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Subscribe to RSSAfter a weekend that generated skepticism about a possible deal to avert the 'fiscal cliff,' House Republicans presented a plan that includes $800 billion in new taxes, which is half of what the White House asked for. NBC's Chuck Todd reports.
Updated 4:50 p.m. ET -- Republicans offered up their own proposal to avert the impending “fiscal cliff” on Monday amid Democratic demands that the GOP match the Obama administration’s plan with one of their own.
In a letter to President Barack Obama, House Republican leaders outlined the contours of a deal they said would achieve a net savings of $2.2 trillion. The plan, which is based on fiscal commission Democratic co-chairman Erskine Bowles’s proposal to the super committee, would achieve these savings through revenue from tax reforms, health savings and discretionary spending cuts.
Recommended: Income tax rates just one piece of Obama proposal
"Going over the cliff will hurt our economy and hurt job creation in our country. It’s one of the reasons the day after the election I offered a concession to try and speed this process up. Unfortunately, the White House responded with their ‘La-La-Land’ offer that couldn't pass the House or Senate and was basically the president’s budget from last February," House Speaker John Boehner told reporters on Capitol Hill at a briefing detailing the plan.
Alex Wong / Getty Images
Speaker John Boehner speaks during a news conference, Nov. 30, 2012, on Capitol Hill.
"We could have responded in kind, but we decided not to do that. What we’re putting forth is a credible plan that deserves serious consideration by the White House and I would hope that they would respond in a timely and responsible way," the Ohio Republican added.
Dan Pfeiffer, the White House communications director, said the plan "does not meet the test of balance."
"Their plan includes nothing new and provides no details on which deductions they would eliminate, which loopholes they will close or which Medicare savings they would achieve," he said. "While the president is willing to compromise to get a significant, balanced deal and believes that compromise is readily available to Congress, he is not willing to compromise on the principles of fairness and balance that include asking the wealthiest to pay higher rates ... Until the Republicans in Congress are willing to get serious about asking the wealthiest to pay slightly higher tax rates, we won't be able to achieve a significant, balanced approach to reduce our deficit our nation needs."
The counter-offer coincides with Democratic demands that Republicans produce their own proposal to match the deal offered last week by the administration. That plan, presented to Republicans by Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner, called for $1.6 trillion in new revenues, savings from entitlement programs and new spending on unemployment insurance and investment projects. GOP leaders rejected the plan out-of-hand.
Still, the GOP proposal on Monday appears to move no further toward compromise on Obama’s central demand that tax rates be allowed to increase on the wealthiest Americans. While Republicans have agreed in principle that richer Americans can shoulder a greater share of the tax burden, they insist this must be achieved through ending loopholes and deductions, rather than raising rates.
The Republican plan, which is also backed by Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Ky., achieves its $2.2 trillion in several steps.
rep. Sander Levin, D-Mich., talks about the key points in President Barack Obama's fiscal cliff negotiation that are making Republicans wary.
As Republicans put it, they would raise $800 billion in new revenue through tax reform, $600 billion in health savings, $200 billion from changes to the Consumer Price Index, $300 billion in discretionary spending cuts, and another $300 billion in savings in mandatory spending. Many of the health savings track closely with the changes to Medicare first proposed in Wisconsin Rep. Paul Ryan’s budgets.
Republicans say the plan, using the Obama administration’s math, would achieve $4.6 trillion in savings.
It’s unclear, though, whether the Republican plan would move toward ending the stalemate around the fiscal cliff negotiations, with less than a month remaining until the automatic tax hikes and spending cuts are scheduled to snap into place on Jan. 1.
Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., pummeled his GOP colleagues earlier Monday afternoon, arguing that their failure to produce a counter-offer would only exacerbate the situation.
The new GOP plan reflects the posturing that has come to characterize these negotiations, separated just a month from an election which awarded Obama a second term and which kept Republicans in control of the House and Democrats in control of the Senate.
Also on Monday, the president continued his messaging offensive on Monday with a glossy campaign-style video highlighting the cost to families if the 2001 Bush-era tax cuts were allowed to expire at the end of this month. (Obama has argued they should be extended for all but the wealthiest 2 percent of U.S. households.)
Benjamin Myers / Reuters
Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner arrives at Capitol Building before a meeting with House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi in Washington, D.C., Nov. 29, 2012.
The president also took to Twitter to make the case for his own plan, answering questioners who used the informal 140-character medium to ask about the fiscal cliff negotiations.
Asked by one participant why he insists on increasing rates on the top 2 percent of earners rather than limiting deductions in order to raise revenues, the president replied that capping deductions alone would not raise adequate revenue.
"Not enough revenue, unless you end charitable deductions, etc. [L]ess revenue=more cuts in education," he wrote.
The president also dismissed the GOP notion that lower taxes for the very wealthy have a trickle-down effect in terms of new hires and a larger tax pool. "High end tax cuts do least for economic growth & cost almost $1T," he wrote. "Extending middle class cuts boosts consumer demand & growth"
Obama also argued that his administration cut spending by $1 trillion last year and that he is open to further "smart cuts" as long as they don't affect education or job growth.
NBC's Frank Thorp contributed to this report.
Leave a Comment:
This ought to be good...
Only question I have is what color crayon did they write it in...
I will give the Republicons credit for at finally at least putting their fantasies down on paper...
It's titled; "Fifty Shades of a Boehner".
Has to super suck to be a right winger these days... lmao
I'm sure they didn't mentions which specific loop holes and deductions they would eliminate either.
As ususal, they're long on rhetoric, but short on details.
LOL @ Feisty!
In all seriousness, if the numbers are what is reported, it sounds pretty good! We could sure use some deficit reduction to stimulate the economy!
Now, to all those republicans that say Obama will refuse anything that they offer, let's see what happens next!
Its the same crap they having talking about forever. You mean to tell me no republican has the guts to say to the leadership. This will get us no where. Keep it up republicans take us off the cliff that you made!
You hit on the nail. Bet it is vague on the details.
Protect the 1% at any cost. Obvious to everyone that they will hold the country hostage until they get their continued tax breaks. And after all, we haven't handed over every penny to them yet.
Yeah, that's the cost of democracy if you believe the GOP and their Ayn Rand philosophy. Pay the rich and thank them for whatever falls off of their table. C'mon folks. Get with the program. Line up on the right to get your copy of the right wing's bibles: Atlas Shrugged and Fountainhead. Unrestrained capitalism prevailas and the rest of the 98% can quietly march off to the poor farms they'll create for you.
Hmmm, a plan based on the Presidents self-appointed blue ribbon Erskine-Bowles committee.
Yeah, Democrats are sure to react to this as they do to the Presidents budgets.
A unanimous NO!
@ Redhead: You're a very hateful person aren't you? I thought Dems were supposed to be the party that cares about everyone but yet everyone of your posts are disparaging to the other side. What good does that do?
And you want the President to take you SERIOUSLY Boehner? Noticed the only program that wanted more of your whining over the weekend was Fox. Grow up already. The President ran on extending the tax cuts for the middle class and not the upper 2%. The country voted for it. Get on board!
Public grandstanding. There is as always stuff going on in the backroom and unfortunately the GOP has a separate backroom all to its own where the fear of facing Tea folks in the 2014 primaries has them by the balls.
So WCA ... want to tell us all where that 800 billion in revenues comes from? Some fantasy land of future stellar economic growth?
Let's review who is in La-La-Land. The approval rating of Congress is somewhere south of 15%. President Obama's approval rating is somewhere north of 54%. Stop drinking the Tang Mr. B - your true color keeps oozing through. You and your party are the ones living in La-La-Land.
To all you LIB naysayers, the article says that the GOP proposal was framed after the Bowles-Simpson commission report. Bowles was a DEM by the way.
Finally, some adult behavior. Thank you for your leadership Mr. Speaker. Simpson Bowles; seems to make a lot of sense.
Jrc1987
Caring about people is not about liking them.
Whoa...whoa...wait a minute!
Boehner REALLY used the term "the president's budget from last February." ? During this last campaign cycle, I could have sworn I heard more than a few Republicans claiming that President Obama had NEVER submitted a budget.
That would mean that they were
lying...never mind.Nah, BCWC, you research it.
Try writing a letter to Erskine Bowles and ask him.
Public Grandstanding?
Really?
You mean like the President has, literally, been doing in Philly and on the Internet for the past week?
Honest to God, you folks don't have a clue what you post, do you?
so the usual bunch of carps here are already trashing something they have yet to read.
Jrc1987 post 1.7
Please tell me your not another Republican apologist, sure Democrats are frustrated and you should be too. Your Republican Party has been deliberatly gumming up the gears of government since 2009. So in your own words "WHAT GOOD DOES THAT DO".
This Republican congress will go down in infamy as the worst congress since the civil war. They could have passed the Senate bill two weeks ago instead they have been playing politics and screwing up every bodies Christmas. The doubt about what congress will do or in this case NOT DO is effecting how many Americans spend their money. So once again the Republican/Tea Party plays politics with the lives of American citizens just to protect their wealthy employers.
If the super rich have enough extra cash to blanket our airwaves with millions and millions of dollars worth of worthless political advertising - they they can cough up cash for taxes.
These so called Titans of 21st Century industry and business obviously don't need the money if they are throwing it away on Political PACs.....which are essentially a gamble in the first place.
Seriously - they can't create jobs but they can gamble their money away with Karl Rove & Co and drive us all crazy in the process?
Blackcat: You don't have to like someone but you should treat them with respect. That goes for both sides of this argument. People need to grow up...and it's sad that the 25 year old in the group is pointing this out
I will bet that not one of the loopholes that are supposed to be closed are used by Romney. They want the middleclass will have to provide the increase in revenue and the 1% (2% ?) won't have to pay any more than they get away with now.
Let's see.... only closing 'loopholes' and still no details. And Simpson-Bowles contained tax rate hikes, which they have conveniently deleted from their offer.
But at least it's a starting point, so lets see just how serious they are about 'governing'...
If the tax rates on those making more than $250k aren't allowed to increase to the early GW Bush era rates, then we must allow the sequester to transpire - and give Grover Norquist a huge biotch slap to the face. Republicans are morons to allow a lobbyst to take them hostage in order to preserve the wealthiest American's historically low tax rates during the Great Recession where revenue has been desperately needed. The wealthy elitists profitted immensely from the two wars and are now trying to keep from paying a fair share of taxes on that illgotten wealth. Either the rich pay their fair share, or the middle class must unite and destroy their profit-making companies by refusing to buy anything not necessary to maintain life. Buy local from people you know whenever possible. Stop the tyranny!
Well, I'm really thrilled to see that after the election, the liberal posters on this thread haven't changed their positions one little bit! If this is an example of what you require for compromise, I would really hate to see what you really want.
Rather than actually leading, our re-elected cannot stray from the same old rhetoric, 'THEY are OUR problem. They don't understand what YOU need, I have the ANSWER, but THEY don't get it...'
The math does not work on BO's plan. He wants to hold the middle class (and small businesses) hostage. Guess what, he is the guy holding the bag...no manner of blame shuffling will change the fact BO is responsible for US, and if BO doesn't prevent the CLIFF, BO will be responsible. BO blamed everything on the Bush Presidency. Now BO has a chance to right the ship, and all his miserable arse can do is point fingers.
BOttom line is that we Americans BOtched.
Feisty.....instead of being a dumb broad, try finding out the plan before bashing republicans. If these two can't find a way to work together it doesn't matter....all will be screwed.
You people are absolutely brain washed on this site and all you do is bash republicans. This isn't fixing the country and to be honest it's making us grow further apart. THAT IS A FACT!
Keep claiming that the majority of the country wants all the things Obama wants. 52% might win the majority VOTE, but it is no where close to the majority of the country....far from it you dumb fuxs!
Grow up Jrc??? This crew? Hahaha never. These people are certifiable! They are all angry haters who are allowed to spew their drivel and it's perfectly fine, but if anyone else outside of their affiliation says anything suspect, they blow up like crazies. Hypocrites.
The circle-jerk continues...all we can do is wish them well!
"The plan also seeks $600 billion in health savings. One option, GOP aides said, would be raising the Medicare eligibility age from 65 to 67."
I'm glad to see some dialogue, but I think we're going to step off the fiscal curb - and I don't think it will be as detrimental as Speaker Boehner implies if action is taken quickly in 2013 to restore tax cuts for the bulk of the population (I expect Republicans will cooperate on that). Then, hopefully, we'll all get a good look at which of the automatic budget cuts Congress tries to defeat. That's where some interesting political lobbying pressure will be directed, and may create some opportunity for trade.
Cassie ...
Great post! I also agree with you regarding the 2% needing their money to create jobs. When on earth is that going to start GOP's??
Obama will not agree to anything that does not raise taxes on the wealthy; Bohener will not agree to a tax raise without reforms in welfare,and Government hiring(which has expanded greatly in the last 4 yearswith all the new Czars and their staff); i do not see any compromise at this time.
In a state where corruption abounds, laws must be very numerous. ~Tacitus
Hurry up and let US get it over with already! Obama's plan Boners plan neither one will resolve the fundamental problem of a a Hyper Bloated Deficit Based Bureaucratic Government that is more interested in Bailouts of its Masters on Wall Street than taking care of People of Main Street!
Don't you "Love" how easy we've got it in Wall Streets Amerika today? Hmm I think the "Greeks" may have something of a "Government + Bankster = Corruption" solution after all!
Impeach Obama in 2012 for the Criminal Conspiracy to Cover Up Murder, Secret CIA Prisons, and aid to Al Qaeda in Benghazi-Gate!
Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence.~Thomas Jefferson
a GOP plan with little details, and protecting tax breaks for the wealthy.
Nope this is just the same old crap the GOP has offered and its the same crap that lost them the election and will lose them the mid-terms.
Good luck GOP.. you are the problem.
Another mathematically challenged right winger...
No fixing the stuck on stupid crowd! ;o)
Says a ditto-head.... lmao!
I think this all boils down to who pays for that Lie Called the War in Iraq.
The interest alone on that money Bush borrowed from China to go steal the oil from Iraq, I mean for that war, is enough to triple the deficit every so often.
Either the rich can pay for it by contributing 4 cents more on the dollar, which rich folks are not arguing against, or Republicans can take all the food stamps they can find from all the poor families and maybe Republicans could sleep better at night knowing that someone had to get screwed, but it wasn't them.
I think Congress is having trouble because taxes would go up on them personally.
Obama admin plan is to generate revenue and/or savings of 2 trillion over the next 10 years. Well we over spend by 1 trillion per year so with his plan we are still gonna add another 8 trillion in debt.
Awesome.....that would make it a cool 24 trillion in national debt 10 years from now.
Ridiculous politicians. Talk about overspending. It is always to easy to spend like a fool when it is someone else's money, like the taxpayers.
I am gonna go ahead and bow out of this system now. I will just state right now that I do not agree with all the spending (that includes the incredibly over spending on military to provide security to the whole world including other wealthy countries that can watch their own back as far as I am concerned) and I will not pay incredibly higher taxes in the future to pay for the mistakes of our forefathers.
I am 33 and I don't agree. The older generations have ruined us.
Well, at least the Republicans have coughed up a counter proposal. Up to now we've seen nothing but insults and disparaging remarks from Boehner the blowhard while McConnell sits in the corner giggling and drooling like a demented old reprobate. This kind of rhetoric goes over well with the conservative base but it doesn't produce any concrete results.
I'm sure the proposal from the Republicans will fall far short of the mark as a serious attempt to resolve the impasse, but let's give them credit for putting something forward. They must be coming to the realization that insults and derision are not having the desired effect. If Boehner and his party of goons have come that far there is at least hope that they will evolve to adopt a mature attitude some day.
Interesting dilemma, if I were to write checks (without money in bank to cover them) what would happen to me?
Comes down to simply not spend what we do not collectively have. A responsible individual has to manage self, so a government should as well.
if congress is so bad why are they still there
In a state where corruption abounds, laws must be very numerous. ~Tacitus
Hurry up and let US get it over with already! Obama's plan Boners plan neither one will resolve the fundamental problem of a a Hyper Bloated Deficit Based Bureaucratic Government that is more interested in Bailouts of its Masters on Wall Street than taking care of People of Main Street!
Don't you "Love" how easy we've got it in Wall Streets Amerika today? Hmm I think the "Greeks" may have something of a "Government + Bankster = Corruption" solution after all!
Impeach Obama in 2012 for the Criminal Conspiracy to Cover Up Murder, Secret CIA Prisons, and aid to Al Qaeda in Benghazi-Gate!
Our country is now taking so steady a course as to show by what road it will pass to destruction, to wit: by consolidation of power first, and then corruption, its necessary consequence.~Thomas Jefferson
If Bush Didn't get impeached neither is Obama- By the way not a fan of either, Just stating facts.
the problem is the republican plan is not touching any of their pet projects. like defense spending which is to high currently with alot of waste in it. like foreign aid which ends up going to companies like haliburton for building overseas. like subsidies going to oil companies and wallstreet companies, and different corporations through out the US. no they want to cut from our seniors and disabled people first. i see that as a huge problem, hopefully others in this country will as well.
I knew when I saw "First Read" that I'd have to scroll through the 'regular' left wing trolls to post...sad.
The GOP has been attempting to get to a budget for over 1000 days. Where's the other 2 wings of this Nation?
1000 day old GOP BUDGET CUT LIST
Flood Control and Coastal Emergencies -$30M • Energy Efficiency and Renewable
Energy -$899M • Electricity Delivery and Energy Reliability -$49M • Nuclear
Energy -$169M • Fossil Energy Research -$31M • Clean Coal Technology -$18M •
Strategic Petroleum Reserve -$15M • Energy Information Administration -$34M •
Office of Science -$1.1B • Power Marketing Administrations -$52M • Department
of Treasury -$268M • Internal Revenue Service -$593M • Treasury Forfeiture Fund
-$338M • GSA Federal Buildings Fund -$1.7B • ONDCP -$69M • International Trade
Administration -$93M • Economic Development Assistance -$16M • Minority
Business Development Agency -$2M • National Institute of Standards and
Technology -$186M • NOAA -$336M • National Drug Intelligence Center -$11M • Law
Enforcement Wireless Communications -$52M • US Marshals Service -$10M • FBI
-$74M • State and Local Law Enforcement Assistance -$256M • Juvenile Justice
-$2.3M • COPS -$600M • NASA -$379M • NSF -$139M • Legal Services Corporation
-$75M • EPA -$1.6B • Food Safety and Inspection Services -$53M • Farm Service
Agency -$201M • Agriculture Research -$246M • Natural Resource Conservation
Service -$46M • Rural Development Programs -$237M • WIC -$758M • International
Food Aid grants -$544M • FDA -$220M • Land and Water Conservation Fund -$348M •
National Archives and Record Service -$20M • DOE Loan Guarantee Authority
-$1.4B • EPA ENERGY STAR -$7.4M • EPA GHG Reporting Registry -$9M • USGS -$27M
• EPA Cap and Trade Technical Assistance -$5M • EPA State and Local Air Quality
Management -$25M • Fish and Wildlife Service -$72M • Smithsonian -$7.3M •
National Park Service -$51M • Clean Water State Revolving Fund -$700M •
Drinking Water State Revolving Fund -$250M • EPA Brownfields -$48M • Forest
Service -$38M • National Endowment for the Arts -$6M • National Endowment for
the Humanities -$6M • Job Training Programs -$2B • Community Health Centers
-$1.3B • Maternal and Child Health Block Grants -$210M • Family Planning -$327M
• Poison Control Centers -$27M • CDC -$755M • NIH -$1B • Substance Abuse and
Mental Health Services -$96M • LIHEAP Contingency fund -$400M • Community
Services Block Grant -$405M • High Speed Rail -$1B • FAA Next Gen -$234M •
Amtrak -$224M • HUD Community Development Fund -$530M
It's sickening that the out of control spending...see the chart from MSNBC is NEVER addressed..not ever, by this administration...it's all about taking taking taking taking...more and more till nothing is left.
http://economywatch.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/03/15642061-facing-the-fiscal-cliff-american-taxpayers-have-had-it-easy-for-decades?threadId=3621885&commentId=72333855#c72333855
So far there's no sign of compromise, other than the compromises made by Democrats and the President last summer. Perhaps Republicans think that the longer they gamble with working class security, the fewer concessions they'll have to make.
I propose the following compromises: allow the Bush era tax cuts to expire for those in the highest brackets and increase the eligibility ages for medicare and social security. The entire burden should not fall on workers.
"That would mean that they were
lying...never mind"... says Bill in PDX. Yes, Bill, I am also truly shocked to discover that the Republican Partyleadership- um, top fat cats- had been less than totally candid with us, the taxpayers of the Productive class. But wait! There's more! Tracontech weighs in with: "Either the rich pay their fair share, or the middle class must unite and destroy their profit-making companies by refusing to buy anything not necessary to maintain life." That is the one thing that would make the vampire squids change their ways and come to Jesus pretty damned suddenly: Hit the bastards in the only place that matters to them, their bank accounts.It's no longer enough to have the numbers or the sheer force of being morally right! Look, ask yourself this: How did the Wal-Mart Black Friday strike go in my town? I haven't patronized that evil place in over four years, but I didn't even see any pickets at my local Wal- Mart. Media coverage: Get real! If the lickspittle, lapdog corporate media don't report it, it's still a non-event. Facebook and Twitter cannot yet counteract a conspiracy of silence by your local TV news provider.
The R's want to cut funding for unemployment benefits, but will not raise the rates on the top 2%. How on Earth can anybody with an income under a million a year possibly still believe that the R's are representing their interests?
I'm a right winger and things are fine. Could use a new president but that's ok for now. You seem to be the one with the bad attitude. You're probably an ugly and smelly and unhappy B!t(h. Ha, good luck with that.
and this is why neither side every give details, because the other bitches about details and when they give them they bitch about that. The Repubs could have called for 100% tax on the rich and the dems would have whined it wasn't enough.
and you have idiots like Bill talking about a budget that didn't get one vote in the senate.
word,
The hostage holding is being done by the GOP on the middle class. This is all about the rich.
Grover Norquist can kiss my a$$. After watching that weasel go on Meet The Press this weekend, I am convinced that he is a Nazi plant here to destroy the country.
The only thing worse than the lies he told is the fact that Duh-vid Gregory never called him on those lies, he just sat there and let him get away with his talking points. SHAME ON YOU DUH-VID!!!
1. Exactly what new revenue? 2. When you say new revenue you mean new taxes right? 3. What health care savings? You mean killing ACA right? 4. If not savings from ACA you mean cuts to Medicare? Or is it both? 5. Changes to the CPI? You mean cutting COLA increases to Social Security and other "entitlement freebies" as you call them? 6. Discretionary spending? Exactly what spending and is ANY of that from the military and/or it's contractors? 7. Exactly what mandatory spend cuts? Is any of that military spending? 9. Didn't you notice that the public rejected Paul Ryan in November along with his make believe budget numbers and false assumptions?
Nothing new here nothing explicit, everything vague, everything already rejected by the President, everything already rejected by the voters and JUST MORE GAMES!!!
Fox - The R's want to cut funding for unemployment benefits, but will not raise the rates on the top 2%. How on Earth can anybody with an income under a million a year possibly still believe that the R's are representing their interests?"
So continuing to spend more money then we have and making promises that can't possibly be met is representing the best interests of the poor and middle class? and raising the debt ceiling I mean eliminating the debt ceiling, the one tool the tax payers/voters have to check the politicians in check with our money is in the best interest of the poor and middle class?
Get Real neither of these two parties give a crap about anything but staying in power.
Actually the Republicans have come closer to the President's position - or what it was before the election - but the President, with his recent proposal, went far away from the Republican's previous position.
The question I have for you on the left is - do you want more revenue or do you want to symbolically "punish" the rich. That is to say, if you could get as much or more tax revenue through changing the rules on deductions that favor the wealthy would that be good with you or do you need to raise the tax rates instead?
I'll say this but once and for all ... the Right bashes the Left with vitriol and insults ... the Left bashes the Right with vitriol and insults ... those in the Middle bash the Right and the Left with vitriol and insults ... all sides complain about the other doing the same thing and ignore their own This is the nature of political posting boards ... just be happy there are not any dishes or fists to fling.
rosieodonnellsmoustace (or whatever your name is this week) . . .
Coming from someone that is banned repeatedly from newsvine and can't seem to stop coming back and insulting posters, that's quite rich.
This article was written only to say the republicans have a proposal. Nothing on here says exactly what they are willing to cut. I bet that's cuz republicans themselves did not specify! If this is like the Ryan plan that we already know that the voters rejected it so who is really in lala land here. Go over the cliff! It is the only way to snap these folks out of this fairy tale that tax cut for the rich produce jobs. The only jobs they produce are Congressional seats and accountants and lawyers.
"Unfortunately, the White House responded with their ‘La-La-Land’ offer..."
Just the sort of class(lessness) we've come to expect from Mr. Boehner, while he continues to try to foist off the same sort of nonsolutions to our economic woes that were repudiated by the voters in their overwhelming rejection of Citizen Romney and his youthful ward, Paul Ryan.
Proof positive that Doubleplusgood Duckspeaker Boehner is fit to be the voice of The Gang That Couldn't
ShootThink Straight.Bill - "The hostage holding is being done by the GOP on the middle class. This is all about the rich."
I could say the hostage holding being done the dems on the middle class. This is about buying votes
You control the Senate and the Executive branch and only need to convince a very few Repubs in the House, and you can't and you are blaming the other side on this?
justoneguy
I knew when I saw "First Read" that I'd have to scroll through the 'regular' left wing trolls to post...sad.
The GOP has been attempting to get to a budget for over 1000 days. Where's the other 2 wings of this Nation?
If you add all of these together they probably don't equal what we spent in defense spending. Start there first. Bring our troops home.
And BTW I am not a "crazy liberal". I didn't vote for Obama or Romney.
justoneguy you just proved my point they want to cut all the programs that benefit our citizens and the actual future growth of our nation. they do not want to touch the true wasted spending that is going to their buddies pockets.
I am sure the proposal is big on specifics and that Obama will, as he did before, use the specifics to demagogue the Republicans later.
I find Obamas campaign-style video more offensive than the unseen one he tried to blame for Benghazi!
By the way Barry, the election is over. Quit campaigning and get to work!
Layton - ????
Honest - what are you talking about? This is the one and only name I've had...relatively new to this...never been banned. Honestly, help me out with this one...
Here's the difference:
Ask yourself who benefits most from the billions spent on political advertizing? The obvious answer is media companies. Question #2: Who owns those media companies? The answer is, the wealthy.
So the wealthy spend money on advertizing campaigns which either can be considered an a relatively small investment to protect their wealth or in the case of the wealthy who actually own the media comes back directly to them in the way of profits.
In other words, many of the wealthy make even more money donating to funds which plow their donations back into the very companies they own and they get to propagandize their political positions to us at the same time.
Here's the response you get from an inner city Chicago uneducated idiot....
Another mathematically challenged right winger...
No fixing the stuck on stupid crowd! ;o)
Says a ditto-head.... lmao!
Feisty, can't you come back with basic logic instead of petty insults. It's hard for us to not insult you when this is the best response you can give. Listen lady...63,714,092 to 59,782,295 does not mean you have full support of the country. It gives you a slight edge and that is it. Honestly that number shows you how divided we are, not in favor of your president. Quit being a complete moron and grow up. Your rants show your age and lack of intelligence there, but keep trying because it's amusing!
So let me get this straight...the chief complaint about the President is this alleged 'my way or the highway'
Republicans continuously call the tax code a mess, implying they would have done away with these silly deductions some time ago.
You then make this proposal...so I guess my question is, where exactly is this tremendous pain that is supposedly felt by conservatives within this proposal that makes it otherwise a proposal worth consideration?
the gop plan is just the ryan plan all over again. shift the cost of medicade to the recipient and shift the cost of social security to the person recieving social security
A little fact the Dems might not want to hear, you only need to do something to convince 17 Reps in the house to PASS ANYTHING you want.
With some compromise how difficult should that be?
Dalilama10 [emphasis added below]
Oh, I see. Your language is intelligent and rational and designed not to drive wedges or provoke anger--and certainly not designed to drive us further apart. You're the only intelligent one in the room. Okay. Got it! Thanks for making that clear.
Spending cuts and tax increase are the only way. Yes close some loopholes but still have to get the top percent on the same page as the rest of the country or well middle class anyways, if not a little more. Also spending cuts are going to have to come from the military as well, just how it goes. But I agree that some entitlements and reforms in social programs are in order, plenty of freeloaders that deserve the boot. Time to trim the mailbox money.
In short unless these children in DC decided to play nice nothing will happen. I ride the middle most of the time, with progressive lean more often than not I suppose, but I will tell you what it pisses me off to no end to know that a group of our elected politicians are following a pledge that has no place in DC and in no way should have a baring on policy making. Slap in the face to the constitution that these so called self appointed/labeled patriots seem to overlook ever chance they can.
Stop the BS and get you $hit together DC!!!
It is time
Fiscal cliff...what a joke. This budget is nothing more than dealing with the flea on an elephant's back. We are tens of trillions of dollars in long-term, unfunded liabilities.
We will go bankrupt. It's just a matter of time.
Republican mantra:
Protect the top 1% at ALL costs!
Give control of Social Security to the Wall Street vultures ... because they're the only friends the GOP has left!
Turn Medicare into a voucher system, religate Americans to the mercy of the private insurance companies and allow hospitals to refuse service to anyone who cannot afford to pay at the door!
Slam the door on an extension of unemployment benefits!
To hell with our returning veterans! They got paid while they were serving, what the hell more do they expect!
Overturn ALL banking regulations and allow the to-big-to-fail banks to have free reign so they can finish the job of destroying the economy!
YOU GO, GOP!!! Keep up the good work, Teabaggers! HIP, HIP HOORAY, Boehner! You are making the 2014 mid-term elections a no-brainer for the people of this country. It'll be straight Democratic part votes from all of us you are screwing over so you can protect your 1% cronies!
Not particularly amusing, I find it rather sad that Fiesty's IQ and age are the same number.
Bob in KC, it seems to me that the Reps have yet to realize that they lost the election. They lost because the American public rejected their policies in regards to taxation and budget cuts. Yet they continue on as if Nov.6 never happened. It did happen, and in the words of your brilliant strategist Carl Rove "elections have consequences". It's time that the Republicans face these consequences.
It is Time = "Yes close some loopholes but still have to get the top percent on the same page as the rest of the country or well middle class anyways, if not a little more."
What does this even mean, the top percent already pays more than the middle class, as a percentage and as dollar value.
But that really isn't the issue, raises revenues will NEVER get us close to heading towards a balanced budget or something that even remotely is considered balanced.
Oh, I see. Your language is intelligent and rational and designed not to drive wedges or provoke anger--and certainly not designed to drive us further apart. You're the only intelligent one in the room. Okay. Got it! Thanks for making that clear.
You're welcome Jack. Try dealing with Feisty and her logic. It's enough to call someone out and insults are the only way to get her to speak. It does work both ways...welcome to reality!!!
Absolutely false. Economic growth and entitlement reform is the surest way out of this. Every economist worth his salt agrees that entitlements are on an unsustainable path. Modest reforms can slow that growth. Economic growth - as Reagan, Clinton and Bush found out - generates more tax revenue than any tax hike can do.
Psst spitfire18213 Bush wasn't caught Red Handed in a Criminal Conspiracy to Cover Up a Murder of a US Ambassador and then Pose for Publicity Photo's over his Dead Body just before an Election like Obama did, either.
Please remember the Republican President Richard Nixon also was Impeached after being Re-elected and there wasn't a Murdered Ambassador in Watergate!
And at least Richard Nixon had the Honor to RESIGN when caught!
Still nothing more than "Excuses" can be expected from a Corporate Supporting Poster......
“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.” ~ George Orwell, Animal Farm
" ... are already trashing something they have yet to read. ... "
You mean just like the Right does?
Huh. Imagine that.
Oh that's right. You don't need to read. You have Fox News, Bill O, Rush, and the rodeo clown Glen to do that for you. Must be nice to not to have to think for yourself.
Oh well. Enjoy Nevernever Land while you can. Someday you will have grow up. Or the rest of us hope you do.
thumper - they still control the House correct?
and in 2010 the Dems overwhelming lost the election and the President and Senate didn't do anything you are asking the other side to do now.
What does that make you? FYI it is starts with hypo.
D. Appel - You are correct, lets continue down the pay to Medicare bankruptcy in less than 10 years and Social security bankruptcy in less than 20. Those are wonderful ideas! because both of help the poor and middle class so much.
To be 40 years old and poor or middle class in 2012 is wonderful knowing full well most people want those people to get pretty close to nothing when it comes time to retirement.
The president AND the rest of the Democrat say " we are ready to compromise" yet they do just the opposite. It's amazing that so many of you don't see you own party as block heads as equal to the Republicans. Since the election Obama has it in his head the the Republicans MUST approve HIS budget because he was re-elected. He thinks he has a mandate...What a joke. The mandate was given in 2oo8 and 2010 when people were sent to Congress to STOP THE EXCESSIVE SPENDING. Obama has raised the debt to over 16 Trillion in his first 4 years and already is asking for 1.6 trillion in additional spebnding in his first month of his second term. The Republicans and some conservative Democrats were sent to Washington to knock this crap off. WE CAN NOT AFFORD TO GO DEEPER IN DEBT. Can't Obama get that through his head ? Although I would like to see Cogress get its act together and pass a "sound " budget, I most certainly do not want to see the same type of budgets passed we have seen for several years. Gaining tax revenue fro the upper 2% will not make much difference if spending keeps going up. Until the Whitre House gets the stupid idea we can spend our way out of debt I am fine with the Republicans saying no to bad budget proposals.
Both sides must compromise. the first step must come from Obama. all he has to do is drop the demand on the top 2% tax increase to show he is willing to compromise and things may start to move. Since he crammed Obamacare down the Republicans throats they are not will to be screwed over by him again.
Not only does this moron not have a grasp on basic math, it's geographically challenged as well... lmao
Roselle is a suburb of Chicago... dumb-ass!
Thanks for playing, we have some lovely parting gifts for you loser! ;o)
Well, at least a counter-proposal is a bit of a start, though the GOP will drag this out to the bitter end.
They still don't want to raise taxes on their wealthy friends, eh? No surprise.
People, put yourselves in the position of these individual GOP members of congress. The uber-wealthy corporate giants and Americans are putting the squeeze on them, threatening to end the financial kick-backs these politicians are getting to supplement their already substantial salaries and perks. That could mean these individuals might not get their new sailboat this year or buy that beachfront property they promised themselves for their next vacation.
Yes, a lot for the GOP to sacrifice just so that lowly citizens struggling for their daily bread can have a little extra.
Details, please!
The GOP, with their history of obstruction and then deflecting responsibility to the Administration are failing to grasp that "We the people" can understand that the offer they put on the table will likely not reflect what they have in mind for what will go on under the table.
GOP thought WASPs (White Anglo-Saxon Protestants) would win the election for them, especially if they reduced the number of elegible non-white and underpriviliged voters. It did not work. It served to help us see the GOP for what it is.
Mr. Speaker, did you learn everything you needed to know in kindergarten?
You nailed it Feisty. You nailed it correctly.
A filthy joke ......... from a filthy leaderless American political party. Pathetic.
" ... I find it rather sad that Fiesty's IQ and age are the same number. ... "
What I find even sadder is that, that makes Fiesty's I.Q. still significantly higher then that of the average person on the Right. The Right who's average I.Q. seems to be slightly smaller their shoe size.
No disrespect ment to Fiesty. My apologies if any was taken Ms Fiesty.
I want details on their "tax reform"
The last time the GOP put forth a "tax reform" plan (Romney's plan), it reduced the tax rate of the rich to less than 1%. I believe Romney himself would have paid 0.6% iirc. While at the same time, INCREASING taxes on the middle and lower class.
This wealth redistribution from the poor to the rich will not solve anything... in fact, it will simply make things worse.
If the GOP is serious, I want to see details on exactly what they will reform, and how much that will increase revenue from the wealthy. The fact that Romney, and every 1%er pay a smaller tax rate than middle class families is just wrong.
I CAN"T BELIEVE THESE WIMPS. "Tax Reform" and "closing loopholes" is their way of saying, "I can't raise tax rates because I'm afraid of Grover Norquist." WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON? GROVER NORQUIST'S TAX PLEDGE IS HOLDING THIS COUNTRY HOSTAGE. WHY ARE THEY AFRAID TO SAY IT? IT'S GD TREASON. They hit it hard yesterday on Meet the Press and even had the traitor on. He made it very clear that his Americans for Tax Reform will get anyone who signed this pledge, unelected at the next primary if they vote for a tax rate increase. He's not changing his position so the wimpy Republicans won't change their's.
If the Plutocrats want to continue to call them the Liberal Media, let them. But it's the duty of the press to make teh masses aware of the threats to this country. And Norquist is a threat. They need to keep the name Grover Norquist and his Tax Pledge in front of the American public until he is eliminated.
It is time for everyone to accept that the only fair tax will be a Gross Income Tax, where ALL sources of income are included in the taxable calculation at the same tax rate (including capital gains, estates, alimony, and all other sources of income), and ALL deductions, credits, subsidies, etc. are eliminated. All tax filings would be as individuals (yes, even corporations since the SCOTUS has ruled them to be persons) and that means no married filing, no dependents, etc. Each individual will list their total gross income on a simplified form, show the first $25K as tax free, then multiply the total income between $25,001 and $250K by 15%, the total income between $250,001 and $750K by 30%, and any income over $750K by 45%, subtract any withholdings from their wages, etc. and pay the difference. All capital gains can be taxed at the time the income is received from the sale of stocks, bonds, etc. Estates would be taxed at the time the estate is probated. All trust funds that are currently created to avoid taxes would be voided or taxed at the full rate when they are disbursed.
This plan sucks and so does Bonehead. Why is there this all important desire to protect the rich from paying a reasonable share of the revenue when, on average they pay less than the middle class rate due to loopholes etc. Are republicans only worried about where their next campaign contribution will be coming from? If you like the plan just keep voting for the party of the rich!
Republicans passed a budget. Where is it? Being obstructed in the Democrat controlled Senate. Where is the Senate budget? There is none. Who are the real obstructionists?
Romney was Mormon - not Protestant.
All your little theories are based on lies.
OK Bob in KC, John BONER, all you other Tea Baggers and Republicans,
Just another reminder, since you are all not smart enough to remember: YOU LOST THE ELECTION IN A LANDSLIDE. THE VAST MAJORITY DOES NOT WANT YOUR OUTDATED, PROTECT THE WEALTHY, POLICIES!!
George from Was. State,
You should know??????????????? Wing nut from the right!
Sorry...not good enough. HOW MUCH DID YOU INCREASE THE TAXES OF THE 2%?????
We already told you we are not going to consider the Ryan Medicare/Medicaid plan. What part of NO VOUCHERS do you not understand?
That fiscal cliff is looking better and better. I a little belt tightening, a little pinch for two years and before you know it, it's 2014 and an angry American public will toss those bozo's out of the house in record numbers. We retake the house, gain seats in the senate and THEN we'll see some Tax reform.
Keep it up John. You and your tea party buddies will kill the GOP once and for all and I couldn't be happier.
HEY, I'm selling fiscal cliff Parachutes for $9.99, Visa, Mastercard, Amex or Paypal, Sorry, no COD.
Hello Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL
I love how you can comment on things you have Zero clue about. What a dumb @ss you are. Obama's plan is simple, come up with some ridiculous plan that he knows the GOP will not go for then spin that sh!t to the media and let you idiots buy it! F*cking mindless pawns who cast there vote without WHY in blind hate.
YOU CANNOT BRING ABOUT PROSPERITY BY DISCOURAGING THRIFT.YOU CANNOT STRENGTHEN THE WEAK BY WEAKENING THE STRONG.
YOU CANNOT HELP THE WAGE EARNER BY PULLING DOWN THE WAGE PAYER.
YOU CANNOT FURTHER THE BROTHERHOOD OF MAN BY ENCOURAGING CLASS HATRED.
YOU CANNOT HELP THE POOR BY DESTROYING THE RICH
YOU CANNOT KEEP OUT OF TROUBLE BY SPENDING MORE THAN YOU EARN
YOU CANNOT BUILD CHARACTER AND COURAGE BY TAKING AWAY MAN'S INITIATIVE AND INDEPENDENCE
YOU CANNOT HELP MEN PERMANENTLY BY DOING FOR THEM WHAT THEY CAN DO AND SHOULD DO FOR THEMSELVES.
Abraham Lincoln
This is what you democratic idiots have forgotten!
Avenger,
Mr. President never drop the tax increase for the top 2%. I'm sick of my rich neighbor telling me he paid 9% in taxes with the loopholes while I paid 24%. Off with the head of Bonehead!
Skip - "What part of NO VOUCHERS do you not understand?"
Yes, we want our promises to go unfulfilled and bankrupt.
The top 1% pay an average of 24.1% in income taxes.
The top 5% pay an average of 20.46% in income taxes.
The middle 10 - 25% pay an average of 8.23% in income taxes.
The bottom 50% pay an average of 1.85% in income taxes.
Your whole belief system is based on a lie.
Obama is running 1.2 trillion dollar deficits and his lame proposal spans 10 years. 400 billion in spending cuts, 40 billion per year. Wow! 1.2 trillion in increased taxes, a whole 120 billion per year. The country is saved! What a total joke that we have politicians and their supporters touting this as some sort of responsible proposal when we are running annual deficits of 1.2 trillion. Obama could lay out his campaign rhetoric of 4.4 trillion over the next 10 years and our national debt will still topple the 20 trillion mark before he leaves office. There is nothing serious about the Obama proposal. We need term limits for congress, a totally new tax code, and a balanced budget amendment. Washington has never solved any of the problems they create, and these proposals from both party's is just more kicking the can down the road.
clwyd - you paid 24%?
Unless you made WELL over 150K, you are a liar!
One thing that nobody seems to be talking about is corporate taxes. I hear from time to time stories about how corporation x made x millions in year xxxx and paid zero in taxes. Let's do something about that. How about starting by eliminating the oil depletion allowance? No doubt, some of these companies will threaten to move their operations offshore. If they do, threaten to withdraw whatever licences, etc, they need to do business here
We need emergency money to fix our education system. Taxing the top 2% to fix it could ruin their gold mine of stupid tea bag voters. My cat has a better grasp on statistics than most HS grads.
If Obama was ACTUALLY a "leader" he would be in Washington D.C. discussing with the Republicans and trying to find a compromise. But NOOOOOOOOO Obama is a Campaigner in Chief. Not a surprise Obama has never accomplished anything positive in his entire life and never has worked for a private company in his life. So he has NO idea how a company, or economy, works. Just being a bully his entire life. Sorry doesn't work that way when you get to the "grown up" club.
So he goes out to "bully" like he did all his life. He is a "bully". He is "scum". Obama, you have a chance to ACT like a leader for the first time in your life. Come do your freakin' job!! Show the country you ACTUALLY give a damn about the country and the people. Your "take it or leave it" attitude is the quintessential "bully" type behavior. Be a man for the first time in your life. Be a leader for the first time in your life. And YOU decide if you want taxes to rise on EVERYBODY or not.
I have no doubt Simpson-Bowles will play a part but the fact that part of the Republican Plan is based on it doesn't mean much. Bear in mind that Simpson-Bowles was utterly rejected by the Republicans in Congress. They haven't gotten specific enough to know what they are really proposing but I have no doubt if it's based on Simpson-Bowles...it's cherry-picked.
eric1964
OK 'eric' you're in for no cuts, but more tax....typical.
Great. GE got out of paying any taxes on the billion they made because of Obama's green initiative that gave them huge tax credits for making turbines and CFL bulbs. Your guy Obama - friend of big business!
@Avenger post 1.77: There are many more moderates in the Democratic party (we call ourselves Blue Dogs) than what many people suppose, and there would be a whole lot more if they had not given in to the pressure to vote for Obamacare (for which they paid the price in 2010). Does anyone really believe that 2300 pages of Obamacare were actually written in the first 3 months of his term??? No, most of this plan was already on the shelf...written by some liberal think tank...dusted off and then submitted. This is why Nancy Pelosi and many others couldn't speak to what was in it (they really didn't know, they didn't write it).
Avenger, this is now past history. The Republicans should be complemented on this step they have taken...it moves the dialogue along...but it is only a step. Now both parties need to determine what parts of each proposal they mutually agree on and work on adding more.
All the moderates (and independents) know that the tax cuts for the middle-class that the Obama administration is so fiercely fighting for are BUSH tax cuts...when these were passed the progressives (the left) never gave him any credit for this...but now that they are about to expire....
If more and more Democrats and Republicans would move toward the middle....we can all get this country moving again!
Of the 7 commission members to vote against it 4 were Democrats and 3 were Republican.
Your lies are noted.
No apologies necessary George!
We're all good! ☺
Any and all would do well to go back to the story and follow the link through to the original article which includes a link to the PDF of the GOP proposal. As so many have already concluded the proposal is just 3 pages in its entirety, page three is pretty much just a signature page for Boehner, Cantor, Ryan et al, page one is basically a cover page saying 'Hey there is a problem and the following is our plan to address the problem. Page two, just as many have already guessed is absent any details whatsoever and basically a general claim that 'by closing some loopholes and eliminating some deductions we can increase revenues without raising the "tax rate". Naturally there are no details whatsoever with regard to suggestions as to what loopholes might be closed or what deductions eliminated or modified and there is certainly not enough information for the CBO to even score the net effects or for any reasonable minded person to have a clue just what it is the GOP is ACTUALLY proposing.
On the other hand the Obama administration put for a very detailed 256 page proposal over 10 months ago which the CBO scored quite favorably and it actually makes sense.
Hey GOP I guess you did not hear when said we did not want your plan when we did not vote ROMNEY in..... I guess you want to see how many more can be replaced in 2 years..... President Obama it is time to Sequester CONGRESS until this issue is resolved..... Do not allow them to play around with anything else until they do..... Guess their family's will have to have Christmas & New Years Eve with out them though if you do.....
That was his budget which got zero votes from either Democrats or Republicans in both the House and Senate. Great plan that was :)
Dear capital hill, every last one of you deserves to lose their seats for dereliction of duty.
Adults of America, stop electing imbeciles that show the maturity of toddlers.
We got two plans now.... for cuts and revenue... I say as long as were not voucher-ing away the medicare we been paying for out of our paychecks since we started working... we should use both plans to clean up this mess before the next generation gets here. Obama's Revenue plan and GoP Cuts.
Mire - you do know that Medicare will be bankrupt in less than 10 years, in case you do not know what that means, it means it won't be able to pay for what was promised.
So lets continue down that path? or are you saying taxing the rich will pay for that, and SS, and defense, and every other Government program?
You can't make this stuff up. . . .
After paying into a GOVERNMENT MANDATED, pre-paid health care plan (Medicare) and a GOVERNMENT MANDATED retirement plan (Social Security) for 47 years, having been given NO CHOICE regarding my participation, the Republicans NOW WANT TO CHANGE THE CONTRACT?!? I call bull@!$%#!
Don't tell me that you have forced my participation for nearly half a decade and NOW you want me to wait 'a few more years' until you start to give me back what I have paid in?!?!? The deal the government made with us was that we paid in and, at age 62 or 65, we would start getting some of what we paid into the programs back.
Hell, why not just raise the retirement age to 90? You could pretty much guarantee that the programs would be solvent if you did that, right?
Here's an idea. Give up some of your pet pocket-lining spending and put the money you stole from Social Security back! Get off your dead asses and audit the books of the doctors, hospitals and other medical service providers to find the Medicare fraud. DO NOT, HOWEVER, THINK THAT YOU CAN CHANGE THE GAME NOW. You screwed up and mismanaged the funds ... you had damned well better fix it and NOT by punishing the people who have been forced to pay in all these years.
End the multiple-retirement benefit systems (one for the government employees and social security/medicare for those working in the private sector). We in the private sector have to bust our asses to pay for both programs. If everyone were paying into social security and medicare then it would be amply solvent. Why the hell should there be two (or more) programs. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Stop spending money on the military-industrial machine. Christ, we ALL know that it is nothing more than a corporate welfare program to make a lot of money for a select few people. Americans aren't that stupid. We have tolerated it, up until now, because it didn't negativey impact us to the extent that we were taking a financial nose dive. Now we are ... so it's time to pull the plug.
We do not need to be supplimenting big oil. They're doing just fine without us handling them our tax dollars.
We need to stop handing our tax dollars over to other countries to get them to like us. In my life I have found that if I'm honest and treat others with respect, I have them as friends ... I don't have to pay for their friendship. Screw giving our tax dollars out to buy friendships. If they want to be friends with us, great! If not, that's okay ... just stay out of our playground and don't try to take our toys.
Mostly we need term limits. Look, people, a seat in the House or the Senate was supposed to be a civic duty. It was a hardship, but an honor. Now it has become a welfare program for a select few.
Campaign finance reform is needed NOW! We need to stop the obscene bribery called campaign contributions. And, guess what ... companies ARE NOT PEOPLE!!! If these corporations are "people" I guess that means NO MORE CORPORATE VEIL for the CEOs to hide behind when they get sued! Well, that's certainly interesting, isn't it? We can go after their personal @!$%# as well as the corporate assets!
If the top earners didn't have tax loopholes allowing them to shelter over half of their income prior to paying taxes, I would agree that they should not have a percentage increase BUT, since those loopholes are NEVER REALLY ON ANY GOP TABLE (they pay lip-service to it, but NEVER follow through), then an increase is well warranted.
If the GOP / Republicans / Teabaggers don't get off their dead asses and take care of the 98% of the citizens of this country ... I hope they can rely on the 2% watch their backs!
" Jrc1987 @ Redhead: You're a very hateful person aren't you?
I thought Dems were supposed to be the party that cares about everyone but
yet everyone of your posts are disparaging to the other side.
What good does that do?"
JRC - YOU are a very disingenuous person aren't you ?
YOU THOUGHT...? How quaint AND refreshing that you are still able to
after the years of being an echo chamber for Rush, Beck etc....
well you thought WRONG, we Liberals do NOT care about everybody..
we care about those who NEED CARE just like we afford RESPECT to those that earn it ...not EVERYBODY .
...as for "what good does that do"...
let me ask you...what good does your post do ?
Does EVERY post have to DO GOOD in your world ?
Admit that you are only here on a LIBERAL SITE to satisfy you addiction to contention & combativeness...
admit you only come here to "do battle"...do that first & then find a site that allows conservatives to voice their opinions...unlike FOX where your opinion has been dispensed with to save money .
You see at FOX it's about THE MONEY not conservatism or conservative people & their opinions .
I find the whole thing very interesting. There is no such thing as a fiscal cliff - it is in the imagination of Boehner and he want us to be afraid --- very afraid. At this juncture President Obama has nothing to lose, but the House and Senate do stand to lose. If the tax cuts expire, then we'll all face a tax increase and the defense budget will also have much needed cuts. I am just going to sit back and enjoy the show.
Understand, simply raising the tax rate on the upper 2% of wage earners will not produce more revenue. They will simply use the existing deductions and write-offs (loopholes) to lower their taxable income. By eliminating or modifying these deductions and write-offs (loopholes), an increase in revenue can be achieved without raising tax rates. If done correctly, modifications can result in increased revenue to the Feds, or will spur additional investments from companies into their own businesses in the form of either new hiring or increased purchases (which result in more revenue to other companies to either hire and/or increase revenue to other employers etc...). Both of which benefit the private sector and encourage growth. And, if you really think the guts of the plan have been fully described in this piece, and are 'Calling out' the Republicans over lack of details, you are nothing but a troll and have nothing of any value to contribute to what should be a civil debate.
"If more and more Democrats and Republicans would move toward the middle....we can all get this country moving again!"
That is what got us into this mess in the first place, I will vote for your spending (entitlement) if you vote for my spending (Defense).
I will pretend to raise revenues later (tax the rich) and you pretend to cut spending later (?), promises.
Lets pretend to balance the General budget by borrowing from Social security and retirement programs. (Newt and Bill)
So lets meet in the middle and kick can down the road further.
@Tom
Of course we will not solve all of our problems with one piece of legislation and modification, nor do we have the time to at this point, but that doesn't mean we should take steps towards reducing our debt.
The wealthy and large corporations are the only ones sitting on large sums of money that can be taxed and have a high impact on consumer demand and spending. When the economy gets back on track to where the middle class can afford to pay more taxes without being kicked into poverty and the need for government assistance, then we can assess taxing them more too.
If you kick the floor out from under the middle and lower class with taxes they can't afford, things will only get worse. If people can't get the assistance they need to house themselves and feed themselves even with a job, expect a increase of crime and violence.
New republican plan to save the Rich, film at eleven, twelve, one, two, three...........(wash rinse repeat). If people don't think that America is worth paying for, please leave. remember when u guys used to tell me "America, love it or leave it"???? there it is.
Here we go again. The same do nothing administration puts forth the same plan that not even his own democratic controlled senate would vote for last year. Not that the GOP has put together a viable plan and we will see what happens. I fear 4 more years because Obama's ideaology is all about Obama and not about the Country. Thanks all you politically and fiscally ignorant people that voted for him. Got your parachute?
As I've said before, you can call yourself anything you like but no one believes you are a moderate democrat. The basis of Obamacare (Affordable Care Act) was developed by Republicans.
"In 1989, Stuart Butler of the Heritage Foundation (not exactly a liberal think tank) proposed a plan he called "Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans." Stuart's plan included a provision to "mandate all households to obtain adequate insurance," which he framed explicitly as a way to address the "free rider" problem and employer mandates."
This was the framework for the Affordable Care Act. Nice try though...and thank you for playing.
Your numbers only count Federal income taxes. The majority of taxes including payroll, sales, property, personal property, gas etc. make up the majority of tax revenue and are mostly paid by the 99%. Every first world country in the world has a progressive tax system. If you limited collecting equally it would require taxes be set at what the poorest could afford to pay. You'd make Zimbabwe look prosperous by comparison.
Few of those on the right really care if the taxes on those at the top raise 4% they simply repeat Limbaugh and the talking heads on Faux. The top 2% is a target because they can pay a 4% increase without a hardship and most Republicans agree. According to polls the majority of Americans including Republicans believe the top 2% should pay more by a 2 to 1 majority. The fact Republican leadership ignores this tells us they no longer represent their constituents they represent those who've bought them. Like Sheldon and the Koch brothers.
full speed ahead! hit the cliff what doesnt kill you makes you stronger! might be a good thing to make people more self suffiucent. simple solution stop spending!
Bureau Of Labor Statistics: Government Employment Has Decreased By 608,000 Since Feb. 2009. According to data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, government employment has decreased by 608,000 from February 2009 through April 2012
Another lie! Easily dismissed with 5 minutes of searching! Don't any righties know how to use the Internet?
It took Democrats to make it into a 2000 page monstrosity - full of mandates and taxes and leaving much of the interpretation to HHS bureaucrats. You built it. You own it. Don't try stick it to Republicans when zero Republicans were involved in writing it and none voted for it.
@American Girl
Said,
"Congress is having trouble because taxes would go up on them personally."
I say AMEN.
Now is when previous presidents such at Reagan and Clinton have shown leadership and found the compromise to make things work.
Guess we will see if Obama qualifys as a leader or a continued wedge?
We've never had a country so divided and a President so unwilling to work with the others.
Clinton did it, Reagan did it.
Obama must learn from them.
The republicans counter the ridiculous plan of the president by presenting Mitt Romney exact version and he lost.
Here it is, spending has to be cut, revenue needs to be increased. Until those two things happen we will continue to amass a deficit. All tax breaks should end, then we can stop arguing and the world won't end for anyone. Spending needs to be cut across the board, and we need elected officials that don't sign stupid oaths to people that wrote them at the age of twelve (Norquist).
The ACA was lobbied for by the republicans until Obama took it up, its purely a political game right now. If you spend your days listening to Rush Limbaugh you are likely not going to vote for what is in your best interest. Redistribution to the top 1% has accomplished what in ten years? A massive deficit and a dying middle class. Balance has to be restored.
Here's an idea (if we are really serious about the deficit) enact the plans from BOTH SIDES !!!
Raise the tax rates, close the loop holes AND make the spending cuts.
The debt is $ 16 TRILLION and counting. It grows greater every day.
Only by raising tax rates, cutting loop holes and making spending cuts can we achieve a balanced budget and pay off the debt.
Is that Federal Government employment or ALL government employment? Of course the answer is all government employment. Clearly the government hiring by Czars and their staffs are Federal employees whereas the majority of government employment cuts have come from states and municipalities - they being more affected by budgetary woes.
I am not saying that Federal government has increased - I don't know for sure but your figures don't address that.
Raising Medicare’s age: Saves feds $5.7 billion, costs you $11.4 billion
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/03/raising-medicares-age-saves-feds-5-7-billion-costs-you-11-4-billion/?wprss=rss_economy&tid=pp_widget
Marcus the key to cooperation is having two parties that are willing to do so, Clinton didn't manage it until Gingrich was no longer the speaker and he had someone to work with. Reagan raised taxes 13 times, sold arms to Iran and is an actor. I wish people would stop making that man sound like a God, policies rarely have a direct and immediate effect on people. Both parties have made major policy mistakes that we need to learn from and not continue to repeat.
Any agreement that lets 49% of the population get by with paying no tax at all is bulls**t! I don't care how little you make, if you're receiving any government benefits at all (which most all of you are), you need to fork over something, small as it might be. Demanding that any group in society shoulder the cost of the public welfare teat is laughable....we simply aren't gonna do it....no matter what Emporer Obama wants!
@ JohnLaz
"I am 33 and I don't agree. The older generations have ruined us".
Really?? Just...really?? Another of today's younger generation having a quarter-life crisis. What's the matter? Life not as easy as mummy and daddy said it would be? Not getting all your wants in life because...(dramatic pause)...they were wrong in saying you were perfect when you were a child? Lord...grow up and deal with reality. Life is hard. Your problems are no worse than any other generations, just different.
A better idea is to GROW THE ECONOMY!!!!! That will bring in more revenue that any tax increase can.
The other problem with your solution (Which Republicans well know) is that tax increases always come right away - spending cuts tend to be promises that Democrats seldom keep or change the next year.
Tom - don't get me wrong I agree with you on spending, we have to make some cuts and balance the budget is someway (not having some type of line in the sand so to speak makes you lose all site of financial responsibility), but the top is not paying its fair share. Dollar wise you are right they pay the most but they also realize alot of income that isn't covered and their percentage is much lower, plus all the extra deductions and loopholes they get to take advantage of. If not a little more, I meant they may need to shoulder a slightly higher rate just like was done before the Regan years. Not substantially but they can afford it right now. Something has to be done to get those with the money to stop sitting on it and invest it again. But you are right raises alone won't do a damn thing.
Q22 - you and me are kinda thinking the same route there to. Like I said about spending cuts and mailbox money. We need the programs but there have got to be some serious reforms. I agree fully. To many on the system and to many milking it and not trying to better themselves. But like I said above we've got to increase some revenues and raising rate on the top will encourage them to start investing and spending more. Trickle down doesn't work end of debate. But stimulating those with money to invest it less it be taxed that will then stimulate economic growth which I agree is the best route. But we have to get some fairness back and do what we can to close this gap and protect the backbone which is the middle class.
Again it is not one way or the other here. It is a multi prong approach and most likely staged in one way or another as well. But unless these fools in DC work together we all can debate until our hearts are content and it won't change a thing.
Lets face it the real welfare queens are the young libertarians who are disappointed that Obama hasn't handed them life on a platter. I went to college, I got a degree worth something and got a job. Expecting a president to give you everything because you have a dumb liberal arts degree worth nothing is foolish and you won't get anything better out of either party.
When looking up the definition of "grasping for straws" does your photo pop up?
At no time did I claim Democrats approved Simpson-Bowels ...they rejected it. But since the Republicans also rejected it and are now touting their "compromise" being based on it, that simply plays to my point.
Please point out my specific lies...or STFU!
Show me historically where republicans have been better about spending Q22? Reality hasn't backed them on this count.
I cannot understand people's problem to limiting deductions. The left's claim is that the rich need to pay their fair share. 17% tax rates by Buffet and Romney as compared to middle class tax rates is tax-morally wrong.
Obama's answer? Raise Federal Income tax rates 4%, which Romney and Buffet don't pay.
What is wrong with raising Buffet's and Romney's taxes 10% by changing capital gains rates, and eliminating deductions, while maintaining current tax rates on small business by NOT touching federal income tax?
I just don't get you people.
A message to you Democrat Liberals - YOUR PRESIDENT IS LYING !
Obama wants to raise rates about $250k. The GOP wants to develop the same revenue by a vague "eliminating deductions." Why would eliminating deductions be preferable to them? Answer, because it could take the money from the middle class instead of the wealthy. They want to take if from people who deduct their mortgage, or their kids education, or health costs, or 401k savings contribution (that's a tax deduction), or charity contributions, or things like that.
Come on. How dumb do they think we are? If the concern is economic impact of tax hikes, the economic impact is much worse to raise taxes on the broad consumer than it is to raise taxes on money destined for Swiss bank accounts and Italian Ferraris. This shows their whole "tax increases are bad for the economy" to be a hypocritial front for the truth that "we are funded by the 1% for the profit of the 1% and the weakening of the American worker."
The ONLY REAL FIX is to Raise Revenue, by Bringing Back Jobs to US Citizens who Pay Income Tax.
Massive cutting just puts more people on unemployment, which just depresses the economy even further.
Returning private sector jobs to American Citizens will provide income tax revenue to OUR Government versus our government having to pay unemployment benefits to those who would be jobless instead. We need our elected officials to Start Protecting American Jobs and do whatever it takes to bring back the jobs they let go. We need leaders who will actually stand up for the American people.
The bottom line is that “Our Government” has to protect domestic industry and the jobs that those industries provide. If they do that, the rest will take care of itself.
We may have to pay a bit more for products made here in the USA by US citizens, but at least we'll still have jobs and a future for our children.
Wouldn't it be More Productive if Our Elected Leaders Started Working Together as AMERICANS for AMERICANS and AMERICA, instead of just bickering, stalling and posturing for the next election as democrats and republicans! The American People have had it with this unproductive BS! The way that both parties having been operating for years just stinks! Neither party has really been looking out for the best interests of the US Citizens who elect them and who they're supposed to represent.
Both parties have sold out the bulk of the American citizens, who they're supposed to represent, by allowing the "out-sourcing" floodgates to open wider and wider without taking any sensible measures to stem the tide.
It shouldn't be all about Democrats or Republicans! It should be about Americans, especially our elected officials, doing the right thing for our country and its citizens. All the single-minded, left versus right, ideological one dimensional bull has got to go!
Both parties need to start working together and actually start doing something to fix the real problems in our country like "out-sourcing", illegal immigration, the out of control costs of health care insurance and our reliance on foreign fuel. If they don't start working together making progress by the next election, American citizens should run a nation-wide campaign to vote out all incumbents regardless of party to send the message.
Wow, the Selfish Right is out in full force today, throwing the same BS rhetoric around that they threw before they lost the election...they just don't stop. And the hate.... "Welfare Queens", "The 47% are lazy".....WTF.
The Dow loses $60 and the day traders get cranky and want to blame it on the poor....those on welfare that get $600/mo. Now that's what I call The Gravy Train. Who wouldn't want to go on welfare if you can make that kind of jack.
Really??? You state that Simpson Bowles was UTTERLY REJECTED BY REPUBLICANS yet, in truth, Republicans approved it by two thirds. If Democrats voted for it by the same two thirds majority as the Republicans it would have passed. That Republicans utterly rejected Simpson Bowles is a lie.
Face it - EVERYONE has been better about spending than Obama. EVERYONE!!!!
How dumb do they think we are? Even dumber than they don't yet realize they are! Look, they claim they want to do away with tax deduction right? Won't be specific, right? But right out of the gate they say Capital Gains are off the table...and their rank and file support that! That's how dumb they don't yet realize they are.
A Republican (like)...pseudo-Democrat asked the question (to which he should have already had the answer), I just helped him out with the correction to his incorrect presumption. And you're right, Republicans didn't write it...they did however, pre-plan it in their alternative to HilleryCare ...ROFLMAO
Interpretation: "I won, get over it, my way or take the highway."
Must really be bad for the LWNJ's sitting on the pig pin fence ready to lose their balance and fall into the "Progressive" mud.
Ido, Foo!
IQ 22,
Yup! bush's $4,000,000,000,000 for body bags for 7,200 American soldiers for NOTHING!
Simpson-Bowles never made it to a Congressional vote. Four Democrats voted against it and three Republicans voted against it. If the commission was made up of 18 members, equal parts Republicans and Democrats, your two thirds doesn't really add up does it?
Still waiting for the lie...
Johnny John.
A message fro you right wing nuts. Your party sucks!
I wish liberals would stop with this lie that closing loopholes effects the middle class more than the rich... The Tax Policy Center has a study (you know, the group the left loves cause they disparaged Romney's plan?!?) that shows if you cap deductions at 25k or 50k a year, 96% of it would be hits on the upper 2% with the rest being in the upper 5%. IT is a pure tax hike on the top 5% and essentially the top 2%. Stop this BS that it would effect the "middle class". To get a 25k deduction for mortgage interest, your house to has be nearly over a million in mortgage debt to achieve 20k in interest deductions, this is not the middle class. Stop with your ignorance, it makes you look silly.
Liberals continue to lie about policy. It is astounding.
@MUW 1.74
More than 109,000 of our soldiers and civilians have DIED BECAUSE GEORGE W. BUSH and his band of merry thieves LIED ABOUT WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION and sent us into a war that was nothing more than a way for them (and their cronies) to make lots of money, to bolster the coffers of the military-industrial complex, attempt to gain control over the resources of other countries, offer up a little pay-back to people who tried to hurt his daddy, keep all of America in a state of fear and continue to force more and more of the population of America into the bonds of economic slavery.
Bush, Cheney and the rest should have been tried for high treason and crimes against humanity. Don't even TRY to defend them or compare them to decent human beings. They are evil; pure & simple. The legacy from "W"; two unfunded wars that threw our nation onto the ledge of a financial depression, dropping regulations on the banking industry so it could legally steal the savings of our citizens, THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS OUT OF WORK and turning the clock back on personal liberties at least 20 years.
And W is your hero, is he? How sick.
Feisty -- I don't always agree with your positions, but you do get people to think about the possible outcomes. When you don't have money to make everyday purchases, do you increase your spending or decrease your spending? Do you cut back on questionable purchases or still continue to spend what doesn't exist? Can a person SPEND themselves out of debt? If you have a family, do you want to make things better for their futures or do you want them to suffer for your over spending now? Like any other person, if you have a family, you give up things now so they will havve at least an even chance later. YOU CAN NOT SPEND NOR TAX YOURSELF OUT OF DEBT. The only way out of debt is to CUT SPENDING NOT INCREASE SPENDING. The Plan submitted by the Republicans is actually a plan from a group of Democrats.
Tom from Plymouth,
I guess you are right, but not by much. My income is 20% on the first amount and 28% on the amount above that! The amount is $82,650. Re-figured it was 22% not 24%.
My neighbor makes $5,000 a week and should be taxes higher than what I pay not lower. Tax the S O B's!
Bonehead Boehner's plan is actually the re-writing of Mitt's plan! The voters rejected it and Mitt!
AMEN. Hang tough, Mr. President.
O'Bama is a self-absorbed, self-appreciating, self-aggrandizing, self-centered egotistical Mega Manic. In his world, only he exist. He has yet to stop campaigning and continues with the empty promises and lies at every opportunity. Heir O'Bama expects everyone to drop in step and look in admiration at his every word, he wants to push aside the U.S. Constitution much like the Islamic's in Egypt. A like Dictator's from past History expects every one to praise, worship and grant is every wish. Those that don't, he attempts to draw others to do his destructive bidding. O'Bama likes to use scare tactics to scare the most vulnerable - the elderly and defenseless. He uses the tactic of Armageddon and destruction if he doesn't get his wishes granted, just more lies in order to get what he wants. People will one day wake-up and find O'Bama is not their so-called savior or their friend. O'Bama is a USER, he will do what ever it takes to meet his quest for power even if it means the destruction who blindly follow and support his dictatorial quest. When the money is gone, he wants to CONTINUE SPENDING 3-4 TIMES MORE THAT HE HAS AVAILABLE. Even O'Bama admits that his increase in Taxes will last no more that 1 week (7 days). When there is no money the Elderly and the Defenseless, along with those who he pays NOT TO WORK OR PRODUCE with his greatly expanded Entitlement Programs, will be the one's to suffer the most and O'Bama will be gone. But alas, O'Bama has time to be on Twitter, Facebook and continue to campaign but he doesn't have time to be a President. O'Bama has to be removed from the Office of President if the U.S. is to survive.
Feisty - you should work for MSNBC. You're like the cheerleader for ridiculousness. You never say anything helpful, insightful, educated, etc. All you do (but I have to give you some congrats for it, because I assume you're super successful/influential) is say nothing of substance, but then get congrats for it. It is totally mind numbing.
LosMan123
AGAIN: (get a clue)
1000 day old GOP BUDGET CUT LIST
Flood Control and Coastal Emergencies -$30M • Energy Efficiency and Renewable
Energy -$899M • Electricity Delivery and Energy Reliability -$49M • Nuclear
Energy -$169M • Fossil Energy Research -$31M • Clean Coal Technology -$18M •
Strategic Petroleum Reserve -$15M • Energy Information Administration -$34M •
Office of Science -$1.1B • Power Marketing Administrations -$52M • Department
of Treasury -$268M • Internal Revenue Service -$593M • Treasury Forfeiture Fund
-$338M • GSA Federal Buildings Fund -$1.7B • ONDCP -$69M • International Trade
Administration -$93M • Economic Development Assistance -$16M • Minority
Business Development Agency -$2M • National Institute of Standards and
Technology -$186M • NOAA -$336M • National Drug Intelligence Center -$11M • Law
Enforcement Wireless Communications -$52M • US Marshals Service -$10M • FBI
-$74M • State and Local Law Enforcement Assistance -$256M • Juvenile Justice
-$2.3M • COPS -$600M • NASA -$379M • NSF -$139M • Legal Services Corporation
-$75M • EPA -$1.6B • Food Safety and Inspection Services -$53M • Farm Service
Agency -$201M • Agriculture Research -$246M • Natural Resource Conservation
Service -$46M • Rural Development Programs -$237M • WIC -$758M • International
Food Aid grants -$544M • FDA -$220M • Land and Water Conservation Fund -$348M •
National Archives and Record Service -$20M • DOE Loan Guarantee Authority
-$1.4B • EPA ENERGY STAR -$7.4M • EPA GHG Reporting Registry -$9M • USGS -$27M
• EPA Cap and Trade Technical Assistance -$5M • EPA State and Local Air Quality
Management -$25M • Fish and Wildlife Service -$72M • Smithsonian -$7.3M •
National Park Service -$51M • Clean Water State Revolving Fund -$700M •
Drinking Water State Revolving Fund -$250M • EPA Brownfields -$48M • Forest
Service -$38M • National Endowment for the Arts -$6M • National Endowment for
the Humanities -$6M • Job Training Programs -$2B • Community Health Centers
-$1.3B • Maternal and Child Health Block Grants -$210M • Family Planning -$327M
• Poison Control Centers -$27M • CDC -$755M • NIH -$1B • Substance Abuse and
Mental Health Services -$96M • LIHEAP Contingency fund -$400M • Community
Services Block Grant -$405M • High Speed Rail -$1B • FAA Next Gen -$234M •
Amtrak -$224M • HUD Community Development Fund -$530M
clwyd - I wouldn't say the people voted against Romney's tax plan. To be honest (at least it's how I remember it) when Obama and Romney were debating about the economy, fiscal policy, etc., people thought Romney WON. (not obama). If people voted for Obama because they wanted abortions, free birth control, mandated insurance, more support systems, and looser immigration rules, doesn't mean they also liked the fiscal policy.
Oddly all you see is posturing and rhetoric from BOTH democrats and republicans. Does that make us all idiots for voting for any of them? Looks like four more years of a do NOTHING congress and president.
It did not start with this administration though.
Ah the campaigner in chief. You won Mr. Obama, the campaign is supposed to be over. You are and for another four years will be the president. That means being president of all Americans, not just those who voted for you. It may be worth pointing out that a lot of Americans did not vote for you. Your vote count was less than 2008. There is a reason for that. Many people who voted for you in 2008 changed sides. Ignore that at your peril. You may not have to run for re-election but your friends in the house and senate will.
Arrogance isn’t something associated with successful leadership. You may recall the mid term elections of 2010. If you insist on your way or the highway you will be see a repeat of 2010. We all know spending has to be reigned in, current levels are simply not sustainable. Pre-election polls clearly indicated a lack of faith in your ability to restore our economy. It is worth noting that Republicans held the house. There is a message there. Many don’t trust you on fiscal matters.
I’ve never been a fan of Kabuki. Apparently speaker Boehner isn’t either. I guess we are both a little old fashioned in our belief that problems should be addressed directly. In truth you squandered four years Mr. President. Our country should be doing better than it is now. I suspect some of your former supporters acknowledged that belief in the last election.
Presidents should put country before party or dogma. It is possible that you actually believe your policies are best for the country. If that is the case I pity you. The American spirit needs to be unleashed, not restrained. Your policies will only restrain. We can do much better. Open your mind.
This is really hilarious! Every righty here was making fun of Obama because his plan would only raise $60B per year. "That's only enough to run the government for 6 days at current spending levels!"
So the Republicans stepped right up. By "closing loopholes" (which loopholes, well, those weren't specified) they will increase tax revenues a whopping $80B a year - enough to run the government for 8 days!
Ahahahahahahhahahaha!
Here's an idea! Do both! Close the loopholes, increase taxes on the rich and get a total savings of $1.4T over 10 years. That is only a start! Then you all sit your damned dead asses down and negotiate another $3T!! Then you will come close to the $4T deal that Republicans walked away from almost exactly a year ago!
As usual, the peanut gallery has proven to be without any idea of reality.
Fact #1 - Every billionaire that has spoken about the issue would rather they raise rates. Why? Because they know they can just simply find new "write offs"..
Currently, with no caps on deductions, the billionares can simply shift their assets around and viola.. they are paying less... MEANING THE LOWER END GET STUCK!!!!
This is why so many of those in the 2% are not opposed to it!!!
So who is protecting whom? Looks more like Democrats (as usual) are working to protect the Corporate World and using Education, Unemployment and Entitlement Programs hostage, and blaming others.
Fact #2... The GOP deductions cap is universal. It caps the dollar amount of deductions, so those dumb enough to fall for the "not specific details" BS need to really pay attention.... it doesn't close off any specific deductions, it caps the amount one can deduct, to still allow them for the middle class.
Fact #3... Iraq has very little oil. In fact, they primarily import oil. We get 90% of our imported oil from Canada and South America, and well hidden by liberal media is the fact that the Democratic controlled Congress pushed for it. Unlike Obama, GW Bush did not circumvent Legislature to send troops to Iraq nor Afganistan.
Fact #4... Obama has spent more on advancing Afganistan than both Iraq and Afgan spending under GW Bush. Budgets are public record, one should try reading.
Fact #5... The Federal Government has proven to overspend in all areas. From buying office supplies to equipment. They have several "overlapping" Depts, along with State level "mirrored" offices.
Example, EPA & DEQ... Both handle Environmental issues, each paying top dollars for managment and support personnel and expenses. Both working over the same areas, but each with it's own "bi-laws".
Why do we need both? You could simply save a few billion a year by putting them under one?
Fact #6... Federal Tax levels do not constitute 100% of the taxes paid. It does not factor in the sales tax, property tax, payroll tax, or the hundred plus other "taxes".
Fact #7... The Federal Government provides Import tax relief to foreign trade from "friendly" nations... The Domestic taxes are higher than the average import tax, when comparing similar markets. In other words, it's not only cheaper labor in other countries, it's also cheaper to sell those import products.
Seriously, thank Bill Clinton for this one... NAFTA allows not only Canada and Mexico to push their goods, but other nations to push them through Canada and Mexico. Then you have trade agreements with China, that provided a HUGE tax relief...
Fact #8... The tax rate is just the amount each pays... the higher the number of people paying into taxes always beats out the rate. If you have 10 people paying 50%, you will not get as much as 100 people paying 25%... regardless of where they fall on the tax scale (talking about those paying, not getting all back or incentives that actually pay people).
Fact #9... Individuals should not be getting more from IRS than they put in. Earn Income Tax Credit is a sham. You should not receive back more than you paid in, and no one should be penalized because you don't have exactly 2 kids and earned a specific amount.... right now, you get a tax right off already for the children. You also get the right off for "Working Family Tax Credit".
All the bleeding heart libs trash the republicans' plan as being vague, yet it was not any more vague then Obama's plan to bump up tax, and "explore" medicare cuts in 2013. There is plenty of blame to go around here. At this point, neither side is bargaining in good faith. We are going to fly right off the fiscal cliff unless both sides stop all the stupid bi-partisan bickering.
Ho-Ho!!! It's Funny Bone's "Twinkie Defense" of the Ring Ding Job Creators!!!!!!!
Eliminate 18,000 jobs and GIVE THE EXECUTIVES ALL BONUSES because of it!!!!!!
D. Appel.
.READ..AND DON'T LET YOUR HEAD EXPLODE! you liar....
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq thecapacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."--Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998 "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
--Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by:
-- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9,1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- -Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
-- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
Keep it up Bonehead Boehner and the right wing extremists of the republican't party! Notice that today even on the FOX Approval Rating Chart the Congresse's approval, already at record lows, dropped from 17% to 16.4% and Obama's approval went up 2%. You are letting Bonehead dig your parties grave!
More crude and classless posts from Feisty. Some things never change here on First Read.
clwyd-2621393
Avenger,
Mr. President never drop the tax increase for the top 2%. I'm sick of my rich neighbor telling me he paid 9% in taxes with the loopholes while I paid 24%. Off with the head of Bonehead!
One of two things in your comment. Either you have no clue what you really pay in taxes OR your one of the 2% that your complaining don't pay thier fair share. I earned about 35,000 last year and i think my actual federal tax was less than 10%. Yes I did pay local,state and school taxes too but that is not the subject here.
You see. You are a prime example of why nothing is happening in Washington. You have your mind made up and will not even look at a different approach to righting the ship. With this type of mentality where no compromise is made the ship will sink. not maybe, It will. Something has to give and since the President started this fight he will have to be the first to bend. If he is a true leader he will recognise that. I suspect he is not however because he has faile to compromise in the past for the good of the many.
askaboutert,
By who's standard? I know there was talk about the debates, but that was months before the people voted and The final judgment came at the polls not with people opinions of a debate? Again, any excuse to try to circumvent the truth. Just like, "We lost because of the media!" Obama gave things to voters!" The truth is you lost because voters don't like what the republican party stands for anymore and protecting the rich is just one thing you don't get. Keep it that way and watch the results!
Avenger,
Will right wing nuts ever read? I never said he didn't pay his fair share! I specifically used the 9% rate as not paying a fair rate! You are like FOX and lie through your teeth! My neighbor earns $5,000 a week fool! So my 22% compared to his 9% is plain and simple. He doesn't pay the same rate. In the end it also could imply, with his income, he doesn't pay his fair share. But, I didn't say that!
Ron,
Feisty has more class than any of your right wing posts with a slant to the extreme right!
clwyd - are you saying that if you vote for someone it's because you agree with him 100% on every issue? I don't think that is the case at all.
If you look at the break down of what groups voted for who, and you poll the most important issues amongst those groups, do you think it's because of tax rates?
If you polled the latino crowd, and asked why they, as a group, voted so heavily in favor of Obama, it would be because they did an analysis of what they thought should be the correct tax rates for the country, and the amounts they came up with is that Bush had it right for everyone in the country, except for the top 2%, and the correct rate for them to pay is a few % points higher, at 39? Or do you think it is because of immigration laws?
For women, do you think it was the tax rate analysis? Or do you think it was because of the "war on women?"
Do you think the gay community for some reason has a resoundingly humongous agreement about what the tax rates shoudl be?
Socially, I am very liberal and I hope this post is not taken in the sense that I am against any of the social issues above (I'm not) but I certainly don't think that Obama won by so much because of his fiscal policies...
Honestly, I think that if you asked a lot of the lliberal posters on here if they would get rid of the bush tax xuts they'd say yes.
clwyd - how could he possibly pay a 9% rate? Do you have any ideas on how he does that? If that's true, that means he gives so much money away that you should definitely NOT be complaining and should probably be following his lead!
The sky is falling...maybe...maybe not....
With all of the predictions of doom in the US news about the reported fiscal cliff, or the end of the world, as interpreted by some, from the Myan calendar on Decemberr 21st of 2012, I am reminded of the attached old Walt Disney cartoon from many years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnp4kj5lLOU&feature=player_embedded
Avenger - I'm with you. Unless clwyd's neighbor is just breaing the laws, i don't think he's got all the facts righ. (even though I am not someone who is necessarily against higher rates)
Ask him, I have tried and he says it is the loopholes and his investments. I wish I had the opportunity to do the same and could afford the same guy to find all the ways to cheat America and Americans! Totally unfair, but if you noticed Mitt paid 14% on his millions and that is still far below my 22% and probably yours! The rich get richer. What was it 42% of the wealth owned by them a year ago and now up to 44%. Estimated to be 48% next year??? You probably think that is fair too? Let them eat cake and off with their heads!
I'm saying that the policies of the candidate that gets elected get a green light. Who said I have a mandate and policy to spend? The Worst President we have ever had. bushwhacker, who is hiding on his Texas ranch for 4 years knowing that the World court in the Hague has an arrest warrant out for his "War Crimes!" I bet you didn't even know that?
The problem, though, is that Mitt ROmney paid 4 million dollars in charitable ondations and still paid 14%. I don't know what your neighbor is doing....
I understand the argument against the lower tax rates for qualified dividends, and, if I were forced to make a decision, would probably vote to get rid of the qualified dividend rates.
HOWEVER, I can tell you that I am a tax attorney, and the "loopholes" and "offshore bank account" talk around today is way misguided. People think people are taking advantage of "loopholes" to get these lower rates, but it's really that they're just taking their money and investing it.
Rich people were getting richer and poor people got poorer under obama, bush, clinton, bush #1, Reagan, Carter, etc. It's happening, regardless of the tax rates.
I didn't know that. I don't know what that has to do with taxes, but do you think they should also have a warrant out for Obama for his drone bombings? Or for not automatically ordering the end to the middle east occupations, and at one point INCREASING the troops?
You are right, I may have the facts wrong, but my neighbor is a rich republican who lies through his teeth so maybe he doesn't pay 9% in taxes. Don't all republicans do that?
I used to be one and a Young Republican at that, but voting for Goldwater, Nixon and Reagan, now liberals if rated by today's right wing standards, would never happen in today's republican't , party of No.
Honestly, I don't even know what we are really arguing about. haha.
you should report him to the irs and make some money!
Obama is "hell bent" on raising taxes on the 2% and is unwilling to compromise on anything the GOP has to offer.
It's time for Speaker Boehner and Republicans to stand their ground and do what's right for America and the future of this Nation.
We have a president that is unable to put necessary policies in place and perform the duties of the highest office in the land. He continues to cloud the real issues with this tax increase on the wealthy while 50% of Americans pay no taxes at all.
To put it in perspective, the GOP is our only salvation in saving America from this destructive president and his administration .
Thankfully the gop still has a foothold while the masses of the dissillusioned continue to follow one another over the cliff like lemmings and take everyone else with their head on straight with them. At least the gop presented a rational and objective solution. However, in the end, the libbies pull their usual stop gap resistance with ridiculous proposals that only would work in fantasyland than the real world. We'll see what happens next but expect the worst so the disappointment won't sting so much.
"Democrats must be in LaLa Land"..."Laughing our heads off"...etc.etc.etc. Why do Republicans continue to use such exaggerated references to describe the Democrats? Very childish and so indicative of their incredible arrogance.
Oh...and we aren't fooled by your "closing of tax loopholes and "eliminating deductions" as an alternative to the Dems' raising of taxes to increase revenue. The reason why the Republicans won't specify what they are is because they will mainly hit the middle class.
askaboutet, I absolutely disagree with your suggestion of regadless of the tax rates. If you are suggesting that the richer has better access toward money management, then state so... because the tax rate has everything to do with what you are speculating and what you are investing. Unfortuantely there is a economy of scale.
For an example, a family with 50K annual income will have very little access to extra savings because his cost of living. A family earning $180,000 may have a much better standard of living, but the family with $180K will have a greater chance of saving after taxes, because they will mostly likely have residual $ left after tax and household spending. As for a family with much higher bracket, let us say $1Million. Given their higher standard of living, they will most likely have a greater amount of residual $ left in comparison to $180K and $50K families.
Now a greater tax rate in my opion is to encourage the $1Million family to re-invest that excess, because if they don't they will be charged with a higher tax rate... So why would they simply hand $ over to the govt???? However, it the tax rate is lower than normal, then the $1Million family will most likely be adviced by the likes of you to take out the money, because of the tax rate will likely increase in the future!!!! So take it out now while they can instead of being forced to reinvest in busness or re-capitalization (equipment, etc).... I believe this is one of the greatest reason why American business infrustructures are falling apart!!! BECAISE OUR GOVT IS ENCOURAGING THE INVESTORS TO TAKE THEIR MONEY OUT TO SPEND IT.
As for those idiots who now argue spending create a trickle down effect... Hmmm, no duh, there will definitely be a cerain amount of trickle down. Look at the current purchasing patterns. The high ticket items are not dropping (why?) because the rich can afford it, however what about the average consumed goods? Well, those are dropping or holding at a much slower rate. The incredible problem is that, American mfg is now incapable to compete at the mass producing cheap product (that they can afford). The middle range items are now being ignored or not carried.... Ask your grocers and purchaing agents!
So what the expensive items??? Housing and buildings are the most common speculative purchases for the rich... So why are they buying them? BECAUSE, BUYING THEM has more upside than investing back into buisnesses. What are the upside? tax loopholes, personal use,.... if there is enough cash reserve, realestate investments has also done well.
So, I am not convinced that you're telling the whole picture when you SUGGEST TAX RATES ARE NOT IMPORTANT....
Republicans are not talking to all the American people, everything they say and every proposal they offer is aimed at one group and one group only, the die-hard republican voters.
Fox News, Beck, O'Riley, Rush, all of them are talking only to die-hard republican voters, because they know these people are the only people stupid enough to believe them.
I believe die-hard republican voters, in everyday life are intelligent people, but the moment you add the words republican party to the conversation, they instantly turn incredibly stupid.
Republican voting women joining men to make their own rights illegal.
Republican voting unemployed people saying President Obama is wrong for trying to extend unemployment payments.
Republican voting people who's only source of income comes from SSI or Disability, wanted Romney as president even though he said he would end both these programs, making them homeless.
Republicans told the poor and middle class just what they were going to do to them, only die-hard republican voters didn't understand what they meant.
Right here today, the same people Romney and the republican party said they would destroy their way of life, are still defending them.
My question to all die-hard republican voters, When Romney and the republicans said they would end all government programs that benefit the poor and middle class, do you believe they were talking about ending benefits for everyone but you??
Romney said, Social Security, SSI, Disability, medicare, unemployment insurance, and Veterans Administration are wefare programs that America does not need nor can afford.
Die-hard republican voters, ending which one of these programs would affect your life.
Republicans will never offer anything more than what can be contained in "fresh water" economics. Sons-ah-bitches want us all to forget most of the country is, and has been in a severe drought. Democrats must hold tight. Let the Bush tax cuts expire. Let the spending cuts begin. Break the hell outta the republican "Casino Government". Break 'em! Break 'em!
Starting to believe this reality show, Obama in Charge is the strangest and saddest comdey in some time
Simple minded Party Chalkers and their lack of intelligence has become so sad.
If they'd only realize how stupid it makes them appear.
Party quack calls. Sad and disturbing.
You guys are hilarious.
Obama submits a rediculous plan...Liberals scream "Where's your plan, GOP?"
Beohner submits the GOP plan....Liberals scream, "That's rediculous."
Bottomline is that none of you will ever be happy regardless of what lame plan is passed.
askaboutit,
I think you forget that most of Mitt's donations went to the Mormon Church or cult! Does that amount actually get taken off his tax rate since it is questionable?
Dalilama10
More like 54%. Go check the numbers after they counted the votes from areas affected by Hurricane Sandy. Fact: Obama has won the popular vote by the largest margin of any campaign since Eisenhower.
Deal with reality. The majority preferred Obama over the vulture capitalist lying flip flopper. Wake up and deal with it. Obama got an electoral college and popular landslide. If the biggest margin since Eisenhower isn't a landslide what is, pray tell?
Obama has a mandate. Period, end of story. The far right doesn't accept that? Well then there will be further losses in 2014.
thturd - I am going to bed but I'll respond in the morning (if you don't mind and if you're still interested in the morning)
REJECTED...
The GOP is going to take all Americans hostage for the benefit of their 2%. Let just their 2% vote for them next elections, see how great that feels.
Expect taxes to raise for American people, there is no agreement between now and the end of the year.
Dangerous Mind, still on the Obama has a mandate kick? Get over it. There is no mandate, and it won't even matter since Obama won't even make it through the halfway mark of his second term. He will be impeached long before that. That's the mandate you won't see coming.
Impeach! Hahahaha!
If they didn't impeach Bush/Cheney, they won't do it to Obama.
A solid work for benefits program could be very helpful in eliminating so many on the government rolls probably.
We would get a lot accomplished if all who recieve are required to work on clean ups, and uncomplicated tasks that we either pay others to do or go undone.
It would make the country a cleaner, safer nation and help the economy
Make work or sacrifice of time a requirement for government assistance dollars
Simple solution....Let the Obama tax cuts expire and raise taxes on everyone. Everyone should pay to save the country...not just the rich. Also, let the Obama payroll tax cut expire.
That's another 2% that Obama did that is damaging social security.
Then, all the cuts proposed by the left and the right.....Accept them all.
Then pay off the debt....See how easy that was.
thturd - I don't thi nk the tax rates have as much of an effect on investments that most people think (that thought is actually a republican argument, isn't it?)
In your example, you seem to be talking about small business owners, right? I agree with you that higher taxes will encourage reinvestment in their company instead of taking it out, but if they WERE to take it out of the companies, wouldn't the be investing it somewhere else? Or "consuming" and spending it somewhere else?
I agree 100% with what you're saying about disposable income. I actually use that argument all the time when I'm explaining the difference to people between income and wealh (for people who don't already have family wealth or something). Just because one person makes 2 times as much money as someone doesn't mean they end up 2 times as wealthy after expenses and taxes. It's probably more like 10 times as wealthy.
BUT, my point was that regardless of the tax rates (high, low, 15% preferential treatment or not) rich people have been getting richer at a way faster rate than poor people. It is NOT simply whether taxes are at 35% or 39% that will make that stop happening. Given your example, it's the compounding-ness of the "extra money" that causes this difference. That will keep compounding, while poor people save nothing, or little. Whether that extra income is being taxed at 35, 39, 45, etc. will not really stop/fix it.
I really don't understand Obama's insistence on focusing on tax rate increases as opposed to tax loophole removal as a strategy to get more tax revenue. If anything, I think the focus needs to be on the loopholes first - it can also raise revenues and it simplifies the tax code (which means less tax management overhead costs for the public and private sectors).
If removing loopholes doesn't achieve the desired revenue goals, that's one thing...but to insist on tax rate increases instead of removing loopholes just makes me think Obama doesn't really understand how our tax system works.
annex mexico. so they will have to pay taxes. which they are not paying while working in america now. boss is taking the check cashing it and paying his workers. this is how thay are getting out of paying social securiy and income taxes. the republicans have always taxed the poor and middle class not the wealthy. they keep their money. that is why the deficit is so high the poor dont have enough money to keep the economy going and the wealthy are not going to.now you guys are going to have to work with obama. because the republicans tried to put romney in the white house for which they knew would set women back a hundred years and it was not going to happen now or ever.they need a one penny national deficit tax and eveyone pays it. and to be used for this purpose only. by the way real american HATE never solves problems. it only brings more on.......
TeaLoonies in Congress are the drag on our Economy, the only way to a recovery is to pull the plug on the Loonies !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Holy Sh!t is this for real? Twitter? Really? Is this how decisions get made now?
Stop going on TV & playing on your computer for 5 fu&k!ng minutes and meet with Congress for hells sake. Lets get this thing figured out before your dumba$s goes on a 3 week $4 million vacation to Hawaii on our dime. Really shows how devoted you are to the American people...
The SPENDING has to be dealt with. The Government sucks at managing anything they touch, so I don't get why you Dems so eager to give them more money and more power to do a bad job.
We bitch about Bush all the time, about how he spent too much, so I don't get why you guys don't hold Obama's feet to the fire for spending a TRILLION more EVERY SINGLE YEAR of his presidency than even Bush spent.
OBAMA, Democrats, Republicans, For Fu*)'s sake STOP SPENDING!!!
My bad! All government employees. As of Sept 10, 2012:
There were 2,790,000 federal workers in January 2009 when the president took office, and now there are 2,804,000 workers.
a grand total increase of ... (drumroll, please!) 14,000 workers over 4 years!
Clyd
0
8500
8500
850
8501
34500
25999
3899.85
34501
82650
48149
12037.25
Total Tax
16787.1
Total %
20.31%
You lie! Nobody that makes $250 a year can pay 9%.
I honestly think the Republicans should just let them have everything they are asking for finally, and I am as conservative as can be, But the way I figure it is if they stand their ground and we fall off this man made cliff, The Dems will blame the repubs, It is obvious to anyone that can figure a budget and work numbers that what the Dems are purposing Cannot ever work and will destroy our country, but they are hellbent on doing it anyways, so let them... Let them have every single thing they are asking for so all the blame falls on them. That way when these tax increases cause millions more to be unemployed and we enter in to a deep depression instead of this horrible economy we have been in for 3 years, the dems cannot blame anyone but themselves because they got everything they wanted. Then the next mid term elections the repubs take back the senate and in 4 years the repubs take back the white house and try to save what is left of this country. SO let them keep spending let them raise taxes on the job creators Let them drive us off this cliff and let them get all the credit. Period... it ends the dead lock one way or the other for good. It is very easy to see what will happen all you have to do is simply look at California, that is the model they are using and we see where they are, and the repubs want to use the model of Texas of low taxes etc one State Cali is bankrupt and the other Texas is the strongest State in the Union Economically... Only an ignorant fool would want to follow California's path but many on here are begging for it and the idiot you re-elected as POTUS wants it as well so give it to him and get out of the way. Plan and simple
TO: Lanikai Ron who wrote:
If only there was a way to for you to stop being forced to read her comments!
Oh my!
Geesch!
No one is forcing you to read Feisty's comments. If you can't stand it anymore, just click on "Ignore This Author" located behind the exclamation mark.
I see that I am back to the pre election comments.The Rep./T.P. want to act on Norquist demands Which are !. Reduce or eliminate the only true entitlement programs a.S.S.which is payed, as a compulsory tax by all working Americans and b.Medicare that we payed out of our wages until we retired when we were healthy and now accept the Rep./T.P. demands that gut S.S. and Med.care so that their paymaster,Norquist can preen that he controls the Gov. I have news for all of you. That is no compromise. You right wing creatures lost .Now come up with true compromises and move forward with the majority who voted against your demands. No tax loop holes for the rich .No gifts to companies that are choking on excess profits and thoroughly investigate and punish tax dodging by the 1+% Oh. the rich can't pay all the taxes so they don't have to pay any.
@ adzrl66,
@ JohnLaz
"I am 33 and I don't agree. The older generations have ruined us".
"Really?? Just...really?? Another of today's younger generation having a quarter-life crisis. What's the matter? Life not as easy as mummy and daddy said it would be? Not getting all your wants in life because...(dramatic pause)...they were wrong in saying you were perfect when you were a child? Lord...grow up and deal with reality. Life is hard. Your problems are no worse than any other generations, just different."
Don't be so ridiculous. This has nothing to do with me or what I want for myself. This has to do with decades and decades of Americans letting their elected officials spend every dime the government takes in and then another 16 trillion on top of that. And to top it all off we are rolling through another 1.2 trillion in debt every year.
Older generations have created a huge burden for us over the next several decades all because of greed and wanting more than what the country could afford. I know I am right, you know I am right, and so does anyone else who has even the most basic education.
GOP proposal - tax the poor, give more money to the rich and start another costly war in the Middle East to keep funneling money to their buddies in military industrial complex
@Max,
Do you have a link of the proposal, I would love to see it.
Me too. Please show me this invisible proposal. Until then max, take off the Obama sticker off your forehead you fool.
The Republicans don't have a serious proposal, we have seen them play this sick little game again and again what makes people think this time will be any different. They could easily pass the Senate bill that freezes tax rates for 98% of Americans but instead they have turned this simple job into a dog and pony act. Nothing has changed, this Republican/Tea Party Congress is just as worthless as they were before the election.
Liberal proposal-don't honor your original promises, continue to fund costly wars in the Middle East while asking for money from others you criticize and secretly despise to make our President look good while funding bloated government social programs with no forseeable payback.
They don't seem to realize that we are willing to go over the fiscal cliff. Don't give us a rehash of old ideas---show us some compromise.
I like Obama about as much as I like this Boner guy. I'm a registered Republican who voted Libertarian ever since GOP neocons betrayed this country and its People. I am sick and tired of GOP being a front for the top 1%, the military industrial complex, and other special interest groups - like the pro-Israel lobby.
Obama's proposal...
Gimme more of your tax dollars to spend, forget about entitlement reforms that are QUICKLY bankrupting our country, and take it or leave it.
Yeah, sounds like compromise to me.
This kicking the can down the road must STOP, and NOW.
This is the reason the Republicans still control the House. IF there were a "mandate" as you Dems love to cry, that wouldn't be the case.
Yes, voters agreed that the wealthy need to pay more, and the Republicans have agreed to that.
Voters ALSO said they want the out of control spending and debt dealt with- and the Democrats refuse to listen.
Don't you realize, that if the deficit spending is IGNORED once again, our credit will once again be downgraded, creating yet another "fiscal cliff"???
International and domestic investors buying our debt are not as stupid as the Democratic party. They will see any further attempts to obfuscate real spending restraints as a red flag...
Our cost to borrow will skyrocket...and then, well, look at Europe, fools...
The Republican's proposal is just as serious as Obama's.
This is a political battle and Obama is out to win. And likely, with the media on his side, he will.
Point 1. Social security should not be a part of any debt reduction plan. It is paid for separately and the only reason it is a topic today is because it was dumped into the general fund as a huge resource to pay for war and earmarks.
Solution to SS: Raise the Retirement age to 70 full benefits (with an anti age discrimination clause to protect those working in the last 20 years of their careers in case of layoffs or age related issues. Remove the earnings cap altogether. Eliminate payouts to the 364 Billionaires and 3 million millionaires (token I know but I can not understand why a Paul Allen would need SS when his boat costs $750,000 to fill up to sail around SOCAL.)
Medicare/Obamacare- duplication of effort - go to single payer system with everyone contributing, torte reform, drug price control, and a fraud reporting / whistleblower plan with teeth in it.
DOD- JSF F-35 program we do not need it with far less expensive drones filling in the gap. Cost savings roughly equal to that of the GDP of Austraila.
Eliminate every non essential position in the FEDGOV. (can be determined by the "essential personnel list now in existence for wx emergencies) if they can be spared because of a few snow flakes they are not needed at all.
Balance the FEDGOV wage level down 19% to match private sector jobs.
Cut by 75% the number of FEDGOV contractors.
Problem solved short term for long term a balanced budget constitutional amendment.
The Dems simply want to keep playing to the poor voter base that they have created on their own.
there are cuts that need to be made. you have to have more revenue. at some point maybe these two parties can come together and put the good of the country before the grover's and tea party crowd. raise the rate on the top earners and cut deductions to a max of 50k.
you can cut 385 billion out of medicade without touching a single benefits. you can get another 150 billion by allowing medicade to negotiate drug prices which the gop made illegal
you can find a few billion in cuts to the pentagon each year that adds up to major money without hurting them one bit.
consolidate programs to eleminate over lap saves another 5 billion or so.
this is not rocket science. you don't have to kill the poor or gut the military to do this. you just have to be willing to have the rich pay a bit more and cut some programs that no one is going to miss.
the problem is the gop can't raise taxes or they know they will get a primary challence and they are putting there political future ahead of the future of the country
Exactly right. The time to address this out of control spending is now.
Max,
Ain't that the truth. The Republicans are again the party OF AND FOR the rich only, and they will do anything and hurt anybody and even hurt their own country to benefit the rich and to maintain their power. They will rob Social Security (that very necessary safety net for when we are old and feeble that we pay 15% of our income into for over 35 years). They will end Medicare, starve the poor babies and children and handicapped and not increase taxes on the most wealthy to pay for the trillions and trillions of dollars extra added to the national debt by the recently, very costly Republican wars and increased military spending, and just to the debt in general that has been growing for decades.
Do you really believe the crap you post, or are you just trying to impress the other libturds?
Mike you are a fool and the rest of you repubs. all you want is to get richer at any cause and you don't care who you hurt , you are so rich and misguided that you can't see the truth unless you can make another dollar, you are greedy, rude and just right down hateful and there is a price to pay one day for the way you treat people that don't have money to pay bills and just get to work because they are literally broke and until the wealth is shared it will alway be that way, you keep saying Obama this, Obama that he only one man against the world and i just love how he been dogged by repubs. party and still accomplish what he want and that why you hate him, so go ahead and hate all you want he is still the President and you can't do anything about it, so shut your pie trap, he is not going to make a deal with repubs. this time so Fiscal Cliff here we come and Just One Guy what is all that crap you talking about you Repubs are really crazy and don't have a clue to what poor means and i hope all you greedy fools loose every penny you got and then you see how it feels to be without including your House Speaker Boehner such a wimp and spinaless coward, I hope he's voted out in 2014 now cry on that!
If Republicans pass the Obama proposal he will still leave office as having added more to our national debt then all previous presidents combined. For those that say there is nothing serious about the Republican proposal, well the same goes for the one Obama put forth. When the nation is running annual deficits of 1.2 trillion, we need some real solutions and not more kicking the can down the road. Obama simply does not care about the massive debt or deficits he is running up, after all he has more flexibility to do what he wants now that his last election is over and he and his family is set for life.
here's what you get a two party system, that needs to be minus two parties. nothing will get done until we kick both these parties to the curb, period. The rich don't need to be taken care off and the poor that choose not to work don't deserve free handouts, and I don't think I like the gov't taking my money (social security) and using it for @!$%# other than my retirement, just another reason to take more money from the tax payer, what happens when SSC runs out, I paid into for 20+years now and I won't see a dime of that money when I retire, so that is far? Every single damn person in this country should be responsible for their own retirement.
Also the gov't size is way to big and subsidies are way out of control, we're spending billions of dollars every year on stuff that we probably had subsidies for in the f-cking civil war. The gov't's job is not to create jobs, it's to ensure that fair business practices are met, but I guess everyone wants to work for the gov't now so that they are taken care off, this country was great once because ppl used to own their business's and trade/barter, now everyone's an employee suckling off of whatever they can get, no pride, no diginity no innovation. Our federal gov't could and should be cut by 90% and still do it's job that is how bad it is, ppl used to take care of other ppl not just give free money to whoever puts their hand out, if you don't work you don't eat, whatever happened to survival of the fittest??
Best thing that could happen to this country is this gov't system failing and giving the ppl a chance to take back a country that is so far corrupt and useless, yes chaos would emerge for a while, but so would justice.
I say lets see what happens? What could possibly be worse than the direction we are currently headed? Oh wait let's see work a job you hate for 60 years and then die poor, yeah great plan, sound awesome.
What kind of payback are you looking for. Governments are not corporations. They do not turn a profit. Read the Preamble of the Constitution...all of the words, not just the ones you like. And don't you dare complain about funding costly wars in the Middle-East...who proposed those wars? Who lied about the Intelligence to start one of them and who borrowed money to fund those costly wars in the Middle-East in the first place?
The "do-nothing" Republican congress are afraid to do what they know they should.
Those rich guys that bought them will break their legs if they acted like they had the good of the country in mind and raised the rich's taxes back to what they they were before the "temporary" Bush tax cuts.
libturds...awsome Rex, that's really cleaver. Still living in that single-wide with your wife / first cousin?
BOTTOM LINE : Obama sits on his hands
and the Republicans take the full rap from those who LABOR for a living wage .
After the cliff has been cleared those same Republicans will be afraid to go home in daylight .
AND they will be so much more open to taxing the rich AFTER their constituents have beat them up for a month or 2 due to HIGHER TAXES & loss of services .
I didn't even read the article, but given it's the GOP we're talking about their plan most likely goes something like this:
"Calling all conservatives and GOP stooges! All of you go out on the streets now, and find all those less fortunate than you, along with all women and children. Beat them, and then take all of their money and posessions and give them to your closest GOP friends. Caring for your fellow man is often extremely expensive! Cut that out of the equation and we're all set!"
the Jesus people don't want to part with money. When Jesus was asked "who do you pay your taxes to"? , Jesus replied, "who's face is on the money?" they replied "Caesar" Jesus replied, "then render un to Caesar, what is Caesar's". Jesus fed the poor, republicans feed the rich. God doesn't like republicans
This tax the rich mantra of the left is getting really old. Sure, lets tax the rich to pay for our government for 8 days. Are you serious. You idiots need to get the facts and wake the Freak up!
Max: Where in the world did you get the idea republicans want to tax the poor? Please, get control. The republicans are willing to close loopholes on the rich- which are the biggest scam in our tax code today. It's like free money to the rich who are the only ones that can afford to have a mortgage with today's banking requirements. Having a cap on deductions would essentially raise the taxes on the rich. Anybody who does there own income tax returns knows there are plenty of deductions and loopholes specifically designed to benefit the rich. There is no where that republicans have said one word about raising the taxes on the poor.
Ahhh yes, Hendy329 the "ever-so-smart" GOPer has come to tell all of us lefties how stupid we are. Anyone else ever notice how there's never any further info when conservatards do that? It's always just "y'all er dumb".. and that's it. The lack of follow-up speaks VOLUMES.
You liberals are a f'ing joke. No matter what plan the GOP presents, no matter how realistic and satisfying, it won't be good enough. You want to crucify the demonized top 2%. If you know how to turn a calculator on and hit and perform a few basic calculations, raising taxes on the top 2% won't amount to a rounding error. But yet, you want to keep all of your disgusting entitlement programs and never leave the warm comfortable blanket of the tax payers carrying you each day.
You are free to donate more than the government is taking. But not one of you scum bags will give a nickel more than you're forced to give.
Need to rename the Democratic party to the Hypocratic Party.
^BAHAHAHAH!!!! The funniest thing about that post is I can replace every "liberal" with "conservatard GOP stooge" and it would define my viewpoint to a tee. Conservatards LIVE to squash progress as long as there is even the remotest possibility that said progress was conceived by someone else. Whether that progress might benefit humanity in general is of no consequence. Conservatives very purpose on earth is to force everyone else to suffer until they get their way. The idea of helping make the world a better place is irrelevant to conservatives and the GOP. The only thing that matters to the right wing is whether they are getting their way at any given time. Conservatives are NOTHING more than grown-looking infants in the way they behave, both at home and in politics.. All of America has seen 4 plus years of pathetic sour grapes from the righty-tighties to back that up.
Rick: As did Bush, and most of what's inflated Obamas debt are to pay for Bushs programs. Part D drug plan 200 billion a year, tax cuts 400 billion every year and his 2 wars.
We need a THIRD PARTY desperately.
The GOP actually has some good points in their proposal and the Dems have some good ones in theirs. The problem is that both parties are either far left or far right and neither side is willing to surrender their core ideals, which are both obsolete in the 21st centurt.
GOP plan is the SAME as it has always been... fund tax cuts for the wealthy by cutting programs that benefit the middle and working classes. The GWB tax cuts, Iraq war (aka Bush's war of CHOICE which he LIED the US into) and the financial crisis (due to lack of regulation over the financial industry and the mortgage companies) have contributed more to national debt than ANY OTHER item. So, the Grand Ole Plutocrat party wants to protect these tax cuts (which do NOT create jobs) while they cut things that DIRECTLY benefit the middle and working classes (the mortgage deduction for instance). In addition, they REFUSE to consider raising tax rates to match the CLINTON (surplus when he left office) rates. The lack of details in their plan is typical fantasy-land accounting. They might as well have promised that they could raise Elvis from the dead and find Hoffa's body while they are at it.
Jack, raising taxes to pre-bush levels and increasing capital gains taxes to 25% will amount to a substantial increase in revenue. These are just PARTS of the plan that BO and the dems are proposing so stop spewing Douche Limpbag's ill researched speaking points. PS: I am WELL EDUCATED white collar liberal who is fiscally conservative but NOT a shill for the top 1%ers like your dear old Boehner and McConnell (in fact the ENTIRE GOP) are.
What fiscal cliff? All you Demy's I thought Bill Clinton was the best Pres. ever, whats wrong with going over the cliff to his budget, his tax code everything should be great! I'm middle class Raise my taxes and cut the budget, we as a country need to get our fiscal house in order now not later.
Hey!! In case some of you need a refresher....Obama won the election. The trouble with the Republicans is they could not care less how the country rebounds from the worse recession since the depression of the 30s...their only love is money from the 1%. Sadly what they fail to see is that when the country prospers the rich do better too. It's like overfishing, things are good while it last but when all the fish are gone people starve. Right now people are starting to starve from lack of money circulating. It doesn't do any good to start a business if people don't have money to buy the product offered.
The problem with the Republicans' proposal is that it echos Romney's talking points that was rejected by the voters and evades the issue of just where those cuts are going to come from. The real to solve the problem is to take care of the tax issue first then negotiate the cuts from both sides of the aisle.
Republicans kept the house because of redistricting not because they had more votes. Even in the house democrats got more votes, 60% of the people polled exiting rejected Romneys tax cuts to the wealthy and vague cuts in loopholes. Republicans were lined up to listen to Axelrod tell them how they won the election at Harvard. Its not that hard really, when there is no real plan you aren't going to win and I have yet to see the GOP put anything forward that wasn't vague.
Republicans can whine, cry and complain until they are blue in the face but come January first all tax breaks expire whether they like it or not. The fiscal cliff isn't about taxes its about spending, you have to be illiterate not to have figured out that by now. If the payroll deduction breaks are allowed to expire polls are already showing they are blaming republicans, somewhere in your thick heads the GOP needs to stop obeying Norquist and start looking out for the people.
I know it's nothing more than political brownie points to crucify me and other 1%ers, as it won't amount to very much in the overall scheme of things. We do have very competent accountants and lawyers that will circumvent much of this, so why not pass something that makes sense. You want to raise capital gains to 25%. I paid 15% on quite a large sum this year. What many don't realize is I paid the highest tax rate in the country and bought stocks after being taxed. Now that a handful of investments paid off, I get to pay another 15% on the amount above and beyond what I purchased them for. Any idea what this will do to the stock markets, as far as speculation goes? Everybody screams and cries because Romney and other smart "wealthy" people (Libs and GOP) invest with money managers, all of which maintain offshore hedge funds in the Caymans, Bermuda, Jersey Islands and other less expensive places. Why not entice those same money managers to keep their funds here in the U.S. so the billions and billions they manage will stay home. Instead, you want to dissuade companies to find reasons to move abroad. Why do you think a tiny country like Ireland has over 700 U.S. based companies registered their? Liberals need to learn how to incentive not penalize excellence. They need to quit rewarding those who feel entitled to others hard earned dollars. Eliminate wasteful entitlement programs and help people become more self sufficient, but that might cost them votes if they are allowed off the government bottle. Don't forget, it's people like me who employ close to 100 people, pay millions in payroll tax, my employees who earn on average $75K a year pay a high tax rate, buy houses, cars, spend a good bit and pay taxes on their purchases. Might not want to keep biting the hand that feeds this country too many times.
Jan: You hit the nail on the head when you said "they" are going to blame the GOP. You do mean the liberal biased media who has been on a 24/7 365 campaign agianst anyone who opposes Obama and his socialist b.s.
D. Appel
HA HA D. Appel...look to see the first Prez that dipped into Social Security... The blame game has been going on for 5 years and your time is up. Start to look at the White House.
Jack:
You are so right but, you gotta look at who you are talking to. Remember these people think you did not earn your business. They think the world owes them something. You will never get through to them.
And if they can they will hurt you. Just because you have something that they don't.
notliborcon
YOU ARE THE LIAR NOTLIB.....READ..AND DON'T LET YOUR HEAD EXPLODE!
"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq thecapacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
--President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
"Iraq is a long way from [here], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face."--Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998 "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
--Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton, signed by:
-- Democratic Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others, Oct. 9,1998
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- -Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
-- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
Just one guy,
The first one that truly dipped into SS was President Lyndon B Johnson.(DEMOCRAT) He placed the Social Security money into the General Fund.. Since then, God only knows how they use it..
Why would any of you want to tax the very people that create jobs? They already pay 40% taxes. The amount they would give is enough to run the Government for EIGHT days...Now how foolish is this? Allow these people to create jobs as that is what this Country needs most..Everyone likes to point fingers at the wealthy..Since when is it a crime to make money..If it were any of you, it would be an entire different story. If you keep taxing the people that create jobs, you are going to run them out of the Country..We have the highest taxes in the world.
You all need to start focusing on the people that are blowing the money...This President has spent more on Vacations than all Presidents before him.. He is going to Hawaii again, four million dollars. These give me programs that the Dems are creating have to be stopped.. We need jobs to up this economy and its the Republicans that have done it every single time..
Don't tell me about Clinton, he cut back on things to make his economy look good but when he left office we were in a recession...GOOGLE IT, you will see...Quit beating the keys and study. If you will actually study, read it, you will finally find the truth. Not from some marxist professor.
righton...Jean
citizensarethecountry
Damn, one would swear that there's been nothing but Republicans in charge for 200 years.. HA HA, Drink the koolaid - you'll be eating your own in about 3 years.
What??? They presented a budget, but it says nothing about what would be cut and talks about tax reform. Obama's tax increase to the rich is only for a year and is only about 2%. This is so that Congress can change the tax code. Obama proposed a realistic and satisfying plan. What the GOP proposed is obstruction.
Seems that class warfare that Mr. O started is alive and well with the liberals. You do know that Mr. O and the congress and senate are rich as well but you don't seem to mind them, nor the fact that the unions and the RICH that supported and got your Mr. O elected. Open thy mind, it's an amazing world when dealing in facts and reality.
Justoneguy.... I'll bit on your deflection from my point.
Sorry but my head did not explode. First of all, did Clinton admin or Congress initiate a war in Iraq prior to GWB? NO. Is it true that GWB, Cheney and Rice all stated, unequivocally, that Iraq and Al Qaeda were in league with each other, Iraq had WMD (never did find them did we?) and that Iraq was reconstituting its nuclear program. In fact, here is a NICE list of the BS that came out of GWB admin:
1) Iraq seeking uranium (yellow cake) from Niger. Remember Joe Wilson and Valeria Plame?
2) "We've learned that Iraq has trained al-Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases ... Alliance with terrorists could allow the Iraqi regime to attack America without leaving any fingerprints." -- President Bush, Oct. 7
3) "We have also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We are concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVs [unmanned aerial vehicles] for missions targeting the United States." -- President Bush, Oct. 7.
4) "We have seen intelligence over many months that they have chemical and biological weapons, and that they have dispersed them and that they're weaponized and that, in one case at least, the command and control arrangements have been established." -- President Bush, Feb. 8, 2003
5) "We know where [Iraq's WMD] are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south, and north somewhat." -- Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, March 30, 2003
6) Aluminum tubes lie from Condi Rice. Aluminum (7075) is used for MANY things including aircraft, manufacturing and other industrial uses NOT, as Rice lied, only for centrifuges.
Admit you and I were lied to then actually make a valid comment on the true purpose of my post.
I don't bother to read the Dems proposal because I know it, they haven't changed. Always curious to read what the Repubs try to put out and repackage their, "anything but raise taxes on the rich" proposal. So this is latest effort. God, this is lame. Grover got you elected, Grover can get you unelected.
"GOP offers own proposal to avert ‘fiscal cliff’"
Oh boy, straight out of folks that went to schools like "Tuscalooser School of the Mathematically challenged", "Nascar School of left Turns", "Ohio School of the GOPhers"...
Cant wait to see what they have as proporsals, be ready to laugh ...
thank you for the laugh Doc...Nascar School of left turns....
"GOP offers own proposal to avert ‘fiscal cliff’"
Almost sounds like a threat, doesn't it, like if the Dems don't accept the GOP proposal then, "oh, well, we tried to compromise, so now it's all on you guys if/when we fall off the cliff."
Alaska - Why so negative when you have not even read the proposal? the article says they framed it after the bi-partisan Bowles-Simson commission report. That sounds pretty good to me.
Alaska: You realize what you just quoted was the title of the article right? Your precious MSNBC wrote that....not the republicans
"sounds like a threat . . . "
Geithner put the President's ridiculous plan out there to say they proposed a plan and the Republicans were responsible for saying no and us going over the fiscal cliff. 1.6 trillion in taxes and 400 to 600 billion in spending reductions. This plan was not serious. Then Geithner says that if the Republicans want spending cuts, they will have to offer them. It shows the supposed Leader does not really have a legitimate plan. I am glad the Republicans called their bluff. I am sure the Democrats will simply say something like the math doesn't add up and form a "compromise". This compromise will end up deferring to the Republicans. Bet on it.
Rational...
Perpetuating lies will get you nowhere. Simpson/Bowles included TAX HIKES. But I guess the only people who don't seem to know that are the brain-dead ditto-heads on the right...or they do know it and choose to lie about it?
So which is it? Are Republicans stupid or liars? I happen think they're both! What about you? Hmmmmm.....
A Republican pushes her BMW into a gas station. She tells the mechanic it died. After he works on it for a few minutes, it is idling smoothly. She says, “What’s the story?” He replies, “Just crap in the carburetor.” She asks, “How often do I have to do that?”
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A gorgeous young redhead goes into the doctor’s office and said that her body hurt wherever she touched it. “Impossible!” says the doctor. “Show me.” The redhead took her finger, pushed on her left shoulder and screamed, then she pushed her elbow and screamed even more. She pushed her knee and screamed; likewise she pushed her ankle and screamed. Everywhere she touched made her scream. The doctor said, “You’re not really a redhead, are you?”Well, no” she said, “I’m actually a Republican.” “I thought so,” the doctor said. “Your finger is broken.”
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A Russian, an American, and a Republican were talking one day. The Russian said, “We were the first in space!” The American said, “We were the first on the moon!”The Republican said, “So what? We’re going to be the first on the sun!” The Russian and the American looked at each other and shook their heads. “You can’t land on the sun, you idiot! You’ll burn up!” said the Russian. To which the Republican replied, “We’re not stupid, you know. We’re going at night!”
And, Rational, they didn't state which parts of the Simpson/Bowles commission they were going on, just saying they used the recommendations of it to come up with it. No instead they throw out general terms, as follows
What kind of tax reform, health savings from where, change the CPI how, where are the going to cut discretionary and mandatory spending? Especially where the GOP is concerned the devil is in the details, details we don't have.
There is no cliff !!!!!
That's just a term invented by the media. On January 1st If tax rates return to the Clinton tax rates it will not be the end of the world. What is wrong with people, they have had so much Republican propaganda shoved down their throats that their afraid of everything.
Nobody likes paying taxes but lets face it when Clinton was President we created over 25 million new jobs and the economy was doing great. Things started going south when Bush was elected and he and his Republican Party made all the WRONG moves and put the country into a deep recession. They did exactly what the Republican Party did in the late 1920s; that's when through their greed and incompetence they caused the country to go into the great depression. The Republican Party has always been very good at ruining things but not very good at governing.
I wish people would except the inevitable; the American people have to step up and work together if we want our country to continue being number one in the world.
There are people that actually believe Americas best days are behind us but in reality we have only just begun. Our best days are coming and their just on the horizon. People have to stop listening to the negativity and lies coming from the right wing and Fox News.
Caligula...all politicians are liars. Let me know if you want to see a list of Obama's broken promises. 5 pages long.
Doc...old jokes twisted around....digress a little more if you wish.
Study your history books again, BigAl... Clinton got nothing accomplished, other than playing 'dunk in cigar in the intern'. Any bills/laws generally take time to permeate the economy; what one administration does usually takes a good 6-8-10 years to permeate the economy. Bush inherited the 'Clinton got nothing accomplished' agenda.
Unless you include diddling the staff...
BigAl, Clinton had a surplus. I still don't understand how anyone can claim that a government surplus is a good thing. They don't create anything. For them to have a surplus means that they taxed too much for things we don't need. Huge deficits are not they key either, which is why we should be working towards a balanced budget amendment. The states that have similar laws are doing fine. Why can't the feds do it?
Also, if you are listening, it is both sides talking about the "cliff" but I suppose a biased jerk like yourself only hears what they want to hear.
Interesting rewrite of history Homie...do you have a big red nose too? Really 6-8-10 years. So what you're telling us is that the 2007 economic crash had nothing to do with the Bush Tax Cuts (unfunded...borrowed), Medicare Part D (unfunded...borrowed) and two wars (unfunded...borrowed). It was all Clinton's fault...ROFLMAO!
There's no place like home...click, click, click
There's no place like home...click, click, click
There's no place like home...click, click, click
We lost our credit rating because of the refusal to address revenue. This will not divert to the republicans unless Obama wants it to, the fact is the tax breaks have to be renewed by the house, senate and Obama.
Redistributing the money to the wealthy is still redistribution, there shouldn't be redistribution. There should be a balance, and currently we have a ballooning wealthy class and a disappearing middle class. They are using taxes to redistribute the wealth to a few, if that is what you want keep electing people like Boehner whose only oath is to an oil lobbyist.
boner and grover just don't get it. the taxes on the wealthy are going up no matter what. the question is does the taxes go up on the poor and middle class as well as the first 250k they make. this is simple. every one gets a tax break up to the first 250k they make. even the top one percent. the alternative is everyones goes up and they get an even higher tax increase because it will go up on the first 250k too.
i know this is hard for the gop to understand but it aint that complicated. tax the tax hike over 250k or get a tax hike for all the money you make. simple
BigAl of Las Vegas: The only reason beloved Bill Clinton looks so good is because he had a Republican majority Congress who made the decisions that ole Bill went along with. Now we have Democrats controlling our government, hence the reason NO RECOVERY.
Now that's funny. Republicans wanting higher taxes on the rich. Yeah, Clinton had nothing to do with the surplus, it was the republicans.
Trying to say the Republican proposal was framed after the Simpson Bowles proposal is not entirely true.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3844
Do you really believe that or are you letting a monkey do the typing? How about paying down the national debt? The Clinton surplus was to pay down the debt of the federal government which Bush acting like my wife thought it was money for him to waste.
It's unbelievable. The more comments from those on the right I read the more I understand why this country is so screwed up. You people are throwing out BS like farmers.
Larry: Give it a rest. Obama acts like a 25 year old whore dating a rich man and has his no limit credit card at his disposal. He has NO idea what to do. He economically retarded. I sure hope he asked Romney what his plans were when they had lunch last week. I'm sure he said, look we both know I lied through my teeth again to get re-elected, but there are so many ignorant, uneducated voters who actually believe I give a $hit, I had to tell them they'll be taken care of for life. I mean, the problem is I have no idea how to pay for this, none at all. I promise, if my next four years are as pathetic as my first four, I won't blame you like I blame Bush for my failures. Please help.
jack -
If Obama did you can be sure he will do exactly the opposite.
The Democrat Fisherman
A woman in a hot air balloon realizes she is lost. She lowers her altitude and spots a man fishing from a boat below. She shouts to him, "Excuse me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago, but I don't know where I am."
The man consults his portable GPS and replies, "You're in a hot air balloon, approximately 30 feet above a ground elevation of 2,346 feet above sea level. You are at 31 degrees, 14.97 minutes north latitude and 100 degrees, 49.09 minutes west longitude.
She rolls her eyes and says, "You must be a Democrat!"
"I am," replies the man. "How did you know?"
"Well," answers the balloonist, "everything you tell me is technically correct, but I have no idea what to do with your information, and I'm still lost. Frankly, you're not much help to me."
The man smiles and responds, "You must be a Republican."
"I am," replies the balloonist. "How did you know?"
"Well," says the man, "You don't know where you are or where you're going. You've risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot air. You made a promise that you have no idea how to keep, and now you expect me to solve your problem. You're in exactly the same position you were in before we met, but, somehow, now it's my fault."
Dream like you will live forever; live like you will die today.
he HAS to know...he has to..that if we go over the fiscal cliff...he..and his party will be held responsible...did he learn SQUAT from the elections???....
False. Obama deserves just as much as the blame. It takes 2 to tango and to completely blame one side over the other is just wrong.
Sorry, but the polls say otherwise.
I'm sorry, I don't function on polls. I function on reality. Not what others perceive as reality
Yes, we know. Look how well that worked for Romney.
You're right. I can't have an opinion. I should just look at polls and base my decisions off of those.
And where did I say that I was for or against either side? I clearly said both sides will be to blame. But thanks for jumping to conclusions.
JRC ...
If the GOP would work on saving the country rather than their collective a$$es it might be true. The theme of all of the Sunday news shows (sans Fox) was that the Republican party were more worried about their image and pledge to Grover than the fiscal cliff.
Hey, that's some good advice for the Republican party! Especially a certain former presidential candidate. Hahahaha!
It's obvious by the way Boehner and the rest of the comedy troupe are talking that they are trying the "tough guy" act. It's just coming across the same as it did last year. All bravado. The only difference is that it's not going to work this time.........And they know it!
Now, if the GOP could just stop pissing their pants every time Grover looks their way, they might have a chance.
If Obama would stop campaigning and actually work with those people who matter in both parties something might get done. What good does putting out videos do at this point?
the GOP is the entire problem.. Not both sides.. You had a chance to compromise from 2008 - 2012, and all the GOP did is obstruct
Republicans have demonized union labor, have demonized students and education, have started up multiple wars, continue to offer tax breaks
AND hte facts is over the last 50 years Republicans have increased spending considerably more then any democrat, they have grown government more then any democrat and they refuse ot change there polices that are the problem
The campaigning BS has got to stop. The President is doing some campaign-type ADs to promote his plan. As for him actively "campaigning" where is that coming from? (Fox) and what is he campaigning for exactly? The videos are to disseminate information. They were used by both sides in the real campaign, remember?
And ... I do believe that there were quite a few meetings with Boehner and Co. in the previous weeks as well as with the Chamber of Commerce and other parties.
He can't negotiate without an audience, and he is afraid to go face-to-face.
Alaska- I read Simpson Bowles, and it is a good plan. BO never mentions that plan...GOP does...I hope you're happy when small business evaporates as will the middle class (they will take a step into the poorest class).
The rich won't buy homes, the newly exterminated middle class won't, so there will be less property taxes for the 'let's take it and give it to our favorite downtrodden peeps' crowd to play with, infrastructure will not get rebuilt, because even if you don't want to admit it, organized labor does not own the construction industry as they do the Government Motors ilk...Welfare will be stretched even thinner, because I, and millions like me will have gone from middle to impoverished class, and no one will want to clean your home, wash your clothes and take care of your brats while you are out fundraising for the next liberal hopeful, because your maid WON'T BE ABLE TO AFFORD THE GAS TO DRIVE TO YOUR HOUSE. But that's oK, because Barry is on tape saying that Americans and American Business will have to be taxed into compliance, and that it will take "admittedly a good bit of money and 10 to 15 years to effect a change and implement a system. Welcome to the new world. Hope you like potato soup, because that is where we are headed. Wonder how things will feel up there when the lights go out because you cannot afford your golden boy's fees and tariffs on coal generated electricity.
Cold potato soup sucks, even if you do call it vichyssoise....
Wow. Sounds like you are living the good life right now, what with a housekeeper and apparently a live in baby sitter. Wish we were all doing as well as you presume to be doing. I think you are going off the rails in your thinking. If any of what you say IS going to happen, it would have already happened due to the cluster @!$%# that Bush left us with. We have come out of that and things are looking better. You people just have a very pessimistic view is all. You must be the "cup is half empty" personality.
Did you know that an estimated 6.9% of the population is estimated to purchase homes in 2013? That is a record high number. We haven't seen a percentage like that since 2008. Did you also know that consumer confidence is an all time high since the @!$%# hit the fan in 2008-09? Did you also know that the price of gasoline is up or down depending on the global economy and also Wall Street speculators? Did you also know that infrastructure building/rebuilding/repairs/improvements has been moving at a faster pace over the last 3 years? In part due to the 2009 stimulus package that president Obama got passed. U.S. manufacturing is up, as well as new construction. That's just a little of what I have time to spell out for you at this time.
Frankly, I think that Boehner could care less who gets "BLAMED" by the Marxist press...
The Republicans are going to be blamed, no matter what, so who the hell cares?
Part of me says to let Obama have his way- on EVERYTHING- so that when it all collapses- and it will- he'll OWN it...
Problem, is that it will put us beyond the point of no return.
And, we cannot allow our Republic to turn into the United States of Greece.
New revenues, AND SIGNIFICANT spending reductions. Period. Stand your ground, Mr. Speaker.
John Boehner is the worst Speaker the House has ever had. He is not a leader and this is proven every time he opens his mouth. It's sad that he lets this tea bag group in the House boss him around.
Also, for the year 2013 the House is scheduled to be is session for 126 days. Wow, a great part time work schedule with a great salary and benefits for doing almost nothing.
It's time for Mr. Boehner to do the right thing and step aside as speaker.
Once again...the lie perpetuated...this time by wordsmith. Again, for the brain-dead Repugs...Simpson/Bowles included TAX HIKES. Cherry-picking simpson/bowles and saying your plan is based on it is tantamount to a lie. But, please, keep spreading the lies, it makes your side look more desperate. And, it also pisses off the people who know better. If you think that's a winning strategy, please, oh please, keep promoting it and we'll talk again in 2014...
Yeah it's all about the small business owners, huh Wordsmith?
Sounds like you are pressing for Feudalism:
The rich buy homes
the poor clean them for peanuts
the factory workers work in non-union jobs that don't pay enough to sustain a middle -class lifestyle
the small business owners turn into little kings due to lower taxes and drop the wages they pay their workers because the workers have no choice than to work for nothing to survive.
That is the vision of the GOP, Wordie. And it will work until there is a revolution like your rich a$$ cannot even imagine---
When your home is stormed by pitchfork and torch carrying poor people that used to be your employees and your business evaporates because you insisted on destroying their ability to create demand, you better hope you have a panic room and LOTS of canned goods........
Caligula ASSUMES that the GOP is using the ENTIRE Bowles plan. And Caligula would be a dum-bass at that point.
Basically you are all saying that if we only taxed the Rich more we would be ok?
I guess I fail to see how that is going to make a bit of difference.
I think we should just let all of the tax cuts expire and see how that goes.
Companies are bigger because the taxes we have reward that. Companies out source because we as consumers want lower prices. For all practical purposes all politicians are part of the 1%. Look at who has gained the most in net worth over the last 4 years. There are quite a few Democrats on that list. Nancy Polosi is one of them.
Most of the posters on this site do not care about higher taxes as long as it does not effect them! The reason I am against higher taxes for anyone is that sooner or later they will get to me. At the state level they already have.
As mentioned the reason why there are tax breaks for home owner ship, and children is that we as a country are better off with both. Look at the problems that they are having on the east coast with super high population densities. This was one storm, that effected millions of people. Without power how do you get up and down from the tenth floor?
In the overall power needs how does that save us energy?
Without trees and plant life how do we lower our CO2 emissions?
I'll bet you believe in the Tooth Fairy too (twinkle..twinkle). Senior GOP Law Writers literally plotted to sabotage, undermine and destroy America's Economy in order to undermine the President and destroy his electability. They met the day Obama was elected. Here's the list of patriots:
Frank Luntz
Rep. Paul Ryan (R-WI)
Rep. Eric Cantor (R-VA)
Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-CA),
Rep. Pete Sessions (R-TX),
Rep. Jeb Hensarling (R-TX),
Rep. Pete Hoekstra (R-MI)
Rep. Dan Lungren (R-CA),
Sen. Jim DeMint (SC-R),
Sen. Jon Kyl (AZ-R),
Sen. Tom Coburn (OK-R),
Sen. John Ensign (NV-R) and
Sen. Bob Corker (TN-R).
...and Newt Gingrich
Some old wise sayings just aren't that wise.
Homie...a clown indeed!
I don't even have to respond. People only need read your post and know the facts to know a clown when they see one...
Tell me, have you ever heard of "The Emperor's New Clothes"? The Republican party is naked in front of the world...no one but corporatists, fascists, bigots, religious nut jobs and the greedy-for-greeds-sake is ever voting republican again...unfortunately, that's still a sizable portion of the electorate...
Ol_Doc: It doesn't matter what was said 4 years ago, Obama was re-elected, remember, and he will share in the responsibility if we go over the cliff. History will record the Obama Presidency and nobody will even remember who was in control of Congress.
Actually, Believe'nAmerica, the whole "fiscal cliff" deal lay's squarely at the feet of Republicans. You must remember this whole ordeal arose due to their unwillingness to compromise on a budget in 2010. Now, since we still have a sickly economoy(thank you "Job creators") this is a proverbial suicide pill for the economy, one borne out of an inability to compromise. Of course the joke is on the GOP constituency, being fed a lie that arbitrary tax cuts are stimulative to the economy, and being led to believe that greed at the upper income levels is non-exsistant. The only way top end tax cuts are effective is to use them as an incentive for good hiring and pay practices, to encourage the business, both in personel and equipment, which then becomes a proxy investment in this country.
Actually the fiscal cliff is in regards to the spending cuts that the republican party demanded with the debt ceiling debate last year. Now that those cuts are about to happen they are crying foul on it, but remember we were on the cliff with the debt ceiling and we paid with our credit rating.
The whole idea that they could get a committee to stop acting like three year olds long enough to work out a deal was ludicrous. Anyone paying attention during the debt ceiling debates knew we were heading towards disaster with it. Mandatory cuts without thought to where and why, but hey they made their point right?
Oh, I'm sure he will "share" in the blame...just not nearly as much as the entire Republican Congress and specifically the Teabaggers. According to all the polls I've see...they will take a major hit. 2014 should be interesting. Read some recent articles about GOP leadership. They are freaking out about the lack of "quality" candidates in the GOP (their word not mine).
While Republicans have agreed in principle that richer Americans can shoulder a greater share of the tax burden, they insist this must be achieved through ending loopholes and deductions, rather than raising rates
Ok... so where is their plan describing these "loopholes" and their plan to close them WITHOUT creating new ones in the process?
It's simple. So simple I can't believe Democrats can't understand it.
You simply cap deductions.
What does this do for the middle and lower classes:
For the middle and lower classes, this method allows for all currently available deductions to remain available to them. Depending on where you actually cap it, will determine who actually gets to deduct everything they are deducting now.
If you cap it at $50,000/year in deductions, those making less than $250,000 will see no change in what they can deduct. This would raise approx $800 Billion in revenue.
If you cap it at $25,000/year in deductions, those making less than $125,000 will see no change in what they can deduct. This would raise approx $1.2 Trillion in revenue.
What does caping deductions do for the rich:
Again, depending on where the cap is set, those making over $250,000, if you cap it at $50,000/year, and for those making over $125,000/year, if you cap it at $25,000, will see the taxes they pay out go up....significantly!!!! They will simply be able to deduct whatever they can now, up to the cap amount. Above that, they will be taxed. So instead of being able to deduct hundreds of thousands, or in some cases millions, they would only be able to deduct up to the cap.
It's a win for everyone!!! It allows middle and lower classes and small businesses to continue to deduct for things that benefits themselves and the people they serve, while also increasing revenue for the government.
The real question is not what loopholes or deductions the Republicans want to close, but rather, why are Democrats so dead set on raising rates, and leaving those deductions AVAILABLE to the rich???
Republicans are trying to simplify the tax code, and Democrats are trying to complicate it further!!
but they haven't offered these details
Well said TheDougler!
Where's Feisty and seeking Sanity when you need them to read logic. That's right, they're bashing republicans with petty insults when they lack their own intelligence to comprehend logic. Damn inner city Chicago education has really screwed those two!
I'm with you on this one.I don't like the proposal of reducing Medicare spending which we know is riff with fraud.Senior citizens cannot afford to bear more costs for their health issues.
Well stated TheDougler960608,
Not sure why both parties can't see loophole deductions as a win/win. I think because it does not fil the narrative of class warfare as well as "Hey let's stick it to the rich and make them pay for everything"
@dongworkyuda.......perhaps not in this particular offer, which is really more of a guideline than a proposal.
The amount you cap is up for discussion, and would certainly have to be part of the agreement, but that's exactly what they are talking about.
@justacleaninglady.
You have to understand something about Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid.
All of these systems are not sustainable. One of two things is going to happen with these systems. Either they will continue to pay out at their current rates and one day they will take a significant drop in what they can pay out, and that will continue to happen until they can't pay out anything. Or you can start to extend these programs, by changing them so the hit people take is less painful. It's your choice.
Dougler,
I dunno, your cap on deductions sounds good on paper, but call me a cynic, I see new loopholes poping up to defeat the purpose
Some of us have no deductions.
the problem i see is that their proposal didnt mention anything about capping deductions. all it said was they wanted to close loopholes. what loopholes, and who do those loopholes effect. they need to let us know the citizens, what loopholes they want to close, and who it will effect the most. let us see true transparency by them on both sides, and i will begin to consider if what both sides offer as a good plan.
I actually think ALL deductions need to be eliminated. That would be one part of it. The second part would be cutting military spending and limiting entitlement to a 2 year max in any 15 year period (with the exception of SS for citizens over 65 only SS disability not included)
@ lori. Simply being a cynic doesn't mean you'll see new "loopholes" open up. Again, no deductions will be taken away in this plan. Which means people who aren't rich won't see any difference in what they are doing now. While also taxing the rich more. There is no loophole to add!!
@ Maxwell.....that's probably because you have nothing to deduct, or perhaps you need a new accountant. And if you are unfortunate enough to be someone who simply doesn't earn anything, or are in real need of government assistance (welfare), then you wouldn't have anything to deduct anyway. You have to earn something, and risk something, if you want to deduct something.
TheDougler . . .
And for all of those that give freely to universities, hospitals, clinics, etc., should we just tell them "sorry, TheDougler decided your charitable giving had to be capped because the GOP thinks Grover knows best . . .?"
@ eric. If you didn't read my post and understand it, then I don't know if I can help you. I laid it out pretty plainly.
@spitfire....What you are saying would certainly put a big dent into the deficit problem, however in this economy, anything that touches the middle class, will likely hurt the middle class and the economy.
@ Layton......I missed the part where anyone had a plan that said someone couldn't give to charities anymore. Capping deductions doesn't keep you from giving to charities, it just keeps high income earners from being able to deduct that money (over the cap) come tax time.
If someone wants to give a million dollars to a charity, they can still do it, you just can't deduct it all when you do your taxes. It's not complicated.
Dougler- These tax cuts of the last 10 years have made the middle class financially irresponsible. People are constantly spending excessive amounts of money for things they WANT, not need. Then these same citizens point out how the government overspends. The Middle class is getting squeezed, but they could survive it if people didn't make poor financial decisions. I am middle class, but I have ZERO credit card or medical debt. I have a wife and 3 kids, and we are responsible enough to know that we don't need a car every year or a house that is more than we can afford.
@ spitfire...
I don't think the tax cuts made people be irresponsible. I'm in the same position as you, middle class, with no to insignificant debt (I might buy something that takes me 2 or 3 months to pay off)
I think it's simple education that has done that. People who are irresponsible with the money they have, or don't have for that matter, were going to be so whether the tax cuts happened or not. I have a hard time pointing at tax cuts as being the sole cause of that.
Dougler,
Please provide a link to this fabulous fantasy plan that supposedly favors the middle class. There isn't one is there?
Dougler-
I'm in the process right now of obtaining my first college degree at 33. I don't think education has as much do do with it as circumstances and society. People fall in to the trap all the time.
If we cut deductions, Brought all the troops that are overseas home (and I mean every last on not on US soil, and legalized and taxed marijuana we would be at least part of the way on the right track.
If the GOP's proposal doesn't include huge tax cuts for the top 2% Washington DC will freeze over..
@ Bill.
I never said it "favors" the middle class. Unless you consider "favors the middle class" as keeping things just as they are. But the idea of capping deductions has been around a while, and was a part of Romney's overall plan. Again, I said it was just a part of it. It was the part of it that the CBO actually likes!!!
Here is a link to the Tax Policy Center, and their breakdown of eliminating deductions, capping deductions at $17,000, or $25,000, or $50,000.
this chart shows how much additional revenue would be brought in each year over the next ten years.
@ Bill.
No one is talking about Tax cuts for the top 2%. Romney was the only one talking about tax cuts, and he was talking about tax cuts for the 100% of Americans.
Don't let you dislike for an opposing party get in the way of understanding what is actually being talked about here.
@spitfire.
I think there are situations where both play into it, however, in the big picture, overall, people who are going to be irresponsible, are going to be irresponsible whether you tell them not to do it, or never tell them anything. That's the point I was trying to make.
I agree with your second part though. and the sheer amount of revenue that could be obtained by taxing that stuff (at a high rate, or even at a moderate rate) could certainly have the potential to be a game changer.
TheDougler ...
No, it's not complicated but it doesn't encourage charitable donations does it? Please give me your thoughts on how, if those deductions are capped and people say, start hiding their monies in the Caymans, etc., this would help our country.
@ Layton
This is not a discussion about how to keep people from keeping their money offshore.
This was a discussion about what was set forth by the Republicans, and I was merely explaining the concept of raising revenue by capping deductions, without having to raise the actual rates.
And if people need a tax deduction to encourage them to give to charitable causes, then they were never really supporting those causes. You may see a reduction in charitable donations, but I think largely, people who want to give, will give, and they don't do so because of a deduction. Secondly, you could certainly allow for charitable donations to be deductable to a higher amount, or an unlimited amount if you want, but you'll only hamper how much revenue the government will bring in, if you are looking at it from that point of view.
But all this is why you have discussions. You work some of those issues out, to best benefit the most people.
That's kind of the point Layton. This liberal administration does not want charitable donations made at all. They "know what's best" and prefer to have the money pooled via increased taxes, then distributed to those they feel are most deserving. There's a term for this, but democrats get mad when you use it. I think they just don't like big words.....confuses them a bit.
in hte middle ...
Dude, you don't know the definition of liberal. Being one, I can tell you that is NOT the case. For all of you that think 47% of this country sits on their butts and do nothing but suck the money out of your wallet, I would think you would encourage charitable giving.
Thanks for that snotty little insult.
Last thought ... the whole "cap on deductions" idea was Mitt's.
@Layton,
Not originally, but it was an idea that he promoted, amongst other things, regarding taxes, etc.
Obama has already come out and spoken positively about it. Just because Romney promoted it, doesn't make it a bad idea, as much as you democrats want to think that.
Again, this was an idea that the Tax Policy Center, and CBO promote!
While simply capping deductions isn't the entire answer, it certainly helps, and all around it's an improvement. It also brings in roughly 150 Billion dollars more than raising the rates of the top 2%, as Obama is suggesting.
Why can't the republican party cut a new brand awareness of being the Smart party. But this other perception walks though our media as standing only for those who make so much money they will pay millions to hold on to it - hum one wonders why would you let this view have such a hold when there are only so few with those votes while the masses vote too.
If the republican party is leaning so forward to be the party of responsible why not start with their own house or those employed by the people they so desperately want to win over. If Federal employees have incomes that are.. 21 percent or higher than the private sector, would it not win friends and influence people by being smart about this. Would the fight not be the current perception but turn to satisfy the hunger this county so desires. Fairness and trust. And then would the party then be considered... smart.
It is a small idea but then it would be standing up for those voters they seem to have forgotten.
Allowing tax breaks that were intended to expire two years ago, expire isn't exactly raising taxes. Obama doesn't have to do anything and those rates will go back to the intended amount. I agree with you Thedougler, it would be more helpful to cap deductions. Romney paid 14% for two years and the thirteen previous years he legally filtered his money through the church and was tax exempt. They made that little loophole illegal a year after Romney started doing it but allowed those that were grandfathered in to continue. The tax system is a mess, and we have a major spending problem too. You are oversimplifying the problems and I have seen no indication from republicans that they have any desire to fix them. They run elections based on spending and out spend the democrats usually, they spend billions to criticize bailouts and federal spending while putting their collective hands out. Sorry I think that neither side has put forth any viable plan at this point and republicans can't win the tax war. They need a signature they aren't going to get from Obama, no matter how much they want it.
@ Jan.
It's apparent you have inside information, if you know what Romney did with his taxes prior to 2011.
Say what you will about Romney's taxes, but everything he did was legal, when it came to taxes. But that's not why we're here.
The tax system is a mess. And I don't think this is over simplification. It's only simplifying a portion of the tax code. This is not a tax system overhaul, but rather a step in the right direction.
The simple fact that republicans are offering up the idea of a simpler tax code is showing a desire to fix them.
Republicans do run elections by trying to outspend the democrats, except Republicans largely do it with PRIVATE money. Whereas Obama raised more, partialy by hooking up the unions, only to receive donations back from them.
I think at the end of the day, Obama will have to make a move, and turning down anything that appears reasonible in the eyes of the American people, would only hurt himself. Or I've underestimated the stupidity of the people in masses.
By the way Jan, if allowing the tax cuts to expire isn't "raising taxes", then democrats can't say that keeping tax rates as they are would be republicans "lowering taxes" on the rich, like they so often do, and did in this MSN article
Try reading Bloomberg business and they did release all of the information on exactly how Romney was able to live tax free for thirteen years legally, what that tells me the system is fundamentally flawed and republicans have given me no reason to trust what they say about anything. If I had it my way the entire capital hill would have been overturned and we would elect adults willing to talk. We have two wars unfunded on public funds, how is that requiring private funds? Problem is republicans don't practice what they preach, and the fact that they are now crying over the spending cuts they demanded to raise the debt ceiling tells me they are no better than democrats. Tell me again what person in their right mind solves their fiscal problems by begging their bosses for a pay cut? I really don't care what MSNBC calls the tax breaks, the fact is they were intended to expire.
@ Jan.... I was speaking to the elections themselves in regards to private funds.
Secondly, you said earlier that I'm oversimplifying this.....I'll ask you...how exactly does complicating these issues make them more effecient and cost effective? Perhaps we need a simplification in many parts of government.
I laugh when people talk about the "rich" "hiding money", when the biggest culprits of this are government officials themselves. Those people get away with everything under the sun, yet no one seems to care.
Here's a thought, how about we stop worrying about who started any of this, and actually work to fix it. (which I think is what you meant by clearing out capital hill) Consider all ideas, and understand that NOTHING should be off the table. But also understand that simple revenue increases will do very little to fix the overlying problem...SPENDING, and staying within a budget.
Either purple to match Boner's tie or orange to match his oompah loompah skin tone.
At least the GOP made a counter-offer to Obama's offer. Not saying we're close to a deal, but at least they're starting to negotiate. This is how a deal is made. I see this as progress.
It won't end up being progress. It's happened several times before in the last 4 years. Tonight, maybe tomorrow, Obama will be on TV telling everyone how bad the plan and the Republicans are, and nothing will get done. He'll imply the Republicans are evil, out of touch and just don't care. He'll state that he is not budging on his demands, because his plan is the only good one and that they are just playing politics. He is the great divider.
Let's just hope Pres. Obama doesn't do that and is willing to man-up and sit down with Boehner and discuss what is best for the country.
lala land thats good-about what could expect from the party of no
The Republicans aren't serious.
Yeah Tony you're probably right. However, if Obama gives them a counter proposal more to their liking and they balk, it will be just as much of political suicide as going over the cliff just sooner!
Just notice the comments in here, all the name calling, mocking this party or that party... and then we wonder why the leaders act the way they do... some of you calling out Boehner or Reid need to look in the mirror. To be clear, I support Obama.
I have 0 like or tolerance for the GOP, and if civil war is what is needed to cleanse us of this then so be it.
Republicans are the majority of the problem... All the math and economic realites proves that economies over the last 50 years have been better or improving while democrats hold office, and they always get worse while Republicans hold office
Lets do it dongwork. Come to my place so I can blow you away. One less radical dem is better anyway!
Even if you're right and I doubt you are 100% right... it's still not right for people to act the way they do in these chat rooms. That's part of the problem. Civil war? Really? And I suppose you think you're part of the solution.
A totally un-acceptable, laughable proposal. Norquist is wetting his pants, from laughter.
As obama's proposal wasn't laughable? At least the republican one is seated this side of reality.
Alex,
The Republicans will get the blame. It's all about perception: Republicans are willing to tax the middle class, protect those who can most afford to pay more taxes, all because of a pledge to a lobbyist. That sounds REALLY bad to the average person trying to make ends meet. Obama knows this. He's gonna see how much he can get.
Personally, I'm happy the Republicans put forward a proposal that wasn't an ideological wet-dream. That's all they did in 2011. But they're still not getting it. Obama ran on a platform of "tax the rich" and won. The rich are gonna get taxed at the end of all this. There's no way around it.
Same old Republican bullshyt! Kill medicare and name the murder something else. Kill Social Security and name the murder something else. Kill healthcare and name the murder something else. Give the savings to their rich friends and call the heist help for the "Job creators". Get this through your skulls America. What the GOP is proposing is "killing" old and helpless people! Some slowly, but most surely. Even though the GOP Plans are creating jobs. They are only in Communist China, and other Socialist slave labor enclaves! What it is creating in America is unprecedented wealth and riches for the top 2%. Then they cynically get their, dumb, ignorant and blind grassroots minions ginned up with racism, sexism and every other negative "ism". Wave the flag and call this a "Pro America" agenda and plan.
Absolutely Insulting!
JohnnyB....how dumb are you?
Do some research and find out how wrong your post is. Republicans are trying to save those programs now, not take money from them like the Dems plan to and eventually kill them over time.
Radical Stupidity!!!
Get a job numb nuts and please lay off the bong. Handouts are for the poor in need, not the greedy like yourself!
JohnnyB....the only thing insulting is your blind hate for your fellow Americans....GOP has, in fact, moved away from their original proposal toward Obama's....Obama's has not budged an inch. This is compromise?
Why did you even bother to respond? I am dumb enough to have Advanced degrees from the University of Wisconsin. Which High School did you tap out in Einstein? Republicans have been trying to kill Roosevelt era New Deal Programs like Social Security for over 60 years. They have been trying to kill Johnson era social programs like Medicare and voting/civil rights for over 40 years. And they launched Reagan era social programs like welfare giveaways/subsidies and taxcuts for the rich. GOP programs promoted the hyper growth and proliferation of supply side, trickle down economics and Six Sigma corporate reingineering that created the great economic collapse of 2007! Republican programs exploded the outsourcing and the vulture capital/junk bond/stock trading model for entrenching profitablility for the wealthiest at the expense of the middle.
Republicans don't give a rat's a.s.s about Social Security or Medicare unless they can privatize and pilfer it for the rich and powerful. The program doesn't need fixing or saving. It needs to be protected from your corporate raider GOP wolves masquerading as sheeps. I see they didn't have to be too clever to fool an epic dumbass like you.
It fairly obvious that you are not rich, smart or wealthy. Or you sure wouldn't be wasting your time on this blog throwing your spitballs at me and other progressives. So I surmise you are just an ignorant dupe, from the minions I referenced, who is trapped by your own stupidity. I like many others are citizens who are genuinely concerned about victims of this landslide redistribution of wealth under Reagan era economics. Like all Progressives on this thread we know the truth and the facts which support it. Republicans are the cause of this economic carnage. And President Obama and Democrats are the cure.
You offered no facts or useful information in your goofball rebuttal. Just silly, kindergarden level personal, incoherent taunts. So I'll just chalk it up to your own challenged IQ. Likely around 75-95 from the scale of your comment. In other words, just enough to walk in a straight line, without the aid of any inebreation. BTW, my own IQ is a well tested 167. Which makes me decidedly average in the crowd I hang out with. What's yours genius?
@Larry in NC-2289230:
Three things.
Just depends on what side you stride when you read my posts man.
johnny b..a degree doesnt guarantee one has all the answers and it sure doesnt keep political bias in check either. Republicans have plenty of good answers just as democrats. It just doesnt sink in on those who think their way is the only way. I see fault in both Parties plan of action and i also find fault on Washington forgetting to get a budget again. raising taxes wont solve Washingtons spending or borrowing, and there will have to be some major cuts down the line, unfortunatly no matter who is in charge they always tend to screw it up and make things worse 5 years from now. Social Security has been a Campaign speech for the past twenty years or more and yet not one has actually tried to tackle this. Obama even promised in his first run for office, and the four Presidents before him. Seeing how Obamacare was dragged thru the process, social security and medicare is going to be a hard one.
@Bill Morin:
I essentially agree with your comment. And I do know a few PHD's who could bend your mind on just how smart they are. Even though, upon conversation and inspection they are just ordinary Joe's. Just opinionated. As I am. I also see faults in both Parties. The Faults in the GOP however are just catastrophic deal breakers for me. Not on any of the financial or business points. Those are always debatable. And should be. Becuase economic certainties should define the political solutions. I completely disagree with the GOP on their social agenda. IMO it is not conservative. It is a radical, retrogressive leap backwards. And if truly engineered into our country, it would make life, liberty and justice for all, unachievable, unlivable and unstable for way too many people.
Social Security and Medicare are not entitlement programs. They are insurance policies and bonds that we as Americans invest in and fully pay for for ourselves and preceding generations. In this case the broker is the US Government instead of a Wall Street Hedge Fund Manager. That narrow argument is the only debatable premise between Conservatives and liberals in the Social Security dust up. To privatize or not? That's the question. Thank God we didn't privatize it in the Bush/Reagan era. Or we would have millions upon millions of broke and destitute Baby Boomers on the streets today. Most without a hope or prayer after the collapse of 2007.
The rate of return on Social Security is predictable and guaranteed by the US government. Unless proceeds are pledged or diverted elsewhere as collateral or debt security/guaranty instruments. Pledged for borrowing for illegal wars such as, wink-wink, IRAQ or checkbook balancing. But that is criminally illegal. Even though it appears to be a possibility that occured and hidden under the Bush Administration. Hence the ginned up emergency by Republicans. This program doesn't need to be touched for those who already invested in it. It is not an entitlement that one just throws on a bargaining table by any party. Longer life expectancy has nothing to do with the 2033 gap. According to real actuarial data, that has only really significantly changed for the wealthy, who have the means and resources to pursue longer life. If this is a problem without a crime, then it can be easily fixed for the next 100 years by forcing the rich to put higher amounts into the fund as a percentage of their gross income.
Taxation is supposed to be a bi-partisan process that the government uses like a plebicite, to better all of our lives or meet national emergencies. No Party has a pure record on taxation. Upon that premise I can agree with you.
For all of you taking one side or the other just because of party you are the problem and not the solution and will always be a problem.
First I will say I could not care less what either party leader has to say unless they are talking about real conesessions from both sides. Obama is not capable of real negotiations. Boehner, Pelosi, and Reid also are very incapable people.
But to make matters worse you all are the ones that allow them to get away with it. Try getting a brain of your own instead of being the talking mouths of MSNBC and Fox fools. If this goes over the cliff everyone will feel the pain except for the fools in Washington and that will because of fools like those on this board that let them get away with it. Instead of acting stupid on here and bickering with each try being your own person for once and tell your representative to start acting in good faith.
JohnnyB: Where in the Republican proposal do you see killing medicare/SS? Take a reading class or something. That's just plain dumb.
The loopholes are easy to list, they've been mentioned before. The biggie is to close that "only for the rich" loophole - The mortgage interest deduction. What's that? You're not rich and you have a mortgage? Tough luck, guy.
The loopholes that would make any dent at all in the deficit are of course the ones that also affect the middle class. The mortgage deduction is probably the biggest deduction that the average person can get, and it makes a huge difference to families. The other one is the charitable deduction - which is also very helpful to the middle class - to those who itemize. Messing with the mortgage deduction (unless it was simply capped at an amount that is above what most middle class people pay) would devastate the housing industry and wreak havoc on family budgets. Getting rid of the charitable deduction would kill nonprofits across the country. That should not be capped at all. If a billionaire wants to give millions and millions to charitable causes, that's doing a lot of good for the world and more power to them. Take that away, and charities will be turning to the government for help.
The only reason any of the 2% have mortgages is because the tax deduction subsidizes their rate and frees up the money for investing. So ending that deduction wouldn't hurt them.
im not rich my wife and i are middleclass and have yet to be able to use the mortgage deduction. we can never seem to make the deductible amount, so we can use deductions on our taxes. every year we go to our accountant we are like, wow i think we have enough this time to make deductions, just to find that the limit has been raised again so we cant make them.
eric1964: Exactly, that's why it only affects those making $250K+. Raising taxes on the rich won't work unless they also don't get all the deductions and loopholes available. The rich will find a way to use the deductions and loopholes to their advantage.
I think the Mortgage Interest Deduction should just be capped. A 700 sq foot condo in a city is shelter. It serves a basic need. A 7,000 sq foot mansion is a luxury. A single home is a shelter. Anything more than 1 is a luxury. Let the mansion owner deduct up to $300K in interest on one property.
Closing a tax loop hole of $20 billion does not result in $20 billion in revenue. It simply means people adapt and stop using the loop hole.
A good example, is Reagan closed several loop holes, expecting additional revenue. However, that did not occur.
It's one of the reasons the US deficit tripled during Reagan's 8 years in office.
The other reason was the massive tax cuts to the rich.
Revenue increased every year under Reagan, except for 1983. Per OMB data (table 1.3)
Revenue in current dollars
1981 - $599.3 bill
1988 - $909.3 bill
wow just 909 billion id take that
Revenue has doubled every 10 years since the great depression. However during the Reagan years, it was the lowest growth rate since the great depression. Lower tax rates = lower revenues. It's not rocket science. The only positive thing from that is a faster than expected growth in GDP, but that translates to slightly increased revenues far in the future.
Tell little Timmy and Obama to take a hike, let's go over the cliff, I'm middle class and I'm ready for the ride.
I am a fiscal conservative, and based on the current mood of the nation, this proposal just seems stupid. Let's not raise the top tax rate but instead raise the social security age while reducing the inflation percentage given when we know the current inflation we are seeing harms even normal working people. So let's take away several sources of public funding for older people on fixed incomes, make it longer for them to retire, and anyone that makes it in the top tax bracket gets basically no cuts or tax increases put on them. I'm not one to say "spread the wealth" as it's a very foolish and proven disaster that this policy does not and will not ever work, but to go total opposite and say "hit the poor" will give you the same result. At this point, I'd be happier to go over the fiscal cliff and give everyone a tax hike.
Good post and without the juvenile name calling.
And you left out the bonus of raising the retirement age - now you make people who are "too old to hire" also "too young to retire." So many young viable seniors will get to live in poverty for so many golden years!
Pretty much here's how it is supposed to work: during a crisis, you spend. During a boom, you make it back. The problem is, we were doing that until Bush cut taxes. Then when we had not one but two crises (9/11 and the fiscal collapse) all we could do is amass debt. For the stage we are in and the magnitude of the crisis, we're where we should be: deep in the red. Now we gotta pay for it. And it should start with those who were largely unaffected by the economic downturn. The top income earners just bunkered themselves through this recession while other folks lost their jobs, then their homes. A jobless, homeless person isn't a good source for revenue. The people with money are.
Well, there's a couple of problems with your position:
First of all, the national debt really started to take off during Reagan's watch and has grown dramatically since then. We've had both democratic and republican presidents, so both sides have contributed to the problem. Obama, contrary to what many right wingers, who are told what to think by Fox News drones, is not such a big spender. True, the debt rose by $5T, but more than $3T was due to programs/policies already in existence before he took office.
Now, about top income earners.... How much extra revenue can we expect by shaking down the wealthy? The generally accepted amount for 2013 is sometthing like $53B - a lot of money, but in the context of the federal budget/debt, it's pocket change.
I suspect that the reason Obama is so fixated on the wealthy is because he knows that ultimately, everyone is gonna have to pay more and he may be thinking the pain will be more palatable if we all know that the rich are getting stuck as well....
Was John crying when he uttered LA_LA LAND?
Most of you are idiots HERE IT IS FOR YOU:
Obama is not stopping deficit spending and neither or the rebubs, both are only slowing
Liberal Math - it is better that Mitt Romney's math, See.
1.2 Trillion yearly deficit
1.6 Trillion in added revenue over 10 years
400 Billion in cuts over 10 years
100 Billion plus in additional spending over 10 years
So lets see
12 Trillion more in debt over 10 years
- 1.6 Trillion in added revenue over 10 years
- 400 Billi0n in cuts over 10 years
+ 100 Billion in new spending over 10 years
= 10.1 Trillion in new debt
Awesome math. I can now see how leaving entitlements alone and
just taxing the rich is going to work out great. I am so
thankful President Obama has showed me the way.
Here is something radical; an important part of our country's history is based on the premise of "no taxation without representation". How about we take it one step further and demand "no representation without taxation". Every American should have to pay at least $1 in federal income tax to get the right to vote. That would certainly change the dynamic in this country.
Yeah a constitutional amendment that says if you didn't pay taxes last year you don't get to vote this year... not paying in... you don't get to decide how it's spent.....
dUH jody,
Social security is a STAND-ALONE program that is NOT part of the federal budget. PLEASE stop trying to back-door it's demise by demonizing seniors!
Uh..Bill...not sure why you think this has to do with Social Security...let's be real...it will be a dead program by 2032. Our current leaders do not have the balls to look past 4 years into the future to do what is right long-term for our country. They are only looking to make sure they are elected again.
Jody - Your model is oversimplified at best, but your annual deficit assumption is simply incorrect. Please do a bit of research on projected deficits (which, btw, have been going down ever since Dubya left office) - methinks your math may need a bit of "rework". -Signed, The Idiot.
Why only income tax? Why limit it to only that one tax? The government takes in more taxes than just income tax? Why the focus on income tax?
The only bigger "boner" than John "Boner" is Mitch McConnell. Get rid of the two of them and we might see progress. John Boner is all about the Republican party just like Mitch.
Can they please take Lindsey Graham with them? Everytime he says, "this is what Lindsey Graham thinks ...'" I just want to throw something at my tv!
Rumor has it that Newt is building a moon base. Seems like a nice place for them all.
Please tell us what loopholes you want to close. Most are probably tax breaks for the middle class while protecting the tax loopholes for the rich. Please tell us the loopholes in your proposal.
Hey NBC, could you please create a comparison chart of the 2 proposals, so the public can compare them side by side and help us form the right opinion and subsquently take steps to press our congressman for the right solution.
My thoughts exactly. Let's see the content! Of both! In plain English please, not legalese.
I for one wouldn't openly welcome the austerity measures set to kick in, but if that's the only way to force the rates to increase, I'm ok with that.
I do not understand why the GOP digs in so hard against tax rates for the wealthy. The wealthy have had decades of income growth through low taxation, low capital gains, legal tax avoidance schemes, and unsavory programs allowing them to hide their wealth off shore.
I pity the GOP if they do not get real with the majority of Americans who want the rates to increase. I for one would support even my rates going up as Joe Blow lower middle class guy. Those that have, more is expected.
I also think of the waste in the industrial military complex, in Medicare.
My perscription:
1. Elimination of corporate welfare and tax deductions / loopholes on the wealthy "citizens" including corporations.
2. INCREASE the rates, even across the board, on a sliding scale to hit the wealthiest the hardest as they have the most to thrive on. They are not going to hurt on NEW revenues and can still cuddle up with their millions and billions they've already pocketed with the lowest rates in decades.
3. Massive spending cuts on unnecessary things like the Military Industrial Complex, massive cuts in Medicare through elimination of fraud and wasteful treatment. I'm ok with raising the age to 67 for the non-critical adults.
4. Massive investment in infrastructure projects...specific projects targeting Power Grid, Green Power, Highways, Utilities, Fresh Water, Nuclear, and education infrastructure.
5. Little or no funding of Afghanistan, Pakistan, or other 3rd world countries. Sending money does not change people to support America. Stop it. STOP IT.
6. Get out of these senseless wars. Out of Afghanistan. Out of the Middle East. Quick. Ahead of schedule. Take the dollars saved by getting out early and fund the VA for improved medical treatment and care of our vets.
7. Mandatory pay and benefits reduction (major) for congress across the board. Their gilded programs and pay...given that they are multi-millionaires...needs to stop. They don't work, they don't get paid. They need to put in 40 hours a week, 5 days a week. You want to campaign? Do it on your own time, on your own dime. Get at your desk. Get in the office. Do your damn job!
You don't understand why they dig on or don't care since you're not wealthy?
Its a glass ceiling of sorts. Grant the government this raise, in this environment, it won't be long before 150k a year is the new "rich". The inefficient government will continue to make promises it can't possibly keep, spend what it doesn't have, and use class warfare to let you know it isn't their fault. After that maybe 75k is the new rich and so on.. Eventually we become Greece..
This is the liberal myth that keeps being propagated by MSNBC and Dems. It forms that basis for the reason that exit polling during the election favored tax rises for the wealthy, plus the fact that "Sure, make the wealthy pay more". Typical class warfare stuff. I'm 1%. I pay a higher percentage of my gross salary to the government than ANYONE in the 99%. I already pay my fair share. I have no tax loopholes, no off shore account, no millions in the bank. Everything goes through a W-2 and therefore no fancy accounting at tax time. My salary is near $250K. This tax increase hits people like me and it also hits people who have small businesses who may not really be wealthy at all. Remember, we already pay more percentage of gross salary than ANYONE in the 99%.
The tax increase proposed doesn't even touch people in the stratosphere 0.1%. THOSE are the people with off shore accounts, millions in the bank, and capital gains and they are the ones paying less percentage of their gross than their accountant. Obama is going after people near $250K, he is not going after people in the stratosphere but the Dems have engaged in class warfare and misled their peeps on what this tax increase is really all about. It's about the massive nubmer of people near the $250K mark and not the small number of people in the 0.01% that really have egregious tax returns.
I'm not crying about possible tax increases, I don't mind paying a little more in taxes. If I do, I damn sure want to see the government curtail spending in a way that curbs this deficit and gets us moving int he right direction. I conduct my personal expenses in a fiscally sound way and I expect the government to do the same or I don't want to give them any more of my money that I EARNED.
If you are gonna discuss the tax increase at least frame it in the proper context and not the fantasy reasons Dems have brainwashed their followers to believe.
Any proposal that doesn't eliminate the Bush Tax Cut for the Wealthy is a non-starter. So it looks like the Republicans are intent on pushing our nation into default. So be it. We'll fix it at the mid-term elections by voting all Republicans out of office or watch our nation disolve. It's their choice.
Well said Get Real, finally, someone who actually makes sense. Thank you.
I' voting with the redhead....These Republicans just don't get it...Boehner needs to sober up or go back to Ohio where he belongs...He is the problem and needs to be gone....
John Boehner's comment about La La Land is rude and disrespectful to the President. Even if he disagrees with his philosophy, I find his tone condescending and downright nasty. No need for that!
The WH put forward a laughable proposal that did nothing except increase the debt. The fiscal cliff was Obama's idea in the first palce to avoid makiing serious cuts in order to raise the debt ceiling. Now the GOP puts forward a proposal intended to wabve a red flag in fron tof a blue bull. Obama so torged the GOP with his proposal that it was intended to get this type of response.This past weekend i was watching TV and saw a commeercial for First Alert. So maybe the democrats could come up with their own first alert medallion, it could be clalled First Unfair Medallion. When libs and other members of the 47% come across somethingthat they beleive is unfair, they could press the medallion and it would send an electonic signal to Pelosi, Reid, Obama and a 1/32 signal to Warren. They could then leap into their limo (which was paid for by taxpayers) and leap into action to save the day. Just like Mighty Mouse....
In case y'all forgot the Bush Tax Cut also applied to the middle class. I am in favor of return all taxes back to the Clinton Era, end tax deduction for political campagin contributions and put a limit on most tax deductions, place a 25% surcharge tax on corporations that hide their assets overseas (like GE) and require to drop their holier than thou attitude when their corporations owe back taxes (Buffett)or face a liquidation of their assets. Nothing could be fairer than to return the tax rates back to Clinton Era for one and all. afterall is that what the democrats always whine about being fair. it would seem that the GOP is able to overcome unfairness through hard work and sweat and the democrats just whine like a bunch of little school girls. Oh wah where's the beef?
"House Republican leaders outlined the contours of a deal."
What the hell does that mean?
That isn't a proposal, that's some chicken scratch written on a napkin.
The GOP is conceding Obama's pre-election demands, Obama won the election though and feels free to try and up the ante. An Obama "budget" will look like this:
Increased taxes on those making more than 250K (200 if single)
Defense cuts
Increased spending in the form of a "stimulus" to offset the drag of increasing taxes
Increased foreign aid.
Increased deficit and overall debt.
Obama will laugh all the way to Hawaii, which is going to cost another 14M. In addition to those costs hundreds of Navy, Coast Guard, HPD, and Marines will be inconvenienced by having to undertake the massive security operation over Christmas. I suppose its fitting since children elected Santa Clause...
So DAVE,
Please inform us of the sum required for BUSH to go to his ranch for a "working holiday" for half his administration.
Was that free? if not, SHUT THE 'F' UP!!
Spoken like a tool who won't be affected.
Bush's ranch visits most certainly weren't free, but there is a big difference between having to mobilize half an island, shutting down its major freeway, and having hundreds of active duty troops have to work through the holiday because you're an elitist prick who only cares about himself. Guess where I live and how I know? Its miserable when he gets here, the entire Island save for those who are prepared to sacrifice their first born to him, look forward to his departure. Obama heads over to K-Bay where they kick the Marines off the basketball court so he can have a private game, when our King decides he wants to play golf they cancel everyone's tee times and clear the course for hours. Ask me how I know.
Bill...If Bush wants to go to his own private ranch where they only people who are bothered are the secret service and a few admin officials, Id say that makes him a f**ing saint.
OH did I mention to you other idiots, if we don't do something about Medicare, Medicaid and SSN they are going to die anyway. They need help you and you retarded liberals keep talking about pushing granny off the cliff while in all actuality you already have her hanging over the cliff. I bet not a one of you passed math or took economics in school. DIMWITS.
If the Federal Government had to account for programs the way corporations
are required to fund programs, the U.S. government would have to put in $31
TRILLION TODAY - yes twice the national debt - to fund the gap in revenue vs
spending over the next 75 yrs for Medicare. Can you absorb that in your
mind?
The GOP talks of trying to address that issue and get ridiculed. To push this
issue further forward to our grandchildren and future generations without action
is IMMORAL!
RP
You don't get to support Obama and then lecture others on the morality of passing debt to future generations.
Pot.Kettle.Black.
I made straight A's in Econ.
And is this how you speak to people when they disagree with you? Are you proud of yourself?
Is this how you to talk at church? To children? To your family?
Boehner is either stupid or he thinks the public is. To suggest that the House has a viable plan in the Paul Ryan Plan is ridiculous. On November 6, 2012 we voted against the Paul Ryan which would take from the middle class and poor to give to the rich. Why would we change our mind now. Boehner and Mitch are old greedy white men who care only about themselves. With all the suffering we have experienced due to the Bush Administration policies, we deserve much better and will continue to fight for what is right for the whole country. The "fiscal cliff" is a contrived concept (probably by Frank Luntz) to try to scare the Democrats to do what is not in the best interest of their constituents (98% of the people).
You sure don't have the facts on your side. The deficit came about during the Bush Administration with outlandish spending. So you need to widen your news sources to understand the truth. Your fellow conservatives are going to rob you blind.
If the GOP had any real concerns over an alleged "fiscal cliff," they would have pulled the plug on Dubya Bush well over a decade ago. Any real or postured concern now is just another case of "too little, too late."
djj-951919
You surely are in fantasy land. The economic crash was due to Liberals trying to turn home ownership into another entitlement. Laws passed under Carter gave the govt leverage to force banks to loan to bad risks. Dodd and Frank protected Fannie and Freddie while they bought up all those crap loans. Then laws under Clinton allow Fannie and Freddie and banks to package those junk mortgages into securities and sell them to our 401Ks. Net result.. bank bailouts (which they paid back), Fannie and Freddie bailout (still owe taxpayers $200 Billion), loss of 1/3 of our 401Ks, and the housing market crash. So YOU actually use more than the six brain cells it takes you to parrot Progressive idiots making it up as they go, and know wtf you're talking about... because you obviously have no clue now.
Bush overspent what we take in by $3Trillion... Oblunder has squandered twice that... with is squandulus on autopilot to the tune of a trillion dollars deficit plus per year....
FED-UP,, you are a M0R0N. Stop watching FOX and listening to Rush, you'll go blind!
Hey Fed Up, to what party did Phil Gramm. Thomas Bliley and Jim Leach belong? Do you remember George Bush's American Dream Act? What selective memories you right wing nuts have! Talk about a fantasy land, the republicans are still pretending they won this election. You guys lost! Get it! Now get out of the way and let the country finally clean up the mess you guys made!
The bottom line is there is too much spending. You can look any day of the week and it just oozes out of the articles and news of money being spent on the most wasteful and useless ideas imaginable.
We have a serious problem with our spending and the soaking of the rich out of some desire to "show them rich b.......ds is ridiculous at best".
You that bash the rich should thank your lucky stars that there are successful and hard working people in this country...........otherwise where would all your "free stuff" come from.
Psst, dave: The Republicans did hold the House and thus maintained the status quo. They have leverage here.
BTW, to what party did Chris Dodd and Barney Frank belong?
The Republicans lost 8 seats in the House. So while they still have leverage (and still have responsibility to govern as majority status requires), their leverage is less now than it was before the Nov 6 election. The message from the electorate should be clear that they want both sides to compromise but they expect the Republicans to move further towards the President's position than they want the President to move towards the Republican's position.
Those in the House of Representatives don't go by what the "majority" wants. They are responsible to their constituents. Obama's position is raise taxes and increase spending. That is no compromise. The cuts need to come close to the increase in taxes. That is a compromise.
@Al-524682:
So what do you want cut that is near and dear to you and those important to yourself? And take it a step farther. If you and those favored ones represented the national debt, what would you want done to yourselves? Because both Parties are saying, you are the problem.
@ JohnnyB.
Raise revenue by capping deductions.
Reduce spending across the board by 1%, or 1 penny for every dollar spent.
Sounds like a damn good start to me!!
Hey richard in fla, if the rich weren't skimming quite so much off the top, the ones on the bottom wouldn't need so much free stuff. They could actually afford to buy it themselves! That is the problem you right wing nuts just can't seem to wrap your simple heads around.
Dave, not true. Rich do not skim off the top. And the bottom needs to fend for itself. This is not socialism...where the low end is somehow deserving of a slice of the pie. This is America- go earn it.
Anyone can start a company, anyone can invest in one...and can do so on your own terms. Failing yourself, and then concluding you can take from someone else is a cop out.
Steal with a gun go to jail.
Steal by signing a bill to take from high earners and give to lo class people...equals a trip to the White House.
Says who? You? Who put you in charge? You? You assume way to much! The rich do skim off the top. Top executives earn far to high of a margin when compared to average workers, the wealth of the top 1% has continued to increase while those at the bottom have watched their share decline, all the while being asked to contribute more to production. It is true T-Rex. What isn't true is what you claim. Not everyone can start a company and not everyone wants to live in the selfish universe people like you envision.
@ Dave.
Actually, anyone can start a company....all you need is a plan, and then actually go through with that plan.
Perhaps some people have a longer road to get there, but if you really think that people don't have the freedom to start their own business, then you're lost Dave. Anyone that wants to take on that personal responsibility....can...it's just a matter of how hard do they want to work for it.
It's not a selfish universe to believe in personal responsibility. In fact, it's exactly the opposite. When you have personal responsibility, you don't require anyone else to support you. It would be selfish to need other people to support you, if and when you are capable of doing it yourself.
As far as your comment about the "rich" skimming off the top. Don't mix the "rich" with CEO's. They aren't one and the same. Certainly there are some CEO's that take advantage of things, but that's not the mass. A majority of companies do take care of their employees, you just don't hear about them. Secondly, everyone in the United States of America has the right, and potential to make as much income as they can possibly make, and I have a problem with anyone that says "I do think you can make too much". Here's the kicker though Dave. In a free nation like the United States, you have options, that's the beauty of a free market. In a free market, if you don't like the business practices of a company or person, you can go somewhere else, and if enough people feel like you, then one of two things happens, either they go out of business, or they change the way they do business.
If you don't like the way a company is run, don't use their goods or services, it really is that simple.
Dave, please go get your tent and "occupy" something. You have the same opportunity to be successful as anyone else, just because you weren't blessed with the ability doesn't make it any of our problem.
Then you don't get to share the benefits of living in a society if you are not willing to share the burden. You right wingers keep claiming it is the liberals who want everything for free, well you have it backwards. As far as my personal responsibility, I take plenty. I have served in the military, paid my own way through college, and raised two children, without ever taking a dime from the government. I consider myself quite successful because I have enough to keep myself and my family happy and comfortable. But I also realize that there others in this world that can't do the same, and I do not wish to live in a world where they are left to live on the streets to starve and die. The problem with you right wingers is you can never be truly successful, because you can never get enough. You don't want to have enough, you want to have it all, and you don't want anyone else to have any. Somehow, if someone else has something it devalues whatever it is you have. Sad, really. The difference to you and I is that I realize I benefit from living in a society where all are doing well and am willing to share in the burden of maintaining society in such a manner. Face up to your responsibility and realize that without the rest of us you would have nothing of value. Without society your business would mean nothing. All your toys and homes and fast cars would be meaningless with nobody to show them off to. Recognize that you have a responsibility to help pay for the benefits you receive!
p.s.
I am not saying that all should have the same, but that everyone only needs enough!
No one is saying that. I just put a tally mark on this one as another misinformed comment from a lefty.
So far from the truth, it's not even laughable. The more money everyone has, the more successful everyone is. However, we understand a little earning of it is required. There are many ways to earn things, and no one on the right is claiming that everyone who receives government assistance, does so without earning it. Again, another tally mark for a misinformed lefty.
I can appretiate your sentiment here, however, again we go back to personal responsibility, and one building themselves up, as opposed to waiting for others to do it for them.