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Subscribe to RSSIn the early talks to avert the so-called "fiscal cliff," congressional Republicans are taking a page straight out of the summer 2011 playbook -- going back to the negotiations during the showdown over the debt ceiling.
That July, House Speaker John Boehner and President Obama came close to a "Grand Bargain" on a wide scale bipartisan deficit-reduction plan. The outline of that plan did not raise taxes, but reportedly found up to $800 billion in new revenue by closing tax loopholes and eliminating deductions. The plan also called for entitlement reform with changes to Medicare and Social Security.
On Nov. 11th, Bob Woodward presented the White House’s final offer from that time on Meet the Press:
"This is a confidential document, last offer the president -- the White House made last year to Speaker Boehner to try to reach this $4 trillion grand bargain. And it's long and it's tedious and it's got budget jargon in it. But what it shows is a willingness to cut all kinds of things, like TRICARE, which is the sacred health insurance program for the military, for military retirees; to cut Social Security; to cut Medicare. And there are some lines in there about, "We want to get tax rates down, not only for individuals but for businesses." So Obama and the White House were willing to go quite far."
GOP aides tell NBC News that a central tenet of the GOP strategy in these current negotiations is to remind the president of just how far he was willing to go in July of 2011, especially when it comes to entitlements.
Today, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said there’s been “little progress” on the fiscal cliff and claimed that Social Security would not be part of any deal. A Democratic aide tells NBC News that their early strategy centers upon not capitulating to intransigent GOP demands regarding tax rates.
As the adage goes, elections have consequences. And Democrats believe that Obama's re-election -- as well as picking up additional Senate and House seats -- has strengthened their negotiating hand. After all, those 2011 "grand bargain" negotiations came after the GOP's thumping of Democrats in the 2010 midterms.
Still, one component of the talks that GOP aides circle back to -- if President Obama truly wants to accomplish big things in his second term (such as immigration reform or an infrastructure bank), how these "fiscal cliff" negotiations go will set a precedent for future cooperation.
Their feeling is that the president’s tone this Friday during his first public rally regarding the fiscal cliff will be telling of how conciliatory he’ll be in the talks.
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one for...anyone that does not work! Great idea, lets also cut off one ball for any man who works and give it to the left wing broads that want to be equal. This is idiotic!!
It seems to me that from a practical standpoint there is no point and no future in Obama negotiating or trying to negotiate with republicans in congress. 70% of the people surveyed believe that if we go over the cliff it will be their fault. If I were Obama I would stand pat. If economists and the white house are correct then it will be catastrophic. Obama will then have a new set of republicans to deal with. If they are wrong and nothing happens it hurts him little and he cannot run for another term anyway. If I were in his position I think I would feel like I was in the cat bird's seat.
as I recall, Obama kept the tax cut for the rich last time for the sake of extended unemployment bennies.
I think people give him to little credit for not just loving his country, but also the people in it.
It does not seem likely that he will willingly let the country sink lower just to score points.
At some point those of you who support the tea party must speak out to your elected rep. and tell them to get the job done.
If it were just about letting the tax cuts expire, I would not be concerned about that. I don't mind a return to my former tax rate. That is the meaning of temporary.
However there are other issues that must be considered
WILL THIS CAUSE ANOTHER DOWNGRADE IN THE CREDIT RATING
WILL THE WORLD DUMP THE US DOLLAR AS IT'S STANDARD
These two issues could devastate our nation and put us into chaos.
The republican party could care less about anyone except their righteous rich friends. When the republicans finally ruin this country, they will blame everyone but themselves !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ron, 70% of what people...an NBC poll? To be practical, the revenue from taxing the upper income earners will not have much impact on the overall problem. I know that you will dispute this, but the revenue will only be effective for a week or two. The left has no intention of any meaningful spending cuts, except for defense. When you say "negotiating", by definition both side work to achieve a solution. Your great leader will not consider anything unless he gets all that he wants. It is almost childish...except for the fact that he will ruin the lives of EVERYONE for years to come just to get his way. I do not believe that he is really interested in the well being of this Great Country...only his socialistic agenda. I'm not too concerned about me, I am concerned for our kids!! 2014 cant come soon enough. When the people who voted him back in realize what they have done, we will start to rebuild.
The best thing that could possibly happen is for us to take the plunge, then start from scratch. Frankly, I don't think the greater masses give a $hit if the Defense budget is cut by $600-billion and that is the only issue that makes Republican eyes water. Knowing our annual deficits, I don't believe the greater masses strongly object to the tax rate reductions expiring. While there will be consequences ~ and some could be initially severe ~ this "fiscal cliff" scenario accomplishes the goals of both parties in that it drastically cuts spending while generating much needed revenue. I'm enjoying watching Republicans twist in the wind over sequesters ~ ~ ~ since it was Republicans who drafted those radical spending cuts but are now getting hit in the ass with them.
If Obama wants to have any legacy at all, he had better get Reed and Pelosi in line. Its OK to be patriotic about deficit reduction and out of control spending. Please quit with the "we have a mandate" bull$%^&. Far from the truth. The reality is both sides need to quit playing to their base. I would think that most level headed Americans would think tax reform (closing loopholes, limiting deductions) combined with spending cuts is a fair and balanced approach. Even the number 2 Democratic senator (Durbin) has embraced this. Someone had better check Reed's medication; he sounds deranged.
There is the side of the republican record that keeps playing the same song...."I protect the interests of my wealthy friends"! They do not care if we, the average american, falls off a cliff and croak, as long as the wealthy americans are appeased and their loot protected. "Job Creation" is so much of a bull propaganda and rhetoric that we; the average americans, are ready to puke every time we hear it. They just keep up their bullish way and bull talk as we float down the river to drown. America, it is time to begin a crusade against these rich political players and obstructionists of our livelihood. Round them up and take away their voice. Down with these republican backstabbers of American well being and equality!
...and equality is something promised by our American forefathers. It is the right not to have equal say, equal rights, and equal capabilities to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The way we are going, the rich will be lavishly surrounded by the above and the rest will be suffering without it..health included. By raising the tax on the wealthiest, it may only "HELP...understand that, "HELP", with our healthcare, infrastructure, ammenities and more that thereby "ALL AMERICANS" are equally attended to.
Straight...What about the rich DEM bullies. They are OK as long as they share the same agenda as you. That is bull$hit!!! It is the same old story with you left wing nuts...take and give. Why the hell do you not believe in WORKING for a living. This is why you say "job creation" is bull. Are you too stupid to see that the money will run out!!! Equality means that everyone should have the same opportunity to prosper. You think that it means that everyone should have the same stuff...whether it is earned of taken from one and given to another. You are misguided and should lay off the Kool-aide.
look above you and below you and you are the pickle in the middle with the hindsight of one!
CT........Where to start with this one?
You talk about working for a living, but the fact is that red states are the takers and blue states are the givers.
It is us hard working, tax paying Democrats who are supporting you worthless welfare queen republicons.
And then there are the job creators. You republicons claim it is your aristocracy that are the job creators. Well, after 30 years of tinkle upon economics all that has happened is money being socked away in the Cayman Islands and Swiss bank accounts. And the Great Recession.
History shows that it is the Average Joe who is the real job creator. FDR put Americans to work with his stimulus called the New Deal and was rewarded with 9% growth for years. Ike did the same thing when he built the hiway system.
There is another stimulus plan modelled on the New Deal sitting on Boner's desk right now. Pass it! Build America! Why are you against a 9% growth rate?
Every poll shows that when people see their taxes skyrocket in January they will blame the republicans for not compromising with the president. They will realize they are being held hostage as a negotiating tactic again by the party of NO and they will take their anger out on the teabagger congressmen. It will be fun to watch! Congress will have an approval rating of 5%.
Sharky..nice try...the American people are much smarter than that....the GOP has already put revenue on the table. All the news coverage I have seen shows Reed to be the one putting the brakes on. Please take a civics lesson and realize the POTUS does not write bills; the bills start in the House. We are not worried in the least. The GOP will control the House for the next four years. Deal with it.
They will control for 2 years and be tossed out in 2014 if they get in the way of compromise.
There really is no longer any reason to compromise with the party of NO! They have already said that they intend to hold America hostage to their extortion again, just like in 2011 when they got our credit rating downgraded.
Ignore their temper tantrum and throw them over the cliff.
You can tax the top 2% up to 100% and it will not fix anything with both sides of the isle spending our money like they are. If they magic number is 4 trillion I think we should get there by half coming from tax increase and the other half form reduction in spending. The tax increase should be from the elimination of the Bush tax cuts and reduction of the earned income credit. The reduction in spending needs to be real reductions not the shell game they try to play on us.
Why do we let them play us like this. Can't you people see that both side are playing us like we sheep? Their plan is to get us to fight amongst ourselves so we don’t notice them being the power hungry out for themselves #$%#$^ that they are.
CT-Obama is not "my guy" and I did not vote for him. I would not vote for Romney either. I am not talking about the practical effects of lowering or raising taxes or keeping or doing away with deductions. I am merely pointing out that Obama is in a much better position than republicans in congress. I think the one thing the two parties have in common is their incompetence and lack of concern about screwing the public. I have noticed we are all going to suffer except people in congress, the white house and their employees. Of course, people who are wealthy enough will not suffer either. They are talking about raising their taxes 3% and they act like they are gut shot. Thank God the country did not need the last couple of generations to step up for anything. They would have spent all of their time argueing about whether they were doing more than their share.
Tax policy is important. I for one would not mind increased income tax rates for those above 250K. However, a lot of successful small business folks are in that bracket and if those new taxes inhibit new business formation or expansion then that would be on the democrats to take responsibility for. Fat chance. Capital gains taxes should remain reasonable as the capital that makes up an investment has already been taxed once as income. If capital gains tax rates are pushed too high then there is no incentive to take the risk of investing. Money in the bank or brokerage account doesn't help spur new business at all. Now entitlements- if the estimate that on average folks take three times out of the SS fund what they put in then benefits need to be capped. Democrats need to agree with that. Again fat chance. As long as people will demand end of life care that reaches into $100,000 and up for a couple of extra weeks of compromised living then Medicare can't operate as intended. It needs to be capped. I know of what I speak as I went through it with my dad and I'm sure a lot of others (60+) on this blog share similar experiences with their parents passing. The funny thing is older folks, older than me (63) are adamant about getting their maximum benefits whether they need it or not. Selfishness form people my late parents age is very puzzling to me.
Westguy quote: "The funny thing is older folks, older than me (63) are adamant about getting their maximum benefits whether they need it or not. Selfishness from people my late parents age is very puzzling to me."
You can't speak for the elder because you're not there yet, Westguy. Once you have to rely on Medicaid/Medicare as your primary care, you'll understand a lot more. And don't say you never will ... unless you're one of the lucky ones to have a company retiree health plan. My father left my mom over half a million $$ when he passed, and we thought that was enough for mom until she passed. That was 17 years ago, my mom is 91 now, host of medical issues, and she ate through that half Mil $ in less than 8 years, and now she's in a nursing home for the last 7 years, still alive but bed ridden.
What you ought to be doing is writing your congressman and insisting that Congress & the POTUS work on eliminating a huge chunk of the $720 billion + in medicare/medicaid fraud that takes place yearly. I didn't hear ONE Republican candidate talk about fixing entitlement fraud even ONCE during the Republican primaries, and only heard Pres Obama talk about entitlement fraud twice. Imagine if the government could set up a system that would eliminate even half ($360 billion) of entitlement fraud! The problem with our government has always been implimenting government services THEN not administrating them properly. i.e. When reconstruction was taking place in Iraq following withdrawal, the USA was sending pallets of US dollars (by the millions) to Iraq to help them with reconstruction. As of right now, the government can not account for over 95% of the money sent to Iraq. No accountability took place. Same with entitlements and everything else ... no accountability is the problem. That's what needs to be FIXED.
Listen folks, until the Republicans quit selling their souls to the devil Grover Norquist, they're not going to intelligently negotiate anything. What the Republicans are NOT revealing is that these so-called loopholes is primarily the mortgage deduction, which would impact ALL taxpayers, not just the super rich 2%ers. So these guys aren't offering ANYTHING because they know the Democrats would not remove the mortgage deduction. The President said all year, and even when he signed the extension to the Bush TaxCuts, he would NOT extend them for the rich again ... yet Grover holds his little weekly meetings with Republicans to hold the line or "ELSE" you'll pay at the next election. Well, I got news for the Republicans, they WILL pay at the next election ... Boehner knows he may just be looking for another job after 2014. Once Democrats control Congress in 2014, they'll reverse the Citizen's United decision, and some normalcy might return to these ReThuglicans.
And now, they're starting this whole thing again with the debt ceiling. Didn't have a problem doing it for Reagan 17 times ... or Bush 7 times. Of course then Cheney said "deficits don't matter" ... and when his Treasury secty, Paul O'Neill spoke up about more tax cuts for the wealthy, Cheney had him fired.
Republicans ... "TrickleDown Economics does NOT WORK for the middleclass" ... for the umpteenth time. It never has, and it never will. Cutting taxes for the wealthy does NOT create middleclass jobs, it only creates a larger national debt. For god's sake, do SOMETHING different from the last 30+ years, will ya?
Don't kid yourself, the Republicans will come through with a deal for the fiscal cliff to kick the can down the road and put a small dent in the deficit/debt problem. This is in both parties best interest. The politically unsolvable issue is coming up with a comprehensive, across the board plan to really get the deficit/debt under control including additional revenues for the long term. This is too painful for the American people so the politicians will not be able to pull it off. We are past the point of no return or no political solution. The markets and other countries will eventually deal with the problem. This could be such things as a collapse of the dollar or very high long term interest rates that strangle the economy and Government. It will be very ugly and watch Greece and some other European countries for a look at one possible future for the USA. Pictures of tent cities and food lines from the great depression are another possible future.
Every segment of American society is telling Congress to compromise but the republican party is still taking it's orders from Grover Norquist. Going over the cliff will solve the problem and get America focused on replacing the remaining teabaggers in 2014.
Obama got most of his legislation done in his first two years, when the Dems had the majority in both houses. If the GOP keeps up this crap, he will get most of his second term legislation done in the last two years after the Dems retake the House (and maybe a super majority in the Senate).
Let them keep it up, it will simply cost them even MORE seats next election.
Sooner or later we are making the trip over the cliff anyway. Go back to the tax rates in 2000. Never should have been cut until the debt was paid off anyway.
The debt should never be paid off. It's only necessary to end the big deficts and resume 3% economic growth.
Maybe....But you do want to pay it down. If interest rates just go to 6 percent we will be paying over a trillion dollars a year just to service the debt. THAT money could go to tax cuts....huh
Hey Folks, I just thought of something here ... isn't it WONDERFUL that we're able to come to these forums without discussing Mitt Romney & Paul Ryan? Think about it ... isn't it wonderful? I'm serious! NOTHING about the Bobbsey Twins ... isn't this a WONDERFUL LIFE? Life is GOOD!
Press the UP ARROW if you agree! LOL God, I love it! I can breathe again!
yeah.....the constant flip flopping drove me nuts.
The reduction in US credit rating was the fiscal cliff the republican party drove us over before in order to make the point that they did not want their wealthy global sponsors to lose their tax cuts and avoid market regulation that was sold to americans as the way tinkle down economics can work. The more wealth they could keep from democratically elected and chosen representatives and programs would allow them to tinkle more down. Combine that with the fiasco of unfunded trillion dollar wars and unpaid for drugs for their elderly voters, the republican brand is simply a bad joke. The problem I see, is that at this point they have nothing to lose since they have already lost credibility with the voters of the future, and they may try to double down on the lack of policy and starve the beast mentality that AM radio listeners love to hear. They can still drive this country over the cliff in the name of their failed ideology of the free market represents the one true god, god willing. If they say that increasing taxes on the wealthy will not make a difference in our debt, then we can all agree more has to be done, including just getting rid of those temporary tax cuts. It is hardly surprising that reducing taxes over the past decades has correlated with increased debt. Tax cuts do not work for a functioning democracy. Repeat, tax cuts do not work. Hope that everyone remembers who dug their heels in to keep from going over the cliff and who will drive us over the edge in spite. Crying Boner and lieing Cantor cannot hide behind Romney anymore even though I have enjoyed not seeing their crying and lieing for almost a year.
cdugga..I expected to hear most of your talking points on a liberal website, but let me give you the Republican viewpoint. You can't ignore the fact that the Obama administraton added over 5 million to to the debt over the last four years. It was his spending. The Republicans got 49% of the popular vote so we have plenty of credibility with the voters. I/we have nothing against revenue increases as long as we have corresponsing spending cuts. All economists agree we can't tax are way out of this mess. Even the number two Democrat in the Senate (Durbin) agress that everything needs to be on the table for spending cuts. If we don't get a deal done, it will be more Reeds fault than anyone as he doesn't want to cut spending. Most sane Americans will soon realize that Democrats would spend us into oblivion if they were allowed to.
The republicans got 47% of the vote. Go back to school.
NOTICE TO EVERYONE READING THIS: Begin now talking to your friends and neighbors about RECALLING EVERY Republican member of Congress----House and Senate. Start today! The country has it with these people! Bring them home and elect people to Congress who represent the sensible people of this Republic and tell the poorly educated, far right wing, extremist, fanatics to crawl back into their evil, sinister, holes from which they emerged!
If they mess with OUR MONEY, SOCIAL SECURITY or MEDICARE they better prepare for some big troubles that will be brought on by the 99% American People! There is plenty of money in SOC. SEC. until 2030!! And after that, there's still better than 75% left for distribution! MEDICARE IS A DONE DEAL! We, the 99% American People deserve it!!
What I don't understand is that Boehner claims that all the people who make over $250,000 are actually small business owners. But if you are a small business owner and make over $250,000 a year then you should be Incorporated because that is too much to be making on a business that is not incorporated and therefore not protected as a company. That doesn't make any sense to me. If you are a business owner then again this is the salary you are getting from the company and not the company profit. Therefore that should not make a difference in your hiring. The profit margin would make a difference in your hiring abilities.
This is what happens when people vote for repuglicans and teabaggers. Stop doing that, and we'll get rid of the "fiscal cliffs," "budget crises," gridlock, and obstructionism. Because some fools chose to keep repuglicans in power in the House, we now have to put up with Boehner and his shenanigans through the 2014 elections. If there's any justice, we'll finally get rid of the repuglican majority in that election and can actually start the country moving forward. That will be a wonderful turn of events. I can't wait until the GOP (Greedy Old People) are out of power once and for all.
How many realize that letting the country go over the fiscal cliff absolves the perpetrators of the betrayal of Grover Norquist, allowing the pledgees to say they didn't vote for the higher taxes now kicking in. With St. Grover mollified, the schemers would have us believe his backers would give them so much money the Democrats would have no ad time to buy (that was Karl Rove's error- only getting $330 million in ad money).
Right after the election an editor for Time stated that we would go over the cliff for the following reason:
As the cliff imposes automatic tax increases and spending cuts, going over the cliff allows our politicians to claim victory ex post facto. By reducing taxes after the automatic expiration of the Bush and Obama tax cuts, Republicans can claim they cut taxes. By restoring some spending caused by the sequester, Democrats can claim they restored needed spending. Never mind that this will roil the markets, etc., it is all about "winning" (in this case in the Charlie Sheen way, though that's not what either side intends). Sad, but likely true.
NOTICE TO EVERYONE READING THIS: Begin now talking to your friends and neighbors about RECALLING EVERY Republican member of Congress----House and Senate. Start today! The country has it with these people! Bring them home and elect people to Congress who represent the sensible people of this Republic and tell the poorly educated, far right wing, extremist, fanatics to crawl back into their evil, sinister, holes from which they emerged!