We can sit and call each candidate a liar on the numbers......both sides tweak the numbers to their liking. The LIE of the evening is when Biden said that those in Benghazi NEVER requested additional security! AHHHHH.......how about a documented 10-12 times Joe.

That video is going to be blamed again........libs are going to blame this administration for losing the election all because they stood behind a video that 99.8% of the populations still hasn't seen nor cares about!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/12/vice-presidential-debate-polls-results_n_1960147.html?utm_hp_ref=elections-2012

A CNN survey of registered voters who watched the debate and had previously agreed to be interviewed found Paul Ryan the winner, 48 percent to 44 percent, but that was well within the survey's five percentage point margin of error. Respondents also said they thought Ryan communicated more clearly than Vice President Joe Biden, by a 50 percent to 41 percent margin, and that Ryan was more likable, 53 percent to 43 percent.

Those margins likely reflect the underlying partisan composition of the debate viewers that CNN interviewed. The cable network reported that slightly more Republicans viewed the debate (33 percent) than Democrats (31 percent), while 34 percent identified as independents.

The candidates performed similarly on whether respondents thought they were qualified to be president: 60 percent thought Ryan qualified and 38 percent did not. They said Biden was qualified by a 57 percent to 42 percent margin.

Fifty-five percent of CNN respondents said Biden performed better than they expected, 26 percent said he did worse, and 18 percent said he did the same as they expected. Ryan also impressed, with 51 percent saying he performed better, 19 percent worse, and 28 percent said he performed the same.

JoAnnaSmith1

Paul Ryan did just that by remaining civil in the presence of an obviously ill old man. Great job Mr. Ryan!

Last week when Romney was the aggressor and interrupting the president you loved it, saying the pres was weak, now that biden chestized his ass for all the miss information on every thing to tax's to foreign policy you are saying Ryan was remaining civil.

i loved it when Ryan tired to say that the pres has dismissed Israel and then biden told him about the phone calls that Ryan knew nothing about, that was great or when Ryan tied to talk about Afgan and the troops levels and how there are less American on dangerous patrols, then Biden told him we have trained over 300k afgan troops to do the patrols, he looked lost.

Can't have it both ways.

Sorry, there was no draw. The same snap polls that the right wing TRUMPETED for Romney, showed a decisive win for Biden. By HUGE margins.

How do you know that Ryan got spanked and sent to the corner? The right wing is wringing their hands about how MEAN Joltin' Joe was to him. Why poor Lyin' Ryan...he got PICKED on!

Lyin' Ryan got called out on his lies, and showed up for the neophyte that he is. Ryan has been propped up by the spin machine from the right, and guess what...the Emperor has no clothes!

Hard to sit there nude and shivering in front of God and everyone, right Ryan?

Joltin' Joe, hits it out of the PARK!

CNN insta-poll showed a split decision last night- and I agree. If you are an Obama supporter, you saw Biden as masterful; if a Romney supporter, you saw that obnoxious guy you're stuck sitting next to on a plane.

The money line? When Biden, after laughing through Ryan's comments about four dead Americans, solemnly nothing that the administration had NO IDEA that there had been requests for additional security in Libya.

The most ridiculous question of the night? The last, when the candidates were asked what each as "a human being, as a man", would bring to the office.

This was not a speed dating seminar, Martha- (although pretty sure any guy getting that question would flee the premises if it were).

The next week will show whether or not the cackling and derisive grinning will have the same impact on voters' perceptions as Al Gore's sighs. I make no predictions either way on that.

The lack of knowledge about requests for added security, however, will have to get walked back- so, is Obama going to say he knew, but denied it? Trotting out a proposed funding cut- that didn't get through the Senate- wont work. Even if the funding cuts had gone through, the administration could have pretty easily cut security in, say, Canada. Or Paris.

Aloha, Obama.

Alan...it's insane that every game has gone to the 9th inning within 1 run. I'm a bit nervous as it seems that in odd numbered games our closer collapses in the 9th inning. Game 5...might be a good idea to leave him out.

Bottom line though is that our 3-5 hitters need to get some hits on Sabathia.

Good luck and enjoy the game tonight!

Paul Ryan admitted last night that he and Romney would end women's reproductive rights based on their personal faith. When Ryan tried to discuss the deficit and debt, Biden reminded viewers that Ryan voted for all that debt--the GOP Built that.

The CBS snap poll showed VP Biden a clear winner over Paul Ryan. Odd how conservatives last week were quick to jump on the CNN snap polls (which sampled only males over 50, southern and white) but today they pick again the CNN poll because it made Ryan look slightly better. RYAN LOST the debate, he LOST it on every issue because, like Romney, he's an empty suit with a lot of words but no specifics and no real plan and the alleged 5-point plan falls well short on arithmetic.

How do we know VP Biden WON? By the very fact that GOPers are whining about Joe's smile, and that he picked on Paul Ryan. Odd, how Romney's cat that swallowed a canary grimmace last week was just fine with them. Here's my TAKE on VP Biden's smile? Go Joe!! Because that smile was aimed directly at Ryan and was one of incredulity, it said "do you believe this guy", "do you believe what you are hearing?".

Last night's big winner?

Easy.

The DETROIT TIGERS!

Justin Verlander for President.

I predicted a JV Complete Game win and a final score of 6-2. Final was 6-0.

JV Was on fire.

Bring on the Orioles. (Orioles give the Tigers Home Field and weekend fall baseball in Detroit is awesome!))

Just read some of the "teanuts" response to the debate! You can see from the usual characters that they are DESPERATE over Ryan's incompetent performance.

Poor POOR Joanna! Hard to watch the little bully Ryan get kicked and kicked again! It was an embarrassing performance for Ryan, and I am sure that he is firmly in time out today, his handlers wanting to punish him SEVERELY.

And now comes WCA, who can only talk about baseball!

And Bennie. So desperate. I love the smell of frantic re writing of history from people like you!

Two things bothered me most about Ryan's performance on behalf of the Republican's last night. Their utter disregard for putting our soldiers in harm's way and their inability to explain how they will pay for their tax cuts while increasing defense spending.

Have never been able to figure out their logic of why additional tax cuts for the very wealthy will do the economy any good. The only logic behind it can be that their major donors have demanded the same.

Biden did an excellent job of pointing out how Ryan asked for stimulus money to boost job growth for his constituents. Makes you wonder how honest he is about anything else.

Rather than dealing with an empty chair like Mr. Romney did with his debate with President Obama, Rep. Ryan had to unfortunately deal with the empty and diseased mind of Vice President Obama. It was difficult to observe the decline of a man of Mr. Biden's stature from this once radiant mind to this now diminished soul we saw last night. Lets hope Mr. Biden receives the proper attention and care, and lets pray for him and his family as he attempts to recovery at least some dignity from the sub-par performance he displayed last night.

Godspeed to you Mr. Biden!

Sorry, Feisty! It is a little early in the morning for Ryan in the all together, isn't it?

HA!

And more from poor, POOR JoAnna! So desperate that she must posit stereotypes about the elderly! Shame on you poor JoAnna!

So hard for you to understand that your hero, Ryan has HUGE clay feet!

trapp211

biden came off as immature, rude, and condescending..

ryan came off as presidential!

Newsflash: The new talking point coming from the FOX HACKS is "RUDE"!!!

LOL, it was so much fun watching VP Biden box Little Eddie Munster's eyes (metaphorically)

4 more 4 44

Obama/Biden

NewDay...which snap polls are you referring to? I only saw three...CNN had Ryan by a small margin...CBS had Biden...CNBC had Ryan.

Jody...I posted yesterday that the story about the CNN snap poll being all Southerners over 50 turned out to be false. Talking Points Memo (a liberal blog) is the one that broke the story and they posted an update on their article saying that they talked to CNN and it turns out the sample was perfectly normal and NOT all Southerners over 50. Will post the link if I can find it again.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2012/10/were_trying_to_figure_this_out.php

I thought the debate was "spirited," and highlighted the differences in the philosophies of both campaigns.

Biden definitely was the aggressor. But, as mentioned by FIRST READ, Ryan held his own.

The one thing I will say is that someone needs to tell Joe Biden that you don't win a debate by constantly interrupting, complaining about how much time your opponent gets to speak, nor by smiling sarcastically everytime your opponent makes a salient point.

Not to mention the fact that Biden had more than a minute longer "talk-time" than did Ryan. So, he really shouldn't have complained at all.

I loved it when Ryan pointed out Joe B's penchant for making verbal mistakes. The crowd loved it too!

But, I'll stick to what I said yesterday, and that is the really important debates are the ones between potential decision makers, not their number two guys.

In that sense I don't think last nights show would have changed anyone's mind.

However, it might be a preview of the way the Obama camp intends to approach the next two debates vs. Romney; and, that could backfire on him. One of the "raps" on Obama is his smug/holier than thou/"angry" sort of attitude. The last thing in the world his people want him to be seen as, is the "angry black man". It is a "front" that hasn't worked, in fact has backfired for a number of African American candidates for political office.

At the end of the day, it was a good showing by both VP candidates. But, the real entertainment, the real fireworks, and "the whole nine yards" will be on display in the next two debates between Romney and Obama.

Hold onto your hats, folks; it's going to be a bumpy ride!

Let's talk about who was lying last night. I think Old Joe and the President have some explaining to do. Joe flat out lied when he said they knew nothing of requests for additional security in Libya. Maybe he should have been watching the hearing on Wednesday instead of prepping so hard to be an A$$ last night. He didn't misrepresent a budget as you Liberals claim Romney is doing, oh no he misrepresented the fact that the White House is responsible for four people dead. The cover-up continues.

Shemp Mathews on last night’s Wiffleball showed he was as clueless a low information voter as Dennis Columbus, Ohio. Both were touting the “good” news about the jobless claims decrease report by the USDOL yesterday. Shemp went even further saying it was “proof” that the Friday jobs report wasn’t “cooked”.

What both morons cluelessly didn’t know, or covered up, is that the jobless claims report left out unreported numbers from “one large state… accounting for a substantial part of the decrease”.

Gee, would Gov. Moonbeam of Californication tell his state DOL to hold back their numbers in order to prop up the Barry campaign??

Why Jobless Claims May Not Be as Good as Market Thinks

Posted By: Kelly Evans | CNBC Reporter

CNBC.com

| 11 Oct 2012 | 11:10 AM ET

For the second time in a week, a government unemployment report is sowing confusion—and may not be as positive as the markets think.

First it was last Friday's August payrolls report, which showed an unexpectedly large drop in the unemployment rate, that spurred confusion (and conspiracy theories). Now, a sharp drop in the pace of new jobless claims has also left people scratching their heads.

The Labor Department on Thursday said the number of people filing jobless claims last week dropped by a seasonally adjusted 30,000—a pretty sharp decline, and one that left the total number of filings at a four-year low of 339,000.

Financial markets immediately rallied on the news. (Read more: Stocks Rise After Jobless Claims Hit 4-Year Low.)

While the government didn’t note any unusual factors in the release itself, a Labor Department official did tell news agencies covering the release about a quirk which partly accounted for the larger-than-expected drop.

As Dow Jones reported: “A Labor Department economist said one large state didn't report additional quarterly figures as expected, accounting for a substantial part of the decrease.”

@WCA / Grimey

I'm calling Baltimore the "Living Dead" team. They never die and just keep coming at you.

Anybody want A-Rod...going cheap. See Craigslist under used washed-out Madonna trinkets.

Everyone should have been embarrassed by how Biden acted during the debate. Biden came across as a rude grumpy old man that should have been tossed out of Washington many moons ago. But liberals could careless that he lied about the two wars, both of which he voted in favor of. Liberals could careless that he lied about the security requests in Libya. Liberals could careless that he was unable to secure concessions when we cut and ran from Iraq. Liberals are only concerned with winning, and at any cost. Biden offered nothing but insults, and the same old tired worn out rhetoric that has this country mired in partisanship. Biden is certainly no number 2, and as the truth detectors put it, most of what he had to say was malarkey.

JiA: What both morons cluelessly didn’t know, or covered up, is that the jobless claims report left out unreported numbers from “one large state… accounting for a substantial part of the decrease”.

This is similar to when Obama goes out golfing and shoots an 81, which is a great score for a duffer like him, with the exception that he quit the round after the 12th hole.

Obama 2012 - We don't cook the numbers, we just don't count them all

You all rooting for your guy are ridiculous.

And again, prove why none of you one party voters are who picks the President.

And why none of the people running care about you anymore. Yeah, they stopped talking to you. Notice that? You extremists get a Vice President. The country of independent thinkers gets a President.

NDD why bother talking about a debate that was a draw?

The left Base got what it wanted and the Right Base got what it wanted.

It will be up to the folks in the middle to determine if it effects their vote.

And folks in the middle don't seem to post here.

What the hell do you have against Baseball?

You Un-American?

Frank: Smartphone Town Hall, Biden 65%.

And again, you can see from WCA post, and no joe's post that they know the truth.

BIDEN WINS!

Somebody needs to explain to Ryan what the difference is between an embassy and a consulate. He seemed to think the U.S. had an embassy in Benghazi. It was pointed out that U.S. Marines are never stationed at consulates, only at embassies. The U.S. embassy to Libya is in Tripoli, which is the capital of Libya, not Benghazi.

The debate went about as I expected. The pundits say it was a tie, which I think it was, too, more or less. Biden shot down most of Ryan's lies, but Ryan was firing them off too fast for Biden to intercept them all.

Jody...I posted yesterday that the story about the CNN snap poll being all Southerners over 50 turned out to be false. Talking Points Memo (a liberal blog) is the one that broke the story and they posted an update on their article saying that they talked to CNN and it turns out the sample was perfectly normal and NOT all Southerners over 50.

____________________________________

Poor Jody, another inconvenient lefty liberal lie that she totally believed is exposed.

LMAO!!!!

I remarked a few days ago that Obama should have let Bill Clinton pinch hit for him in the debate with Romney. Biden would have been a good pinch hitter, too. Like Clinton, Biden much did a better job of defending Obama's record than Obama did.

Jia: Th FR regular lefty liberals seem angry today.

Please, Joe, they're always angry. Quite the humorless rag-tag bunch they are. It must be a hard life for them, never to be happy.

And please, lets all take a moment and pray for Joe Biden and his family. Dementia is a very difficult illness to deal with. It is truly sad that Mr. Biden's last public appearance had to go out on such a sour note.

He was a great man, a great American.

Hey White Collar Auto. Go Tigers. Look at your guys! The Tigers sure turned it around in the last 2 weeks of the season. They played better than the White Sox. All I can say is go Tigers.

Over and over Ryan kept saying "the choice is clear", and that's all the little Man got right. Clearly, these two, Romney and Ryan, are running on some sort of unintelligible illusion. It was so easy for Joe. Good to know the Vice President yet remembers how to change a babies sh^tty diaper, which is what He did for Paul Ryan last night. The people of Ryans Congressional district have to be ashamed and embarrassed. This man Ryan is their Representative, and a damn poor one.

Great posts this Friday by all the liberals. David Walker, Tunde Akins, Nashville Fan excellent posts.

Beverly, glad you posted that Biden quote. It summed up the choice voters have; the stark difference between the Republicans and the Democrats. It is better for Government to err on the side of charity than to ignore the needs of its less-fortunate citizens. That quote is a window into Biden's soul--he knows tough times, he understands those who struggle. Contrast that with Ryan's own need for government assistance during a difficult time yet RYAN WILL DENY that same assistance to others because Ayn Rand told him everyone should be on their own. We should learn from our experiences; obviously, Ryan learned nothing from his.

On Benghazi attacks, it is still hard to confirm what really happened.

There were conflicting reports about protests at Benghazi consulate in week after attack. Following are some that detailed protests there.

On Benghazi attack, according to Abdel-Monen Al-Hurr, spokesman for Libya's Supreme Security Council, in a 9-11-12 6:29 am EDT Reuters report, protest turned violent at Consulate.

According to Hadeel Al-Shalchi, Reuters correspondent in 9-12-12 9:45 am EDT report, protestors told him that protest turned violent and security personnel he interviewed said Libyan security men who sympathized with protests, allowed protest to get too close to Consulate. NPR carried this story on 9-13-12.

Reuters followed this story line for the following week leading up to Ambassador Rice's appearances on Sunday shows on 9-16-12.

The Obama administration contends their best intelligence in this period was that attack grew out of protests at Benghazi consulate.

These stories from Reuters confirm this version of events. Hopefully, the FBI is interviewing all these people to find out the real story in Benghazi attacks.

Well, some will call it a draw. (Guess who?). I sure didn't watch any "draw" last night. Biden was obviously the clear winner. No question. And why? Because it's the same old BS that the Repugs keep putting out. " We're going to do all these thing." My continuing question to them. HOW. They never answer that question. And why?. BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW HOW. Just the same old answer, smoke and mirrors.

Can't wait for the elections so we can put these Repugs out to pasture.

OBAMA IN 2012.

trapp211

biden came off as immature, rude, and condescending..

ryan came off as presidential!

Ryan came off wimpy

and biden went off on Ryan, he was telling crazy half truths and out right lies!!!

Ryan said that his tax proposal have been tried and done in the past, I though biden was going to jump out of his chair, that was the grandest lie of the year then he mention Jack Kennedy.

hell Sarah palin could have done a better job, and she is a half witt.

JoAnna: you are now over the line. I generally think the things you post are so funny and without merit that I enjoy pricking at your conceit.

Shame on YOU for using dementia as a political tool. THOUSANDS of families deal with this every day, and struggle every day, largely because YOUR side keeps cutting supportive services. It is NOT a POLITICAL football, it is not funny and it shows us what you are.

A remorseless, conscienceless partisan.

You owe the families that are dealing with dementia an apology.

Looks like old Joe screwed up the Libya story bigtime.

MARTHA RADDATZ: And they wanted more security there.

BIDEN: But we weren't told they wanted more security there. We did not know they wanted more security there.

Of course, the fact of the matter is earlier in the day State Department employees testified to Congress that they had repeatedly requested more security but that those requests had been denied. So the gang that still hasn't quite learned how to shoot straight with the American people is revealed yet again for all the world to see. First they inaccurately attribute the Benghazi attack to an offensive video when we have since learned that State knew from day one there was no protest outside the building that preceded the violence. Then good old Joe sticks his foot in his smiling mouth yet again by proclaiming ignorance about any requests to beef up security. The administration's dissembling on this episode can only be described as painfully amateurish at best, or deliberately deceitful at worst. Take your pick.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/right-turn/post/biden-adds-to-the-libya-lies/2012/10/12/b25227ae-145f-11e2-ba83-a7a396e6b2a7_blog.html

By the posts of the republican/tea party their guy got taken to the wood shed. Put the blame on little paulie. From what I'm reading your blaming his loss on everything but paulie. I didn't watch the debate. Just reading the posts on here tells who won and who lost. By the republican/tea party posts Joe kicked some major a$$

Laughing Joe Biden criticized by....

Former Bush chief of staff, Washington Post, GOP strategists, Washington post movie critics etc. Sorry elites media you can't spin this debate performance.

At first I noted that he is laughing too much, but then when I saw Joe was using it as a way to say. Folks, this is a bunch of Malarkey it grew on me then it fired me up. Only someone like Joe Biden could pull this off. The reasons why this worked was that it was not some strategy. It was just the man being himself, real and not robotic. I don't know about you but for some non political people they appreciate a politician who is real, who you would want to get a 'proverbial beer with'. A majority of the population will see this as a humanization of a man who brought not only smiles, but levity and compassion where appropriate. By the way at no time did Biden laugh when speaking about the economy, about Libya or about serious issues, he merely laughed at Ryan's weak attempts to answer and evade questions.

On substance, Biden stressed the differences between the two parties. My favorite line, repeated three times by Joe. ".We will leave Afganistan in 2014, We will leave Afganistan in 2014, We will leave Afganistan in 2014 "

On foreign policy, Biden easily beat Ryan on Afganistan, Syria and Iran. His question to Ryan was hard hitting, "You want Americans to keep doing the fighting and dying? No we trained the Afgans it is time for them to stand up. That is the only way we were able to transition out of Iraq."

He ripped through the hypocricy of the GOP who howl about Libya but accept no responsibility for reduced embassy funding. He noted that after 911 we came together. Biden said we will find out who did this and find them.

Biden clearly ripped through Ryan's talking points about Syria and Iran. My oft noted point is that for all the howls from the GOP, they have no plan on what to do in Iran or Syria. In fact their solutions are what Obama is doing. I found it frightening to see that Ryan practically jumped out of his seat when he disregarded the consequences of starting a war in Iran.

The moderator asked Ryan again and again, why no specifics. Do you have a way to make the math work on your tax policy?

Don't know about you but I am energized and happy with the VP's showing.

For all you grumpy conservatives don't worry you can go watch "Atlas Shrugged" tonight and get goose bumps. I'll be watching "Argo".

Worst Year for Political Journalism EVER.

After the VP debate, we were treated to a running Twitter feed along the bottom of the screen on NBC. I'm listening to Chuck Todd's insta-analysis while reading the comments of every NBC employee except the janitor, below him. Who are these people, what qualifies them to coment, and why do their reactions deserve my attention? I JUST WATCHED the DEBATE, I think I am entitled to my own impressions.

This morning, I was happy to see Rachel Maddow on the morning show, however Savanna Guthrie just had to contradict her, during that segment, because, you know, viewers might be influenced by the obviously bright Ms Maddow, and we can't have that. Then they switched to interviewing a Republican partisan, to offer balance, I guess. I turned off NBC, at the point.

In fairness, the other stations I surfed after the debate, were equally as vacuous as NBC. What is the opposite of a Golden Age of political journalism? It is the age we are living in. I am so sick of broadcast "journalism."

Joe HAHAHAHA:

Talking Points Memo (a liberal blog) is the one that broke the story and they posted an update on their article saying that they talked to CNN and it turns out the sample was perfectly normal and NOT all Southerners over 50.

The CNN poll showed a Ryan won by 4 points among registered voters, which is a statistical tie. But CBS did a poll of UNCOMMITTED voters that showed that Biden won 50% to Ryan's 31%. It's the uncommitted voters that need to be persuaded, so it looks like Biden won the more important group decisively.

Maybe Joe will explain how CBS is part of the big conspiracy to fudge poll numbers in Obama's favor. If polls don't show Romney leading, it's got to be a conspiracy!

If you know anything about Biden's life, and how he handled the tragedy dealt him, and the fact that his sons served their country, you cannot have anything but respect for the man. I will stand with an honest, say it like it is man like Joe Biden everyday of the week and twice on Sunday.

The democratic ticket is fighting for the people who have the least resources and influence, that takes perseverance and guts, the other side is representing the people with money and now even greater influence (thanks to CU), who can line their pockets and donate truckloads of campaign cash, how easy is that. What great qualities does it take to become a puppet for some uber rich benefactors? I'll stand with guys like Obama and Biden every time, I was educated by Nuns and they educated me the way my parents always encouraged and chose for me to be educated and huge part of that was that we have a responsibility as Christians and members of society to look out for those who are old, sick, or just weak. You know the ubber rich don't need your charity, or sympathy, or tax breaks, they can take care of themselves, they always have.

If the middle class elects Romney they will deserve everything he plans to do to them and not for them.

Just for fun, let's review all the LIES in Mitt Romney's Charlie-Sheen-style "winning" debate performance last week!

One Debate, 27 Lies

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9r6TA1PNG_M&feature=player_embedded

Now THAT is a President we can all believe in, right? A tax dodging, job shipping, position shifting, backroom dealing truth massager.

Oh brother.

WCA:

Last night's big winner?

Easy.

The DETROIT TIGERS!

The games were certainly exciting last night WCA. I'm more of a football fan than baseball, so congrats to Nashville_fan and the Titans for beating a team that is past their prime, similar to Mr. Biden, the Pittsburgh Steelers.

He (Biden) brought up Osama bin Laden, resurrecting Romney’s 2007 line that he “wouldn’t move heaven and earth to get bin Laden."

Romney also said (when he thought the cameras were not rolling) that he would "kick the ball down the field" in the Middle East instead of actively working to achieve peace.

In public the Romney/Ryan ticket talks tough on defense, but they have no solutions--except for another war-- and no expertise in foreign affairs. Romney has insulted England, the Palestinians, and Spain all in a matter of months! He's an empty suit on foreign policy and a laughingstock throughout the world.

As for the U.S. economy: how does Romney plan to create 12 million new jobs? He claims that government cannot create jobs, and futhermore he has no strategy beyond the failed ideology of cutting taxes for the rich "job creators", those charlatans who have robbed the middle class of jobs and of their fair share of the pie.

Middle class voters are the majority of all voters, and they won't stand for serfdom under the bootheels of Romney, Ryan and their bloodsucking cronies. This is supposed to be a country of opportunity for everyone, not just for those born on third base. The strength of this nation is vitally dependent on a healthy, educated and employed middle class that has disposable income to fuel our consumer-driven economy. President Obama understands that. Obama is the right man to lead us forward.

RE-ELECT OBAMA/BIDEN

Grimey, I wasn't around yesterday. My mistake in repeating an untrue story, sorry about that. I had heard nothing debunking it until your post today. I found that initial story troubling but considering the underhanded tactics from too many on the right, it would not have surprised me to learn the snap poll had been stacked.

I still stand by my comment, though, that conservatives eagerly jumped on the snap polls last week yet are quick to ignore them from last night. BTW, I'll take CBS's snap polls any day over CNNs which always seem off from the rest.

Notice how many times Ryan said "What we're saying is..." or "I'm saying that...",more than 100 times. When they change their policies again, Ryan can say "I was just sayin'" It is a slippery way to lie without having to be called a lier. He can't give a promise or a straight answer. He even stumbled when spitting out the same old line he's been using for 2 months. Not ready to lead. Biden cleaned his clock.

Bill Fairfax Va: Looks like old Joe screwed up the Libya story bigtime.

Any intersection of facts and Team Obama/Biden are pure coincidence.

YellowDog, Forrest,

Biden laid the facts out against every distorted talking point Ryan recited.

The most revealing flip flop Ryan revealed was his statement on abortion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/decision2012/on-abortion-paul-ryan-articulates-position-different-from-earlier-one/2012/10/12/3e4743c6-1419-11e2-bf18-a8a596df4bee_story.html

Romney/Ryan are not to be trusted with any issue that affects women.

"Biden brings the Heat"

I wouldn't call repeating Obama's lame attempt at bullying the American people into believing the Democratic party's made up version of the Republican platform as bringing on the heat. Just more smoke and mirrors since they have no success of their own to run on. Biden spent much time attacking Ryan based on Democratic lies. Pathetic.

Debate scorecard:

Romney/Ryan 2

Obama/Biden 0

P.S. Biden's acting like a bitter grumpy old man didn't do much to improve his message either. Debate tricks will never make up for substance.

Joe in Albany, I'm glad Biden snickered and laughed a lot. Otherwise, you wouldn't have a whole lot to talk about. Other than Lybia, Biden actually had a lot of good things to say. Romney and Ryan have no facts to back up their plans.

My apologies for attributing Frank Grime's comment to Joe HAHAHA. Joe quoted Frank without attribution, making it appear it was his own comment. Maybe Joe is really 8 years old and his mommy hasn't taught him yet about how you're supposed mention the person you're quoting.

The score is 1 and 1 with 2 to go.

Joe in Albany

Hmmm.....

Th FR regular lefty liberals seem angry today.

Gee, I wonder why??

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You got your knickers in a twist. Do you ever get anything right Joey? Like my GF Clara said :

This one's for YOU, Albany! Bwaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhaha

https://twitter.com/NPsteve/status/256593046727180288/photo/1

Awesome Joey, Facts Matter. LOL! LMAO! Hell Yea!!!

4 more 4 44

Obama/Biden 2012

Ryan got the smack down last night - you need a strong leader that will stand up for the truth. You all forget what VP means - God forbid Romeny wins and Little Eddie is VP and something tragic happens to Romeny and Eddie needs to take the helm, who's policies will he then be implementing??? His ultra-right wing agenda - will he be able to stand up to the other leaders of the world or will they look at him and laugh just like VP Biden did last night.

Like VP Biden stated last night - while he has his personal beliefs he doesn't think it is right to push them on his fellow Americans that don't hold the same beliefs. Ryan on the other hand as no problem attacking women and taking away their freedoms.

Hey Jody...

No worries...wasn't trying to be mean...just wanted to make sure you saw the story.

Have a good weekend! :-)

Biden has NO idea whats going on in Libya, has No plan for the future, interupted 82 times, laughed like the drunk obnoxious uncle who everybody knows is not all there, could not recall specific town names in Afganistan but referred to those as PLACES, had to be asked what "STUFF" ment. Does not have the mental capacity of Paul Ryan, not even close.

I'm trying to figure out why Lyin Ryan demanded to be called Mr. instead of his title "Congressman"?

Why? Isn't he proud to be a member of Congress?

*snark off* lol

Job1 said this is how we do it.

Being disrespectful and condescending and talking over people with a legitimate answer. Yes we know that's how you do it. All bark and no substance. The yapping dog in the corner that yips and barks all night demanding to be seen. The occupy protesters being fools with no reason or message just yapping and being a nuisance to actual society.

So you want the President to come out and be like Joe? I hope you get your wish and then we will see him on a public stage as clueless in the last debate and foolish if he follows your lead. Please do. Those without blinders on like yourself who do not know this about the President already will see it.

It might work in the hood where you call home but in the real world that doe's not work.

Biden is giggling through topics that are very serious in nature?

Who on earth would take the guy seriously?

No company or country would have a leader behave this goofy and keep them in a real job demanding integrity and respect.

NorthstarDFL

YellowDog, Forrest,

Biden laid the facts out against every distorted talking point Ryan recited.

The most revealing flip flop Ryan revealed was his statement on abortion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/decision2012/on-abortion-paul-ryan-articulates-position-different-from-earlier-one/2012/10/12/3e4743c6-1419-11e2-bf18-a8a596df4bee_story.html

Romney/Ryan are not to be trusted with any issue that affects women.

Northstar,

I keep asking myself how can anyone vote for Romney to be president when he won't even show his tax returns to prove he has not committed a felony?

Sorry to say this (not really), but Paul Ryan had his @$# handed to him last night.

LOL, and ah.....which debate were YOU watching? Certainly not the one that the rest of us saw.

Even the very liberally biased MSNBC commentators called it a draw.

Biden made no more important points than did Ryan. The only thing he did do, which frankly started to look rather odd about halfway through the debate, was to display a sarcastic smile everytime Ryan opened his mouth to speak. After about the half dozenth time, it started to become almost cartoon-istic.

But, the moment the crowd liked best was when Ryan pointed out Biden's habbit of making verbal gaffe's. They clearly understood what he was getting at, and they were very much entertained by it.

Nobody really wins or loses a VP debate. Neither man is, or is going to be a decision maker. The best that can be hoped for is to cheer-lead for your party's candidate, and make yourself look good while doing it.

In this particular case, the debate was lively, and the rhetoric was strong from both sides. But, neither man "put it on" the other. There was no "showstopping" moment that will be remembered throughout the ages (such as Lloyd Benstens "you're no Jack Kennedy" remark to Dan Quayle in 1988.)

So, I'm afraid you're just going to havr to settle for a draw, because that's what most honest pundits are calling it.

Unless of course you're telling me that, liken to their "messiah" Obama supporters can't get honest with themselves.....which wouldn't surprise me one stinking bit.

DEMOCRATS FOR ROMNEY 2012!!!!!

WCA: The left Base got what it wanted and the Right Base got what it wanted.

You're trying to be reasonable with unreasonable people WCA. Good luck with that.

When Ryan critisized Obama for pulling troops out of one of the most dangerous area's of Afghanistan Biden noted we've trained over 315,000 Afgan troops over the last 10 years and you want us to bring in more American troops instead of the Afgans we've been training because it's dangerous? Ryan looked lost for an answer.

DogmaBites - What exactly ARE Obama's plan's? Sure didn't hear ANY plan for the future last night! Unless laughing like a senial old man is a plan.

Anyone else notice how similar Biden's ramblings and Fisty's posts are? Snide, narcissistic, all knowing all seeing, rude, inflammatory, deflective, and off topic? Must be a liberal trait.

Look at factcheck.org this morning.

I am just glad someone finally called Romney/Ryan out that their plan is mathematically impossible.

You can not lower the rate in which you tax a base and make it up by eliminating deductions from that base because lower the rates also lowered the amount recovered from eliminated deductions from that same base. You simply can't make up for a 20% cut for ALL by eliminating deductions for SOME. To even come close you wold have to pick the deductions that are used by the largest amount of people.

With no retort to the accusation and glossed over with Paul Ryan's story telling, it is obvious to me that they know what their doing would raise annual deficits, especially when they can not name a single deduction that they will eliminate, the half page tax plan on Romney's site doesn't even mention the word deduction.

So we have two men, one man with a well thought and well written out comprehensive plan, on the other it seems to be wing it based on opinion of the immediate moment. Choice should be obvious by now.

Kaybee,

Moody's predicts the U.S. is set to make 12 million jobs by 2016.

President Obama has set up a strong foundation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/08/30/factchecker-romneys-12-million-job-promise/

MireVo3 - What the HELL is Obama's plan? Tax the rich, that's the plan? Taxing the rich will create jobs? How does that create jobs? Backhouse - Read the Moody article. Moody credits BUSH for the tax cuts, that's Obama's plan? Moody also says Medicare and Social Securtiy must be reformed. HMMM, sounds like Paul Ryan's plan. So credit Bush for the tax cuts and Obama for what?

Biden is giggling through topics that are very serious in nature?

Biden smiles and shakes his head when Ryan makes statements clearly distorted or untrue, that's not giggling. Funny you people had no problem with Romney smirking and shaking his head every time president Obama mentioned Romney's 5 trillion dollar tax cut plan as if it was the most rediculous thing he'd ever heard. He ignores that on his website he lists a 20% across the board tax cut, extending the Bush cuts permantly and eliminating estate taxes which according to the CBO and most economists totals almost 5 trillion.

Dear ZMann2012:

Last week, Mitt Romney wrote his own debate rules AND moderated the debate and everyone thought he was "winning!".

Now, when Paul Ryan cannot explain how he will pay for the Romney/Ryan tax plan or foreign policy plan, can't explain why the stimulus was bad for everyone else but good for him, can't explain why his budget guts Medicare and now he pretends to want to save it, can't explain how he wouldn't be where he was to day if he and his momma weren't "takers", you wanna tell me that is a draw?

Whatever you say Zmann. Whatever you say.

MireVo3 - What the HELL is Obama's plan? Tax the rich, that's the plan? Taxing the rich will create jobs? How does that create jobs?

You think cutting taxes on the rich 5 trillion will create jobs? We tried that under Bush, how'd that work last time?

Anyone notice how Talkie poor little fellow likes to stalk Feisty?

And write exactly the posts that he wrongly attributes to her?

Talkie, all wind, no substance.

I was glad the Vice President told us about the letters Republican Rep Ryan sent him asking for stimulus money for his district in order to create jobs.

It has always struck me as ironic how Republicans claim to be against federal spending while grabbing all the pork and personal perks they can get their hands on - the Alaskan Bridge to Nowhere projects come to mind.

And Rep Ryan voted to cut spending on security for embassies by $300,000,000? Republicans have strange spending priorities.

Biden wiped the floor with Ryan last night. Ryan looked like a petulant child who wanted to stomp his foot and scream

Biden had the facts and Ryan - just like Romney had none. Biden called Ryan on the Romney tax lie and Ryan still lied.

I love that Biden called Ryan on his Grover Norquist oath. That needs to come out over and over again so people understand that Romney/Ryan are only dedicated to Grover Norquist and not the country.

Good job last night and President Obama will come out strong for the next debate. Glad the polls of Independents showed a Biden win last night. It shows people are listening.

Obama/Biden 2012

It does not work Larry, business does not hire because their taxes have been cut, they don't hire just because their profit margin goes up, they only hire when the demand for their goods and services increase, period. If you don't have customers, taxes on the dollar you did not make become the first thing on your list of last things to worry about.

Larry - And Obama's plan IS?

Larry,

Biden was completely crazy last night. No-one, that hopes to gain respect and deliver a message behaves like that, and the worst part is that it was all debate long. Can't convince me it resonated other than for those that behave the same way too.

He would have won, if he had appeared normal. I see people like him all the time, in the old folks home I visit. Giggling and smiling at everything, nuts and bolts are missing.

JoAnnaSmith1

Bill Fairfax Va: Looks like old Joe screwed up the Libya story bigtime.

Any intersection of facts and Team Obama/Biden are pure coincidence.

Joanna, the high lite of the night was when Ryan was Dumb Enough to mention the billion spend and as he said wasted stimulus, biden then reminded him that he still has the letter from Ryan asking for stimulus funds he was against and did not vote for.

did anybody notice that biden never drink water, but it was like Ryan was drinking his like it was JackDaniel's

Imean it the whole night was great.

Obama has a comprehensive balanced approached on his website well written and detailed... why don't you do something you never done before and self inform.

1. I don't know what debate some people saw last night but the one I saw had Biden kicking Ryan's lying a$$. Ryan looked like a liar and was a liar!!
2. My gut feeling is that Obama/Biden will win ... mostly because we still live in the United States of America where lying (Ryan/Robmey) and cheating(state Voter ID laws) are still seen as dishonorable and unworthy of the highest office...

ZMan2012

Sorry to say this (not really), but Paul Ryan had his @$# handed to him last night.

LOL, and ah.....which debate were YOU watching? Certainly not the one that the rest of us saw.

Zman - I think you need to go back and read the comments. Most people on this board believe that Biden kicked Ryan's a@@. Maybe we should be wondering what debate YOU were watching?? Certainly not the one that the rest of us saw!

MireVo3 - Your voting for the man, tell me what part of his plan you think will work, with at best a divided congress? His budgets do not recieve ANY votes! From EITHER party! AGAIN WHAT IS HIS PLAN?

David Walker,

Thank you for a great summary of not only the debate, but the central issue of the once respectable Republican Party.

Great post.

Joe in Albany

Well, Bozo the Biden delivered the expected Hillaryous laughs last night!!!

I love it. The only thing the righties have too complain this morning is Joe's smiling too much.

A CNN poll taken after the debate ended indicates 51% thought Ryan won but Wolf Blitzer considered it a tie. I think Joe Biden hurt himself with all those clownish smirks and interruptions and I wonder if it was a strategy conjured up by his coaches or just Joe being Joe.

Bill Fairfax VA

Rubin's article in Washington Post is factually inaccurate. It makes assumptions not yet proven.

While a couple of State Dept officials said they were aware of additional security requests for Benghazi consulate, they did not indicate if these requests were handled at their level or passed up the chain of command.

When Biden says "we were not told", this is likely true as he is speaking for the White House. Whether these requests even reached the top levels in the State Dept. is still in doubt.

With security cutbacks worldwide due to budget cutbacks, every embassy and consulate in the world was probably fighting to avoid cutbacks in personnel. There are security concerns and threats at many embassies and consulates around the world. That Benghazi requests were denied was probably just one of many requests denied around the world.

When budgets are cut back, administrators are faced with tough choices. When something bad happens, they are the first to be blamed. I think this is very unfair.

Budget cutters such as Paul Ryan deserve much of the blame here.

Go read his plan Geo, don't you think you would gain more information by reading it yourself than to sit here and yell "whats his plan?". I am not going to sit here and spoon feed it to you such a extensive plan when it is available for everyone to read...

GO READ, or does the information even matter to you? it seems you already made your decision without even comparing the candidates plans.

proposed budgets received 0 votes form both parties, do you honestly believe that? or do you just need something to instill some shock value in your lack of being informed?

I think Joe Biden hurt himself with all those clownish smirks and interruptions

Yup. Biden's boorish demeanor surely played well to the left wing base, but anyone who thinks independents or undecideds were persuaded to vote Democratic by that performance are smoking some really bad dope.

Obama's plan two years ago now and killed by house republicans who reneged on their chant of jobs, jobs, jobs was to invest on repairing and building needed infrastructure in the US. This would have provided sales to local suppliers and contracts for local businesses throughout the nation. They would have hired help to meet this demand and those people employed would have paid taxes, and spent their money with local businesses spurring more hiring, making many republicans happy that those people were earning money and paying into the system instead of relying on government services and funds. We still need that infrastructure, and the government will still pay for it because the private sector certainly does not build roads or bridges or anything else out of the goodness of their heart. Republicans in the house killed a lot of peoples chances to earn their own way and then complain about them not earning their own way. They made sure many remained on unemployment and welfare, and then complain about people being on unemployment and welfare. They really don't mind welfare so much if it suits their politics, evidently they would rather spend taxes on welfare than on infrastructure, then they can complain about people being on welfare and try to blame Obama for their failure to spend tax money wisely on things the nation desperately needs while simultaneously providing jobs and stimulus for local merchants. The notion that republicans are fiscally responsible is ridiculous, look at what they have done to the country, and their proposed solution to the problems they have created is to cut revenue to pay the bills, that's just freaking brilliant isn't it - empty your wallet to fill your your wallet, it's freaking magic!

Vote for a politician not a magician, magic is not real, it's a trick, trick or treat, which do you prefer. Do you want to trick the nation into more decline or treat the nation to the rebuilding it needs and deserves.

biden did exactly what was expected from the "Angry, Drunk Old-Man", and I will add that he looked and acted like a drunk on angel Dust!!

The real Loser was that poor woman trying to Moderate. Shows just how little Progressive-MArxists think of and treat women!! It was shameful!!!

Joe in Albany

Since you seem to be obsessed with Biden's smile...it would appear you realize Big Joe Biden handed the boy his a$$.

border joe

Outstanding! Another neo-conservative confirmation that Mr. Biden stepped in Ryan's a$$ and walked across the floor.

Independent Thought - so you believe Romney belongs in an old folks home? See he acted much like Biden did when he debated the President. He kept interrupting; laughing; was rude to the moderator and talked over everyone. So it's good to know we can count on you voting Romney into an old folks home!

I love how Bill of Fairfax thought Biden was boorish but praised Romney for the same tactics. Bill face it - Ryan lost and looked childish as he did.

Obama/Biden 2012

Last week when Romney was the aggressor and interrupting the president you loved it, saying the pres was weak, now that biden chestized his ass for all the miss information on every thing to tax's to foreign policy you are saying Ryan was remaining civil.

It's not surprising that idiots who make statements like the above do not discern the obvious differences between Mitt Romney and Joe Biden. Mitt Romney was politely correcting Obama's misrepresentations, as should be done in such circumstances during a debate in which your opponent is attempting to incorrectly "interpret" your statements, as Obama was attempting to do to Mitt. It's significant that the overall time that Obama spent speaking during that debate was longer than Romney's. Biden, on the other hand was bullying for the sake of bullying. Whereas the Democrats are directing their propaganda at Americans who cannot tell the difference and are therefore part of the Democrat's "base", Ryan's debate participation could clearly be appreciated by intelligent Americans who can distinguish between substance and a bizarre performance such as Biden's imitation of The Joker, directed at blind uncomprehending fanatics.

Kaybee,

Moody's predicts the U.S. is set to make 12 million jobs by 2016.

President Obama has set up a strong foundation.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/08/30/factchecker-romneys-12-million-job-promise/

Thanks for the link, Backhouse.

Well, isn't that handy for Romney then? He could take credit for all the jobs that roll in if he's elected, without even lifting a finger! Romney is used to making a lot of money by doing absolutely nothing.

Knowing his penchant for 'creative destruction', Romney would make sure all the benefits flowed to his wealthy cronies.

When Biden says "we were not told", this is likely true as he is speaking for the White House.

"Biden's bold statement was directly contradicted by State Department officials just this week, in testimony before a congressional panel and in unclassified cables released by a congressional committee....Maybe Biden was too busy in debate prep to watch?"

Budget cutters such as Paul Ryan deserve much of the blame here.

"Ryan, as head of the House Budget Committee, set broad targets for spending in his budget blueprint that would have cut nondefense discretionary spending by 19 percent in 2014. There were no specific cuts in embassy security, but Democrats have extrapolated the number, across the board, to come up with this statistic. But it is not a real number with true budget impact."

Looks like you're the one who doesn't have the facts straight.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/fact-checking-the-vice-presidential-debate/2012/10/12/e900404a-13d0-11e2-be82-c3411b7680a9_blog.html?hpid=z2

How can you tell you are in a debate with a Progressive ?

The Progressive:

• Smiles
• Smirks
• Waves hands to God
• Points fingers
• Looks down
• Looks at the ceiling
• Yells
• Interrupts the moderator
• Interrupts you
• Tells lies
• Deflects
• Blames someone else

Wait a minute....these fit Mr. Biden (and Mr. Obama) to a tee.

I wonder why Mr. Obama is in seclusion at the White House today ? Oh, yeah....thinking of how he is going to explain Jumping Joe's performance last night to the Liberal media.

How Progressives (Liberals~Democrats) argue:

• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGwtG8nVpUU&feature=related

David Walker - first off I want to say I have enjoyed your posts immensely. I don't know where the people here have the time to write long, thoughtful posts. I work full time and only occasionally post with one liners.

I wonder how many veterans remember President Richard Nixon's "secret plan" for getting us out of Viet Nam, a secret that was buried with Richard Nixon. Three-million-troops to Viet Nam, 58,000 dead, hundreds of thousands maimed and wounded, and we will never know the full extent of the psychological damage. And here we have this clueless punk Ryan telling us we shouldn't set a timetable for dumping this generation's Viet Nam - Afghanistan.

This particular statement disturbed me to no end. Why because I can tell you what most of my friends full extent of psychological damage - SUICIDE. And it seems to be prevelent nowadays too. Not too hard to understand that.

Last nights debate - CBS Polls: Obama won by 96% to Ryan's 4% !!!!

Look like the little worm Ryan had his head stuck in Joe's "A" !!!!!!!!

When Ryan critisized Obama for pulling troops out of one of the most dangerous area's of Afghanistan Biden noted we've trained over 315,000 Afgan troops over the last 10 years and you want us to bring in more American troops instead of the Afgans we've been training because it's dangerous? Ryan looked lost for an answer.

Of course he did. That's like 5 times the number of troops we have over there. Ryan was wondering why the math doesn't work on that one. Either that or he was wondering why Jojo the Chimp would just make stuff like that up.

Romney smirks and smiles and interrupts Obama and is seen as strong and a leader. Biden smirks and shakes his head and interrupts Ryan to challenge his statements and is seen as Impolite and in dementia. In conservative minds, the rules seem to change depending on how their candidate is performing.

In my opinion, Biden did everything that was asked of him and more. He countered Obama's performance from last week, he brought up the points that Obama did not, he challenged Ryan on the Republican positions.

The fact that conservatives/Republicans are complaining and denigrating tells me all I need to know. Biden won. Handily.

Bill, Fairfax VA 1.112

For a moment I thought Ryan was going to turn to Biden and inquire if he was 'high" on something. In any event, even an NBC reporter (David Gregory) said Biden was out of control.

Be sure to check out SNL this coming Saturday. If you think they've had great skits mocking Obama and Romney, old crazy smirking Joe has just provided them with the skit of the season.

And the lefties think Biden won the debate. Go figure.

Last week when Romney was the aggressor and interrupting the president you loved it, saying the pres was weak, now that biden chestized his ass for all the miss information on every thing to tax's to foreign policy you are saying Ryan was remaining civil.

The sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander...

Patriotic American:

Last nights debate - CBS Polls: Obama won by 96% to Ryan's 4% !!!!

Ummmmmm...huh? I assume you mean Biden. And CBS was the most favorable poll to Biden of the major polls and it wasn't anywhere near 96%. Do you have a source on either Obama or Biden beating Ryan 96-4 in last night's debate?

MireV03

proposed budgets received 0 votes form both parties, do you honestly believe that? or do you just need something to instill some shock value in your lack of being informed?

they did actually but it was only because the Republicans made changes knowing that the Democrats would never vote for them. It's the oldest gimmick in the playbook.

Obama's 2013 budget proposal was about 2000 pages. House Republicans submitted their own 52 page bill that they called 'The Obama Budget" and claimed is was just like Obama's budget....except anyone who can do simple math can see that it was about 1948 pages shorter so hardly the same.

Bill Fairfax VA

According to CBS snap poll of independent voters, Biden won the debate 51 to 34%.

You are right when you say Biden excited his base. The likely voter poll numbers will soon more closely resemble the registered voter poll numbers where Obama has a bigger lead.

Great job, Joe Biden.

Vice President Biden was condescending and arrogant. He continues to be an embarrassment to the office he holds. Only a desperate person would act like a buffoon in an attempt to keep their opponent from finishing a point.

America is faced with huge, serious issues and American's expect an honest, open debate.

Rahm Emanuel must have been Joe's debate sparing partner....

funny, just like with Charley Sheen's meltdown. "Winning" means being a jackass.

Bill Fairfax VA

Kessler's article is as flawed as Rubin's. All it shows is that some State Dept official received request for additional security from Benghazi Consulate. It does not indicate at what level this request was handled and if it was passed up chain of command for final decision.

Often times, these decisions are handled by a specific office in the State Department. If it was considered relatively routine, then it may not have been submitted to higher ups. Many other embassies and consulates around the worked may have made similar requests due to security concerns and threats received. At this point, Kessler and Rubin are just speculating here.

To accuse Biden of false statement here is simply not proven or even fair.

If anyone saying Biden kicked Ryan's ass last night read the fact checkers analysis of the debate they would see Biden lied pretty much the same amount Ryan did. The entire thing about Libya coming out of Biden's mouth was completely incorrect. Oh and that little fact about how Obama saved the auto industry is misleading as well. That sanction started with Bush and Obama just expanded it. So he doesn't take complete credit for that. And I don't even know how you can make a comparison between how Romney acted in the Presidential debate, which I found was perfectly acceptable, and Biden's complete lack of respect while Ryan spoke laughing at him. If Biden would have just shook his head or something like that I would find that acceptable. But laughing, smiling, and constantly interrupting him is unacceptable from a Vice President. Ryan I thought did pretty well for his very first debate but I found that he didn't give much detail in his responses and backpedaled on some of his answers. I didn't learn much about his stances and I didn't agree with a lot of the stuff he said. He held is own though and I thought it would be a lot worse then it was. I don't think either VP choice gave an amazing performance that will have any weight on the election.

I'm wondering where this Romney "surge" is that the punditocracy is so enthusiastic about. The Republican-leaning Rasmussen poll still has Obama ahead of Romney by 1% among likely voters. That may be a statistical tie for ONE day, but Rasmussen has been showing Obama slightly ahead for several days, now, and still has Obama at 51% job approval. Gallup had him at 52% approval yesterday and above 50% for the past several days following what supposedly was Romney's big debate win.

Back when Obama's job approval was hovering around 45%, the pundits were all wisely noting that an incumbent president was likely to lose if his approval is in the '40s but almost certain to win with approval ratings above 50%. For some strange reason, the pundits have lost interest in this standard for reelection now that Obama has been exceeding it.

Hey Frankie #1.128, Last nights debate - CBS Polls: Biden won by 95.5% to RyRand's 4.5% !!!!

This is a correction !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, Bozo the Biden delivered the expected Hillaryous laughs last night!!!

Agreed, Joe in Albany.

Biden came off as, well entertaing, but no substance. Ryan looked all business and determination.

I think Paul won, hands down.

Wet Willy

Be sure to check out SNL this coming Saturday. If you think they've had great skits mocking Obama and Romney, old crazy smirking Joe has just provided them with the skit of the season.

And Biden will probably get a laugh out of it. Chris Matthews and Al Sharpton love to play clips of SNL skits mocking themselves. Progressives, unlike radical right wingers, have enough sense of humor that they can laugh at jokes made at their own expense.

And the lefties think Biden won the debate. Go figure.

Well, 50% of undecided voters thought Biden won, too, versus 31% who thought Ryan won. Does that mean 50% of undecided voters are lefties?

Thank you Mr. Biden.

Yes. That says it all for me. Thank you Mr. Vice President. Job well done!

Obama/Biden 2012

The whole GOP/TP argument about last night is not about substance it is about How Biden Smiles to much. That is there case. Joe did this, Joe did that, How about Joe Spanked a Lying 40 year old man...... How about Joe looked like a middle class Citizen and Lyin looked like a snake oil salesman.

Ok...we must be looking at different CBS News polls then. Here's the one I saw and the one that is being reported on pretty much everywhere:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-57531059/poll-biden-takes-debate-over-ryan-uncommitted-voters-say/

I'm just trying to find the poll you are referencing which has essentially 95.5-4.5.

Biden is a liar. Here is the proof:

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/history_lesson/2008/08/the_write_stuff.html?fb_ref=sm_fb_plugin_activity

Vice President Biden was condescending and arrogant.

... and Ryan is a spoiled selfish arrogant brat. He got schooled and you RWNJs know it.

It sure sucks when the Dems show their resolve. You so called Conservative hate it. Too bad.

Frank, Go to - CBS polling vote VP debate, that's how I got my Vote in, see you at the Pub !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is how the right saw the debate:

Paul Ryan was very well spoken, he explained things very well and told us what they want to do if they win. However his wonderful explanations were interrupted constantly by Joe Biden and the mediator. Joe also was laughing about how poor the economy is doing and the low unemployment. Than man is disgusting, how could he laugh at those terrible statistics.

Their view on the Presidential debate:

Romney was well spoken and spoke nothing but the truth, there were times when Obama tried to interrupt but Romney held his own. When Obama was talking and making up lies Romney would have to interrupt him all the time to defend himself and set the record straight.

The REAL world:

Joe Biden was laughing at all of Ryan's lies, he was laughing out of disbelief and everyone outside of the right knows that and saw it that way. All fact checks I've seen today showed that once again Ryan lied his a$$ off, most of Bidens statements were true or half true. Ryan's "explanations" were nothing but talking in circles. he gave no details, no plans, no ideas and he didn't and couldn't defend his and Romneys constant flip flopping. When asked how they would pay for the tax cuts all he said was close loopholes(just not the important ones), and that more jobs would bring in more money. More jobs are not guaranteed.

Basically for the right is was ok for Romney to interrupt Obama all the time, but not OK for Biden to interrupt Ryan's long winded repetitious statements? Ryan used a lot of words and said nothing. The reason the right loves this guy is because their conservative hate filled media has them brainwashed into thinking that Ryan is a genius, and a golden boy(much like they made out Palin to be). If you saw Ryan and those around him, in person you would think different.

My view of the right is a bully, a bully that when people start to give back what he's been giving, he runs and cries saying that everyone is out to get him.

Biden did Great and Mr. Munster did as expected.

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

I'm trying to figure out why Lyin Ryan demanded to be called Mr. instead of his title "Congressman"?

This is the kind of thought process that got OJ off. "If it doesnt fit, you must aquit!"

Rhymes really shouldnt be that powerful. I suppose in a party that values "heart" over "head", the priorities for presenting an argument will reflect that.

2012 PRESIDENTIAL CHAMPIONSHIP

The reigning champions fighting out of the "HOAX AND CHAINS" corner:
Barack Hussein "YOU DIDN'T BUILD THAT" Obama and
Joe"FOOT IN MOUTH" Biden

The challengers fighting out of the "LET'S SAVE AMERICA" corner:
Mitt "MADE IN AMERICA" Romney and
Paul "THE BUDGETNATOR" Ryan

Let's get ready to rumbleeeeeeeeeee................

ROUND 1- Romney came out swinging and caught Obama by surprise. Obama took a right to the "24 MILLION UN/UNDER EMPLOYED" and a left to "SOLYNDRA", Romney followed that up with a right uppercut to the "$16 TRILLION DEBT". Dazed at this point, Obama employed the rope-a-dope defense to no avail. Romney proceeded to pummel Obama into a "NEVER-ENDING RECESSION"

Romney/Ryan- 1
Obama/Biden- 0

Round 2- Ryan and Biden went toe to toe. Ryan threw many jabs but Biden was able the fend them off. Why? because it's only 3 letters- "J-A-B-S", jabs. Oh! wait, is that 4 letters, awwwww too late. Biden fell to the ropes and tried to use his I'm-a-dope strategy, At this point, Biden got "BURRIED FOR THE LAST 4 ROUNDS" and Ryan proceeded to put him "BACK IN CHAINS".

Romney/Ryan- 2
Obama/Biden- 0,nada

to be continued............................................

I think Biden won this one. I am independant and not sure at this point who to vote for but in this debate, to me, it was obvious Biden KNEW what he was talking about,

No thanks Biden and I will not be joining Obamacorps for another 4 more hellish years...

Surrendering my Brain and paycheck at the door then taking a seat to the left is not a good choice for me.

Biden=Obnoxious, Rude, Condescending, Arrogant and his Smiling Joker Face made me sick to my stomach 8( how many times did that douchebag interrupt Ryan....

I mean come on as a middle class tax payer here in California we are being crushed by the Liberal Democrats and Unions who want to raise taxes to the highest levels in the Nation because they are spending whores.

Biden's demeanor reminded me of that scene in Despicable Me where the lil girl( Obama) fails to win the Fluffy Unicorn..And then Biden whips out the blaster and.....well he gets the Unicorn and the lil girl sez...Now let's go destroy another game...

The difference being that scene was cute and charming...

Biden was rude and boorish..

Red_Cloud

and lyin ryan acted like a snot nosed brat, which he is.

Amazing how bias works in the human brain. I take it you thought Biden was statesmen-like and gentlemanly?

No one wins in this election ... least of all the American people. We have fools running for both sides.

"For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to wise, they became fools." Romans 1:21-22

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

Bill Maher summed the debate up superbly last night in a Tweet;

Hello 9-1-1? There is an old man beating a child on my TV! Lmao

oh, that is funny!

shaak322

Kessler's article is as flawed as Rubin's. All it shows is that some State Dept official received request for additional security from Benghazi Consulate.

It turns out that there WAS no request for increased security at the Benghazi consulate. The request was for security was for the embassy in Tripoli, as reported here:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/election-2012/wp/2012/10/12/white-house-biden-was-speaking-for-himself-obama-on-libya/?wprss=rss_campaigns&tid=pp_widget

But the Republicans won't let the facts stand in the way of their craven attempt to exploit the death of an American ambassador with progressive internationalist views whose death they couldn't care less about.

P.A....dangit...I can't find it. Every result I get when I google that gives me that same CBS News poll showing undecided voters at 51-34 or something like that.

Was it one of those poll questions embedded in an article where you click the radio button and see the results?

Interesting, as I read thought the miles of posts. Obvious facts become very obvious.

very few watched the debates with an objective mind. You wanted to hear what you wanted to hear and ignored what you didn't want.

Both sides took obvious "liberties". Fact checkers (last check) had Biden taking a slight lead on the exaggerated facts.

Seriously, people... this is NOT a popularity contest. This is about you, your children, your grand children and all of your community, and well beyond.

We, as voters are tasked with finding the best possible person to hold the position of the Executive Branch (for minimum of 4 years).

Their ability, in that position is the key.

Points to remember:

No President can change, write, rewrite any laws... that is the job of Congress.

No President can appoint nor dismiss anyone outside his cabinet, and even the cabinet is subject to Congress approval (exception is when Congress is in recess).

Historically, this country has always benefited when the President had opposition, politically, to Congress. but historically that has been thanks to both sides working together in a diplomatic fashion.

End results, all politicians have been lying. Democrats and Republicans alike... and by ignoring and NOT holding your candidates accountable to being honest, what message are you sending the youth?

I with Obama and Biden ... not only are they going to cut Medicare by $715 billion but they're going to STOP THE UNFUNDED Rx PLAN FOR SENIORS

I am with Obama and Biden because I am sick to death of all these Old People getting everthing. Finally someone who will stand up and tell all these Old People "you can't have it for free" You can't live forever and we're not going to go Bankrupt trying to help you hang on for another 10 years.

Attn: All Two-Bit Democrat Liars-----

Romney did not interrupt Barack Obama over and over again in the last debate like Joe Biden did last night. He waited his turn and then attacked the president after he had said his piece.

Stupid Democrats...try to comprehend: Romney looked at the president while the president spoke, he didn't speak, i.e., mouth moving. Different. Make sense now?

Democrats think they can get away with lying about even recent history, as in last week. It's funny the alternative universe these scum live in.

Fear tactics are all this administration and the DNC have to rely on. Read

First off in the same manner Bidden put it last night,,, I am sick and tired of you people saying the Democrats represent to middle class. I my dear sirs am middle class and he and his idiot boss DOES NOT represent me or my wants and needs.

The only middle class that the Democrats represent is those with their heads up Bidden and Obama's @ss. Bidden is a pampas @ss and a very rude and arrogant moron.

He is a disgrace to our form of government and an embarrassment to our school systems with his stupid lack of knowledge.

I am also sick and tired of them claiming they save the auto industry and Romney wanted the industry to go bankrupt. As I recall they did go bankrupt so get off it and Obama you did nothing special except give the one who caused the trouble with the industry in the first place part ownership in the companies. That right the UAW. And please explain to me how selling one of the car manufacturers is saving the "American" car companies? Chrysler is now a foreign manufacturer thanks to our idiot president and VP.

What an absolute lack of leadership on the Democrats part!

Just the facts folks! From factcheck.org

The Biden-Ryan debate was marked by some spirited claims that didn’t always match the facts.

• Ryan said Obama’s proposal to let tax rates rise for high-income individuals would “tax about 53 percent of small-business income.” Wrong. Ryan is counting giant hedge funds and thousands of other multimillion-dollar enterprises as “small” businesses.
• Biden exaggerated when he said House Republicans cut funding for embassy security by $300 million. The amount approved for fiscal year 2012 was $264 million less than requested, and covers construction and maintenance, not just security.
• Ryan was wrong when he said a rise in the jobless rate in Biden’s hometown was “how it’s going all around America.” The rate nationally has sunk back to where it was when Obama took office. And in Ryan’s hometown, it’s more than 4 percentage points lower that it was at the start of Obama’s term.
• Biden seemed to question Ryan’s assertion that administration officials called Syrian President Bashar Assad “a reformer” even when he was killing his own civilian countrymen. Ryan was right. Early in the bloody Syrian uprising Hillary Clinton called Assad a “different leader” who many in Congress believe is “a reformer.”
• Ryan claimed the Obama administration spent stimulus money on “electric cars in Finland.” Not true. Although the cars have been assembled in Finland, the money went for work in the United States.
• Biden quoted Romney as saying that he would not “move heaven and earth” to get Osama bin Laden. What Romney said was that he’d go after other terrorists as well.
• Ryan misquoted a Medicare official as saying “one out of six hospitals and nursing homes are going to go out of business” as a result of the Affordable Care Act. Not quite. The official said that many could become “unprofitable,” and the the situation could be monitored to head off bad outcomes.
• Ryan claimed that the ACA contains “taxpayer funding” of abortion. In fact the law provides no direct funding of abortion except in cases of rape or incest or to save the mother’s life. And it’s a matter of interpretation whether subsidized private insurance would amount to indirect federal support for abortion.
• Ryan was off base when he said of a cost-saving panel created by the Affordable Care Act, “not one of them even has to have medical training.” Actually, the board must include physicians and other health care professionals among its members.

Ryan at one point ground out a collection of shopworn misstatements about the health care law that we’ve had to rebut time and again, claiming “20 million people … are projected to lose their health insurance” (not true), that premiums have gone up $3,000 (no, they haven’t) and that 7.4 million seniors “are going to lose” Medicare Advantage plans (maybe, but they’d still be covered by traditional Medicare).

Clearly Joe Biden won this debate: so the score is even - actually sort of how can you win with lies but win because of style?

Obama/Biden 2012

Bill Fairfax VA

How does proposed budget for 2014 affect security cuts made in 2012, 2013 budgets? Was Kessler just too bleery-eyed at 2am to do adequate research here?

In 2011, House Republicans cut $128 million from what State Dept asked for in its budget request for security.

In 2012, House Republicans cut $331 million from what State Dept. asked for in its budget request for security. The Senate restored $88 million of these cuts in the budget reconciliation process.

These are the cuts Biden referred to. That Kessler changes the basis of Biden's point is bad journalism.

Samuelson did the same thing yesterday citing $500 billion in tax cuts for the rich as the basis for his analysis. Really? It was $500 billion in Romney's 20% tax cuts for ALL Americans that Obama referred to.

When you cite sources that distort the truth, one is left to wonder to what length the righties of this country will go to in order to get their guy Romney elected.

Hey Frank "Grimey" Grimes, the "Birds of Baltimore" are still flying ! Those who are counting on a Detroit vs New York matchup had better wait until the fat lady sings.

You are right about the debate, it was close. Biden might be considered to win on style but who knew that being a totally rude, interrupting, flaming a$$hole would win him anything more than a supersize tube of Preparation H ... to be spread "liberally" all over his body. Truly, Joe is a masterdebater !! LOL !!!

But old Joe did not take long to lie about intelligence reports from Libya ! Then he quickly went elsewhere with his ramblings.

Finally, a tough-guy Dem gets up there and expresses all the frustration and exasperation the base has been feeling after listening to the Romney/Ryan ticket pander and spew its lies and nonsense for months. Surprise! Dems can take the offensive, in spite of being more polite and caring about our fellow human beings. I guess those tighty righties can't stand a taste of their own medicine. You don't win a debate based on smiles and sighs. You win it based on facts. Biden clearly won.

jim#'s...the birds are hanging in there. Gonna be a tough one tonight against Sabathia, but every time I think the O's are done, they come through!!!

O-R-I-O-L-E-S!!!!!!

Did anyone notice that when Biden brought up the 47% video, and Ryan said something like, "We all say things that don't come out like we intend it to," that EVERYONE attending the debate burst out in laughter?? That was GREAT and will not bode well for Ryan's performance!

Uncle joe is still a bafoon, he and obama are still anti-American, haters of freedom.

Bidens smile was creepy. Ryan looked like a Thunderbird puppet.

Who cares who won the debate. It's who's best to turn the economy around and protect our Nation and patriots around the world. Obama hasn't a clue. It's always too little too late. as for Biden saying Iran isn't close to nuclear capability....oh, so we wait until they are CLOSER and then we'll stop them! yer, I think I'll hear a boom and then know it's too late! and as for stating 2014 our troops will be out of Afgan....Ryan was right, it has to be conditional! You can not give the terrorists information like that. They'll wait and plan and then attack in 2014. What's he thinking!

If Obama and Biden have such great ideas and plans why aren't they using them now? why aren't they working? All this about Romney paying 14% raxes, so what!!! I would too! Wouldn't you want to save money! anyway, he gives 30% of his income to charity!!! who does that? because I don't.

Where I live the unemployment is 9.2% and rising. Gas prices $3.79 and rising....point being it's hard getting by so we need help!

Obama gets another 4 years and we'll get another war. Scary.

Oh, and Biden, NOT raising taxes isn't a tax cut! what a nipple!

Romney/Ryan. For real Americans!

Did anyone notice that when Biden brought up the 47% video, and Ryan said something like, "We all say things that don't come out like we intend it to," that EVERYONE attending the debate burst out in laughter?? That was GREAT and will not bode well for Ryan's performance!

How will that not bode well for Ryan's performance? The people weren't laughing because he said something stupid, like you're used to with Biden. They were laughing because they recognized it was a jab at Biden and that the jab was spot on. Biden puts his foot in his mouth almost every single time he speaks.

I think Joe Biden hurt Obama. He claim that we have the intelligence to inform us that the Iranian don't have the capability to arm a Nuclear war head. on the other hand he said that their Intelligence told them what happen in Libya. so who is lying here. he forgot that the Libya terrorist attack is being investigated. Obama said it was the video and Biden made a mistake last night.

Aww, did widdle joey come out and fight the really smart school yard nerds for his widdle pwesidwent?

Not really, he acted like a leftist bafoon. Worse, he embarrased his office. However, this is what the left wanted, so joey did it. The left has nothing to run on, no budget, no plan, no foreign policy, nothing but an affirmative action leftist stooge and his lifer senator from pennsalvania. This has axelrodless written all over it.

Hey david, worked in the illinois senate race, worked in the US Senate race, isn't working this time. You need a new strategy -- something called a plan for the country.

You leftists are going to wake up November 5th and wonder what truck ran you over. It's the american people -- the majority which do not share your morales, ethics or values.

bayllie they did actually but it was only because the Republicans made changes knowing that the Democrats would never vote for them. It's the oldest gimmick in the playbook.

Obama's 2013 budget proposal was about 2000 pages. House Republicans submitted their own 52 page bill that they called 'The Obama Budget" and claimed is was just like Obama's budget....except anyone who can do simple math can see that it was about 1948 pages shorter so hardly the same.

Actually you are incorrect about your events. First the federal budget doesn’t get enacted the way other laws do. The president submits his budget request to Congress early in the year. That document is nothing really more than symbolic, a presidential "wish list", but it also can give Congress some sort of framework. The House and Senate have budget committees tasked with creating concurrent budget resolutions, using the president’s budget only if they wish to, as a guide. Congress then must vote on their Resolutions. The President never signs a passed budget resolution and Congress can throw the President's Budget in the trash without even viewing it if they wish to do so.

Now, two of Obama's requests withing his budget or wish list were put before the floor of Congress, verbatim. Obama put forward a proposal in his wish list that included the largest tax increase in history but proposed no spending cuts. FY 2012 budget went down 97-0 in the Senate and his FY 2013 budget went down 414-0 in the House.

Democrats stated they voted against the President's request because a plan superseded by another deficit reduction plan already in the Senate committee that the Senate came up with on their own. Republicans say they demanded a vote on his request because they wanted to show that the Democrats don't want to support any plan for deficit reductions.

Nobody changed anything, they just voted on one request in the President's budget plan, which was nothing more than a ceremonial vote.

You leftists are going to wake up November 5th and wonder what truck ran you over. It's the american people -- the majority which do not share your morales, ethics or values.

MR Numbers - you go ahead and vote on November 4th (which is Sunday). I am going to wake up on November 7th with Obama winning the presidency.

Obama/Biden 2012

Hello folks, if you want to know why there probably won't be any elections this year, this may be the single most important article you have read in your life.

Syria, Turkey, Israel and a Greater Middle East Energy War – by F. William Engdahl

Source: Veterans Today
October 11, 2012

Pipeline Roulette

On October 3, 2012 the Turkish military launched repeated mortar shellings inside Syrian territory.

The military action, which was used by the Turkish military, conveniently, to establish a ten-kilometer wide no-man’s land “buffer zone” inside Syria, was in response to the alleged killing by Syrian armed forces of several Turkish civilians along the border.

There is widespread speculation that the one Syrian mortar that killed five Turkish civilians well might have been fired by Turkish-backed opposition forces intent on giving Turkey a pretext to move militarily, in military intelligence jargon, a ‘false flag’ operation.[i]

Turkey’s Muslim Brotherhood-friendly Foreign Minister, the inscrutable Ahmet Davutoglu, is the government’s main architect of Turkey’s self-defeating strategy of toppling its former ally Bashar Al-Assad in Syria.[ii]

According to one report since 2006 under the government of Islamist Sunni Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and his pro-Brotherhood AKP party, Turkey has become a new center for the Global Muslim Brotherhood.[iii] A well-informed Istanbul source relates the report that before the last Turkish elections, Erdogan’s AKP received a “donation” of $10 billion from the Saudi monarchy, the heart of world jihadist Salafism under the strict fundamentalist cloak of Wahabism. [iv]

Since the 1950’s when the CIA brought leading members in exile of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood to Saudi Arabia there has been a fusion between the Saudi brand of Wahabism and the aggressive jihadist fundamentalism of the Brotherhood.[v]

The Turkish response to the single Syrian mortar shell, which was met with an immediate Syrian apology for the incident, borders on a full-scale war between two nations which until last year were historically, culturally, economically and even in religious terms, closest of allies.

That war danger is ever more serious. Turkey is a full member of NATO whose charter explicitly states, an attack against one NATO state is an attack against all. The fact that nuclear-armed Russia and China both have made defense of the Syrian Bashar al-Assad regime a strategic priority puts the specter of a World War closer than most of us would like to imagine.

In a December 2011 analysis of the competing forces in the region, former CIA analyst Philip Giraldimade the following prescient observation:

NATO – Has it become a geopolitical energy army now?

NATO is already clandestinely engaged in the Syrian conflict, with Turkey taking the lead as U.S. proxy. Ankara’s foreign minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, has openly admitted that his country is prepared to invade as soon as there is agreement among the Western allies to do so.

The intervention would be based on humanitarian principles, to defend the civilian population based on the “responsibility to protect” doctrine that was invoked to justify Libya. Turkish sources suggest that intervention would start with creation of a buffer zone along the Turkish-Syrian border and then be expanded. Aleppo, Syria’s largest and most cosmopolitan city, would be the crown jewel targeted by liberation forces.

Unmarked NATO warplanes are arriving at Turkish military bases close to Iskenderum on the Syrian border, delivering weapons from the late Muammar Gaddafi’s arsenals as well as volunteers from the Libyan Transitional National Council who are experienced in pitting local volunteers against trained soldiers, a skill they acquired confronting Gaddafi’s army.

Iskenderum is also the seat of the Free Syrian Army, the armed wing of the Syrian National Council. French and British special forces trainers are on the ground, assisting the Syrian rebels while the CIA and U.S. Spec Ops are providing communications equipment and intelligence to assist the rebel cause, enabling the fighters to avoid concentrations of Syrian soldiers. [vi]

____________________________________

Israel mobile artillery on the move during exercise

Little noted was the fact that at the same day as Turkey launched her over-proportional response in the form of a military attack on Syrian territory, one which was still ongoing as of this writing, the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) undertook what was apparently an action to divert Syria’s attention from Turkey and to create the horror scenario of a two-front war just as Germany faced in two world wars.

The IDF made a significant troop buildup on the strategic Golan Heights bordering the two countries, which, since Israel took it in the 1967 war, has been an area of no tension.[vii]

The unfolding new phase of direct foreign military intervention by Turkey, supported de facto by Israel’s right-wing Netanyahu regime, curiously enough follows to the letter a scenario outlined by a prominent Washington neo-conservative think tank, the Brookings Institution.

In their March 2012 strategy white paper, Saving Syria: Assessing Options for Regime Change, Brookings geo-political strategists laid forth a plan to misuse so-called humanitarian concern over civilian deaths, as in Libya in 2011, to justify an aggressive military intervention into Syria, something not done before this.[viii]

The Brookings report states the following scenario:

Israel could posture forces on or near the Golan Heights and, in so doing, might divert regime forces from suppressing the opposition. This posture may conjure fears in the Assad regime of a multi-front war, particularly if Turkey is willing to do the same on its border and if the Syrian opposition is being fed a steady diet of arms and training.[ix]

This seems to be precisely what is unfolding in the early days of October 2012. The authors of the Brookings report are tied to some of the more prominent neo-conservative warhawks behind the Bush-Cheney war on Iraq.

Their sponsor, the Saban Center for Middle East Policy, includes current foreign policy advisers to Republican right-wing candidate Mitt Romney, the open favorite candidate of Israel’s Netanyahu.

Haim Saban – A lot to smile about

The Brookings Saban Center for Middle East Policy which issued the report, is the creation of a major donation from Haim Saban, an Israeli-American media billionaire who also owns the huge German Pro7 media giant.

Haim Saban is open about his aim to promote specific Israeli interests with his philanthropy. The New York Timesonce called Saban, “a tireless cheerleader for Israel.”

Saban told the same newspaper in an interview in 2004, “I’m a one-issue guy and my issue is Israel.” [x] The scholars at Saban as well as its board have a clear neo-conservative and Likud party bias.

They include, past or present, Shlomo Yanai, former head of military planning, Israel Defense Forces; Martin Indyk, former US Ambassador to Israel and founder of the pro-Israel Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP), a major Likud policy lobby in Washington.

Visiting fellows have included Avi Dicter, former head of Israel’s Shin Bet; Yosef Kupperwasser, former Head, Research Department, Israeli Defense Force’s Directorate of Military Intelligence.

Resident scholars also include Bruce Riedel, a 30 year CIA Middle East expert and Obama Afghan adviser; [xi] Kenneth Pollack, another former CIA Middle East expert who was indicted in an Israel espionage scandal when he was a national security official with the Bush Administration. [xii]

Why would Israel want to get rid of the “enemy she knows,” Bashar al-Assad, for a regime controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood? Then Israel’s security would seemingly be threatened by the emergence of hard-line Muslim Brotherhood regimes in Egypt to her south and Syria to her North, perhaps soon also in Jordan.

The geopolitical dimension

Will the little people fight and die over oil for the big people?

The significant question to be asked at this point is what could bind Israel, Turkey, Qatar in a form of unholy alliance on the one side, and Assad’s Syria, Iran, Russia and China on the other side, in such deadly confrontation over the political future of Syria? One answer is energy geopolitics.

What has yet to be fully appreciated in geopolitical assessments of the Middle East is the dramatically rising importance of the control of natural gas to the future of not only Middle East gas producing countries, but also of the EU and Eurasia including Russia as producer and China as consumer.

Natural gas is rapidly becoming the “clean energy” of choice to replace coal and nuclear electric generation across the European Union, most especially since Germany’s decision to phase out nuclear after the Fukushima disaster. Gas is regarded as far more “environmentally friendly” in terms of its so-called “carbon footprint.”

The only realistic way EU governments, from Germany to France to Italy to Spain, will be able to meet EU mandated CO2 reduction targets by 2020 is a major shift to burning gas instead of coal. Gas reduces CO2 emissions by 50-60% over coal.[xiii]

Given that the economic cost of using gas instead of wind or other alternative energy forms is dramatically lower, gas is rapidly becoming the energy of demand for the EU, the biggest emerging gas market in the world.

Huge gas resource discoveries in Israel, in Qatar and in Syria combined with the emergence of the EU as the world’s potentially largest natural gas consumer, combine to create the seeds of the present geopolitical clash over the Assad regime.

_______________________

Syria-Iran-Iraq Gas pipeline

Is our navy fighting for oil interests?

In July 2011, as the NATO and Gulf states’ destabilization operations against Assad in Syria were in full swing, the governments of Syria, Iran and Iraq signed an historic gas pipeline energy agreement which went largely unnoticed amid CNN reports of the Syrian unrest.

The pipeline, envisioned to cost $10 billion and take three years to complete, would run from the Iranian Port Assalouyeh near the South Pars gas field in the Persian Gulf, to Damascus in Syria via Iraq territory. Iran ultimately plans then to extend the pipeline from Damascus to Lebanon’s Mediterranean port where it would be delivered to EU markets. Syria would buy Iranian gas along with a current Iraqi agreement to buy Iranian gas from Iran’s part of South Pars field.

South Pars, whose gas reserves lie in a huge field that is divided between Qatar and Iran in the Gulf, is believed to be the world’s largest single gas field. [xiv] De facto it would be a Shi’ite gas pipeline from Shi’ite Iran via Shi’ite-majority Iraq onto Shi’ite-friendly Alawite Al-Assad’s Syria.

Iran and Qatar – head to head – but with Qatar having big brother

Adding to the geopolitical drama is the fact that the South Pars gas find lies smack in the middle of the territorial divide in the Persian Gulf between Shi’ite Iran and the Sunni Salafist Qatar.

Qatar also just happens to be a command hub for the Pentagon’s US Central Command, headquarters of United States Air Forces Central, No. 83 Expeditionary Air Group RAF, and the 379th Air Expeditionary Wing of the USAF.

In brief Qatar, in addition to owning and hosting the anti-Al-Assad TV station Al-Jazeera, which beams anti-Syria propaganda across the Arab world, Qatar is tightly linked to the US and NATO military presence in the Gulf.

Qatar apparently has other plans with their share of the South Pars field than joining up with Iran, Syria and Iraq to pool efforts.

Qatar has no interest in the success of the Iran-Iraq-Syria gas pipeline, which would be entirely independent of Qatar or Turkey transit routes to the opening EU markets.

In fact it is doing everything possible to sabotage it, up to and including arming Syria’s rag-tag “opposition” fighters, many of them Jihadists sent in from other countries including Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Libya.

Further adding to Qatar’s determination to destroy the Syria-Iran-Iraq gas cooperation is the discovery in August 2011 by Syrian exploration companies of a huge new gas field in Qara near the border with Lebanon and near to the Russian-leased Naval port of Tarsus on the Syrian Mediterranean.[xv]

Pepe Escobar

Any export of Syrian or Iranian gas to the EU would go through the Russian-tied port of Tarsus. According to informed Algerian sources, the new Syrian gas discoveries, though the Damascus government is downplaying it, are believed to equal or exceed those of Qatar.

As Asia Times’ knowledgeable analyst Pepe Escobar pointed out in a recent piece, Qatar’s scheme calls for export of its huge gas reserves via Jordan’s Gulf of Aqaba, a country where a Muslim Brotherhood threat to the dictatorship of the King is also threatening.

The Emir of Qatar has apparently cut a deal with the Muslim Brotherhood in which he backs their international expansion in return for a pact of peace at home in Qatar.

A Muslim Brotherhood regime in Jordan and also in Syria, backed by Qatar, would change the entire geopolitics of the world gas market suddenly and decisively in Qatar’s favor and to the disadvantage of Russia, Syria, Iran and Iraq. [xvi] That would also be a staggering negative blow to China.

As Escobar points out,

“it’s clear what Qatar is aiming at: to kill the US$10 billion Iran-Iraq-Syria gas pipeline, a deal that was clinched even as the Syria uprising was already underway. Here we see Qatar in direct competition with both Iran (as a producer) and Syria (as a destination), and to a lesser extent, Iraq (as a transit country). It’s useful to remember that Tehran and Baghdad are adamantly against regime change in Damascus.”

He adds, “if there’s regime change in Syria – helped by the Qatari-proposed invasion – things get much easier in Pipelineistan terms. A more than probable Muslim Brotherhood (MB) post-Assad regime would more than welcome a Qatari pipeline. And that would make an extension to Turkey much easier.” [xvii]

_____________________________

The Israeli Gas dilemma

Was the peak oil hype nothing more than a price rigging psy ops?

Further complicating the entire picture is the recent discovery of huge offshore Israeli natural gas resources.

The Tamar natural gas field off the coast of northern Israel is expected to begin yielding gas for Israel’s use in late 2012. The game-changer was a dramatic discovery in late 2010 of an enormous natural gas field offshore of Israel in what geologists call the Levant or Levantine Basin.

In October 2010 Israel discovered a massive “super-giant” gas field offshore in what it declares is its Exclusive Economic Zone (EEZ). [xviii]

The find is some 84 miles west of the Haifa port and three miles deep. They named it Leviathan after the Biblical sea monster.

Three Israeli energy companies in cooperation with the Houston Texas Noble Energy announced initial estimates that the field contained 16 trillion cubic feet of gas—making it the world’s biggest deep-water gas find in a decade, adding more discredit to “peak oil” theories that the planet is about to see dramatic and permanent shortages of oil, gas and coal.

To put the number in perspective, that one gas field, Leviathan, would hold enough reserves to supply Israel’s gas needs for 100 years.[xix]

Energy self-sufficiency had eluded the state of Israel since its founding in 1948. Abundant oil and gas exploration had repeatedly been undertaken with meager result. Unlike its energy-rich Arab neighbors, Israel seemed out of luck.

Then in 2009 Israel’s Texas exploration partner, Noble Energy, discovered the Tamar field in the Levantine Basin some 50 miles west of Israel’s port of Haifa with an estimated 8.3 tcf (trillion cubic feet) of highest quality natural gas. Tamar was the world’s largest gas discovery in 2009.

Israel discovered huge gas in Levantine Basin with Noble Energy. Source: Noble Energy map

At the time, total Israeli gas reserves were estimated at only 1.5 tcf. Government estimates were that Israel’s sole operating field, Yam Tethys, which supplies about 70 percent of the country’s natural gas, would be depleted within three years.

With Tamar, prospects began to look considerably better. Then, just a year after Tamar, the same consortium led by Noble Energy struck the largest gas find in its decades-long history at Leviathan in the same Levantine geological basin. Present estimates are that the Leviathan field holds at least 17 tcf of gas. Israel went from a gas famine to feast in a matter of months.[xx]

Now Israel faces a strategic and very dangerous dilemma. Naturally Israel is none too excited to see al-Assad’s Syria, linked to Israel’s arch foe Iran and Iraq and Lebanon, out-compete an Israeli gas export to the EU markets. This could explain why Israel’s Netanyahu government has been messing inside Syria in the anti-al-Assad forces.

However, a Muslim Brotherhood rule in Syria led by the organization around Mohammad Shaqfah would confront Israel with far more hostile neighbors now that the Muslim Brotherhood coup by Egypt’s President Mohamed Morsi has put a hostile regime on Israel’s southern border.

Dalia Mogahed

It is no secret that there is enmity bordering on hate between Netanyahu and the Obama Administration. The Obama White House and US State Department openly back the Muslim Brotherhood regime changes in the Middle East.

Hillary Clinton’s meeting with Turkey’s Davutoglu in August this year was reportedly aimed at pushing Turkey to escalate its military intervention into Syria, but without direct US support owing to US election politics of wanting to avoid involvement in a new Middle East debacle.[xxi]

State Department Deputy Chief of Staff Huma Abedin has been accused by several Republican Congress Representatives of ties to organizations controlled by the Muslim Brotherhood.

Dalia Mogahed, Obama’s appointee to the Advisory Council on Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships, also a member of the US advisory council of the Department of Homeland Security, is openly linked to the Muslim Brotherhood and an open foe of Israel as well as calling for the toppling of Syria’s al-Assad. [xxii]

Obama’s Washington definitely seems to be backing the Muslim Brotherhood horse in the race for control of the gas flows of the Middle East.

__________________________________

And the Russian role

Washington is walking a temporary tightrope hoping to weaken al-Assad fatally while not appearing directly involved. Russia for its part is playing a life and death game for the future of its most effective geopolitical lever—its role as the leading natural gas supplier to the EU.

This year Russia’s state-owned Gazprom began delivery of Russian gas to northern Germany via Nord Stream gas pipeline under the Baltic Sea from a port near St. Petersburg.

Strategically vital now for the future role of Russia as an EU gas supplier, is its ability to play a strategic role in exploiting the new-found gas reserves of its former Cold war client state, Syria. Moscow has long been engaged in promoting its South Stream gas pipeline into Europe as an alternative to the Washington Nabucco pipeline which was designed to leave Moscow out in the cold. [xxiii]

Already Gazprom is the largest natural gas supplier to the EU. Gazprom with Nord Stream and other lines plans to increase its gas supply to Europe this year by 12% to 155 billion cubic meters. It now controls 25% of the total European gas market and aims to reach 30% with completion of South Stream and other projects.

Rainer Seele, chairman of Germany’s Wintershall, the Gazprom partner in Nord Stream, suggested the geopolitical thinking behind the decision to join South Stream:

“In the global race against Asian countries for raw materials, South Stream, like Nord Stream, will ensure access to energy resources which are vital to our economy.” But rather than Asia, the real focus of South Stream lies to the West.

The ongoing battle between Russia’s South Stream and the Washington-backed Nabucco is intensely geopolitical. The winner will hold a major advantage in the future political terrain of Europe”.[xxiv]

Erdogan – Knows Turkey is at the cross roads of history

Now a major new option of Syria as a major source for Russian-managed gas flows to the EU has emerged. If al-Assad survives, Russia will be in the position as savior to play a decisive role in developing and exploiting the Syrian gas.

Israel, where Russia also has major cards to play, could theoretically shift to back a Russian-Syrian-Iraqi-Iran gas consortium were Israel and Iran to reach some modus vivendi on the nuclear and other issues, not impossible were the political constellation in Israel to change after the coming elections.

Turkey, which is presently in a deep internal battle between Davutoglu and President Gül on the one side and Erdogan on the other, is dependent on Russia’s Gazprom for some 40% of gas to its industry.

Were Davutoglu and his faction to lose, Turkey could play a far more constructive role in the region as transit country for Syrian and Iranian gas.

The battle for the future control of Syria is at the heart of this enormous geopolitical war and tug of war. Its resolution will have enormous consequences for either world peace or endless war and conflict and slaughter.

NATO member Turkey is playing with fire as is Qatar’s Emir, along with Israel’s Netanyahu and NATO members France and USA. Natural gas is the flammable ingredient that is fueling this insane scramble for energy in the region.

You want to be respectful of the office of the Vice-President, you want to be obeisant of an obviously old man, but it must be a strain to tolerate the antics of an elderly person that is clearly quite diminished when it comes to his mental faculties.

It was difficult to observe the decline of a man of Mr. Biden's stature from this once radiant mind to this now diminished soul we saw last night.

JAS, how do you think Paul Ryan feels to get your a** handed to you him a man with dementia?

You see, Smith, you need a real example to start a narrative. You can't just make a statement, especially one that has no reality, to attempt to make a point.

Biden won the debate. We know because all the right-wingers are complaining about his style, not his substance. Biden's passion was stuck straight down Ryan's quivering mouth from the start.

Every time I saw Ryan, he was either drinking water, backing up to start over, or looking like he was losing.

I think, in the end, the American public will trust the Democrats.

Just a matter of a few weeks to see.

Biden won the debate rather handily, because he showed that in the event that we were to lose our President, that he is well-qualified to assume a responsible leadership role. Ryan, on the other hand, proved beyond any reasonable doubt how unqualified that he would be to take over the reins of power in the same kind of emergency. Frankly I don't think that Paul Ryan would be qualified-to become the Mayor of Kenosha, as he is too green and still wet behind the ears, and far too driven by theory rather than by actual experience.

A rather stark difference between the two men is that one lets his religious beliefs drive a desire to force those beliefs onto others, while the other man, also consummate in Catholicism, would not attempt to impose his deeply-held convictions on other Americans who believe differently. I can't possibly vote for someone who wants to impose his religious beliefs on the all of the rest of us. Religious freedom also means freedom from the forced imposition of religious beliefs too.

How do we "create" jobs? Are jobs mainly created by demand growth, or are jobs magically created by wealthy people, since without enough people wealthy-enough to buy an employer's products, there will be no new jobs created.

Candidate Ryan mentions the US exporting products to customers overseas, yet fails to mention the effect of the value of the Dollar on our ability to grow our exports, and he also failed to discuss what effect that offshoring 10 million middle-class industrial jobs has had on our ability to export products to foreign buyers, since it is also much less-expensive for Asian and even African buyers to buy our Chinese-made products than it is to buy products made in America too. Which President made offshoring so many of our jobs possible? GW signed 30 of 32 free trade bills signed since the mid-1990s.

Which political party has stood in firm opposition to any attempt in Congress these past 4 years to impose expensive sanctions against US companies that would continue to try to offshore our jobs? The political party of Romney and Ryan, who could care less if all of our middle-class jobs are given to the Chinese.

The only way that we will ever create substantial numbers of new jobs here would be to re-impose protective tariffs on imported products and/or enact protective manufacturing content percentage laws like China and many of our other allies have. Let's say that 75% of the value of any product sold in the US has to be made in the US using US workers? China has a similar protective law, as does Saudi Arabia, as do many of our other allies and trading partners. They protect their own jobs, so why shouldn't we attempt to protect our own jobs, as without enough good-paying jobs here at home, there can be no job growth here at home, no matter how much money that we pay in-tribute to wealthy Americans.

Is it fair that someone earning $50K per year should pay double the income tax rate on their earnings as Mitt Romney pays on whatever portion of his income comes from taxable US sources, plus whatever foreign income sources that he chooses to report? Frankly, if the notion that cutting taxes on our wealthiest citizens actually created jobs, then we would have the strongest economy in the world today, as our top income tax rate is half of what it was from 1960 to 1980 when average Americans lived far better than they do today, and our capital gains tax rate is just 42.8% today of what it was when our economy was vibrant-enough to allow for a secure middle-class as well as make the American Dream possible for all of us.

All that Paul Ryan offered us last night was a continuation of the same top-down bankrupt ideas that have taken America from where it was 35 years ago, a nation with a strong and stable middle-class and a strong economy, to one where the bottom 70% of us in terms of annual income have seen our spending power decline by 40% since Ronald Reagan took office in 1981.

Sure, record fortunes have been "created" in-part due to financial deregulation and a tremendous lack of oversight, but that fact has not translated into the growth of financial security for our middle and working classes, which are increasingly seen as a drag on profit potential by a small minority of Americans, the same Americans who are desperately trying to convince us today to give them even more of our money than they have stolen from us already.

If you are one of those people who wants to arrest and put a stop to what has been a 32-year slide in middle and working-class buying power, then Barack Obama and Joe Biden firmly represent you and your dreams of middle-class income security. If you are one of a small minority of us who have an insatiable addiction to having more money than anyone else has, and you are willing to stomp all over anyone in your way to satisfy your addiction, then Paul Ryan and Mitt Romney share your dreams too.

Frankly, the words Freedom and Justice for ALL are not what Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan are all about, as their vision for our future includes grossly despising the half of adult Americans who currently earn less than $35K per year, many of whom work very hard for what they get paid. If the bottom 90% of us do not want our leadership and their friends to increasingly view our needs, hopes, and dreams as redundant and/or a drag on their profit potential, then we need to give Barack and Joe time to finish their progress toward that goal.

SMALL BUSINESS PAYS TAXES

Actually, according to Republicans, businesses do NOT pay taxes.....the customers do.

Customers built that.

Eddie Munster and Mittens say they aren't proposing a $5 trillion tax cut because they will (try to) close loop holes (to try) to pay for it? Come on guys, do we really need to go here and parse words to figure out if a tax cut is really a tax cut?

When someone in congress proposes a tax cut and they pay for it thru spending cuts does that mean there really isn't a tax cut?

Also, Romney is up to something with this" the rich will pay the same share" sales pitch. In other words, wait for the fine print. It would surely mean a tax cut for the rich, if the middle class get a tax cut (if the rich will "pay the same share as before").

There's a good article from Bloomberg yesterday going thru the numbers and they just don't add up. There's just not enough "loopholes" the rich have to pay for all of the cuts promised.

Lastly, Ronald Reagan lowered tax rates back in 1986. He paid for it by taking away the personal interest deduction. Personal interest paid on credit cards and car loans were deductible prior to the Reagan Tax Reform Act of 1986. When Reagan cut the top tax rate down to 28%, he also took away that deduction that middle class taxpayers benefited from most.

Just who do you trust?.....a guy who outsources jobs to China, with a car elevator at home, whose wife drives "several Cadillacs", or a guy who's been pulling for middle class taxpayers for 35 years?

GO NATS!

Currently, the people and companies paying the highest income taxes are small companies, exactly the ones needed to create jobs. My company has about 60 employees, earns about $250,000 per year in profit, and pay a federal corporate tax of 38% and a state tax of a little more that 10%.

So by reducing the tax rate to say 25% and reducing the loopholes, GE will would now pay 25% and my company would get a tax reduction of 13% which I could use to re-invest in my company.

First, both candidates want to lower the tax rates for corporations so, if you are talking corporate rates, you have no point to make.

If you're company is a "pass thru" (a S Corp or a LLC), you would include your companies net profit (after paying costs - including salaries) on your personal income tax return. If you make $250,000 or less, you are NOT affected by Obama's tax plan at all. BTW, if your income is over $250K, you STILL get the benefit on the first $250,000.

Remember?? 97% of all small businesses earn less than $250,000.

Ryan stated nothing , explained nothing, just got schooled by Biden. Robme/Lyin Ryan 2 empty suits , Bought and paid for by Rove/Koch and the wealthy elite

The Biggest Lie ever Told, The Super Rich and Wealthy need to be called Job Creators

Obama/Biden 2012 , Tell the super rich and wealthy to keep there filthy hands off our middle class money

Ryans Closing remarks to the camera , If that did not look like a typical lying politician pandering for votes. He turned off most Independent Voters with his straight faced lies and empty with facts promises

Ryan just might of cost them there chance by CLEARLY stating Romneys and his position on Abortion and Roe vs Wade. The Dems just need to show that 30 second bit over and over again

The only thing we are going to hear today about yesterdays debate is what fox says last night about it, The sheeple have NO original thoughts they are just FOXBOTS, Joe was Grinning to much, Joe did this, Joe is so un VP ish. How about Joe cleaned Ryans Clock

Obama/Biden 2012 Your Middle class way of life depends on it

Glad to hear Biden kicked butt! If the righties are whining then you know it's true.

David Walker -- Thanks for that most excellent post! Some of us missed the debate and it's always nice to read your thoughts on these things.

Bill in Fairfax -- Perhaps new eyeglasses will help you see better, but I doubt it.

Mind Games

Most Normal Republicans Turned Independent when the Tea Party/ American Taliban took over, and Trust me even Obama Supporters have been Baned for violating the Code of Conduct.

I still want someone to explain how our government is going to reduce the debt and create jobs if it can only run for 98 days if we increased the taxes of the people making over 250K by 100% or doubling them? So that people like Mitt would pay 28% instead of 14% which is still much less then the 35% he should be paying. What good and how much money is closing those loopholes/deductions going to produce?

"The rich pay the majority of the taxes according to them", meaning over 50% of that 1.2 trillion in revenue we take in every year or over 600 billion. ALL the loopholes AND deductions only add up to 1.1 trillion. They are not talking about getting rid of all those, just some they cannot even name. Many American families use those deductions to not pay any Federal income tax as the right love to say over and over again. Let me guess you are going to get rid of those deductions huh, so that those 47% "actually" pay taxes instead of being freeloaders?

How much can that add up to even if we did get rid of some of those loopholes and deductions, 600 billion or so? The same amount that Ryan laughed at and said would only run the government for 98 days right before that? How is that going to create jobs or reduce our deficit, that stuff they always cry about? That is not even factoring in the 20% across the board tax cut. How much is that going to reduce our revenue by off the bat? How about eliminating capital gain tax and the almost 600 billion it would cost us in revenue since people like Mitt make 80% or more of their income from investments? And then you expect Congress to make it up you do your job by closing loopholes that many American families use after you have already added to our debt making it EVEN WORSE.

Your 5 point plan is chit and only benefits the wealthy. The same people that ALREADY have all the money and do not need any more help. They are doing just f***ing fine. What happens if Mitt is forced to pay 35% or 28% instead of 14%? Why would that lose jobs since he puts how much of his earnings into overseas banks that does zero benefit for America at all? That does not have an effect on his business even if he still ran one since those are profits for HIM and not the company. He does not "create jobs" or invest unless he gets MORE or REWARDED. How can they be rewarded when they ALREADY have all the money? Where does that more come from? How can they get more when they already have it all? If they get more like they want that has the effect of reducing jobs since the money has to come from somewhere. Why else do you think you are doing the work of two or three people, but only getting paid for one? How else do you think they can make 1000 to 1 ratios? The money has to come from somewhere and that would be the 999 people that support that one person making 1000 times more. Once again 1000 to 1 ratios only allow 0.1% of the population to make that amount. Therefore, unless earnings/wealth ratios are controlled via taxes a capitalist system is worse and offers less opportunities then a socialist system does.

Canada has affordable national healthcare why is that? No insurance companies maybe to make middle man profits instead of that money actually going to help people? Why do I need a middle man that serves no purpose other then to benefit themselves? How many wars does Canada start? How many do they put on the credit card?

The only way we are ever going to get out of debt is to reduce the loopholes, raise taxes on everyone, put capital gains tax back to 35%, stop letting banks invest in the stock market, etc. It is going to take more then either side has proposed.

If you only talking points are about how rude or aggressive someone was then STFU and let the adults talk numbers. It is ok for Mitt to be aggressive, desperate, and rude, but you make fun of Joe for it? You defend Clint and his stuttering, but attack our President for doing the same. Like I said let the adults talk since your butt gets hurt over the slightest little bump.

(P.S. I never defended the President's debate or stuttering therefore I am not a hypocrite. In fact I stated that I would take someone that stutters over a liar any day. I might have voted for Clint had he ran for office, but something tells me he would end up like Reagan did :).)

When someone in congress proposes a tax cut and they pay for it thru spending cuts does that mean there really isn't a tax cut?

If the tax rate for the rich under Obama for the last four years is 36%, and the rate Romney and Ryan say they will have is 36%, please tell me how not raising taxes yet keeping them what they have been is a tax cut!

Biden won the debate. We know because all the right-wingers are complaining about his style, not his substance. Biden's passion was stuck straight down Ryan's quivering mouth from the start.

This is why I love Democrats! Biden did exactly what Democrats wanted him to do, attack, attack, attack. Yes Biden might have succeeded in charging the base (you know the ones who already are for Obama) but the polls show women hating Biden's behavior, and many independents also said they were turned off by it. Biden may have won the fight but lost the war. He turned off women and moderates, he gave Republicans plenty of ammo (already have a commercial out) and has shown Romney exactly the strategy that will be taken against him. The way I see it (and CNN) Ryan won.

All we see here are the usual political hacks and ideologues from both sides insisting their candidate won the debate. I would throw out the polls from both FOX and NBC and look towards a middle ground poll from CNN that essentially called it a tie.

This obviously won't satisfy either camp but is probably the reality that neither side is willing to accept.

Ryan said that there should be troop on the ground in Syria. IF YOU VOTE REPUBLICAN, YOUR CHILDREN WILL BE DRAFTED! Mitt Romney's policies will end Planned Parenthood. Women will be unable to get abortions. Romney and Ryan will destroy Social Security. The Republicans will find a way to make Syria another Iraq/Afghanistan. Obama is bringing all of our troops home from that region. Let him end the Republican craziness before more of our troops' lives are lost for nothing. Romney wanted to force the auto plants into bankruptcy. Luckily Obama saved them. The Republicans will force the entire country into bankruptcy instead.

Mitt is a flip-flopping twit.

1. The Anti-Christ (The Mormon book, The Pearl of Great Price, claims that all other Christian groups are "corrupt" and are an "abomination" in God's sight (Joseph Smith, 2:19). If given another chance, the Republicans led by this Anti-Christ will begin yet another war as they did in Iraq and Afghanistan which has resulted in the loss of thousands of young American lives.)

2. Mitt the Twitt is a draft dodger so he cannot be Commander-in-Chief. He ran away to France to avoid the draft.

3. Mitt the Twitt is really Mexican and should not be running for President of the United States. His father and grand-father were
born in Mexico. They fled there in order to upkeep their polygamous lifestyle. His great-grandfather still has arrest warrants out for him. Judith Freeman's great-grandfather, William Flake, and Miles Romney were arrested for polygamy in Arizona. Flake paid the $1000 to bail Romney out of jail. Romney skipped bail and as a result Flake spent six months in prison for it. These people have no morals.

I want to thank Martha Raddatz for her first and last time as moderator. Martha you did everything you could but it just wasn't enough. I want you to know Martha that I'm not angry or disappointed in you at all, yes you let Biden interrupt Ryan 82 times, as well as yourself interrupting 31 times (19 for Biden). Yes you gave Biden more time, yes you challenged Ryan 9 times compared with Bidens one, and yes your questions were obviously tilted and you proved why Obama was invited to your wedding.

So why is it I'm not mad at you Martha? Because you and Biden did exactly what we thought you would do and Americans saw it. Liberals will give you 5 stars which will further tarnish your standing, while conservatives just laugh at the pathetic performance we knew you would give. So long, and good luck with your "journalist" career as you may now be invited on the View, and David Letterman. You faced questions about your objectivity and answered very loudly that you are not objective and no one will care for your services again. Without you Biden might have been told to let Ryan answer instead you let Biden make a fool of himself and for that I say, Thanks.

Frank "Grimey" Grimes, Springfield, USA

P.A....dangit...I can't find it. Every result I get when I google that gives me that same CBS News poll showing undecided voters at 51-34 or something like that.

It sounds like one of those self-volunteering online polls that tells you more about how many liberals or conservatives read the web page than about public opinion in general. The polls that Ed Schultz has is like that. I find it interesting that about 3% of Ed Schultz's viewers are conservatives, judging by the answers to his polls.

I understand Joe "Bite Me" Biden almost missed the debate because he was getting his teeth polished.

ROTFLMAO!!!!

This buffoon should be, and is, an embarrassment to all Americans. We, as well as the rest of the world, watched the vice president become the fool of the year. All you needed to do was put some face paint and a round red nose on him and let him run around the stage with an AHOOGA horn to complete the show.

No wonder the world laughs at us when we have a president that looked confused and disoriented during his debate and then a vice president who was doing his best "Tickle Me Elmo" impersonation during his.

Of course the Liberal bobble heads applaud this behavior as their campaign continues to self destruct because of nearly 4 years of failed economic, domestic and foreign policies. This is typical for the Liberal cabal.

Of course in the meantime we have deplomats being killed all over the world but Barrack Hussein and especially Joe "Bite Me" had no idea what was going on in Benghazi. Isn't Joe Biden the alleged foreign policy Wonderkind of the administration? This has Watergate written all over it, except Watergate didn't have 4 dead Americans.

Of course the blame is put on the State Department, the fact that he or barrack didn't know about requests for extra security and of course the convoluted reason that funding was decreased for security. How many Libya's are in the world? How many people in the world don't know the significance of 9/11 in the Muslim world.

Not to worry, I'm sure if the investigation gets too close to the White House, just as it did with fast N Furious, our coward POTUS will just issue an Executive Privilege and fix everything. The incompetencce is shameful.

After Joe Robinettes little circus act yesterday the American people realize what a horrible mistake was made in 2008. For all those who voted for Barrack hussein to pretend they're not racist we can only hope they don't make the same mistake in November and prove their ignorance.

ROMNEY/RYAN 2012 FOR REAL AMERICANS©

• Hey Righties (TeaBags,etc),
• This is still the the United States of America and most of us don't want it to be the Gestapo States of the Fourth Reich. Lying (Ryan/Robmey) and Cheating (state Voter ID laws) are still not the way to get to the top office and won't be as long as there are enough decent and honorable people around!!

If the tax rate for the rich under Obama for the last four years is 36%, and the rate Romney and Ryan say they will have is 36%, please tell me how not raising taxes yet keeping them what they have been is a tax cut!

But this isn't what Romney said. He said "the rich will pay the same SHARE as before". So, for example, if the rich pay 50% of the total taken in taxes, and the middle class gets a tax cut, the rich will pay 50% of the "new" taxes taken in (50% of $2 trillion is less than 50% of $3 Trillion).

Listen to the Reich Wing Neo Cons Biach about Biden, What they are really trying to do is make POTUS Obama not come out as force-full as Biden , They want Mittens to be able to Lie Steal Cheat the American Voter , They dont want Obama to call mittens on all of his lies like Joe did to Lyin Ryan. Mister President you have my and many 100s of Millions of Americans Supporters who want you to take Myth to the woodshed in the next debate. We want to see some Venom and asswhoppin capabilities from you on Mittens Psychopathic Personal Disorder

A couple points:

WOW, why so angry GOP??? You say Lyin was great, composed, and all the other things he clearly was not. If your "man" was so great, why the anger??

Biden was "rude"? After 15 mins from the opening of the debate, Lyin could NOT stop himself from interrupting Biden at every chance. Biden returned the "favor, and poor l'il Eddie gets pissed off and quips: "If WE didn't keep interrupting each other............" But that's all part of the GOP play book. DO NOT ALLOW the other side to speak and talk over them at every chance.

Looks like ya can't take your own crap when given back. And we're the whiners?

Now, all the posters who think Biden is Old, and actually being very dis respectful for the older people of our nation. To start, you guys wanted McCain.....Didn't realize he was a spring chicken. I will NEVER call McCain a chicken hawk, but I will call him a WAR hawk.(had to add that)

So, lets see, GOP hates the 47%, the 30%, apparently from the above comments the elderly, women, blacks, Hispanics, Asians..Native Americans...children who have been born, (They only seem to care about the unborn) etc...... the list is long with their hate. But at least they're consistent, they hate everyone with equal venom.

Oh, back to the age thing. You do realize all you young whipper snappers, YOU will grow old as well one day, so long as you don't get in the wrong face with your hate. (Actually, with the R&R plan, at 55 you will be required to check into the Soylent Green factory for processing. Then ya can have grand ma over for dinner.)

Anyway, good luck with that hate thing, I prefer Love. >:o):

Much Love n Blessings All

( Hi Fiesty >:o): )

Da Pup

>:o): PurRrRrrRrrr

Everybody wants to pay less tax. Why should the middle and working classes pay any amount of tax at all, considering that every dollar in tax paid is a dollar not spent on consumption?

Why should rich people have to pay tax and/or be forced to try to mitigate their high tax rate through productive investment within the US instead of overseas?

Why should business have to pay tax when those taxes just subtract from the ability of business to provide jobs, and/or subtract from the ability of workers to buy their products or services, thereby creating enough new demand to hire new workers?

Why should America's middle and working classes be forced to subsidize the overseas security of US companies that offshore our jobs through military spending? Isn't overseas corporate security provided by our military in-essence a welfare program for US corporations doing business overseas? What about shipping security provided by our navy overseas? If you want to do business in China or India, why shouldn't you also be forced to provide your own oceanic shipping security too?

What about our highways? If we didn't have government funding of highways, then lots of people wouldn't be able to drive to work. But doesn't highway spending largely benefit corporations? Why shouldn't corporations assume a much greater responsibility for building and maintaining highways that are largely used to get their workers to and from work, as well as to ship products and raw materials to and from these same companies? Why should workers have to largely support highway construction and maintenance through paying taxes when by far the largest beneficiary are our corporations?

What about Social Security and Medicare? Shouldn't companies provide their worker's pensions instead, which also cover their health care needs in retirement? Why should wealthy Americans even get Social Security when they are only forced to contribute 6.3% on their first $106,800 in income, when 120,000 Americans earn in-excess of $1 million per year? Just think, if there was no Social Security taxable income cap, benefits could rise by more than 50%, and Social Security would then be solvent for eternity!

So, who should get their tax rates cut and why? Business just passes whatever tax rate that they pay onto consumers, who are then forced to pay higher prices which cut consumption, thereby also cutting job growth. We are in a situation where one side in our political debate wants to maintain a wartime level of military spending indefinitely, which takes away approx. $2.50 from the civilian economy for every dollar spent on the military. The other side wants a secure civilian economy fair to all of us. How can we achieve a fair balance of spending beneficial to both sides using obviously limited resources?

So, why continue to moan about a lack of embassy security overseas when the Republicans themselves voted to cut embassy security spending earlier this year before the Benghazi disaster? Whose fault is it what happened in Benghazi?

Frankly, since our top tax rate was 70% from 1960 to 1980, instead of the 35% top rate of today, and the capital gains tax rate was 35%, instead of the current 15% rate, why isn't our economy on fire?

Just think: If just half of those jobs offshored just during GW's eight years in office were still here, our unemployment rate would be under 4% today.

Just think: All of Europe provides socialized health care for all citizens for less than half of our cost for a health care system which does not meet our needs nearly as well.

Just think: Most of Europe pays for their brighter young people to attend college, while others are paid to learn a trade, while in America we choose instead to saddle our young people with crushing levels of debt, in order to learn enough to join an increasingly uncertain job market.

There has to be a better way forward for America without having to pay increasingly heavy tributes to a lucky few of us, in exchange for ever-less income and retirement security for an ever-increasing majority of us.

We can all experience much greater financial security in our lifetimes, but we can't get there embracing the political party of exclusion and unrestricted access to wealth, at great expense to ever more of us.

I must have watched a different debate than many who have posted here. So many on both sides are misquoting what i heard from both candidates. I didn't see where Ryan stumbled on abortion either. He did take a second when the question was asked but it was a multiple pointed question if you all recall. It was one primarily on religion and how that giudes each of them on abortion and how they will do thier job and they were asked to make it personal. I understood the complexity of the question and he took a few seconds to put his answer in order.

What I saw was the same grin I see from Obama when someone points out the failings of this administration. Biden and Obama both have that ear to ear smile like Ronald McDonald or the Joker when they get cornered. Biden showed he loses his temper and is not very cool under fire. Ryan showed the opposite. I thought the debate of the issues were a draw with both getting thier opinions out to be heard. Ryan had more trouble doing that because of interuptions. Romney did't interupt Obama because Obama didn't even come to the debate last week. I thinnk many were surprised at Ryans knowledge of forgien affairs. I know i was after reading all the negitive comments on these vines prior to the debate.

I really don't think Biden won and new votes for the Obama campain and i don't think Ryan won any more for the Romney campain based on content of eachof thier performances. I do however feel that independants and undecided voters will view Biden's demeaner as arogant and even bullyish to the point the will lean more to Romney OR one of the other third party candidates.

( Hi Fiesty >:o): )

There's my pup!

Come on over here and I'll scratch your belly! ;o)

xoxo!

clb-462357

Actually you are incorrect about your events. First the federal budget doesn’t get enacted the way other laws do.

I know how budget gets passed and in case you didn't notice it wasn't the topic of the discussion - the reason for 0 votes was so I am not sure why you are preaching about the process.

Obama put forward a proposal in his wish list that included the largest tax increase in history but proposed no spending cuts.

I guess you have been living under the rock - and especially during last night's debate. Paul Ryan talked about Obama's defense spending cuts...yet you claim he propsed NO SPENDING CUTS.

so are you lying or is Paul Ryan lying?

Again, a Republican summary of the Obama administration's 2013 budget proposal was defeated, and it was because of changes to the president's proposal.

That's because MSNBC bans Republicans at the most minor of infractions, while Democrats network on here building friend bases, and have preferential treatment by MSNBC.

That's an absurd accusation! Where are the little 'R's and 'D's after our names?? I am an independent. I know many Republicans who support President Obama and other Democrats because they are appalled at what their own party has become.

It is also quite apparent that the Democratic party has employed an army of bloggers as well to collapse Republican comments as well as report any violations of Newsvine policy. Any Republicans that are making too many valid points are banned, and locked out of MSNBC for good. I have received hundreds of E-mails from fellow Republicans confirming this.

Hundreds of emails? That is a flat-out lie. There are not hundreds of accounts being banned. I believe that all of us 'liberals' would welcome a Republican who could make a valid point!

The individuals who are reprimanded or banned have violated the code of honor by spamming, advertising or personally attacking other posters. As you can plainly see if you read FirstRead on a regular basis, there are just as many right-leaning regulars here as there are liberals.

If the Democratic Party is paying people to post comments here, please let me know how I can get in touch with their human resources person so I can be in on it too. :) LOL (Psst... don't you know it's the GOP that has all the money to throw at this election?)

I personally think that this particular debate was no more than a draw at best and with points taken away from Biden for his 'sissy giggles' showing his horse teeth and the moderator Raddatz was a f'king joke that lost control from the start, so with that, Ryan took the prize. You Obama suck-up wannabee's have your heads too far up your butts still hoping for 'Hope and Change'!

As far as Iraq/Afghanistan, I was there for 4 very long tours with 3 of them along the Afghanistan/Pakistan border region with my Unit, Marine Force Recon and trust me it's a pure 'Hell Hole', one that Biden voted to continue, the guy is a lying scumbag, with poppy fields growing rampant, 'if' we leave in 2014 like Biden says, which I can tell you will 'NOT' happen, the Taliban will be back in a matter of days and fund Al Qaida in their quest to take down America.

If the war in Afghanistan/Iraq was so successful for the Obama administration then please go parade around in Helmand 'Hell Man' Province or Iraq in downtown Baghdad waving American flags and see what happens to your ass.

In fact; have Obama fly over there in Air Force One and let him and Joe 'Blow' Biden and let them be the Grand Marshall's.

I can also tell you this, after our last tour (18 months) never once did we see Obama or Biden there to greet us waving American flags here at home either. So Joe 'Horse Teeth' Biden can stop talking about how much he supports the troops, he wouldn't know the truth if was stamped on his forehead.

SEMPER FI TO MY MARINE FORCE RECON BROTHERS !!!!!!!

That's because MSNBC bans Republicans at the most minor of infractions, while Democrats network on here building friend bases, and have preferential treatment by MSNBC.

I have had my posts collapsed for no good reason on several conservative themed websites too.

Boxer, For someone to say it was a tie, who is clearly a Romney drone, we know who won.

That's because MSNBC bans Republicans at the most minor of infractions, while Democrats network on here building friend bases, and have preferential treatment by MSNBC

Look up RuTeatarded and SEZMEUWHACKO. They are 2 of my liberal friends many names : ) who have been banned for calling Knuckledragging Reich Wing Neo Cons Names, and I dont apologize for it : )

Brooklyn Boxer

The reason you did not see Obama/Biden is because you had KP duty . Peeling potatoes and boiling water when they came in and seen the troops. Sounds like you mad. Relax Novemeber 6th and Obama/Biden will get a 2nd Term the House will become Democrat again and the Senate will pass a rule that a simple Majority is all it takes to pass legislation and then we will be on our way to unleashing Americas full potential

So, can anyone even try to imagine that if, God forbid, something were to happen to Barrack Hussein, Joe "Bite Me" became presiedent?

If nothing else, this should scare all real Americans into realizing this can never be allowed. The world was watching this circus spectacle that Joe Robinette put on last night and they're laughing at us.

I hope President Romneys first foreign visit includes an apology for Uncle Joe's pathetic and outlandish behavior. Of course Barrack et al will just look at this as another bump in the road.

ROMNEY/RYAN 2012 FOR REAL AMERICANS©

If you want WAR and Vaginal Probes vote for Robme/Ryan the real Un American Candidates

If You want peace and a Thriving Middle Class vote Obama/Biden Real Americans for Real American Values

Obama/Biden 2012 Your Grandparents and Parents Lives Depend on it

Reuters says that we've gone another trillion dollars in debt for the fourth year in a row. Of course nbc didn't notice, they thought that the lawyer for the dog was more important. Perhaps, they're right, something you know is coming is not exactly news.

It's a shame that this news did not break before the debate. No matter, the next presidential debate is still to come.

At 73 years old, I have a little news for you younger folks. We older folks will manage, you'd better vote with your own future in mind.

Sadly, you don't have a "good" choice. Even the lesser of two evils, is a loser. I'll vote, but not for obama/romney, I like to keep my conscience clear.

IWonder

Sadly, you don't have a "good" choice. Even the lesser of two evils, is a loser. I'll vote, but not for Obama/Biden, I like to keep my conscience clear. So I will vote for LYIN RYAN and MYTH ROBME, I got my Social Security and Medicare paid for so I dont care about anyone else. Why Should I ? I am a Republicon and we dont care about anyone except our-self

There I fixed your train of thought for you, being 73 is awful hard

Your Welcome

IndependentinSD keep on drinking the kool-aid, I take it grape is your flavor?

Besides, it really doesn't matter to me, as long as you keep paying your taxes, I keep getting my paycheck, with benefits! Thanks!

Retired at 45 with 23 years in the Marines, again, keep paying your taxes and work your ass off, my boat needs gas. LMMFBBON!

Brooklyn Boxer

So you are 1 of the 47% Romney has been talking about. Are you a leech as Romney says? Do you feel that you are entitled for freebies? Are you a Parasite that Ryan says that you are? Just Asking?

The polls show mixed results, but one thing stands out in my mind. BIDEN has some SERIOUSL MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES and is CLEARLY UNFIT TO LEAD the nation as second in command. I recorded the debate and watched it twice. I shudder to think of America’s future if Joe Biden were to assume the role as president! Biden is a loose cannon with a frightening lack of diplomacy. He reminded me of Howard Dean.

By contrast, Ryan was calm, rational, articulate and respectful!

Romney/Ryan 2012 (Rational leadership for America!)

Biden and Obama wouldnt know what Real American Values are since they been busy making things worse...

The gas prices here in the golden state are hovering around $4.75 a gallon and raising taxes in a weak economy is going to kill jobs, we already have the highest taxes in lots of categories no need to rape us for more. We have been dependant on the Rich to keep us going that's just going to kick us as it already has straight in the nuts.

I love how you lefties think the middle class has been thriving because that's far from the truth these last 4 years have been utterly brutal here in Cali...

We are being slaughtered here in California and the Democrats are in full control and have been since the 70s they are nothing but Liars, Thieves and Whores.

The Big Players like Russia and China are stoked we have complete douchebags running our Country.

I can see them laughing at Joe last night thinking what a f'ing doorknob.

No question to any observant observer - Biden spanked Eddie Munster and sent him home crying (blue eyes cryin' in the rain). Thoroughly spanked.

Mitt - no tax returns, no medicare or social security, no jobs or money except for 'job creators', no right to personal family planning - contraception or privacy, no end to deficits - defense spending or war, ... NO CHANCE to get my vote.

Well, what can I say?? The last debate was how the first debate should have gone. You can whine how Biden interrupted Ryan time after time and how he may have seemed "unprofessional," but Biden obviously had the edge. He may not have won, but he certainly had the edge.

This debate highlighted the issues that will define the outcome of this election. As my good friends David Walker and Old Timer have said time after time, this Republican Party is essentially the party of the 1%, by the 1%, for the 1%. Ever since the time of Reagan, the GOP has become a party of the financial elite, and has done everything possible to further their interests, even at the expense of the nation's health. From expensive and redistributionist tax cuts to a rollback of Great Depression-era regulations to the weakening and neglect of the social welfare state, these bastards have turned the American Dream upside down and backwards. And what does Romney/Ryan represent??? Romney/Ryan represents the complete antithesis to everything America stands for and the quintessence of the Republican Party. Instead of focusing on how to reduce economic disparity and how to responsibly reduce the deficit and fix the tax code, these bastards seek to provide numerous tax breaks to the wealthy disguised as "pro-growth" policies aimed to stimulate the economy. Instead of focusing on preventing another financial collapse that could utterly destroy the global economy and cause another depression, they seek to "roll back" regulations on these banks and let them dominate the economy. Instead of being serious on tackling energy problems and helping the plight of the impoverished, they seek to duck the tough issues on global warming and destroy the social safety net, sending this country back to the Dark Ages and the world into another Ice Age. While Obama and Biden have not been as liberal as I would have liked, and have often seemed to be too willing to compromise with the Republicans, they have truly performed their best to get this country moving again. And I would rather support a compromising moderate than a lying and prejudiced right-wing extremist.

OBAMA BIDEN 2012

IndependentinSD no, I've earned my keep, so again, keep working your ass off, so far, you've paid my house off, as well as another rental property at the beach and myself and my beautiful wife are really enjoying our boat too.

Actually, you'll be happy to know that I'm double dipping, I have a federal job that is a cake walk, that I will also retire from and get an additional check, so remember keep paying your taxes there SD, I'll think of you every time I look at my bank account.

Just saying ..... :-)

I noticed that everyone wants to talk about the "instant polls", but there's a piece missing from this debate. Frank Luntz was readily available to the media after the last debate, talking about his famous "dial polling" that takes place in real time with a focus group.

Today Luntz is nowhere to be found...interesting.

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

( Hi Fiesty >:o): )

There's my pup!

Come on over here and I'll scratch your belly! ;o)

xoxo!

--------------------------------------------------------------

OOOOOOoooOoOoOooOooOooooo Tummy Scratches......

>:o): PurRrrRrRrrRrrRrrrRrRrRrRrrRrrrrrrrr

L'il lower please......Oh Bad Dog.... >:o):

TY Fiesty,

Have a wonderful weekend.

Much Love n Giggles,

Da Pup

>:o):

PS: The popcorn was great >:o):

Big Al

I 2 am in Cali, and I have done very well, Don't Blame Obama for Schwarzenegger's Mess, You Republicons elected him twice, and btw don't you know the President does not affect gas prices, it is a global economy that affects the prices. Hey about showing some initiative and pull yourself up by the bootstraps and quit Blaming everyone else for your bad choices

Is it just me, that thinks Mitt Romney has a Psychopathic Personalty Disorder? God help us if he gets into office and he goes even crazier than he currently is. 1 hand on the Prozac bottle and the other on the red button

Obama/Biden 2012 We need Sanity in the WhiteHouse not a Psychopath

I think he fits the majority of these points below

The following characteristics of a psychopath, defined by Hervery M. Cleckley in 1941 in the book Mask of Sanityinclude:

• Superficial charm and average intelligence.
• Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking.
• Absence of nervousness or neurotic manifestations.
• Unreliability.
• Untruthfulness and insincerity.
• Lack of remorse or shame.
• Antisocial behavior without apparent compunction.
• Poor judgement and failure to learn from experience.
• Pathological egocentricity and incapacity to love.
• General poverty in major affective reactions.
• Specific loss of insight.
• Unresponsiveness in general interpersonal relations.
• Fantastic and uninviting behavior with drink, and sometimes without.

also

Because of their inability to gauge when their actions are being perceived as dishonest, deceitful or dangerous, they also fail to accept that there are consequences for their actions. They always maintain a belief that they can outwit those who pursue them and that they will never be caught. Once caught, they believe they will find a way back out.

I think there is a lot to say about Mitts Mental Health Issues even his wife Queen Annie said she is worried about his Mental Well Being

Seek help man ...... like today, there's something really wrong with you. I hope that you don't have any firearms nearby ....... lol

Brooklyn

Thank You for your service to OUR Country and I will GLADLY pay my Taxes in support of your service, Now if we could just get that Draft Dodger Mitt and The wealthy Elite to pay there Fair Share in Support of you and Many Millions more of Service Men and Women it would be nice

So, lemme get this straight.

First Joe "Bite Me" Biden tells us the State Department was to blame for him and Barrack Hussein not knowing what was happening in Benghazi, right?

Then he turns around and reassures us that they will know exactly when Iran's nuclear enrichment will be able to be weaponized.

Seems to me Joe Robinettes hair follicles were pulled too tight.

This administration is a foreign policy disaster and needs to be removed so we can get competent leadership in to restore our national and global security.

ROMNEY/RYAN 2012 FOR REAL AMERICANS©

If you want WAR with Iran, Russia, China and Syria and Vaginal Probes vote for Robme/Ryan the real Un American Candidates

If You want peace and a Thriving Middle Class vote Obama/Biden Real Americans for Real American Values

Obama/Biden 2012 Your Grandparents and Parents Lives Depend on it

IndependentinSD it's all good man, just calm down now, everything will be alright and it was my honor to serve 'our' country.

Take care man and all the very best to you .....

Thanks independent, for the concern. In spite of what obama says, I got this far on my own.

If we independents had any guts, we could deny either one of those losers, a majority. Don't start with all the reasons that I should pick one or the other, they're just cowardly bs.

If you were a man you wouldn't claim to be something that you are not. Nah, pay no mind to me, the democrats and republicans are brainless and we independents are gutless.

Brooklyn

Have a SAFE and Happy weekend : )

IWonder

I voted for Reagan , and Bush I and voted for BUSHII in the first election only, after seeing the Havoc of Bushs 1st term I turned Independent. and Obama does not have all the answers but he is a far cry from Robme/Lyin Ryan. I wont Vote Republican again until there is SOME Sanity from that side, They definitely not my Dads Republican Party or Mine anymore

Hey independent, we all make mistakes and mine were worse than yours.

I voted for jfk and lbj. Those two did the poor of this country more damage than all the crooked bankers and slave owners that ever lived. I will grant you that lbj was the worse of the two but he could not have done it without jfk getting killed.

IWonder

I have to go take my son to Baseball practice, I wish you a Safe and Happy Weekend. Take Care

The bottom line is,as I think Joe Biden made clear last night.Since the New Deal Democrats have always stood for the Middle and Working Class in America.While the Republicans have been the party of the privileged. The only difference today is the wealthy neo-con donors have been trying to buy the Elections with ever and ever more big money. But when you cut through all the BS. It still comes down to the bottom line. The Democrats stand for the Middle and Working Class and the Republicans don't.

Obama/Biden

Exactly Kaybee,

Romney is using Moody's prediction that the Economy is set to make 12 million jobs by 2016 -- due to the strong foundation laid by President Obama.

President Clinton was saying at the Convention, that we'll start feeling the recovery.

Yet GOP still wants to repeal Obama's Wall Street reform (that is preventing another collapse)!

That's what folks have to realize about the GOP agenda.

Here are the top ten worst lies told by Biden during the debate:

Update - Honorable Mention: "There's not one Democrat who endorsed his...plan." Biden lied--as Ryan pointed out, amidst the Vice President's interruptions--about the fact that Ryan had worked with both Democratic Sen. Ron Wyden of Oregon and former Clinton budget director Alice Rivlin in developing his entitlement reforms. While it's true that neither have endorsed the Romney-Ryan ticket's separate plan--which is different--Ryan's own plans, to which Biden referred, were endorsed by Democrats, and Biden knows it.

10. "With all due respect, that’s a bunch of malarkey....not a single thing he said is accurate." At the outset of the debate, Biden tried to paint Ryan as a liar--when Biden, in fact, was the one lying. Ryan had pointed out: 1) that the White House had distanced itself from the Cairo embassy's apologies on 9/11; 2) that Obama had failed to speak up for Iranian protestors in 2009; 3) that the Obama administration called Syria's dictator a "reformer"; 4) and that the Obama administration is imposing defense cuts and projecting weakness. All of that is true.

9. "The president has met with Bibi [Netanyahu] a dozen times....This is a bunch of stuff." While they have met several times--not a dozen--that includes a meeting at which Obama made the Israeli prime minister enter the White House through a back entrance, refused to take a picture with him, and left him on his own for dinner. Specifically, Ryan had criticized Obama's refusal to meet Netanyahu in New York last month, and to tape talk show interviews instead--a clear snub that sent the wrong signal, again, to Israel's enemies.

8. "Just let the taxes expire like they’re supposed to on those millionaires." Biden's "millionaires" are actually households earning more than $250,000 a year, which includes many middle-class families with two earners, and small business owners in particular who report business earnings as personal income. Biden and Obama have repeatedly labeled those earning over $250,000 as "millionaires and billionaires," distorting the actual impact of their tax plan on the non-millionaires it would hit hardest, who create a vast proportion of small business jobs.

7. "You know, I heard that death panel argument from Sarah Palin. It seems that every vice presidential debate, I hear this kind of stuff about panels." Biden's cheap shot against Palin was an attempt to diminish both her and the man sitting across from him. But Palin never talked about "death panels" in her debate with Biden, for the simple reason that Obamacare had not yet been proposed. Nor did Ryan mention "death panels"--he had addressed the undeniable fact that Obamacare proposes a board to impose cost controls.

6. "The congressman here cut embassy security in his budget by $300 million below what we asked for." Biden's lie about Ryan's budget was an attempt to dodge responsibility for lax embassy security--and to cover up that the Obama administration called for new cuts to embassy security just days after the 9/11 attacks. Ryan's proposal, which called for a 19% overall decrease in non-defense discretionary spending, does not even mention embassy security--the Obama campaign merely made up that number by applying 19% across the board.

5. "No, they are not four years closer to a nuclear weapon." Biden's attempt to lie about the glaring reality of the Iranian nuclear program fell flat. Iran is indeed four years closer to a nuclear weapon, and the Obama administration--believing it knew better than its predecessors--tried to reinvent the wheel on talks with Iran, causing frustration to our allies in Europe and the Middle East. Meeting after meeting this year has failed to produce results, and the loophole-filled sanctions, while hurting Iran somewhat, are not stopping its nuclear program.

4. "No religious institution, Catholic or otherwise...has to be a vehicle to get contraception in any insurance policy they provide. That is a fact." No, it is not a fact--it is the opposite of a fact, and saying "that is a fact" does not make it any less a blatant lie. The Obama administration is forcing religious institutions to provide contraceptive and abortion drugs through their insurance policies. That is the reason several dozen religious institutions are suing the administration to defend their First Amendment freedom of religion.

3. "It came from this man voting to put two wars on a credit card...I was there. I voted against him." Biden voted for both the Iraq war and the Afghanistan war. He did not vote for George W. Bush's plan to extend coverage of Medicare to prescription drugs (though he voted for an earlier, similar proposal), nor did he vote for the Bush tax cuts. But he voted for both of the wars he derided last night. To quote Bill Clinton's speech to the Democratic National Convention: "It takes some brass to attack a guy for doing what you did."

2. "What we did is we saved $716 billion and put it back -- applied it to Medicare." Biden repeated the lie the Obama administration has been telling since before Obamacare passed in 2010: that cuts to Medicare today were savings that extend the life of the program. They would be--if the same $716 billion wasn't also being used to pay for Obamacare. As Ryan pointed out in 2010, and again last night, you can't double-count the same cuts. Taking $716 billion out of Medicare means exactly that--and hurts, not helps, the program's solvency.

1. "Well, we weren’t told they wanted more security again." Biden lied through his teeth about the fact that the administration--specifically, the State Department--had been told again and again that security on the ground in Libya, and in Benghazi in particular, was inadequate. The day before, in Congressional hearings on the Libya attacks, former regional security director Eric Nordstrom described his frustration with having those requests turned down by the government bureaucracy: "For me the Taliban is on the inside of the building."

Looks like that Wisconsin effect is taking its toll on the GOD-less Demon-crats!!!

Save America!!! Defeat Communist Obama and clueless Lyin' Joe!!!

Psychotherapists will experience the biggest boon in history after the President is reelected. Exploding Republican heads everywhere will have to be retaught all of the basic types of proper human behavior that they learned as toddlers;

Tell the truth. Respect others. Be honest. Play nice. Share with others and look out for those that need your help. Above all, don't talk to strangers. They don't come much stranger than Romney and Ryan. They want only to molest you.

Romney threatens to fire the moderator and Biden is considered agressive? Give me a break...

Well said Backhouse, they can dish it but they can't take.

Last night Paul Ryan got handed his a** by a very experienced Vice President.

Listening to Morning Joe, this morning what a whine fest, nary a conservative could say, it was a great debate.

Love Joe, he's a great guy and it was one smart choice to have him on the ticket. He's a fellow who you know has your back, a genuine person who will always be in the 47%'s corner.

Great Job..you made your point very well...you said what I wanted to say but could not find the right words...Obama/Biden 12

Backhouse

Please.

No headline last week about Romney's disrespectful, aggressive, super-mendacious debate attack? Yet V-P Biden is an "aggressor" now? Well, Joe represented us 300,000,000 = WE the middle class, and OUR realities.

Fantastic point Backhouse.

Righties can dish out but can't take it when it comes back it 'em

BTW: Romney & Ryan are rude and morally deficient.

4 more 4 44

Obama/Biden 2012

In case you haven't been listening, Medicare and Social Security are going broke because of the raid that both parties have done to it to balance the budgets and that includes Bill Clinton. Something has to be done about Medicare and Social Security if there is any hope of people in their 50's having any resemblance to it. So wake up and start realizing we have serious problems.

Romney never interrupted Obama. Romney never laughed, smirked, or shouted over Obama. Big difference between the class and courtesy both Romney and Ryan displayed, and the rude grumpy old man Biden appeared to be. Biden offered nothing but insults, and as the truth detectors point out, most of what he said was pure malarkey.

Romney interrupted moderator several times and overrode objections from Lehrer as he insisted on final word in one segment when it was not his turn to have the last word.

Having the last word in a segment of debate is a huge advantage, so I would say Romney broke the rules and cheated here.

What Biden did in interrupting was fair play in this context.

Good job, Joe. You didn't let Ryan get away with lyin'.

Rick....what debate did you watch?. The Romney that showed up for his debate had a constant smirk, he kept talking so much, I wondered was he on speed. The moderator let him run the show, and I'm sure you were alright with that.

Joe Biden wasn't going to let that happen. He did what he had to do, take that and accept it, your guy needs some seasoning.

Ryan showed class last night, Biden showed classless.

Backhouse, terrific post. I found Ryan's answer to Radditz's question about the ads and the negativity to be as phony as everything else about the R/R team. Instead of answering honestly, he immediately tried to blame Obama/Biden for making incorrect claims YET it is Romney/Ryan who BOTH have been called out repeatedly for making incorrect, factless comments and outright lies. Even FOX News after Ryan's nomination speech said Ryan must have been trying to set a record for the number of lies in one speech.

Obama/Biden 2012!!!!

JERSY GIRL 1

In case you haven't been listening, Medicare and Social Security are going broke because of the raid that both parties have done to it to balance the budgets and that includes Bill Clinton.

But JERSY GIRL,

If Romeny/Ryan put it on the stock market, as they plan to do, it won't just go broke; it won't exist anymore.

Ryan’s Social Security privatization proposal, the Social Security Personal Savings Guarantee and Prosperity Act of 2005, which he sponsored along with then-Sen. John Sununu (whose father has been a prominent Romney surrogate), would have allowed workers to funnel an average of 6.4 percent of their 12.4 percent payroll-tax contribution to a private account. Lower-income workers would be able to divert more of their wages, as the plan allows 10 percent of income up to $10,000 and 5 percent of income up to the payroll tax cap to be diverted. By default, the private account would be invested in a portfolio set by the Social Security Administration of 65 percent stocks and 35 percent bonds. Workers could choose an 80/20 stock-bond portfolio, or a 50-50 portfolio, but would not be able to pick individual stocks or bonds. At retirement, all participants in the plan would be required to buy an annuity.

http://www.balloon-juice.com/2012/08/21/romney-ryan-and-social-security/

========================================

Remember, last night LYIN Ryan said you'd have an option. If you believe the republicans will give you an option, I got a bridge to sell you

4 more 4 44

Obama/Biden 2012

Joe Biden is a better man than Ayn Ryan can imagine. Joe was not smirking at Ryan's lies, he was smiling and eager to get it on with that kid.
And then he set the record straight time after time.

At least Ryan did not flip flop every few seconds like Romney did. He stayed on his course. He said he wants to make abortion illegal in America again. That means he sees women as property. How very 14th century of him. My wife and daughters will never vote for him because of that alone.

Joe set the record straight on the economic plan that R & R have for us. Big tax cuts and more military spending. This will be revenue neutral? There are not nearly enough loopholes to cover that $5 Trillion dollar whole in the budget. R & R WILL raise taxes on most Americans so that his aristocracy can hoard even more in Swiss bank accounts.

Joe Biden then schooled the kid on foreign policy. The Iraqis said repeatedly that they wanted our Army to stay in Iraq as policemen.

"Who will protect us from ourselves when you leave?" the Iraqis said. The Afghans are saying the same thing. Joe Biden knows this. The kid does not. We will leave Afghanistan in 2014.

O and Joe for Americans.

Ryan showed last night he is ill prepared for prime time. He lacked facts - something he clearly inherited from Romney; tried talking over the moderator as well as Biden - because he has no class; and again continued to lie about everything. I liked that Martha basically called him out several times.

Obama/Biden 2012

I really wish that the liberal media would just give an objective story to the Romney/Ryan budget plan. Their always reporting about things like sweat shops in China and off shoring to India and how the laborers in other countries get paid pennies compared to the American worker. They claim that those are the reasons jobs are disappearing in the US. Coining Joes term, that’s just malarkey. And Romney/Ryan knows that. All we have to do is lower taxes and all outsourced jobs will come roaring back. Folks like myself will take that savings and will perhaps hire some of those worthless 47 percenters. Assuming they’ll work with no benefits. Crazy 47 percenters… always wanting to work and have things like medical, dental, and 401k’s. Just be glad I employee your sorry mooching souls. And when I do hire you don’t be trying to create unions and ask for higher wages or I may have to crank back up my shops in Beijing. Those factories are always turnkey and ready to go.

Bottom line people keep thinking that it was cheap labor that was causing American jobs to disappear when all this time it was the tax code. Wake up folks! When Romney/Ryan get into office, those sweat shops will shut down and when you call Dell for PC support, FINALLY it will be an English speaking American on the other end of that phone and not the cousin of the 7/11 owner in Trenton, NJ. Lowering taxes will fix this economy. Go Mitt Romney/Ryan 2012.

In case you haven't been listening, Medicare and Social Security are going broke because of the raid that both parties have done to it to balance the budgets and that includes Bill Clinton.

In case we haven't been listening to what, exactly? Because Social Security is not going broke, and Medicare is suffering under the dual threat of a massive increase in retiring Baby Boomers, and skyrocketing healthcare costs.

...and the Republicans have never even come close to balancing the budget.

Liberals are so funny.. They call Biden's performance a slam dunk.. Which makes sense considering that he came off as a rude, obnoxious 2 year old that interupts "grown folks" conversations, which is typical liberal behavior.. Honestly, at his age he should know better.. He really would've benefitted from a mild sedative to get that terrets under wraps..

Ryan kept his cool, stayed on topic and kept true to forum.. He didn't get stuck on abortion, he expressed his personal views on abortion and what plans Romney Administration has to deal with the issue.. Why should the government have to pay for an abortion (outside of rape, incest, safety of the mother)? If you want to "tramp out" and get pregnant how is it fair to lay that financial burden on the taxpayer? Especially when birth control is so readily available..

Romney/Ryan 2 Obama/Biden 0

JERSY GIRL 1

In case you haven't been listening, Medicare and Social Security are going broke because of the raid that both parties have done to it to balance the budgets and that includes Bill Clinton. Something has to be done about Medicare and Social Security if there is any hope of people in their 50's having any resemblance to it. So wake up and start realizing we have serious problems.

The problem Jersey Girl, is that the Republicans want to take a meat ax into surgery. Look, let's try to be honest for a change. We both know the Republicans have been out to do away with Social Security since FDR instituted it. Read a little history...it's a fact! They have also been screaming about Medicare since LBJ signed it into law..."socialism".

You see, the Social Security Trust Fund is the last non-privatized truncheon of public funds left in government. Wall Street desperately wants to get their hands on it. Gambling other peoples money is what they do...and they win whether the investor does or not. If Social Security had been privatized under GW Bush, which is what he was pushing for, between 2007 and 2008 most seniors would have lost their retirements in the market crash. Social Security is not an investment...it's an insurance policy. By the way, have you ever notices the people yelling the most about Social Security not being a good investment are the people who have plenty of money to invest regardless of social security?

Privatizing Medicare along with ending the Affordable Care Act would provide a wonderful opportunity for Insurance Company executives. Imagine at the age of 82 years old, trying to find an Insurance Company that would insure you with all your per-existing conditions. The voucher just wouldn't cut it.

Fixing a thing does not requiring destroying a thing.

John from North Arlington - clearly you've been drinking BIG TIME this morning. A Romney/Ryan win would do NOTHING to bring jobs back to the US.

Actually a number of manufacturers are already beginning to bring jobs back because quality is better her and pay has gone up overseas. If the Republicans in Congress had not blocked Obama's proposals we would already have MORE jobs back here. He has proposed giving tax breaks to companies that bring jobs back and retraining programs so workers are qualified for the jobs.

You really need to get a clue because your post shows you don't have one. Romney doesn't give a damn about anything but winning - so he can say he did one better than his Dad. He is no leader but he is the biggest liar to run in a long time.

Obama/Biden 2012

John from North Arlington:

Your post is awesomely hilarious. Well played. :)

Laulaus

Liberals are so funny.. They call Biden's performance a slam dunk.. Which makes sense considering that he came off as a rude, obnoxious 2 year old that interupts "grown folks" conversations, which is typical liberal behavior.. Honestly, at his age he should know better.. He really would've benefitted from a mild sedative to get that terrets under wraps..

If a 2 year old stomps your butt into the mud...his age doesn't matter...your butt's still in the mud. Hey, Ryan is a young man...someone needed to take him to school.

Looks like that Organ in Ryan's head had a Malfunction in the debate !!!!!

Joe Biden and Barack Obama are two very intelligent, honest, caring, and capable men, who serve this country with great dignity and steely resolve. My chronic worry though, remains the continually deteriorating mental state of waaay too many of the American electorate. I say this, not to cast aspersions on those who have fundamentally honest differences with the policies, and/or policy applications of these two men. My concerns are directed toward the seemingly legions, of, at best, low information Americans, who wildly go forth with so many outlandish propositions, resulting from imaginings that are always all too common among the ignorant, greedy and fearful. These, and the exploitative feeding of their misdirected ire may very well be the ultimate undoing of this once great Republic, and at present, I see little hope of any fundamental change for the better. We are, if not accomplished already, very close to becoming a nation of insanity.

"... two very intelligent, honest, caring, and capable men, who serve this country with great dignity and steely resolve"

HELLO? What planet do you live on? Barry & Joe have nothing but CONTEMPT for the PEASANTS they lord over. Just watch Barry anytime someone questions his words, he bristles with arrogance.

And Joe, he REFUSES to even look at the FACTS, then preaches to the American people about MATH.

Too much 'Bama-Aide for you

Hey Steve, What planet are you from, Blowing your hot air for you're 1% buddies !!!!!

Rick, what fact checkers are you looking at? Politifact, factcheck, and NBC all say that Ryan and Romney lied and Obama and Biden told more truths than lies. Even Fox said Ryan's speech at the RNC was all lies. So I guess you consider Rush, and the Drudge report as "facts" lol.

@Steve-446003#2.23: Sigh, I really hope you are just angry, and not a member of those I described. Anger gripping an honest person will eventually give way to rationality, while lunacy will hold one in the pits of depravity all their days.

Btw, I'm partial to beer, and an occasional Coca Cola.

Ryan was the "ECHO" of Romney's Lies !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I with Obama and Biden ... not only are they going to cut Medicare by $715 billion but they're going to STOP THE UNFUNDED Rx PLAN FOR SENIORS

I am with Obama and Biden because I am sick to death of all these Old People getting everthing. Finally someone who will stand up and tell all these Old People "you can't have it for free" You can't live forever and we're not going to go Bankrupt trying to help you hang on for another 10 years.

Only one question about women, and that about personal views on abortion?

What about scientific views? What about equal pay for equal work? What about how some of the economic problems affect women?

Two debates so far. Men won two, women, NONE.

As to healthcare (which affects women much more than men, BTW):

Medicare will not be cut, nor will the prescription drug plan. They are cutting pharmacy costs by negotiating drug prices, as every country in Europe and Asia do. You can't have it for huge profits either, especially when taxpayers paid for research, and the big pharma companies charge that again to the consumers.

@OleDoc

You would see it that way, like I said you're all alike.. Biden pulled a "hissy fit" and Ryan stood calm.. America is watching.. Do you want your Vice-President to act like a two year old when under pressure or like a mature responsible adult? I really hope the independent voters had their fill of this administration as we have..

Romney/Ryan 2012

Something has to be done about Medicare and Social Security if there is any hope of people in their 50's having any resemblance to it. So wake up and start realizing we have serious problems.

Yes, JG...apparently we DO have serious problems! Let's solve them, beginning with education.

I'd call you an idiot, but then you'd say you resemble that remark.

Ryan knows that. All we have to do is lower taxes and all outsourced jobs will come roaring back.

Whoa. You have been drinkin' a lot a koolaid down thar in drought-stricken Tejas. Prayin' for rain. Watchin' some football. Eatin' some tacos.

Newsflash: American corporations receive huge tax breaks for moving their operations overseas. President Obama wants to end those tax breaks. THAT would bring jobs back here to our shores.

"And as the old saying goes “A tie goes to the challenger”. " I never heard of this one before. Certainly that isn't true in boxing.

To listen to the Republicans, Americans are worried about the consulate issue in Libya. Really? That is what this election is about?

And if you are complaining about smirking, go back and watch the first debate. Romney was doing the same thing.

Somewhere in the 1990s I gave up on the Republicans. I would never argue that the Democrats are perfect or have all the right answers, but I can't stomach the Republicans and their desire to win at any cost.

Somewhere in the 1990s I gave up on the Republicans. I would never argue that the Democrats are perfect or have all the right answers, but I can't stomach the Republicans and their desire to win at any cost.

Those are my sentiments exactly, tomilvento.

Here's the difference between Romney and Ryan;

Mitt doesn't believe in anything beyond getting what he wants and enriching himself. He lies so skillfully because he has no "ideology" beyond self interest. He hides that fact because he knows it won't get him any votes, and he gracefully slides between positions because it's the salesman inside him.

Ryan is a REAL Conservative in a way that Mittens can never be. PR didn't just drink the kool aide, he helped mix it. As a true devotee of Ayn Rand and a diehard Conservative it's harder for him to lie as well as his running mate...some of the positions he needs to take in order to gain votes conflict with his inner compass. Those are the times when he stumbles over his words, fudges and fibs clumsily, or shockingly states inconvenient truths about his positions.

The polls show mixed results, but one thing stands out in my mind. BIDEN has some SERIOUSL MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES and is CLEARLY UNFIT TO LEAD the nation as second in command. I recorded the debate and watched it twice. I shudder to think of America’s future if Joe Biden were to assume the role as president! Biden is a loose cannon with a frightening lack of diplomacy. He reminded me of Howard Dean.

By contrast, Ryan was calm, rational, articulate and respectful!

Romney/Ryan 2012 (Rational leadership for America!)

So, the fact that Ryan was demonstrably lying through his teeth throughout the debate doesn't enter into the calculation?

I laugh at Congressman Ryan as well. His snake oil sales routine is so ridiculous one can hardly help but do so.

Chris, I'm thrilled the Tigers won. Congratulations!

I voted for President Obama's re-election this week. Aside from the fact I like President Obama as a person, I also:

Don't want Medicare turned into a voucher program before I am eligible for care. I have a hard enough time dealing with private health insurance companies NOW, I can't picture myself doing it when I am a demented 84 year old.

Don't want to see desperate young women caught seeking abortions prosecuted. Don't want to see employers allowed to drop coverage for birth control from their health insurance policies or see Planned Parenthood de-funded, not to mention Sesame Street!

Biden announced his candidacy for President in June 1987, and was considered one of the potentially strongest candidates in the field. However, in September 1987, newspaper stories stated he had plagiarized a speech by British politician Neil Kinnock.

Other allegations of past law school plagiarism and exaggerating his academic record soon followed. Biden withdrew from the race later that month.

Jersey girl

Just like the rest of the teabaggers, you cupcake can Only look back. Can't defend the pure Lies and flip flops of the GOP/Teas so you resort to More lies??? Where do you get such trash...Fox, Limbag, Hanitty, Koch's, or just your radical Right sheep?

Little Ryan showed his hand on "its My beliefs" that matter. He must think modern working woman Need to be told by the Church and Men how to plan their reproductive lives & health. Oh & lets Not forget his co-sponsering of many "rape" laws that are a total disrespect to Any thinking woman. (except maybe u cupcake) Hatfull liars is the new Tea/GOP..sad.

Yep, "Take America Back", what they mean by that is back to the days of our founding fathers, to restore the beliefs our founders wanted. The beliefs that minorities were inferior, women were inferior and belonged in the kitchen and at home raising children. Women also need to stay out of politics all together a woman in politics is on the same level as a concubine. Men should rule over everything, and should be more educated than all others. Yes that is what they mean when they say "restore our founding principles". Because our political founding principles are way too far out of reach to go back to.

Also before you get on me for "disrespecting" our founding fathers, try doing your research and you'll find that IS what they believed.

*Q* ..... Why do the presidential polling in the states of WISC and MASS have Obama/Biden ahead...

*A*...... I guess the citizens of Ryans and Romneys "home-based" states haven't been too impressed ...

It's frightening that Joe Biden, the demented old fool that he is, is next in line to be president. I think the following pretty much sums up last night.

Joe Was the Only One Laughing

"If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet." --Proverbs 29:9

Conventional wisdom says that vice presidential debates don't move the needle in elections, and last night's debate was probably no exception. That said, Thursday night's debate couldn't have contrasted two more different candidates. Paul Ryan, the respectful, serious and earnest policy wonk, against Joe Biden, who behaved like a drunken clown and a jerk and paid due homage to the mascot of the Democrat Party -- the Jackass.

On substance, Ryan held his own against Vice President Chuckles, despite having to face a second debate opponent in "moderator" Martha Raddatz of ABC News. Yet on style, whether the subject was the terrorist attack on our Libyan embassy, the ailing economy or abortion, Biden smiled, laughed, sneered, rolled his eyes and strategically interrupted Ryan every time the congressman hit his stride on an answer. And if it wasn't Biden interrupting, it was Raddatz.

Biden is obviously a disciple of Saul Alinksy, who in his "Rules for Radicals," Rule No. 5, said, "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counterattack ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, who then react to your advantage." Clearly, the Obama team decided that the president's failure last week was that he was "too polite," and that Biden had to use ridicule to shore up their anxious base. The result was appalling, but then again, Biden has been rehearsing his socialist obfuscation and diversion in Washington for 40 years.

With that, here are a few high- and lowlights.

Libya: Biden blamed the intelligence community for the ever-changing story coming from the White House, and flat out lied when he claimed ignorance as a defense. "[W]e weren't told they wanted more security" at the embassy, he said.. But the bottom line is that the whole episode is, as Ryan responded, "indicative of a broader problem," and we're witnessing "the unraveling of the Obama foreign policy."

Iran: Biden made the ridiculous assertion that even though Iran has spent the last four years further developing fissile material for a nuclear weapon, "they have to be able to have something to put it in. There is no weapon that the Iranians have at this point." Well, building a bomb to "put it in" is the easy part. When the argument shifted to how the ayatollah sees it, Biden argued that the administration's "most crippling sanctions in the history of sanctions, period," have the Iranians looking at an "economy being crippled ... the currency going into the tank ... [and] the economy going into free fall." We wondered if he meant the Iran economy or the U.S. economy. Maybe the administration should ease up on sanctions here at home.

Economy: We have to give Raddatz props for asking Biden why White House projections of unemployment under 6 percent were so wrong, but Biden immediately defaulted to blaming Bush. He then berated Mitt Romney for wanting to "let Detroit go bankrupt," in contrast to the administration, which "rescued General Motors." What he neglected to mention was that Detroit did go bankrupt -- the White House just made sure the unions came out okay.

Biden then proceeded to the usual leftist class warfare, accusing Republicans of holding the middle class "hostage" to tax cuts "for the super wealthy." Yet tax policy should be about growth, not "fair shares" and "economic patriotism," as Barack Obama put it last week. As Ryan noted, "The economy is barely limping along. It's growing at 1.3 percent. That's slower than it grew last year and last year was slower than the year before." The Romney/Ryan tax cut plan -- a 20 percent cut across the board with reforms to deductions and credits -- is first and foremost a pro-growth plan. The so-called "cost" of cutting those taxes will be more than offset by economic growth. Ryan tried to note despite rude interruption that John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan did the same thing with great success, contrary to the leftist assertion that we "can't afford" it and that the Bush-era tax cuts caused the current deficits.

As for unemployment, the real (U-6) rate, which includes those who are underemployed and those who have become discouraged and simply given up looking for work, is reported as 14.7 percent but, as with U-3, is probably much higher. In addition, the real unemployed and underemployed ranks of Americans have swollen to more than 20 million, households considered impoverished have grown to one in six, and there are 47 million food stamp recipients -- up 50 percent since Obama's election. Obama has also amassed $5 trillion in new debt, and our national debt now totals $16 trillion, which for the first time in history now exceeds U.S. annual economic output. Finally, median household income has declined by $4,520 (8.2 percent) since Obama took office (that's the real "Obama tax"), energy prices have doubled because of Obama restrictions, and economic growth has slowed to an anemic 1.3 percent.

Biden made hay of Romney's statement about 47 percent not paying federal income taxes, but that created an opening for Ryan's best zinger of the night: "I think the vice president very well knows that sometimes the words don't come out of your mouth the right way."

Medicare and Social Security: Ryan hit the most critical point, saying, "Medicare and Social Security are going bankrupt. These are indisputable facts." He noted that Democrats "got caught with their hands in the cookie jar, turning Medicare into a piggybank for ObamaCare," taking $716 billion from future Medicare outlays to make ObamaCare look less expensive, but in essence trying to spend the same dollar twice. Biden countered with the same lie about Ryan's "voucher" plan supposedly costing seniors $6,400 a year when it does nothing of the sort. Biden's real assertion is the same old canard that markets and competition don't work, only government does.

Taxes: This was largely covered under the economy section, but it was at this point that Ryan really nailed it: "[W]e think that government taking 28 percent of a family and business's income is enough. President Obama thinks that the government ought to be able to take as much as 44.8 percent of a small business's income." And, given that "[e]ight out of 10 businesses file their taxes as individuals, not as corporations," this is key.

Afghanistan: Ryan took issue with Obama's withdrawal deadline because "we don't want to lose the gains we've gotten. We want to make sure that the Taliban does not come back in and give al-Qa'ida a safe haven." That's exactly what's beginning to happen under the current commander in chief. Biden's reply was essentially that deadlines are good for cooperation. And, he noted, "I've been throughout that whole country, mostly in a helicopter, and sometimes in a vehicle." Well then, that settles it!

Religion and abortion: This is not the top issue for most voters, but the candidates answers certainly were a window into their philosophies. While both men are Catholic, only one of them expressed genuine faith. Ryan noted that "reason and science" go hand in hand with his faith, saying that, when they saw the "seven-week ultrasound for our firstborn child, and we saw the heartbeat," it confirmed to him that "life begins at conception." Biden agreed, "Life begins at conception in the church's judgment. I accept it in my personal life." And yet somehow, in public policy, he's determined to protect not that innocent life but a woman's right to "control [her] body." His faith teaches that abortion is murder, yet he thinks it should be legal and funded by the federal government. The contradiction was stunning.

Biden also played fast and loose with verb tenses in claiming that Catholic institutions don't have to pay for contraception, per the ObamaCare mandate. They will next year. And Ryan responded with a simple question: If the administration is so great on religious liberty, "Why would they keep suing you?"

In closing: Biden struck the pose of the used-car salesman trying to make a deal with a sucker: "Who you gonna trust, me or your lyin' eyes?" Ryan contrasted the two approaches, listing all of Obama's unkept promises, and saying, "The choice is clear: a stagnant economy that promotes more government dependency or a dynamic, growing economy that promotes opportunity and jobs. ... [W]e will not try to replace our founding principles. We will reapply our founding principles." That would indeed be an excellent place to start.

It's frightening that Joe Biden, the demented old fool that he is, is next in line to be president. I think the following pretty much sums up last night.

Joe Was the Only One Laughing

"If a wise man has an argument with a fool, the fool only rages and laughs, and there is no quiet." --Proverbs 29:9

I would like to add to this Most Americans are living from paycheck to paycheck what;' so funny Joe