In the meantime pundits from both side are clamoring to screw the other side and go off the cliff ... we may be reaching unanimity!

All this public negotiating is just serving to harden positions. Really guys, take it to the backroom and light up whatever. This is not 'Storage Wars". YUUUP!

I was surprised at the irony of Boehner standing in front of the words "Focused on American Jobs". (:^D

It reminds of an American Flag pin. Truly being patriotic and talking about being patriotic are very different things. That applies to the jobs issue as well. Are you really concerned about jobs? Your actions speak louder than your rhetoric.

This is another "Please proceed, Governor" moment!

John Blamer knows he is going to lose this fight.

1994 GOP victory in congressional elections - 1995 government shutdown brought by Neuter Grinch - 1996 Clinton re-election

.

2010 GOP victory in congressional elections - 2011 debt limit fiasco brought about by John Boehner - 2012 Obama re-election.

.

A winning pattern for DEMs. Thanks GOP? Your nonsense makes sense - in helping the Democrats. OK, GOPee Potty, Please keep up the good work.

GOPee Potty = GOP + Tea Potty

Seems like the republicans were not only "surprised" by the election and their losses but are suprised that the president is savy and will make them pay for their ignorance.

To quote from My Cousin Vinnie..."You were serious about that.?"

If Repubs took their heads out of their butts long enough to spend some time living in the real world, they wouldn't be caught by surprise so much.

Looks like Obama, now that he's won re-election, is showing that he does in fact know how to negotiate.

I hope it continues.

Come on Thelma... get in the car!

Time to end tax cut for the wretch... I mean..rich.

Piggy, I take issue with this. (surprised by evolution after seeing no difference between a pig brain and GOP brain) A pig at least has some intelligence the G.O.P. left theirs at the door.

@Joe in Albany: Why? They already have those folks hired, along with all the lobbyists. It wouldn't make many new jobs, just a tiny bit more work for those already employed by the fat cats.

Here we go. Same crap, different term. Prepare for another 4 years of getting nothing done thanks to Boner and his GOP crowd.

JH,

In Jan Republicans will vote for a tax cut for 98% of Americans and it will be retroactive to Jan 1^st.

If they don’t they will lose their reign as the Party of low taxes. On more reason for fewer Americans to vote for Republicans.

JH, I think you are way wrong, the ball is in congress's court. Republicans can ward off the tax raise on everybody, by being reasonable. Obama, on the other hand has just given them an avenue to escape the tax raise. The other point is, I am not sure this is a tax "raise" per se, it is just returning the rates to the levels that Bill Clinton had. Remember he was the last president to balance a budget. (yes congress did bring a balanced budget for Clinton to sign, but only after they shut down the government.) They paid for shutting down the government, Clinton was re-elected.

Joe in Albany

I can see 20-30,000 new jobs for CPAs and tax lawyers to help the "rich" legally get around Barry's higher taxes.

All of whom will be taxed at a higher rate than their clients. You may have a plan there Joe.

I was surprised at the irony of Boehner standing in front of the words "Focused on American Jobs". (:^D

If you look at the small tag on the back of that sign it says "Made in China" ...

dangerfield, that is actually a good idea. Hopefully no one actually believes that the left will stop their tax hikes with those making over 250K. That is just a good start for them since they like to villainize successful people/businesses. More taxes equals more spending equals the need for more tax, and on and on and on, at some point they will have to move that 250K inicome down to where you are to keep feeding their (our) hunger. Maybe now is a good time to say enough no mater which side you are on and begin the painful process of cutting back and living within our means.

JH (numbers)

If you can easily afford it, why are you fighting it so hard?

What is wrong abut an equitable tax burden, which most people seem to think is Clinton-era taxes?

The tax rates you are enjoying now were supposed to be temporary, to help create jobs.

But they did not create jobs, so out they go.

New Idea, which is actually an old and proven idea instead of "trickle down" which manifestly does not work, is this:

tax cuts for the 98% (the middle class) do stimulate the economy. And, as you and Warren Buffet agree

you can easily afford it.

Kwitcher whining and pay up.

Madeline

I'm not fighting anything. I have said all along that ALL of the tax cuts should expire. It is the dems who are fighting it. They want to pick the winners and losers. We should all pay.

surprised by the worst recession since the 1930s? after the GOP destroyed regulations that protected US economy since the Great Depression

I believe it was Clinton that repealed Glass-Steagall, which gave the banking industry the right to merge with investment houses and re-start the same practices that led to the stock market crash and the depression.

Why can't these idiots stop grand standing from either side and bring to the table what they want.

President - I want the tax on middle class to stay the same. Every thing else can wait

House - I want a reduction in spending

No kidding. Why can't either side just bring to the table the whole enchilada and then discuss it like normal people. God, I hate our government. Neither side has any answers.

wb52

AAHHHH would you like some cheese with that whine? you guys had your chance remember 10-1 reduction to tax increase, and you guys said NOOOOOOO. Fiscal Cliff is what I am hoping for I am a Progressive Liberal. Lets cut down on the Military , Raise taxes on the wealthy, and defy the Republicans to vote no on tax reduction on 100% of American up to the 1st 250k on Jan 3rd 2013. You guys play checkers and drink moonshine and POTUS Obama plays Chess and Drinks Wine

I saw this coming 2 years ago. President Obama said at the time he was playing chess, not checkers. At that time I know President Obama would win reelection and would be in the drivers seat on the Bush tax cuts. Republicans weren't smart enough to see this coming. When this all washes out, Republicans are going to give in and resend the Bush tax cuts on the top income brackets. If not, they will be blamed for increasing taxes on 98% of the working people in the nation. Bottom line Republicans --- he out smarted you again -- just like Bill Clinton did over and over.

Remember -- when these tax cuts were passed, the Republican controlled Congress put a sunset date on them. That's because they know these tax cuts would cause massive deficits in the out years. Well -- the out years are here.

Dottie

I read the 1st 2 lines of your post only. as soon as I read he had Majority of Both Branches I knew the rest of your post was Garbage. Can You say GOP FILIBUSTER? ohh also only 24 days with super majority and in that time frame he was still hoping to work with the GOP and they kept spitting in his hand

Lame Turkeys

From the article above:

“I was surprised that they were surprised,” Earnest told reporters traveling on Air Force One for the president’s trip to Hatfield, Pa., where he’ll talk about his tax and budget priorities.

This is getting to be hilarious.

The President and his staff are highlighting just how foolish the Congressional Republicans look; all running around like holiday turkeys with no heads.

President Obama is in the driver’s seat, and Boehner and McConnell are scratching and clawing for any political clout and camera time.

Go get ‘em Mr. President. The Lame-turkey congress is quacking to no avail and with the low approval rating they have, you can afford to have a little fun at their expense.

Salud

the administration proposal is a non-starter; new stimulus, new budget,cuts in medicare, social security and military, more debt, and a ever expansion of the welfare rolls; Republicans have said they would go along with some tax elimination deductions for high income, but spending cuts must be also in the deal, Obama said no spending cuts except medicare, social security and military(social security and medicare are self funded, the shortage is both also cover medicaid and welfare programs, which was never intended in the programs).

EX-Foxbot,

The 10 to 1 was a question in a debate, it was never a proposal. The President proposed 4 to 1 and now has switched to 1 to 4.

I love how all the people who hate everything about Bush love the tax cuts he provided to the poor and middle class. All the people who told us his tax cuts did not work want to keep them for 98% of the people because they promote job growth.

American Girl (post 1.1) What is your tax bracket? Mine was 33% last year so that should give you an idea about how much I'm paying. How much did you pay in federal income tax last year? What is your stake in the game to insist (along with many others on this recurring thread) that anyone pay more if it doesn't include you or them, that your deductions are sacred but others should give theirs up?

Everyone needs to pay more in a representative democracy. You could confiscate the income from the top 2% and it doesn't cover the deficit; there would still be an enormous shortfall of 100's of billions of dollars...not that you care as long as you don't have to contribute to reduce it.

Talk is cheap. Pony up some cash and THEN let's hear from you. Until then you and the other "tax the other guy but not me" crowd ought to zip it up. All of you in that camp lack credibility.

Jerry

4-1 now switched to 1-4. Elections have consequences , The GOP hitched there wagon to Romney and that wagon lost, and that is the only thing Bush has done that is good in 8 years in office is the tax relief for the middle class. How SAD 8 years and that is the only thing good ......

Why is the GOP surprised that the purposal isnt the same as the one in 2011...this isnt 2011 idiots! and you lost the election so get off your high horse Boehner and McConnell...you are an epic fail! You are not the ones in the WH and you lost in the election big time! Get over it!. By the way when is the GOP gonna stop leaking stuff? Their aides have got to stop running to the press whining every time they dont get everything they want. No wonder no one wants to tell them anything..they got big mouths. What a bunch of sniveling cry babies! get to work and earn the 150+k you make every year we have to pay you. I am sick of you spinning crap and stalling just so you dont have to work. Especially you McCain and Graham...you arent the heads of anything so who cares what you think about anything..your acouple of camera whores and losers trying to bully a public servant who just did her job. You are showing how small you are by trying to smear this lady who just went out and read the material given her to deliver to the people. Now what is your excuse for being jerks? Your history isnt exactly pure.

So when your 401K is captured by Obama and government, your health care costs increase more than anticipated, your state gov. costs (taxes) are impacted, and you see more expense than revenue, that lightbulb may flick on when you determine that, hey, this isn't the change I want to see.

lol @ phonygirl. How'd that chicken-little shtick work for you during the last election?

Amen Norm!!!!! My family makes almost $160k per year and I still pay taxes. I dont get the child tax credit, EIC nor any other "feeebies" with the EXCEPTION of my mortgage payments, 401K Contributions, Educational expenses and work related expenses that my family does not get reimbursed for. I believe we ALL should be paying taxes even those on SS, Disability and welfare. We should all be paying 10 to 15% of our income and NO More deductions period. No need to file any tax return because the taxes are deducted from your pay and therefore you have paid your share.

I guess keeping it simple is hard for folks to understand.

I do find it sad, the white house is beginning to face the reality, there will be no economic recovery in the foreseeable future. The decision to double down on taxes and balk on entitlement reform, tells a story of failure out of this administration. Wanting an unlimited debt celing, coupled with no new revenues from anything resembling an improving economy. Bottom line? No hope.

What I find amusing is that President Obama and the Democrats are FIXING all the horrible trickle-down economic decisions the previous Administration made (and the Republican majority congress from 1995 to 2007) and some people think the sky is falling.

We as a country HAVE been screwed by REPUBLICAN economic policies, and it's the DEMOCRATS that are restoring AMERICA's Middle Class to prosperity once again.

Amazing how the Conservative dominated media in this country is still shoving their doom-and-gloom talking points BS down the throats of good, decent Americans.

Amazing still how some people believe that BS.

Sorry to interupt your cowardly fetal position chicken little panic attack, but America is coming back stronger than ever.

Not only does this country have Hope again, but there's going to be alot of great changes coming in the next four years thanks to the Democrats.

Salud

You guys dont get it......... The Tax issue was a temporary tax relief, again TEMPORARY and on Jan 3rd 2013 President Obama is going to ask that 100% of Americans receive a permanent tax reduction on the 1st 250k, and he is all for cutting entitlements, He is just waiting for the GOP to Be more specific on which ones? so he and the Voting American Public can see what the GOP are proposing. Check and Mate : ) Have a Good Day and Lets play again, and dont bring checkers to a chess game.

Ex-FoxBot: Other than the fact you aren't in the 2% that will pay more would you please explain why increase that group to 10% or 20%, etc.? Why should it be restricted to the top 2% who are already paying the bulk of income taxes now? Why not broaden the base instead of restricting who pays? Seems like that would raise a lot more money... of course you might have to pay some, too, which I presume is off the table, right?

First of all, it is up to republicans to lay the cuts they want on the table. They aren't doing it. Also, SS has NOTHING to do with the fiscal crisis. Dems have proposed some cuts, but republicans have done nothing but whine. I'm not surprised by the surprise of the surprised. Or maybe I am.

SURPRISED ? SURPRISED ?

At this administration's agenda for the "Fiscal Cliff" ?

• $ 50,000,000,000 for another Stimulus program
• Delete ANY requirement for a Debt Ceiling Limit
• Kick and can down the road (Mrs. Pelosi)
• America can go over the Fiscal Cliff (Senator Peppermint Patty)

Tax + Spend + Redistribute in addition to more Regulations.

NOPE, no surprise here.....just about the same as the past four years.

BTW: Senator (Pocket Veto) Reid....where is the National Budget for the past four years ?

I am shocked.

Shocked that Obama is completely unphased by the sheer magnitude of debt we have. Shocked that is it not 2013 yet and he wants the debt ceiling raised all ready. Shocked that even with this huge debt...that he wants billions more in stimulus. Shocked that given the dire straights that Social Security is in..that he wants workers to continue to short pay it. Shocked that he believe 1% of the population should pay for all the of the government past overspending, all the stimulus, pay for the Obamacare tax of 3.8% tax...plus this additional increase on income over $250k.

Seems like everyone benefits from the government spending, everyone gets a tax cut for years...then only the smallest slice of Americans are responsible for paying for this.

I am shocked at his audacity.

What's it like being a fool Tomas?

Democrats have been in charge since January 2007. It is close to 5 years now of their fine leadership. You libbies seem to think that your policies are so great and look where they have taken us. You think things are looking good for the next 4 years? Pathetic fool.

Jh (numbers)

What's wrong with picking winners and losers? Every political act has winners and losers.

That's what democratic politics is, in essence. Mediating among and between interests to find something that most people can agree to live with.

In this instance, the "losers" you are concerned to protect are people who, through one avenue or another, have more than enough resources to sustain a decent living.

The "winners" are those who, through one avenue or another, are struggling economically to achieve or maintain a decent standard of living.

Fair and Equitable are not the same thing as "the same" and the so-called "playing field" is no longer fair, if it ever was, to the working class, the middle class and the poor.

And, really, you're not going to be made a "loser" just because you have to pay a bit more taxes.

This idea that everybody has to have "skin in the game" is ridiculous, and just another "meme" that sounds fair but is just an empty talking point.

Skin, to me, should be just what is necessary to sustain life (food, shelter, clothing and education). If you have resources beyond that, you have excess skin, and should be happy to contribute a bit more to the enterprise.

So, I think the voting public, in the majority, has given Obama a mandate to make the tax structure more progressive, and that seems "fair" to me.

JH - since you are clearly the poster child for being a fool, you tell us! Thomas - JH understands little and what he does understand is useless!

Norm

I paid 29% last year , why should the wealthy like Romney pay only 14%-16%. I pay my share like most middle class Americans the only 1s Biaching about paying there share are the top2%ers how Unpatriotic of them, We have got to pay down the 2 UNFUNDED Wars that Bush and his Crime Cartel got us into , Hell I will be Ok if my Rate goes up to 35% as long as the wealthy pay there FAIR SHARE, and can we please do away with the deductions of a horse like Romney got $77k Really , If the top 2% have 50% of the wealth shouldnt they pay 50% of taxes?

Madeline: I'll ask you the same question I asked American Girl earlier: Are you personally affected if taxes are made, as you put it, "more progressive" or are you asking someone else to pay your bills? If the former I respect your comment; if the latter, shut up, you have no stake in the game.

Would you feel the same if the 2% bracket that would pay more would "trickle down" to you and you had to pay significantly more or your favorite deductions, etc. were eliminated or is yours a "tax the other guy but not me" mindset?

I just love how all the non- or low contributors are so hot to tax the productive class. Remember, eventually you'll run out of other people's money, and once the proverbial seed corn is eaten you'll starve while the producers will find a way to thrive.

In what world does raising taxes on the rich(who happen to be business owners and managers, for the most part) help create more jobs. Running a business can be expensive, especially with all the taxes that they are going to pay. Now with all the expenses that need to be paid, which most times comes out of the owners pocket, whatever is left is the money the owner earned for his part, which is taxed as income or capital gain or both. Now im not saying all business owners all honest and ethical, but why punish all for the actions of a few. Also why should they have to pay more for working hard and being successful. IMO we should eliminate income tax and maybe increase sales tax. Or tax income at the same rate across the board. Finally people should learn how taxes and government budgets work so they understand where their money is being spent.

Madeline

You are free to believe any BS you want. This is the greatest country in the world and it is a country of equal OPPORTUNITY not equal OUTCOME. I don't mind paying taxes at all, and I pay plenty. I am totally against the policy of raising taxes on a few when it won't do a damn bit of good anyway. The Bush/Obama tax cuts should all expire or all continue. I feel they should all expire. If the middle class doesn't want to help this country then why should anyone else?

SeekingSanity - keep seeking, you really need some. Pathetic fool that you are.

Republicans offer revenue, but fail to say what that revenue is. Republicans want cuts, but fail to say where they want cuts. Obama put his plan out there. Seems like Obama is doing their job for them and they are back to the old no no no to anything Obama Proposes.

Obama wants a "balanced approach". $1.6 trillion in new taxes now. $400 billion in cuts (to be worked out later). New stimulus spending (to kick in now). What's "balanced" about this?! Please become a LEADER, Barry, not an antagonist.

SeekingSanity-

Thomas - JH understands little and what he does understand is useless!Thanks for watching my back.

Comments from Jh and other like-mindless munchkins are laughable.

Doom and gloom is what Faux tells them, and they a more than happy to capitulate.

President Obama is playing these Republicans like a stradivarius and it's fun to finally watch them get all the BS thrown back into their faces they have been spewing for over 10 years now.

Salud

I am personally very disappointed in Obama's proposal. He doubled the amount of taxes revenue he wants, is trying to make it easier to borrow in the future, and the "spending cuts" he's talked about are really just tax increases in another name (ex: means testing is just another word for tax increase).

Hopefully this is just a bargaining tactic, but if he continues to push this plan, I hope the Republicans do not give...I'd rather go over the fiscal cliff than implement this plan. (to be fair, I have always been against the Bush tax cuts and I would like to see them repealed as certain economic metrics are met)

No JH, the pathetic fool is you. And, you and the other radical righties prove daily that there is absolutely no sanity to be found in the Republican party!

ExFox: Thanks for your fair and well stated reply. For what it's worth, my rate was 33% and I don't want to pay more until those who aren't contributing pay more. Your point about the rates go up or down for everyone is spot on, no room for favorites.

The biggest problem is the tax code not the rates. You are correct, it is stupid to give deductions for horses, etc. Eliminate them all unless called for by international treaty. That includes mortgage deduction (affects me), charitable deduction (affects me), health insurance deduction (affects me), etc. Eliminate the not for profit tax status at least for religous organizations (don't get me started on the tax exempt status of the pedophilia cult!!!), etc.

As long as politicians can shake down contributors and accept bribes- er, "contributions" <wink wink> our tax code will be ridiculous. Why can't it be one or argueably two pages long? Everyone needs to pay something.

In what world does raising taxes on the rich(who happen to be business owners and managers, for the most part) help create more jobs.

The real one.

Running a business can be expensive, especially with all the taxes that they are going to pay.

And? If you want a tax deduction, pay your employees more. Hire more people. Bottom line is, if you don't pay your employees a full wage - enough to live on, pay for their healthcare, etc., you are making them dependent on the taxpayer. Your company is a parasite. Shut it down and let someone else who can do the job better take over.

Shocked that Obama is completely unphased by the sheer magnitude of debt we have.

Progressive have been warning for years about this. Have you forgotten what Dick Cheney told us? Regan proved that deficits don't matter. (to Paul O'Neill, then Treasury Secretary.)

Shocked that is it not 2013 yet and he wants the debt ceiling raised all ready.

So you think we shouldn't be paying for what we have already bought? We should just default on our bills? You are shocked that some people are responsible adults and want to pay their debts? Sounds like a typical Right-Winger Regressive to me "let someone pay for it, I got mine."

Shocked that even with this huge debt...that he wants billions more in stimulus.

Are you referring to the stimulus that brought down unemployment over the last three years? You are shocked that he wants to lower employment even further?

What planet do you people live on?

@Madeline

Please explain why it is the job of government to make things "fair" with regard to "skin in the game"? Life isn't fair. We are all given choices and opportunities, some make good ones, some don't. The government cannot, and should not, regulate that. Everyone has different circumstance, work ethic and attitude. Taking from Peter to pay Paul is a ridiculous solution. Why stop at 20%? Why don't we all just pay every penny to government, have politicians split it up and dole it out to everyone equally? There will be no incentive to excel because no matter how hard you work, you live the same life as the guy who doesn't work. BUT, everything will be "fair"! Maybe if people worried more about what they earned and their own fiscal situation and not so much about what others have, they would have more "skin in the game"

Only republicans would be surprised to find out they lost the election and now, like bush said, "There is capital to spend!" The voters told them what we wanted and they just don't get it and want to keep protecting the rich! Totally out of touch with reality!

Bryon,

The problem with that line of thinking is, people buy products mainly based on price (and to a degree, quality). Consumers really don't care about the workers that created the products they buy. So, if a company "does the right thing" for their employees, they will lose business and fail...then all of their employees will be out of a job.

If you want to change the rules to make it profitable to give worker better benefits, then that could work...but just asking businesses to "do the right thing" isn't going to work.

"Political language is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind. " ~ George Orwell

Wow I knew if I looked around I would find the "Obama" supporters slinking around somewhere in the Vines.

Surely "NOT" on the thread about the "Genocide" of South African White Farmers. Instead here they are, still hanging out of the WH / GOP "Fiscal Cliff" nonsense page spewing forth vile rhetoric and holding their hands out for another "Obama Phone" as if it means something real!

Not that Mega Corporate Wall Street GOP Supporters are any better.....They're just looking for more "Corporate Welfare" and maybe to get another "Not War" started for a Military Industrial Corporations & Bankster "Christmas" Present!

Both "Parties" spew nothing but Smoke & Mirrors (and nothing else) for exactly the same Plutocratic "Masters" on Wall Street and you people should be ashamed of your nonsense!

Impeach Obama 2012 for Cover Up of Murder and Secret CIA Prisons in Benghazi-Gate!

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which." ~George Orwell, Animal Farm

Both parties are full of con men only interested in their career and benefits. The American two party system is nothing but a sham.

Norm

I am not 1 to look into a Seniors eyes and say hey you need to be taxed on your $787 social security check, even though you have worked for close to 50 years of Hard Labor to Build our Country, Lets remember the Seniors of today started working in the 50s, we didnt have computer jobs back then and or Bots it was all Manual Labor, and I also dont want to see a service member who has lost his or her limbs for our great country have to pay taxes on $989 check, or a mom raising a couple of kids on 12k a year, Nah the money I give to the govt for taxes, i want to help the seniors, they left us a great country and we are phuking it up, I give gladly to the moms in hopes that her children will make it to the middle-class lady like me and my brothers and sister have done, We were dirt poor and we got help, It can be done

The Tax issue was a temporary tax relief, again TEMPORARY

Exactly right. The reason why the rich got temporary tax relief in 2001 was to create jobs. Now that they have judiciously invested the savings that the tax relief they received, grown the economy and are now making more with those smart investments, they can now afford the higher rates.

And if they haven't been judicious with their investments, frittered away the money, then they have shown they don't have the wisdom to deal with the extra money, anyway.

The country is going deeper into debt in order to provide them the infrastructure they use to maintain their wealth. We can't afford to do this. We have to address the DEBT now. Isn't that what every Republican has been yelling about for the last 4 years?

RE-POST (GREMLINS)

SeekingSanity-

Thomas - JH understands little and what he does understand is useless!

Thanks Sanity, for watching my back.

Comments from Jh and other like-mindless munchkins are laughable.

Doom and gloom is what Faux tells them, and they are more than happy to capitulate.

President Obama is playing these Republicans like a stradivarius and it's fun to finally watch them get all the BS thrown back into their faces they have been spewing for over 10 years now.

Salud

SNK13 wrote:

In what world does raising taxes on the rich...help create more jobs.

And the answer is: nobody claims that taxing the rich create more jobs. The issue is raising more revenue to balance the budget and decrease the deficit.

We borrowed billions of dollars and blew up our budget in order to give the rich a tax cut, on the (republican) theory that tax cuts for the rich would create jobs. They didn't. Your idea was tried, and we all sacrificed a great deal to make sure that it had a chance to succeed. It didn't. This is an attempt to restore balance. Sorry if that goes down hard for you, but it is way past time to give up on that failed economic theory and go back to what built the greatest economy in the world: a strong middle class.

Everyone needs to pay more in a representative democracy. You could confiscate the income from the top 2% and it doesn't cover the deficit; there would still be an enormous shortfall of 100's of billions of dollars...not that you care as long as you don't have to contribute to reduce it.

Talk is cheap. Pony up some cash and THEN let's hear from you. Until then you and the other "tax the other guy but not me" crowd ought to zip it up. All of you in that camp lack credibility.

Norm, wait a minute. I don't hear one Republican fighting for the 2% payroll tax holiday that is set to expire January 1st (even though that amounts to the same). We have contributed. Government workers have had a pay freeze for 2 years (even though that amounts to the same). The top taxpayers haven't given one cent yet.

Now, which group has no credibility?

Bryon,

The debt issue is not a revenue problem as much as it is a spending problem. Obama and the Dems refuse to make the spending cuts necessary and are more willing to use the taxpayers as an ATM.

http://www.usnews.com/debate-club/do-the-rich-pay-their-fair-share-in-taxes/claim-that-rich-dont-pay-enough-based-on-perception-not-fact

Want the Feds to save money, then do this: 1. Slash the Defense Budget for purchasing new planes, warships, tanks, etc. to 1/10 of what it is today. 2. Slash Congresses pay to 1/10 of what it is today. 3. Do away with ALL Congressional perks. 4. Stop all Foreign Aid. 5. Stop all Lobbying, PACs, and Super-PACS. 6. Stop all Pork projects Nation-wide. 7. Put a high Tariff onto all imported merchandize.

Then step back and see the fireworks that will occur. Bet you that the Budget would be balanced within 5 years.

ExFox: Are you OK with phasing in benefit cuts, raising the age for Social Security, means testing benefits, etc. I mean really, why should the waitress who served Warren Buffett his breakfast this morning have to pay for his social security benefits too? Again, means testing SS is likely to affect me so I'm not poking at the "other guy" to pay for it, this should affect me.

Full disclosure: if things are phased in over time I may not be affected or affected as much.

StoptheCannibbals: Not sure how Obama thought draining more money (2% cut) from SS would help SS but if it is in trouble which it is, then returning to the old rates makes sense. Don't like your gov't job? Find a better one. That's how capitalism works. You're not a slave, you are free to find better opportunity. Isn't America great!

Massive spending REQUIRES tax increases, and we have had MASSIVE spending increases since 2001 in the military with the military budget being nearly doubled since then, 2 separate wars that have added more than $2 trillion dollars to the deficit themselves, plus other very expensive aspects of the war on terror. This alone MANDATES a comparative increase in taxes to pay for this so our beloved country will not collapse, and the increase in taxes must especially include those who can most afford it most and have benefited the most of our capitalistic government.

We have never before in the history of this country undertaken such wars without the required tax increases to pay for such endeavors, and war was the first reason federal income taxes were first started in this country.

Obama is at least cutting Medicare spending immediately, which is necessary, as Medicare is the social program CURRENTLY adding the most to the deficit, and he is doing in a right way by cutting payments to providers. This is necessary because the US has by far the most expensive healthcare in the world, and this is bankrupting Medicare and the country through Medicare and Medicaid in a hurry. While the ACA needs some major repairs in the mandate and how it affects business negatively, the ACA is a major step in the right direction in trying to get healthcare costs under control with the review panels mandated by the ACA, and by eliminating the hundreds of billions of dollars annually in unpaid bills by sick uninsured people that is added to healthcare inflation and thus indirectly to the federal deficit through increases costs of Medicare and Medicaid.

Obama and Dems have this more right. Ryan, Boehner, and the repubs have it ALL WRONG.

LOL.... it took nearly 4 years for the White House to realize that they can no longer compromise with their Republican counterparts by taking the middle position. For those fools who still want to argue about it... bahahahaha!!!!!

The debt issue is not a revenue problem as much as it is a spending problem

Stop right there. If you are going to inaccurately attempt to re-frame the discussion, I want a shot at it too!

The debt issue is not a spending problem as much as it is a revenue problem.

There, see?

The problem is BOTH, claiming it is JUST spending is VERY Republican of you, claiming it is just revenue would be very Democratic of someone. The MIDDLE recognizes they BOTH need to be corrected.

WE ARE THE MIDDLE!!

Looks like the republicans should have taken his 2011 proposal.

"funnygirl":

Ah heck, the lib media controls the word, and the word is...

...blah, blah, blah...This is the exact same post you "blessed" us with yesterday. I'm still wondering which AM radio/Fox nazi fed this to your brain cell. Care to enlighten us? (ha-ha)

Again, however, I do have to acknowledge you for finally admitting that the best thing the Republicans can do for our country is is to completely bow out of the system. It's too bad you didn't have the revelation before the election. Now you are simply reduced to being a thoughtless parrot for some nasty, fat, loudmouthed nazi instead of being a happy member of the winning side.

Too bad for you. I would pity you, but you never have been a good person on this board. Reaping what you sow...Boo-hoo...

Surprise!? It's a negotiation, Boner. You don't start out with your low-ball bid dumba$$. Where is the repugnutones' counteroffer? Oh ya, they have none. They won't commit to anything specific cause they might be held accountable for the the result. That's something they avoid at all cost... massive unemployment, unstable economy, compromised national security, a bogus war, the great recession, reduced credit rating... That wasn't us, it the other guy's fault.

I say embrace the abyss! Then watch the rats scurry for cover. You go Obama, stick it to them!

Congress action or inaction never surprises me.

There is nothing balanced about the admins approach. No spending cuts are offered. Instead we have a spending increased proposed. The fiscal cliff is about deficit reduction, not taxes specifically. If he offered up some spending cuts with his $1.6 trillion tax increases, there would be a starting point to negotiate. What Obama did was the equivalent of putting a $1.6 million asking price on a $1 million home. That is the kind of offer that one should walk away from without any further consideration.

FredEvil: Your point would have some credence if the issue could be solved by raising revenue. It can't. The problem is a spending problem.

If your family budget was running a massive deficit and you couldn't borrow any more your options would be: a) make more money (raise taxes); b) cut your spending (cut spending); or c) a combination of the two. If however, you could only make a little more money you'd have to cut a lot of spending and that is where we are. Game, set, match. Nice try though, very liberal thinking.

JH, "President Obama will be known as the President who gave us the biggest tax increase in the history of the US"

This will not be anywhere near the biggest tax increase in the history of the US. It is a tiny 4% increase, that is not an increase at all but a reversal of a tax cut that was always meant to be temporary, back to the rates of the Clinton era when we were all better off than we are now.

And for all of you who are whining about the 4:1 ratio being reversed to 1:4, you are forgetting about the 1.7T in cuts that have already been made. Why is it I never hear anything said about those spending cuts?

Game, set, match. Nice try though, very liberal thinking.

Not even close. If my home is running a massive deficit, I would certainly look at decreasing spending, but I would NOT cut certain spending, mortgage, healthcare, food, transportation, etc. What I WOULD do is take some overtime, get a second job, go back to school to enhance my education to make my present employer willing to PAY ME MORE.

Your 'example' ignored this entirely and pretended we could only 'raise taxes.' There is plenty of opportunity for revenue out there, you've just let yourself be convinced by the Have Mores that there aren't.

The true game was the one in which you got played by the rich, and haven't a clue you are losing.

Fred: If you read my post or English isn't your second language one of the options in the post was to take another job. The problem is that the spending dwarfs our ability to pay the debt and/or close the deficit by raising funds.

And who would fund your "going back to school"? Gov't loans that you wouldn't repay

America is the first country in the world with fat poor people, not to mention the fat poor people with cell phones, flat screens, etc. I don't think their going to a lesser cable and phone plan would hurt too much and frankly, I don't feel like paying for it.

You probably think the idea of paying people 99 weeks not to work is a great idea too.

Liberals. <sigh>

Heartlight,

The point of the negotiations is to get rid of the $1.7T in cuts because nobody wants that, not the people who passed it or the President who signed it.

I do not post very often but enjoy reading many of the post. I really believed that Seeking Sanity was the most juvenile and uninformed of all the posters until today.

Sorry Seeking but ExFoxBot just took away your honors. Hang in there though because I am sure you can come up with something to top him!

Correction Suds,

It's only gonna be another 2 years of the same old before Boner and McConnell are drawing unemployment.

Byron Raum (post 1.72): To your question, "What planet do you people live on?" the answer is one where you pay as much in taxes as we do. At that time feel free to open your yap or pick up the keyboard. Until then be grateful the productive class is willing to pay as much as we do and more, but we expect others like you and the rest of the citizenry to contribute as well.

Government is the great equalizer. Most lower income workers can't complain that the CEO is robbing the till while they are taking pay cuts. They lose their job. So when they can't afford to live off the wages they are making and need to protect social programs, why wouldn't they support a tax hit on the greedy? You want fair taxes then let's start with fair pay. A CEO can only make 6 times the amount paid to the lowest level worker. That includes base pay, bonuses and stock shares etc. Then things will be more equitable and we can look at an across the board tax level for everyone. You can only keep the serfs down so long as you can control them. Now that the Serfs have a President who will work for them, you have to look at redistributing wages fairly, or taking a big hit in the taxes. Remember those top 2% make a lot more than bottom 10% added together. While worker incomes have gone down, the top of the pay scale has pulled away with major increases. Business is redistributing the companies wealth up. Government should redistribute it back down to the people who work hard to make those businesses run.

WOW blaming games are galore. Question for the mass here, who's tax cuts are about to expire?? Democrats?? NOT

Ron-1861300

Bryon,

The problem with that line of thinking is, people buy products mainly based on price (and to a degree, quality). Consumers really don't care about the workers that created the products they buy. So, if a company "does the right thing" for their employees, they will lose business and fail...then all of their employees will be out of a job.

If you want to change the rules to make it profitable to give worker better benefits, then that could work...but just asking businesses to "do the right thing" isn't going to work.

So the right thing for a company to do is to pay the workers slave wages and give big bonuses to the executives of the company? Hmm.

JH,

You are and absolute idiot! Do some research and you fill find that our taxes are now the lowest they have been since the 1960's. Evan if the fiscal cliff is reached it, thanks to republicans stubbornness and stupidity of walking away all the time, we will not be anywhere near the biggest tax increase in history!

Why do you right wing nut jobs continuously use the word "liberal" as if it were a slur?

Do you not realize that it means:

1) Favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.

2) Advocating measures of progressive political reform.

3) Favorable to concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.

4) Favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression.

Do you not realize, not care, or not know, that to be a "Liberal" means that one has the best interests of one's nation in mind, apart from those who wish a "return to the past, those who wish for regression or return to previous conditions, and opposition to innovation, advancement, and progressive policy"?

Do you even care how stupid, selfish, and arrogant it makes you sound? Do you not think for one moment that it is you who are the unpatriotic, arrogant, and hateful?

The thing that amazes me is that anyone can relegate this to a name-calling contest. It's all about bribing the citizens with their own money.

The GOP doesn't want anything but a class of wealthy who can buy their offices for them, and the rest of the people being poor, disenfranchised, unable to effect change, and incapable of standing up against the moneyed wealthy. They want a return to the early 19th Century, when only the wealthy could do everything and anything. They are today's "Robber Barons"

They want a Plutocracy. Why you Right Wing Nut Jobs don't see this, and further, why you refuse to grasp the implications, is frightening. Do you not know your own history? Do you not care about the economic health of your nation? You love to spout off about being "Patriotic!" but you are willfully blind to the fact that it is the Middle Class that is the economic engine of this nation. And that, my fellow Americans, is treasonous.

When you have to break your back from sunup to sundown, you have no time whatsoever to do anything except worry about feeding your family. You can't protest the wealthy elite who are keeping you in poverty, and you certainly can't group together to vote them out of office. You're powerless... That's what the Greed Only Party wants! They want the power to do whatever they feel like, and to hell with the average American. Alexis de Tocqueville said it best: "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." And if an entire class of people have no extra money at all to buy things other than the barest necessities, that impacts the economy far more than one billionaire buying or not buying a new yacht or jet, or mansion.

Over the last 30 years, we have seen an immense shift of wealth from the middle class to a class of only the top few incomes. One fact: take the ratio of the richest in America compared to the average of the middle class and you find that the wealthy have over 25 times more wealth than do the average of the middle class. They are 2,500% wealthier than they were in 1980. The middle class has remained stagnant. This is what the Greed Only Party does. They enact policies that empower and enable only those who are able to afford it. The rest of us are the drones, the workers, the minions who are nothing.

Here's another fact for you: For the third consecutive year, the rich got richer. In the 24th annual edition of The Forbes 400, the collective net worth of the nation's wealthiest climbed $125 billion, to $1.13 trillion. All but 26 people on that roster are billionaires. Surging real estate and oil prices drove up several fortunes and helped pave the way for 33 new names on the list. Think the economy is poor? Look around you. There are new buildings going up, there are new cars being sold, and there are plenty of fortunes being made in the stock market. The only people who are whining about a "poor economy" are the wealthy who don't want to pay a decent wage, provide healthcare benefits, and who refuse to take good care of their workers. They want to profiteer. Why do you want to let them do that to our nation? Why do you support the wealthy class brazenly attempting to fleece the country? Why do you not want your fellow citizens to have any economic security? Why are you so selfish and why are you so hateful?

Our government is no longer of the people, by the people, for the people. It is of the rich, by the rich, for the rich. And their tools are blatant manipulation, misleading propaganda, and influential conservative talk show hosts. We see it in a comment above that "what's wrong with people who know economics saying the truth?" No - they are people who know manipulation and greed. What's wrong is letting them run the economy for their personal gain by intentionally destroying unions, eliminating pensions, offshoring jobs, lowering wages, and do everything they can to suck more for themselves with no regard for the long term harm that they do to America. Here's what's wrong with it: When the vast majority of the population cannot afford basic services, cannot afford basic health care, and cannot afford decent housing, you end up with a third-world country. That's where the Greed Only Party is taking us.

That, my fellow citizens, is what the GOP wants to do to you. Bribe you with your own money, separate you from one another by blaming someone else for your problems that they created, and disempower you by making you irrelevant. You think that they care a bit about who gets a tax break, if that person can’t donate to their campaign coffers? They’re making a political issue out of NOT continuing a tax break to average citizens! Who do you think will suffer the most if they get their way? Certainly not the fat cats who wouldn’t miss that little tax. If you honestly believe that your fellow citizens don’t deserve your help, then you are living in the wrong country.

You think Democrats are Socialists? You don't have a clue what Socialism really is. Democracy and Socialism are not remotely the same thing. Did you get that? They are two different things. The GOP is the party that took your Constitutional rights away with the Patriot Act, and forced everyone to go along in lockstep under the false label of patriotism. They made you WANT to give up your rights when they told you it was Un-American to not want the Government have that much power. How can you RepubliCONS claim to love America, when you clearly hate the average American?

The Teabaggers and RepubliCONS want you to blindly believe that "Socialism" equates to what the former Soviet Union once was. They don't want you to question them. Anyone with any knowledge at all of history and political science knows that the former USSR wasn't a Socialist country. They were a centrally-controlled dictatorship. They weren't Socialists. And everyone knew it. Except the Greed Only Party. Those RepubliCONS don't know what Socialism is, except that it sounds like the old USSR, so they just use that label to scare people. And people of lesser intelligence, those who cannot think for themselves, or those who have not enough life experience are the first ones to fall for it.

Just so you know what we’re talking about, here is the definition of Socialism, along with some examples that should be simple enough that the right-wing nutjob zealots can understand them.

Socialism: [so-shull-izm], 1. An economic theory or system in which the means of production, distribution, and exchange are owned by the community collectively. It is characterized by production for use rather than profit, and by equality of individual wealth rather than an unequal distribution of wealth with a small percentage of individuals controlling almost all of the money supply. 2. Any of various social or political theories or movements in which the common well-being is to be achieved through the establishment of an economic system where the financial security and benefit of fellow citizens is placed ahead of the accumulation of individual wealth.

Here are some examples. I'll use small words so you can get it.

Socialist: The government owning and operating all petroleum industry, distribution, and retail.

Not Socialist: The government mandating that health care be provided and available to all citizens, regardless of income, employment, or pre-existing conditions.

Socialist: The government owning and operating all communications systems, including equipment retail, and service provision.

Not Socialist: The government mandating that all college students have low-interest, available, and affordable loans to attend institutions of higher-education.

In other words, when the government requires fairness, it is not, repeat NOT Socialism. When the government owns and operates completely, without competition, it is Socialism. Why can’t you republiCONs get that? Why don’t you stop twisting the meanings of words to suit your agenda of making the wealthy even more wealthy at the expense of the average American? How can you claim to love America, when you clearly hate the average American?

Tax breaks for the rich? The claim that those tax breaks create jobs is a patent lie, and has been repeatedly shown to be false since Reagan was in office. Why don’t you give tax breaks to the people who really can boost the economy? Give them to the middle class. The rich don’t do anything with those tax breaks except buy another yacht or 12 bedroom mansion, or private jet. It’s the middle class that is the economic engine of this nation. The problem for you Right Wing Nut Jobs is, your war on the middle class is having the effect on shrinking your voting base. Oooops! Enjoying the White House, Governor Romney?

Wait, there’s a better one. Pick a country that can’t do you any real harm, and invade them on the premise of a lie. Tell the people that nation has weapons of mass destruction, and are planning to use them, and you have to go in there to save America! Tell them that they are anti-American, unpatriotic, and treasonous if they don't support you. Doesn’t matter that there aren’t any WMD, doesn’t matter that the American People are so stupid that they don’t have the temerity to stand up and demand the truth, no, it only matters that you can cow those people by telling them that opposing you is treasonous, un-patriotic, and anti-American. Sound familiar? How can you claim to love America, when you clearly hate the average American?

I see something else equally disturbing… Remember Natalie Mains? Remember what happened to her when she merely stated her opinion that she was “embarrassed” to be from the same state as the President? My God, she was vilified in the press and court of public opinion. Everyone was told how un-American it was to criticize the President that way, how disrespectful it was, how she should be silenced, and drummed out of town! Members of CONGRESS stood up on the floor of the House demanding that her citizenship be revoked for her “treasonous slander of the President during wartime!” Gosh! For exercising her right to speak freely!

I see a huge amount of vulgar, slanderous, hateful, and vicious criticisms of the sitting President. Made by the same people who were horrified and aghast over the kinds of tame comments made by Ms. Mains. You want it both ways, when it suits you. I don't see the first right-winger here, or anywhere else, vilifying anyone for slandering or name-calling the President of the United States. Instead, you keep repeating the totally discredited statement that he is not a natural-born citizen, the falsely slanderous claim that he's a muslim, and therefore is not the President. You call him a POS. You refer to him as "Barry". You make provably false statements intended to demonstrate your disrespectful disdain.

To quote one of the biggest hypocrites in American politics, "You lie!" You may have the right to speak your mind, but you also have the obligation to your fellow citizens to speak the truth. And you don't. You think we're all stupid, and you tell us so constantly. How can you claim to love America, when you clearly hate the average American?

Well, people… You can’t have it both ways. You cannot demand that Freedom of Speech only applies to you, and your opinions. Freedom of Speech is when you can stand up and defend at the top of your voice, someone else standing up and screaming at the top of his or her voice, that which you would spend a lifetime opposing. You want Freedom of Speech? Then you better start defending MY right to state my opinions and beliefs, without interference, denigration, demeaning labels, or your vile disdain. Defend that. Instead of sniping and snarling at those of us who believe in a more fair, open, and equal government, why don't you find a way to fight against those who would disenfranchise you... Geez, it's not that difficult. Vote the GOP (Greedy Obstructionist Party) out of office…

Except, you don’t have that long a memory…

How can you claim to love America, when you clearly hate the average American?

I'm waiting to see if any real men and women in the GOP stand up for America and do the honorable thing. Stop blaming the President and start working on some real compromise.

The Republicans and Tea Party have thwarted the President every step of the way for the last four years. Obviously, they think they can still do it, and leave our nation stuck in this crisis.

This isn't rocket science. It's political science. Every single GOP member knows these problems can be worked out, they just don't want to appear like they are having to make concessions on any of their own selfish agendas.

TO EVERY AMERICAN CITIZEN: FIND OUT WHO YOUR STATE REPRESENTATIVES ARE AND SEND THEM AN EMAIL LETTING THEM KNOW YOU ARE TAKING NOTE OF WHAT THEY DO TO HELP OUR COUNTRY OUT OF THIS MESS.

Dems: "So here's the 'proposal'...Give us twice as much as we agreed was acceptable for tax increases 18 months ago now and maybe -- just maybe -- we can have a conversation about the necessary spending cuts and entitlement reforms at some future undetermined date, you know...if we ever feel like doing something we haven't ever wanted to do before. How about that? That sounds fair, right?" *wink-wink-nudge-nudge-chortle-chlortle*

That's not a proposal. That's a mockery that shows just how detached the Democrats are from being even remotely serious about the mess we're in that will end up devastating us in the not too distant future if it is not addressed in a serious manner.

Time for the GOP to own up to the fact that they lost the election, they are a political dinosaur, and that the majority of American citizens don't buy into their selfish political games anymore.

Make some real counter-offers and stop the silly posturing.

Hmmm...it's almost like silverton has yet to notice that the electorate saw fit to ensure Republicans retained control of the House. We're still hoping he eventually emerges from his glitter rainbow, marshmallow cloud and unicorn filled world he lives in.

BTW silverton the GOP would need to see an actual offer before counter-offering. "Give us what we want now and then maybe later we even discuss what you want if we ever feel like it" is not an offer. It's sophomoric grand standing and the politics as usual that the electorate is sick of.

There is no such thing as the fiscal cliff. John Boehner wants us to be afraid---very afraid. What is the worse that can happen if the Bush tax cuts expire? All of our taxes go up and Boehner and the GOP are holding the bag for it.

What won in this last election is those who want to ride on the backs of others.

Very funny statement since the red states that voted for Romney are the ones that take the most in welfare.

It seems that they cannot see beyond their own selfish whims at they people who have promised them this free ride

There is no such thing as a free ride. Yes, people that are disabled do get disability, but how much? I know people that get only 600/month to live on. They get food stamps, but not enough to cover food for a month. They need housing assistance to have a roof over their heads.

If they could they would see clearly that it includes their own destruction as well as ours!

What an ignorant statement. Safety nets need to be in place. They have been around for a long time and have not caused destruction and they are not about to. These programs make up a very small part of the US Budget. What is going to be our destruction is the discretionary military budget. This money goes to corporation for things we do not need to defend ourselves. War make the wealthy money and war is what will destroy us.

"There is no such thing as the fiscal cliff. John Boehner wants us to be afraid---very afraid." - huskergal

Funny...

Obama: "Fiscal cliff" would be "a Scrooge Christmas"

Obama Says Fiscal Cliff Could Cause Recession

Republican are the pitiful evil party that the Grinch represents! Who cares about all the Who when you have be greedy and have it all!

You may have heard recently that Hostess Bakery plants have closed for good.
But you may not have heard how it was split up. The company was sold off by
divisions and the proceeds going to the federal loan sharks. The State Department
hired all the Twinkies, the Secret Service hired all the HoHos, the generals are
sleeping with the Cupcakes and the voters sent all the Ding Dongs to Congress
and the Fruit Pies were returned to the White House.

Bonehead is having a complete break down choking on his Tea - at the 19th hole, is reality setting in or is he going to do his usual GOP wiggle for his greedy Loonies ???????????????????

I am not surprised that the president is surprised. He hasn't known what he has been doing since he took office.

Remember he stated that he wanted to create an office of economics?

That blatantly tells you that he needs help!

Yes taxes have to go up, but why whip and punish the engines that move the train? Remove the illegals, make the people who are chomping on the public welfare take the jobs and reduce the amount of money that is fed into the welfare system. Remove the rules that burden the job sector. Free the economy. Obama is so lost and in over his head that he drowned four years ago. He couldn't get along with his own party and now is begging the republicans to help him.

Go over the cliff, whatever that is and let him sink with his lead life preserver.

He refused to stop the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. He knows the U.S. does not need 11 aircraft carriers. He knows that 42% of the budget goes for some sort of welfare programs.

Why doesn't he lead the way by taking a 50% pay cut? Shame all the politicians by stepping up and demonstrating how much he is willing to share the pain? Then demand from all the idiots who got us into this mess, including all senators and representatives that they too take a 50% pay cut and that includes his own salary. He can afford to take a 50% pay cut as he used his office to publicize his books and made millions. BTW the president makes $500,000. I am sure that he can get along on $250,000. That would put him under his stated cap of increasing taxes on people earning over $250,000. He can always get his wife to go back to work to make up the difference.

I recently saw an article on "THE WEALTH OF SENATORS AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES". On average a senator has a wealth of over $10,000,000 and a member of the house of representatives wealth of $5,000,000. Hell they can take a pay cut, reduce their "GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO FED AT THE TROUGH OF TAXES BY U.S. citizens by 50% reduce their staffs and expenses by 50% and the same nonwork will be the same. Start from the head down.

Remember these idiots who got us into this mess are our "PUBLIC SERVANTS" and they are making a hell of a lot more than the minimum wage.

Patriotic American U.S.A. Go to the site that shows the worth of all the senators and members of the house of representatives. The senators with the greatest wealth are all democrats.

I did some research. The longer a person is a member of the senate or the house of representatives, the faster his wealth increases. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHY? Can you imagine why these democratic knotheads why to increase the taxes on the wealthy to spend it on the non productive citizens and illegals and special interest groups? TO BUY THEIR VOTES!

You probably think the idea of paying people 99 weeks not to work is a great idea too.

Sadly, you probably think this deliberate distortion of the facts is a valid argument.

Conservatives... (sigh)

1.First off Republicans Lost the elections re soundly. The Fiscal Cliff would raise tax rates back to the Clinton rates across the board thus raising it on those 2 percent Republican would crash our economy to protect.

2. Going over the fiscal Cliff might be the only way to raise tax Revenues on the rich and protect Entitlements. By going over the cliff it will go up on everyone. The president can easily turn to the address the nation and tell the United States exactly how republicans would not raise these rates under any circumstance and hoe they were needed since the rates we had the last 12 years have not been a overwhelming success to job growth now has it but the Bush tax cuts have created a freaking huge deficit now hasn't it.

3. After Going over the Cliff the cutting of any tax rates has to be approved now doesn't it? That means it needs to clear the Senate and the House and be signed by the President. Given Democrats win in this election there is Political capital gained as to the people have spoken which way they want us to go and that means the Democrats ways. If we go over the cliff because Republicans were just to damn stubborn to grow a pair and suck it up raise tax rates on the Rich and conform to what people want and protect the entitlement's not cut them even if we have to raise the rate slightly paid into them to protect them for another 75 years that is what we should do. Not raise age limits or cut any benefits but restructure the insurance industry and get a grip on there spiraling rate increases by making them place a freeze on rates as workers take freezes on pay. Either way its a win win besides where would they go elsewhere making the money they do in this country no where would pay them anywhere close ever.

4. Over the cliff if were are forced to go then turn around in 2014 and fire the GOP pigs who could not see there hands despite the fat pig noses. Its a win win then we can cut our deficit and afford our programs and take care of our responsibility to our workers who already paid into programs as well as maintain the promise to us still paying into it with the promise it will be there when we retire as well.

Lets vote all republicans out in 2014 if they still don't get the picture. Revenues to pay our bills are needed just as bad as cuts to spending but in a responsible way not in a way not just to be cutting whatever is most costly even if needed to survive. No cutting off nose despite faces.

"It isn't a revenue problem it's a sepnding problem."

Agreed. So why do republicans feel the need to continuously increase spending? The only major spending program began under a Democratic president in recent history was Obamacare which is fully funded.

Bush began a new 200 billion a year drug plan, began 2 new wars all while cutting revenue 400 billion a year which means it all went on the Americard. Following that same line of reasoning Romney proposed a 200 billion a year increase in military spending and beginning a new space program that would require 100's of billion more all while cutting revenue another 500 billion a year. And you people wonder why you lost the election. Because you're friggin nuts.

Nothing is fully funded when we are in a deficit and the Republicans were not in charge of anything when the economy collapsed. the Democrats were the majority for a whole year before the economy went belly up and the President gave money to bail out a bunch of idiots who have yet to pay anything back. Some have already gone bankrupt. I believe the President has a plan and given the chance, it could work to some degree. The Republicans do not want to admit that the wars have destroyed our economy. The military and our pay has nothing to do with the current problem, it is the contractors being paid to do our job and being paid an enormous amount to not get it done. It is time that everyone get off the blame game wagon and start working together to fix the problem. Who gives a damn who started all of it? If we can't get past that stupid, idiotic argument, there will never be any change to any of this. Blaming someone for your problems does not fix the problem, it only shows that obviously you have no solution so you try and make yourself feel better balming someone else. The American people need to get off their collectives backsides and MAKE our government do their job. You did not do it on election day. There are still too many old men and women in the seats that have been holding us back with their priorities. How many of you will be working your butts off this holiday season to make ends meet?? The government will be at home for the duraion enjoying themselves at our expense. WAKE THE @$#% UP!!!

Oh, and going back to the taxes paid during President Clintons term, it balanced the budget!!

so what exactly are obamas plans for more jobs? Is it hiring 17k new irs agents that get paid by our taxes? I have heard nothing about his plans that will help private sector job growth. The repubs don't have anything either so whats the answer. It was clinton that opened up trade with china and the off-shoring of jobs that should be here. It's the repubs that think we need to control the m.e. for oil which this country needs for the way we live. the idea that the tax the wealthy more will stop there is rediculous it will roll down hill to middle income. The new health care has so many hidden agendas no one knows what they are untill its passed and to late to fix per peelosi. I think we are in for a big change to socialism if not communism since the gov needs to control all and we citizens only know enough to argue between ourselves that way we don't focus on what is really happening. So what say you

dogs80

I have to agree with you about seeking sanity I see he is still searching but can't read a map lol

agreed...

...and ... A lunar colony? what kind of lunatic would propose that? Only a Newtered Grinch!!!!!!

hey hey now... leave the moon out of this.

Totally agree...NO MORE CAVING! I'd rather go over the cliff then give one more inch to these GOP hypocrites!

Will we get to see Sir John (Of Orange) Boehner cry again?

Stick to your guns Mr. President, don't balk or waiver. Do not compromise.!! Its what any self respecting dictator would do. Your trickle up poverty will work. Tax the producers and fund the needy, all 47% of them. You can also fund nuclear arms projects for Pakistan. I think your collage choom mates were from Pakistan.. Relax it's time to take the entourage on the Hawaiian (money is no object) Christmas vacation..

Tax the producers and fund the needy, all 47% of them

If cutting taxes on the wealthy creates jobs, where are all the jobs they produced in the last 12 years. All they did was send jobs overseas and added to the unemployment rolls, As for the 47% Romney was talking about, you are probably in that group. Only 4.1% of the population is on welfare. Here's a link so you can educate yourself

http://www.statisticbrain.com/welfare-statistics/

I've seen many Republicans on these posts say Republican leaders should allow Obama to do exactly as he wants so he gets any blame for failure. The problem is he'd also get the credit for any success. Republicans pledged to block every intuitive proposed by Obama to make him a one term president. The problem is other than Republicans the rest of the nation realises you can't stop Obama from doing everything he campaigned on them blame him when they don't work.

They can claim it wasn't an overwhelming victory but all polls show the majority of Americans support Obamas plan to keep the cuts for the middle class and raise taxes on the rich. When Republican voters agree the rich should pay more at a 2 to 1 rate and they still refuse to consider it you know they've become more beholden to their rich supporters than the people who elected them. Time to get rid of them.

It is not the president who should be conforming to Republicans whim they got the asses kicked and the country spoke this election they want us to raise rates of rich pigs the GOP elephants like koch brothers and adelson . Its not the job of the president to bring this to them he told the country what we we going to do while runing there was a vote and Democrats won. It is republicans fault if we go over a cliff either ways its a win win we get clinton rates back and can afford our bills without killing seniors or cutting benefits we can reform to protect those possibly raising the rate we pay into them making them solvent for 75 years without raising age limits or cutting benefits.

If Republicans don't compromise vote them all out on there ass. That is what they deserve they don't run this show Its a government office if you hate Goverment don't run for it and GTFO now lazy bastards GOP. We are not protecting your rich friends anymore the last 12 years are over. We need the funding you been not paying into the goverment collected and the Tax loopholes for the rich blameless idiots closed.

the amnesty under reaguns term was if the dems would ok the closing of the border and they did nothing, the jobs going off-shore was a result of the china trade agreement which clinton who doesn't even know what sex is signed, the passing of the health care bill was by people who did not know what was in it or maybe they did but knew if facts came out it would not pass. the lets go blow up other countries and then pay to rebuild is a repub thing, the lets pay for other countries education is who knows plan sounds like they are both a bunch of denyers

FOX propaganda has no value out side the right-wing media bubble.

Correct--he said nothing about either--unlimited debt ceiling by presidential decree? Really? sounds like a dictatorship to me...later date to cut entitlements, if anyone out there believes that, I have a bridge I would like to sell you--in the middle of the desert...

This is called "A starting point". Everyone asks high and settles for less. The GOP has to start negotiating instead of pitching a fit.

wanting an unlimited debt ceiling

I say go big Mr. President. The GOPTP already demonstrated they are willing to destroy the economy of the country by downgrading our credit rating. Thankfully, that attempt of sabotage failed but since they will surely try it again, I say take that action out of their hands.

As far as more stimulus spending, go for it. Credit to the government is cheap right now, so let's toss money at our infrastructure and create some jobs along the way.

Harbinger: Fox has enormous comedy value-I bout fell off the couch when I saw Karl Rove's reaction to the news that the POTUS had won the election-and John Stewart and Stephen Colbert's recaps are pure gold.............

i agree that fox 'news' is funny... but only after the election... it was getting pretty scary there for a while...

They scare me all the time. And I don't like going in some place of business where it's blasting on the television. Not funny at all.

I do try to see the humor in it, and admittedly some of it is so over the top that it is funny. But one has to take it with a big ole grain of salt!

RedDevPs,

As far as more stimulus spending, go for it. Credit to the government is cheap right now, so let's toss money at our infrastructure and create some jobs along the way.

What about QE3 that's 40 billion a month?

The additional stimulus monies have been proposed for well over 2 years now. They are part of the American Jobs Act that has been studiously ignored by the GOTea. Entitlement spending would come in the way of reducing waste, not services. Surely anyone who has had any dealings with medicare can understand that this can and should be done.

You GOPers never stop beating your bogus drums on so-called fiscal responsibility! History CLEARLY shows us that Republican Administrations have outspent Democratic Administrations 2 to 1 !!!! So please stop feeding us your FAKE "fiscal outrage" ! We are STILL trying to payoff the TWO UNFUNDED wars that "W" shafted us with!!

Boehner and mcturtle have already whined that Obama needs to be the one to to do the job of the house and come up with a budget. Obama did just as they wanted, and now the whiny babies want to complain? They don't want Obama to lead, they want him to propose things so that the r/tp/con axis of evil can lay blame on anyone except themselves.

Either do your jobs congress, or GTFO so that someone else that WILL make the hard decisions. You can't have it both ways. Time to stop paying congress and to cut off all of their benefits. Maybe then they will understand that they are employees of the citizens, not the exalted dictators like they seem to think and act like they are.

They need to be locked in a room, with zero access to media coverage, until they can arrive at an adult compromise that is in the best interest of the country, not their party. That may be the only way to force them to actually do their jobs. Until then, shut up, grow up, or GTFO so that adults can do the job of running the country.

More stimulus? Really? With the debt we already have? Really? Really?

peace so you saying you get your news from daily and colbert?

hesfailed - and Democrats will take the House in 2014 - plus they gained seats in the Senate this year - which the GOP was SURE they were going to take control of - just like they were going to win the Presidency. And, Democrats gained in the House. The little GOP house of cards is caving in and will continue to do so unless Republicans free themselves from Norquist and gain some integrity!

How is that you spell integrity??? Oh that's right...B e n g h a z i C o v e r - u p.....integrity....

B e n g h a z i C o v e r - u p.....integrity....

Only in the minds of dum/ a$$ republican$

integrity....Only in the minds of dum/ a$$ republican$

Job1 - No need to admit it, but I agree republicans have more integrity and honor than Democrats in this country...but everyone knows that.

The ideal example of Democrat Integrity is the Benghazi scandal as well as "we have to pass Obamacare so we can see what's in it"....with no regard to what it costs or does to our children's future livelihoods.

I wondered how long it was going to take for someone to bring up Benghazi!!!!

Ohh that stung....You're probably right though job..it could also be spelled F a s t a n d F u r i o u s.....or E x e c u t i v e p r i v i l e g e....or maybe it's spelled F o u r d e a d A m e r i c a n s.....

Behold the excrement you choose to worship!!

Behold his noble deeds!!

Republicans DO NOT have more integrity and honor than Democrats in this country. The Whole WORLD knows that as a fact.

Ask the people of the world what they think of W. Bush and the feelings are he should be in jail.

Republicans aren't really surprised about the President's budget. Fox News just told them to act surprised, shocked and they will do anything Fox says. It worked out so well in the elections, you know.

Benghazi.

(Ding)

Just like Pavlov's dog.

Now go be a good Tea Blogger and reward yourself with a Hot Pocket.

Salud

Benghazi - ding? So Tomas, where was Obama during this whole Benghazi thingy? Was he in the "Sit Room" with everyone else as the events transpired? Was he traveling while watching it in AF1?

Who made the call to leave the events on the ground and give up the four?

The Cliff is another distraction away from this question. Just leave it alone and hope it goes away.

I honestly hope the GOP House and Senate members vote the Obama way on the cliff - present- then let the liberal pass the legislation Obama wants. Let him own it and continue on with his legacy of being the worst president of all time.

Never mind that Bush lost more than 10 times as many Americans with embassy attacks. Never mind that Bush got more than 5000 Americans killed and 10,000+ crippled from war wounds with his proven lies about WMDs.

Never mind any of that ignorant little righties.

1unfunnyfool - what TF legacy are you ranting about? The one that's only believed in Fox-poisoned minds? Remember, Foxbots have one worldview, and no one else on the entire planet shares it. Go stick your head back in the sand and have a listen, I hear Rush's show is broadcasting down there.

Dangerous,

Never mind that a whole cadre of Democrats swore up and down that Iraq had WMD well before Bush was in office, never mind that Obama has also lied about Libya, right? So are you equating Obama to Bush...not very good logic from the supposed "enlightened" left.

Four dead Americans in Benghazi. True. Now explain to us how we ended up with 5,000 dead Americans in Iraq......for NOTHING! MMMMMMMMM?

Recovering Democrat, corporate profits reach all time high.

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/11/30/15570307-corporate-profits-reach-all-time-high?lite

Recpvering - clearly you haven't recovered. Business has done better under President Obama than under Bush. President Obama has no desire to "kill off" small business - that's a totally ignorant claim and shows you to be just another low information voter - typical Repubican liar!

Many of those regulations are written by big businesses that can afford them. It is big business that tries to eat little innovative business. Microsoft is a prime example of this as is WalMart.

The republicans idea of a small business is WalMart. Remember, President Obama won re-election, and he will not be running for office again. So, he will be getting his way and the republican in Congress need to settle down and shut their pie holes.

Also, they will need to get their check books out and be ready to pay higher taxes.

Good morning, Seeking

"Recovering" is just parroting the Conservative narrative. More gloom, doom and despair...They've already defined their story line and they will continue to repeat the same old tired rhetoric regardless of evidence to the contrary. I am a "recovering Republican". I quit the party when they turned hard right and lost all sense of truth and decency. (Thank you Newt Gingrich!) What is left of the Conservative party isn't worth saving.

So to "Recovering"....please continue with the bombast, which is far more effective than anything the Democratic Party has done to further marginalize your party's agenda and viewpoint. You and your ilk are successfully destroying what was once an honorable party.

Thanks to GOD for people like Karl Rove, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and Grover Norquist. They will destroy the Republican party from within. Sadly, they are taking allot of REALLY good people down with them. It's a shame that more reasonable voices have not prevailed.

Remember, President Obama won re-election, and he will not be running for office again

I wouldn't put it past President Cliff to try and change that law so he can run again. As Democrats proudly claim time and again, he is a President of many firsts and will be getting his way this time.

Funny you should say that, TH. I wondered the same thing about "W" and Chenney trying some BS tactic with the election back in 2004. It isn't going to happen and you know it very well.

Why don't we put our efforts and energy into what IS....instead of coming up with ridiculous theories about what "might be?".

Funny how all this is still blamed on Bush, but his tax cuts will live on and are supported by Obama...

I admit Bush was a moron to start up deficit spending again, but Obama has doubled down on spending and made Bush's spending look lke chump change.

To clarify, Bush was as dumb as a bag of rocks in a lot of areas, but compared to Al Gore and John Kerry, he was the better pick of Dumb and Dumber candidates.

Actually, the bulk of the spending was done under Bush, and he skipped out on the bar tab and left that to President Obama.

Job,

While Bush did run up spending, Obama has taken it to new heights! It's amazing what you choose to overlook with Barry...

You know, I still wonder, TH... Who was really running the show during George W Bush's presidency. I actually liked and respected his daddy, George HW Bush.

During W's terms, it seemed to me that VP Dick Cheney had pretty well emasculated the office of President

Event further back, during the Regan years...I honestly believe Nancy was calling the shots behind the sceenes, propping up Ronnie as his mental accumen was failing. She may well have been the true power behind the man.

I know this is off topic....sorry.

@JK1963

I don't know why I waste my time, Obama haters don't really deal in facts.

http://articles.marketwatch.com/2012-05-22/commentary/31802270_1_spending-federal-budget-drunken-sailor

TO: JK1963 who wrote:

"Job, While Bush did run up spending, Obama has taken it to new heights! It's amazing what you choose to overlook with [President Obama]."

Yeah we know, Republicans would have had soup lines circling the block for the world to see like they used to have in the old Soviet Union, all those people waiting in line in the freezing snow to get a bowl of soup.

Bush totally destroyed the economy, and if President Obama didn't do what had to be done, you would have been able to see American soup lines from the space station.

Republicans just don't have any concept of what condition Bush left this country in and why it was so urgent to get a few dollars into the pockets of the American People.

Kelldog-308356

@Madeline

Please explain why it is the job of government to make things "fair" with regard to "skin in the game"? Life isn't fair. We are all given choices and opportunities, some make good ones, some don't. The government cannot, and should not, regulate that. Everyone has different circumstance, work ethic and attitude. Taking from Peter to pay Paul is a ridiculous solution. Why stop at 20%? Why don't we all just pay every penny to government, have politicians split it up and dole it out to everyone equally? There will be no incentive to excel because no matter how hard you work, you live the same life as the guy who doesn't work. BUT, everything will be "fair"! Maybe if people worried more about what they earned and their own fiscal situation and not so much about what others have, they would have more "skin in the game"

• 2

• !

#1.73 - Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:41 PM EST

This attitude does not seem to be at work in the Northern European countries with more strongly progressive tax structures. People still work and make a lot of money, some of them, even though it is taxed at much higher rates than a simple reversion to the rates of the Clinton era. (Rates that are still lower than the Eisenhower era, when taxes were high and very progressive, our economy flourished, and we paid down war debt.)

You are channeling the Calvinist idea that American exceptionalism is both the result of and proof of a moral status that is evinced by worldly wealth -- one is the elect (Godly) if one is rich, and God has already decided who is Godly.

Plenty of people who do not make $250K/yr work hard and are highly moral. You don't get any props for "I worked for it, it's mine and you sat on your ass." Relatively few people are lazy takers, and most of them, statistically speaking, live in Red states.

This is really an argument about the role of government. I say it is to mediate between and among conflicting interests in society. The right insists that government should be starved to death, so the Godly Calvinists will not, either through regulation or through taxation, be impeded in amassing wealth however they please.

Well, we saw what the majority of Americans think of your ideas. You have more. You should pay more. A modest increase in income tax over $250K back to Clinton-era levels is Not Going To Kill You. And as a Liberal, I am all for eliminating waste and closing loopholes, too.

So, kick and scream your way to the cliff. After we all go over, the rich will pay a bit more, there will be legislation to relieve the middle class of some of it's tax burden, some money will be restored to the industrial/military complex, etc. And we will begin to reform the tax code and some insurance programs to be sustainable.

And if Mitt Romney was right about anything, thanks to productive and exceptional Americans on the Right, the GDP will grow and swallow up some of the debt.

.

American,

Just watch in four years, the American people will be kicking themselves that they voted for Obama for a second term...

yea sure JK, you said the same thing in 2008. Have anything NEW to add?

Cynthia, it won't surprise me one bit if they, being the Republicans, refuse to negotiate.

The recent election was brutal for them. Just brutal.

They were so keen on being the "Ruling Party" like yesteryear, that they forgot to actually do anything except look down on all of us. Limbaugh, Norquist, Scarborough, etc. thought they could just sit back, snap their fingers and President Obama, the democratic party as a whole, and we the people would jump.

Not happening.

Now they're cornered.

Cynthia---the Republicans don't seem to be familiar with the concept of negotiating in good faith---where each side gives up something in order to get what it wants. Their idea of negotiating is holding their breath (and the country hostage) til the Democrats give in. Well, not this time. I would be happy to pay higher taxes and hope they don't change entitlements---people have earned them and are counting on them. Over the fiscal cliff is fine with me.

hesfailed... i don't get it... you're not interested in facts? is that it? are you not willing to pay attention to what is actually happening around you... and if yes, may i ask why?

if the Repubs don't make a deal then the tax cuts will expire and the dems will get their way anyway... you can B and moan all you want but it's not going to change reality. do me a favor and go cry to hannity about it... at least he believes you..

they are just disrespectfully snickering out loud

The laughter was at Tim Geithner...not at President Cliff. It is funny when Geitner...the proven tax evader...is proposing a lame fiscal plan for fiscal responsibility that does nothing to impactfully lower fiscal spending.

Hello yay politics.... staunch conservatives like "hesfailed" have a narrative and no facts or evidence to the contrary are accepted or allowed in. They can only keep repeating the same old BS until it is accepted as truth.

I sometimes wonder how deep the flooding has to be, before climate change deniers will actually admin there might be something to it? And how far along the economic recovery has to get before they finally admin we are well into economic recovery.

They can't allow in any evidence or facts that do not align with their narrative.

Sad, really....

JT...just like Liberals claim that a majority of Amercia now supports Obama...when only 51% that voted of 120 million proved they do. Same thing with Global Warmning. Until a majority of scientest can attest that it really exists...moreso than just natural cycles in weather...then it is not a proven fact.

Cite your source, please. The margin of support was greater than you suggest.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_people_voted_for_Obama

President Obama received almost 53% of the popular vote and 365 electoral votes. His total of 69,456,897 votes was the most ever received by a U.S. presidential candidate.

Does that mean that every one of these voters "agrees" with our President? Not necessarily. But most folks agree....we cannot fight two wars, enact Medicare Part D, and cut taxes without someone actually PAYING for them.

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/08/24/why-taxing-the-rich-is-good-for-america/

And a majority of voters on both sides agree, taxes MUST be raised.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20110458-503544/polls-show-most-americans-support-raising-taxes-on-wealthy/

Today's politics to me, looks an awful lot like "Pro Wressling". All of the posturing, chest thumping and grandiosity is nothing but kabuki theater to distract us from REAL issues.

Well of course you progressives want to piss away trillions more dollars... in addition to the Trillion dollar squandulus that's already on autopilot... that's more free stuff for you deadbeats... it's us taxpayers that are sick and tired.... what you guys really need is a work ethic....

@Fed up, you are correct you need a work ethic. Considering that the majority of federal aid dollars goes to republican states, I think you really should stop pointing fingers at the people who are busting every day so you can get your freebies.

Over-regulations is a myth created by the GOPTP talking point kingpins. Hate to break it to you but that talking point died final death in the last election - Americans didn't buy it, and voted accordingly. If anything, stronger regulations are needed, especially in the financial services industry. Oh, and speaking of stricter regulations, how many more oil platforms have to explode and how many people have to be killed before stronger regulations need to be enacted and enforced? Ya see, if business would self-regulate, we wouldn't need regulations. But they have proven over and over and over again that they cannot, and will not - thus we must have regulations.

how many more oil platforms have to explode and how many people have to be killed before stronger regulations need to be enacted and enforced?

Regulations can stifle too much business too. The Chinese are buying up US coastal oil exploration leases like crazy. You think they will care about our strict regulations when their barely regulated oil platforms blow up and we have to clean up our ruined shore lines?

Toastedretard,

There are no taxes to hold hostage. The liberal government is spending money faster than it can be replaced by taxes, hence the 16+ trillion dollar deficit. You're dumber than hell.

riiiiiight... cause the 10 trillion that 'Bama inherited was spent by the liberals.... stop watching fox news and start going to primary sources for you information... at the very least you'll stop sounding like an idiot...

Oblamo sure owns the $6 Trillion he borrowed and pissed away....

Fed Up

You mean like the 2 trillion plus of that 6 that consists of two decade long wars that he put on the books? Bush didn't pay for them. 1 trillion plus to pay for Medicare part D that Bush didn't put on the books. 1 trillion to pay for the tax cuts to the 1% that Bush didn't put on the books. 1 trillion or so for the stimulus to counter Bush's abject failure with the economy.

Well well well, what's left out of your "6 trillion he borrowed and pissed away"? It looks to be around 1 or 1.5 trillion that Obama's actually responsible for.

There goes your lying right wing talking point eh? You guys have nothing but hot air and nobody believes it anymore.

Go ahead, ignore the fact that after all the votes came in that were delayed by hurricane Sandy, Obama won the popular vote by the largest margin since Eisenhower.

But we already know that in Fox psychotic fantasy land that means he doesn't have a mandate......

2014 is coming. Ignore the will of the majority at your own peril.

The Democratic party won.....big. When did we suspend the "will of the people" idea? Romney lost.....his ideas lost.....let it go. This is what the people want. Let's make sure they get it. We let this go without major changes ......all Americans lose.

That's exactly what I've been wondering....WWMD?

Taz? Dude, you have GOT to make that into a bumper sticker....that is freaking hilarious! WWMD (What Would Mitt Do?) I'd buy one!

If you want to know what the republicans would do, why don't you ask to see the budget that was passed by the republican-controlled House that is still sitting on Reid's desk?

I mean..rich...sorry to those who are offended by the typo.

S'ok Pig. We thought you were looking in the mirror again. Or should I say still.

Nah...just a typical classy left wing remark.........

Well that word does describe the thing your party is best at doing, guys.

Maybe stop bitching and help come up with solutions?

Nahhh..... the problem is you just weren't far enough to the right. Keep telling yourselves that.

No Ed, You pony up. You want to be so liberal with my money. You give up yours first buddy. Come on show me the way. I've already given up part of my healthcare next year because your commander in grief took it away from me. Now it's your turn.

..another example of how fox 'news' misinforms. Obama didn't take your healthcare genius... he actually stopped heath care companies from ripping us off... PLEASE READ PRIMARY SOURCES and stop depending on fox 'news'' interpretations.

I'm with American_Dream Ed, you start ponying up. I pay more taxes each year than the average American family earns and I am nowhere near rich. Some of the 1/2 of Americans that don't pay any tax needs to start coughing up. So does GE and GM (of which I am apparently part owner as a legitimate tax payer).

Red states take more federal tax dollars than they contribute.

Blue states contribute more federal tax dollars than they take.

This is reality. Go google it. There are hundreds of sources. It's the truth. Time to drop the tired lying talking points, guys.

Most of those complaining did not vote for him either time, yet are suffering due to his and the liberals' fiscal policies of tax and spend.

Who is complaining about Obama? Oh, you mean Fox News, Rush, and a declining group of people too lazy or stupid to think for themselves.

He's doing exactly what President Reagan did, and what he needs to do: he's rallying the American people to put pressure on Congress.

Aren't you the same person who complained that Obama didn't know how to govern because he wasn't out front trying to sell the American people on Obamacare?

You're new to this, right?

Prez propaganda... "if the GOP doesn't give me all the trillions want to piss away, we'll blame them for Santa Claus not coming....." what a low life piece of @!$%# he is....

It's ok Fed Up, the first stages on the road to recovery are anger and denial. You'll get better once you get past all your rage.

You're right...our platform was rejected putting into play your plan or lack thereof. We aren't holding anyone hostage...it's your plan and your problem now...surely you don't need us to help you...so you fix it and good luck in 2014 when the free stuff runs out and the masses are at the white house gate.....

so the weak point of this system of elections is that if the majority of people voting are fools then they win, the fools simply out populate the people with a brain and here we are.

the dems will continue to blame the rep's for their failures as long as there is a single republican in office that they can blame.

all we can do at this point is watch the country fall apart and try to enjoy our lives, but i look at my grandchildren and feel like crying for them, im sorry..but there is nothing i can do... irresponsible people will continue to outpopulate responsible people ... therre is no changing that fact...

Keep the faith Bill....Even Pharaoh, Napoleon, and Hitler were eventually defeated...this plague too will pass...unfortunately many will perish along the way....I predict 18 months before there are riots in the streets like in the 60's.

Actually, as usual, the majority of Americans did not vote for either candidate...

Interesting that you note the 47%. Please remember that the 47% you allude to have no skin in the game at the present time. They already do not pay federal income tax, so I doubt they really care one-way or another about this fiscal cliff. However, as wb52 pointed out, if the deficit continues to rise as it has, which it appears that President Obama is prepared to continue by his demand for an endless debt ceiling, eventually, there will be no more money to borrow as no one will have any confidence in the United States of America. When that happens, the 47% you allude to, take the hardest hit. There will be no choice but to start taxing them. The 51% (who are really the beneficiaries of continuing the tax cuts to those that make $250k and less) tighten their belts, and the 2% (at least those who have been sensible with their money) diversify and liquidate assets and continue on. The 47% are the most vulnerable to this strategy.

President Obama won with 53% of the vote. Romney got 47%. In what universe is that not winning the majority of the vote? You people are out there.

Obama won the popular vote by the biggest margin since Eisenhower.

Suck it up and accept it. Your Congress-children need to sit down and STFU. The people have spoken.

wb -

I think it will be sooner than that as increased taxes kick in after the first.

The GOP has never helped the president in the past. Blocking any legislation he put forward. He got the economy going w/o your help and (apparently) will have to do so in the future. That's ok.....people now see the GOP for what it is...... a bunch of illiterate people people taking money from the feds and then complaining about it. These poor fools (most federal aid goes to blue states) are voting for the super rich. Amazing!

All deadbeats who didn't bother to pick up a book or work for anything for the first 35 years of their lives are behind him.

Mike.D34 - when you continue to post nonsense like 22.2 people know you have nothing of value to say - just more FOX lies! You low information voters on the right learned nothing with this election and you just continue your stupid, worthless whines!

• Notice the future leaders of the GOP (assuming the GOP even has a future) are staying of of this battle. Jeb Bush, Chris Christi -- they don't want to have anything to do with Crying Speaker Tan Man or Nasty Mitch NoConnell.

....Let's call Obozo's bluff and all go over this cliff right now.....I can't wait to raise taxes on all the Dumbocrat moochers and welfare whiners out there.....you may all have to actually get a job and work (heaven forbid), if you can even find a job.....once the economy crashes under the failed Obozo"leadership", he can live with his record of failure and incompetence and all Americans will forced to remember the miserable administration that bankrupted their's and the country's future.....

mike.. i couldn't agree more.. whining about wanting to make a living wage, having heath care that actually cares for your heath, having access to affordable education... it's all so much worse than corporate vulture capitalists when they whine about how these things will bankrupt their companies.

get real broseppe! providing all of these things for the working people in the united states will not cost nearly as much as these vultures say it will... AND the there are certainly other ways besides 'having to cut jobs' to cover the cost. ohhhhh noooo papa johns profits went from 60 million to 45 million because he has to offer health care... it's such a shame that he's still a friggin millionaire at the end of the day

and if i may i'll preempt your self prescribed clever rebuttal. WHY SHOULD HE HAVE TO? geez.. maybe because with his work force he wouldn't be worth a can of pizza sauce!

Same idiotic logic killed Hostess... businesses are created to be altruistic to lazy bums.. they're created to make profits... in doing so, they employ people... you Liberal whiners don't employ anybody... you're just looters and deadbeats... so you have no clue how to create jobs, wealth, or any useful product or service...

@Fed up, Hostess was killed because of piss poor management. The workers made a choice, and so did the owners. It had been bleeding money for years. That is how capitalism works. Are you going socialist on me?

Just keep up your dumbass conspiracies, righties. That worked so well for you November 6th eh? It must be nice and warm in fantasy land because you guys absolutely refuse to come to reality.

It wasn't close.. and it showed what way the country is going GOP needs to change it ways not dig in heals..

annonemouse @ #24---here are some facts from the fact-based world of reality where arithmetic defines whelmed and overwhelmed.

Pres. Barack Obama will fetch 332 electoral ballots in January 2013, or 61.7 percent of the total. That is an overwhelming majority.

As of Nov. 30, for the popular vote, our Prez counted 65,147,939 or 50.91% of the total.

Romney scored 60,610,074 or 47.36% of the total.

[Johnson has 1,266,087 for 0.99% and "others" picked up 961,620.]

Perhaps in some alternative universe, 4,537,865 is an inconsequential number.

When the votes are all counted, Mitt Romney will have garnered.......47%. Ironic or what?

Romney lost because the demographics of the United States now more closely resemble a third world country than a western nation.

Face it America is as viable as a nation as Rome became towards the end.

We are brutally divided and I do not see any way we can live and work together moving forward, particularly given the trend towards taxing those still working to pay for those who can't or won't.

Awww poor GHX. What's the matter hon, you scared the faces out there that aren't white will make render you irrelevant? LOL

First of all, I'm an Independent but I can answer your question. To begin with, the debt rose by 4.899 trillion under 8 years of Bush and 4.939 trillion, not 6 trillion, under 4 years of Obama. However, 1.6 trillion of the debt was inherited by Obama from the Bush administration and another approximately 1.5 trillion was a result of the Bush tax cuts. So while 4.9 trillion occurred during Obama's term, essentially, he's only responsible for just a little less than 2 trillion of the increase.

Now, whether or not he's "the best president ever" remains to be seen. However, I will say this; compared to the alternatives the republicans offered up, he's sure as hell the best choice.

Spartan thank you I could not have said it any better.

I agree Spartan...thank you!

Hey Numbskull, the debt is now $16,302,796,328,125.00 and growing with no end in sight!.

Bush has not been President for five friggin years.

So, you think it is perfectly acceptable to Obama spend just because Bush did!

Idiots.

Welcome to the liberal mindset!

Scary isn't it???

Hey Publius and WB52

Bush destroyed the economy, started 2 wars, gave taxcuts and drug benefits ALL ON THE DEFICIT!!!

Once again with feeling...

ALL ON THE DEFICIT!!! ALL UNPAID FOR!!! Cheney screamed DEFICITS DON'T MATTER!!!

The majority of the debt is as Spartan described. Obama's share happened pretty much because tax revenues were beyond low because of the recession. Remember the stimulus, unemployment, assisting STATES that were near bankruptcy...

You need to be tied to a chair and given a remedial course on the past 4 years --

Only this time we'll try the truth...

Ah you blissfully ignorant Liberals.. the economic crash was because under Carter laws were passed that let the govt strongarm banks into giving loans to deadbeats who couldn't pay mortgages.. then Dodd (D) adn Frank (D) protected Fannie and Freddie while they bought up all the crap loans... then under Clinton they deregulated banks by rescinding Glass-Steagall, letting Fannie and Freddie package the junk mortgages and sell them to our 401Ks... end result... we had to bail out banks (who paid us back), we had to bail out Fannie and Freddie (who haven't), we lost 1/3 of our 401Ks, and the housing market went to @!$%#... all so that Liberals could turn home ownership into an entitlement... so get your facts straight progressive morons...

Oh, and Congress (yes, Piglosi and Harry the Barrier) voted to spend money on both middle east wars... based on the same intel that Bush had....

Only Liberal idiots believe that fabricated revisionist history you're spewing...

Ah you blissfully ignorant Liberals.. the economic crash was because under Carter laws were passed that let the govt strongarm banks into giving loans to deadbeats who couldn't pay mortgages

FFS if you are going to play the blame game, blame the right president. Which Re-reg troll are you?

The voters have spoken, the party of no has got to go

Yip the party of no has got to go. And they need to start acting like Americans.

You never will on this site.

If you did would you listen?

Did the President promise a power grab during the campaign? Hmmmmm..... I must have missed that one .....or maybe I fell asleep.

that's rich.... the minority group in our government has essentially stalled all progress and you're saying 'Bama is going for the power grab.... please stop listening to fox 'news'

@ Yay 1) I don't listen to Faux news. It is just as bad as this source just in another direction. 2) Look at the CRPD treaty proposed with the UN. What do you think that is all about. The Senate is voting on it Tuesday. Ahhh but I suppose you've never heard of it because NBC has never mentioned it. Wake Up ! That treaty is the POWER GRAB .

They will never accept a proposal that also gives the President supreme power over the debt ceiling ....Look at the entire deal .....Would you want that ?

and that's called negotiating... he'll drop the debt ceiling issue if/when the repubs come up with a counter offer. Obama's gotta keep their self esteem up somehow.. so he'll throw them a bone and make them feel like they've actually accomplished something.

Yay......No Dice. This POTUS has already proven he cannot be trusted to keep his word.