I find it amazing that this latest tragedy is the only one being referred to constantly. What about Aurora? It isn't simply about children but the populace in general isn't it? No one should have to suffer that kind of tragedy regardless of where it happened and no matter the age.

Allen - Omaha

Post #1.13 - spot on.

jw101 . . .

Why aren't our politicians working on this country's horrible economy and the influx of over 15+ million illegal immigrants instead of wasting their time on this issue?

Because the people in this country actually don't think it's a waste of time and we've informed our representatives to that effect. What about you backing up your illegal aliens kill more "fact?"

From the greatest President.

"The gun has been called the great equalizer, meaning that a small person with a gun is equal to a large person, but it is a great equalizer in another way, too. It insures that the people are the equal of their government whenever that government forgets that it is servant and not master of the governed. When the British forgot that they got a revolution. And, as a result, we Americans got a Constitution; a Constitution that, as those who wrote it were determined, would keep men free. If we give up part of that Constitution we give up part of our freedom and increase the chance that we will lose it all." --Ronald Reagan

So was mediiocre president Reagan quoting Abraham Lincoln or Frankly D. Roosevelt? Reagan certainly wasn't the greatest president.

Ben-636050

George Mason -- a patriot with foresight.

"[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, - who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually, by totally disusing and neglecting the militia." –George Mason, speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention, 1788

Mr Mason would be correct today had we not a military force stronger than all others and larger than most. Back in the very early days of our country we didn't have a standing army and so depended on militia to defend the country.

I wonder how many people with concealed carry permits have gone out and committed mass murder?

The US today is not Germany during WWII.....how ridiculous can you get.

News or propaganda

I wonder how many people with concealed carry permits have gone out and committed mass murder?

====================

Possibly a more relevant question is how many concealed carry permits think it is mandatory for weapons with these capabilities, coupled with high-capacity cartridges be readily available either through legal channels or non-legal channels to 'Joe' Public?

"Why does anybody need a ... 30-round clip for a gun?"

Nicholas,

Hey bud, you need a New tin hat. Yer old one has Rusted.

Leave your closet much?

From the article above:

The outdoor enthusiasts meeting with the vice president included members of the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies, Ducks Unlimited, and the Outdoor Industry Association; the entertainment industry participants, slated for a 6 p.m. ET meeting, include representatives from the Motion Picture Association of America, Comcast, and the Directors Guild.

Megastore Wal-Mart will also be participating in a Thursday meeting with Attorney General Eric Holder this afternoon, along with other retailers like Bass Pro Shops and Dick's Sporting Goods. Wal-Mart agreed to send a representative to the session after public criticism of the store's initial 'no' RSVP to the White House invitation.

The more, the merrier.

The number one issue all sides can agree on is that a terrorist act like Newtown, should never, ever happen again.

How about an IQ test before you can purchase a gun.

How about requiring gun owners purchase gun insurance before they purchase a gun.

How about requiring gun owners to purchase locks and storage containers before they purchase a gun.

There are alot of law abiding citizens who are responsible.

It's just there are alot of loonies and crackpots that should never be allowed to purchase a gun.

Salud

vie05ua

Allen, just like maxdog said, it's law abiding citizens who will be affected by ANY imposition of firearms restrictions. You really thing the guy illegally selling guns out of his trunk cares if there's a ban on private sales? I'm fine with closing the gun show loophole, to be perfectly honest, even though less than 1% of all weapons used in gun crimes come from gun shows (DoJ study, look it up).

I've seen you do nothing but twist and turn words in this post, infer connotations... But, your attack on maxdog's comment is nothing but nonsense. I understand what you're trying to say (I think), but what maxdog is saying is the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding citizens and the gun laws don't make a difference

======

You are knee-jerking your response. A) I didn't 'attack' maxdog and you're more than welcome to highlight how exactly they were. B) What I stated was that I found it incompatible to hold to the position that the vast majority of gun owners are law abiding and maintain that gun laws don't work.

The simple point, if gun laws weren't working then a vast majority of guns owners could not be categorized as law abiding.

The real meat on the bone, is what is the agreed upon definition of 'working'.

Doug-384925

"Why does anybody need a ... 30-round clip for a gun?"

They don't.

Only our brave women and men in the armed forces should have them.

Salud

Attacking someone's words doesn't mean verbally abusing. Just like I said, your words are not making sense, except to your own strawman.

Law-abiding, even if there were zero gun control laws, a gun owner can still be law-abiding, solely on the fact he is not breaking laws. Law-abiding does not necessarily mean abiding only by the gun laws. You're pin-pointing a class of laws, then showing how a comment doesn't apply to them.

Your arguments are really holding no weight, and make no sense. If gun laws weren't working, then majority of gun owners wouldn't be law abiding? Define how you mean not working? You're still not making any sense at all with any argument. Gun laws AREN'T working, yet I'm still a law abiding citizens AND a gun owner. Gun laws AREN'T working because there are criminals who are NOT law abiding citizens. This is what pro-gun people want to fix, WITHOUT trampling on their rights to own. But how do you get a law breaker to abide by the law?

Majority of gun owners have no intention, or probably even thoughts of, commiting a crime with their weapons. I.e. not breaking laws, regardless of what the gun laws say.

Elliot and Ben. You two are letting your stupidity show. I am kinda thinking your being paid to post maybe by the NRA. Do you fools really think you could get a group of people to stand together, and fight the government. People like the Koch Brothers spend millions ever year to keep us divided. We spend so much time fighting each other. That is exactly why people like Koch's can get away with what ever they want. They have you so worried about the government taking your guns. No one is watching them and what they are doing. I guess they think they are to big to fall. Koch's set up all the so called think tanks to spread there propaganda. There old man did the same thing when JFK was president. They spend all this money to get people that can't think for themselves, to do there dirty work. The KKK did the same thing. If you keep telling someone that is a little slow that a bad Dr. Is killing babies, That person will kill that DR. That is like hiring a hit man to commit Murder. But as long as we are fighting with one another, big Business gets away with murder. They convince people to vote for thing that hurt them so big business can make more money. They have us paying there taxes for them and then tell us how we can spend our money. Its crazy. And we need to take a good look at the Militia's that got out of hand and were taken down. We just seen that In Alaska. We seen it in Michigan, and Tx. These Militia's were small army's. But when push came to shove, they folded there hand. People think these AR-15 will make them a bad ass. But when someone is firing back at you, well that's not like training. You get a bit nerves when someone shots at you. If these people want to shot guns like that, Join the Army. Be in the Army, Not playing army.

To all my fellow Progressives in the room. We should put an army together to go to DC and let the President know we have his back. Give the GNOP & NRA a show of force. They send there bullies in a show of force. We need to do like we did to stop the Vietnam war. That was the last time anyone stood up for this country and the majority.

Hey jim @1.3 - your comment riled me.

Criminals don't pay attentions to "laws" else they wouldn't be criminals and the mentally ill - well, that's another story. What about the "criminal" running a GARAGE SALE who sold my brother the gun he used to kill himself with? All that man was interested in was making a buck. He didn't care who bought his instrument of death.

Selling a gun anywhere other than a federally regulated gun shop should be against the law.

As I reread the post I do see there is much said about responsible gun owners. I am one of them. But If we can do something to keep a 9mm with a 30 round clip out of the hands of a crazy person, by closing the gun show loop whole then we must do it. That is not going to hurt anyone but the sellers that don't give a dam. the AZ shooter got his gun at such a show. Same with AR-15. The Newtown shooter took his mothers Guns, Killed her and then went to the school. She owned these properly but she was not a responsible gun owner. She must of been a nut case like her son. No person in her right mind would teach her mental ill son how to shot an AR-15. Then to say she needed that gun to protect herself and her family. And why weren't these Guns locked away safely? Now we are going to have to go further and ask if there are any mentally ill people living with you when you buy a gun. And I think that we should have to buy an Insurance Policy for the guns, like a car. License them like a car too. But It is a good first step to Ban Assault weapons completely.

Caesar Augustus-

The framers of the Constitution disagree. But what did those wig and heel wearing men know.

And yet, in my humble opinion, that is what I would say is a "well regulated militia.

The military.

Salud

Tomas.....you wrote:

It's just there are a lot of loonies and crackpots that should never be allowed to purchase a gun.

And we are seeing many of them here!!. We need better mental health facilities available to all.

@Diane #1.62, Apparently, emotion has totally run over your ability to think logically. The fact that your brother chose to kill himself has little to do with WHERE or HOW he chose to purchase the MEANS to do it. He could have purchased a gun at a "federally regulated gun shop" and still taken his own life. He could have started a car in a closed garage and died of carbon monoxide poisoning if that was his desire.

Your ridiculous statement blaming someone who ran a garage sale for your brother's personal distress and self-termination is ridiculous. Sorry for your loss, but you need counseling.

Sailcat-2064101

Allen, just like maxdog said, it's law abiding citizens who will be affected by ANY imposition of firearms restrictions.

How? Requiring training, licensing, weapon registration, and a ban on assault type weapons and their pointless accessories will have no affect upon responsible gun owners. It is important for you to understand the Second Amendment does not exist merely to protect the perceived rights of childish wannabe Rambos to accumulate senseless arsenals of deadly toys. Gun control is the right thing to do.

===================

Still don't get how the basic underpinning is supposed to be different here. Exactly what law ISN'T a burden on the 'good' guy..the 'abiding' guy.. the 'responsible' guy? Of course there is a greater burden on the individual who say's 'I am going to do something x way, because the law, my faith, my point of view, whatever says so, while there still exist a nefarious way to act. But doesn't change the reality that you are regulating yourself by a standard..a code. It's a choice.

Apologize, but I don't understand your "How..." sentence and the last sentence you wrote. If the things you mentioned "Requiring training, licensing, weapon registration, and a ban on assault type weapons and their pointless accessories" aren't the correct types of things to do, then what do you mean when you say "Gun control is the right thing to do."? What is gun control, if not the things you mentioned?

GingerbreadMamma . . .

We need better mental health facilities available to all.

That would require funding and God forbid any of those posting from the WRNJ side of the aisle be asked to cough up monies for that! I'm sure they'd prefer to just arm the world and shoot those with health issues.

MUW - first of all, go back to hate radio. Second, your "shall not be infringed" does not supersede my "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" Sorry bub..

apologize, but I don't understand your "How..." sentence and the last sentence you wrote.

Sorry, that was a quote from a previous post. The remainder of my post was a response to that sentence. Carry on.

So if a big, strong man breaks into a woman's house to rape and murder her, Biden does not want her to have exercise her human right to defend her self against unjustified assault, as is guaranteed in the Constitution. Her innocent life will lost, not saved. So Joe, if just one life is saved, isn't it worth protecting her right to self defense?

toyoland

Allen,

Your responses are semantics without substance and are frankly idiotic, just stop.

===============

Seems like a subjective comment. I wasn't aware I possessed some power to make you stop, read and reply. My apologies.

Firearms should be legal for all to have ... as long as you are qualified and can pass a background check Just as Driver license has a designation on them that allows a person to operate a vehicle such as Motorcycle or CDL or Limo or heavy equiptment... one license does not give you the right to operate any thing with wheels ..the same should hold true with guns .. you dont give some one with 2 DUIs a drivers license why give a convicted felon a gun permit.. one license should not give anyone the right to buy and use anything that has bullets .. there also needs to be penalties for people that buy weapons and allow someone else access to them .. if your weapon is lost or stolen you should be held as responsible for any crime committed with that weapon as an accomplice

hs321

So if a big, strong man breaks into a woman's house to rape and murder her, Biden does not want her to have exercise her human right to defend her self against unjustified assault, as is guaranteed in the Constitution. Her innocent life will lost, not saved. So Joe, if just one life is saved, isn't it worth protecting her right to self defense?

===============

What in the world!?! You thought about that one too long.

Wrong, Nukeman. We are only one little Supreme Court decision away from a complete reinterpretation of the Second Amendment. If you, in your fevered imagination, think that is impossible, please allow me to direct you to the Supreme Court decision on health care, a decision that the right wing lunatic fringe thought wouldn't happen. There is no need for a new amendment at all.

Keep Shouting Them Down Folks and Never Let Any These Gun Control
Freaks (GCF's) think their "Opinions" are more powerful than the
Constitution of the United States!

As long as the GCF's are a small but vocal minority the Plutocratic Wall Street
Corporations who now control Our Country are still afraid to attempt to
Disarm America directly.

Demand the Impeachments (like Joseph Biden) and Deportations (like
Piers Morgan) of the Plutocrats Minions for as much as they like to "Foo
Paw" US they still back down at least until the ""Next Time"!

So Just Keep Shouting Them Down.....Until they crawl back under their rock!

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed
-- and hence clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an
endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." Henry Louis
Mencken

@Sailcat. DUH. Apples and oranges. The SCOTUS ruling on health care was a ruling on the Constitutionality of a LAW, not on the Constitutionaly of the Constitution. And if they try to tell me that "shall not be ingringed" really means, "may be infringed if we say so", I will be forced to dis-regard that interpretation. Why are you Libs so dishonest. If you want my guns do it the right way. Amend the Constitution. Probably cheaper than buying a SCOTUS Justice or two.

BTW. The ruling on health care was really a long-term win for the country. Now laws have to call a tax a tax. They can no longer hide a tax as a fee or penalty.

Nukeman-837193.....Only because the SCOTUS reminded US Congress has the "Right" to Tax US per the Constitution of the United States....Oh wait didn't Obama said the Health Care Law "wasn't" a new Tax? Besides since when have any of the Plutocracies Political Minions obeyed the Constitution anyway!

Once again Barrack H Obama lied to our face...Has he EVER done anything else?

“It is the duty of the patriot to protect his country from its government.” - Thomas Paine

PS Sailcat-2064101.... We are only one little Supreme Court decision away from a complete reinterpretation of the Second Amendment.

Ah yes once again what they cannot do by "Legal Appeal they threaten to do by Unconstitutional Executive Order, UN Treaty, Law or merely by Redefinition or Interpretation of over 200 years of History and Our Bill of Rights!

Beware of the Natural Law of Unintended Consequences!

The prevailing view of the Second Amendment is largely based upon the Supreme Court decision, The District of Columbia v. Heller that was passed down in the 70s. It established many of the controversial principles that are in question today. It is very likely the Supreme Court will have another whack at this issue, and interpretations can change, you know. The Supreme Court giveth and the Supreme Court taketh away. Stay tuned!

SeekingSanity...."They are looking at closing gun show loopholes, having better mental health screening, requiring all gun buyers to be licensed and - hopefully - properly trained." Etc.

I'm all for this type of common sense reforms. Responsible gun owners/sellers have no problems with these types of reforms because they are already following many of them. So we enact these and some nut walks into a mall and shoots a bunch of people with a couple of 8 round clip guns. So we do the responsible thing and ban all semi-automatics. Next some nut walks into a restaurant, pulls out a couple of revolvers and kills 8 or 10 people. So we do the responsible thing and ban everything but single-shot guns.

One thing leads to another and then, little by little, your right to defend yourself against unjustified assault it taken away from you.

"Once you buy the argument that some segment of the citizenry should lose their rights, just because they are envied or resented, you are putting your own rights in jeopardy-- quite aside from undermining any moral basis for respecting anybody's rights. You are opening the floodgates to arbitrary power. And once you open the floodgates, you can't tell the water where to go." - Thomas Sowell

The Second Amendment re-interpreted? Read this and then tell us how:

American Usage and Style: The Consensus. Here's what he has to say:

[Copperud:] "The words 'A well-regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state,' contrary to the interpretation cited in your letter of July 26, 1991, constitutes a present participle, rather than a clause. It is used as an adjective, modifying 'militia,' which is followed by the main clause of the sentence (subject 'the right', verb 'shall'). The right to keep and bear arms is asserted as an essential for maintaining a militia.

"In reply to your numbered questions:

[Schulman:] "(1) Can the sentence be interpreted to grant the right to keep and bear arms solely to 'a well-regulated militia'?"

[Copperud:] "(1) The sentence does not restrict the right to keep and bear arms, nor does it state or imply possession of the right elsewhere or by others than the people; it simply makes a positive statement with respect to a right of the people."

[Schulman:] "(2) Is 'the right of the people to keep and bear arms' granted by the words of the Second Amendment, or does the Second Amendment assume a preexisting right of the people to keep and bear arms, and merely state that such right 'shall not be infringed'?"

[Copperud:] "(2) The right is not granted by the amendment; its existence is assumed. The thrust of the sentence is that the right shall be preserved inviolate for the sake of ensuring a militia."

[Schulman:] "(3) Is the right of the people to keep and bear arms conditioned upon whether or not a well regulated militia, is, in fact necessary to the security of a free State, and if that condition is not existing, is the statement 'the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed' null and void?"

[Copperud:] "(3) No such condition is expressed or implied. The right to keep and bear arms is not said by the amendment to depend on the existence of a militia. No condition is stated or implied as to the relation of the right to keep and bear arms and to the necessity of a well-regulated militia as a requisite to the security of a free state. The right to keep and bear arms is deemed unconditional by the entire sentence."

[Schulman:] "(4) Does the clause 'A well-regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,' grant a right to the government to place conditions on the 'right of the people to keep and bear arms,' or is such right deemed unconditional by the meaning of the entire sentence?"

[Copperud:] "(4) The right is assumed to exist and to be unconditional, as previously stated. It is invoked here specifically for the sake of the militia."

[Schulman:] "(5) Which of the following does the phrase 'well-regulated militia' mean: 'well-equipped', 'well-organized,' 'well-drilled,' 'well-educated,' or 'subject to regulations of a superior authority'?"

[Copperud:] "(5) The phrase means 'subject to regulations of a superior authority;' this accords with the desire of the writers for civilian control over the military."

[Schulman:] "(6) (If at all possible, I would ask you to take account the changed meanings of words, or usage, since that sentence was written 200 years ago, but not take into account historical interpretations of the intents of the authors, unless those issues can be clearly separated."

[Copperud:] "To the best of my knowledge, there has been no change in the meaning of words or in usage that would affect the meaning of the amendment. If it were written today, it might be put: "Since a well-regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be abridged.'

[Schulman:] "As a 'scientific control' on this analysis, I would also appreciate it if you could compare your analysis of the text of the Second Amendment to the following sentence,

"A well-schooled electorate, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read Books, shall not be infringed.'

"My questions for the usage analysis of this sentence would be,

"(1) Is the grammatical structure and usage of this sentence and the way the words modify each other, identical to the Second Amendment's sentence?; and

"(2) Could this sentence be interpreted to restrict 'the right of the people to keep and read Books' only to 'a well-educated electorate' — for example, registered voters with a high-school diploma?"

[Copperud:] "(1) Your 'scientific control' sentence precisely parallels the amendment in grammatical structure.

"(2) There is nothing in your sentence that either indicates or implies the possibility of a restricted interpretation."

Professor Copperud had only one additional comment, which he placed in his cover letter: "With well-known human curiosity, I made some speculative efforts to decide how the material might be used, but was unable to reach any conclusion."

Read more here: http://constitution.org/2ll/schol/2amd_grammar.htm

Once again I must question these so called "Reasonable" Posters who seem so quick & willing to "Give Away" our Right of Self Defense to the Corporate Plutocracy and their Political Tyrants merely by their so called Compromises!

We have the 2nd Amendment for ONLY one reason and the is to defend the Constitution of United States against all enemies both foreign (like Piers Morgan & Rupert Murdoch) and domestic (like Barrack Obama & Joseph Biden) or didn't "any of you" take that same Oath of Office?

"Those who beat their swords into plowshares usually end up plowing for those who didn't." – Ben Franklin

PS Sailcat-2064101.....And "We The People" can ALWAYS Reassert Our Rights for as the Supreme Court has said They "Only Rule By The Consent Of The Governed"!

Think about what you now wish upon Our Land....Always Remember...Tyranny and Civil War always is just one more "Law or Executive Order" away!

@MUW. I did and I will. There was no statute of limitations nor Sunset Clause attatched to it.

I hate it when they update articles ... but this from above . . . .

"We were disappointed with how little this meeting had to do with keeping our children safe and how much it had to do with an agenda to attack the Second Amendment," the NRA wrote in a statement after a closed-door meeting with administration officials and other gun groups.

I love the fact that the WRNJs and the NRA have the same plan. After a closed door meeting, come on out and spew your side of the facts. Repeat over and over. Make yourself look like you care and in the meantime continue working on your own agenda while pretending you never attended the meeting in the first place - aka Susan Rice.

Either you understand what support and defend the Constitution against all enemies both foriegn and domestic (or Corporate) means or you don't!

If "they" what a "Change" the ONLY Legal way is by Constitutional Repeal or an Amendment. Modification...Period!

Everything else is merely playing into the hands of those Wall Street Oligarchs & Robber Barons who have seized control of our Government and Political System by subversion perversion and corruption.

Do you want to live in a Democratic Republic or a Plutocratic Dictatorship?

plu·toc·ra·cy .../plo͞oˈtäkrəsē/...Noun

1. Government by the wealthy.
2. A country or society governed in this way.

Clearly Biden and his other "big government" folks have no desire for discussion and debate and stating executive order (aka "what we say goes") is the solution. I don't think the solution is to piss off 50 million gun owners (each with an average of 4+ guns) and telling us gun owners to go "$#%# yourself" is the best way to handle this delicate debate.

But one thing is for certain - the 2nd amendment gives the people the right to keep and bear arms. Try to take away that right from 50 million gun owners and I assure you that at least 1 million of those (including myself) will fight and die to keep the right to protect ourselves.

As Elliot said so well in post 1.35:

I remember a movie where only the police and military had guns, it was called Shindler's List.

In so many countries in history mass banning of the ability to protect yourself led to massacres and slaughter. If I am going to die I am going to die protecting the liberties our founding fathers fought and risked their lives for rather than "waiting for my turn" to stand out naked in a field overlooking a pit with dead bodies.

I know - you say I am extreme and I am probably wrong. But I recall in history millions of Jews saying that when they moved to the ghettos and the thought that the germans would execute them never crossed their minds. Hitler killed 12,000,000 Jews.

And there are 6,000,000 in Russia at the beginning of Stalin's rein that didn't think their safety was at risk against the government.

And there are over 50 million in the middle of the last century in China that had no idea they would be executed by Mao Zedong.

Or in the late 70's Pal Pot in Cambodia responsible for over 1,700,000 million deaths.

The 2nd amendment is intended NOT for hunting but for the right to protect yourself. How about these quotes from those during the time of writing the Constitution:

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, The Federalist Papers #46 at 243-244)

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and include all men capable of bearing arms." (Richard Henry Lee, Additional Letters from the Federal Farmer (1788) at 169)

"No Free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (Thomas Jefferson, Proposal Virginia Constitution, 1 T. Jefferson Papers, 334,[C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950])

"Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation. . . Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." (James Madison, author of the Bill of Rights, in Federalist Paper No. 46.)

"The Constitution shall never be construed....to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms" (Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87)

"To preserve liberty, it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms, and be taught alike especially when young, how to use them." (Richard Henry Lee, 1788, Initiator of the Declaration of Independence, and member of the first Senate, which passed the Bill of Rights, Walter Bennett, ed., Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republican, at 21,22,124 (Univ. of Alabama Press,1975)..)

"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." (Alexander Hamilton, The Federalist Papers at 184-8)

"No kingdom can be secured otherwise than by arming the people. The possession of arms is the distinction between a freeman and a slave. He, who has nothing, and who himself belongs to another, must be defended by him, whose property he is, and needs no arms. But he, who thinks he is his own master, and has what he can call his own, ought to have arms to defend himself, and what he possesses; else he lives precariously, and at discretion." (James Burgh, Political Disquisitions: Or, an Enquiry into Public Errors, Defects, and Abuses [London, 1774-1775])

"What country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, Dec. 20, 1787, in Papers of Jefferson, ed. Boyd et al.)

"To prohibit a citizen from wearing or carrying a war arm . . . is an unwarranted restriction upon the constitutional right to keep and bear arms. If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of constitutional privilege." [Wilson v. State, 33 Ark. 557, at 560, 34 Am. Rep. 52, at 54 (1878)]

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States" (Noah Webster in `An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution', 1787, a pamphlet aimed at swaying Pennsylvania toward ratification, in Paul Ford, ed., Pamphlets on the Constitution of the United States, at 56(New York, 1888))

Many have said, and currently say, there will never be another civil war. Try to limit gun ownership to 50 million gun owners and restrict the rights of the people by executive order (or "action of a king") without due process and legislation and you can easily have 1 million+ with weapons in hand ready to fight to protect the freedoms promised in the Constitution. Another Civil War? Doubtful. Unless we have a president who cares not about the rights of the people and only with the desire of taking away the ability for the people to protect themselves.

Be careful what you wish for because the consequences will be great.

Awww. Too effing bad for the NRA. When they stop playing b.s. games like equating the President of The United States to Hitler and Stalin and go back to the good old days when they were part of the solution i.e. focusing on gun safety for ALL Americans instead of pandering to manufacturers and profiting off sales, perhaps they'll regain some credibility. Until then, they can wipe their noses on their bloody sleeves.

The NRA will never change their position. They work for the Gun Manufacturers. They exist to push gun sales.

Jeremy said;

What laws could they possible put into effect, that would of prevented the school shooting?

Try this:

1) Not allowed to have a high-capacity assault-type firearm if there is a mentally deficient individual living with you.

May not have prevented the shooting, Adam Lanza might still have grabbed the handguns and gone to the school with them but he might not have been able to kill so many in such a short time.

2) Severe penalties mandating fines and possibly jail time for lying on the gun application.

Nancy Lanza lived with her 20 year old autistic child and had previously (reportedly) tried to get him help. This might have showed up on a background check (she's a teacher, she would have had to go through some pretty thorough background check to get that job) and if she lied on her application she would have been denied permission to get the AR15, though she could still have been entitled to the smaller-caliber handguns. If she knew that if she lied on the application she might go to jail,thus leaving Adam alone or possibly hing to go into the Social services system as a dependent adult, she would most likely not have lied.

I am the mother of an autistic child (9 years old) and I own a firearm. The day my son finds out about the gun we own will be the day it leaves the house. Yes, it was my Dad's. Yes, it's historic. Yes, I do not own any ammunition for it. It will still leave the house the day he finds out it is there.

ben...........

so you are against the Patriot Act.

if we have "GUN APPRECIATION DAY"............then we should have "DRUNK DRIVING APPRECIATION DAY"

if we have "GUN APPREACIATION DAY" ..........then we should have "ABORTION APPRECIATION DAY"

Probusiness,

When you can't even get the number of Jews killed by Hitler right (6 million), how are we supposed to believe anything else you've written?

elliot-3020456

I remember a movie where only the police and military had guns, it was called Shindler's List.

this is the stupidest post I have seen thus far

1. it makes no sense analogically

2. why use a movie title instead of the actual event?

3. it's just offensive

GOOD! If the NRA isn't happy then we must be doing the right thing! Go, Go JOE!

if we have "GUN APPRECIATION DAY" .........then we should have "METAL PENIS APPRECIAITON DAY"

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun."

That makes sense. So going back to the Aurora killings, James Holmes maybe would have had time to kill 2 maybe 3 people at best, until everyone else started whipping out their guns and firing from all different angles at him. Although methinks that the death toll would probably have been about the same with everyone being caught in a crossfire. So I think we are back at square 1, NRA.

if we have "GUN APPRECIATION DAY"...........then we should have "DEATH PENALTY APPRECIATION DAY"

Seeking Sanity said;

No one is talking about banning guns - except assault weapons and large ammo clips. As a woman I can assure you that if my home is broken into I wouldn't be stupid and reach for an assault weapon.

I live in an inner-city neighborhood with 5 different gangs running through it and I have never once felt the need to take my Dad's gun out and see if it still shoots.

I practice Kumooyeh--Korean sword disciplines--and the one time that someone tried to break into my house I met him at the front door with two swords and 'encouraged' him to wait until the police could come and he could explain to them why he felt the need to be in my house at just that moment.

Now, I'd looked out my front window and seen him throwing himself rather disconnectedly at the front door. He was stoned off his a$$. If he'd been in full possession of his faculties I'd have taken my (disabled) hubby, the dog, and the kids out the back door to the neighbor across the alley--nothing in that house is worth my children or my husband's life.

Homicides per 100,000.USA 4.8, Canada 1.6, UK 1.2, Germany 0.8, France 1,1, Australia 1.0, Spain 0.8

Industrialized countries with strong social safety nets have much lower murder rates than the US.

With universal healthcare, extended unemployment insurance with retraining, daycare support, and welfare for those who need it, there would be no need to address the gun issue.

Take despiration out of the equasion, give everyone real opportunity to better themselves, and murder rates will fall below 2.0 per 100,000, without doing anything about guns.

It will cost more at tax time, but there won't be any more health insurance payments, no more fighting about what is preexisting, what is and isn't covered.

There will be a lot more peace of mind. What price would you put on that?

Will someone please ask the Syrian people how hard it is to ask for or get freedom if you aren't allowed to have guns of your own.

AZpartsGuy,

So you are implying we in America need to get our freedom while slaughtering our people without an uprising?

Az,

take your guns and help Syrians! It will give you a chance to legally practice on humans and not here!

Doug "Why does anybody need a ... 30-round clip for a gun?"

There is no such thing as a 30 rnd clip ,,,, learn what it is that your talking about.

pyro engineer
Several Wyoming lawmakers are proposing legislation designed to protect gun-owners from any potential federal firearm ban. The "Firearms Protection Act" bill, introduced this week, would make any federal law banning semi-automatic firearms or limiting the size of gun magazines unenforceable within the state's boundaries.

Anyone trying to enforce a federal gun ban could face felony charges under the proposal. It also includes a provision allowing the Wyoming Attorney General's office to defend any state resident against any federal firearm ban.

The complete "Firearm Protection Act" is available on the Wyoming Legislature's website ...

I fully expect many states will follow their lead ...

Follow their "lead" at what? Wasting their citizen's time and tax dollars?

Federal law always trumps state law. Consider this issues going on right now with pot being legaiized in some states. It's well known that if the feds want to come in and run a pot bust they can do so.

Lawmakers in backwards states can puff out their little chests and pass all the laws they want to make themselves feel important. If it's contrary to federal law, then you're still a criminal and can be prosecuted.

I want to not only shut down the rights of people who think they should have the right to own assault rifles, I also want to shut down the people who think they have the right to own guns in a household with a person diagnosed with a mental illness that makes them a danger to themselves and/or those around them. And I want those diagnosed people to never, ever be able to own a gun. I also want laws banning retailers for selling R rated movies to anyone under 17, with criminal penalties brought against the store owner.

That's correct. You heard it. You want someone to give up their rights? You better be willing to give up yours. And, quite frankly, its worth it. Don't tell me that you only support one of the things mentioned above without being a political freak instead of someone who wants to try to make things better.

The NRA has a three point plan to solve the problem of gun violence:

1. More guns

2. Bigger guns

3. More, bigger guns

clwyd-2621393

I'm not implying anything like that, I'm saying if you don't have a right to have guns you will be completely at the discretion of those governing you. Not to mention, I'm sure you have read why Japan did NOT attack mainland USA or try to occupy it.... because they knew all the people had their own guns and there would be now way to do it! Kind of like what Russia learned when it was taking over countries in WWI and WWII but didn't work with Finland because its people were also armed.

I'm a gun owner... I'm OK with all gun transactions going through an FFL and a background check...

but I think that an assault rifle ban is idiotic.... it's banning a rifle with a specific style... they aren't automatic, they don't use armor penetrating ammunition.... there's nothing significantly different from other rifle types and people thinking they are going to make any sort of impact by banning them are not being realistic at all...

nearly all gun crime is perpetrated by handguns... last year in chicago out of 390ish firearm murders: one rifle and it wasnt an AR

it's closing the barn door... there are millions out there....

this whole thing is about background checks... you stop felons and psych patients from getting them, you cut gun crime by 80%

Total background checks, including those that live with you. Mandatory trigger locks. Punishment of gun owners whose guns are used in a crime, including suicide. Ten round limit on magazines. Two week waiting period. Just a few ideas. Fire away!

Brady Anti-gun organization has maybe 300,000 members and the NRA has 4,500,000 members and the President did not invite the NRA to hear what they had to say, they invited them to spit in their face.

They ignore much greater percentages of the population on every policy that they want, at least Romney was honest, this president is just a POS LIAR.

LaPierre, that idiot Alex Jones and the other idiot, Larry Pratt should test out one of their precious guns by pointing it at their respective temples. I wouldn't mind cleaning up the mess.

jim-1455434

Biden is just DUMB ENOUGH to think that criminals and the mentally ill will pay attention to a new gun law !!

I don't give a tinker's damn if they pay attention to the law, as long as we can limit their access to assault rifles with high capacity mags.

I remember a movie where only the police and military had guns, it was called Shindler's List.

This is the most retarded comment I've seen yet. I remember some countries where only the police and military had guns: it's called EVERY OTHER DEVELOPED NATION. How about that?

Ben-636050

Here!!! Here!!! A man of courage and I stand with him and tens of millions of others.

Patriots, I call on you to pledge and affirm: "We, the People, affirm that we will support and defend Liberty as "endowed by our Creator," enshrined in our Constitution and empowered by its Second Amendment, against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

Though tens of millions of American Patriots have already said it, the time has come for one of us to go to the mountaintop and shout it so the whole world can hear it.

I hereby make this declaration: I will NOT comply with any executive decree, law or judicial diktat that violates our innate right to self defense, or the defense of Liberty enshrined in our Constitution and authorized by its Second Amendment.

http://patriotpost.us/alexander/16224/

Spoken like a true paranoid RWNJ. Not this President, nor even the last one (you know, the Unitary Executive) has the power to circumvent the 2nd Amendment. But go ahead and get all fired up and join a militia with the other yahoos. I'm sure if it ever comes down to a faceoff with the United States military...you will be a farce to be reckoned with.

elliot-3020456

I remember a movie where only the police and military had guns, it was called Shindler's List.

What's sad Elliot, the weak minded will believe you. Why don't you explain to everyone how the 1938 German Weapons Law disarmed the German People...I'll wait.

Once again isn't funny how the NRA and Biden can agree as if the Corporate NRA support is all that matters? What a Crock of Nonsense and attempting to use the NRA to support the Corporate Disarmament of the American People is Disingenuous at least and Treasonous at its worst!

America demand the Impeachment of Vice President Joseph Biden for Violation of his Oath of Office to support and defend the Constitution of the United States both foreign or domestic.....

Did anyone else take that Oath of Office to Our Constitution and do you intend to uphold your Oath as needed?

Support the Gun Owners of America and the Oath Keepers, the Wall Street Media Corporations have given the Corporate NRA enough Publicity already!

PS I wonder if Piers Morgan is going to admit to Larry Pratt that England has a 4 times higher Violent Crime Statistics than America has when They "Go At it Again" per the latest CNN Headline?

“Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have guns, why should we let them have ideas.” - Joseph Stalin

"National Rifle Association head Wayne LaPierre caused controversy after the Newton killings for saying that the only way to prevent such events is the presence of armed security officers at every school."

1. So we place minimum wage TSA washouts armed with M-4s in our school hallways and wait for the carnage, then we can fire them and they can get their McDonald's jobs back...would you like that Super Sized?

2. Approximately 76,000 schools. Is that one armed guard per school or multiple armed guards? If we tack a sales tax on guns (NRA would love that) in order to support the program from what I've read, you would have to tack an extra $300-$500 per gun. Does anyone believe the NRA would support that? That leaves general funds. I'm sure the NRA would support the American Tax Payer safeguarding their business with additional taxes.

Hmm the NRA is merely "disappointed because the NRA mostly Represents the Corporations and has for years!

Don't believe just look at who the major contributes are! But while you are at it you'd better also look at who are the major contributors of Biden, Obama, Reid, Feinstein, Emanuel, Bloomberg and the Democrat, and all of the Republicans.

The last non Corporate Corrupt Politician we had Dr Ron Paul has given up on US and retired.

So why do you Gun Control people keep acting like and saying that they are "my government"...When they are Obviously not!

Each and every one Democrat or Republican are Bought and Paid for Stooges of the Oligarchs Banksters and Robber Barons on Wall Street!

This entire Corporate Media Disarmament Campaign is about better controlling the America Peasant Peons and Slave during the "Next Phase" of the War On America (Terror) and nothing else.

“One death is a tragedy; one million is a statistic.” - Joseph Stalin

We had a federal law on gun control and it really didn't do a damn thing to protect anyone, it expired and should not be revised or rewritten. We don't need more federal laws, there is to damn many now. Let the individual states create their own gun control laws. States are better equipped than the Federal Government to control weapons use, purposes and size/caliber, etc.. Gun control laws in Idaho, Montana & Wyoming for example could/should be different than those in more populated states. Would one expect a rancher or farmer or one living in a rural area to comply with the same laws as those in major urban areas?

The liberals will do anything to create more FEDERAL control because they think the Federal Government knows.

That said, I don't believe anyone, regardless needs to have a magazine that holds more than 10 rounds, nor does anyone need a Automatic Military Style Assault Weapon.

America demand the Impeachment of Vice President Joseph Biden for Violation of his Oath of Office to support and defend the Constitution of the United States both foreign or domestic.....

No, RWNJs demand the impeachment of Vice President Joseph Biden. Show me somewhere...anywhere, it the Constitution where is says "Congress shall make no laws restricting the access of criminals and the mentally ill to assault weapons and high capacity magazines".

I have here in my hand a list of two hundred and five people that were known to the Secretary of State as being members of the Communist Party and who nevertheless are still working and shaping the policy of the State Department. - Joseph R. McCarthy...and some people want to bring back the 50s...

I have no idea why so many are ranting about the government taking their guns, voiding the second amendment and other nutty things. We need to deal with this. Sign up for the Mark Kelly and Gabi Gifford's new organization. Keep in mind that they both have guns....not assault weapons, not high capacity magazines which no private citizen has a reason to have. No rational person thinks that the founding fathers envisioned such high powered guns. Remember how militias were formed. General McCrystal agrees that private citizens have no reason for them either that they are meant for soldiers. Someone give me one good reason for not having the same checks on people buying guns at a store but none at gunshows.

All that said, we need to find out why so many gun owners do not take proper security measures. Why do kids get their hands on them? Why are loaded guns left in cars with the kids able to get them?

Gun Control Freaks....By all means "Obey The Law" and attempt to repeal the 2nd Amendment of Our Bill Of Rights LEGALLY!

Until then please attempt to remain a "Law Abiding Citizen" and respect the Constitution of the United States and all of Our Bill Of Rights. Do not become a Enemy of Our Constitution by attacking it by any Unconditional Executive Orders, UN Treaties, Laws, Redefinitions or Reinterpretations of over 200 years of Our History of Rights!

Otherwise you and yours force US all to face the Natural Law of Unintended Consequences for nothing more than your Opinions and Theories!

Society in every state is a blessing, but government, even in its best stage,
is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one.~Thomas Paine

Sfcret,

Gun control laws in Idaho, Montana & Wyoming for example could/should be different than those in more populated states. Would one expect a rancher or farmer or one living in a rural area to comply with the same laws as those in major urban areas?

Tell me, does a rancher or farmer need a collapsible stock, bull-pup with a 100 round drum magazine? Or is that injecting way too much common sense into the argument?

MUW......exactly why guns need controlling. You are the freak.

MUW

Your pathetic paranoia is becoming seriously irritating. No one, I SAY AGAIN...NO ONE is suggesting repeal of the 2nd Amendment. No one is suggesting illegalizing firearms. No one is suggesting taking anyone's weapons.

ARE YOU LISTENING?

You know, you really don't have to live with us. Some of you have suggested seceding from the Union. Why don't you and your right-wing friends move to a state like...South Carolina, Virginia or perhaps Texas and do it...secede. No one will try to force you back like last time. You can have your own little "right to work" minimum wage, red state heaven. You can even force your women off of birth control and make them wear burkas and go bare foot. I promise, we won't make you come back...ever.

For those who point to Great Britain as an example of how "We" should be....

For 2011 Great Britain has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU and has been named the most Violent Country in the EU....In the UK there where 2,034 violent crimes per 100,000 people, which is way ahead of even South Africa's 1,609 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

In the United States we had 466 violent crimes per 100,000 people which is an almost a 1 to 5 ratio of Higher Violent Crime in Great Britain than in the US.

I get my information from the "Reality Check Piers Morgan vs Alex Jones Truth About Gun Homicide Rates" by Ben Swan....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8UN1e3nx6o

So where do you all get your "facts" from? Or where they just another "Gun Control" Corporate Mass Media Supplied Opinion?

I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children can live in peace. ~Thomas Paine

Reading the pro-gun proponents on here makes me more convinced than less convinced that gun control is a discussion long past having. I don't know how many times rational people have to keep repeating that no one wants to take your gun away if you are a licensed gun owner who keeps your gun for protection and/or hunting and target shooting. I think the vast majority of gun owners fall into this category. What I don't understand is why anyone needs an automatic weapon and multiple clip magazines for protection and for hunting and target shooting. If you need an automatic weapon and 10 rounds to shoot a deer or hit a target, perhaps you should take up knitting as a hobby. You need a license to drive a car why are you against background checks and registration to own a gun?

How about this one:

$500 tax per round of ammunition,( thanks Chris Rock).

Musket balls, which you can make yourself, are exempt. (Give the deer a chance, or better still, try bow hunting)

MUW,

Spitting on someone is classified as a violent crime in the UK. Alcohol fueled soccer fans account for a lot of the assaults.

Still Homicide is more than 4 times more likely in the US.

Why Ed? Are you any less killed or injured if they used a Knife or a Bat or have AIDS and spit upon you?

Maybe we have a 5 to our 1 less Violent Crime Ratio than the UK because the Criminals know we might "Pop A Cap" on them?

An armed society is a polite society. – Robert A. Heinlein

Ol_Doc - Are you just dense or don't you read a post before you reply. Where did I say that a rancher or farmer needs a collapsible stock, bull-pup with a 100 round drum magazine? Use common sense and read the last paragraph of my post at 1.130.

BTW, what's wrong with the States writing their own gun control laws or is that injecting to much common sense into the argument.

When will the "conversation" turn the real problem here in the United States (and the world for that matter) it's not gun violence" it's acts of violence - human on human acts of violence! Whether it's a gun, knife, hammer or car - it's an act of violence. It's easy to vilify the organization (The EVIL NRA) or the inanimate object (the so-called "assault weapon") because it's quick and make "everyone" feel better. But to have to look into the causes of human on human violence would require inflection and acknowledgement of failure of the 50-60 year old "social experiment" that this country has been trying to ram down it's citizens throat. We would have to acknowledge that the causes are - lack of morality, lack of personal responsibility and most of all - lack of respect for life and others! We can't do that as that would be an admittance of failure and that's just not PC.

By your own posts - you admit that banning "assault weapons" and hi-cap magazines might have not stopped the school or movie theater shootings but would have limited the amount of killings. Would one be correct to assume that you mean 6 people dying is ok but 20 isn't?

A gun is just a hunk of machined metal and a hi-cap magazine is just a stamped piece of metal - nothing more nothing less. It's not the gun, it's not the organization that's the problem here. Banning one or both or guns altogether is just treating the symptom and not the disease. But treating the symptom is what this country will do as it has always done and people will scream their head off the next time a shooting takes place as it will inevitably will.

On another thread Han Chueh said.... "Because we're not trying to change laws against violence in general. We're discussing changing laws to target gun violence."

So they are just trying to Disarm America for Their Corporate Masters and Chinese Globalists by any means including the Disseminating Falsifications, Disinformation & Propaganda and reducing Violent Crime has nothing to do with it?

Ah yes talk about Han Chueh and these other "Mysterious" Anti American Second Amendment Rights Posters trying to wiggle out of the "Real Truth". As I said to Han Chueh I sure hope you realize I will be "Quoting You" Internet wide......

“Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.” - Mao Zedong, “Problems of War and Strategy”, 1938

You just don't get it do you MUW.

I'll post clues to the real solution again.

US homicides 4.8 per 100,000. Canada 1.6, UK 1.2, Germany 0.8, France 1,1, Australia 1.0, Spain 0.8

Industrialized countries with strong social safety nets have much lower murder rates than the US.

With universal healthcare, extended unemployment insurance with retraining, daycare support, and welfare for those who need it, there would be no need to address the gun issue.

Take despiration out of the equasion, give everyone real opportunity to better themselves, and murder rates will fall below 2.0 per 100,000, without doing anything about guns.

Thank You hs321

I would have hope that more would go back and read what you posted.

"We were disappointed with how little this meeting had to do with keeping our children safe and how much it had to do with an agenda to attack the Second Amendment,"

Did anybody expect anything else from these morons of this administration, to boot, lead by the blind VP who hardly remembers his name.

What a cluster f@ck!

This seems to be a good place as any in this commentary debate, to repost this observation on a troubling trend occurring in the U.S., to go into private ownership of ever-more lethal firearms, on the premise of "patriotic" self-defense:

--------------------------

Received this satirical email from my friend majoring in Law, in Eau Claire, Wisconsin:

"An arms race on the streets, is on the rise. It's rocket launchers now ...or haven't you heard? Buyback programs are netting some heavy personal munitions. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57561115-504083/l.a-gun-buyback-collects-2-rocket-launchers-75-assault-weapons/ The gun nuts must be keeping the more powerful weapons for themselves, for future use, you know, home-made bombs, C4, grenades, chemical weapons, biological agents, 50-cal BFG's, napalm throwers, RPG's, rapid-fire mortar guns. I'm sure they'll rationalize how they imagine the 2nd Amendment protects their right to bear surface-to-surface missiles, as well. So the perps arm themselves with Rambo machine guns and concussion grenades. So what will armed teachers counter that threat with? Will they trash entire school campuses in the ensuing chaos of a firefight and end up with friendly fire on all sides of the smoke, with screaming, and raging flames engulfing classrooms? And only a fool would bring a 50 cal. to a pony nuke fight. In that case ...who wins?"

#5.6 - Fri Dec 28, 2012 4:33 PM PST

Excuse me ED-2874315 You just don't get it do you...Or at least you are intentionally unwilling to!

Well please allow me to repeat the facts once again.......

For 2011 Great Britain has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU and has been named the most Violent Country in the EU....In the UK there where 2,034 violent crimes per 100,000 people, which is way ahead of even South Africa's 1,609 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

In the United States we had 466 violent crimes per 100,000 people which is an almost a 5 to our 1 ratio of Higher Violent Crime in Great Britain than in the US.

Again I get my information from the "Reality Check Piers Morgan vs Alex Jones Truth About Gun Homicide Rates" by Ben Swan....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8UN1e3nx6o

Enough said.......

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. ~Abraham Lincoln

Wow, I can't remember when I've read so much bullsh!t. I own registered guns and think that is not enough to do for our safety. Only an idiot would think more laws will prevent gun violence and that person is not more an idiot than one that says they are after our guns.

What we are trying to arrive at is an intelligent way to keep gun violence from expanding into some Dodge City look alike.

WE CANNOT JUST DO NOTHING!

I have this fantasy that I put a bullet in the head of the NRA guy as he makes that stupid speach about the only answer to bad guys with guns are good guys with guns. What would the NRA say then. BTW: In my fantasy, I'm the good guy.

In the past I have been to shooting ranges and have seen and heard total ass holes posturing like they we big sh!t that would save us from our government. Some were saying how they were dying to shoot some liberal.

I'm over 80 now and as a 16 year old, I saw a schoolmate shot to death by a 15 year old that had a gun given him by his dad for "protection". His excuse was he thought the guy was a bully. Any idea how many bullies grow up to be OK people?

Zimmerman was a grown up bully dying to have an excuse to shoot someone.

It may be too late to make up for the 300 million guns already out there but why not have manufacturers fire a bullet for comparison and log it with the government with the serial number on the gun. It would help track shooters. I know whatever we do it will never be enough to stop all the gun violence, but, WE CAN'T JUST DO NOTHING.

Tell me, does a rancher or farmer need a collapsible stock, bull-pup with a 100 round drum magazine?

Geeze Doc, instead of playing Counter Strike, perhaps you can tell me and the rest of us the the reasons for collapsible and bull-pup stocks (hint they dont go together). Your mall ninjaness would have been complete if you used the words hostile, operator and tactical in the same sentence

The US today is not Germany during WWII.....how ridiculous can you get.

That's true. The nuts forget, or never bothered to learn, that Hitler armed his people to ward off the invading Allied armies. They also forget that he did not take power by force but was elected to office.

. What I don't understand is why anyone needs an automatic weapon and multiple clip magazines for protection and for hunting and target shooting.

oh I dont know, tyranny from within our government. quit being arrogant, naive POS's thinking such a scenario isnt possible. Obviously the Founding Fathers thought it was necessary.

The nuts forget, or never bothered to learn, that Hitler armed his people to ward off the invading Allied armies.

yeah, he did this when again? at the gates of Berlin? talk about bothering to learn.

They also forget that he did not take power by force but was elected to office

just like Palpatine. better go read your history again their champ.

Who gives a rat's aXX what the NRA thinks or all these would be Rambo's who want to protect themselves from "Tyranny". They wouldn't know tyranny if it bit them in the aXX.

Anyone else remember President Obama and his Unconstitutional Powers of Indefinite Detentions Without Trial, Warrant-less Searches Spying and Wire Tapping Killer Drones and his new Presidential Kill List all being brought to US within the last few years by these Corporate Corrupted and Controlled Political Minions of Wall Street?

That and ONLY that kind of Tyranny is why we have the 2nd Amendment to Our Bill of Rights and yet once again the Corporate Owned Media and their endless supporting Social Manipulators are still out attempting to build False Consensus to Disarm America for their Corporate Masters!

Wake Up America when was the last time ANY of these Wall Street Oligarchs and Robber Barons or any of their Political Stooges have done something good for US instead of bad to US?

Demand the Impeachment of Vice President Joseph Biden for the Violation of his Oath of Office to support and defend the Constitution of the United States from all Enemies both foreign and domestic....Which includes these "Mega Corporations" who now control all of our Government and their Political Puppets who are attempting to take away our means to defend ourselves from their Masters!

I prefer peace. But if trouble must come, let it come in my time, so that my children can live in peace. ~Thomas Paine

Considering the typical rhetoric and wrapping themselves in their "understanding" of the 2nd Amendment by Uncle Wayne and the NRA re any form of firearm regulation, it's painfully obvious the only recommendation they would even consider supporting would be a howitzer on every lawn and a .38 in every kid's lunchbox.
The NRA have proven themselves yet again to be anything but germane to any reasonable dialogue and discussion involving firearm regulation. Period.

To tonybeerm... you're correct... at the end, he DID give weapons to his people... but only after the majority of them were killed by Allied Forces retaking Euroupe. As for him elected, that's true too, but only because he banded the people with promises of strenght and economic power. He lied to his people and made it a socail issue that Germans were the Master Race. Our racist in the White House is doing the same thing Hitler did... promises of safety and security. By taking ANY of our Constitiutional rights away is a bridge to taking the others away. What's next, the racists in the White House decides it's in our best interest to start putting infringements on the 1st Amendment? If he can take away the 2nd Amendment, what's to stop him from all others?

You just don't understand how fragile freedom is... and this racist in the White House can't wait to start taking ours away.

Yes, I can say, without doubt, that the racist in the White House is no more than what Hilter was in the beginning. The ONLY thing we have to protect us IS the Constitution!

Look at Syria and how well their Constitiution has helped them... their new president used HIS executve powers to do way with their Constitution, much like ours is now...

Why should 4.2 million NRA members hold America hostage at gun point?

It's patently obvious that Biden and the rest of the gun grabbers are rushing as fast as they can to push their agenda so they can circumvent any emergence of reason and logic.

If anyone would care to recall, this is exactly how Obama got his healthcare abomination passed. Remember Pelosi: "you have to vote for it before you can know what's in it".

They are the masters of deceit.

"We were disappointed with how little this meeting had to do with keeping our children safe and how much it had to do with an agenda to attack the Second Amendment,"

This is because their goals have nothing to do with protecting anyone. They are simply using such incidents as cover for their true agenda, disarming Americans.

Thank God her and her family is still alive! How would your's react, dead or alive?

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/01/10/16449815-911-tape-shoot-him-again-husband-tells-wife-hiding-from-home-intruder?lite

Pippo Shillaci-

WE CAN'T JUST DO NOTHING

You are right! We can't just do nothing but we also can't just pass laws just for the sake of feeling good and a warped sense of accmplishment either. And that's all these laws (and previous onee) are just feel good, pat myself on the back, we made the world a "better" place laws. You want to do something - then demand that the cause of these violent acts is found out and changes made to stop them. Changes to society will have longer lasting, if not permanent, effect on any act of violence - gun or otherwise. We need to remove the REASONS for wanting to use a gun, knife or bat to hurt/kill someone. But I seriously doubt that we will do that as we are a country of instant gratification, do something so I can go back to my "life" people.

So sick and tired of this knee jerk reaction to guns. More people are killed by vehicles, alchohol and knives each year than guns. All the mass shootings were committed by people who were mentally challenged or just crazy. But no one is really doing anything about that, only talking about how to restrict or infringe upon the rights of the people regarding guns and capacity of mags. Go figure, put the liberals and progressives in charge and all they want to do is restrict guns and figure out ways to take away rights of the people. Whether sane, insane or just mentally challenged, if that person wants to kill someone or many, that person will find the way. Don't forget, those people are very smart and no matter which way they choose to committ their crime, they will committ it. Do not loose the context of the second amendment, our rights must not be infringed upon period. I am a gun owner, I do not belong to the NRA, I will not register my guns but I will keep myself safe and I will be watching my government very closely. I do not plan to kill anyone anywhere, merely to protect myself and country.

We register our cars....our homes...boats and other things of value. Why? To show legal ownership of those items, and to track legal ownership of those items. Why would a gun be any different?

Consider that most guns used by criminals didn't just fall from the sky, they came from somewhere. 90% of all guns used in a criminal act are stolen. That puts the safe keeping responsibility on the people that own them. Lock them up via gun safe or trigger locks. It won't stop them but it would slow this down.

Arming everyone with guns is way out there. How would you be able to determine who is the bad guy? Are you going to shoot at the person shooting? What if he/she was not the "bad guy" but someone that was trying to stop it. How about we ask all the "bad guys" to wear black hats? What would a law look like if we had everyone running around with guns? Look to your state laws on justifiable homicide and see if your gun fits that.

I don't want to hear any paranoid bull about the tyrannical government out to get us. We have a military now which we didn't have when the second amendment was written.....If you want to play that game then all you are allowed is a musket, as that was the weaponry considered in the armed militia part of the second amendment when it was written.

If it came right down to trying to overthrow the US government China or some other nation would be more than happy to arm you.....Oh wait that would be an act of war or terrorism.

One of the other things that I have noticed about these nut jobs is that they are mostly right to lifers.....let us keep these things that kill the living, but don't you dare have an abortion.....Give me a break.

The fact that the NRA was even invited surprised me. Only an idiot would not know what their position is and how they plan to enforce it on everyone else:

"we will now take our commitment and meaningful contributions" read that as bribes for politicians who support their death making equipment.

If you don't agree with the agenda of the Gun Manufacturers mouthpieces, they will try to scare you into agreeing with them.

They are nothing but supporters of the corporate manufacturers of death.

If nothing else comes out of this, the law giving Gun Manufacturers immunity from tort for their inherently dangerous product MUST BE overturned.

To the Gun Control Proponents

Sadly my beloved Country of the United States has been disenfranchised by some Corporate Robber Barons & Banksters who have bought off all of the Politicians and Judges and are now attempting to Disarm all of the Peasants Peons and Slaves of which I am sadly one of the least.

If they had attempted to change the Constitution of my beloved Republic Legally well that would have been a different story, but since these Crooks & Thieves didn't bother and instead just took over and installed the Plutocracy, I fear that we will once again see brother turn against brother and sister turn against sister before our freedom is restored or our nation is enslaved!

As an American doesn't that story make you sad? Now I fear that since these "BAD GUYS" have insisted on corrupting My Country and My Bill Of Rights we have entered into the Natural Law of Unintended Consequences where no man or woman can control or even say what will happen next.

For over 200 years we have been the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave because now we are merely the Land of the Corporation and the Home of the Slave

Wouldn't that make you Unhappy? Perhaps you and yours should leave America first since you are the ones wanting to trade Our Rights for Your Opinions"!

Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.~Thomas Paine

Muw,

I agree with your first statement up to bankers! It is a sad say when the NRA membership of only 4.2million can hold 320,000,000 Americans hostage! If the NRA isn't happy then I am!

Get the registration lists and go door to door collecting these assault weapons and multi-round gun clips! Tear their houses apart with search warrants if needed.

Nothing will ever be ok with the sissie NRA thieves, short of everyone being able to have any arms they want. The NRA is a thieving bunch of liars. They cause the absurd prices of arms and ammo. They sell fear each and every day. What a bunch of scumbags at the national level of the NRA do is a dishonor to the real hunters and gun owner in America.

clwyd-2621393......Then please leave America if you do not want to obey the Constitution....There are many other Countries where the "People" do not have ANY Rights so....please by all means...Get gone!

Otherwise please attempt to repeal the 2nd Amendment legally or quit Preaching and Supporting Treason against the Constitution of the United States until then.

We are a Democratic Republic and NOT A Corporate Plutocracy!

plu·toc·ra·cy /ploÍžoˈtäkrÉ™sÄ“/ Noun

1. Government by the wealthy.
2. A country or society governed in this way.

PS And don't forget to demand that Vice President Joseph Biden be Impeached for Violating his Oath of Office to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies both foreign and domestic (which includes Corporate)!

I took that Oath...Did you?

Try to halt violence by restricting gun ownership and you won't halt violence. But you will create entire classes of new criminals – people who make paperwork errors, violate technical specification of the law, or rebel against the new restrictions. And you'll create new bureaus, new enforcement arms, new prisons to punish them. You'll make hordes of lawyers and bureaucrats very happy. Organized criminals will be grateful to the naive moral crusaders ("useful idiots") as they profit by selling an illegal product. And ordinary street criminals will bless fools, legislators, and "leaders" for making their job so much safer. – JPFO's "Bill of Rights Sentinel", Fall 2001

MUW.

This is America not the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany that you seem to envision. If you are so afraid of losing our democracy then don't support the republican governors trying to suppress voters rights. Move to someplace you would feel safer, as I feel perfectly safe from our government. But I don't feel that safe from all republicans governs however!

MUM,

Sorry, bub, the 2nd Amendment clearly begins with the words, "A well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state." It means the people or citizens of the militia, not everyone! I've just offered you the door! Take those D@^^ guns away from you nut cases!

MUM,

And while you're are at it don't forget we have a former president called bush who the World Court in the Hague has a warrant out for his arrest for "War Crimes!" Why else has he been in hiding in Crawford, Texas for most of the last 4+ years!

The assault rifles, shotguns, and handguns that I own are not for sport. They are for protecting my rights and the lives of myself and my family IF NEEDED. You may not like it, but I don't care. I will not give up any of my weapons for anything. I feel more safe with them. I don't trust our government or any government. Why would I put my trust in someone elses hands that I have never had the chance to get to know? All our government has done is help make our country more polarizing. I am afraid what the future holds for all of us, but my family and I will be prepared for anything that comes. Whackos are going to get their hands on weapons whether or not laws are in place to "prevent" it from happening. Putting laws in place to prevent crimes does not gaurantee it will not happen. Because of that we should all be able to defend ourselves if need be.

Psst clwyd-2621393 Unlike you I see NO DIFFERENCE in a Republican or a Democrat for they have the exact same Corporate Masters on Wall Street telling them what to do!

Unlike NAZI Germany or the Soviet Union we have Codified the Unconstitutional Powers of Indefinite Detentions Without Trial, Warrant-less Searches Spying and Wire Tapping Killer Drones and his new Presidential Kill List all of which has been brought to US within the last few years by these Corporate Corrupted and Controlled Political Minions of Wall Street.

Remember or have you Willfully forgotten those little details?

I am glad you "Feel Safe" from Tyranny but that is irrelevant, you have an Opinion we have a Right...See the difference?

If you want your opinion to become a "Right" do so LEGALLY and Work To Repeal the Second Amendment by Law (good luck with that). Otherwise please obey the Law of the Land and Respect Our Constitution and Our Bill Of Rights!

PS please allow me to repeat myself.....Demand the Impeachment of Vice President Joseph Biden for the Violation of his Oath of Office to support and defend the Constitution of the United States from all Enemies both foreign and domestic...

1. Lisst of registered gun owners.

2. Search Warrants

3. Remove the the guns that are Assault Weapons.

4. Remove the multi-round clips.

5. With Congress approval or without! (Executive Order) Bush used it 30 some times in 8 years why not Obama once?

From the writers of the Constitution.

"On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." (Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823,

“Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.” (Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776

"The thoughtful reader may wonder, why wasn't Jefferson's proposal of ‘No freeman shall ever be debarred the use of arms’ adopted by the Virginia legislature? They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.)

"The Constitution shall never be construed...to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." (Samuel Adams, Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 86-87)

As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." (Tench Coxe in ‘Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution' under the Pseudonym ‘A Pennsylvanian' in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, June 18, 1789 at 2 col. 1)

It means no limit in the power of the arm.

The only criminals I see are the same old mass murders and today was no exception in Taft, California another school shooting. On the 7th 4 women killed in Tulsa, apartment, On the 6th Aurora, Colorado 4 dead including the suspect. and On the 5th NY man kills mother over TV Show argument. ( These aren't robberies but executions) That does not include the fact that over 11,000 murders took place in the US with guns last year, mostly by neighbor killing neighbor, family member killing family member, in Malls, in Schools, at Universities, in movie theaters. Mostly with registered legal guns not by criminals! Oh, the United Kingdom had 22 deaths from guns last year!

clwyd-2621393...Please make sure you are one of the first to attempt to disarm America in Violation of the Second Amendment Of Our Bill Of Rights...OK?

I would look forward to seeing the beginning of that event though I know not where it would end!

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure.~Thomas Jefferson

MUW

As an American doesn't that story make you sad? Now I fear that since these "BAD GUYS" have insisted on corrupting My Country and My Bill Of Rights we have entered into the Natural Law of Unintended Consequences where no man or woman can control or even say what will happen next.

That doesn't make me sad it makes me want to puke. How esoteric, but yet trite.

We have way too many people in this country,as well as a free press to have your bill of rights corrupted.

My guess is that your not gay...well I am, and I can say that as far as someone not getting equal treatment under the law, that we have been able to have our rights slowly recognized as equal because of education and the understanding of the masses. That is a system working not broken.

"Otherwise please attempt to repeal the 2nd Amendment legally or quit Preaching and Supporting Treason against the Constitution of the United States until then."

It is you that doesn't understand how an amendment is done to the constitution. It has been done many times since it was written, and will be in the future....All very legal, as we have what are called checks and balances in our government. I don't think you fully understand what treason means, under the meaning, your words here could be considered treason.

You might want to do some research before you pontificate.

Kevin,

How sad to be in such fear! how about iron bars too on your doors and windows. If you live in California you probably already have them!

This thread is like a broken record. You guys have been spewing stuff at each other for decades and nothing has been done. There is an unofficial truce between sides with abortion and the 2nd amendment. If either side crosses the line, then the fighting starts again. What will the democrats have to give up in order to get this law?

Just FYI:

There were over 600,000 hunters
this season in the state of Wisconsin ..
Allow me to restate that number: 600,000

Over the last several months, Wisconsin 's hunters became the eighth largest army in the world

More men under arms than in Iran .

More than France and Germany combined.

These men deployed to the woods of a single American state, Wisconsin , to hunt with firearms, and no one was killed.

That number pales in comparison to the 750,000 who hunted the woods of Pennsylvania and Michigan 's 700,000 hunters, all of whom have now returned home safely.
Toss in a quarter million hunters
in West Virginia and it literally establishes the fact that the hunters of those four states alone
would comprise the largest army in the world.
And then add in the total number of hunters in the other 46 states.
It's millions more.

The point?

America will forever be safe from foreign invasion with that kind of home-grown firepower.

Hunting...
it's not just a way to fill the freezer. It's a matter of national security.

That's why all enemies, foreign and domestic,
want to see us disarmed.

Food for thought...when next they consider gun control.

Overall it's true, so if we disregard some assumptions that hunters don't possess the same skills as soldiers, the question would still remain..
What army of 2 million would want to face 30, 40, 50 million armed citizens???

Mum,

If the laws change and you refuse to obey them then who will be the criminal and guns used against you. I can only hope!

You and others are wondering why is this guy so outspoken on guns? I had a step-sister in a wheelchair from a stroke living in Arkansas, unfortunately. Her neighbor was a gun nut and wanted to protect his property from everyone and everything. He got drunk one night and mistook my sister's house for his when he came home and thought she was an intruder. He shot her 5 times and killed her. Just another drunk on rights gun nut!

Rob, Wi,

And how many two legged animals did they kill again this year? A friend in southwestern, Wisconsin had a bullet come through their babies window and miss the crib by about 2 feet. Yes, the baby was in it!

None of those 600,000 hunters were out in the filed with Assault Weapons and multi-bullet clips. I they were they should have been arrested! 4.2 million NRA members should not hold the 320,000,000 other Americans hostage!

Muw,

With what happened to my step-sister I would be glad to come to disarm you, if the laws change! Or at least try to!

clwyd-2621393

Why should 4.2 million NRA members hold America hostage at gun point.

You are such an idiot. No NRA member, was involve in any of those incidents.

If we stop blaming the gun and ignore the shooter we are missing an opportunity to find solutions to stop those atrocious evil acts.

Muw,

They've done a thorough job brainwashing you. From your cold dead hands if that's the way you want to play it. Oh and it's 'Land of the afraid' that's the impression you give anyway. Too late for tinfoil, I feel sorry for you.

Ya Ya Once again out comes an anecdotal story never meant to be provable or supported on why "Guns Are Bad" and "Corporate Tyranny is Good".

Well that and threats to shoot them Gun Owning American Banditos down like Dogs...Or something like that!

So clwyd-2621393 and Steve-356433 what are you going to do if Lord Obama Dictates by Decree an Executive Order to Confiscates All of these Scary Black Rifles and most Americans refuse? Worse when the "Police" show up to start America suddenly starts looking like Greece on a Very Bad Day!

What happens when members of the Military & Police who obey their Oaths and take Umbrage to Mass Civilian Causalities and start shooting the people shooting the people?

Are you going to "Man Up" and admit you helped turn America into Somalia? Or are you simply going to be the first in line to Violate the Constitution and to kill or enslave your fellow Americans by Executive Order?

And you wonder why you people scare US?

Sic semper tyrannis

oskar

You are such an idiot. No NRA member, was involve in any of those incidents.

If we stop blaming the gun and ignore the shooter we are missing an opportunity to find solutions to stop those atrocious evil acts.

Let's be very clear for the benefit of boneheads who believe that gun responsibility debates have anything to do with "blaming the gun." No one ... NO ONE .... is blaming the gun. We are blaming people and when we strive to have regulations concerning guns those regulations are all about regulating THE BEHAVIOR OF PEOPLE. Guns are inanimate objects. This country does not pass laws regulating the behavior of things. Laws regulate the behavior of people.

You call other people "idiot" then make a completely ridiculous statement about guns and shooters. Why don't you think about getting on board with some reasonable regulations that will result in fewer people becoming shooters?

Muw, I would cheer even louder for him to do so!

This was not a meeting, that is where people meet and exchange ideas both ways. This was a press release, their minds have already been made up.

How does an executive order usurp the constitution of the united states? Who made the odummer administration a fascist dictator?

How about some actual facts instead of emotional out cries?

According to FBI.gov statistics not those from a lobbying group who advocate policy.

Since 1992 Violent crime is down 50% the Murder rate is down 54%.

Why isn’t the Media reporting the considerable improvement in violent crime?

In 2011 of all the homicides committed by firearms, only 3.5% were committed with rifles and the AR15 is only a subset of the rifle group. Assault weapon ban should really help out here? LOL

In England where guns are banned:

Violent crime ratio per 100,000 = 1,361. This is 3 and half times that of the US.

This is simply about the government gaining more control over the populace. Not one of the Obama initiatives will significantly improve our safety. If you want better safety follow Arizona, you know the ones who the president keeps suing.

This just more communist crawl.

oskar,

But for some reason they are standing in the way of taking the assault weapons that killed so many away from being sold. They are holding us hostage to their vanity and none of this excuse about protecting freedom!

Why should 4.2 million NRA members hold America hostage at gun point?

I don't know. Why should WE eighty five million LEGAL, LAW-ABIDING gun owners be held hostage by a Stalinist Administration and have our Constitutional rights thrown into the trash because of the actions of a few fiends who go bezerko???

You know, if you find guns sooo bad, move to Mexico where they are banned, you will be so much safer there.

CLWYD: and I suppose that if someone kills another when driving drunk that we should get rid of all the cars starting with yours. Your comment is about the stupidest comment I've seen on here tonight. Please move to a country where the populace is unarmed, you deserve each other.

Dav1bg,

So if Obama uses an executive order to change the law he is a dictator? Bush used 30 executive orders so he is 30X's worse? I just can't believe the ignorance of those of you on the right? Hypocrites and uneducated!

Back to the Same old lame excuses from the lefties for getting rid of all guns in this country. But you can bet your cahonies the first ones they would follow would be someone with a gun if they ever felt threatened physically.

Sandy Hook while tragic is not any reason for the knee jerk reaction we are getting from the media and this administration. No new gun laws will not prevent this from happening again. Just look at David Gregory had a thirty round clip from a semi automatic within the District of Columbia on national television. There have been laws on the book for years banning them in D.C. Although his intentions were not malicious fact is he broke the law. Probably with little effort. Should David Gregory be subject to the same juris prudence as someone with a police record?

The real points are the mental health system Failed by not getting the proper treatments for Lanza. The mother Failed miserably at keeping her weapons in a secure location (i.e. a safe) A gun is a mechanical tool, just as a pipe wrench. A pipe wrench cannot loosen a fitting by itself, neither can a gun fire without being loaded BY SOMEONE. and the trigger being pulled BY SOMEONE.

clwyd-2621393....So says the person who would stand up and cheer at the deaths of Honest Americans Defending Our Bill Of Rights......See Folks this is the kind of People these Gun Control Freaks associate with!

Gleefully looking forward to the day that America fails to Plutocratic Dictatorship and Enslavement...I would laugh but they are DEADLY Serious about both their aims and goals!

Fortunately for US the United States Military has sworn their Oath Not to Barrack H Obama but instead to the Constitution of the United States and the American People!

They have the Wall Street Corporations Contractors and their Corrupt Political Minions, while we still have the Army Navy Air Force & Marines! Oops I almost forgot and the Coast Guard and Boy/Girl Scouts who can probably do the "Heavy Lifting" of ridding US of these Corporate Parasites by themselves!!

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure.~Thomas Jefferson

davibg,

Why when I can actively work to make this country safer without them!

The current gun laws in this country ensure that guns, including and especially war weapons, will be in the hands of people who should never have guns.

This is the price that the entire society pays because we have a radical fringe of people, supported by the gun manufacturer-supported NRA, that equates guns with freedom and legislated gun responsibility with tyranny.

Just about anything "vice president" Joke Biteme does is DISAPPIONTING ! Perhaps its because of untreated alcoholism or maybe just his total incompetence. Another misfit, foulball, loser on the sinking Obama ship of state!

Hello folks, everyone keeps skirting around the 2nd Amendment constitutional right. If you don't like it there is a process to alter it or get rid of it. If people get loud enough and ask for an interpretation of the 2nd Amendment again, the Supreme Court will get involved but I don't think the antigun proponents are going to like how the Supreme Court has ruled on this in the past.

In one of the biggest cases which ended up a major victory for supporters of gun rights, the Supreme Court said the "right to bear arms" guaranteed by the Second Amendment severely limits the ability of state and local governments to restrict access to guns.

You can whine and moan all you want about what our forefathers meant or didn’t mean when it comes to the 2^nd Amendment but until it is changed the Constitution right will be held up.

No Davibg,

Cars don't have triggers or scopes!

If NRA is disappointed then the meeting must have gone well.

We do have gun laws. Most of the anti-gun crowd seem to think we have no restrictions. There are lots of laws and restrictions, so please to not act their are none. Automatic weapons are already restricted. If what is proposed is closing loop holes on background checks then I think all gun owners could live with that. If it means banning semi-auto weapons then it is ridiculous. If it means banning guns that "look like" (but don't function anything like) a military style automatic weapon then it is totally ridiculous. No one even knows what is being proposed. My guess is whatever it is it will have little to do with preventing these tragedies. Also, what has been under reported nationally is the mall shooter in Oregon who killed two people.....the reason he only killed two people was a legal gun owner pulled his weapon and aimed it at the shooter. He did not fire because he did not want to to shoot any innocent victims who were running everywhere. BUT the shooter definitely saw him, then fled down a hall way where the next bullet he fired killed himself. This lawful gun owner probably saved 50 lives and never fired a bullet. So, please do not act like the weapons never save lives. At Clackamas mall in the middle or the Christmas rush a shooter could have killed hundreds of people. Lastly, most gun murders in this country happen in our inner cities where we have a thug gun culture and nearly all the murders are committed with guns that were illegally acquired. These guys will get weapons with or without laws. There is not magic potion that we make to insure these tragedies don't happen.

The best solution would be to have certain teachers and/or administrators within our schools volunteer to be trained to use and allowed to carry a concealed weapon at school. They could be paid extra for this responsibility, just as a coach is paid extra for coaching. I would feel much more comfortable with that then armed guards. It would be low cost and would be more effective than anything else. Just the threat of someone shooting back would probably prevent these idiots from attacking our schools, though they may very well look for other softer targets.

I usually enjoy your posts.

This is the most vapid one I've seen. Too bad.

I thought you were more intelligent and less reactionary than this. More objective.

Apparently not.

Sensible gun control? You mean like the laws against clips and silencers?

Slaughter. Now that's a riot. I won't even bother to post links to actual government statistics that show that our country is getting safer - except for a particular demographic - young black men, who seem to love to kill each other in increasing numbers.

Gun control worked wonders for DC and Chicago. LOL.

Welp, you're no better than the other frothy ignoramuses on newsvine. Too bad.

I expected better.

List of 15 mass shootings stopped by Armed Citizens

The fine folks at the Gun Watch blog have compiled a list of mass shootings over the years that have been stopped or minimized due to intervention from armed citizens. As usual, you will not see this reported anywhere in the mainstream media.

Mass Killings Stopped by Armed Citizens

There are several documented cases where armed citizens have stopped mass attacks by gunmen. Let me list a few: The Pearl, Mississippi school shooting was stopped by the vice principal Joel Myrick with a Colt .45, The Appalachian School shooting was stopped by two students with handguns. Both of the above incidents were stopped by the armed citizens threatening the shooter without firing.

Pearl High School Link

Appalacian Law School Link

Plans to slay everyone in the Muskegon, Michigan, store and steal enough cash and jewelry to feed their “gnawing hunger for crack cocaine” fell apart for a band of would-be killers after one of their victims fought back.

Muskegon Shooting Link

The mass church shooting in Colorado Springs was stopped by the shooter being shot by a church member with a CCW permit.

New Life Church Link

The Santa Clara gunshop shooting in 1999 was stopped by an armed citizen after the shooter declared that he was going to kill everyone. Police found a list of intended victims in his car. Only the perpetrator, Richard Gable Stevens was shot.

Santa Clara Gunshop Link

The December, 1991, Aniston, Alabama defense where a CCW holder stopped armed robbers who were herding employees, customers, and his wife into a cooler. He shot both robbers, killing one.

Aniston Shoney’s Shooting Link

July 13, 2009, in Virginia at the Golden Food Market: The gunman tried to shoot several people, was stopped by a CCW carrier.

Golden Food Market Shooting Link

Just recently, in Early Texas, armed citizen Vic Stacy shot and stopped a deranged man who had just murdered two neighbors and was firing at police with a rifle. Stacy made a very long shot with his revolver, three times as far as the perpetrator was from the police officer, who had an AR-15 type rifle.

Early Texas Peach House Shooting Link

That sounds like a very good story… but it never made the national news.

I wonder who made the decision to spike that story.

Of course, when a mass shooting is stopped by an armed citizen, there are not as many victims. This leads to the charge that it would not really have been a “mass shooting”.

I have added this incident at the request of a reader:

Abraham Dickman had a history of anger against employees of the AT&T store in New York Mills, New York. On May 27th, 2010, he walked into the store with a .357 and a list of six employees. He shot the first employee, but was stopped from further attacks when Donald J. Moore, an off duty police officer who was allowed to carry his own handgun when not on duty, drew and fired his .40 caliber, killing Mr. Dickman before he could fire any more shots.

AT&T store Link

Here is another likely candidate.

College Park, GA, May 4, 2009.

Two gunman entered a party and ordered the men separated from the women. Then they started counting bullets. “The other guy asked how many (bullets) he had. He said he had enough,” said Bailey.

When one of the assailants prepared to rape a girl, a student was able to access a handgun and engage the two attackers in a firefight, driving one off and killing the other before the thug could rape his girlfriend.

“I think all of us are really cognizant of the fact that we could have all been killed,” said Bailey.

College Park Link

Another off duty police officer stopped the Trolley Square shooting with his personal handgun. He stopped the killing and contained the shooter until police reinforcements arrived and ended the situation.

Trolley Square Shooting Link

Winnemucca NV shooting, 25 May, 2008

The shooter, Ernesto Villagomez, entered the Players Bar and Grill and killed two people. He reloaded and was continuing to shoot when a citizen with a concealed carry permit shot him and stopped the killing.

Winnemuca Shooting Link

Parker Middle School Dance Shooting

14 Year old Andrew Jerome Wurst Killed one person and wounded three others when he was confronted by James Strand who subdued Wurst with a shotgun and held him until police arrived.

Parker Middle School Dance Shooting LinK

Destiny Christian Center Shooting, April 24, 2012

Kiarron Parker rammed his car into another in the church parking lot, got out and attempted to kill multiple church members. He was only able to kill one before a member of the congregation, the nephew of the lady killed, and an off duty police officer, drew his handgun and shot Parker, stopping the killing.

Destiny Christian Center Shooting LinK

Tyler Courthouse shooting, 2005 While police officers were involved in this shooting before and after Mark Alan Wilson intervened, no more people were killed after he shot the shooter, who had body armor, and who was able to return fire and kill the CCW holder, Wilson.

Tyler Courthouse Shooting Link

From http://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2012/12/mass-killings-stopped-by-armed-citizens.html

• !

#805 - Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:57 PM EST

Can just one person name a single mass murderer that went out and 'registered' the weapon used before the carnage?

Second Amendment:

The whole premise was not to have standing armies that could be used for nefarious purpose by unscrupulous leaders in pursuit of political ideals or financial gain. Aristocratic, Communist, and totalitarian societies have the regulations you seek. When you fear your countrymen you have no country. Instruments do not cause death. People do. That is the problem. The terrorists didn't even use semi-automatic weapons, most serial killers and mass murderers also do not use high capacity magazines. Look elsewhere for your remedy.

Hello folks,

On Sunday December 16, 2012, 2 days after the CT shooting, a man went to a restaurant in San Antonio to kill his ex-girlfriend. After he shot her, most of the people in the restaurant fled next door to a theater.

The gunman followed them and entered the theater so he could shoot more people. He started shooting and people in the theater started running and screaming. It’s like the Aurora, CO theater story plus a restaurant!

Now aren’t you wondering why this isn’t a lead story in the national media along with the school shooting?

There was an off duty county deputy at the theater. SHE pulled out her gun and shot the man 4 times before he had a chance to kill anyone. So since this story makes the point that the best thing to stop a bad person with a gun is a good person with a gun, the media is treating it like it never happened.

Only the local media covered it. The city is giving her a medal next week. Just thought you’d like to know.

What the sheeple don't understand here is that if you give the government an inch they will take a mile. Understand this folks, the ultimate goal is to disarm you and we will not let it happen.

clwyd-2621393,

I'll give you some advice to maybe add some credibility to your argument. For one, its magazines, not clips. Also, only 3 murders have been committed with assault weapons since 1932. Two of those were by law enforcement officers with their issued weapon. I'm sorry for your loss of your sister, I feel pained in the same way in which some of my family was taken away by drunk driving. Its not the gun or the alcohol/vehicle's fault, but solely the individual who decided their right to do something evil/foolish was superior to your and my right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

God bless

TrustVerify And the Wall Street Controlled Corporate Media almost to a Person never said a word! This is all about the Oligarchs demand that "We The People" be Disarmed and their Willingness to use even an Horrendous Atrocity to their OWN Benefit.

But I suspect after all of the Corporate Smoke & Mirrors blows away it will pretty much be the same ole same ole! Of course if the Obomination really wants to be Impeached he can always try the Biden sneak around Congress approach and create another "Executive Dictation"!

But I suspect Bumbling Barry is a little too trap wary to fall something that obviously to Biden's advantage! You know Sleepy Joe better "Hurry Up" if he still wants to be President!

The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure.~ Thomas Jefferson

Has anyone noticed that MUW, in one of his earliest posts stated that he didn't want any "liberal leaning" government deciding who is and is not sane (i.e., in good mental health) and who therefore may or may not be permitted to have a gun? And look at the nonsense and vitriol he has spewed since then. Perhaps he knows that he would not pass a mental health test if one were required?

And yet many people, while not wishing to confiscate anyone's guns (despite what MUW thinks), want some real-world mental health aspects of gun ownership evaluated and possibly implemented. In fact, a great many people have stated that we should look at mental health issues first, then at gun control issues.

I doubt very much that, in the present atmosphere, any reasonable person (of whom MUW is clearly not one) would advocate wholesale access to guns even for the mentally-ill.

I would like to think that Mr. Justice Scalia, even with his 'original textualism' viewpoints could see the benefit in keeping guns out of the hands of the mentally ill.

And by the way, Wyoming and any number of other states can attempt to nullify Federal law all they want. The US Constitution is the governing body of law in this country, not individual state constitutions, when the two conflict. The so-called lawmakers in Wyoming are grandstanding, nothing more.

The NRA is disappointed? Good! They are going to get a lot more disappointment in the future.

This is a good day for America.

don97524

oskar

Let's be very clear for the benefit of boneheads who believe that gun responsibility debates have anything to do with "blaming the gun."

How you dare call me boneheads, The debates that are so called “gun responsibility” is not about gun responsibility, is about gun restriction “ blame the gun”. You don't regulate responsability , you teach responsability and the goverment want to regulate.

.……..those regulations are all about regulating THE BEHAVIOR OF PEOPLE. Guns are inanimate objects. …….

Regulations are also for “inanimate objects” ( arms) base on size, power, range , use. Regulation is also about trade, and ownership, documentations, background checks none of those are part of “THE BEHAVIOR OF PEOPLE” .

Why don't you think about getting on board with some reasonable regulations that will result in fewer people becoming shooters?

Can you give me some regulations that result in fewer people became mental ill.?

Note

Only 1 child was shot 11 times according to the medical examiner, and most were shot at least 2 times. That is a far cry from "Some children were shot 11 times being promoted by the left.

Second thing

Also, No mention from authorities as to just how many rounds were fired. Someone putting numbers on it is simply also over dramaticizing the situation.

publia please refrain from spewing petty insults and condescending belittlement's. Also do not assume because you read MSNBC that is "Reflective" of the Nations attitude as a whole because it is not...Not by any stretch of even YOUR imagination!

As soon as you point out what would be required to do a Psychological Examination prior to purchase and who would most likely be disqualified such as the Blacks, Mexicans, Native Americans Prior Victims of Crime, Veterans, Poor Disabled Elderly etc etc etc then suddenly almost NOBODY supports your "Rich White Man Only" nonsense!

BTW after reading all of the "Anger" in your "Rant" I don't think you would qualify either!

Hmm sounds like No More Guns to be Bought or Sold in America if this "Infringement" Passes...Or is that the point?

"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are ruined…The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able might have a gun." – Patrick Henry

oskar,

Universal healthcare in other countries, results in fewer people staying mentally ill.

clwyd-2621393

I need to correct you hugely on one mis-statement you mentioned above:

Yes, Bush had 30+ Executive Orders.. However, you are SO VERY WRONG in that Obama has only had one.. one? hahaha try over 900!! He's using the Executive Orders as his way of creating laws he knows darned well Congress would dig their heels in with.

Here are some REAL stats. Note correct rate on stable comparative population number of 100,000! UK homicides by firearms PER 100,000 population, UKGB = 0.07, USA = 2.97.

Firearms:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

All violent crime: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri-crime-total-crimes

Rise in violent crime in US in 2012: http://www.cnn.com/2012/10/17/us/violent-crime/index.html

I'm telling you this Executive Order thingy is Sleepy Joe's way of getting the Obomination Impeached by Congress for going around Congress! I mean what better way to "repay" Bailout Barry for all of his Unkindness?

Any one taking bets? Is it going to be the Old Fat Crooked Corporate White Guy or the Suave and Sophisticated but Corporate Corrupted Half Black Guy who gets Impeached First for Violating their Oath of Office to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies both foreign and domestic (including their Corporate Masters)?

Hmm as the Worlds Turns.... Tune back in tomorrow....Same Bat Time.....Same Bat Channel!

"The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any bands of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States." – Noah Webster,

What many people cease to realize is that gun control will lead to confiscation and when that happens we will probably have another civil war on hands.

Anon,

Nationmaster is unreliable

Homicides per 100,000. US 4.8, Canada 1.6, UK 1.2, Germany 0.8, France 1,1, Australia 1.0, Spain 0.8

Industrialized countries with strong social safety nets have much lower murder rates than the US.

With universal healthcare, extended unemployment insurance with retraining, daycare support, and welfare for those who need it, there would be no need to address the gun issue.

Take despiration out of the equation, give everyone real opportunity to better themselves, and murder rates will fall below 2.0 per 100,000, without doing anything about guns.

oskar

Can you give me some regulations that result in fewer people became mental ill.?

This country has no higher percentage of mentally ill than other developed countries but we have approximately 1000 times as many gun deaths as those other countries. The difference is our ridiculously lax gun laws.

The only way a mentally ill person is denied permission to buy a firearm is if they have been judged to be mentally ill in a court of law. This represents a very, very small percentage of those who are actually mentally ill but it is the standard pushed by the NRA.

If people had to prove that they are mentally competent before they have permission to own a firearm, which is the standard in at least some other developed countries we might have a handle on the problem. Our current laws regarding mentally ill people and guns are almost completely useless.

How you dare call me boneheads, The debates that are so called “gun responsibility” is not about gun responsibility, is about gun restriction “ blame the gun”. You don't regulate responsability , you teach responsability and the goverment want to regulate.

The only people who say we are "blaming the gun" are gun advocates who fail to understand the proposed restrictions about guns only would restrict the kind of gun a PERSON can have, and what responsibilities a PERSON who owns a gun must abide by. If you shoot someone I do not blame the gun ..... I blame you.

Well ED-2874315 please allow me to repeat the facts once again.......

For 2011 Great Britain has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU and has been named the most Violent Country in the EU....In the UK there where 2,034 violent crimes per 100,000 people, which is way ahead of even South Africa's 1,609 violent crimes per 100,000 people.

In the United States we had 466 violent crimes per 100,000 people which is an almost a 5 to our 1 ratio of Higher Violent Crime in Great Britain than in the US.

Again I get my information from the "Reality Check Piers Morgan vs Alex Jones Truth About Gun Homicide Rates" by Ben Swan....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8UN1e3nx6o

Notice Ed is spewing about 4.8 People Killed in America vs 1.2 for Great Britain and ignores the fact the Great Britain has 2,034 Violent Crimes vs America's 466 per 100,000 of population!

Hey 4.8 to 466? Once again the 1% percent is all that is important and yet the 99% are not! Hmm it's funny how it always works out that way...Isn't it?

Enough said.......

Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it. ~Thomas Paine

I have to ask a basic question;

"Would any of the proposed changes made any difference in any of the recent school mass shootings?"

If not, then the proposed changes are nothing but 'political rhetoric', not about actually making our schools safer.

It is funny to read you people talking about how the Constitution "Guarantees" certain rights. It does no such thing. We are BORN with these rights, the freedom to practice my Religion, Speak my mind, and defend ourselves from fellow citizens and our government if it comes to that.

The Constitution is for the Government, and it sets the limits to which the Government may infringe upon our right to speak, practice our religion, be secure in our person and papers, and the 2nd amendment says the government may not infringe upon our right to keep and bear arms.

And for you idiots still trying to offer the "Militia" argument, go read Keller v DC. And the Chicago Lawsuit from the SCOTUS.

So to require a test, or any measure, (such as showing a picture ID to vote, at least according to you Liberals) is an infringement upon that right.

Gun Control is not about safety, just like The ACA is not about health care. It is government control, and you people fell for it. We keep plunging headlong towards this UTOPIA you people dream about, and it won't be long before you realize, "This is not what we wanted", but it is exactly what you asked for.

If you want to stop or minimize these spree shootings, change the culture. Not gun owner requirements.

In 1920, a person could order and have delivered through the USPS a fully automatic machine gun with high capacity magazines. Just exactly how many spree shootings took place in the 20's?

People are being manipulated by the medias, whether it is intentional or not I cannot say, but it is a fact that there is thousands of cases of self-defense with guns, every year, cases where lives have been saved, including the lives of children, but since people never hear of these cases, and only hear about the victims of murders, they assume these cases are a rarity. If you worked with lawyers you would know, you would also know how many unarmed people have been murdered.

How about instead of quoting the Founders and know "pro-gun" presidents, we quote people the "banners" worship and what the courts have ALREADY SAID about their "gun control"???

"By calling attention to ‘a well regulated militia,’ ‘the security of the nation,’ and The RIGHT OF EACH CITIZEN ‘to keep and bear arms,’ our founding fathers recognized the essentially civilian nature of our economy... The Second Amendment STILL remains an important declaration of our basic civilian-military relationships in which EVERY CITIZEN MUST BE READY TO PARTICIPATE IN THE DEFENSE OF HIS COUNTRY. For that reason I believe the Second Amendment will ALWAYS be important." -- John F. Kennedy

"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms ... THE RIGHT OF THE CITIZENS TO BEAR ARMS IS JUST ONE GUARANTEE AGAINST ARBITRARY GOVERNMENT, one more safeguard, against the tyranny which now appears remote in America BUT WHICH HISTORICALLY HAS PROVEN TO BE ALWAYS POSSIBLE." -- Hubert H. Humphrey Liberal Democratic Senator, 22 October 1959

"The right to bear arms is not granted by the Constitution; neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The second amendment means no more than that it shall not be infringed by Congress, and has no other effect than to restrict the powers of the national government." -- The Supreme Court of the United States, in U.S. v. Cruikshank 1876

"It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right." -- conclusion from The Supreme Court of the United States, in DC v Heller, 2008

ALSO... If Executive Orders have the same "weight" as law, we ALL MUST consider the following; (Let the reader and the current ACTING President PAY SPECIAL ATTENTION TO THE FINAL THREE PARAGRAPHS):

Unconstitutional Official Acts

16 Am Jur 2d, Sec 177 late 2d, Sec 256:
The general misconception is that any statute passed by legislators bearing the appearance of law constitutes the law of the land. The U.S. Constitution is the supreme law of the land, and any statute, to be valid, must be In agreement. It is impossible for both the Constitution and a law violating it to be valid; one must prevail. This is succinctly stated as follows:

The General rule is that an unconstitutional statute, though having the form and name of law is in reality no law, but is wholly void, and ineffective for any purpose; since unconstitutionality dates from the time of it's enactment and not merely from the date of the decision so branding it. An unconstitutional law, in legal contemplation, is as inoperative as if it had never been passed. Such a statute leaves the question that it purports to settle just as it would be had the statute not been enacted.

SINCE AN UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAW IS VOID, THE GENERAL PRINCIPLES FOLLOW THAT IT IMPOSES NO DUTIES, CONFERS NO RIGHTS, CREATES NO OFFICE, BESTOWS NO POWER OR AUTHORITY ON ANYONE, AFFORDS NO PROTECTION, AND JUSTIFIES NO ACTS PERFORMED UNDER IT....

A void act cannot be legally consistent with a valid one. An unconstitutional law cannot operate to supersede any existing valid law. Indeed, insofar as a statute runs counter to the fundamental law of the lend, it is superseded thereby.

NO ONE IS BOUND TO OBEY AN UNCONSTITUTIONAL LAW AND NO COURTS ARE BOUND TO ENFORCE IT.

Jon Roland: Strictly speaking, an unconstitutional statute is not a "law", and should not be called a "law", even if it is sustained by a court, for a finding that a statute or other official act is constitutional does not make it so, or confer any authority to anyone to enforce it.

ALL CITIZENS AND LEGAL RESIDENTS OF THE UNITED STATES, BY THEIR PRESENCE ON THE TERRITORY OF THE UNITED STATES, ARE SUBJECT TO THE MILITIA DUTY, THE DUTY OF THE SOCIAL COMPACT THAT CREATES THE SOCIETY, WHICH REQUIRES THAT EACH , ALONE AND IN CONCERT WITH OTHERS, NOT ONLY OBEY THE CONSTITUTION AND CONSTITUTIONAL OFFICIAL ACTS, BUT HELP ENFORCE THEM, IF NECESSARY, AT THE RISK OF ONE'S LIFE.

ANY UNCONSTITUTIONAL ACT OF AN OFFICIAL WILL AT LEAST BE A VIOLATION OF THE OATH OF THAT OFFICIAL TO EXECUTE THE DUTIES OF HIS OFFICE, AND THEREFORE GROUNDS FOR HIS REMOVAL FROM OFFICE. NO OFFICIAL IMMUNITY OR PRIVILEGES OF RANK OR POSITION SURVIVE THE COMMISSION OF UNLAWFUL ACTS. IF IT VIOLATES THE RIGHTS OF INDIVIDUALS, IT IS ALSO LIKELY TO BE A CRIME, AND THE MILITIA DUTY OBLIGATES ANYONE AWARE OF SUCH A VIOLATION TO INVESTIGATE IT, GATHER EVIDENCE FOR A PROSECUTION, MAKE AN ARREST, AND IF NECESSARY, SEEK AN INDICTMENT FROM A GRAND JURY, AND IF ONE IS OBTAINED, PROSECUTE THE OFFENDER IN A COURT OF LAW.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EVERYONE who understands the Second Amendment NEEDS to MUST get off of this board and CALL THEIR REPRESENTATIVES AND SENATORS and let them know where you stand. If Feinstein gets everything she wants, 80% of ALL guns currently out there will be CONFISCATED. And when you DO call them, keep the above in mind.

If a DRUNKARD get behind the STEERING WHEEL of a CAR and kills someone, we blame the DRUNKARD.
If a LUNATIC/CRIMINAL gets behind the TRIGGER of a GUN and kills someone, we blame the GUN?!? WTF!

Lets all get something straight about the Second Amendment and gun ownership shall we:
1. The 2nd Amendment GUARANTEES that the Right to possesses firearms for a US citizen--it DOES NOT say if Washington or the UN allow it, it is an absolute Right and is an integral part of the Rights that are guaranteed in the US to all citizens.

2. Adams, Jefferson, Washington, etc. were no fools (like the clowns we have running things at the moment), they positively understood that firearms are the ONLY defense a US citizen has against the tyranny of the government.

3. The right you currently enjoy, i.e., to disagree with me is ONLY due to the Rights you have under OUR 1st Amendment--free speech. Which in turn is dependent upon the 2nd Amendment (to prevent some moron with a shiney suit and $500 shoes from making a proclamation--just like a real Roman Emperor--except now it's called a "presidential [sic] order" as if that gives it some legal authority which it DOES NOT have.

So, what actually is negotiable about the freedom to keep and bear arms, simple. Nothing.
Can you change it... you can try, but I would not recommend it.

It looks like the old drunk Uncle named Joe was making a threaing gesture with his pop gun finger much like that boy that was suspended from school. The idea that Obama is inclusive is a laugh a minute. He knows if he blows off the NRA and gun holders rights there will be an ill wind that blows across this land from Alaska to Maine. Obama's goal is to disarm law abiding citizens so only the government has ways of enforcing his dictatoral decrees. While the is a need to make sure that criminals and mentally troubled do not get CW or be able to buy arms. Our founding fathers saw a need to have an armed citizenary to keep the government honest and maybe keep them a little fearul. In the words of Thomas Jefferson--when the goverment is fearful of the people then we have freedom. Let freedom ring throughout land.

For all you wannabes that see NRA boogeyman around the corner, you should bear in mind that most gun ownwers are not members of the NRA but are avid protectors of the Bill of Rights. We will protect the Republic even if it is against domestic adversaries. The oath that all military takes is to preserve, protect and defend th Constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic, so help you God. It says nothing about the POTUS or the Congress. We are not your servants nor are you lords and we be your serfs. Let freedom ring across this land.

It appears that a significant portion of NRA membership and leadership are armed and dangerous bullies. They sure as hell don't like it when Americas gaze focuses upon them. If they want to regain any credibility and the respect of normal unarmed folk, they had better clean up their act.

I respect the 2nd amendment as much as the most die hard gun-nut, but perhaps for different reason than is usually expressed. The first and second amendment are a matched pair. They are the pen and the sword of our constitution. However at some point in our recent history the defensive nature of that amendment has been corrupted.

I don't believe that first and second amendments were ever intended as instruments of intimidation which is essentially what the NRA tries to pull every time a legislator tries to install a governor on our run away civilian arms race. The NRA and its membership should be the first to seek reasonable and effective controls not the last.

If you come from Chicago (aka post #1) you aren't educated on the subject enough to speak intelligently about it. For starters the pariah of the state with the most restrictive laws in the country on guns and yet the gun crimes by your gangstas is sky high.. hmmmm. Now your lefty mayor wants to drag the entire state in that direction claiming the rest of the state is causing all of your cities problems. C'mon seriously you people buy into this drivel. Gun laws are for law abiding citizens and those aren't the people who are the problem. Gun laws are strictly about controlling people and for some reason you lefties want all the control until it is somebody controlling you. Red noodle from Chicago please go use your powers towards legalizing your precious weed or something because you haven't a clue about legal law abiding gun ownership and trying to mix that with rational laws. We already have them and then some in this state and when it comes to trash in your neck of the woods it just doesn't appear to do any good. In the meantime if someone wants to hunt deer with an AK or an AR they certainly should be able to do so.... And why not after all it is because this is America not in spite of it is America. Focus on the the dingbats not too unlike yourself that shouldn't own a gun, that could be the issue here.

The NRA can go screw itself. It doesn't care about the general public or safety, all it cares about is letting people carry around dangerous weapons. Guns are designed solely to kill: There is no other use for them. And the Second Amendment says that the right to bear arms is protected for an armed militia, not for some crazy redneck living in Texas to have an arsenal.

In Virginia, the gun laws are so lax that a mentally insane person can walk into any gun show and buy an assault weapon and walk out with it the same day with no background check. All ya need is the cash.

But, the NRA commandant, Wayne LaPierre, is from Roanoke, Virginina, so that probably explains it.

Hey, LaPierre, if you don't mind, there are several million Americans who would like to change that.

Silverton: You keep posting this, but you NEVER cite any source. I do believe you may be making this up. ALL retail sales of firearms REQUIRE the NCIS background check. And even the private sellers at guns shows request and exchange reasonable ID and such from their buyers.

---------------------------

Cpt. Porkchop: Thank you for the laugh! You used the most ignorant oxymoron possible in your post:

dangerous weapons

Can you please show me some weapons that are NOT "dangerous"? {D'oh!}

---------------------------

"It is impossible to make people understand their ignorance; for it requires knowledge to perceive it, and therefore he that can perceive it, hath it not." -- Jeremy Taylor, English prelate (1613 - 1667)

"What luck for rulers that men do not logically think." -- Adolf Hitler

"As long as people believe in absurdities, they will continue to commit atrocities" -- Voltaire

"Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves" - William Pitt

"Certainly one of the chief guarantees of freedom under any government, no matter how popular and respected, is the right of citizens to keep and bear arms ... THE RIGHT OF THE CITIZENS TO BEAR ARMS IS JUST ONE GUARANTEE AGAINST ARBITRARY GOVERNMENT, one more safeguard, against the tyranny which now appears remote in America BUT WHICH HISTORICALLY HAS PROVEN TO BE ALWAYS POSSIBLE." -- Hubert H. Humphrey Liberal Democratic Senator, 22 October 1959

"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws." -- Edward Abbey father of environmental movement in"Abbey's Road", 1979

“Every Communist must grasp the truth, 'Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.’” -- Mao Tse-tung, 1938, inadvertently endorsing the Second Amendment

Here is where a lot of the ignorance for "gun control" is so silly. The majority of you gun carrying, second amendment shouting, wannabe patriots get your information wrong. Obama doesn't want your guns. Obama doesn't want to do away with the Second Amendment. As long as you are a RESPONSIBLE and LEGAL gun owner, you have nothing to worry about. We had this same bull crap back in '08 when the NRA tried to scare Americans by saying the same thing. What happen, gun sales went through the roof and guess what??? You still have your guns and the second amendment is still part of the constitution. So here's something for you folks to think about:

Most NORMAL people that have a license to carry a firearm, primarily have it for protection. Most usually have either a shotgun or pistol/gloc or something of that nature. Those I like to call "extreme" are the ones with the assault rifles and military style guns. Whether you have it for protection or recreation is fine and nobody cares if you own them. The problem lies when your sole purpose is to use it so you can "shoot" someone. Those are the ones we need to worry about. Let's be real for a second, Who really needs an assault rifle or fully automatic type gun for protection? That's not what they are made for and Ya'll know it.

HOWEVER, It sounds to me that you are perfectly ok with the NRA going over to congress and "donating" millions of dollars to certain members of Congress in an effort to "protect" their bottom line. It's amazing to me that most of you don't see what the NRA (or conveniently turn a blind eye) when they come out and make these "wild" accusations, What happens to gun sales, they skyrocket. Same thing with the Newtown violence, what happen? They used it to their advantage and AGAIN gun sales skyrocket, BUT those of you that are for the rights of people to bear arms are ok with them using "scare tactics" and using the people "we elect" to serve us as their pawns in order to achieve their objective while we continue to scream for "gun rights" and "Don't let Obama take our guns away from us!"

All I can say is wake up, look at the big picture and have some kind of understanding that we need to modify the current laws to make it harder for criminals and others that want to do harm to others to own or purchase a gun legally in this country. Once you understand that then you will see that nobody wants the gun you currently owns UNLESS you are a criminal or convicted felon OR intend to go to a populated place with your firearm and pretend you are at the OK Corral!

Excuse me but my first link up there that I took the rates per 100,000 from is The Guardian, a well known British newpaper for years now, one that I used to enjoy reading when I lived there and I can tell you that you are both very wrong and that my stats are from a well known British source. You know, United Kingdom of Great Britain, UKGB. Again...

Note correct rate on stable comparative population number of 100,000! UK homicides by firearms PER 100,000 population, UKGB = 0.07, USA = 2.97. This equates to number of deaths by firearm in the year UKGB = England and Wales = 41, USA = 9,146.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2012/jul/22/gun-homicides-ownership-world-list

J-man, there has been more than three murders since 1932 committed with " Assault rifles".

Amen----Common Sense..And I definitely believe in the right for people to won "Assault rifles" .....As long as they don't believe there is a secret plot to take them away...Because if you believe that and make comments on the internet that you " Are waiting for orders " to execute the war to protect the second ammendment " Because the NRA said they are coming "...........Then " They " need to come take " Your " fire arms LOL

Spiddass---It is possible for a private individual to buy a gun at a "Gun show " or their home or driveway in most areas without any I.D. or documentation beyond a bill of sale for the seller's protection....But even the bill of sale is not required in a lot of locales....

"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government, lest it come to dominate our lives and interests."--Patrick Henry---1736-1799 ---- "The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first."-- Thomas Jefferson -

Executive order huh? Sorry Mr. Obama, Mr. Biden, I refuse to obey the "orders" of a dictator.

If you must insist on attempting to take my rights away, do it legally, through the Congress of The United States of America.

I can't believe that our country has come to this, after all the blood that has been shed to protect our rights.

WHY WHY WHY are we no addressing the REAL issue at hand instead of trying to limit who can won what and what can be bought ? The common denominator ins ALL of these mass shootings in insanity yet we have not heard a peep out of the white house about mental illness. We can spend millions and ,illions of dollars policing weapons. Heck we can ban BB gun's and slingshots but the fact is is a loony peson wishes to have one of these he/she will find a way to get it. A crazy person can act sain in public to get what they need to carry out these things so how will a back ground check solve that problem ? At one point I would have agreed that we really didn't need extended clips or some automatic weapons. After Governor Cuomo's comment about confiscating weapons I firmly believe we do in fact need them. This is the very reason the 4th ammendment was put in the constitution. So the people could protect themselves from the government.

It seem many want a liberal lifestyle in ths country but with the ablity to control. sort of cake and eat it too attitude. We are to accept freedom of race ,religion, womans rights and sexual preferance amoung other things but not accept peoples freedom to own a gun. I don't won a weapon by the way but will not sit in fear of my neighbor owning 30 of them. He is free to own waht he chooses.

"In England where guns are banned:Violent crime ratio per 100,000 = 1,361. This is 3 and half times that of the US" ????? NO! wrong due to how "violent" crimes are listed and defined, there are problems in comparative due to these differences of accounts, definitions of what is violent crime, some are bodiless and to do with property not person, this is explained, see the graph link from wiki below.

The Guardian stats above are based on the United Nations Office of Drugs and Crime. http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/statistics/data.html

Where did you get this info above? link? Where did you get information that NationMaster is not credible or correct information? This explains how NationMaster works, it is good but like many other studies, limited to what it is examining on each page/topic. This is explained, for example where the information comes from, what it is based on. Is it limited to info from the European Union only? Only listing EU countries?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k1inaDZo6lU

NationMaster Crime stats US v. UK

http://www.nationmaster.com/compare/United-Kingdom/United-States/Crime

" In the UK there where 2,034 violent crimes per 100,000 people" what??? not clear. Problem here is how crimes are defined, check out this chart. They include many small crimes or crimes that do not include bodily harm. See this graph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Violent-crime-rates-UK-1981-to-2007.png

In the statistics from the UK, incidents with no injury (such as spitting, shoving) are part of those 'violent' crime statistics. The US does not consider any incident with no injury a 'violent' crime, so they are not aggregated in the violent crime statistics. You are doing an apples to oranges comparison but FOX wouldn't tell you that would they.

I find it curious that the discussion focuses on statistics that imply they're worse than us. When you get punched, it is an inconvenience and you get better. When you're dead, you're dead.

Not one of the posters has commented on how to actually change society in a way that reduces homicides drastically, while at the same time leaves the 2nd ammendment alone. Is it because it will cost more? Universal healthcare is something that Jesus would be fully in favor of. Careing for the poor of society was a major theme throughout his life, also, in favor of welfare, unemployment insurance and retraining. Read the Gospels again if you don't believe me. A lot of you conveniently forget this when paying more taxes is involved. Contrary to whar Gordon Gekko said, greed is not good. Income inequality drives crime. The unemployed poor and the working poor are despirate. Take despiration out of the equation and crime will be reduced.

Uhm, Who cares what the NRA thinks?

We're talking about a couple guns and a few certain clips spinning bullets "please", who needs a spinning bullet but the military.. No reason to get your panties in a not..Blame it on technology.

Gun control now. It's the right thing to do.

Gun control violates our Constitution, makes Ben Franklin roll in his grave, and makes Jesus cry.

Obama the Laraza Puppet,

Why doesn't the foundry outside of our town report the 5 illegals with the same name and same Social Security number? The greed of the small businesses and big businesses doesn't report these people so they can make a bigger profit and pay lower wages! You can't do background checks on things that aren't reported!

@brenda1964,

People who believe in the US Constitution do care about what the NRA has to say. Just because you hate or are afraid of guns does not make them evil.

If assault weapons get outlawed, I might have to report mine as stolen so that I can collect the insurance money. I will use that insurance money to buy ammo for the other calibers of guns that I own. All the while my weapons will be hidden in a safe place. See how gun control can turn honest people in to criminals. Yes, it should pain you that you are contributing to my stockpile of ammunition if you pay homeowners insurance for the company I have my policy through. Thanks a bunch dummy!

edster,

You sound like a fool! You obeyed the 20 executive orders that bush pushed through in his 8 years as the Worst President Ever!

trilca,

I looked on-line and checked several sources and found No Executive Orders being used by Obama yet? Could you please tell me what some of those 900 were that you claim and where to find them? I also have no problem with executive orders as long as they don't come from Chevez!

The government can read your computer screen from outer space and sail in the stratosphere with a drone and hellfire missile..I don't need one of them either..

Indigo-rage wrote:

"Gun control violates our constitution, makes Ben Franklin roll in his grave, and makes jesus cry."

Have you ever read the New Testament? Jesus was the turn the other cheek guy, the complete non-violence philisophy.

I think most of you people are forgetting a couple of things. First, we live in a free country. That means most of you people should mind your own business about what other people own or need. It is not your place to dictate to others what they are allowed to possess as long as its legal. Second, the NRA is one of the largest private membership organizations in the USA. Members are Americans with their opinions and the NRA represents them. No one is forcing membership. Third, A firearm is an inanimate object. If someone puts a firearm on a table, it will not jump off and shoot someone. It will stay there until someone moves it. With that said, a firearm, and all other objects (Cars- Knives- Explosives- Trains- Drugs) can be uses for good and bad purposes. The variable is the person handling them. Until we deal with the "persons" committing these bad acts, this problem will not be solved. This GUN-Control Rally cry lately is a side show, smoke and mirrors, to a larger problem the politicians are trying to solve in this country. TOO Much Freedom.....I'm afraid the President might overstep his power this time and that might mean trouble for all.

P.S. Child school safety appears to be a lower priority to most liberals than getting guns banned. Listen to them all say "We don't need security in our schools, that;s going overboard, we need guns off the street.".... REALLY!

"I also can't think of a better way to honor those lost, than finally getting something done in their memory..."

Wow, this is how dumb we are, passing a law and pretending it somehow could have stopped this action is a good way to honor somebody?

Joe himself said it, He doesn't think any law they are talking about passing would have stopped this from happening.

So instead of protecting the citizens it is using the tragedy as a way to pass a political agenda, which is the exact opposite of honoring those children and adults. But hey sleep better tonight believing they are working on a way to keep our school children safer.

Clwyd - So far 139 executive orders (not the most)

http://www.factcheck.org/2012/09/obamas-executive-orders/

I see the same participatory facists from Chicago with red hair, girls from Alaska and elsewhere are running their mouths off again, as usual, lauding the continual assault by the present adminstration to water down or negate the Constitutional rights of this nation. What did people really expect from Biden? He and his handler in the White House operate from the same book of rules as Hugo Chavez and Mao except they are not as brutal YET. This is nothing more than another left-wing circus worthy of what came out of the Kremlin during the cold war. It doesn't really matter what comes out of Bidens committee or the White House. The fact of the matter is that there are 300 million firearms in this country controlled by 100 million legal, non-criminal gun owners. Do some of you friggin fools actually believe that during the last gun ban people registered their weapons or reported what kind of magazines they had. If you do - you need to get a brain transplant. Do you remember what happened to the Democratic Party during the mid-term elections AFTER they initiated the Clinton Gun Ban? Have you stopped to think what might happen if even half of the 100 million gun owners get really pissed off and say no. Probably not - you're too busy spouting nonsense over your lattes and living in the la la land of liberal duplicity.

JBW - your post is way to rational for this thread.

You hit the nail on the head - "TOO Much Freedom."

That is what lots of people feel (and they don't even know), OTHERS have too much freedom.

They want to take Other peoples freedom away, they want to choose how you behave.

JP - Has a more accurate statement ever been typed on this site?

"la la land of liberal duplicity."

Hey Feisty..... which of your rights are you willing to compromise?

Free speech? How about your "women's rights"? Are they up for compromise? I mean really, what is "reasonable"? do you really need abortion on-demand? Wouldn't it be "reasonable" to have a waiting period before aborting an unborn child? Maybe you should meet the child first before killing it?

Isn't that "reasonable"?

When the right is being taken from you, I'll bet your story changes about what is "reasonable"?

Steve. maybe a back ground check? Because if it is like somebody's third we should protect them from themselves.

How about back ground checks on cell phones, because if you ever got ticket or in a accident with one, maybe you shouldn't be able to get another one?

"We were disappointed with how little this meeting had to do with keeping our children safe and how much it had to do with an agenda to attack the Second Amendment," the NRA wrote in a statement after a closed-door meeting with administration officials and other gun groups. "While claiming that no policy proposals would be 'prejudged,' this Task Force spent most of its time on proposed restrictions on lawful firearms owners - honest, taxpaying, hardworking Americans."

Oh get F'ing bent you stupid NRA nutbags. We talk about expanding background checks and the NRA acts like we're coming to confiscate all personal firearms at gunpoint (ironically). Grow the hell up with your childish paranoid delusions.

The NRA has zero, let me repeat that, ZERO interest in doing anything meaningful to curb gun violence in this country. They couldn't give two @!$%#s when twenty 6-7 year olds get gunned down in cold blood.

They have one interest, and one interest only. That is, to SELL MORE GUNS. And apparently, nothing is more effective at accomplishing this goal than a mass shooting of children and the choreographed screaming of "they're coming to take your guns away," afterwards by the NRA @!$%#s.

What did people really expect from Biden? He and his handler in the White House operate from the same book of rules as Hugo Chavez and Mao except they are not as brutal YET.

Careful. I think your tinfoil hat might be wrapped too tightly...

MuW....So what your saying is that the Police and Military will break their oath to serve & protect the public to come after us?

No one is going to come door to door looking for guns......Your one of those nut jobs I was talking about. You really should get professional help for that paranoia. Your also one of those we worry about having guns in the first place.

If you bothered to read the second amendment you would see what is being put forward by the NRA is not true....but a scare tactic & fund raising effort. BTW the NRA was started with help from the Feds.....Land and 200,000 guns for it's members, for the purpose of arming & training a militia.....cause we didn't have a military at that time. As well the NRA was at one time never against gun control. Look at their history & charter. They are a far cry from what they stood for in the first place.

I am a gun owner and have no fear of the government taking my gun away. If they where going to do that it would have been done long ago, they certainly wouldn't have let it get this far.

JBW-328113

67% of NRA members think something should be done.....What does that say?

To all 2nd amendment whiners

Your trying to tell us that your rights outweigh the rights of those 20 silenced voices, and the thousands of others that have died due to gun violence.

do a reality check.

Steve: My reality check is the mother in Loganville, GA who heard someone coming into her house and took her two children upstairs and barracked themselves in a crawl space holding her .38 revolver just in case. The intruder found them and starting to approach them when the mother emptied all rounds into the intruder.

So you ask if my "rights" outweigh the rights of those 20 silenced voices? Their rights were silenced by a criminal BECAUSE "my rights" were silenced. Because the right to keep and bear arms was restricted at the school (and nobody in the school could HAVE a gun) we could argue THAT is the reason those 20 "silenced voices" are dead.

But if YOUR desire of banning guns HAD been in place there would be 3 MORE silenced voices when that mother and two children had been found dead. It was the gun that SAVED their lives.

So, do a reality check...........

csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/2013/0110/Mom-shoots-intruder-A-point-for-gun-rights-advocates-video

Steve - "Your trying to tell us that your rights outweigh the rights of those 20 silenced voices, and the thousands of others that have died due to gun violence."

Of course not, but their rights do not outweigh mine either.

Mr. Steve, you said "what is being put forward by the NRA is not true....but a scare tactic & fund raising effor"

I say what is being put forward by the administration isn't going to make schools one bit safer....but a scare tactic & fund raising effort"

(and guess what Joe Biden basically said the same thing minus the fund raising part.

One more thing Mr. Steve - "I am a gun owner and have no fear of the government taking my gun away."

If you don't take guns away how do you stop gun deaths?

Take despiration out of the equasion, give everyone real opportunity to better themselves, and murder rates will fall below 2.0 per 100,000, without doing anything about guns.

So drug dealers driving SUVs worth more than many homes, or wearing more gold than what is in Fort Knox are desperate? Those organized crime guys are all just poor Joe's trying to make a buck?

Are those the desperate ones you're talking of?

Gang members have every opportunity to better themselves....they just choose not to. It's far easier for those of that mindset to take what someone else already has than to go out and earn it.

Psst Steve-3564331 Wow you have no room to be talking about "Whiners" as it is obvious that you have NEVER taken the Oath of Office or are so senile or blinded by your own Corporate Rhetoric Disinformation & Propaganda the remember what your Oath was to....The Constitution of the United States not to Protect and Serve the Public (what ever that nonsense means)!

And just a "few" questions remain to be answered by you "Peace Officers"......

Full Disclosure: CO, WI, CT shootings.. Are These The Work of "Lone Wolf" Gun

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZPS7AdgNgE

So I can only assume you are once again Intentionally misleading the Vines Readership with your own twisted Anti Gun Agenda Damning US with your Faint but "Reasonable Compromise" praise regardless of what the Truth is.

America now is not the time to be "Reasonable" demand the Impeachment of Vice President Joseph Biden for failure to Uphold his Oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies both foreign and domestic......

Let US start with the Restitution of Our Democratic Republic by demanding the Wall Street Corporate Corrupted Politicians & "Peace" Offices uphold their Oath Of Office to OUR Constitution first, Restore All Of Our Rights (no more NDAA or Patriot Acts) and Infringe No More upon US!

“A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate.” –Thomas Jefferson

Argue,

If you want to go there, let's talk about the "war" on drugs.

It has not stopped the drugs, it has made them more valuable. Take the profit out of the drug trade and the gangs go out of business. Maybe not completely but after prohibition ended, violence slowed, the gangs were decimated and struggled to find new revenue streams. I'm not a drug user but those who are, will continue, illegal or not. That creates demand.

Solution: Legalise and tax drugs, just like alcohol. The downside implications of alcohol use far exceed those of marijuana as far as productivity and medical aspects are concerned. If tobacco were a product looking to be introduced today, it would be banned.

The difficulty is that hundreds of billions of dollars are going to police, coast guard, and private prisons, and they don't want to give that up. It has created an industry that would lose if the "war" on drugs was won. And so it will go on and on, draining Billions of our tax dollars that would be much better spent providing a basic standard of income for all Americans, removing the despiration from their lives that drives some to criminality.

With the reported frequency of use of pot, a tax on it along with saving the money wasted on fighting it could balance the budget.

This alone will reduce the national homicide rate.

Caesar Augustus-

Geeze Doc, instead of playing Counter Strike, perhaps you can tell me and the rest of us the the reasons for collapsible and bull-pup stocks (hint they dont go together). Your mall ninjaness would have been complete if you used the words hostile, operator and tactical in the same sentence

Hot damn Caesar...you caught my screw-up...very nice. Fact of the matter is that I've never played Counter Strike. The terms I'm more familiar with are M-1 Garand, M-14, M-16, M-203, M-72 LAW, M-1911, M-9. I did not learn about them from a video game. But you're correct, I just started typing. In fact I've never even fired a bull pup design and I've never fired an M-4...but I'll bet you have in your games. In fact, I'll bet you have a "toon" with your moniker name.

But tell me smartass, does the f'd-up configuration description invalidate my point that farmers, ranchers, hunters, sports shooters do not need high capacity magazines? That they do not need assault rifles? You will note I use the term NEED...not want. If you really do NEED to fire an assault rifle, enlist. The US Army will be happy to train you in the care and feeding of an M-16 or M-4 and they will provide you with some interesting and diverse targets to shoot.

Hello folks, how are you all this fine morning? To all the lemmings that would and will stand by while their civil liberties are taken away you can thank us later. You call people who speak truth to power paranoid. You say the government only wants common sense control of guns yet you go to the airports and allow the TSA to molest you. You allow the Patriot Act, FISA, NDAA, NDRP to get enacted and you don't even know what's in those liberty stripping laws. You allow your government to use armed spy drones in American skies! You’ve give the government the authority to surveill you through any number of Federal agencies, have your phone and computer tapped, bank, medical, and private records accessed. You have given the government the authority to arrest you without gaining access to an attorney or a trial (NDAA). This isn’t paranoia this is fact! What’s next sheeple, if the MSM reports there is a suppository bomber will you all line up to bend over at the airports or any public place. What about what is going on in Texas?

In San Antonio, Texas the Northside Independent School District is now experimenting with “locator” chips in student ID badges on two campuses, allowing administrators to track the whereabouts of 4,200 students with GPS-like precision. If you don’t believe me look it up!

Administrators say the chips make students safer and will help boost attendance records that are used to calculate badly needed state funding.

A student, Hernandez, has filed a law suit against Northside – the fourth-largest school district in Texas – argues that the ID rule violates her religious beliefs. Her family says the badge is a “mark of the beast” that goes against their religion. As a result of her refusal, the school is transferring her which will put an undue hardship on her and her family. This also sends a clear message to anyone who doesn't conform to this civil liberties violation.

But U.S. District Judge Orlando Garcia on Tuesday denied a request to stop her from being transferred, saying the badge requirement “has an incidental effect, if any, on (Hernandez’s) religious beliefs.”

It is starting folks, first a GPS chip in your ID then a RFID chip under your skin. I’m just waiting to hear the sheeple say, IT’S FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY. The sheeple will fall to their knees in support and call anybody a tinfoil paranoid schizophrenic who doesn’t allow this to happen to their child. Let’s see how the propaganda disinformation trolls spin this one!

Those that have the intestinal fortitude to see what is happening knows why it is so important that we not allow our government to tamper with our 2^nd Amendment rights. The evidence doesn’t get any clearer. To the cowardly sheeple, no one has the illusion that they would win a battle against the military, it’s not about winning or losing, it’s about self respect. I would rather die standing then serving on my knees. People should not fear their government, the government should fear the people!

You sheeple have the gall to call us Patriots fearful, who are the ones standing up for our rights and who are the ones handing over their civil liberties for a little perceived security?

When Benjamin Franklin left Independence Hall just after the second drafting he was approached by a woman on the street and she asked, what manner of government have you bequeathed us? And Franklin said a Republic Mam, if you can keep it. The responsibility of a country is not in the hands of a privileged few. We are strong and we are free from tyranny as long as each one of us remembers his or her duty as a citizen whether it is to report a pot hole at the top of your street or lies at a State of the Union Address or standing up for our Constitutional rights. Speak out ask those questions, demand that truth. Democracy is not a free ride but this is where we live and if we do our job this is where our children will live.

America used to be Land of the Free and Home of the Brave now we are Land of the Detained and Home of the Cowards! Wake up before you allow more of your civil liberties to be stolen! Give the government an inch and they will take a mile.

OBAMA The LaRaza Puppet

Why do Americans need assault weapons with high capacity magazines?????

Why doesn't OBAMA give 13,000,000 illegals a background check?

Why did Ronald Reagan grant Amnesty to illegals? In fact, why was a Republican President the only president in American History to grant amnesty to illegals? Cheap labor perhaps?

rradiko said:

Received this satirical email from my friend majoring in Law, in Eau Claire, Wisconsin:

"An arms race on the streets, is on the rise. It's rocket launchers now ...or haven't you heard? Buyback programs are netting some heavy personal munitions. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57561115-504083/l.a-gun-buyback-collects-2-rocket-launchers-75-assault-weapons/ The gun nuts must be keeping the more powerful weapons for themselves, for future use, you know, home-made bombs, C4, grenades, chemical weapons, biological agents, 50-cal BFG's, napalm throwers, RPG's, rapid-fire mortar guns. I'm sure they'll rationalize how they imagine the 2nd Amendment protects their right to bear surface-to-surface missiles, as well. So the perps arm themselves with Rambo machine guns and concussion grenades. So what will armed teachers counter that threat with? Will they trash entire school campuses in the ensuing chaos of a firefight and end up with friendly fire on all sides of the smoke, with screaming, and raging flames engulfing classrooms? And only a fool would bring a 50 cal. to a pony nuke fight. In that case ...who wins?"

I saw that article. The caveat to that was that the rocket launchers were turned in by two Vietnam veterans, had the insides removed which rendered them inoperable (they were basically big hollow metal tubes) and may have been illegally removed from their military unit at the time of their discharge. I believe the military is just glad to have them back, will crack down on such 'souvenir-taking' in future and won't press charges on those Vietnam vets.

That being said, however, your friend had a valid point. If you're constantly 'keeping up with the Joneses' in terms of weapon size, at what point does enough become enough?

TrustVerify

Hello folks, how are you all this fine morning? To all the lemmings that would and will stand by while their civil liberties are taken away you can thank us later. You call people who speak truth to power paranoid. You say the government only wants common sense control of guns yet you go to the airports and allow the TSA to molest you. You allow the Patriot Act

We allow? Your party invented the TSA! Your party invented the Patriot Act! You and your precious Unitary Executive (you remember GW right?) stomped all over the Constitution and now you have the nerve to claim you are rescuing it for us? ...seriously?

So you and your drinking buddies are going to grab your AK-47 knockoff and take on the United States military right? That's what you imply. We're just standing back like lemmings and your are going to play "Red Dawn" and take out an Infantry Company with your buddies...good luck with that! If you have excellent cover, I give you a life expectancy of 25 seconds after contact. They won't even slow down for you.

Fact of the matter is no guvmint agents and no guvmint cops are going to take your damn guns. I'm a gun owner and I won't allow that myself. So you are going to have to pick a fight with the US Army; right now they are simply not interested in you and your buddies.

Amanda-2017567

I believe the military is just glad to have them back, will crack down on such 'souvenir-taking' in future and won't press charges on those Vietnam vets.

I'm sure they won't press charges. As to cracking down on souvenir-taking? They've been cracking down ever since armies officially quit plundering as a method of payment. They will never stop it, and it's not a significant part of the problem anyway.

Hello Doc, what are you talking about, "my party". I'm a political atheist, I don't care what political religion one wants to attach themselves too. We have a one headed two party system serving their masters, the banksters/Federal Reserve and Wall Street.

In terms of the government not taking away more of our civil liberties, you are wrong my friend. I just gave you a brief list of some of the civil liberties that have been taken and it's because of the apathy, ignorance and cowardice of the sheeple that allow it.

TrustVerify: #1.280 - Spot on!

“Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society.” -- attributed to Aristotle

Trust verify,

You are not a political 'athiest'. You are clearly a libertarian. Own it.

MUW

America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves. ~Abraham Lincoln

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Attributed to Sinclair Lewis

TrustVerify,

Why do I get the feeling that although you slam the government continally and are probably the most paranoid poster in this forum, that you actually receive a government check every month?

Does that make you a "sheeple" too?

Doc, and it is your party that is continuing the madness and embracing it. Were as a few of us have been saying it was wrong from the beginning, not just when the "Other" party is doing it.

"We allow? Your party invented the TSA! Your party invented the Patriot Act! You and your precious Unitary Executive (you remember GW right?) stomped all over the Constitution"

Hello Silverton and Ed, you guys seem to be intelligent so why are you assuming that you know me or have the right to judge me? You guys are wrong on both counts.

The last bastion of the fearful is spreading false witness and lashing out at the messenger!

P.S. Silverton, what part of my 1.275 post that offends your delicate sensibilities is false?

TrustVerify

Hello Doc, what are you talking about, "my party". I'm a political atheist, I don't care what political religion one wants to attach themselves too. We have a one headed two party system serving their masters, the banksters/Federal Reserve and Wall Street.

In terms of the government not taking away more of our civil liberties, you are wrong my friend. I just gave you a brief list of some of the civil liberties that have been taken and it's because of the apathy, ignorance and cowardice of the sheeple that allow it.

Political atheist...and that means what? You don't believe in the existence of politics? That's clearly not the case. I won't argue with your description of the political parties. The truth is that money has always trumped ideology. Even the French and Russian revolutions changed nothing in the end. Money infiltrates all forms of politics and economics from communism to socialism to capitalism...money trumps all and controls all. The more we the people can be divided, the more influence gained by the monied interests...that is the only truth that matters. You can climb through the political minutiae until you go blind but in the end...it's a choice between lung cancer and liver cancer.

So pick your poison my friend. In the end you will be played or betrayed like everyone else.

Trustverify,

It is only because you express many libertarian ideals in your writings, that I conclude that you are a libertarian, card carrying or not.

Hello Ed, you know what they say when you ass u me! As they say, "Don't judge least ye be judged"!

I think it's ironic that people allow themselves to be categorized, generalized and pigeon holed when we are much more complex then that. I'm what you would say, liberal on some things and conservative on others. The beauty about being your own person is that you don't have to conform to the dictates of any religious or political "leaders" because you allowed and accepted someone to label you.

Tom - Plymouth-3672298

Doc, and it is your party that is continuing the madness and embracing it. Were as a few of us have been saying it was wrong from the beginning, not just when the "Other" party is doing it.

If you were saying it, you were saying it under your breath. Some of us yelled it at the time. Then my party (as you put it) is continuing the madness. It wasn't my party that refused to fund the closing of Gitmo (though we're blamed for not closing it). And no...I wasn't happy about the Patriot Act at the time and I'm not happy about it now. IMHO it is clearly a violation of the Constitution...especially warrant-less wiretaps, denying habeas corpus to American Citizens and bypassing even the FISA Court.

Here's the problem as I see it; in the name of National Security the Republican Administration placed Constitution killing laws in place. In the name of National Security the Democratic Administration is leaving those Constitution killing laws in place. What "We the People" truly need is a genuine, full blown Constitutional Convention.

Trustverify,

I don't lean that way, but I'm flattered. Or were you just being a d!ck.

OBAMA The LaRaza Puppet

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember it or overthrow it."

ABRAHAM LINCOLN, First Inaugural Address, Mar. 4, 1861

Is that what you are suggesting "Puppet"? Are you, right here and now inciting rebellion? Don't mince words...yes or no?

OBAMA The LaRaza Puppet

If you allow OBAMA to continue to add to the 13,000,000 illegals by letting him ignore the crimes they commit, then you, AMERICA, will one day find yourself living in a foreign country.

Unless President Obama literally grants amnesty to those illegals, he will never equal Ronald Reagan. Republican...heal thyself.

Wow Ed you are sensitive and must be young too. There is an old addage that states when you assume, it makes an ass out of you and me (ass u me).

Probably older than you. Assumptions are based on conjecture.

Conclusions are based on evidence, which you have provided.

One more time idiot NRA whiners:

I own a gun and as such the responsibility falls on me to make sure it doesn't fall into the wrong hands. I use a trigger lock and a gun safe. You should do the same. Again, 90% of all crimes committed with guns are stolen.

When machine guns where made illegal the NRA stood squarely behind that as well as other weapon control measures since the NFA (National Firearms Act) excluding the last 30 years.

You can not tell me that because what is on the table that you are going to loose your second amendment rights. No such thing has ever happened. Point to one example of how your second amendment rights where taken away by the reduction of and ban of military style weapons. You still have the right to bare arms, it's the type of arms your allowed to bare that is the debate.

My suggestion is you read up on the history of the NRA. Look at the NFA while your at it.

MUW You need serious help. Your on the edge of what is now a day being called an extremist, and just a hair shy of a terrorist. My guess is that yes the government has an eye on you, and rightfully so.

ProBusiness: My reality check is the mother in Loganville, GA who heard someone coming into her house and took her two children upstairs and barracked themselves in a crawl space holding her .38 revolver just in case. The intruder found them and starting to approach them when the mother emptied all rounds into the intruder.

So you ask if my "rights" outweigh the rights of those 20 silenced voices? Their rights were silenced by a criminal BECAUSE "my rights" were silenced. Because the right to keep and bear arms was restricted at the school (and nobody in the school could HAVE a gun) we could argue THAT is the reason those 20 "silenced voices" are dead.

But if YOUR desire of banning guns HAD been in place there would be 3 MORE silenced voices when that mother and two children had been found dead. It was the gun that SAVED their lives.

ProBusiness Your full of elephant dung. See my above statement.

"They couldn't give two @!$%#s when twenty 6-7 year olds get gunned down in cold blood."

If you and your cronies could be objective and lose some of your anti-gun insane bigotry, you'd admit that the NRA are the only ones thus far that have proposed anything even close to a solution, with an idea for financing it. You may disagree with their proposal, but you can't argue with the fact that they were first (what, 4 days?) and their solution would be the MOST EFFECTIVE in the SHORTEST PERIOD OF TIME.

Meantime, you "gun control" nuts are willing to leave the schools unprotected while you argue, rant, divide and demean over new legislation that will take who knows how long to write, ratify, enact, enforce and eventually, if ever, make ANY DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER to the safety of the innocent people you feign such concern over.

I read somewhere that there are about 20,000 laws governing firearms in this country, and the Sandy Hook, Aurora, and Gabby Giffords tragedies still happened. You think adding a half dozen more is going to matter? Do you remember the definition of insanity? Isn't it something like "doing the same thing and expecting a different result?"

So many of you "gun control" nuts keep claiming that "no one is coming for your guns," but you are either deluded, ignorant, poorly read or outright lying. There have been many calls for bans and confiscation by many of your brethren, just try reading posts on this forum and many others. Expand your horizons beyond the knee-jerk. Just because "you" aren't doesn't mean it hasn't been called for, and by enough people to cause concern.

By the same token, many of the "gun nuts" on these forums (including NRA members) have said time and again that they are FOR reasonable, and effective regulations. So here's an idea... bring forth some REASONABLE and EFFECTIVE new laws and get rid of the 20,000 current ineffective laws. I would think FEWER AND EFFECTIVE laws would be better than the glut of ineffective laws, so clean up the database so to speak. The ball is in your hands "gun control" nuts because you guys are the ones calling for the new restrictions.

infringe: to encroach upon in a way that violates law OR the rights of another,

to defeat or frustrate

ANYTHING that defeats, frustrates, hampers, endangers, restricts or in any way ENCROACHES upon the free (unencumbered) exercise of a right is an infringement, be it a limitation of amount or style, the requirement to register, or the outright ban and confiscation. Laws exist only because of the willingness of the people to obey them. Be thankful that the reasonable people of this country are willing to work with you guys. No one HAS to, you know.

The sound you keep hearing is your knee hitting your desk.

And let's not forget to see the correlation between these mass shootings virtually all taking place in gun free zones. If a criminal wants to create panic and widespread death it only makes sense they want to limit the likelihood of being confronted. So you go to schools. Easy targets.

Even James Holmes in Colorado drove past SEVERAL other movie theaters to go to that particular one that advertised itself as "gun free". Did James Holmes go there knowing the likelihood of being confronted was less? That only he can answer but it would certainly make sense. Why THAT theater? Why THAT time? Would only make sense that he could have a better chance of not being confronted and causing the most damage.

There are COUNTLESS cases where a crime was hindered or stopped BECAUSE a law-abiding person had a gun with them and confronted the criminals before they had a chance to cause injury to innocent people. There was an internet cafe in Florida recently AND just yesterday a mother with two young children shot an intruder in the process of attacking them in their homes.

So this argument of "we need to save innocent lives" is a false one. Saving innocent lives does not occur by taking or restricting guns from law-abiding citizens - it is by stopping criminal and violent behavior.

If I used the NRA logic, I should be able to own any type of weapon ever made, cause a ban on any of those weapons is a violation of my second amendment rights.

So everyone should have a Nuke...a missile launcher......GIVE ME A BREAK!

Here honey I packed your school lunch and your gun too.....Really

How do we tell the bad guys from the good? Maybe we should ask the bad guys to wear black hats.

I think the NRA has John Wayne syndrome.

Take a good hard look at your local and state laws and what it says about justifiable homicide. Then get back to me.

When I read what some of the more radical pro-gun posters has written, I get the impression that Sherriff Roscoe P. Coltrane was at the keyboard.

LOL Ed you got that right...Him or Yosemite Sam.

ProBusiness: Your example BTW was a piss poor one.

A young man came home late one evening, his father thought it was an intruder, shot and killed his own son.

So there is the other side of your example.

Hello Steve, the bottom line is that no matter what Obama does, the Supreme Court will be the final arbiter on how the 2nd Amendment is interpreted. Someone has got to reel that guy in with all his Executive Order pronouncements and such.

As the election has proven, the country is divided, out of the one third that voted half claim to be Republicans and about half claim to be Democrats.

We the people are divided and distracted while the government takes us further into debt. Next month the debt ceiling fight will commence and we will go from a 16.3 Trillion deficit to at least 17 trillion. We continue to print 85 billion dollars (40 billion QE3 and 45 billion Operation Twist III) a month to prop up the economy. Interest rates are at near zero until 2015 penalizing savers and benefiting the banksters. We are bailing out Europe and nobody is saying word one about it.

What we have here is a not failure to communicate but a bait and switch to distract the sheeple from our collapsing financial situation.

Trust,

Look I have a war on women in my left hand and spending in my right, I have horrible rich in my left spending in my right, I have gun control in my left and spending in my right. and on and on

TrustVerify

Hi....The spending is a function of both houses. For the last 2 years the Congress has been held by the Republican party. They are just as responsible for our debt, as the House is.

When the stimulus package was passed not one Republican or Democrate turned that money down They all took it and spent it.

So, the debt is something that took time to get into and will take some time to get out of.

We could get into a whole other debate here, but the form here is on the NRA and gun control.

OBAMA The LaRaza Puppet

Ol_Doc:

I, a third generation white American, wish I had half the resources illegal aliens from Mexico have in the United States.

Third generation? Sh!t, you're family is still the new kids on the block. When you get to 10 generations talk to me. All joking aside, if you as a "white American" don't have half the resources illegal aliens from Mexico have here in the US, it's your own damn fault.

Actually I was only joking a little. My family has been in this country since 1664. We were also immigrants and we did what immigrants do...survive, suffer, succeed and thrive. We have been soldiers, sailors, cops, crooks and West Texas Cattle Rustlers and you know what...we didn't blame anyone for our failures and we didn't praise anyone for our successes. If you are going to blame Mexicans for your failures, perhaps you simply don't have what it takes.

OBAMA The LaRaza Puppet

Ol_Doc

Unless President Obama literally grants amnesty to those illegals, he will never equal Ronald Reagan. Republican...heal thyself.

So you don't consider OBAMA's DEFERRED ACTION to deport millions of illegals "amnesty"....then let's call it DIPLOMATIC IMMUNITY.

No, I consider it DEFERRED ACTION ... you can google it: "define deferred" and "define action"...you will not find the word "amnesty" nor will you find the words "diplomatic immunity". Next try googling: "Reagan amnesty".

Ol Doc,

1664 is more than 10 generations.. My ancestor sailed aboard the Sea Venture, shipwreaked on Bermuda, built 2 smaller ships and made it to Virginia in 1610. He returned to England and came back 10 years later with his family and landed farther north.

OL_DOC notice the word need.... as you said. Do you need a larger television? Do you need a gas guzzling car? For that matter do you need food with flavor? Sure I could give you more relevant analogies but quite frankly you aren't worth my time because you are dead set in your ways. Next time you buy anything ask yourself if you need it or if you just want it then ask yourself if you would rather have your government and a few in the minority making that call for you because half a dozen turds screwed it up for you and another half dozen want to push their morality onto you whether you like it or not. This is America and @!$%# happens and always will. What happened was a tragedy for sure but it does not give you the right to take away, limit or otherwise put restrictions on my life or my rights. When will you idiots ever figure out your laws will not affect those with criminal intent, it simply doesn't get any simpler than that simpleton. Now go hold up your picket signs for your medical marijuana activists agenda and leave sanity and common sense to those who have it and that certainly isn't Biden and Obama.

Feisty your a real piece of work, Chicago blinded liberal if there ever was one. You realize of course the rest of the state thinks of your city as the garbage dump pariah of the state right? Your ideals are so brainwashed and backwards one would think you have never gotten outside the city to see that your way of thinking isn't the only way or necessarily the correct way. Maybe we don't want to continue paying your welfare to sit on your rear and be Obama's cheerleader all day either. Maybe we start looking at taking away some of your rights... any of them, or all of them. It's just a waste of good web space to even try and talk sense to you and a bigger waste for what you blog.

Ol Doc,

If you continue to ignore the fact that big and small businesses are hiring these illegals to maximize their profit and Greed you are blind. I've written on here before that we have a foundry near us that has 5 men with the same name and Social Security number and the foundry obviously knows it. Their greed and lust for wealth has them doing nothing. The laws are in place but businesses want green greed over the law! Blame them! They are covering up and giving them jobs.

Stop Funding , Read what I wrote! Your are a real piece of something!

hugh??? You must be confused which screen name you are writing under or smoking a blunt. That didn't even make sense.

Obama loves Obama,

I suppose you will also decide who is civilized and who is not? It seems like we are going backwards to the days of the Wild West with what some of you so called civilized people think! You are savages!

OBAMA Loves OBAMA

Ol_Doc:

DEFERRED ACTION is aiding and abetting foreign criminals.

You came up with a very strange definition; and a telling one.

What if during WW2, President Roosevelt said , I'm going to declared "DEFERRED ACTION" against the NAZIS in Europe until they have killed off all the Jews? Would that have been a "good thing"?

Why do you hate Mexicans? It appears that you equate the Mexican People with NAZIS. You don't see that you have a problem do you?

Stop Funding Illegals

OL_DOC notice the word need.... as you said. Do you need a larger television?