One message from the first NRA news conference after Newtown: more guns as the solution (NRA's message).

.

Now the news conference is over - no questions were allowed in the end.

I am seriously worried about one thing: Our wonderful two-party system is truly in danger because of GOP failures after being taken over by the Tea Party extremists.

Yes, and that is why I say to my fellow Libs: Boehner may be a weak Speaker, but we need to be careful what we wish for. Cantor is far, far worse. Ryan is a nightmare. And there are even worse nightmares among those whose names aren't yet well known to us.

This really is a disgusting spectacle. How difficult is it to work towards a compromise? Grover Norquist holds the GOP hostage--and they allow it. He's a traitor to this country and everything it stands for.

The NRA couldn't take questions because they knew someone would ask where you can by a kevlar vest in a size 5T and they don't have that answer...yet.

Private corporations think they are in charge in America, not the political parties, not the elected leaders, not the public, not the children, not the grieving parents, not the worried teachers, not the first responders, no, the private sector business leaders will make the policies we all live (or die) by, and that's that (hey, oil companies got us to invade the middleeast, didn't they?) The gun manufactures will tell us what's legal (all of their products) and how we will respond to mass killings (by buying more of the same.)

After listening to Wayne Lapierre I'm convinced he needs to be committed to a mental hospital for further evaluation. What a nut.

The GOPTP party is owned by outside interest groups vs. constituents. We have always known this, but we now have confirmation. Norquist owns all the votes of GOPTP congressmen, and as confirmed by J. Scarborough, the NRA owns all the same said votes. It begs the question, who represents the average Joe GOP citizen? Apparently no one, and it certainly explains why people are leaving the party in droves.

Please sir, can I have more guns sir? Please sir!

As to the cliff, toss the GOP over the cliff and create a soft landing for the rest to land on.

A cop in every school sounds good. As long as its payed for from the profits that the gun industry takes in each year.....

If we truly cherish our kids more than our money or our celebrities, we must give them the greatest level of protection possible and the security that is only available with a properly trained — armed — good guy.

Money, celebrities...I think he even threw in sports stadiums...just as long as guns don't have to be included! It's clear the NRA cherishes guns above all else...even children.

Feisty,

I agree with the NRA press conference being a farce! So, everything is the fault of the media, video games, and the fact that while we can't hire enough teachers, we should be able to afford a police officer in every school?

So "bad guns can be stopped by good guns?"

Just what we need, an old western style shoot out in our schools. The NRA and republicans won't be happy till we are having gun fights in the streets daily.

Now Layton, that's just crazy. Haven't you heard, guns don't kill guns, people kill guns. Thank goodness the NRA is there to protect the rights of guns.

It looks like our regular MSNBC hosts are beginning their Holiday time off, which I would imagine will include Lawrence O'Donnell.

Did you all happen to watch his Rewrite segment last night when he read an Op Ed from the conservative judge demandng gun control legislation? It was stunning. And today's NRA press conference went down pretty much as Lawrence predicted it would. I wonder if we will be able to see his reaction to what we all witnessed this morning or if his time off has started.

Also, the NRA this morning went after politicians. I'd like to know how much money the NRA has contributed to these same politicians over the years for weak gun legislation?

Who the **** are they kidding?

In a shocking development, John Boehner’s Plan B, or Doomsday Plan, was defeated by his own party on Thursday night, leaving the nation on course to go over the fiscal cliff in about 10 days.

Stories were coming out on Friday about a dramatic meeting in the House basement on Thursday night and a Republican party too split to agree on tactic. So Plan B never made it to the floor for a vote.

Accounts indicate there was a yelling match at one point during the meeting and that a somber Boehner said a prayer. Boehner and House compatriot Eric Cantor issued statements saying it now was up to the Senate Democrats to find a solution by January 1.

Prior to the politically risky vote on Thursday night, Senate Democrats said they would oppose the bill, and President Barack Obama said he would veto it.

http://blog.constitutioncenter.org/2012/12/boehner%E2%80%99s-doomsday-plan-fizzles-out-fiscal-cliff-on-course/

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't Watch POX NEWS. It's over the cliff.

See???

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/A-pAOzGCIAMacUc.jpg

Everyday at that FAUX NEWS CHANNEL is Doomsday!!!

After what went down last night with Speaker Boehner, Luke Russert's biggest concern was Nancy Pelosi and her age a few weeks ago.

How about the lack of leadership with Boehner? Did he question that? No.

Just strumming along the old boys' club - she's too old (even though we in the old boys' club are incompetent and don't give a **** about we the people).

Ah, the priorities with the media these days. Go after one of the most competent speakers in our history - but here's the rub - she's a lady, so...her age comes into question.

I trust President Obama to handle this in the best way possible. Will we go over the cliff? That remains to be seen, but at least we have a rational, responsible leader in the White House.

Yep, the Plan B, originally sponsored by Nancy Pelosi, and pushed by Chuck Schumer was defeated Bev.

Everyone is critical of the GOP on this, but it does take two parties to negotiate, unfortunately, every time the Bampster says they are close, he moves the target! How can negotiations be taken with this tactic?

The Barry needs to go over the cliff to pay for his programs and entitlements! Where will be get the money to fund things without driving the bus over the edge? Now he, and his liberal media, can blame the GOP for his failures. And, the media will be out in full-force to back his logic.

The world didn't end today, but the American economy just died.

Since the election the republicans in my office are STILL bitter and angry, particularly seeing their guys Brown and Romney both lose. They barely talk to us democrats.

And now we have to go through it again. The good news is the special election will be next summer, and not in the dead of winter as what happened when Brown ran.

The bitterness will be strung out another 6 months.

Brown lost by a lot in November. There's a good chance it will happen again. Elizabeth Warren will give a helping hand to whoever the dem candidate is.

Can't say it's going to be fun, as we democrats are getting sick of the anger directed at us.

Any contributions will be used wisely.

Please give. Again. LoL.

I must admit I was wrong when I predicted the wealthy elites who pay for the Conservative Movement wouldn't let us go off the cliff. Then again I saw a different course as a real possibility the moment I heard it;

Republicans will let the tax cuts expire, then agree to new "tax reductions" in order to let them claim they're keeping Grover's pledge.

One of my predictions was right on target, however. Soon a handful of Conservatives will muse to themselves "I thought we'd always been at war with Eurasia." http://books.google.com/books?id=yxv1LK5gyV4C&pg=PA154&lpg=PA154&dq=i+thought+we+were+at+war+with+eurasia&source=bl&ots=om97x5-SP9&sig=PHAPiYJ8O9gTqKMTqXvbWaQG5i4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KZ3UUL_mH8T72QXAuYGgCA&ved=0CF4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=i%20thought%20we%20were%20at%20war%20with%20eurasia&f=false

What a bunch of libaral nut bags on this thread jeeezzz.

Fiesty Said: Since when do you hold a "press conference" and NOT take any questions from the press? It was nothing more than a misinfo-merical!

Where in the %$#& have you been President Obama does it all the time.

Where in the %$#& have you been President Obama does it all the time.

Really?

Give us one example of a date and time when the President didn't take questions at his press conference!

Dumb@!$%#!

I feel like a "sane" Mel Gibson in "Lethal Weapon" in the scene where he handcuffs himself to a person threatening to commit suicide by jumping off a building...Let's jump! Let's go off the cliff! I'm ready! Are you ready!??!

This is all theatrics to play to both parties' base. Go over the cliff. Then, republicans can stick to their mantra to cut taxes and democrats can negotiate spending cuts to government while republicans can negotiate spending cuts on defense. Basically, another episode in kicking the can down the road. Neither party has the intestinal fortitude to take the steps necessary to put us on a road reversing the federal debt.

Feisty - the press conference by LaPierre showed a lack of reality by the NRA and proved they frankly don't give a damn about anything or anyone. They want power and their best way to get it is to appeal to those ignorant enough to believe guns in everyone's hands are a good idea.

Interestingly, last night a reporter spoke to several psychologists who said recent studies show there is NO correlation between people playing violent video games, and watching violence on television to those who take violent actions - as the killer did. Hey, but facts don't matter to the NRA - just their damned guns! They have the blood of 20 children and 6 adults - this time - on their hands. How much more will it take?

So, everything is the fault of the media, video games,

And for the love of gawd, can someone please explain to me how watching Bambi and playing PacMan will put me into a trance and cause me to go on a murderous rampage using an AK-47?

Posted last Thursday; (and it still holds)

The problem isn't making a deal, it has always been selling it to the different constituencies.

Taxes on ME are gonna go up, but maybe a point less than is on the board now.

In lieu of a "grand bargain" (Which is just impossible to sell to the fringes on the left and right)

we will table the so called "entitlement" reform, and actually subject the country to "Debt Ceiling-geddon" again.

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/13/15888302-boehner-to-ohio-this-weekend#c72589820

Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:48 AM EST

I can't believe somebody didn't go up there and just start beating the crap out of LaPierre.

As for the cliff, bring it on my friends. Obama has ALL the leverage now. Go back to $250K. Remove the capital gain and dividends exemptions over $250K too. Make 'em pay.

Bobster, my new "favorite" RWNJ said this on another post:

We put armed folks on the street to protect us. We put armed folks on planes to protect us. We put armed folks in war to protect us. We even put armed folks around liberal rappers, liberal pop stars, and liberal actors. We even have armed folks protecting this idiot-in-chief you libbies elected president.

So why not have armed folks protecting kids?

OK Bob, let's all have the freedom to have every school have it's own security team. One guy isn't enough--he's just be the first one to get shot.

Let's not stop there because very town hall, grocery store, sports center, and movie theater is going to need a SEAL team there too.

What? government is "too big" already and you don't want to pay for it?

Hell, we all just need the freedom to hire our own personal security guard.

F'n Genius you are.

President Obama delivered a statement today, his first to the White House press corps since winning reelection, calling for a balanced approach to fix the deficit that included cuts and revenue increases.

The president, however, did not take questions, the first time a reelected president has done so since before Ronald Reagan's reelection in 1984.

Flash:

Four killed, including gunman, in shooting incident in Pennsylvania

?

?

?

Seeking ...

Interestingly, last night a reporter spoke to several psychologists who said recent studies show there is NO correlation between people playing violent video games, and watching violence on television to those who take violent actions

I agree with that but having numerous friends whose kids are basement dwellers who rarely get off their X-boxes, it sure as he!! makes them EXTREMELY anti-social!

Interestingly, last night a reporter spoke to several psychologists who said recent studies show there is NO correlation between people playing violent video games

Seeking,

Something else to chew on - we are NOT the only country in the world whose kids play video games...

But we are the ONLY country in the world whose kids shoot up schools/movie theaters & malls!

President Obama delivered a statement today

Get back to us when you figure out the difference between a "statement" and a "press conference"...

President Obama does it all the time.

Dingbat!

I am seriously worried about one thing: Our wonderful two-party system is truly in danger because of GOP failures after being taken over by the Tea Party extremists. - Pigotry

I am not sure why you are worried about the Tea Party when they were against Plan B just like your liberal Democrats. Raising taxes on those who make more than $250K does not even come close to addressing the problems. Real cuts in spending, like going back to 2007 levels, need to be made along with tax increases. Democrats have not put the first spending cut suggestion on the table. The GOP is the only ones who have put any meaningful legislation together.

thetotas - oh, you mean like the press conference he held after his visit to Connecticut last week? Or do you mean like the one he had right after the shootings in Connecticut? Or like the one held right after winning office? Or like all the other ones he's held since his re-election? Were you asleep for each of those?

@RedDevPS - seriously? How about Call of Duty Black Ops, Assassin's Creed, etc.

The domestic terrorist who shot up all those kids last week probably expected them (and himself) to 're-spawn' (just like in the video games)...

This republican party has sunk to a new low. How can anyone with a single ounce of self respect back this party?

we are NOT the only country in the world whose kids play video games...But we are the ONLY country in the world whose kids shoot up schools/movie theaters & malls!

Right, Feisty. This is a little off thread but related: Recently edgarw (BrianB) was repeating the mantra that the reason the shooting in Sandy Hook took place was that we took god out of the schools. I replied that there are many countries in the world that don't teach religion in schools, but people don't go into them kill the students.

None of the Right's arguments hold, but that doesn't stop them from repeating the same old crap. (In fact, witness Stacey Peterson above.)

Bill LotsaNumbers,

Raising taxes on those who make more than $250K does not even come close to addressing the problems.

OMG! Bill, listen up and I'll try to make it clear: NO ONE IS SAYING IT WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM! Did I say it loudly enough? Did you hear it?

But taxing the wealthy WILL HELP. It's just PART OF THE SOLUTION! God, I get so tired of hearing the same arguments. Why don't you guys give a shot at thinking for once.

but that doesn't stop them from repeating the same old crap. (In fact, witness Stacey Peterson above.)

These RWNJ's make the energizer bunny look like a slacker!

They just keep going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going and going...

As if the constant repetition makes the lie magically become reality!

Democrats have not put the first spending cut suggestion on the table.

Again, a statement from a misguided low information republican that doesn't know what they are talking about.

One word, Read!

seriously? How about Call of Duty Black Ops, Assassin's Creed, etc.

Seriously, Stacey!! As I recall, Bambi's mother was murdered by a gun-toting madman, and PacMan is all about chasing down and devouring little blue 'men'. They sound violent to me, but not violent enough to make me fall into a murderous rage.

"Why don't you guys give a shot at thinking for once?"-- says Jack in Portsmouth.

Well, Jack, if they had any capacity for thinking, they wouldn't be supporting the Republican'ts in the first place, now would they?

Kinda puts the Rs all- out war against public education in a different perspective, doesn't it?

@Jack & Feisty- you are so right, we are the ONLY country where these shootings occur. The 70-80 killed at the youth camp in Norway last year never happened (or it is that Norway is now part of the US)?

My comment on video games was based on the naive comment about Pac-Man. I also think it is naive to think that ONLY guns are the problem. The NRA is naive to think only movies & video games are to blame.

Have you ever watched (or played) Call of Duty for at least 5 minutes? If you have, can you say video games like these have ZERO potential contribution to the problem?

It was reported the Norway shooter's manifesto claims he used the video game Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 as a training aid (in addition to actual shooting ranges)...

Stacey,

Obviously those games might contribute to someone who is mentally ill to begin with. But, frankly, the games are not going to make them go out there and do it.

Sure. Norway. First time something like that has happened in Norway in decades, if ever. I don't believe it has ever happened in Viet Nam. But here it happens every week. Right? Do you know of a country where it happens every week? Didn't think so.

Jack - "But, frankly, the games are not going to make them go out there and do it." but guns are?

I think you are on to something with your comment about 'it happens every week'. This is a recent phenomenon (least decade or so). There may have been a mass shooting once in awhile prior to then, but not regularly like now.

I'm not saying guns are not a problem, but guns have always been around so they are not the only problem. Growing up, many high schools had rifle teams (and there are still some around to this day). People drove pickups with guns in their gun rack visible in the cab's back window and parked them at the store.

So what has changed in the last decade to spur the frequency & regularity of mass shootings? The sensationalizing of these events with the 24 hour news cycle (notice the Newtown shooter hasn't been dubed a terrorist even thought a mass shooting like this is an act of domestic terrorism). Highly detailed and informative (shooting) video games. The internet and social media. These are all new.

Yes, guns are a problem, but something else is making them go out and do it (on a weekly basis as you say). And that is not the guns.

Stacey,

Yes, guns are not the ONLY problem, but limiting guns will HELP the problem.

...Just like raising taxes on high earners isn't the ONLY solution, but in the increased income will HELP the problem.

Doing nothing on either front, well, that does nothing for either problem.

One more time, I'll type slowly;

Guns don't make people violent, but they make violent people extremely effective.

So instead of arguing about whether we have too little God or to many video games how 'bout we address that one simple fact above?

John B - "Guns don't make people violent, but they make violent people extremely effective."

Yes they do. But you know what is scarier:

Call of Duty could make people violent, and extremely effective.

----

SmBizNY -

I don't think limiting only guns will help the problem, I think it is much more complex. But we'll see since nobody wants to consider anything beyond gun control.

I've posted in the past that we should go just over the cliff. Yes, my taxes will also go up along with the rich, but I think that will help even more combined with the spending cuts.

Exactly John,

Somebody yesterday said a violent criminal will find "some way" to act out with some weapon if he can't get hold of an assault weapon.

Well, you're not going to kill too many if you're wheeling up a wood chipper.

Guns, especially rapid-fire guns with lots of bullets are going to be a lot more devastating.

Stacy,

of course it's more complex, but I disagree, if we had just a few simple rules, it would make it a LOT harder for guns to get in the wrong hands.

In Canada, you have to get a license to buy a gun--sort of like a a license to drive--training, background checks, a test. Then you have waiting periods for any gun.

Sure, criminals will still skirt the rules, but it will be harder for them to get them illegally too.

More mental health care? That would help I guess, but America doesn't even want to pay for poor people's health care (i.e. Medicaid) for "legitimate" health issues like diabetes and cancer. Good luck getting extra money to treat people with personality disorders.

I like the license idea.

---

I'm for Clinton tax rates for all too. But I'd be for ramping back up to them over a period of time--say over 5 years. That way the increase will be slow and predictable.

OK Libbies, lemme ax you a question.

Why don't you want the fiscal cliff and sequestration to happen?

You get your coveted tax increases on EVERYBODY. This has to be good doesn't it? I mean if it's good for just 2% of the wage earners it has to be 50 times better if we go back to the Clinton era rates. Right? Just imagine all the revenue we will generate when all the things Barrack Hussein has been incorporating that will make the economy take off like what Clinton did. Right?

We'll get rid of that pesky "payroll tax holiday". It's only stealing more money from your sacrosanct Social Security entitlement. Actually we should just raise the S.S. tax, I mean contribution, to 17.6%, which would be the biggest tax increase other than the income tax increase. Then we can increase the cap to cover the first $150,000 would add an extra $384 billion. All together this will add a whopping 7 years to S.S. solvency. The other options are to reduce benefits by 24%, raise the retirement age, trimming COLA, means testing or changing the wage-price indexing formula.

You can get your coveted military cuts, even though they'll cost hundreds of thousands of jobs.

You’ll get a 9.4 percent reduction in non-exempt defense discretionary funding and an 8.2 percent reduction in non-exempt nondefense discretionary funding (domestic programs). And 10.0 percent to non-exempt defense mandatory programs.

Cuts to Medicare of 2.0 percent, 7.6 percent to other non-exempt nondefense mandatory programs.

So, why not allow all this to happen?

SmBusOwnerinNY ...

Well, you're not going to kill too many if you're wheeling up a wood chipper.

I dunno! Was pretty effective in Fargo! ;-)

Was pretty effective in Fargo! ;-)

YA!!! ☺

The NRA's solution to everything is more guns. Yep, never let an opportunity to sell more weapons go to waste. Who'd a thunk it! Reminds me of the time the CEO's of the largest tobacco companies told the Senate Committee that smoking wasn't addicting. These clowns are unbelievable.

Guns don't make people violent, but they make violent people extremely effective.

Exactly. You can cut down a hell of a lot more trees much quicker and easier with a chain saw than you can with a hand saw. Just sayin'

I don't think limiting only guns will help the problem, I think it is much more complex. But we'll see since nobody wants to consider anything beyond gun control.

Stacey, you couldn't be more wrong on this. I believe I have heard that everything is on the table, including mental health, to ensure that this sort of tragedy doesn't happen again. You're letting the fear mongers try and persuade you that this is a take over of private gun ownership. It's not. No one has ever said that. Open your mind up a little bit.

Tony - did you understand what I wrote? Did I say anywhere about not having any gun control? I haven't heard anyone mention a takeover of guns (other than wacko extremists). Re-read the line I wrote focusing on the word ONLY.

So you think ONLY gun control will eliminate this epidemic of mass shootings? I hope your right since that is the only thing the posters on this thread (and the president) are considering.

It's funny that someone mentioned 'thinking' earlier, and when Jack mentioned weekly shootings, I started 'thinking' that there has been a rise in mass shootings since Columbine. They were much less frequent prior to that. So in post 1.45 I gave 3 three possible reasons for the spike in recent times. I think it is beyond just guns because guns have been around forever in our country. Something else is at play here.

But apparently everyone is too closed minded to think of any other possiblity at play but gun control. All I'm saying is I think it is more complex than that, it is not ONLY the guns. I have kids so I hope you are all correct in your narrow focused solution.

So you think ONLY gun control will eliminate this epidemic of mass shootings?

No, I don't. But if it makes it harder for someone to carry it out, I'm all for it. And just for the record, I have never said that I support a total ban on gun ownership anywhere at anytime. In fact, just the opposite. What I have, and will continue to do, is voice my objection to private citizens owning assault and or, rapid fire weapons like the Bushmaster used in that terrible shooting. The NRA contends that more armed citizens will stop crime and that's a load of bunk. Just makes more money for the financiers that keep their presence front and center and lines the pockets of our elected officials.

But we'll see since nobody wants to consider anything beyond gun control

Not at all true. My very first utterance on subject pointed to fact that mental health treatment also has to be part of the solution. That was posted on FT and it's also right here; http://johnbdesmoines.newsvine.com/_news/2012/12/17/15951220-people-are-dead-i-dont-care-what-you-think

A lot of others on the Liberal side said many of the same things.

Video games vs. guns? hmmm....Guy walks into a school and points his Wii remote at the kids and starts pressing away. Yeah, that works.

Time to go over the cliff. Then, the republicans can refuse to lower taxes on the middle class. Cutting middle class taxes leads to increased spending on job producing items. Cutting upper class taxes leads to savings and investments in things that don't produce jobs. Trickle down has failed time and again. Middle out has been proven to work. Middle has more money to go out. More jobs for the lower class. Middle class has more money to spend on cars, appliances, etc. More jobs for everyone and more money in the pockets of rich business owners. We have to suffer two years of pain after going over the cliff. However, in 2014, the majority of us will vote out the people representing the 1% and then business of a working government can begin.

Just think of all the innocent people, including children, who are killed every year in the US in car accidents where speed is the primary factor. Why do we need cars that go over 80 mph? Why are they legal? Shouldn't law enforcement and emergency personnel be the only ones that are allowed to drive vehicles that go that fast?

I don't see an issue with slower cars. Makes sense since criminals use faster speeds in the get away.

How many times has one person killed masses of people by deliberately going 100+mph and aiming their car at one after another after another?

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL.....Criminals obey gun control laws in the same manner politicians follow their oath of office...

The Republicans should merely say "For every Dollar of tax increases, Obama must cut a Dollar from spending". Dollar for Dollar, and in the same years - No more 'promises' of spending cuts in the 'future' in return for increased taxes NOW.

That would double the Deficit reduction and be 'balanced'.

Here are the Deficit figures for the last 5 Presidents - with a link to the official Obama White House government source to verify;

Reagan (1981-1988) = $1.339 Trillion over 8 years, or $167 Billion per year.

Bush 1 (1989-1992) = $933 Billion over 4 years, or $233 Billion per year.

Clinton (1993-2000) = $320 Billion over 8 years, or $40 Billion per year.

Bush 2 (2001-2008) = $2.006 Trillion over 8 years, or $251 Billion per year. This included all of the cost of the wars.

Obama (2009-2012) = $5.333 Trillion (Proj) over his first 4 years, or $1,333 Billion per year. That's $4.6 Trillion more than Bush spent in his first 4 years.

Obama projects another $5 Trillion of Deficits in the next 4 years, or more than $10 Trillion which our children and grandchildren will have as a 'millstone' around their necks for their entire lives. Running up huge debts is a great way to 'pander for votes', but somebody will have to pay it back (our children) - with interest. Below is the official government link - See Table 1.3. When Interest Rates return to normal (Average is 4.97% over previous 30 years before Obama), the Interest alone on Obama's projected $20.369 Trillion National Debt in 2016 will increase to over $1,000 Billion per year, vs an average of only $199 Billion per year under Bush. Where is that extra $800 Billion per year ($8 Trillion over 10 years) going to come from??????

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals

PS – Let's also look at the 'JOBS' picture under Obama;

The total average number of people employed in 2008 (Bush's last year, including losses at the end of 2008) = 136,790,000.

The total average number of people employed in 2012 = 133,169,000 – that's a LOSS under Obama of 3,625,000 net jobs.

Here's the Link to official Bureau of Labor Statistics site on employment to verify - Compare average jobs for 2012 vs 2008;

ftp://ftp.bls.gov/pub/suppl/empsit.ceseeb1.txt

In all actuality, going off the cliff is going to seem a lot like today's end of the world. Drama in the media and nothing else.

Sorry Pat, but the GOPTP have already jumped off the cliff, and are gleeful they are taking the rest of the country with them. They are a sick bunch.

We'll see Richardo. We'll see. It would be horrible, but like you I wonder if this over the cliff scenario is media driven.

RedDev, I'm holding out hope that we can do something working with Boehner, McConnell, Reid and Pelosi. Forget the tea party. They are of no use to anyone, including the GOP leadership.

I think Boehner and McConnell and even Cantor know they are up against a wall right now. I may be wrong, but I can't imagine anyone would want to go over the cliff.

For most Americans, going over the "cliff" won't be that terrible. We're already paying higher taxes than those who make millions per year. If we do go over said "cliff", The top 2% are going to feel it the worst.

Those automatic cuts to the military budget are going to take effect also. Remember the ones that the republicans in the house voted for?

You can bet they're squirming now!

There's a Boogy-man under every bed! That's what Boehner and company want you to believe!

agreed. I figured out I pay at least 30% more than those at the top. let THEM feel the pain for awhile, and maybe Boner and the GOP can get their butts kicked.

fuzzy44 . . .

Those automatic cuts to the military budget are going to take effect also. Remember the ones that the republicans in the house voted for?

Poor GOP babies thought they'd have a chance to negotiate their way out of that little mess! They need to learn to pick their battles a little more wisely. The President campaigned on raising taxes on incomes above $250K, compromised to $400 K and still nothing from the party of Grover. Not smart there Boehner. Not smart at all.

Pat say's: "I don't want to go over the cliff. Irresponsible. Get your act together Republicans. We need to raise taxes." By going over the cliff we are increasing taxes since the rates will go back to the Clinton era. I would think that those on the left would be happy to pay the Clinton era tax rates. Going back to the Clinton rates is what the Democrats wanted when they made the Bush tax cuts TEMPORARY, so actually they are not tax raises, just returning to what Congress wanted in the first place.

President Obama, the Democrats and Republicans and everyone else knew two years ago that this day was coming and refused to do anything about it, always waiting for the last minute to try and get an agreement, this time it looks like to little to late.

Remember VP Biden (D) said something like "It's patriotic to pay more taxes".

Just watching an interesting exchange on CSpan between Senators Reid & McConnell.

Sen. McConnell blamed last night on the democrats and said President Obama did nothing to help solve this crisis.

Sen. Reid said - no, President Obama offered things that his own party was against in order to pass it, and that last night was the result of infighting within the Republican Party that had nothing to do with the Democrats.

Reid said he liked Speaker Boehner, and you were left with the impression that he felt badly for the Speaker.

He advised John Boehner to work alongside the democrats and he will have something passed.

It was fascinating.

If we do go "over the cliff" the first thing that will happen is Stocks in Defense will crash, because "the cliff" affects cuts in defense the most.

Then there are all those "long term unemployed" whose checks will be cut off.

sfcret

Yep, I'm for going back the the Cinton rates eventually. I'd say we still need to make the cliff shallower than it is, but eventually we need to get to the top of that cliff.

The analogy of falling off the cliff is wrong, we're facing a suddenly steep cliff UP out of the HOLE we are in.

Reducing taxes now just shallows the slope we have to climb. If I were in charge, I'd implement a slow progression back to the Clinton rates. 20% increments each year over the next 5. Maybe the $250K and above get the whole increase right away. That'll save something like $3T over 10 years.

We gotta pay for what we get. Nobody seems to be interested in giving up anything, so let's start paying for what we get.

AG,

Look for proposals to fix gaps like the long term unemployed cutoff early in the new year.

SmBusOwner - Good analogy. Yes let the Bush tax cuts expire as they were meant to. Let the sequester be implemented. As no one can get a grand bargain, Plan A, Plan B just do nothing and the table is set.

For two years now I have been saying it let the temporary taxes expire. The increased revenue and the balanced decreased spending will put us onto a healthier fiscal path. I am not making light of what it can do to our economy but it will not destroy us. We can weather it and come out stronger in the long run.

I can even agree with sfcret.

AmBusOwnerinNY - You said you would be willing to go back to Clinton's rates eventually. What is eventually? Had Obama kept his promise to veto the Bush tax cuts extension two years ago, we would not be in this situation now. We have to bit the bullet and get this over with sooner or later, I prefer sooner than later.

Let's start over next year with a new Congress, and let's start by requiring an audit of all government programs, departments and agencies to cut waste, duplication, and fraud. There are some estimates from some Inspector Generals and the GAO that this would save billions. At the same time we revise the tax codes by closing loop holes, subsidies and other deductions. Then look at projected revenues and spend accordingly to what we can afford. If we need more revenue then discuss raising taxes.

Pat, despite having some well-developed skills and buckets of experience, I live in a somewhat depressed region (outside of North Dakota, where the Hell ain't?), so am not hauling in the big bucks hand- over- fist.

RAISE MY *^%$#$@! TAXES, FOR GOD'S SAKE! Just raise 'em a percentage point or two- I'm paying about 18.5%, now, is an even 20% gonna f*****g KILL me? Not bloody likely!

That's a typical Liberal talking, ready to make a personal sacrifice for the greater good of the whole. In a gentler time, we used to call that "taking one for the team."

A conservative, on the other hand, understands the urgent need for sacrifices to be made immediately, and they can't understand why the elderly, the disabled, and the extremely poor can't just shut up and take their medicine. Of course sacrifices have to be made, by somebody else!

They've forgotten that there is no 'I' in 'team'. However, there is one in avarice, in selfish, in vile, there are two 'I's' in idiocy, in criminal, in vicious, in disgusting, in unpatriotic...

Foxtrotsky Very well put. I really like the "unpatriotic" part.

P.S.: Today's GOP is no longer your grandfather's Republican party.

I like Ike.

Happy Holidays, Pigotry. Today's GOP isn't the party that I belonged to up until 4 years ago.

There would be no room in the GOP for Ike.

StelerFan you are right on. I haven't belonged to the Reflubican party since Regan left office.

Happy Holidays, Steeler Fan-380417, I agree.

Sometimes you are up; sometimes, you are down; but always get up and move forward after you are down. Nothing more required to move forward other than common sense.

Pigotry. We would have been better off with Ike Turner as our President than Eisenhower. He knew when he left office that he had set in motion the mechanism for our eventual destruction. How many Nuclear Weapons and ICBM's did we build in the 50's. We scared the Russians and Chinese so bad that we ended up with one cold war and now we are ramping up for the next. Look at the difference between our State Department Budget and our Military Budget. It shows you what we are really all about!

Hey everybody! Let's jump. I am with Howard Dean on this...it will hurt but we can finally solve our issues quickly and responsibly. And, we can finally make real cuts to defense which neither party will do. Let me guess it's all about the jobs! I think that argument worked well for Hitler when they were building up Nazi Germany.....

RandogM - you have a good point in #3.5. But Eisenhower had done many good things -such as interstate highway system - which was orginally built for military purposes.

Pigotry, the white South has taken over the GOP. And having a black President makes them crazy.

If you want to see that sort of fanaticism, look at 1861.

We also have to re-define "fiscally conservative." Seems like it applies more to the Democratic Party these days than the Republicans.

Well Stated Amy !!!!

We also have to re-define "fiscally conservative."

We can safely say the GOPTP is "fiscally challenged". It's like watching a monkey trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

It's like watching a monkey trying to put a square peg into a round hole

Or a monkey f*cking a football... ☺

Or a monkey f*cking a football... ☺

At least the monkey scored.

Feisty - are you insinuating Boehner is a monkey, and Cantor a football? Naughty, naughty. Well, if the foo @!$%#s, wear it !!

Can someone explain the Weepers or Cantors statement that they will return " if needed"?

So the TeaPeople (crazies), are already part-time employees, now they're "on-call"!

I suggest that their checks should reflect that they are indeed part-time, on-call employees!

Hey, TeaPeople, you are not needed, don't come back.....Will you return to your districts and tell folks how you want to slash programs for the poor, the elderly, like "meals on wheels", "unemployment benefits", etc......doubt that you will.

Well stated, Amy!

RedDev ...

We can safely say the GOPTP is "fiscally challenged". It's like watching a monkey trying to put a square peg into a round hole.

Amen to that! Not touching Feisty's comment ... the visual was enough! ;-)

chilled: "Can someone explain the Weepers or Cantors statement that they will return " if needed"?"

(*Waving hand madly*) I can! I can! You know how every time it snows a half an inch in Washington, D.C. they tell all the "non-essential" government employees to go home early and take the next week off? Well, now we know who all those people are!

all the "non-essential" government employees to go home

Thanks JoAnne......hopefully, they will stay home.....

I can't think of ANYTHING the Republican party brings to the table any more. They represent such a small percentage of the people and they have nothing constructive to offer. They only work to create drama and make it appear they are actually doing anything other than standing in the way of the country.

What a farce this group has become. They are totally useless and - eventually - those left in the part will realize their "leadership" doesn't care about the majority of them - at all.

The Hastert Rule--that a GOP Speaker will bring nothing to the Floor that does not have the support of a majority of the GOP Caucus--gives a small minority a veto over all legislation. At least so long as you have a GOP majority in the House.

GOP, your comment about this being a rich man's ploy is so true.

Thanks Pat.

I calls em' as I see em'.

..because we know the GOP has failed...last night.

Yep, like I said, Pigslop, it's all on the Democrats now. Whadaya gonna do???????????

Not to worry Oscar, the Democrats will take care of you republicans mess, just like we always do.

Mo. care to define "take care of you Republicans mess?" ????!?!?!?

I wouldn't expect you to understand Oscar. So I'll just let you wallow it around in your little head for a while.

Pass President Obama's bill and get out of the way, you'll see what the economy can do. If you can't lead, then shut up and fall in line.

Just as I expected from you, Mo. Gloat about the "do-nothing, " "failed GOP" but can't define what you stand for or what you/the Democrats would do different. Go ahead and wallow in your own little self-proclaimed superiority.

Yep, like I said, Pigslop, it's all on the Democrats now. Whadaya gonna do???????????

What a typical, weak-kneed Republican response. We can't do anything to fix the issue, so we lay it all at your feet. What a bunch of frickin' cowards.

That's one way to look at it, RedDev, but PROCEDURALLY, it's now up to the Senate. The House voted on/passed their bill.

That's one way to look at it, RedDev, but PROCEDURALLY, it's now up to the Senate. The House voted on/passed their bill.

UHMM........... The House did not pass plan B. Maybe you should read the article!

"It's all on the Democrats now"?

Nope,........it ain't.

Takes a lot more than a few Democratic votes to pass legislation. Takes a House majority, and like it or not,.....that's still in the GOP's purview.

Fortunately the grown-ups are in charge now cause the kids took their toys and left the sandbox in a huff last night. The Democrats will allow the fiscal slope to occur, and the Republican-ratified cuts will kick in on January 2nd, 2013.

Hopefully more defense cuts can be made in the New Year. Last year was not kind to the Pubbies, and I hope 2013 is even less so. Then the mid terms should bury the Pubbies, and put them back in their place,......a minority.

you're right, fuzzy. They passed Plan A. I said nothing about Plan B.

you're right, fuzzy. They passed Plan A. I said nothing about Plan B.

Plan A was dead before it went to the Senate. That's a no brainer. So there is no plan!

yep, fuzzy, but Plan A DID go to the Senate. Harry Reid chose not to bring it to a vote. Thus, it's all on the Democrats now.

Ricardo ...

If you can't lead, then shut up and fall in line.

We should all send Boehner a Christmas card with that perfect sentiment!

Layton:

"

Ricardo ...

If you can't lead, then shut up and fall in line.

We should all send Boehner a Christmas card with that perfect sentiment!"

Funny, I was thinking that about 0bama - he can't lead.

Fuzzy says: "Plan A was dead before it went to the Senate. That's a no brainer. So there is no plan!" I believe Harry Reid and the Democrats in the Senate said if plan B passed the House, it was dead on arrival, also President Obama promised to veto it, if the Senate did pass it. So why are the liberals making such a big deal out of the failure of the House to pass Plan B, knowing it wasn't going anywhere if passed.

Since the liberals liked the Clinton tax increases so much they must be excited about going back to them after the first of the year.

The Rep./T.P. appears to be content to see this country collapse as long as the P.O.T.U.S. is blamed.How many times have we seen a cartoon comment of some fool sitting on the wrong end of the branch of a tree,saw in hand, happily sawing the branch off.Do we still consider this amusing in a contemptuous way or are we now shocked at the lengths that these creatures are willing to drive this country to? I personally expect to see us experience the so called fiscal cliff but I also know that we will survive it .We have done so many times before and I know that we will again,but it will be a big disappointment to those idiots who would rather see the branch come down with them of course going down with it.Their masters will pat their dead bodies on their broken parts and say well done you faithful fools ,hopefully I will find more where you idiots came from! Hatred is usually that self destructive.

maybe we should just dress all of our children in full body armor! The NRA is a dangerous entity.

If Boehner doesn't keep the speakership (don't under estimate the GOP penchant for masochism), I think it will go to Cantor---which is a very scary thing.

Cantor is as ambitious as Lucifer. But Ryan would be worse. And Price is genuinely scary.

There is a better chance for a grand bargain, if Speaker Boehner is reelected Speaker, and when some of the more-extreme Tea Baggers (like Rep. A. West) are no longer in the House GOP.

So exactly how would the marginal tax revenue through a tax hike on the rich translate into reducing the deficit? The American public is so blind and ignorant to the real costs of the government. Try spending cuts for a change. Try eliminating the mortgage interest deduction, property tax deduction and EIC for starters. That's real money that the Treasury isn't receiving from the public.

Regarding gun control, do you really think that banning assault rifles is going to stop another massacre? Do you think limiting the number of bullets a clip holds is going to make the difference between a tragedy of losing 26 innocent lives and say 10 or 15? Does it make a difference? I agree that the NRA is out of touch with reality of how to protect America, but I think our political leaders are equally out of touch with reality with their current offerings of legislation. Go ahead and pass these gun control laws, and then let's see what explanation you have when another Newtown tragedy happens, only with a .45 colt or a hunting rifle.

Yea. JK1963. Who told you raising rates on people making over 250K a yr would make substantial deficit reduction. No dem told you that I'm sure. However, I do see you repukes just wanting to beat down the lower and middle class. You said it yourself. And I quote; "eliminate mortgage interest deduction, property tax deduction and EIC" That is our eternal conflict. Repukes are elitists. I'd love to know how much money your going to put in your coffin. Real people hate elitist. You don't speak for middle of the road people just trying to make the best for their families. You only want to take care of rich people. Money don't make you rich. Get it through your F---in head. St---d A--.

Well...well...Steve...nice name calling...typical from the left. You on the left want to live in some world where you think everything is paid for by the rich. Really? Hate to break this to you, but you are the ones that sucking the economy dry. The reason this country is in the shape that its in is because there far more "takers" than "givers". Try being a "giver" for once, instead of being a "taker". If you want to go around being blind and ignorant to where the REAL costs of this government are then go ahead and beat the drum against the rich. They are far smarter and successful than you.

JK1963 - Yes, raising taxes on all of those making over $400,000 WOULD make a different as well as the cuts to programs the President has poposed. And, your continued stupidity in assuming that people who are for a tax increase wouldn't be part of it shows your ignorance. More liberals are in the 1% group than Republicans. We just realize that paying more taxes is the right thing to do - and amazingly many of the top Republican CEO's have come out in favor of a tax hike. So, please try a different song - that one is beyond stupid and is far past being OLD!

As to assault weapons - there is NO need for them and it is past time to ban them. Will it keep an atrocity like the one in CT from happening again? That, along with banning clips of more than 10; stronger licensing to own a gun; requiring training to own any gun; closing loopholes on sales of guns; strengthening background checks; and improving our mental health programs - it will be a big step in helping to see that no more such atrocities happen.

Clearly you'd prefer making our schools arsenals instead because that would be such a GREAT learning environment for the children of our country!

Seeking,

Clearly you don't read what anyone writes, but that's ok. Did I say anywhere about arming teachers at schools? Did I not say that the NRA was out of touch with realty? Was I NOT specific regarding that just banning assault rifles or large capacity clips would not solve the problem or are you too ignorant to read my post? I agree there needs to be stricter registration. I agree that we need to strengthen background checks. But did I talk about that in my first post?? Of course not, because you are too dim witted to comprehend other people's post.

Regarding taxes...gee...last I heard that just raising the tax rate on those making over $250K would only add $40 to $45billion annually to the coffers. That is a drop in the bucket! And if as you claim that there are more liberal 1%'er's than conservatives, then why haven't they ALREADY contributed more than they are required to contribute?? You have to have the government tell you to do something you feel is more "patriotic"?? I hear the whining from the left about how all these rich folks cry that their tax rates need to be increased, but not one ever offers up that he paid MORE than he was required to do. Talk about hypocrites!!

And lastly as for you...I've seen your posts time and time again and I feel sorry for you that you are such a hurtful person. I feel sorry for your family in that they probably had hoped they raised a more positive child. You have proven yourself on this board to be a bully time and time again. When a person doesn't agree with your opinion then you berate and insult them. You remind of the bully on the school ground that liked to make fun of others when in reality you are the insecure one and the only way to make yourself feel like you have any self worth is to belittle others.

JK1963 - before you start lecturing anyone you should really read your own post. You accuse steve of "sucking the economy dry" and being one of the "takers" instead of the "givers" (I'm guessing you think you fit into the "giver" category - what a joke)!

You fall back on the lie the Republicans have been spouting every chance they get over the past few years - that anyone who isn't far right is on the "take" from the government - although more of us work than those on the far right - and make better salaries.

YOU feel it is okay to put Steve down then try to berate me? What a HYPOCRITE! Try reading your own nonsense for once - unless you don't actually comprehend what you post.

Am I angry - not usually - actually a very happy person who - luckily - had a wonderful life growing up with parents who taught us better than yours apparently taught you. I don't put those down who haven't been as fortunate in their lives. But, of course, you know you are sooooo much better than those who have fallen on hard times, so it is absolutely okay for you to spew your nastiness about them - because it's YOU doing it. So sorry I didn't catch that.

You talk about whining and yet that is all I see in your post - whining and more of the far right lies.

Try growing up. And, don't worry about my life - it's very good. You however, might want to look at the one you have since you need to lie about others in order to make yourself feel good. I'm sure you won't bother - it doesn't fit your agenda or your need to believe you are better than others - which you're clearly not!

I hope your holidays are very good because for someone like you, I'm sure they stink. Too bad.

Seeking,

Nice that you didn't address of the points I make...but again that's ok. I see you like to tow the line for the liberals. My post to Steve was in reply to his initial rant about "repukes", "moaner bonner (not sure if he knows he is misspelling his name or not), "rantor Cantor" and "lyin Ryan". I see that you don't bother to correct him, yet go out your way to (again) insult me.

My holidays will be shared with loving people. We will be certainly sending prayers (you know...that religious thing that you might not be aware of) to our relatives and friends that are STILL in Afghnistan as well as those that were affected by senseless tragedies this year.

Trust me, I won't lose a minute of sleep about you. I know that you will again reply with more insults, so I"m looking forward to your next rant about nonsense. You make for good laughs.

Again, you make silly assumptions. I know more TRUE Christians that are liberal than I do that are Republican. See, you guys are so filled for hate for everyone you don't even play the role well.

And, I addressed many of your rants - too bad your reading comprehesion skills, like your skills of reasonable deduction, are sorely lacking.

Unfortunately, you're not even good for a laugh. You are a very sad little man.

Addressed any issues??? Like usual, more insults, no substance... Typical from the left...so explain to me why you liberal 1%er's don't give more than what is required? Explain to me why there is NO reason for assault guns to exist (except because you SAY so...). And before you go off on a rant, I don't believe assault guns should be in the public hands, but just because someone SAYS that they shouldn't isn't reason enough.

Ok...so define a "TRUE" Christian...enlighten us...

Like usual...more BS from the left...

I am still unable to see the logic of not having the rich and super rich pay their fair share of the burdens of running this country . Their minions claim that doing so will not solve our fiscal problems. So continue to tax me. Although I pay a larger percentage than they do,this country has only a hope in hell that my taxes would solve our problems for thirty seconds. So if taxing them will not solve our problems,then I can't see why we tax anyone . So you excuses for the 1+% people . I guess that we U.S. citizens will now be free of taxes Yippee!

I intended to add the same argument in favour of rigid gun control to my comment#13 .10/above. If that won't help to stop the mayhem I would like to add grenades to my armament collection as I am not too good with my rifles and handguns. I have not killed any living thing yet so I am entitled to own some.

Listoire,

Simply banning something doesn't solve the problem. It has to do with registration and background checks. Just simply saying we should not have assault rifles or high capacity clips might or might not have prevented what happened in Newhope. Don't get me wrong, I don't find a useful purpose with having assault guns, but just saying we shouldn't have them doesn't solve the problem.

liatoire - you're absolutely right - on both issues.

Continuing to allow the purchase of weapons whose sole purpose is to kill as many people as possible IS an issue and should not be allowed. Nor should the purchase of an ammo clip of more than 10.

And, as I said before, we need to have licensing that is as difficult as it is to get a driver's license. There should be a complete background check - mental as well as criminal; required training and testing. You should also have to show that you intend to take reasonable steps to keep them out of the hands of anyone now licensed - locks, etc. Loopholes should be closed for the private sellers so no background check can be avoided.

And, we have to have stronger mental health problems to recognize and treat those who are ill.

Here's a problem with the NRA's idea...they had armed guards at Columbine.

Bullsh*t!

gringo--pardon?

gringo ...

Sueb1 is 100% correct ... you should read a little more . . .

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2012/12/21/columbine_armed_guard_colorado_shooting_shows_that_nra_s_shield_program.html

Or lets, stick to the second amendment the way the founders pictured it. Anybody can have all the front loading flintlock muskets that they want--and that's it.

Damn Harlyguyvet, finally somebody who gets it. No one seems to realize that when the founding fathers drafted the 2nd. amendment a weapon might be loaded and fired twice a min by an expert. Never in their wildest dreams did they or could they conceive of weapons that could fire hundreds or thousands of rounds a minute. They would certainly call for a repeal of the second amendment as it stands now. Ban all semi-automatic and automatic weapons now. Call for mandatory federal prison time for anyone in possession of one. That would be a great start in the elimination of these worthless things.

also, when the founding fathers drafted the 2nd amendment, the GOVERNMENT didn't have the weapons they have now.

Oscar - I'll bet you look under your bed every night for the boogeyman, don't you? Yes, the government is going to barge into your home and take everything you have - no, actually that is the Republican party - and they're already doing it. You're just too dumb to realize what is going on!

Get over it, Obama is not a socialist and he doesn't have a plan to ruin the country. And we've been in worse financial situations than this...guess what, we're still here. Take your apocalyptic rhetoric back to Fox news.

no gringo. its what the GOP had in mind the whole time.

"..its what the GOP had in mind the whole time." It sure seems so Catherine. They were going to make everyone pay higher taxes if they had to and you knew there was not going to be a deal made to preserve the middle class tax break if they couldn't get theirs.

This time they knew there was no way, so you see them stepping on the unfaithful underlings absent any loyalty, graciousness or consideration for the common-folk, or thanking the broad based working class of America for their own lofty fortunes...and lastly, who ever said these guys would even have the simple common sense of a Ford. This stupidity will come back to bite them in the butt when their poor radio brainwashed folks actually begin to feel the pinch and see what they have done, or they can just go sit abroad somewhere as we raise tariffs on incoming products from their runaway shops. Then, when the natives go on strike they can pull some of that stash out of their offshore accounts and afford to fly away in their private jets to their private estates somewhere.

Meanwhile, there are so many American families now feeling the pinch as a back bite in ways they never dreamed they would and getting really fed up. But... they will be able to practice a little more austerity being that they're already standing on the ground and good at it after some time of practice. For them it will not be a crash. Good news is that they can finally look up to watch the yee haws, social climbers, jet setters and holy rollers squirm a little, slip, and some may even fall from their lofty porches to hit the ground like everyone else.
Then, We The People can get back to conducting our business on Main Street feeling safe enough to walk there once again as our city, village and small town life must, out of simple necessity, go on.

steve -- are you predicting a smackdown similar to the one given the democrats in 2010?