So the GOP aide is quick to leak what the white house, Geithner presented, how come he did not leak their counter proposal to showcase his better alternative. The Presidents has been up front about taxes etc. Let the GOP be up front as well as to what they want cut. The will not get us Democrats negotiating with ourselves as before. This time our case is out there let the GOP put theirs out there and let see how much burst of laughter will be in Boehner and McConnell face. We want them to tell our Seniors and the middle class what they want cut and how much points more they will cut the taxes of the rich 1%.

And over the Fiscal cliff we go! Weeeee

No worries, count me in! I can't always tell who is a re-reg. His type is all the same to me.

Consider the source. These people wouldn't know the truth if it slapped them up side their head.
Why would we choose to believe them?

PS: I like it!

Fire them all !!

OK, friends, Romans, countrymen and NOTA*, let's get a couple of things straight about this so-called 'fiscal cliff'. This is no more than a bunch of Doggamned panic-mongering by a very small contingent of Wall Street bankers, trying to stampede the rest of us into doing something that would be beneficial to them at the expense of all the rest of us.

Now, I can just hear y'all shaking your heads and saying, "Gee whillickers, Fox, cynical much? Why, bankers are the pillars of your community!" Yes, I know it's shocking, and hard to digest the idea that the Wall Street bankers don't always have our best interests at heart- but don't take it from a dumb plumber from Texas. As my first witness, I'm calling Nobel laureate Paul Krugman!

"So let’s step back for a minute, and consider what’s going on here. For years, deficit scolds have held Washington in thrall with warnings of an imminent debt crisis, even though investors, who continue to buy U.S. bonds, clearly believe that such a crisis won’t happen; economic analysis says that such a crisis can’t happen; and the historical record shows no examples bearing any resemblance to our current situation in which such a crisis actually did happen. "

Thank you, Mr. Krugman! I've enlisted his support by way of making my case that if Boehner, Cantor and McConnell are warning us about some dire emergency, impending disaster, imminent catastrophe, or even a bad day on the links, you should remember that they're talking about their billionaire patrons- not those of us who actually have productive occupations. We simply don't count in their calculations, and anybody who still believes that these three and their heartless, brainless (but tireless!) minions would ever, under any conceivable circumstances, promote any kind of policy that would benefit the productive class more than, or instead of, the parasitic, non-job-creating, tax-evading Ruling Class, you need to just pack a bag now and move to Disney World; your visa to Reality just expired.

Mr. Krugman- one more time, please? "What has changed? For one thing, the crisis they predicted keeps not happening." Ah yes, there is that to consider! Remember, fellow citizens of the Republican persuasion, these are the same people who have been pushing 'trickle-down' economics on you for thirty- some years now- how's that workin' out for ya?

* None Of The Above

Just when did we all begin to follow this piper anyway. Leading use astray I say. Need adult supervition from somewhere. Use kids are screwing it up. God help use.

Golly peter, the fiscal cliff was largely glossed over by both sides prior to the poll in november. Seems that the only mandate, if any, was for congress to work together and get our economic house in order. Boehner is talking about raising revenue and addressing our out of control spending. You know, a balanced approach.

Obama and company just want to raise taxes on the top 2% without any discourse on reigning in spending. Of course his pen is ready to go. If congress does nothing on obamas tax plan. the tax rates will automatically go up for everyone. Doesn't take any brains to figure that out. Takes even less brains to understand that merely letting the top 2% tax rates go up will even have any serious impact on reducing our yearly deficts, let alone putting a dent in our $16 trillion national debt.

As for the payroll tax, let it expire. All it does is rob SS and medicare funding. Same for extended unemployment bennies, or perhaps obama and company thinks the economy isn't doing as well as expected. Didn't he publicly proclaim that the private sec tor was doing fine?

Just three quick points. Lots more to write about, but long posts don't work well with liberals.

1. The GOP should require all negotiations to be done in public on C-SPAN. Not only would it make the transparency claims of Mr. Obama, um, clearer, but it would help hold Republicans' feet to the fire over taxes.

2. If well over $800 billion in stimulus, plus trillions in additional deficit spending, plus trillions in new printed money, didn't get the economy going, then who is the Einstein who thinks $50 billion will be the trick? Our economic problem is more fundamental than a Keynesian circle jerk among leftists can fix.

3. Mr. Obama said that borrowing from our heirs was and is immoral. I agreed then and still do. Let's go off this cliff together. It is time we faced the consequences of our own voting choices. If this means recession I only wonder if anyone will really notice. If we were borrowing this money to make a future America better, as opposed to making the current America easier for us to live in, then the added debt wouldn't be immoral. But we've done nothing of the sort.

All I've heard out of the president is 'just raise taxes on the top 2%'. Assume this happens. The administration now has 3% (about $45 Billion)of the money it needs to close the deficit, which is $1.3Trillion. Pres Obama has not offered any other sage advice. The so-called entitlements must be reformed in order to reign in spending. The Democrats also refuse to budge on the free hand-out programs.

Fiscal cliff is Obama's fault? You guys really need to learn what Fiscal Cliff and when it starts. Here is a hint, it starts with the tax cut.

The term "Fiscal Cliff" only exist in the last 12 years.

Interesting comment by former Ways and Means Chair Bill Archer:

We need to tax corporate profit at 100% and all income above $66K at 100% to balance our budget.

Americas unfunded obligations currently stand at 86 trillion... OUCH!

My thought is we have a spending problem

The Republicans still refuse to admit that it will take some tax 'pain' to fix the mess created by Republican tax cuts, and get America back on top.

But this is what the majority of Americans want. Excessive tax increases, minimal cuts in spending and unlimited debt. Remember, it was a landslide and this is what liberals stand for.

I think taxes should be raised across the board with the rich paying a higher rate above everyone else. Significantly cut military spending. And stop "investing" tax dollars in projects that the "people" will not support. And stop running up the debt. If the budget comes up in the negative, just raise taxes.

Here is what I really don't understand. If we look around at all of the states with fiscal problems. Yet when a fiscal conservative tries to get the state budget under control they are chastised up one side and down the other. (Scott Brown WI, Chris Christie NJ) Both states to the best of my research are doing much better than they were prior to these governors elections.

So the real issue here is, Why do so many of the democrats fear fiscal conservatism? The only thing that comes to mind is that they are the people who stand to lose something. Much like the unions in Wis, and NJ. Being asked to contribute to their Med Ins, and Pensions much like the private sector does (but at a greatly reduced rate).

I heard someone said somewhere 70% of 100 is 70% but 100% of zero is zero.

Foxtrotsky...

Ahh bringing up that stallwart obama supporter krugman. Ever listen to his triads against the right. They inspire me to laughter, gales of laughter. Mark zandi and other economists have a more balanced and objective opinion that krugman.

Let's see, want to talk about crises?

The SS trustees have said that by 2033 they will only be able to pay out ~75% of what retirees are supposed to get.

Political consensus (either side) is that medicare will be unfunded around 2024.

With the FED maintaining such low interest rates, we still payout a sizeable amount in servicing our public debt. Just think what we will paying out in interest when the FED starts raising the rates.

With such a low yield on treasuries, buyers of such treasuries aren't even keeping up with expected inflation. Only two main things are encouraging the purchase of treasury's, the belief that however inane, the U.S. will always pay its debt and that the U.S. dollar is still the worlds reserve currency.

I wonder what excuse krugman would offer up when buyers of our treasury's decide that the risk is just to great.

BTW...Is it better to take small steps to fix the economy over a long term and avoid crises, or just keep on keepin' on untill we have our own greek crises down the road.

Democrats that fall in line behind this administration have to be either on the dole, brain-dead, or both.

Let's see, working on four fiscal years with no operating budget, none, zip, zero. Borrow and spend, Trillion -plus deficits each year. But this fiscal cliff event is being blamed on John Boehner, how brilliant.

It looks like speaker Boehner is directly in the firing line to be the next scape goat for the incompetent-in-chief. After four dismal finger-pointing years it must be time to let G. W. Bush off the hook.

Hi COinFL,

What shellacking do you think happened? The GOP lost a small number of seats in both houses of Congress, picked up governorships, have a lead in state legislatures, and lost the presidency. I would have liked a better outcome, but this is a shellacking? Anticipating that your answer will be "yes", then could you please explain to me how after the 2010 election blowout in which Democrats were DECIMATED in both houses, that Democrats didn't simply follow the Republican plan?

I didn't, and wouldn't, have expected liberals to give up simply because they were overwhelmingly defeated. So why do you think Republicans should give up when the only slightly lost the presidency and a few seats in each house? Since I know you cannot be a hypocrite--you are far too smart and honorable for that to be possible--I can only assume that your demands in 2010 and 2011 and 2012 for Democrats to just agree to and pass all things Republican were responded to by Democratic leaders with a prominent middle finger?

Randy... Hostess bakers unions baked their own goose here. Even the teamsters told them to get with the program. Maybe obama will step in and offer hostess a bailout. LOL, gotta have them twinkies!

Casey "Truth", I'm calling shenanigans on you. You need to provide a reference for that, sir; either back it up, or admit that you're just another lying right-wing drone who'll dutifully repeat any falsehood or prevarication, disseminate any distortion or embellishment, broadcast any canard or misapprehension that your brain controllers at Fox Entertainment tell you you're expected to believe.

To my fellow lefties: Have you ever wondered just why our beautiful Mother Tongue offers so many different ways to express the idea of deliberately speaking untruths? It's because there are so many different kinds of conservatives!

To Casey: Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia. Eurasia has always been allied to Oceania.

Maybe obama will step in and offer hostess a bailout. LOL, gotta have them twinkies!

One can only hope............

Obama may be able to buy votes with his promise of entitlements, but those votes will not pay the bills in reality. It is easy to promise utopia, but impossible to deliver.

One would certainly hope that Republicans would find the first offer absurd. That's how negotiations work, bargaining from two opposed, absurd, initial positions to a compromise in the middle. So the initial offer should be at least as absurd as the Republican's opening volley: not a single dollar in tax increases for the rich, massive increases in defense spending, and massive cuts to everything else to offset both. Beats the president's first term approach of offering the Republicans 90% of what they wanted, then watching them balk and demand at least 98%

I miss Bill Clinton!!

rightwingnut(job) . . .

Democrats that fall in line behind this administration have to be either on the dole, brain-dead, or both.

The country voted and so sorry (not) your party LOST! We are not on the dole (are you British?), nor are we brain dead. We love our country and want it to move forward. We are sick and tired of the obstruction presented by Boehner & Co.

The Breeze ...

Never I've never seen a liberal wear a flag pin or display the flag at their home.

I've one at my home and guess what dork! I actually make sure it is lit at all times. "Stupid is as stupid does." Get out more .....

The Breeze --

Patriotism is doing what is best for my our country, not just pretending to care. I display the flag.

I also go to church from time to time, but I don't carry a Bible everywhere and I don't wear a cross around my neck. I guess you're saying that I am not worthy of heaven because I am not telling everybody that I am in fact worthy....

there is no cliff, if they do nothing we simply return to the tax table of 1999.did anybody starve then? this is all bs, anybody who thinks the repub party is going to agree with obama on anything is being foolish, Republicans are the defenders of the rich and haters of workers, thats why they lost the election, they just don't get or they just don't care. either way, it;s all gonna be fine, the GDP is up 2.75% LAST QUARTER, exports are up. republicans just hate that,

Layton,

....just answer this. How can you run a country of more than 300 million people without a budget? I can't think of anyone who would be able to run their own household for four years without being on a budget. But your party thinks it can. The Democrats win, America loses. But don't take my word for it. Read up on the situation in Greece. When the free money dries up will you one of the angry masses smashing bank windows and burning cars?

$50 billion dollars in new stimulus spending for fiscal year 2013.

Exacty how does this look like success in the making??!!! NOT A SINGLE STIMULUS DOLLAR HAS HELPED OUR ECONOMY!! Not one.

The REPUBLICANS' goal: To rescue the economy by cutting deficit spending and eliminating some tax breaks.

The PRESIDENT'S goal: To send the country into recession and blame it on Republicans.

This is further proof that President Obama is a petty, petulant amateur, who has never had a real job (other than a 6-hour-a-week law lecturer) and is more interested in income equality by redistribution, destroying wealth, demonizing people who work, and winning petty political games.

And Harry Reid is no better. No budget in 1400 days, 16 trillion in debt, a housing and financial crisis, four consecutive trillion dollar deficits, a trillion dollar health care bill no one read, and lingering unemployment all on his watch.

I'm glad people that voted for him are getting what they deserve, unfortunately so do the rest of us. Greased runners for the fast downhill ride........woooohoooo!

The republicans will get the blame if we go off the cliff. Everyone already knows their game now. I think they are just posturing, but they should get NOTHING. And note to dems: do NOT start taking down entitlements, make the republicans do it themselves. Nobody wants to ruin SS, and that should not even be on the table in these talks (has NOTHING to do with the deficit). Medicare cuts are already on the table and now it is up to republicans. Put up or STFU.

Layton-3733410

The Democrats are trying to get this country above water and your simplistic antagonistic party can't get on board.

Umm, from what I can remember - our now 'sitting' President said he wouldn't run again if his policies failed. You're now saying that they did fail. Why is he still there?

Layton,........

You must be delusional. What does the number $5.7 trillion mean to you? probably nothing. To me it signifies the greatest accretion of outstanding public debt to occur throughout history in only four years. In 2009 pres Bush leaves the white house, national debt 10.6 trillion. Four years later, $16.23 trillion and 23 million Americans unemployed.

This means nothing to most people as long as they have a roof over their head and some groceries. But you had a chance at placing the country you profess to love (I don't believe it) back on a path to prosperity and excellence with a balanced budget and based on your ramblings you blew it.

Forward? .......impeding drilling permits, $trillion plus deficits each year, stubbornly high unemployment, bungling foreign policy.......

Evidently you have no valid counter argument so persist with the insults if it serves to bolster your fragile ego.

justoneguy . . .

Why is he still there?

Because the country believes in President Obama and didn't think Mitt Romney could solve squat.

rightwingnut(job) ...

You must be delusional. What does the number $5.7 trillion mean to you? probably nothing

No it means a helluva lot to me. What does it mean to YOU? Unfunded wars ... out seeking WMD's, Halliburton? JM&J! Wake up! It's not a household budget! It is one that is inherited. And your boy, GW left this country in a nasty state. We are trying to get out of the mud that he left. If and when you crazy teabaggers could get on board and realize what the President is doing is for the GOOD of the country, you might be respected a wee bit more.

@ AG99: last time i checked, unemployment is paid in by "YOU" and" YOUR" employer, not the government. Welfare is paid by the government and it's not free either. Unless you've collected on it before, then you would know that when you collect welfare you must repay it pack when you re-gain employment. This is the very reason alot of deadbeat people choose to stay unemployed, so they don't have to work or pay it back. Of course i wouldn't expect a liberal to understand how it works because their always looking for freebies and have no clue how the working world lives. Also, just to fill your curiosity, i'm not a demo or pub, and I only take the side of the American people who are smart enough to see what both parties do, which is nothing more than waste taxpayer dollars while pointing the finger at each other and accomplish nothing every day.

The liberals all think the republicans will get blamed if there is no agreement, it has never ever worked like that, the party of the president will be blamed for skyrocketing unemployment. Obamas whole second term will be a failure and the democrats will get shellacked in the mid terms.

But, after two weeks of discussions, the offer the White House made today is completely unbalanced and unreasonable, and amounts to little more than reiterating the president’s budget request

Is that the same budget request that the GOP spent the campaign season claiming that Obama never put forward?

How do you "reiterate" something that has never been brought up before?

You can't have it both ways, GOP.

this bonehead potentate Barry H. can't even spell fiscal responsibility much less show the slightest knowledge about what it means

Julkie

wake up , Barry's "budget" was sharted out years ago and got soundly beaten into the pile of rubbish that it was , remember it was voted down in the Senate without a single vote from HIS OWN BOYS , hahaha , being inflicted by leftyism sure does blow

Whitehouse said yesterday their plan was on their website while GOP tards said their was no plan....GOP...party of lie and lie some more. Holding the nation hostage last time and causing the rate to go up was a good plan huh?...So they lost the election because the real workers, the middle class, are tired of the Rt wing B.S. and the rt wingers are still playing the same old tune.......Welfare for the rich 1%.

John Athondoe - remember it was voted down in the Senate without a single vote from HIS OWN BOYS , hahaha , being inflicted by leftyism sure does blow

Aw, I thought ya'll would be happy that all the Democrats "saw the light" and voted with your GOP boys on the budget. Damned if you do, damned if you don't - I guess that's the GOP's guiding principle now?

Actually, the Dems decided to put off the budget negotiations until after the election. So the vote wasn't a "referendum", it was a "strategy".

Is that too complicated for you to understand? If so, better head back over to FOX, where they'll tell you how to thunk it out.

Robert...and giving welfare to the rich 1% is better than helping starving children, families and VETS is better for America huh?.....Get a clue...the nation did not think it was a good thing to end all taxes for Romney and the Rich.....rt wingers lost!...They couldn't buy the election, they could not win the election by committing voter fraud and creating voter suppresion laws. B.S. on your story...if all you do is stand around looking at people who have to use food stamps you need therapy. There are strict guidlines on cars people can own and their worth, cash on hand, assets etc. You glorify the rich repubs who made off with all the money during this last crash and then you rip your fellow vets on food stamps....typical repub...

Julkie

Who Is The Smallest Government Spender Since Eisenhower? Would You Believe It's Barack Obama?

No Julkie, anybody that has any type of fiduciary wisom does NOT believe that......cheers.

george pauljohn - You know, I'm starting to agree with you.

When the GOP started trotting out their lies about how "1/2 of the 2% is small business owners" (even after the fact-checkers have told them they're wrong numerous times, so now it's certainly a "lie" and not a "misstatement" as Boehner's people claimed later), I thought, "What the hell - let all the rates go up!"

Then the GOP can work with the Democrats to reduce the rates that everyone can agree on. Like those for everyone under $250k taxable.

Instead of fighting over what to raise, let's fight over what to cut.

Right Wing

The greatest acceleration of spending and deficits actually occured between 1916 & 1919.

Spending 1916 $714 MILLION spending in 1919 $18.49 BILLION and increase of nearly 26 times that of 1916. That is what democrats running things brings.

The US debt from 1789 - 1915 was $855 Million 1916 - 1919 (4 years) $23.248 BILLION. or 27.19 times the debt in 1915.

To those that say go over the fiscal Cliff, what you are doing is similar to 1920. Budget was dropped from 18.49 Billion to 6.258 Billion (33% of the 1919 spending) while taxes were raised 25% for the fourth year in a row and netted only 20% more revenue.

This fiscal Cliff is about 100 billion in cuts (2.6% of the budget) , but taxes are to increase up to 38% BEFORE the ACA tax increases are added.

What is happening in Greece and Spain is nothing compared to how we will be treated. Our situation is actually worse than theirs. Our debt is 101% of our GDP while their's were less than 97%. Our rate of increased debt is higher than theirs.

The way to get out of debt is create wealth with products. What are we doing forcing mfr's to spend more money to increase benefits and more taxes for politicians to give more money to people who don't work for it.

Smart, real Smart eh?

on this round we are screaming how

justoneguy - No comment on Krugman's chart, I see.

Looks like it was your boy Bush who was the champ of "big government".

Julke

That is the problem with the democratic party. Politics is the priority, not dealing with reality.

1) Earlier this year, the Senate passed a tax bill with 51 votes, after a full-bore lobbying campaign by the White House. That bill – which the White House has constantly been calling on Congress to pass – would raise approximately $800 billion in additional tax revenue. The White House offer today called for nearly twice that amount of tax revenue, including plenty of rate hikes. While $1.6 trillion is the White House’s public position, it is ridiculous to offer that amount two weeks after negotiations began - and less than a month before we must have a solution. Why on Earth would the White House think the Senate would or could pass a bill with DOUBLE that amount in tax hikes? (let alone the House?)

2) The White House keeps saying it wants a ‘balanced approach’ but this offer is completely unbalanced and unrealistic. It calls for $1.6 trillion in tax hikes – all of that upfront – in exchange for only $400 billion in spending cuts that come later. Plus, the only entitlement changes they proposed come from the exact proposals in the President’s budget.

O'bama's goal is to plunge off the fiscal cliff while blaming the Republicans. This is quite obvious. You voted for him America...now you have to eat it.

haha...it sure isn't to "hard to figure" you out

"Krugman" , hahahahaha , now that's a first class bafoon , even quoting him is stupid

Here we go again with the obstructionist party of NO. This is beyond ridiculous. People should rise up and bombard their repug representatives to stop this visciousness and start serving their constituents instead of their party. Then vote their azzes out of office in 2014.

John Athondoe - can we see your Nobel Prize for economics?

I'm sure you have one, right?

If you haven't noticed, the GOP "brain trust" isn't carrying quite the heft it did a while back.

(Anybody seen Karl Rove lately? Somebody really should do a welfare check.)

BreezeBrain posts: I've never seen a liberal wear a flag pin or display the flag at their home.

BreezeBrain, i'm certain that this reference won't mean anything to you, but- "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." - Dr. Samuel Johnson

I have to wonder if you are one of those who has a flag flying outside their home at ALL times, in every season and through the night, in flagrant violation of flag protocols. I don't wonder if you are one of those who feels that wearing a flag lapel pin makes you smarter, better informed, and possessed of better ideas for your nation's improvement. (Hint: It doesn't, Cheeze, and you're not. Not by a Texas mile, pal.)

And you've got some damn nerve, telling me that I'm unAmerican because I'm a Liberal. Republicans throughout history have shown again and again that they openly hold American ideals in contempt. A few irrefutable facts:1940: Senate Republicans, led by Taft of Ohio and Wheeler of Montana, wanted to make the best deal they could with Hitler. Roosevelt wanted to kick his ass- and did just that.

1950: Harry Truman makes it clear to Mao Zedong and Josef Stalin that we were prepared to back our South Korean ally with nuclear force. They backed down. 1952: Eisenhower campaigned, and was elected, on a promise to go over to Korea personally and fix everything. He did that by just giving the Commies back what they'd lost on the ground, thus making ensuring that 34,000 brave American soldiers gave their lives for nothing. 1956: While Hungarian patriots are fighting Soviet paratroopers and tanks in the streets of Budapest with Molotov cocktails and raw courage, Eisenhower boldly and resolutely turned his back on their desperate appeals for help, because he was too busy kissing the ass of a bloodstained Middle Eastern tyrant (Gamal Abdel Nasser) by sticking a knife in the backs of two of America's wartime allies, Great Britain and France, and as an added bonus exposing the eight-year-old nation of Israel to grave danger of invasion and annihilation.

I could go on like this until next January and I'd barely have begun to adequately describe the long parade of villainy, cowardice, treachery, double-dealing, bullying, torture, rape, enslavement, theft, and religious repression that is the legacy of the party of Lincoln. I have had it with you Reptilicans always running your mouths about how goddamn patriotic you are, while your party's leaders are hell-bent on destroying the middle class and turning America into a resource colony for our enemies. Your party has no moral courage and no sense of honour. You and other ignorant crackers like you are pretty much the distillation of everything that people around the world hate about the America that you are complicit in destroying.

DB Akron - That is the problem with the democratic party. Politics is the priority, not dealing with reality.

Ha, that's rich - coming from the party that vowed to make Obama a one-term President by blocking everything.

How'd that plan work out for ya?

I have had it with you Reptilicans always running your mouths about how goddamn patriotic you are, while your party's leaders are hell-bent on destroying the middle class and turning America into a resource colony for our enemies.

This is a free country. Deal with it. We are equally tired of your ignorance. How have the Republicans destroyed the middle class btw?

This is typical of what we come to expect from the democrats. Their ide of compromise is fro the GOP to cave. i dont think so. it would be better for us to go off the fiscal cliff than to make a bad deal. return the tax rates for one and all to the Clinton Era. Cut social program by 40% and cu8t defense by the same amount. Rein the spending and reduce the debt, we will be better off in the long run. you can not trust the democrats. If the GOP caves they will never win any elections for they will lose their base support.

Kornfed - Mainly by pushing policies that let the already-haves take all the increased productivity earned by the working class.

Tell me one more time why Mitt Romney gets to take his "wages" as capital gains?

Foxytrotsky the flag flew over our LZ during the Tet Offensive in 68 in all kinds of weather, so if we can survive that then we can survive alittle rain and snow. The Tea Party is coming for y'all...

sorry sparky , don't give a lot of worship to "Nobel Prizes" , after all they gave one to Barry for...uuhhh...hhmmmm...uuhhh...mmmmuuhhh....oh ya , nothing , interesting

"Tell me one more time why Mitt Romney gets to take his "wages" as capital gains?"

uh...the same reason your mom and dad and grandparents do , you do realize that they have retirement "wages" from capital gains don't you?, didn't Krugman tell you that?...sorry , I assumed they aren't on the government teet , my bad

Julkie

Kornfed - Mainly by pushing policies that let the already-haves take all the increased productivity earned by the working class.

So by being successful, they have essentially stolen money from the middle class? The computer you use to write these posts...were you forced to buy it from a successful company?

Julkie

Tell me one more time why Mitt Romney gets to take his "wages" as capital gains?

Because he made smart investments from money he earned that had already been taxed. You are free to pursue these same ambitions.

There is nothing Congress likes better than being able to squeeze more taxes out of the middle class so they can relax taxes on the wealthy, er, that is to say, themselves! It won't be a surprise to me if someday we see the wealthy paying near 0 (ZERO) percent in taxes while the rest of us pay 80% of our income to them!

FoxTrotsky, the R.I.N.O.s in congress DO NOT speak even for the rank and file Republican voters any more. I voted as an independent for O'bama, not for Romney which I would have if I voted within my party. Fact taxes ARE going up on the middle class if need be. The military budget is GOING to be cut as agreed. The middle class will remember the intransigence of the GOP and vote accordingly in two years.

Leon Trotsky was a moron...why would you choose him as your namesake? , I don't really care , just making conversation

as well as a request for $50 billion dollars in new stimulus spending

So the government is going to get more money from the taxpayers just to turn around and spend more money. Sorry but its not suppose to work that way.

It's like getting a raise but instead of paying down your debt you turn around and buy a new car you don't need.

Let's take a look at the whole Hostess break-up, shall we? That's the same old buddy-buddy system our government and corporations have been doing for the last 30-40 years. The executives get so much money and they screw up totally and what are they going to do? Give those executives 1 - 2 million dollars to do what? Keep them around so they can be hired again while the employees who worked hard and earned 3600 times less than these executives get the boot! It's no wonder Hostess went under, nearly ALL of their profits had to go to pay their 7 or 8 top executives who made more a year than the rest of their nearly 20,000 workers. How can our government and businesses expect to remain in business if they continue to do business they way they have been doing? You cannot make money out of thin air and pay a few people ridiculous amounts of money while the masses starve!

Khan

the "wealthy" pay most of the taxes now , haven't you been listening ?, or is the sound of John Stewart and Bill Maher and Paul Drugman overpowering truth? , no need to answer , I don't care , just making conversation

BreeezeBrian ....

And you've got some damn nerve, telling me that I'm unAmerican because I'm a Liberal. Republicans throughout history have shown again and again that they openly hold American ideals in contempt

Just a tiny little "light" history lesson for your tiny ass brain .... The Democrats saluted the Vets at the DNC ... The RNC did NOT .... When you actually get out of your basement and realize that the majority of this country voted for the current President you'd know that the MAJORITY of this country THINKS!

When there is no skin in the game for nearly half of all Americans, this is what we will continue to get. This is why the lab rat does cocaine until it keels over. It has no concept of consequences.

Julkie

Actually, the Dems decided to put off the budget negotiations until after the election. So the vote wasn't a "referendum", it was a "strategy".

STRATEGY?

It was a strategy you say?

The “Dems” decided to put off the budget negotiations for 1,308 days?

You realize the Democrats haven’t passed a budget since April 29, 2009, right?

Nice try at being clever. You’re just making yourself more insignificant than you already are.

Try to keep up Spanky.

Layton-3733410

Just a tiny little "light" history lesson for your tiny ass brain .... this country voted for the current President you'd know that the MAJORITY of this country THINKS!

Thanks for your complete wisom and character Layton. It's quite telling.

justoneguy ....

Thanks for your complete wisom

I don't know what wisom is. And as far as my posts being "telling" ... I own my words and stand up for my thoughts. Yor speaking ill of me ... well, "wisom" isn't something that I have. Wisdom, I do.

Ahhh just give Mr O his own rubber stamp and let him run with it that is a sure way to eliminate the Democrats give them everything they want and they will turn on each other. its true after the rich depart they will eat each other. and why is it when the VP laughs its intelligent and when someone with a functional brain laughs its not . hell the Democrats wont even vote for that bill what makes you think a Republican will, The President has sent a proposal that he knows will not be accepted I have to wonder WHY? it was already rejected before he added more negative spending to it and no politician in their right mind would hand over a blank check without limits on it this man intends on breaking the economy and ????????? this is a repeat of the same crap all over again. I see Feisties post below I might add that no socialist government has ever worked, every one implodes before 80 years is up. and every time the people turned on each other that is not the future I want for my children's children. how long has Europe been socialist? not very long and look at them, they are about to start killing each other. do you want that here. they will go like domino's its inevitable.

I love the dems who only want taxes raised on the rich but not on the middle class. I love the repubs who think that the rich shouldn't pay more at all. I love reading the comments of people who think eliminating the debt ceiling is a good idea and that we should not cut that much government spending. I got news for everyone! Our ruling class has pillaged and raped our economy for decades and now we have to pay the piper. We have a skyrocketing national debt that we have to pay more and more to service every year. Our federal government, and many of the state governments, have run a way deficits. If we want to fix this now we are going to need to change our government. The various departments under our government are out of control. The DHS infringes upon our civil rights while wasting billions every year. The DOD wastes billions every year and fights in wars that we should not be fighting in. The FDA is wasteful. The DOJ infringes upon our civil rights and is wasteful. All of this talk over social programs and welfare is silly. Our 3 biggest expenditures are social security, medicare/medicaid and defense. We need to reform social security now so that it doesn't go bankrupt in 25 years. We need to cut wasteful spending from medicare and medicaid. We could cut military spending 43% and still be at 2003 levels. It's time America cuts back. We have become a nation of greed and waste. We need to have a serious debate over the role of government in our lives. All I see though is finger pointing and proposals that should rightly be laughed at. Obama doesn't think we'll have a balanced budget for at least ten years, thats what I have gathered from the articles I have read. That is a joke.

You know this is what the Republicans are reduced to when they don't have a leg to stand on. I really think it's kind of funny when the "Republicans" can parade around the CEO of Goldman Sac's and say he's a "small business man" and have them say that any tax increase will hurt them BUT the President can get those that are truly small business people (i.e. Mom and Pop businesses) and they have NO problem with the tax increase. The Irony is that some Republicans are actually agreeing with the President over the tax increases. Maybe the ones that are open to what the President is actually proposing DID hear the voices of the people on November 6th.

Isn't it also ironic how those Congressional "Republicans" are waiting for the President to do THEIR job for them? Where is their plan for the Fiscal cliff? Why haven't they presented anything yet?

Any of you "Loyal" Republican loving folks on this site care to answer this question??????

When the only thing the WH and Demos offered are cuts 10 years from now and deficit caps unchecked by Congress? I wonder why?

Our government is the biggest bunch of fools on the planet...

Our government are the biggest bunch of fools on the planet...

The American people elected this government sir! Who is more foolish, the fool or the fool who elects him?

Common Sense 23

Isn't it also ironic how those Congressional "Republicans" are waiting for the President to do THEIR job for them? Where is their plan for the Fiscal cliff? Why haven't they presented anything yet?

Ok, I guess your mental retention isn’t very good. Don’t worry, that’s not uncommon for you Libbies. So, you want something presented, right?

Republican budget proposals

Rand Paul Plan

Republican Study Committee Plan

Paul Ryan Plan

Mack Penny Plan

Cut, Cap and Balance

Bipartisan budget proposals

Debt commission- National Commission on Fiscal Responsibility and Reform

Senate Gang of Six

Obama budget proposals

Obama Plan #1

Obama Plan #2

So, Common, here you have 9 (NINE) plans that were presented over the past 2 years.

First of all I don’t see any plans from the Democrats. Do you?

Next, don’t you think that out of all these ideas the obstructionist Democrats and Barrack Hussein could find a plan that everyone could work with?

You pathetic Liberals have the balls to blame the Republicans as the party of NO in your desperate attempt to be clever, yet you have not presented a single WRITTEN proposal in 4 years.

I can show you all 5 of the republican plans and the 2 bipartisan plans. You can even look at Barrack Husseins plans that didn’t get a single vote in the Democratic controlled Senate if you want a good laugh.

Show the world your written plan. I dare you.

Any of you "Loyal" Liberal loving folks on this site care to answer this question??????

Your hypocrisy is overwhelming your common sense.

Its not going to work. Even if they get the tax increases, the unlimited debt ceiling thing can only be funded by bond sales which have dropped off and February being the month when inflows of revenue are traditionally lowest may cause the government to lay off massive amounts of federal employees or shutter the government. Either way is okay with me, The government has become an onerous burden with 30 cents out of every tax dollar staying in Washington. Furthermore, the tax increases will be purely symbolic, no amount of revenue it raises will amount to squat,what we need first is a balanced budget amendment, then transfer most of federal responsibility to the states is so far as S.S.. medicaid and unemployment. I could go on indefinitely, both parties are guilty of dereliction of duty, breaking their oath to uphold the constitution and protect the nation. Its an abomination.

Send them out into the country for re-education

thank you

Amen-the government is polarized because we are polarized. Look at Bernie Saunders' email on class warfare. Half of us think (or 47%) they're the only ones that do anything and everyone else lives off of them. The other half of us is sick of that story and the self acclamed economic gurus who caused the banking and investment mess that we are still paying for. Look at how some of us get paid millions for screwing things up and getting ridiculous tax breaks, while the rest of us pay for it at a very low rate per hour.

DISCLAIMER

I acknowledge that I may be wrong, returning to the Clinton era tax rates seems to be on track, along with the dissolution of the payroll tax cuts policy.

But no unlimited debt ceiling and I certainly would not penalize successful people by taxing them more for a pitiful trickle of revenue.

I also like to remind you all that "free market" is the reason we are in this state right now. The "free" here is to free to ship millions of job oversea and make no plan for companies to keep jobs in the US for decades.

Aww JimSpence, I knew it was a matter of time before you decided to challenge me again. First off let's get one thing straight, I'm an Independent and NOT a liberal. As for the rest of your jibberish, let's see. Name ONE of those plans that promotes any kind of fairness into the system while balancing the budget AND paying down the debt.........Answer......NONE of them. Each and every plan offers ONLY spending cuts and no revenue or solution to handle the debt WITH the exception of the Paul Ryan plan (which is the only plan that has come close to being bipartisan) but his doesn't addressed it for another 10 years AND it adds to the debt.

So tell me Jim, how are these plans going to turn around the economy while paying down the debt AND adding fiscal balance? AT least EVERY PLAN that Obama has offered was not only paid for BUT paid didn't add to the debt. But this not considered a solution to you right? Even when the OWN President's idea put his own party in an uproar because he proposed cuts to their "pet" programs. At least the President was bold enough to put country first instead of politics which is why his proposal was rejected by the Senate. But to you this is NOT being considered a leader. So I'll do you one better.

Name ONE Republican that was willing to put Country before Party two years ago? When you can answer this question, then I will consider you as being someone worthy of having common sense instead of a sore loser.

I see a whole lot of Republican bashing going on, but not many comments from the Left concerning the ridiculousness of this proposal. Gee...Iwonder why. /s/

Let the country go over the fiscal cliff. Cooperate with this moronic clown on nothing. Give him the most disastrous, ineffective 2d term in history. Show the idiots who voted for him that what they really voted for was the destruction of the United States, because the rest of us will not work with him-- period.

rightwingnut69

Democrats that fall in line behind this administration have to be either on the dole, brain-dead, or both.

I am 36 and have worked since I was 12. Paid for my own college education and have never collected any form of public assistance and jusging my your posts my IQ is probably thrice of yours.

Let's see, working on four fiscal years with no operating budget, none, zip, zero. Borrow and spend, Trillion -plus deficits each year. But this fiscal cliff event is being blamed on John Boehner, how brilliant.

I dont recall the exact figure but a majority of Americans (60+% ?) put the fiscal cliff squarely on the shoulders of the republicans and their obstructionism. So if we do not reach an agreement - guess who will be thrown out of office in the coming year? LOL Thats right. Idiot GOP congress folk.

I read alot of the blogs on this panel and all I hear is GOP bashing and blaming GOP. Obama talks about compromise and yet Harry Reid and his cronies all they want to do is spend and tax which is not compromising, it got to be the Democrats way or no way at all. There needs to be entitlement reform other wise this Government is back to square one again in the future. So I say to you Harry Reid you talk about the GOP should put something on the table, well I don't see any of you and your cronies doing the same. I AM SO SICK AND TIRED OF THE BIAS, DOUBLE STANDARD, HYPOCRITE BS from this panel and the Left/Liberals. Now the Democrats want to raise the deficit for more money, the Left really want to collapse this country from within by their actions and what's ironic that 50% of the Americans support it , otherwise they the Americans would show outraged. I guess you all do want to turn like Greece and Europe to become a socialist country. Otherwise all this crap wouldn't be happening. I hope it does collapse and everything goes up in prices and taxes hit everyones pocket including the poor and middle class. All this be done by the hands of the stupid people in this country. A true Democrat is President Kennedy who stated. NOW EVERYONE WANTS FREEEEEEEEE STUFF FROM SANTAS CLAUS AT THE WHITE HOUSE. SHAMEFUL, PURE LAZYNESS, LACK OF MORALS AND VALUES IN THIS COUNTRY.!!!!!

The Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For
You Speech

Suggestion for the dems, just let us go off the cliff. Then the repugs will get 0 of what they want, defense cuts that will make them cry and the rest of us smile. All the Bush tax cuts will go away, can do a middle class tax cut in a week to fix that. These repugs think they hold the cards, but they hold nothing. The tax cuts are going away why cant they see that, they have nothing to bargain with they gave that all away when their super committees couldnt come to an agreement. So now the dems hold all the cards.
So glad crybaby Speaker got 98% of what he wanted.

The so called fiscal cliff is a complete charade to keep the graving train rolling for the wealthy republican defense contractors, 1 percenters, etc. And now how comical it is for the republican teabag taliban to once again hold the country hostage in what they call compromise. I saw over twenty video clips of republicans saying over and over again in this election how the potus wanted to take over 700 billion out of medicare and the rmoney, lying ryan, boehnor, cantor promised Americans not to cut it one iota. What a laugh. Beside in the super committee negotiations that led to the so called fiscal cliff, the town crier john boehnor said he got 98% of what he wanted but had to back out(obstruct) because he got teabagged by his own party - fact. The republican teabag taliban own the fiscal cliff and I can't wait until 2014 so we can put the rest of them in the dungheap of history......good riddance!!!!!!

Right Wing - I found this link that will help explain to those like Layton how much money we are talking about.

It is an interesting read and for those of you who want to jump down my throat about doing more research, quit being lazy and do your own. I have work to do.

Jim Spence,

And the 5 proposals you mention include, all of them, to keep the tax breaks for the rich. Ryan's Plan to Ruin America" is included and I've mentioned when confronted in Janesville at one of his town hall meetings the idiot walked out because he couldn't defend his numbers. Republicans have a problem with math. unless it deals with wars!

Obama has not made a plna until now becuse the republicans have signed the Norquist papers and refuse to compromise on anything. Adding the Keystone Pipeline to some 40 Bills trying to get their way even when the people in the states effected don't want the darn thing running through their back yards!

Stubborn pigheaded republicans just like you!

I can't post a link so... Google "Physical Concepts of Money"

Now Obama is asking for unlimited unilateral power to raise the debt ceiling. Why does he want to do that? I thought he had a "balanced approach"? Not to mention that the consolidation of such power in the hands of one individual flies in the face of every thing our Constitution stands for. Mitch McConnell shouldn't be the only one laughing. The whole country should be laughing Obama right out of office. But, unfortunately, we have too many idiots that don't understand the implications of Obama 's proposal.

Walk away Republicans. WALK AWAY.

Let's see how America enjoys the Obama Recession! 51% to 48%? Let's see how those numbers line up two years or fours years from now with 10 percent unemployment. And with larger deficits.

If the GOP walks away, it won't be the "Obama Recession." The American public will be smart enough to know that it was caused by GOP stubborness, just as the American public overwhelmingly blamed the GOP for the debt ceiling debacle that cost us our AAA credit rating. The loss of GOP seats in the Senate and House in 2012 will turn into a rout in 2014.

piegan, at least the democrats want to spend AND tax. Meaning at least attempt to pay for what they spend, as opposed to republicans who only care about spending when they are not in power. Historically, republican administrations have been the ones spending the most, but republicans always seem to have such short memories. Alas...

KingK.

I searched the web. to see about Obama wanting unilateral power to raise the debt ceiling. I found nothing. Please tell me where you found this truth, half truth or lie?

The American public will be smart enough to know that it was caused by GOP stubborness

So do you think the American people are smart enough to understand the meaning of "tax and wasteful spend"? I'm adding the word "wasteful" because that's what it really is. Anyone remember Solyndra?

And if so, do you think Americans would agree to tax and wasteful spend?

I know that the majority of people who voted for Obama don't know how the government works. If they would be asked this simple question and explain how it works I doubt the American people would be side with Obama on this.

They also want a permanent, unlimited debt limit increase – for free. No additional cuts or reforms. Not to mention a host of other, unrelated White House proposals – including even more ‘stimulus’ spending.

Apparently you didn't search very far. Here it is from Reuters.

Obama's opening "fiscal cliff" bid seeks debt limit hike, stimulus

WASHINGTON | Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:21pm EST

(Reuters) - The Obama administration's opening bid on Thursday in negotiations to avert a year-end fiscal crunch included a demand for new stimulus spending and authority to unilaterally raise the U.S. borrowing ceiling, a Republican congressional aide said.

The proposal, made by Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner to congressional Republican leaders on Capitol Hill, was seen as offering little the Republicans could agree to and was greeted with laughter, the aide said.

"We can't move any closer to them because they're not even on our planet," the aide said. "It was not a serious proposal."

Obama and congressional Republicans are returning to the bargaining table to prevent across-the board tax increases and deep spending cuts, the so-called fiscal cliff, from taking effect next year.

The president wants Bush-era tax breaks to be extended for all but the wealthiest earners, but Republicans have balked at tax hikes of any kind.

In the maiden bargaining session, Geithner, the president's lead negotiator, proposed raising tax revenues by $1.6 trillion, congressional aides confirmed. That figure is in line with what Obama has said is necessary to achieve long-term deficit reduction of $4 trillion over 10 years.

The administration also sought at least $50 billion in new economic stimulus spending.

Obama's negotiators also sought the ability to raise the nation's borrowing limit unilaterally. Currently, Congress must approve an increase in the debt ceiling, and it was an impasse over that issue that brought the country perilously close to default in 2011.

The administration's proposal would put off across-the-board spending cuts for a year.
In exchange the administration agreed to make $400 billion in spending cuts to entitlement programs, an aide confirmed.

The White House had no comment on the details of the offer.

"The only thing preventing us from reaching a deal that averts the fiscal cliff and avoids a tax hike on 98 percent of Americans is the refusal of congressional Republicans to ask the very wealthiest individuals to pay higher tax rates," a White House official said.

(Reporting by Steve Holland and Mark Felsenthal)

Wouldn't it be More Productive if Our Elected Leaders Started Working Together as AMERICANS for AMERICANS and AMERICA, instead of just bickering, stalling and posturing for the next election as democrats and republicans! The American People have had it with this unproductive BS! The way that both parties having been operating for years just stinks! Neither party has really been looking out for the best interests of the US Citizens who elect them and who they're supposed to represent. Both parties have sold out the bulk of the American citizens, who they're supposed to represent, by allowing the "out-sourcing" floodgates to open wider and wider without taking any sensible measures to stem the tide.

It shouldn't be all about Democrats or Republicans! It should be about Americans, especially our elected officials, doing the right thing for our country and its citizens. All the single-minded, left versus right, ideological one dimensional bull has got to go!

If Both Parties don't start actually doing something to fix the real problems in our country like "out-sourcing", illegal immigration, the out of control costs of health care insurance and our reliance on foreign fuel by the next election - American citizens may just have to run a nation-wide campaign to vote out every single incumbent elected official from office regardless of party, so that maybe then they'll finally get the message.

IF....the leaks are correct, then Obama and the left is being not only unreasonable but stupid.

If the leaks are NOT true, then this is all not an issue.

Next.

As a fiscal conservative, I really don't care how much they raise taxes, and on whom, as long as they stop spending more than they take in!

If it takes 90% on anyone over a million, down to 20% if you make a dollar year, I don't care. What I do care about is raising taxes with no plan to stop the deficits.

When Bush took office, we had a 5 trillion dollar debt. When he left, 10 trillion! Obama started at 10 trillion, and it's 16 trillion now, and will be over 20 trillion when he leaves.

Our Current GDP is about 13 trillion, growing at an anemic 2%.

When Obama leaves office, our debt to GDP ratio will be where Greece was in 2010, which was the start of their economic collapse.

I feel sorry for the poor fool that becomes our next president.

If the President and Congress don't do something to stop the bleeding now, we are ALL in for major pain. If we don't do it for ourselves, we have to think about our children and grandchildren.

We've had enough class warfare, gender warfare, race warfare, sexuality warfare, and every other divisive tactic we've suffered over the last decade.

We've had enough of the blame game. Bush is no longer president and hasn't been for 4 years. Obama started with a major economic problem, one that couldn't be fixed in 4 years. Now he has one that still can't be fixed in the next four years, but if we don't do something now, it won't be fixable at all.

If the spending continues to exceed revenues, we go bankrupt. End of story.

Raise taxes to whatever it takes, but reduce spending to below what we get in. It's simple mathematics, not brain surgery.

We need our elected officals to Start Protecting American Jobs and do whatever it takes to bring back the jobs they let go. We need leaders who will actually stand up for the American people. Returning private sector jobs to American Citizens will provide income tax revenue to OUR Government versus our government having to pay unemployment benefits to those who would be jobless instead.

Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
Section 7 - Revenue Bills, Legislative Process, Presidential Veto

All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.

Could we try following the Constitution for once? Where does it say that revenue bills can even be proposed by the President or Sec of Treasury?

Boehner, you're a criminal douche for even allowing it.

"Nobody wants to ruin SS, and that should not even be on the table in these talks (has NOTHING to do with the deficit)."

And this proves intelligence in our country is lost.

Nobody want to ruin SS? Really we cut the funding by around 20% and it is going broke.

AND SS comes out of the General fund.

Common Sense 23

As for the rest of your jibberish, let's see. Name ONE of those plans that promotes any kind of fairness into the system while balancing the budget AND paying down the debt

ROTFLMAO!!!!

There you Liberals/Progressives go again, playing your indefensible “fairness” card.

And yes, by the way, you ARE a Liberal. No intelligent, “common sense” Independent would accept this idiocy as an economic plan. You may think you’re an Independent but your roots are set firmly in Liberalism and you don’t even know it.

Once again, I challenge you to tell me what is “fair”? What is a “fair share”? What is this mythical “level playing field”? More importantly, who decides what is fair or a level playing field? Is it you? Is it me? Is it Barrack Hussein? Is it the disconnected massive bureaucracy in Washington that has no clue what Main Street America is going through? Who is this omnipotent, unbiased, arbiter of absolute fairness?

The answer is simple, if you use common sense. Fair is where everyone pays the same amount in taxes. Make it 10%, 20%, 30% or whatever functional amount you want. THAT is the only “fair” way to do anything. The minute you start convoluting it with, “the rich should pay more”, you have abandoned fairness and made it a purely emotional issue. This is what Liberalism/Progressivism does to you. A true Independent sees that, you don’t.

AT least EVERY PLAN that Obama has offered was not only paid for BUT paid didn't add to the debt.

OK, show it to me. Show me the plan in writing. Like I said, I can show you all the Republican and Independent plans in writing. Give me a link. Show me the proof of this wonderful plan. You can’t, because it doesn’t exist. It’s just more smoke and mirrors from Barrack Hussein and his incompetence.

Now, even IF there is some mysterious “Obama Plan”, why won’t Hairy Reed and the Democrats sit down and compromise? Why is everything happening behind closed doors? I thought your boy-toy Barrack said he was going to have the most transparent administration. Because he has NO PLAN, that’s why. And you and the rest of the Liberal cabal know it. Yet you continue to defend him.

Name ONE Republican that was willing to put Country before Party two years ago?

We had 5 plans by Republicans that put country before party.

Once again, show me yours!

Good luck Spanky.

AtlasWillShrug,

I agree with you. The problem is that in order for a bill to pass, it must be approved by the Senate and signed by the President.

So far, almost every bill proposed by the Congress is not even reviewed by the Senate. This means that the Democrats have to propose a plan that they will accept.

Obama is not going to reach across the aisle. Its his way or the highway. The President is going to take us over the fiscal cliff again. Mark my words. All his talk about working together is bullsh*t.

If the Republicans want cuts then let us know what they are. They just want the President to give them so they can blame him for cuts (remember the Medicare cuts Republicans tried to hang around the President's neck).

The Republicans want to limit income tax deductions but that's going to happen anyway. It's known as the Pease provision, had been law thru 2010, went away in 2011 and 2012 (and is then set to come back in 2013). This means the Republicans wouldn't have any to give in on any tax increase at all.

The Republicans want entitlement cuts but won't say which cuts to make.

If the Republicans want to play games, the Democrats can play too.

BTW, if we do go over the "cliff" (note that the ONLY provision going away on 1/1/13 is the 2% payroll tax holiday), the Republicans are going to be blamed.

Here are the only questions,

Did President Obama make the proposal?

Is it a good proposal?

Will it take care of the problem?

If the answer is No it is laughable.

bubba, what exactly have the Republicans proposed?

I don't care at this point, they are laughable, and a joke, but this is not an answer to my question. They need to quit acting like little children and start acting like grownups! This is not an I'm right and your wrong debate.

And you haven't answered my question......tick,tick,tick

Nothing and they are wrong for it and I don't support them in that! What I have heard them talk about is CRAP!! I'm registered REP!

AtlasWillShrug

ANYONE in Congress can author and present a bill. Legislation Constitutionally begins in Congress. In the House ANY member, majority or minority, can introduce a Bill, it is dropped in a box called a hopper. In the Senate, after being recognized by the presiding officer and announcing the bill's introduction, ANY member can introduce a Bill.

However, Bills dealing with appropriations (money) can ONLY originate from the House. Article 1, Section 7 restricts this. The Bill is labeled and then goes to committee for study. After study, hearings or if needed sending the Bill to a subcommittee, it is voted on. Then it is reported to the floor of the Senate or House and calendared for action. Debate is given and vote to either pass it or reject it. Most Bills never pass committee. Once a Bill passes it must be exactly worded and setup. If not, a conference committee is created to finalize the wording. It then returns to both Houses for a revote. The Bill is then sent to the president. He can sign it, veto it or do nothing (this is called a pocket veto if Congress is not in session for 10 days). If he vetoes, it goes back and can be overridden by a two-thirds majority in both Houses. It then becomes law. The president has 10 days to veto or sign it.

You or I can offer legislation. We can't introduce it. It has to go through a member of Congress. The president can ALSO offer legislation but he CAN'T introduce it. It must go through a member of Congress also. But the president must begin the budgetary process.

The whole second paragraph has been ignored by Hairy Reed and the Democrats. Tell me the last time the Democrats have taken any of the Bills offered by the Republicans and put it through the Constitutionally mandated process of compromise which requires study, committee, hearings or subcommittee?

NEVER!!!!

It’s either been “dead on arrival” or “tabled” before anyone even read it!

It seems your boy-toy Hairy Reed is the real “criminal douche”, as you so eloquently stated.

But I’m sure you and the rest of your Liberal cabal will just “shrug” at Constitutional procedure, or just keep trampling it like you have for decades.

As your hero John Galt warned, your dysfunctional ideology of more government is “stopping the motor of the world”. Statism is the disease that afflicts you and your irrational platform.

I have a question for all you liberals. do you live in the same country as I ? Do you people believe that the country we live in, that "we", includes you, can sustain the continued increase in debt and fiscal deficit much longer? Unless you all live off the government, you will also have to repay this debt. Why are you vilifying the republicans for trying to slow down this out of control spending by Obama? Obama's budget deficit, that is the amount he spends over and above what taxpayers are now paying into the treasury, is one and a half trillion dollars per year. That will add another six trillion dollars to the debt in the next four years. He has offered to cut four hundred billion over the next ten years.Are there any of you that can do basic math? Obama said that it's about math. Can any of you show me how his math makes sense? Before you all spout off and call me stupid and an idiot, get your calculator out and input some of his numbers and then call me stupid. You all sound like you are not thinking past the next five minutes. If I am wrong, show me how you come to that conclusion.

Stop TicK Tick, Tick

I'm quite sure the President approved of the proposal. Obviously, the President doesn't want any cuts. He's been willing to compromise, but he's not going to offer them up because it's Republicans that have insisted on them without spelling out anything other than a Premium Support Plan for medicare (which Romney ran on and got rejected), and, as I said earlier, the Republicans will hang this around the President's neck come the next election.

What they need to do is work out a solution behind closed doors, without calling on each other to come up with cuts, and come out TOGETHER with the solution.

It's really the Republicans who have been playing games.

h engbers,

You ask the same question I ask myself about whether your right wing nut republicans, that I used to be, are living in the same country. Where the H were you when bush started the $4,000,000,000,000 lost and wasted wars? You seem to forget you are living in a country that you are the minority and you act like you are the majority. It seems the last election proved you wrong. Voters voted to increase taxes on the rich, make some spending cuts, mostly in defense I hope, and to compromise.!

Democrats can be just plain stupid drunk on their own bs....so what the Democrats won the presidency, it in no way means everyone else has to shut up and move out....anyone who even suggests this should be held as a terrorist attempting to destroy a two party system. The left won, it really does not mean crap! Deflate your heads and come back to earth...you probably have family that misses you...

The republicons have groups they are trying to protect at all costs. The 1%ers and the Military/Industrial Complex. Both groups add no value to our economy. Even unemployment insurance stimulates the economy more and creats more jobs than they do.

That is where the taxes and cuts will be coming from after you republicons get run over your fiscal cliff.

It's over Grover.

The only thing "unreasonable" and "unbalanced" in this GOTP manufactured issue which really is a nonissue is the GOTP. Simple fixy on this:

Raise taxes on the top 2%, increase the income ceiling on Social Security, discontinue the corporate welfare and stop funding programs and items the military doesn't want or need and. There. Done.

But, since the petulant children of the GOTP insist on stamp their collective feet and holding their collective breath, this is simply another nail in the coffin of the GOTP ... toodles ... and don't let the door hit ya where your good lord split ya ...

I would be all for just letting President Obama have what he wants, if we had a media that would actually put complete responsibility on the Democrats after the economy fails.

Why is everyone blames Bush and the republicians for this mess, The simpke facts here is that Washingting for more the 50 years has spent more then they make and it is finally catching up. This Big issue here is most Democrats see money and spent on incentives that most of the time DO NOT WORK long term and the republicans give there old cronies Tax breaks and that doesn't help small business and that is where most of the jobs get created.

So I say FIRE THEM ALL, Nobama, Romney, All Democrats and Republicans both parties have made a mess of america. AND NO to the TEA PARTY...

Stop, really only the Republicans have been playing games? Please open your eye and get your democratic head out of President Obama's AZZ. If you did than the American people might just finally stand up and make these people do what is right for US. If we give the President what he wants and it fails, what are you and the rest of his die hard supporters going to do say I'm sorry my bad.

Jo Ann-666954

The American public will be smart enough to know that it was caused by GOP stubborness

So do you think the American people are smart enough to understand the meaning of "tax and wasteful spend"? I'm adding the word "wasteful" because that's what it really is. Anyone remember Solyndra?

Saw a statistic somewhere that the failure rate of green start ups in the last 5 years who received federal grants was lower than the company turn arounds (vis a vis "failure") that Bain executed while Romney was there.

So yes - you look silly.

Jay12456

Why is everyone blames Bush and the republicians for this mess, The simpke facts here is that Washingting for more the 50 years has spent more then they make and it is finally catching up. This Big issue here is most Democrats see money and spent on incentives that most of the time DO NOT WORK long term and the republicans give there old cronies Tax breaks and that doesn't help small business and that is where most of the jobs get created.

Actually democrats tax and spend - which is what they do. As opposed to republicans that spend and cut taxes.

For the self proclaimed fiscal professionals that you clowns claim to be - you certainly fail at basic arithmetic.

Jim Spence-

You seem to be confused. I am FAR from being a liberal, let alone a statist. My point is that Boehner is allowing proposals instead of saying, "We, in the House, will put forth bills for raising revenue and then we will follow the remainder of the process."

Should the Senate not put it up for vote, recommend amendments, etc., then let it die there. We will go off the so-called cliff and eventually the fed gov't will shrink. But, this won't happen. They will play the game back and forth, both sides will claim victory and pass something at the last minute, and the taxpayer will be the loser.

Having been a Young Republican many years ago, you don't know how much I now HATE the F ing Party of No right now! Totally out of touch with reality and the fact that they have made conservatives like Nixon, Goldwater and Reagan look like LIBERTALS by their extremes of today!

Stop, really only the Republicans have been playing games? Please open your eye and get your democratic head out of President Obama's AZZ. If you did than the American people might just finally stand up and make these people do what is right for US.

Well Bubba, what IS right for US?

When I hear the GOP start talking about corporate entitlements then I'll start to listen to them bitch about citizen entitlements PAID for by citizen taxes. Until then they should just STFU and understand that the citizen taxpayers have already voted on this.....and the GOP lost miserably.

AtlasWillShrug

I apologize for my abruptness and vitriol.

It just gets so tiring listening to the indoctrinated unwashed masses here and other statist supporting sites about their typical irrational solutions.

As far as your comment,,,,

and the taxpayer will be the loser.

The taxpayer already is the loser, every taxpayer. Liberal/Progressives have this convoluted belief that the money, our money, the government can just be printed or borrowed into infinity. Never has our government shown it can reduce the National Debt completely.

To believe that the tax increases will just be on the upper 2% and magically fix everything is the level of ignorance most Americans exhibit regarding the economy. Today it will be the "thousandaires" at $200,000/$250,000, tomorrow it will be the middle class.

No realistic person can argue this.

from a poster :" I'm an Independent and NOT a liberal."

pretty sure an "independent" is just a liberal who is afraid to admit it , ya , that's about right

@jim Spence & atlas shrugged

You two should get over yourselves. Indoctrinated unwashed masses.....you sound ike the @!$%# who just beat his wife up and then tells her if only she would learn to shut her mouth.

With that said no one thinks that all we have to do is print more money or borrow infinitely. The debt we're dealing with are directly due to the convoluted policies of the right that ensure the continued health of the defense industry and the ultra wealthy. Case in point....you guys whine like little bitches about tax cuts that should have expired 2 years ago, and rather than recognize that EVERY taxpayer benefits from the proposed bill that keeps rates lower up to 250k, you would rather hold out for lower rates for those exceeding that first 250k, for people that don't need it, regardless of the damage it may cause the economy. Your arguments are both morally and intellectually bankrupt and your snarky arrogance illustrates the depth of you azzholiness.

Aww JimSpence, There you go again. When you can't defend yourself you go with the name calling and trying to insult those that clearly can see both sides of the table. You're better than this. I know you are. Let's see the two plans was the President's budget plan AND his job's bill. I'm sure you seen him with both plans in hand numerous times and to prove they weren't "smoke and mirrors" he even presented both of them to Congress and to add insult to injury even FOXNEWS had a copy of BOTH bills (Hainity and Bill O'Reilly) and started breaking down how they were so grossly unfair to the small business owners(those top 2%) but I guess you miss those episodes. But there's hope for you yet, I can assure you I can look up AND see both of his proposals faster than I can find any of the Republicans plans on the Internet. I'm fairly confident even someone with your mentality can look them up with just a lil query.

As far as fairness is concerned, I have an opinion as to what I consider to be fair but to answer you question, that's up to the individual that's why we have this great thing in our country called "compromise". No do I believe what the administration put out was fair an balanced? NO, BUT it is a good starting point, and I'm still waiting for the Republicans to present their idea for handling the so called "fiscal cliff". Speaking of which, haven't you found it a bit ironic that they ALWAYS wait for the President to show his hand before they decide to introduce something after they of course accuse the President of "playing politics"?

As for me, I've already experienced my side of "fairness" as when I retired from the Military in '09, Then President Obama froze all government pay for 2 years in order to preserve spending limits which meant that after serving my country for 20 years, I wouldn't see an annual raise in my retirement check all the while the big banks that took money from the Government because they were "too big to fail" were handing out Golden Parachutes to fired CEO's and COO's and prices soared. Would YOU consider that fair? Although I didn't like it, I didn't complain as I knew it was a small sacrifice to make for the good of the economy. Now to your other point, If you had half a brain, you would know that you can't just cut your way to balance a budget as you have to generate some kind of revenue to balance everything out. As far as I am concerned, I am no where as well off as others BUT I won't mind letting all the tax cuts expire for everyone AS LONG AS we freeze spending at their current levels for at least 4 years, again whatever it takes to get this country out of the hole that was 12 years in the making. Another example of fairness was the Grand Bargain that Boehner and Obama hashed out that Boehner couldn't sell because it had tax increases on the those that made more than $500,000.

Now to be FAIR, I can understand your point about everyone paying the same percentage in taxes, the only problem with that is that you STILL shift the burden of the weight on the middle class and poor when you look at the numbers then again any good accountant would tell you that. But since you dodged my question, I'll asked again WHICH of those 5 "fine" republican plans do anything that will balance the budget and reduce the national debt. As you keep telling me "Show me, I dare you".

I can understand your frustration and all but do me a favor, before you come at me with utter nonsense, stop, look, listen and most importantly READ more than one article and visit more than one site like I do. When you are able to do that and see both sides of the spectrum, the MAYBE you can move over a lil to the left toward the center and make an "informative" opinion.

Notice how serious Obama is about the fiscal cliff -- He went on a 20 day vacation to Hawaii.

When is Congress and the President going to really address taxes, spending and deficit? So far it has just been grandstanding with no real solutions.

Real solution would eliminate the deficit within 5 years by getting rid of tax loop holes and reducing spending.