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Subscribe to RSSAs more protests are planned in Michigan over the controversial right-to-work bill, Rep. Hansen Clarke (D-Mich.) tells MSNBC's Thomas Roberts that he's concerned the legislation will "end up cutting wages and benefits for middle-income workers who really need the money right now."
Michigan's congressional delegation met Monday with Gov. Rick Snyder, asking him to veto or at least delay a vote on a "right to work" law moving through the state's legislature.
Democrats and organized labor groups have launched an all-out blitz they are hoping might halt legislation that would establish workers' rights to employment in a workplace without having to join a union. The Republican-held state legislature passed versions of the legislation last week, and are set to bring it up for final consideration as soon as Tuesday.
NBC's Mark Murray and Domenico Montanaro discuss the fiscal cliff deadline and President Obama's motives behind his trip to Michigan on Monday.
Snyder, a first-term Republican governor who's fashioned himself as a more pragmatic leader, has said he would sign the bill if it came to his desk.
"We strongly urged the governor to veto the so-called right to work bill, or at a minimum, ask the legislature to delay the vote on it," Sen. Carl Levin said in a conference call to describe Democrats' meeting with the governor. "The governor listened, and he told us that he would 'seriously,' in his words, consider our concerns."
Former Michigan Republican Governor John Engler, who is the president of the business roundtable, joins The Daily Rundown's Chuck Todd to talk about President Barack Obama's trip the Michigan, the fiscal cliff, and Michigan's 'right to work' law.
Snyder's office had no immediate reaction to Democrats' characterization of the meeting.
Michigan has become the latest Midwestern epicenter over labor rights as a result of this fight, following Ohio and Wisconsin. The Republican governors of those states led efforts to curb or eliminate collective bargaining rights for public employees' unions.
Alex Wong / Getty Images
Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin
National Democrats have begun to wade into the fight as well, issuing blistering statements warning against the Michigan proposal. The fight could be elevated further this afternoon, when President Barack Obama visits the Detroit area in a previously-scheduled trip.
Democrats are particularly incensed by a procedural move used by Republican authors of the bill which would prevent the law from being challenged by a statewide referendum. The Democrats who met Monday with Snyder said they had also urged the governor to change that provision, so that the right to work proposal could be brought to a popular vote.
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synder has got to go...... along with the state house and senate!!!!!
You do realize we just had an election don't you?
Non rich Republicans who hate Unions have an unpatriotic, anti-American streak in them... Treason is a capital offense... You better watch yourselves !!!
Treason is obama's debt!!!
What's "unpatriotic and anti-American" is not letting workers choose for themselves.
up yours mr owl. who do you think you are. it is you democrats that are unpatriotic. you are the cowards who are quiting the war. as for unions i say pass the right to work law and shove the democratic way of breaking the bank up your democrat behind. unions are the way to bankruptcy look at california and the democrat government. broke, begging for help from anyone and everyone that will pay their bills for them because they overspent their income base. to blame republicans for not supporting your comunist ideas and calling them treasonists, it is again you democrats that are not supporting the constitution and or ignoring it, obamacare is a prime example of forcing comunist ideas down someones throat. you and your president are the the ones commiting treason, that is a big word to use for someone like yourself that does not understand our consititution or what it means. as for unpatriotic yes you are a communist sounding idiot, shut up moron.
More people should acquaint themselves with the definition of "treason."
You see this used all the time to indicate "something I disagree with." Sounds truly ignorant.
John - who are the "you" who are being warned? Concerned readers (yawn) need to know. Hilarious.
Progressives have taken a page from George Orwell. Up is now down, yes is now no, patriotic is now treason. I think truthspeak was the term.
Valhalla - you're not making sense - try to be clearer OK? I can't figure out what you're trying to say!!!
Ok, this isn't fun anymore, the Michigan RTW is a done deal!!!
Let's discuss obama's failures such as;
a marxist America
debt
economy
no leadership
no jobs
fast and furious
green failures
benghazi
You know, the meaningful things???
Well, gary, you throw out a lot of tag lines, but make no points. If you have something to say, say it...and look up the word "articulate" before you do, eh?
elk,
Perhaps you have noticed this entire comment board has proven to be filled with those whose Party lost sore losers trying to whip up a bit more hate and using their superior ability to have selective memory. Like Gary K never mentioning those true high level atrocities commited by the Presidents HE voted for!
Sore Losers venting their frustrations while offering nothing. Why does it all sound so familiar? Because they are repeating their obfuscations and lies here, oblivious to Facts and Importance of Truth. Just spoutinf Faux Talking Points.
Remember, There Is A War On Christmas, Too!!! Lock & Load!!!!
Do conservatives know the history of union organization and why it was necessary in this country?
Most of them seem to be choosing to ignore it. If they hadn't come to be most of us would still be working 7-12 hours per day and earning little or no wage at all. Heck most of us probably wouldnt be able to afford a decant education unless we were born rich.
prog.1 and dahwhatsdat???
Key Word HISTORY... GET OVER IT.
When was the last time that you got up a O'Dark 30 to milk a cow so your family could have fresh milk?
When was the last time that you went into the woods to collect fire wood so your family could stay warm in the winter and cook your food?
When was the last time you had to hitch up your horse to go into town to buy supplies?
Yes,,, That's Right... That is all in HISTROY.
Things Change... I bet you don't have a Horse, or an Ax or a Woodshed...
Why... Because they are NO LONGER NEEDED.
No longer needed? You will singing a different tune when the minimum wage drops dramatically or is abolished and you are working from 4 AM to 11 PM with no weekends or sick days.
dahwhatsdat???
You are WAY out of Wack.
Progressives, or should we call them regressives, like to say conservatives want to turn back the clock. Unfortunately they are looking in the mirror when they say it. It is they that want to return to 50's style union thuggery and 50's style socialism. Conservatives have moved on.
OK guys, cogent truth for y'all to consider...Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to relive it.(George Santayana). THAT's why history is important, OK?
Some of you will not understand what unions do until you are forced to work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week for subsistence wages. Living in a company house, if you're lucky, shopping at the company owned store, owing the company more than you earned for the week. It happened before and it will happen again. All it takes is a compliant, ignorant workforce. Plenty of evidence here to support that.
My fear is that you take yourself seriously????
Gary he makes a point. Or did you not pay attention in grade school when the rest of us were studying American history?
Get real we are not a bunch of un.....educated idiots............companies want the best work force they can get and will pay to get them........and I'm not talking some simple service work..burger king, cleaning, simple labor that a lot of union and immigrants want to make careers....I'm talking decent full time work.... no union needed. The cost of road rebuilding major construction is more costly because the union wages.....a laborer makes $28.50 hr that is silly....dig holes for $30.00 per hour and charge a tax payer who may not make that much but has a much more skilled job.....pure stupidity
Dah he mumbled whatever, but nothing that corresponding to today!!
JCC@FL
And how far back in time was that? And as I have heard many libs say here... If you don't like it, get a different job!
Not that long ago actually. Only about 50-60 years.
Also if I cannot find another job and am stuck with a sucky one the least I should be able to do is lobby for some better working hours. Thats what the union is for after all. If you were stuck working 10-12 hours per day we wouldnt be having this discussion.
dahwhatsdat???
But you still had that Option...
I believe RTW should be a federal law...........why do I have to be in a union to work it is not American...
Because unions are forced to reprenent you and you receive all the benefits of the contracts that the union negotiates for their members.
No they don't have to if I opt out........I can represent myself .........something I've done and done well for many years. Unions are the past (history), education and skills are the future
Yes, look at the unemployment benefits the union got for Hostess workers, both union and non-union. Even after the courts gave them a second chance, they still chose to put everyone out of work. Who, but union goons, would be smart enough to accomplish that?
prog.1
Where is it written that a company even has to have a Union?
Unions are NOT forced to represent the workers, nowadays more often than not they do not represent workers, they represent themselves. When right to work passed in WI, tens of thousands quit the unions.
That's the real fear of union bosses and the democrats they fund. Freedom is bad for democrats.
Union goons had best take note, the writing's on the wall--
Soon each state will pass the act of "Right to work for all"--
These knuckle dragging goons are legion and not just a few--
When displaced mayhaps they'll find work with the apes---
at the unorganized local zoo.
Americans have no one to blame but themselves: Their love for cheap IMPORTS destroyed manufacturing jobs along with Democrats demands on corporations. Just think of the jobs that would be available by removing all the ILLEGALS in the US ???? How many of the estimated 20 Million live off of the tax Dollar,welfare, rent assistance,utilities, Medicaid and pay no taxes?????Look at how many are in the prisons and after release get free housing waiting to be deported.Our democrats can't understand the word Illegal,why?????
@ John Odd Owl:
And watch the exodus.
According to government figures a record number of citizens expatriated last year. And we are on track to exceed that number this year. And next year will no doubt be even worse now that Obama is re elected. And unless something is done to make this country more business friendly every year the number will get larger. The productive, self reliant people are leaving. And they're taking their wealth, businesses, and tax money with them.
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48118502/ns/business-personal_finance/t/socialite-dumps-us-passport-most-taxes-too
Yep, that's the one! If a NY liberal democrat can do it, I have no guilt doing the same.
Look, I will make this short, sweet, and to the point. I live in Michigan, work here, and belong to a union. This is nothing more than a concerted effort to play politics. This was not even mentioned until the Republicans were going to lose their stranglehold on the House of Representatives come January. The governor said he wants people to have a voice. During last Thursday, they introduced the bill, after "negotiating" with the Speaker and Senate Majority Leader. I am not sure how you "negotiate" with only one side present. Then, they closed off the capital building, not allowing anybody in. If people were already in, all seats in the public gallery of each house were filled by Republican staffers. The Republicans refused to allow it to be seen by the public before introduction, refused senators and representatives the ability and time to read the actual bill before the required vote, and did not go through the normal channels. They didn't allow it to go through the committee process, or allow it to be properly introduced, instead substituting it for a bill already in the hopper. When people were watching it on the state legislature channel, they shut it down and played a gospel recording, for goodness sakes!!!
All the while, our "nerd" governor is saying that he relies on data, and that this is about "choice." Well, governor, there is not a shred of data that shows the workers or the state are any better off. In fact, poverty is higher, wages are lower, and the overall living conditions are worse in RTW states. People have the choice in whether or not to join the union. It's called not applying to a business which supports quality union work, or be a dues payer. But, and this is for all my friends out there who are always complaining about freeloaders, RTW is the essence of freeloading. It is about getting all the benefits of belonging to a union without paying to support it. It is getting a good union contract, with pay and benefits, but refusing to support the agency that brought you those benefits. RTW is the right to freeload. Nothing more, it is a sham and a vapor used to destroy the collective voice of the worker, so he will work longer, for less wages and benefits, and less job security. That is a right to beg. I choose not to support that.
union's will no longer be able to prey on the GED!!!!
Gompers:
And that was somehow fundamentally different than what the Democrats did during the ACA "negotiations"???? You know when they changed the locks on the chamber doors so Republicans couldn't attend.
What's good for the goose; is good for the gander. I guess Republicans learned from the best eh?
have another drink...........here try the red kool aid...........you have no clue........you repeat what has been told to you.............try the blue colored one........drink up and be a good little union member.......wow
Gompers
Are you talking about the RTW Bill or OBAMACARE?
I appreciate all of your feedback. I see they have fallen into two camps - an attack on federal level issues, or a personal attack on myself. Either way, you have done nothing to refute the facts presented, which only makes the arguments and facts stronger. Thank you for your assistance regarding this. I would encourage you to actually expand your minds, and work to refute what is actually said, as opposed to slovenly approaches of personal attacks (Drink the Kool-aid? Really, that's the best you've got? And Gary K - "unions," not "union's" when you're attacking someone about their lack of intelligence. Know your plural from your possessive cases - it's a much more effective insult when I don't have to correct your grammar.). Thanks again, for all of your insightful and obviously overwhelming amount of knowledgeable input. I look forward to your continued lack of prescient wisdom.
You don't have clue what you are talking about. I've been on both sides and unions are pure socialist evil. They reward failure and punish success. How many unions allow pay for performance? On the other hand, how many defend the most abhorrent behaviour? Good luck firing even the worst of the worst in a union shop.
Unless you've seen from both sides, your opinions are irrelevant.
Thank you for your input. I have been on both sides. When I went to a union shop, my working conditions, wages, and benefits improved substantially. I appreciate you commenting about my past without knowing it. As far as your other comments, not many businesses have pay for performance, either. As far as firing, both employer and union agree to the terms and process of termination. If they agreed to it, then both sides need to follow the process. As far as socialist evil, what exactly does that mean? Sounds like a throwaway line used to draw attention away from the fact that no one still hasn't refuted my original statements. Oh well.
Sorry to hear the union owns you. "belong to a union"
Tracy - touche. As close as that is to insult, still not there yet. I also belong to AAA. Does that mean I am owned by them? No. It is an agreement entered into and agreed upon by both sides. I also belong to a gym. Does that mean I am owned by them? No, and for the same reason. However, I can say that wages, benefits, and working conditions are substantially better belonging (there's that word again!) to a union. I can also say I am shocked by Republicans, who allegedly endorse small government and not interfering with the market, are trying to undo 70 years of settled labor law in a lame duck session without any input from the citizens that elected them. In fact, there has been no input allowed, save emails and phone calls. They won't meet with constituents. Tracy, I wish you well in your endeavors. Thank you for your input.
While all of you republitards are crying about how the GOP were left out of the ACA, please explain how they(Republicans) managed to have over 160 amendments added to the bill, and then chose not to vote for it?
Don't take my word for it, it's part of the Congressional record.
I have been in the carpenters union for more than 40 years. In that time I have been in leadership and part of the delegation from our state. I know the union"thugs" as some would call them. I can honestly say that in talking to these people on a one to one basis that these guys have one goal in mind and that is to work for a time when we don't need unions in this country. Unfortunately, now is not that time. This is a consistent message that I heard all over the country and with everyone working in the organization. When I was working in the field the only "seniority" I experienced was that you had to produce or you were gone. This RTW thing has been around a long time and it is just another talking point that the right wing uses to gin up stupid people into voting against their own interest. Everyone has a right to work. If you don't want to be in a union find a job were you don't have to join, it's that simple. It makes me laugh that people get crazy about loosing their right to own a machine gun that cost 150 bucks to operate for 15 seconds but when their rights to peaceful assembly is attacked they go RAH RAH it's socialism. Our contractors like being in the union because there are benefits for them. They get predictable wages and increases or decreases. They get a break on healthcare prices for their people because we bargain with the power of 60,000 people. We train our people with the best training system in the country. Their people get a consistent pension that is funded every month. I got to retire after 40 years with a pension that supports my family. I have never been without insurance or had to change doctors when I worked for sometimes 13 contractors in a single year. I now support myself with no public assistance or handouts. I have worked hard my whole life and resent people that call me lazy and good for nothing. Yes the Union has problems just like every other organization, but there wouldn't be a need for Unions if it weren't for the greed of some businesses and people who think that peoples time, dignity and ingenuity can be bought for peanuts.
But I want to work big construction in Boston and if your not union you can't ....so really tell me why I can't work on these projects and not be union???? because some union folks made a contract that says that??? that is bull crap Ihould decide what I want and where I work and to what organization I joib....forced unionism is wrong
My first house was built with union labor. Never again, total incompetence. All the most competent trades people I know are non union. All make good money because of their reputation.
Are your union bosses telling democrats to clamp down on illegals? I haven't heard a peep. Even illegals do far better work than union slugs, if your union really cared they'd lay down the law with democrats.
you say that non-union members that benefit from labor agreements are getting a free ride...but what about all those non-union workers who feel that the benefits that they get aren't as good as others? I had a job once in the hospitality industry, that was union exempt...so the benefits that I got were the same as the people on the non-corporate side. Much better benefits that I hated losing when I changed jobs to one that was not exempt. I've seen more than once union member that wasn't fit to stuff vacuum, but because they were a union member, they were given multiple chances when a non-union employee would have been terminated.
Please someone tell me why Obama is there in Michigan? He needs to quit campaigning the election is over, and he needs to go to work. Oh wait a minute he likes to enjoy the freebies of his job.
My thoughts are if you have a decent job be grateful. Quit complaining. If you don't want your job I will take it.
I have been unemployed for 5 years and never once filed for unemployment. Oh I have applied and applied to various jobs until I am blue in the face. Now I clean and sell my own household stuff.
The problem with our country is that we have turned into a greedy, wasteful, and ungrateful bunch. I think we are just feeling the effects of some overdue karma.
People be grateful for what you have.
The same people who started the Civil War are the same type people who are anti-union today.
Wow, Prog1! They must be really, really old!
Hilarious.
If that's all they have, it's game over for liberals. Proof once again they are regressives, not progressives.
Oh in regards to the union. My husband non union (manager ) works with union mechanics. They are constantly filing grievances on management. They filed a grievance on my husband once for knocking a cob web off the door. They get paid for filing grievances. No wonder companies have went to overseas for their workers. Who wants to deal with that pile of junk?
The south has always been the low wage section of this country and accordingly the quality of life reflected that ie. proverty, less educated and it also has been the anti-union section of the country so you think that explains something?
Dang nab it, I can't remember what is the best selling car in America???
Shucks, now I remember, it's that there Toyota, yea that's it!!!!
Yea, and Detroit is a shining beacon of northern union state wealth, education, and success. Nice try.
I have been on both sides, union and not. It has been my finding that people blame "the other side" because they don't understand as much as they think. Without the unions we would not have gained better wages, healthcare and retirement, but on the other hand not all union people are still holding onto what the unions were started for. I have found that some members are intimidated by new members but with ever changing regulations forcing some senior members out of their jobs they have no real choice but to be intimidated by the "book knowledge" of the newer members rather than the "experience knowledge" that they have acquired. After dealing with personal differences with the union I decided that an open shop would better suit me. I just wish that we could all agree that the true "scabs" here are the half that benefit off of all of us. The half that doesn't work should have taxes or dues taken out of their checks, we pay for our healthcare & benefits, so should they. The government is the "CEO" that keeps taking from all of us, not the union or the non union companies. It would be nice for all of us to stick together and stand for what we ALL want -- FAIR PAY, FAIR BENEFITS and a place that we don't have to work at until our last dying day, but have a few years to enjoy what we've become. If we don't it won't matter because WE WILL ALL BE THE "SCABS" waiting on the monthly government check. In closing, without the non union companies there is no need for the union companies and without the union companies there is no reason for the non union companies together one greases the other wheel.
As a union member, I think that all states should be right to work...
If you don't want to belong to a union, I'm alright with that.
If you don't want to pay dues, I'm good with that too.
But, You will not have representation when it comes to a redress of greivences, nor would you receive the same compensation union members receive. You are on your own with the company. Fair enough?
There will come a day when the unions will ceases to exist, and when they are gone, America will see the sweatshop mentality return, the repeal of laws that protect workers today, and last but not least, HUGE wage cuts.
Those of you who work non-union enjoy the pay and benefits you earn today simply because there are still unions left in America.
When they are gone,(unions) what makes you think that you're going to keep the wage you're making now?
And while the repulitards continue to hammer away on the union worker's pay, they NEVER have anything to say about the millions that the business owners make. It's not so much about being competative, as it is to the fact of them needing to make MORE money.
Fact of the matter is, republitards don't like unions because they've supported Democrats. If republicans would show half as much concern for the workers as they do the wealthy, they would garner alot more of the union vote.
The need for workers to organize will never die, as long as there are those who would exploit the worker in the name of greed.
And my friends, there is definately no shortage of those people in our world today.
You need to look no further than Enron, Tyco, WorldCom, and Walmart, just to name a few.
Good rant, Silver, but the article deals with public sector unions. So how are those public sector workers being exploited in the name of greed?
Wrong, mpa.
The right to work legislation is not only directed at the public sector unions, but the private sector as well.
The argument over public sector unions, is nothing but an opening shot at all unions, mpa.
In the mind of the anti-union person, a union, is a union.
Have you not been reading the posts? Surely, you can perceive the animosity towards unions in general.
And I'm not just talking about this thread, but ANY topic concerning unions.
silverback929
Is this something like FORCING everyone to buy Insurance? Just an 'opening shot' at what else obama can MAKE us do or buy?
Well, TRO...
Your conservative SCOTUS ruled that it's constitutional, (insurance) other than that, I fail to see the coorelation between insurance, and RTW legislation, other than the fact that I've given you a chance to show your disdain for Obama.
But then again, you really don't need me for that, do you?
They ruled it a tax which made it constitutional. And yes, Obama can force us to pay taxes if he can shove them down our throats.
Again, worker conditions were continually improving before unions at the same rate they were after. Modern unions like the ones who represented the Hostess bakers don't serve their members, they serve themselves. After my first two union jobs, I always negotiated for myself and always made out better. Unions punish success and reward failure. Only losers need unions, competent people are always in demand.
As far as Hostess, it's my understanding that they went through reorganization in 2005, at which point, the union made concessions that cost workers a few hundred jobs... You aware of that?
And what makes you think that those workplace protections would hold if enough money were given to the right people to do away with protections?
They're trying to do away with certain environmental regulations as we speak.
Money talks, and bullsh!t walks, Val...
I love the way that liberals think that every brain dead 10th grade drop out should work for a union and make 100k a year.
Waitressing and dishwashing is not a career it is something you do when you are going to school to get a better education. Not everyone is college material and that is what trade schools are for. Quit rewarding laziness and let these people know that if you want to compete you have to work at it and not just expect a union to hand it to you.
But that 10th grade dropout has the opportunity to go through an apprenticeship, (4 years)and may even be responsible for the upkeep of the power plants, paper mills, and other vital industry.
He will work his azz off in different types of weather, in filth, mud, and grease, in conditions that could injure, or even kill him if he's not careful, and all of this just so you can enjoy your comfortable lives outside the boudaries of his workplace, and you think it's wrong that he could make 100k a year?
Until you've put yourself in his place, you don't have any idea what you're talking about.
BS. I worked my way through college turning wrenches in 100 degree heat. Now I have and engineering degree paid for without grants or loans. And I did it without union help.
You right wingers truly are retarded. You think the key to success is to decrease wages and eliminate benefits, including your own. You can't fix stupid!
Or perhaps the "retarded" right wingers realize that you can't over-pay your public service sector workers for 20 years, offer them lavish pensions for the next 30 - 40 years, and still remain a viable government.
See Bankrupt California cities, Detroit, Greece, etc.
No the key to success is to turn off the TV pick up a book, educate yourself and strive to be better. Not become a Liberal sheep and vote for other people to take care of you with food stamps and subsidized housing.
"take care of you with food stamps and subsidized housing."___________________
That's accurately describes a lot of Walmart "associates". Over 12,000 Walmart workers in Florida receive government assistance.
"No the key to success is to turn off the TV pick up a book, educate yourself and strive to be better"___________
How many of you have read The Jungle, by Upton Sinclair? Or Working, by Studs Terkel?
JCC@FL
Take a Guess how many of our MILITRAY MEMBERS are on assistance?
So your Point is?????
What do you know of the Homestead strike? The Battle of Blair Mountain? Come on, tell us about your vast knowledge of labor history in the United States.
Doubtful that he knows any of that, JCC...
Maybe he should read up on the events that led to the 'Matewan Massacre'.
Most of these republitards no nothing of the labor struggles of the past, but they'll definately find out about it when the past comes back around.
And when it does, my bet is they'll be company thugs, and snitches.
And at the same time lets ignore union fascism, intimidation, corruption, violence, destruction, vandalism, etc. Jimmy Hoffa ring a bell?
Again, I've worked union jobs. If my company went union I'd fire the whole lot.
What did you do for the union, and where?
Unionized the undocumented workers and pay them Union scale...
Deport all non rich, anti Union Republicans to China and India...
John, good idea. In fact, China and India are the utopian nonunion paradise these right wingers seem to love. Why not self deport?
JCC@FL and John Odd Owl
and then where would obama find the funds to feed and house all of you?
"Deport all non rich, anti Union Republicans to China and India..."
Spoken like a true fascist.
Bingo!!! Takes one to know one, eh Phil? What a hypocrite.
Unions were (notice I said WERE) a great thing at one time. They helped establish a reasonable work week, get child labor laws passed, get rid of sweatshops, etc. BUT, their time has come and gone. All they do now is hold companies hostage until they agree to their, ofttimes, ridiculous demands (See Baker's Union fiasco). One of my sons and my son-in-law have been in unions and despise them for what they are - money makers for those that run them - period.
What's the difference between a union official making money, and one of your corporate heroes making money?
You think that they should work for free?
Non rich, anti Union Republicans probably descended from the 95% of pro slavery Confederates, who couldn't afford to own any Slaves... They're stuck on stupid and you can't fix stupid... Please self-deport...
Is that what they teach you at rachael madcow U???
If you don't want to pay union dues, don't. Don't apply to work at a company that has a closed shop. If you like RTW so well, move to a state that is RTW. As the ad says, "You are free to move about the country". If you want to dwell at the bottom, fine. Don't try to drag me down with you.
You mean somewhere other than the 24 RTW states???
Ole Jeff Davis self deported to Mexico when President Abraham Lincoln sent those Black Federal Troops after him...