about those that wished to migrate to this country LEGALLY rather than pandering to the vast population of illegals, we might move ahead with this country. I mean what do we say about ourselves as a country to those legal immigrants waiting years in line to become citizens (after having paid thousands in legal and immigration) fees that they don't matter in the big scheme of things because of this horde of illegals that could ultimately be favorable voters to their party? It's easy to see why they want to speed this process along. Recognizing that we, as a nation, do not or choose not to committ the resources necessary to deport all illegals is meaningless conversation at this point. America has already lost that battle...so now the question is do you acknowledge that they are here illegally, punish them with fines and then make them wait in the "hopes" of becoming a citizen (just like the legals immigrants are doing), or do you want to take the liberal way and fast track them ahead of other classes of immigrants and make them citizens sooner because that would "buy" them votes. Only time will tell however, if we progress like we are in Los Angeles with some of the legislation in our city designed to benefits illegals over legals, I'm afraid that we are not going to see a "just" solution to this problem.
JK, thanks for the kind words.
If we had unlimited resources we could afford to make other choices - rescue everybody. Unfortunately that isn't possible. It bothers me a great deal that the people that have worked within the framework are being pushed aside while Obama and the left wingers bend over backwards to reward those that have broken the law.
We have immigration laws for a reason.
Looks like sarah has "left the building" after we gave her the documentation she asked for. The silly thing is that she had to know it was soooo easy to find.
Highlights of the plan from the 8 Senators …
Under their proposal, undocumented immigrants would be allowed to register with the government, pay a fine, and then be given probationary legal status allowing them to work. They would have to "go to the end of the line" and apply for permanent status.
Under the plan, no one would be given more permanent legal status until new measures were
implemented to stem the flow of immigrants across U.S. borders.
The path to citizenship would also be contingent on a new enforcement measure to track the status of immigrants who may have overstayed visas.
Feisty, believing that ILLEGALS and their anchor babies should be deported is NOT racism. It's Call THE LAW.
What is it about ILLEGAL that you people don't understand?
The majority of Illegals in the Boston area are Irish. Is it racist to want THEM thrown out the same as any other nationality?
People from all over the world have been coming to this country for centuries LEGALLY, and they have been welcome. I have nothing against that.
It's the ones that circumvent the law that I want thrown out.
DEPORT all illegal. Fine any companies who seek out to hire them. Require ALL able bodied welfare recipients (16-50 age group) work a minimum of 20hrs a week doing the work that the illegals had been doing. This will not only give them some job training, but will also give them a sense of what it means to EARN a living. If they don't want to work, then they should dropped from the welfare rolls.
In some areas illegals make up a good percentage of the children in our schools. Think of how much money could be saved and used for AMERICAN Children. Think of the smaller classrooms.
Think of the healthcare we wouldn't be paying for with the illegals not being required to pay for health care under Obozocare. That again could be saved and use for our own citizens.
If these people want to be citizens, fine. Let them go through the process like our ancestors did.
Thanks Q22,
I am quite aware of the point of view the rabid right are offering. Reality doesn't paint the same picture you propose but good luck anyway. I'd say the opposite was true. Presidents do have to compromise but that isn't the issue with our current situation and anything said to the contrary is just nonsense. This Presidents policies are REPUBLICAN policies and anyone who isn't illiterate or ignorant can easily read a history book to find that to be true.
Capital idea, Kornfed! May I also suggest free tacos and a mariachi band for entertainment?
While we're at it...let's put maternity wards in every Home Depot so that Mamasita can relax and crank out the next round of "anchor babies" while Papa goes off to work and let's provide free legal counsel - in Spanish, of course - so that their "Path to Citizenship - tm" is as easy and painless as possible...
...Viva La Raza!
I love how people say that illegal immigrants are only committing a misdemeanor, it is still a law and they knowingly choose to break that law and others! What is going to stop them from breaking more of our laws? There are numerous crimes that are committed, due to fact that they are on lower economic rung. Examples of this is: driving without insurance, driving without a license, driving illegal vehicles[ not registered properly]. Fraud and theft of services, the list goes on! The breaking of these laws impact innocent law abiding citizens, They continue to commit violations of our laws and how can we expect that behavior to change since they are rewarded for violating our laws! Our laws are secondary to their needs, and it becomes the norm for them to act in their own self interests and forget about the rest of society! Why do people think that US citizens should be liable for for the living expenses of people here illegally? They take the risk of coming here, and that is the issue , we don't make it a "REAL" risk, we actually reward their choosing illegal behaviors!!!
Yellowdog-Mark D :Roy Wilson, where does it say that they will be moved ahead of people who came here through the legal channels? They will be placed behind those already in line."
If you live in a foreign country and apply to immigrate her, you could wait years for permission - especially if you don't have a needed skill. If you just sneak across the border as an unskilled, uneducated laborer (or family member of one), you will get to stay here immediately. I call that 'self-help priority'.
By the way - very few of the 11 million illegal immigrants will actually even try to become citizens (that takes effort). They just want to stay here, be able to work here, and raise their families here to take advantage of all America has to offer - with minimal contribution in effort or taxes. That's what this bill will offer.
I can't blame them - who wouldn't want everything we have if we lived in a country that has few opportunities, but we simply don't have the resources to support perhaps 5 billion such people who would jump at the chance.
We spend an estimated $680 Billion per year supporting those on welfare (a), and it makes no sense to keep adding to that tremendous cost.
(a) The government estimate is that welfare cost $335 Billion in 2012, and Medicaid for the 'poor' cost another $335 Billion - those costs account for over 60% of the total Deficit in 2012.
LosMan123 "Roy, What the hell are you talking about over there. There is no need to look at your link because one cannot claim a child on your taxes if that child does not have a social security number."
Not true. The illegal immigrants are claiming children, nieces, nephews, etc. in foreign countries and getting huge refunds. What makes you think that someone willing to break the laws to get here would be concerned about breaking the rules on taxes?
Here's the link;
http://www.infowars.com/millions-of-illegal-immigrants-are-using-a-massive-scam-to-get-bigger-tax-refunds-than-you-are/
Janine-1645002 "Feisty, believing that ILLEGALS and their anchor babies should be deported is NOT racism. It's Call THE LAW."
While it is the law, I don't think most Americans would support that approach - it's too inhumane and costly. It would be far better to merely enforce the existing laws against employers, and impose such penalties that no employers would DARE try to ignore the law (Start with E-Verify).
If the jobs dry up for illegal immigrants, they will voluntarily go back home.
I think every registered Democrat should be required to adopt an anchor baby. Put your money where your mouth is.
Press 1 for English. Press 2 for Spanish....No this is not meant to be racial....Just the truth..You hear it everyday.
Unhappy,
Yes, we spend money on them, but we save more. I already told you about FAIR and skewed statistics.
http://www.visalaw.com/98may/22may98.html
http://www.mnforsustain.org/media_bias_in_reporting_us_immg_pop.htm
You may also want to look at the overall picture...
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5312900
http://farmworkersforum.wordpress.com/2011/03/14/myths-and-realities-associated-with-undocumented-immigrants/
http://themoderatevoice.com/43071/myths-and-facts-about-illegal-worker-health-costs/
http://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/immigration-myths-and-facts
http://www.neighborhood-centers.org/page.aspx?PageID=330#economy
http://www.neighborhood-centers.org/page.aspx?PageID=330#jobs
http://www.neighborhood-centers.org/page.aspx?PageID=330#taxes
http://www.boulderweekly.com/article-3907-the-economic-impact-of-undocumented-immigrants.html
Way to pick and choose on the Pew Research Center, why didn't you post the whole link. You do realize that all those "expenses" you listed, undocumented workers help PAY for, since they PAY taxes, as even you've admitted. You also ignored the savings we also incur from them.
http://www.pewhispanic.org/
Chuck,
Not really sure why you posted those articles, as they're merely about the number of undocumented people here, which I've never contested.
Joe,
Still nothing?
"Get rid of them and their anchor babies."
Perhaps it's time to have the Supreme Court address the issue of 'anchor babies'. It all revolves around the issue of what's meant by the term 'subject to the jurisdiction thereof' in the Constitution. While the Supreme Court has previously ruled on the issue with regard to children born here to immigrants before there were restrictions on immigration (there could be no 'illegal immigrants' when all immigration was legal), there has not been any such cases relating to children of immigrants who came here 'illegally' (after laws establishing legal immigration were passed).
By the way - merely being born here does not give automatic citizenship for everyone - there are exceptions, such as children born to foreign embassy workers - they are not considered 'American Citizens', and cannot make that claim based on being born here.
Sarah-3043284 "Yes, we spend money on them, but we save more."
While many of your posts are plausible and well thought out, I had to gasp at that one.
There is no way that illegal immigrants contribute more money INTO the system than they take out (we save) - especially when you consider that a huge percentage of them work 'under the table' to avoid paying taxes, and when you consider the huge welfare, education and criminal costs associated with them and their families.
Your 'links' all have serious flaws and/or unsupported 'assumptions'.
Roy,
Look at the sources. They'll show you that they're disqualified from means tested assistance, the least likely to seek medical attention, don't have financial recourse against employers (i.e. tortious claims or unemployment), pay taxes through ITIN numbers, but don't collect what they pay in...
Long term, they definitely save us money.
Here's what I find funny...Republicans rejoicing over a court decision limiting the power of a Democratic administration somehow not understanding it will also affect future Republican administrations. That is of course...if there are any more Republican administrations.
How so?
Sarah-3043284 "Roy, Look at the sources."
I looked at several of them, and they all have a serious bias and make unsubstantiated 'assumptions', or are conveniently 'limited' in their calculations of cost.
Simple logic should tell you that it cannot be true - for example, let's look at some statistics;
97% of all Income taxes are paid by the top 50% of wage earners in this country.
Virtually 100% of the welfare/medicaid benefits go to people in the bottom 47% of income earners.
I would bet that well over 90% of those here illegally fall in the 47% category that pay no income taxes.
And these costs only include Federal spending, and do not include the huge costs of education and crime for illegal immigrants at the state and local level.
Sarah,
The fact that they "pay" taxes is based on them (for a great majority) on providing illegal social security numbers. So given that fact, why should they be entitled to the taxes that they pay? You have to be legal to work, and hence receive the benefits that you have paid into the system. If you choose to provide an illegal social security number then you should not expect to receive those benefits. And again, if you choose to skirt the legal system (a system that every other legal worker has to abide by) then you are a criminal. The world doesn't work with the concept that two wrongs make a right...
And to your previous post...this is about favoring illegals over legals... My girlfriend has no guarantee that they would expedite the process to clear the backlog of people currently in the system in favor of the illegal horde that they will have to process. Add to that...how much are these illegals are going to have to pay for their "past sins"?? If it's the same as what my girlfriend has paid over the years then by all means have them pay and wait in the back of the line. If it turns out to be some nominal fee (very much like what it is happening in Los Angeles regarding impounding unlicensed drivers cars) then this claim that they pay a penalty is just a sham and intended to appease liberals because it makes them feel that they have made those bad illegals pay for their crimes.
sarah - When faced with fact - knowing it's fact, the denial becomes a lie, but lying only to yourself. The articles - documentation by accredited sources - calls them illegals. There is no other definition, unless of course you're trolling.
JK,
SCOTUS disagrees with you about the use of those SSN's...
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/cert/08-108
Chuck,
Uh, yeah that doesn't mean or prove anything. Illegal immigration doesn't make a human being an "illegal", anymore then shoplifting makes a human being an "illegal". That's also a MISEMEANOR, do you refer to those convicted of it as "illegals"?
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/cert/08-108
Roy,
Both of those programs are off limits to undocumented workers via 1996 Welfare Reform.
Your "willing to bet", does not a statistic or study make. And again, THEY PAY TAXES, meaning they contribute to the money being spent on their "anchor babies".
And, I'm not arguing for keeping undocumented people who end up in jail here. That's a different issue.
Hoist By Their Own Petard
Should the Republican party be successful in their ill advised attempts to "modify" the Electoral
College, they will find their staying power even more weakened. The proposed modification will allow
the right fringe to start capturing Congressional districts away from the Republican party, especially in
the deep South and the inter-mountain West. "Winner take all" has been the main reason only two
parties can successfully vie for political power. Changing to Congressional districts may even introduce
parliamentary style bloc politics in Congress. And that's how you get hoist by your own petard.
Sarah-3043284 "Roy,Virtually 100% of the welfare/medicaid benefits go to people in the bottom 47% of income earners...........Both of those programs are off limits to undocumented workers via 1996 Welfare Reform."
Nonsense - Here are some findings from a research study made in 2010 - link below;
Addendum to Post #1.201
Here's the link to the study on illegal immigrants getting welfare - they actually use welfare at a much higher rate than legal residents of the same ethnic group;
http://www.cis.org/immigrant-welfare-use-2011
Roy,
Here's some info on CIS...
http://www.splcenter.org/publications/the-nativist-lobby-three-faces-of-intolerance/cis-the-independent-think-tank
http://thinkprogress.org/security/2009/06/20/175500/cis-immigration-van-derbeken/?mobile=nc
It's just another arm of FAIR...
http://www.visalaw.com/98may/22may98.html
http://www.mnforsustain.org/media_bias_in_reporting_us_immg_pop.htm
Started by John Tanton...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tanton
Sarah,
Using an obtuse court case like this doesn't help your cause... as quoted from the article..."Flores-Figueroa contends that under the statute, he committed mere identity fraud rather than aggravated identity theft because he did not know that the identity information in fact belonged to a real person...." This person still committed a crime, since identiy fraud is a crime. Whether or not it's aggrevated was the topic of this case... The fact that you have to use a case like this that is splitting hairs over the intended use of language understanding belies the fact that this person knew he was not using his own name, but also knew that he was using someone else's name shows the deceit and the willingness to easily break our laws. All this adds more credence that these people are exactly what they are...ILLEGALS! Perhaps at some time later in your life when you have matured a bit more you will truly understand the gravity that people that refuse to honor our laws and abide by rules that every other law-abiding citizen has to adhere to, you might then understand what the rest of the country is complaining about with this topic.
Good catch Sarah. Google is a wonderful thing, it helps you find the biased sources Roy refuses to link. Here's what Sourcewatch has to say;
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Center_For_Immigration_Studies
Who knew Roy had a soft spot for White Supremecists?
JK,
That ruling is obscure, it's binding primary legal authority. Meaning, according to the highest legal authority in the land, theft per se needs to include mens rea. The use of SSN's by undocumented workers DOES NOT INCLUDE MENS REA, ergo it doesn't constitute theft per se.
http://www.immigrantjustice.org/
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/05/us/05immig.html?_r=0
Perhaps at later time in your life, when you have a better understanding of our legal system, you'll understand this concept.
While I may not possess a legal degree, it's clear that from the admission of the person in this case that he admitted to identity fraud. If you or I had committed the same crime we would be charged, and most likely convicted of that crime. What you still fail to address is that in any case of these individuals do they ever admit that they were wrong to begin with using someone else's identity. Perhaps even if the legal issue is gray and there is no clear decision (since the ruling was not unanimous), the moral issue of right and wrong definitely escapes you and the illegals.
Not if the circumstances of our case were on point with this. Meaning that we were in the same position, with the same motivation, and lack of malice, since this has set an applicable precedent.
Doesn't matter. They KNEW he had used the number inappropriately and it STILL didn't constitute theft per se.
Almost NO SCOTUS rulings are unanimous. That means nothing, as this is still the law of the land. They don't need to be 9-0 rulings to be binding.
Moral is subjective. Neither mine, nor yours, hold any value in this argument.
Sarah-3043284 "Roy, Here's some info on CIS..."
That's old, overused strategy - "Ignore the facts and attack the messenger".
The study was based on U S Census data.
John B, Des Moines, IA "Who knew Roy had a soft spot for White Supremecists?"
Another one that espouses ""Ignore the facts and attack the messenger".
My wife is Black and my 5 children are of 'mixed heritage'.
Roy,
That old, overused strategy, "Skew the statistics to fit your biased agenda and then when called out on it continue to claim they're facts and throw in some 'liberal media' conspiracy voodoo for good measure".
CIS is NOT a credible source. If those numbers were taken from the Census data, link to the census data, not CIS. It's amazing what a statistician can do with numbers.
Sarah-3043284 "It's amazing what a statistician can do with numbers."
And it's amazing that some people will believe things that defy logic, just because they read them somewhere. See my Post #1.196.
The idea that low income people, who pay virtually no income taxes, yet get tons of benefits "save more than they cost" is ludicrous.
By the way - You seem to have lots of time to post comments, yet from past posts, I believe that you are unmarried. Do you by any chance depend on government services for some of your support?
PS - I'm retired, in case you were tempted to turn the question back on me.
Roy,
It's amazing that you believe your "logic" to be more credible than actual numbers and studies. And, not that it's any of your business, I'm a full time MS/JD candidate, that spends a lot of time trying NOT to do her homework.
Sarah,
You are right in that moral is subjective. It's a shame that more illegals don't possess any morality whatsover. They break the law to come into this country and then when finally granted citizenship they will be so proud (supposedly) that they are an American citizen. Perhaps in the next 30 years after this wave has been granted citizenship and we are in the same place again with another 12 million illegals wanting amnesty, they might object. It's clear that they hold no real allegiance to our country because if they did they would honor the legal method for entering our country. It disheartens my girlfriend because here she plays by the rules and yet now it seems that she is minimized by the pandering of illegals. Do you really think that all illegals are going to pay the thousands of dollars in legal and immigration fees? Do you think they will have to worry whether or not they will be graned citizenship? My girlfriend wonders if her visa will last long enough in time to be granted a green card, but if it isn't, guess what? She will be deported...all the while illegals sleep soundly under the blanket of protection from liberals such as yourself.
JK,
But you just said morality is subjective. So logically, you can't than presume to say who does/doesn't possess them.
To me, that's the height of immorality. Generalizing an entire group of people in a negative matter, and assigning them dishonor, while having never even spoken to .001% of them. Aren't you glad morals are subjective, otherwise I could say YOU have none.
Not to mention, we've already been over the difficulties, if not impossibilities of coming here legally, for most people. Go read the sources again.
Well, except that the immigration reform we're seeking would also protect her. You're welcome.
Sarah-3043284 "I'm a full time MS/JD candidate, that spends a lot of time trying NOT to do her homework."
That explains your frequent use of legal links, but when I was going through my MBA program (Finance) at a large California university, I had little time for things like this.
If you don't like the CIS report, you can find numerous other links on the Internet that prove that illegal immigrants do indeed get welfare benefits.
I think we've beaten this 'dead horse' long enough - Bye, and 'Have a nice day' :)
Roy,
Ditto. And finance??? Yuck!
Sarah,
It's clear I'm talking to a brick wall with you. If they really chose to come here legally (like my girlfriend) they would possess what people would call morals. The fact that they knowlingly broke the law excludes them from having morals. How could you possibly expect people that spit on the others that came here legally to possess any allegiance to this country? The immorality is your misguided belief that simply because it's difficult they should be cut a break from their unlawful actions. Perhaps you should be reminded as well as other illegals, that life is not fair. Simply because you either were born in a crappy country doesn't outrightly give you the right to break another country's law.
And of course I see you chose to not offer any explanation how illegals are supposed to pay the exact same money that legals have paid. If you are good with them shelling out over $15K (between legal and immmigration fees) for each man, woman and child, and have them wait at the end of the line for the CHANCE of becoming a citizen, then you and I are on the same page. Otherwise you have zero credibility about immigration reform. If you disagree with the "fairness" of this situation between legals and illegals then you clearly show that you could care less about the plight of legals and clearly are just pandering to illegal vote.
And hate to break this to you...all this talk about immigration is just talk. And if it were to pass, there is no mention about those that are here legally being granted automatic legal status. You should really get a clue how this process works.
JK,
Yawn! Blah blah, AGAIN, your moral admonitions are subjective and irrelevant. I don't care what and/or who you think is/isn't immoral. It matters, NOT AT ALL.
She would no longer face the fear of deportation and would be granted leeway, while we figure this out.
And please quote where I've said that things should be contrary to that position? In terms of their paying that money, they should. They can pay it through tax increases and fees, which will be easy once they know longer fear being deported and can fully and legally join the payrolls.
Refusing to demonize one group of people does not take away from the rights of others. NO immigrants should face that fear, unless they're gang bangers or violent. I've never said different. You can't even quote where I've disagreed with you, except for your hate mongering and generalizing of those who are one piece of paper away from your girlfriend.
If you thnk the mass of illegals that are making at or below minimum wage are going to be able to pony up $15k/person, you are deluded. It will be yet another government assistance/bailout program that will never pay for itself, and we the taxpayers will be on the hook. The only hate I have is towards people (again...I have to say this slowly for the dimwitted crowd) are those that KNOWLINGLY BREAK THE LAW! In my view, they are no different then your "gangbangers" and "violent" ilk.
And yet again, no where in this immigration reform is there any word about legal immigrants already being processed through the system to being excluded from being deported even if this legislation is ever passed.
You have a very warped sense of what is and is not moral...
If you think we would make them pay it in one lump sum, you're deluded.
They ARE the tax payers.
AGAIN, those who have broke the law in regards to immigration have only committed MISDEMEANORS. Do you think people who drive on suspended licenses and shop lift are no better than gang bangers, too?
Take that up with the gang of eight, not me, because I support you in it...
http://www.dnainfo.com/chicago/20130121/chicago-citywide/immigration-activists-call-for-moratorium-on-deportations/slideshow/332565
Again, I could give a @!$%# about what you think is moral. I'm not sure why you continue to post that. Unless you simply like looking like you have a superiority complex???
Pigotry, The shutdown of radar during good weather is not a big deal. It just saves money & lowers the noise floor. The risk of a any storm appearing out of nowhere w/o tripping the other sensors is nil.
As to blocking the budget process, Mr. Reid gets that award. Per constitution, the revenue bills start in the House & are then sent to the Senate. The House has done so several times, yet the Senate has not voted on them. You might dislike what the House sent to the Senate, but it is dishonest to say that they did not forward a bill to the Senate. Mr. Reid is the current road block to having the Senate vote on the budget, thus setting the stage for multiple continuing resolutions.
POTUS-BHO, could break that roadblock easily, by stopping all federal expenditures in the state of Nevada, where Mr. Reid comes from & represents. The citizens of that state would get the Senator's attention quite quickly.
So if BHO hasn't, why not?
So you finally admitted that they broke the law...wow...a landmark admission. Misdemanor or not, they chose to break the law, and yet, you would want to reward them with citizenship. And yes, since my girlfriend is about to fork over yet another $2,750 in extension fees and lawyer fees, I expect the same from them. You see, the lawyers and the government doesn't care if you make a million or a dollar, they still charge and expect to have the fees paid before they will process your paperwork, so yes, same for same. And as for being taxpayers, unless they can show that they paid federal and state income taxes under their own either TIN or social security (just like my girlfriend) then then are NOT taxpayers, contrary to your assertion that they pay taxes (under either fraudulent or non-existent ss numbers). And lastly, I could give a rats behind what you think...you are just yet another run of the mill liberal in a long line of liberals that want to regulate gun ownership under the guise of protecting innocent lives yet in the same breath have no compunction to ending a life of an unborn child because it's a woman's choice.
Try to keep up, I've been saying that all day. Go look at post #1.115. I believe that was where I first said it.
But you didn't answer my question. You said they were no better than gang bangers, misdemeanor or not, so then are shop lifters and those who drive on suspended licenses no better then gang bangers too?
Unless you say yes, you have a serious bias.
And it isn't about "rewarding" them. There should have been a legal pathway to begin with, which there isn't. AGAIN, go look at the numerous sources I've posted. Also, there is NO feasible or logical solution, besides to create a pathway. Especially as you're sooooo concerned about the law and money spent. Deporting ONE costs $12,500, if we follow the law. And I'm sure you wouldn't want to be hypocritical and NOT follow the law, so how do you propose we pay for the $1.37 billion, to 2.5 billion?
http://www.visalaw.com/01apr3/15apr301.html
That MAY clear things up for you.
Great, than you should understand how annoying it is to listen to someone whose opinion you don't care about lecture you about morals.
Sidenote... Sarah, I was sure you had a G job & were using their time, bandwidth & multiple computers to be EVERYWHERE I looked on vine. I guess the only downside of an EDU connection is the lack of a paycheck attached. giggles. Also, they aren't suppose to take your soul until AFTER you pass the bar, so no more hitting babies until then. lol
P.S. Envy the bandwidth!
Myown,
I'm a step ahead. I had no soul to take, muah ha ha ha ha!!! Don't worry, I'll have that "G" job as soon as I graduate and then I'll implement my evil liberal, baby punching, agenda! All while being paid by your tax dime. Oh yeah!
PS. The lack of pay check doesn't bother me too much, as I find Sponge Bob mac'n'cheese and boxed wine, delicious. I have very refined tastes.
Forgot to anser...yes, they are no better than gangbangers...
It is about rewards...if they can't (or couldn't) get into this country through legal means, then tough @!$%#...life isn't fair... try immigrating to Mexico or another country that doesn't allow easy access.
Cost? How about we CHARGE them to get them out of the country? Or since you are so concerned about the cost to deport them, then recoup it from the the supposed BILLIONS that they they have already allegedly paid into Social Securty...
Sarah,
One more thing...I read your citation. Yet another reference to a liberal publication that "claims" that illegals pay into the system yet provide no real documentation except for a citation from the IRS Inspector. No where does it state that illegals pay any federal or state taxes under their own SSN or TIN. Giving credit to illegals that use fraudulent documenation doesn't count as contributing to society gladly (as the article makes it sound). Additionally, the article also fails to point out that while illegals also pay sales tax and property tax, so do visitors to this country. Anyone who comes to this country contributes in some small way via taxes, whether it be sales tax or lodging tax or whatever. To claim that this is the additional revenue that illegals contribute is pathetic at best. If you are going to post some arguments to back up your claim, I would suggest you do a much better job than that....
Sarah, Oh, Sarah, Many things can be forgiven, but boxed wine. Wine country boy here, the coven has been informed of your horrible transgression.The punishment will be more than you can stand. Sorry, rules.
They will be installing you with a soul, (cue ominous music) a teaparty republican soul.
Its just business you understand, you'll be needing a bottle of estate reserve with each meal to drown out those voices of Reagan, Buckley & Thatcher. Boxed wine, how could you ??!!??
As I said to Roy...
That old, overused strategy, "Skew the statistics to fit your biased agenda and then when called out on it continue to claim they're facts and throw in some 'liberal media' conspiracy voodoo for good measure".
NOTHING of what you said proves/shows they don't pay taxes.
Well...the reverse is equally true. Nothing in the publication said factually that legitimate illegals are using their own issued SSN or TIN's. To say otherwise smacks in the face of facts.... The effort that you have to reference something short of the National Enquirer for illegal immigration speaks volumes of the kind of real fact finding you purport as "truth"... You know...I could use "facts" from FOX, but they are about as worthless as your "facts" from your reference. Here is something to learn in lfe...just because it "fits" your "opinion" doesn't make it "fact"...and only reading from websites that are skewed to begin with towards a liberal mantra you will never get the "true" unbiased story on any issue...
In the middle of the sequestration fight, agencies may be frustrated with all the back-and-forth between the two parties over the debt limit and sequestration. Some federal projects meant to improve public services have been stopped outright. Thousands of backlogged cases at the Social Security office in Rochester, N.Y., will remain that way after a long-awaited plan to double the number of judges handling hearings and appeals was put on hold.
Companies and researchers in line for government funding are fuming. "All they can say when I check with them is, 'You're still being considered for funding, but we can't move forward at this time,' " said Stephen Higgins, a professor of psychiatry and psychology at the University of Vermont awaiting about $19 million in two grants from the National Institutes of Health to study chronic disease and smoking.
Thoughts on Today’s GOP.
For the past two months or so, the Republican Party has spent a considerable amount of time beating themselves up over their losses in the November elections. They have had retreats and get togethers where they have reproached themselves as to how things didn’t work out for them. As they insulted women, immigrants, the poor, the gay and lesbian community, now have decided that there are certain words such as rape or abortion that shouldn’t be uttered……at least not in public. This, they think will make them more appealing to voters and therefore win back the White House. We have yet to see any changes in their characters. Last week during the Bhengazi hearings they exhibited their usual pattern of bullying and displaying a lack of knowledge about the incident that was sad but yet astonishing in the amount of fury they used trying to propel this tragic incident into a way to embarrass the administration and score a political point or two for their side.
Over the weekend they meet again in North Carolina, they re-elected Reince Priebus who ran unopposed, as their leader of the Republican National Committee. This is the same guy who during the campaign had difficulties telling the truth a number of times, Politifact gave him 46% for the number of times he made false statements. But the party poobahs liked him so he was re-elected. Will he do better in the next cycle, who knows?
They are wringing their hands as to how they can better appeal to minorities, especially Hispanics who gave 71% of their votes to the President and are now feverishly jumping on the immigration legislation bandwagon, even though most of their party would prefer they “self deport”. They most likely will support a comprehensive bill on immigration, but in their hearts are they still thinking as they do in AZ and other states, where the immigrants especially Hispanics are blamed for all the woes of the country? One only has to read some of the posts on First Read and elsewhere to know people’s hearts don’t change very well especially over issues such as immigration and other emotional topics
When Reince Priebus’ assistant, Sharon Day, stated at the NC meeting, “I’ll talk to a head of lettuce, if it will convince them to vote Republican”, I’m skeptical that they will change. They really are the stupid party, making stupid statements like that , treating the Secretary of State so rudely on national television, we know that you can’t fix stupid no matter what they claim or if they even try to change the rules to cheat as that idea has been rejected by the Governor of Virginia, good for “governor probe”...
he learned the extremes don’t work.
What we do know is the Republicans seem to aim towards perfection. Prince Priebus (he who would be King) is aiming to achieve a rating of 100% when it comes to false statements. There is no question that he will do better in the next cycle. The more interesting question is will the GOP wake up and realize they have a loser leading the party with a loser message.
Republicans now realize the only way to get Obama or the Senate Democrats to cut any spending will be to let the automatic cuts kick in on March 1st. Both party's created the problem, but only one seems interested in solving it, as the other hasn't even bothered to pass a budget in almost 4 years. Apparently borrowing and spending is much easier without a budget to get in the way.
Of course, Priebus ran unopposed. Who the hell wants the job?
Gingerbread Mama, some in the GOP are just now realizing that talking to the choir will get them no where. Unless they realize it's the 21st Century and that people are not torn up over immigration, that they don't want wars, that they prefer gay/lesbian rights for all, then they will change their tune.
But they're not ready. Perhaps in another 10 years or so. Having Priebus as their leader is a dead end. A complete dead end.
Rick-3416939
Again.
America has wised up to the Rush/Drudge/Faux sNewzzzzz faulse mantra of labeling Democrats as "Tax and Spend".
It's a lie perpetuate by the RW media, and therefore, people who repeat this lie are liars themselves.
Salud
Reasoning with republicans: YOU can't fix STUPID.
Gingerbread I thought the comment “I’ll talk to a head of lettuce, if it will convince them to vote Republican” was utterly insulting. This same contempt for voters was telegraphed loud and clear during the campaign in the Republican mentality that: "47% of people will never vote for us because they like being dependent on government."
Amy, yes it was offensive, but the group that should take offense are the GOP. Apparently, he believes they are all a bunch of vegetables in a vegetative state. He and Santorum aren't too far off in their ideas as to the makeup of the GOPTP party - a bushel of non-thinking, uncommunicative, not so smart folk. Is it lunch time yet - a good GOPTP Palin word salad with a side of dangling carrot and a scoop of mashed potato-head sounds absolutely delish. Please put the sprinkle of government cheese on the side.
Amy, that comment was a clear indication of how they have not learned a whit about how to address their ideas to anyone. It is insulting and it underscores how little they have learned about people and what a very long way they have to go before, if ever, it comes naturally to them. Leopards don't change their spots. They can change all the words they want, but action and acting on their those changes is a whole other story. Frankly I don't believe that will ever happen. Conservatives are nasty, narrow minded people....they just cant help themselves.
Will pig if it gets you out on the street it will well worth it, you won't be able to use GOV. computers to post anymore, when you should have been working if you can call it that.
The beginning of the end for our republic. Now I understand why so many wealthy Americans are leaving the U.S.. Amnesty for those breaking the law....... As why? Cheap labor.
GBM, great post.
I listen to the GOPTPers talk and wonder how many of them were ever elected in the first place; then I realize that thanks to the FOX, Limbaugh and the other right-wing hot-air blowers of nonsense, the GOP has successfully dumbed down their voters to such an extent that someone as uninformed and ignorant of history and government as Michele Bachmann can win and worse run for President; that people who hate government and everything associated with it can become viable legislature and presidential candidates.
Now suddenly, even on FR, I see conservatives referring to the USA not as a democracy but as a republic. Wonder which of the right-wing media created that talking point. We are a republic, but we are a democratic one; one with a system of elections where the majority is supposed to rule. Yet the RNC is proposing an anti-democratic notion that the minority of a state's voters should win a national election. This would be the equivalent of the 2000 election every single presidential year. That's not a democratic republic, that's a dictatorship by gerry-mandered proxy.
the more that I read from you liberals, the more I am convinced that you suffer from a brain disorder that makes you this ignorant. The medical world needs to find a cure for this dreaded disease called liberalism. Even sounds like a disgusting disease. Its symptoms are acting childish, delusional and irrational
Amy, great point. The head of lettuce comment was insulting and just another dog whistle blown because we know who it is who primarily picks those heads of lettuce. Way to go GOPers, keep on insulting voters and continue down the path to total irrelevance.
Jody, that is yours and your fellow libs interpretation only.
Amy: This actually becoming more and more of a fact though......
Unhappy-1583758
I disagree. For one thing, people have been voting against their own best interests for decades now, with low income folks helping elect Republicans who then fight against unions and cut taxes for the wealthiest. That was what was so odd about Romney's remarks - people dependent on government, like seniors and low income folks actually do vote Republican. It's the young people, minorities, Hispanics, educated whites, northerners and women the Republicans have lost.
Amy , try getting a job, you are probably one of the 47%
Immigration reform will largely depend on the House's willingness to go along, which is not a sure thing. i look at this as an opportunity for the Republicans to, once again, pass punitive measures against the undocumented rather than fine the employers of undocumented workers.
As long as a valid path to citizenship is implemented, then this country can move forward on this extremely sensitive and important issue.
The Latino vote 2012 Presidential election:
Voting is power in a democracy.
.
I think the GOP has noticed. Time to go along for the GOP on immigration reform. Latinos - now the largest minority group and the fastest growing in the US.
...fastest growing minority
No kidding! That's because our authorities have failed in their elected duties to throw out illegal aliens who walk amongst us- to the tune of over 11 million strong and growing! And now it's impractical to just toss them back over the fence. Just give them citizenship and that'll fix it eh? Yeah, then when their brothers, sisters, cousins and extended families also want in for the free ride we taxpayers will be forced to afford, we'll watch those numbers grow and grow. That's ok- we're used to paying $3.50/ gal gas anyway.
Let's whore ourselves out for votes at the expense of running America into the dirt...
Here in N.M. the schools, hospitals, jails and social services are all overcrowded, thanks to the mass influx of illegal immigrants. Crime, gangs, drugs are all on the rise.
If this is the vision you have for America, ignore the laws already on the books and buy yourself some more votes.
I also noticed that, 77% of the more than 800,000 voters on the MSN poll, Said NO to allowing illegals to stay.
Pro,
Deportations under Obama (all records): FY2010 = 392,000; FY2011 = 397,000; FY2012 = 410,000 for a total of 1.2 million in the last 3 years.
@Dennis- are those numbers supposed to be impressive and prove some point. Sorry, even if those numbers are accurate it only proves how badly they've failed in their duties. Might have something to do with political gain eh?
Pro,
Yet this administration has done more to enforce our immigration laws that any other administration … ever!
More border guards, more troops on the border, more arrests, more trials and more deportations.
Yes we must reward criminal behavior. It's the liberal way.
Really nibor? So Reagan was a liberal? He gave amnesty to folks here illegally.
Please explain why these people could not use the same legal path to citizenship that there fellow countrymen have been using since 1986?
@Dennis- drink the kool aid, just keep on drinkin'
yeah pigotry, there's a reason they are growing in such large numbers- they come over and cross the border when they are ready to give birth, use MY tax dollars to give birth, Presto- a baby who is legal, welfare, food stamps, blah,blah,blah, and give birth to 5 or 6 more..and our government allows this-utter bull crap...no other country in this world would allow this, and reward them for doing so..it's no wonder they come over smh. I can't even get medical care
Sluggo... I hear you. I was watching ABC Sunday news and Arizona Senator Menendez said that reformed needed to happen because the public approves of it. I do not know what polls he has in hand, but all the ones I have seen indicated otherwise. Even various drives to work, I have noticed Hispanic themed convenient stores that solely cater to that population. All three are in a 10 mile radius. It is truly amazing the changes that are going on in this country.
Dennis... as much as I want to believe that the borders are more secure now more than ever, I have not seen anything to support that. Not when I see/hear stories that California's borders and cities are being overrun with the Mexican drug dealers, how they have semi-submersibles in order to try to bypass security. In watching Border Wars, there are houses that are keeping up to 60 people at a time to try to get them by police, customs, and any other law enforcement.
Dennis, when you change the definition of deportation to include turn arounds at the border, hell, people "immigrating" to Charlotte every day from South Carolina (and vise versa) to work would look good too if we didn't allow them to live here or enter without a green card.
Really?
Exactly when was Menendez elected a Senator for AZ?
Or are did you just assume because he has a Hispanic last name? lol
Feisty.. That is what ABC news stated. Oh wait! Make that New Jersery. Wrong state, yet it was still said. I don't assume anything. Do you? *smiles*
sluggo, did you go around and card everyone you seen? if not how do you know they were all illegals? i'm from NM myself, fun fact in case you didnt know in 1912 when our state first won statehood Hispanics were the majority(mainly cause this land was ours long before it became yours), even now 100 years later Hispanics are still in the majority with 47% of the population. Maybe that is why you see all these brown people, and there is just a defect in your brain that makes you automatically think they are illegals when you see them!
Didn't stop you from spreading misinformation though... did it?
Then you wonder why over half this country despise low information voters who LIE with impunity!
It would seem that I did correct myself Feisty, thus where is the lie? I'd say it is moreso in those that DO NOT do their research, don't you?
ProFreedon . . .
What that's got to do with immigration I'm not positively sure. Anyway, filled my tank yesterday at $2.62 gal for the mid-grade. Also, after reading your rants I was curious as to who you expect to pick the harvest in this country? We have relied on immigrants for YEARS in order to keep costs down. What's your solution for that? You certainly have an opinion on everything else . . .
Hey, GreatlyEntitled
Sen. Menendez is from NJ. I watch Jersey Shore, and saw him there in the show (guest appearance?). Great politicians are also great actors...remember Reagan and Clinton? Good acting. You have to.
Yes Mrs Piggy I have corrected that already. What can I say other than the coffee didn't kick in yet? *laughs* How is your day going? I never watched that show. *sheepish smile*
Layton... dang I want your price for gas. I spend $3.09 on regular unleaded. *huffs*
GreatlyEntitled, You must learn on this website that errors are insignificant and unimportant if you are a "good little libbie" .... hence the term "misspoke" when the Connecticut Senator lied (several times) about his service record ! LOL !!
But, God forbid, a conservative should get a detail crossed .... they will jump all over you and serial LIARS like BIIGGG FEASTY will declare YOU to be the liar !
jim... oh I am learning alot of things on here... I made a post yesterday that asked " I thought this site was about share thoughts and discuss right?". To which I was told " NO it was not a discussion board. It might have started out that way, however that ended when my side kept losing". Now I am not quite sure how any of my thoughts lead to one side or another as they are simply thoughts. I at least keep an open mind to all things. *shakes my head and laughs*
It is time to CLOSE the Candy Store...
BASICALLY LAWS EXISIT THAT WORKED..Politicians undermined them for votes on both sides. Now look where we are. If we stray from the Constitution you have our biggest current problems...occurring.
@feisty
LMAO @ she who calls others racist. You just have to feel warm and fuzzy inside that there are so many on both sides of the electorate who share your racist rants. Now whether you should be named "The Ultimate Racist", non racists believe you to be the one who should be named.
I always have to laugh at those who when you make suggestions about OBEYING the laws we have people like Feisty who can only come up with calling us Racist.
What is RACIST about wanting laws obeyed? No one is forcing legal citizens of ANY race to leave. Just the illegal criminals of ANY race.
hahahaha the Race card is OLD and quite boring.
Janine... something else could have added to those replies and will do now is that I am Hispanic. *winks and laughs*
The GOPTP's Fatalistic Attitude.Who knows exactly when the republican party became a party of pessimists but it is. It does not matter what the issue, the GOPTP's solution is either slash and burn it or do nothing.
Conservative fiscal responsibility is no longer a principle followed unless a democrat sits in the White House then every GOPer becomes a fiscal hawk, becomes concerned about the future, the deficit and the debt, our children and grandchildren--yet those same GOPers spent eight years spending without funding any of their legislation or expressing the least bit of concern about their children and grandchildren. Listening to Paul Ryan is a classic example of someone who threw his fiscal responsibility "principles" out the window the eight years of Bush 43 and voted YEA to double the debt and blow up the economy. Whether Paul Ryan ever actually had the "fiscal principle" in his DNA remains questionable since any person who heartily embraced the teachings of Ayn Rand as his guiding light should be allotted serious doubt as to their moral values--Rand was a selfish, greedy communist and an atheist. Being a fiscal hawk is not a virtue when it only applies half the time especially when it does not apply when republicans sit in the White House. Now Ryan preaches about how the USA must implement draconian spending cuts yet Ryan remained silent for eight years of Bush.
Climate change is real, the science proves it is real. If, as most scientists have reported, man is partly to blame, then man must also be part of the solution. The GOP's fatalistic approach is to do nothing because they prefer denying the science and arguing about the cause; or more likely, they simply prefer the campaign donations received from big oil, gas and coal. Once upon a time, Senator McCain argued that it does not matter who is to blame but we must err on the side of caution--in other words, stop fighting about who to blame and do what we can to slow it. Now, the GOPers laugh and mock the idea of clean, renewable wind energy, they mock and ridicule the idea of electric cars.
The GOP has become so fatalistic that they believe shooting massacres and gun-related deaths cannot be completely prevented so we should do nothing. After all, the NRA gives them campaign donations and "A" ratings are a thing to wear proudly while remaining silent at the twenty slaughtered 6 and 7 year old first graders.
The GOP has become fatalistic regarding winning elections. Our country is changing, has been for decades. The GOP has decided that if they cannot win national elections fairly following the rules in place for over two centuries, then change the rules to favor their side--rather than fix the party itself. Change the Voter ID laws, un-do the early voting especially in those areas which favor democrats; re-write the electoral college rules to favor republicans. These are the same rules that allowed republicans to win before, but with the election of President Obama in 2008, suddenly it is the rules which are flawed and not the GOP itself which is flawed. That is a truely fatalistic attitude.
Whether it is universal health care, social security, medicare, medicaid, gun control, renewable energy, climate change or the simple act of voting, the GOP has determined that those things are irrelevant; that those things have no place in our capitalistic society; that those things cannot or will not prevent tragedy so Americans should do nothing. Worse, the GOP has adopted the fatalistic attitude that if they cannot win elections fairly with the rules we have always had, then change the rules to rig the system...and destroy democracy in the process.
Such hatred in your post! No wonder our country is so divided.
Thank you Jody for writing what we're all feeling and seeing on a daily basis. I think the liberals/progressives all across the country are ready to come out in full force this year as we attempt to pass decent regulations. It's amazing what we can do together, as this past election proved.
Thank You Jody. Your voice of truth and reason is a pleasure!
Job1, it's nice to see you here each day. I always enjoy reading what you write.
Thank You Pat. Same here!
Gosh ProFreedumb - I guess you also find it hateful when one attempts to point out to a fatalistic alcoholic that they have a drinking problem.
Gosh RedDevPoS- I guess you also find it hateful when one attempts to point out to a fatalistic liberal what their party's habits of spending & taxation are going to do to their children's future. Please don't think I'm being hateful for trying to point out your own drinking problem- that is, of drinking the Kool Aid!
Jody---great post. I'm not sure if the GOP actually believes the fatalistic statements it makes or is that all it has left so it cling to them? Years ago they empowered a base by appealing to its worst instincts and now they are left with that base when the rest of the country has moved on. What else can they do but rig the game if they are unwilling to part with the base?
ProFreedom-5130956
The country is divided primarily because of RW talk radio and Faux sNewzzzzz.
The RW media dominates the airwaves now, and their multi-million dollar shock-jocks shovel their crap to an uneducated and paranoid audience.
The decline of America started with Rush Limbaugh in the late 1980's followed by Rupert Murdoch's Faux sNewzzzzz run by Roger Ailes.
Salud
Gee Pro - liberals spend and tax. Really, how many times did Reagan raise taxes. How about that gem, the first Bush. How many stimulus spending packages and shopping sprees implemented by Bush II. You might want to reconsider which party is the spend and tax party, assuming of course, you can disengage from your IV drip of KoolAid.
Gee red- how much has the deficit grown since Obama took office? But let's ignore that fact- we don't want to spin it into something other than what it is. No, let's go back a quarter century ago and blame our current woes on former presidents to make an excuse for the failings of our current one. Such a handy way to deflect the truth while blaming others. And how many stimulus & shopping sprees has the current administration engaged in? There ya go. National debt currently at $16.48 trillion and rising over $1 million every 50 seconds.
Tomas Grande:
With your Gary Owens avatar, I wonder if you have been interested over the years in the radio history of Rush Limbaugh. This is a guy who couldn't even complete a year of college, but was smart enough to dodge the draft. (If there's anything common to tough guy Republicans it is either draft-dodging and/or senility.) Anyway, college dropout, draft-dodging, drug addict Rush Limbaugh (that's his given name, but his third air name, moved from a podunk station to a slight upgrade in Pennsylvania where he was given the run off. (Seems there might have been some sexual improprieties arose. Mind you now, those are merely allegations, but an Internet search is mighty interesting.)
After bouncing around for several years he makes it to KFBK in Sacramento, where he replaces terminally insane Morton Downey, Jr. He is routinely excoriated by the locals for his dedication to prevarication, ignorance, and misogyny. (See allegations above.) After embarrassing KFBK on a routine basis, he is fired.
Today, he takes his devotion to ignorance to a national audience. Lying pays very well.
Golly Gee Whiz Pro, it never ceases to amaze how debts, deficits, government spending, and tax increases never mattered until Obama took office. Things that make you go HMMMMM !!
yes, amazing it is! Amazing the out of control spending this administration engages in. Amazing this 'gun control' that has spiraled out of control. Amazing how they want to let women fight on the front lines while veterans and their families go without mental health assistance while suicide rates are growing. Amazing!
@RedDEVPOS, They have always mattered ! They simply matter more now because the debt is $16.5 trillion, having risen $5.7 trillion under Obama's first term. By the time Obama leaves office, he will have DOUBLED the national debt of ALL his predecessors COMBINED !
Besides, Obama has already raised taxes twice ... once through Obamacare and again through the "fiscal cliff deal". It is now time for Obama to cut government spending as part of the "balanced approach" he campaigned upon.
I doubt Obama will make any effort at all .... just another empty campaign slogan that gulible lefties bought !
The truth hurts, doesn't it, Gosh-Almighty-ProFreedom?
Holy Jurisprudence Pro, you mean after a decade of war, the GOP finally wants to provide funding for veterans, something the GOP was firmly against because it was simply too costly? What's next, GOP approved spending on armor plated Humvees and protective battlefield clothing, something they have always vigorously opposed?
@Jack - ain't that a GAPH a gaffe!!
Thanks, friends; and thanks for adding to my observations as well as coming to my defense.
Perhaps Pro-Freedom can point to just exactly where the "hatred" is in my comment; it is more likely that my words hit a truth nerve for Pro so he took the typical right-wing stand and called it "hatred". Sorry, Pro, but I do see the GOP as a party with fatal vision and an even more fatal attitude. I see a short-sighted party that has yet to take a good, long look in the mirror at itself perhaps because they fear the Portrait of Dorian Grey might be what looks back.
I do not hate the GOP or conservatives, in fact, I wish they would get their act together and return to center right instead of radical and far right because we need two viable parties with different views and different thinking. Republicans have some good ideas, I just wonder why they no longer embrace them because President Obama is in the White House and proposed them. I do wonder what became of the real conservatives, the Teddy Roosevelts, the Lincolns, the Eisenhowers, the Fords. The GOP today is NOT the party of any of those great republican presidents; they aren't even the party of Reagan, not even close. I wonder why they allowed their principles to be usurped with the likes of Grover Norquist and Breitbart and Drudge. I do wonder why their principles are only valid when they lose. I do wonder why they no longer have optimism in their views but only pessimism along with gloom and doom. I do wonder why they so dislike minorities and women and why they feel only their views and their party have a place in this country--"I want my country back" but it isn't just their country, it is my country, too, and I love it as much as they do. And I prefer a country where, it tough times, our legislators join together and we fight the big problems together with compromise and with a realization that neither side is always right and neither side is always wrong and neither side has all the answers.
Change Democrats with GOP and then you are correct. The progressives are steering this country toward socialism and YOU FOLKS have no clue as long as your NEW GOD """THE TELEVISION""" tells you so. You are hypocrites to the core. This country is still blaming Bush for our mess that Oblamo has doubled even tripled in for four years and counting now. This is so obvious where it is going and you fools are giving away the very freedoms this country gave and protected for you...then who will be your voice when your voice will be shot/made illegal/squashed, etc...by the very administration you voted for?? WTF??
YOU PEOPLE mean to destroy the very freedoms that give you the freedoms to post your vileness on this site and it is amazingly hypocritical of you, and for the rest of us. Shame on you!!
JediUtahn-
Thank you for voicing what some of us are seeing very clearly happening right in front of our eyes. It is so sad how the libbie haters have turned their zombie act into such an affront to our basic freedoms. In a day and age of identity theft they won't even acknowledge how their very own party they voted for has sold them out to an activist organization no less! Hypocritical, yes sadly, they contradict themselves at every turn. Certainly, as the above vicious retorts prove!
Well I am sure the teaparty will definitely back the new republican amnesty plan. What happened to their fence?
A troubled mind, a gun and a family tragedy
By John Kelly
It was Valentine’s Day — Friday, Feb. 14, 1964 — and after school a classmate of Laurie Cox’s went to Laurie’s house in Falls Church to deliver a card. She knocked on the door but got no response.
Neighbors had seen Judith leave the house in the morning. She walked to the Montgomery Ward store at Seven Corners and went to the sporting goods department. She showed her driver’s license, proving that she was at least 21 — a store policy — and bought a .38-caliber Smith & Wesson revolver and some ammunition. She filled out a form indicating that the gun was for “home protection.” Then she walked home
Judith had been “depressed,” but that word hardly seems sufficient to describe her condition. She had been hospitalized for two months the previous year at a private Baltimore infirmary. After that, she was admitted to the veterans hospital in Perry Point, Md., for psychiatric treatment. (Judith was a former WAVE.) She was released to give birth to Timothy.
She shot the two younger children first — in two bedrooms, the baby resting in a red, plaid baby seat, Jody lying on his parents’ bed — then locked the bedroom doors with them inside.
Judith Cox waited for the two older children to come home from school. Laurie must have come home first. She was seated at a desk in her bedroom, sorting Valentines, when her mother came in and shot her. Then Danny came home; he didn’t make it past the kitchen.
Thomas Cox enjoyed smoking a pipe. Judith was allergic to the smoke, so he would go to the basement, settle into an aluminum patio rocker and puff away. That’s where Judith went. In her left hand were three notes scrawled on the backs of envelopes. In her right hand was the snub-nosed Smith & Wesson.
She raised it to her head and pulled the trigger.
After Thomas realized that Danny hadn’t just bumped into a cupboard, he broke down the door to the master bedroom and found Jody’s body. As a horrible reality dawned on him, he ran outside and then to a neighbor’s. He returned to the house and went from room to room, learning the enormity of what had happened.
He called the rescue squad. “Send five ambulances,” he said. “My whole family is dead.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/a-troubled-mind-a-gun-and-a-family-tragedy/2013/01/22/28274638-64ad-11e2-85f5-a8a9228e55e7_story.html?hpid=z9
___________________________________________________________
Would some kind of Waiting Period have functioned to avert this tragedy?
Dunno
Would coordination between Mental Health Services and Gun Purchasing Availability have averted this tragedy?
DamnifIKnow.
I do know that since 1964 little has been done. Wouldn’t want to inconvenience folks don’t you know. So Tragedies like this occur on a pretty much daily bases. We just don’t talk about it. Supposed to remain among the imponderables in our lives. Yet it affects all our Friends and Neighbors. Sometimes it changes their lives forever.
Seems like we’ve tried to sweep it under the rug for Forty Nine Years.
Time to take a little different tack on things don’t you think?
And if after five days, she got the gun with the same tragic consequences, then what? A ten day waiting list? A fifteen day waiting list? It's a mental health issue, not a gun issue. If she was denied a gun, who's to say she wouldn't have used a knife? There are so many unanswered questions from this terrible tragedy, yet to ban guns will not solve the issue.
The treatment of the mental health issue is more paramount. Yet, with the HIPAA laws (primarily, the Privacy part), I see a very slippery slope in getting this done.
IR -
Gun Control opponents say that guns are just a tool, and they shouldn't be regulated.
In a sense they are correct, guns are a tool - a very succesful tool.
If you want to kill someone else, they are a very effective tool. The chance of dying from a gunshot to the heart is 84%, while only 30% if you are stabbed in the heart.
You are over three times more likely to be killed in a robbery committed with a gun than when another weapon is used. You are also over three times more likely to die in a domestic violence incident if there is a gun in the house.
Guns are also an effective tool if you want to hurt yourself. Suicide attempts involving firearms are over twice as likely to result in death as attempts via Suffocation, and almost five times more likely than attempts via Poisoning.
So yes, Guns are tools. If you want to try and hurt yourself or others, they are tools with deadly efficiency. Why make them so easy to acquire and use?
Think about it -
The waiting period may have increased the chances her mood would have changed enough for her to consider her actions.
As noted above, you are much more likely to survive a stabbing than a shooting, and at least the children may have had a chance to avoid their mother or alert their father.
No one thinks common-sense measures like waiting periods, background checks, or limits on magazine sizes will solve all of the problems, but maybe it will at least make the odds a little better.
Ah yes Think But what if after five days she was discovered planing this? What about if there was some form of Communication from Mental Health Officials and she didn't get a Gun at all? Ain't it worth heading down that slippery slope if you save just one Kids Life? Time to start skiing 'cause obviously what we've been doing for sixty years ain't working. And you'll Yahoo's accuse folks like me of sticking our head in the sand.
If you can delay a mentally ill person from using a gun for even 5 days, it is worth doing. Guns provide a ready means to kill on impulse.
Don't conflate the problems of mental illness with gun violence. Each needs to be addressed separately. The Republicans in the state houses as well as in the Federal government have gutted spending on mental health issues, most particularly the community services needed to provide support to those suffering from mental illness. You WANT supported mental health centers, access to psychiatrists and therapists, supported independent living and group homes, supported job enclaves and job opportunities to keep those with a diagnosis healthy and functioning. That is what keeps these tragedies from happening.
Before you tell me I don't know what I am talking about, I am the parent of a young adult with mental illness. We fight these battles daily.
Thanks TNSEVOL and Newday. Let me make one thing perfectly clear. I own and utilize many Guns. I am licensed for Concealed Carry. I have at times been a Licensed Firearms Instructor. Nobody and I mean nobody on both the Left and Right are talking about taking any kind of gun away from any body but the NRA and it's Minority. Check it out if you don't believe me. It's simply a Talking Point. I will tell you what I am tired of however. I'm Way tired of using Mythology to continue to ignore the Problem. If you don't talk about it nothing is going to be done and that suits the Yahoo's just fine
IR---I wish you were right on this, but if the slaughter of 20 first-graders isn't enough for our elected officials to do everything in their power to address the situation, then I dread to think what might be.
IR -
I agree. I own guns and am a life-long hunter and shooter. I embrace my right to own guns, but can't ignore my responsibility to keep myself and others as safe as possbile from their potential misuse. I educate my son on the rules of gun safety, and utilize trigger locks and a gun safe.
It is also a fact that there is an undeniable statistical correlation between the levels of gun ownership per capita and the rate of gun deaths per capita. That doesn't mean we could or should ban all guns, but it does mean we should recognize the potential lethality that comes with owning a firearm.
IR, Do you support Sen. Feinstein's bill?
Lisa I'm Sorry but I haven't had time to completely go over Sen. Feinsteins bill so I can't give you a complete answer. I will say that on the whole I do support the concept as do I support the limiting of Clips, Background checks and closing Gun Show Loop Holes. I do not look at it as denying me my rights as you can see I'm very capable of upholding but more as a question of doing our utmost by making Gun Owners such as myself responsible for that right. If you exercise your Second Amendment rights so as to not effect anyone elses rights then we shouldn't be affected. If you don't exercise them in this fashion I have no problem with somebody taking a right that you don't have sense enough to appreciate away from you for a time. Hope that gives you a little something to go on.
Newday, IR & TNSEVOL--
You lifted my heart, THANK YOU! I'm glad there are reasonable people like you guys to help shape my opinion on guns.
I wasn't raised in a culture where guns were the norm and have always been terrified of what they could do. Typical suburban Philadelphia upbringing, for the most part, but definitely far removed from life on a farm where a gun is necessary, and hunting animals was left to the more rural areas.
I made sure that my kids were never around guns, and carefully interviewed families of their friends to determine if they had guns, and, if they did, how they were stored. So many accidents could be prevented by appropriate storage of guns! Common sense guidelines, that I'm sure you guys take for granted, need to be part of eligibility requirements for gun owners.
Please continue to make your voices heard.
Thank you, United. Right back at you.
IR, Thank you for your response. When I learned to shoot I went to a range and took lessons. My Instructor was a retired police officer. The class was all about safety and responsibility. I agree with background checks and enforcing those at gun shows. But who is going to do the background checks on the criminals.
Thank you United as we work away through this I'm sure that we can reach some kind of accommodation that while it doesn't make everyone happy does recognize and respects each others rights...........Lisa you and I could work this out to every bodies satisfaction over one evening and a bottle of Anejo.The Problem is I see it the Proliferation of Weapons that we have allowed to get into irresponsible hands(Criminals, Militias, Gangs) No law will completely eliminate this just slow it down some.If it saves just a few then it is worth it. I also don't have a problem with tacking five years on somebodies prison sentence for use of a weapon in the commission of a crime for instance. Make them tougher to get and harder to hold so to speak. And at the end of the day I do not have a problem with conducting my own Background Check at the end of my Stoeger if you come to do Harm to me and mine. But that's just me and I wouldn't trust somebody that I didn't know with any kind of gun or weapon unless I had some way to verify training and such like.
IR, excellent. Thanks for keeping this topic front and center. 49 years is a long time to keep pushing the subject aside because trying to fix it seems too hard, and because some thing if a total solution isn't possible, just do nothing.
IR, Can't believe you went through all that Anjeno already. I am going back to Mexico next month I will make sure I bring back some more. You and I could probably work on the gun problem better than the extremes in both parties. I hate to see our country so divided. Have a great day.
Excellent thoughts. This is the kind of debate and discussion needed everywhere including on Capital Hill. Responsible gun owners taking responsible positions with regards to their 2nd amendment rights but also recognizing the daily tragedies that play out across this country as a result of guns. I am not a gun owner but many in my family have owned or currently own hunting rifles and shotguns. I'm one of those people who really doesn't like being around guns; in general, they make me uncomforable so I consider it safer for me not to own one. Some people just should not own guns period. We need to put in place national laws that reduce the possibility of those people accessing weapons which would help reduce the numbers of such tragedies. Restrictions may not eliminate their ability to get a weapon or in some other way cause harm to others but it certainly can make it more difficult. I agree, improving mental health access is a critical part of this debate. I also agree that if someone's mental condition is such that they pose a threat to themselves, that means they possibly pose a threat to others either in their own family or a public place. While it may be a slippery slope, the result of failing to allow intervention or reporting of some type regarding mental health problems is a greater risk than the slope itself. Too often, the "slippery slope" makes a good excuse.
Nice that some of you people are talking about the mental health issues. That is the primary problem with these mass shootings. I can assure you that if they get these mental health issues squared away, you will see less of this. Making guns the main issue is beyond ridiculous
What's next...Interesting developments on the immigration reform front. The plan seems to be palpable.
I have often thought that a plan must address border security, identification, have a guest worker type system and increase the number of entry visas that are allowed. In addition it appears as if the plan will also address legislatively the "Dreamers." I agree that those that are affected should pay fines, back taxes and start behind the others that are already in place. However, they will at long last be able to begin a journey leading to citizenship.
I am warily optimistic that reform could be possible. Unfortunately as seen by the weak filibuster reform will a brazen Tea Party senator put an indefinte hold on this? However the biggest obstacle will be the Tea Party tainted House. I trust that the GOP in the House will put up a fight as a furious battle of angry, hateful rhetoric ensues.
@ yellowdog:
"They will at long last be able to begin a journey leading to citizenship"?
There is and has been an immigration law that allows their countrymen to apply for citizenship. So why could these people not have started the same journey?
The funny thing to me about the immigration debate is that the underground economy enables the illegal immigrants to stay here and who fuels that but the wealthy? They don't want illegal immigration but they want their yards landscaped and their houses cleaned and to hire workers in their businesses under the table.
frankinia - For one thing as it stands there is only a limited amount of visa applications that are accepted. They are restricted based on the country of origin, they are restricted based on the amount of education a person has. Granted a lot of the currently undocumented could have waited for a visa, but in all likely hood they would have been waiting and waiting and waiting, perhaps only to be denied years down the road. In many cases these people are coming for better opportunities, for economics to help them in their Present not the far future. They chose not to wait the years and years that is needed, nor do they have connections to get a visa.
I am not trying to pardon their choice, I am only talking about the reality of the situation. Instead of debates about what could have been done, it is time to talk about what can be done. The legislation if crafted thoroughly and fairly, could limit if not remove all substantial reasons for a person to skip past the rules.
Again, this legislation could address a problem. If you would rather pay more for produce, crops and services than by all means you should oppose this apparently sensible attempt at reform. If you would rather not have the undocumented pay their fair share in income taxes or pay fines than you should oppose this plan. If however, you understand that there are pros and not only cons to fixing the immigration system you should support this plan.
Steeler-
If it is indeed the filthy wealthy that want/need this done, do you think it makes a rats ass how much it costs? If there weren't illegals (more than likely represented by a "company" who provides the services) that would do it cheaper, they would pay more.
That being said, I have seen several of your ilk post on here that there are more 1%'ers that are libs that Cons. So tell your brethren to hire American.
And Yellowdog -
Tough, that's the law. Get it now?
Talkto - I was answering why they couldn't go by the long and legal process. I understand the current law, but whether I do are not isn't the real issue. The real issue is the millions in the shadows. Something can be done to improve their situation and at the same time help the US as a country know who is here, collect fines and income taxes from them etc.
I can't change the past, but by supporting a bill like this I can support a change for the future. I am not one to think that every bill is perfect or will solve everything, but again, doing nothing (the status quo) will not address anything. Even the most conservative understand that the economic and emotional impact of a deport em all plan is too high.
Perhaps a difference, I think something can be done, not to put words in your mouth, but maybe some people just want to complain.
frankinia, I'll add that the DREAMers are children brought here illegally by their parents, they didn't chose to come, their parents did. Most of them were quite young, many have no idea they weren't born here; this is the only country they know. Like so many waves of immigrants before them, these children are pushed by their parents to get study hard, get an education, pushed to earn top grades and to go to college because their parents want them to do better than they.
Steeler, that's why I say we should require welfare recipients to learn and do the jobs the illegals have been doing, once we deport them. There's no reason why any able bodied person couldn't do a minimum of 20hrs a week. It would give them job training and learn what it means to actually PROVIDE for your family.
Jaysus, Janine, are you still living prior to 1990...could you catch up and join us in the current century and understand that welfare requirements include work?
Or do you just want to hate?
@ jodi Like so many waves of immigrants before them, these children are pushed by their parents to get study hard, get an education, pushed to earn top grades and to go to college because their parents want them to do better than they.
I call BS. There are Dreamers who do that, but it is hardly a majority. Most all of the Spanish speaking immigrant families have parents who refuse to learn the English language. They don't care. That is whats been going on in Idaho for years. I will say the influx of Bosnian families that have moved into southwestern Idaho over the years, have all busted their AZZes to learn the language.
A question I have is why is it that in nearly all of the news coverage about immigration reform, you see Latino (Hispanic) people or families all over the screen? Why do you not see all of these Bosnians, eastern European, Asian families out there screaming? Its essentially one group of people.
Just watch what happens when jobs start getting routed primarily to Latino's that have followed all these regulations, that others have done before them, and are looking to work as well.
If the Republicans run the same type of hard right candidate in 2016 for President, they will lose.
They have to come back to the 21st Century, and they need to forget about the likes of Rick Perry, Newt Gingrich, Michele Bachmann, Rahn Paul, Sarah Palin, Marco Rubio, Paul Ryan, Herman Cain, and Rick Santorum. None of these folks can win.
Of course, Blowjob 1 .... we should let exremist lefties with no common sense pick our candidates for us ! LOL !!! Our country is headed towards another credit downgrade, a potential financial disaster .... and you libs continue to focus on secondary issues !!
Where are the spending cuts Obama promised ? Did he lie yet again ??
Jim, act you age and not your party. Daily you prove that you haven't a clue to what you are talking about.
Any credit downgrade is the fault of the Republicans, and the financial disaster already occurred under W. Bush is 2008.
Of course, jim; you were against the drunken spending (and I use that word deliberately) during the Cheney/Bush administration?
Show respect for other posters. The only thing you do is denigrate yourself when you use terms like you did in post 7.1.
Unless you are here to troll. Then carry on, you will get banned.
Now jim, be nice to Job1.....he likes to defend from the past as does newday
Source?
Job1 - Lest we forget Herman Cain, the 9-9-9 plan man. He is the epitome of the GOPTP party. A serious candidate for the most important job in the country. He alone gives us a glimpse of how seriously the GOP commitment is when it comes to filling the job as President. Seriously, the Godfather Pizza man? Why not throw it all in for the CEO of Pizza Hut. Here's an idea - how about running the CEO of Hostess. I hear the GOP loves themselves some unemployed Ho-Hos and Ding Dongs.
Our current president was a "community organizer", at least Herman Cain had a real job.
Herman Cain? His relevance is.....?
Post 7.7. So does your President.
Yes our current President is Community Organizer, a College Professor, Lawyer, Successful Book Author, State Senator, US Senator and President of the United States.
I saw nothing wrong with the 9-9-9 plan. That benefited every class of Americans.
I'd point the financial figure even before Bush and say that Greenspan had a huge hand in the economic collapse (Bush as well for going to war and lowering taxes at the same time - briliant?). Idiot Greenspan lowering interest rates to unheard of levels and keeping them low despite witnessing a potential bubble: another brilliant plan. He just didn't want to appear as a party pooper and raise interest rates.
crisp . . .
He was at that and excelled at it! And look how that skill set worked on his campaigns . . . maybe you ought to ask a few of your didn't-get-elected Republican businessmen to be community organizers. Just might make them a wee bit more likeable and in touch with the populace . . . just a thought . . . but that does require actual work AND organization.
OldDayYawning, Please don't make me laugh too hard this early .... when I see you criticize someone like SS who consistently attacks others frequently and in the most nasty language ... then and only then will your posts to me have some credibility !! I won't hold my breath because we both know you will not do it and will remain a hypocrite !
Oh, and by the way, its way past time for you extremist lefties to grow a pair and quit blaming Bush for everything ! When you play the blame game, you are simply admitting Obama is incapable of overcoming obstacles ... but then again, maybe that is the truth and your only resort is to make alibis for Obama ! The drunken spending was during Bush's last 2 years when Dems controlled the House ! Obama makes Bush look like a tightwad by comparison !
Address me with respect, or anticipate that this will be the only response you get.
Again: When you start posts out the way that you do, you tell everyone that you are a person of little thought, but much anger.
One cannot address the problems of this nation without looking at how the modern Presidencies have shaped it. The current problems started in Reagan's time, and although they were addressed in Clinton's BECAUSE BOTH PARTIES WERE DETERMINED TO ADDRESS THEM, the problems were exacerbated during Bush's time with his out of control spending, none of which was protested by his own party.
Until you understand that no Presidency evaporates when the occupant leaves office, you are not fit to comment on the issues at hand.
Now. If you wish to be taken seriously, address your anger issues. Otherwise, you will be ignored.
Respect must be earned, and you have never accomplished that ! You post the same partisan drivel over and over again choosing to insert your head in the sand, ignoring REAL issues that affect the financial viability of our country.
Your attempt to define me as "angry" is quite asinine ... you know little or nothing about me, yet that does not limit your preoccupation of throwing out self-serving "labels' nonetheless.
As usual, the partisan drivel emanating from your keyboard AGAIN and AGAIN tries to lay all blame on this country's financial issues on a prior President .... long since dead, and even longer out of office. If anything POSITIVE comes about in the financial world, you are quick to claim it .... if anything negative comes out, you are quick to BLAME it !
You are simply not BIG enough to tell me what I am fit to comment upon... particularly financial matters !
You shall be ignored for the troll that you are jim.
And yes. I will tell you what you are fit to comment on.
NOTHING!
Do have a great day, won't you?
You shall be "ignorant" ... troll that you are ! Do you really think your warped opinion matters to me anyway! LOL !! You arer suffering from "Delusions of Adequacy" !
Another liberal retreats from battle ......... oh how I will not miss his blather !
@ newday
Here's a valid question Newday. Why is it just hunky dorry that those on the left can post disgusting things here and you have nothing to say? If you tell me who, your more blind than I thought
I am addressing a specific disrespectful comment made to me, Jay. If you wish to address posters that you think are over the line, be my guest.
guess we have to wait and see what happens...
his appointments have been stellar
Janet Incompetano is anything but "stellar".
jim -
texas didn't say what kind of stars. He might have been comparing them to black holes considering the intelligence and ethics of Obama's appointees suck.
.
Hatred is a two-way street...
Three fans of the football club Beitar Jerusalem were arrested on Saturday for chanting anti-Muslim slogans and unfurling signs alluding to Beitar's unofficial tradition of refusing to sign Arab and Muslim players. Last week, club owner Arkadi Gaydamak announced his intent to bring two players from Chechnya who are also Muslims to the team.
"The two players from Chechnya are coming to Beitar. As far as I'm concerned, there is no difference between a Jewish player and a Muslim player," Gaydamak said.
Beitar's hardcore fans call themselves "La Familia" and have a history of intolerance. Beitar has in the past faced punishment in the past by the Israel Football Association for its fans behavior.
Center stage, CENTER STAGE. Immigration has not left center stage, the stupid democrats wants you to believe that it wasn't on in the first place. Or should I say that bastard up in the white house wants you to believe it......
The wingers are realizing we are not a Right-Center nation after all.
in exchange for votes, these SOB politico's are willing to sell the working american down the road...
The Republican new found religion on immigration makes me laugh. Three months ago they were lining up behind the Myth who ran on making life so miserable for immigrants and minorities that they would be forced to "self-deport". What happened to that plan? Oh yeah, they lost 91% of the African American vote and 78% of the Latino vote. Now all of a sudden, the dream act is "bipartisan"? Give me a break, it seems they are only able to list three republicans willing to put their names on this so far.
Count on the party of stupid to hold up any vote on immigration reform. We'll be talking about this in 2017 assuming that we don't fix congress in 2014 by ejecting the party of stupid.
Let's be honest.
Senators are agreeing to create a second path to citizenship for those who for years have refused to apply for citizenship according to our current laws. Not only that, but they have ignored other laws by giving fraudulent information in order to work and some even ignore the requirement to obtain a Drivers License.
So will the final bill also forgive all of the dishonest employers that hired them illegally?
And what happens to the millions who have applied for citizenship and are waiting patiently in line?
In true Obama style, let's reward criminal behavior.
No, that was Reagan, who granted amnesty.....
Houston! "For simplicity,............"
And the reason that you think the Democrats don't gerrymander as well is because???????????????
In California, the Democrats have only 42% of the registered voters, yet win 67% of the legislative seats.
In AZ, the GOP is 33% of the registered voters, yet elects a swarm of complete TP NUTS to state offices.
And Republicans represent a mere 29%. Got a point in there somewhere?
http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/ror/ror-pages/15day-general-12/hist-reg-stats1.pdf
The intent of the census is to provide an accounting of citizens in the US so that Congressional districts can be balanced every year to try and make the level of representation equal. If we actually wanted to do something fair, we would outlaw gerrymandering...just make it a rule that the redistricting should have the same number of people and the smallest physical boundries. That would keep these ridiculous boundries from being drawn.
As for what was being considered witht he Electoral college...let us not forget that the EC began when votes were delivered by horseback days after being cast. Breaking it down as one electoral vote directed by the result of each district with the remaining two votes going to the popular winner certainly seems fair. If nothing else, it makes other states count, rather than every election being decided by ten or so states.
Roy, if your point is that both sides use Gerrymandering to unfair advantage, I agree. Wouldn't it then be better to go to a straight popular vote for offices that gets rid of that?
Furthermore, I think districts should be drawn by population size. If 90% of your populace is in the state's major city, well that's where 90% of the districts should be!
ROY WILSON-336103, lying about what I wrote in # 1.47:
I explicitly said that Democrats gerrymander too, you moron.
Here's what I wrote:
"... basically the trick to gerrymandering that can get around the Voting Rights Act. Both parties do it, but only one party has been plotting to make this anti-democratic system the basis for winning the presidency."
Notice I said BOTH PARTIES, idiot. But ONLY the Republicans are trying to gerrymander the presidential election as well as the Congressional elections because they can't win the presidency fair and square.
RedDevPS
The only point he's got is the point on the top of his head.
falconear
Districts MUST by law be drawn to have roughly equal populations. Gerrymandering is a very sly way of getting undemocratic outcomes without violating the one-person-one-vote rule. See what I wrote in #1.47 above. I think there should be a law passed at the federal level that ALL states must use non-partisan committees to determine the boundaries of congressional districts.
Assuming Congress passes such a bill what does the government plan to do when the illegals decide that they really don't want to register, pay a fine, pay back taxes and throw away their fraudulent social security cards? I mention this because as a group, they have already demonstrated a contempt for our laws and a willingness to ignore them when it suits them. You might want to think about this.
Bust EMPLOYERS. It's the job magnet that brings people.
Would you risk breaking a law (which is actually minor compared to excessive speeding tickets - it's a misdemeanor) if it meant you could feed your kids and they would be better off?
Illegal is illegal, no matter what freaky spin you put on it!!!!!! What a true failure!!!!!!! This really is disgusting on too many levels!!!!! I am 56 years old and have lived in Utah my entire life and have had a drivers license for 40 years and now I have to prove I am, who I am because of all of these evil illegal’s. Sorry, but they all need to go home!!!!!!! Stealing peoples names, SS#, and their life is so not who I think should be an American!!!!!!!!!
thanks Kim from Utah! more practical solutions to real world problems!!
So you were alive when the idol of many conservatives, Ronald Reagan, granted amnesty to how many millions?
Identity theft is an enormous huge explosive issue in this Country!!!!!!! When Regan was President very, very few people had even heard of identity theft or even experienced it. The solution is not to reward people for breaking the law!!!!!! We should slam our open boarder door shut!!!!! Send all the illegal’s home, along with their drug cartels, their gangs and their drugs. Bring all our soldiers home and have them protect our Country, instead of someone else’s.
So only minorities steal identities? Really Kim?
Wow!!!!! Multiple, huge failures on ever single level, now make rights!!!!! Really!!!! Yes, there are identity thefts that are done by other people, but the largest portion of all identity thefts that are long term and catastrophic to someone life are done by illegal’s!!!! Stealing someone’s credit card number can not compare to stealing someone’s, name, SS#, and their life!!!!!!
Provide a source to support what you say Kim.
NNDR . . .
She's wrong. I had to post a link to prove that not everyone in Utah is that __________________. (your choice)
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2012/06/public-study-illegal-immigrants-commit-less-crime-than-americans/
“Illegal, but Not Undocumented - Identity Theft, Document Fraud, and Illegal Employment”
cis.org/Identity Theft (Center for Immigration Studies)
Article -
“llegal immigrants are not “undocumented.” They have fraudulent documents such as counterfeit Social Security cards, forged drivers licenses, fake “green cards,” and phony birth certificates. Experts suggest that approximately 75 percent of working-age illegal aliens use fraudulent Social Security cards to obtain employment.”
“Most (98 percent) Social Security number (SSN) thieves use their own names with stolen numbers. The federal E-Verify program, now mandated in only 14 states, can detect this fraud. Universal, mandatory use of E-Verify would curb this and stop virtually 100 percent of child identity theft.”
And of course there is a ton more stats in the article.
Herron... Reagan granted amnesty because the border was supposed to be secured... which obviously didn't happen. And Newday, Kim didn't say only minorities steal identities - stop your illusion please.
TOO ALL THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GRANT CITIZENSHIP TO THE ILLEGALS HERE NOW .....
WHAT IF ANOTHER 10-20 MILLION ILLEGALS COME....THEN WHAT ...??? ... GRANT THEM CITIZENSHIP ??? IF THAT'S THE CASE- CUT THE PRETENSE AND HAVE A TOTALLY OPEN BORDER AVAILABLE TO ALL . THIS COUNTRY IS BEING DESTROYED AND YOU REFUSE TO SEE IT !!
Kim ...
http://cis.org/Illegal
Thanks for the attempted link! As that's a pro immigration site to assist immigrants I took some time to look it over. NONE of the stats you've noted above appear ANYWHERE on the cite. N O N E.
www.cis.org/IdentityTheft - I am looking at the article right now. I guess you totally do not like the stats.
Thanks, Layton; that is exactly what I thought. Maybe Kim could do us all a favor and deal with the racism she seems to suffer from.
Layton: The author of the article that Kim references is a hard right neocon. That's about all you need to know about his credibility.
This is entire thing is a freaking slap in the face to all immigrants that came to this Country LEGALLY. These LEGAL immigrants spent a lot of hard earned time, money and effort to become legal citizens of America. These illegal’s have done absolutely nothing but break one law after another and you want to reward them for their effort to break laws!!!!!!! The article is full of statistics that you think should be ignored.
The author of, Illegal, but Not Undocumented. Biography of Ronald W. Mortensen, PhD, is a retired career U.S. Foreign Service Officer and former Society for Human Resource Management senior executive. www.cis.org/IdentityTheft
“Welfare Use by Immigrant Households with Children”. “A Look at Cash, Medicaid, Housing, and Food Programs”
Here's your source, the Center for Immigration Studies;
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Center_For_Immigration_Studies
Now that we've exposed the White Supremacist leanings of your source feel free to complain about "Liberal racism."
The Center for Immigration Studies is an independent, non-partisan, non-profit, research organization. Since our founding in 1985, we have pursued a single mission – providing immigration policymakers, the academic community, news media, and concerned citizens with reliable information about the social, economic, environmental, security, and fiscal consequences of legal and illegal immigration into the United States.
The Center's research was cited by Justice Kennedy in his opinion in Arizona v. United States, on June 25, 2012, as evidence of Arizona's problem with crime committed by illegal aliens
Doubling down on White Supremacy, eh?
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Federation_for_American_Immigration_Reform
let Jim and Joe and the rest of the gang enjoy their fun and glee about the recess appointments. they will have very little to celebrate for the foreseeable future so please don't spoil their fun on this.
The best thing will be to change the whole system to be points based like in Canada. If you speak English (SAT or TOEFL test) you get points. If you have a job you get points. If you have family members living legally in the US you get points. The more education you have the more points you get.
When you get passed the threshold you can apply for documents. Of course, same you have to have clean criminal background.
If you were illegal, you would have to pay penalty and back taxes if you own any.
Then put in place easy, fair system to get low skill temporary labor, put in place worker verification system and go after the employers who hire illegals.
There is simple, common sense solution to this problem - it's not rocket science...
It is interesting that Republicans are now eager to talk about immigration reform. They have spent years demonizing Hispanics, whether they are legal or illegal. Now they have discovered that they need Hispanic voters and they're trying to undemonize Hispanics. Unfortunately, their base is not so eager to suddenly change ideology. So what happens now?
It isn't as if either side, Democrat or Republican, has been blameless in creating this problem. Republicans have given lip service to getting rid of illegal aliens while Republican employers have flocked to employ these same illegal aliens, in large part because they can pay them below minimum wage since illegals can't run to the authorities to complain. So the Republicans rich donors don't really want immigration reform. They like all those illegals being available for exploitation.
Democrats have pandered to Hispanic voters by pleading the case of illegal immigrants. But they haven't managed to write legislation that will alter the status of illegal immigrants.
The Democrats are in a better position on this one because they have not demonized the illegals. So they can support immigration reform without offending their base. Republicans have a far more uphill battle, since their base still believes illegals have horns. Going to be an interesting debate.
@underemployed: If you go back and read some history on the immigration proposals from past president's including Reagan and Bush W. you'll discover that the Democrats are the jerks who shot down legislation to reform immigation. Now they want to appear to be the "good guys" only because they want the Hispanic vote.
Quick Obummer. Give away what's left of the country before the rest of the politicians get ahold of it. Gotta buy them votes. To hell with the black voters who you rode in with. Now your dancing with the latinos. Yep, uphold and protect the constitution, that's your oath, not "buy votes for my buddies".
Like when Ronald Reagan gave amnesty to millions???
I think it is a shame that so many have come here illegally. In a perfect world we would be able to send all of those people back to their country and prevent them from returning until they can go through the legal process. In fact, it would be nice to turn back the clocks and prevent these people from ever arriving illegally. However, this is not a perfect world and time travel isn't possible. All that we are left with now is the result. A pathway to citizenship will hopefully create a larger tax base for Americans...hopefully
Incredible that some in the GOP would like to see the electoral college changed to steal future elections. The only way that an election can and should be fair is by the majority. No election should end with the popular vote not matching the winner. Imagine an election result where even though more people voted for Obama in OH, PA, VA, and the United States, Romney would still win!
Legal Immigration is fine with me, so how about getting in line like everyone else, respecting our nation and laws and come here legally.
It is a done deal...they are here. This is the reality that we have to move forward with. We cannot afford to keep sending people back...only to return. This simply isn't sustainable. Both parties recognize this now (although it took the loss of a Presidential election to make it more evident). That battle has been lost. Hopefully we can track and tax these people now!
Out ! Out demon !! Take your BS advertising somewhere else !!