And it became less of a problem under Clinton when we had two years of surpluses that were diddled away on tax cuts and wars.

and it became more of a problem under Obama. Point being?

Listen... Obama ran on raising taxes on the rich (not sure how million and billionaire is 250K+, talk about bad math) but he also ran on controlling our spending (even bringing our debt down). We can pander on who made the debt but its now about the future.... what are we going to do about the future and the liberals dont have an answer. Oh and Republicans have their hands dirty too...

I wish Republicans would run on entitlement REFORM not on reducing benefits by a dollar value. LINK card for example.... my buddy is a Walmart manager and says they abuse that horribly. They are suppose to use it on food but the card allows you to take money out! And they spend it on booze and what not. He also noted how many drive up in Escalades but thats another story. LIBERALS: you do more damage to the poor by writing them a check than actual programs like free education and housing. Why do we give checks for housing? Shouldnt the goverment housing money go TO the landlord? Entitlement reform would reduce spending dramatically.

The national debt is everyone's problem, and you are ignoring the 800 pound gorilla when you talk about the deficit which is spending. Spending has increased at an exponential rate and saying it is a GOP problem vs. a Democrat problem is playing politics instead of dealing with the problem. My generation is the one who will be stuck paying for all the benefits that the generations received before us. It is not fair; or right. The amount of money that the Democrats will bring in over their little tax the rich scheme will run the government for less than a week; so please, explain to me how it is so critical that we get that extra revenue that we are willing to sacrifice the deal in order to get it. It's because Obama opened his big mouth after feeling good about the election and now he needs to win here too.

Dollar for dollar not talking about Defense spending either.

That is off the table

What a joke, How many people make over 450k who this legislation would affect? How much revenue would that really bring in? They'll come to a deal and the masses will take the beating once again. Back to square one, Lets jump and start over.

To the tea heads out there, we have a spending and revenue problem. That is a fact, and finally we are going to start getting the revenue back that was given away by the republicans.

And they spend it on booze and what not. He also noted how many drive up in Escalades but thats another story.

Wow. I've never shopped in a Walmart where you could actually see who drives into the parking lot & then be able to associate that driver with a Link card--must be the Walmart 7/11 in a tiny strip mall.

It's amazing how some focus on people abusing a benefit, like buying beer instead of milk. But the biggest abusers of entitlements are actually institutions and providers who commit fraud by trying to scam the govt out of billions and billions of dollars. While you worry about beer vs milk, the bank is ripping you off big time and the hospital is double-charging you and sending you for unnecessary tests to run up your insurance or medicare payoff.

But that's how Republicans want you to think. Don't blame their donors, blame the poor and old people for this big mess.

And one other point--even if the rates were raised on the wealthy, who believes that they'd pay any more (or less, actually) than they already do in taxes. They'd simply hire accountants who'd ensure that they not only pay NOTHING but that they get a REFUND.

Mr. B "W" two unfunded wars is costing this Nation Billions and Billions of tax payers dollars every year !

without in place spending cuts, there will be no deal, plain and simple.

The republican-tea heads keep proving that they don't understand basic math.

Democrats have now bailed to 450 thousand a year? Republicans should just hold firm at 1 million. They will get it from the looks of things. Apparently Democrats have forgotten they hold all the cards.

Oh, yeah, it's the Bush Admin's fault our debt went from $4 trillion to where it is now at over $17 trillion~! The spend-happy Obama administration's answer to everything is to spend & spend & spend. Fill one credit card up- no problem! Just get a new one to pay that debt off and spend more.

This is all happening under this administration's watch: The repugs aren't in office. They are not in power. Any other argument is simply making excuses for failure to perform, period, end of story.

Jayfos

And they spend it on booze and what not. He also noted how many drive up in Escalades but thats another story.

Ah! Reagonites appear again. It used to be just Cadillacs but now it is Escalades!

Keen

You make very good points. And I said that my buddy is the manager and is very aware of who is coming in and out of his store especially at midnight to do their shopping. THere are not many in the parking lot at that time. My point is, you give someone money they will use it on frivilous things (to keep a perceived image) rather than good for themselves. Its human nature and you know. I am big on mentoring, charity, and helping the unfortunate....but i never just write a check to a person(s) to help out. I make sure where that money is going.

Yes, you are correct, there is fraud even in our tax code and I want that desperately addressed as well. I am with you on that.

Pigotry, you define "rich" as the top 2% earners.

Take the sentence:

Obama wants to raise taxes on the "rich".

Now substitute the word "rich" with "black", "hispanic", "jews", "muslims", "fat", "ugly", "women".

It's called discrimination. You are such a hypocrite with your concept of EQUAL and FAIR.

You only want equality and fairness when it benefits you.

Job1,

How much money do you think the Obama tax plan will bring in new revenue? Compare that to a 1,000,000,000,000 deficit in this years budget that will add to the 16 trillion already there and tell me why it is even significant. I agree with the principle that spending and revenue both need to be adjusted, but this tax the rich scheme is a meaningless political move by the White House. It nothing but living the liberal dream of playing Robin Hood. It does very little to actual solve the deficit problem. A few Democrats have even admitted that this fact.

What's so hard?

Get rid of the $800 toilet seats and other ridiculous items, oh, and the $16 cinnamon rolls they bring in to the Congressional committee meetings. If there is ONE place on the planet where you can find abundant pork to cut out and save money it would have to be the government of the United States of America.

Damn,....talk about target-rich environment!!!!!!!!!!

Then raise the taxs on the upper incomes to equal my tax rates, remove the income cap on Soc. Sec., and it's Miller Time!!!! Oh yeah,.....then raise the top marginal tax rates to Eisenhower levels and call it a day.

Easy, cheesey, lemon peesey!!

Next problem.........

And J.S. I am sick of conservatives. For a million reasons. You and your representives caused this problem and now you stand in the way of fixing it. Go to your room and stay there until you learn to respect.

There is plenty of fat to trim GOPisextinct. But you didn't read the posts above yours.

How about deport all illegals and save yourself 100B a year?

Raising taxes generates 85B from people already paying 33% of all taxes collected.

The bottom 75% earners pay 110B a year which basically is enough to pay the illegal aliens to live here for free.

(not sure how million and billionaire is 250K+, talk about bad math)

No, you're confusing the issue. Millionaires and billionaires have a NET WORTH at those levels. We don't tax net worth, however, we tax income, and $250K+ give one a distinct leg up on getting to that millionaire/billionaire status as opposed to those making an average income.

More to the point, having the top tax bracket begin at $250,000 was genius on the part of Conservatives. Many of us can dream of one day having incomes at that level or at least understand that some folks at that level of income can have a good bit in common with us. The same isn't true of those with incomes of millions per YEAR. If I had a one time windfall of $50M I'd consider myself set for life. The REAL wealthy elites consider that chump change, since it'll barely buy a new Gulfstream private jet.

For that reason I fully favor creation of another tax bracket somewhere around $500,000/yr, and for that matter another that begins at 1 or 2 million. The war against progressivity in the tax code has been incredibly successful for Republicans and our budget bears the fiscal scars as a result.

There he goes again, giving away the farm.

Obama has all the cards, yet now we're up to $500K, giving chained CPI, and God knows what else.

Sure thing, Pig...

There's no deficit problem. yet...

It is a mathematical CERTAINTY that entitlement programs will go bust due to demographic changes.

It is a mathematical CERTAINTY that the ONLY reason we are able to sustain our debt service is the fact that interest rates are at historical lows.

We can argue whether they are being intentionally manipulated by the Federal Reserve for that purpose.

The day that China, and other investors in US Treasuries decide that the measly 2% or so they get from us is no longer worth the risk- and our cost of borrowing rises, you'll see the REAL FISCAL CLIFF.

Get it? Or is this concept beyond your comprehension?

It is a "spending" issue, not a "revenue" issue

No, it's a BALANCE issue...too much spending AND not enough revenue...which is why it will take a BALANCED solution to solve the problem.

One could eliminate the entire non-defense, discretionary portion of the budget and it STILL WON'T BALANCE. That alone puts the lie to your "not a revenue issue" talking point. Cutting spending by itself WON'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

This issue would have been taken care of 6 months ago if military spending were in the mix.

Personally, I'm for ending the tax breaks for those making over 250k and cutting military spending by a third.

JS in SD you are exactly right -- and the liberals just want to continue adding more debt for America's children.

djo_34:

Deport illegals? OK. I guess that'd be OK.

But I'll see your deportation and raise you one:

How about we deport all of the H1B Visa holders first? Those people take American jobs every day. Jobs as doctors, therapists, engineers, nurses, designers, etc....

http://townhall.com/columnists/phyllisschlafly/2012/03/20/h1b_visas_take_american_jobs

Are you worried that one of these Mexican immigrants are going to take your job picking lettuce? Do you work as a laborer out in a farm field? Or are you more likely to take a job in a technical field?

Put your attention on the LEGAL immigrant instead of the shiny object they dangle in front of your eyes to distract you.

Pigotry, you define "rich" as the top 2% earners.

Take the sentence:

Obama wants to raise taxes on the "rich".

Now substitute the word "rich" with "black", "hispanic", "jews", "muslims", "fat", "ugly", "women".

It's called discrimination. You are such a hypocrite with your concept of EQUAL and FAIR.

You only want equality and fairness when it benefits you.

Notice how Conservatives insist we live in a fair and just society in which discrimination has ceased to be a factor...except discrimination against the unfortunate wealthy elites, who somehow have managed to amass vast fortunes with the jackbooted heal of the powerful poor and downtrodden on their necks.

The term "defying logic" doesn't even come close to describing such a scenario.

KI, you are full of brown waste. The truth if you would tell it is the republicans are the borrow and spend people. Democrats pay for their spending.

Those who oppose assistance for the poor always have these apocryphal stories about rich people in Escalades and food stamps used to buy alcohol and cigarettes. Food stamps cannot be used to purchase alcohol or cigarettes. They cannot be used to buy non-food products, including little items like toilet paper. I always kind of figured toilet paper was a necessity, but the federal government does not agree.

None of the poor people I know drive an Escalade. A lot of them don't even have cars. They either bum a ride from someone or they use public transportation. I have occasionally loaned my car to someone for them to go grocery shopping, but it is definitely not an Escalade, although someone might be inclined to question why a food stamp recipient would be driving such a nice car.

Are there some people out there who abuse the system? I'm sure there must be some, just the same way I know that some doctors run medicare scams, charging medicare for tests and procedures that have never been performed.

What does this prove? That there are some crooks in the world? I guess we should just put all the doctors in jail or require them to work for free because some of their number commit medicare fraud? Perhaps we should also shut down all the banks because some of the banks committed investor fraud? How about we shut down all the oil companies since some oil companies have spilled oil in Alaska or in the Gulf?

Why is criminal behavior so much more offensive when practiced by the poor? The criminal behavior of the bankers and financiers doesn't seem to produce the same outrage. I guess it's acceptable to cheat if you steal enough money for good attorneys?

The vast majority of poor people who receive assistance have terrible trouble stretching the buying power of those food stamps over the allotted period. Most of them also rely on food banks to get through the month.

I have been a landlord with tenants who were on section 8 housing. Their rent checks always came directly to me. So I'm not sure which poor people are getting rent checks delivered into their hands.

On this the last day of 2012, I would like to take some time to personally thank the hard working members of Congress who have shown such dedication to their jobs and us as constituents. After having set a new record in legislation passed, and still making the time to show us how they feel about us, the common everyday people of the U.S.

Thanks DOUCHE-BAGS

How about we deport all of the H1B Visa holders first? Those people take American jobs every day. Jobs as doctors, therapists, engineers, nurses, designers, etc....

Are you worried that one of these Mexican immigrants are going to take your job picking lettuce? Do you work as a laborer out in a farm field? Or are you more likely to take a job in a technical field?

Gopisextinct: I would agree that cutting down on the number of H1B visa holders would be beneficial to our country right now. Graduates can't get a job because no one is willing to train them; they would rather hire someone with an H1B visas. And yes, holders of H1B visas are immediately offered food stamps, etc.

Second in regards to your mexican immigrant problem, we don't just fund the mexican immigrants when they pick lettuce. Chances are they bring their entire families and we end up paying for their schooling as well.

As for President Obama, he had ABSOLUTELY NO INTENTION of cutting spending. All of his so called surplus and recovery is based upon the fact that they are spending well beyond their means. The republicans knew this and this is an attempt by democrats to not take responsibility for their own actions but instead to push it off for another two years. That way Obama can always be remembered as a good President.

You democrats don't remember Carter, do you? It was what Republicans was left with when they elected Reagan. Yet most don't think of blaming Carter for his mess. In your eyes it was all Reagans fault?

You liberals have a short memory.

job picking lettuce really you are so out of touch! illegals are in every step of the building trades elec plumbing siding roofing concrete work etc. i know people that have had to get another job because of the cheap money general contractors can hire illegals. now mr obama cares nothing about the african americans in this country becouse a lot of the jobs illegals take away from us impact the black people in huge numbers but no onr wants to talk about that because they are on their high horse and not down in the trenches with us working folk. kick them out if they are not here legally!

And Jontho starts the name calling because he has a losing arguement. He seems to ignore/forget the 1.3 Trillion in extra spending per year under Obama.

Tax rates should go back to 2000 rates, spending across the board needs to be reduced by 10% and 99% of tax loop holes need to be closed --- deficit would come down significantly.

And there you have it....The Democrats refuse to cut spending. The Repubs have caved on taxes, but the Dems don't want to cut spending.

This is why you can't trust govt. It's amazing how the liberals on here whine about "balanced approach" when the Dems refuse to cut any spending.

Liberals, I've said 1000 times...It's a spending problem and Obama, Reid, and the Dems are 100% responsible because they won't cut spending. The taxes on the rich are a drop in the bucket to the spending going on.

How long will it take you liberals to understand it? "Tax the rich" is just pandering...it's not a solution. Do the math instead of listening to sound bites.

What happened to the "balanced approach" Obama promised ? Did he lie ??

Where are the details of his proposed spending cuts ? Can anyone provide the details ?? How about a link to an article DETAILING Obama's promised cuts ???

Or is this all just another smoke and mirrors powere play by the financial idiot-in-chief who seems hell-bent on wrecking the U.S. economy with NO BUDGETS, NO PLAN and NO CLUE how to create jobs ????

@Louie Bee

Ah! Reagonites appear again. It used to be just Cadillacs but now it is Escalades!

Uh, an Escolade is a Cadillac!

GOPisextinct,

My parents came to this country LEGALLY. They worked 5 jobs and never took a dime of government assistance and CONTRIBUTED to the system. I took advantage of the public school system which they contributed to and got a scholarship to college. I served my nation for 2 years and worked for the past 15 until I was able to start my own business. It's called ambition! Something that half the nation has forgotten about.

I don't want the illegal aliens' jobs. I want them GONE. Their would be plenty of jobs picking lettuce for the immigrants that come here LEGALLY if the illegal ones were gone.

I have no problem with LEGAL immigration. Sure there should be reform. But how about stopping illegal immigration and their drain on society.

I won't dispute your claims about Visas. But calling a 100B a year illegal immigration problem a shiny distraction is plain ignorant.

It is a tricky thing managing the economy. Cutting spending sounds great - until you realize that it means laying people off, and then those people immediately collect unemployment, and they no longer pay income taxes, and they no longer buy stuff, hurting our menufactures and causing a ripple effect of bad economic impact. Cutting spending is suppressive (the opposite of stimulus).

If we go over the cliff, there is no guarrantee that the revenue and spending cuts will actually lower the deficit. Instead, the economic hit could be so bad that we re-enter recession, lose revenue, have increased unemployment and foodstamp and welfare and crime-fighting costs, and end up borrowing more. There is no easy or obvious solution here.

Also: the article is poorly written. Increasing revenue to cover the cost of unemployment, etc., is deficit reduction (compared to not raising revenue and covering unemployment). What the Dems want to do is what worked from WW2 up until Reagan. We decreased the deficit for every president in that period (as %GDP) primarily because of revenue. In fact, we spent a lot more discretionary money back then, because we were landing people on the moon, fighting the Viet Nam war, and fighting the cold war. People who say we have a spending rather than a revenue problem are repeating what they are told without a factual basis. No industrialized country collects less revenue than us (%GDP).

The recovery is still fragile. An austerity budget will drive the economy into a Second Great Recession and will be counterproductive to debt/deficit reduction. (See Great Britain)

What happened to the "balanced approach" Obama promised ? Did he lie ??

Where are the details of his proposed spending cuts ? Can anyone provide the details ?? How about a link to an article DETAILING Obama's promised cuts ???

JImm1455434: OBAMA DID LIE. He had absolutely no plans for the economy. He catered to all the interest groups he could get during the debates. The moderators who ran the debates failed to question him on many talking points and just glanced over his responses. While at the same time putting pressure on Romney to come up with a plan. Anyone who watched the debates knew this.

We all knew democrats were stupid. Now we have to live with their stupidity for ANOTHER FOUR YEARS while they continue to put our children in debt.

Again, those who say "Obama spends too mcuh" needs to learn some facts. Obama does not determine the spending; the House does. That's why we have a fiscal cliff. Anyone who says "Obama spends too much" does not understand how our government works, does not understand history, and is too controlled by the conservative entertainment industry to have useful, coherent thoughts.

Democratic sources say they argue the new revenue generated by tax increases, especially if reduced from the Democrats' earlier targets, should be used to cover the costs of delaying the automatic spending cuts for two years and protecting the long-term jobless with extended benefits.

I'm a Dem and this is BS. Congress will delay this another year or two then come back at the end of that time and delay it again. They've known for over a ywear this day would come. No more delays, start tlo deal with the problem TODAY.

--------------------------------------------

Unhappy-1583758

We all knew rep;ublicons were stupid. We have to live with their stupidity for EIGHT YEARS while they continue to put our children in debt.

Unhappy, you are right. Two unfunded wars, massive deficit spending, a doubling of the nation's debt, an erosion of our personal libety. I certainly don't understand the thinking of the right wingers in this countr voted for george bush, not once but twicey. However, you have proven my point once again. Those of you who want to do nothing but call other people names ARE THE PROBLEM. You're just too stupid to realize it.

So, so funny! The Oblama slugs are going to have to pay more taxes. You clowns deserve what you get. Unfortunately, those of us who actually knew his record get the same thing you deserve.

The preacher rhetoric only works to get idiots to vote for him. When it comes to actually leading, he is the zero we thought.

Unhappily - if you want to reduce the debt on our children, then Obama's is the only approach that will work. Saying "he lied" is just a sign that you can repeat the lies of the conservative entertainment industry. Obama is trying to get more reveenue and hold spending down, the same recipe that worked in the 1990s and the period 1945 - 1980. That stuff works. That reduces debt for our kids.

The GOP is so beholded to the top 1%, and you in the conservative base are so misled, you think what Reagan did is the model. Reagan was the father of deficit spending! Reagan's whole prosperity was based on massive spending increases and borrowing. Reagan, and all conservatives since, have been total economic failures because they can only see the short term benefit of tax cuts, and ignore the long term benefits of fiscal responsibility. The right has adopted policies of failure, and its only success has been in fooling sheep into thinking dung is gold.

GOPExtinct and others. We have several labor problems. And its more complicated than foreign professionals.

It used to be that the major corporations (IBM, GE, etc...) hired thousands of inexperienced yet educated college graduates every year. They had great training programs to give them experience and turn them into valuable employees.

The major corporations can no longer afford such training programs. Small to Medium Business does not hire college grads without experience. So there is a shortage of educated and experienced people. The foreign professionals fill that void.

Young college grads struggle fo places to gain experience. The military is one of the few places that offers technical training and tremendous responsibility.

This will not resolve itself quickly.

The flip side is we have an overabundance of unskilled labor. Undocumented workers are no longer competing for landscaping jobs. Our lax enforcement has allowed them to move into the building trades and in light manufacturing - the former union jobs that built the middle class.

So getting rid of the foreigners that are relatively few - highly regulated - and actually necessary, while not controlling the flow of those with no special skill who compete directly with our middle class does not seem like a solid plan

Anybody who thinks the government debt is not a problem is short sighted at the least. Every debt, both public and private needs to be paid off as soon as possible and not allowed to just roll over year after year. I personally don't think the government should be allowed to borrow at all. If they can't cover a program's debt by revenue, then it should not be passed into law. All government debt needs to be an equal burden on all the citizens, not just the rich. The progressive model is unconstitutional because it is unequal in it's application. The tax base has to include everyone, not just the upper end. As for the representatives we send to Congress, there just doesn't seem to be an upper limit to what they will spend to get reelected. With their attitude about spending someone else's money, even if we developed a plan to cut spending below revenue, they wouldn't spend it on bringing down the debt. They would just find new programs to spend it on.

hjack - I want to pay more in taxes. And why the $250k level instead of $500k? Because it is better for our nation, and better for deficit reduction.

Something you guys don't understand - if the tax goes up on earned income of $250k and higher, it doesn't change for earned income of less than $250k. In other works, if you have earned income (over and above deductions) of $260,000, your annual tax increase is only 3% of (260000-250000) = less than a dollar a day. And to get an earned income of $250k, you've got to be getting a gross income of about $400,000.

So the whole GOP thing about changing the level from $250k to $500k is not about changing the impact from those who earn $250k gross to $500k gross. Don't be fooled.

unconventional - corporate profits are higher than ever. Corporations like IBM and others can still afford training programs. What has happened is that the corporate mindset today is "slash costs" by cutting wages and benefits. If you look at economic data from earlier this month, the $/sales that goes to wages has fallen dramatically. Corporations are doing anything they can to lower wages, including offshoring, union-busting, etc., in order to increase the management wages and bonuses and stock-hlder profits. The problem with that is that it has created a historic shift in wealth from the middle class to the top few. Remember, America has more money today, higher per capita production, than at any time in history. Our top 1% is wealthier than ever before, and wealthier than is good for us. You can't blame our problems on lack of money - our problems are excessive haording of money among the few.

noncoms - - "No industrialized country collects less revenue than us (%GDP)" you just made our point, it is a spending problem because our government collects the most taxes of any nation in the world.

Noncoms - You blame the spending on the house....Fine...Then why is Obama & the Dems refusing to pass spending cuts NOT Obama's fault?

The Republicans are finally trying to do what's right by cutting spending and Obama & the Dems are being OBSTRUCTIONISTS to doing what is right for America!!!!

Lets hear the spin on that one.

When interest rates start climbing... then the excrement will hit the proverbial fan

National Debt Interest Payments Dwarf Other Government Spending [CHART]

Taxpayers spend $220B per year paying off interest on the national debt

By DANIELLE KURTZLEBEN

November 19, 2012

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2012/11/19/how-the-nations-interest-spending-stacks-up

I took advantage of the public school system

Oh,......Socialist eh?

Scholarship to college. I served my nation for 2 year

Oh,.......on the public dole eh? I bet you got an entitlement attitude too!!

The GOP is so beholded to the top 1%, and you in the conservative base are so misled, you think what Reagan did is the model.

Noncoms: Actually there are more democrats in Congress who are among the top 1 or 2% than there are Republican. so I don't know where you get your information from. Probably another liberal talking point?

Unhappy, you are right. Two unfunded wars, massive deficit spending, a doubling of the nation's debt, an erosion of our personal libety. I certainly don't understand the thinking of the right wingers in this countr voted for george bush, not once but twicey. However, you have proven my point once again. Those of you who want to do nothing but call other people names ARE THE PROBLEM. You're just too stupid to realize it.

I'mwhitewolf: I would agree with you on the unfunded wars, but in the spirit of liberals, won't you agree with something like that? Afterall, isn't democrats who decide to fund every immigrant that comes into this country for free?

Second, your liberal talking point is starting to become outdated the more knowledge we have about the situation. Clinton postponed debt by taking money from Social Security and moving it to another area to pay off debt. That debt is now coming back later to haunt us, even now. Kind of what Obama is doing!

If you are talking about personal liberty and doubling of our nation's debt, did you not read the fact that everyone is now required to buy medical insurance. I don't recall any of us getting a choice on that. The fact that the country is becoming more violent and so Obama wants to put into play sticter gun laws? Don't recall getting a choice on that either?

You liberals can't see your own mistakes.

DADO,

Here's the reason we pay $220B a year on debt service:

http://zfacts.com/p/1195.html

Unhappy,

isn't democrats who decide to fund every immigrant that comes into this country for free?

What the heck are you talking about?

pigotry:

Sometimes I think you’re dim-witted on purpose. Reagan’s tax cuts were across the board. The problem has never been that Americans are being taxed too much, the problem has always been that the government spends too much.

BTW: Grover Noquist didn’t destroy America, Barrack Obama did.

This Political BS of taxing the wealthy, that the "middle class" is buying into, effects the US BUDGET for just over a week (8 days by most calculations).

The US has a SPENDING PROBLEM.

The Democrats refuse to address that.

You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity, by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.

When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work, because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation!

There is no cure for stupid America. You REAP what you SOW!

The Fiscal Cliff Illusion

Once you study the history of banking and finance; you will understand that the current US government consists mostly of self serving puppet lap dogs who kowtow to their international banker masters rather than serve the majority of citizens “We The People”. After financing both sides of every war since the conception of the United States, bastardizing commerce with their monetary system monopoly, benefiting only their greed and lust, the international banker cartel says we owe them a national debt. Now they figure they are entitled to take away benefits we worked for like slave laborers, to pay back FIAT money they created from nowhere by slight of hand mystical boga boo. The fiscal cliff is a crock, we owe them less than nothing. In realty those banksters owe us for centuries of illegal immoral unconstitutional monetary system monopolization by war profiteering bean counters; it's historical fact. For keeping our nation in perpetual utter moral default; it is they that are ethically bankrupt, we don't owe them, they owe us. It is time we follow our Constitution, Codes 18 USC § 242 and 42 USC § 1983 demanding a people's monetary system managed by our elected representatives based on the value of work and being humane rather than on corruption, usury and infinite greed.

Under Article 1 Section 8, assigning various powers to Congress, Clause 2 gives our Congress the authority to regulate commerce; impossible once they gave away the control of the monetary system to private international interests. In Clause 4 of this Section, Congress, elected officials, replaceable every two years, are to regulate the value of money, not a private for-profit banker cabal. On to Article 1, Section 9, clause 7: “No Money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of the Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published...” Under the criminal Federal Reserve, there is no public money, just public debt. Coincidentally on the day before the 9/11/01 attacks, Donald Rumsfeld said the Pentagon lost over a trillion dollars. Monetary system monopolizers and war profiteers are the same 'klan'; if not, wouldn't the bankers find out where that money went? The next Clause begins, “ No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States:”. Ben Bernanke, Federal Reserve Chairman is also on the board of the Bank for International Settlements, the national debt is a fleecing of slavery. The Federal Reserve is unconstitutional just like the First Bank charter to the Rothschilds. December 23, 1913 was not the first time we were sold out by our de facto lap dog government. Study Abe Lincoln and greenback interest free US dollars used to finance the Union Civil War effort. Study John F. Kennedy executive order 11110. For a short time, the US Treasury printed money independent of the bankster Reserve. Fair exchange of goods and services. We shall be free at last.

Arkius,

Every budget has income and expense. You can't separate them. You can't say our problem is only a spending problem. Overspending is only a problem because we don't have enough revenue to cover the spending. I'm not saying our only problem is a revenue problem either. They are both, in combination, a problem.

That said, Reagan's tax cuts, like W's tax cuts were weighted to the wealthy.

Obama's, on the other hand, are weighted to the middle class (FICA reduction, current <$250K proposed extension). There's a difference.

I'mwhitewolf: I would agree with you on the unfunded wars, but in the spirit of liberals, won't you agree with something like that? Afterall, isn't democrats who decide to fund every immigrant that comes into this country for free?

No, it's not. Any immigrant who comes to this country is funded by the person who sponsored them. When you sponsor anyone to come to the US, whether a family member, spouse, or adoptee, you are required to pledge to support them financially above the poverty level for 10 years. If they apply for and receive any government assistance, the government can garner your wages to recover anything paid to them.

Take the sentence:

Obama wants to raise taxes on the "rich".

Now substitute the word "rich" with "black", "hispanic", "jews", "muslims", "fat", "ugly", "women".

It's called discrimination. You are such a hypocrite with your concept of EQUAL and FAIR.

You only want equality and fairness when it benefits you.

A black, hispanic, jewish fat ugly woman can become rich. Discrimination laws, both legally and morally apply only to characteristics that are impossible to change. Your complaint is akin to a crusade for the rights of drivers because pedestrians have the right of way.

I am so sick of Obama and the rest of the liberal idiots pointing to the "tax cut for the rich" as the reason for the deficits. If you actually take the time to look at the numbers you will see that even using the Democrats own numbers, eliminating that tax cut will only account for a little less than 3% of the deficit and using some other tax revenue projections it may even be less than that. The idea that eliminating this tax cut for the rich is going to fix the deficit is a Democratic pipe dream fallacy.

That might be why this "liberal idiot" only exists in your imagination.

It's pretty amusing that a Republican would try to teach a liberal about numbers.

I could be wrong, but has any Republican representative actually suggested details on exactly what they will cut?

I remember Obama asking them for details, and all we heard was *crickets*.

So do we have details yet? Or are the Repugs still playing the Romney card of demanding cuts, but refusing to give one god damn detail about what they want cut?

And I am not talking about the keyboard Rambo's on this board who talk a big game about what "they" would cut... I am talking about their actual reps. Have the Repug reps put forth any proposal that outlines the details of what will specifically get cut?

I think this whole argument on spending vs revenue is a lot useless blather. The spending which the Republicans want to cut is money the government is giving to assist the disadvantaged, i.e. entitlements such as Social Security, Medicaid, unemployment aid and social support programs. This is money that is going into the hands of people who spend it. They use it to buy food, medicine, and consumables like gas, utilities, etc. Despite what the Republicans want everyone to think, the money spent on entitlements doesn't disappear from the economy. It is used by people to support the economy by creating demand for goods and services. Nobody is shoveling it down a mineshaft.

On the other hand the money which goes into the hands of the top 2% earners through tax concessions does not get pumped back into the economy. Oh, sure, it may be used in some cases to buy a yacht, or an expensive home, often made with materials from outside of our country. However, most of it goes into overseas investments, bonds, treasury bills or other financial instruments to earn interest. It does NOT create jobs. It is not used to strengthen the economy. It does not increase demand for goods and services. In fact even when it is considered a source of capital, if there is no demand for production that capital does not get used. It is essentially taken out of the economy.

So, the Republicans want to reduce the amount of money that the government pumps into the economy, i.e. spending on social programs, and protect the amount of money given to the wealthiest 2% so they can sock it away to create interest income. Thereby reducing the amount of money available to generate demand and increase jobs.

The Republican position on economic growth is entirely backward and absolutely wrong. They are insisting on an ideological policy which will, if taken to the ultimate extreme, drive the country into bankruptcy. Every time Mr. Boehner, or any conservative politician claims that having the wealthiest people pay higher taxes will kill jobs they are expelling pure unadulterated BS from both ends.

The only thing driving our capitalist system is demand. If the people don't have money to spend, there is no demand and consequently a weak economy. The wealthiest 2% do not create demand. They already have all the goods and services they need. Only the middle class create demand, they spend money to buy the goods and services they need. And, if the poor and unemployed are able to get assistance from the government through so-called entitlements, they too will create demand and generate a need for production.

The conservative attitude represented by the Republicans is a virtual roadblock to prosperity, they need to get a grip on reality and start tearing it down.

Looks like many of you on the left ignored something key in this....The "extra" money gained from raising the taxes won't be going towards the deficit....It will be going towards extending unemployment benefits....yep that's what they've wanted all along..This isn't about the deficit...And if you can't see that you are either blind or ignoring that fact...

From the article above:

GOP aides say they expect their party to likely defer its biggest fight over deficit reduction when the debt-ceiling debate takes center stage in the new year.

'Good Grief, Charlie Brown!'

The GOP plans to double-down on stupid.

First, the GOP spends America into a huge Recession, then they lower our rating over the Debt ceiling, now they want to do it all over again.

Figures the GOP and Wall street would want to get their grubby hands on Social Security. Social Security doesn't contribute to the deficit one bit.

At this rate, the GOP will be extinct after 2014.

The problem is jobs, jobs, jobs.

Get Americans working again, and the deficits will go down.

Republicans need to go back to night school to take economics and Math in the new year.

Salud

Funny how everybody that is against the private bankster monetary system monopoly and war profiteers who made Obama their lap dog mouthpiece are all labeled "liberal idiots". I've been banned from news vine many times and I don't want to loose my handle and start a new account right now or I would tell some of the commenters here what kind of greedy wasted sperm of humanity they have proven themselves to be.

Everybody talks about 'Compromise', but it seems that every politicians idea of compromise is "It's my way or the highway'.

We have a 2 part problem - Spending has skyrocketed, and tax revenues have tanked. The Debt Commission recommended that Federal spending be set at about 19% of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) and Tax Revenues be set at about 19%, which would create a balanced budget at some time in the near future.

Last year (2011), Spending was 23.9% of GDP, which amounted to $735 Billion of excess spending.

In 2011, Tax Revenues were 15.3% of GDP, which amounted to $558 Billion in fewer taxes.

If we're going to get to a healthy financial condition, we need to have both Spending cuts AND Tax Increases. I would suggest a Dollar of Spending Cuts in return for every Dollar of Tax Increases - then both sides will be 'Compromising' and the Deficit will go down twice as fast as spending cuts or tax increases alone..

Of course, having such dramatic spending cuts and tax increases taking effect immediately would create severe immediate shocks to the economy, so they should be phased in, but a schedule should be set so they don't just get forgotten when the immediate crisis is over.

Since the Democrats accuse the Republicans of 'protecting the rich' from tax increases, and the Republicans accuse the Democrats of 'spending us into oblivion', I would suggest that the Republicans be required to structure a plan to raise taxes, and the Democrats be required to structure a plan to cut spending. Then the Republicans would have to make the tough decisions on tax increases, and the Democrats will have to make the tough decisions on spending cuts.

Comments are welcomed.

America’s Deceptive Fiscal Cliff

The Financial War Against the Economy at Large

by MICHAEL HUDSON

Today’s economic warfare is not the kind waged a century ago between labor and its industrial employers. Finance has moved to capture the economy at large, industry and mining, public infrastructure (via privatization) and now even the educational system. (At over $1 trillion, U.S. student loan debt came to exceed credit-card debt in 2012.) The weapon in this financial warfare is no longer military force. The tactic is to load economies (governments, companies and families) with debt, siphon off their income as debt service and then foreclose when debtors lack the means to pay. Indebting government gives creditors a lever to pry away land, public infrastructure and other property in the public domain. Indebting companies enables creditors to seize employee pension savings. And Indebting labor means that it no longer is necessary to hire strikebreakers to attack union organizers and strikers.

Workers have become so deeply indebted on their home mortgages, credit cards and other bank debt that they fear to strike or even to complain about working conditions. Losing work means missing payments on their monthly bills, enabling banks to jack up interest rates to levels that used to be deemed usurious. So debt peonage and unemployment loom on top of the wage slavery that was the main focus of class warfare a century ago. And to cap matters, credit-card bank lobbyists have rewritten the bankruptcy laws to curtail debtor rights, and the referees appointed to adjudicate disputes brought by debtors and consumers are subject to veto from the banks and businesses that are mainly responsible for inflicting injury.

The aim of financial warfare is not merely to acquire land, natural resources and key infrastructure rents as in military warfare; it is to centralize creditor control over society. In contrast to the promise of democratic reform nurturing a middle class a century ago, we are witnessing a regression to a world of special privilege in which one must inherit wealth in order to avoid debt and job dependency…

http://www.counterpunch.org

Why is Congress and President continuing to add to the DEBT of AMERICA'S CHILDREN?

it is a spending problem because our government collects the most taxes of any nation in the world.

And we spend 14x more on our military than the top 5 world's armies combined. And most of them are our allies.

That incompetent Marxist fraud in the white house wants only tax increases, not anything remotely resembling spending reductions. After all, he needs the money to pay back his dullard and welfare dreg support base.

Just examine a few facets of this crappy legislation:

Tax increases for all, not just for those earning over 450k. (bet you ddn't realize that)

Endless unemployment which has morphed into just another form of welfare and discouraging any initiative towards finding a job.

Increasing the inheritance tax to 40%.

There's much more but people should look this up for themselves.

BTW. There's no spending cuts in the bill at all which in reality matters little because what they refer to as spending cuts is simply a small reduction in the amount of deficit spending, not actually spending cuts at all.

Going over this so-called fiscal cliff is would inject a bit of reality exposing the actual state of economic decay in the country. It is this legislation that is the illusion designed to entice the dullards and others that can't see past the ends of their noses to think all is well.

Get the illegals out of our country and Congress will save billions of dollars. The invaders are taking jobs while their spouses and children are soaking up free benefits such as education, food stamps, health care. The illegals do not all pick fruit....Obama's uncle is a manager of a liquor store.

Force our govt to use E-Verify so that thousands of stimulus jobs, such as the "Road Bill" are given to Americans, not illegals. Force the illegals to pay for the huge spike in crimes they have caused.

Just fixing illegal immigration will help with our debt but our public servants won't do their jobs and address this unlawful behavior.