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Subscribe to RSSWith three weeks to go to avoid the fiscal cliff, President Barack Obama will travel to a Detroit auto plan and attempt to sell his plan to raise taxes on the top two percent of Americans.
The “fiscal cliff” end game… If there’s going to be a deal, Obama, Boehner, and Congress need to start the heavy lifting ASAP… Kristol vs. the Wall Street Journal on caving on the tax rates… Motoring! Obama delivers remarks at 2:00 pm ET at a Detroit Diesel plant in Redford, MI… And in Michigan, the president will set foot in the state featuring the nation’s latest labor battle… The hits keep on coming for Susan Rice… The upcoming immigration push… Hillary and 2016… And meet Markwayne Mullen.
*** The end game: We’ve told you that the last couple of weeks in Washington’s fiscal debate have mostly been about P.R. and posturing. Like a student in college or a reporter working in the news business, the real work in Congress typically doesn’t happen until there’s a real deadline that’s rapidly approaching. Well, we’ve now entered that deadline phase in the negotiations between President Obama and House Speaker John Boehner. If the plan is to get something passed by Friday, Dec. 21 (right before the Christmas holiday), then the legislation has to be written by Dec. 18. And that means that Obama and Boehner must reach an agreement by Dec. 14-15, if there’s going to be a deal. So the time for posturing and P.R. is over. This week, we’ve reached the phase where both sides will begin rolling up their sleeves to do the heavy negotiating. Both Obama and Boehner know this, which is why they did meet behind closed doors yesterday. The question now is: Will there be a BIG deal that includes serious entitlement hits in addition to major tax reform? Or will it be JUST taxes and a punt until the debt ceiling? There’s not much of an “in between” at this point.
Chip Somodevilla / Getty Images
Speaker of the House John Boehner, R-Ohio, talks with reporters outside his office in the Capitol Dec. 7, 2012 in Washington, DC.
*** Kristol vs. the Wall Street Journal: In addition to yesterday’s news that the president and the speaker met, Sen. Bob Corker (R-TN) became the latest GOP lawmaker to suggest that Republicans acquiesce on raising tax rates on the wealthy to get entitlement cuts. And that’s a stance the Wall Street Journal’s editorial page today criticizes. “So it's a shame that Republicans are playing into Mr. Obama's hands, negotiating in public among themselves, prematurely giving up on the tax issue and undermining House Speaker John Boehner in the process. Mr. Obama isn't going to blink on the budget if he thinks Republicans are going to blink first, and so far the emerging GOP position seems to be to surrender on taxes first and hope Mr. Obama will have mercy on them later on entitlements.” But the Weekly Standard’s Bill Kristol hits back at the Journal. “Most Republicans will go along soon after January 1 with what will now be the Democrats' tax cutting agenda. If the House Republicans now follow the Wall Street Journal editors over the cliff, the only effect, I'm afraid, will be to turn a manageable tactical retreat in December into a panicked strategic rout in January.” There is good news for Boehner in all of this: The lack of consensus among conservatives gives Boehner more running room to cut the deal he thinks is best, rather than over-worrying about specific conservative constituencies. Remember, the House GOP leadership won’t say it publicly, but they’ve signaled privately that under the RIGHT circumstance, they’d go to the floor of the House with less than a majority of the majority.
Former Michigan Republican Governor John Engler, who is the president of the business roundtable, joins The Daily Rundown's Chuck Todd to talk about President Barack Obama's trip the Michigan, the fiscal cliff, and Michigan's 'right to work' law.
*** Motoring! Your White House fiscal-cliff photo-op of the day takes place in Michigan, where the president delivers remarks at a Daimler Detroit Diesel plant at 2:00 pm ET in Redford. Per the Detroit Free Press, Daimler, which owns Detroit Diesel, is announcing “a new investment to expand U.S. production and jobs... The White House said the investment is expected to be $100 million or more and, with it, Daimler Trucks North America will become the first heavy-duty vehicle equipment manufacturer on the continent to build a fully integrated powertrain from on production facility.” So today’s even will be a mixture of the fiscal cliff and this Daimler news.
*** Michigan’s labor battle: Yet when Obama visits Michigan, he’ll be setting foot in the state featuring the nation’s latest labor battle. “With Michigan lawmakers poised Tuesday to give final passage of right-to-work legislation, unions and their supporters plan to mass outside the Capitol that day as part of a last-ditch bid to derail the fast-moving campaign to limit labor's power,” the Detroit News says. “If lawmakers reconcile the bills and pass a final version Tuesday — as expected — Gov. Rick Snyder has said he will sign it, making Michigan the 24th right-to-work state and dealing a major blow to organized labor in one of its traditional strongholds.” Out of all the new Republican governors who were elected in 2010, Michigan’s Rick Snyder was always viewed as the least ideological of the bunch. So when Scott Walker in Wisconsin, John Kasich in Ohio, or Rick Scott in Florida were pursuing controversial changes and legislation and confronting the labor movement, Snyder -- who calls himself “one tough nerd” -- stayed away from the ideological wars and focused on the economy. In fact, he even appeared to support Obama’s auto bailout. But now the Michigan governor finds himself knee deep in the same kind of controversy we saw in Wisconsin and Ohio. By the way, while we do expect Snyder to greet the president at the airport, don’t expect to see Snyder with the president at the Chrysler event because it’s taking place at a UAW facility.
*** Hits keep coming for Rice: It’s no longer Benghazi, or even the Keystone XL Pipeline. Critics of Susan Rice are now pointing to the Obama administration’s failure to intervene in the atrocities in the Democratic Republic of Congo. The New York Times: “Specifically, these critics — who include officials of human rights organizations and United Nations diplomats — say the administration has not put enough pressure on Rwanda’s president, Paul Kagame, to end his support for the rebel movement whose recent capture of the strategic city of Goma in Congo set off a national crisis in a country that has already lost more than three million people in more than a decade of fighting. Rwanda’s support is seen as vital to the rebel group, known as M23.” And the Times reports that Rice has been viewed as shielding Kagame. And then there’s a New York Times op-ed from journalist Salem Solomon, who accuses Rice of showing “a surprising and unsettling sympathy for Africa’s despots.” This is the problem for Rice as long as President Obama doesn’t officially appoint her (or John Kerry) to fill the secretary of state position: She’s dangling like a piñata for critics to whack, without an official campaign to defend her. But with the fiscal cliff taking up more and more time and this secretary of state issue becoming such a headache for the administration, there’s a very real chance the president doesn’t announce any new cabinet members until AFTER the new year.
*** The upcoming immigration push: Over the weekend, the Los Angeles Times noted that the Obama White House is preparing for a big push on comprehensive immigration reform after the “fiscal cliff” negotiations end. “Senior White House advisors plan to launch a social media blitz in January, and expect to tap the same organizations and unions that helped get a record number of Latino voters to reelect the president. Cabinet secretaries are preparing to make the case for how changes in immigration laws could benefit businesses, education, healthcare and public safety. Congressional committees could hold hearings on immigration legislation as soon as late January or early February.” More: “Democratic strategists believe there is only a narrow window at the beginning of the year to get an initiative launched in Congress, before lawmakers begin to turn their attention to the next election cycle and are less likely to take a risky vote on a controversial bill.”
*** Hillary and 2016: On Sunday, the New York Times ran a “Hillary 2016” story, and we all should prepare for these kind of stories once a month until she decides to run (or not) for president. “Right now, aides and friends say, Hillary Rodham Clinton’s plan looks like this: exit the State Department shortly after Inauguration Day and then seclude herself to rest and reflect on what she wants to do for the next few years. Those who have invited her for 2013 engagements have been told not to even ask again until April or May.” The Times does make this important point: If she does want to keep the presidential door open, her options are limited. “The more serious she is about 2016, the less she can do — no frank, seen-it-all memoir; no clients, commissions or controversial positions that could prove problematic. She will be under heavy scrutiny even by Clinton standards, discovering what it means to be a supposedly private citizen in the age of Twitter. With the election four years away — a political eon — she will have to tend and protect her popularity, and she may find herself in a cushy kind of limbo, unable to make many decisions about her life until she makes the big one about another White House try.”
*** Meet Markwayne Mullin: NBC’s Carrie Dann has profiled 10 new members to watch in the next Congress. Today’s profile: Markwayne Mullen. When his father's illness forced Mullin to quit college and take over the family plumbing business, the 20-year-old and his wife turned a flailing enterprise into a small eastern Oklahoma empire. Mullin, now 35, won the House seat vacated by retiring Rep. Dan Boren, running under the banner "A rancher. A businessman. Not a politician!" The Tulsa native -- a social conservative who vehemently opposes "amnesty" proposals -- has promised to take a no-frills attitude to the halls of Congress. Casually dressed on election night, he joked with supporters that he defied his campaign staff's request that he wear a suit to deliver his victory speech. "They got me this far, and boots are going to take me all the way there and bring me all the way back" from Washington, he said.
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will there be coal for Christmas?
or can we buy our loved ones a few presents this year, without fear of our taxes going up for New Years?
Happy Holidays everyone!
Kirk: (clapping his hands) Okay! Everyone please sit down and we’ll get started with our first meeting of the “Proponents Of Maximizing Political Opportunities Utilizing Stratagems Against Socialist Scumbags Everywhere Simultaneously”.
Geo: (wrinkling his brow) Where the #$*& did that name come from?
Caesar Augustus: (beginning to write it down) It’s pretty long. Can’t we shorten it?
Kirk: (proudly) I made it up. And no, we can’t shorten it. We need to overwhelm the Libs with a blizzard of words. (chuckling) Have you ever read my stream of consciousness posts? Confuses the hell out of them. Why sometimes even I get—
Jim-1455434: There’s no numbers in our club’s name! We’ve got to have numbers! I’m a CPA! There’s no meaning without numbers!
Albany Joe: Pssst! Hey, numbers guy! I’ve got a stock I want to sell you. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Caesar Augustus: (still writing) U-n-i-t-e . . .
Jim-1455434: (petulant) Nobody ever listens to me.
Albany Joe: About that smoked salmon I brought tonight—there’s only enough for me. HAHAHHAHAHAHA!
Geo: Those $#*!@ Libs on MSN #$@%#$ every @#*^% so why should we #*&$^%@ care?
Kirk: I’m listening to you, CPA guy, but we can’t—
Albany Joe: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Kirk: For the love of God, will you stop that inane laughing!
Geo: Well, #$*&@^ and $*@@*!
Albany Joe: (frowning suddenly) Anyone seen that new sitcom on Fox? There’s no laugh track. How are you supposed to know which parts are funny?
Caesar August: (licking the tip of his lead pencil and continuing to write) A-g-a-i . . .
Geo: $%$&*!
Jim-1455434: I want to be club Treasurer.
Albany Joe: Good luck with that! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Kirk: Listen up! I was thinking of inviting 1funnygirl to join us.
Geo: @#$*%@()#*+^$#!!!!
Joe Albany: (frowning) We don’t need another humorist.
Jim-1455434: (scowling) Girls don’t do math.
Kirk: Com’on, fellows! It’s time we gave women an equal voice.
Joe Albany: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Caesar Augustus: (finishing, murmurs) Okay, let’s see if we can shorten this thing to a catchy acronym. . . . (bolts upright) Uh-oh. We’ve got a problem, Houston.
**stands and applauds**
Great way to start the week, Jack!
The people have spoken on November 6, time to end government by GOPigs who have been sold out to corporate pigs.
Weeee Jack, thanks, great.
Absolutely LOVE this! Thanks for a great start to the day!
Oh dear, Jack has a hammer in hand and certain members of the fraternity look like nails.
If nominated for Secretary of State by President Obama, for goodness sake confirm her. See's obviously the most qualified nominee in Washington. The Repugs just want someone else (Kerry) for Political reasons.
Let's quit playing games like little children and get down to taking care of the Nations business.
To borrow a phrase from Albanee Joey (who was one of the three people here in NY who actually voted for Caarl Paalidino):
If the GOP refuses to compromise, then the voters will throw more RepubliCONs out in November 2014, Speaker Boehner will be mo more...castrated.
Republicans Want a Soft Landing. The GOPTP has done nothing but obstruct legislation for four years-- legislation that would have created jobs, helped the American people, kept states from having to make draconian cuts which then added to the unemployment problem as well as slow economic growth. The party built its own untenable positions on taxes, medicare and social security yet now they feel the democrats should reward them for putting the GOP Party First before Country. Democrats do not owe the GOPTP a soft place to land, are not obligated to provide something that makes the republicans feel good. Sorry, GOPTP, your party and Grove Norquist own your predicament--between a rock and a hard place.
The democrats do not have to provide a soft place for republicans to land. Either the GOPTP House passes legislation to extend the tax cuts for 98% of the people and not for the richest 2% or everything expires, and the republican party takes the blame. It is the GOPTP's choice on where they land. I believe in compromise by both sides but cannot find an ounce of sympathy for the GOPTP because they made their obstructionist choices in 2009 and again in 2011.
If anyone needs proof of just how obstructionist the GOPTP has become these past four years, watch the clip of Senator Mitch McConnell request a vote on his own bill, then promptly filibuster his own bill. Priceless.
You see it repeatedly in these threads - Pretenders telling us how it REALLY is. But, they're pretenders - liars, when you cut through the niceties. Maybe it's the train wreck syndrome. You just have to watch/read. You shake your head and ask yourself how the writer could possibly imagine we believe what he is saying is true.
"Well, I own a small business. I make $250,000 and pay 51% in taxes." That is simply untrue, but there's a vast number of Americans who desperately want this to be true. It provides empirical justification for hating the socialist, commie, Marxist, business-hating, anti-capitalist guy in the White House. The zombies are more than pleased to eat up this putrid nonsense.
But here's the truth. Our tax system is progressive. If you're married, you don't even hit the current 35% tax on income until you make $250,000 - NET. Every dime less than that is taxed at a lower rate. You aren't even close to paying 35%. Add on FICA, FICA med, and FUTA, and if your self-employed, you can almost double that, it's still less than 15%. Most of that tax disappears after you make a bit more than $110,000. Put them all together and you're still in the 30+% range. You can check all this simply by typing "income tax withholding" in a search block. Add state and local, and you might crack a bit more than 40%.
It's impossible to conclude that these people are nothing more than liars. What's particularly galling, is that they tell you these lies in the firm belief that you are a libbie, a libtard, or a "typical liberal", and are incapable of understanding numbers. Well, enough is enough. We really do get it. It's time to call out the liars, put the truth out there, and if they continue, ignore them. You know who they are.
To that end, I share with you what I found to be the most irritating meme of the past election. It was a lie, a dismembering of the truth, and its reconstruction that was a Frankensteinian monster of pure fiction and insanity. It was the "you didn't do that" lie perpetrated and propagated by right-wing nuts and their propaganda machines. That meme betrayed a one-dimensional understanding of reality. Every time Republicans would trot out the perfect example of someone who created their own success "ALL BY MYSELF", we discovered this guy was living in Warpo-World. He could create his miraculous business without customers, without roads, without communication, well......without anything. It's a lie.
It is time to put the monster lies in the ground. Here's a fantastic link that will open your eyes to a world of wonder, and to the truth that no one does anything alone. Please take a few minutes to watch this fabulous piece, "I, Pencil". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6IFPRaO5I0
We should take a few moments each and every day to remind ourselves that we live in a marvelous time, in a marvelous world. No, we can't do this alone.
The GOP has to compromise. The GOP should not touch social security and medicare. It is especially wrong to cut social security and Medicare when the babyboomers have been retiring in overwhelming numbers, giving a true test to these 2 immensely successful government-run programs.
These two programs have already suffered (1) lower contributions by employers and (2) values loss in this recession which was partly caused by GOP's wrong-headed supply side and trickle-down economics.
If the GOP doesn't change its wrong-headed approach, We the Voters will ... End GOP As We Know It. Cutting defense spending and closing tax loopholes will be enough.
Bad Posture
From the article above:
Finally!
Now that the music has stopped, and all the Congressboys have all found a seat, we can get the deal that President Obama has proposed from the beginning.
In other news…
LOL. Remember, before the election, when Tea Baggers were blaming the President for high gas prices?
Thanks to President Obama, gas prices are coming down for nine straight weeks for over 46 cents per gallon!!!
LM%AO!!!
Salud
Jack in Portsmouth:
If memory serves, you first introduced yourself with a smashingly funny piece. This was even better. What's left of my tummy muscles are feeling pain. Might we expect more of this grand laughter-inducing truth......Say, every other Monday or something?
Now that's what HAHAHAHAHA is really all about.
Republicans, and the Wall Street Journal editorial board, have apparently lost all sense of how things are playing in Peoria.
To those of us outside the NY financial district, it looks like House Republicans are risking our nation's economic recovery for the sake of protecting the profits of the top 1%.
I understand there are some small businesses that get taxed the same as individuals making over $250,000, but you can't tell me there aren't tax lawyers that can't whittle down the amt of tax those small-businesspeople will owe, with all the deductions businesses can take, at least for now. It doesn't look like Republicans are standing up for these guys, who, after all, will need Medicare and Social Security when they retire. Republicans are even threatening their deductions. Do the Republicans realize how BAD they look to the average voter? Apparently not.
According to everyone on the Meet The Press round table yesterday, if the country goes off the fiscal cliff and plunges into another recession, Obama will be the one that gets the blame. Maybe that fact resonated with Obama. Obama supporters feel compromise is giving the president what he wants, and yet when that happened during the last debt deal he up and moved the goalpost. So Obama already has a resume that says he cannot be trusted to negotiate in good faith, and you cannot take him at his word or go on a handshake. You reap what you sow. But what is really funny is that everything associated with going off the fiscal cliff, raising taxes, defense cuts, are exactly what Democrats want. So the only reason Democrats will ever compromise, is if they feel they will get blamed for the results.
'Tis the Season to give to our 1% friends so they can go on with their Lavish life Styles, GOP Tea Vulture plan protecting the Mega rich !!!!!!!!!!!!
Jack in Portsmouth-
Thanks for the laugh!
Salud
Jack, Portsmouth. Cheers for a classic summation of a certain group of right-wing posters; I'm still laughing! Oddly enough, that is exactly how the GOPTPers in Congress and the FOX pundits sound these days. Their acronym says it all, no wonder Caesar said they have a problem.
We should just let the Bush tax cuts expire for EVERYONE. Then they will return to the Clinton era tax rates when everyone said they were 'fair'.
The beauty is that it only requires the President and Congress to do what they do best - NOTHING. The changes are automatic.
And we should let the spending cuts take place as well - It's time to reign in the wild spending spree.
I did an analysis of Obama's 2013 Budget projections over the next 10 years and the whole Deficit problem can be summed up in one simple issue - Heath care spending. The total Deficit from Medicare and Medicaid over 10 years is projected to be over $8 Trillion, while the TOTAL Budget Deficit for EVERYTHING is only projected to be about $6.5 Trillion.
Obamacare is far more expensive to the taxpayers than is being reported.
They already know there's no avoiding this fiasco. What they're trying to figure out is how to conserve for the upper wealthiest class so that the middle class will get to shoulder the brunt. The taxman cometh soon- get ready to pay up!
TomasGrande "Thanks to President Obama, gas prices are coming down for nine straight weeks for over 46 cents per gallon!!!"
It's still about $3.50 per gallon in California. It averaged only $1.84 when Obama took office.
What was it we're supposed to 'thank' Obama for again?
I agree, we need to cut entitlements. No more subsidies for Multi-Billion Dollar Corporations. And make them pay decently, cheap bastards.
So sorry, but the GOP is not going away and your wish for the single socialist party isn't going to happen
Hurry up Washington! I'm not Christmas shopping until you get this done! I don't want to spend my Christmas money if I'm going to need it for taxes!
Amy.... According to this CNBC poll, it's not the republicans nor the democrats people will blame, it's Government period!!
That's right, 52% blame both sides equally.
One more thing to consider, if you want to know who is protecting big business, you need to look no furter than Barack Obama. You guys are so against corporatations, and think they should pay more. Sounds good right? Obama has proposed to Reduce the rates for corporations to 28%.
Let's take a closer look at that $250,000 mark. What does Obama want to do? He wants to raise the rates on the top 2% of the nation. Sounds good right? Except, Obama wants to limit NO deductions (or as your side falsely calls them "loopholes"). So what does this mean? It means those who had their tax rates increased will just find something else to deduct, making that tax increase largely irrelevant. So that $80 Billion per year tax increase will likely be less, as that amount will NOT be guaranteed.
Meanwhile, the Republicans offered a plan that would guarantee atleast that $80 Billion, by limiting deductions. By limiting deductions at $50,000, everyone making less than $250,000 will continue to be able to deduct everything they deduct right now, only those making more than that will no longer be able to deduct more than $50,000 when they do their taxes. So obviously, when you cap deductions, there will be no "loopholes", as you like to call them, for the rich to be able to reduce the amount they pay. This will raise the $80 Billion per year, and guarantee it.
If Obama was serious about settling this thing, he would have at very least taken this portion of the Republican offer, and used it to advance negotiations. He didn't, because he's not out to make a deal. Obama wants us to go over the cliff, it's how he gets his tax rates higher, it's how he's going to get higher taxes out of the middle class, all the while blaming the republicans, and you on the left will eat it up. Sure there will then be a tax reduction on the middle class, after the cliff, but when all is said and done, the middle class will be paying more than they are today!!!
When you want to blame the republicans, you might want to ask yourself, who is the real one looking out for the rich??? It looks like Obama to me!!!
David,
Well, when you're on the dole like I am, sitting around waiting for the check to arrive, buying Twinkies with Food Stamps and watching TV all day, it's difficult to get motivated, know what I mean? Jeez! Give a poor Lib a break!
And during Bush's tenure gas went to $4.56 per gallon, wonder why it went down to $1.80 during Bush's tenure?
Roy Wilson-
1. Restoring America back to being respected around the world.
2. Restoring our economy from the disastrous Bush years.
3. Controlling outrageous health care costs with Obamacare.
4. Selecting a Hispanic woman to the Supreme Court.
to name a few.
Have a great day, Roy.
Salud
Roy Roy Roy, now you're proclaiming to be a budget analysis? Be honest you haven't even seen President Obama's 2013 budget proposal. You're making this up just to slam the ACA. I really thought these big lies would stop after the election, guess not. Roy, just another republican hack.
Something very strange is going on in the Cayman's & Bermuda's ??????????????????
(Cut to FoxTrotsky, chest heaving, tears streaming down face. He responds to a voice off-camera:)
"What's that? No, darling, I didn't start smoking reefer just because it's legal now... it's this thing I just read on First Read."
(FoxTrotsky looks around kitchen; sees cats regarding him with suspicion, Pugs with concern.)
"Man, you guys don't know what you're missing. I can't wait for Joe in the Abyss to turn up. BWAH-HAH-HAH! Freaking PRICELESS, Jack!"
(FoxTrotsky knocks coffee off table with his elbow, laughing helplessly. Fade to black.)
Yes, Obama is protecting big business. Must be why BOTH parties are convinced that only Millionaires are intelligent enough to run for office. And then when "We The People" get screwed, it's because we were so damn smart for letting Millionaires decide our interests of average household incomes. Buh Duh!
Thomas,
Roy Wilson must have been sleeping the past 12 years ... He apparently comes from the school of
" Taxing the top 2% less will create Jobs ...here in America"
Well Roy Wilson.,. It didn't work.
....and now we have an infrastructure that is falling apart... And now lets create some jobs here in the US and repair our decaying roads, bridges, schools, electrical grids etc
If she was the best person for the job why does her ethnic background or gender matter?
I don't know (or care) what side of the aisle you are on but we don't need the two major political parties playing chicken with our country and economy. It is three weeks before the end of the year, we have businesses that don't know yet what their taxes will be in only 3 weeks, we have payroll software companies scrambling because they don't know yet what the payroll taxes will be in only three weeks, and so on.
The solution is frustrating but simple: Extend the current rates 6 months and make it a priority that the new Congress in January take this up. We don't need either party trying to use a 3 week requirement as a way to push through something in the short run that will be damaging to the country. We don't need the two parties trying to tell us that "something" is better than nothing. Sorry, we don't want "something". We want an intelligent and rational LONG-TERM solution. We don't just "do something" to "do something". THAT is the surest way of creating a catastrophe.
So we extend 6 months or a year to give our businesses and consumers at least SOME certainty over the next year. Extend the current rates and make it a pact that NOTHING else is discussed on the House or Senate floors next year UNTIL this is done. Until a compromise is completed.
I am tired of our politicians working for what is best for THEM rather than what is best for US!!
Pigotry: (#1.3)
The people did indeed speak on November 6; they elected 242 GOP representatoves to the House, to only 193 Democrats.
TheDougler960608
Are these the same pollsters who told you Mitt Romney was going to win?
CNBC.......did you read my post?
I don't remember NBC ever being a right leaning organization.
Thanks for the lack of response to the rest of my post.
Tells me everything I need to know.
ProBusiness
Your suggestion to kick this down the road again made me cringe, but you may be right. The uncertainty is really putting a damper on things.
because this is the far left agenda, separate but equal.
Alan, NJ
Alan, you have the wherewithal to answer that, and the wherewithal not to ask it. Not a good start to the week for you.
I see the President's approval rating is already dropping from the election high. Who knows whether that will continue and that it will settle where it's been for the the last two years, basically 47% / 47%. However, what I find depressing is why anybody thinks that the next 4 years will be any different from the last 4 years. The same players are in the same positions.
The status quo rules.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_obama_job_approval-1044.html
Isnt acronym the group that stole this election according to 49% of repubs?
Do Republicans Really Believe That ACORN Stole The Election? - The Data Port
Seriously funny post!
Only because I do NOT believe in identity politics. Can we expect that the next SC nominee to be a left-handed disabled trans-gender Muslim Asian?
How about some diversity and they didn't go to Harvard?
Mr. President please do the smart thing and Sequester Congress..... Do not allow the House nor Senate to go home until this issue is resolved..... That means NO going home tonight, tomorrow night, over the weekend or for the Holidays..... Stand firm on your request after all they really are not that unreasonable..... If you are going to do any cuts to entitlements then lets start with Congress - both sides are really getting way too much in the way of both Pay & Benefits, so if we are going to take any kind of hit let them lead by example.....
Spider lotsanumbers:
I know you're a right-wing garbage spewer, and you don't answer responses to your posts, but what the hell.
You flatly refuse to grasp, or can't grasp the vote for Representatives. Congressional districts were gerrymandered by Republicans, thanks to the piss-poor turnout of Democrats in 2010. No one with a lick of sense needs a court decision to see that. You can look at the maps. In addition, votes for Democrats exceeded votes cast for Republicans for House seats. In spite of that, Democrats picked up seats in BOTH houses of Congress AND held the Presidency. That's empirically demonstrable fact.
Facts.
TomasGrande: What are we thankful for Obama again? And you say?
1) Restoring America being respected: Really? What Bizarro land do YOU live in? America is laughed at around the world. Countries no longer respect us. We have Korea testing long range missiles because they know Obama won't do anything. We have our consulate attacked and four U.S. citizens murdered and Obama STILL won't tell us why he lied to the American people that is was caused by a video. Syria is attacking and killing its own citizens and willing to do so because they know America is weak and won't do anything. And LASTLY we have China, that's right CHINA!!, telling us that America needs to be smarter about our debt and our economy. CHINA is telling us our economy is collapsing. CHINA!! I don't know about you but we are now LEAST respected around the world since Jimmy Carter.
2) Restoring our economy: Again, what Bizarro world do you live in? We have a president that is now the proud title owner as the WORST economic recovery in U.S. history. 2% GDP is now being sold as the "new norm". It is pathetic. And is the reason why Obama has the title as WORST economic recovery. We are now told that nearly 8% unemployment is "moving in the right direction" and the ONLY way the unemployment rate has dropped over the last year is because of people LEAVING the work force. We have the LOWEST labor participation rate since the 1970's. Highest percent of people on Welfare since the 70's. Highest percent of people on Food Stamps since the program was started. This president in four years has succeeded in creating the WORST economic recovery in U.S. history with all indications it will get worse.
3)Controlling health care costs: And how in the world can you SAY that before it is even implemented? Do you know projected health care costs are to double next year? We have doctors already deciding to leave the practice. We have over 5% taxes that will increase starting January and hit the businesses and consumers severely. And that is ABOVE the 20% health premiums that will be seen next year. So don't be naive and don't repeat "talking points". To say ObamaCare has reduced costs BEFORE it has even been implemented is irresponsible and ill advised. Also proves you do not think for yourself but simply repeat things without any rational analysis or thought.
4) Selecting a Hispanic woman to the Supreme Court: And??? What the heck is THAT supposed to mean? Was that intended to be a rational thought? Even though Obama has significantly weakened this country economically and respect you want his selecting a Hispanic woman to be his only accomplishment? BTW, George W. Bush was the first president to nominate an African-American person to Secretary of State (Colin Powell). Are you going to praise George W. Bush for that? And when Colin Powell left George W. Bush was the first to nominate an African American WOMAN to Secretary of State (Condoleeza Rice). Should Bush's legacy be that? And the first WOMAN to the Supreme Court was Sandra Day O'Conner nominated by Ronald Reagan. Interesting - isn't it?
So if your ONLY "success" is that Obama nominated a Hispanic woman to the Supreme Court that means Obama has been one of the WORST presidents in U.S. history and will be known as the president that promised to fix an economy but actually made it worse over an 8 year period.
Hey, Itsy Betsy spider-737231 of (#1.37)
Did you lose 5 house seats last month, including Tea Loonies Allen West and Deadbeat dad Joe Walsh? Did you fail to win senate majority with Todd - the legi rape - akin and Richard - God-bless rape - Mourdock? Did you lose Scott Brown who has tried to come in again through the back door with Kerry exit. Did you lost more senate seat????
Just asking.
Jack: I have little idea of what your post was about. It was still funny. Should I remove those clowns from my ignore list?
Alan, NJ
I can sympathize with your belief and can only hope that in the future this is not a consideration, but the world is far from being there. Glass ceilings need to be broken through and that takes politics. It was not so long ago that the best was not a white male and therefor was never considered. Like it or not, the old clubs still exist.
Nice spin, but it won't work.....
All the Republicons, Tea Loonies and their Supporters should get out and go on a hunting trip with Dick Cheney for a Better America !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No Sh*t Sherlock. Obama's been saying that for years. Perhaps that's why he tackled health care first, but once more, Republicans can't look at what's best for the country and want to defeat any legislation the President proposes, rather than offering constructive ideas to rain in health care costs for everyone.
In the 2010 election, more than 10,000,000 more people voted, than in 2006. The biggest jump between midterm elections dating back to at least 1960. And the largest percentage of voters since the 1994 mid term election.
But I guess the nation wasn't making a statement then right?
www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0781453.html
True, but in the case of the SC that club is Harvard (and a little bit of Yale).
Yeah... what a great way to start the week... making fun of those you disagree with... calling them names... giggling like a schoolgirl.
What a great way to start the week. Certainly much better than showing respect or encouraging cooperation.
What a great way to start the week.
Just out of curiosity, how many people on this post actually know that the renewed NDAA law has provisions that make it legal for the government to use NewsMedia for propaganda purposes? And yes, MSNBC/ NBC and CNN are left leaning, while Fox and Bloomburg are right leaning. Both use false propaganda already in their news articles.
http://theintelhub.com/2012/05/22/ndaa-2013-congress-approves-domestic-deceptive-propaganda/
ProBusiness, now the Republicans want to kick the can down the road? No, we can't do that, unless you only want to extend the middle class tax cuts, the payroll tax holiday and extend unemployment benefits.
We can do THAT.
Alan, NJ-
Perhaps if I said "Selecting
aThe FIRST Hispanic woman to the Supreme Court" that would have been more towards your liking?Unfortuantly, Alan, in a predominantly white-male driven society, pointing out a persons' gender or ethinc background is the reality.
Next time you fill out an application for something, may I suggest you check "Other" for gender and "Other" for race if you are that sensitive.
Salud
David Walker: If you are going to spew your left-wing ideology at least be honest about both your position and the position of those on the right.
You criticized a post above claiming someone who states they make $250,000 a year and paying 51% in taxes is lying. Then rant on about how impossible it is with our progressive income tax system. But there is the misrepresentation and not sure if you did it intentionally or just wasn't able to intellectually make the connection.
When a person states they make $250,000 a year and pay 51% they were NOT speaking of only income tax. You are correct in your analysis IF the reference to 51% was income taxes alone. But THAT is not what was stated. They stated 51% in taxes - meaning TOTAL!! Again, not sure if you meant to intentionally mislead others in this thread - but you did.
Those who make more than $250,000 a year pay on average over 20% in income taxes (2009 IRS data - the last full year where specific data was summarized). So you are correct there. But the 51% claim is for TOTAL taxes so now lets add payroll taxes, state income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, excise taxes, gas taxes, etc.
The point being made is when ALL taxes are added together someone making $250,000 could be paying out over 50% in taxes. The question now becomes what is "fair". What is "equitable". You see for the liberal philosophy to work they must mislead the people to believe the "rich" don't pay enough in taxes. So what is "fair"? Do you think taking 50% of someone's income is fair? Of course not. No rational human being would think it "fair" to take 50% or more of someone's income.
So liberals must mislead the uninformed (I think intentionally) that the "rich" pay much much less actually stating (and I have seen it in these threads) that the "rich" pay as little as 10%. That's nonsense. But for your agenda to work that lie must be stated.
So when someone says they make $250,000 a year and pay 51% you MUST immediately try to discredit otherwise the people would know the truth and start to realize the "rich" DO pay their fair share. In fact it can be argued they pay much MORE than their fair share. But that won't work for your argument and so you intentionally mislead. But those of us that are rational and intelligent understand your misleading statements. The rest of the people are liberals and not smart enough to see the difference.
Dear (insert name of anyone with their head up their "you know what"),
The notion that we can balance a budget without reforming entitlements and cutting spending, on nearly everything across the board, is moronic. If you taxed the rich at a rate of 100% it wouldn't put a dent in the debt. This country is insolvent. I know no one wants to hear that, but we are in a fiscal nose dive that taxing the rich can not stop. Not even close. The people have spoken on Nov 6 and unfortunately that same ignorance is going to drive the bus over the cliff. It is not the Dems fault or the GOP's fault. They have both done their damage. This time it is our fault that we have elected a president who thinks the way out of a financial nightmare is borrowing and spending more money. Now we deserve what we get.
Jack,
Great way to start my morning reading on First Read! Thanks for that! Fox, loved your comment and hope your coffee didn't hit the pugs or the cat!
.... According to this CNBC poll, it's not the republicans nor the democrats people will blame, it's Government period!!
Quoting a business Channel on a proposal that affects most of the people who watch it is as idiotic as asking an animal how the feel about todays weather,
Ever watch this?
"Lawrence "Larry" Kudlow is an American economist, television personality, and newspaper columnist. He is the host of CNBC's The Kudlow Report" Cnbc is the FOX news of business reporting. Most real surveys over whemingly blame Republicans.
Probusiness: Biased much. China criticized us soundly under Bush numerous times and several embassies were attacked. When Bush left office 8 of 12 of our closest allies said they preferred Obama over Bush. Bush was despised by most of the world. Your indication that civil wars happen because a democrat is president as if they never happen because the world trembles with a republican as president simply makes you appear as a fool.
For all you Clowns that put Carter down, take a good look in your mirror before you put someone down - You couldn't polish his shoe's !!!!
After Jimmy Carter's term he did more than any President in history to go out of his way to help Americans in need, The Carter family has my fullest respect !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@Breadex
So looking at a financial outlets poll of the view of american people about a topic regarding the economics and fiscal well being of the country is Idiotic?
Considering the network leans to the left?
Amazing Bread, absolutely Amazing. You guys will stop at nothing to make excuses.
Again, the lack of a response to the rest of my post, tells me everything I need to know about you.
Maybe the president should stop flying all over the place... Detroit was bailed out once and does not deserve a second chance (he's going there this week) PLUS everytime ANY president flies it costs approx $3,000 a min..... that is a LOT of taxes being paid by small business...
What we have forgot here is the Bush tax cuts wer proposed under the guise that cutting rich peoples taxes would somhow affect a positive job groth and were only passed on the idea if it did not work they would be rescinded in 10 years. That failed and yet they were given a two year exemption. Time to pay the piper. They affected job growth alright but it was in foreign countries not here. Now today after all this crpola you are neing fed about entitlements you are being asked to extend theis boodogle or give up that which you have earned that they call entitlements which is a laundry list from the right wingers who think every thing they do not thik up is socialism even when they do not even know the meaning of the word. Here in a nutshell is socialism. The govenment owns everything and dishes it out to the people as they see fit....See any of that in America today?
The Douglerlotsanumbers:
What I wrote was a statement of pure empirical fact. I'm sick and tired of right-wingers like Spider and Roy Wilson cherry-picking facts to support their narratives. If you wish to argue numbers, that's just peachy keen. However, you seem to wish to engage in speculation as you wrote:
I don't guess. I'll leave that to the Roves and the Morrises, and apparently you. If guessing floats your boat, why don't you guess what value I give to guessing.
JohnStar:
I can't recall a post on the First Read thread by anyone - left, right, or center - suggesting that the budget can be balanced solely by taxing the rich. Come up with something better than such a ridiculous talking point.
I totally agree with Alan. It should be who is BEST for the job not what gender or ethnic background is the flavor of the day. This is what leads to inefficiency and inaffectiveness. Positions should be filled according to the best person who might happen to be a certain gender or ethnic background. Not the one sided way. Please!!!!
Nice joke on the wing nuts, I enjoyed it very much. Very clever. Well-batted well played.
As for newly elected Congressman Mullen from the great state of Oklahoma, I think he's going to be a pain in the patoot. Boren was just a do-nothing tool and I'd be really interested to know the back story on why he decided NOT to seek another term.
Here's my theory. Senator Tom Coburn is leaving the Senate in 2014. They needed somebody to run for his seat and I think Mullen is their man. Boren's not bright enough and even with his Dad's famous name and high approval rating, even today, it could be a tough fight. Mullen's the guy.
Bad news for those of us who are of a more rational political persuasion.
Have a great day kids. C-ya at the Fiscal Cliff. Remember last one over is a Republican!
So your response is to essentially say nothing?
I did like your changing of my name to TheDouglerlotsanumbers. Very good, creative. I like it.
My numbers are no less fact than yours. It's a simple statement that you can extract whatever information you'd like to take to benefit your argument.
How about we as a nation talk about how to benefit ourselves, instead of allowing a bunch of rich politicians lead us further down a path of unsustainability.
Some of these posters sure have the correct user name (those indicating thier greed) News flash, the welfare expense in this country is larger and much more expensive than social security and medicare combined, yet this administration wants to take from those who paid to give more to those that pay nothing. Why? Simple answer, that is thier voting base. THey have dumbed down our education system for years and fostered ghetto mentality of gimmie to build on that dumbness and it has worked. One big problem, it has also destroyed our economy so there are less payers. Let the damn thing go off the cliff. Sure it will be tough for a while but then maybe we can get our country back. Continuing down the same road expecting a different outcome is the very definition of insanity.
Take from those who paid and those who work and give to their voting base? A suicide plan for our nation. Maybe that is the objective but we have too many uneducated people to get that point accross.
TheDougler960608
I dismissed your comment, because all the polls I have seen match my own perception, that the Republicans look very very bad in this this fiscal cliff nonesense. Furthermore, you failed to read the whole article you quoted from:
ProBusiness-
There.
Fixed it for you Pro.
Salud
ProBusiness:
The person who posted that nonsense, clearly implied that his taxes were income taxes. I questioned that and of course, the poster never responded.
Your deflection is quite representative of what I have come to expect from ill-informed posters like yourself. Don't even go down the road of taxes - all of them - as an honest accounting is flatly impossible. Were you a true businessman, you would know that your customers pay your taxes. You merely act as a transfer agent. That's how taxes are collected.
My figures are correct. If this person - or you - wants to argue about excise taxes etc., we can go down that road, but that puts the lie to notion that 47% of the citizenry pays no incomes taxe. They are paying the income taxes, excise taxes, gasoline taxes, property taxes, and more for others, via a transfer agent. Your simply trying to muddy the issue.
The entire debate on balancing the budget has been conducted in an atmosphere of utter disingenuousness. Democrats do not get a pass on this as they have engaged in demagoguery, and have shaded facts. However, Republicans have flatly lied about their positions and facts.
As I've said before, if you folks want an honest debate, set a clear framework. Don't change the rules as you go along, don't deflect, and don't divert.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-34222_162-57557007-10391739/poll-gop-to-blame-if-fiscal-cliff-talks-fail/
In other words, you stopped reading.
Had you kept reading, you would understand that the remainder of my post, largely dealt with the fiscal cliff, and dems screaming for higher tax rates not only on individuals, but corporations as well.
But if you want to ignore it, as dems so often ignore the right, then by all means do so, it's really nothing new for you guys.
I also like your use of additional polls to support your stance. That's great, but my point was only to show that everyone can derive their own points if they want to. Considering most people in all of those polls that you and I both posted, would have no real clue on how to fix this government, or our issues, the polls are only worth as much stock as you put into them.
Patriotic American U.S.A.
Carter is a much maligned President and I am spending some time looking into his tenure. One term Presidents are either victims of their own doing or of prevailing winds. I believe Carter was of the latter and that history will elevate him in stature, and because he chose the pen and not the sword.
http://bx.businessweek.com/us-economy/fiscal-cliff-poll-the-public-is-afraid-and-blames-republicans/18242338117316581181-cfe42059ca24a65fa8c09169608acf42/
Thanks for the laughter, Jack! I appreciate the humor more than usual today. And thanks to all my friends for their best wishes, thoughts and prayers for tomorrow.Laughter doeth the heart good-like a medicine.
Me today ( * ) ( * ) me tomorrow --- --- ah crap! Cynbad
TheDougler960608
I ignored your point? You ignored mine!
Republicans seem unaware how this is playing in Peoria. The three polls I quoted above show the majority of Americans are prepared to blame Republicans if we go over the cliff. But don't listen to me...keep your head in the sand...I like winning elections.
@Jack in Portsmouth: Gwaddamn! Would've commented sooner, but I was laughing so much I couldn't do a damn thing. Now, all we need is for "Roy Wilson" to give us one of His analysis and commentary on your piece, then none of us will get another gwaddamn thing done all.............waaa,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha, da....waah,ha,ha,ha,ha,.........day! Great piece Jack! Waaaaah,....waaaaaahhh,ha,ha,ha,ha,................
ProBusiness-
Did everyone check out the lengthy diatribe I got Pro to say on my post?
The election was a month ago, and Pro is still trying to sway swing voters with his BS.
LMAO!!!
Sorry, Pro. I live in America.
You know, the predominatly Democrat nation that's moving FORWARD into the 21st Century!
You live in the 1850's where hatred and racism is the normal.
Keep repeating Rush's Talking points, Pro.
What YOU think is the "norm", is truly Bizarro!
Salud
@ amy.
Is it your ignorance, or arrogance that's getting in your way?
The poll was nothing more than a baseline to counter your argument. The fact is, you can make a poll to prove whatever point of view you want.
And we aren't talking elections here. We are discussing the fiscal cliff. And you, and everyone else here has yet to give an argument that counters what I said about the taxation issue, and that's the point.
Im so glad that you guys are the "big tent party". You are so accepting of everyone, just as long as they don't deviate from your idealogy in anyway.
The lefts "we won, get over it" mentality will only be tolerated for so long, before the American people start asking for results.
Dougler:
I have a policy of not discussing anything with rude, crude azzholes who offer only insults and no substance. Sorry.
Who has offered insults? Not myself...only ideas.
If you're speaking of someone named MRABILITY, who is the leftist troll on this board, then by all means, go ahead.
But because my ideas deviate from yours, people on the left consider it no substance. So either you didn't read it, or you, yourself is offering no substance.
Not only did what I said have substance, but it directly counters the argument of the left. Which seems to be why you're all ignoring it.
Look, if we are going to fix this thing, then lets do it, but if you are going to constantly ignore the other side, then nothing is getting fixed.
The fact is, the right has offered up Revenue, and doing so in a more productive way than Obama, and he won't even consider it!
TheDougler960608
I voted for Gerald Ford in my first election, and Olympia Snowe in several of hers, but, in the words of Taylor Swift, me and the Republican Party are "never, ever, EVER getting back together!"
Amy
Nice use of the song. I like that song actually.
But what does that and your previous voting have to do with any of this?
It's amazing when a liberal biased mainstream media has so many convinced that EVERY negative issue in D.C. is the fault of the GOP. If we go over the fiscal cliff, it's the GOP's fault. It seems the GOP are the only ones presenting any compromises, and Obama is playing the "not unless we raise taxes on the wealthy" game. Do the math, raising taxes on the wealthy won't amount to as much as a rounding error, but it will gain political brownie points, as the media will spin it 24/7. In reality, Obama wants to go over the cliff. Why wouldn't he? He gets to hike taxes on everyone and blame it on the GOP; and it might save a few scum bag lifetime Democrats jobs in the House and Senate due to the negative publicity.
Sorry, Alan NJ, you may claim to be opposed to identity politics but the majority of your posts in the past clearly state a political identity, a political ideological preference--and it isn't democrat or liberal.
TheDougler960608
I dated a man once who got drunk, called his ex-wife on the phone, and when her new boyfriend answered, shot the phone with his shot gun. In the house. With me in the other room.
He sobered up the next day, and apologised, said it was a stupid thing to do, but it was a deal-breaker for me. You don't endanger ME and expect me to trust you again.
The Republicans not only endangered our credit rating over the debt ceiling, they are now endangering our economic recovery, all to keep taxes low on the top income bracket.
In the words of Taylor Swift, me and the Republican Party are "never, ever, EVER getting back together!" And, it sounds like many Americans feel the same way.
Tomas Grande: Interesting how you resort to name calling but just simply can't dispute the facts I supported. You see liberals MUST mislead people in order to convince the unintelligent and uninformed. And you have now confirmed it is INTENTIONALLY misleading because once informed of your incorrect statements a person of class would accept their err and make a correction.
But you can't do that. Once questioned by those who ARE informed you resort to name calling. That's okay - I wouldn't expect otherwise. Just keep leading your fellow lemmings down the path of destruction and weakness.
In other words, you aren't interested on a real debate on the actual issues. You've added nothing but idealogical bias, whilst completely ignoring my original statement on actually working on the fiscal cliff and taxation in general.
I've actually made the point that you could raise the same revenue Obama asked for, and guarantee it, something Obama can't do, and all you can say is "all to keep taxes low on the top income brackett". So is it that you don't understand the tax system, or that you're so blinded by your idealogy, to the point where anything that differs from your view makes no sense in your mind?
M0-681343 "Roy Roy Roy, now you're proclaiming to be a budget analysis? Be honest you haven't even seen President Obama's 2013 budget proposal. You're making this up just to slam the ACA. I really thought these big lies would stop after the election, guess not. Roy, just another republican hack."
Here is more detailed information, with a link to Obama's Budget proposal;
What's the REAL problem with the Debt?
I have just researched the problem with health care entitlements, and it is far worse than most people imagine. I used the President's own Budget (OMB) for 2013 as the basis for the basic information, and here are the results;
The projected Revenues for Medicare/Medicaid over the next 10 years are $2.823 Trillion.
The projected Costs for Medicare/Medicaid over the next 10 years are $11.134 Trillion.
That leaves a net Deficit in the Medicare/Medicaid programs of $8.311 Trillion, which is even greater than the total projected Federal Deficits of $6.684 Trillion over the next 10 years. In other words, if we did not have a Deficit from health care, we would have a budget SURPLUS of more than $1.6 Trillion over the next 10 years. These figures include the implementation of Obamacare.
Obviously, something needs to be done with this HUGE 'entitlement problem', but it's a shame that the media does not give us the information that we need to make intelligent choices. Here's the link to Obama's Budget to verify - See Table S-5
http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/omb/budget/fy2013/assets/tables.pdf
My recommendation – Fully fund Medicare with increased payroll taxes of about $75 per month each for employers & employees, and for Medicaid, a combination of a small deductible ($10 per doctor visit) for Medicaid beneficiaries plus a National Sales Tax of about 3% (excluding food and medicine). These simple changes would fully fund these programs and lead to a Surplus instead of huge Deficits within 10 years.
Of course, we could save an estimated $4.7 Trillion over 10 years by cutting spending by only 10% each year (We have increased spending by 27% over 2008 levels). There are several ways that we could address the Debt problem – all we need is the political will.
By the way – The proposed increase in taxes on the 'rich' would raise less than 10% of the revenues needed to overcome the Deficits (and would likely curtail job creation because it would primarily affect small businesses), so obviously something else needs to be considered. And the proposed EPA regulations will cause consumer utility bills to spike at a time when families are already struggling to make ends meet.
I welcome any comments.
PS - What's YOUR solution M0-681343 , other than calling people names?
So your comment indicates that you obviously DON'T TALK TO YOURSELF!
Dougler... get used to it. That is the standard MO around here. Next steps are for them to start calling you names... then Fisty or Bev... (or one of their minions) start laying personal attacks at your doorstep.
@Sick.....
It wouldn't be the first time they ignore substance, and I'm sure it won't be the last.
Jack - GREAT start! I'm still chuckling since you really nailed those in your post.
Amy, give it up. The Dougler has shown he isn't interested in your facts - just his own ranting and ravings. When he couldn't argue with you he asked if it was your "ignorance" that kept you from agreeing with him. That pretty much says it all about him. You're fighting someone who can't accept anything you post because he has an empty mind!
And THAT is what it's REALLY all about isn't it InSanity....
Not finding solutions or fostering an environment of cooperation... no... it's all about 'REALLY NAILING THEM'!
(what a childish loser!)
Again, your bias stands in the way of an actual debate.
For starters, Amy wasn't discussing facts....Amy was discussing polls, and any educated professor will tell you, Polls are not facts, Polls are opinions.
I'm not asking for anyone here to agree with me, as you so stated. I merely set forth a point, that no one on the left of this board has countered.
If you speak to an empty mind, clearly you are speaking to yourself.
jack-1792739-
Jack, could it be that it is the fault of the GOP because of their policies and NOT the "liberal" media?
I thought Republicans were the ones who always talked about taking responsibility for one's own actions?
Can you and the Republicans ever admit you are wrong?
Or does it make you feel better to blame someone else.
Like the "Liberal" media, as Roger Aisles and Rush Limbaugh have told you.
Salud
I would support Hillary for President, but she really has GOT to stop with the short tempered "don't even ask me" crap like she did last time, which ultimately made me support Obama instead of Hillary.
I heard Hillary give a speech once that was so moving I sent her an email congratulating her and suggested she ought to run for President [not knowing at the time that she really was preparing for a White House run]. What I got back was a nasty email telling me off for suggesting she even think of running for President, which was quite alarming to me.
Then Senator Barack Obama gave his moving speech at the DNC, and the rest is history.
Hillary doesn't seem to understand that when there's talk about running for the most powerful office in the world, people are going to want to ask questions, and to put people off like that will definately cost her votes, and could cost her the election, again, if she runs.
Sick - you truly are sick and frankly, no one cares what you think. The fact that you can't acknowledge how clever Jack was is all on you.
Mr. Dougler - again with the put downs because you have nothing else. The empty mind is all yours and shows in every post you make.
ProBusiness-
I think every one here on First Read is constantly reminded from your posts how you've mastered the Karl Rove blogging tactics of projection, deflection, mirror, and demonize.
For instance, constantly claiming others are name calling when you are the heavy weight champion of name calliing.
You still are on pre-election mode.
You still think your blogs are of value.
You still think your blogging tactics are getting through to people.
Apparently, you are incapable of accepting the fact that America and the rest of the world are moving forward and your stuck in the past.
Simply put, you're a bore, and everything you write on this site is a bold-face lie.
Salud
Sick ...
God forbid that every single post on the boards NOT be about the cliff!
Jack didnt do shlt. He spent all weekend concocting that and was quievering to post first thing Monday morning on FR. WOW Jacklyn what a crowning acheivment and your left of che boyfriends love it. And yet here we are like in 2010, status quo. Good luck libtards, you'll run out of people to blame. better ramp up to blame the darkie in the future. I can take Jackoff's post one step further and sum up all the libs on here:
Dewey, Cheatem and Howe
Question:
If the STATES RIGHTS folks want independence from the Federal Government... shouldn't their Governor determine which of their Federally Funded programs should be CUT to save money?
Why is Congress battling this?
A State's population, and FEDERAL DEPENDENCY should be easy to calculate a formula that would DEDUCT 10-15 % for monies they receive.
Would there be an outcry...... when YOUR STATE has to pinch and give up "their" money...because it seems easy to imaginge that "waste" & "over-spending" is being abused "somewhere else".
Do I want programs "cut" in Rhode Island?
Not necessarily, but if EVERY STATE has to abide by the same rules, this FISCAL CLIFF becomes personal to us...and not a manipulation by lobbyist... or Grover Norquist.
Seeking Sanity,
TheDougler960608 wants to argue that Republicans have a better plan, but I'm trying to point out to him, by threatening to go over the cliff and wreck the economy if they don't get their way, the Republicans have lost credibility with the American people. If you want to reason with someone, you don't start out by threatening them. I realize I and TheDouger are not arguing apples to apples, but the fact Republicans are willing to risk hurting our economy doesn't bolster their argument for their plan to reduce the deficit.
Then, there is the fact, Simpson-Bowles, the gold standard for deficit reduction plans, advocates for raising revenues by raising tax rates. The committee that studied the deficit says eliminating deductions alone won't raise enough money, and may impact lower income Americans.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/04/11-shocking-true-facts-about-simpson-bowles/
Oh Mr. Sanity, please forgive me for simply restating the remark made to me, and deflecting back upon yourself. You're right, I threw the first stone.
I presume it's ok for you to throw your stones, but holy hell if someone reflects it back to you.
By the way Sanity, you'll continue to ignore the original statement, here I'll repost it for you
But alas, I don't expect a response, you see, I'm actually fine with the government taking in more Revenue, as long as it's done in a more responsible, and mindful way. Your side wants an increase in revenue, as long as it came from the mind of a democrat.
But if you want to give it a shot, I'm more than willing to actually consider your point of view, even if you won't consider one that isn't yours.
Layton - I think Sick is venting because Jack didn't acknowledge him in his post. Jealousy is such an ugly trait!
Amy - your posts and your points were clear. Mr. Dougler has no points and is now stamping his foot and screaming to get attention.
Dougler - not Mr. Sanity - Ms!
Seeking, Layton and all my other friends. Thanks for the support.
CA,
"quievering"? Not sure what that is, but it sounds dangerous. Maybe you need to stop licking the tip of your lead pencil. . . .
Amy,
similar to the point of view that democrats hold that simply raising rates on the top 2% won't fix the deficit problem, I contend that capping deductions won't fix the deficit anymore than raising the rates on the top 2% will.
What I'm saying is capping deductions is a more responsible way to raise at the very minimum the same amount of revenue that the tax rate increase does, but will likely actually raise roughly $100-150 Billion MORE than simply raising the rates on the top 2%. Perhaps more than that, when you consider that Obama's plan closes NO "loopholes" or deductions.
By the way, the polls you've shown, don't show that the majority of people want rates to be raised in an effort to reduce the deficit, they show that people want the rates to be raised ON SOMEONE ELSE.
We could get real serious about reducing the deficit and do what Howard Dean wants to do and let all Bush tax cuts expire, and instead of bringing in less than $80 Billion per year, as the President proposes, they could bring in nearly $300 Billion in additional revenue.
But my guess is you don't want your taxes raised.
My apologies, I did not know who you were.
However, I'm not stamping my foot or screaming to get attention.
I want nothing more than a debate. I've asked for nothing more, and nothing less.
Jack in Portsmouth
Maybe its latin? You do know CA likes to show us how smart he is...
Actually, the President wants to do both.
TO: Rick-3416939 who wrote:
Oh please! I watched Meet the Press, and according to all other news stations and everyone else, if the country goes over the fiscal cliff, REPUBLICANS will be held to blame, and everybody knows it and everyone has already heard, but in the face of all those facts you want turn it around backwards, and lie.
Go ahead, keep it up, until the Republican Party totally destroys itself due to its inability to tell the truth.
@Stop.
I've not heard the president have any interest in doing anything regarding deductions.
Is there something new coming out?
If so, or if he previously stated, is he closing deductions, or capping deductions?
Dougler,
Go back and listen to Treasury Secretary Geitner's interview on Meet The Press (and others) 2 Sundays ago. He talked about raising rates AND capping deductions. Capping deductions was law until 2011 (called the Pease provision). It's coming back in 2013. If the middle class tax cuts are extended (and all other provisions are allowed to expire) then the rich will get both new tax ratesa AND caps on itemized deductions. HA
go back to Clinton's tax rate (tax everyone more) and spend less and get control of our national debt.
let the whining begin..........
we will end up raising the taxes on the top 1% and forget to cut spending (Dems do not know how to and GOP and Dems love pork projects) and watch our debt go higher. Kicking the can (what we have been doing for decades) will only make the the former great depression the look not so bad.. coming in 2020s.
sceeeming commie, knowing a language, albeit a dead one doesnt make you smart. never said i was, i reserve that for your side. You know because you guys say you're smart, and presto it makes it true. Hey jackoff i noticed your back to picking on typos doesnt take away from you being a lame brain dolt. Perhaps you can stop licking boots and it may improve your persona, then again....
Want Federal Spending Cut?
Make EACH STATE CUT.
BIGGEST OFFENDERS SPENDING FEDERAL MONEY:
ooops...mostly REPUBLICANS!
Percentage of State Revenues from Federal Aid
Continued from "2011 Federal Aid Set to Overwhelm State General Funds."
State%
1. Oklahoma
50.6%
2. Louisiana
50.0%
3. South Dakota
45.6%
4. Mississippi
45.6%
5. South Carolina
44.8%
6. Tennessee
44.3%
7. California
43.3%
8. Michigan
42.1%
9. Pennsylvania
41.7%
10. Alabama
41.6%
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
OK & LA subsisting on 50% FEDERAL MONEY...and getty pissy at the President ? ? ?
Could you explain why it is the upper classes that tend to vote liberal then?
The people more informed, more educated and better able to think critically. It is true that Governor Romney won the white vote, but what is less well-known is that he lost the highly educated white vote.
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism_in_the_United_States :-
Mr Douger, the point of only raising taxes on the wealthiest is that raising taxes on the middle class would hurt the economy. Taking $2000 out of a family's budget would hurt consumer spending, which is a major driver of our economy.
Nobody is "picking on" the rich people. We just need to go back to the tax rates we had during the Clinton administration, before the Bush tax cuts, two wars, a housing bust and a financial crisis.
Oh, BS!
Here, yesterday: Poll: Public would fault GOP if 'fiscal cliff' happens
Here, 2 days ago: All Of The Fiscal Cliff Polls Have Been Pretty Brutal For Republicans
Here, 4 days ago: Fiscal Cliff Poll: U.S. Voters Trust Obama In Negotiations, Broadly Favor Tax Increases On Wealthy
Here, 3 days ago: Republicans Miss the Point on 'Fiscal Cliff' Debate
Here, 3 days ago: Republicans’ severe lack of leverage on the ‘fiscal cliff’
I could go on and on, but...
Do you live in the same alternate universe where Republican polls predicted a Romney win?
If that is indeed the stance of the President, then I assume it's something to be considered. Until your post, I've heard nothing of Obama wanting to do anything with deductions.
What makes you think "we guys" are against anyone? It is obvious that not enough taxes are being paid into the Treasury - that is why we are going into debt. The class warfare is not from "we guys." It is from "you guys" - the simple idea that this debt needs to be dealt with sparks off a bunch of insults about how we are losers and moochers.
You have a very simplistic view of the world: either you are with us or against us. Liberals see the world as being much more complicated than that, and consequently, we understand the function and need of corporations. We also understand that there is a lack of balance - not enough is being into the Treasury. It's a lack of balance. What we need is a redress of this imbalance.
The real problem is that you are unable to understand the difference between "restoration of balance" and "lynching."
Ah, Monday mornings. Here is a mental picture.
Emperor Norquist is chained to a wall. Reid and Pelosi are standing about 20 feet away, and in the background Boner and Obama are sitting at a table chatting.
Reid and Pelosi have a handful of throwing knives in their hands, and Pelosi is up first. Reid gets his chance in January. Obama is kicking back watching Boner sweat. Guess who is next at the wall?
Yeah yeah yeah... I know... I'm truly sick. Whatever.
(Get some new material, will ya? And BTW...No one cares that you don't care.)
This site is getting worse by the day. It doesn't even qualify as junior high any more. People like SpeakingInSanity have dropped this place back to the level of 5th grade put-downs.
Sad :O(
(If InSanity would use bold font and all caps... I would suspect her of being Bev in disguise.) hahahahah!
Douggy,
BTW, personal exemptions get reduced (or lost) too for upper earners again in 2013....gotta love it.
Why do you think Republicans were so adamant about closing loopholes of capping deductions?
Because they knew itemized deductions would start being limited again anyway. They have been trying to pull a "fast-one" for some time.....to no avail (although Republicans got a lot of people to believe taking one or another (capping or raising rates) would amount to the same, so why fight one or the other - thankfully raising rates looks like it will come about in the end).
Republicans could try to bargain that Pease (and PEP for the personal exemptions) provision away. Let's see what happens.
Oh agree completely that raising rates on the middle class would hurt our economy currently. My points were more to the funding that government is looking for, than actually taxing the middle class more.
I've never stated that anyone was "picking on" the rich. In fact, quite the opposite, I'm telling you I'm ok with increased Revenue, on the backs of the rich.
We could certainly get into the housing and financial issues, but that would be doing nothing more than dwelling on the past, and only lead to another point where we don't agree.
My simple point was that capping deductions, when compared solely to raising the rates on the top 2%, will do more to raise revenue, and guarantee that revenue. And both plans will affect the very same people, in the very same manner. If Obama's plan now is to both raise rates, and cap deductions, then that would certainly result in a higher net gain in revenue, and is something to be considered, and would probably provide more benefit to be used on conjunction with each other, than if they were used on their own.
I've got one more bone to pick though. I don't recall who said it, but the argument against capping deductions has been that it will hurt charities.
So, I've already established that capping deductions at $50,000 will only affect the same people that Obama wants to raise rates on.
So while dems talk down the rich for "not paying their fair share", they will then expect them to turn around and foot the bill for all their charities, not concluding that all those "loopholes", or deductions in the real world, that the rich are getting, are the very charities, you fear losing revenue from.
I contend, people who are going to give to charities, are going to do so because they want to, not because they get a tax break for it.
the United States has had one of the most liberal immigration policy's of any Nation; in the 1990's something happened, we let our border become a sieve, we are now facing upwards of 11-14 million illegal immigrants, no nation can long survive , if it does not control it's borders, reform what, make illegal acts legal!
Sick - 5th grade is still above your intelligence level.
The Dougler - many of us are willing to have our taxes raised in order to do the right thing for the country. However, we don't want programs cut for those who need those programs most - the elderly, veterans, and the working poor.
The constant whine of the Republicans about "freeloaders" and the "lazy not willing to work" is simply lies and anyone with any intelligence knows that. Continued put downs of those less fortunate show the far right has no understanding of what has happened over the past 8 years and no desire to admit the truth.
Those of us who are lucky enough NOT to have been hit hard by the recession or who are coming out of the tough times know there are many who still fight to put food on the table. The lack of integrity of the far right in labeling those people as "lazy" or "free-loaders" is disgusting and shows you have no desire to admit the truth!
How can you say it's obvious that there isn't enough revenue going into the treasure, and that's why we are going into debt?
The simple fact is, you cannot tax the american people at a rate to both sustain current government spending (no matter who you think is responsible for it), while at the same time sustain good economic growth. One or the other has got to give, you simply can't make up the difference without reducing the spending itself!!!
And my point to what you quoted, is if revenue is indeed the problem, then why does Obama propose Reducing rates on corporations?
This is for David Walker-David, if the Bush tax cuts were so horrible and we can't afford them as President Obama says, why does he want to keep almost all of the income tax cuts in place, except for the top 2%? By his own numbers this will bring in an additional 70-80 billion dollars in year one. What does that matter if your deficit is over one trillion? Obama wants to go over the fiscal cliff, that way tax increases will hit the middle class to the tune of 370 billion dollars, and he will get all of the defense cuts he wants that were laid out in sequestration.
See I think that's a misunderstanding of the rights stance. It's not that republicans believe that everyone taking money from the government is lazy or a free-loader, though I will contend those terms are thrown around on message boards. The point attempting to be made is that we as a nation should be doing more to reduce those numbers, not increase them. Now if you want to think that there aren't lazy or freeloaders taking from the government with no intention to ever work again, then that's just as ignorant as those thinking that everyone that gets from the government are those things. I don't suspect that's your stance, but it can't be ignored.
I completely understand that there are people who need assistance, people who have sincerely fallen on hard times. But I also contend that people in that position, are going to be willing to earn those benefits.
On a separate note, Republicans aren't out to hurt the elderly, veterans, the working poor, etc. But what we do understand, is that we don't start doing something now, then the cliff for items like Social Security, Medicare, and the like, won't be sustainable at their current output, if all the parameters remain the same as they are today. If we do nothing to either of those programs, then within many americans lifetimes, there will be a huge reduction in benefits in those areas, regardless of if we paid into them or not. The only other option is to raise taxes at a much higher rate, and to do so on everyone!
The problem with our government and our debt and deficit is vastly more because of spending, than revenue, and needs to be treated in that same manner.
Obviously, Obama wants the economy to improve (obvious to all except the right-wingers who think only the rich should receive "gifts"). So, what's better than getting 70% of the economy (consumer spending) more money, not less.
That's why your prediction of going over the cliff so everyone can pay more tax is laughable. And if we had to go over the cliff, Obama would propose a middle class tax cut on January 2nd, let the Republicans vote for it, or vote against it and hang it around their neck for everyone to see.
SeekingSanity
I know you are but what am I. Thanks seeking for such a great retort.
SOTB Seeking will drag you down to its level and beat you with experience, its a lost cause.
Here we go!.......
hey that was an awesome post to start things off...
Good morning libs!
Now if we can just get our gov. to stop acting like the lil kids on South Park
Actually the major drive of our economy is Savings & Investment. GDP, which consumer spending on goods & products, is not a complete measurement of all activity & spending in the economy. GDP measure on the "final" output or "finished goods", it does not include all sales of products in early stages of production, "gross output". Consumer spending historically tends to be steady through good & bad times. That is clear in the 2000-2003 recession numbers. Savings & Investment are far more volatile and the recession of 2000-2003 clearly shows that. We began to recover in 2003 when the Business spending picked up (ie Savings & Investment), not because consumers spent more, which they didn't, their spending stayed steady.
In normal times increased savings expands the pool of capital investments, lowers interest rates, and allows companies to adopt new production processes, new technologies & "create" new jobs. So when you tax the rich, you decrease the expansion of savings used for capital investments. Thus you decrease job growth.
No, people are "picking on" the rich. Taxing the rich isn't going to improve things, it isn't going to pay the bills and it isn't going to create jobs. Just look to France, Greece, UK and oh yes, California. How are they doing since they have increase taxes on the Rich?
Probusiness: Nonsense. You people on the right who rant against the lazy 47% who pay no taxes are of course talking about federal income taxes. If you include all other taxes than the 47% probably pay a higher percenatge of their income in taxes than the 1%. You simply can't bash the 47% for paying no income taxes and ignore all the other taxes they pay until it's time to complain about the percentage of all taxes the rich pays to make a point. Be consistant or be quiet.
I can't help from imagining Boehner thinking in the above picture, "Obama is so cool and I am so orange". "I've got to remember this year to not cry so much in public". Its so unmanly and so not cool".
[Good luck libtards, you'll run out of people to blame.]
Aww...poor Nauseous Maximus is angry that he got his ass handed to him again...
Let me put this in terms even a Fox "news" toadie like you can understand:
Navseovs Maximvs, don't let the door hit yov in the ass on the way ovt!
PIZZA! PIZZA!
Aaron from IL asks:
There is no single solution to bringing the budget into balance. As virtually every one of my lefty friends understands, we are going to have to look at every source of revenue, every place to cut expenditures, and closing every loophole possible. As I noted earlier, it is nothing more than right-wing propaganda - what we call BS in our house - that says Dems/lefties/libs/etc., want only a tax rate increase for the top two per-cent.
By the way, there is another huge upside to implementing those cuts in expenses and increases in revenue. If they are handled properly, we should see quite an uptick in employment, and a consequent increase in tax revenues.
As a matter of fact, the Bush tax cuts, which were extended during the first term of President Obama, are the single biggest driver of the deficit.
when a party always appears to be correct at everything...and defend it at the cost of half the nation....you know your being lied too...you know better...so we watch..we watch for this country to turn on itself...because hey its made up of 100% libs...and everyone else is an infection needing to be cut out...but they forget about who they are going to cut up for fun when anyone right of center has been eradicated....they forget that people turn on each other.
clb-462357,
How is austerity working for Europe? <--that is the correct question to ask. You're welcome. I would also like to point out that the U.S. economy has been more fruitful with higher taxes on the "rich" than it has been with historically low taxes that are currently in place. We tried your way and it didn't work.
roadlesstraveled,
We will never run out of people like you because while everyone is discussing cutting this or that there are countless schools who lack the funds to educate everyone equally. (:^D
@Dan,
You're missing something here.
Times weren't good because taxes were high....Taxes went higher because times were good!! There is a difference.
By the way, our way did work, and worked well. Were it not for the dems ignoring the warnings of republicans about fannie and freddie, we might not have had the housing market mess. Barney Frank being the primary culprit.
When you put that in conjunction with a Global recession, there aren't many presidents that wouldn't have taken a hit in 2008.
Key phrase there... no matter who you think is responsible for it. Actually, it does matter who is responsible for it. George W. Bush campaigned on a smaller government platform. He also grew the federal government by some 87%! At the same time he cut taxes twice! Do you begin to see a problem here?
So yeah, I agree. Start decreasing the size of government by rolling back all Bush increases over his 8 years in office. That will cut government spending almost in half! What? Still not enough? Then roll back those tax cuts he put in. Guess what then? You'll be back at the same point we were in 2000 when the CBO predicted we would have had the national debt paid off! Do you get that? Instead of being mired in debt, we would have had the national debt paid off in 2012 were it not for idiot Bush!
But the one thing we get from Republicans is that this all somehow has to do with increases in "entitlements". NOT in increases in government spending by Bush. NOT in tax cuts by Bush. SOLELY by the increases in "entitlements". It is a damned lie and it is why Republicans still don't get it!
Not yet, anyway. Maybe in 2014!
Nope. Taxes were high to pay down the debt. Do you know that if you republicons could have balanced your budgets we would have almost no national debt right now today. But no, you had to cut taxes for the rich.
Do you remember the dot.com bubble? It was caused by too many people with too much money chasing too few companies. Those who knew the score were bailing out in 1998, but Wall Street kept pumping money into overvalued companies. Hence the bust.
The same thing happened to the housing bubble. Too many people with more money than brains overvalued the housing market until it collapsed.
You people NEED your taxes raised. Maybe it will keep you from creating another bubble.
U.S. National Debt Graph + Voodoo-Economics Slides
The Weak Dollar Caused the Great Recession - Forbes
RI Mom
Your percentage method of recievers of federal aid is really skewed.
Actual dollars is a much better indicator. California receives by far the most in federal spending Dollars.
1. California $260 Billion Population 36 Million (#1)
2. Texas - $171 Billion - Population 24 Million (#2)
3. New York - $157 Billion Population 19 Million (#3)
4. Florida - $147 Billion - Population 18 Million (#4)
5. Pennsylvania - $117 Billion - Population 12.4 Million (#6)
6. Virginia - $110 Billion - Population 7.7 Million (#12 )
7. Ohio - $105 Billion - Pop. 11.4 Million (#7)
8. Illinois - $88 Billion - Pop. 12.8 Million (#5)
9. Michigan - $71.6 Billion - Pop 10.1 Million (#8)
10. Georgia - $71.1 Billion - Pop. 9.5 Million (#9)
Of the Top 10 benefactors of Federal money only Georgia and Texas voted for Romney.
Also, of the top ten list you have, the 3 Blue states account for 449 Billion in federal spending, and the 7 Red states account for 249 Billion. Cutting them drastically isn't going to put much of a dent in spending.
You have a weak, useless, and deceptive argument.
Dougler960608, #1.128- NICE Rebound!!! Ditto your post, for myself. Amazing what having more information than just what someone wants you to hear and know will do! I don't know a lot about "tax" structure, but I did know something would be wrong, as far as TRUST (and the lack thereof) goes with ANYTHING the Republicans would propose. (And, of course, if that additional information, itself, is also true)
Why on God's-Green-Earth wouldn't anybody NEVER TRUST John Boehner and the Republican Majority of the House of Representatives and Mitch McConnell and THE REPUBLICANS ON THE "SUPER COMMITTEE", in the Senate, etc? NEVER-EVER-NOT EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Amy B of Portland, Maine said something like that, too.
But, don't even get me started on the "Housing Crisis". There is A LOT of TRAUMA in hindsight seeing what was done to you, more than the above, because at least the above was caught in the planning stages instead of after it's irrepably harmed you!
Jack in Portsmouth - Loved your post this morning. Sorry I couldn't read it till this evening. I would love to see you pick out some of our favorite right-wing wackos and do a dialog on some more stories. Really funny stuff and right on point. Ever thought about doing screen plays?
KimH,
Thanks for your support. Last Winter, I wrote a handful of similar posts, but then I got too busy with work and couldn't devote the time. Typically they're topical, related to specific RWNJs and what they're posting at a given time. Some of the subjects of those posts have disappeared--not sure where they went. Glad you enjoyed today's.
Spider, why do you keeping listing how many Republicans were elected to the House in 2010 as though it were the number from 2012?
In 2012, the numbers are 234 Republicans and 201 Democrats. The Republican shrank in 2012, and more people voted for a House Democrat nationally than a House Republican.
Hmmm. This is the first time since the election that you have admitted the fault of both parties (surprisingly) in the fiscal cliff. It's a little late, but acceptable nonetheless.
Really??? Just "kick the can down the road" and pray that Congress will get a better deal??? First of all, the Bush tax cuts should be retired IN FULL. They were a pointless exercise in supply-side practice that did nothing but blow up the debt and set up the sword of Damocles now hanging above our heads. Secondly, what good is extending the rates for 6 months??? You yourself ought to know that doing that would do NOTHING to ease uncertainty; it would at best push uncertainty a few months ahead and delay the crisis while our leaders bicker in the Capitol.
Technically, it's not fair to count most state and local taxes in that assessment because they are tax deductible. As for the fairness argument, the rich don't pay enough in taxes. It used to be that they paid roughly 50-60% of their income in taxes, including state and local taxes and levies. That was under the "irrational" Dwight D. Eisenhower, who had a top tax rate of 94%. Now we all know that a 90% tax rate is unfeasible, but somebody please tell me why we can't raise the top rate by 3.6%??? I doubt the wealthy will engage in an Ayn Randian "capital strike" over 3.6%. If you want to ask my opinion, I say the wealthiest Americans (making about $5 million) ought to pay at least a 50% effective tax rate; that is how you enhance growth by decreasing income inequality.
First of all, you fail to explain Mitt Romney's 14% effective tax rate. Secondly, the rich pay far less than they did when America went through a massive expansion in economic growth, so to say that raising taxes on them by a meager amount will destroy the economy is baseless.
All I see from the GOP side is baseless arguments and class warfare. They bitch about how the wealthy will essentially let the global economic engine collapse if they don't get that tax cut, even though the rich aren't going to be taxed heavily and aren't the main drivers of economic growth. The Republicans ought to simply take Obama's proposal of $1.6 trillion in revenue and demand roughly $2.4 trillion in spending cuts and entitlement savings. I have an entire list of things that could lower debt to GDP significantly over the long-term and fix our fiscal health, but most of them require higher revenues or complex reforms that I think are beyond the intelligence of the average Congressional representative. $4.4 trillion is a drop in the bucket as far as I'm concerned, but the deal the President offered (minus the stimulus and debt ceiling mandate) sounds pretty damn good. Let me remind Republicans that they already got $1 trillion in spending cuts and that it's time to talk about revenues before we cut any more because I doubt the Democrats are willing to trust the GOP after their treachery during the debt ceiling debacle.
"...there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. ... My job is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives." -Mitt Romney, in leaked comments from a fundraiser in May 2012
There it is from the Republican candidate for president in 2012. Republicans DO believe that everyone taking money from the government is lazy or a free-loader.
Now that's in spite of the fact that a large number of those taking money from the government were forced into that position by the disastrous policies of the last Republican administration. At last count, 17 million people were put out of work and onto the dole by what is aptly called the Bush Recession - the worst economic setback this country has suffered since the Great Depression.
Can you spell I-R-O-N-Y? Can you spell D-E-C-E-I-T?
9 Things The Rich Don't Want You To Know About Taxes
For three decades we have conducted a massive economic experiment, testing a theory known as supply-side economics. The theory goes like this: Lower tax rates will encourage more investment, which in turn will mean more jobs and greater prosperity—so much so that tax revenues will go up, despite lower rates. The late Milton Friedman, the libertarian economist who wanted to shut down public parks because he considered them socialism, promoted this strategy. Ronald Reagan embraced Friedman’s ideas and made them into policy when he was elected president in 1980.
For the past decade, we have doubled down on this theory of supply-side economics with the tax cuts sponsored by President George W. Bush in 2001 and 2003, which President Obama has agreed to continue for two years
You would think that whether this grand experiment worked would be settled after three decades. You would think the practitioners of the dismal science of economics would look at their demand curves and the data on incomes and taxes and pronounce a verdict, the way Galileo and Copernicus did when they showed that geocentrism was a fantasy because Earth revolves around the sun (known as heliocentrism). But economics is not like that. It is not like physics with its laws and arithmetic with its absolute values.
Tax policy is something the framers left to politics. And in politics, the facts often matter less than who has the biggest bullhorn.
The Mad Men who once ran campaigns featuring doctors extolling the health benefits of smoking are now busy marketing the dogma that tax cuts mean broad prosperity, no matter what the facts show. Here are a few points about taxes and the economy that you may not know.
1. Poor Americans do pay taxes.
2. The wealthiest Americans don’t carry the burden.
3. In fact, the wealthy are paying less taxes.
4. Many of the very richest pay no current income taxes at all.
5. And (surprise!) since Reagan, only the wealthy have gained significant income.
6. When it comes to corporations, the story is much the same—less taxes.
7. Some corporate tax breaks destroy jobs.
8. Republicans like taxes too.
9. Other countries do it better.
Here is a question to ask yourself: We started down this road with Reagan’s election in 1980 and upped the ante in this century with George W. Bush.
How long does it take to conclude that a policy has failed to fulfill its promises? And as you think of that, keep in mind George Washington. When he fell ill his doctors followed the common wisdom of the era. They cut him and bled him to remove bad blood. As Washington’s condition grew worse, they bled him more. And like the mantra of tax cuts for the rich, they kept applying the same treatment until they killed him.
Luckily we don’t bleed the sick anymore, but we are bleeding our government to death.
http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-17350-9_things_the_rich_dont_want_you_to_know_about_taxes.html
___________________________________________________________
All right once again. Supply side don’t work. It ain’t never worked. Won’t never work. Can’t never work. It was a fantasy brought to fruition by Friedman and St. Ronnie of Raygun. ‘Course it was a Wall Street Broker’s wet dream and they’ve spent upwards to five billion dollars since St. Ronnie made them policy trying to convince you that everything is just fine and prosperity is just around the corner. ‘Cept we don’t never seem to turn that corner do we? Guess what we never will.
Now most of you youngster’s like young Timmy Geithner are to be forgiven for believing that you can somehow make it work. Hell you’ll don’t know any better this is the only thing you’ve heard since you were in short pants. There several of us around however that are old enough to know better. We can remember when the system worked. Now some of us don’t want to show our age and some of us downright lie about it ‘cause we don’t want to admit that we’ve been took.
Oh everybody bitched about it back then. Rich and poor. Heck a man that couldn’t bitch about taxes wasn’t breathing. Problem comes in when a bunch of Yahoo’s decided to do something about it. So St. Ronnie of Raygun (who I believe was a nice guy if a trifle absent-minded in his later years) tried to fix it. Problem was that he fixed it so the 2% was real happy and left the rest of us to bitch. And the more he fixed it for that 2% the less and less there was for the rest of us. So the bitching has got to the point where it’s pretty serious.
So let’s fix it. Admit that Supply Side was a lot of fun for the 2% and get on back to working and taxing the system to make it work instead of trying to make it fulfill all those Pie in the Sky dreams and aspirations for the 2%.
Get it back to 100% of us bitching about taxes. That sounds about right.
The Bush tax cut for the rich give obscene profits to the rich who used the money to gamble in the stock market - causing a bubble that burst to bring about the worst recession since the 1930s. Other wealthy folks just moved their wealth to Cayman and Bermuda Islands to avoid taxes.
Either way, the trickle-down economics didn't work.
.
Time to balance Bush's approach with tax increases ... so the government can spearhead the 'invest and grow' approach which worked well during the Clinton boom.
Great post, IR, as always.
Pig, you actually spew crap from your mouth like you are some great economist. When the truth is ,you are just some sit at home who knows nothing. Pathetic hypocrite!
Thanks Friends and Neighbors.........Jack I see you've decided to start Monday morning of with a bang yourself. Well done and very apropo.
Going off the fiscal cliff gives Democrats exactly what they want, tax increases, defense cuts, it is not at all something they find distasteful. So for Democrats the only reason to avoid going off the fiscal cliff if they are going to shoulder the blame, and nothing else.
Joe seems like you've forgotten that age old adage this morning "It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to type it and absolutely remove all doubt."
Wow! Thanks professor!! Now can you build us an iPad from coconut shells and palm tree leaves?
Sure Redneck
Mega Rich are hiding Trillions in off shore havens, the GOP Loonies call this Trickle down to the little people !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ind, Mark Twain?
Patriotic, where do you loons dream up this crap???
sky......... Gene Owens with a little bit of Jeff Foxwothy and Willie Nelson for seasoning.
IR, terrific article and added pearls of redneck wisdom.
St Ronnie's big idea to cut taxes for the rich was actually a self-indulgent one; he didn't like paying higher taxes. In fact, he declined movie offers or postponed making them toward year-end just so he wouldn't hit the higher tax bracket. Along came some yahoo named Friedman preaching about the wonders of trickle down and St Ronnie decided to buy it and sell it nationwide. 30 years later, the GOP still preaches about those wealthy job creators (who only create wealth for themselves). It was President Reagan who turned this country from a creditor nation into a debtor nation and it was he, he turned this republican into a democrat.
GOP blueprint to recovery is Trickle down !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Ronnie Tunes of supply side economics is nothing but right-wing fantasy that has never worked well in the real world. Such Ronnie Tunes of Reaganomics are just euphemism for corporate welfare that has fed lazy corporate pigs for more than 30 years and has destroyed all sense of fairness in America.
.
Time to end such Ronnie Tunes and end corporate welfare as we know it.
When is the Tea Loonies going to stop filling our landfills with their garbage, what a waste-enough with this rubbish !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I would like to add an observation to that, IR, if I may be so bold:
"Supply side don’t work. It ain’t never worked. Won’t never work. Can’t never work." I have a theory of my own regarding the relationship between worker wages and the overall prosperity of a society. I don't have a fancy name for it, bein' just a dumb-ass plumber from Texas who never quite got all the common sense educated completely out of him, so... let's call it "Everybody Comes Out Ahead-side Economics."
Look: when workers are paid higher wages, they don't buy racehorses or Matisses. They buy RVs, water craft, and skis. They generally take their vacations at the Grand Canyon or Mount Rainier; in off-years they stay closer to home and go to Six Flags. When the Productive Classes are paid more money, they turn around and pump it back into the American economy, which increase the demand for more stuff, which creates more jobs, which in turn increases spending... and at the top of the food chain are Montgomery Burns, Scrooge McDuck, Richie Rich and the little guy from Monopoly, raking in the bucks faster than they can count them.
Pay your workers a decent, living wage, and YOU GET RICHER FASTER! For God's sake, why is that so *(%$#@! hard to understand?
I see some of you have let the pied piper convince you that out govt needs more revenue that the record billions it is now raking in. Not so. Time to force our reps and sens to deal with what they have and make it work. There is enough. They are sitting there like spoiled, fat brats and refuse to do nothing until we send them more money. They have plenty. Now you guys up on Capital Hill who are saying no to revenue increases hang in there. Dig in and hold on. barach obeans and his henchmen have enough. Make them make it work. Believe me there is enough. Its our government not the Salvation Army.
Great post, IR and your comments are, as usual, spot on. The first George Bush had it right when he called it 'voodoo economics." We gave supply side economics more of a fair trial than it deserved and it is time for the 2% to recognize that the party is over. It was a party for them but not for the rest of us.
pete308 of #2.18...I don't trust government with more money, but we can't trust the greedy corporations either, at least the voters have some control over the government. Besides, we the people want a healthy competition between government and corporations, not one dominating the other. Bush's market tyranny has hurt us so bad, it's time to correct it, giving the government some measure to compete with corporations. Unfortunately, sometimes government and corporations collude to violate the trust of the poeple, other times, they just engage in destructive browbeating of each other.
balance is the rule.
Fox..... Makes perfect sense to me and in fact Henry Ford proved the concept.......Now if you would just figger out a way to hold some of these Yahoo's down,drill a hole in their heads and pour in some Coca-Cola for them to use for brains we just might get somewhere.
Great post, IR - thanks.
Fox, I'm going to copy yours and put it in the breakroom at my office! ;-)
Pig: Move to China then you'll have the government you're proposing. This is the USA and government is NOT in the business of competing with private enterprise. If you prefer communism move to China.
FoxTrotsky, well said.
If Walmart paid its workers living wages, gave them 40-hour weeks and benefits, their own employees could afford to buy more in their stores as well as other places. The biggest, most profitable companies have lost all sight of good sense; they have short-term profit goals without any long-term vision.
Of course you can trust greedy corporations more than government. When is the last time government sent you a dividend check?
A board can replace management at will...we have to wait 4 years to replace an elected official.
Within a business, everyone wants it to succeed, board, management, workers and investors. With government, political differences, favors, earmarks, pet projects...all interfere.
That is why the size and scope of government should shrink. Why we trust politicians to run Social Security is beyond me...they can shift the payout, change the tax rate...etc at will- what a scam. I will be against Social Security till the day the tax rate, amount that is taxed, benefits paid, and benefit age are truly set in stone. Anything else is a riskier gamble than Wall St.
Far too often, when immedient greed reared, a company would look at payroll for profits. Long-term thinking was tossed aside. Keeping your workers pay constant, meant that profits went up by the value of inflation. Workers be damned. Instead of innovation and expansion, to improve profits, there has been a culture of cuts to cleave flesh from the corporate body. When to company was "to the bone" they found newer cheaper bodies to carve (China). What we need, is a business culture of growth and innovation. Both, have been stifled by "trickle-down" economics!
Umm, T-REX? There have been some recent developements in American business culture that you're apparently not quite up to speed on. May I?
"A board can replace management at will"... and you, the average customer, have absolutely no say in that. You won't even know that it's happened at all, unless you're a major stockholder. Government is supposed to be accountable and responsible; and unlike a private corporation, when it's not, we have ways to make them behave.
"Within a business, everyone wants it to succeed, board, management, workers and investors." Roger Smith (General Motors), Carl Icahn, Ivan Boesky, Mitt Romney.
...they can shift the payout, change the tax rate...etc at will- what a scam. But private corporations never do things like that to f*** the little guy as a way of increasing their own personal fortunes. That's why real estate has always been a fail-safe investment, especially since September of '08, isn't that right Dinosaur?
Meteor, my flat foot! I think we're figuring out the real reason y'all went extinct- you had Wall Street banksters running your retirement funds.
That would be just fine if your only goal was to balance deficits. But, damnit, with all the spending that went on in the last 12 years, it is time to pay that national debt down too! That will do nothing but make our dollar worth more and give some of the buying power back to Americans.
Then there is the little fact that, of the $16.3T in debt, roughly $6.3T is owed to the SS and Medicare trust funds. That's enough to fund the huge increase in retiring baby boomers coming up right about now.
you know.....if the people doing the work up there in Washington were American patriots we would not even be having this discussion.......
Hey Redneck, your "facts" are a joke and you quote no numbers. Fact-"Republicans like taxes." What a moron. Hey dunce, the top one percent of wage earners pay 40% of the income tax burden. Their burden increased as a result of the Bush tax cuts from 37% to 40%. The bottom 50% of earners share of the total burden went from 3.9% to 2.9%. 8 million people went off the tax rolls completely as Bush doubled the per child tax credit and lowered the bottom rate to 10%. And almost half of earners pay no federal income tax. Some actually receive money at tax time through the child earned income tax credit. So what the hell are you talking about?
Bush's trickle down gave 400 billion every year with 70% going to the, "job creators". Under Bush we averaged 32,000 net jobs per month over 8 years the worst since WW2. Clinton averaged 375,000 new jobs a month and Obama 130,000.
Aaron: The main problem with your argument is that rich people object to paying more and it's only republicans that are wealthy. There are more democrats than republicans and that divide is growing. I doubt Gates, Buffet and the hollywood elite with most being democrats would accept you speaking for them. Republicans problem is they shout their outrage at raising taxes on the rich yet have no idea if most rich share their opinion. Republicans pretend they speak for all rich people. Which of course isn't true.
Obviously Aaron your Coca-Cola was just a tad flat.
Larry-367607 "Bush's trickle down gave 400 billion every year with 70% going to the, "job creators". Under Bush we averaged 32,000 net jobs per month over 8 years the worst since WW2. Clinton averaged 375,000 new jobs a month and Obama 130,000."
Making up figures again?
Here are the official figures from the government's Bureau of Labor Statistics;
Clinton - Average jobs created = 240,000 per month (23.059 million total)
Bush - Average jobs created = 52,000 per month (5.005 million total)
Obama - Average jobs created = MINUS 11,000 per month (Minus 527 thousand)
This just in...as soon as you begin running for any elected office YOU ARE a politician!!!
Well, this IS Oklahoma we're talking about here. They don't know the meaning of the word "politician". Hell, they think there's a "k" in "dictionary"!
Social Conservative, what does that mean Mr. Mullin, what's your agenda, sir?
heck, my three year old nephew is a politican.
When is that Trickle Down going to start working ??????????????????
PA USA:
It started as soon a StRonnie signed it into law. Didn't you feel that warm, yellow liquid flowing from above to drench all bellow?? After 30+ years, the molding from all that drenching has turned into the green eyed monsters we are to believe are job creators. They truly are, just ask China and India. As for our country, USA, the people are being flushed with the rest of trickle the job creators are still pissing.
Turn the fan around, then they can piss into the wind, and not on US.
Much Love from the Pissed on Pup,
>:o): PuRrrRrRrRrRrrrr
Politicians suck. They should all be sequestered in dorms until they get the job done. I hate how they are above the Joe Citizen
It is time to move on from tinkle upon economics. I suggest we take a hard look at the German economic model. Instead of propping up "too big to fail" dinosaurs they concentrate on helping the little guys prosper.
BERLIN, Germany — The backbone of Germany’s muscular economy isn’t in the big cities. It is in thousands of towns spread across the country, the homes of what Germany calls its mittelstand.
The mittelstand are the 3 million mid-sized businesses, often family-owned, that employ more than two-thirds of the country’s workers and contribute half of its GDP.
And don't forget that the Germans have strong labor Unions and a great health care system that costs them about half of what we pay.
German Economy | Manufacturing | Mittelstand | G20
Patriotic American U.S.A.
When is that Trickle Down going to start working ??????????????????
well it here comes now...wait...no..no that was a dribble, didn make it down it got soaked up on the way
The problem with republicans is most can't think. Republican leaders talk about smaller government, eliminating the deficits and debt and they cheer. The only problem is they run a president who wants to cut 500 billion a year in revenue, increase military spending 200 billion a year and start a new space program that would cost hundreds of billions more per year and they don't bat an eye. It's like as long as they say their goals are what republicans want they don't care if their actions do the exact opposite.
Yo, WSJ! Talk is cheap!
Rick Snyder turning Michigan into a Right To Work (For Less) state. I hope he gets crucified.
If Markwayne Mullen is still in Washington 10 years from now, he'll officially be a politician. You can take that other window dressing and stick it someplace the sun doesn't shine!
The way it is explained to me auntie, is that an honest person can be elected in Michigan, but by the time he gets to Washington he won't be. This is pretty true of most republicans.
Snyder hasn't left the state. He's REALLY screwed!!
News flash!! Unions and Liberals both, are cancer to this country.
Yeah, he was a crook before he left Battle Creek, I have never been so ashamed of a Battle Creek Lakeview alum., it seems to me like the nerd has hoodwinked many in this state into believing he cares. Now there is a commercial by him saying right to work for nothing is good for labor. How effing stupid does he believe we in Michigan are?
Joe later in the news, conservatives like yourself are the problem, not the cure. Please feel free to go do the anatomically impossible act of effing yourself.
Joe-2849984
Good for you, Joe!
Blaming the majority of Americans and the American way, again.
Pathetic.
Salud
News Flash Joe, dumb post, if it weren't for unions, good and bad, there wouldn't be a middle class only robber barons, old and modern.
John, where is all that phony liberal tolerance you hypocrites preach?
sky, the Unions were necessary at one time, but for the last 30-40 years they have helped no one. Do you really believe that a public union is necessary. When would any government branch take advantage of its employees?
Joe, obviously some industries non-union are in the robber baron, company compound mode==Murray Mining?
joe#'s, it's difficult to be tolerant of the uninformed, especially those like you who simply repeat the 30 years of Reagan anti-union prattle without ever educating themselves and without realizing that all the good benefits nonunion companies offer employees came about in order to be competitive--sink or swim are words you might grasp. Once production employees are denied any ability to bargain collectively, the goodies for all will disappear.
Here's a truth: American wages declined in the same trajectory as union membership declined; that decline began with Ronald Reagan. The reason is because when workers give up collective bargaining powers and as states force the elimination of employee bargaining rights to become Right to Work (an oxymoron), all employees lose.
Jody---couldn't agree more. The unions have been under assault since the Reagan years and I'm sorry to say they didn't fight back as they should have. I hope that they have learned the lessons and will fight harder and wage a more effective PR fight as well.
Jody is absolutely correct, wages have trended downward as Unionization has diminished. That's why companies fight for their elimination. That's why they put money behind guys like Snyder for underhanded legislation like the Right to Work for less. It's obvious to the truly informed!
I'd add these benefits we enjoy today bargained and lobbied for by Unions: 40 hour work week, time and a half after 40 hours, double time for Holidays worked, vacation pay, health coverage, pensions for an affordable retirement, Labor Day, Holidays off with pay, minimum wage, workplace environmental safety, death benefits, FMLA, the list is virtually endless.
Instead of decrying Unions, do yourself a favor- thank them for making your quality of life MUCH better!
Ayup. Here are some graphs that show just what has been happening to our economy for the last 30 years. As Unions have weakened wages and benefits have gone down while the rich have gotten richer.
GRAPH: As Union Membership Has Declined, Income Inequality Has Skyrocketed In The United States | ThinkProgress
inequality-p25_averagehouseholdincom.png (PNG Image, 631x346 pixels)
Curious...how many Senators who would oppose a nomination of Susan Rice as Secretary of State could even find the Democratic Republic of Congo on a map?
Agreed
My guess is about as many as the number of Senators that ARE endorsing here for the position of Secretary of State that could find the Democratic Republic of Congo on a map!
Intervening in the Congo, seriously. No, no, no to being the world's Cop.
Is there oil there?
Diamonds and other mineral deposits, which of course the world wants. As for oil, Da, probably--funding for the Civil War, from who, follow the money.
From the article, "And in Michigan, the president will set foot in the state featuring the nation’s latest labor battle"
Michigan's republican Gov. Snyder is leading the charge to make Michigan the 24th right to work for nothing state. He is being pushed by billionaire Dick Devos. (Amway). Today there is going to be a huge rally at the capital and all are wearing red signifying solidarity. Even if you cannot be there you can e-mail the Gov. and display your displeasure at this attack on working people. This is just another instance of elections have consequences, the republicans own all three branches of government since 2010. 2014 cannot come soon enough to rectify the voters mistake of believing the tea party was really interested in jobs. The legislation they are passing has not been nor it will be about jobs.
All states should be "Right to Work" states!!!!!!!!!!!
Joe again, up yours and those you love. Fair wages and safe working conditions are not a given. Right to work for nothing with no benifits thats your way and it is wrong.
Did I say anything about wages or benefits? You don't need unions to achieve that.
If unions are SO GREAT, why are they afraid that they will lose membership? Workers should be knocking down the doors to join if unions are the answer.
Oscar, and how do you know they are not knocking on union doors or calling union offices to get membership.
C'mon Oscar, tell us how you know this. I mean you must have talked to everyone person in the country to come up with your statement, right...
Joe, of course you need Unions: for one thing need Unions to keep the pressure on those applicable industries with the threat of being Unionized to pay comparable salaries and offer benefits. Unions set the standards for decent work environments, pay, benefits, work-rules, safety. Don't forget Union roots and what Unions have accomplished for America, regardless of the bad, Unions have been a good thing for American workers.
Joe#'s, yep, they should all be Right to Work states--that way, and this is fact, employees in those states will be guaranteed the right to work for 3-7% less in wages and benefits. Oh, yes, GOPers, let's continue the war against the middle class workers. Once again as the GOP continues leading the effort with the uninformed minions like Joe#'s repeating the big business lies as told to them by the GOP.
Thank you John in BC, you just added Amway to my avoid list.
Working in a right-to-work state, I just want to thank John for speaking up for those of us that do. Red for life and right to work - not a good combination for the middle class.
There is a direct relationship between the decline in Unions and lower wages and benefits for all workers. Unions work for all workers.
GRAPH: As Union Membership Has Declined, Income Inequality Has Skyrocketed In The United States | ThinkProgress
That's right Jody, but that's countered by a much lower cost of living, including lower (or no) state taxes.
Does anyone else see the irony here? There is a make believe Armageddon date that will, most likely, crash our economy to force our government to find a way to....not crash our economy? Anyone else see the idiocy of that?
I believe it's more ironic to see the party that says that government spending is leading to recession is now that same party that says the massive spending cuts in defense will...wait for it...lead to recession.
yes...washington only needs to create the perception that they are doing something
and wasn't it congress that created the dealine for the "cliff"?
Wasn't it Congress that created the cliff in the first place?
It was the republicons in Congress who refused to compromise and got our credit rating downgraded that caused this fiscal cliff. They caused this. We all know it and now they are sitting ducks. And Pelosi is first in line to go after them.
You libs have NOTHING but the blame game !! When is Obama in charge ? Is he responsible for anything at all ?
You got 98% of what you wanted and then you walked out and got our credit rating downgraded. You walked out. You are to blame.
"I'm glad the Supreme Court is going to hear those cases regarding the issue of gay marriage. This ought to lead to some rational and intelligent conversation."
...said nobody ever!
Shame on the GOP. Why do people vote for these idiots? They are pro big business, pro the 1%, pro the ultra rich and pro corporations. The rich don't pay taxes. Mitt only paid 14% one year. He paid less the other years. Glad he's gone. Whew relief. Vote out the GOP, start a third party.
Hank, you are a misinformed fool.
Hank why do people vote for republicans??? We know why the vote Democrat.. For welfare, food stamps, and lack of personal responsibility. Giving money out when one has a surplus in one thing but continuing when we are 16 trillion in debt is insanity...
I vote republican even though I am not rich because I believe in living within my means, I am not entitled to the wealth of others, and I understand that taxes (business expenses) are passed down to the consumers. Now don't get me wrong if businesses are doing something illegal I want them stopped. I also don't believe in bailing out companies for mismanagement or too big to fail mentality. If we would not do this then companies would operate more conservatively...
Is the name calling really necessary, does it make you feel that your much more of a man there joe. I feel sorry for you that to prove your point you have use childish games as name calling
melsi, "fool" that's the worst you have ever read on this site?? Please! Ok for Hank to call people "idiots" though.
I vote for republicans because they understand that the USA as an entity must be profitable on the world stage...democrats just want to get their unfair share and use their chinese credit cards.
but just to be truly fair...the entire bunch in washington need to be hung
Hank, you need an education of financial investments. If you, Mitt Romney, or anyone else lives off of dividend income (that is, income that has been taxed by the federal government and dispersed to the shareholders), it is subject to what is called Capital Gains taxation. In other words - it is taxed twice. First by the company at the corporate rate, then by the individual. And, yes, double taxation is NOT supposed to be legal in this country. But, the feds get away with it. Mitt Romney lives of of this kind of income just like millions of senior citizens. Hence, the lower rate. If you are comparing earned inome to capital gains income you are trying to compare incongruencies and that never works out. Interesting fact - every time the capital gains tax has been lowered tax revenues go up.
Alan; you actually compared Mitt Romney's dividend income to social security benefits of the elderly? How in the hell can you hope to be taken seriously after that comparison.
Hank, they do pay taxes. Different sources of income are taxed at different rates. This does not mean anyone is cheating or avoiding taxes. Invest in muni bonds, support cities and states with their projects and earn a low rate of interest while doing so...but suffer the wrath of citizens who the projects support because your interest in Fed Tax free? Come on. we all know munis, dividends and capital gains are taxed differently. Yelling at someone because they pay these rates is like tilting at windmills.
Funny how some people spent their lives, fighting for someone else to pay more.
@Alan-lotsa no's#10.6: Bullsh^t!
Kent - ignorance like yours and the rest of the Republican party is one reason, as an Independent, I wouldn't pull the lever for the GOP for any reason. Your hatred and lack of knowledge is astounding. Welfare and food stamps have increased because we are coming out of the worst recession since the Great Depression. There are fewer jobs so more people have fallen on hard times. What part of that do idiots like you refuse to understand?
Most of those receiving help would much prefer working and that is what our President is trying to help them attain - jobs.
When you actually begin to think - instead of spouting your stupidity - try again! YOU and idiots like YOU are the reason the Republican party is coming apart.
Apparently Joe lives in one of the "right to work" states... where he can't find a job worth going to work for. So he stays at his mom's home and plays on her computer all day, aggravating the masses while Fox News spews it's garbage 24/7/365. Between those two activities, he thinks he serves some purpose in life. You folks might want to do like I did, and put Joe on "ignore"... that way you just see "Joe", every third or forth posting but no real content. See, it's almost like if you didn't have him on "ignore" except for you can't be aggravated at his latest drivel.
Those right to work for nothing states are the real welfare queens of America. Taxes are so low there that some of them can't even afford to maintain their roads without a handout from us Democrats.
Joe: You constantly bash people who post facts they can back up yet never post anything to prove anyone wrong. A belief that republicans can't be that bad isn't enough. They are. That's why you can't disprove anything posted.
Cooch: First, you might want to have your reading comprehension checked. NOWHERE did I mention Social Security. Reread please - Social Security is NOT a capital gain distribution or a financial investment. Those that don't understand financial investments are usually the first ones to complain about rates being unequal.
Good Morning Everyone
This probably explains a lot with the glasses of beer in front of both men now I know what their doing. Instead of the usual give and take involved with politics they're probably playing quarters, you know two of three and you get this and if you miss I get that :) giggle
That is a great idea melis!!!! especially since Boener will be plastered already by the time the game starts!
"Like a student in college or a reporter working in the news business, the real work ... typically doesn’t happen until there’s a real deadline that’s rapidly approaching". Thank you Chuck Todd for explaining why news stories so often lack substance and fact and are instead filled with biased opinion, emotion and half truths. It's because reporters, like college students, are cramming for the final exam that they never really studied for.
journalists also crib off each other - it's rare to see original reporting, or a genuine insight. It takes seconds for a simple thought to become "CW." It's a giant echo chamber sometimes.
this has nothing whatsoever to do with the fiscal cliff and my apologies up front as such; however, it is inspirational in that courage counts for a lot in the human spirit. This young man has a terminal illness and not much time left in this life and with his family. At 17 he relies on music to speak his feelings as such and he is facing his fate with the utmost respect and regard for his loved ones. If you could be so kind, check him out and help him achieve a million hits or more, before he is gone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDC97j6lfyc
November elections voted for the status quo, Same gridlock and welfare vote buying! Any agreement will do NOTHING to address the 16 Trillion debt! All this quibbling is to cut the current (1) year budget deficit of a TRILLION dollars and doesn't even fully address that. If we are going to be serious about the problem... Taxes should increase on EVERYONE and 3 dollars of cuts for every dollar in increased tax revenue!! However, NOBODY in either party has the guts to make the hard choices. Republicans don't want to stifle businesses and Democrats don't want cuts in their welfare vote buying program...
Kent: In a way, I agree with you....I think ALL of Bush's tax cuts should be thrown out; however, I think the ones on the middle class need to be raised slowly rather than to hit the middle class with a huge tax bill all at once. There's no reason why they can't just ease in tax increases on the middle class a little at a time, maybe yearly at 1% or whatever. This would give the economy a chance to perhaps strengthen, which would make it a little more palatable for the middle class to deal with tax increases over a period of time.
As a member of the middle class myself, this would work for me if it were done over a period of time and when things were a little better economically. The upper class can easily afford a fast tax increase....they would hardly notice it at all. The middle class....at this time....not so much.
Both sides of this argument are only trying to score points to save up for the next election. It is so overtime for either a term limit on Congess or a good old fashioned revolution and start all over again. What we have is obviously corrupt, self serving and not functioning. Our Constitution was a beautiful statement of principles, but ever since dishonest Abe, presidents have been rewriting it or ignoring it as they see fit.
So 8 days after January first, which is the number of days that the higher taxes on the 1% or 2%er's will have been all spent by BO-DUMBO's adminstration, where are you getting the money for the other 357 days? Typical DEMO-RAT (Give me a hambuger today and I'll pay you on Tuesday) no tax hikes without SPENDING CUTS. Same trick they used on President Reagan in the 1980's and those promised cuts never came, so President Bush (The First) was forced to raise taxes to cover the DEMO-RAT's spending! After this you will all be paying for BO-DUMBO's continued spendng for the rest of your lives !!
"Mr. Obama isn't going to blink on the budget if he thinks Republicans are going to blink first, and so far the emerging GOP position seems to be to surrender on taxes first and hope Mr. Obama will have mercy on them later on entitlements.”
Freaky - when you call the President childish names - it shows what a moron YOU are!
Ayup. As soon a I saw that I moved on. That person is just a waste of time.
there's Freaky Slinger, slinging his lame names and ape @!$%# everywhere again. Garbage like him has only one good purpose, and that is to utilize the "ignore" function here.
.
Yes, I am waiting to see the list of spending cuts the dempocrats are proposing, to go along with the tax increases they are proposing. And what will obamacare actually cost the tax payers once it is implemented? That has to be figured in as well.
You can call the Republicans obstructionists, and to a large degree that fits, but to pretend the Demcrats are doing their part with a long list of proposed spending cuts, is a joke.
Everybody's taxes are going up. Surcharges on dividends to pay for Obamacare, etc. Remember $250,000 was the threshold for being rich? Now they want it ti be $200,000. All kinds of shenanigans coming from the left. They have their eye on confiscation of your 401K as well.
Taxes are going up on EVERYONE yet so many are too stupid to get it. Starting in 2013 house sales will also be taxed for Obamacare....
There are quite a few taxes going up in 2013. Interesting that most people are so focused on the fiscal cliff stuff they forgot about the bevy of Healthcare-related ones. Historically, higher taxes in a current business climate/economic cycle such as the U.S. (and world) are experiencing is the eqivalent of playing with fire. Those that play with fire get burned.
I'm getting ready for an over the cliff party, thanks to GOP and the TP (Treason Party) we Democrats going to be in power for a long time.
haven't any of you figured out how the game is played.it doesn't matter who is in charge all they will ever do is piss our money away.give them an dollar they spend a billion.
I agree, now that the lowlifes have realized they can live on unemployment extensions forever and welfare flow like candy from the Democrats the Republican party is done...
Kent- you're really a pitiful excuse for a human being if you actually believe the drivel you post.
So now Susan Rice is responsible for the unrest in the Congo? That particular bloodbath has been going on for over ten years, which puts its inception in the middle of the Bush years. I didn't notice Bush getting his panties in a twist over the problem. Nor did I see any evidence that the GOP was particularly concerned. But all of a sudden it's a big issue?
Does this remind you of the GOP alarm over the national debt? Deficit spending and the national debt were irrelevant so long as the GOP and Bush were running it up. It was only when the Dems took the White House that the GOP suddenly noticed that the debt was out of control.
I happen to believe that both of these things are issues. They were issues when the GOP was in charge and they're issues today, but the hypocrisy of the GOP in ignoring them until they could blame Obama is a little hard to stomach.
Call it what you will, a society has an obligation to provide avenues for upward mobility to all of its citizens. A society that creates a giant subclass of minimum wage workers effectively blocks upward mobility and guarantees the creation of a dictatorial, elitist aristocracy of wealth. It is a return to the Middle Ages when only a few had wealth and power and the rest of the population was serfs and peons, without hope for a better future or any kind of economic security.
Redistribution of wealth, when managed through taxation and tax incentives is a way of guaranteeing that those with initiative and ambition can rise to the top. A society that closes the doors to economic mobility is a society that stifles the contributions of those who are not born to the elite. It is also a society that enshrines the privilege of those born to wealth, even when they have no redeeming virtues or contributions to make. It actually guarantees a downward spiral by putting the mediocre offspring of the rich into positions of power and authority when they have no clue how to use their wealth or power in positive ways.
Being born rich does not make you smart, or compassionate, or talented or wise. It just makes you rich. It doesn't mean you should have a seat on the board. Inherited power or wealth, be it through kings and princes or wealth and celebrity is a sure path to destruction.
I'm amazed that the majority of liberals are either too ignorant, uneducated, or just don't care what happens as long as they get the handouts they feel they're entitled to. How do they not understand we have a spending problem with this idiot in office, not a tax problem. This is nothing more than Obama gaining brownie points that will be spun by the liberal biased media that he stuck it to those horrible rich people, who start companies, employ people, pay the 2nd highest corporate payroll tax rate in the world, donate the most to charities, pay the most $$$ in taxes already, and on and on.
They ought to put these meetings this on C_SPAN so we can see who doing what to whom. The last time meetings behind closed doors took place. We the American people got screwed with obamacare forced on us. With 3/4 billion dollars stolen from medicare. Seniors are going to suffer, taxes and insurance rates are going up are going up. People are going to loss jobs. People are going to have less money to spend. Plus Obama wants another blank check for stimulus properly without another budget.
Obamacare will promote constitutional principle of 'equal protection under the law' for the millions of those who haven't been able to afford healthcare. I can't believe there are still people who believe only the rich deserve health care.
PIG, you are a hateful pig indeed,
Only the rich deserve healthcare? What kind of BS is that? There are hard working Americans that pay astronomical amounts for the insurance they ARE able to get. I have even heard of families that had to CUT spending costs from their budget thus in order to pay the bills, they canceled their healthcare. Yet now through the impending regulations that will have EVERYONE being bent over in order to pay a tax (at this rate it will be for the air we breath too).
1% went to 2%... then what?
401k's being taxed because How dare anyone even think about saving their own money... we need more to give it to the people that CHOSE NOT to work... then what?
More brainwashing is going on... and yet the only ISSUE that is being HARPED on is the 2%... WTF!
joe-2849984.....you said:
What did Pigotry say that you deemed "hateful"?
Oh, well......given that joe-2849984 said the following back in March 2012:
.....and.....
All one must do to be considered "hateful" by joe-2849984 (and other "birthers") is be a democrat. After all, according to joe-2849984, democrats are ALL unemployed, lazy, socialist, minority unwed mothers who expect HIM to pay taxes so they can live in "luxury" (on food stamps).
joe-2849984.....Given that democrats won the last (POTUS) election by (according to you) granting economic gifts to a bunch of "takers", do you believe our DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC is the best form of government for this country?
Pigotry,
Does that rhyme with "idiotry"?
Up above, you said the people have spoken. You're right. They re-elected the Republican controlledl House of Representatives to protect us from Obama's worst abominations.
In 25.1, you make the incredible implication that "equal protection under the law" entitles everyone to health care, presumably paid for by someone else. Well, here's a clue. People in this country have an equal (and until ObamaCare fully kicks in, unlimited) right to buy all the health care they want.
America isn't a giant socialist commune - at least not yet. Here's another clue. Health care is really expensive. It costs roughly $6000/year/person and will be rising even faster thanks to ObamaCare. Just who do you think is going to pay for YOUR health care. Does someone owe it to you? How about a nice house and car? Does someone owe you that, too? How about a million-dollar bone-marrow transplant? Do you feel entitled to health care that costs more money than you'll earn in your lifetime? Or how about just more money than you'll pay in taxes your entire lifetime?
Please explain your sense of entitlement. I presume it goes beyond health care. Are you owed everything you need for a comfortable life? Is everyone? If so, let me know where I can get mine so I don't have to work any more.
In response to Pigotry
Only the rich deserve healthcare!!!! I am not rich but pay for our healthcare. My husband and I work! Honestly, a great majority of those that have healthcare are those that live off of the government!! That is unfair!!! I am so sick of the entitlement attitude!! That is what is ruining this country.....I am definately in agreement with helping the poor but can't stand the idea of my tax dollars going to those that take advantage of the system. That seems to be the "American Dream" now.
What is rich??? To those who are in the middle class and want to get out of it, start your own business.... Only have to put everything you own on the line, expect to earn less than $100,000 a year (since you have to keep money in the bank to cover future slow times), and unlike large companies like Buffetts you get to put your house on the line to get a bank loan (don't repay lose your house) So to those of you who think small business owners are RICH come join the fun. There is no excuse not to!!!
By the way, I supply/pay my employees with heath care. If it goes up much the extra may have to come out of their pay. After all they all get paid more than me, get paid even if I don't (and get to take a loan to make payroll) and get to go home at the end of the day without the worries...
Well…well. The Obama has finally begun his now-open for all to see and hear demands for a dictatorship over the [former] United States of America. A few days ago, Dictator-in-Chief Barack Hussein Obama laid out his demands to Congress for not yet pushing the current USSA (aka “Amerika”) and its people over the ostensible fiscal cliff.
These demands include: a doubling of his campaign “promise” to $1.6 Trillions in new taxes levied on the American people (which will decimate what’s left of the middle-class…his intent all along), an immediate funding (to Obama) of $50Billions (to be used for political purposes as he sees fit…in other words a “gift” to him personally for any political purposes he deems necessary) and personal unlimited sole authority to raise the USSA’s debt ceiling as he desires…whenever he wants. Translation: Obama now demands full dictatorial powers over the US economy and the elimination of Congressional authority—or even input—in all economic matters. In exchange, Obama said he “may” consider spending less of the taxpayers’ (aka “serfs”) money—but, he did not say it was a guarantee.
We discovered a day or so ago that these most recent ObamaDemands are not negotiable. Either Congress gives him full dictatorial control in this matter or he will 1. Bring the country to an immediate close or 2. Write another illegal non-binding Executive Order giving himself supremacy in this matter. As Congress has not yet challenged Obama on any of his EOs we can assume they will, also, remain silent on this one…should it be written.
Another “discovery” is that only Boehner (Obama’s new BFF) and Obama are “negotiating” behind closed doors. The American people—long ago—were shut out of their own government. Now Congress is being shut out, also. Sadly, most people will not accept that which is right in front of them…the truth that we have been living under a dictatorship for at least the last four years. The media won’t report it as, for some inexplicable reason, they rather like barbaric totalitarian governments. Besides, with the Benghazi assassinations being “okayed” by Obama, we already know the media support, if not endorse, murder from this “president” and they will protect and serve him no matter what additional atrocities he commits. And said new atrocities are coming, folks. The media stopped reporting the news years ago and now only deliver what the White House tells them to “report.” As a matter of record, Obama most recently met with Marxist channel MSNBC reporters privately 4 December, 2012.
Any one who still has the ability to think clearly and reason logically understands perfectly well what’s going on. We have been taken over by a criminal totalitarian syndicate that has no intention of letting go until every last liberty is destroyed, every perversion imaginable is employed (the only things Obama will allow to be employed by the way) and every last dollar is either spent or squeezed from our cold dead hands. With no one stopping him, Obama will nationalize everything—including us—for his own reprehensible purposes. Note: For those of you who grew up in the US government school system over the past 20-30 years, please Google USSR. Lenin, Karl Marx Communist Manifesto, Marx’s poems to Lucifer and Josef Stalin’s genocide. You will then get a truer picture of what you—and we—are now facing.
For those who say “Obama won this reelection” I say “garbage” and Obama won nothing. The election was “won” via massive voter fraud. In my last column “It’s Official: Obama Voter Fraud Reason for “Reelection”/growing Totalitarian Government”, I identify and sourced where much of the fraud was affected. Or, you may Google “massive voter fraud Obama reelection.” One of the old leaders of the USSR and one of Obama‘s personal favorites Josef Stalin wrote quite accurately of all totalitarians:
“It is enough that the people know there was an election. The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything”—Josef Stalin.
We cannot do anything about Obama’s adoring media—except not watch them—but, we may still be able to do something about Congress. If we do not vote out all of the House and Senate members who are hell-bent upon enslaving us—our slavery is assured. There is currently a conservative movement afoot in the House of Reps to replace Boehner as Speaker. In January, only 16 House members need to abstain from voting for Boehner as Speaker of the House. Despite his protestations to the contrary, Boehner has already signaled his intent to give Dictator-in-Chief Obama what he wants. I urge you to call and write your Congress man or woman and tell them not to vote for Boehner but, to abstain. In that way, the door will be opened for a conservative representative. At least that will give us a small margin of clout.
These have become some of the hardest days of many of our lives. Watching the complete dismantling of our country—including our military, liberties, transfer of our wealth overseas or into the pockets of those who have stolen not earned it—is only the beginning of the torture Obama has planned for the remnant left in what was once our country. If we continue to sit back and do nothing, our fate is already sealed and we have accepted the bondage Obama demands and that which is already upon us. Above all else and all others, remember by whose authority we are here and what our actions convey on multiple levels. By the way, look to Egypt’s Morsi as a foreshadowing of the still-emerging Obama.
“And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”—Matthew 16:19
I am a senior. I have CPMS, 3 kinds of arthritis, osteoporsous, and all the lovely surprises that come along with CPMS. I worked all my life. My medicare is NOT an entitlement. I earned every bit of it. Yes I am a bleeding heart demoncrat. I agree with health care for all citizens. I do not agree that illegal immigrants should be given carte blanche on health care. Not only do I have the medoicare I paid for but I pay for but a high dollar supplement so that I have 100% coverage. I spend an average of 3 weeks a year in the hospital total. I PAY for that service. If Obama would drop the provisions for illegals and legal 'migrant workers', drop their gateway to citizenship and free college for their kids, then the reFLUBicans would be more likely to cooperate. I also think that all those on WELFARE ( regardless of their state ) should be FORCED to give up 10% of their medical benefit dollar to help pay for what they use. Getting pregnant after you are on welfare is not an option. If you decide to increase the size of your family after I start supporting you, that child should be on your dime, not mine!
"Obamacare will promote constitutional principle of 'equal protection under the law' for the millions of those who haven't been able to afford healthcare. I can't believe there are still people who believe only the rich deserve health care."-Pig I wish you would read your posts before you submit them. Always playing on the extremes of the argument which is the easiest route for such a simple mind. Health care is not just for "the rich" it is for the working...not for the working to supply to those who chose not to.
I have a 16 year old daughter with a pre-existing condition. She's covered under my plan. Until the ACA was passed, it would be never covered under her plan, when she gets a job. Is THAT an "extreme of the argument"? Or was she just supposed to go bankrupt getting this covered?
Pre existing conditions by working Americans is a far cry from freeloaders who will NOT work, will NOT look for better employment, will NOT pay their medical bills because a new designer purse is on the market....Is that your daughter? NO, so focus your dramatics to a more relative argument. Feel free to reply with well thought out ironic "NOT's".
I know a young woman who had asthma when she was young. No healthcare for because of a pre existing condition. Now she has healthcare that she pays for and is a solid Democrat.
I am 62 and can not afford the $1,200 a month cost of American health care on my $1,600 a month Union pension. So all of you who do have health care insurance are paying for my trips to the ER. Have a nice day.
You should have tried harder when you were younger and done more with your life. Sorry, but you sound like a bitter old person who hates those who have succeeded. When Obamacare is implemented they'll turn you down at the ER.
Bitter? Not hardly. I'm laughing at you fools that think America's for profit health care system actually works. It is a REALLY bad deal and I refuse to pay for it. Do you know that America has about the same quality of health care as Slovenia and Costa Rica? And yet you pay more than twice as much as they do. That is not much bang for the buck.
imgur: The Simple Image Sharer
US Healthcare vs. the Rest of the World | Business Pundit
Health Care Spin — Again | FactCheck.org
Graphing The Cost of Health Care | Peltier Tech Blog | Excel Charts
Sorry, not true. I have over 75 employees and we have wonderful health benefits in place. I also have an office in Scotland with 12 employees. When ever someone has a somewhat serious issue, we fly them to the U.S., as their form of Obamacare is terrible. Now, if I were in your shoes, I have to imagine any form of government health care will be a welcomed asset. I don't mean to sound obstreperous, but anything is better than nothing, I would imagine.
I think a compromise will be the result. Might have been the plan all along. Needles to say, taxes need to go up' The debt wont pay itself. Its time to pay for the last decade. If this isnt a reminder of the folly of war, I dont know what is. Its always a losing proposition. Unless you own a company with contracts, or something...
The last four years are more resposible for our debt than the previous 200. I agree about wars that we can't afford, however.
s/b responsible.
Wake up, President George W. Bush had us from a surplus to -$10T exactly how is the last four years worse?
melis, try getting the facts, you are completely making this up.
Any recession started with bank failures is harder to fix. The Great Depression didn't end until 1945 after WWII. BTW, GOP tax cuts of the 1920s partly led to the Great Depression. Bush's recession also started with bank failure after the Bush tax cut led to stock bubble that burst. Most bank bailouts and TARP were done in 2008 when Bush was President with devastating effect on national debt. And Bush's 2 unfunded wars cost too much. I guess you know whose fault it is!!
alot of the bank failure problems started long before Bush.
Pig- Bush didn't cause the bubble to burst. If you make $30,000 per year, should you be "entitled" to a $500,000 mortgage? Should you have ever been approved by the banks? Should you have been smart enough to not overspend your means? Should you have chosen a fixed mortgage rather than an adjusting rate? Of course not! the current administration should bail you out, free of charge!
wish Boehner would go off the cliff....and to the single state that elected him, thanks a bunch (not)
Oh....not even a state..............southern Ohio.......
It normally takes more than one State to elect a member of Congress?
to have a discussion and come to agreements usually 2 people have to be in a room.... one can't be in Michigan at the cost of $3,000 per min. to fly there