It’s interesting to see Barry sending Susan Rice, hat in hand, to meet with her Senate critics. Even more interesting is that Barry has likely given her permission to hang the CIA out to dry as a sacrificial lamb, by making the acting director of the CIA go with her.

Rice to meet with 3 Senate critics

U.N. Ambassador Susan Rice will meet Tuesday morning with at least three of her most vocal Senate critics to discuss her remarks about the deadly attacks on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi, senators confirmed.

GOP Sens. John McCain of Arizona, Lindsey Graham of South Carolina and Kelly Ayotte of New Hampshire have agreed to a joint meeting with Rice so that she can answer questions about why she incorrectly described the assault as something that originated with a spontaneous demonstration, rather than being a deliberate terrorist attack. Rice made those remarks on five Sunday talk shows.

Joe,

Isn't it more interesting that Senator Graham, Senator McCain and Senator Ayotte have come to the realization that the fight they want to pick isn't with Ambassador Susan Rice?

Joe in Albany

It’s interesting to see Barry sending Susan Rice, hat in hand, to meet with her Senate critics

Can I borrow your glasses? I haven't read into stuff that way since the good old days of LSD.

Da 'Rhoid: Rice was the one who requested the meeting and who is going up to Capital Hill. Anyone with a single surving brain cell can read that one. Sorry you can't.

What's even more interesting is McCain, Graham and Ayotte are having to lick their wounds. Poor Ayotte, she should have known better than to get hooked up with those two losers. Ayotte has ended her career before it got started. It's amazing what one bad chose can do to you.

Ambassitor Rice just wants to sit the two old white idiots and their follower straight Joe.

Couldn't POSSIBLY be that the senators need to save face now and she's being gracious, could it?

I haven't read into stuff that way since the good old days of LSD.

________________________________________

See #1.4. I've read that LSD has permanent mind altering effects on certain users. Enjoy your trip BCWC.

One question Ms. Rice: Who debreifed you on the situation and what to say?........ No futher questions. You can go now.

Couldn't POSSIBLY be that the senators need to save face now and she's being gracious, could it?

___________________________________________

As Nasty Dumbfux is fond of saying "Politics is a contact sport".

What do you think Nasty??

Is Barry sending Rice up to Capitol Hill to meet with her Senate detractors so she can be "gracious"??

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looking forward to Susan Rice's meeting with her accusers (McCain and Graham). These two losers have been all over poor Ms. Rice ever since President Obama won re-election. Their hatred is not for Ms. Rice, but for their jealousy and hatred of our President. Funny as we see a head to head meeting with Ms. Rice coming up, we see the backing away, Cowards. Ms. Rice is not only smarter than these two has beens, she's also tougher.

GO GET UM SUSAN.

0bama is playing politics with the nations economy. Tell him to stop holding us hostage.

Jay Carney told the WH press pool today that it would "ruin the fun" if he gave away the President's strategy to win over the American people to his plan which includes tax-hikes on the top earners in the country.

Video

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/11/26/Carney-It-Would-Ruin-The-Fun-If-WH-Gave-Away-Obamas-Fiscal-Cliff-Plans

Joe,

Regardless of who requested the meeting you will notice the saber-rattling around Ambassador Rice has quieted.

I think the GOP needs to remember that in Washington the agencies that handle Intelligence and Diplomacy are not one in the same. The CIA tells the State Department everything the State Department knows...not necessarily everything the CIA knows.

I recall about 10 years ago the Secretary of State went to the United Nations and told harrowing tales of weapons of mass-destruction and yellow-cake uranium and imminent threats from Iraq. That man was Colin Powell...and he seems to have held a grudge against the GOP that sent him to do their dirty work.

...and in the end I go back to the same argument I made all along...we need to learn the truth about what really happened in Benghazi in order to have any moral standing on any issues that happened as a result of it.

One thing I'll credit Albany Joe for at least not running away from FR after November 6. Beyond that, it seems he cannot help himself, he twists himself into a pretzel and he keep believing the ignorant rants of an angry, sore loser (and his two equally ignorant friends)--who skipped the intelligence briefings which proved our intelligence gave Ambassador Rice the words to speak (the GOP darling Petraeus said so)--in order to rant about not getting the answers because he couldn't be bothered to attend a briefing where he would have been given the answers. Conservatives have a problem with facing the truth whether it is believing polls that said Romney would win by a landslide or believing the rants of an angry GOP boy and his grade-school friends. Albany Joe is FR's proof that ignoring the truth is easier than facing the reality of what is the truth.

We need to know what happened in Benghazi, the who, what, where and why of it in order to prevent a similar tragedy in the future. The GOP boys, however, seem determined to witch hunt rather than seek answers.

0bama is playing politics with the nations economy. Tell him to stop holding us hostage.

...but when Republicans and Big Business did so leading up to the election did you complain?

...but when the CEO of a mining company lays off workers because the President won re-election did you complain?

"Breitbart"...nice unbiased source.

Susan Rice today will head to Capitol Hill to meet privately with GOP Sens. John McCain, Lindsey Graham, and Kelly Ayotte

Isn't that the way it should be? Meet face-to-face to privately discuss the issues and concerns instead of screaming into a microphone or criticizing someone on a Sunday "news"/talk show?

Hopefully they can put this Benghzi witch-hunt behind them, learn from the security mistakes, and address the real issues facing this country.

Why don't you hacks lump Kelly Ayotte in with McCain and Graham? Would that not fit you narrative that these are just grumpy old white men calling out this lying Rice? Ayotte was right there with them calling out the liar.

Them Media Mafia continues to have total control over you lemmings. You will never know more than they want you to.

Joe has been watching Fox and friends this morning. Filled with false information as usual.

One thing I'll credit Albany Joe for at least not running away from FR after November 6

Jody,

Every village has an idiot...

....Joey just so happens to be ours...

Mo,

Poor Ayotte, she should have known better than to get hooked up with those two losers. Ayotte has ended her career before it got started. It's amazing what one bad chose can do to you.

You couldn't be more right. People in NH are pissed that she's wasting her time on photo ops when there is real work to be done in the Senate. She believed all the hype that perhaps she would be the Republican pick in 2016, so she made a foolish calculation, and now her trajectory is heading down down down . . . like a shooting star that's burned itself out.

I see Albany Joe is stuck on stupid again this morning. Hit the "reset" button, Joe.

Appears McNasty is going to get neutered come January;

WASHINGTON -- Just four years ago, John McCain was the leader of the GOP. Today, he's the highest-ranking Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee, a perch from which the former fighter pilot is deeply engaged in the national conversation over war, terrorism and intelligence gathering.

But in January, the Arizona senator will lose his top-ranking committee seat due to term limits. The only ranking Republican spot available to him next session will be on the Indian Affairs Committee.

Unless, that is, the Senate creates a brand-new select committee. On Wednesday, McCain, flanked by Sens. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) and Kelly Ayotte (R-N.H.), proposed just that: a select committee with extensive authority to investigate the Benghazi, Libya, attack and the U.S. government's response.

The Republican most likely to hold the ranking spot on such a panel would be, of course, John McCain, giving the Arizona senator a new burst of relevance.

Relevance being the "key" word here... LMAO!

Why would the party of "small" gubment want to create yet another committee to satisfy McNasty's lust for power?

Weird!!!

McCain lost all credibility when put our Nation is great danger by picking Sarah Palin for the VP slot.

Let's Make a Deal

From the article above:

President Obama will be hitting the road on Friday to make his case that the Bush tax cuts should be extended for the middle class, but not for income above $250,000.

This is the deal that sounds good to me.

Tax cuts for the Middle Class and the wealthy have to give something back because the "Job Creator's didn't create jobs like the Bush Tax cuts intended to.

Why are Congressman Boehner and Senator McConnell holding it up?

The White House defines "entitlement reform" as Medicare and Medicaid… They do NOT believe Social Security should be included.

And it shouldn't. Medicare and Medicaid are fine. They are NOT part of the budget. They have their own accounts worth Trillions.

The President is holding all the cards on this deal.

A Royal Flush.

Either get it done before Christmas so you all can look good and pat each other on the back,

OR,

The Democrats and the NEW congress will get it done the first of the year and the GOP will look like idiots.

Again.

Salud

Mr. McCain forgets to take his Alzheimer medication sometimes.

Sorry Joe in Albany, but Ms. Rice is going up to SPANK the three clowns that truly only hate our President, not Ms. Rice.

Go get-um Susan.

While I have never been a fan of McCain and will not waste an ounce of breath defending that man, it would be nice if you libs would see the same truth about some of your sorry excuses for flesh bags like Reid, Pelosi, Wassershultz, etc.

Also, why don't I see any mention of reform towards food stamps and welfare? Sooooo many people on my tax dollars that shouldn't be.

Hat in hand? Are you kidding Joe? The lady is going to call McCains bluff right to his face, and she is bringing the head of the CIA with her, we will see who has their hat in their hand after that meeting. It won't be Rice with her hat in her hand, McCain is already backing down on national TV, once again he will prove there is no foll like an old fool. It's sad to watch but his captors in Vietnam did not torture McCain as much as he has tortured himself trying to be what he thinks he needs to be from moment to moment to please factions of his party for the last 8 years. He ranks just behind Mitt Romney in self contradictions made in public, it's past time that he join those other two grumpy Muppet's in the balcony, they may be able to shore up his credibility a bit.

Well, one thing is clear: NONE of the FR lefty liberals has an ounce of executive management and negotiating experience or skills.

When YOU are in a conflict situation and YOU ask for the meeting with your opponents and then haul YOUR ass over to their turf for the meeting. YOU ARE NOT the Alpha or the Beta wolf. YOU ARE the Subordinate or the Omega wolf.

http://www.runningwiththewolves.org/Behavior1.htm

LMFAO!!!!!

You all are a sad lot. Why are you so juvenile to call people names in hopes of bipartisanship? That shows ignorance and a lack of common sense and void of intelligence. Probably because bipartisanship scares you. Why are you so juvenile to think that adults/politicians get together in a room to spank each other. What will that do to solve the problems and establish a united government? That probably scares you as well. Adults solve disagreements through discussions, negotiations and compromise but that scares you as well. You don't want civility do you. That's the bottom line. You want the Springer show.

Well, one thing is clear: NONE of the FR lefty liberals has an ounce of executive management and negotiating experience or skills.

Oh, and you do? Very unlikely. You're a talker, not a doer.

You've got it exactly backwards. Susan Rice saw an opportunity--and seized it. She's a very smart woman. McCain boxed himself in and was looking for a way out. She has given it to him.

Well, one thing is clear: NONE of the FR lefty liberals has an ounce of executive management and negotiating experience or skills.

When YOU are in a conflict situation and YOU ask for the meeting with your opponents and then haul YOUR ass over to their turf for the meeting. YOU ARE NOT the Alpha or the Beta wolf. YOU ARE the Subordinate or the Omega wolf.

Fascinating, Joe...so when all of you Conservatives screamed your heads off calling President Obama weak because he wouldn't accept Netanyahu's request to meet with him in September it was really the other way around and it was Netanyahu who was weak?

Rice to meet with 3 Senate critics why is my question? Is it possible Obama will make her sec. of state and she will not have to be asked why she went on five TV programs as said what she did on the attack of four Americans in open hearings to conform her. I bet the three Senators come out and say they are happy they cleared everything up and if they do they are now part of the cover up. This is like the circus it came to town and never left, Bottom line four Americans died and no one seems to care.

Joe seems to not understand diplomacy and how it plays out ... Just how many worldwide ambassadors daily walk into the lion's den?

allenjames

Bottom line four Americans died and no one seems to care.

I am not an American and even I care ... and so does everyone else on this board.

The topics for today's discussion:

Susan Rice vs. the three Stooges. Ms. Rice is a class act. If we had more people in government like her and fewer like McCain and Graham we'd be far better off.

The Fiscal Cliff, tax increases for the wealthy and the so-called entitlement programs. WELL, I've about come to the conclusion we should let the GOP commit political suicide and drive us off the fiscal cliff. Yeah, it will be painful and especially hard for certain segments of our society (like the defense contractors) but the suffering will be worth it when we take back the House in the interim elections in 2014. Social Security and Medicare are NOT entitlements in my book. We EARNED those benefits by paying into them. I've been working for 50 years and I've been paying into those programs for most of that time. I've EARNED those benefits. Medicaid is a different story because it is more what I think of a an entitlement. Maybe I'm confused in my definition. But I paid for my Social Security and Medicare (which I probably won't use because my current benefit package is better and I can take it with me when I retire for only about $100 more than the Medicare and Medi-gap policies covering my wife) so keep you grimy hands off. I paid for these programs, nobody GAVE them to me.

I don't know, maybe I'm just getting crotchety in my old age, but I'm getting damned tired of all this petty bickering in Washington. I'm tired of all the lies and propaganda being spoon-fed to a gullible segment of our society who are too lazy or too dull to think for themselves.

Well, it's the Holidays, Christmas for the Christians, Hannukah for the Jews and a pain in the keester for the rest of us.

Ugh, is it 2013 yet?

Ambassador Rice is going to the Hill to smooth the way for her confirmation. That makes sense and is

a fitting endgame move for the faux scandal that the Republicans tried to foist on the administration

and the public. It's important not to spank elephant ass over this, because that's going to be used

for the "fiscal cliff" (man, I hate that term) negotiations. If the Banner of Red denizens maintain their

intransigence over this issue, 2014 should be a lock, regardless of what Nate Silver is prognosticating.

As far as 2016, can we just get a break of a year, or even six months, for cripes sake! I'm as political

as the next person, but come on; do you guys need the ad revenue that badly to start the hype so

soon? Oh, wait, I must have blacked out on what country I inhabit, so sorry.

In conclusion, John McCain is a d!ck and Lindsey Graham is a p^ssy; so why is it the country gets

F#CKED? I mean, they've got each other; amiright or amiright?

We need to know what happened in Benghazi, the who, what, where and why of it in order to prevent a similar tragedy in the future. The GOP boys, however, seem determined to witch hunt rather than seek answers.

And why has it taken the Administration so long to give the answers to some very simple questions? Who refused the enhanced security requested by Ambassador Stevens, and who changed the CIA assessment from probable terrorist attack to a claim that it was a youtube video? I can accept the explanation that they did not want to reveal the status of the investigation, but someone made the decision to go with the video story that was a known lie at the time. Who made that decision?

Very simple questions that allocate responsibility. Why are the answers so long in coming?

"Hi Ho, Hi Ho, it's off the cliff we go........ (whistling)"

Want to try and play tough house Republicans? Democrats have a strategy.

Joe in Albany: the nature of how our government was set up requires that members of the Executive Branch go to the Legislative branch to report.

In addition, since both Susan Rice and Michael Morrell will have to appear in front of the Senate Intelligence committee to be confirmed as Secretary of State and CIA Director, respectively, it is a good idea to clean up the foolishness that has been spouted by McCain and Graham. Neither Senator really wants this to be done in front of the camera's. The Senator's already look foolish enough without having the acting director of the CIA sit in front of the nation and tell the nation the Senator's did a "Fire, Ready, Aim" about Benghazi, again.

Since losing the Presidency in 2008, John McCain, Lindsey Graham and the Republican party have been in the mode of obstruction, even at the cost of improvement of the country. While it may win you points with the extremist part of your party, it is not how you govern. To govern, you need to act in the best interest of the entire country, not just the extremist elements within your own party.

Seems the gang of three have dug their heels in.

elliot-3020456

0bama is playing politics with the nations economy. Tell him to stop holding us hostage.

It's Boehner who's threatening to hold the entire US economy hostage. He told the president that the debt ceiling is "leverage" to get what he wants and that "there is a price for everything." Will Boehner demand his ransom payment in a note put together from newspaper headlines of varying font size?

This is REALLY troubling news. The extremist rightwingers in the House were frustrated in their failed attempt to deny Obama a second term by impeding the economic recovery. Now it looks like they're going to totally wreck the economy in their tantrum over Obama's reelection. And as G.W. Bush showed, the one thing Republicans are good at is wrecking the economy. See the Politico artlce below:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1112/84253.html?hp=t1

@foreplinger -- Nice double spacing but void of any rational thought. I remember Needle Nose Ned getting punched. Ned!!! Ned Rierson!!!! POW

Obama is such a putz ! Has anyone told the incompetent President that he might actually be able to GET MORE DONE with Congress .... if he would actually sit down with the leaders, talk, negotiate and actually WORK on the problems ... instead of running to some state trying to sell it to the American people.

Obama's leadership style is like trying to fly an airplane backwards ! Work with your ELECTED officials Mr. President.

Obama has met with Republicans several time, both in person and on the phone. Yes, he will campaign and bring his proposals to the public. Democrats, are waiting for this, and will be calling our representatives accordingly.

Do Republicans ever tire of the same old talking points?

Alex,i.25/I agree with you that there are too many needless on our tax dollar. I can't see why the Oil Cos. are still collecting benefits with all of their profits.Big Business that are making huge profits should never be given subsidies ,even under the guise of encouragement. The encouragement they are already receiving i.e. huge profits for their business outlay.

Well, it's the Holidays, Christmas for the Christians, Hannukah for the Jews and a pain in the keester for the rest of us.

Ugh, is it 2013 yet?

Thanks Skip; I needed that.

Republicans are republicans. Accordingly, the President should expect nothing meaningful out of them. Susan Rice should never have agreed to meet McCain and Turkey Neck. All this is typical republican distraction. Just a case of the dogs needing some rest before they resume their egg sucking.

Chuck Todd has it wrong. That so many Republicans were re-elected to their House seats does NOT mean voters approve of their foot-dragging and obstructionism. It does not mean they support continuing with the stalemate game played by the GOP.

Most Americans agree with Obama that taxes should go up for the wealthiest 2%. MOST AMERICANS! That doesn't mean only Democrats. It means that the majority of Republican middle class voters want our wealthiest citizens to pay more in taxes. We won the election, and we need to win this fight.

Voting for a candidate does not equate to supporting every single position taken by said candidate. As voters, we need to contact our representatives in Congress and make clear to them--Republicans and Democrats-- that we are fed up with their stalemating and posturing. This is their last chance. The issue of utmost importance now is the economy: creating jobs, stabilizing the deficit, and working together for the good of the country. The other B.S. (like Benghazi-gate) can wait. Quit with your distraction games, GOP.

Chuck Todd seems to feel his role in the media is to create controversy rather than to deliver news and provide thoughtful, careful analysis. Be better than that, Chuck. Your country needs you to be better than that.

Joe I have had both negotiating experience on behalf of 4,800 members, and management experience. Rice let McCain and others talk themselves into a frenzy now she will set them straight, in the end they will bemoan some vague notion as the "system" or the "administration" for not being omnipotent in all manners, they will not pin a single thing on Rice. The more they talk the more they will have to generalize their complaints because it is clear that Rice did nothing wrong, and she is smart enough to let them hang themselves with their rope. Say Joe do you think it is a bit strange that these guys never worried about hundreds of private contractors being killed in Iraq under GW Bush's administration, or the fact that republicans turned down the request for more funds for embassy security. They are never consistent - with their rhetoric and their actions, and it is killing the GOP brand with voters. The Obama is all bad all the time strategy is failing badly, like I said they appear to be nothing more than crabby Muppet's in the balcony, the nation has grown tired of their act.

Must have been channelling my "inner Ben".

Seriously though, if you have a refutation I'd be interested to read it, otherwise you're just a troll.

But...you knew that...amiright?

Obama to head to Philly 'burbs on Friday to campaign on averting the fiscal cliff

Same old agenda from the past four years.....go on the campaign trail to garnish Public Opinion on his agenda since he cannot LEAD from the White House.

Oh, that is right, Mr. Obama said he "couldn't get anything done from the White House" last year.

Wait a minute....HE IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Fielden - I was just thinking the same thing. Apparently jim believes the President should just set up camp with the Republican leaders instead of moving on and doing his job. The President is smart and knows that if he gets the people behind his program, Republicans will have to go along. There IS another election in 2014 and my guess is the Grumpy Old Perverts would like to be re-elected!

Ido - yes, he IS the President and if we had a dictatorship he could get everything done without Republican support. But, as most of us here know (apparently not you), we DON'T have a dictatorship and Republicans have refused to cooperate for the good of the country. So, the President will do the smart thing and get the people behind him! Please, try to keep up!

It's important not to spank elephant ass over this, because that's going to be used

for the "fiscal cliff" (man, I hate that term) negotiations.

Yes...but it would be sooo much fun to spank elephant ass over Benghazi! They have it coming, and boy do I want to see them get it. Call it payback for Abu Ghraib if you like.

Now, back to being a rational, non-vengeful member of the winning side... ;)

...still celebrating here...

Ido - I was thinking the same thing.

I want to know what the hell the fetish is with "traveling". All he has to do is call a news conference to present his case. Why go to "certain cities" to plead his case? Why not just park his a$$ in the WH where it belongs and stay in Washington?

Wait, I answered my own question. I forgot what a narcissist this guy is and I am sure with the election and campaigning almost a month behind us, he has to go get his "live audience love" fix to refill his ego. Can't do that on TV.

Voting for a candidate does not equate to supporting every single position taken by said candidate.

But yet we move forward with Obamacare.

As voters, we need to contact our representatives in Congress and make clear to them--Republicans and Democrats-- that we are fed up with their stalemating and posturing. This is their last chance. The issue of utmost importance now is the economy: creating jobs, stabilizing the deficit, and working together for the good of the country. The other B.S. (like Benghazi-gate) can wait. Quit with your distraction games, GOP.

You honestly think that raising taxes on the top 2% will stabilize the deficit? Even the President does not make that claim. Yet the Democrats will not put one spending cut on the table. Senator Durban basically dismissed any structural changes to Medicare or Social Security. All Democrats are looking for is more revenue. More and more Republicans are stating publicly they will support raising revenue. Where are the Democrats who are calling for real entitlement reform?

As I said yesterday if we go over the fiscal cliff it is the low income workers who will be affected the most by the return to the Clinton tax code. The Republicans still control the House, so unless Democrats are looking at the fiscal cliff as a possible political victory they are the ones who must start negotiating and stop posturing.

Reading partway through this and seeing the twit-squad comments of Joey, Jimmy and Elliot has given me an epiphany this morning!... "you can't fix stupid" is an untrue statement... More accurately put, you don't even need to worry about fixing stupid because it has its own tools!

If they were worthy of a question, or could be relied on to answer one, i guess it would be: To inform the populace (and the squealing pig republicans) as early as possible, who wouldn't repeat what the CIA was saying? And the second question of course (because you three stink of it even over the internet) would be why the same methodology used for generations suddenly isn't good enough for you with this administration? Why oh why could that be???

Every presidential administration in the past has repeated what the CIA reports to them and that's been seen as reasonable even if not exactly right in the long run. All of a sudden, par for the course isn't "good" enough? You've no idea how desperately stupid this tack looks to the VAST majority of ACTUAL Americans.

(I added that last sentence just to show my disgust at all the months of hearing the candied evangelized voices proclaiming majority status for the minority of 'Merka)

Aaahhh, Speeking Insanity, What you are truly telling us is that Barack Obama is INCAPABLE of providing the real leadership needed. He must run to the people, because he cannot handle the issues directly. Obama campaigns when the election is over .... he goes "back door" once again, because he doesn't have the ball$ or the experience to get it done directly ..... and he runs to "friendly Philadelphia" where, in quite a few districts, Obama "magically" received 100% of the votes .... defying ALL statistical probability !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Grow a pair Mr. President ! The Dems control the Senate, and you gained seats in the House. Are you really that weak you cannot handle the issues directly, or do you run to your "base" where no one dares to question your absurdities ????

@Chuck #1.55, If you "can't fix stupid" then fine, we will not try to fix you !

Ben -"You all are a sad lot. Why are you so juvenile to call people names in hopes of bipartisanship? That shows ignorance and a lack of common sense and void of intelligence. Probably because bipartisanship scares you"

Give me a break Ben, it was republicans that publicaly stated numerous times from the start that they would employ a Waterloo strategy to thwart this president.

Talk to the Hand - no he's not a narcissist - you're just ignorant and a hater. Get over it. President Obama IS President for another 4 years. Grow up and instead of continuing to hate why not be part of the solution and start getting people to cooperate. Oh, I forgot - that's NOT the republican way!

jim- as usual you have nothing of value to contribute. Our President, like those leaders before him - Regan, Clinton, etc, - will go to the people to stop the obstuctionists in Congress. I'm sorry that's too much for your small brain to comprehend but most of us understand it completely.

No, you are the poster child for "you can't fix stupid!"

Still gargling on the big loss eh Jimmynumbers? And you accuse your President of absurdity?

@Forest Grump, You are quite fascinating .... referring to Ben as "a sad lot", "juvenile", then attacking education, intellectual ability and intelligence ALL in a statement ..... indicating a personal attack ! Hypocrite much ?

Then you distort the hell out of a SINGLE statement by a SINGLE Republican several years back as your basis ?

Our country is over $16 trillion in debt and Obama has no HAD a Budget during his first term. Over $.40 of every dollar is going just to debt service ! Obama's increased tax desires will do little to offset the massive annual deficits .... only about 8.5 days !

ldo & Talk,

2001 - After an attempt to charm Congress into backing his huge tax cut, President Bush set out yesterday on a nationwide tour to persuade Americans of the benefits of a $1.6 trillion refund.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1324629/Bush-hits-road-to-sell-his-budget-tax-cuts.html

2005 - Bush hits road to promote Social Security plan. President Bush on Thursday kicked off a 5 state tour in North Dakota to push his plan to overhaul Social Security, an issue highlighted in his State of the
Union address.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/02/03/bush/index.html

kaybeetoys

Chuck Todd has it wrong. That so many Republicans were re-elected to their House seats does NOT mean voters approve of their foot-dragging and obstructionism. It does not mean they support continuing with the stalemate game played by the GOP.

The punditocracy doesn't like to mention it, but the House Democratic candidates won the popular vote overall. They got Al-Gored by the Republicans' gerrymandering. The Republicons have zero popular mandate for anything. But they'll pretend they do, just like Bush did in 2001 when he acted like his MINUS 500K vote margin was a mandate.

@Dennis

Yes the similarities between Bush and Obama are quite amazing.

Why not just park his a$$ in the WH where it belongs...

Well, Read from the Hand, it sure is nice to have you admit that the right man for the job is in the White House. Obama does indeed belong in the White House. Yep, right there, in the White House. :)

However, as POTUS he governs from any and all locations. Since he was targeted by the GOP to be a one-term president, he has learned that he needs to make his case directly to the people (those 'of the people, by the people and for the people' people). Obama knows where his support lies, and he knows where (or should that be who?) the roadblocks are.

Barack Obama is a very smart man. That is why he lives in the White House, and not you. So let him govern as he sees fit without inane criticism, just for a day. Could you possibly do that?

If not, run for president yourself.

blackcatwhitecat

Can I borrow your glasses? I haven't read into stuff that way since the good old days of LSD.

Now THAT explains a LOT!

kaybeetoys - I'm afraid you're talking to a brick wall but I think we all understand that by now.

I wanted to thank you for supporting me in my little fiasco last week. Very nice and I truly appreciate it! Hope your Thanksgiving was outstanding!

M0-681343

... It's amazing what one bad chose can do to you.

Ambassitor Rice just wants to sit the two old white idiots and their follower straight Joe.

HAHAHAHAHH!!!!

Trying to interpret what this clown is saying is always good for a laugh!

SeekingSanity....

YOU need to "keep up". Remember Mr. Obama telling Senator McCain at a ObamaCare meeting: "I won...".

Which means it is Mr. Obama's way or the highway. Talk about a dictatorship....we just about have it right now with Obama in the Oval, his Mr. "Pocket Veto" Reid in the Senate, and his Progressive Cabinet members changing regulations to fit Mr. Obama's agenda because of his FAILED LEADERSHIP in the beltway.

So, "keep up".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FLYeisty is back off the campaign trail.

Ido - darlin, I DO keep up. You're the one that keeps trailing behind in facts, all relevant information. Yes, President Obama did remind McCain that Obama won -and he clearly needs to do it again. The befuddled old man is so bitter he can't make any logical decisions anymore. He just reacts out of his hatred of all things President Obama does - a lot like you! So, try to Keep Up!

The punditocracy doesn't like to mention it...

The punditocracy needs to quit loafing and start working. They don't seem to do much besides stirring up lame controversies. Chuck Todd and David Gregory are two who provide plenty of heat but very little light.

For Chuck Todd to claim that the stalemate in Washington is bound to continue merely because most of the GOP congresspeople were re-elected is simplistic at best, and cynical, short-sighted faux journalism at worst.

All we have to do is look at his record to see that he generally skims the surface, goes with the prevailing breeze, and has demonstrated very little skill at looking deeper into the issues.

What ever happened to the media as the Fourth Estate in America? Has Rupert Murdoch destroyed that with his tabloid money?

Eric-913730

"Hi Ho, Hi Ho, it's off the cliff we go........ (whistling)"

Want to try and play tough house Republicans? Democrats have a strategy.

And that strategy would be what? A political victory?

“If the fiscal cliff is not avoided, a large negative shock could bring the U.S. and the global economy into recession,” the Paris-based OECD said in its Economic Outlook report released today.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-11-27/u-dot-s-dot-fiscal-cliff-could-lead-global-recession-oecd-says

The Fiscal Cliff Spares the Poor

Yglesias also claims that going over the fiscal cliff would not hurt lower-income earners very much - rather it is only the high earners that take the hit. This myth may stem from the initial design of the sequester, which exempted many mandatory programs that provide benefits for lower-income households, including Medicaid and food stamps. However, the sequester hits discretionary spending very hard, a significant amount of which goes to programs designed to help low income people, such as low-income rental housing assistance, heating assistance, and Title 1 education funding to name a few.

On the tax side, while the expiration of the upper-income tax brackets has received much of the attention, it's also important to remember that the 10 percent bracket, payroll tax holiday, and expansions of the EITC and the CTC will all expire. In total, taxes will rise on the lowest income quintile by 3.7 percent, with an average tax increase of $412.

Finally, extended unemployment benefits would go away as part of the cliff - a big hit to lower income households given how high unemployment is today. The resulting recession from the cliff would hurt lower income people more than the greater population, further compounded by the expiration of extended unemployment benefits. Clearly the fiscal cliff has serious implications for the most vulnerable in society.

http://crfb.org/blogs/tackling-fiscal-cliff-myths

So as long as we understand that the Democratic strategy is to risk global recession and to hurt the working poor then we should be supportive? The Republicans are publicly stating they will support increased revenue, what is the Democratic response?

Joe in Albany ....

Well, one thing is clear: NONE of the FR lefty liberals has an ounce of executive management and negotiating experience or skills.

Speak for yourself kiddo. I've never commented on your inane posts but for you to draw that conclusion off of what I and other liberal posters state. Well, speaks VOLUMES about tin foil hats!

I thinks I understand why this site is so filled with hate...

This is a dog-person vs. cat-person site...

Look at the avatars of those people that post the craziest, most hate filled comments... they all have cats as their avatars.

It's the CRAZY CAT LADIES that are spewing all the hate here. And just like those crazy cat ladies... whey walk around mumbling to themselves... saying things that no one can understand.

:O)

Unbelievable:

The witch hunters have doubled down on their foray. Now that they have met they Susan Rice as troubling. What I find as troubling is the tres amigos: John McCain, Lindsey Graham, and Kelly Ayotte continual endeavor to find Susan Rice responsible for the report she was asked to give. Particularly, since the report she gave is no different than others given related to national-security-related reasons in Washington :

It was the Office of the Director of National Intelligence that took the words "al Qaeda" and "terrorism" out of Rice's talking points for those Sept. 16 talk shows. It found also that both the CIA and the FBI approved of these edits, following standard operating procedure. The report states emphatically: "The White House or State Department did not make those changes."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/25/michael-tomasky-on-how-john-mccain-humiliated-himself-on-susan-rice.html

GOP ZOO Animals are always hunting for fresh meat just to harm President Obama indirectly through Susan Rice when there is nothing there for them to get !!!

But, what do these animals care? They are the domestic terrorist. I don't suppose for national-security-related reasons they would take into account the terrorist knowledge of being accused would put jeopardy toward Americans safety?

Oh well!

Over $.40 of every dollar is going just to debt service !

What in God's name are you talking about? Interest on the national debt is about 6% of the budget and about 1.4% of GDP.

In the latest development in the “fiscal cliff” negotiations, the White House announced this morning that President Obama will be hitting the road on Friday to make his case that the Bush tax cuts should be extended for the middle class, but not for income above $250,000.

So raising taxes on those making over $250,000 will prevent us from going over the fiscal cliff?

@Forest Grump, You are quite fascinating .... referring to Ben as "a sad lot", "juvenile", then attacking education, intellectual ability and intelligence ALL in a statement ..... indicating a personal attack ! Hypocrite much ?

Uh Jim you are quite confused, go back and read Ben's post, the words above are Ben's words not mine, that is why I put them in quotation marks, I simply asked him to give me a break with that nonsense. Ha I do however agree with you that I am "quite fascinating".

BTW it was stated by numerous republicans on numerous occasions that is a well document fact. It was their number one priority by their own admission. It did not work very well. They only wanted to accomplish one thing and they did not get it done.

I wanted to thank you for supporting me in my little fiasco last week. Very nice and I truly appreciate it! Hope your Thanksgiving was outstanding!

You're welcome, Seeking Sanity...I know you'd do the same for me and for anyone who was being personally attacked here. This is an anonymous forum for a reason. Some of us have no wish to reveal our private information to others who would attempt to attack and discredit us. We do not have to justify ourselves here. We need to defend our opinions, not our credentials. Just because you have had the benefit of an excellent education doesn't give anyone the right to question your honesty.

Alex,i.25/I agree with you that there are too many needless on our tax dollar. I can't see why the Oil Cos. are still collecting benefits with all of their profits.Big Business that are making huge profits should never be given subsidies ,even under the guise of encouragement. The encouragement they are already receiving i.e. huge profits for their business outlay.

Even though you're coming across like a liberal cock (what's new there!) I'm going to agree with you. Along with that, I'd like the whole ethanol boondoggle to stop and our farmers start growing food again. I'd also like to stop paying farmers not to grow certain foods. I'd like foreign aid to stop going to countries that look on us as the enemy. There's a lot I'd like :)

Beverly - I agree with your 2d paragraph that it was the Director of National Intelligence that took the words "Al Qaeda" out of Rice's talking points. Peterus stated he did not know who made the changes nor did he say who in the CIA might have approved of the changes.

However, anyone who believes that the Director of National Intelligence, Mr. Clapper, did not inform the President of the U.S. needs a wake up call. Mr. Clapper, DNI, prepares the daily intelligence reports for the President based on information he receives from numerous intelligence agencies. Now, either Mr. Clapper withheld that information from President Obama or President Obama never read those intelligence reports. If Clapper withheld the information and the changes in talking points, then he should be fired immediately. BTW, why was the UN Ambassador picked, and by whom, to go on the Sunday talk shows instead of someone from the State Department, CIA or Office of National Intelligence?

Houston...et, all....You guys won....you fix it. You didn't like our plan...yours must be so much better...other than raising taxes what cuts will you make??? What is your plan....we wait with baited breath to hear it.....

It's not our problem...your side won and Empty Suit should have the answer...you fix it. For some reason you think because you have no plan other than to raise taxes it's our fault???? We're not required to fix anything.....Elections have consequences....this is your problem..we had a plan and it was rejected...Your Empty Suit can't even get a budget through...it was laughed out of the Senate which you control....that's got to sting.....

Why should we have to go along with raising taxes??? Your guy should have a back up plan in the event that taxes don't get raised...he so smart.....

So come on Empty Suit....Fix it....the clock is ticking......It's going to get ugly when the clock runs out and the Empty Suit still hasn't found an answer....unemployment will spike...Wall Street will tank...Defense will suffer....there won't be money to give to those who got the Empty Suit elected.....Wow what a day that will be and you know who's fault it will be??? The Empty Suit's as he has no plan...the emperor will have no clothes...how sad.....

Michael Thompson in NC, probably what was meant by the comment is that for every dollar spent, we add $.40 to the national debt, since we are only collecting enough taxes to pay for ~60% of what we are currently spending. We need to either double the taxes on everyone or cut spending in order to balance the budget and start reducing the deficit. Simply raising taxes on the wealthy doesn't get this country back on track. Obama's current proposal only raises $1.6T over 10 years. That is enough to only balance the budget for 1 year. It's time for the President that was elected to step up and lead and make the hard decisions necessary to bring this country back to prosperity.

Sooooo many people on my tax dollars that shouldn't be.

You are right! Now, how did they get there?

When Bush took office, unemployment was 4.0%. The aptly named Bush Recession put 17 million people out of work! Nor since the Great Depression has any single administration put sooooo many taxpayers out of work and onto the government dole.

EE, newsflash, the election is over so you can stop with the lies about Bush crashing the economy. However, if you really still believe that garbage, go do some research and read the report as to what caused the financial crisis AND then dig a little deeper into the deregulation of derivatives ("complex financial instruments") and what was provided for as "security". There is plenty of blame to go around BOTH parties and SEVERAL administrations. It might surprise you to find out that one of the first pieces to the puzzle was signed into law by Jimmy Carter, then Reagan added some, then Bush, then Clinton, then Bush, Jr! You also seem to forget that "W" inherited the recession caused by the bursting of the "Dot-Com Bubble". Then, 9/11 happened and caused more financial crisis. Oh yeah, it was Bush's fault for 9/11, too! Perhaps you should go research how the US responded to the bombing of the USS Cole or how we responded to the first bombing of the WTC. Just make sure that you don't let any facts that you find influence your thinking!!! Ignorance is bliss. There will be many more challenges that face us as a nation. The problem is that we need problem SOLVERS in Washington, not problem SPOTTERS! Spending $3.5T per year when you are only bringing in $2T per year doesn't get us where we need to be and neither does only raising taxes on the rich balance the budget and pay down the deficit. At the spending rates of the last 4 years, you would have to double the taxes on everyone to pay for our current level of spending and retire the deficit in 20 years. That my friend, is scary stuff! Obama only wants to raise taxes on "the rich" by $1.6T over 10 years. That alone does not get us there! When is it going to be time to stop pointing fingers and start fixing the problem?

Wouldn't it be More Productive if Our Elected Leaders Started Working Together as AMERICANS for AMERICANS and AMERICA, instead of just bickering, stalling and posturing for the next election as democrats and republicans! The American People have had it with this unproductive BS! The sad thing is that both parties stink! Neither party is really looking out for the best interest of the US Citizens who elect them and who they're supposed to represent.

If Both Parties don't start actually doing something to fixthe real problems in our country like "out-sourcing", illegal immigration, the out of control costs of health care insurance and our reliance on foreign fuel by the next election - American citizens may just have to run a nation-wide campaign to vote out every single incumbent elected official from office regardless of party, so that maybe then they'll finally get the message.

"Blessed are they who run around in Circles ... for they shall be known as "wheels" !

Obama is a very "Big Wheel" ... he runs around in circles, gets nowhere, wets himself with a water pistol now and then and gives speeches to anyone who will listen to his self-declared "greatness".

Meanwhile, back in the U.S.A., the National Debt is over $16 trillion. Obama has never HAD a budget and a "fiscal cliff" is where he has our country moving toward ! His desired tax increases are woefully inadequate and his only acceptable spending cuts would be to the military. Then, he wants to give away more money we don't have !

Gee Jim, No apology for old Forrest? Jim you know what else wheels do, they move people to where they need to go.

Forrest - How are you doing, and how is your job going? Good I hope. You know we used to have a saying in the Army that is was not good to be the wheel, because a wheel is something that rolls through s**t and the dogs pi$$ on. Have a good day.

Hi Sarge, I am doing fine, and hope you are as well. The new job has had me in five states in just about as many weeks, I will home for a few weeks then I will travel to Mexico for my next project and be home just a few days before Xmas. It's good to be home Sarge, but I guess nobody would know that better than an old soldier like you.

Alan, NJ

Voting for a candidate does not equate to supporting every single position taken by said candidate.

But yet we move forward with Obamacare.

If you don't like it, propose your own plan or tell your party to do that will do MORE than Obamacare will.

You honestly think that raising taxes on the top 2% will stabilize the deficit? Even the President does not make that claim. Yet the Democrats will not put one spending cut on the table. Senator Durban basically dismissed any structural changes to Medicare or Social Security. All Democrats are looking for is more revenue. More and more Republicans are stating publicly they will support raising revenue. Where are the Democrats who are calling for real entitlement reform?

No, but it's better than cutting nondefense discretionary spending. And actually, Democrats are smart in negotiating on taxes FIRST, so that we don't get a knife in our back when the GOP turns around and says "Sorry, fingers crossed." Spending cuts ARE on the table, we all agree on that; revenues still have to be negotiated. And a small but growing number of Democrats are urging entitlement reform; just not reform that makes it regressive.

As I said yesterday if we go over the fiscal cliff it is the low income workers who will be affected the most by the return to the Clinton tax code. The Republicans still control the House, so unless Democrats are looking at the fiscal cliff as a possible political victory they are the ones who must start negotiating and stop posturing.

Actually, Republicans (due to their intransigence over the past 2 years with this issue) ought to start negotiate; a condition for that is raising tax rates for the rich. Not necessarily to 39.6%, but at least up; Democrats technically won on Election Day (furthering Democratic ranks in BOTH houses and the White House). Then we can talk about base broadening and then entitlement and spending reform.

Here is my plan for responsible deficit reduction and sustainable economic growth:

I Tax Reform

• End the Bush tax cuts for the top 2% now=$800 billion.
• End remaining Bush tax cuts in 2015=$2.4 trillion.
• Increase top tax rate by 2.4%, next 2 rates by 3%=$418.4 billion.
• Raise capital gains taxes by 6%=$145.5 billion.
• Phase out the Mortgage Interest deduction starting in 2014=$214.6 billion.
• Cap Local/State Tax Deduction to 2% of AGI=$629.3 billion.
• Tax Employer-Paid Premiums=$311.5 billion.
• End Extraction Industry Expenses=$10 billion.
• Extend Investment Cost Depreciation=$241.4 billion.
• Reduce corporate tax rates by 8%=-$804.8 billion.
• Tax Worldwide Corporate Income as Earned=$88.1 billion.
• Increase Motor Fuel Excise tax by 50 cents=$582 billion.

II Discretionary Spending

• Freeze Defense Spending at 2011 levels=$610.7 billion.
• Reduce Non-Defense Spending Growth to 1% a Year=$326.7 billion.
• Finance Food Safety Operations with Fees=$11.6 billion.
• Reduce Federal Pay by .25% Annually till 2021=$50.2 billion.

III Mandatory Spending (Entitlements)

• Reduce Crop Insurance Subsidies=$11.8 billion
• Increase Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac fees=$26.5 billion.
• Add Public Option to Healthcare Exchanges=$88 billion.
• Copayment for Medicare Home Health Episodes=$40.1 billion.
• Change Cost-Sharing Structures for Medicare and Medigap=$92.5 billion.
• Increase Medicare Part B Premium to 35%=$241.2 billion.
• Medicare Part D Drug Manufacturers Rebate=$112 billion.
• Implement Progressive Price Indexing=$84.6 billion.
• Raise Early Social Security Retirement Age to 64 by 2025=$143.9 billion.
• Increase Social Security Payroll Tax Cap to 90% of Earned Income=$456.7 billion.
• Increase Medicare Payroll tax by 1.5%=$976.2 billion.
• Bundle Medicare Payments into a Pay for Performance System.

Savings over 10 years=$9.28 trillion.

IV The American Economic Recovery Act

• Earmarking of $1.8 trillion in direct federal spending over 5 years to rebuild and repair American roads and bridges, highways, surface and underground facilities and systems, and modernization of electrical grid.
• $150 billion direct investment in a National Infrastructure Bank; focuses on airports, harbors, and development of high-speed rail and light-rail, along with monorails, modernized public transportation systems, and urbanized transportation systems.
• Increase R&D to 3.5% of GDP by 2013=$120 billion.
• Reform Immigration along lines of McCain-Kennedy bill: increase H1-B visa cap to 325,000 a year; restrict sponsorships to nuclear family and no sponsorships from sponsored relatives; prioritize immigration to have 64% of immigrants based on economic reasons by 2030; allow for 350,000 low-skilled workers to be employed in U.S. for 5 years and offer maximum of 3 reapplications for registering in said worker program; immediately enact Dream Act and allow all non-criminal illegal immigrants to apply for citizenship and wait 15 years while paying taxes. Give green card to every immigrant with a college degree.
• Education reform: federal government funds 33% of total education spending with a 6% VAT; merit-based pay with minimum floor on pay at about 75% of local median income and a 15% bonus for teachers moving to troubled neighborhoods; increase school standards and reduce standardized tests to 2 every year; conduct a commission of education experts and economists from all over the world for further reforms; establish commission to find waste and fraud in education funding system; end funding for all charter schools with performance levels at or below public school levels. Focus hiring on top 10-15% of college graduates; reduce college tuition via reforming student loans, increase in college aid for both public and private colleges and universities, and allow students to have collective bargaining rights for tuition negotiation.
• Establish Department of Tourism; hire 150,000 employees, establish yearly budget of $34 billion, and speed up time for getting a tourist visa.
• Invest $100 billion in clean energy research over 10 years and establish green infrastructure bank with $40 billion in direct funding; create green fuel stations, modernize public transportation energy sources, and allow people to sell electricity back to the grid.
• Establish cap and trade system; set target to reduce emissions by 75% by 2070.
• Increase NASA budget by 20%; focus on space transport vehicles powered by lithium ion fuel.
• Re-draft all free trade negotiations; establish a flat, 30% tariff on imports and subsidize crucial industries (automotive, aircraft, high-tech), establish national industrial policy.
• Repeal Taft-Hartley, pass American Codetermination Act (requires 12-20 man board of supervisors for companies with more than 3200 employees and require that 50% of supervisors be elected by employees).
• Increase minimum wage to $9.15 and index it to inflation at 1960 levels.
• Establish a regulatory commission to simplify and strengthen regulatory code.
• Strengthen Dodd-Frank and break down financial institutions; cap size of financial institutions to 5% of GDP and regulate derivative markets; regulate all financial institutions (including non-banking institutions) and separate deposit banks from investment banks. Limit speculation and strengthen anti-trust laws.

Net Savings=$5.5 trillion over 10 years

The “fiscal cliff” fraud

27 November 2012

As the US Congress reconvenes following the Thanksgiving Day holiday, the media is once again ratcheting up its propaganda offensive over the so-called “fiscal cliff.”

Behind the orchestrated wrangling between the Obama administration and congressional Republicans over averting the supposed catastrophe of automatic tax increases and budget cuts due to take effect January 1, the details of plans to impose unprecedented cuts in Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security are being worked out behind the backs of the American people.

There is bipartisan agreement between the two corporate-controlled parties to slash social programs upon which tens of millions of working people rely for health care and retirement income. The main issue under debate is how to package the cuts so as to best confuse public opinion and obscure what is really happening.

In this, President Obama is taking a leading role. His primary concern is to make the slashing of social programs that keep millions out of poverty seem necessary, while providing this reactionary attack with a fig leaf of “fairness.”…

….Obama’s call for a token increase in taxes on the highest earners, whether in the form of an increase in the top tax rate or some lowering of deductions, is nothing but a smokescreen. Any slight tax increase that might initially be imposed on the rich would be more than offset by the “comprehensive tax reform” supported by both parties…

…The universal claim that there is “no money” for social programs is a lie. US corporations are currently sitting on a cash hoard estimated at between $2 trillion and $9 trillion. They are refusing to use this money to hire workers under the pretext that there is too much “uncertainty” regarding health care costs and business regulations. In plain language, the corporate-financial elite is blackmailing the American people to force through its agenda of destroying all of the social gains achieved in a century of working class struggle.

Trillions in taxpayer funds have been handed over to the banks in government bailouts, and trillions more have been squandered on imperialist wars in the Middle East, Central Asia and north Africa. Corporate profits, CEO pay and the fortunes of the top 1 percent have never been greater...

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/nov2012/pers-n27.shtml

concernedamerica

Nobody's lying, Bush crashing the economy is history and it won't change just because righties don't live in reality.

I suppose Obama is responsible for the 800,000 jobs being lost a month before he was ever president. I swear to God fools are willfully blind.

Independent, they took this loss badly. Good.

Perhaps it will be a wake up call, but I tend to doubt it. Progress and team work isn't part of their DNA. Looking out for those Americans who are struggling isn't their priority.

Power is their priority and always will be. And we the people will lose unless we work together to get them out bit by bit each election.

Until I see a plan that includes real reductions in spending, I'm against any tax increases. I do think tax increases (for everyone) are needed, but we need to get a handle on spending first.

Ron spending is already on the table as you well know so your point is moot. Just because you don't like it don't make a tinker's damn. Quit using the same old tired bushra. We the People are tired onto death of it.

Ron, the problem is what you want to cut. A balanced approach, including shrinking government and the military, combined with higher taxes on those that can afford it most is what most Americans want. Read the polls. It is interesting that at least some republicans have been reading the polls and are ready to do away with the "pledge". That in itself is step forward. Grover Norquist holds to much power for a person not elected to congress.

Ron -

Until I see a plan that includes real reductions in spending, I'm against any tax increases

President Obama campaigned on a plan to reduce the deficit via "real" cuts to defense spending in combination with increased revenues.

The revenue increases should come from some minor rate increases on the top tier along with an increase in the capital gains tax and the elimination of the "carried interest" loophole. In fact I would be willing to allow the top rates on earned income to stay the same if a much higher percentage of revenue was treated as 'earned income'.

I think that is at least a start to adressing the debt/deficit issue. A few rational "tweaks" to Medicare, Social Security and other entitlements would be the next step. I would recommend delaying other major spending cuts until the economy improves.

It is up to Obama. Either accept the GOP offer of no tax increases on anybody or Obama allowing tax increases on everybody. Obama has the opportunity today to make sure your taxes do not increase so if taxes increase it is because Obama wanted them to. So if taxes go up on everybody it is solely and entirely Obama's fault.

Soooooo, how is that whole "Hopey Changey" thing working out for you now?

Grover Norquist is nothing more than a cheap lobbyist that shouldn't be allowed within a 100 yards of the doors of Congress.

Sorry, we Republicans are not playing the "Lucy pulling the football away from Charlie Brown" anymore. For years Democrats say we need tax increases now and they will agree to spending cuts later (although it is REALLY not a spending cut but simply DECREASING the INCREASING budget - but that is for another discussion). But we are not falling for that anymore.

So here is the deal: When we see ACTUAL spending cuts THEN we will agree to tax increases. Spending cuts first to prove Democrats actually WILL cut spending and THEN I can get on board with some tax increases on everybody.

But Obama has a choice today: tax increases on nobody which is what the GOP has offered or Obama can decide to increase taxes on everybody. Entirely up to Obama. If taxes increase on you it is entirely and solely Obama's fault. He has the ability today to make sure you don't pay higher taxes.

IR, it's as if the GOP thinks they won. Their "revenues" idea is repeating what Romney/Ryan tried to sell only it was a NO SALE.

It's beyond me how a party can look at polls and still see something that isn't there. The GOP, despite all their chatter, cannot find enough loopholes to close not to mention that they, like Romney, refuse to say whose loopholes they will close. Guess what, GOPers, President Obama has said that he will not sign any legislation that doesn't eliminate the Bush tax cuts on the wealthiest 2%. What part of veto do they not understand; what part of the GOP lost do they not get.

As far as the fiscal curb on taxes, the current GOPers in Congress are not serious so just let them all expire. The new Congress, with more democrats in the House and Senate, will then have eager GOPers ready to "cut" taxes for the middle class or else risk being blamed. The POLLS said the GOP will be to blamed for that, too.

ProBusiness, actually it is republicans who have been saying tax cuts and more tax cuts will increase revenues for 30 years; it was they who promised to shrink government, cut spending later except all they did the opposite and all they did was cut taxes which added to the deficit and debt. That's the simple truth. Democrats aren't perfect but at least they try to pay for what they do--something republicans haven't done since Reagan took office.

Keep telling yourself that Pro, some day you might find it believable. However next election the people will decide who the obstructionist are and will vote accordingly and I don't think that election will go very good for what you believe in. Maybe you should get some facts before you decide to further try to demonize the setting president. The people voted him back in to do a job and part of that job is to right a wrong that has been going on for the last 30 years. Simply put I and most Americans know that trickle down economics is a failure as big a failure as the republican party in the last election.

Ron-

Until I see a plan that includes real reductions in spending, I'm against any tax increases. I do think tax increases (for everyone) are needed, but we need to get a handle on spending first.

Been there, done that.

It doesn't work, Ron.

The American People aren't going to follow that "Cut spending first, then raise revenue later" BS.

What a fricken crock.

Here's an idea. NO tax increases for the Middle Class, and raise the rates for the Wealthy back to the Clinton years.

Funny.

That's what the President is proposing.

BTW. Where were folks like you complaining about runaway spending during the Bush years?

Salud

Ron-1861300

Until I see a plan that includes real reductions in spending, I'm against any tax increases.

If your talking "means testing" Im with otherwise no friggin way!

Pro That Hopey Changey thing is working out just fine for me. Apparently it is you'll that don't want to change for money nor gold. Your using the same old arguements that you've used for the last 4 years. How's that working out for you'll Yahoo's so far.

ProBusiness

It is up to Obama. Either accept the GOP offer of no tax increases on anybody ...

That is an offer? No, that is my way or the highway negotiations.

Pro Business,

You senario is backwards.

The tax cuts will automately expire on Dec 31.

congress needs to extend them or do nothing. If they extend all of them, Obama will veto the bill,

because Obama has said that for those making over $250,000 the tax cuts need to expire.

If the House does not believe the President then they can override his veto.

It is up to Boehner and the GOPTP.....time is wasting. It is all up to them. can he find 218 votes in Congress?

Jeb Hensarling of Texas- that same state that blessed an unsuspecting nation with the wise and far-sighted stewardship of Tom DeLay, Dick Armey, Ron "all forms of government are unconstitutional" Paul, and too many others to name here- is worried about how "we can minimize the damage to the economy" after closing loopholes that give the wealthy an advantage not available to those of us who actually engage in productive activity, and raising the rates in order to more equitably tax those who benefit most from the rigged rules under which we operate now.

“Elections do have consequences,” said Rep. Jeb Hensarling of Texas. One consequence that this election clearly has not had, at least not yet, is to illuminate these fools, thieves, fixers and toadys-to-the-ultra-wealthy with the unrelenting light of truth: Increased government spending in a recessionary economy will generate economic activity far out of proportion to the amount of money that is actually spent. Giving tax breaks to the rich does nothing- I will repeat that, nothing- to increase employment.

The only approach that's going to save our collective * is to raise taxes across the board, from a little 1% bump for the bottom quintile on up to a big jump for the Romneys, Trumps, Cains and Buffets. I and many other Liberal posters are prepared to step up and do our part for America's recovery, but all I ever seem to hear from the conservatives is, "WAAAHH! Not ME, I pay too much ALREADY! Cut unemployment benefits, or VA hospital funds, or vet's job bills, but leave MY money ALONE!"

You snivelling hypocrites- go lower that flag you leave flying outside your house 24/7, for years, until it's just a tattered remnant. Get a putty knife (if you own one) and scrape that stupid "Power Of Pride" sticker off of your (probably imported) luxury car. Your right to claim to be a patriot has been rescinded by popular disgust.

Eight and one half days of running the government. That is what letting the tax cuts expire on those making more than $250K. Then what?

Ben,

The money for those 8½ days accounts for a 2.3% reduction in deficit spending ($900 billion over 10 years) … isn’t that a good start?

I assume you got that lie from Fox Ben. When will you republicans quit buying into Fox lies?

After listening to Fox talk about a Romney landslide and then getting your head handed to you, it looks like you learn.

That's a start but I wouldn't characterize it as good. What does a 2.3% reduction in deficit spending mean?? Doesn't it make more sense to rake in more money from the wealthy by limiting deductions at a set level far above what the middle class could reach? If not, why not?

@Mo -- your are irrelevant when you start spouting nonsense about Fox, lies and juvenile talk about having one's head handed to them. It was an election. It is now over for all but those who are afraid to move forward and try to solve problems with civility. Dennis knows it is a pretty accurate figure. I enjoy debates but not digs.

"Hi Ho, Hi Ho, it's off the cliff we go........ (whistling)"

Want to try and play tough house Republicans? Democrats have a strategy.

Ben,

Limiting the deductions (100% of deduction) still does not generate as much revenue as increasing the rate from 35% to 39.6%. Don’t forget the rate increase as proposed is ONLY on income above $250K, the tax rate on the first $250K remains unchanged.

@Dennis -- There are a number of studies -- including the bipartisan Simpson Bowles -- that show we could actually lower tax rates for all Americans if we are prepared to place meaningful limits on tax deductions, credits and exemptions. I hear the words about the first $250k remaining unchanged but please forgive me if I don't actually want to take that to the bank just yet. All I know is what I have read about increase rates vs. limit deductions and exemptions.

I said "proposed" plan for tax rates

@Dennis -- understood. But if that is not the case and those below 200-250K get hit better start composing your talking points now as to who to blame instead of calling out those who made promises.

The poll that needs to be taken is one asking those that voted for Obama do they actually believe raising taxes on the top earners will solve the nations financial crisis. My guess is that Obama supporters feel that is all that needs to be done. Obama calling this charade a solution proves he has no clue. When the country is running trillion plus annual deficits, and Obama is calling for 4.4 trillion in deficit reduction over 10 years that still leaves the nation another 6 trillion in the hole and a national debt well over 20 trillion. Obama should call his solution what it really is, just another meaningless plan that simply continues to kick the can down the road. Obviously Democrats are no more serious about actually solving the nations debt crisis then they accuse Republicans of being.

And if they don't cut spending( And they won't) it's a drop in the bucket,Obama is the one who refuses to compromise,He may have won the Election but it does not mean he has a free pass to do anything he chooses(however he has done just that for 4yrs)There is still half of America that does not agree with what he has and wants to do,he is doing the Its my way or the highway crud,If he would try compromise he may find people will feel like he is truly trying,He needs to grow up and quit being a Bully,We voted to keep Republicans in The Senate to keep them working for ALL of us,not to give Obama a exutive pen for his communist agenda,Hell even the Russians are calling Obama a Comunist.

Ster2,

They have no choice but to cut spending … either thru compromise or thru the "sequester".

Ben,

I would be fine with letting all of them expire however it is not the right thing for the economy at this time.

If we allow all of 2001 & 2003 tax rates to expire they will be reinstated for the middle class in Jan 2013.

I believe part of the compromise will be to create a new tax bracket for those above $500K and only increase the tax rate for incomes above $500K

Rick and Ster2 - apparently the two of you haven't listened at all. The President has said he is agreeable to spending cuts along with the tax increases for the wealthy. Do you not listen at all or just disregard those statements that don't support your hate?

Northstar: So my comment was correct. I told you that the GOP is WANTING to keep the current tax rates the way they are and if Obama does NOT want taxes to go up on everybody he can agree to it. Otherwise the automatic tax increases go into effect. But it is NOT the GOP blocking tax rates staying the same - it is Obama. So it is solely and entirely at the discretion of Obama whether you pay higher taxes or not - so don't blame the GOP.

But of course this president doesn't WANT the economy to recover so of course he will let the taxes increase. That is just par for the course. The last four years is the WORST recovery in United States history and all due to the failed economic policies of this incompetent president. But you guys voted for four more years of failure and you get what you voted for.

So when I asked how that whole "Hopey Changey" thing was working out for you what I meant was you reelected an incompetent president who couldn't run a lemonade stand for another four years - so you get what you voted for.

You are truly gullible ! Obama has said crap like that before, only his idea of "spending cuts" is to "cut" the amount of future planned spending increases. The only real cutting Obama will approve is GUTTING THE MILITARY !

Look for Obama to let the Bush Tax Cuts expire for everyone ! You may remember how he pushed this back until AFTER the election.

Ster: Correct. Obama won an election because the number of moochers, leeches, and parasites were promised "free stuff" and would get that "free stuff" from taking from the "rich" and giving to "them". But as Margaret Thatcher said "Socialism no longer works when you run out of other people's money".

In Economics we say "there ain't no such thing as a free lunch" meaning nothing is "free" in this world. But Obama has PROMISED free stuff. End result is he can't deliver and once the unintelligent realize that they cannot rely on government for their "free stuff" the entire system collapses. Just prepare accordingly because even many of the unintelligent are realizing that the promises of "free stuff" buy a Community Organizer in Chief cannot come to fruition.

Jim: You are right. Only GOVERNMENT can say something so incompetent and get people to agree.

Here is an analogy: Say there is a drunk that currently drinks 6 beers a day. He tells you that he plans on drinking 12 beers a day. You tell the drunk he really should reduce is drinking and he says "you are right - so instead of drinking the PLANNED 12 beers a day I will only drink 9 beers a day. SEE!! I cut 3 beers a day!!.

Wait a minute!! You WERE drinking 6 beers a day and now drinking 9 beers a day. That is not a CUT of 3 beers a day!!

But THAT is exactly what our government is doing. The are planning to REDUCE the expected INCREASES in spending then calling that a "cut". Maybe in Bizarro World that makes sense but not in real life.

But the many gullible lemmings who voted in this incompetent Community Organizer in Chief are not smart enough to even see what is going on.........

ProBusiness - even Republican leaders are saying comments like yours are just foolish and have no merit. Clearly you didn't get the memo - or are too dumb to understand!

And, the only lemming here is you! But don't worry, the folks at FOX are thrilled that there are still some as ignorant and hate-filled as you. They count on those of your ilk to help them survive.

Seeking: So you resort to name calling? Interesting......

End result is you have two choices: Either pay more income taxes next year - or not.

GOP says let's keep the tax rates the way they are so up to the Democrats to decide if they want everyone to pay more in taxes or not. You can get angry all you want. You can stomp your feet all you want. You can call people names all you want. But the end result is it is entirely up to Obama and the Democrats as to whether we all pay more in income taxes or not.

So when the automatic tax increases go up next year because Obama doesn't really care about the lower and middle classes don't get mad at the GOP. The GOP WANTED to keep the tax rates the same. But Obama hates and despises success SO much that he is willing to punish the lower and middle classes too JUST to have the opportunity to punish the successful. So THAT is what you voted for so enjoy your decreased disposable income next year and when you realize you don't have the money to buy things you want to buy your family because taxes have increased thank your Community Organizer in Chief.

Pro-Business - short memory you have. You might want to re-read your post before whining about name calling - But the many gullible lemmings who voted in this incompetent Community Organizer in Chief are not smart enough to even see what is going on.........

Might want to get that memory checked Pro!

SeekingSanity maybe you should listen for a change. Obama is touting a 4.4 trillion dollar deficit reduction plan over 10 years. That is no solution. Obama is running trillion plus annual deficits, so his plan amounts to still letting our national debt increase by over 6 trillion over those 10 years. That is no solution, and it assumes that every future Congress will adhere to his non-solution. Anything that takes 10 years to happen is just more of kicking the can down the road. Obama and the Democrats need to step up and put this country on the path to reducing our national debt which is the real fiscal crisis facing this nation. Obama is on track to add more to our national debt then every previous president combined, even with his paltry 10 year 4.4 trillion dollar deficit reduction plan. Remember SeekingSanity no Democrat controlled Congress has put forth a balanced federal budget in over 40 years, and that pretty much sums up your party's ability to solve this fiscal crisis.

Rick - your arrogance is not a good thing. Why would you EVER think YOU are the only person paying attention? Because people don't agree with you doesn't mean they aren't listening and don't understand - just that they have a different view. Grow up! Yours is not the ONLY viewpoint!

Your post is NOT what is happening - except in your narrow mind!

You are truly gullible ! Obama has said crap like that before, only his idea of "spending cuts" is to "cut" the amount of future planned spending increases.

That is how cutting spending works. Even when they balanced the budget during the Clinton administration, they did it by slowing spending growth until GDP growth overtook it. Take a day or so to do some research on the topic you are talking about. You will end up sounding much more informed if you do so.

ProBusiness

Seeking: So you resort to name calling?

Pro... It's all they've got.

They ALWAYS resort to that because they cannot hang in there when it comes to a REAL, INTELLIGENT conversation.

SO... like children they resort to name calling and finger pointing... (SAD)... when they reach that point you need to send them to their room for a 'time-out'. Eventually they come out, humbled and asking for a cookie.

;o)

Probe Business... Your 2.32 there is a real barn burner. You should entitle that "flirting with Jimmy". Pretty sure that's as far as it will ever get you.

Funny how you've latched onto the last stupid career-ending thing said by Romney on a phone call the lying jerk didn't know would become public and worked it into your new mantra...

We'll all let you know when we get our free stuff. In the meantime, try to become an American.

To those that responded to my post in 2.2...

I am not a Republican, I am an independent. In the last 4 presidential elections I've gone Rep twice and Dem twice.

I am for significant defense cuts, but I don't think defense cuts and raising the taxes on the top 2% will be nearly enough. Using Obama's estimates, the 10 year deficit for Medicare/Medicaid is over $6 Trillion - this is not sustainable and has to be addressed. I would like to see a detailed plan to handle this (and the overall deficit) situation.

From what I've read of Obama's plan, it's more gimmicks than cuts. It may be better than what Romney proposed, but it's still not detailed enough to really evaluate.

Open your mind and close your lips .... the National Debt was $10.8 trillion when Obama took office and it is over $16 trillion today ! Obama has made no serious efforts to cut federasl spending except for gutting the military. By the time Obama leaves office, our National debt under him will have more than doubled the National Debt of ALL his predecessors .... COMBINED !

Take an accounting course and educate yourself.

Ron:

The issue of Medicare and Social Security needs to be separate from that of changing the spending cuts and tax increases that the Republicans voted for and now want to change.

A simple, elegant solution to the Medicare and SS problems would be to have the taxes apply to all income, including dividends, interest, and capital gains, on all income where ever it is located.

In general, the Republicans backed themselves into a corner, truly believing they would be able to take over the entire government, end Medicare and Social Security, increase defense spending and preserve the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. They bet it all on Mitt Romney and they lost. They didn't get their breathing idiot with five digits needed to sign bills into law.

SeekingSanity: Are you a lemming? I didn't call you a lemming. I said the "lemmings" that don't know any better but did not attack you personally. Only YOU can decide if you are a lemming. Since you took it so personally I wonder what that means?

But you personally attacked me and I am trying to get you suspended for the personal attack but not having any success. But that is not a surprise. This forum LOVES to suspend Conservatives with just a remote personal attack but you said I personally was "too dumb to understand" and personally called me a lemming (I love the irony). But personal attacks are SUPPOSED to not be allowed in this forum so I will keep working to get you suspended primarily even AFTER I bring to your attention your personal attacks you don't have the decency to apologize.

That's okay, I wouldn't expect civility or maturity from many liberals and you are no exception. But I will continue to try and get you suspended due to your immature and unnecessary personal attack on me.

But, then again, when a liberal loses an argument that's all they can rely on is personal attacks - and your personal attacks were no different than what is expected when a person doesn't have a valid argument or point to make.

*shrugs*

That would be the case no matter who the officeholder from 2009-2012 was. Federal revenues dropped $500 billion during the collapse and have yet to fully recover. That would have stacked an extra $500 billion per year on the existing deficit every year no matter what. That's basically $2 trillion of your $5 trillion right there. The deficit for 2008 was $454 billion. So even if that had remained totally neutral, that's a total of $1.8 trillion. So that's $3.8 of your $5 trillion.

$800 billion was the stimulus. So that's $4.6 of your $5 trillion.

The other $400 billion was pretty much nothing more than inflationary forces at work. Ie, the deficit grew because prices rose.

So in a nutshell, the major difference between your McCain presidency and the Obama presidency was the stimulus. McCain could not have stopped $2 trillion in revenue from disappearing. He might have really 'cut' Federal spending, in which case the recession would have been much deeper and much longer and in which case, revenue would have dropped even further and almost nothing in terms of real deficit reduction would have happened.

So I suggest that while I am taking the accounting class you suggest, (over again), I might add, you wander over to the Econ department and pay attention for a change.

Seeking- here's another cold, dispassionate, totally fact-based assessment from ProFailure:"moochers, leeches, and parasites"- but, you know, it's OK for him to say stuff like that because the people on TV talk that way. Right, Pro?

ProIgnorance, your insistence on promoting failed and demonstrably unworkable policies is bad enough. Your damning any and all supportable, proven facts that don't conform to your blighted, twisted superstitions is predictable, but no less annoying for all that.

In ploughing through your verbal compost, I'm having a little trouble figuring out exactly what in the pluperfect reverberating H*** you suggest we ought to DO!

OK, you want all entitlement programs shut down- gotcha. Good idea- just have the Federal government enact the single largest debt default in the history of mankind- long as it'll save you a tax increase, so big f*****' what?

More spending cuts? Well, Rick Perry seemed to think we could get along just fine without the Departments of Energy, Commerce,and Education (hmm, wonder why?); his neighbor Ron Paul wanted to throw Transportation, Health Education & Welfare, Veterans' Affairs, Housing & Urban Development, Labor, and Agriculture onto the bonfire while we're at it; gee whillikers, NOW we've got Federal spending under control! Well done! AND it was all accomplished with ZERO additional cost to you and the other "job creators" like you!

Just one thing you might possibly want to lend some consideration to, though...

I gather, ProChaos, that you're a man of fairly modest means who feels that he's somehow been 'cheated' out of the fortune you know should have rightfully been yours, if only the damned Democrat/Communists hadn't robbed you of the fruits of your labour, so they could provide inner-city unwed mothers with luxury 4X4s and an ample supply of designer clothes and crack.

I base this judgement on having worked elbow-to-elbow with frusrated guys like you pretty much my whole life.

My question to you, then, is this: When all of your anti- government dreams come true, you'll inherit a country that is lawless, hungry or outright starving, without reliable sources of energy, a devastated transportation net, medical infrastructure just a memory- in short, it will be the '80s classic "The Road Warrior" writ large.

Will that be enough for you then, sir? Or will you still feel cheated?

Fox: Just more liberal hatred. I make a general comment about those who are not willing to work and expect government assistance. I did not direct it towards you so if you are taking that comment personally I can't help you and wonder WHY you are taking that personally. Why? Does it feel too close to home?

But don't be irresponsible and put words and comments in my mouth. I NEVER said I want all entitlement programs shut down. To say that is factually wrong and irresponsible. I NEVER said to default and to say is intentionally lying. I NEVER said saving a tax increase although a tax increase as described by Obama, and supported by Obama, is such a minor portion of the deficit it is basically irrelevant. And then you attacked me personally with some "rant" about 4x4's and unwed mothers - very mature then following it up with calling me "frustrated".

Fact of the matter is this country did just fine for 200 years and only when Conservative values where removed and "working hard" to succeed was no longer necessary did we go into the worst recovery in United States history. When you speak of "lawless" or "hungry" that was not a problem in the late 19th century and early 20th century.

At that time we had people WILLING to come to this country with nothing but the shirt on their back. Why? Opportunity. Not quite the "lawless" and "hungry" country you try to portray. These people knew that the U.S. was the BEST opportunity for those of modest means to become anything they want to be with hard work and sacrifice. And because of that entrepreneurship we had the fastest growing economy in the world. You see history has shown that the economies that grow the fastest are those that allow success and hard work.

I only want for my children the same opportunities I had. I worked 80 hour weeks working a full-time job, a part-time job, and starting my own company at the same time. I worked for over 5 years without a "vacation" or more than a day or two off at a time - and even then always thinking about the growing business. There used to be a time when a person could work in the U.S. and their potential was never limited.

But don't worry about me. I'll be okay. I am scaling back my business and building a cabin in Tennessee to "semi-retire". It's not worth it anymore. This country has lost its potential. This country will never be again what it was. But I'll be fine. I am decreasing my income because I don't want to work the many hours a week just to have my money taken from me and given to moochers, leeches, and parasites. But since I have limited expenses I can cut my income down significantly. Doesn't bother me but does bother me that I had to tell my 8 employees that as of December 31st they will no longer have a job. Scaling back means I can run my internet company by myself from a front porch in Tennessee. But the 8 employees I laid off? They will have a heck of a time finding additional work in this failed economy but that is what liberals voted for. Vote for failure then failure begets failure.

My biggest worry is not me but my children. They are quickly realizing this failed president has created such economic harm THEY will not have the same opportunity to work hard and own a company of their own. But THAT is what the people voted for so enjoy your "Hopey Changey" and remember it is "STILL about Hope - it is STILL about Change". How were you to know that meant "I HOPE I can find some loose CHANGE in the sofa - because THAT is all I have left"
.

Pro Business, Your last statement #2.48 is the biggest bunch of bull p@@pie I've read in weeks.

Soooooo, how is that whole "Hopey Changey" thing working out for you now?

It's working out Pretty Darn Good.

Wow, SeekingSanity you are just one insult after another. You also have no clue what Obama has planned, and neither do others that voted for him. He never laid out a complete agenda, he ran against Romney and policies of the past. Obama has spoken repeatedly of a 4.4 trillion dollar deficit reduction plan that takes 10 years. 4.4 trillion over 10 years doesn't even cut the Obama annual deficits in half. So enlighten us to how running up over 20 trillion in nation debt is even a concern for Obama? Obama will go down in history for having added more to our national debt then all previous presidents combined. Simply a fact, regardless of whom you choose to blame. You are big on telling people the election is over, maybe someone should tell Obama. Then perhaps he would stop the campaign rhetoric and start doing the job.

Great post Rick ! Expect to be attacked ! LOL !!

Yeah because here on the vine we don't let factless hateful diatribes go unchallenged. We serve morons their walking papers with facts.

Very nice post Jody. President Obama is dealing with a bunch of spoiled jerks who want to return to the 18th/9th Century white men only institution.

So true Jody. President Obama continues to move our Nation Forward to Greatness with common sense Progressive ideas.

Thanks, Pat, Job1. Good points, the GOPer do behave like spoiled jerks. They really would like to return us to the the 18/19th centuries, to the Constitution written by the founders who were the monied elites who wanted to form a more perfect union yet denied that more perfect union to women, blacks, and ordinary people.

Just heard Gov Bob McDonnell say the GOP needs to soften their tone--this coming from the guy who signed the mandatory, forced, vaginal probe legislation.

Obama will start garnering support from the public, and then talk about his plan to avoid the fiscal cliff.

That said, if Republicans want to be hard nosed about tax going up for the wealthy then we can go over the cliff and start discussions again. The ball is totally in the Republican's court.

Jody, Iowa-

Nice Post.

More women elected to congress than ever before, and at least two women Supreme Court Justice's on the way during the President's second term. (Possibly a third.)

I'd say the game is changing in Washington and about to get more civil.

The "good ol' boy's club" is coming to a close.

Salud

I'd say the game is changing in Washington and about to get more civil.

The "good ol' boy's club" is coming to a close.

I sure hope so Tomas. Perhaps along with being more civil, with more women it will also be less cold hearted.

Tomas, there's also this very important sea change. The Kids.

As a matter of election analysis, this is certainly noteworthy data, which helps explain why the president was able to do as well as he did.

But in the larger context, this has even greater salience. There's been ample talk of late about Republicans having a "demographics" problem -- the GOP is an overwhelmingly white party with pockets of regional appeal in a nation that's growing more racially and ethnically diverse.

But as Pew helps remind us, Republicans also have a serious generational problem that should also make the party nervous.

Reflecting on the Pew Center's report, Jon Chait explained that younger voters aren't just voting Democratic more than older generations; they're also vastly more liberal than their elders, which has the potential to force "a full-scale sea change in American politics."

http://maddowblog.msnbc.com/_news/2012/11/27/15484930-the-kids-are-alright?lite

Once again, Jody, spot on.

The elephantine party will have to take another drubbing before they realize the wisdom of which you have

spoken.

The anchor will allow itself to be lifted aboard or the rope will be cut. In either case, the ship will move forward with or without it. Dragging it along the seabed is never on the list of options.

Our economic problems didn't happen overnight. It's been happening over the past 15-20 years, but the economy was kept going by middle class Americans tapping into the equity on their homes until they were completely tapped out.

It shouldn't be all about Democrats or Republicans! It should be about doing the right thing for our country and the majority of its citizens. I consider myself an independent voter, but going back to the Reagan days and with the only exception having been Perot, I’ve always voted Republican. But all this single-minded, left versus right, ideological one dimensional bull has got to go! This is the problem with our country. It shouldn't be about Democrats or Republicans! It should be about Americans, especially our elected officials, doing the right thing for our country and its citizens.

Both parties have sold out the bulk of the American citizens, who they're supposed to represent, by allowing the "out-sourcing" floodgates to open wider and wider without taking any sensible measures to stem the tide. (Under Clinton jobs to China, Under Bush I & II influx of illegals or cheap easily abused labor into the US and jobs to Mexico/NAFTA) Our leaders are elected by the Citizens of the United States of America to represent the interests of those citizens and the country itself. They are NOT elected by the Global Market Place or foreign citizens!

We need our elected officals to Start Protecting American Jobs and do whatever it takes to bring back the jobs they let go. We need leaders who will actually stand up for the American people.

We need to bring manufacturing back to the United States of America and both parties are ignoring tariffs as a way to level the playing field, raise money and bring jobs back home. Let's guess why. Oh that's right, tariff is a dirty word. Hum, maybe it’s that our so called leaders (political leaders) are beholden to the same people who are exporting our jobs.

I guess we should keep letting Corp Boards, Wall Street, CEOs and Foreign Lobbyists promote sending US jobs to countries where they work for slave wages, no benefits, no OSHA safety standards or no real environment regulations. How's that been working for us?

The so called “Global Market Place” is not a level playing field. Companies may have made higher profits by "out sourcing", but they've been putting middle class Americans who are a good part of the world’s customer base out of work. I’m not a lefty or member of any union. I run a business that employs over 20 people and produces products that are purchased by customers that do manufacturing and packaging. I’m just an average Joe, but I've been saying this for more than 10 years now. If I can see it, so can our so called leaders (political leaders) who are beholden to the same people who are exporting our jobs.

We need to add tariffs that are proportionate to the inequities in wages and regulations in the country where the goods were produced and or where we’re importing them from. We could then use the money raised by these tariffs to help companies build state of the art manufacturing plants here in the USA, which would create more jobs here at home for US citizens, which would then in turn increase our income tax revenue.

The people with all of the excuses as to why we can’t or aren’t willing to manufacture products here in the US are the same people who have provided us with the thinking that’s gotten us into this mess in the first place.

Over the past 15-20 years, I've seen too many of our customer's close manufacturing plants here in the USA and move those plants to different countries, decimating entire areas here in OUR COUNTRY. And I'm not alone. Returning jobs to American Citizens will provide income tax revenue to OUR Government versus our government having to pay unemployment benefits to those who would be jobless instead.

Bringing manufacturing back to the US not only gives jobs to the US citizens who would be working in those manufacturing facilities, but to the people that would be working in the businesses that would spring up all around them. This should also include the safe harvesting, production and distribution of our own natural energy here in the USA, rather than paying for fuel from countries where they hate us. Let’s keep that money and those jobs here in the US.

These so-called “free trade agreements” have to go. It was obvious when they were passing these agreements as to what was going to happen and sure enough it did. Our leaders had to have known this as well when they were passing these bills. It’s just common sense. We also need to bring customer support services back to the United States of America and staff them with employees who are US Citizens.

The “Global Market Place” is not a level playing field! The whole idea of the tariffs is so we can pay our factory workers a decent wage and not be blown out by these other countries where they don’t play by the same rules.

We may have to pay a bit more for products made here in the USA by US citizens, but at least we'll still have jobs and a future for our children.

The bottom line is that “Our Government” has to protect American industry and the jobs that those industries provide. If they do that, the rest will take care of itself.

Obama is moving our nation forward what a joke. Unless you mean by forward a 20 trillion dollar national debt. With gas prices up, unemployment on the rise, and inflation knocking at the door exactly what is the Obama definition of moving forward? Oh yeah Obama wants to let the Bush tax cuts expire on the top earners so we can bring in enough revenue to run the federal government for 2 days. Or maybe we can all get behind Obama's talking point of 4.4 trillion in deficit reduction over 10 years which still allows our national debt to increase more then 6 trillion.

Lets face it the Democrats have no clue how to turn around this economy. It has been over 40 years since a Democrat controlled Congress actually put forth a balanced federal budget. Since the Democrats have controlled the House for 46 of the past 60 years and 40 of the past 60 in the Senate they have had more then ample opportunity. Nothing being bantered around by the Obama administration is anything more then smoke and mirrors. Obama won the election, and now it is time for him to get off the campaign trail and start doing the job he ignored during his first term.

History is going to write one undeniable fact about Obama, and that will be that during his two terms more was added to our national debt then all previous presidents combined. Obama has absolutely no concern for the massive debt he is overseeing, and no matter who you feel you can blame it will be his legacy.

Mark of the Beast (Notice it says it will be IN your hand or forehead not on)

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name...and his number is Six hundred & sixty-six. (Rev.13:15-18)

“Is the microchip implant hidden in the Healthcare Bill? Are newborn children starting in 2013 going to receive a microchip shortly after birth?” In the massive US HEALTHCARE BILL, which your elected representatives voted for without reading, there is a section titled: Subtitle C-11 Sec. 2521 – National Medical Device Registry which states:

“The Secretary shall establish a national medical device registry (in this subsection referred to as the ‘registry’) to facilitate analysis of post market safety and outcomes data on each device that—‘‘(A) is or has been used in or on a patient; and ‘‘(B) is a class III device; or ‘‘(ii) a class II device that is implantable.”

The language is deliberately vague, but it provides the structure for making America the first nation in the world that would require every U.S. citizen to receive an implanted radio-frequency (RFID) microchip for the purpose of controlling medical care.

666! The Mark of the Beast! Almost everybody has heard something about this prophecy which says that in the last days no one will be able to buy or sell anything unless they get the "Devil's mark".

Today we are the first generation with the technology available to fulfill such a prophecy of a "cashless" society.

At present, in this supermarket there are a number of ways I can pay for this shopping--I can use cash, or I can write a check, or pay by credit card.

...Or another way that is being promoted so much today is using a debit card. When you give your debit card to the cashier the card is run through a scanner which is electronically linked to your bank & the money is immediately taken out of your bank account and placed in the store's account.--All in a split second.

Debit cards have already been introduced in many parts of the world & are extremely popular with stores, banks & customers. So you can see we are fast on the way to eliminating cash--and there are many compelling reasons why. Cash is the very mother's milk of drug smugglers, who often deal in cash a suitcase full at a time. With no cash the sale of illegal drugs would cease. In fact to eliminate cash would eliminate almost every kind of criminal activity, from theft to terrorism, and be an instant cure-all for many of the World's most desperate social & economic ills. No wonder governments are pushing towards the cashless society with unrestrained enthusiasm. It’s all for your own good.

So what if you took the chip out of the card & placed it under the skin?

Once the chip has been implanted it can be read by an inexpensive scanner, much like the one in your local grocery store. So, you now become your own smart card!--And the very expensive problem of making sure that the owner of the card is who he says he is, has been solved.

Today the technology for just such an implant not only exists, but is being tested in pilot programs all over the world. A tiny microchip which can be read by a scanner is inserted into a spot below the animal's skin. "Infopet" in California boast the ability to keep track of 4 billion cats & dogs worldwide. This technology has proven that keeping track of large populations through implants & centralized computer data banks is completely feasible.

Evangelical Christians make excellent political pawns because they focus on secondary issues, rather than the important issues. This is because Evangelical Christianity in America today does not have a truly Biblical worldview. I truly do not want to sound unkind, but the historical reality is that Evangelical Christians have played the part of what Lenin called “useful idiots.” Obviously, this is not what God planned for His people. But, by rejecting a Biblical worldview, the Scripture, “My people perish for lack of knowledge,” is fulfilled. The majority of Evangelical Christians in America have a very superficial faith as a result of what they are being taught in many of their churches and seminaries.

Bush vs Clinton 2016 - not my cup of tea.

Nope.

I find it odd that republicans would even contemplate Jeb Bush. The GOP base may like him but I just don't think the country is ready for another BUSH brother especially after the last one. While never say never applies, I do not think Hillary Clinton will run in 2016. One fact is that President Obama has given Hillary Clinton credentials of her own, if she chooses to run, rather than simply her representing an extension of Bill Clinton or his shadow.

My first reaction to another Bush is Huuuuuh! No single group of human beings could be that stup... And then i recall Palin followed by Romney/Ryan and lose faith in an ever-shrinking 47% of mankind.

On a personal note, my first response to the term "Evangelical voter" is to immediately call for their right to be revoked for the sanctity of the absolutely necessary separation of church and state.

In other news... John Boehner met for a photo op today with the Congressional Black Caucus and had to be told to smile so they could see him.

chick - you keep throwing in those one-liners when I least expect them - so no more reading your posts while drinking coffee - whatever! Always cleaning my monitor!

More conservaspeak. Just as "liberal media bias" means "I didn't see what I wanted to see", "naked power grab" means "what? You want majority rule?"!!

Pat,

McConnell "power grab" accusation if the filibuster rule is changed is so ironic.

Lets get the Senate up and running again. The 60 vote rule to end a filibuster or even a hint of a filibuster is the number one reason nothing get done. change the rule on day one in Jan 2013.

Does not matter who has the majority in Senate, let these guys do a up or down vote on a bill. Shine the light on them and let the voters decide if their senators are worth the money we are paying them.

McConnell "power grab" accusation if the filibuster rule is changed is so ironic.

So true. McConnell had his sights on being Majority Leader of the Senate for 4 years. He blew it big time and now he's just up there making zero sense.

I so hope he goes when he's up for re-election. I can't stand him. And I'm not alone in that assessment thankfully.

I guess Reid's position (and other's) on this has "evolved" since he opposed it in the last decade.

GOP Senators Coburn and Cornyn claim any attempt by democrats to change the filibuster rules would shut down the Senate, destroy it. Odd, they would make that claim when the GOP's MISUSE of the filibuster has shut down the Senate and caused the destruction of it by creating dysfunction.

Ben, Reid and other democrats position has "evolved" because of the GOP ABUSE of the privilege to filibuster.

@Jody -- I guess there was no DEM ABUSE last decade LOL. Hypocrite comes to mind but hey it's always the other guy that causes the problems.

Ben, the filibuster has NEVER been used as much as the Republicans used it during the last 2 years.

So now the Dems want to change the rules ... the very same rules they complained about in 2005 declaring they should NOT be changed ?? Harry Reid contradicting Harry Reid is almost as good as Obama contradicting Obama !

Ben has a square flag. He's a non-conformist. Ben, please elaborate on the Dem Vs Rep use of the fake filibuster... You talk as if it's an even-steven usage. Go ahead, look it up and explain it to us afterward. Please provide the reasons behind the rampant application of it by the turds you cuddle. I'm sure it will be an enlightening exercise and prove to everyone here that America is not being held hostage by said turds as well as totally validate your calling someone else a hypocrit. I have faith in you.

Uh Guys... Harry Reid is not trying to get rid of the filibuster... just make it so that the Senator has to actually Filibuster and not do it by proxy..

That is the same thing Harry Reid complained about in 2005.

Kurt, have you any advice for Mitch McConnell?

Same as with ALL in Congress and the President, Until we get our Fiscal House in Order, we can NOT afford another massive Government Program such as ObamaUnCare. At the very least that it be delayed by being defunded or not implimated. Why would ANY Institution, US Gov or otherwise, that is ALREADY over $16 Trillion in National Debt add yet more spending to go Deeper in Debt? It is fiscal insanity.

duplicate post

Kurt you need to wean yourself off Fox for a while. Obamacare goes into effect next year, it's law get over it. Besides it's obvious you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Kurt, the tax cuts for the wealthy have to go. As far as ObamaCare, it is helping a great many people who need it and will get better as more of it goes into effect.

We need to wind down the war in Afghanistan and cut that budget.

Pat, what you mentioned, they are NOT new items ADDED to the budget. No matter what you think of ObamaCare, any rational person knows now is NOT the time to add many billions to the Federal Expenses on a NEW untested program. For the Sake of Compromise, No NEW expenses for Fiscal Year 2013. Pat, I am sure you are more wealthy that many people, you need to pay 40% in taxes to set an example for the rest of us. Oh, does it only apply to the other person?

Even Karl Rove and Mitt Romney are over the shock of defeat. Why not you?

Kurt, It applies to those making over $250000 a year and doesn't effect the first $250,000. So what that means is those making a half a mill will pay $7500 more in taxes. They might have to give up that trip to Paris for breakfast but other then that the money will not be missed, by those that have so much. You need some stiff Limburger to go with that whine.

John, so Higher taxes "Only" apply to those making above 250K, what fantasy world are you living in??? The Individual Mandate Tax (no longer concealed as a penalty). This provision will require a couple to pay the higher of a base tax of $1,360 per year, or 2.5% of adjusted growth income starting with lower base tax and rising to this level by 2016. Individuals will see a base tax of $695 and families a base tax of $2,085 per year by 2016.

The Flexible Spending Account (FSA) Cap, which will begin in 2013, is perhaps the most hurtful provision to the middle class. This part of the law imposes a cap of $2,500 per year (which is now unlimited) on the amount of pre-tax dollars that could be deposited into these accounts. Why is this particularly hurtful to the middle class? It is because funds in these accounts may be used to pay for special needs education for special needs children in the United States. Tuition rates for this type of special education can easily exceed $14,000 per year and the use of pre-tax dollars has helped many middle income families.

The Medical Itemized Deduction Hurdle which is currently 7.5% of adjusted gross income. This is the hurdle that must be met before medical expenses over that hurdle can be taken as a deduction on federal income taxes. Obamacare raises this hurdle to 10% of adjusted gross income beginning in 2013. Consider the middle class family with $80,000 of adjusted gross income and $8,000 of medical expenses. Currently, that family can get some relief from being able to take a $2,000 deduction (7.5% X $80,000 = $6,000; $8,000 –$6,000 = $2,000). An increase to 10% would eliminate the deduction in this example and if that family was paying a 25% federal tax rate, the real cost of that lost deduction would be $500.

The Health Savings Account (HSA) Withdrawal Tax Hike. This provision increases the additional tax on non-medical early withdrawals from an HSA from 10% currently to 20% beginning in 2013. This provision actually sets these accounts apart from Investment Retirement Accounts (IRAs) and other tax advantaged accounts, all of which remain with a 10% early withdrawal tax.

Another new tax that directly impacts the middle class, along with all citizens, is the Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans or the “Cadillac” Health Insurance Plan Tax. These are plans that provide extensive coverage and that are generally fully paid for, or largely paid for, by employers. This provision imposes a 40% excise tax on the employer-paid premium on taxpayers who are covered by such plans, beginning in 2018. The reason it begins in 2018 is because most unionized workers are covered by plans that fall under this definition and a deferral was made to spare union members from this tax for at least a period of time.

Why are so many so naive that new taxes "only" apply to those making over 250K? They are naive or galliuble at best.

Kurt, keep your B.S. to yourself, you are going to embarrass yourself beyond repair. The fact is we are talking about the Bush tax cuts for the very wealthy. Or we are talking about the Bush tax cuts for everybody. Obama is proposing just that. Nothing more and fox is not a reliable source. We are not talking about Obama cares, which by the way becomes revenue neutral when fully implemented. I am so sorry you are so delusional that you cannot separate fact from fiction.

John, sorry that you think the facts are "B.S.", So which of the new taxes mentioned in 6.9 is B.S.? Since you did not counterstate any of them, it is easier for you to call others "B.S." than to defend against the facts?

Yet another new tax, the Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers that begins in 2013, places a 2.3% excise tax on all items retailing for more than $100. This provision will not only drive up the cost of various medical devices ranging from mobility assistance devices to personal testing supplies, but will also impact an industry that employs 360,000 people in 6,000 plants across our country. This tax, while not a direct tax, would have significant negative impact on the middle class.

Do you want to take on the NEW Surtax on Invesment Income for households earning over $250K, well, if you think it "only" affects those making over 250K, you are in for a surprise!!! The Surtax on Investment Income for households earning $250,000 and more, beginning in 2013, will raise the Capital Gains Tax from 15% to 23.8% on investment income for these households and will raise Taxes on Dividends from 15% to 43.4% for the same households. Aside from the impact on retired citizens dependent on dividends, this provision will pull income from the private economy. In addition, the tax rate on Other Investment Income earned by Subchapter S Corporation (which many small business are organized as, allowing the owners to claim all business income as personal income) will rise from 35% to 43.4%. This part of the provision would place additional pressure on small businesses resulting in more layoffs and less hiring, impacting all American workers.

The bottom line is Obama Care is here to stay and will not be on the table. Obama Care is NOT a Government take over of Health Care. Second the top percent will pay their fair share of 39%.

We have to move Forward and stop believing these right wing (Fox & Rush) brain washing lies.

Also, we must remember that a large part of the 16 Trillion debt is due to the republicans and W. Bush, who skipped our on the bar tab and left it to President Obama.

Yep, shows how Obstructionists and unreasonable Obama is on insisting of added many billions more to the budget on a new and untested Government Run Program. If we are serious about sound fiscal policy, Obama Care would be front and center "on the table". No matter what one thinks of ObamaCare, for the sake of fiscal Sanity on a pending Fiscal Cliff, we can NOT afford another new program when we are already over $16 Trillion in Debt. Job1, going "forward" to $20 Billion or more in National Debt is not believing in a certain or blaming bird parts but rather avoiding becoming a Greece. Anyone who truly cares in the future of our country knows now is NOT the time to add NEW MANDATED Government programs that cost an extra many billions of $ , no matter what one thinks of that new program. Job1, blaming others is the past NOT the Solution but rather making sure we have sound fiscal policy NOW.

What happens when 39% isn't enough??? Does any one think it will end there??? Kurt posts facts but they are called bull. Besides is $250k the same buying power for a family of four in NYC as for a family of four in small town Mississippi? Is that balanced for them?

Kurt and Ben just keep beating that same dead horse. Note to Kurt and Ben, he's dead.

39.6% would be the top tax bracket but don't forget, that even where it stands now at 35%, the rich like Mitt Romney paid less than 15% actual tax rate but we don't know that for certain because Romney never released his tax returns. So it if the top brackets returns to 39.6%, Romney might pay an actual tax rate of 19.6%. Some of the richest people paid ZERO taxes or close to it right along with those 47% of the working poor, seniors, veterans that Romney ranted about in the video.

Yep, what I can't understand is that Kurt rails on and on and on--without mentioning the "Cadillac" health care plans enjoyed by BOTH parties in Congress, and which Republicans in or out of Congress seem to have no problem with. Not to mention that these same Congressional Republicans want to cut government spending--unless it applies to their own annual pay increases.

Kurt--save your blathering for those who care to hear it. No one here does. And most of what you say is pure bulls**t.

Nope, MO, that $16 Trillion National Debt is alive and growing from the "FORWARD!" of Obamanomics of 4 annual "budget' Deficits in a row (likely will be 8 of them) of OVER $1 Trillion. Going "FORWARD!" toward Socialism and living off the Chinese is NOT sound Fiscal Policy. MO, it is time to wake up to the reality of the pending Financial collapse unless serious budget restraint is applied. Afterall, we do not want to be "dead" broke as a country. So, MO, stop riding that "dead" horse known as the National Debt that the rational people in this country are trying to "beat" down.

LOL, John, I DID MENTION the "Cadillac" health care plans in 6.9. Instead of calling each other BS, actually try reading some time. I will not lower myself with playing the "BS" card since I have the facts on my side. Just because I stated the facts so no reason for you to resort to the "BS" Card.

Was government run health care the biggest lie of 2010 or 2011?

Mo, The issue is not dead ... Kurt is totally on target with the fiscal realities of Obamacare costs and you libs will not pull your heads out long enough to look at it. Kurt is also correct in talking about the tax increases ALREADY BUILT INTO OBAMACARE which raise taxes in many different ways, but mostly designed to take away medical deductions.

Obamacare adds taxes of 3.8% of "investment income" for those with higher incomes above $200k/$250k.

Obamacare adds taxes of .9% of "earned income" for those with higher incomes above $200k/$250k.

ADVICE TO LIBERALS: "You'll have to read the bill to see what's in it"

@Jody -- You know that Mitt Romney's tax rate as well as Warren Buffet's is based on capital gains not income. You sort of answer my question as to what happens when 39.6% isn't enough since the real wealthy does not have "income." You come after their capital gains now don't you. Where will it end?

@Mo -- go back in your cave.

Kurt's comments -#6.9

The Health Savings
Account (HSA) Withdrawal Tax Hike. This provision increases the additional tax
on non-medical early withdrawals from an HSA from 10% currently to 20%
beginning in 2013. This provision actually sets these accounts apart from
Investment Retirement Accounts (IRAs) and other tax advantaged accounts, all of
which remain with a 10% early withdrawal tax.

The Health Savings Account is a program offered by Employers – its only purpose was
to take a certain percentage of an employee’s paycheck before taxes (upto a
certain amount annually) and put it into a Health Savings Account to be used ONLY
for health expenses! Any remaining money not touched for MEDICAL EXPENSES could
only be withdrawn upon retirement with no penalties…this has not changed since
the inception of the HSA! Your complaint has to do with the penalty amount for withdrawing
money for NON-MEDICAL expenses before retirement age?! Completely against what
an HAS is for…and irrelevant

Jim, you are now labeled as "B.S." by the Politcial Correct Crowd of Taxaholics and Spendaholics because you are guilty of stating the facts. They just hate when the facts are stated as you just did, well done.

Triliian, you make a point on a REASON for HSA withdraw, read again, I was responding on the claim that new taxes "ONLY" applied to those making over $250K NOT on the REASONs for withdraws. Many people making UNDER 250K will be making HSA withdrawals NO Matter the reason. So it is a NEW tax hike on those making under 250K. Just the facts.

I DID MENTION the "Cadillac" health care plans in 6.9

Oh, I see. I was referring specifically and only to Congress' health care plan. I seriously doubt their health care plan will be affected.

Obamacare adds taxes of 3.8% of "investment income" for those with higher incomes above $200k/$250k.

Obamacare adds taxes of .9% of "earned income" for those with higher incomes above $200k/$250k.

So what's wrong with that, Mr. CPA?

No, JIMS ... it was not a lie ! Pull your head out, read the bill (it's only about 2,700+ pages), then read the regs (another 4,500 pages and growing) then count the additional gestapo agents .... er, I mean IRS agents needed to enforce the rules (about 1,600 I hear) and count all the massive new federal agencies, bureaus, boards, exchanges, czars and commissions needed .... JUST TO ADMINISTER THIS CLU$TERF_CK legislation (last I heard about 140) .... and try to convince us it is not a takeover !!!! You are truly naive !!!!!!!!!!!!

Kurt, I am a CPA and much of what you are saying here is very similar to what I have been saying for quite some time. Many of these libs posting here have NO CONCEPT that Obamacare has already set in motion HIGHER TAXES on the wealthy. For me, the annual amount I put into a medical reimbursement plan is already being reduced for 2013 due to the new limitation MANDATED, meaning I get to pay higher taxes even though I am nowhere near the $250k amount Obama invokes.

You will also find that many here will blather on about "tax loopholes" ... yet virtually no one can give a clear cut specific example.

Jack, the President will NOT mandate his "heathcare" ponzi scheme against Congress and certain Unions. After all, some Obama's Henchmen are in Congress and certain Unions. The best soluction to "Obamacare" is a complete waiver on the ENTIRE country and NOT just waivers to institutions that contain Obama's Henchmen.

Jim, I am NO CPA. As YOU stated, we need not to be CPAs to know that we can not spend and tax around way into prosperity, any rational person, CPA or not, would realize this. You being a CPA adds expert support. If you people were as rational as you, we are be in a far better fiscal shape in this country.

@JAck in Portsmouth #6.24, What's wrong with that genius ? Obama has been SELLING this bull$hit to the gullible Americans about the "wealthy" not paying their fair share and his desire to end the "Bush Tax Cuts" on the wealthy. He railed against the "millionaires and billionaires" not paying their fair share .... when, in fact his proposed tax increase start at $200k for singles/$250k for marrieds. In other words, Obama's bull$hit rhetoric and his numbers DO NOT MATCH !

Then, he conveniently omits telling the American People that he has ALREADY raised taxes through Obamacare. So, if Obama gets his way, the top 1% ....oops, I forgot, he expanded it to 2% after the elections and sitting down with the unions .... will now be several percentage points HIGHER than under the Clinton era years !

Still, Bam-Bam refuses to cut spending except where it involves GUTTING THE MILITARY !

Where are the BUDGETS Barry ? Show me the BUDGETS ... not "proposals", actual BUDGETS !

Jack, the President will NOT mandate his "heathcare" ponzi scheme against Congress

As though he wrote the bill, and not Congress. Right.

The best soluction to "Obamacare" is a complete waiver on the ENTIRE country and NOT just waivers to institutions that contain Obama's Henchmen.

Well, on that point you are right. What we need is a single payer system.

Still, Bam-Bam refuses to cut spending except where it involves GUTTING THE MILITARY !

As a veteran who fought in a war, I am all for cutting the Defense Department's budget in half--not next year, or within the next couple of years, but bit-by-bit over the next decade.

no they won't be making frivolous withdraws...I never did

when I had my HSA I used it only for Medical expenses...with the intention of additional retirement funds for the future, when my employer no longer used HSA, I used the last of it for medical expenses...

so again, what your arguement is for?

A. penalties on early withdraw for non-medical expenses

B. Why you think Obamacare should be gutted?!?!? (according to you- for supposed tax increase-not the penalty increase for non-med expense as it reads)

Jack, do not assume you are the only Veteran here, before we start cutting the military or anything else that you agree with nor not agree with. The obvious 1st thing that needs to be cut or rather eliminated is a NEW Government Program, the biggest by far... ObamaCare. Obama is such an obstructionist and being unrational to the American Citizens in not even considering putting ObamaCare on the table in the face of our pending Fiscal Cliff. Obama as a Spendaholic and Taxaholic who has not to taking the 1st step on his addiction, admitting that he is a taxaholic and Spendaholic

Trilli, increased HSA penalty withdraw from 10% to 20% (thankfully not yet on Retirement accounts) on TOP of your Ordinary Income Tax is a VERY regessive tax on all, no matter if one makes over or UNDER 250K. Again, my point of this was showing of MANY examples of tax increases against those making less than 250K against the claims of new taxes only applying against those making over 250K. Of course, just taking those making over 250k in which most of the people who ACTUALLY hire are in that category lowers the average income on the rest of us due to less jobs.

Guys - just let Kurt and jim feed off each other. They are both so full of hate and dishonesty that no amount of facts will convince them because the truth is NOT what they are after. They want everyone to join them in their irrational hatred of the President and to totally disregard facts and the truth.

your argument is irrelevant...HSA is for one purpose only, which is explained if a person chooses to participate in an HSA...the tax is a penalty for withdrawing money for NON-MEDICAL EXPENSE before retirement age, end of story.

LOL, Seeking, here is another deck of "hate" cards for you as you seem to resort to playing the "hate card" often. If you disagree, it is ok, just say which of my facts you happen to disagree with or with Jim's facts. Playing the "hate card" just because you disagree with their comments does not resolve anything. Instead of playing "hate cards", Seeking, actually try to be part of the solution in resolving our fiscal crises.

Tri, End of story, so then why not tax at 100% if not used for medical expenses? Tri, it is people like you who have no compassion for the middle and working class. Get a clue, things happen in people's financial lifes needing to get access to their assets. Only a Taxaholic with no compassion was add a 20% penalty ON TOP on their oridinary income tax rate for a person in getting their OWN money. Better yet, Trillian, how about a 20% against Obama's income when he takes out our hardearned money and uses for things we do not want? If you are going tax 20% ABOVE their ordinary income tax rate against people taking their OWN money, why not tax a Taxaholice 20% ABOVE their ordinary income tax rate when the take from other people's money.

you are right SeekingSanity...moving on

Kurt - all you've done is post ignorant posts with nonsense. They are clearly based on nothing but hate of this President - there is no FACT to anything you've posted so, yes, you only post hate-filled comments because you have nothing else. That must be tiring for you.

I am working every day and I will pay higher taxes if necessary to help the country. I understand that is the way this works. When fewer people are working because of lack of jobs (now where are those jobs the GOP pomised in 2010?) we have to pick up the slack. It means cuts and added revenue. See I actually understand and plan to do what we have to to fix the problem instead of whining and digging in like Republicans. You're not part of the solution - YOU ARE THE PROBLEM!

Now, go back to whining! It's all you've got - you clearly have no ideas!

SeekingSanity, sorry that you think the facts as "hate", no wonder you can not be a part of the solution to our fiscal crisis, anything not 100% your way, you play the hate card. To your shock, there are some of us tyring to get out of our fiscal mess only to be obstructed by people like you restorting to the hate card over geninune debate. So, SeekingSanity, instead of just talking the talk, go pay your "higher taxes" that you say you WILL pay. Many of the rest of us realize it is NOT a revenue problem but a spending problem.

In the meantime, I will not lower myself to your level resorting to the hate card when I happen to disagree with someone.

no, I do have something to say to Kurt'scomments

Tri, End of story, so then why not tax at 100% if not
used for medical expenses? Tri, it is people like you who have no compassion
for the middle and working class. Get a clue, things happen in people's
financial lifes needing to get access to their assets. Only a Taxaholic with no
compassion was add a 20% penalty ON TOP on their oridinary income tax rate for
a person in getting their OWN money. Better yet, Trillian, how about a 20%
against Obama's income when he takes out our hardearned money and uses for
things we do not want? If you are going tax 20% ABOVE their ordinary income tax
rate against people taking their OWN money, why not tax a Taxaholice 20% ABOVE
their ordinary income tax rate when the take from other people's money.

That’s funny coming from a member of the “personal responsibility” party…

As for the HSA, it’s not I need that HSA money for everything else, it's:

Oh, I at least have money for medicine, toothpaste/toothbrush, mouthwash, band aids, antacid, aspirin, contact items, dentist care, “I get to eat instead of using last of money for co-pay because I need to see a doctor ‘cause I’m sick”, etc.

So now it’s, I DON’T have to spend my real money on medical, I can use my real money for everything else.

Oh, my mother in law passed away a year or two back. I did have to take money out of my IRA account to cover my husband and my share of the funeral costs, since we had no other money, we bit the bullet and took the penalty at tax time…

It’s called making an informed decision and taking personal responsibility for our actions!

But then you don’t really care about that, you just want to use and reuse a talking point to blow smoke up low informed voters a$$#$.

Did you ever consider that your "Me, Myself, and I" attitude as "supposed" Americans is precisely why you feel so alone and shout at strangers?

Further, has it ever occurred to you that you must first know JACK about how our woefully inadequate and low-ranked health care system works before you could possibly have JACK to say about repairs being made to it?

Snivelers.

The bottom line, is Obama Care is not going away. So, get used to this FACT. The President won and the republicans in Congress need to work with him.

Remember, Obama Care is here to stay. Period and Done.

Kurt,

Jack, do not assume you are the only Veteran here . . . .

That has to be just about the most absurd comment I've read on this vine in awhile. Where the hell does it indicate that I assumed that?

The obvious 1st thing that needs to be cut or rather eliminated is a NEW Government Program, the biggest by far . . . .

Another absurd comment. Obvious to whom? Sean Hannity? Rush? Which of your heroes are you quoting today?

Many of the rest of us realize it is NOT a revenue problem but a spending problem.

"Many of the rest of us . . ." Ahh, yes. Meanwhile, most intelligent people--including virtually any economist of repute--believes that it's both a revenue and a spending problem. But of course Kurt, in his infinite wisdom, doesn't see it that way.

You're just another tool of the Right. You don't think; you just regurgitate whatever you hear on Fox.

Jack, your got red handed in your lie, you claim I just get my info from Fox which is VERY strange since I am HERE at NBC LOL. Jack, I do feel sorry for you not realizing (actually not willing to admit) that we have a spending problem NOT a Revenue problem. Just check US History, we have had MORE balanced budgets WITHOUT The income tax than with the income tax. So to play your game, there is a world out there BEYOND NBC as a news source. Get the facts, rather than just what NBC tells you. Of course, you will rightly reply that you dont ONLY get your news from NBC, just sarcasm that I get my news from Fox when I am HERE at NBC.

Jack, your got red handed in your lie, you claim I just get my info from Fox which is VERY strange since I am HERE at NBC

This is precisely what I mean by your careless use of language. You say that I lied when I said you get your information from Fox. There is an enormous difference between a lie and an accusation. The former cannot be true if the person making a statement doesn't know for absolute sure that what he/she is saying is the truth. Since I was making an accusation without knowing whether it was true, it is impossible for it to be a lie. Your remarks clearly demonstrate a continuing stupidity.

BTW, in your first sentence it's not "your" but "you".

If you work at NBC--which I seriously doubt--you're most likely a security guard at the desk near the bank of elevators, a wannabe who is jealous of the people upstairs who do the heavy lifting.

Lazy? Who? Name names.

And begin with the GOP Senate and House.

You need to get over your hate Fed Up it's consuming you.

What percent of these 50% your mentioned as lazy and stupid are republicans. Now, think this through.

Job1 - Oh, I've got this one! 47% of those larzy and stupid are Republicans! Next question?

Wow,reading the Bully remarks from the leftist here sounds like what my children had and have to endure at school from many of their schoolmates,My kids get called names,told they are stupid ect ect..anytime they have a faux votes in their classes with Obama and anyone he ran against or a left agenda,when they find out my kids do not have the same opinions,It really shows how These kids have been brainwashed and taught intolerance,the difference is I give my children both sides of the story and they should respect others thoughts,and you can have a conversation with them and learn from what they say and vice/versa but they tell me they cannot even talk to the little Democrats/socialists because they usually know nothing about why they feel as they do,just that anyone who has different thoughts are racisist,Hateful,selfish,stupid,want people to die,religious nuts ect,
I'm wondering when our thoughts and beliefs will be mandated by this growing trend of non thinkers,these same kids that are taught that nobody should lose a game and the entitlement mentality,and spend spend all you want,if you run out someone will give you more,we are crippling our kids,Don't even get me started on the Collage indoctrinating.
Robbing Peter to Pay Paul never works out,No taxes should go up,get rid of the loopholes for the super rich not 250k,who the Hell thinks that's rich? It's a comfortable living in this day and you can bet they earned every penny,and started at the bottom somewhere,do we really want to encourage people to not work for over 250k? When the super rich die off who will replace them when you take away the incentive ? Who will want to bother with collage,or inventing products that could make them super rich?Who will start Company's? And then were back to where will the jobs come from?

IN 2020 Obama pushed for and got the Bush tax cuts to the rich extended, then got on national TV and told the nation that he wanted to pay higher taxes.

If he wanted to pay higher taxes, why did he champion the Bush tax cuts to the rich and get them extended in 2010? He could have let them expire and thus would have been paying the higher taxes he claimed he wanted to pay.

Taxing the rich is political rhetoric because Party service, Self service always comes first to the millionaires in congress who set the tax rates. Obama is the proof of this by his actions telling the real story.

what,

He agreed to extend the tax cuts to get an agreement to extend other benefits like unemployment benefits. It was a package of deals where extending the tax cuts was the most notable.

However since then Republicans have reduced benefits so now they have little to deal with especially since the economy has started its recovery.

People like What Happened never cease to amaze me. They latch on to the talking points fed them without ever looking at the facts. The Bush tax cuts were extended because REPUBLICANS held 98% of Americans hostage in 2010 while economic recovery was still fragile at best; they were extended because the GOP threatened to do nothing else during the rest of the year except protect the rich. President Obama said then that it was a one-time deal; he meant it. As a result of President Obama's compromise, the 2010 lame duck session was the most productive in modern times.

You guys completely missed my point. The stock market is almost back to it's highest points on record, and yet it has done little to spur employment, nor have these gains been passed down to the employees of these corporations in pay raises and increased (or any at all) benefits. This is the single greatest indicator that Wall Street no longer operates with the rest of the economy, but is a bubble in and of itself in which diseased, greedy gambling addicts trade on minute-to-minute trend lines with the nation's retirement money.

Capital gains taxes MUST be raised and this money MUST be spent in repairing our addled infrastructure if this country is going to survive.

Alan, stop it, nasty name characterizations of the First Lady is unnecessary and unwarranted. The First Family pay all of their personal expenses, including food. the Taxpayer does not pay for personal necessities, clothing, vacations, educational etc. Fact.

Maybe you should go after Bush and his extensive renovations for the weed infested ranch in Crawford, or the 77 times he flew to "The Ranch" on the taxpayer dime.

Just a dumb a$$ copy cat statement of Rush Limpball's.

She pays for 3 planes to take her and all the support people with her? I think not...

Bad, prove your assertion of 3 planes and support staff for those supposed 3 planes, and are used for personal reasons. If the First Lady is going about administration business then those 3 (?) planes are warranted.

It's funny that some folks bitch and moan if Michelle Obama travels on vacation. Did we hear this same bitching when Nancy Reagan, Barbara Bush, and Laura Bush traveled on a vacation.

Of course these three first ladies still have a staff and Secret Service Protection when they travel.

However, if you read Laura Bush's latest book, she mentioned that as First Lady you do pay for your own food and board when you go on vacation.

But of course the Obama family dog "Bo" must fly separately... got his own plane.

The ignorance of the posts of Alan, bagdadjoe and jim is astounding - especially since they have all been debunked over and over again.

All Presidents pay for their own personal expenses - food, clothes, entertaining (except when it is done for the country such as heads of state), travel, vacations. President Obama and his family have spent no more - actually less than - the Bush's when they were the First Family. So far, the Obama's have taken fewer vacations than the Bush family during the same time.

The number of staff for each family is the same.

Your continued hatred of this family shows your lack of reason and frankly a complete lack of integrity as well as intelligence. You have no real arguments but fall back on falacy and outright lies. And, you call yourselves adults?

Did you forget your meds this morning SS ? All you have done is your usual personal attacks on other posters, while presenting ZERO ... in supportable facts or statements. But then again, that is your usual attack mode.... pouring out your venom on others, while declaring them to be haters, liars, ignorant or whatever other trash you can spew !

If a rattlesnake were to bite you, who would die first ?

The topic is Obama and the impending finacial cliff of higher taxes we face. My bet is Obama will INTENTIONALLY let the tax cuts expire for EVEYONE ..... and then many of those who voted for him will feel like fools, while self-proclaimed geniuses like yourself will again try to blame it on the Republicans !

Remember, two-thirds of Republicans in the House were elected by 60% or more of the vote .... a MANDATE to stop Obama's fiscal insanity !

little jim - might want to read your own posts then actually read mine. But that doesn't fit your agenda, does it? Keep it up little boy! EVERYONE has your number!

Oh Speeking Insanity, as many times as you have been slapped down for your vile, negative, hate-filled personal attacks on others ... I suppose I should feel "honored" that you finally took time to reply.

Why, I even noticed that you were thanking Kaybeetoys for coming to your rescue when you screwed up the other day .... you see, attackers like yourself who never bring substance to the table will invariably expose themselves. Then EVERYONE has "YOUR NUMBER" and you have to have someone to jump in and protect you from yourself.

It's too bad that Obama considers the "Fiscal Cliff" to be "a game". It is funny, however, how many liberal fools have actually "bought into" his game. When Obama INTENTIONALLY allows the Bush Tax Cuts to expire .... only fools will blame it on Republicans. The Republican led House ALREADY passed a measure BEFORE the elections to extend the tax cuts.

Look, keeping Americans informed as what they are doing in government is part of the presidents job. Flying around is just a tool. My tax dollars are better spent doing that then two irresponsible wars and not paying for them. So really, your boy lost and mine won, therefore STFU if you have nothing to say.

He does not need to be out campaigning while we're on fire,He can use his mass media to smooch azz,maybe just maybe he should stay home and take care of business.And all the Obama supporters need to lay off with the BS we obviously didn't stand in the rose colored glasses line,we are not better off than we were 4 yrs ago,quite the opposite,we have staggering debt,job loss,our President and his administration has lied,deflected,blamed,ignored the other half of America completely( ocare,spending bills)We are tired of it,had somebody won that knew what they were doing (from whatever party)we wouldn't be here bitc**ing,after all you did the same with both the Bushes and you still do,We have the right to express our displeasure just as you did.

John, we already heard all of the recycled platitudes and rhetoric for past two years while Barry was campaigning. He hates corporations and rich people. Those that are listening get it already. Arguing that he has to keep the American people informed about his intent to redistribute wealth is asinine. We already know that's what he wants to do. He could have just as easily done it with a press conference costing virtually no money.

Whether the guy I voted for lost or not, I've got plenty to say. I voted and therefore have a right to bitch if I please, so you can sit and rotate. I would guess you would rather the opposition was silenced like in some places like Iran, but it doesn't work like that here.

He is always off campaigning on our airplane. When does he stop to lead? Oh wait, forgot, he doesn't and that is good.

FreeThinker - Absolutely! I try my best to buy American and I make every effort to support small, local businesses. It's the smart move for everyone to help the country - and the economy!

What kind of car do you drive ?

Crickets from SS ... does that mean she drives a "foreign car" while touting "Buy American" ?? LOL !

What happened is you lost.

NO J. Willard Marriott, we all lost. With the number of Obama's administration abandoning Obama, you still don't realize that we have all lost with the reelection of Obama and his Bush economics. People don't abandon successful leadership.

Your going to cry like a baby when your standard of living tanks under Obama. You don't even realize that it has already begun, but your going to find out.

Your going to cry like a baby when your standard of living tanks under Obama

Actually, it tanked under W.Bush and is much better for me under President Obama. I'm glad I'm not one of these folks that roots for our Nation to fail, just to get back at a President.

What, I seem to remember some of Bush's people fleeing from his administration: Powell, Ashcroft, Rove, Alberto Gonzalez, Scooter went to the slammer, Delay resigned, Cunningham is enjoying the comforts of a Federal Lockup.

Hillary only signed on for one term, as did several other admin. officials, every administration has a turn over during its second term.

Job1

What you are experiencing is the illusion that your standard of living has gotten better that adding debt creates. It's only an illusion because once you start paying for that debt, your standard of living is going to tank. That's the reality of debt that Obama explained in his speech on the perils of raising the debt limits.

Obama added over $6 trillion to the National Debt in less that 4 years. Obama's claims that the interest we pay on this debt is a hidden tax that prevents our economy from growing. That's a reality you Obama supporters refuse to acknowledge, but you will one day. And when that day comes, you will be crying like a baby just like you cried over Bush.

After all, Obama did hire Bush's economic adviser Bernake and stayed the Bush economic policies that created a debt crisis which made our Government unstable. Duh!

Skyparrot

People abandoned Bush because he lacked leadership skills that made him an effective leader. People are abandoning Obama for the same reason.

Abandoning Obama are we? One word for ya - SCOREBOARD!!!!!!!!!

If our country goes bankrupt under Obama, only "fools" will give a damn about the "score". Everything comes into perspective when financial chaos ensues. Obama is going in that direction.

Contrary to the b@llsh!t the wingnuts are feeding you (and you are apparently consuming the way Kobayashi wolfs down hotdogs), Obama is not going in the direction of financial chaos. So, that's an awfully big "if"! If a frog had wings, he wouldn't whomp his @$$ when he jumped!

Our country is $16 trillion+ in debt. When has Obama seen to it that a BUDGET gets passed ?

Is that beyond his leadership skills ? He "got" Obamacare passed... why is there NO BUDGET ??

You Obama supporters live in a fantasy world. 2009 & 2010 Obama had democratic control of congress and never even bother to propose his tax reform to Congress when he could have gotten it passed. Then in 2010 he pushed for and got the Bush tax cuts to the rich extended that put money in his pockets.

Congress owes the Social Security trust fund over $108 billion. With all the trillions Obama is borrowing and all the billions Obama is spending on foreign aid, why didn't he take the $108 billion and return it to SS if he's so concerned about the Seniors in this country. It's pocket change to the trillions he's borrowing.

But when reality punches you in the face and it will, you will be crying like a baby and looking for some way to blame anyone but Obama for the debt crisis he created following The Bush economic policies.

They will blame the Republicans and Bush duh that's what it says in their playbook

Repeat yourself much?

So Auntie Facist, exactly how much MORE Revenue is needed to be taken from YOU, yes YOU, to "solve" our Fiscal Crisis? Oh, it is always that we should take more revenue from the other "person". Wake Up, Auntie Fascist, we are running out of OTHER people's money, the era of your handouts off of other people's revenue are coming to an end.

Cheddar, face it we have a spending and revenue problem both need to be addressed. Corporate and the Rich welfare needs to stop.

Something very wrong about paying more in Payroll Taxes on Earned Income, percentage wise, than a Romney paying on his Unearned Income. Raise the capital gains to 17-18%, that will help.

Kurt, don't tell me to wake up, I AM awake, you impudent fool!! I could temporarily do another $500 -1,000 in taxes to pay down debt. Maybe over five years. Don't give me this OTHER people excrement! We ARE the people! Each and every citizen in this country! Neither you nor Mitt seem to get this!

We don't want mine and Auntie Facist's money, we're coming after your's Kurt.

MO, LOL, I agree, you ARE correct, people like you love to go after other people's money for your own wasteful spending. Thanks for admitting it. The problem with Obamanmics is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

Well Auntie Fascist, write the checks,nobody's stopping you,see I can't afford that,I've givin all I can and then they take more one way or another,I've been unemployed at my Awesome Union job that still requires me to pay them whether I work or not,If all those Obama supporters would just put their money where their mouth is maybe we can get that debt paid down,after all Obama Holly weird supporters should be able to put a huge dent by giving all but $249k a year to the Government they voted in to Office,most make at least a few $Mil a year We all know Madonna ,Sean Penn,Jay-Z,Beyonce,Oprah,Eva Longoria, ect make Wayyyy more than that, lets Ask them shut up or put up :)

...still waiting for Auntie Fascist to write her check to the Government above and beyond the current tax rates. Come on, Auntie Fascist, prove you are not a hypocrite, write that check now to the Feds an amount well beyond your current tax rate. ..... still waiting

Yeah. Hold your breath. Hold it, hold it, hold it............

Oops ! Apparently "Auntie Fascist" has no reply ... I guess her money and her mouth go in different directions.

Auntie Fascist, the mailman is now knocking at your door for that check. Where is it??? I am sure you WILL write that check and not be a hypocrite.

See me after Mitch "The Human Basset Hound" McConnell writes his.

MCConnell is NOT calling for higher tax rates so no need for him to write that check. You, however, Auntie Fascist, is calling for higher tax rates (of OTHER people of course). So Auntie Fascist, you wrote your check yet or does higher tax rate apply only to other people? If you are going to call for higher tax rates, you got to pay a that tax rate first yourself, if not, then you are a hypocrite.

but when the economy shrivels up to the size of a pea don't go blaming it on Bush.

He did get us on a good start though, halved the Dow, doubled un-employment and was at the helm of the biggest financial collapse since the Great Depression including credit, housing and banking.

That's no easy feat.

You should really re-think who you are attacking.

I would think that President Clinton had a lot to do with it. Ever hear of the Community Reinvestment ACT, google it goof and quit blame Bush for everything.

WilliamOfRites

If Bush's economics were so bad, then why did Obama hire Bush's economic adviser and stay the Bush economic course of bailouts, stimulus and tax cuts to the rich that has pushed this country to the edge of a financial cliff and a government that is facing the possibility of a shut down on March 1, 2013 if the debt limit isn't raised with Obama pushing this country deeper in debt?

After all, Obama claims that increasing America's debt weakens us domestically and internationally. Obama's first four years has proved that Obama claim to be true. We now have a debt crisis that has made our government unstable. Companies don't invest in unstable government. This backed up with the GM's and Wells Fargo announcement that they are expanding their Operation in Asia while reducing their American work force.

What Happened -

Isn't it obvious? The last four years have been pretty bad under Obama, so we need someone like Obama to get us out of it, obviously...

Lol that's the definition of insanity right ? That explains a lot too bad the Obama supporters can't see it thru the rose colored glasses.

WILLIAM LOL

He did get us on a good start though, halved the Dow, doubled un-employment and was at the helm of the biggest financial collapse since the Great Depression including credit, housing and banking.

Who had the House and Senate the last two years of the Bush administration and went forward into the Obama administration. They could have started the turn then but were too doped up on their "victory" and celebration of "we finally get to drive the bus" that they couldn't see the forest for the trees and start cutting them down.

Get your GED ... yet ?

Along with insider trader benefits.

We have the 'choice' to keep them (elected Representatives) or vote them out......but we continue to vote them in thinking we will get different results......who's the fool??

What is pathetic is that its been reporter that over half of Congress are multimillionaires and the other half is working hard at becoming multimillionaires. They don't need the benefits they give themselves, yet they keep increasing their benefits package.

that's because the Democrat legislators are factored in.

Willy, because there are people in this United States that actually want to have fiscal responsibility. Hard to comprehend for you libs I know but it's true.....matter of fact almost half.

15 losses is a good start. Now, let's see 15 to 20 more losses in 2014 for republicans would be GREAT!

As long as people try and vote themselves money you are correct job1.

Geez, if 2/3 of the Republicans won with 60% or more of the vote .... it sounds like a MANDATE to me !

The good news is....we can eat our way to 50% obesity by then.....we'll be both fat and broke.

Obama is such a disappointment......rounding up all the 'free lunch' kids, going into the candy store and yelling, "Who wants FREE CANDY?????" The morons, of course, say, "WE DOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!" all the time unaware that the candy store is burning down around them.....sad

What about the mentally challenged..........the retarded.......is the Bible packing party not supportive to those folks??

the Democrats will try and pull the old phasing in of spending cuts ploy to delay cutting the budget ANYWHERE.

As opposed to Republicans who passed a temporary tax cut only to claim later that going back to the original tax rates would be a tax increase.

For those of you not paying attention, the Bush tax cuts ARE a tax loophole.

DKL That is a classic ad misericordiam fallacy. Typical of the left to think with emotions and not with logic or reason. This Bible packing person with a Master's degree in history and another in foreign languages has no problem having government support for people who genuinely need it. Those who don't I have big issues with. I have a special needs daughter who has lived in a care facility for several years. It is an annual battle with my local county government, run almost exclusively by democrats, just to get the help she is supposed to have by law. The democrats, especially those around here, always talk a good game about "helping those needing help" but around here, they have to be dragged kicking and screaming to be in compliance with the law. Could it be because she will never be able to vote?

I know where you are coming from, my sister is mentally retarded.

The Obama administration is projecting that if Obama stays the Bush economic course with Bernanke, by the time he leaves office the National debt will be over $23 trillion.

With the financial cliff hanging over our heads and our government facing another possible shut down on March 1, 2013, The next few months are going to be an insight into that projection.

jennifer - you're advertising - strictly prohibited on here. You're gone!!!!

The Obama administration is projecting that if Obama stays the Bush economic course with Bernanke, by the time he leaves office the National debt will be over $23 trillion.

Does that also contemplate federal spending continues at the same, or at an accelerated, pace from the first Obama administration?

Okay, we know what Obama's plan is for eliminating the Bush tax cuts for the wealthiest 2%. Now, what specific spending cuts, the amounts of those cuts and the date(s) they will be enacted has he proposed?

SC: Spending cuts?! Not an icecube's chance in hell of that happening!