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Subscribe to RSSPresident Obama expressed optimism in a “framework” for deficit reduction being worked out before Washington disperses for the holidays as he urged Congress to act quickly and extend tax cuts for 98 percent of Americans.
“I believe that both parties can agree on a framework that does that in the coming weeks. In fact, my hope is to get this done before Christmas,” he said, flanked by people who the White House said responded to emails asking them how a preserved lower tax rate would help them.
President Obama is pushing a plan to extend the Bush tax rates for everyone making less than $250,000 and let taxes go up for everyone else. But House Republicans are pushing spending cuts that would supplement the tax hikes. With both sides pressuring one another, a compromise has yet to be reached. NBC's Chuck Todd reports.
He said an immediate extension of tax cuts for those Americans would allow Democrats and Republicans to focus on long-term deficit reduction.
“Families and small businesses would therefore be able to enjoy some peace of mind heading into Christmas and heading into the New Year. And it would give us more time than next year to work together on a comprehensive plan to bring down our deficits.”
He also alluded to recent statements by Senate and House Republicans expressing a willingness to consider previously non-negotiable positions, including GOP Rep. Tom Cole’s statement yesterday that Republicans should in fact deal with tax cuts for the wealthiest earners separately from those Democrats want to extend now.
“I'm glad to see, if you've been reading the papers lately, that more and more Republicans in Congress seem to be agreeing with this idea that we should have a balanced approach,” Obama said.
But House Speaker John Boehner Wednesday firmly rejected Cole’s suggestion and reiterated his position that Republicans are willing to consider new revenue but oppose a hike in any income tax rates.
Chip Somodevilla / Getty Images
President Barack Obama greets middle class people who joined him on stage after he delivered remarks about extending tax cuts for middle class people during an event in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building November 28, 2012 in Washington, DC.
The president’s event, held in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building’s South Court Auditorium, was meant to highlight a new social media campaign intended to get Americans vocal about what keeping an extra $2,000 on their paycheck would mean – similarly to what the White House did to encourage Americans to get involved over
The catchphrase for the new campaign? “My2K,” or #My2K for those on Twitter.
“Tweet using the hashtag My2K or email, you know, post it on -- on a member of Congress' Facebook wall. Do what it takes to communicate a sense of urgency. We don't have a lot of time here. We've got a few weeks to get this thing done,” Obama said.
“It's too important for Washington to screw this up,” he continued.
Leave a Comment:
President Obama...DO NOT cave-in to the TeaPeople demands!
Amen Chilled, The President won the election with the promise to raise taxes on the top 2%. In this case he has the republicans boxed in, and if they don't get behind then, let them the republicans explain to 98% of the people that their taxes are going up.
2014 will be ugly for the GOP & tea people, if they don't get on board.
Raise the tax on the top 2 percent gets you 4-8 days of federal spending money. Where does the rest come from?
Go back to the rates in effect in 2000 and bite the bullet now.
Exactly JOB1.
We've all seen this before. The President is optimistic, reaches across the aisle to reach compromise and receives nothing but grief for doing so, as the other side agrees with nothing......
Boehner saying he got 95% or was it 98% of what he wanted.......
2014 we've gotta get rid of the GOP!
The left doesn't care kamo, it's all about making people feel good:
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2012/11/27/buffett_tax_hikes_on_rich_would_raise_the_morale_of_the_middle_class.html
chilled
How about we take 100 percent of the total wealth of the Fourtune 500 companies. That will allow the goverment to run for 6-8 months. Then what? You already took the total wealth from A now where do you go to connect the dots to get to B?
Great plan Mr Prez., I mean 4-8 days of income will come in if you keep those over 250k at a higher tax rate. Again where does the rest come from?
White Collar Auto
It is very sad indeed
Right there with you on that, Chilled! I hope that O knows something that we don't because as far as Boehner is concerned he has changed his attitude AGAIN! Boy, this man sure bows to the Sh!t for brains tea party people doesn't he? This man is no leader!
And I see there is the usual excrement on here griping that the president isn't doing his job. Get a friggin life! You people are beyond nauseating in your hatred of this president. We know it is really foreign to most of you that we have a president who actually leads this country as opposed to the past president, George W. Bush(POS), who @!$%#ed this country over and then laughed it all the way to his country club.
kamo,
Its 8½ days and accounts for a 2.3% reduction in deficit spending. You may not believe that is much but it is $900 billion over the 10 year horizon and adds to the $100 billion already cut in 2011 for FY2012 (and beyond) and is less than ¼ of the $4 trillion reduction that our President has put on the table.
kamo, guess you're a member of the millionaire/billionaires club.....good for you. Not so good for the rest (98%).
kamo
Raise the tax on the top 2 percent gets you 4-8 days of federal spending money. Where does the rest come from?
=============
This is the silliest talking point ever. PBS, Planned Parenthood, the Arts...these budgets wouldn't exactly be running the Gov for years on end, but I don't recall your logic being applied when discussions about them were happening.
Job1
LOL already looking to blame others then blame Obama...
Before you say it I know it is because he is black right?
Thats like the Black guy sitting there with a gun and a dead person I did not do it you are blaming me because I am black...
Ugh get over the black thing please........
chilled - millionaires and billionaires with a conscience have no problem with paying more taxes. The only ones complaining are the sniveling dolts on the far right!
lasertroll - yours is perhaps the most demented mind of the day! Congratulations I'm sure it's the only prize you'll EVER win!
Forbes magazine released its annual list of the top 400 wealthy on Wednesday, and the combined net worth jumped 13% to $1.7 trillion in 2012, up from $1.5 trillion in 2011.
Not bad during a recession under a socialist.
It's amazing AlaskaGirl, that the GOP/TP is able to convince their base to believe in policies that ultimately hurt them personally/financially.......but of course their base consists of "corporations are people too"!
@ss...........that post by lasertroll made no sense at all......
He said an immediate extension of tax cuts for those Americans would allow Democrats and Republicans to focus on long-term deficit reduction.
"Families and small businesses would therefore be able to enjoy some peace of mind heading into Christmas and heading into the New Year. And it would give us more time than next year to work together on a comprehensive plan to bring down our deficits."
______________________________________________
Here's my plan which MORE than meets the critertia Barry set above, and could easily be done before Christmas:
Lefty liberals are claiming there's not time to properly consider spending cuts in the lame duck period. Fine. The House Republicans' should be very "gracious", and, in the spirit of bipartisanship, provide the Dems time to "properly consider spending cuts" by passing a short term extension of the existing tax law for whatever amount of time the Dems specify. Then send the bill over to the Senate who can pass it or not, and if passed, Barry can veto it or not. If the Dems fail to pass or sign it, the blame is clearly where it belongs: on the lefty liberal Dems.
If passed by the Senate and signed by Barry, the middle class is protected from any tax increases due to the expiration of the Bush-Obama tax cuts on 12/31/12 and the Dems get whatever time they want to "properly consider spending cuts". The only goal not met by this plan is the lefty liberal blood-lust for punishing the "rich" by raising their taxes while trying to pull a fast one by not ever acting on any spending cuts.
Gee, that's too bad for the lefty liberals. But, it's good for the American people. Country before party.
chilled, Job1,
There is no mandate. Boerhner has as much of a mandate.
Obama had what, 52%, to Romney's 48% - give or take.
Of the 52%, there were a number of African Americans who voted for Obama solely because he is black - I didn't say all, I said a number of. There were, probably significantly more, who voted for Obama because they were afraid that Romney/Ryan would do away with Roe Vs Wade, and there were a number who voted for Obama because they wanted to keep Obamacare.
Yes, Obama won. He did not win Solely because he wants to tax the top 2% higher. That was just one topic.
Is Obama claiming a mandate for manned spaceflights to mars because maybe he was in favor of this and Romney wasn't? (yes I made this part up)
Boehner is the speaker of the house. He was the speaker. He ran on - among other things - not raising taxes on anyone -
So, again, I ask, Why doesn't Boehner have a mandate to not raise taxes?
I would like to know what compromise Obama has made. It seems to me he is asking for something without giving anything in return. That's not a compromise.
@Dennis
$900 Billion over a 10 year period???....so in 10 years time we will almost be able to cover the $1 Trillion dollar annual deficit that our government currently allows. I hope you don't run a business and if you do I feel sorry for your future ex-employees.
This is why I don't think that Obama is serious about the fiscal cliff...at least not at this time. The increased revenue from raising taxes on the top 2% is a drop in the bucket compared to what needs to be done. All tax rates should be increased across the board to bring us back to the Clinton era rates and deductions need to be limited on top of that. The only way to reduce the deficit is to bring in more than you spend and if the Democrats and Obama are not willing to reduce spending then the only alternative is to bring in more money through taxation. Welcome to the new America......
Will Obama order for the slain Woods a dishonorable discharge and revocation of his pension to his family for having directly disobeyed the president's order to stand down at Benghazi?
bcwc: that's communist, socialist, facist, Kenyan born, Muslim... right ?
Anyone notice the Congressional Research Service report on tax rates "http://graphics8.nytimes.com/news/business/0915taxesandeconomy.pdf" was forced to be withdrawn by Republicans who didn't like the results...i.e. it denies everything the GOP stands for on taxes.
SeekingSanity
Yeah the truth hurts don't it..
Republicans are offering Tax Revenue increases. Capping deductions at 50k gets more tax revenue than raising rates according to the Tax Policy Center.
Liberals are refusing to touch entitlements.
Liberals are asking for increases to baseline budgets.
Liberals are offering nothing....
Yet liberals claim the GOP isn't compromising?
What a joke.
@skeptical12345.....
Two years Boehner ran on "Where are the jobs".....what happened to that which he used over and over?
I like the mars spaceflight thingy.....Maybe Gingrich can be in charge, since he expressed a desire for a moon colony.
Obama ordered a 6% cost of living increase in pay last year for his 450+ White House staff and butlers who were already earning $240K. Why not reduce their pay to $80K and they better be glad they got a job?
chilled
What did you not understand?
I put the black thing up because that is the only resonse I get from DEMS..
Soo I jumbed in before you could say it..
The lumping of so many bits (entitlement, loopholes, taxes, etc) is a serious issue with these bills but I don't think reform needs to be included. Separately we can begin to sort out the tax codes...keeping rates low for the <1% and taxing the high earners can still be possible as a trial bases instead of a padlock on the first go...that data is necessary and can help direct our attention to the proper areas that need addressing. So with this brief extension on the <1% and a large tax hike on the wealthy for now could provide exactly what the country needs to understand the outcome....
Chilled,
You still didn't answer the question though.
Why doesn't Boehner have a mandate to not raise taxes?
I still want to see the 47% who pay no income tax pay their fair share. No? Well, tell me what's unfair about it.
scott- you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you! The troll part of your moniker is apt. You and others on this site prove daily there is no sanity to be found in the Republican party. Oh, and dimwit - it has already been debunked over and over again that the President asked ANYONE to stand down in Benghazi! Try keeping up!
Boehner didn't get any mandate because he wasn't elected by the entire country - just his constituents - who he put to the side when he signed a pledge to Grover Norquist.
Spider, your ignorance is overwhelming. Over the 47% dumb Mitt referred to, many are retired - already paid their taxes on their earnings; many are veterans who have paid dearly; many are the working poor who don't make enough to live - but you'd take what little they have - even though they pay taxes on everything they buy. You're totally ridiculous but a good little ignorant Republican. But, the GOP likes their supporters dumb and dumber. You're the perfect fit!
SarcasmAnyone?
Actually that is the America of old that many Republicans pine for but somehow forget the much higher taxation rates. I recall the US being quite prosperous with a thriving middle class and wars that were paid for.
Just drive the car off the cliff and get it over with !!!!!
Other wise nothing will be done except kick the can down the road again.
exactly, I didn't find work this year, but educated myself in the mean time, I did not pay taxes, no work, but come February when I file my taxes, you guys will cut me a handsome check.....why are you so generous when I did nothing??
roadlesstraveled - if you didn't work, you won't file an income tax filing and you WON'T GET A CHECK. You probably should get a little more education - it didn't take!
The bottom line the top 2% must have their taxes raised. It's a past due bill. Also, Willard will have to pay 24% more. Don't worry these folks won't starve to death.
What a Great start!
Here is for all who thinks Obama walks on water. Jan 1 will come and go and no deal will be past or signed. All the Bush tax cuts will go away and all you Obama followers will be paying more in taxes, love to see that. Obama will blame the GOP for standing fast on to increase for the top 2 or 3 percent. But Obama has not spent enough time in Washington to deal with the spending cuts and if you don't have spend cuts along with the increase in taxes you have nothing . We don't have a tax problem we have a spending problem but but you fools out their who follow Obama and believe every word that come s out of his mouth, don't see the real picture and that's just what he wants.
Now in a few months he will come out with his own tax cuts and only for the middle class and everyone will stand up and shout out oh what a great leader we have. But we still will not have spending cuts, so when the eight days worth of taxes that the rich will give runs out, what do we do for the other 357 days of 2013?
So all you fools that voted for this enjoy every minute of it you got what you paid for. When entitlements go belly up there go's your 47% thank god for that.
Obama has zero interest in cutting spending, paying down the debt, reforming entitlements or creating wealth for our country.
He wants income equality, equal outcomes for all, utopia!!!
He's the worst President for our country at the worst time.
I voted for Obama this year but did not realize he seeked to control the internet....
How many of you heard about this?????
President Barack Obama signed an executive order last week that could give the U.S. government control over the Internet.
With the wordy title "Assignment of National Security and Emergency Preparedness Communications Functions," this order was designed to empower certain governmental agencies with control over telecommunications and the Web during natural disasters and security emergencies.
According to The Verge, critics of the order are concerned with Section 5.2, which is a lengthy part outlining how telecommunications and the Internet are controlled. It states that the Secretary of Homeland Security will "oversee the development, testing, implementation, and sustainment" of national security and emergency preparedness measures on all systems, including private "non-military communications networks." According to The Verge, critics say this gives Obama the on/off switch to the Web.1
1. 06/10/2012, http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57469950-93/obama-signs-order-outlining-emergency-internet-control/
Here's a plan. Everyone gets expiration of Bush tax cuts and Obama estate tax breaks. The first $20K for individual returns and $30k on joint returns of taxable income is exempt of any tax. Taxable income in excess of those amounts will be taxed 5% higher than in 2011 for all tax payers.
Incentive to not lay off existing workers, and to make new hires: Identify on Schedule C, etc., under costs of doing business, salaries paid during the course of business multiplied x 1.1. For growth hires' salaries multiply x 1.5 the first year.
Cap pensions of all government employees, top down, at the national average for pensions received by all Americans.
there isn"t an emergency in the solar system that should allow for a government to take over the internet!!!!!
Where do these right wingers get their education? Most don't even understand basic math.
Elections Have Consequences, Mr President do not start out in the middle and go over to the right to make a deal the deal to be made is at center left, If the GOP does not agree lets go off the cliff and make the GOP say no to tax breaks for 100% of Americans on the 1st $250,000 . Dare them to vote No. Let the military reductions begin starting in GOP Controlled Territories, Lay Off workers in McConnell, Boner,Cantor districts. They will cave in like mindless Drunks
But deductions were already capped for upper-income taxpayers until 2011.
What's better than reinstating a rule that won't do anything different from prior law.
Got to love the Republican tricks.
@Seeking Sanity #1.33, There you go again, shooting off your mouth about tax law ! Stick to something you know like screwing people with mortgage refinance fees, because you sure as HELL demonstrate your lack of knowledge with taxation laws!
Apparently, you have never heard of the Earned Income Credit. A taxpayer is INDEED able to pay NO TAXES at all and GET A CHECK back from the government. Filing a tax return thus can be very beneficial to them ... nothing paid in, REFUND from Uncle Sam ! Some "tax softwares" will handle this almost automatically.
SIMON JOHNSON: If you go over the cliff in a disorganized way, with mass amount of political confrontation, that could be very bad for us and absolutely -- and much worse for the world. We need to make some fiscal adjustments.
Some of those things include higher revenue and bringing spending under control. So, I'm in favor of that, but charging off a cliff as we struggle at each other's throats, very bad.
PAUL SOLMAN: Very bad, perhaps, but not, as things now stand, impossible to imagine.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/business/july-dec12/makingsense_11-27.html
We wouldn't be facing a fiscal cliff if Obama new how to lead and would have worked with Congress to produce a realistic budget...
The fraud in the white house is certainly a slave to his ideology. His insistence on that tax hike for those that he characterizes as "the wealthy" despite the financial reality that the increased revenue generated would amount to a mere pittance.
He's either mathematically challenged or ideologically devious hoping his dreg followers will think this will actually resolve anything. This should be evident by his "deficit reduction" rhetoric which means in its best case scenario continuing to run up the debt, but at a somewhat slower pace. That's what he calls deficit reduction.
Referring to the GOP, Obama says: "I'm glad to see, if you've been reading the papers lately…"
As if anyone forgot the media is nothing more than a propaganda shill for Obama and his socialist cronies.
The end result of all this is that s spurious deal will be reached that only serves to push this so-called fiscal cliff farther down the road by perhaps a year or two thus allowing Obama to continue his maniacal spending. After all, his goal at the end of this term is 21 trillion in debt.
When this deal is reached, we will than be subjected to the rhetoric from the incompetent fraud in the white house and the idiot house speaker Boehner slobbering over how historic this moment is, etc.
Ironically, when everything comes crashing down, it will be the gullible fools that supported Obama that will suffer the most.
Where's the vomitorium?
Apparently, you have never heard of the Earned Income Credit. A taxpayer is INDEED able to pay NO TAXES at all and GET A CHECK back from the government. Filing a tax return thus can be very beneficial to them ... nothing paid in, REFUND from Uncle Sam ! Some "tax softwares" will handle this almost automatically.
Preview of 2012 Tax Year
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Evidently, there is a little confusion about what exactly the EARNED INCOME CREDIT is. FYI;
Earned Income and adjusted gross income (AGI) must each be less than:
Tax Year 2012 maximum credit:
Investment income must be $3,200 or less for the year.
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/Preview-of-2012-EITC-Income-Limits,-Maximum-Credit--Amounts-and-Tax-Law-Updates
So, the government needs a budget to operate? Obviously not, since it continues to operate. Just shows how inane your remark is.
Allenjames, just to let you know there are automatic spending cuts too on Jan 1.
Maybe you want to re-think your predictions.
@allenjames...
Truth is that many of the 98% are willing to have their taxes go up if it means that the top 2% share more of the burden. What does that tell you? Obviously nothing.
We WANT the Bush tax cuts to expire. Don't you get it? Then, when the Republicans continue to block middle-class tax relief, they are finished...for good! That's how this plays out if the Republicans keep up their horse$hit.
Bring it on my brother, bring it on...
Republicans, maybe you forgot but you are there to represent the many over the wants of a few. Drop the pledge or kiss your job goodby in 2014. I will bust my gut to get you people out of office once and for all.
Caligula, I hate to burst your little "bubble" but Republicans have ALREADY passed extension of the "Bush Tax Cuts" in the House ...... back BEFORE the elections genius ! So, if the Bush Tax Cuts go down in flames now, it is on the Democrats ! But in reality, Obama WANTS the Bush Tax Cuts to expire .... that is why his extension was only good until shortly after the elctions !! He fooled you libs into swallowing his rhetoric !!
And dangerfield, a nice little distraction you threw in at #1.47 .... but the fact remains Seeking Sanity's post at #1.33 is just plain wrong. I handle a return for an individual every year who pays NO FEDERAL INCOME TAX .... but gets a check back from the government.
Fact of the matter is that Mr. Obama is not willing to confront the major problems we face, so any "framework" will simply be a means of kicking the can down the road once more. Where are the spending cuts you said we need to implement, Mr. Obama? And even your most ardent supporters. like Chuck Schumer and Paul Krugman, agree that your approach to China's currency manipulation is costing US jobs. Get ready for 4 more years of stagnation or worse.
which one? The allegiance? the pledge of fiscal responsibility? Throw me a bone here, you werent very specific.
"We've all seen this before. The President is optimistic, reaches across the aisle to reach compromise and receives nothing but grief for doing so, as the other side agrees with nothin"
Wait, wait wait, when did the President ever say he was going to compromise?
This American taxpayer is PESSIMISTIC about ANY Progressive spending cuts.
Wait a minute.....Mr. Obama's agenda:
Tax + Spend + Redistribute and a lot of REGULATIONS added.
jim - well you've shown that you are clearly NO CPA. In order to file for the Earned Income Tax Credit - you must have worked and had someone pay you!.
From the IRS website:
Earned income includes all the taxable income and wages you get from working.
There are two ways to get earned income:
Taxable earned income includes:
So little jimmy - you're a damned liar. You can't get an Earned Income Credit if you didn't EARN ANY INCOME! Oh and I called my CPA to actually make sure I was getting it right. When I read him what you wrote I thought he would NEVER stop laughing!
So, we know you're not a CPA.
Clearly if you're pretending to be anyone's CPA you are totally screwing them!!!!
dangerfield - I understand the Earned Income Credit - but the poster said he didn't work AT ALL and is still getting a refund on his tax return - which isn't true!
Funny how the rt wingers only believe President Obama walks on water....they are so obsessed and talk about it all the time...!
wow - little jimmy got his hat handed to him over his stupidity about the Earned Income Credit and now he seems to have shut up - about the tax thingy anyway. I guess we KNOW he's no CPA!
I think the fiscal cliff is nothing compared to the disaster, comparable to going over the falls in a barrel, which we face when the sheer ignorance of the right wing pushes us beyond the limits of reasonable choice. As a country which some consider a model of democracy for, by, and of the people we are staring into an abyss of chaos beyond imagining if we fail to reach some fair and just accord in our governing process.
Our political system has degenerated into a farce where a minority of elected fools, bound by an ideology that has been discredited beyond any degree of commonsense, can and will subvert, sabotage, and stymie every reasonable effort to move us away from the edge of the precipice.
Some say let it happen. It will teach us a lesson. How incredibly stupid is that? If your child is leaning too far over the edge of a rushing stream, would you allow him or her to fall in just to teach a lesson? Of course not. Neither should we as a nation allow foolish leaders take us over the brink.
John Boehner and his gang of fools are about to do that just that. President Obama has made a fair and reasonable proposal to draw back from an unwise and dangerous course of events. It doesn't immediately solve all the problems, but it sets apart the threat of increased taxes on all but 2% of the population. In fact, it offers some relief to everybody, leaving only incomes above $250,000 vulnerable to a small increase in rates. What's wrong with that? In my opinion, nothing.
But Boehner says, NO. It is hard to comprehend such mindless stupidity in the presence of such vast responsibility. He is determined to go over the falls in his tiny barrel made of ego, and take the nation along with him.
FRAMEWORK?
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!
And just what is this mythical framework Barrack Hussein?
Show me the plan. Show the American people the plan.
You were resplendent in your praise of Ronald Reagan last year when you stated how he led the nation "through an extremely difficult period, with economic hardship at home and very real threats beyond our borders." You were right in claiming he was willing to compromise on taxes as compared to the intransigence of today’s GOP. Unfortunately you failed, as is your tendency, to tell the true story.
In 1981, Reagans plan for revitalizing the economy was a simple 4 step process:
1. Reduce tax rates across the board.
2. Decrease unnecessary regulations.
3. Work with the Federal Reserve to maintain stable monetary policy.
4. Slow the growth of federal spending.
His tax-cuts passed through Congress but because they were being phased in gradually the economic pain they were designed to lessen lingered well into 1982.
As the deficits remained high there was pressure to raise taxes. Reagan’s team began meetings to compromise a plan with then Speaker of the House, Tip O’Neill, to agree on a deficit reduction plan.
Thus began the disaster of 1982. After a long compromise it was agreed that there would be a combination of tax increases on business, similar to today, and reductions in federal spending.
the Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982 (TEFRA) was created. It consisted of $3 in spending cuts for every $1 in tax increases. It sounded persuasive at the time. Believing it to be the only way to get spending under control, Reagan and most of the president's colleagues signed on.
THE CUTS NEVER HAPPENED!!!!
Of course the tax increases were quickly enacted, the Democrats had no problem accepting that part, but the promised tax cuts never materialized. After the bill passed some Democrats even claimed that there was no real commitment to the 3-to-1 ratio. In fact, spending for fiscal 1983 was $49 billion higher. Tax revenues actually went down with the increased tax rates. Fortunately the individual income tax-rate reductions that passed in 1982 remained intact and the economy began its incredible recovery.
Today we see the same deception from Barrack Hussein. There will never be any cuts in spending unless they are linked completely with the revenue increases. Barrack Hussein will use the typical Liberal/Progressive move of dealing with emotions rather than real substantial policy. Most likely because he has no economic policy. This “Warren Buffett Rule” nonsense is nothing more than the ongoing class-warfare/envy-of-the-rich meme.
The simple fact is that there is no plan from the Democrats other than raising taxes. We have told us for 4 years that they are “focused like a laser” on the economy and they still have nothing to show that even resembles a realistic plan. It’s been 1,307 days since the largest economy in the history of the world has had a real budget. We have essentially burned through the $2.4 TRILLION debt-ceiling increase from last August in a matter of only 15 months. This of course will be another argument about needing this money to pay Social Security benefits, even though the Democrats claim there is some mysterious $2.7 trillion in some even more mythical “fund”, and Medicare recipients.
The lies from the Liberal/Progressives just keep rolling along. Let’s just extend the current tax-rates for 6 months to give the Democrats ample time to come up with their plan for a balanced increase in tax revenues and spending cuts. If not, let the “fiscal cliff” happen, let sequestration take place.
It’s time to call the Liberal/Progressives out on their continuing lies.
Jim, you only get Earned Income Tax Credit, if you EARN some money. You don't get anything if you earn zero. Same with Making Work Pay Credit (up to $800 credit, I think)
You might not pay taxes in, and still get a credit, but you have to EARN some money to qualify. You can't just collect a check for "just sitting there."
****I guess Seeking already zinged you Jim***** sorry for beating the dead horse everybody!
SmBusOwner - thank you. The guy said he was getting an education and would file and still get a check. That was my point but jim clearly doesn't know about tax laws.
For sure SS. Sort of like ProBusiness who seems to have no business being in business.
JimSpence,
The Reagan "cuts that never came" are owned by Reagan. The final Reagan budgets were all within 1% of Reagan's proposed budgets, so you can't blame democrats for defering and never delivering. that's dishohest.
http://zfacts.com/p/1195.html
http://zfacts.com/p/57.html
SS--really, check those out. Very good logic about why we're right about our "Republicans are full of it" attitude.
@Speeking Insanity, Not shut up ... just working at my job ! Please refer back to my post and tell me where I indicated this person's return I prepare "did not work" .... you jump to assumptions ! Besides there are OTHER kinds of refundable credits where you can get back more than you pay in.
And sorry small minded business owner, you ALSO should check and see where I indicated this person did not work ! The point is, our government does have refundable credits ... but you have to file a tax return to get them.
Anyone who feels that the wealthy shouldn't be taxed far higher than they are currently is standing behind a disingenuous argument.
The problem with our economy stated back in the 1980's with the Reagan administration. They put forth the rather absurd notion that lowering the taxes on the wealthiest few would trickle down to the rest of society as a higher living standard for all. The results were rather predictable with the gap in income inequality rising every year since that time at an exponential rate.
As the majority of people have seen their incomes become stagnant or less through the ensuing years we have the chosen few who have politicized their right to ever more wealth and political power over the majority.
The problem is that not only is the bulk of currency being hoarded by the wealthiest few but also they continue to write legislation that continues to push for their interests over that of the rest of the nation.
The solution is taking ownership of the fact that Supply Side economics was a complete and utter failure and set the system for having a progressive tax system with no loopholes for the wealthiest few to cheat the system with.
Let the freeloaders on top either accept it or move their treacherous asses to China where we can impose tariffs against their poorly made goods.
Why is it so difficult to comprehend a single tax rate applicable to ALL those earning income in the US (no exceptions)??? By default, those making more will pay more, those making less will pay less. It's basic math, it's not complicated. Overhaul deductions, keep the ones that benefit individuals such as dependents, mortgage interest, etc. Keep the ones that make sense for businesses. Beyond that, if the layman can't figure it out, get rid of it. It is ridiculous that a bunch of overly credentialed, partisan congressmen/women can't wrap their heads how simple this should be.
jim - idiot - HE stated he didn't work and that is the post I was replying to. You got caught and it shows you know NOTHING about taxes and now you're trying to wiggle your way out of it. I was very clear about my response - my first words were "if you didn't work" so you don't have any argument about not knowing he didn't work. Yet you screamed about me "not knowing" what I was talking about. Clearly the only one who doesn't know taxes is YOU!
We weren't talking about refundable tax credits - we were taling about filing for an Earned Income Credit when you haven't worked all year!
Buffoon! You're NO CPA!
@SeekingSanity #1.64, Again, since you apparently have a reading dysfunction, you ATTACKED in your post at #1.33 saying roadlesstraveled should get an education .... which is actually what he was doing, while NOT drawing a paycheck .... but still getting money back from the government .... one of MANY refundable tax credits. Most of the refundable tax credits come from the Earned Income Tax Credit, but in his case it was likely the American Opportunity Credit .... which I just benefitted from as well ... just got my refund check with an extra $2k BACK from Uncle Sam. How you say ? By paying for my son's education expenses in 2011 !
But then again, there are REFUNDABLE tax credits for the child tax credit, homebuyer credit (may not still be active), the adoption tax credit... and several others.
So when you attacked roadlesstraveled, you merely made a fool of yourself .... because he DOES get a refundable credit even while not working !
Wish, that works up until the point the curve of revenue falls apart and the middle class as a whole must hold nearly 6 times the burden of tax revenue. A flat rate tax beneath 26% would automatically decrease our revenue.
jim - you're a fraud and it's been proved. Shut up- you're just making it worse. You are the one who spouted off about the Earned Income Tax credit in your post attacking me. You're an idiot and a fake. You know nothing. And, you've proved it and now you're trying to back out.
He cannot get any money back if he did no work all year - nothing! My CPA is laughing his a** off at you trying to get out of this mess! You're a joke!
He get's no "refundable credit" for himself if he put nothing in! LOL Look up the word "refundable" in the dictionary! It might help you when you try to talk taxes in the future!
Gotta go - but you'll be the conversation this evening over drinks - you and you're being a CPA! LOL!
Seeking Sanity, You merely fell for his trap, desperately trying to convince the world of your self-appointed mental superiority, but ENTIRELY MISSING the tax nugget .... work was not the issue, you only thought it was the issue ... and then when I threw up the Earned Income Credit as an example of a REFUNDABLE CREDIT ... you wet your pants in anger and explosiveness ! He didn't work, he got a credit ... you falsely declared his education didn't take but it was the very education credit, the American Opportunity Credit that gave him the refund .... even though he WAS NOT WORKING !
There are other refundable tax credits as well ans some non-refundable ones too.
You attacked in #1.33 .... and once again, YOU WERE WRONG !!!!
Oh, and after you get thoroughly "sloshed" over drinks .... I suggest you Google refundable tax credits !
no jimmy boy - you were and are wrong. And, you have to resort to childish comments like "wet your pants" which just shows total desperation; a lack of character and a total lack of class.
You could easily have said - as I have on occasion - oops! totally misread that or made a mistake - but you just had to make yourself look more foolish with your desperate attempts to salvage a total error! You did this to yourself but you'll still try to deflect onto me because you're not man enough to say "I goofed." You just look stupid and you've done it to yourself!
roadlesstraveled didn't make a trap - you did in your eagerness to bash me. He pointedly said he didn't work; paid no taxes; nothing but he'd be getting a refund check! You didn't bother to read you were so eager to make me look bad and it backfired all over you!
Good night! I won't get sloshed - just enjoy a drink with great company.
Keep trying to make it better - you're just digging the hole deeper!
SmBusOwnerinNY
zfacts?
REALLY????
PUHLEEEEEEZ tell me you don't believe little Stevie Stofts Liberal/Progressive nonsense. I would hope as a small business owner you would be more capable of identifying propaganda when you see it. His garbage has been discredited more than Barrack Husseins.
Is Stevie still using Time, Newsweek and Mother Jones as some of his sources?
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
Lemme guess, Stevie's still using Rex Nutting's convoluted "liberal math" to come up with Barrack Hussein being the smallest spending president, right? Is he still using Brown Universities convoluted calculation of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan vs. the real numbers that the Congressional Research Service provides too?
Come on, I would hope that, as an alleged business owner, you would have the common sense to read past Stevie's gibberish and use a more acceptable source for your arguments.
Now, having said that, can any of you Libbies tell me WHAT IS BARRACK HUSSEINS plan for spending cuts and entitlement reform?
Americans have been waiting for 4 years.
to be fair, brown university has a better record in finance than the CRS. And obama put medicare/medicaid/and SS reform on the table. Where have you been the last three months? He's also capping tax deductions.
people are so dumb!!! doesn't surprise me one bit that these fools voted that moron for a second term....taxing only 200,000 annual incomes will help nothing!!! and if you think it will you are an ignorant fool!!!(obviously you are since you voted in favor of the idiot in the white house)
Look at it this way. There is a little thing called the A.M.T. that will be where the tax rates will fall come January 2nd.
As was stated several times before: This is one big party for the dummycrats. This is not a revenue problem it is a spending problem, and we are already borrowing 40% of every dollar we spend. Very soon no other country will buy our worthless currency. That is when you better have a wheel barrow full of cash for a loaf of bread.
JimSpence
Why are you so up in arms about someone who makes less than 8k year and have an EIC? are you outraged at Romney and his wife taking a $77k tax deduction on a Horse? and of the wealthy taking tax credits for flying all over the world for leisure, but they stop and say hello to a business acquaintance and call it a business expense? I guess in your world the wealthy are GODS, and we all should be servants to the gods
while I agree the federal reserve should stop printing money and buying up the debt, I must heavily disagree and say there is a revenue problem. We made more per annum with 20% less people 10 years ago. Rates have to come up, the insanely rich need to stimulate the economy and buy stuff instead of simply letting their cash expand to 95% of U.S. wealth (it's already at 85%). Supply can't be made until a rise in demand occurs, which means the middle class needs spending power, which the very rich will not give them.
Here is a CRAZY Idea- How about stop Spending so much?
No bailouts to other countries and take care of the USA first.
Get the Whores in Congress in line and reduce the deficit by staying within a budget.
That is if Obama can pass one that the Democrats will approve.
I think the younger generations of America don't know how to balance their own checkbook.....or stay within their income....yeah it's the Rich people's fault.....and Obama is perpetuating the class warfare......rich vs poor..... shame
hey scott- numbers, are you even capable of staying on the topic? or do you think your nonsense will persuade anyone other than the thoroughly delusional riech-wing trolls?
you must be referring to yourself, bryan -numbers
Ex-FoxBot
JimSpence
ROTFLMAO!!!
GODS? Hardly.
What I am up in arms is the irrational persistence of our current criminal progressive tax system. This abysmal failure of taxation has been tweaked just about every which way possible for a century, and we still won’t admit that it is a failure.
Of course when tax reform is mentioned the Liberals/Progressives become epileptic. Despite the fact that no matter what we set tax-rates at we consistently collect revenues at about 18% of GDP, no one considers just having a Flat Tax or Fair Tax that generates the same amount of revenue. This would eliminate the massive bureaucracy and tax avoidance that our current system allows.
First of all its sheer size, 71,684 pages (and changing, most likely higher, right now). If you read one page per minute without stopping it will take you nearly 50 days to read all of it. This is assuming you can comprehend all of it, and it doesn't include the time you will need to refer back and forth between different sections to understand the content. Next, there are 1,120 different tax forms. The simple question for this is, why? The answer follows.
It is estimated that taxpayers pay $431.1 Billion annually, or 30% of total income taxes collected, just to comply and administer the tax code. Over 6.1 billion hours are spent by individuals and businesses complying and completing their taxes. A reduction in tax code complexity would help reduce the National Debt by $1.4 trillion over a decade.
Between 1986 and 2005 Congress passed over 14,400 amendments to the tax code, this equates to almost 3 changes every day for 19 straight years. There have been about 4,400 tax code changes in the last 10 years. There were approximately 580 changes in 2010 alone.
And you all think changing a few loopholes will somehow make a difference? Good luck with that wet-dream. Remember, any government big enough to give you everything you want (or think you're getting), is big enough to take everything you have (or thought you got). Just how long do you think it will take for the lobbyists, special interest groups, corporations or unions to resume their happy little loopholes or bring in the next batch of Ivy League math and economic geeks to find the next loophole?
Oh, by the way, in each of the last 2 years the IRS received 110 million calls from taxpayers and they were unable to answer 25% of the questions. Are you getting more confident about our current tax code you all cherish so much?
Taxes are meant to fund the essential functions of our government mandated by the 18 Enumerated Powers of Article1, Section 8 of the Constitution. When we changed this premise by bastardizing the General Welfare Clause, the Commerce Clause and the Necessary and Proper Clause we find ourselves where we are today.
Taxes should NEVER be used as a source of rewards and punishments against any American citizen. Taxes should never be used as a redistributionay vehicle either, that's the economies responsibility. No agency should strike the fear in Americans that the Internal Revenue Service has created over the decades. April 15th should not be a day we regret but rather a day we respect as the government that works FOR the American people performs its jobs effectively, efficiently and Constitutionally.
Our current system of special preferences, credits, exemptions, deductions, and other loopholes have caused complexity, distortions, and corruption. In the early 1990s, Rep. Dick Armey (R-TX) proposed a Flat-Tax that would have required just two postcards. Households would have used the individual postcard to pay a 17 percent tax (this rate can be discussed) on wages, salary, and pensions, though a generous family-based allowance (more than $30,000 for a family of four) meant that there was no tax on the income needed to cover basic expenses.
Taxes on other types of income would have been calculated using the second postcard, which would have been filed by every business regardless of its size or structure. Simply stated, there would have been a 17 percent tax on net income, which would have been calculated by subtracting wages, input costs, and investment expenditures from total receipts.
While the simplicity and low tax rate were obvious selling points, the flat tax also eliminated various forms of double taxation, ending the bias against income that was saved and invested. In other words, the IRS got to tax income only one time. The double tax on dividends would have been completely eliminated. The death tax also was to be wiped out, as was the capital gains tax, and all saving would have received "Roth IRA" treatment.
Another key feature of the flat tax was the repeal of special tax breaks. With the exception of a family-based allowance, there would have been no tax preferences. Lawmakers no longer would have been able to swap loopholes for campaign cash. It also would have encouraged businesses to focus on creating value for shareholders and consumers instead of trying to manipulate the tax code. Last but not least, the flat tax would have created a "territorial" system, meaning that the IRS no longer would have been charged with taxing Americans on income earned—and subject to tax—in other jurisdictions
Unfortunately this simple tax system has remained on the sidelines for over 20 years and we still sit here arguing about how much to tax certain sub-classes of our society because of their success under the current system. Of course this is not based on any relevant policy that benefits our economy, it’s based on typical class-warfare and envy of those who have used the same system you protect so strongly.
As I pointed out above, in 2010 there were 580 amendments to the tax code (remember, the Democrats controlled both Houses then). How many of those benefitted you or your family? How many of those improved the economy? How many of those were you even aware of?
You Liberals/Progressives can sit here and brow beat the mean, nasty, rich bogeymen you all despise so much, but remember one simple thing, they only use what is allowed under the current code. Most of the wealthy in this nation are first-generation. This means they DID build their own wealth. Of course your convoluted thinking discounts this as they have obviously received some special favors or they cheated or some other mythical reason in your mind. You should all read “The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of American's Wealthy”. Don’t worry, it’s written by one of your reputable sources, (GULP) The New York Slimes.
Your perceptions of those ogres that hide under your beds may change after you read this.
Here’s the link:
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/s/stanley-millionaire.html
Oh Speeking Insanity, There are some many things wrong with your post at #1.33, you really do make a show of your tax ignorance ! To start with, MANY, MANY people who "do not work" file tax returns ... they are required by law to make estimated tax payments on their investment income. Strike 1 !
Then, of course, you attack roadlesstraveled comments in #1.32 with your usual nasty reply .... implying he didn't know what he was talking about .... of course, talking about his personal taxes of which you know NOTHING, and of course ... HE is right, You are wrong ! Strike two !!
Then, as predicted, you try the desperate crawdad move while refusing to acknowledge the existence of refundable tax credits ... of which I gave you an example ! Strike three !!!
You are so OBSESSED with trying to convince the world of your self-proclaaimed intellectual superiority that you will continue to ignore the "easily-verifiable" refundable tax credits .... that DO, indeed. make it possible to not work, get an education .... and then get a refund check from Uncle Sam in excess of any withholding or tax estimates paid in !
I hope MANY here on this website go back and read your asinine reply at #1.33 ... it has more holes than a slice of swiss cheese !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seeking
Yes, you have to have job or a business to received earned income to get earned income credit AND have a AGI (line 32 & 33) most years 0 to $X.XX.
I.E. you do not have to work all year, just enough to get an Adjusted Gross Income of $1.00 to less than the maximum in each category. And what many who do work will do, is work just enough to gain the maximum amount of earned income credit.
You have to remember. This is America. We have plenty of people who can figure a way to gain maximum benefits with minimum effort. The more programs there are, the more people have an opportunity to work system. We have to have these programs for people who really need them, but it is about impossible to find all those who work the system.
From Black Agenda Report:
Not only is the ‘fiscal cliff” a phony, manufactured issue, there is fundamental agreement between the White House and Republicans in Congress on how this game should end: with entitlements in tatters. “Austerity is the common language and goal of the talks.”
Obama and GOP Play Tag Team on Entitlements
Tue, 11/27/2012 - 23:43 — Glen Ford
It seems that every breathless moment of corporate media news is choreographed to convince Americans that austerity is as inevitable as tomorrow’s weather. The objective of this con game is to gut Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid. The two principle parties engaged in negotiations – the White House and congressional Republican leaders – are both agreed that entitlements must be put under the knife. The “grand bargain” that both Obama and the GOP seek has already been made, in principle. Austerity is the common language and goal of the talks, and nobody that counts in the discussions is defending entitlements.
There is only one problem: the vast majority of Americans oppose cuts in Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.
This is the great difficulty facing both Obama and the Republicans: the fact that the public favors the maintenance and even expansion of the meager U.S. social safety net. The disagreement, the great debate, is not between Republicans and the White House, who both agree on putting entitlements on the chopping block. The disagreement is between strong majorities of the American people, who want no tampering with the three entitlement programs, and Obama and his Republican friends, who are hell bent on so-called entitlement “reform.”….
http://blackagendareport.com/content/obama-and-gop-play-tag-team-entitlements
Oh yeah more time to work out a deal. Exactly how much time do these idiots in Washington need? Obama could have embraced Simpson Bowles years ago, and now we need more time to get it right? Let the tax cuts expire, revert to the rates of 2000, and reduce federal spending to the same level as in 2000 and we would have a good start at getting it right. Obama and the Democrats have talking about this for the past 4 years, it is time to put up or shut up. This paltry 80 billion dollar tax increase is a joke, and yet we have Obama touring the nation as if it saves the country. The only flakes bigger then those in the Democratic Party espousing this nonsense are the ones that put them in office. It is time for Obama to lay out the plan, the whole plan, and quit with the talking points. Obama needs to get to work for a change.
What compromises has the president offered? All I hear is he's demanding a tax increase on the top 2%. He's said he is open to cuts, but when pressed for details he refuses to comment - except for things like calling "not continuing current war spending levels" as cuts - even though the plan never called for this money to be spent. It's kinda like me saying I'm not buying that new car today so I just saved $20k.
jim - as usual - just your pathetic inadequacy! But that pretty much sums you up! You're sooooo terrified that someone showed you up - yet again!
DB Akron - correct. However, the poster said he had not worked all year. But you are absolutely right. And, we all know fraud is not beyond many people.
Arch - While i do not agree with your whole post - I do agree this is another manufactured crisis.
As we get closer to the deadline keep an eye on the "shorts" in the various world markets - regardless of whether we go off the cliff the overall value of the stock market will go down (just as it did on the ceiling debates) the serious players will reap billions from the small investers...ie 401k's and they still win.
They are wolves and we are sheep.
All this is rhetoric on both sides to leagally steal your money.
skeptical12345
Is that a serious question?That would be because Boehner is elected by his local district in Ohio, not by the "American people" in general?
Some of you still counting the percentages for which Obama won need to get a grip on reality. Presidents win by a majority of electoral votes. Obama won by a great majority of electoral votes. If he would've won by a small majority, it would've still be a majority. Very simple concept!
I say give the President everything he wants. Then we'll see if the economy turns around.
Empty Suit has to get it done so he can go on his Hawaii vacation to the tune of $4M.
He's such an a$$hole it's unbelievable. How many of you libs can afford to Hawaii this year??? You and many other are staying at home trying to figure out how to make ends meet and he's off to Hawaii with the whole clan.......Yep he's looking out for the people of this country alright......he's right back to his old tricks of pimping the office.....$4M of my tax dollars going to this elitist who could give a crap less about the millions unemployed or living poorly........Doesn't any of this insult you supposedly intelligent libs???
This Empty Suit is a piece of excrement......But still you bow down to you "Lord and Savior"......You're as pitiful as he is......He may be your president...but he'll never be mine........He deserves no respect.....He's a heartless and cruel Empty Suit elitist who smiles a big a$$ grin and rubs it into the face of everyone like a Chicago pimp.....
http://www.whitehousedossier.com/2012/11/29/obama-slated-hawaii-cliff/
Report: Obama in Hawaii as Nation Goes Over the Cliff
by Keith Koffler on November 29, 2012, 9:38 am
President Obama is reportedly scheduled to be vacationing in Hawaii on January 2, the date billions in spending cuts – and untold consequences for the economy – will kick in if a deal is not reached on the “fiscal cliff.”
According to the Hawaii Reporter, residents who live in the area of Oahu where Obama and his family vacation have been told that the usual restrictions on their movements during an Obama stay will be in place for 21 days, from December 17 through January 6.
The White House has not officially announced the vacation, and it is unclear if the travel plans are finalized or if the Obamas will be in Hawaii for the entire three-week window covered by the restrictions.
An upcoming vacation could provide subtle pressure for Obama to reach a deal, since not getting one might force him to cancel his coveted time in Hawaii. Even though the election is behind him, Obama’s advisers would probably think it too much of a public relations nightmare to have the president luxuriating in paradise while the country embarks on a season of massive pain.
In the past, Obama has made sure he got his vacation time in – even extending his scheduled Hawaii sojourn after being forced to delay its start because of negotiations with Congress.
What’s more, the Obamas skipped their traditional August trip to ritzy Martha’s Vineyard, an excursion that would have contrasted too severely with a candidate supposedly fighting for the middle class. They presumably are more than eager at this point to get away.
The Hawaii Reporter estimates that the total cost of the vacation to Hawaii and federal taxpayers, including funding for travel, staff and protection, is at least $4 million. Obama’s vacations are more expensive than those of previous presidents because of the huge costs to fly Air Foce One and an accompanying cargo plane for nine hours or so to Hawaii.
Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/fiscal-cliff/2012/11/29/obamas-4m-taxpayer-funded-hawaii-vacation#ixzz2De31bgLk
President Obama is reportedly scheduled to be vacationing in Hawaii on January 2, the date billions in spending cuts – and untold consequences for the economy – will kick in if a deal is not reached on the “fiscal cliff.”
According to the Hawaii Reporter, residents who live in the area of Oahu where Obama and his family vacation have been told that the usual restrictions on their movements during an Obama stay will be in place for 21 days, from December 17 through January 6.
The Hawaii Reporter estimates that the total cost of the vacation to Hawaii and federal taxpayers, including funding for travel, staff and protection, is at least $4 million. Obama’s vacations are more expensive than those of previous presidents because of the huge costs to fly Air Foce One and an accompanying cargo plane for nine hours or so to Hawaii.
Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/fiscal-cliff/2012/11/29/obamas-4m-taxpayer-funded-hawaii-vacation#ixzz2De31bgLk
President Obama is reportedly scheduled to be vacationing in Hawaii on January 2, the date billions in spending cuts – and untold consequences for the economy – will kick in if a deal is not reached on the “fiscal cliff.”
According to the Hawaii Reporter, residents who live in the area of Oahu where Obama and his family vacation have been told that the usual restrictions on their movements during an Obama stay will be in place for 21 days, from December 17 through January 6.
The Hawaii Reporter estimates that the total cost of the vacation to Hawaii and federal taxpayers, including funding for travel, staff and protection, is at least $4 million. Obama’s vacations are more expensive than those of previous presidents because of the huge costs to fly Air Foce One and an accompanying cargo plane for nine hours or so to Hawaii.
Read more: http://nation.foxnews.com/fiscal-cliff/2012/11/29/obamas-4m-taxpayer-funded-hawaii-vacation#ixzz2De31bgLk
Quote LA Times November 28th: "KEY DEMOCRAT CALLS FOR CUTS TO SOCIAL SAFETY NET"
Sen Richard Durbin says just taxing the rich will not solve the budget problems. "We can't be so naive to believe that just taxing the rich will solve our problems", said Durbin speaking before the influential liberal group Center for American Progress. "Put everything on the table. Repeat. Put everything on the table".
Folks Durbin would never have said this without discussing it with President Obama first. He and Obama realize that EVERYONE has to take a hit...they knew that before the election...we can't go on as we have...they know this...they were just waiting for the election to be over...now it's time to serve the medicine...and everyone on this vine is going to take some.
This is a brave first step towards saving our country from the fate of Greece...please show your support by sending an e-mail Senator Durbin and thanking him for his courage!
wb52 - when you post such drivel, who do you think actually believes your lies?
Yes, solve this matter quickly! Obummer wants to get to his 21-day vacation in Hawaii at a cost of $4,000,000 to the taxpayers.
Of Course - you're a blithering idiot!
The liar is setting @ 1600 Pennsylvania Ave......4 dead Americans in Benghazi and the Empty Suit covers it up.....And of course right on cue I see good ole "Seeking" start the personal name calling....It's truly sad that's all the libs have got.
Your guy won...and still you're angry.....
I can't believe you are not insulted by his smearing his pimping of the office in your face....Him and his wife "Smug" laughing all the way to AF1.........
The "Freebie" Empty Suit cashing in on some of his own......disgusting......
wb52, you mean as opposed to the last pres who took more vacation than any other president in history? the last clown spent nearly a third of his term on vacation.
With the Congress calling for the President to be conciliatory and Republicans actually trying to get on board, I think ol' orange head (thanks Seeking) Boehner needs to start listening more than he talks!
White Collar Auto
Can you please trust the President?......He came out of the election with a political capital and now he is spending it......on surging-up support in pressuring this ...DO-NOTHING-CONGRESS for SOME ACTION.
Have you heard the latest, the GOP is complaining because President Obama is TALKING TO THE PEOPLE !!!!
Sorry, wrote comment before reading White Collar's diatribe below.
I guess WCA got the talking points memo.
We wouldn't want our government "of the people" to be actually doing something for the real live human beings or, heaven forbid, actually talking to them.
agree. he wants to push but refuses to get pushed back. I am with him on the reform of all the loop holes and freebies, but we can work on that in a bit, after the holidays i guess, but for now a very short extension would be ok, and then after the holidays bit by bit go over these issues. The lumping of so many bits is a serious issue with these bills but I don't think reform needs to be included. Separately we can begin to sort out the tax codes...keeping rates low for the <1% and taxing the high earners can still be possible as a trial bases instead of a padlock on the first go...that data is necessary and can help direct our attention to the proper areas that need addressing. So with this brief extension on the <1% and a large tax hike on the wealthy for now could provide exactly what the country needs to understand the outcome....
Hey drip @2.2, maybe you could get Bam-Bam actually "talking" to the people he is "supposed to be working with" ... you know, the ELECTED members of Congress ! Is that possible for a "leader" to do ?
I'm curious as to which programs you righties think should be cut. You keep saying we don't have a revenue problem,we have a spending problem. But no one seems to want to discuss which programs you'd want to cut. I'd like to see them so I can comment on those cuts.
I agree fundamentally with the president's plan - keep the Bush tax cuts for income less than $250,000 and let them expire for income over $250,000. Remember that the plan is not to tax ALL of the income of people making > $250K at 39.5%, just the amount over $250K.
What I don't get is this:
Boehner takes the uncompromising position that the tsx cuts should be extended for all earners. Obama takes the uncompromising position that only those under $250K should be extended. And yet all the liberal posters here claim that only Boehner is unwilling to compromise. Obama is just as unbending as Boehner. Of late, the only party loosening their stance is the republicans.
Just sayin'.
Uncle Bob, we could use the democratic approach - we won't know what programs to cut until we pass the legislation...
No program should be off the table, not defense, not medicare, not social security, not planned parenthood, not anything. Don't know if we should cut them all but we should at least be able to discuss them all.
joemike404, I agree with some of what you say, particularly in #2.8.
Are you aware, however, that Obamacare has ALREADY increased taxes .9% on earned income for those making in excess of the $200k/$250 k levels ? Are you aware there is a 3.8% medicare "surtax" on unearned income abobe those same levels ?? Are you aware that Obamacare has raised taxes by reducing medical reimbursement plan limitations, put excise taxes on medical devices and raised the AGI floor for medical deductions ..... which can affect ALL Americans .... even those making less than $200k ??
Uncle Bob, ALL OF THEM!
Jim - I am 99% postive that JoeMike has no idea what you are talking, and I will go even further to say that 90% of Americans have no idea what you are talking about.
He/Obamacare is already raising their taxes by about 4 percent just to pretend to pay for Obamacare.
Have you heard the latest: the American people are NOT the ones working in D.C.
Time for Mr. Obama to MAN UP and get off the campaign trail. The election is OVER.
Actually Tom, since I teach healthcare economics and finanace and have worked in the healthcare industry for 40 years, yes I do know what Jim is talking about. Stop making assumptions about people you don't know.
Why are the taxes built into Obamacare NEVER DISCUSSED ?
Some of the medical deduction curbs make it appear the Dems have a "war on sick people".
So then you do realize that people are asking others to go to work for 8 hours but only get paid for 4. Sorry!
Taxes, taxes, taxes - give ObamaClaus your taxes. Take from those evil 1% types and buy more Obama Phones for the entitlement crowd!
Taxes, taxes, taxes - give me the 1% taxes and I'll run gov. for 8 days.
Hey folks, why is it the Progressives want everything from the working class and wish to distribute it to the non-workers? It's taxes, but I hear no spening reductions from the Progressives.
What ever happen to the Simpson-Bowles report that outlined spending problems? How much Medicare waste happens every year, or how much spending waste from over-regulating everything that walks, talks and breaths air?
How much money do we taxpayers send to foreign countries when our own are suffering in the US? Why do we fund foreign entities that wish to eliminate us?
And why, when ObamaCare is such a great thingy, is the Congress and the President exempt from the program? Shouldn't they be setting the example?
funnygirl you're so...so...funny.
You ask whatever happened to Simpson Bowles?....Lying Ryan....voted against it......end of story!
Obama tabled it!
Just keep all the bums working in Washington during the holiday until they get it right. No holiday until they do their jobs. Maybe something will be accomplished.. for once.
What is funny is that America put Obama in office to do what he promised; 1st term make health insurance available to everyone, 2nd term make the rich pay a fair share in taxes. The republicans are on the run and refuse to put in law no new taxes on the middle class. Too bad they didn't say that during the election.
You think that raising taxes on the rich is hitting the job creators? Well so what, with a national unemployment rate between 8% and 9% there not doing their job anyway. Kick start them, raise their taxes and when they actually do create jobs lower them.
notsofunny - you're lying. He didn't table it!
Buring - but Washington doesn't want them either!
Obama put medicare reform on the table as well as SS, so yes, boehner is the only one not bending.
the gop was offered 4 dollars in spending cuts for each one dollar is revenue. they turned it down.
the whitehouse has already offered another 340 billion in medicade and medicare cuts without cutting a single benefit. the gop has blocked it
sop if the gop does nothing, as usual then jan 1 everyone get a tax increase, then the dems will offer a tax cut for the 98% and the gop will take it because then they can say they did'nt raise taxes. this is just a political game to keep grover happy.
if the gop turns down a tax cut for 98% of the people in order to preserve the top 2% the gop will be done for decades. they are already in serious trouble. when you lose the women vote, the cuban vote, the catholic vote, the asian vote, the hispanic vote, those under 29 you are in trouble. look at the house leadership and you see the problem the gop has. nothing but old white guys. no women who vote at higher rate than men, no minorities who will soon the the majority, no young people who are the future largest demographic. the gop is quickly becoming the whigg party
JinSpence, thank you for your great insight and for the review of the Reagan years. I'm with you.
"WHOEVER SPEAKS FIRST LOSES"!!! MR. Obama continues to lead from behind, failing to bring forward any meaningful and genuine proposals for spending cuts. He and his cronies in the Senate just talk about increasing taxes, but nothing regarding the other side of the equation. The Senate has failed to introduce any serious budget for years, and along with Mr. Obama continue to blame the Republicans for all the problems with the economy even going back to Regan!!! They all lack character and guts and even after winning the election, continue to mislead WE THE PEOPLE with lies, insults, and behind the scene strategies to eliminate their opposing party and bring forward their socialist agenda. It's shameful that adults continue to behave as children, and don't come forward with the TRUTH about their motives and decision. It's shameful that the majority of the country couldn't see the fraudulent behavior of the Progressives, and being afraid to confront the TRUTH about the downhill spiral of our great country. I will recommend that the Republicans stay put, say nothing more, stick with their principles, and let the fiscal cliff fall in the Democrats great victory, then will see the real bluffer raise up and fearful of what his constituents will blame at that time. Remember: "BETTER TO REMAIN SILENT AND BE THOUGHT A FOOL, THAN TO SPEAK AND TO REMOVE ALL DOUBT!! We really need a January 1st uprising in Washington, DC!! of all of those that love our country, and see this great country going downhill very fast, with the same fate as many European countries and feel betrayed by the worst "leader" and President in our lifetime.
Mando - only in your small mind. The President is among our best and, when his 2nd term is over, will rank as one of the top 10 in history. You sad little Republicans just can't stop hating! It's truly pathetic!
the worst Pres. ever is no longer the President. You can't be real, I mean look what Bush did to us, nothing comes close to that so man up and stop looking through rose colored glasses and see things for what they are.
You may not like Obama or he's policies, but he has not done anything that is as bad as what Bush put us through and you conservatives need to realized that once and for all.
lu-2005066,
Look what Polk, Taylor, and Fillmore did to us.
lu-2005066
Bushes 1st term the economy kept going along swimmngly. In the 2nd term when Democrates split congress in the 1st two years then gain the majority in congress the 2nd two years is when the wheels fell off of the economy.
Man, I wish this dude would quit campaigning and get to work.
Somebody tell him the election is over.
I think this is what they refer to as the Bully Pulpit and just about every president uses it to goad Congress. With this Congress being the least productive in history, the "bullying" needs to continue until they get the message.
W did it with his "Privatize SS" seems some folks a selective memory loss and regurgitate every talking point that comes out of McConnell's mouth. Have an original thought or buzz word for the day, please.
Which chamber of Congress are you refering to V.I.?
He is working. Congress isn't. He's going to the American people with his plans in the hopes that Congress will get the message that enough is enough. He's saying to them "Work with me on avoiding the fiscal cliff. If you don't, you will have to answer to every single American citizen on why you failed them." As Voting independent said, this needs to continue until they get the message.... And Rancho, I'm pretty certain it's directed toward the House. It is the House Republicans holding up this process. The President was and is willing to put SS & Medicare reforms on the table. It is the House GOP that isn't budging on letting any of the Bush-era tax cuts expire...
Big-Bob-1107869
Bob be careful of your adjectives......lazy Americans.....you may be laughing at yourself!
Mr. Anonymous, The "American people" do not vote on legislation ... the members of Congress do that as our elected representatives ! Obama is just encouraging a mob mentality of government.
Obama is just encouraging a mob mentality of government.
---------------------------------------------------------
Yes, this crazy thinking that they, the electorate, the voters, can tell their representatives how to vote or that some guy (Just because he happens to be President or something) could call on the people who elected him to "call their representatives and tell them how you feel" is a travesty of democracy. Why, it's MOB RULE!, That's what it is!
(So much for all that "We the People" crap...)
We the People don't elect the President, the electoral college does.
dangerfield, We "tell our representatives how to vote" at the elections when we vote to keep them or vote to send them home. We live in a Republic where we elect our chosen Representatives and they vote on the bills on our behalf.
It is highly idealistic that every Congressman can listen to every constituent, however it is not practical nor is it realistic. Obama has never made a serious attempt to cut any government spending other than GUTTING OUR MILITARY. Our country has a spending problem ... it coincides with the Democrats control of Congress during Bush's last 2 years, and extending through Obama's first term.
you mean Occupy movement wasnt Mob mentallity. The movement that Obama didnt definitely discourage. We may not be mob rule but i do see precipice for easily going down that path. I believe the Fiscal Cliff will usher in Greece and Mob mentality minus Tony Soprano.
No, it won't. The fiscal cliff will sting, but it's medicine we as a nation need. That said, politician healthcare should not be free and for life, and their pensions are ludicrously high given their ineffectiveness.
i agree it will sting however what stings us will sting the world equally. Honestly there is no excuse and its not like its going to hurt the politicians whose wages are taken from the tax payers if we go off the fiscal cliff.
It will not sting the world any worse than china's curency manipulation. Also, I believe politicians' pensions should not be til death. Maybe 5 years from the end of time served. Also, I believe their medical coverage should be taxed out of their paychecks.
I'm sure obama will find more ways to give away free stuff to illegals and lazy Americans while raising taxes on hard working Americans. Welcome to the Ununited Socialist States of America! Bankrupt by 2015. Destroyed by 2020 thanks to obama!
boo hoo---Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
Big Bob - what an idiotic post. Most poeple WANT to work and would do anything to get jobs - if they don't have one. Your post shows the hatred of the right is still flourishing - in the diminished minds of the little Republicans!
Free stuff, still waiting and waiting and waiting. Nonsensical and mean spirited post. Lose the election and resort to republican-speak.
Oh, God, give us all a break! Your comment only further proves the extreme ignorance that is in this country. So, by your account, only the top 2% of this country are "hard working Americans"? Wow, that is straight out of the O'Reilly handbook for Little Soldier Conservatives. The rest of your comment is completely ridiculous.
so big bob trust fund babies are hard working americans? my wife and i are hard working americans we pay 35% of our income towards taxes, while barely getting by as middle class. while trust fund babies pay 14% or less of their income towards taxes. that is just not right! either lower ours to their rates or raise theirs to our rates. things need to start being fair!
There is Seeking again proving she is right without facts. If you call someone an idiot, is that loving and kind? In lefty world it is. HYPOCRICY ON THE LEFT IS STILL FLOURISHING!!!!!!
@seeking sanity,
You are full of crap. Most people do not want to work (most that live off of entitlement programs anyway). Why was the work requirement removed from welfare?
kcbones work requirement was not removed from welfare. they tried to remove it but it got blocked. which i feel was a good thing.
KCBones - and you are full of sh*t and spout lies. The majority of people not working would love to work - there are not enough jobs out there - haven't ya heard? And, many have resorted to working two jobs and still can't make enough to pay their bills and keep food on the table.
The fact that you hang with a lazy, ignorant crowd is no one's fault but yours. You should find better friends!
YOU GOT THAT RIGHT !
Why do you think so many people [more than half this country] are waiting for the fall? Automatic weapons are piling up and it will be time soon to take it to the streets. Grow Up America - Congress has sold out to rich Arabs with multimillion dollar hand shakes . . . Congress nor the Senate represent the will of the people but feed their own greed by taking the bribes for votes.
I fear it will be a War in the streets soon.
God please bless America before its too late!
I hope old Big Bob is rich. I can't wait for him to pay more taxes so I can get my free stuff. Actually, I'm just kidding, because anyone who makes a statement about the Free Stuff is to dumb to be rich. Unless you are someone like Rush in which the dumb folks pay his salary.
They just give us Rush Limpball talking points
Wow...
This place is even farther out on the fringe than before the election...
Blood in the streets guy really needs help from the medical community and to be monitored by Homeland Security.
God help this poor soul before it's too late...
Well AlaskaGirl - according to the President's rhetoric the only "working folk" in the country are those making less than $50,000. If the president can make up stuff so can the republicans.
big bob
Your post is just tooooo funny. You & the rest of the "biillly bobs" are just mad because You are in the minority. You lost!!!! get over it or away...far, far away. Bye!
Get used to it...2014 is even going to be Better. (if the GOP/Baggers don't behave)
Tigerlover
We'll be watching for you on the 6pm news...I hope you get what U have coming...sick bast@#d!
The people that don't want to work or just work cheap are in republican voting right to work Southern states, 9 of the top 10 welfare states are solid republican voting states. They suck up far more federal welfare than they pay in taxes, funny when republicans constantly complain about themselves.
Eric - That's right.
I pay anywhere from a low of 24% to as high as 29% of my income as taxible wages.
I work my ass off; I make pretty damn good money, I have an accountant and I can't get anywhere near the magic Romney number of 15%.
Reason - Mine are wages / not capital gains.
And some would say this is fair?
Regardless my taxes are going up - I'm not happy about it. Will it ruin my life, no.....will it help the country...maybe.
One thing is for sure the Republicans have screwed everyone with the trickle down theory and it doesn't work.
I'm willing to support President Obama on this one.
Is it me or is "Seeking" really starting to sound like Baghdad Bob???
But then again so is the Empty Suit.....
The libtards do not understand that money from capital gains is NOT theirs. Nor is the estate when someone dies. Why would someone want to work their ass off, become successful and then have a corrupt and socialist government come and take 50 f#@%ing percent of their earnings? I support Romney and anyone else keeping money off shore to avoid it going to our government. Those idiots don't know what to do with money except waste it!
Too early to tell....we will most likely see the rates stay the same for all income brackets, but proposals to close loopholes and deductions. Revenue is revenue. The clip I saw yesterday on Harry Reed indicated he wasn't open to spending cuts on entitlements which is troubling. We won't be able to reduce the deficit without spending cuts, plain and simple.
Please name all these loop holes that are going to be closed.
It is typical GOP tactic. Obama needs to man up and say I will allow all the tax cuts to expire if you you don't accept a full 10% hike on the upper income and take the Capital Gains tax to 35% on anybody getting more than $750K in investment income...oh and while he is at it, uncap the income phase out on SS contributions
It sounds like a bunch of sour grapes on your part. You want to penalize the successful. May I ask what the hell it is you do for a living other spread your crap on this vine. Are going to pony up like you want us to or are you one of those takers?
your right chris at this point we need to do both, raise taxes and decrease spending. unfortunantly people dont see how much trouble we are really in. we need to make the hard choices to get us out of the debt we have let run up. only then will you see our economy getting better.
aceofhearts penalize the successfull? really? my wife is a paralegal. i am retired airforce and a conservation officer. we both have worked hard for our money. so let me ask. how is it fair that we pay more per capita in taxes then trust fund babies and ceo's?
Here are three:
1. eliminate mortgage interest deduction on second home
2. cap on amount of mortgae interest you can deduct on primary home
3. Reduction in earned income credit
I am a manager who has made six figures since the late 90's.....this idea that democrats are takers is ludicrous....the red states in the south take much more from the federal government than what they give....don't be silly.
And Chris, really EIC? Yes let's penalize the working poor and let the wealth off the hook.
Your first two I am fine with, but it won't raise much money
How about: eliminate the capital gains rates, dividend exclusions, "carried interest" and interest income rates. Tax all income at ordinary income rates.
Let the AMT alone.
OH, and for SS and Medicare: make ALL income, regardless of source, subject to the taxes AND no caps.
ummm...these wealthy, how are they getting away with paying less??? ummmm could it be ..loopholes???
Dirp, you mean that for SS that I pay for my working life, when I finally get to draw some of it back, I should be taxed on it AGAIN!
DWC - You didn't pay taxes on your SS when it was paid in, so yes you get to pay it when it is withdrawn. They call it deferred taxes, this is the same case with a 401k withdraw
.
Existing Tax Law ALREADY makes up to 85% of social security income as taxable. It is "need-based" to a degree because the higher the income from other sources, the more easily it is taxed.
Drip's post @ 5.7 merely demonstrates a lack of knowledge ... but it won't stop him/her from blathering on anyway !
Goodtimes, if we eliminate the cap on social security - currently at about 116,000, won't that tax if effect raise taxes on part of the 98%? Democratic heresy.
Also, the southern states proportionally take "more" because their economies are more challenged, a problem dating back to, and contributing to the start of, the Civil War. And could we please stop this ridiculous red state/blue state BS. There are both republicans and democrats in every state in this nation. There is absolutely no such thing as a red or blue state. It is a figment and concoction of the liberally biased media to foster tension, create conflict, further divide the nation and make them lots and lots of money.
Joe, there is such a thing as a red state. See missouri and alabama. And their economies wouldn't be so challenged if they would just start harvesting their resources instead of depending on the tobacco trade which if Marijuanna is nationally legalized, will fall apart.
MarkP-3617319 DWC - You didn't pay taxes on your SS when it was paid in, so yes you get to pay it when it is withdrawn. They call it deferred taxes, this is the same case with a 401k withdraw.
Now, when I read my pay stub, Under the section entitled "TAXES", there are 3 Federal TAXES listed: Social Security and Medicare. My income is already taxed by the government. They tax my income to put it into SS and when I am going to withdraw it, you want them to tax that money!
Brush up on your reading comprehension skills, Mark. My INCOME was taxed to put the money into SS and you want to tax it again when I get it back.
dwc, that's single taxation of income. with no taxation on SS income, you'd receive exactly the same amount as you put in (or more if you live long enough) taxing SS income means the government keeps 1 tiny piece of your money. It's not double taxation.
Patrick93, what part of, "I paid into SS as a TAX on my income while I was working.", do you not see as a TAX. Now when I receive the benefit of having been taxed to contribute that money, you want the government to be able to TAX me again! But only a tiny piece, according to you.
BTW, if I had the opportunity to invest that money in a simple bank account, I would have earned more interest and been able to live even better through the "magic" of compound interest.
Can anyone articulate the ObamaClaus plan for this issue. Anyone seen it published anywhere?
So Obama's out campaigning again rather than be at the WH directing help for this problem.
He didn't have a plan the first time he ran nor during his re-election, so whats makes anyone think he has one now? People voted for him the first time because of the idea of Obama, people voted him the second time because he flat out ran a better campaign. People will defend him now because, well because, I mean because.....heck I have no idea way...
As Axelrod put it on purpose or by mistake, the middle will have to pay and thats just the facts....Of course he said it after Obama was re-elected.....
He only wan't to keep the middle class tax break's, raise taxes on those that make 200k, 250k, and NOT cut spending.
Bill....funnygirl is a clueless tea party hack who doesn't understand economics. She knows what Obama's position is on this issue, she simply doesn't like it because she like most GOP'rs today don't understand economics.
Goodtimesbadtimes
Yes please educate the rest of us. Where does the money needed come from again?
The money comes from revenue generated by more people working. Read Robert Reich's article on the deficit and how we eliminate it. You don't do it by cutting when a lot of people are still out of work, you do it by short term spending to get people working....once we are at a full employment type scenario that is when you cut spending. That along with increased revenue is why Clinton eliminated the deficit.
Simple Macroeconomics.
Goodtimes: I thought BO-DUMBO campaigned on having created MILLION of jobs! Well so according to your statement (You don't do it by cutting when a lot of people are still out of work) either he lied or the last YEARS of SHORT TERM SPENDING did NOTHING!
Goodtimesbadtimes
I see, so the amount of money brought into the bank by the new workers will cover the cost of short term spending? But since we already borrow 40 cents on the dollar, all the new workers would have to get paid 3.5 x more then the actual cost to employ them thus to hire someone is more expensive then the actual net made. I glad you where able to educate someone like me....
clinton also increased taxes on the upper wealthy as well, while cutting back on govt spending. i remember the defense budget cuts he did on useless programs in the military while giving our soldiers one of the largest pay raises in the history of the military. he got us in the green, so why are we not doing what he did now?
6.5 ..i think so too...I mean, I will pay nothing this year for the first time (no job, went to school), and I will get money...probably a good chunk too....it is so weird.
I mean to get money off you guys for not being able to find work...my schooling had nothing to do with you guys so why should you pay for that? I did not contribute to society, but educated myself, and you guys have to pay me come February....
roadlesstraveled
Continuing to acquire an education is often the most valuable contribution you can make to society.
Obama doesn't have a plan, just some talking points. The gap is he doesn't listen to anyone with a plan that contradicts his pre-conceived notion.
That is not leadership - That is dictatorship.
No plan?...Talking points?? Doesn't listen??? You must be brothers, then
Come on libbies, we all know the ObamaClaus talking points of taxing those who earn in excess of $250K. Talking points, that's al.
How will he budget for the financial cliff, or the huge deficits during his first term, or paying for the entitlements he's promised people?
Where has he developed a plan to state how he propoes to pay for all of this stuff? Anyone, anyone?
Goodtimesbadtimes,
Great Job on the facts! You know what you are talking about. Sadly, so many tea people don't understand economics
Thanks
Goodtimes, your reasoning is economically sound but there comes a point when the ability to increase revenue from job growth will be inadequate to address trillions and trillions of dollars of national debt. How many more years of trillion dollar plus deficits do you think our economy can withstand before collapsing?
joe, what do you think the fiscal cliff is? It'll either force the parties to work together and produce some real medicine or it'll force the deficit down with a sting and we'll live with that. Then we'll be forced to finish the job. It's a grander strategy than most are willing to accept.
I have no problem with the tax increase he is talking about on the wealthy of about 60 billion a year., just wondering where were are going to come up with the other 940 Billion.
Monopoly money
Yup - keep printing money. That'll fix us! smh
that is easy just cut the 1.7 trillion dollars that the US spends on foreign aid a year. along with that, and the raised taxes, and cancelling failed defense contracts, then the savings being put towards the deficit, you would start seeing it getting paid down.
Of course, eric1964, I suppose you can PROVE we give away $1.7 TRILLION a year ????????????
You do realize, that $940 Billion, is just to make a balanced budget - Obama was over by a $1Trillion ervery year -
What about paying down some of the $16Trillion in debt?
yes i can jim its listed on the .gov website for expenditures. you might want to take a look at it sometime. currently the united states is giving foreign aid to over 168 countries. usaid alone gives 58 billion in foreign aid, that is just one department in our govt. foreign aid is hidden in many other departments within our govt, ie state departemnt, agricultural dept, fema, fda etc. really do some digging on what our country is spending on foreign aid you will be surprised and dismayed.
Trillion or Billion ? I think you are bluffing.
skeptical, money is already in the budget to pay down the debt, and once this contest over how to solve the debt will be paid off, our credit rating will rise again. The agencies cited disbelief that we'd come to a decision in the time alloted as reason for credit rating degradation. Then, when the credit rating goes up, the interest falls, and look at that we're paying off more than double just based on interest rate change.
President Obama's optimism is good. We've been down this road before and had a committee produce a resolution. A year later, we've still haven't reached a deal or put out viable plans.
In summary, the work by Congress is not only incomplete, but late.
Meanwhile President Obama is pushing for $160B in annual revenue against $??? in cuts.
Am I reading this story correctly???? Is Obama saying in essence, let's do the tax increases now, then we will work on the deficit reductions next year?????? If so, it is exactly this attitude that has gotten us to the Fiscal Cliff, and in fact to this deficit as this has been Washington's attitude for decades....increase taxes and we'll get fiscally responsible later......
Please tell me I am reading this wrong!
Not exactly, he want the tax break's for the middle class extended now, let the rest expire. Then maybe work on the rest.
I think you are right on. How about start with a budget. Then cut spending, then ask the American people for more money based on a solid plan that will return us to solvency.
It's called "KICKING THE CAN AGAIN!"
Bill, I think I got it exactly correct. In fact, here is what Dick Durbin has to say about it....
"He made clear that the parties agreed on what a final deal would look like: an initial deficit-reduction down payment to calm financial markets and avoid most of the fiscal jolt that would otherwise hit in January; instructions to congressional committees to draft tax, spending and entitlement legislation to save around $4 trillion over the next decade; and some form of fallback deficit plan in case Congress fails to pass those changes.”
Isn't that exactly what we did when we approved the increase to the Debt Ceiling, and it didn't work then, which is why we are here now? Oh, so the answer is, once again, is to do what we have done before, which hasn't worked anytime we done it.....Brilliant
lemp-1487085
Do you actually believe that if Republicans get what they want first, that they will then go back to the table and talk revenues aka increased taxes?
Blackcat - Do you actually believe that if Democrats get what they want first, that they will then go back to the table and talk deficit reduction?
They have had a year to work on this issue and have done nothing but campaign.
Republicans will NEVER agree to voluntarily increase tax rates.
That's why this has to be done now. If the House does not come to an agreement, rates go up, very simple.
Democrats will NEVER agree to voluntarily reduce the deficit.
That's why this has to be done now. If the White House does not come to an agreement, the deficit will go up, very simple.
See how we can keep playing this game and both you and I are correct? The deal must include both aspects without a promise for anything in the future. DO IT NOW!!!!!
Since all of our taxes will go up if nothing is done, Obama is simply saying let's handle that issue right now, since even the GOP agrees that the taxes shouldn't be raised for 98% of the population. When the two parties agree on something, I say make it happen.
That's just it eph521, the GOP doesn't agree that the best approach is to raise taxes, but they seem to be willing to agree to it if the Dems agree to cuts. If the GOP caves on the taxes without getting an agreement on cuts, then they are idiots. It really isn't that hard, the GOP has put plans together to fix entitlements and reduce spending. So they GOP should say, we'll agree to your increased revenue, if you agree to our cuts. When neither side 100% likes eithers idea, then you sit down together and hammer out an agreement. Then pass a complete agreement, not 1/2 of one.
I say let the taxes go up! I am middle class and I don't see why someone that has worked hard and increased their income to over $250k should be taxed at any higher percentage than I am. The top 10% of earners already are paying 71% of the federal income. Do they have the means to pay more taxes, YES, they already do!
If a millionaire (1 million in income- $500K in Payroll, and $500k in dividend income) Pays about $175K in taxes (20% income tax on payroll after deductions and loopholes-$100K, and 15% on capital gains-75k)
If a middle class family makes $50k in Payroll living paycheck to paycheck then their tax burden is between 15% and 20% (10k before deductions and probably closer to $7.5k after deductions).
So the Millionaire is paying $175k in taxes and the middle class family is paying $7.5k in taxes.
Wake up - the wealthy are already paying more than you.
Aaahhh drip, out of the mouth of fools comes a rare Pearl of Wisdom .... Obama fully INTENDS to let the "Bush Tax Cuts" expire !!! Why do you think he only extended them until AFTER the elections ??????????
Mark, a flat tax rate would put the top 10% of earners paying less than 30% of taxes, and believe me that's not a bill the middle class can foot givn the irresponsibility of the federal reserve and GWB and the democrats who voted for repealment of Glass-Steagall. No, it wasn't Clinton's fault. A veto would have failed it had nearly 80% support across congress.
$250,000 is NOT rich. Raise rates on those making $1 million and more and it's a deal. Even Democrats like that idea. And DO NOT raise anything on a mere promise to address spending. We've had our fill of that Kool-aid from the whores in congress and the White House for way too long and from both parties. Cut spending, not just the rate of increased government spending!
$250K is very well off wherever you live in America. To say different is pure BS. The major cost of living difference anywhere is housing, so if your mortgage is $3,000 (Very nice house) in Manhattan or San Francisco, versus $2,000 in the Midwest that is a whopping $12K difference a year....in other words no big deal...and BTW, this isn't $250K gross it is $250K AGI......HUGE DIFFERENCE
Cut is right. I hate that they justify spending cuts as not escalating future expenditures. That is voodoo economics if you ask me. Present levels need to be cut. From million dollar studies of some obscure species of a damned bug to defense. Not too deep on the defense but studying bugs, supporting some obscure study of anything is a waste. Who the hell cares why it exists. It does so deal with it. It isn't like it is the space program and is going to breed all kinds of benefits for all of mankind.
How often in the past have we seen tax increases with promised spending cuts come to fruition. the cuts never materialized.
Talk to the Hand
Well Talk, here is the bitch in the bottle ... America's infrastructure is falling apart and spending will have to increase, and soon.
Well, we could do it the Republican way, make the tax cuts, then hide spending increases by saying they are not part of the budget. It worked for President Bush for 8 years. The debt still increased, but he did not have to report increased deficits in his budgets.
If you don't like facts, just don't report them: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/business/questions-raised-on-withdrawal-of-congressional-research-services-report-on-tax-rates.html
bcwc you don't have a dog in this hunt so worry about where you live K?
And as far as the spending having to start and soon, I agree but, we have to cut the BS funding of ridiculous arts and science projects (sex life of tree frogs etc.) that have no impact whatsoever on human life on earth. Funnel the money into important things. When times improve, we can once again fund frivolous projects "for science's sake". And while I know those like projects are a drop in the bucket money wise, the journey of 1000 miles starts with one step.
The Republican lawmakers from the Red, rural states are not going to be influenced by young people twittering & tweeting them using hashtags! These pot-bellied, grey haired old farts (like me) are answering to, & are connected to, fat old white people like themselves still using rotary phones. Remember, John McCain said that he didn't know how to use a computer!
You have been watching WAAAYYY too many movies and actually believe they are real !
Forrest Gump was NOT real.
It's time for new faces in congress..vote them all out and replace them with someone who will work for the people, not just their pocketbook. Reid is one of the first ones that needs to go. Crooked bastard that he is. Then the bitch, pelosi, for her ignorant statement about passing the healthcare law first and then figure out whats in it. And remember, she called us, the American people, terrorists. No more career politicians...term limits,,they pay their own healthcare, social security and retirement. And while we are at it,,,no more lobbyists.
No more lobbyists ? Then the GOP is dead.
Also, stop the senseless name calling.
he may have called them names but he is right!
The name calling does nothing for our country. It makes the person doing it look foolish and they're part of the problem. Not sure why anyone would defend it. It's wrong for both parties and their followers.
eazyray - no let's start with Boehner, Cantor, McConnel, Bachmann - all those who decided from day one of Obama's presidency to obstruct everything he attempted to do - to hell with the country. Then let's try them for treason. We can add all the rest of the GOP who signed pledges to Norquist as well as the 4 Democrats. Let's have elected officials who actually work FOR THE PEOPLE - not Grover Norquist!
I actually agree with you on this one...except that it is Pelosi, Reid, Boehner and McConnell who all need to step down, as there is too much bad blood between them to negotiate anything. Not that they are all bad, it is just time for someone new after the last two years of getting nothing done.
Unfortunately, we don't vote for the leadership directly, and they award these positions more by seniority than by merit.
Maybe we could TRY Obama for treason .... he has failed many times to support the EXISTING laws of our country, as he SWORE to do when inaugurated !
He IGNORED the legally-passed DOMA act because he didn't like it.
He IGNORED existing immigration law because he didn't like it.
He IGNORED the mandate for an annual budget as required by law, because he didn't like it.
Obama acts like a dictator because he wants to MANDATE what he wants and NOT work within the Constitution.
jim, obama ignored doma because it was passed unscrupulously and is immoral on all counts, and with him being the top level constitutional scholar he is, I'd bet my next 10 paychecks it's called unconstitutional by the SC, in which case he will have been right. Immigration you're right, but the budget is not his fault considering obstructionism ran at its peak and it became pointless to try and get anything fiscal done with the republicans except at gunpoint, hence the fiscal cliff. If he's a dictator he's damn responsible as one.
and where were you when it was proved in international tribunal bush falsified his intelligence on WMDs and got us into wars on false pretenses and then didn't pay for them?
Obama said he was open to new ideas, but keeps rejecting everything but his plan. That's not bipartisanship.
The Republicans have offered to increase revenue by capping deductions - they came to the middle. The Dems have become the Party of No.
Ma, what deductions, what cap, sound like the Romney plan with lots of trusts mes. Congress will never get that plan, whatever it is, in place before Dec. 31st, and then of course all the talk will be for nothing.
It's a pretty simple plan. All of the rates stay the same, and all the deductions will be the same, they will simply be capped at a certain dollar figure, so no one can claim an excessive amount of deductions. It has the same impact of raising there personal tax rate. There's no reason not to do it, except that the President isn't really interested in anything except a broad raise in rates.
mark, that plan exists in your head and nowhere else on the GOP lines with any backing from GOP en masse.
Not sure what your sources are, but that seems to be the main talk in the GOP at the moment that will allow them to save face.
Edit: well, unfortunately, the links I posted got stripped, but there's plenty of information out there about it.
What does balanced approach mean to this administration? All I hear is tax hikes for people >$250K as if a balanced aproach is how you spread taxes. What about low hanging fruit i.e. spending.
cuts in medicare/medicaid, and reforms on the aforementioned and on SS. Were you not paying attention over the last 3 months?
I think it's funny that the conservatives decry a tax increase on the very wealthy which could yield almost 100 billion dollars in revenue as paltry and pointless then cry a river about a few million to Planned Parenthood.
Conservative or not. What prudent individual would want to give our government more money without a budget, without spending cuts, a business plan if you will. Yes I expect our incompetent government to show responsibility before they ask any of us for more money.
First its not 100 billion its estimated at 840billion over TEN YEARS avg is 84 billion per year, when you have a ONE TRILLION deficit 84 billion ain't MUCH!!
WilliamOfRites
President Obama's push for additional revenue over ten years barely covers ONE annual budget deficit. Where are the SPENDING CUTS?
The balanced approach seems to be missing 50%.
What do you people think the fiscal cliff is? It's either gonna force the two parties to really compromise on both of their belief sets or it'll sting with the impact but it'll do the job.
SIMPLE EDUCATION FOR LIBS:
Mary had a garage sale to raise money. Marys daughter borrowed 100 bucks to buy back the things she wanted from that garage sell. At the end of the day, Mary was proud she made $100.00 bucks. Two weeks later when Mary had to pay her electricity bill she could not figure out why she had 100 bucks less then she thought she had to pay her bills. Now she is short more than 100 bucks because she now has a late charge, interest on her outstanding bill. Mary is now deeper in the hole and she cant figure out why. Mary resides in California, Mary is a state senator. You can replace Mary with anyone far left and the story ALWAYS plays out the same.
That in a nut shell is Obama's plan.
kamo - totally ignorant post. Most of the "far left" I know work and pay their bills. It is only the ignorant aon the far right who think otherwise and keep proving themselve to be the fools you clearly are!
Mary is a true story and lost her house to repo...Prior to getting sent to Sacramento she was a city counsel for the city of Long Beach.
Its not ignorant, it just dosnt fit in your apparent short term mind set ebcause you have NO way to defend the Obama econ.
Fools, yes, Im a fool, sitting here looking out my window waiting for the tide to change before I walk out of my house for a little noon surf session.
PS-There would be so much more money for worthy programs like better public education, help for seniors and low cost health care if the far left loons and far right nut jobs would quit trying to gain power instead start working for ALL Americans.
hate to tell you all this but kamo hit the nail on the head. we have so many wastefull programs that our tax dollars are going for. mostly because these programs are kick backs to campaign donaters. by the way this goes for both the democrats and the republicans currently in office. you wont ever see anything different happening in our country as long as you keep voting democrat or republican.
BOOOOOMMMMM ! Kamo 1, Seeking Sanity 0 ... as usual ! Cleanup in aisle 69, Seeking Sanity has made a mess of herself.
get rid of pork & state grazing rights, limit foodstamps to 60 days of recipience except for students (and enforce the correct usage), cap deductions to 50k, close loopholes, reform medicare/medicaid/ss, bring the troops home, trim the defense budget by at least 10% based on waist alone; and yes, 1% increase in taxes for all! Forgot to mention cutting 95% of all foreign aid.
Maybe expand our drilling operations and secede from global oil, but only on the compromise big oil will pay for, and not crush via leverage, research into alternate energy considering Koch, BP, Shell, and others used short-sales and leverage cleanouts to bankrupt solyndra and others.
Obama is optimistic when he insists on tax rate raises on the wealthy which is a poison pill to the Reps in the House? Typical extreme position held by both parties who are open to compromise only on their terms. Pointless. Hope everyone has a parachute as we go base jumping.
Only one ay to solve it. Do away with all deductions for everyone, stop all government subsidies, stop all foreign aid, do away with discretionary government spending, if there is no budget inplace before the year begins cut the previous budget by 10% and allow no changes once the year begins, and do not allow congress to pass anything that does not apply to EVERYONE or pass anything that doesn't take effect during thier term of office.
Common sense tells us that the decision to create more jobs does not depend on whether the individual top tax bracket is increased back to 39.6%.
Where are the jobs that Bush’s “temporary” tax cuts in 2001 were supposed to have created ? Because of Bush’s misguided wars and wall street policies millions of jobs were permanently destroyed.
Since Republicans are so concerned about the tax burden of “small business owners” it should be pointed out that 95% of small business owners do not make over $250,000 a year.
Job creation does not depend on whether the top tax rate is raised back from 35% to 39.6%, but rather whether there is a demand for the product to be produced. The 99% of us will have to generate that demand, not the top 1%.
Therefore, Republicans should break this stupid Norquist tax pledge and
move the country back from the “fiscal cliff“.
If this Norquist does not like to pay his fair share of taxes he might want to consider to move to a tax heaven like the Cayman Islands, the favorite place to deposit profits earned in the USA. Remember Romney.
Those jobs are in the same place where BO-Dumbo's promises of 5.4% Unemployment and reducing the deficit and reducing the debt all to be done in his first term!
paying for 2 unfunded wars, medicare part D, and enormous inflation due to the federal reserve's irresponsibility. Then, obstructionism. He's done well for what he's had to work with.
Mr. President, don´t negotiate with Republicans if they don´t want to increase taxes on the wealthy, just let the fiscal cliff come in, nothing will really happen, it is all nonsense what economists are predicting, the world is not going to crumble at all. Let the increase to become law, the republicans have no power in the world to stop that from happening then next year star working your way back to lower taxes on the middle class only. Voila, end of all this nonsense and start focusing on ways to create more jobs and to make the economy just as great as it has ever been I know you are 100% capable of doing it.
Yes, we do need new faces in congress. Ones who care about their country first, even before self and very much so before their party. I truly do not see anyone out there to fill the bill. But, with the expense of elections any more, only the "ME FIRST" crowd can afford it. So I guess we'll always be stuck with f**k faces in congress.
Love n Peace,
Da Pup
>:o):
Yep, Oboma says it's his way, or no way; And that's Final! Thanks Democrats, our taxes will go up and our deductions will go down, and the administration gets to continue to Spend, Spend, Spend! That's a win, win, for all of us! {:-(}
What did the Republicans under Bush do? Tax windfall for the rich, and spend, spend, spend !
123Juno If you think it was the REP.s who spend here are the Fed BUDGET take a look and see who really spent.
2013 United States federal budget - $3.8 trillion (submitted 2012 by President Obama)
2012 United States federal budget - $3.7 trillion (submitted 2011 by President Obama)
2011 United States federal budget - $3.8 trillion (submitted 2010 by President Obama)
2010 United States federal budget - $3.6 trillion (submitted 2009 by President Obama)
2009 United States federal budget - $3.1 trillion (submitted 2008 by President Bush)
2008 United States federal budget - $2.9 trillion (submitted 2007 by President Bush)
2007 United States federal budget - $2.8 trillion (submitted 2006 by President Bush)
2006 United States federal budget - $2.7 trillion (submitted 2005 by President Bush)
2005 United States federal budget - $2.4 trillion (submitted 2004 by President Bush)
2004 United States federal budget - $2.3 trillion (submitted 2003 by President Bush)
2003 United States federal budget - $2.2 trillion (submitted 2002 by President Bush)
2002 United States federal budget - $2.0 trillion (submitted 2001 by President Bush)
freaky those numbers are not really accurate. you do realize that bush did not include the iraq and afghanistan war in his budget while in office. when obama got into office he put those two wars on the books. why some dumbass would run a war on a credit card is beyond me. in the past we have always raised over all taxes when we have been at war. isnt it the patriotic duty for all our citizens, to pay more in taxes, to cover the cost of sending our soldiers off to war?
Apparenlty it's just the Patriotic Duty of the wealthiest Americans to have their taxes raised. Isn't that what Dems are saying right now? And no, I'm not rich. Earn $30k a year. I think "all" share the burden.
Whatever it takes to "level the playing field". :)
Don't the top need to come down and the bottom be raised up?
I've heard the phrase "All men are created equal" a lot recently. NO, they are not.
so kansas my wife and i are in the middle class bracket. we pay in 35% of our income a year in taxes. trust fund babies and ceo's pay in 14% or less. how is that equal or fair?
I am just below that 2% cut-off. I paid 28% last year. Romney paid 14%.
There needs to be a MINIMUM tax paid at that upper level. In fact, bring me up to 35% right along with them.
I will adjust my budget and consider I am doing something for the good of the whole country. Just like the 20 years of military service I did.
And I may be a fool, but I do not deduct my charitable contributions. I believe charity should be anonymous whenever possible, and getting something in return (deduction) makes it not charity.
I gotta tell ya', I am so sick and tired of all the self-centered hatefulness, I have begun looking at foriegn countries for the last years of my life. If this country goes down, it will be because of selfish lack of sharing and cooperation.....not some force from the outside.
eric and tom how soon you guys forget. Romney is paying on capital gains from money ALREADY TAXED when earned and now just bringing in dividends from investments. He isn't earning income anymore other than that. Now, you want some cheese?
talk to the hand interest earned is still income in my book. why should someone pay less on taxes for interest then i do for the money that i bust my butt to make. paying twice on taxes is a falacy. income earned is income earned no matter if it is from interest or a 60 hour work week.
He already put in his "sixty hour work weeks" years ago and was probably taxed higher on that income than what you are now. You invest your hard earned money and make it work like he does and you too can pay 14%.
Rich envy much?
BTW, my wife and I make around $70K combined and neither one of us, nor anyone I work with, begrudge him or any other person with the money they worked hard for nor the taxes they pay on it. Typical occupier. You got yours now gimme some of it. It isn't fair. WAAAAHHHH.
talk, romney never put in a 50 hour work week much less 64. He was handed his position by his father. He's a self-entitled silverspoon with 0 perspective.
President POS has no intention of reducing deficits or spending. His tax plan for the rich may raise as much as $100 billion at the most which is a drop in the bucket to his overall spending. There will be no spending cuts but there will be taxes and malaise for everyone.
President Obama has reduced the deficit from Bush's 2009 $1,430 Billion
2010 $1,293
2011 $1,300
2012 $1,089
and 12 is projected at $901BB
So obama has cumulatively reduced $608BB
but don't let facts get in the way of your argument.
I knew there were plenty of people out there like you that are stupid enough to defend Obama's endless $ trillion deficits. Thank you for reinforcing the stupidity of the average democrat.
Hey Star. why dont you leave with Texas? You sound just as stupid
Hey palm springs, are you in California ? Have you guys declared bankruptcy ... yet ??
Please tell us how smart you are in handling fiscal matters ! We are eager for your expertise !!
Hey TB, let me guess, you voted for President POS. That's how f@#$%&* stupid you are.
TS, I'm no genius but I was smart enough to not vote for Myth RomMany! The "it's not my job to worry about those people" you know the people he supposedly wanted to govern. Thank God it's never going to be his job!
Let's see now, a successful businessman compared to a community organizer Marxist failed president that doesn't have a clue how to do anything other than f@#$ everything up. Wow, that's a tough decision. Unfortunately it's not one the leftist parasites have the brains to make.
GWB and clinton's congress @!$%#ed this up. And romney was far from a successful businessman. He was handed his position by his father and barely worked 30 hour weeks and used leverage buyouts just like bain has been doing for decades. At least obama responsibly put the wars on the budget, put medicare part d on the budget, developed escape plans for those wars, and has managed to get small cuts through, but partisan obstructionism has gotten in the way even when he bent over backwards with the 4 for 1 deal.
Obama never worked a day in his life before he was elected. He was too busy with communist party activities. Obama has no budget or plans, only continuing resolutions and that is all you'll see for the mirror of the last four pathetic years in the next four pathetic years.
Obama has his plans perfectly well available on his website like romney showed during the election. The big difference, his isn't filled with more than enough jargon and legalise to choke a whale. And he is enormously far from being a communist. Labor parties in europe think he's way too conservative, and they are communists. Obama has put forth budgets each year. Just because they don't pass doesn't mean he lacks a plan. It means people don't see the sense in it, which, when we are discussing congress, is not that much of a surprise.
So the democrat dumbf@#$ controlled senate is a bunch of fools, thank you for supporting that statement. Obama has offered no plans of any kind other than tax,spend,tax,spend,tax,spend.
No he did not win this election with educated people. It won with sheeple and the highly
un-educated and indoctrinated, and takers you know the give me free chit folks.
The educated did not vote for this POS and his goons...
There is no cliff to fall from.. Only more Gov power over the people.
You don't sound well educated yourself.
LT you just keep up the good work of criticizing "ALL" Liberals as, Myth RomMany said, People that will never take responsibility for themselves. That Faux News and Lush Rimbaw paranoid, petty, selfish BS is what got Waffling Willard's @ss beat and what will get any RepubliCON beat again in "14".
So PLEASE! Keep up the good work!
Abe Lincoln is rolling over in his grave, his worst fear is realized... Illegal aliens and Liberal's are voting for entitlements. They want all the free government s hit they can get their greedy little finger on. They are just to stupid to realize that it isn't free, it is owned by China.
Most American's do not even know what China's currency is called, but they should get very familiar with it. We will soon be using China's dollar...
Dear cheesy, quit being so paranoid. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. California's economy alone is almost as big as all of China's. Get some help, now, before it's too late.
Cheesy, that would be the Yuan Reminbi, which is still kept at an artificially low rate.
Typical Liberal response, "You dont know what you are talking about..." All the while our debt has risen from 10 to 16 Trillion dollars...
There is one big difference between China and California. California is almost broke...
Oh, it's no problem, just keep spending until we are bankrupt...
John Colorado said "You don't have a clue what you're talking about. California's economy alone is almost as big as all of China's. Get some help, now, before it's too late."
Baloney. China's GDP is 3X California's. Someone doesn't know what they're talking about...and it's you.
despite the fact I often disagree with him, JR is correct on this one. California is bigger than Japan, but nowhere near as large as china.