Stop Obama's war on Capitalism!

The USA was never capitalist.

F Capitalism and F you too :)

Back to the loony bin with ya....

Joe...

Really? what is up with you guys...flying of the handle with some of the craziest sh1t I've ever heard.

Faux news has brainwashed ya'll....pretty sad, they got you on puppet strings.

Do you guys really trust a news company that gets kicked out of countries for lying to the general public???

yeah, Joe. It isn't like this is recent news or anything...

Do you decry Fox, CBS, ABC, NPR, and CNN for all their Pro Romney articles as being 'whores'? i didn't think so...

RedSuxDrool:

What 'destruction of the doctor patient relationship' are you talking about?

What 'war on America'?

You really do not have a clue - do you.

You think a team 16 games back rules and you actually want someone to take your inane comments seriously?

Joe in Albany

With all these anti-Romney/Ryan and anti-Republican stories on FR today, you really have to suspect that NBC and MSDNC just closed a multi-milliondollar ad buy from the Barry campaign and his Super PAC.

Whores.

Look in the mirror your GOPolitico copy and pastes are calling you one.

You think a team 16 games back rules and you actually want someone to take your inane comments seriously?

Ouch.

Of course, the rant above is to cover up the real problem--the GOP war on women.

Forceable rape?? Really, Ryan?

With all these anti-Romney/Ryan and anti-Republican

There is nothing anti-Romney/Ryan in this article. It simply points out where Ryan stands. Providing readers with a the candidates viewpoints is what readers need. If you find the facts repugnant, don't shoot the messenger.

Ryan has long been a strong opponent of abortion rights, who believes that life begins at conception.

And he has pursued and supported legislation that backs up those socially conservative view.

Albany Joe - It's not just FR. It is every news media outlet on TV, online, on the radio. Every one. That is how bad the GOP is screwing this up. They've done such a bang-up job, there isn't any better selling news stories. Myth Romney is going down. Period. The GOP is a wreck. Period. Good luck in 2016.

RedSoxRule

I see the voodoo doll is awake. What follows the pin that mommy sticks in your arm that cracks you smile so? The answer always lies within the question.

its not a war on women its just they are pro life

There is nothing pro-life about them. They are pro-zygote or more to the point, anti-abortion. If they were pro-life, they wouldn't attempt to pass legislation that puts women into prison for having an abortion. In case you were not aware, imprisoning women takes away life, liberty, and freedom. There is nothing pro-life about that.

All the republican/tea party has left is lies. By the way their acting on here. their heads are exploding & the walls are spattered with their brains.

I Can't: no its about control, and the best way to control women is by controlling their anatomy. Somebody that votes against equal work for equal should tell you something.

I've never understood the opposition to abortion or birth control, especially from people who believe in the death penalty or who think that giving kids a free school lunch are good ideas. I mean, why encourage life that you'll have no problem snuffing out once it's born?

Wouldn't you think that someone who thinks life is so important that it must be protected at conception would also value life when it's hungry or needs to attend school or the doctor?

Methinks the so called "conservatives" on this blog are getting nervous.

Abortion KILLS A LIVING BEING!

That is pure utter bullcrap. Define life, then we can discuss what is or is not a living being. I have cells in my body that pulsate, divide, multiply. Are those cells living beings? You are damn right I am pro-choice, because a living, breathing, woman will always have rights over a 'clump of cells' that can do NOTHING but multiply and divide.

me1234567891

Come on Bart and NBC are you really nitpicking the inclusion of forcible in a legal document? As far as legalities go they have to be as clear as possible about what they mean. Using the term 'forcible' helps to differentiate it from other forms of rape, like statutory, that are not necessarily forcible in that sense.

All rape is forcible!!!!!

The Republicans are pro-birth, not pro-life. They don't give a @!$%# about "the life" after it leaves the birth canal.

C. Smith

RedDevPS,

You've just shown you are so irrationally pro-choice that you can't speak in clear reason. Abortion KILLS A LIVING BEING! This is clear through biology alone. Whether it's a human soul with human rights may be debatable, but that it is a unique homo sapien life is flat out FACT.

This is the division between pro-life and pro-choice: pro-choice says that a fetus is just a lump of cells, living only in the strictest biological sense, and not truly human yet (despite a lack of definition of what 'truly human' is). If this is right, the arguments of the right are flat out ridiculous. Pro-life, on the other hand, says that the unborn child is still a human being, with human rights. If this is right, the arguments of the left are flat out monstrous.

Even in cases of rape or incest, would you kill an innocent baby just because his or her existence may cause the mother emotional pain? If the fetus is a human being, that's what abortion is.

Oh, and prison doesn't take away life, only freedom. People still live in prison, and they live when they get out. Now, if abortion were a capital crime, like some other murders are in some places...

Abortion KILLS A LIVING BEING! This is clear through biology alone.

No its not abortion does not kill a living being--a living being would be able to survive outside of the womb.

C. Smith when someone has an abortion, why don't you take that baby and raise it? Oh wait you can't because it is not a baby and is not viable.

Please tell me how a zygote can have the same rights as a living person, can they vote? Can they get a gun? (it is their second amendment right, is it not?)

See how ridiculous that sounds? If you don't believe in abortion don't have one. It's as simple as that.

Well, here in Oklahoma the law states that life begins with the phrase, "Hey baby, can I buy you a drink?" So, you can't go by the quaint local customs here. We're still mired in the politics and social pressures of the mid 19th century.

But here's the kicker, Ryan is married to a young woman from Madill, Oklahoma who is a cousin to our former Senior Senator David Boren (D). You've got to wonder what SHE'S thinking right now that her husband is the go-standard-bearer for the RED WHITE AND BLUE HE-MAN Woman-haters party.

Obama/Biden 2012

Feels like MSNBC is FORCIBLY RAPING the American public with your LACK of impartial reporting.

Obama doesn't need to spend a dime, MSNBC is doing all his bidding for him.

steve click on this link; tell me what you think is going on there. I would love to hear.

Republicans believe that life begins at the moment of erection.

If Republicans were so pro-life more of them would criticize the NRA and its insane belief that no child should be left--without a Glock or AK47. If they were pro-life they would be against the death penalty. If they were so pro-life why not cut a few hundred billion out of DOD. Nope, the Republicans are pro-life right up to the moment you are born and then baby you are on your own.

Well I see the GOP whine,bitch,piss and moan panty-waist patrol is out in full force today.

Effing shame the TRUTH has a liberal bias isn't it pussies?

I can picture the advertisement by a super PAC now: Have Akin's spoken words, then have a voice over saying that all reasonable people disagree with Akin, but how about Ryan. Then sight the source of Ryan sponsoring the this stupid abortion bill. Slam dunk! Damn, I should get paid for this.

Anyway, I have no idea why the GOP who is always screaming about freedom, is always the first to try and restrict other people that do not think like them. Rape is a violent and cruel act forcibly or not.

@me1234567891,

Rape is Rape Stupid.

And I hope it never happens to you or any female in your family.

Gotta love Romney and Ryan's handlers. They are present an apple (welfare argument is bogus, medicare correction makes medicare worse, or Ryan drafted many bills with "forcible rape" in them) and the answer you get is: that's not really an apple, it's an orange.

They deny the truth, twist it, or discount it, despite the evidence.

Is this the best they've got?

Forcing a woman to have a baby that is a result of rape, incest or threat to the life of the mother represents a war on women. Particularly when the same people that want to limit a woman's access to abortion (which is legal in the US by the way...) and to contraception are the same people who want to cut aid to dependent children or any programs to assist these families. The extreme right wing nuts will next try to legislate that life begins at erection. Hope they have a painful one that lasts over 4 hours.

And the hits just keep on coming, folks. The GOP has become so steeped in nostalgia, that this year instead of a serious national campaign, they decided to put on a remake of the Keystone Cops - starring The Three Stooges: Romney, Ryan, and Aikin (he replace the original Curly - Donald Trump). I think that storm bearing down on the gulf is the least of the GOP's problems.

Ryan believes that abortions should not be legal for victims of forcible rape, statutory rape, or any other kind of rape. New York Magazine

Ryan has the same antiabortion position as Akin — no exceptions — and some of the nearly 40 abortion bills he has co-sponsored have provided no exemption for rape victims. Ryan has already surrendered that position. “Look, I’m proud of my record,” he told reporters on his plane.

When Todd Akin sneezes, Paul Ryan catches a cold. "The difference between Ryan’s views and Akin’s could fit on a Post-it note. Per Dana Milibank

What an amazing idea the Pubs have come up with. Maybe there should be like 10 shades of rape. That way if you judge a woman's attire to be too revealing and you rape her, it is obvious that it was her fault and the clothing is to blame.

Yeah, that was sarcasm. This aint... the Pubs are like Diet Taliban.

Mitt Romney has made Robert Bork a chairman of his Justice Advisory Committee. Mr. Bork’s position in Mr. Romney’s legal team says a great deal about the type of conservative judge for Supreme Court that he will select if he wins the presidency this November.

Romney picked Mr. Bork for his legal views, the choice is disturbing. Mr. Bork to be on the wrong side of many settled legal issues:

• He opposed to 1964 Civil Rights Act.
• He believes that women have no right to contraception.
• He wants to ban art and science; and he believes that government can criminalize sex.
• He believes No Constitutional Protection for Women: Bork also claimed that the Constitution does not shield women from gender discrimination.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2011/08/03/286134/romney-bork-unsurpassed-ugliness/?mobile=nc

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/27/opinion/robert-bork-romney-standard-bearer.html

• It seems Paul Ryan is just like Romney --- change what you say depending on who you're talking to. Deny what you did in the past. Flip-flop, flip-flop, flip-flop, flip-flop again and again and again.

Regarding Roman Polanski's alleged sexual assault of a minor, Whoopi Goldberg said “I know it wasn't rape-rape. I think it was something else, but I don't believe it was rape-rape.”

Can you imagine the outcry from Dem/Libs if a Republican had said that? You don’t have to imagine it, just look what they’re doing with Akins comment.

If Obama had uttered the words "legitimate rape", the Dem/Libs would say something like, "We know what you meant Mr. President. We understand. We know you mis-spoke. It's OK."

There would be millions of injured liberals as they were all trampled climbing over each other to be at the head of the pack making excuses for him.

Seems I remember Bill Clinton paying Paula Jones $850,000.00 to settle a sexual harassment lawsuit that Clinton claimed had no merit. But of course, if you’re a Democrat, coming clean isn’t an issue.

The stench of the hypocrisy literally reeks.

See how ridiculous that sounds? If you don't believe in abortion don't have one. It's as simple as that.

Spot on! But as we all know the GOP fell into the absurd column when St. Ronnie made the deal with the religious right.

C. Smith:

Abortion KILLS A LIVING BEING!

So does a flyswatter. What's your point?

Pro-life, on the other hand, says that the unborn child is still a human being, with human rights. If this is right, the arguments of the left are flat out monstrous.

I guess it's a good thing there's absolutely nothing to objectively support that assertion, then!

At Andie469 you said

"No its not abortion does not kill a living being--a living being would be able to survive outside of the womb".

O really? If this is your criteria then we should be able to kill new born babies because they can not survive very long without someone feeding them and taking care of them. And what about sick and old people? Maybe we should be able to kill anyone who cannot "survive outside of the womb" on their own.

Newsflash -

"the unborn" can't live as "me and you". That is a physical impossibility. Fetuses can not live as "me and you". That is no argument at all. It is utter nonsense.

@Vote - more abortions are performed by mother nature than by man. Are you going to charge mother nature with murder?

Red

Actually, the personhood amendments could lead to women who have miscarriages being investigated to be sure it wasn't actually an abortion. It would also outlaw contraceptive methods such as IUDs and hormonal birth control, because these interfere with the implantation of a fertilized egg. And proponents are vague about what, exactly, would happen to a woman and her doctor if it was determined that she did have an abortion. They don't come right out and say that there would be prosecutions for murder, but as Ryan said "If it's illegal, it's illegal."

I Cant, its about control as I stated above, the me and you, nonsense, its me that you are living off. My Body, My Incubator, My Bedroom, ryan etal, stay out and go do something useful, such as: care for the dumpster babies, care for the starved, abused, throw-away kids, the exploited, give moms access to good prenatal care, neo-natal care. access to good women's health clinic/physicians.

Obama 2012

C. Smith No at first they do not have a body or a heart or brain, that develops after time but in the months weeks of pregnancy those things do not exist.

Oh you help these people through your church, good for you. That makes you feel all warm inside, you tithe to your church as is demanded by your religion and you think that makes you a good person. How many babies that you force to be born have you adopted?

Er... question. These were forcible rape laws? Is there such a thing as consentual rape? Or are these clowns just trying to slip in another implication that some rape is just not rape. Like some "family values" folks just are not family values folks. Just askin'...

Welcome to the 2012 invention convention. The humanizing of two turds from the GOP

Ryan's trying to squirm his way out of the Republican Party platform, which opposes abortion in ALL circumstances. It's sheer hypocrisy.

And let's not forget that once a fetus becomes viable and is born, the baby and its mother are on their own come hell or high water, as far as Ryan and his Party are concerned.

How come Republicans want no abortions, yet take away food stamps, single mother supports, and even educational opportunities for these children?

If Republicans are the party of life, why don't they support the lives they want to bring into this world?

And the once Grand Old Party shoots itself Again in its foot. The Teaparty is the cause of the

Death of the 2 party system. SAD

What kind of story would you expect from NBC (First Read)? Why not "I'M IN FAVOR OF RAPE" -- would that make a good story? Print the news and stop the spin.

You have to understand the Republican mind first they say it,hmmm sounds good,then they do it,ohhhhhhhhhhh,then they think about it, noooooo we didn't, then it's everybody else's fault for not stopping them

And he did a lot better than GW.

He probably wants to make it legal to rape women and kids as well. Anyone that supports raping women that end up pregnant and forced to have the rapist child them self is a rapist imo.

People like Ryan and Robme makes me sick.

Obama 2012

no protect the unborn so they can live just as me and you.

Does that include the unborn resulting from rape or incest? What about the mother's rights? Do you think the unborn have more rights or autonomy than the woman in question?

what about the baby's body? Yes, it needs your body to live, but it has it's own body, it's own heart, it's own brain, and it's own blood type.

It does not have the right to live off its host if the woman doesn't want it to. No one is required to donate their body to support another if they do not want!

Either it isn't human at all, and any abortion until some arbitrary 'now-its-human' point should be on-demand without question

The point of fetal viability is considered the "now-it's-human" point of cutoff, except in cases of fetal demise or health threat to the mother's life. Abortions can be performed "on demand" before that point, depending on individual state laws.

or it is human and killing it is killing a human being just because that human being needs you.

Early stage abortions is not considered "killing."

@sawyer,

yes there is. consensual sex (non forced) with an underage person is still a rape. it need not be violent.

the inarticulate akin was trying to describe violent rape when he said "legitimate". i understood that the first day this broke. too much focus on what was an awkward word choice and not enough on the lie that the violence tends to prevent conception. this untruth used to justify denying abortion to all, including rape victims is the most offensive aspect of his statement.

this clown, who aspires to the "mainstream "u.s. senate uses a "fanatic fringe" argument and doesn't have a clue why most of the country is upset with him.

It's really sad to see the Romney/Ryan and the GOP shoot themselves in the foot again. But, it's even more sad as they do it when both feet are in their mouth.

This little bastard, Paul Ryan, is one helluva piece of sorry work. Gwaddamn republicans must be taught to keep their uninvited legislative hands off women's crotches!

Why is it that the Republicans want the government to keep its nose out of people's business unless it's between a woman's legs?

yosolo - Did you know that the GOP party platform supports outlawing abortion even in the case of rape or incest?

Did you know that the Democratic party platform says, "Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare."?

That's the real choice.

It's really sad to see the Romney/Ryan and the GOP shoot themselves in the foot again.

It's really the policies of Ryan and the Republican party that are the problem.

So if you subscribe, for example, to Harry Reid’s claim that Mitt Romney cheated on his taxes for ten years, wouldn’t you want to provide proof of that claim? (If you’re a fair-minded, intelligent American capable of rational thought I’m sure you see the difference between providing evidence that a presidential candidate has cheated on his taxes for ten years and saying that because he hasn’t supplied more than the usual two years of tax returns he must be guilty of something.)

Harry Reid made no such claim, nor did he say any such thing. For an apparently rational-minded person, you've missed the boat entirely. Reid said he had been told by a reputable source that Romney hadn't paid any income taxes in that time frame, not that he had cheated on his taxes. There are perfectly legal ways to avoid taxes (many Americans pay little or no income tax, Google it), and Reid never even suggested that Romney had broken the law. Try actually fact-checking your comments before making them.

Well is anyone really surprised by the republicans thinking that there are different degrees of rape? I mean we have had legislation in Virginia by a republican dominated general assembly making it law to force a woman to undergo a vaginal probe sonogram prior to obtaining an abortion, that sounds a little like rape doesn't it, a probe inserted into a woman's vagina mandated by law. According to Rush Limbaugh, a leading spokesman for the republicans, any woman wishing to have access to birth control in their medical insurance, is a "slut" and should be made to make a video of herself having sex, so that republican men like himself may enjoy watching it.

They sound very creepy and misogynistic, if they are elected to office look for these laws and outrages to continue.

the inarticulate akin was trying to describe violent rape when he said "legitimate". i understood that the first day this broke.

No, calling him inarticulate is just making excuses for the fact that Akin is an ignorant piece of @!$%#.

In 31 statse the rapist has parental rights and the rape victim must go to court to prevent the rapist from having sole or partial custody. If the rape victim wants to put the child up for adoption the rapist must be notified. What universie are these lawmakers living in? Faced with a lifetime of confrontation with a rapist what women would not want to end the whole situation - who wants to be a parent partner with her rapist?

As I've said before, Republicans have some unusual ideas about different grades of rape. It is one of the subjects that must not be talked about to the press, but is , in fact all too widespread in the party.

Republicans want Government completely out of the way when businesses are involved, but they continue to believe that people's lives need to be controled by their form of government. When Republicans talk about 'freedom' it is a sick joke.

The smart thing to do is vote these idiots out. We need to elect people who will check their religious beliefs at the door and not make political decisions on it. Also is their any other kind of rape that's not forced? Rape is rape! It once takes once to get pregnant and though organism increases the chance of pregnancy it is a necessity to have for the results.

Did anyone read the whole article? You know, the last paragraph where MSNBC finally explains why the word "forcible" was used (to distinguish it from "statutory" rape)?

It's sad that Ryan, Romney and even Akin are criticized and mocked because they believe life begins at conception. If you've ever had a miscarriage you know that what you lost was a baby, a small human, you might have named it and you may have even buried it.

Abortion should remain legal and in fact most restrictions should be lifted. When I miscarried my doctor couldn't preform the D&C necessary until we had waited the appropriate time to have hormone levels return to prepregnancy levels because if he did it was considered an abortion in the eyes of the law.

Abortion should remain legal (and it will, that horse has left the barn) but don't make me pay for your mistake. Birth control is cheap and available so use it. I don't mind paying for birth control but I don't want the money I earn to go to help you kill a life. It's not about the money, it's about being complicit in murder.

What Akin said was moronic and I'm not defending him. But if you continued with the sound bite you'd hear that he said there were many victims of rape and that the baby that might result from rape shouldn't be punished.

Is there such a thing as consentual rape?

The very fact this question is asked and approved of by many on this board shows they are too ignorant to form a coherent opinion on the topic. In some states if a 17 year old has sex with a 15 year old it is statutory rape even if consent is given. There are quite a few other instances where rape can involve consent or lack of force (look it up, not my job to educate you pople). "Forcible rape" is a term as old as statutory law and is valid when used. The whole controversy here about the term is ignorant and politically motivated. Of course, the clueless hop on the hysteria and yack out of ignorance....

Yosolo...politicians lie.

The only potentially workable tactic the Democrats have in this campaign is to spread as much fear and as many lies as possible. They have no ethics and no morals.

Joe in Albany

With all these anti-Romney/Ryan and anti-Republican stories on FR today, you really have to suspect that NBC and MSDNC just closed a multi-milliondollar ad buy from the Barry campaign and his Super PAC.

Whores.

So, instead of defending your heroes, you choose to attack the messenger...no surprise there. As to the Whores comment; that seems to be the battle cry of the Republican party lately. It would appear you folks haven't figured out that women don't want to wear burqas, and they DO vote.

.

Let's see where this is going...

If life begins at conception, maybe the GOVERNMENT should prevent pregnant women from smoking cigarrettes or drinking alcohol.

Then the GOVM'ENT might have to house ALL the pregnant women into huge birthing camps (like good'ole NAZI germany, talk about some good ol' something) where WE (that bad ol' gov'mt) can watch over them because they can't be trusted to take care of their, sorry, OUR bodies, because they don't own them, WE do and we know best how to take care of what we could NOW call the Vast Baby Production Industrial Complex, a national asset geared toward some..., Oh, nevermind. You wing nuts wear me out. I just can't muster the hyperbole....or is it hyperbole? Maybe its a future REALITY, another scary word.

Don't you get it? To control people's bodies, you have to start stoning them in the street like Talibanis, AND, that dead woman's body is the only one you now control, go bury it.

I don't think they get it; actually didn't think they would, YEP, I'm definitely a pessimist.

yosolo:

Therefore, if you’re a fair-minded, intelligent American capable of rational thought, wouldn’t you want to fact-check pronouncements coming from both camps so you could judge for yourself?

If you still favor the Republicans after impartially checking and knowing all the facts, that says pretty terrible things about the ideals you hold as a person, just FYI.

yosolo:

Therefore, if you’re a fair-minded, intelligent American capable of rational thought, wouldn’t you want to fact-check pronouncements coming from both camps so you could judge for yourself?

If you still favor the Democrats after impartially checking and knowing all the facts, that says pretty terrible things about the ideals you hold as a person, just FYI.

Let me just throw another fly into the ointment and something for thought: Several years ago, back in the late '90s, I became pregnant. When I went for my first checkup at 8 weeks, the doc was unable to detect any signs of life at all (no heartbeat). My doc had told me that the pregnancy would not continue, and was considered to be a miscarriage. I was told that my body would expel the non-viable fetus on its own. THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN. After 6 weeks of carrying around a non-viable fetus, my doc made the decision to perform a D&C - I was getting physically sick as the weeks went on and frankly, the idea that I had to carry around a dead fetus inside of me and wait for my body to decide to expel it was doing a real number on my psychological health. After the D&C was done, my doc sent the fetus for genetic testing. The fetus had Trisomy 16, which is a fatal genetic error and life is inconsistent with that sort of DNA issue.

Now, would you righties consider me to be a baby-killer? I had a D&C, which is the same procedure that is performed in an early stage abortion. Should I have been subject to criminal penalties, since I had to have a medical procedure, like an abortion, to remove a dead fetus from inside of me? Would you really feel that I played a part in the demise of the fetus? The bottom line: It was MY decision to do what I needed to do to protect my health, and that decision was between ME AND MY DOCTOR, period.

I now have a daughter who is a teenager - I shudder to think that she may have to consider the possibilities of criminalization if the time comes that she has to make a difficult decision on whether or not to continue a pregnancy (or remove a non-viable fetus) that may seriously jeopardize her health, or for any other reason she deems appropriate.. This is insane and wrong...

Thinkforyourself.....All I had to hear was what Akin said and I pretty much made up my mind then and there rape is rape...there is no legitimate,forcible or anything else..inmy mind rape is rape so therefore:

Obama/Biden 2012

50 million plus babies killed in the US since Roe v Wade. For all of you who says a "fetus" is not a life, ARE YOU 100% positive? If you were going to blow up a building but there was a 1% chance someone (a life) might be in it, you are not 100% positive though, would you blow it up anyway?

50 million + dead babies. less than 1% due to rape or incest. Hitler killed over 11 million Jews because he believed they were not "viable human beings". We have sacrificed 50 million plus babies at the altar of convenience, so called "women's rights" (what about the right of the unborn women to LIVE) and profit. Where is the outrage? And we wonder why we have people gunning down people inside movie theatres. Sanctity of life is a basic building block of civil society. It is not a matter of religious beliefs; it's a matter of conscience.

180movie.com it might just change your mind

I believe the word 'violently' was used to emphasize the horror of being raped, not as a qualifier.

Unlike Republicans, who just believe that women routinely lie about being raped to cover up illicit sex that got them pregnant. Or to differentiate 'violent' rape from statutory rape, because a 13 year-old girl who is lured into sexual activity by an older man is just a little hussy who got what she deserved.

Read it again. It means all rapes are violent. Akin and Ryan would like to believe some rapes are not.

A. Guy isn't running for senate of VP.

B. He was expressing what Ryan and Akin created in the bill; a division of rape into categories. Learn to comprehend what you read. Ryan and Akin want to limit abortion to only minors of rape. If they truly believe that a couple cells are a person, even that is insanely evil. If they don't then they are being evil against women for votes. Which is it?

On a personal note; I think there are many different levels of rape, but they are all rape and should be treated as such. We should not confuse the subject and victimise females that have suffered rape. We should support them to the fullest; and that is giving them choice.

Actually, there are a few cases of "non-violent" rape.

For instance, if a girl drinks too much and passes out, having sex with her is technically not violent, but it is rape and it is vile.

Also, there's statutory rape.

Your mistaken. Statutory rape includes those "incapable of consent" due to age. There is some variance state to state, but most treat the intentional drug induced unconscious condition as an act equal to "force". I have been a prosecutor over 20 years.

I agree that it's "force", but people were saying "all rapes are violent."

It looks like we'll be talking about abortion at the GOP convention..........

This War On Woman is much more than "Rape" its equal wages, equal opportunity in the work place,

its health care (including birth control & Abotion) Its equal education, Its CHOICE. Who do these guys think they are?

Woman are getting Mad as Hell with the party of NO. We are going to say NO to them in November.

Are these the two who were caught at the rest stop?They will be talking abortion at the GOP abomination

arnold,

we are not looking at forcible in a legal context. we are looking at it in terms of the alleged contraceptive qualities the violence confers to the victim. that is why akin inarticulately used the word "legitimate" differentiating it from consensual rape where violence is absent.

maridanne - Are you not worried about a Senator who believes in the "alleged contraceptive qualities the violence confers to the victim"?

Or the fact that he's currently on the House Science Committee?

that is why akin inarticulately used the word "legitimate" differentiating it from consensual rape where violence is absent.

"Consensual rape"? Ever heard the phrase, "You can't rape the willing?" If it's consensual, it's not rape. Seriously, what are you talking about? There is literally no such thing as "consensual rape." Good grief! You're as "inarticulate" (to use your word) as Akin!

Republicans do want a woman who is pregnant from a rape to have a choice. Have the baby or go to prison.

Guy @ 3: You are a typical Liberal who does not read the Article, but only the headline, and then makes up facts to support his "position". Nothing you say @ 3 is supported by the Article !! The Article clearly says that Ryan supported abortion in cases of "forcible rape" and nowhere does it say that he joined with Akin on anything. People like you make me sick. You cater to those who are to lazy to read the Article, but skim the comments. That's how your get you LIES to stick.

You are despicable !!

Your mistaken. Statutory rape includes those "incapable of consent" due to age. There is some variance state to state, but most treat the intentional drug induced unconscious condition as an act equal to "force". I have been a prosecutor over 20 years.

The guy wasn't talking about intentional drugging, he was talking about 2 people partying and one passing out. There is no force but you can still have rape. I for one think drugs receive too little notice as "force", drugging someone can be extremely dangerous and in my mind is the equivelant of using a gun to commit an act of rape as a measure of force.

As to you armchair lawyers, stop equating a lack of force with consensual. Force is an aggravating factor in many crimes. Moreover different levels of force can have different levels of aggravation. Crud, the lefties on this board are particularly clueless.

LOL MDrn!!!

Regarding Roman Polanski's alleged sexual assault of a 13 year-old, Whoopi Goldberg said “I know it wasn't rape-rape. I think it was something else, but I don't believe it was rape-rape.”

That Whoopi is one hard-core conservative alright.

Gil-2872519

Guy @ 3: You are a typical Liberal who does not read the Article, but only the headline, and then makes up facts to support his "position". Nothing you say @ 3 is supported by the Article !! The Article clearly says that Ryan supported abortion in cases of "forcible rape" and nowhere does it say that he joined with Akin on anything. People like you make me sick. You cater to those who are to lazy to read the Article, but skim the comments. That's how your get you LIES to stick.

You are despicable !!

No Gil, you and your entire misogynist party are despicable. So, If a woman is violently raped your and your pal Mr. Ryan are ok with an abortion...so how about statutory rape? How about incest? How about the life of the mother?...better yet, how about you just respect the law! Again we have another example of the American Taliban attempting to legislate their religious views on the rest of us.

Ol Doc @3.19: Re-read mine @3.16. Did I ever express an opinion on abortion or rape? You are one of those Liberal a**sholes who I was describing. Make up facts to support your argument.

You are incapable of reading and spew lies (this time about me). Where did I support abortion, rape or statutory rape or oppose any of it. From what I wrote you do not even know if I'm in favor of rape or against it? I do not know why I argue with ignorance, as I know educating illiterates is for grade schools.

hs321:

Regarding Roman Polanski's alleged sexual assault of a 13 year-old, Whoopi Goldberg said “I know it wasn't rape-rape. I think it was something else, but I don't believe it was rape-rape.”

If she was referring to the charge of which he was actually convicted, she was correct. I don't remember the actual name of it either, but what he was convicted of was something other than rape.

One thing that never seems to get talked about is spousal rape. It's still rape - why doesn't it get mentioned?

Gil....Ryan has supported antiabortion bills that provide zero exemptions for rape victims. Like I said Ryan equals Akin. He is struggling to change his stance but he cant lie himself out of this.

Ryan does not deny that he holds the same beliefs as Akin--as indeed, the Republican party platform--that abortion is unacceptable in ANY case, including rape, incest, or danger to the mother's health/life. This last part is the most serious part to me. How ironic that a person like Ryan, who says, "I'm proud of my pro-life record" would support a policy that disregards a mother's life. It's OK for us to allow a woman to carry a baby to term that will severely harm her or possibly kill her? How is that a pro-life stance???

Ryan and Akin are peas in a pod-both extreme thinking politicians who does not believe in science or school-why do you think they don't want people not to go to college?,they are lobbyists for the prison owners

Daniel A. Brown

"Pro-Life" is just a code phrase to cover their medieval terror of women being in control of their own sexuality. In this, they aren't much different than the Taliban.

QFT. You'd think that after thousands of years of men deciding the fate of women, we'd have moved beyond the need to impose tyrannical statutes covering reproductive rights...

There is no "Pro-Life" wing in the GOP. They are ALL for war and poverty, the biggest takers of human life. They are all "anti-choice" unless that choice relates to the regulation of corporations. Oddly, the GOP is uniformly against ANY HUMAN BEINGS having a choice and FOR CORPORATIONS having a choice.

Note that this is NOT liberal propaganda. Read the PLATFORM. I said that but, you know what? I CAN'T FIND IT! The GOP is SO afraid of it, they seem to have HIDDEN the PLATFORM! You would think it would be at http://www.gopplatform2012.com but they have NO LINKS to the ACTUAL DOCUMENT!

It must be as full of political problems for them as MITT ROMNEY'S TAX RETURNS!

Rape doesn't involve "choice".

Really Steve...why is that?

TO: Steve-446003 who wrote:

"I'm all for Pro-Choice.... the CHOICE to have SEX or not...... once a child is conceived, the CHOICE is OVER..."

It's not up to you, Steve.

once a child is conceived, the CHOICE is OVER......

Nope. the woman still has a choice.

I'm all for Pro-Choice

Apparently, you're not!

Republicans don't GET idiots, they ARE idiots.

This War On Woman is much more than "Rape" its equal wages, equal opportunity in the work place, its health care (including birth control & Abotion) Its equal education, Its CHOICE. Who do these guys think they are? Woman are getting Mad as Hell with the party of NO. We are going to say NO to them in November.

First, have you ever been to an anti abortion rally? Seems to be a whole LOT of women at them. Second, for every study indicating there is AT LEAST one that says it is a myth. No valid study that actually compares people in similar fields with similar education and seniority finds any meaningful wage gap. The so called "gender parity" laws that try to equate wages solely with education level are a complete and utter joke that have no reality in the law of supply and demand. One woman told me a teacher should make as much as a nurse simply because they had equal educations. NOT!!!! Third, your equal education comment is a complete and utter laugher. women get undergrad and advanced degrees at MUCH higher rates than men. MY daughetr attended a school that was 70% female and that is pretty standard at non-elite institutions or at science/engineering school. Women have almost taken over the professions too. Fourth, women use a much, much higher portion of our total health care dollars in the USA than is representative for their portion of the population. Worse, they demand wasteful spending on politically motivated areas like breast cancer than these diseases are an actual threat to their health. A woman will freak out about breast cancer and totally forget they are more likely to die of a heart attack. The money wasted on administering the "Pink" campaign could be better spent elsewhere, but then again, those activists would have to go and get a real job.

Back to your NOW blog because you definately have zero clue how the reall world works.

Right on Daniels! you hit the between the eyes.

Right on Daniels! you hit the nail between the eyes.

Chris--I feel sorry for your daughter. You are minimizing the very real discrimination women often face in the workplace. Just look at our government--we've never had a female president or even vice-president. Women are under-represented in Congress as well. Perhaps if we had more women in government, we might not have ridiculous bills like the ones Ryan has supported.

You really know very little about the wage disparity, which continues despite the educational accomplishments of women. Yes, it is getting smaller for white women. However, it's much wider for women of color. These women also have fewer opportunities for advancement despite their qualifications. It's really dumb on the part of businesses--they don't pick the best, most qualified person because they feel more comfortable working with a man. There's a suit (not the first one) filed against Chik-fil-A right now because they fired a veteran female employee once she got to the managerial level--her supervisor felt she should stay home with her three kids. She's a single mom who has been working for a long time, with good evaluations. Why should she quit now? Who is going to pay the bills? This is not an isolated case, unfortunately.

I'm pro-choice just to keep it as a motivation to do exactly that. Once abortion is illegal, there's no more motivation to deal with the real problem; 20 years of supporting an unwanted child who has pretty good odds of ending up in jail or dead anyway.

I would consider outlawing abortion (with exceptions) if the following things were done to offset overturning Roe Vs. Wade:

1. Protect the right for women to use birth control.

2. Institute a higher level of education for everybody, including poor kids.

3. Provide a legitimate health care system for everybody, including poor kids.

Without doing those three things, outlawing abortion would result in disastrous consequences. As with everything else, you can't have it both ways.

You are correct, Free Thinker, these people aren't Christians.They talk a good game but actions speak louder. The Catholic Church is after Ryan for his unChristian views of throwing the poor and elderly under the GOP-richman's bus. Good bye to food stamps, Medicaid and healthcare for poor children. Funny, the same children they want to claim they will have "saved" from being aborted can join the others in the gutter of poverty. After they are born they become so much unwanted trash. Then there is much controversy over whether Romney is a true Christian at all, being a Morman.

I'm not at all a fan of abortion, it must be a desperate woman who feels she has to have one. Here we have the Republicans meddling in a woman's decision without offering a solution and in fact taking away any possible support previously offered. In fact closing birth control clinics like Planned Parent parenthood, actually talking about making some forms of birth control illegal, gutting welfare and food stamp programs and Medicaid. No, not Christain, no human compassion here either. Greed.

peanut, no one's talking about outlawing adoptions or safe-haven laws. No one's mandating that the mother raise the child for 20 years.

Upset,

1. I love, so long as you mean their right to USE them, and not a right to get them for free.

2. would be prohibitively expensive and likely a waste in the current US. The reality is that the biggest demand for jobs in the US today is for skilled tradesmen, who usually earn their positions through apprenticeships, not schooling.

3. I suggest, and have several times, that we replace Obamacare with a single-payer, mandatory, 100% coverage health plan for ALL Americans that covers routine and preventative care only. Flu shots, immunizations, regular check-ups, routine pre-natal care, etc. It's the only thing all the experts agree would actually bring DOWN the cost of healthcare. Is that good enough?

You can say that last part C. Smith, but you know the reps would never go with it. It it would have been up to the left solely, then a single payer would have had a chance of making it through.

As to the right to use them and not for free statement. I agree. But, no one should have the right to take them from an employees plan!!!

Ryan is not throwing anyone under the bus. He does not believe in public transportation. He's throwing them under the wheels of Romneys Cadillacs.

C. Smith

You do realize that when you say 'for free' about getting contraceptives, what you are really describing is where there is no 'out of pocket' expense at the time of purchase, right? That is similar to the notion that you can go and get wellness checkups 'for free' (as in, for no out of pocket expense at the time of purchase).

In order to get insurance to cover contraceptives without out of pocket expenses, you have to HAVE insurance first, and that doesn't come without paying premiums. By eliminating out of pocket expenses for something, you actually create an incentive to use it. There is an incentive to get a wellness exam because, hey, you've already paid for it and it doesn't cost anything extra, might's well go get one! Similar thinking for contraception. It's no extra cost, why not go ahead and use it.

This whole 'for free' meme you're pushing there, it just has no basis in fact. Try to keep that in mind.

When Romney/Ryan get the Personhood law passed, there will be a big bin in front of congress where women can drop off unwanted babies. And, people who want a baby can pick one up. When a baby has been there for 5 days or more - well, you don't want to know what they do with those babies.

@Jeanne Donaldson

Jeanne all evangelical denominations and the catholic church regard Mormonism as a heresy, if elected Romney will become this nation's first recognizable Heretic In Chief.

Evangelicals should be clamoring to re-elect Obama just on the basis that he is Christian.

C.Smith said:

1. I love, so long as you mean their right to USE them, and not a right to get them for free.

Nothing's free. Everything has a price. We pay those heath insurance premiums--in my case, it's taken out of my paycheck before I even see it, so no, not getting it for free. I'm still paying for it. I had my tubes tied after my second child was born but take contraceptives to regulate my period and alleviate symptoms--without them I turn into a Jekyll-and-Hyde personality.

2. would be prohibitively expensive and likely a waste in the current US. The reality is that the biggest demand for jobs in the US today is for skilled tradesmen, who usually earn their positions through apprenticeships, not schooling.

My boss is on the boards of several workforce investment programs in my municipality. You know what the biggest demand is for? People who WANT to work. We have programs here for the unemployed and none of this matters if the person DOESN'T WANT TO WORK. Many employers looking for candidates are willing to train people IF they want to work. I got hired from a temp firm, I came in with absolutely no white-collar job experience at all...my previous job was a 7-11 night clerk in gang territory. My only qualification was that I type 120 wpm. I don't have college, and I have a 3 year prison record with Immigration. I begged for the job, demonstrated that i was willing to work and do whatever they asked, and now, three years later, I'm technical writer, patents and trademarks manager, research assistant, they paid for my training to be a biometrics technician, and janitor.

3. I suggest, and have several times, that we replace Obamacare with a single-payer, mandatory, 100% coverage health plan for ALL Americans that covers routine and preventative care only. Flu shots, immunizations, regular check-ups, routine pre-natal care, etc. It's the only thing all the experts agree would actually bring DOWN the cost of healthcare. Is that good enough?

Covers routine and preventative care only? So if I have an accident, my insurance should not cover part of the cost? Took my children to the roller rink ealier this year--bent my elbow the wrong way when I fell, completely shattered the whole joint. Needed surgery--pins and screws. It was partially covered by my insurance...which I paid for. If I'm going to pay for health insurance premiums I should get to say what that premium is going to pay for.

Ok, that is funny!! Cheers!!

You're right Rob and Tim. Enjoy the GOP circus.

Romney has flip flopped on everything else. Maybe he will flip flop on Ryan if the polls don't start looking better. There is still hope for Rob and Tim.

"forcible" as opposed to "statutory" rape AND (any and all) incest is what was referred to in the article. I think you're reading it incorrectly.

Yes, but the distinction is absurd. Typical GOP. Blame the victim and then RE-VICTIMIZE.

Jeepers. When will all the REASONABLE PEOPLE come to their senses and see what the GOP is really all about? They are not hiding it THAT well...

SRS, do you know what 'statutory rape' is? It's concensual sex where one or both parties are slightly under the age of consent. Usually with something like 3-5 years between them. Think an 18 year old guy has (consensual) sex with his 17-and-11-months girlfriend, or an 18 year old girl with her 16 year old boyfriend. Then the older one get's thrown in jail and registered as a sex offender because they couldn't wait until the arbitrarily-decided, government required age of 'consent'. That's not rape. Not as you mean it, not as I mean it, and not as Akin meant it. But it is rape according to government law. If you don't want to cover that in a bill, you have to write the terminology to distinguish against it.

Do you not understand the way LAW is written? Words have HUGE meanings in a courtroom. Of course, the left never cares about what the law says until they need to HIDE behind it............

Neither of your examples would qualify anywhere as statutory rape (they don't even meet your criteria of even a 3 year difference in age). Now a 20 year old man and a 15 year old girl, yep, that qualifies. Or a 50 year old man and aforementioned 15 year old girl. Now that 15 year old girl would be up the creek if she got pregnant though, unless of course the 50 year old man happened to be her grandfather. Because they think girls under the age of consent need to carry any and all pregnancies to term that aren't caused by incest. Because everyone knows if a young girl gets pregnant, well it's because she's a slut anyway.

SRS, do you know what 'statutory rape' is? It's concensual sex where one or both parties are slightly under the age of consent.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. If a person is below the legal age of consent, then the sex cannot, by definition, be legally consensual. What is wrong with you people. Do you even think when you write this stuff? Statutory rape is called that because it is sex without legal consent -- because one of the persons involved is not old enough to legally give it!

Incest is sex between two family members. If two people with teenage children from different marriages get married and the two teens have consensual sex, they have committed incest.

You extremist can keep trying to paint everything as black and white, but life just isn't.

Enough...don't know what state you live in, but the age differences vary by state. Sorry, not black and white.

Think, two people can have consensual sex (layman's definition) and it not be consensual sex (legal definition). From the context, it seems more logical Smith was referring to the first.

Rape is rape, right? Just like killing someone is killing someone. You know, your cell rings and you look down to see who's calling and run over someone on a bike. You killed someone, so you should get the death penalty just like a pedophile who plans for weeks to abduct a child, does so and then kills them.

Nice try, but as this article states (did you read it?), "The Ryan-Johnson failed amendment did specify limited exceptions, permitting abortion coverage including when the life of the mother is at stake, and in line 16 of the proposed text, "...unless the pregnancy is the result of an act of forcible rape or incest." That is an amendment specifically added by Ryan and Johnson to a bill because they wanted to draw the line between types of "rape." Disgusting, but part of the official record. Yes, it was dropped from the final bill, but Ryan was one of the two CongressMEN who put i in there in the first place.

Of all possible running mates, Romney chooses someone who only confirms that the GOP is fighting AGAINST women.

Hmmm... sounds like the washignton beacon is a great source for propaganda. Obama campaign made Ryan sponsor a bill so they could attack him on it... Comedy!!! HR 3 sponsored by Akin and Ryan limits the definition of rape to "forcible rape". Can you tell me what that means exactly?

Look at you repugnican trolls... upset that the usually docile democraps (e.g. John kerry taking swift boat in the butt and not even wimpering about it) are attacking Mittens and Ryan on their political platform. All you can do is, like Redsox (who actually suck HAHA go O's) Rule and Joe in Albany is try to distract from the point of the article by spouting nonsense...

BoSox ain't making the playoffs HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

notliborcon, 'forcible' rape means not statutory rape, which to most people isn't considered rape as it's consensual sex.

Oh, and war on women? Really? Only if you follow the National Organization of Women's definition of women, in which only liberal women count. Conservative women are almost exclusively pro-life, and some (few) liberal women are, too. The truth is that pro-life/pro-choice is split about the same among women as it is among men. It's a war on liberalism, not women.

They ARE extreme! And some of the loudest noise regarding Aikin's remarks isn't coming from the Democrats, the Republicans are doing a fine job of tearing Aikin apart even though he has said nothng a whole lot different than was said before. The Republican position on abortion is certainly not new and has been out there for months. Yes Aikin used a stupid word, "ligitimate" , but the message is pure Republican retoric and is even announced to be in the GOP convention platform. No wonder Aikin is confused, he thought he was toeing the party line. All the big-wigs in his party are on his case to get him to quit running. Don't blame the Democrats for being handed all this ammunition free for the taking, Romney IS out of touch with his tax dodging tactics, his inability to know how ordinary people have to cope with living pay check to pay check and his chamelion like ability to change his colors to match the currant background. The Republicnas have been their own worst enemies.

C. Smith Did you read any of the post's because you just don't get it.

Many Liberal Women like myself believe in CHOICE, are pro-life for ourselves, but don't want the government involved in our reproductive rights.

News flash abortions are legal, and to keep bringing up bills, to try to block access, or to make abortions illegal in some states, should be criminal!

As Robme has already stated he wants to get rid PP, so that is taking away many Women's access to affordable birth control, as well as pap smears, cancer screening's and prenatal care they now receive!

Look up what being a Liberal means via John F Kennedy! It's easy just google!

I tried and couldn't get past the hype, arrrgggghhhh. Read Choobs response Elephant's tool.

Obama 2012

i know that personally, i live in brownbackistan. (formerly kansas)

Republicans do not hate women. They just feel that God made that little unit for our amusement and enjoyment and we must stay in complete control of it’s use.

And I suppose you consider it government intrusion that you can't strangle your 13-year old daughter for 'dishonoring' your family, right?

The argument is that the baby your daughter is carrying, wanted or not, is still a human being, and it shouldn't be killed for what it's father and mother did. This is true even in cases of rape, sad as that may be. Put the father in jail, sure. Cut off his cajones if it was rape (I firmly believe that if he can't play nice with his toys, we should take them away from him). Don't punish an innocent for his actions, though.

And yes, the rape victim is also innocent, but here we come down to degrees of consequences. 9 months of difficulty and emotional trauma, or flat out, permanent, irreversible death? Which sounds like the lesser of two evils to you?

Do you seriously think the emotional trauma or difficulty magically ends after 9 months? I can't imagine anything more barbaric than forcing a woman to carry the child of a rapist. I suppose you think the woman's husband will be thrilled with the prospect too. Disgusting.

A fetus in first trimester is certainly not an independently viable life, and therein lies the debate. (Let's leave out second- and third-trimester abortions for the moment.) You, and millions, remain convinced it is a life worthy of the same protections as a birthed child; I, and millions, remain convinced that issues are not always black and white, and that the only fair way to adjudicate such gray areas is to allow the women carrying the child, with her family's guidance if she herself is a child, to make that weighty moral decision. I don't think you will find that disagreement among rational adults if the subject is strangulation of a 13-year old. I'm pretty sure (as in, positive) there's no controvery about that. So, not a fair comparison. And since when do we make laws based on "the lesser of two evils"? Pretty weak line to draw, in my book.

Woman? The girl in the example cited was 13. Are we supposed to believe that after 9 months of "difficulty and emotional trauma", once the 13 year old gives birth, everything will be unicorns and rainbows? We are going to force a 13 year old to drop out of school, live in a shelter with her newborn (because her disapproving parents kicked her out), become unemployable, live in poverty, and have her entire future taken away from her because we can't allow her to expunge a clump of cells that cannot see, hear, think, breath or reason? We are going to ruin the life of an existing 13 year old in order to preserve the potential life of her unborn fetus? Really? And this makes sense to you?

So C. Smith, in your world a woman who is raped just moves on from the experience and if she's unlucky enough to conceive from the vile act the 9 months of pregnancy don't add even more emotional trauma. At least not unduly in your view. And this because you believe abortion is wrong the fetus is a living being and therefore has more rights then the woman being forced to carry it. In the example it is a 13 year old girl. And you want throw away her entire life because she was taken advantage of by someone who should have known better? Seriously, as a woman and a mother I am glad you are not making decisions for my family. Or my body.

Shame that no one can go back in time to speak with all the German girls who committed suicide when they found out they had conceived after being raped by their Russian conquerors. Maybe they would have chosen to live if abortion had been available. Then again, the shame and humiliation may have been to great to even stop them if it was.

If you think there are different degrees of rape, then you must be a republican.

Steve..."If you think there are different degrees of rape, then you must be a republican." Is Whoopi a Republican?

Regarding Roman Polanski's alleged sexual assault of a minor, Whoopi Goldberg said “I know it wasn't rape-rape. I think it was something else, but I don't believe it was rape-rape.”

So Steve, guy is in the back seat of the car with his girl friend in her driveway, the two of them going at it all hot and heavy. Girl's Dad eases up, sees what is going on. Girl looks up and sees Dad and starts hitting her boyfriend and telling him to stop. So for about 10-15 seconds the guy was having sex with her against her will, which is the definition of rape.

So lets lock this guy up with the guy who hid in the bushes, ambushed a jogger, beat her to the edge of life and then raped her repeatedly. After all, there are no degrees of rape right?

Conservatives believe that AN UNBORN LIFE IS A PERSON. AND NO UNBORN LIFE SHOULD BE KILLED FOR ANY REASON...except WHEN THE LIFE OF THE MOTHER IS THREATENED

That is only for "Social" Conservitives who are nothing but liberals on social issues. A tru conservitive would leave this abortion stuff to the states to decide, not the feds.

If my state was to put on the ballet to allow abortions, the only thing I would have against it would to allow it for rape/incest and the life of the mother. Other wise I personelly feel aboution should be outlawed. But my personal view would most like get voted down in my state. But I would also be ok with it since it was the state votes deciding and I could just move to a state I agree with.

But when the feds are doing it, we have no place to run to to avoid crap like this. When MA passed RomneyCare I was glad I did not live in that state. But if I did, I would have moved.

Can you liberals see how this works? You can vote with your feet when a state does something you dislike but you can't when the feds do it. With ObamaCare, we have no where to run to.

Ernie Granger - You Hypocrite.....you finally admit that the life of the mother is paramount to the life of a fetus. LOL!!! Well if the life of the mother is of more importance when her life is threatened, then her life is more important under any circumstances. Sorry buddy but you just can't have it both ways. See the slippery slope you walk when you try to parse who has more rights? In any and all circumstances, the women has more rights than the fetus. Period. You just can't argue it away.

Son, oh yeah then why is ryan, akin etal attempting federal legislation? Why attempt an Amendment to The Constitution, if they want abortion issues left up to the states? I think your point is moot.

laurie, you make no sense. The mother's life isn't at risk the rest of the time. Only her lifestyle. That's not her life.

Skyparrot, If you have been reading most of my post over the past few years, then you know I disagree with any one at the fed level for proposing legislation that they can not find the authority for the feds in the US Constitution.

Ernie Granger: Too bad you don't feel at all protective of the child once born!

On the one hand, you think zygotes should have all the rights of fully born human beings. On the other, you want to remove any and all safety nets for the living who are impoverished, starving, weak, sick, damaged, or abused.

What you really want is for zygotes to have more rights than women. What you really want is for women's bodies to be governed by men--although you spout a need for "less" government.

What you really want is Sharia law for women right here at home. Last year, Republicans passed 2,100 laws against women's rights.

So don't think anybody buys the double-speak. Quit trying to wrap yourself in godliness and the flag. It's just crap, crap, & more crap you're vomiting. Republican talking points to confuse & hide behind

You are exactly right about Paul Ryan, Ernie Granger. He is a modern day Judas Iscariot. Betraying his own moral code and party platform all in an effort to win an election. He should be ashamed.

But thank goodness he and Mitt Romney are showing their true colors for all the world to see.

Vote Obama! Your future and the future of your daughters depend on it.

Romney/Ryan 2014 for Heretics in Chief

Can you stay on topic please?

The “debt explosion has resulted not from big spending by the Democrats, but instead the Republican Party’s embrace, about three decades ago, of the insidious doctrine that deficits don’t matter if they result from tax cuts.”

--- David Stockman Conservative Republican and Reagan's Budget Director

Typical GNOP - when the topic doesn't suit them - deflect or don't answer....

GNOP can't handle facts....GNOP CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

Mitt -where are the 1040's? WHAT are you hiding?

Yea i agree that mitt should release his tax returns but really how much do they matter?

Ask your parents.

I Can't, great fortunes are amassed by great moral crimes.

Obama 2012

OK, if the right wants it that way, all of us women in America should make a vow to "keep our legs shut". If any of this ridiculousness actually magically comes to fruition, we need to make sure we can still be in charge of SOMETHING in regards to our sex lives. No more IUD or birth control pills? No option to terminate a pregnancy, whatever the reason? Oh well, no more sex, ever. If men want to play games with our health, then we should just make a solemn pledge to repay them in kind.

sonmanvb: It's Republicans who spend and spend without paying for it, not Democrats. Sounds like you don't even know recent history! Obama's spending less than previous presidents, especially Republican ones.

Nor is America going broke because of government spending. America is being robbed.

31 trillion dollars is being held in offshore accounts, just sitting to avoid taxation. Corporations are sitting on 5 trillion, refusing to hire because they want Obama out so they can continue to run the country--these are companies no longer beholden to or even truly associated with America; they are multinationals.

The funny thing is, if R&R are elected, the next people on their hatchet list will include you--and you don't even know it.

Either way, democrats will win, because if R&R are elected and govern as Republicans do--we'll have an "American spring" very soon. So good luck to you, sucker!

Obama/Biden 2012 Romney 1044-- and a Blue Congress!

I have carved out exceptions and I do have a rational basis for my position but then i don't let my religion get in the way. As I have stated before, this is not a federal government issue and the feds need to stay out of it and allow the states to decide the issue under the 10th Amendment

i must admit that what you state is very interesting and i agree with your final statement. However could you define extremists because is one person's eye both the stances of the far right and far left are both "extreme"

Either way, the kid isnt going to be in your life so the choice is none of your business. Govt governs over citizens, citizens are born in the country therefore govt shouldnt governing those who havent been born at all.

So tell us, do you support YOUR state prohibiting all abortions,. even in the cases of rape?

"States Rights" and the 10th Amendment are often cited by those who think (left or right) they will be more successful with their agenda in the State arenas. However, it seems most people who are "pro-choice" would not settle for state restrictions and those who are "pro-life" may likewise not accept allowances. It just shuffles the issue off to myriad legislatures and courts. I find it shocking that someone who believes a fetus is a person would allow any less than a national law banning abortions.

Which leads to question two: Do you support a Constitutional Amendment banning abortion, as the Republican platform seems to be calling for? And if you do support this, doesn't that negate the States Rights argument?

What would you define as the "extreme far left" position? AFAIK, there's pretty much no one on the far left demanding that abortions be available to anyone, for any reason, covered by all insurance plans, right up until the due date. The most extreme pro-choice advocates don't go that far.

Reasonable people recognize that abortion needs to be available for a variety of reasons, all of which involve balancing the rights of the mother to choose what happens to her body against the rights of the fetus, which though not yet a "person," is a living thing. Extremists say, "NEVER!!!" or "ANY TIME AT ALL!!!"

The anti-abortionists often seem to make things even worse by opposing sex education, opposing making effective forms of birth control widely available, wanting to ban the "morning after" pill, and so on. It's as if they want to guarantee a continued supply of unwanted babies. There's no real parallel to that on the other end of the spectrum.

do you support YOUR state prohibiting all abortions,. even in the cases of rape?

If that was for me:

Did you read my response above? I have carved out exceptions and that was one of them.

I do have some exprience in abortion so I am not talking from a religious point.

My then wife wanted one and I did agree to it. At that time I was for it. Of course we waited to long and the day we went to get it my car broke down. It was 100 mile drive to the clinic and we missed it.

My daughter is now 22 yrs old. I can't imagine her not being here.

I have carved out exceptions and I do have a rational basis for my position but then i don't let my religion get in the way.

What makes you think your 'opinion' has more merit than a woman facing the issue of abortion? Protection from low-life scum such as yourself is why we need Roe v. Wade.

sonmanvb: I'm truly glad for you and your wife and daughter's happiness. My wife and I have had our own experiences that I don't care to share today; let me just say that I only hope you don't assume that everyone always shares the same values or experiences the same results as you do. I am guessing your wife was impregnated by you; what if she had been impregnated by a rapist? What if your 22-year-old daughter is raped and gets pregnant and decides to have an abortion - is it YOUR right to choose for her?

Frankly...since when does your morality or experience trump mine?

BTW, have you ever noticed that, almost without exception, the really virulent anti-abortionists - the clinic bombers, the doctor shooters, the ones who scream at women going to get health care - are all men? What does that tell you?

What it tells me is that this has precious little to do with the sanctity of human life, and a whole lot to do with men wanting to control women, and being deeply threatened by their independence.

And frankly, the only personal experience that should matter belongs to the woman who gets pregnant--which is exactly why it shouldn't be an issue for law beyond the broad outlines of Roe v. Wade. The majority decision weighed all of this quite carefully and decided the issue in the most rational way possible.

Laws can only draw bright lines, and gray areas cannot be legislated any more than morality can be. Roe v. Wade drew the bright line at viability and made suggestions leading up to viability most pro-choice people agree with.

For anti-choice folk (I can't agree they're pro-life because their concern for life ostensibly stops at birth), there are all sorts of legal problems with the "zygotes are persons" idea.

It's impossible for a prosecutor to prove. For example, there may be a zygote but insufficient hormonal production for it to develop past 'shrimp' stage. Under a "moment of conception" law, every spontaneous miscarriage might have to be prosecuted as a possible homicide. If you follow burdens of proof for each & every element of a crime, you complicate things terribly with these notions that come up in the House from people who aren't lawyers and have no clue what the legal consequences of such bills would be.

All congressional members, lawmakers by definition, should be lawyers, so they'd understand what the hell they're trying to do! With average 10th grade educations--and since education has been failing for the past five decades I include Ryan's little B.A. from Miami U. in Ohio?? as a 10th grade education--these people should be removed from office for stupidity & ignorance.

That's what the Akin problem truly reveals.

it's not just an akin problem it's a rove/ryan/romney tb problem..these anti government, anti Blacks,anti Hispanics, Anti Senior, Anti Students, Antii Women are really being inappropriate; ROMNEYCARE helps ONLY his huge superpac donors...then wrap it up in religion...pathetic excuse for helping Americans this group is beyond BELIEF!!!

hypocritical rove/ryan/romney = FAIL 99% of Americans!

OBAMA/Biden 4 more 4 44

LOL redshoes4! You forgot to say that Republicans want all children and seniors to starve to death in the streets.

Hopelessly polarized much?

yea, long-term birth control so one little "opps" doesnt make a baby.

bagdadjoe Where do you come up with s#it like that. Who stays up all night thing up this s#it? LMFAO!!!

Yeah, but how do you prove it was incest or rape? Most of the time those crimes go unreported and the new legislation the GOP is pushing really sounds like if you were raped, "prove it". Women should have the right to chose in all options. I am not talking free abortions here, just that they are available.

bagdadjoe: Well, that's exactly what Republicans want. You don't think any anti-abortion laws apply to the wealthy, do you? If you do, you are hopelessly naive. You can buy anything anywhere, if you have enough money. That's the whole point. If rich people can have abortions, poor people should have access to them, too.

SILLY BOY

Joe comes from Bagdad. A survivor of Bush's attack.

And any ban on abortion will not apply to the wealthy. Never has and never will. People with money will always be able to get an abortion in a hospital with a qualified doctor. They just call it something else. Like a D and C? It's like a vagina overhaul.

Well put. My thoughts almost exactly. Also i think this was a good point by Daniel Brown.

As far as being "Pro-Life". What a laugh.

Republican conservatives are Pro-War, Pro-Death Penalty, Pro-Gun Violence, Pro-Abandoning Children Living in Poverty, and Pro-Greed. Not exactly a resume for respecting the sanctity of life.

Your right there William. Over 6 BILLION and counting at the present time and that number is supposed to climb to between 8.5 and 9 BILLION by the year 2050!!! At that time Abortions will not be a problem because mother nature will start thinning the herd by starvation and disease due to over population! We're barely able to feed the world population now with many still living in starvation conditions in 3rd world countries, there is no way in heck we'll be able to keep all those extra mouths feed by 2050!

Bless your heart, Shaun! From the millions of women in this country, and from all of us Democrats who are trying to live by rational family values investing in the living people we have: to be healthier, happier, more free, and financially secure.

Thank you for finding more than Fox, Rupert Murdoch's conservative-billionaire-point-of-view.

Help us give our president a blue Congress so we can pass his jobs and transportation bills, renew taxes on the rich, and put America back to work!

And, you'll notice they NEVER offer any suggestions on how we will support all those unwanted babies or what we will do with them? Bring back orphanages? They also NEVER show any empathy for the life of the woman or the quality of life an unwanted child will face. Zero. Zip. Nada.

Notice Toni, not one of these wannabe controllers ever mention dumpster babies, starved, abused, exploited, throw-away kids, they seem to forget them once they are born. The overriding concerns seem to be protection of a zygot. Lets face the fact, the whole abortion issue is about control, and the best way to control women is by controlling her anatomy, control the uterus and you control the whole person. Ladies we really need to be vigilant vote these people in and I guarantee ryan will prevail in his personhood legislation and on to an amendment to the Constitution. after all romney has no back bone and would cave to the blandisment of the far right.

Obama 2012

Lar42 the Catholic Bishops do NOT support ryan..they say that his treatment of the sick/poor does not the

meet moral Standards of the Catholic Church.

ryan is a fraud he will be exposed for the CONGRESS Obstructionist (82% DISAPPROVAL RATE)

that he represents....

akin/ryan Birds of a feather..............

Obama/Biden 2012

redshoes4 please stop pretending to speak for the Catholic Bishops!

The Democratic Party was been waging a War Against Babies, 4000 casualties a day nation wide. How many women die in this fictitious war on women?