White House gun proposals and a look back at past mass shootings

If the White House gun violence policy announced today had been in effect, would it have changed the outcome of recent mass shootings?

It's impossible to say for certain, but here's a look at what it might have meant.

NEWTOWN -- A tough assault weapons ban might have blocked the sale of the Bushmaster XM-15 that Adam Lanza's mother bought legally and which police say he used to kill all his victims in the school.  A ban on high-capacity magazines might also have reduced the killing power of the weapons he brought to the school.

Jason Reed / Reuters

President Barack Obama signs executive orders on gun violence during an event at the White House in Washington, January 16, 2013.

AURORA -- As with Newtown, a ban on assault weapons and high-capacity magazines might have reduced the killing power that James Holmes brought into the movie theater.

TUCSON -- Federal law bars gun sales to anyone who "is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance."  When Jared Loughner attempted to enlist in the Army, he admitted he was a drug user.  That information was never reported to the FBI for inclusion in the background check database, because a Justice Department policy dating from the Clinton administration directed federal agencies not to report information volunteered by drug users, for fear that it would deter drug users from seeking treatment. 

We are waiting to hear from the administration on whether President Obama's executive actions announced today will rescind that Clinton-era policy.

VIRGINIA TECH -- The dealers who sold Seung Hui Cho the guns he used in the Virginia Tech shooting followed the law to the letter, because there was no information in the system indicating that he was not qualified to buy a firearm.  Federal law bans gun sales to anyone found by a court to be a danger to himself or others because of mental illness, but under the law then in effect in Virginia, the state entered people like Cho into the gun check computers only if they'd actually been admitted as patients to a hospital. Virginia has since eliminated that loophole to bring its practices in line with federal law. 

As for requiring universal background checks, two examples come to mind:

COLUMBINE -- Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were both under age 18, the minimum age under federal law to buy a rifle or shotgun from a licensed gun dealer. They recruited an 18-year-old Columbine High School senior to help them buy several guns used in the killings. The three went to a gun show in Adams County, Colorado and bought a semiautomatic assault rifle and two shotguns with cash.  Klebold and Harris also bought an assault pistol from a private seller who had bought it at the gun show. These were the four weapons used in the Columbine attack.  

L.A. JEWISH COMMUNITY CENTER -- In 1999, Buford Furrow, a white supremacist, shot and killed a letter carrier then entered the LA Jewish Community center and shot five other people, including three children. He bought the gun, without a background check, at a gun show in Washington state.  As a convicted felon, he could not have passed a federal background check. 

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Next we will hear Lapierre or whatever his name is say his NRA is ready to provide a member fully armed to cover every school in the country, but only members that did not get their background checks when they purchased their assault weapons and super magazine so they can mow down about 50 before reloading. Lapierre, that sounds french, hmm Napoleon's gene pool?

  • 2 votes
Reply#29 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:50 PM EST

Barack Hussein Obama, that sounds Muslim to me!

  • 1 vote
#29.1 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:38 PM EST
Reply

The one common thread too many people here are missing is we need to control the sale of guns not ban weapons. I am not a gun owner nor an advocate but simply banning assault weapons is a joke. There are laws against illegal drugs yet they are plentiful on the street and just because the government bans a weapon doesn't mean they won't still be available. There needs to be an end to gun shows where guns can be bought without a background check, there needs to be a way to track a weapon and hold that owner responsible for any crime committed with their guns and there also has to be a point where patient confidentiality can no longer take precedence over the safety of society. I realize that if the mentally ill know their actions can be reported to the police or the courts they may not seek help but if someone does get treated for mental illness then there has to be a data base that has to be searched before a gun can be sold to that individual. Go ahead curse the NRA stand there with your arms folded and your smug liberal faces and ban assault weapons but I guarantee you it wont stop sh*t until we stop allowing all guns to be sold without a through background check and a better data base of those with mental illness. I hope the widow of Jonathan Blunk sues the crap out of the University of Colorado and Dr. Lynne Fenton and wins and a precedence is set that even those who treat the mentally ill have a responsibility to protect society at large and report it to authorities and I would love to see the laws tightened for those who provide someone with a weapon used in a crime or mass shooting be arrested and be held responsible either criminally or financially.

  • 1 vote
Reply#30 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:51 PM EST

want to compare past mass murders look at this list and see if you can spot the connection

http://ssristories.com/index.php?sort=date

maybe someone needs to ask Big Pharma about this connection

    Reply#31 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:52 PM EST

    The NRA speaks for the vast minority of Americans!

    • 2 votes
    Reply#32 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:00 PM EST

    The day I can carry a gun in the open into the visitors gallery of Congress is the day I will support no gun restrictions. Until that time all votes against gun control are hypocritical. Reagan supported open carry until the day several people walked into the Capital building in Scramento, which was legal at the time. He immdeiately was in favor of restricting guns on Capital grounds.

    Now there is your right wing hypocrit.

    • 3 votes
    Reply#33 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:30 PM EST

    Looks like the NRAs " More dead kids? Oh well" attitude is coming back to bite them in the butt.

    • 2 votes
    Reply#34 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:33 PM EST

    I read where multiple minors committed atrocities with stolen or otherwise illegally obtained firearms.Lanza murdered his Mom and stole her legally purchased guns.Virg.Tech. monster spent several hours killing,where was security response,I wonder if he packed a lunch.It wasn't the tip of the iceberg that sank the Titanic.

    • 1 vote
    Reply#35 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:27 PM EST

    Obama cannot change the U.S. Constitution. He would like to do that, but he will NEVER be able to do it. He is an illegal fool.

      Reply#36 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:40 PM EST

      Life must really suck being a liberal, progressive, communist democrat.

        Reply#37 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:42 PM EST

        There are two prerequisites for turning a free country into a dictatorship: #1) Control the flow of information; #2) Disarm the people.

        I don't think it is coincidence that protections against these are #1 and #2 in the Bill of Rights.

        • 2 votes
        Reply#38 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:51 PM EST

        Anyone can own a rifle, shotgun or handgun who is legally allowed to do so. To me, assault weapons are like hand grenades, rocket launchers and militray grade explosives; they are designed and meant for one thing...killing. This isn't about the second amendment or taking peoples' guns away. This is about a common sense approach to an all too familiar problem.

        • 2 votes
        #38.1 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:58 PM EST

        The Department of Homeland Security just purchased enough small arms ammo to kill the entire population five times over, and has the "assault weapons" to put them in. If, as you say, "they are designed and meant for one thing...killing," then we should all arm ourselves ... against the DHS!

        • 2 votes
        #38.2 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:56 PM EST

        The 2nd amendment was originally intended to help southern slave owners control their slaves. It has nothing to do with what weapons we are allowed to own.

        PS: All of my guns are legal according to that New York law.

        Daily Kos: The Second Amendment was Ratified to Preserve Slavery

          #38.3 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:30 PM EST

          miklkit----Your kinda running on empty buddy. You had get a good dose of education.

          • 1 vote
          #38.4 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:54 PM EST
          Reply

          Does anyone remember The Kent State shootings. lets start with banning all toy gun sales in this country from this country and the rest of the world. lets go back to when England wanted to rule this country. take away all the guns from those who died to protect our freedoms. where would we be now? Let our goverment throw away our hard earned money to the rest of the world and then make us all pay for it . and now we owe money to some other foreign country compliments of our goverment with out our permission. lets all turn in our guns and see what happens next. Let us not fall pray to those who will take away our rights away . Impeach those in power before they kill us all. Kind of like a movie , The Last Stand. WHERE Do We The People Stand? I wish George Washington, Thomas Jefferson , Ben Franklin and all those that signed the Constitution were still here to stand up for our rights like we as true Americans should be doing right now . dont give up our freedoms. not anyone. dont let our goverment change our Constitution that was written to protect us all . AMEN

          GOD BLESS AMERICA

          • 1 vote
          Reply#39 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:53 PM EST

          First of all, all of these shootings were done by people who acquired their weapons in a short window of time before they committed their murders. If the ban goes into effect now, those who already have assault rifles and haven't used them probably won't, thus any new purchases would preclude this from happening again. Second, mental health services because of cuts mainly consist of psychiatrists refilling prescriptions after a 1/2 hour visit from a patient. Anybody, unless they are actively psychotic can fool a psychiatrist into thinking they are not a danger. With adequate funding and the help of insurance companies paying for mental health services, active therapy is a better way to assess whether someone is a danger rather than hoping pills alone will do the job. This would preclude the "medicate first, ask questions later" model of mental health which most agencies, private and government, adhere to. Thirdly, sharing information with other agencies will not preclude many from pursuing drug rehab. Most either go because they are court mandated or are wealthy enough to afford it. Making it more available through funding would make addicts much more likely to go to rehab than to keep them away no matter what the reporting policies are. As a combat veteran, I know two thing: 1) Assault rifles are made to kill finally and efficiently. An assault rifle with a banana clip will do that job even more finally and efficiently; and 2) There is no reason for a civilian of any kind to have an assault rifle in his home except for the fact he wants it and, at this point, can legally have it. I think the safety of our citizenry is more important than someone's selfish wants and needs. I am not against hunting rifles, shotguns or handguns. We do have a second Amendment. However, the nees of the many most often outweigh the wants of a few. This is one of those decisions which should be made because it is the right thing to do not because of ego and profit motives.

          • 2 votes
          Reply#40 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:54 PM EST

          Never see this reported here MSNBC!!!!

          “Eric Harris age 17 (first on Zoloft then Luvox) and Dylan Klebold aged 18 (Columbine school shooting in Littleton, Colorado), killed 12 students and 1 teacher, and wounded 23 others, before killing themselves. Klebold’s medical records have never been made available to the public.

          Jeff Weise, age 16, had been prescribed 60 mg/day of Prozac (three times the average starting dose for adults!) when he shot his grandfather, his grandfather’s girlfriend and many fellow students at Red Lake, Minnesota. He then shot himself. 10 dead, 12 wounded.

          Cory Baadsgaard, age 16, Wahluke (Washington state) High School, was on Paxil (which caused him to have hallucinations) when he took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates hostage. He has no memory of the event.

          Chris Fetters, age 13, killed his favorite aunt while taking Prozac.

          Christopher Pittman, age 12, murdered both his grandparents while taking Zoloft.

          Mathew Miller, age 13, hung himself in his bedroom closet after taking Zoloft for 6 days.

          Kip Kinkel, age 15, (on Prozac and Ritalin) shot his parents while they slept then went to school and opened fire killing 2 classmates and injuring 22 shortly after beginning Prozac treatment.

          Luke Woodham, age 16 (Prozac) killed his mother and then killed two students, wounding six others.

          A boy in Pocatello, ID (Zoloft) in 1998 had a Zoloft-induced seizure that caused an armed stand off at his school.

          Michael Carneal (Ritalin), age 14, opened fire on students at a high school prayer meeting in West Paducah, Kentucky. Three teenagers were killed, five others were wounded..

          A young man in Huntsville, Alabama (Ritalin) went psychotic chopping up his parents with an ax and also killing one sibling and almost murdering another.

          Andrew Golden, age 11, (Ritalin) and Mitchell Johnson, aged 14, (Ritalin) shot 15 people, killing four students, one teacher, and wounding 10 others.

          TJ Solomon, age 15, (Ritalin) high school student in Conyers, Georgia opened fire on and wounded six of his class mates.

          Rod Mathews, age 14, (Ritalin) beat a classmate to death with a bat.

          James Wilson, age 19, (various psychiatric drugs) from Breenwood, South Carolina, took a .22 caliber revolver into an elementary school killing two young girls, and wounding seven other children and two teachers.

          Elizabeth Bush, age 13, (Paxil) was responsible for a school shooting in Pennsylvania

          Jason Hoffman (Effexor and Celexa) – school shooting in El Cajon, California

          Jarred Viktor, age 15, (Paxil), after five days on Paxil he stabbed his grandmother 61 times.

          Chris Shanahan, age 15 (Paxil) in Rigby, ID who out of the blue killed a woman.

          Jeff Franklin (Prozac and Ritalin), Huntsville, AL, killed his parents as they came home from work using a sledge hammer, hatchet, butcher knife and mechanic’s file, then attacked his younger brothers and sister.

          Neal Furrow (Prozac) in LA Jewish school shooting reported to have been court-ordered to be on Prozac along with several other medications.

          Kevin Rider, age 14, was withdrawing from Prozac when he died from a gunshot wound to his head. Initially it was ruled a suicide, but two years later, the investigation into his death was opened as a possible homicide. The prime suspect, also age 14, had been taking Zoloft and other SSRI antidepressants.

          Alex Kim, age 13, hung himself shortly after his Lexapro prescription had been doubled.

          Diane Routhier was prescribed Welbutrin for gallstone problems. Six days later, after suffering many adverse effects of the drug, she shot herself.

          Billy Willkomm, an accomplished wrestler and a University of Florida student, was prescribed Prozac at the age of 17. His family found him dead of suicide – hanging from a tall ladder at the family’s Gulf Shore Boulevard home in July 2002.

          Kara Jaye Anne Fuller-Otter, age 12, was on Paxil when she hung herself from a hook in her closet. Kara’s parents said “…. the damn doctor wouldn’t take her off it and I asked him to when we went in on the second visit. I told him I thought she was having some sort of reaction to Paxil…”)

          Gareth Christian, Vancouver, age 18, was on Paxil when he committed suicide in 2002, (Gareth’s father could not accept his son’s death and killed himself.)

          Julie Woodward, age 17, was on Zoloft when she hung herself in her family’s detached garage.

          Matthew Miller was 13 when he saw a psychiatrist because he was having difficulty at school. The psychiatrist gave him samples of Zoloft. Seven days later his mother found him dead, hanging by a belt from a laundry hook in his closet.

          Kurt Danysh, age 18, and on Prozac, killed his father with a shotgun. He is now behind prison bars, and writes letters, trying to warn the world that SSRI drugs can kill.

          Woody ____, age 37, committed suicide while in his 5th week of taking Zoloft. Shortly before his death his physician suggested doubling the dose of the drug. He had seen his physician only for insomnia. He had never been depressed, nor did he have any history of any mental illness symptoms.

          A boy from Houston, age 10, shot and killed his father after his Prozac dosage was increased.

          Hammad Memon, age 15, shot and killed a fellow middle school student. He had been diagnosed with ADHD and depression and was taking Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.”

          Matti Saari, a 22-year-old culinary student, shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine.

          Steven Kazmierczak, age 27, shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amounts of Xanax in his system.

          Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen, age 18, had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School – then he committed suicide.

          Asa Coon from Cleveland, age 14, shot and wounded four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon was on Trazodone.

          Jon Romano, age 16, on medication for depression, fired a shotgun at a teacher in his New York high school.

          Missing from list… 3 of 4 known to have taken these same meds….

          What drugs was Jared Lee Loughner on, age 21…… killed 6 people and injuring 14 others in Tuscon, Az

          What drugs was James Eagan Holmes on, age 24….. killed 12 people and injuring 59 others in Aurora Colorado

          What drugs was Jacob Tyler Roberts on, age 22, killed 2 injured 1, Clackamas Or

          What drugs was Adam Peter Lanza on, age 20, Killed 26 and wounded 2 in Newtown Ct

          Roberts is the only one that I haven’t heard about being on drugs of some kind.”

          • 1 vote
          Reply#41 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:55 PM EST

          What you are speaking of here is a crime in itself. The crime of putting people on a dangerous mood altering drugs without being adequately monitored. The results have become all too frighteningly apparent. Society, as a whole, especially advocates for the medical model approach to mental health, contribute to the problem. I don't see any difference in a bartender being responsible for an alcohol related death after serving alcohol to an intoxicated person than I do for a psychiatrist or an insurance company bean counter being responsible when an inadequately monitored mental patient kills people as a result of a reaction to drugs which increases his mental illness.

            #41.1 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:09 PM EST

            This is one of the biggest problems right now. Too many people turn a blind eye and deaf ear on this. I fail to understand why this isn't discussed more. The pharmaceutical lobby is greater than the gun and anti-gun lobbies combined i suppose.

              #41.2 - Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:01 PM EST
              Reply

              The NRA's position is that mentally ill people will always be able to acquire guns, no matter what restrictions are in place. By the same logic, you don't need doors in your house, because burglars will always find a way in.

              • 4 votes
              Reply#42 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:32 PM EST

              Aside to some of the comments from this article, this article is the dumbest thing I've read today. First off, this proves nothing. Going back and saying if certain laws would have been enacted in hindsight would have prevented these tragedies is naïve at best. This is assuming that with the laws in place, the events would have been ceteris paribus.

              First off, any psychologist or sociologist will say that when someone has the intent to kill and the mental will to kill they will kill. The only thing that the waiting period for a handgun or the inconvenience of finding a weapon may possibly prevent is a crime of passion; a situation where someone isn't thinking clearly and is in the heat of the moment. The criminals that are performing mass murders are not passion crimes. They are wackos who's brains process things in a manner we really don't understand. So to say that if there was an assault rifle ban Newtown wouldn't happen is a farce.

              Secondly, let's look at what the definition of an assault rifle is. We like to use this term like it's been clearly defined. Really it hasn't. All the government coins as an assault rifle is a rifle that has one more STYLE characteristics of a military rifle. The keyword that I've caps is STYLE. This does not mean component, it means looks like. The "assault rifles" people are discussing are not military grade weapons, they are merely a semi-automatic .22, .223., or 5.56. That's all. The only things that differs them from a hunting a rifle is a clip where the standard stock click is not an extended clip.

              Thirdly, we had an assault rifle ban during Columbine. We had an assault rifle ban from 1993 to 2004. Inner city drug warfare didn't die down and we still had Columbine. This just disproves this article's assertion Columbine would have been prevented.

              Finally, to the yayhoos that say the only solution is to eliminate guns, you're idiots. We tried to ban alcohol, we've tried to ban illicit drugs. What's happened? Underground crime syndicates who only commit more violent acts. The solution is not to ban or to limit from/to law abiding citizens. The solution is to figure out how to prevent guns from entering the hands of those who's rights should be limited, either by being declared mentally incapable, having a violent past, or even a past filled with drug and alcohol abuse. That should be the start. Limit the clip size if you like. But banning "Assault rifles" will not do anything but waste time and it sure as hell would not have prevented mass crimes made by unstable individuals.

                Reply#43 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:44 PM EST

                Anderson,

                "First off, any psychologist or sociologist will say that when someone has the intent to kill and the mental will to kill they will kill."

                Your quote above is 100% inaccurate. What psychologist provide as input is if someone has the urge to kill or kill themselves, they need an available weapon. This is why the suicide rate of gun owners is so much higher than non gun owners and the family homicide rate for gun owners is so much higher than non gun owners. Guns are the most effective tool for killing. That is what they are designed to do and their primary purpose--to kill living things.

                  #43.1 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:31 PM EST
                  Reply

                  China man entered grade school with knife and murdered 8 children. He was executed. America is violent, Americns are violent. Even with all the new lws...bad guys will always have guns and bad people will always kill people. Armed police must be in every school. Streets must have search checkpoints to screen cars coming and going into bad areas of cities. America's freedom has been jeopardinzed by freedom which allows bad guys to have guns and buy ammo. Institute better policing to get the bad guys off of the streets and then talk to all of the scared law abiding people who have guns (and assault rifles). I am OK with metal detectors located on the sidewalks, shopping malls, subways and bus stations...anything to stop and arrest all of the bad guys. Our elected officials are only white washing the real dangers in America by only looking at the easy part (banning of certain guns). How about some serious federal assistance to police our country better...like other countries are doing.

                    Reply#44 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:48 PM EST

                    How come the Fort Hood murders are not on the list ? Must not fit the RULERS agenda somehow .

                      Reply#45 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:10 PM EST

                      There should be a list for anyone that is for the right to own an AR-15 or any other type of weapon that can spit out 100 bullets a minute and if members of their families are murdered by some crazy person with one of these types of weapons then someone can look on the list and no one should feel a damn bit sorry for them or their family members that are killed!!!

                      • 1 vote
                      Reply#46 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:24 PM EST

                      Eldon L. White---Wow you don't know to much about guns do ya!

                      • 1 vote
                      #46.1 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:35 PM EST
                      Reply

                      No amount of lives taken by these crazy people in "gun free Zones" justifies any type of gun control. You people don't get it. It is not the gun. It is the progressive culture of the last 40 years that have destroyed families, schools, values and taken God from education and government. You liberals brought this on us because you forgot how hard we have fought for our Liberty. Freedom is not Free! Paul USMC 66-69.

                      • 1 vote
                      Reply#47 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:44 PM EST

                      Whoa whoa whoa, what in the hell is an assault pistol?!!!?

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#48 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:14 PM EST

                      What the hell is an "Assault Pistol". How many more inaccurate terms can the MSM make up?

                      • 2 votes
                      Reply#49 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:26 PM EST

                      Obama's exploration of the children on that stage today was sickening. Obama has used the office of the president to split this country apart in many, many different ways and this is just another topic. His use of children today was outrageous and should never have been used. Obama has brought more disrespect to the office he holds than anyone that has come before and more than likely anyone that will follow him.

                      The idea that many on this have is that guns are a tool for killing, well you are right. They have guns for just about anything you want. Most are sold for hunting, hunting is a very big business in this country and aroundthe world. Many people use guns in competition shooting, which is a great sport. The Federal Government relies on sportsmen to help them regulate wild game in different areas of the country. I don't think anyone of you actual know anything about that though.

                      Guns for self defense are the guns most of you know about and they have a wide range of them. They are bought for self protectionand protection of a families lives, home and property. Many of you do not know what responsibility comes with buying that gun and that is the ability of taking a life. That you will never know about because more than likely you will never have to make that decision.

                      Guns do one other thing really good, it's a deterrent and the criminal that stands outside your door just might not take a chance breaking it down because they do not know if you have a gun or not. That situation worked well for the United States in the Cold War. No nuclear weapons were used and millions of lives were saved because the countries had no idea what the other country had behind their door.

                        Reply#50 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:30 PM EST

                        You're as blind as Magoo Smokie. Who is advocating banning all firearms...that voice in your head?

                          #50.1 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:38 PM EST
                          Reply

                          AlaskaGirl, I believe you are correct!

                          I think that your comment 'the criminals were law-abiding citizens until they weren't' could be applied to every criminal that has ever lived, lives now or ever will live! That still means that the crimes were committed by criminals! I don't believe that every law-abiding citizen will be a criminals UNLESS our government legislates us all to being criminals.

                            Reply#51 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:37 PM EST

                            Jack and Gibberish

                              Reply#52 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:04 PM EST

                              Mental illness is genetics, environment, culture. Removing it is impossible as many babies are born every minute. The science is not there and never will be in our life time or scientists and doctors are GODs. But the bullet that comes at the end of a gun can be stopped tangibly. What you ask even GOD cannot do, why do you ask human to do when even GOD can't. David Keene is a MORON!!!

                                Reply#53 - Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:11 PM EST
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