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Subscribe to RSSIn the early talks to avert the so-called "fiscal cliff," congressional Republicans are taking a page straight out of the summer 2011 playbook -- going back to the negotiations during the showdown over the debt ceiling.
That July, House Speaker John Boehner and President Obama came close to a "Grand Bargain" on a wide scale bipartisan deficit-reduction plan. The outline of that plan did not raise taxes, but reportedly found up to $800 billion in new revenue by closing tax loopholes and eliminating deductions. The plan also called for entitlement reform with changes to Medicare and Social Security.
On Nov. 11th, Bob Woodward presented the White House’s final offer from that time on Meet the Press:
"This is a confidential document, last offer the president -- the White House made last year to Speaker Boehner to try to reach this $4 trillion grand bargain. And it's long and it's tedious and it's got budget jargon in it. But what it shows is a willingness to cut all kinds of things, like TRICARE, which is the sacred health insurance program for the military, for military retirees; to cut Social Security; to cut Medicare. And there are some lines in there about, "We want to get tax rates down, not only for individuals but for businesses." So Obama and the White House were willing to go quite far."
GOP aides tell NBC News that a central tenet of the GOP strategy in these current negotiations is to remind the president of just how far he was willing to go in July of 2011, especially when it comes to entitlements.
Today, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said there’s been “little progress” on the fiscal cliff and claimed that Social Security would not be part of any deal. A Democratic aide tells NBC News that their early strategy centers upon not capitulating to intransigent GOP demands regarding tax rates.
As the adage goes, elections have consequences. And Democrats believe that Obama's re-election -- as well as picking up additional Senate and House seats -- has strengthened their negotiating hand. After all, those 2011 "grand bargain" negotiations came after the GOP's thumping of Democrats in the 2010 midterms.
Still, one component of the talks that GOP aides circle back to -- if President Obama truly wants to accomplish big things in his second term (such as immigration reform or an infrastructure bank), how these "fiscal cliff" negotiations go will set a precedent for future cooperation.
Their feeling is that the president’s tone this Friday during his first public rally regarding the fiscal cliff will be telling of how conciliatory he’ll be in the talks.
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Rinse - Repeat & Spin!
Simply stunning! lol
If it wasn't for BAD ideas, these clowns wouldn't have ANY!
When will they come to terms with the FACT they were shellacked 3 weeks ago and Democrats are back in the drivers seat?
Why do right wing nut jobs insist on living in the PAST? lol
maybe you can bullet point Obama's plan. Do you even know yourself what his plan is aside from raising taxes on the 1% (250k a year is 1%?). Come on Feisty you can do it. oh im on 'ignore' i forgot. Lets see things need to change and hardcore FR posters believe only a certain class should be taxed into oblivion (save Obama donors of course) and no real cuts or fixes needed. Simple huh Feisty.
:0)
What is it with this party?! They are nothing if not stubborn to change. To their peril I say!
Stay on track, Mr. President! Compromise but please do not let that party call the shots! You are the one that America put back in charge! Do us proud!
Alaska Girl,
For starters, they still aren't willing to admit they got their asses spanked a couple of weeks ago...
All the "huffing & puffing" from the minority can be entertaining... at times! lol
Then they should of taken the deal when it was offered! Times have a changed...
No kidding! Yes, it can be entertaining, but it is also extremely frustrating. It feels like de ja vu all over again! I sure hope the Republicans realize that what they are and are not doing is going to be a direct reflection upon them, especially in 2014, so they had better wise up. I am really sick and tired of this crap.
Feisty and Alaska - I think we will see a complete obliteration of the GOP in 2014. Intelligent people are more than tired of their antics and their arrogance.
The party of no, or hell no has become the party of maybe. Same Ol' Sh!t different day. Lets all get the pity press out and stamp out a few republicans. If they do not compromise it will be remembered in 14 and beyond. First thing first is to shut McConnell out and pass filibuster reform. If the R's want to take us over the cliff so be it. Everyone agrees that more taxes are needed and cuts are needed also. But leave S.S. and Medicare alone or fully fund it, and cut the over bloated military budget.
we are over a 'cliff' right now, we all need to take a giant step forward....
I mean a step in finding a solution to the fiscal cliff, not taking a step and then falling into the cliff...
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but which step, it really depends on their political skills - as the saying goes...politics is an art of the possible ... be an artist ... best of luck. Or we will see all of you inside a dark cliff.
FR:the GOP strategy in these current negotiations is to remind the president of just how far he was willing to go in July of 2011, especially when it comes to entitlements.
LOL, the GOP/ Tea Potty have already shown what's in their hearts last. I can't wait to see their a**es hit rock bottom. What goes around comes around. In January we get new Senators and Representatives.
Bon voyage; Tea baggers
No Pigotry - we are NOT over. We are going to move through this and come out better! Much better!!!
Unless there are a bunch of millionaires and billionaires posting comments on here, can someone please tell me why some of the questionable people(that means you Republicans of questionable intelligence) posting comments on here are so hard core about making sure that the top 2% don't get their taxes raised? Do they seriously believe that by defending them that those in the 2% will shower them with love and gifts of gratitude? What part of "they don't give a @!$%# about you or me" do they not get? These are my questions. These are the questions that have me scratching my head on a daily basis. And, hey, Republicans! Don't give me the stock answer that lower taxes on the wealthy means more jobs. That crap is false. We know it. You've been brainwashed!
Hey,
Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL
I agree. Time has changed..but some republicans try to pretend as if nothing has changed.
If these conservatives are true conservatives, then they have to 'change in order to conserve.' Or they will get the same fate as that of the French Bourbon Monarchy in the Frenchy Revlotuon or the Romanovs in the Russian October Revolution.
.
Actually it's a British philosopher - Edmund Burke who said that true conservatives are willing to change to conserve...his ideas were taken from te French Revolution when the monarchists were unwilling to adapt to changing times. Then they disappeared...much like GOP
my monarchy analogy for the GOP is fitting...because many Republicans have really considered themselves kings; some Republicans have even changed their name to show that they are kings (such as Peter King of New York).
That's the deal Republicans turned down last time.
Now it's the deal Republicans want.
I wanna puke.
Sorry Pigotry - my 1.9 post was in response to your post - before you changed it!
I wanna puke every time a Republican opens their mouth! I say screw them and that deal. They had their chance and they turned their noses up at it. Now we are looking at 1.6T on the table for revenue. Let them suck on that for awhile. Whatever goes on, SS and Medicare and Obamacare should not be in the deal. They are separate issues that should be handled separately.
Hey, AlaskaGirl-759554
I hope it's not morning sickness...GOP-induced morning sickness. But we all should get 'sick and tired' of all this partisan bickering.
.
We the People put these congressmen to take care of the country, but they decide to punt every time there is a tough decision ... not really tough, this time. The choices are obvious ... you need to raise revenue, not to cut services. The President has been gracious and even put on the table services cuts. The GOP should take the deal, period.
Well, I agree that we need to make some more cuts, the first and biggest being the defense and military budgets. I am sure that there are many other areas that some cuts can be made. I just don't want the most vulnerable to suffer more than many already do. I understand that concessions must be made. But, if the Republicans think that is going to happen without them cutting loose and offering up an increase in taxes on the upper incomes, plus some closing of upper income's tax loopholes, plus some major corporate ass kicking, then in my opinion they should all suck on rotten eggs. I am tired of the Republican party and the wealthiest people in this country being the "takers", because they sure as hell haven't been the "makers" over the last two decades.
Oh, man, Pigotry, if it is GOP induced then I am thankful for Roe V Wade! LOL
Caesar, taxed to oblivian? No one would be taxed to oblivian. We are only asking to return to rates for the well to do that existed during boom times of Reagan and Clinton. A few measley percentage and Caesar thinks he's going to pay so much he'll have to give up the home in the Hamptons or the new yacht he just bought.
Whatever leverage President Obama had two years ago still exists today, except now he gets to play that leverage from a stronger economic and political context. I hope you Tea Baggers have some kind of safety net when your asses cave-in off that cliff.
People voted to increase taxes on the Wall Street Gang.
Remember Grover Norquist's “impure thoughts”? Yup, it's about Poopy heads.
right because the US has an aristocracy? you must be one of those poorly educated lefties that believe only the Republicans have rich people that need 'purging'. Or you're just another Commie that supports a revolution to replace the current government for the government of hammer and sickles.
is that it? so you wonder why people keep referencing the fact the DNC has no plan but tax (nevermind cutting spending). But i never said our politicians were going to tax anyone into oblivion. I said certain posters would love to see it. Reading comp is not only fun, but fundamental.
Hey Bev have you ever tried to make sense ever? If Obama had leverage two years ago why did he get rolled? And do explain how things are stronger today than two years ago? I'll wait for your in depth analysis.
Isn't the president as the leader of the country whose party controls the WH and the Senate supposed to propose a balanced plan to avoid the fiscal cliff? Why would he put that burden on the shoulders of the minority party? Obama needs to provide a working document -- a starting point -- for Congress to go into committees and begin negotiating. What am I missing here.
P.S. Screw the past. Let's not keep rehashing old news, the past. The election is over and yes elections have consequences. Lead Mr. President. That's your consequence. Stop campaigning and get the parties together. I know it's a hard job, but I never took you for a quitter or one that would be afraid to lead.
Hey, AlaskaGirl-759554
No, that's not what I meant. Sorry for my poor choice of words. God forbid- and - nothing horrible like that should happen to you. Don't give Toddler Akin and Richard MourDork any more ammo.
What I really meant was that some congressional Republicans have disgusted many of us here, including you, AlaskaGirl-759554.
Ben,
Obama has been leading.
He is very clear about which tax cuts he will let expire and which he will extend.
Sorry, not enough time for committees of Congress etc. They have been there done that.
That is how we got to this fast approaching automatic cuts and expiration dates.
The days are passing and their Christmas recess is fast approaching.
So on New Year's Eve, where will Congress be, working or celebrating?o
TO: Ben-636050 who wrote:
What are you missing? The Teagaggers.
Republicans installed the Teagaggers in the House of Representatives to insert "gridlock" into any possible "compromise" with the President of the United States, and "We the People" re-elected President Obama to enforce the will of the Majority of the American People.
Ben, apparently president Obama has provided a "starting point" as you put it. Have no doubt. He is leading. I don't know what you are missing, but negotiations have been ongoing for a couple of weeks now. president Obama also handed out the first olive branch in bringing both sides together. They are all adults(at least one would hope) and it really is up to each and every one of them to step up and try and get things working again. The way they are supposed to. The reason we put our faith(and fate) in their hands. I don't think you need to worry about president Obama's resolve. He said he would fight hard for the middle class and the less fortunate, and I believe him. I hope you do too.
TO: AlaskaGirl-759554 who wrote:
That's EXACTLY what President Obama has taken OFF the table --Social Security and Medicare.
I'm not sure about Obamacare.
I love our President!
Northstar -- You seem to forget the president insisted on a "balanced" approach. He also said he was open to new ideas. He is the one that should be rolling up his sleeves and getting down and working with Congress -- not just laying down a sound bite and moving on. That's not leading. That's dodging. Lead by example. Demand work around the clock to get the job done and be right there with them. Yes, there will be resistance but a true leader will work with both sides -- no matter what has happened in the past -- because this country's future is at stake. He is taking the coward's way out.
America Girl -- Grow up. Stop the name calling and cutesy renaming and especially the conspiracies theories and learn how to debate, ask questions and seek answers.
Alaska -- What is the starting point? What is his ideas on a balanced approach? Hell, he supposedly got some of the smartest people on the planet working for him and they can't come up with a plan that has meat to it??? He is not leading. He is running. He is scared to come out on record of what he wants (reminds me of his Senate days where he voted "present" on a majority of votes). He knows just raising rates will not solve anything. He knows because he said so in 2010 that the problems of Medicare and SS need to be addressed sooner rather than later but his own party is holding him up on that -- and you guys cheer. You want to slam ideas from others but are afraid to put forth your own ideas.
Oh, Pigotry, don't worry. I don't sweat the likes of Akin or Mourdock! They can all kiss my ass if they don't like my stance on that particular issue!
NorthstarDFL
Ben,
if by leading you mean his policy to simply tax then you are sadly mistaken if you think thats leading. going to take more than tax as a sole policy. BTW thats not leading by saying i will only do this or that. I dont expect most of you lefties to agree with that or even acknowledge it because your child like mentality proven by both AK Girl and Am Girl show that 'we won, we get our way' attitude is part of our countries differences. You hard lefties act like Obama won 90% popular vote. it wasnt that big of a margin for godsake. There is still half this country that didnt agree so there needs to be compromise.
If President Obama learned anything from those 2011 negotiations its that the GOP can't be trusted, at all. While the GOP would love to go back to those conversations and strike "The Grand Bargain," those terms are gone.
The Republican party knows that they have to compromise. If they don't, then nothing will happen.
The President does not have to compromise. He already gets what he wants, taxes on the wealthy are going to increase. He can veto any bill that gets passed that tries to cuts the taxes on the wealthy at the expense of the poor or middle class.
Ultimately, if everyone's taxes go up and the economy tanks because the Republicans refuse to compromise, people will remember and blame the GOP in 2014. It would not be the first time the GOP had control of the House and lost it by acting like idiots.
Okay, Ben, so by your account of what the president is not doing, can we all assume that you work in the WH in some capacity and you have first hand knowledge of the president's movements and what his is or isn't doing? Also, please explain to me how he is taking the coward's way out? Your comments only prove to me and to others that you really have no idea how any of this stuff works. I could go into great detail, but I don't think you are worthy of my time since you seem to be all about bashing the president. So, if you are really interested in the inner machinations of a presidency then go to your local library, or hulu plus if you are lazy, and start watching "The West Wing". Remember that show? Yes, it is about a democrat president, but it's all the same pretty much. And before you start to harp that the show is fiction, yes, it is, but only in the sense that the characters are fictional characters(although some were inspired by actual leaders of that time and from time before). The rest of it will give you a great tutorial on what goes on in the WH and other areas of Congress.
Caesar, regarding your post at #1.1, here's the President's budget plan department by department. No need to thank me.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/federal-eye/post/federal-budget-2013-how-obamas-budget-plan-affects-each-agency/2012/02/13/gIQAsDH4AR_blog.html
Sillly communist. The republicans have congress. Don't like it. Tough.
cool Bruce, now forward that info on to Feisty since there aint no way in hell she knew there was a plan. All she knows are talking points kicked down by MSNBC. interesting where he's slashing and where he's raising. almost looks like a wash when it comes to agencies. oh well taxing sounds good
Bruce and Ceasar: doesn't that disprove yet another Fox news talking point (there has been no budget plan from the White House ?)
I guess we can put that on the shelf, along with tax cuts for the wealthy create jobs; tax increases for the wealthy will hurt the economy; only poor black Democrats get food stamps and government aid.
Ben,
Do you really think this lame duck Congress can get anything done on anything more than decide about the automatic spending cuts and the tax cut expiration by Dec 31?
You really are a romantic if you think they can come up with reform to Medicare, stenghtening SS in three weeks?
This is the same Congress who created the sequestration to make their super committee come to an agreement.
It failed, and now the cuts will begin on Jan1.
The new Congress that is sworn in in Jan 2013 will be a new day and just maybe they willl tackle some of these issues.
But I would not hold my breath ....
Ben-636050
Isn't the president as the leader of the country whose party controls the WH and the Senate supposed to propose a balanced plan to avoid the fiscal cliff? What am I missing here.
Ben, this is what you are missing. Our President leads and he's so cool about it too.
http://pbs.twimg.com/media/A8vkHY3CYAE54o3.jpg
Your stupidity amazes me the RepubliCons are about to fall off the fiscal cliff Wile E. Coyote style.
President Obama's accomplishments:
http://obamaachievements.org/list
Oil-and-gas lobby: Repeal of biofuel rule a top priority in next Congress
http://thehill.com/blogs/e2-wire/e2-wire/269579-api-to-make-biofuel-rule-repeal-a-top-priority-next-congress
President Obama to take up immigration next Congress:
On the eve of a visit by Mexican President-elect Enrique Peña Nieto, the White House promised Monday that President Barack Obama "will be pressing for action" in Congress on comprehensive immigration reform and regards that goal as "achievable."
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/obama-push-immigration-reform-white-house-says-215731725--politics.html
Would you prefer popcorn or wild turkey?
Caesar Augustus-
So first you intimate that President Obamas only policy was a tax "tax as a sole policy" and than when its pointed out that there are proposed cuts, you try to deflect and state Feisty didnt know this...too funny dude
I guess I don't understand why you libs are so angry....Your guy won and still you're angry at the Republicans. You knew the score before winning and after. You won...you own it you fix it!
Surely your Empty Suit has a contingency plan in the event he can't get Congress to band over.
We had a deal in 2011 until the Empty Suit changed it at the last minute....that one's on you...so now YOU FIX IT IF YOU'RE SO DAMN SMART...We owe you nothing......You deserve what you get.....Ball's in your court! I mean Jamie Fox did declare him Lord and Savior....
This should be a piece of cake for a person with those kind of powers.......Could it be the emperor has no clothes???
Over the cliff with them. Make the republicons publicly defend their billionaire leaders. Let the whole world see that their Emperor has no clothes. It's over Grover.
Nah ~ that's the cover story floated by Boehner. There was nothing substantive changed in the "Grand Bargain" but when Boehner returned from the tanning salon he found the Tea Party up in arms and threatening reprisals for his acquiescence to the agreement.
I think the democrats should get everything they want their way for the next 2-4 years. The Republicans and conservatives should just start voting present.
The American people have become so disillusioned about what built this country that they believe the way to prosperity is through progressivism (socialism). Let them have it, they voted for it.
Then in a few years when The dems have raised taxes to the point where nobody wants to work or run a business here, maybe the public will see the folly in their ways. Till then, just let them pave their own road to serfdom.
Let them have it, they think they know how it works, so let them prove it. It will be costly and set our country back a few decades but this steady "nudge" toward socialism over the last 70 years is getting old. Just let them have it all, it's the only way they will see their own mistakes.
We don't have to defend anyone....you won...it's your plan and your problem now....fix it......
"There was nothing substantive changed in the "Grand Bargain" If memory serves me I don't know that I'd call $200 billion difference as to what was agreed to as non-substantive....
But then again it's only $200 billion....But you know $200 billion here...$200 billion there...sooner or later you're talking some real money.......
For the last four years, the president HAS submitted his budget plan, and both houses of Congress have totally ignored his plan as a starting point. Remember, the Budget and Accounting Act of 1921 sets the guidelines...president submits a budget proposal, the House and Senate then review that proposal and comes up with a budget resolution. The president does NOT sign off on any Congressional Budget Resolutions. They are ONLY a guide for the two houses of Congress to then develop and pass the Appropriations Bills for each department/agency, which the president then signs off on. Congress has failed to pass the Appropriations for most of the departments for the past several years, choosing to pass "continuing resolutions" instead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_budget_process
Elliott...I don't think they would ever see any error in their way...reason, is not a part of a liberal's mindset. They'd run it into the ground and at the end say "Oh well...at least we had good intentions" and let someone else clean up their mess like they always do.
Let Socialism get a foothold?? I don't think we want to have to try to "un-ring" that bell....Liberals tend to be like middle Eastern tribes...all they know is being angry and fighting about something all the time...so I'll oblige them and fight them every step of the way to get our country back......and clean up the mess that they will make of it....
I agree with your statement wb52. America voted, Mr. Obama won. It's time to let his administration enact their legislation. Get out of the way GOP and let the democrats do what they will to the country. You will not be seen in a positive light by standing in the way and filibustering. Elections have consequences....
Don't think however, that I'll not criticize poor decisions by the administration along the way when they come to light. But hey, Americans deserve the government they voted for, even if I personally do not agree.
I will try to help, but unfortunately nobody posting seems to get it. It won't help in the ways that you seem to think. It solves ZERO of the problems the country faces financially. Sure it will bring in some tax money (notice I didn't say revenue, because nothing is produced).
The problem is mandatory spending keeps rising. It will not stop with the evil 1%. You will see, soon it will need to be the 5% and the 10%.
Call me a teabagger, republithug or anything else it doesn't matter. No one on either side wants to address the real issue...reducing mandatory spending...
Caesar Augustus,
You Teabaggers LOST and you are A CRYBABY!! Get over it, and read up on how democracy is SUPPOSED to work....
Love the liberals calling people who make $250K plus as millionaires & billionaires.
But hey...you won...Your celebrating with tax rates going up on the rich...!!!! Uh....you still are not even close to addressing the annual deficit...much less actually reducing any existing debt.
All you class warfare loving liberals...Please advise where you are going to find the rest of the money.
Try using some simple math. We have a MASSIVE spending problem so large that the top 2% can not pay for it all. Sorry....Reality just hit you in the face.
Paws93 - we elected a fake Indian here in MA and all she said for 6 months was millionaires and billionaires. Shows you how stupid we are, she is a millionaire trust fund baby.
It would seem as if the GOP is determined to repeat the ass whooping they were handed this election cycle in 2014.
Go for it fellas, don't let the door hit your asses on the way out of congress...
and the fact that you think this is a substantive attack on Elizabeth Warren shows exactly why your side lost big time this last election...
Actually drowning that was the best reason to have elected Lizzy. Professor Warren is in way over her head. She will fit the mold perfectly in DC though. How should I vote, I'll ask the leader. I am not saying either side is any good because both have people just like her who run on completely foolish platforms, "i'll fight against millionaires and billionaires" and have no idea what they are talking about.
She is a perfect example of why the whole thing is broken.
Oh my, oh my. The blatant ass kissing of the wannabe rich is astounding! How is it that those of you who are still defending trickle down economics are so blind to the fact that it just doesn't work? To start with, people making $50k a year are struggling to keep their heads above water right now and a $2000 to $3000 loss that will come if these tax breaks are allowed to expire will severely harm the economy.
The very wealthy have so damned many loopholes that, out of a $1 million a year income, they end up paying taxes on less than half of it. Some of these fine folks sit on the boards of multiple companies. They receive no salary for that, so there is no taxable income. They do, however, get lots and lots of perks ... the use of cars, corporate jets, vacation resort homes, dining, travel expenses ... but it is not taxed.
Some sit on the boards of not-for-profit organizations. This is great for them. They can donate huge amounts and write it off on their taxes, so it lowers the amount on which they pay taxes. Those organizations buy lots of cool stuff ... again, cars, vacation resort homes, etc. and give the "donor" exclusive use of it. All perfectly legal, but fair? Not to the middle income Americans who are just trying to make ends meet.
Since the GOP refuses to close the loopholes so that the wealthy are forced to pay their fair share, then the tax rate MUST BE RAISED on those enjoying the fruits of the labors of the middle class.
What cracks me up is that those on here defending the ultra-rich's right to keep more than is fair suffer from some bizarre form of learned helplessness. They are not even close to being in the income bracket that would be impacted by a 3% - 4% increase. They seem to believe that if they are willing to grovel at the feet of the wealthy, then they'll get an atta-boy button and a pat on the head from the massa for being a good little economic slave.
Boehner and the rest of these obstructionist @!$%#s had better wake the hell up and start listening to the working people of this country. We're not rolling over like good little puppies for them any longer. This dog has teeth.
It looks like the GOP plan is to push us over the fiscal cliff and tank the economy, then try to hang the blame on the president. They will decry that President Obama wasn't willing to compromise, meaning that he would not give in to their unreasonable demands. If the Republicans believe that they can do this, then they have another thing coming. Americans aren't stupid. We are not weak and we will not be held hostage any longer by a minority who pander only to their entitled, elitist donors while selling the working people of our nation, and all America stands for, down the river.
What a crock. TRICARE is already being slashed one region at a time...starting with the Western Region.
Hey Retirees...Active Duty Dependents...AGRs; thank you for your service...now...
Don't Get Sick...If You Do...Die Quickly
Just another kiss from a grateful Nation.
So now it's all about how "concilatory" the President will be in working with them????? How about presenting a NEW IDEA or two or three? 435 members and not one is willing to write a bill? Suggest something new????
GAH!!!!
The President has always been willing to work with the GOP.
But it takes two...to get a deal.
It really depends on how conciliatory the GOP will be...
if, as the news article title sugests, the GOP returns to the 2011 playbook, then we all know the GOP still expects to be treated as if the GOP won the 2012 elections. Because the last time in 2011 the GOP's playbook never allowed conciliation because of their vaunted 'mandate' after having won 2010 elections.
Layton, they, meaning the GOP, will never ever come to the table with something concrete. They don't spend enough time taking these things seriously.
"Their feeling is that the president’s tone this Friday during his first public rally regarding the fiscal cliff will be telling of how conciliatory he’ll be in the talks..."
Oh, crap- did Obama (er...PRESIDENT Obama) say something about something being a 'Waterloo" again???
Just HOW should the President be "conciliatory"? If anything the GOP should be the ones to be "conciliatory"! Their majority in the House, isn't all THAT BIG ANYMORE !! The President holds the "Bigger" stick, this time around, and they had bloody well better realize it, and get on with it, or they will answer to the American people. Not to Grover Norquist, the Lobbyists, or the Big Corporations. Those are their TRUE constituents. After all it is the MONEY from these "SPECIAL INTERESTS", that fuel their resistance to any "REAL" negotiations, let alone reaching anything approaching, "a deal"!!
Well, ya know, who really cares at this point? All they have to do is NOTHING! You know, exactly what they have all been doing for the last 2 years!
And by doing nothing:
1. the Bush tax cuts will expire - this is worth about $1T over 10 years
2. automatic spending cuts enacted in 2011 will cut in - this is worth about $1.2T over 10 years
So screw the Republicans, Obama and the Democrats! Let them all get locked up in BS discussions and not do one damned thing to get a $2.2T reduction in the next 10 year's deficit! This seems to be the only way politicians can face the reality of mounting debt!
Hey,Layton...hey Bug :)...I couldn't agree more...keep telling all of those who are ill-informed the FACTS!
(Katy says "Yea, Obameow and a big meow to Bug!)
Yes Layton, They should be doing something, anything, to get things started, after all the budget is their responsibility as directed by the constitution.
However they will continue to blame the President for their lack of willingness to do the job.
They are very good a doing nothing constructive and blaming Obama for it.
Please don't bring up the Ryan budget plan, it was denounced as unworkable, and also knew that it would never get bi-partisan support.
caesar augustus Going back to the 39% tax rate, you know the Clinton tax rate isn't going to tax a certain class into oblivion. True or not?
definitely not but again i never said that current admin would do that, just certain posters on FR believe a certain wage earner should be taxed into oblivion. But tell me how that one little itty bitty bit of taxing is going to save us? Like I said simple huh? carry on.
That little tax along with the right cuts and taking away some of the deductions is a good start. Like you said simple. Look the farm bill could stand cuts, The military could stand cuts also. Every cut doesn't have to come out things that help people. Lets be real you know and I know this could done if all the bull$hit would stop.
its not simple, quite the contrary. Hence the flaw with Feisty's thinking (if you call it that). its beyond cuts. Sure cut some of the military, cut farm subsidies, but reform welfare as well. its not a simple process and it is going to require compromise not just repubs rolling over like the DNC and FR posters think should happen. That is/was not how our gov was designed. It's a representative government, not party rule.
What we need is sensible cuts accross the board AND revenue increases. Those revenue increases can be found with higher taxes on the 1%ers as well as some reforms regarding capital gains taxes, estate tax on estates of 2M or more and a few other loopholes most of us don't enjoy. Spend a little in the right places like on incentives to bring jobs back from India and China etc. and to create infrastructure jobs, and improve schools and health care nation wide. When more people are working more people are paying taxes reducing the burden on those who are already working and the 1%ers in the long run. Cutting alone is not the answer neither is taxation alone the answer. It must contain a balanced approach of both spending cuts and revenue increases. Digging heels in won't help the Republicans on this issue this time around.
what is 1% Adler. Obama thinks its 250k or more. estate tax on estates? hasnt that been taxed already? Im not against allowing tax rates to go up at all its going to be more than that. Im not rich by any means but for heavens sake the rich havent destroyed this country. Who is going to pay for this free health care? Interesting Europe has 'free' socialized healthcare but no one ever discusses the populace. none of Europes countries are near our population. You talk of balance but you never talked of which cuts but you were heavy on discussing taxes. as for creating infrastructure jobs, those are private jobs typically contracted through a bidding process from States. Its not that simple with just creating 'shovel ready' as has been demonstrated in the past. we need a budget for starters. ever try running your finances without a budget. You have pay day loans if you want, see how long that lasts. Our gov does not set a good example for its people.
"...certain posters on FR believe a certain wage earner should be taxed into oblivion..."
W H A T ? ??
Jesus, man- Who are all these people? The Waltons of Bentonville? You know- the ones who's stores pay their employees just little enough that they are eligilbe for 'handouts', whilewhat should be the rest of the 'useful' part of their paycheck rolls up to Bentonville? Handouts YOUR tax dollars pay for?? YOUR tax dollars are subsidizing the already wealthy. You seem to be more than good with this.
Why?
Drive by observer,
You paying taxes, does not give more money to the wealthy. That is nonsense. Not taking something from someone who earned it, does not equal giving them money. It is just asinine.
That is like saying "I had to buy groceries this week because my rich neihbor didn't buy them for me." Why should your neighbor have to buy your groceries? You buy your groceries, they buy theirs, by expecting them to pay for yours and get angry if they won't you just look like an envious prick.
except of course when your tax dollars go to pay for Medicaid for Walmart employees cause the billionaire Waltons of Bentonville won't pay their employees enough to cover medical expenses or, god forbid, actually provide health insurance for them!
You know, the actual concrete example of YOUR tax dollars subsidizing the lifestyle of billionaires provided by Drive-by...
/gasp
The "Gross Odd People" (GOP), and the "Really Not Competent" (RNC) have no intention to 'compromise' with the President. On Janruary 20, 2009 at the Caucus Steakhouse in Washington D.C. The GOP/Tea Beggers made completed their "Blood Oath" to destroy the US Economy at all costs. The Tea Beggers also 'conspired' to take their "Economic Revenge" out on the American People. They made their "Goofy Grover Tax Pledge" by 2009, and they ignored their pledges to the nation. The GOP "Fourteen Felon's" that 'conspired' at the "Caucus Conspiracy" decided that their nation is "Economically Expendible." Read Draper's Book America, and then demand that a full investigation be conducted quickly.
Progressive=Forward 11
Read Draper's Book America, and then demand that a full investigation be conducted quickly.
Progressive=Forward 11,
Your post is by far the best. Forget about that un-convicted felon Darrel Issa he wouldn't even investigate Murdoch and Newscorp
Issa: We Won’t Investigate News Corp’s Alleged Hacking Of 9/11 Victims Because We Don’t Want To Pick On The Media
http://thinkprogress.org/media/2011/09/14/318597/issa-we-won%E2%80%99t-investigate-news-corp%E2%80%99s-alleged-hacking-of-911-victims-because-we-don%E2%80%99t-want-to-pick-on-the-media/
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Okay, Melaine Sloan it's all yours.
The D.C.-based group Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) has accused Rep. Darrel Issa (R-CA) of using official government resources on a political ad attacking President Barack Obama, a violation of House ethics rules.
Raw Story (http://s.tt/1sFiQ)
Oh there's another one Issa released classifed info about Benghazi, thereby endangering lives
If this is 2011 all over again does this mean we'll have some grand bargain that will once again be undone when Speaker Boehner gets a slap on the wrist from the Tea Party?
(actually, he could get more than a slap on the wrist as he could find himself no longer referred to as "Mr. Speaker")
Speaker Boner? ...Can it speak??
Then that's a miracle! Someone will become a saint for this miracle? Some others will be a-noid.
Maybe we should ask the American people who they would prefer to see impeached--President Obama for whatever reason the Republicans can get to stick to the wall or those Republicans that swore to do damage to this President regardless of the consequences to the good of the country?? Do they really want to lose another consensus of the people? Give it up! There is going to be some pain felt by many Americans; but, like myself, most Americans are willing to give a little to save this great nation. It's just that pesky 1-2% who would rather hold the country hostage to protect their almighty greed.
Great post, Donna! Many of us are of like mind in moving this country forward. Could the GOP ever think Country FIRST?
GOP - the party where having a Narcissistic Personality Disorder is one of the pre-requisites for registering . . .
Its not even all of the 1%. Buffett has come out all for taxing him more. Sad that republicans are so dim witted as to not know the difference.
I, like many of you, am willing to do my part. But, why is it that we are always willing to help and the ones that can truly really afford it are so unwilling? This country provided them with the mass wealth many of them sit on, yet when it comes time to unite for the good of this great nation they are the ones scrambling to hide their money, and throw money at people like Grumpy Grover so he can make sure that they pay the least amount possible. There is such great gluttony in this country and it starts at the top.
Simply put AlaskaGirl, folks like that wouldn't be if it wasn't for people like me. Not one of them can make anything on their own in order to amass the millions and in some cases billions that they have if somebody don't build it for them. This goes for all industries. It is the worker bees that makes the honey not the Queen.
Donna, most people as you said, are willing to give something in order to save the Nation. The GOP won't be happy unless we give it all and they give nothing.
It's not going to happen. America is behind President Obama. No one supports McConnell, who I think is the most despicable man in the Senate.
John, there are many of us that is for sure.
Pat, I echo your comments, especially about McConnell. That man is pure evilness. I actually get a chill up my spine whenever he is speaking.
Donna, I concur. When French King Louis the XV said, 'After me, the Deluge.' He didn't care about his people, and only wanted to enjoy the luxuries on the backs of the poor. These absolute kings don't care about people.
Republican members of Congress - such as Peter KING of NY, act just like such kings as Louis the XV.
.
What happened to the French monarchy? well the French Revolution - like a tidal wave (flood..or deluge) that engulfed the French monarchy and guillotined Louis the XVI.
Then British philosopher Edmund Burke (Irish-born) reacted to the revolution in France and argued that leaders need to 'change in order to conserve.' Guess what.. Burke was the founding father of Anglo-American conservatism.
.
I wonder if our conservatives in today's America can still adapt? Or will they end up like the French monarchy, engulfed by the tidal wave of change.
Yes, They Can [change]? We will see.
So I hope that Republicans can change to adapt and survive.
Speaking of people giving, during World War II, 1944 to be precise, the top income tax rate was 94%. Americans also participated heavily in each of the seven War Bond drives by buying the bonds that kept the nation afloat. Their reward, and ours too, was the strongest most productive country the world has ever seen. Today, if someone visited the local country club and suggested that Americans should invest in America, that person would be met with blind stares.
For an overview of top marginal tax rate since 1913, please consult this following website.
http://www.ntu.org/tax-basics/history-of-federal-individual-1.html
It all went downhill since Reagan who claimed Coolidge as his hero. What a coincidence - that tax cut of Coolidge (1925-29) led to the Great Depression, and GOP tax cut since Reagan to Bush (1981-2009) led to the Great Recession. This finding is significant.
How true, John. Buffet, a very successful businessman, sees the hypocrisy of the tax rate he and others pay in relation to what they claim as income. Now he's a businessman who might make a good president. At least, he knows injustice when he sees it. The Republicans thought they could win by nominating a businessman when the economy was suffering (thanks to them). They couldn't even get that right.
The GOP/Tea Beggers never intended to 'compromise' back in 2011. They did a great acting job in 2011, and they are back in 2012 for their Second Act.
TO: Progressive=Forward 11 who wrote:
Not to worry, we're gonna get them outta there on the very next go-round.
I think you hit the nail on the head Progressive.
From all their talk I don't see the Rep. willing to resolve this problem.
I hear a lot of talj about what the President must do, but very little of what they will do.
So far I've heard from them close loopholes, which ones? They have not said.
It seems they will go on doing nothing and when it falls apart, that was Obama's fault.
Wish I had a job like that, my boss expects me to get my work done without his input.
Here is the type of straight forward fair plan that neither side will even consider. Average Americans can agree on it but can politicians beholden to unlimited campaign spending and rigid lock step mentality and political theocracy of group conformity designed by their cynical Machiavellian propagandists like Norquist, Rove and their army of AM talk show, religious and mainstream think tank trained shills? Apparently not.
A Simple plan to secure Social Security and Medicare and reduce the Deficit without hurting the most vulnerable:First of all extend the limits on SS and Medicare contributions because right now the rich pay a vastly lower percentage of their income to these programs than the middle class and poor. I believe the cap on taxable income for Social Security is $106,000. So, someone making a $250,000 is paying less than half the percentage rate as someone making $50,000. Also, I would lower the corporate tax rate substantially but cut out all the legalized corruption in the tax code that Enables many Hugely Profitable Companies to end up Paying No Corporate Income Tax. Our corporate tax code is worse than Swiss cheese but the printed top rate only hurts small businesses who don’t have the benefit of armies of accountants and lawyers to exploit the corrupted tax code.This should be followed up by the following simple changes:
1. Cap deductions, raise marginal rates on the high income earners.
2. Put capital gains tax on a progressive scale.
3. Cut out subsidies to established profitable industries like oil, gas and coal.
4. Drop subsidies for corn to ethanol conversion and other boondoggles.
5. Cut military spending.
6. Have zero income tax on start up corporations (meeting specific standards, business plan, etc.) and provide zero interest loans backed by the Fed for all well vetted start up companies and maintain financing them for a period of up to 3 years based on established revenue growth bench marks. Lets do something to create jobs in the tax code. And also, huge tax incentives to bring factory and service jobs and money home. This has to do with cutting the top corporate tax rate and cutting out loopholes that make exporting jobs so profitable.
We also need to require that these giant multinationals pay taxes on profits they are making over seas and not allow companies to move their head quarters to the Caymans and pretend they are not primarily US corporations.
Finally, our power grid is a joke and even more than highways and bridges, we need to rebuild our power grid and that could be a source for billions in new jobs and associated revenues while bringing our power grid into the 21st century.Finally, we need to allow collective bargaining for Medicare and Medicaid and the new Affordable Care law. If all these programs could negotiate for pricing on all health services and products, including the part D drug benefit, the people of United States could save hundreds of billions over time.Then again, with the unlimited money flooding in under the corruption installed by the corrupt Supreme Court in their decision on “Citizens United vs. the Federal Election Board”, which should have been called “Lobbies United Against Democracy in the United States” we can expect either party to get behind common sense legislation that puts fairness and the long term well being of the People of this nation first. Its up to us to lobby for common sense. The age of the Public Citizen has never been more clear. – Duffminster
Duffminster - I like it! It's a good plan - probably needs a few tweeks but it makes sense.
If we weren't arguing over who said what when maybe something like this could get passed. The entire country would benefit!
If we weren't arguing over who said what when maybe something like this could get passed. The entire country would benefit!
Bravo to ya's, Duff and Seeking!
FORWARD
Ditto! It actually made sense to me and I am the first to admit that this stuff can jumble one's mind! Hey, Duff, since you seem to be pretty good at this stuff, could you come up with some tax deductions for those of us who have no dependents, rent don't own a home, don't have dividends, no real property, etc. You know, a run of the mill "Easy tax filer". We get totally screwed! When I found out that I paid taxes at a rate of 16%, more than Romney did in 2010(and less than that we all know!) I nearly @!$%# a brick!
Excellent post, Duff!
Given how long it is still taking to get power up and restored on the Eastern seaboard, I'm sure they all would certainly agree. After a particulary nasty windstorm here in Utah last winter, many elderly families in older neighborhoods were without power for up to two weeks due to big old trees and above ground electrical lines.
Raising taxes on those that make over $250,000 a year will bring in about $56 billion.
The current deficit per year before Obamacare kicks in about $1 trillion.
That's about 5% of what we need to "fix" things so where is the rest?
Where is the plan?
Show us the details.
Show us the tax returns.
Oh, wait... never mind.
Show us the Indonesian exchange student's Occidental college application.
Oh, Bali Bob, you are the winner today of my LOL experience! Thanks!
Oh, Thinking Long Term: You are one of "those people". I should have known that. So funny that losers such as people like yourself were so willing to elect a man who refused to show his tax returns. You know, the U.S. presidency is the most important position in the world and do you really think that the American people were going to entrust that position to a man like The Flip Flopper who wouldn't even show his tax returns yet he demanded many years worth from others? No, among so many other issues Americans had with The Flop, I think the tax returns did indeed prove to be a part of his LOSS! Loser!
@Alaska,
Happy to oblige!
@Thinking,
Papers, please. To ze left.
FORWARD
It's sad when some folks just HAVE to continue to believe lies and fill their days with unreasoning hatred instead of moving forwards and making things positive happen.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/occidental.asp
A journey of 1,000 miles begins with the first step. Are you republicons so cowardly that you will not even dare to take that first stp towards recovery from this Great Recession?
Thinking Long Term,
Let me remind you, since you are infected with Romnesia: YOUR GUY LOST THE ELECTION IN A LANDSLIDE!!!!
You should consider changing you r name to: WHINING LONG TERM.....
If you say closing loop holes that's the Romney plan.
Romney plan? Who's Romney?
Hahahahahaha!
@Thinking,
If you say closing loop holes that's the Romney plan.
Romney pays less in taxes that the average American does... because of tax loopholes that the wealthiest among us are able to take advantage of.
Old saying: "It takes money to make money".
That's how Romney grew his personal wealth through Bain Capital.
Do you really believe that Romney would have acted against his own self-interest?
Which loopholes, TLT? He never provided details as to what, when, why, or how.
Matthew, you know as well as I that we only got to see Mitty's "loopholes" if he were elected. Personally, I'm thankful I don't have to see him, his queen, or his loopholes .... EVER!
Yes I do, Layton. Gov. Romney said he would not disclose his loopholes until after he was elected.
I was trying to point out that the statement "closing loop holes that's the Romney plan" first off isn't a "plan" and secondly is an attempt to detract from the measureable effort made by Presdient Obama.
The president should call the Republicans' bluff. There's no way the GOP is letting all their crooked friends in the military-industrial complex go bust.
a bargain is a temporal thing. The times are SO DIFFERENT today post election.
Bonehead Boehner you should have taken the deal in 2011
No bargain. Fiscal cliff is fine with me. Neither side will pay in two years as that's what this is all about anyway. 90% of congress and the presidents get reelected. So let the lemmings get crushed. Lets just grind this worthless congress to a halt. Its all big money anyway so if it means cuts, than so what if a few defense contractors don't make their margins.
Speaking of people giving, during World War II, 1944 to be precise, the top income tax rate was 94%. Americans also participated heavily in each of the seven War Bond drives by buying the bonds that kept the nation afloat. Their reward, and ours too, was the strongest most productive country the world has ever seen. Today, if someone visited the local country club and suggested that Americans should invest in America, that person would be met with blank stares.
There was a time when the leaders of commerce, industry and finance worked for the betterment of the nation, not solely for their pocketbooks.
The History channel had a recent series on the people from the last century. JP Morgan lent money to the US Government and worked to make the US the greatest nation on earth. Ford knew that only by improving the pay and working conditions for all of his workers could they afford to buy his very inexpensive car.
The top tax rates were intended to balance out the inequities between the very poor and the very rich. The very poor could not afford to live while the very rich lived like kings. Although not quite to that level today, the country has been moving in that direction.
The ongoing demise of the middle class is slow destroying the nation.
dirp, you are so right. The rich have lost the sense of community that used to exist in this country. I grew up with some very wealthy people, paying tax rates up to 90%. Never did I hear any of them complain about their taxes; they realized that they got so much back for what they paid. They knew that what they paid was good for the country and everyone in it. Perhaps the wealthy have lost a sense of commitment to the country, perhaps they have just become greedy. Whatever accounts for the change in attidude, it is everyone but them who suffers. What they don't realize (or perhaps don't care about) is that continuing on this course will lead to their demise, and perhaps to the demise of the country. This is the stuff that breeds rebellion after everyone is reduced to poverty. Why the Republicans defend and support this is beyond me, but it borders on treason.
During World War II everyone who wanted to work was working and being paid a decent wage. Problem was that there was nothing to buy. We grew up on a farm and had all the meat, eggs, butter and bacon we could eat, but each of those items was rationed. So was gasoline and tires. Automotive production stopped in 1942 and didn't start again until 1946.
After the war ended, seven million men and women came home, married, had kids and needed housing. Those who worked in the shipyards and munitions plants had money and wanted to spend it - new tires for the old car (or maybe even a new car), washing machines, furniture, clothes and on and on. The domestic economy went from a war footing to domestic footing instantly and 1950's saw the greatest economic growth the nation had seen to that point all of it the result of federal spending to win the war. (The tech boom of the 1990's surpassed it, but who's counting?)
Obama's economic plan sounded a lot like the mobilization of WWII to me. People need jobs and roads and bridges need to be repaired or rebuilt. Maybe Congress needs more ancient people who could explain that sometimes government spending reaps huge returns.
Unfortunately for Republicans, the president is in a much stronger position now than he was in the summer of 2011, when he was facing re-election and would have been blamed for the consequences of not making a deal. Now, he won re-election pretty decisively (at least, more decisively than anyone thought he would), and as he pointed out, the exit polls showed that more people agreed with him about raising taxes on the rich than voted for him. So he has no reason now to agree to all these cuts or to agree to not raising the top rate. Especially since a poll showed yesterday that a majority of Americans would blame the Republicans if they fail to reach a deal.
Republicans, from a strategic perspective, should have taken the President's offer in 2011. I am very glad they didn't.
The House is still Republican. The Senate is still Democrat. The President is still Incompetent.
It's gonna be a very bleak four years.
Well if the repubs just want to shut down gov, increase unemployment and cause a depression since they lost the elections (except the gerrymandered house seats), then there is always that martial law amendment the president can use to get order back in the country...what was its....the fourteenth amenment?
Martial law amendment? BigBearcatBill, you are going a bit too far....Give the President credit...he is very protective of our Constitution ... he is very nice ... he knows what's appropriate ... also martial arts savvy maybe ...but no martial law.
Typical reichwing response ...they lost the electoral college 62-38% and yet their bargaining position boils down to"we want to use the same crap that cost us the election"
Increase in after-tax income group, 1979-2007;
Top 1% 281%
Top 5% 160%
Top 10% 125%
Top 20% 95%
Forth 20% 35%
Middle 20% 25%
second 20% 23%
Bottom 20% 16%
Figures are adjusted for inflation.
Source; Congressional Budget Office "Average After-Tax Household Income" June, 2010.
As you can see, there is plenty of extra disposable income on the part of the top income earners to contribute more to reduce the deficit.
Excellent. Nothing more needs to be said.
We are taxed on income but we should be taxed on wealth, at least with regard to the defense portion of our taxes. Why should I pay for a bloated defense budget that protects someone else's vast wealth.
Hahahaha sitting on a computer hitting refresh waiting for a new political story, just to pounce on it and start a big circle jerk.
Priceless.
No matter your political affiliation, great humor.
Kannin is correct, but you know what dude - it falls on deaf (fingers in ears) ears. Flip the switch, we lost, have hope, and move on. These extremists will never listen, nor will they magically agree with you. Especially these crazies who wait for a new story to break, to be the first to offer their points. Hell, all they do is sit around and talk about McCain, Romney, Bush, et al all day anyway. "The party of tolerance" Hahahaha my ass. All you can do is wish them well!
Sorry guys - back to your fun. As you were...
Republicans seem to have short memories. It was Boehner ~ yielding to pressure (threats?) by Tea Party operatives ~ that walked away from the "Grand Bargain" in 2011. Since it was unacceptable then, there is no rational reason to believe it should be the benchmark for future negotiations.