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House Republicans will file a civil suit against Attorney General Eric Holder during the August recess, House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa, R-Calif., has told NBC News.
House Republicans will file suit in an effort to compel Holder to release documents associated with the failed "Fast and Furious" gun-walking operation.
"We'll be filing a civil case during the break," Issa told NBC, "We will expect a day in court before a federal judge, which we have a 100 percent chance that the judge will hold that these documents should be delivered."
House Oversight Committee Chairman Darrell Issa has told NBC News that House Republicans will file a civil suit against Attorney General Eric Holder. NBC's Pete Williams reports.
During negotiations between House Republicans and Holder in June, the White House invoked executive privilege on the documents Issa had requested for his investigation. Issa says that a federal judge should find that executive privilege does not apply to the documents he is requesting.
"The idea that you would withhold based on some executive privilege the documents related to a cover up of a crime is absurd, but that's the claim that the attorney general is hiding behind," Issa said.
The House voted on June 28th, 255-67, to hold Holder in contempt of Congress for not turning over documents related to the Fast and Furious operation. During that vote, the vast majority of Democrats walked off the floor of the House in protest of a measure they saw as a political witch hunt.
Soon after the House found Holder in contempt of Congress, the Justice Department penned a letter to House Republicans saying it would not be pursuing the case, stating that "the attorney general's response to the subpoena issued by the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform does not constitute a crime." The DOJ cited the White House invoking executive privilege as a primary reason for not proceeding.
Larry Downing / REUTERS
U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder during a meeting at the White House in Washington, July 26, 2012.
The DOJ's response has left Republicans with few options, according to Issa, who compared the current situation with congressional attempts to retrieve the Nixon tapes during their investigation into the Watergate scandal in the 1970s.
"We're seeking a remedy and the remedy is an order to compel," Issa said. "Nixon didn't respond to Congress, he responded to federal judges, ultimately the Supreme Court, ordering that he had no such privilege to cover up the tapes. And these are no different than the Nixon tapes, we're asking for documents related to a cover up of lying to Congress."
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I'm glad to see those lazy butts in Congress can find something to fill their recess!
This could prove to be Obama's Watergate. The cover-up is always worse than the crime.
Yeah, but who really cares?
LMAO that would require a proper investigation by Issa first..which this is far from. None of his "witnesses" even testified under oath, which means there was no penalty if they lied. If he was serious, he would have done so. Instead, he did exactly what he promised..he found something and railed on it like there was no tomorrow. Regardless of whether or not it exposed a huge hypocrisy from the GOP or not. (which it clearly did...its ok for Bush to invoke it 6 times and tell the Dems to fly a kite, but if Obama uses it once its illegal?!)
Is this where Issa's headed?
According to FOX News, President Obama has had about 20 "Watergates" during his time in office...but, hey, as a media consultant for President Nixon, if anybody knows about Watergate it's Roger Ailes, right?
Good thing the iranian cyber attack on the US in response to ours was unsuccessful or Obama would have been filleted for his big fat mouth.
Holder's incompetence is bad enough but when the highest members of Obama's security council blab national security secrets to make Obama look more manly well that is just plain criminal and treasonous!
We need a special prosecutor immediately! Congress must speak up! Diane Feinstein started to and then was silenced by the White House.
Are the Republicans mad because OBAMA did what BUSH would have done?. Oops
Who really cares? A border patrol agent is dead because of this, and who knows how many people in Mexico have been killed by these guns.
What a complete disregard for human life.
Obama is the most corrupt president this country has seen. F&F, Solyndria, Black Panthers, MF Global, Rezko, the list just keeps on growing.
No kidding Ursula. They can't bring themselves to vote on anything for the people in this country but can definitely keep stirring the pot that keeps this country so divided. For all of us who have representative seats up for re-election this November ... remember to vote their sorry butts OUT!
There may not be a lot here to divulge. However, the President's handling, as in most cases, only adds fuel to any fire. Where has the maturity gone? What about Change?
Mr. President - three months to the election. You could gain 5 - 10 points if you suddenly became that person we all voted for. This does not suggest you give away everything. It suggests that you meet all challenges and find a resolution to make things work. President Clinton was great at this. The very great dislike amount elected officials was there prior to your election. Today, there is nothing but viral spitting on both sides. Again, be the one person that can CHANGE everything. Step up and come to the table for everything. Both sides stand back and blame the other side. You have a great opportunity here to make a CHANGE.
And please, all you partisan bloggers here, do not waste you time quoting the times he was at the table. That is not what the country is looking for. Being in a room for a while, then leaving because he is frustrated or has more important things to do. No, go forward and tackle every big challenge - even fixing the Affordable Health Care Bill.. There is no end to the work to be done. Please.
Bringing up Bush and his use of executive privilege at this point is both repetitive and pointless. It shouldn't be acceptable for one President to exercise this right, and another not to. The real question here is whether or not this should be allowed in the first place. Frankly, I think we need more transparency in our government so this action by Issa doesn't really bother me even though I'm not his biggest fan.
So much for JOBS, JOBS, JOBS, eh? I guess doing the bidding of NRA lobbyists is more important.
PROBLEM: These court cases, which will cost at least hundred thousand dollars, take about a year for a ruling and this case dies with the end of the current congress in just 5 months. A new Congress would have to start all over.
Another waste of our (taxpayer) money
Issa is a convicted felon, why is this circus allowed to continue?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/29/darrell-issa-eric-holder-subpoenas_n_1545449.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darrell_Issa
I still cant believe that there are people out there that will defend Holder. This clown has proven to be nothing but a crook and a racist. I lean right wiht my politics and I was very critical of Bush, that is our job as voters in this country. Letting Obama and Holder run around lawless and defending their slimy practices further divides the country and pushes it closer to the edge of the cliff.
They need to arrest his sorry a zz on Treason charges along with Obam Bam and throw them in GITMO. Today!
Really Tom? I hate to break this to you but many people in your party have a very bad habit of not thinking things through or investigating before they jump on it. This may very well become a "Watergate" but you won't have to change parties. You really should read the investigation conducted by Fortune Magazine (a rather conservative publication) regarding "Fast and Furious". Go ahead, if you have the guts or intellectual curiosity. Just google Fortune and fast and furious.
First thing I would do as AG Holder'd defender is subpoena for the defense any and all House documents from any Republican member that make reference to ANY activities, past or present, that discuss ANY alleged gun running activites by the ATF (to include during President G. W. Bush's administration as F and F was an offshoot of that program), or references AG Holder by name in conjunction with the prosecution's case.
Wanna bet they'll find an email from someone saying "this is our chance to get rid of him" or referencing AG Holder, F & F, and voter supression efforts? Or that they will back off when they see their dirty laundry would be aired?
You just proved you are a class a idiot that does not even know the meaning of treason among a lot of other things..Holder offered to release the documents with certain reservations because of pending cases and this California Ahole for political reasons continues to try to pump oil out of an empty hole. his claim to fame was getting schwartnagger in as governor of California which proved to the world Rpublicans are not woth a dime in running a state let alone a anation. Irish21 you fitr the same description. Go troll somewhere else.
Holder is being persecuted because he is about to start prosecuting a bunch of wall street people who back GOP candidates.
Detroit Storm,
You are ok with Holder letting guns walk into Mexico? You are ok with a US border agent being killed with one of the guns and you are ok with Mexican citizens being killed with those guns?
I and millions of Citizens of the United States Hold Congressman Issa and the House Republicans in contempt, for their contempt and disrespect of our Citizens, and the President of the United States.
The Penalty will be removal from office and possible civil and criminal actions for defrauding the People of the United States.
"We'll be filing a civil case during the break," ... about time you did something even though it is the wrong thing. Working during the holidays merit badge for Issa. I do believe it is a graphic of a bowl filled with barf. I seem to remember Obama stating that his administration was not going to waste the nations energies going after the felons in the Bush tent. Nice bit of tit for tat there Issa.
THIS PROGRAM WAS STARTED UNDER PRESIDENT BUSH.
Mr. Holder has said it was a bad idea. The guys involved on this side of the border, our guys, were really trying to arrest folks. They were prevented from doing that by various red tape.
GOP might want to look at their own dials in the mirror sometime. What they are doing to the people of this country in the name of greed and more money for corporations at any cost - is senseless punishment in the extreme.
Someone in Mr. Holder's position has never, ever been held in contempt before - it just is not done. And some longtime or retired Republicans agree.
It is all just a big game time-wasting, tax-wasting game to the House GOP/Koch-ers, and we have had enough. Get the sheisters out!
More McCarthyist witch-hunt.
GOP could have worked with the Pres. and his administration to create more jobs, but sadly, these conservative political animals waste their time on their favorite game of witch hunt.
@ Sam: Mad because Obama did what BUSH WOULD HAVE DONE? Really? Did you say that really? How do you know what Bush "would have done" are you a mind reader? if so, try reading this " " did you get it? If you did then you deleted your account, sold your computer and went back to coloring.
Holy goodness, nothing says guilty more than an exective privilege on a case that has cost our law enforcement their lives! I hope the truth comes out and everyone, regardless of who they are, are put away, fried, hung or in front of a firing squad for what they did. Bad seeds are everywhere but they need to be punished greatly.
Repugnants (who hate government jobs but are always eagerly wanting to be elected to one for the benefits and perks) would rather spend big money on a prosicuter, ken Star anyone? What a useless excuse for a human being if ever there was one, these are the folks who always want to hire one of their buddies to investigate something that really isn't there, but man oh man they are hoping and grasping at anything. Kind of desperate to me. Yes one border patrol agent is dead, I'm sorry for his familie's loss, however, he knew the risks and rules of the job when he took it, and there must be some personal accountability for those who accept jobs with known dangers. Think how many more border patrol agents, state troopers, local police and fire fighters all that money would fund?
For Ursula and Liberal "Folks"
"The people we lost in Aurora loved and they were loved. They were mothers and fathers; they were husbands and wives; sisters and brothers; sons and daughters, friends and neighbors. They had hopes for the future and they had dreams that were not yet fulfilled." – Barack Obama
I am sure you were as saddened, as all of us, by the tragedy in Aurora. Obama has gone on TV and told some of their stories. I recently read a story about another American, a story you won't hear from Obama, a story about a man who in the service for the country he loved, had missed being home the last two Christmases … the simple wish of being home, being with mom, his brother and sisters and the friends he loved so much. He made it back for Christmas, but yes, as you have probably guessed, the homecoming was not the joyous event envisioned …. It was the heartbreak of an Honor Guard, bagpipes and a flag draped casket.
His story is remarkable, just as the stories of those lost that Friday morning.
There was the time his teacher called his parents explaining how his Kindergarten classmates would go outside for recess while their son would choose to stay inside on many days to help clean and organize the messy paint jars, or whatever …. to help his teacher. And when he wasn't helping the teacher, he was always helping his fellow students in one way or another …. a trait he maintained throughout his abbreviated life.
He had a great charisma about him. He was very funny and witty … people always seemed to gravitate to him. He had a way about him that inspired and motivated others. He seemed never to be in competition with anyone ... that is except himself – all in an effort to push him to be the best he could be.
He was very close with his brother and two sisters, but that lifelong special bond was with his mother. She was his rock. He would always seek her advice, her reassurance that he was making the right decisions. Mom's advice was always …. to follow his dreams.
After High School, he enlisted in the United States Marine Corp. After serving in the Marine Corp, he returned home to Michigan where he attended Henry Ford Community College, where he earned his Associates in Criminal Justice. He went on to attend Schoolcraft College and graduated President of his class … once again.
He soon joined Ecorse Police Department and after a few years, transferred to the Lincoln Park Police Department where he became a decorated officer. Still, this was not enough … he wanted to be a Federal Agent. He applied and after many interviews, got in. After a couple of years, this was still not enough, he wanted to reach the highest level of achievement - the elite tactical unit known as BORTAC.
They said he was too old by now, but he believed … and as Mom had always told him, he followed his dream. He was accepted for training, training that wash-out many. Five weeks in, an instructor thought he had performed a task incorrectly. The consequence was to carry a fellow trainee on his shoulder, full gear and body armor for 3 miles. Without a word, the trainee was shouldered and the struggle through the desert began.
The instructors later realized that the task had in fact been performed correctly, and Brian was informed he could stop.
He didn't. He finished all three miles. He proved to his team that right or wrong, fair or not, regardless of the hardship - he would always be there for them.
The knock on the door came at 6:50AM on December 15, 2010. 'At that moment life stood still for his family. The vision of Brian dying in the cold desert and memories of his beautiful life passed before their eyes. No one could believe this could happen ….'
On December 14, 2010, Brian as a member of the Border Patrol Tactical Unit (BORTAC) was conducting operations nears Nogales, Arizona – targeting a "rip crew" that assault and rob drug runners. Brian and his team had been ordered to use non-lethal measures, beanbag gun, as their initial action. In the "Peck Well" area near Rio Rico, they encountered 5 individuals …. Gunfire erupted … Brian was mortally wounded and succumbed to his death in the morning of December 15, 2010.
The rifle used to kill Brian – Brian A. Terry – was provided to the Mexican drug cartels, in effect, by the administration of Obama as one of the 2,500 assault style rifles wantonly allowed to walk to the drug cartels.
All the family of Brian Terry wants to know is - Who ordered Fast and Furious.
Why does the Obama administration not know who ordered it, (or why will they not tell) ... why has the justice department lied to Congress .... why will they not cooperate in finding the simple truth.
They and America and the Mexican families of 200 plus victims killed by these guns deserve to know.
Thank you Issa for your help.
Just out of curiosity, but what exactly do you mean people in 'my party'? All I made was a simple observation that seems pretty politically-neutral to me. Maybe something big will come of this, and maybe nothing will come if it. No one knows but sure, but the point is we will never know unless an investigation is done.
Imagine for a moment that all of this went down exactly as Issa is having us believe (which I agree is highly doubtful). Wouldn't you want to be made aware of that?
tom marvolv So far this is now The President's fourth Watergate. More like witchhunt gate. Another republican way to spend tax dollar money. Is this big government in action or what? This is coming from the guys who don't like big government.
Ol Doc is correct-read the Fortune article. It confirms that the NRA and Arizona are full of whack job "Tal-i-ban-Repub-li-can" zealots. Oh I forgot the NRA and the TEA party are perfect examples of our failed educational system-can't read and can't think for themselves.
Job1,
Are you kidding me? What about the FF deal do you not understand? Why do you liberals think that allowing guns to walk across the boarder is ok?
For the love of God, Party of No, where are the jobs?
Fast and Furious was a Shrub-era program.
Stop your wars against women, minorities, the old, the young, students, and science, already, and help President Obama create jobs!
On what would you base a charge of Treason? You sound like a Tea Bagger, you should be familiar with the Constitution, obviously not:
U.S. Constitution, Article III, Section 3
[1] Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
If there is an administration who's actions more clearly meet the criteria, you might consider the previous administration. I don't believe there is a statute of limitations for Treason.
You can thank the Republican Party, Mr. Bush and NRA.
david saint
this will be dropped on Novemebr 7th. This is GOP's desperate measure to sway some voters. They know they have a losing candidate so they will try anything - like probing and elimination of possible Dem. votes by fighting their non-existing voter fraud.
So, if it weren't for "these guns" Brian Terry and all those people in Mexico would still be alive?
A couple of weeks ago when James Egan Holmes allegedly entered a movie theater in Colorado and opened fire people were quick to point out that gun control isn't the answer and that in spite of current laws criminals will get their hands on guns.
(The GOP, of course, loves to point a finger at Chicago.)
Well, doesn't the same standard apply here? It in no way lessens the tragedy of what happened to Brian Terry but to state that "Fast & Furious" is the sole reason that he was killed? Isn't that being just a little "Pollyanna", folks?
Ummmm, I bet the families of the killed agent care. An operation went horribly wrong and its more than just political about getting answers....I dont think the President had anything to do with this, but I do think the executive privilege was an attempt to protect a friend. While admirable, not what you do as a sitting President.
Guns don't kill people, People kill people!
I guess you must be in favor of gun control. Read Fortune Magazines investigation of Fast and Furious then get back to me.
@Never Stop Asking Questions
The Republicans are, but the bills are buried under a crap pile on Reid's desk.
They want to avoid RomneyGate, the tax return and 77K write-off on a HORSE hullaballo, and IssaGate, wherein Issa is breaking the law and failing to answer a subpoena for the Roger Clemens scandal.
And OlympiGate, where Romney travelled the world and insulted random countries. Also told reporters to kiss his a**.
Also JobsGate. That's where we write down a bill consisting of ideas like 'Let businesses pollute groundwater with mercury until employment is below 5%', and then slap the title 'Jobs Bill' on it because a lot of their base is too ignorant to see past the big, bold title words and read the bill.
Why, they're waiting for the anti-business socialist currently running things to go home to Chicago next January, so businesses (not the government) can get on with the job of rebuilding the economy with real commerce, instead of giveaways to unions and flaky pie-in-the-sky energy companies.
Job1,
How do you figure the GOP is responsible for Holders decision? Are you talking about W's gun program? The one where they actually TRACED the guns? Swing a miss sunshine. Now go back to bowing down to your Obama shrine.
The documents you are referring to were sealed by a Grand Jury!. It would be illegal for Holder to release the documents. Read Fortune Magazines investigation of Fast and Furious if you've got the balls, or just go listen to Gretta, I think she's on FOX right now!
Ol Doc,
you miss the point. Brian Terry would not be in the ground today if Holder did not let those guns walk. But according to you that is false? Please explain.
Who cares where the guns came from …
Remember … Guns don’t kill people …
People kill people
Can’t have it both ways !!
Nope. They're mad because OBAMA is doing what NIXON did. Oops.
RedSoxRule
says the person who is pro Romney who is pro war.
Hey, RedSox, where is your outrage at the Bush/Cheney Adminstration who lied to the Congress and the Americanpeople to orchestrate a war or two that is responsible for THOUSANDS of American lives and over HUNDRED THOUSAND of Iraqi men, women and children.
Hey Redsox the Humanitarian - you should be ashamed to even write that to make your point.
Irish,
I'm not ok with guns going to Mexico, but I wasn't ok with it under Bush as Operation Wide Receiver either. The difference is that this is political theater at its worst. A convicted felon who has refused to answer Congressional subpoenas is getting his panties in a bunch over this? You really think Issa give a crap about the guns or people?
Save your fake outrage, you don't care what happens in Mexico either.
Nah.
RSR is one of those guys who's going to google 'how to migrate to Canada' after Obama is re-elected.
He will totally miss the ignorance and hypocrisy of his google search, and instead decry socialism in all its forms and incarnations.
Party of No and Boner....where are the jobs?
Stop your war against women, eligible voters, minorities, students, the elderly, and Science!
Well of course. Trickle-down economics has worked so well in the past, right? OK, Romney says he want's to give a 20% Federal Income Tax reduction to everyone. Then he want's to increase defense spending by $100 billion in 2016. He says he will fund all of this by removing "some" tax loopholes; he won't say which loopholes.
1. Please run the numbers for us and explain how he can fund all of this by removing tax loopholes.
2. Which loopholes would provide an offset for the increased defense spending and across the board 20% tax cut?
If we currently have tax loopholes that would fund all of this...
1. It's not the middle-class that's getting them.
2. No damn wonder we're running a deficit!
Time for the Romney's of this country to bring their profits back to this country and pay their damn taxes!
So you can't get a jobs bill together, or a farm bill, but you can file this meaningless crap?
Noid and Dennis, are you guys really that foolish that you don't understand basic logic.
If anyone is getting guns ILLEGALLY then the people distributing them should be PROSECUTED.
You guys just can't take a legitimate position on anything, can you. This needs to be investigate and PROSECUTED. If it leads to Obama or Bush, or Clinton, I don't care.
You people should be ashamed of yourselves.
Dennis:
Who cares where the guns came from …
Remember … Guns don’t kill people …
People kill people
Can’t have it both ways !!
_______________________________________
So you have no problem with the Obama Administration knowingly supplying the "People" that will murder with the weapons to murder?
You cannot be this stupid ....
..... can you?
Ol_Doc;
We could write off mortgage interest exemptions, new car purchase exemptions, dependants exemptions and educations exemptions.
Those would do the trick.
Puts the burden right, squarely, on anyone making under $500,000 though.
If there is nothing to hide, why invoke executive privilege? For the person who promised to have the most transparent administration ever, why are all of the shades pulled down tight. If you feel Bush was wrong and a criminal for what he did, why do you not feel the same when Obama does the same or worse? Why is a President that claimed that he would leave after four years if things weren't better than when he started, running for a second term?
GOP legislators introduced more than 3,000 reproductive health and rights-related provisions from 2009-2011, of which 92 new abortion restrictions enacted in 2011 shattered the previous record of 34 adopted in 2005. South Dakota flirted with a law to make the murder of an abortion doctor legal as self-defense. When South Dakota was forced to drop the idea of murdering abortion doctors, Nebraska and Iowa picked up the idea. Republicans have tried to define contraception not as a health but as a religious issue, claiming that the availability of contraception is a violation of their religious beliefs, which in itself goes against the separation of church and state. Then there are MANY 'other wars' the GOP have been bringing to legislation AND/OR passing; The War on Special Supplemental Nutritional Program for Women, Infants and Children (WIC), The War on National Public Radio (NPR), The War on Marriage Equality and the Anti-Gay Agenda, The War on the Internet, The War on Obama: Birthers and Anti-Obama Legislation, The War on Unions and Collective Bargaining/War on Middle Class (which is an attack on Democracy itself), The War on Immigration, The War on Child Labor Laws, The War on the Right to Vote, The War on Science, the Environment and Health, The War on Education/Historical Revisionism, The War on Anti-Bullying Laws, and last but not least, The War on Jobs (House Republicans have not only failed to deliver even one job creation bill, they have passed legislation to kill 1.9 million jobs.) Are ALL these 'wars' the GOP/TPer's way of thinking, of making AMERICA a better place, and yet spend millions trying to politically lynch people because they have nothing else to do for THE PEOPLE OF THE U.S.? I'd like to hear a rebuttal to all these 'wars,' that is intelligent and makes sense.
Do you remember the President Reagan and ''the Iran-contra as trading weapons for hostages.''
It is absolutely false. Do you believe if that particular gun had not crossed the border, the Mexican Cartels would be unarmed? Do you believe that if that particular gun had not crossed the border, the people Mr. Terry was trying to bust would have just given up and not fired on him with a different gun?
What happened to the line: "Guns don't kill people, people kill people"? Why does that line only work when a Republican or member of the NRA voices it?
If you really want to know what's going on google: Fortune Magazine Fast and Furious. And bear in mind that Fortune Magazine is a conservative financial publication. There are, however, still some conservatives more interested in the truth than simply getting rid of President Obama.
Do you remember the President Reagan and ''the Iran-contra as trading weapons for hostages.''
Actually, the Reagan administration was very corrupt.
http://themessageis.com/ronald-reagan-is-not-george-washington/
So in let's say 100 years will you Dems still be using Bush as an excuse?? So you think that Bush was a horrible, incompetent, lying President, but you're going to use his example as the standard that Presidents should be held to? For all of you Dems that are stuck in the past, Bush is gone and we are now dealing with the Obama administration. I'm not nearly as concerned with someone that is out of office and no longer has any government power or authority, I am concerned with someone that presently holds that position.
So you all want to see Romney's tax returns even though there is no kind of proof whatsoever that Romney has done anything illegal and I've even heard many Dems say that "he must have something to hide or he would produce the returns."
So of course, that means that Obama must have something to hide or he would produce his college records and not try to exercise executive priviledge.
Bob, the truth is out there. Have you read the Fortune Magazine investigation into "Fast and Furious"? Bob...it's a conservative magazine. If you have read the investigation and still post this crap...you're nothing but a right-wing hack. If you haven't read the investigation, please shut up, read the damn investigation and then get back to us.
Ah...more doublespeak. Why the hell not, you people will still be using Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton.
If Rep. Issa and his compatriots are successful, and due to their interference they end up blowing an ongoing undercover operation by the ATF and FBI, then THEY (not A.G. Holder) will all be toast.
Amidst all of the over-the-top rhetoric we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that in Law Enforcement there are often good reasons for not revealing details of operations until they are complete. That possibility in this case seems to be lost in the political hyperbole.
Oh for heaven's sake. Just when you thought the worst congress in industry couldn't possibility get ANY worse. This happens.
What a waste of air.
Obama/Biden 2012
I'm happy to see Jobs are still the #1 priority of the Congressional GOP.
Finally, the GOP passes a job bill .... to keep their attorneys employed. This is just more tea-fodder.
Mark...we can't determine proof if we can't see them. You must be a political hack, you can't possibly be that obtuse.
I'm ashamed to say that Issa is from my State. The man knows no shame. What a loser.
He won't be around next election, guaranteed.
OBAMA IN 2012.
Let me see if I understand this......
The Grand Obstructionist Party, and their Teabagger Allies, instead of going into emergency session and making good laws that bring back jobs like they promised in 2010, instead say they are going to sue someone after they go on vacation.
Where are the jobs GOP, Where are the Jobs?
Instead of wasting time and trying to make Obama a one term president, you GOP should go into emergency round the clock session and write good laws that bring back jobs, and also, you should unblock all the numerous jobs bills that President Obama sent to you all. (These Obama jobs were blocked because the GOP thought it would help Obama win re-election so they sacrificed everyone including the Tea Party that supported them and made everyone unemployed in order to defeat Obama. )
in 2012 vote Obama and the Democrats, at least they tried to get Jobs legislation through the Teabag House of Representatives.
And thats my opinion!!!
If only republicans cared as much about the men and women that are serving our country as they do about the 1 death of a border agent, but not one republican finds fault with a war that was waged based on manufactured evidence. Not one republican cares that thousands of our military have died and a million Muslims have died to wars that aren't necessary.
Instead they want to go to war with Iran, so more of our military can die, so more innocents will die. Romney promised to help Israel with a war on Iran. We can't afford to get our own nation straightened out but you want to spend billions on another war? Screw republicans.
Screw Issa, he is a criminal and they are angry because Holder has been going after states that are illegally purging voters. That are purging black voters so they can win.
Obama might suck but I would vote for him over Romney any day of the week. The tea party in general are a bunch of angry, under educated white people that really don't care about anyone but themselves. They certainly show no indication of patriotism, if you loved your nation you wouldn't want to drain its resources on war, you wouldn't want to deliberately kill our military men and women.
As an independent, they all make me sick, republicans are just a form of evil right now that I just can't imagine how anyone could support.
Come on Robert...think Dick Cheney, Scooter Libby and Valery Plame. These people don't care who they kill to obtain their political goals. Think Iran-Contra.
I still think we should make plans to saw ourselves loose at the Idaho border...just in case.
Tom Marvolo
No, Tom.... They would not want to be made aware of that. They would prefer to live in their little dreamland... praising EVERYTHING Obama. They are oblivious and out of touch.
All of those showing sympathy for the Terry family, which I do myself, should be contacting their congressmen and senators and demanding stricter gun laws in order to control unrestricted gun sales to people who will inevitably sell those guns to criminals on either side of the border.
In AZ. where this all is centered, you can purchase as many guns as you want, take them outside and resell them to anyone walking by and it's all legal. When an 18 year old unemployed person can go in with $20,000 and buy 20 weapons at one time with no waiting period we have a problem in this country.
By the way tea party people, you only care about that border agent because Fox news tells you to. I guarantee you that not one person in congress cares about that agent or the family, they care about using them politically and that is just disgusting.
As usual, when the GOP has nothing to offer and are afraid of questions being asked of their incompetent candidate, they deflect.
If there is an investigation to be done it should certainly be starting with Issa; after that Boehner; then Romney - the list goes on and on and on.
The American public is clearly aware of the stupidity and incompetence of the right wingers. This will just bring it out into the open even more.
What a total disgrace the GOP is. How far this once good party has stooped!
Obama/Biden 2012
I agree, Ursula.. This is nothing more than a GOP distraction, rather than to deal with the real issues at hand.. Jobs, taxes, etc.!!!
I am always saddened by the death of a Law Enforcement Officer killed in the line of duty. You know what else I'm saddened by: 4,488 US Soldiers Killed / over 100,000 US Soldiers Wounded , in a completely unnecessary war initiated by a Republican President.
I'm also saddened by the US veterans who take their own lives at a rate of 1 every 80 minutes, the one US Service Member who takes his/her live every day. The state of psychiatric care for veterans and service members.
Yes bob, there are many things I'm saddened about.
ol doc, I'm on your side here, let's see Obama's college records and the Fast & Furious documents.
And I'm above you here, I did not resort to name calling. Are you out of Junior High yet??
Party of No, I repeat, where are the jobs?
Why isn't anyone on the Reichwing explaining where the jobs are?
Mark, why can't any republican support other republicans without attacking Obama? Because republicans have absolutely nothing to offer and no answers, if they had them they would be touting them not going on political witch hunts.
Where are Romneys tax returns again Mark? Where is the files congress requested from Bush on the war on Iraq when he manufactured evidence? Hypocrite.
If that agent deserves justice so does every single soldier in our military that has served in the wars. I want Bush arrested as the war criminal that he is, if republicans are going to do this. Its purely political not because you actually care.
They are holding the jobs hostage, to the vote of Romney, its as simple as that. The rich are forcing people to vote republican to keep their taxes lower than ever in history. I stand with Jefferson, we don't deal with people like that, I will not be held hostage for my vote. It will go to Obama.
That's nice...but how about we get back to the claim that Brian Terry and countless Mexicans are dead because of this? Can anybody prove that Agent Terry was killed by a gun that was involved in "Fast & Furious"...and even if it could be proved, wouldn't the person who shot and killed him have just gotten a gun from somewhere else?
Tom Marvolo "This could prove to be Obama's Watergate. The cover-up is always worse than the crime."
Agreed. How can Obama claim 'Executive Privilege", which only applies to White House communications, unless Obama was directly involved in covering up the 'Fast & Furious' program?
And as for those who claim "It's a 'witch hunt' by a Republican Congress", perhaps they should remember that the Watergate investigation against Nixon was done by a Democratic Congress, so what's the difference.
What is Obama REALLY trying to hide?
Ol_Jackass -
Yea, I read the Fortune piece ... and you fell for that crap?
Since you can't tell crap on your own, why don't you google fortune fast and furious and read NRO piece ripping the article .... "Did Fast and Furious Not Happen? ... or any number of other pieces that rip it.
Btw - So who ordered Fast and Furious?
And this my frineds is how the GOP has been working on getting jobs for the American people. Remember "Boner" (not a mistake) taking about JOBS!!! JOBS!!! JOBS!!! in 2010? They have been working on a awful number of "jobs bills" since then, haven't they?.
How much time and how many millions of taxpayer dollars is Mr. Issa going to waste on this ?
Assuming the documents are covered by executive privilege, the AG will still have to fight this battle up to the SCOTUS, who may very well say that they are NOT subject to Congressional subpoena.
The Republican Party and the House will lose an important piece of Congress' ability to demand information from the Executive branch.
The imperial Presidency will grow stronger as the do nothing Congress grows more and more useless.
This whole argument borders on the insane. We are talking about Guns that can be bought on the open Market here in the United States and being used by Crime organizations in Mexico.
The problem starts when an American Citizen can buy 25 AK47 Michine Guns with no control and he resells them to a Mexican Drug Cartel. The problem starts with the Machine Guns being called legal under the Rights to bear Arms clasue of the Bill of ights. That is the problem.
When the Bill of Rights was written the United States wanted to maintain an Army of Citizensat no cost who could be called up to defend the Nation. That thought is now called the National Guard. I don't think anyone would have a problem with the National Guard having AK47 Machine guns but an 80 year old Grandmother doesn't need a Machine Gun to defend her home.
The whole agrument is wrong. We should not have Automatiic Machine Guns available for pruchase by the American Public. IT IS WRONG AND STUPID111
This whole argument borders on the insane. We are talking about Guns that can be bought on the open Market here in the United States and being used by Crime organizations in Mexico.
The problem starts when an American Citizen can buy 25 AK47 Michine Guns with no control and he resells them to a Mexican Drug Cartel. The problem starts with the Machine Guns being called legal under the Rights to bear Arms clasue of the Bill of ights. That is the problem.
When the Bill of Rights was written the United States wanted to maintain an Army of Citizensat no cost who could be called up to defend the Nation. That thought is now called the National Guard. I don't think anyone would have a problem with the National Guard having AK47 Machine guns but an 80 year old Grandmother doesn't need a Machine Gun to defend her home.
The whole agrument is wrong. We should not have Automatiic Machine Guns available for pruchase by the American Public.
How about we hold Holder and Obama accountable, when Bush and Cheney are arrested for war crimes that they themselves admitted to committing. When that happens I will stop thinking about this as a political witch hunt, because republicans really don't care what happen to our soldiers? You don't care that thousands of our soldiers died due to their manufactured evidence?
Republicans and their tea party followers are just hypocrites.
This AG is the worst our Country has ever seen anti American POS.
This is exactly where the TEAPUBLICANS in Congress are headed. If they have nothing meaningful and productive to do (say passing Jobs Bill) on behalf of the American people, they resort to these gimmicks to divert attention and they have been doing this successfully ever since Obama became the President.
They have succeeded in killing the 2009 Energy Security Bill (aka Climate Change Bill), diluting Frank Dodd bill, diluting and trying to de-fund enforcement of Consumer Protection Bill in any way possible, scare and smear tactics regarding Affordable Healthcare Act (demonizing it as Obamacare), trying to kill enforcement of EPA rules on smog, pollution and emissions, etc.
They have done nothing useful in 42 months and they used the Senate filibuster to block meaningful legislation even when Democrats controlled both houses.
Using personal and derogatory comments (Obama is a foreigner, un-American, Muslim, secret homo-lover, connections to Muslim Brotherhood, etc.) to demonize him and not give him the basic respect he deserves as our President. Now, this guy, Congressman Darrell Issa - a school drop out - whose parents or grand-parents themselves came to this country from Lebanon, a Muslim country and this guy has the galls to go after Eric Holder, an honorable public servant.
It is high time to send the right wing tea nuts to dust bin.
Well, this will get buried, but here is a quote from the Fortune Magazine (not exactly your liberal bastion) article on Fast and Furious:
"Quite simply, there's a fundamental misconception at the heart of the Fast and Furious scandal. Nobody disputes that suspected straw purchasers under surveillance by the ATF repeatedly bought guns that eventually fell into criminal hands. Issa and others charge that the ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. They insist they never purposefully allowed guns to be illegally trafficked. Just the opposite: They say they seized weapons whenever they could but were hamstrung by prosecutors and weak laws, which stymied them at every turn.
Indeed, a six-month Fortune investigation reveals that the public case alleging that Voth and his colleagues walked guns is replete with distortions, errors, partial truths, and even some outright lies. Fortune reviewed more than 2,000 pages of confidential ATF documents and interviewed 39 people, including seven law-enforcement agents with direct knowledge of the case. Several, including Voth, are speaking out for the first time."
If it were not for Grover Norquist and the National Rifle Association, there would not need to be a Republican party.
The democrats have a wide enough spread ideologically (without needing Norquist and the NRA to create single issue thoughts for them) that the democrats could pretty much represent 90% of the American voting population.
Issa is an embarrassment to the state of California and the entire country... He's a little man on a power trip...
I hope that my fellow Californians vote him out of office next time around...
What I'd really like to see is Holder and Issa put in a room alone... I think holder would go for it but I do not think Issa is man enough...
A new book is out called "Fast and Furious: Barack Obama's Bloodiest Scandal and the Shameless Cover-Up" which details how big this scandal really is. Imagine our government telling gun dealers they want them to illegal sell guns to criminals so they can be traced, telling ATF agents to let the criminals go so as to be followed and then emailing other government officials how you will blame gun dealers in America for the violence in Mexico and border towns of America. Imagine sending thousands of guns over the border and not telling Mexico anything about this operation. Now imagine bodies start to show up from these guns and everyone scrambles to cover their own butt including the DOJ.
http://www.redstate.com/jeff_emanuel/2012/05/11/fast-and-furious-barack-obama%E2%80%99s-bloodiest-scandal-and-its-shameless-cover-up/
This is a real story and could be a big scandal for Obama depending on his inolvment or lack of, but it is easier for media outlets to ignore it and write story after story about Romney's tax returns then do any actual reporting or investigating into something that might make Obama not look good.
Wading thru all the partisan bickering, one salient point is ignored; namely, if there is nothing to it then why is Obama covering for Holder? Comparing Obama to Nixon is apt except that during Watergate, no one was killed. Obama and Clinton, all covered up. Whitewater never went anywhere because McDougal covered for Clinton, even went to jail for him. Had she talked the fat lady would have sung and Clinton, Hillary and the Clinton empired would have been toast.
Interesting how 'lost' documents 'suddenly' appeared after it was all over. Think the same thing will happen with Fast and Furious. Anyone defending Obama over this is essentially not wanting truth, they only want lies because without the lies, their man falls apart. Guess it only goes to show what the Obama supporter is really all about, lies, more lies and damn lies.
Its funny how much republicans point fingers at Obama saying he is a Muslim while their own Koch brothers are direct descendents of a key part of Mussolini, Hitler and Stalin regimes. Their own father immigrated here after having helped to build the fascist empires in Europe.
Norquist works for them, I have no idea why republicans find if so acceptable to have half of our legislatures signing oaths to them. All of those shady organizations that are funded by the Koch brothers and have been since their father came here. In fact the entire libertarian movement was actually started by their father, former nazi.
Now, the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful, in comparison to the direct line that the Koch brothers have to pure evil, its a joke that republicans follow them.
mygirl, where is your outrage at the war crimes committed by the republicans under Bush? If they had any evidence on Holder or Obama, they would have used it. You like many of your counter parts simply ignore the atrocities committed by your own party.
How much is this exercise in mental masturbation going to cost the taxpayers?
How about congress releasing papers showing how they lied to the public.
What an amazing waste of time, energy and MONEY!!! Yet another witch hunt that the repugnicans are perpetrating. Instead of working on important issues JOBS, ECONOMY, etc. the d_ckhead from SD is continuing his GRAND OLE PLUTOCRAT witch hunt. A separate GOP study found that there is NO, I repeat, NO (nada zilch, zip, bupkis, great doughnut) connection between WH and fast and furious. Just another monica lewinsky maneuver. Why are democraps so TERRIBLE at SH_T (jack abramoff, gonzales and firing nay0-sayers in DOJ, stick to repugnicans?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_federal_political_scandals_in_the_United_States#2001.E2.80.932009_George_W._Bush_Administration
Quite taking FAUX news at its word and do your own research to discover the truth. You NEED, I repeat, NEED Obama to look like a boogie man in order to foist GWB 2.0 (aka Willard Mitt Romney) on the American people.
Wow talk about a butt load of pots calling the kettle black (no pun intended). Someone is lying to congress, well congress has been lying to the American people since the inception of congress. This crap is so comical.
Where are the WORKABLE jobs bills that House Republicans have promised since 2010? Answer: NOWHERE!
@Sam... Still with the Bush statements? Really? Almost four years and that is still the best that loonies can come up with?
Obama, Bush, who cares. Holder is the real jackass in this and he needs his wings clipped.
ATF intentionally allowed guns to walk as an operational tactic. But five law-enforcement agents directly involved in Fast and Furious tell Fortune that the ATF had no such tactic. - Really because others have said otherwise.
It's all B.S. If it's not a witch hunt they would call in the Bush administration who started this program.
The person who ought to be investigated is Issa who is a real criminal and thug. Him and his brother.
gosh, a book by a right wing political idealog that writes for redstate.com that has a completely different view of reality. Who'd a ever thunk it?
To those who seem happy to scream that one of the Fast & Furious guns was used to murder a US Border Agent, that is not true. It's true that one of those guns was found at the scene, but it WAS NOT the gun used to commit the murder.
I too disagree with Fast & Furious, it was a badly thought out, idiotically planned and stupidly carried out plan which never had any proper expectation of success and heads need to roll over the whole program but let's be realistic here. The program is now being used by the Teapublicans as nothing more than a political witchhunt and by Darrell Issa who sees it as a stepping stone to more personal political power. If the progam had been enacted and carried out during a Teapublican administration, the silence from the right would have been deafening.
THIS is the best Congress can do???? No legislation, just snark and pick at the POTUS, Bernanke and Holder? Really GOP, grow up and do your jobs or give back the $175k + benefits EACH of you are paid every year because clearly you did not earn it! (Can Congress be prosecuted for theft or breach of fiduciary duty?)
I read these posts and I'm just astounded at, well there is no way to be polite about it, at the idiocy of the left. Bush and Cheney didn't admit to any crimes, geesus people. And if no one in Congress cares, as one "brilliant" leftist above wrote, about Brian Terry, or any other person, then why keep arguing that liberals in Congress, or Obama himself, really do care. If you are so cynical as to claim that no one cares then why do you demand to be cared for? I mean, my goodness, this stuff just can't be made up.
MisterMean above might take the cake though. His post, unintentionally I am sure, is both pathetic and hilarious, while at the same time very revealing about the liberal mind. He says his political opponents are just stupid, and are obviously the product of a failed public educational system. The fact he's wrong about who is stupid isn't an issue. What is an issue is that in November he will go to the polls, like the good liberal he is, and vote AGAIN for the same people who have run the public education system for many decades. The people who, by his own claim, have utterly failed at their task.
What does this, imo, reveal about the liberal mind? It is that no matter how bad government might be at performing a given task, the solution is NEVER to stop having the government perform the task. The solution to a liberal, instead, is always to expand the task the government is doing. In this context, and I seriously ask though I seriously doubt a liberal will respond fairly, why should I as a conservative want to compromise? See, no matter where we slice the baby, so to speak, we always end up getting more government, and if MisterMean isn't a complete tool, it often fails to do its job well.
Jan,
Bush has been out of office going on 4 years, how do you know My Girl was'nt upset about some of the things the Bush camp did. Bottom Line, it's 2012 and OBAMA is in office now. K?
Rich, Bush and Cheney are both convicted war criminals that can't leave the country.
And there is no evidence of wrong doing on Obamas part, he invoked his executive right, as did Bush on six different occasions. Righties are so ill informed its sad.
We can elect the person who has two things on his agenda, war with Iran and cutting his own taxes or Obama. To me, Obama is the lesser evil.
Bottom line is there is no actual evidence supporting republicans claims against Obama, and we are still fighting one of the wars Bush took us into. Our soldier are still dying to that war so yeah I am still outraged by it.
Bottom line, I will NOT vote to go to war with Iran and that is what a vote for Romney is.
What makes me the saddest, even during the Bush administration the republicans showed no caring what their party was doing...there was no tea party outraged with a million muslims slain. Yet 200 Mexicans die and suddenly your world is rocked, it makes no sense. The fact is that no administration is isolated by their own deeds, what other administrations have done before it has a great impact and if we do NOT learn from the wrong doings of Bush, then we deserve to go down in history as one more failure.
Jan you are the joke here! Pull your head out and try to focus. This isn't about Muslims or the Kochs. This is about over 2000 guns that were allowed by the current administration to be bought and then transported to Mexico to be used by the Cartels. This is about an American who, while defending our country, was killed by an illegal that used one of these weapons. It's about the ATF and the supervisors who knew about the Operation and either supported it or did nothing to stop it and it is about how far up this Operation was known and or sanctioned.
Do you or any of the others protesting this law suit think that the Terry family does not deserve to know the truth? Should they not know who allowed the weapons to walk and expect to see those people punished?
The truth is our Government is as corrupt as it can be. Between cover-ups and the mainstream medias piss poor coverage of current events, Obama and the people he put "in charge" think they do not answer to the American people.
You can go back and say well look at Bush all you want or point a finger somewhere else but wasn't it the current President who came out with the Hopey changey thing back in 2008? All he had done since being elected President, besides adding trillions to the national debt, is show exactly how low and how irresponsible "Chicago Politicians" can sink.
Obama is a war criminal and he should be impeached.
Obama has:
Signed the NDAA bill into law allowing the assassination of any us citizen without trial (yes, I know it's been around for a long time but Obama signed it into law even though it's unconstitutional)
Obama has killed hundreds of innocent people (including 3 Americans) with drone strikes he has ordered in Pakistan And Yemen.
Obama has raised the National debt Nearly $5 TRILLION.
Obama has allowed almost 1 Million ILLEGAL aliens to become legal citizens (thanks to those he allowed to become citizens, they have committed 19 murders and 142 sex crimes)
Lied About all of His 2008 Campaign Promises Including the One Where He said he campaigned in 57 states.
Google Search "Dreams from my REAL father" and you'll see, Obama's father was a failed communist who's dream was to DESTROY America, at age 18, Obama went to a MARXIST school.
there is no time to find legislation for jobs and the economy but they have time for this bull sh,it. I pray that it backfires.
VOTE THEM OUT
No surprise here, since the GOP has accomplished nothing else in Congress. The "Party of No and Do Nothing" needs to be booted from Congress. It has been the same "Status Quo" for the GOP to not get along or work with anybody (outside their Party) in D.C. Oh yeah, what happened to all those jobs they promised to create in 2010? The GOP could care less about their Constituents, except for the themselves and the corporate elite. Time to vote them out of office, since they don't want to get anything done other than to argue/whine all the time.
There should be two letters behind GOP: GOPDN for "Do Nothing"
Hey Congress, what about JOBS. JOBS, JOBS??? How about you do the job the American taxpayer is paying you for and quit with your stupid bullsh!t?
The real funny thing on here is the Republicans make statements like they really know something. If the ediots you elected knew as much as you freaks he would have already been indicted
What jobs bills do you leftists want passed into law? If you look at the stimulative spending that has occurred over the past 4-plus years (this includes probably the best of the stimulus plans, which was Bush's small rebate, in terms of cost/benefit), it amounts to more than $3.5 trillion dollars. This is JUST spending intended to stimulate the economy. Now, if Mr. Obama is to be believed that because of all of this 4.4 million jobs have resulted, a bit of math will confirm to you that the cost per job is nearly $800,000.00 PER JOB.
Think about that number for a second...we have, according to Mr. Obama, created 4.4 million jobs (I'm not even going to argue at this point that many, if not all, of those jobs would have been created without stimulative spending, or that government displacement has actually caused a net loss of jobs compared to what could have occurred without the stimulative spending), and at a cost of about $800k each. Bollocks you say. We could not have spent that much. Okay, let's make it better for you leftists...
How about we simply confine all jobs created to the $820 bn stimulus package passed early in 2009. How much did each job then cost? Well, now we are close to ONLY $190,000.00 PER JOB. So let's delude ourselves and go with this, more favorable, number. These are not all high paying jobs, but they aren't all low paying either. So let's delude ourselves MORE and say they are all in the range of 80k per year. Additional taxes paid because of these jobs will be around $20k per year, and given the time value of money, it will take around 15 years to just break even. Yikes, but these numbers are delusional, aren't they. Still, even if these numbers were real would it be the case among you leftists that this would make sense, would be a good idea? Is there no better way to allow the private sector to create jobs than by spending hundreds of thousands for each job?
I guess what I am really asking is this...Trying to stimulate the economy has made our nation less wealthy, and will make our heirs pay off our own debts, yet you leftists want more of the same. Is it possible to you that Mr. Obama is wrong, and Mr. Romney is more right, about how an economy works? Because as I look at things, and I see the marginal increase in debt at $3.5 trillion (meaning that much more debt than would have existed had Bush's policies simply remained in effect), and we are still unable to achieve employment levels that existed when Mr. Obama took office, then I have to conclude that throwing money at the problem might not be efficacious. That, and I know I'm far out on a limb here with you leftists, but that maybe the "solution" has been making things worse, not better. That, and if I haven't lost you yet this should do it, maybe we should contemplate market fundamentals and how we have, and continue, to try to artificially modify them, as a better, and less costly, solution.
Mr. Obama is incapable of any of this. He doesn't understand business, let alone economics. And judging by his supporters' economic acuity he can't even poll you for help.
There should be two letters behind GOP: GOPDN for "Do Nothing", except to argue and provide more exemptions to the elite.
What a complete waste of time. Unreal, nothing but political garbage from Washington. Our leaders are no longer capable of legislating. Really sad..
At least the Republicans will seek Justice for the death of Brian Terry!
If you walk….don’t come back….and leave your lifetime medical and pension at the door too!
Nothing like the GOPDN wasting money and valuable time. I'd like to suit them for wasting the tax payers money and time with all their arguments.
This is nothing more than political theater to distract from the GOP's abysmal performance over the past two years. Boehner, Cantor, and McConnell are nothing more than the three stooges of the GOP big money guys. All they can do is sit, stay, and fetch on command.
Eric (with)Holder will never comply with any court order.... he has a friend in the Oval Office, with his feet up on that famous desk... who has no qualms using an Executive Order to trample on the US Constitution.. a document he's never liked!
When do the GOP congressman sue and or indite Bush and his AG? Apples and apples here boys!
ROFL, wasn't it Issa himself a few weeks ago who had to admit that there was no real evidence of any misconduct?
Devil's Son (1.131)... you are referring to a different program that was ended during Bush's term,because IT DIDN'T WORK! Holder's Fast and Furious program was a perversion of the ealier Wide Receiver thing. Please don't waste our time on a non-issue! Typical liberal diversion.... lol!
I thought the Courts already said they would not hear the case.
What else would you expect from the GOP when they have nothing else to offer. It's just a distraction to take the heat of their clown, Romney. (LOL !) He failed 2 of his 3 overseas missions this past week. (LOL!!!). Is this the Best the GOP has to offer???????????????????????
Hi Jan,
Well at least you backed off your pathetically stupid claim that Bush and Cheney admitted they are criminals. Now you are down to the still pathetic, but more debateable claim, that they are convicted war criminals unable to leave the USA. Both can leave the USA. If they travel to some countries where your intellectual brethren dominate the political structure then a serious international crisis could develop. I would hate to see some leftist twits in their countries, not unlike you here, try to arrest a president or vice-president on charges. Our national response would be swift, I hope, and militarily devastating.
Neither Bush or Cheney are convicted war criminals in any court of law. Neither admitted to any wrong doing. Neither has had charges read against him. Or evidence presented. Or witnesses to testify. I would be happy to debate you about the law, or about economics, or about any other subject you want to embarrass yourself about, but the simple fact that you are jurisprudentially inept doesn't mean that Bush or Cheney is guilty of anything. Now, would you mind refraining from posting your hysterical drivel and instead focus on something which can be debated with facts and reason?
Unfortunately for me I will be gone for three days playing golf and enjoying my life with friends, and so I won't be able to hang on your every insane utterance. But, rest assured, I will return in three days time and look at the lunacy you have posted, perhaps even offering to you a reply which will sail, once again, several feet above your head.
Ms Toasty (Toasty?)
Again you leave out significant information! Issa was lamenting the fact that Eric Holder was withholding documents sought by the investigators! That's why we are discussing this lawsuit.... duhhhhh! lmao!
Mr. Toasty.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/25/us/issa-says-no-evidence-of-white-house-cover-up-in-guns-case.html
You right wing ZEALOTS are INSANE!! You want Holder in jail, but not Alberto Gonzales. You want Pres Obama in jail, but not bushcheney!! You can't have it both ways!! Teabag /rethugs see crimes where there are none, but are blind to the crimes like two illegal wars, the raping of wall street, the pillaging of home values, the fleecing of your 401K accounts, 911 allowed to happen. But you want to put Mr. Holder, and this President in prison FOR NOTHING!!! The teabag/rethug party of no-jobs is PATHETIC!! Now, you can collapse me....PEACE!
Hi Independent Thinker (now there is an oxymoron!),
No, no court has heard the complaint against Holder yet. See, the House only recently voted to hold Holder in contempt. It was the Department of Justice, based upon the claim by Mr. Obama's assertion of priviledge that discussions he was never party to, programs he was unaware of, and documents he has never seen, that they would not pursue this as a criminal matter. DOJ can reverse course, but it's hard to imagine how since Holder runs the department. So the only remedy for Congress is to take Holder to court, where as a civil matter Holder, for the president too, will have to prove why these documents are privileged and outside the purview of Congress.
Still, it is nice to know that someone who claims to be an independent thinker would have spent so much time learning about a subject on which he is prepared to render a judgement. If only people like you were the abberation.
Do some of you even stop to read what you're posting or even bother to THINK for yourselves? First I'll pick on the Democrats here, simply because they make themselves such an easy target. I've seen repeatedly the comments that the Republicans need to get back to work, focus on jobs, etc. Granted, and I don't disagree with this, however, do people not realize that while the Republicans are the majority, there are plenty of Democrats up there as well? Are you really saying that you don't care if ALL of Congress does their job, just that you want the Republicans to fix everything without the Democrats participation? Where are the jobs bills you're crying for that have been submitted to the Congress by the Democrats, other than the pathetic attempt by Obama? Should not ALL our elected representatives be working for us? Next, enough with the names and senseless rhetoric. It doesn't make you look "sophisticated" or "cool", rather it simply makes you look small minded and hateful. (Actually that applies to BOTH parties.) Finally, the crowing of "what about guns don't kill people" is ridiculous. We are all reasonably intelligent people here, and I would suspect each and every person here has the sense to know the difference in that while a gun is an inanimate object, a person is what makes the decision to pull the trigger. The issue is not if F&F is a contradiction to that sentiment but instead would these people have had the same access to the weapons if F&F had never existed.
Next to the Republicans. The GOP isn't innocent, and they aren't angels, so stop trying to portray them as such. They have sold out our country every bit as much as the Democrats, perhaps even more so. Enough with the democrats are evil and republicans love us bs, it simply isn't true. See above regarding namecalling.
Fact is, F&F was a bad idea and should never have happened. Whoever is behind this should be prosecuted fully, and Congress has every right to pursue this. The "executive priviledge" clause concerns me, as it implies this may have come from Obama himself - which is surely why the Republicans won't let it go. Either way, just as with Romneys tax returns, we won't know until the documentation is available. Now, should Congress be focused on other issues? Yes and no. Any instance of injustice at this level needs to be seen through and prosecuted, so they're not "wrong", however, this shouldn't be their ONLY focus either. Obama promised to focus on jobs as well, yet it was reported this week that he's been working with other countries on sending "advisors" to Syria. Multi-tasking is your friend, and these people we've elected need to learn it!
There's a compromise to be made here. The White House can agree to release the requested documents if and only if the Romney campaign also agrees to release his tax returns, the emails and records from his administration as governor, the Olympic records from Salt Lake City, and a list of all of his bundlers and anonymous donors. Then the public and media can dig through all of it and determine who has more hidden dirt. Deal?
Jim Silver, you are blind. 450 GUNS WENT MISSING. So 450 is ok one thousand is a big deal? Different program yes. Different administration yes. Same exact results DAMN RIGHT SKIPPY!
Hey Mackman,
Um, I think there is enough right wing fanaticism to say that some people want Holder or Obama in jail. I don't get the impeachment claims either. But this is no more fanatical than leftists who make claims, as you just did, about illegal wars (they were perfectly legal--the question was over whether it was wise policy), or the raping of Wall Street (I think you mean the opposite, as in the raping by Wall Street, but here you are mostly wrong too. Most people raped themselves), or the loss of home values (as if Bush had a supply/demand machine in order to create prices), and so on.
I think for most people, right of center or not, they want to know that their government is not operating programs which end up financing or funneling weapons to criminals which then ends up killing innocent people. I think we want to know that our government's best defense for itself isn't that "Bush did it too", particularly given that Linebacker was contemplated and then killed for being a bad idea, but that under Mr. Obama F and F was configured differently and NOT killed (didn't Obama learn anything from previous administrations?). I think most of us, those who care about liberty at least, want to know that our government doesn't undertake programs with the nefarious goal of using the predictable bad outcomes from the program to then undermine individual liberty. There is much more worth thinking about here, but I don't want your head to explode either. So just one more thing.
I think most of us want to know that a government that created a program so pathetically flawed in concept and execution, with now known nefarious motives too, would at least be able to explain how it happened, who started it, who knew about it, and when the blank hit the fan, who went to Mr. and Mrs. Terry and apologized by saying it was his fault. Yet we have none of this. All we have are leftists saying Bush started the program. Yet another lie told here. Talk about predictable.
Rich-281385; Do you not respect the COH here? It is one thing to disagree with a post but to result to name calling violates that code and I'm calling you out on it. Shame on you for your post #1.136
Jan don't be so silly. Obama is hiding the evidence for Holder. Why Obama don't allowed to release the documents that Issa is requesting, not the 70,000 pages of garbage this is a legal obstruction of justice by the President. Where are the internal e-mail and and the confidential information that Holder is hiding. Where is the transparency of this administration.
ROY WILSON-336103
Tom Marvolo "This could prove to be Obama's Watergate. The cover-up is always worse than the crime."
Agreed. How can Obama claim 'Executive Privilege", which only applies to White House communications, unless Obama was directly involved in covering up the 'Fast & Furious' program?
George W. Bush invoked executive privilege six times. One of those instances was to block disclosure of the members of Dick Cheney's Energy Committee and the minutes of the meetings. GW Bush was not involved in the meetings. So you can thank GW Bush for setting the precedent.
And as for those who claim "It's a 'witch hunt' by a Republican Congress", perhaps they should remember that the Watergate investigation against Nixon was done by a Democratic Congress, so what's the difference.
Two differences. 1) The investigation against Nixon was conducted by the Senate Watergate Committee consisting of 4 Democrats and 3 Republicans. (but I guess like any good republican, you're going to tell this story anyway you like). 2) Read the Fortune Magazine Investigation into Fast and Furious. I believe you'll see a few differences.
What is Obama REALLY trying to hide?
Why don't you ask the Grand Jury what they are trying to hide? Since they sealed the records requested by Issa. And as long as we're talking about Issa's strong belief in the power of subpenas, how about he honors two he received from Roger Clemens' attorneys?
Golly gee Bob...the Ol_Jackass thing...really clever. Well at least you started out cleverly. Than you slam a Conservative investigation by citing an article from a Neo-Conservative organization. All very credible Bob. Why is it only Neo-Conservative organizations (actually only 1) who attack this investigation. I'll tell you what...Bob, why don't you come up with a credible publication. It's kind of sad really. This publication was founded by William F Buckley, a staunch conservative with whom I seldom agreed but had a good deal of respect for. I'm afraid Mr. Buckley would be spinning in his grave if he saw a copy of his beloved publication now. Of course, he couldn't be part of the new Neo-Republican party as he would be considered a socialist.
Jan,
The rich are forcing people to vote republican to keep their taxes lower than ever in history.
You cant be serious.
The Republicans are clearly desparate, to try to use this as campaign fodder.
and then what will they do when DoJ refuses to pursue the case?
Funny how the ones running the system have no problem lieing under oath like it means nothing guess they are above everything like gun running
After all the silly arguing and bickering about who did what and when, the funny thing is no one in this room knows who did what and when. Blame Bush, blame Obama...you people (and I mean all of you) will believe what you want to believe regardless of the information out there. The trouble is so much of the information out there is incomplete, inaccurate or down right wrong and misleading. As is all the news coming out of the Media, regardless of the source, Especially the networks.
I see one of two things happening here.
1) Obama filed the executive privilege to ensnare the Republicans in a trap and make it look like a witch hunt. In other words, there is nothing in the withheld documents to show foul play or cover up and the WH will reveal these documents just prior to the election to make Issa and the others look foolish.
2) The court will finally order the release of these documents, well after the election, and it will show that there was indeed a cover up, and the conspiracy theorists were correct that Obama was going to use the drug violence in Mexico as an excuse to regulate guns in this country. But nothing will come of it, other than some low (lower) level scapegoat will get the blame and maybe the jail time.
And the one true question, "What really happened and who ordered it?"(for the sake of all those victims families) will remain unanswered, at for a couple decades. I hope I am wrong. It would be nice to finally hold someone in office accountable for this debacle, whether it be Obama or Issa.
Holder is a coward.
He's an embarrassment to the word justice. He's a biased, self-centered, egotists that decides what and when justice should be served based on his ideology rather than the law. This is criminal.
I bet he'd be handling this case differently if Brian Terry was black.
Ironic how so many comments from the right are censored...
I was talking with a liberal and the subject of censorship came up, he was strongly against it, as it is "against American values"...... Yes, censorship is abhorrent, except when the commentary is something you disagree with .....
Please, get real, if you want to be taken seriously... and again, disagreement is not tantamount to hate....
HOLD the presses! Did they say that the "tort reform" people filed a Lawsuit??????? Words cannot express how totally funny and bizarre that is. lmfao@u
Fortune magazine's article left out some very key issues, like the letters from the gun dealers TO the ATF voicing concern about the illegal sales, that didn't even get in. Then, they want to paint this as an internecine feud except that the fueding started AFTER Terry was killed. As to the guns found at the scene of the murder, not too much mention given about how the murderers were stalking and looking to kill border agents on THIS side of the border. Terry was killed inside the US, on US soil, by Mexican criminals hunting border agents using weapons that had been illegally 'sold' to the criminals by the ATF.
Then, no mention is ever made of all the 'hits' placed on the heads of American law enforcement. Sorry, Fast and Furious was a scam and it blew up and lots of innocent people were killed, Mexicans and Americans alike. Obama and Holder are doing a coverup and the liberal media never even covered the story until the SHTF with Holder. Except CBS. Kudoes to them for breaking the story. NBC ignored the story and then tried to spin it away, just like the Obama supporters are attempting to spin it away.
I'm glad to see Obama has made good on his promise of more transparency in government.
Gee, did Feisty get fired from MSNBC? Or was she one of the casualties shot as an innocent bystander in Chicago?
JoanOfSnark
It's issue is not whether the 'Fast and Furious' program was a good idea - everyone is agreed that it was a huge mistake - but whether there is a 'coverup' going on as to who approved it, and by invoking 'Executive Privilege', it raises the question as to whether Obama was directly involved in approving the operation, or, as is more likely, Obama is providing a cover-up for Eric Holder because the documents requested would show that Holder deliberately lied to Congress - which is a crime.
Remember that Nixon was forced to resign not because he ordered the Watergate break-in, but because he tried to cover for those in his administration that did order the break-in, after he found out about it. That's what makes the comparison to Watergate pertinent.
Obama has put this country five and one half trillion dollars more in debt, but that is not the worst! He has had printed a total of sixteen trillion more in unbacked currency! That put all our saving in the dumpster! You ask where the jobs are. He did all of this just to cover the pay back to his backers! He has spent twenty one trillion plus and still no jobs! What an incompetent lying ass!
Now he uses executive privilege to protect the direct involvment of his administration of the murder of our border patrol agent! By his order our agents are to use only bean bags as bullets in shoot outs with heavily armed drug smugglers on our borders! Maybe his personnel guards should be equipped with bean bags! I wonder how comfortable he would be with that! If I was the parent or family of the dead border agent I would want that lying bastard Obama to let the truth be known!
I do not care how the lefties try to spin their bulls--t! Their man is a lying, thieving bastard in any sense of the word! All your spin will not make his smell go away!
Tom,
This Looks MORE like a GOP WATER-BED than a Water-Gate
Witch hunt! Witch hunt!
Nah, the 'witch hunt' is ol Reid claiming facts not in evidence. Those accused of witchcraft were often 'dunked' a practice where the unfortunate was tied up and tossed into a pond. If they sank and died they were innocent, if they didn't die they were guilty of witchcraft. In the case of Fast and Furious, the dead were a federal agent and several hundred innocent Mexicans, but hey, we don't want to know the truth here, those dead people are inconsequential to a political career. Let the coverups commence. Obama, your supporters have your back, they don't care who you lie and coverup for.
If they have nothing to hide just release the freaking documents already. Who gives a crap.
More lies as actually putting most of the Bush debt administration ON the books is one heck of a way to make that deficit "look like it's all Obama's" when it isn't. Why don't you do some real research for a change and SEE how much "spending" has been done on Obama's watch compared to past administratikon instead of choosing to just HATE the man and follow your "lying bastards"? Highest deficit in the hsitory of this country? The REAGAN Administration, followed by the LAST Administration. FACTS. Cold hard undeniable FACTS and this crappola farce is just more political theater to detract from this useless House's record. Issa and his GOP controlled House wasted more taxpayer money with their "war on the FAA union" when all those airports were shut down, laying off thousands of workers for weeks that almost ran up a price tag to ONE BILLION DOLLARS over a paltry few million in labour union contracts.
Then of course we had that six month long investigation foring PP to release 8 YEARS of documents so the GOP could "wage their war on PP" as if all these endless abortion bills are going to help put people back to work. Then how about Boehner's hiring lawyers in his defense of DOMA? Who do you think is paying for THAT? The TAXPAYERS as well as all the endless accidents and disasters of the OIL INDUSTRY who have more money than any industry on the planet but WE are still being forced to subsidize to the tune of BILLIONS per year while you reight wingers whine about SOLYNDRA. Go peddle your nonsense elsewhere as that's all it is-NONSENSE and hypocrisy so thick it would take the worlds biggest payloader to plow through it. Too bad Catepillar is even building the majority of THOSE in China these days while cutting benefits to their employees.
Obama/Biden 2012
Let me answer for all of the Obama apologists out there.
1. Obama and Holder are desperately trying to keep the lid on Fast and Furious so that they can have an easier road to re-election.
2. Bush did have a similar program, but, the guns had gps installed and every weapon's location was known. Obama and Holder's program had no such system to track the weapons. All of the records on Bush's program were released when requested. I do not see the same with Obama and Holder!
3. If Obama and Holder both say that nothing happened that was illegal during their operation, why don't they release the information instead of calling for "Executive Priveledge"! (Sounds like something Nixon would have done, huh!)
4. Since Obama is not being forthcoming with the information about this operation he must be hiding the information for just one reason, HE LIED!
5. Why don't we hear the Occupiers chanting outside the White House, "Obama lied and an innocent american died"? The reason is that we have a community activist in the White House and his brownshirts will bow to his will, "for the greater good". (LMFAO)!
I guess it is only important for a President to tell the truth to his people if he is a Republican! Obama can lie because "he is only doing what is best for us" (Crying MFAO!)
Our deficit over the obama administration has grown larger than any other. bush was very bad obama was worse. How you can try to twist that around is amazing. FACTS COLD HARD FACTS. Deficit just this year $1.2T. Entire time 8 YEARS bush was in office $2.5T Largest single year for bush about $400-500 billion.. You can lie all you want but the cold hard facts will bite you in the rear end every time.
Ted
Twisted mind = twisted facts.
BREAKING NEWS!
An official from the Justice Department has announced that President Obama and Vice President Joe Biden were aware of Fast & Furious weeks before Border Agent Brian Terry was killed. The official, requesting anonymity due to the case being under internal investigation, states that he believes the President issued his Executive Privelege inappropriately in an attempt to avoid further investigation. The White House and Justice Department have not issued a response.
Never to late to disprove Roy,,again.
Roy, straight from wikipedia,,,,,,George W. Bush administration
The Bush administration invoked executive privilege on six occasions.
President George W. Bush first asserted executive privilege to deny disclosure of sought details regarding former Attorney General Janet Reno,[2] the scandal involving Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) misuse of organized-crime informants James J. Bulger and Stephen Flemmi in Boston, and Justice Department deliberations about President Bill Clinton's fundraising tactics, in December 2001.[8]
Bush invoked executive privilege "in substance" in refusing to disclose the details of Vice President Dick Cheney's meetings with energy executives, which was not appealed by the GAO. In a separate Supreme Court decision in 2004, however, Justice Anthony Kennedy noted "Executive privilege is an extraordinary assertion of power 'not to be lightly invoked.' United States v. Reynolds, 345 U.S. 1, 7 (1953).
"Once executive privilege is asserted, coequal branches of the Government are set on a collision course. The Judiciary is forced into the difficult task of balancing the need for information in a judicial proceeding and the Executive’s Article II prerogatives. This inquiry places courts in the awkward position of evaluating the Executive’s claims of confidentiality and autonomy, and pushes to the fore difficult questions of separation of powers and checks and balances. These 'occasion[s] for constitutional confrontation between the two branches' are likely to be avoided whenever possible. United States v. Nixon, supra, at 692."[9]
Further, on June 28, 2007, Bush invoked executive privilege in response to congressional subpoenas requesting documents from former presidential counsel Harriet Miers and former political director Sara Taylor,[10] citing that:
George W. Bush administration
The Bush administration invoked executive privilege on six occasions.
President George W. Bush first asserted executive privilege to deny disclosure of sought details regarding former Attorney General Janet Reno,[2] the scandal involving Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) misuse of organized-crime informants James J. Bulger and Stephen Flemmi in Boston, and Justice Department deliberations about President Bill Clinton's fundraising tactics, in December 2001.[8]
Bush invoked executive privilege "in substance" in refusing to disclose the details of Vice President Dick Cheney's meetings with energy executives, which was not appealed by the GAO. In a separate Supreme Court decision in 2004, however, Justice Anthony Kennedy noted "Executive privilege is an extraordinary assertion of power 'not to be lightly invoked.' United States v. Reynolds, 345 U.S. 1, 7 (1953).
"Once executive privilege is asserted, coequal branches of the Government are set on a collision course. The Judiciary is forced into the difficult task of balancing the need for information in a judicial proceeding and the Executive’s Article II prerogatives. This inquiry places courts in the awkward position of evaluating the Executive’s claims of confidentiality and autonomy, and pushes to the fore difficult questions of separation of powers and checks and balances. These 'occasion[s] for constitutional confrontation between the two branches' are likely to be avoided whenever possible. United States v. Nixon, supra, at 692."[9]
Further, on June 28, 2007, Bush invoked executive privilege in response to congressional subpoenas requesting documents from former presidential counsel Harriet Miers and former political director Sara Taylor,[10] citing that:
The reason for these distinctions rests upon a bedrock presidential prerogative: for the President to perform his constitutional duties, it is imperative that he receive candid and unfettered advice and that free and open discussions and deliberations occur among his advisors and between those advisors and others within and outside the Executive Branch.
On July 9, 2007, Bush again invoked executive privilege to block a congressional subpoena requiring the testimonies of Taylor and Miers. Furthermore, White House Counsel Fred F. Fielding refused to comply with a deadline set by the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee to explain its privilege claim, prove that the president personally invoked it, and provide logs of which documents were being withheld. On July 25, 2007, the House Judiciary Committee voted to cite Miers and White House Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten for contempt of Congress.[11][12]
On July 13, less than a week after claiming executive privilege for Miers and Taylor, Counsel Fielding effectively claimed the privilege once again, this time in relation to documents related to the 2004 death of Army Ranger Pat Tillman. In a letter to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, Fielding claimed certain papers relating to discussion of the friendly-fire shooting “implicate Executive Branch confidentiality interests” and would therefore not be turned over to the committee.[13]
On August 1, 2007, Bush invoked the privilege for the fourth time in little over a month, this time rejecting a subpoena for Karl Rove. The subpoena would have required the President's Senior Advisor to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee in a probe over fired federal prosecutors. In a letter to Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy, Fielding claimed that "Mr. Rove, as an immediate presidential advisor, is immune from compelled congressional testimony about matters that arose during his tenure and that relate to his official duties in that capacity...."[14]
Leahy claimed that President Bush was not involved with the employment terminations of U.S. attorneys. Furthermore, he asserted that the president's executive privilege claims protecting Josh Bolten, and Karl Rove are illegal. The Senator demanded that Bolten, Rove, Sara Taylor, and J. Scott Jennings comply "immediately" with their subpoenas, presumably to await a further review of these matters. This development paved the way for a Senate panel vote on whether to advance the citations to the full Senate. "It is obvious that the reasons given for these firings were contrived as part of a cover up and that the stonewalling by the White House is part and parcel of that same effort", Leahy concluded about these incidents.[15][16][17][18]
As of July 17, 2008, Rove is still claiming exec
On July 9, 2007, Bush again invoked executive privilege to block a congressional subpoena requiring the testimonies of Taylor and Miers. Furthermore, White House Counsel Fred F. Fielding refused to comply with a deadline set by the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee to explain its privilege claim, prove that the president personally invoked it, and provide logs of which documents were being withheld. On July 25, 2007, the House Judiciary Committee voted to cite Miers and White House Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten for contempt of Congress.[11][12]
On July 13, less than a week after claiming executive privilege for Miers and Taylor, Counsel Fielding effectively claimed the privilege once again, this time in relation to documents related to the 2004 death of Army Ranger Pat Tillman. In a letter to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, Fielding claimed certain papers relating to discussion of the friendly-fire shooting “implicate Executive Branch confidentiality interests” and would therefore not be turned over to the committee.[13]
On August 1, 2007, Bush invoked the privilege for the fourth time in little over a month, this time rejecting a subpoena for Karl Rove. The subpoena would have required the President's Senior Advisor to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee in a probe over fired federal prosecutors. In a letter to Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy, Fielding claimed that "Mr. Rove, as an immediate presidential advisor, is immune from compelled congressional testimony about matters that arose during his tenure and that relate to his official duties in that capacity...."[14]
Leahy claimed that President Bush was not involved with the employment terminations of U.S. attorneys. Furthermore, he asserted that the president's executive privilege claims protecting Josh Bolten, and Karl Rove are illegal. The Senator demanded that Bolten, Rove, Sara Taylor, and J. Scott Jennings comply "immediately" with their subpoenas, presumably to await a further review of these matters. This development paved the way for a Senate panel vote on whether to advance the citations to the full Senate. "It is obvious that the reasons given for these firings were contrived as part of a cover up and that the stonewalling by the White House is part and parcel of that same effort", Leahy concluded about these incidents.[15][16][17][18]
"
George W. Bush administration
The Bush administration invoked executive privilege on six occasions.
President George W. Bush first asserted executive privilege to deny disclosure of sought details regarding former Attorney General Janet Reno,[2] the scandal involving Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) misuse of organized-crime informants James J. Bulger and Stephen Flemmi in Boston, and Justice Department deliberations about President Bill Clinton's fundraising tactics, in December 2001.[8]
Bush invoked executive privilege "in substance" in refusing to disclose the details of Vice President Dick Cheney's meetings with energy executives, which was not appealed by the GAO. In a separate Supreme Court decision in 2004, however, Justice Anthony Kennedy noted "Executive privilege is an extraordinary assertion of power 'not to be lightly invoked.' United States v. Reynolds, 345 U.S. 1, 7 (1953).
"Once executive privilege is asserted, coequal branches of the Government are set on a collision course. The Judiciary is forced into the difficult task of balancing the need for information in a judicial proceeding and the Executive’s Article II prerogatives. This inquiry places courts in the awkward position of evaluating the Executive’s claims of confidentiality and autonomy, and pushes to the fore difficult questions of separation of powers and checks and balances. These 'occasion[s] for constitutional confrontation between the two branches' are likely to be avoided whenever possible. United States v. Nixon, supra, at 692."[9]
Further, on June 28, 2007, Bush invoked executive privilege in response to congressional subpoenas requesting documents from former presidential counsel Harriet Miers and former political director Sara Taylor,[10] citing that:
The reason for these distinctions rests upon a bedrock presidential prerogative: for the President to perform his constitutional duties, it is imperative that he receive candid and unfettered advice and that free and open discussions and deliberations occur among his advisors and between those advisors and others within and outside the Executive Branch.
On July 9, 2007, Bush again invoked executive privilege to block a congressional subpoena requiring the testimonies of Taylor and Miers. Furthermore, White House Counsel Fred F. Fielding refused to comply with a deadline set by the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee to explain its privilege claim, prove that the president personally invoked it, and provide logs of which documents were being withheld. On July 25, 2007, the House Judiciary Committee voted to cite Miers and White House Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten for contempt of Congress.[11][12]
On July 13, less than a week after claiming executive privilege for Miers and Taylor, Counsel Fielding effectively claimed the privilege once again, this time in relation to documents related to the 2004 death of Army Ranger Pat Tillman. In a letter to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, Fielding claimed certain papers relating to discussion of the friendly-fire shooting “implicate Executive Branch confidentiality interests” and would therefore not be turned over to the committee.[13]
On August 1, 2007, Bush invoked the privilege for the fourth time in little over a month, this time rejecting a subpoena for Karl Rove. The subpoena would have required the President's Senior Advisor to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee in a probe over fired federal prosecutors. In a letter to Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy, Fielding claimed that "Mr. Rove, as an immediate presidential advisor, is immune from compelled congressional testimony about matters that arose during his tenure and that relate to his official duties in that capacity...."[14]
Leahy claimed that President Bush was not involved with the employment terminations of U.S. attorneys. Furthermore, he asserted that the president's executive privilege claims protecting Josh Bolten, and Karl Rove are illegal. The Senator demanded that Bolten, Rove, Sara Taylor, and J. Scott Jennings comply "immediately" with their subpoenas, presumably to await a further review of these matters. This development paved the way for a Senate panel vote on whether to advance the citations to the full Senate. "It is obvious that the reasons given for these firings were contrived as part of a cover up and that the stonewalling by the White House is part and parcel of that same effort", Leahy concluded about these incidents.[15][16][17][18]
"The reason for these distinctions rests upon a bedrock presidential prerogative: for the President to perform his constitutional duties, it is imperative that he receive candid and unfettered advice and that free and open discussions and deliberations occur among his advisors and between those advisors and others within and outside the Executive Branch." from a authority,and Roys quote"executive privilage only is for use inside the executive branch", Roy you are one loose canon, and blowing smoke out your pipe..LOL. It is a political move, now supported by only Republicans, and not comparable to watergate, which was a bi-partisian commission. Roy can "suppose" all he wants but. for now stating as Roy will, claims a connection that is not there,,,,,get it Roy,,,, where is your normal "suppose" when talking past the obvious? More political rant from the "Master in Business Administration". I guess college was not all it turned out to be.
Is there any doubt that the White House is attempting to cover this up? Dealing with this administration is like dealing with the Mafia. The American people need justice here along with the family of this slain border patrol. Obama will do anything in his power or really, anything outside his power to stop any further investigation. Let's hope his days are numbered and we can take our country back from so many that live in this country that are anti-America along with Obama.
The anonymous official was Daffy Duck. "Despicable I tell you, despicable!". The Republican leadership is Elmer Fudd. "I'm gonna get that wascally wabbit if it's the last thing I do." They held secret meetings to do just that before President Obama was even sworn in. They have done nothing but that since 1/20/2009 despite the grievous suffering of millions of American citizens.
Warner Brothers kept us entertained with the acts of their cartoon characters. The Republican leadership? Not so much. The same old plot time and time again. Just different characters. There was Whitewater to destroy President Clinton. Nothing to see here folks, keep on moving, despite costing taxpayers wasted millions. The Clintons murdered Vince Foster! Again, nothing to see here folks, keep on moving, despite costing taxpayers wasted millions.
Then there was Monica Lewinsky. By God, we've finally nailed him! All of this attention over a BJ in the office and stains on a blue dress? C'mon now. at least half of the men in America got by with much much more serious affairs and most of them were Republicans or Christian right perverts preying on underage subordinates. Lewinsky was nothing but an adult immoral groupie eager to blow and tell. She made millions. The Republican leadership spread such filth on the evening news to embarrass mixed company and their kids. President Clinton lied to cover a private affair that only concerned his family. It was enough for the holier than thou(Gingrich of all people) to impeach him, but not enough to remove him from office. Once again, nothing to see here folks, keep on moving, despite costing taxpayers many more wasted millions.
They put Howdy Doody in charge to inherit the greatest economy in American history only to destroy it to rival the Great Depression. The American people then elected a half black president that exemplifies the American dream to rival the "poor boy makes good" story of Honest Abe himself. The poop hit the fan. We can't have that. For Christs sake, we don't call it the White-house for nothing!
Poor Mittens will have to fumigate the entire grounds before Ann will move in. The car elevators planned for the East and West wings will just have to wait until all of the cooties are removed under Ann's strict orders. Romney suggested that maybe they shouldn't make such a fuss on day one. Ann fumed and exclaimed, "No, you know how "those people" are.
An Independant Thinker:
@ 1.35 you said: "I thought the Courts already said they would not hear the case." Are you trying to conceal an out right lie and and propaganda with "I thought". Courts don't do that and any intelligent person knows that. You are playing to the ignorant.
I thought I read that Michelle had VD. Hows that?
The God Owful Party needs to go somewhere dark and very hot!
Gil, please change your name! You embarrass me.
Bob-1920561 "Never to late to disprove Roy,,again."
When did I EVER claim that Bush never invoked 'Executive Privilege"?
Since I didn't, "Never too late to disprove Bob, again".
lol
By the way - there is a difference between 'to' and 'too'. Did you by any chance learn your grammar in Chicago?
It becomes apparent that those supporting Obama are also those dependent on big Nanny government. Obama and clan could boil puppies alive and the supporters would still make excuses and vain attempts to defend him. Can't bite the hand that feed you. Noticed today that the largest supporters of Obama all work for the government, primarily in DC. Odd, no?
Commonsense: Ever hear about Parson Weem's Fables? You are well on your way to putting Obama in the land of fairytales. Larger than life, greater than legend, able to jump tall building in a single bound. When you get aroung to deifying him perhaps you should think about the injunction against false idols, Obama as God is a tad much.
Well, here's the really ironic part of all this:
Darrell Issa pretends he has never heard of Project Gunrunner, yet in 2008 he specifically voted to fund Project Gunrunner.
Apparently, there is more than just a huge connection between Merida Initiative and Project Gunrunner whereby Project Gunrunner funding, per HR-6028, is directly enveloped into the Merida Initiative.
In October 2007, President Bush and Mexico's President Calderon announced the Mérida Initiative, is a Billions of dollar aid package to support President Calderón's war on drugs by, among other things, sending military grade weapons and helicopters to Mexico. Project Gunrunner was Legislated into the Merida Initiative through HR-6028 in 2008. After ample Congressional debate on conditionality and appropriations, the US Congress approved the initiative in HR-6028 without any strings attached.
Before Issa investigates Obama, Holder, et al for this, perhaps he should investigate himself! Yeah, like that's gonna happen!
Roy, deflects again, "And as for those who claim "It's a 'witch hunt' by a Republican Congress", perhaps they should remember that the Watergate investigation against Nixon was done by a Democratic Congress, so what's the difference." without the ? mark. Master in what, Roy? And than we have this, "How can Obama claim Executive Privilege", which only applies to White House communications," again the link to Wikipedia explains in itself that Roy is wrong, and won't admit it but move on "to,too" other derogatory statements. Roy, check the footnotes in the Wikipedia quote, executive privilage was used to stop disclosure of communications outside the executive branch. You are stuck in the 70's, with the watergate tapes,,,,,,LOL.
I "suppose" Roy won't ever accept his lack of credibility, so sad...............
Here Roy, let me help you to understand the difference............http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Senate_Watergate_Committee, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal.
So you want to implicate the present administration with what evidence? You are the National Enquiror of NewsVine, and a political hack from the 60's. Read the Fortune article on this "smoking gun" tabloid, FauxNews, disservice to our country. By the way how are things in Costa Rico?
Ah, so democrats can conduct a witch hunt too? Interesting. Now. When was Fast and Furious started? All under Obama. Note as well that Fast and Furious wasn't about sending military weapons or helicopters to Mexico and most importantly, the Bush administration was working WITH Mexico. Obama and Holder's DOJ didn't tell Mexico about their special little sting.
Wrong, fast and furious was started under Pres. Bush, by the Homeland Security.
Who thought up the idea to use gunwalking to try to counter gun trafficking
to Mexican drug cartels?
Nobody has publicly acknowledged being the architect of the plan and
available documents shed no light on the answer. Justice Department officials
have maintained it was a scandal brainstormed at the ATF Phoenix level. The same
ATF Special Agent in Charge, Bill Newell, supervised the Bush era Wide Receiver
gunwalking operation and some of the later gunwalking cases, including Fast and
Furious. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57461204-10391695/a-primer-on-the-fast-and-furious-scandal/.
.........and your facts?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal, started in 2006,,,,,,,
"Gun walking" or "letting guns walk" was a tactic whereby the ATF "purposely allowed licensed firearms dealers to sell weapons to illegal straw buyers, hoping to track the guns to Mexican drug cartel leaders."[7] The stated goal of allowing these purchases was to continue to track the firearms as they were transferred to higher-level traffickers and key figures in Mexican cartels, with the expectation that this would lead to their arrests and the dismantling of the cartels.[8][9] The tactic was questioned during the operations by a number of people, including ATF field agents and cooperating licensed gun dealers.[10][11][12][13][14] Operation Fast and Furious, by far the largest "gunwalking" probe, monitored the sale of over 2,000 firearms, of which nearly 700 were recovered as of October 20, 2011 (2011 -10-20)[update].[15] A number of straw purchasers have been arrested and indicted; however, as of October 2011, none of the targeted high-level cartel figures have been arrested.[7]
And more facts,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,",In June 2012, an investigation by Fortune magazine concluded that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels.[19] Agents interviewed during the six-month Fortune magazine investigation repeatedly asserted that only one isolated incident of "gunwalking" ever occurred, and was performed independently by ATF Agent John Dodson (who later appeared on CBS News as a whistleblower to denounce the gunwalking scandal) as part of an unauthorized solo action outside of the larger Fast and Furious operation.[19]"
"All under Obama.",,,,your quote. Now state some logic or fact/site that supports your opinion...................
another quote from Wikipedia, with supporting links(*).
The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. Licensed dealer Mike Detty of Mad Dawg Global informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division.[27] With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers. With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border",[12] Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[26] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[7][27][28][29]
At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers. Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded. As of October 4, 2011 (2011 -10-04)[update], nine people had been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms.[20] As of November, charges against one defendant had been dropped; five of them had pled guilty, and one had been sentenced to one year and one day in prison. Two of them remained fugitives.[27]
[edit] The Hernandez Case
Another, smaller probe occurred in 2007 under the same ATF Phoenix field division. The Fidel Hernandez case began when the ATF identified Mexican suspects who bought weapons from a Phoenix gun shop over a span of several months. The probe ultimately involved over 200 guns, a dozen of which were lost in Mexico. On September 27, 2007, ATF agents saw the original suspects buying weapons at the same store and followed them toward the Mexican border. The ATF informed the Mexican government when the suspects successfully crossed the border, but Mexican law enforcement were unable to track them.[4][10] Less than two weeks later, on October 6, William Newell, then ATF's Special Agent in Charge (SAC) of the Phoenix field division, shut down the operation at the behest of William Hoover, ATF's assistant director for the office of field operations.[30] No charges were filed. Newell, who was Phoenix ATF SAC from June 2006 to May 2011, would later play a major role in Operation Fast and Furious.[4][12]
The Hernandez case was referenced in a briefing paper prepared for Attorney General Michael Mukasey prior to his meeting with the Mexican Attorney General Medina Mora on November 16, 2007. The paper stated, "ATF has recently worked jointly with Mexico on the first-ever attempt to have a controlled delivery of weapons being smuggled into Mexico by a major arms trafficker" and that "the first attempts at this controlled delivery have not been successful." The paper also stated, "ATF would like to expand the possibility of such joint investigations and controlled deliveries -- since only then will it be possible to investigate an entire smuggling network, rather than arresting simply a single smuggler."[31]
[edit] The Medrano Case
The 2008 Alejandro Medrano case involved both ATF SAC William Newell and cooperating Tucson gun dealer Mike Detty of Operation Wide Receiver. ATF Phoenix allowed about 100 guns to be taken into Mexico over the objections of ICE personnel who became aware of the case. Phoenix ATF SAC Newell acknowledged to ICE "that letting guns cross the border was part of ATF’s plan". In August 2010, Medrano was sentenced to 46 months, his associate Hernan Ramos received 50 months and their fellow conspirators received prison terms from 14 to 30 months, but the target, a Sinaloa Cartel kingpin nicknamed "Rambo", remained untouched inside Mexico.[32]
Here's another one for ya,,,,,,,,,,,http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/10/05/earlyshow/main20115824.shtml
and a salant fact,,,,,Mexico[3]Between 2007 and 2012, nearly 60,000 people lost their lives in Mexico’s wave of violence. 70 percent of the guns that were recovered in Mexico and submitted for tracing between 2009 and 2012 came from the United States. Of these, many recovered were AK-47 and AR-15 type rifles. [4]http://www.wola.org/video/us_guns_the_awful_shocking_truth
one more time with supporting evidence,,,,,,,,,,
Far from being "accounted for," the vast majority of the 450 guns involved in Wide Receiver were never recovered by the United States. This may have been because the ATF agents involved in Wide Receiver did not actually coordinate with the Mexican authorities as Morrissey claimed.
A report issued on January 30 by the Minority Staff of the House Oversight Committee, indicates that ATF hoped to coordinate with Mexican law enforcement during Wide Receiver, but the idea was never executed in practice.
Talking Points Memo has also noted that claims about coordination with Mexican law enforcement during Wide Receiver are false.
There are legitimate reasons to criticize the ATF tactic of allowing guns to "walk" across the U.S.-Mexico border. But it is hypocritical to rail against Holder -- who has testified that he banned the use of the gun walking tactic after learning of its existence -- while defending a Bush-era operation that employed the same flawed tactic.http://mediamatters.org/blog/2012/06/15/ed-morrisseys-operation-wide-receiver-lie-they/186866
here is another ,,,,,,,,,,,"http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0112/71127.html"
or http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/earlier-atf-gun-operation-wide-receiver-used-same-tactics-as-fast-and-furious/2011/10/06/gIQAuRHIRL_story.html
and than you have the suspicious type,,,,,,,,,,
"Wide Receiver" Wasn't Gunwalking Like Fast and Furious Is Gunwalking
Sheryl Aktinson, one of the only major media reporters even covering Fast and Furious, alleged that "Wide Receiver," a Bush era program, was a "gunwalking" program in the same sense that Fast and Furious was.
But was it?
Confederate Yankee, Bob Owens, notes that Wide Receiver actually involved surveillance -- or at least attempted surveillance. It's just that the surveillance failed.
In addition, Wide Receiver was conducted in cooperation with the Mexican authorities -- not kept secret from them, as a rogue American agency conducted a murderous covert operation in a neighboring sovereign country.
Now, Wide Receiver failed. It all seems like a pretty dumb operation in hindsight. But you can see how it could have been predicted to work -- if the surveillance works, you've nabbed your bad guys.
In Fast and Furious, there was no surveillance.
So what was the goal?
In Wide Receiver, the guns "walked" without surveillance due to technical failure of the RFID devices and the gun-runners outwitting the ATF.
Someone in the administration please tell me a story wherein Fast and Furious was also a botch, a failure -- rather than having proceeded as planned.
I don't want to think that -- that seems a little farfetched -- but unless the administration can explain how their plan to let 2000+ guns "walk" into Mexico (without a head's up for Mexican law enforcement) accidentally became a failure, rather than proceeded according to plan, there are going to be serious suspicions about our government's actual motive."http://minx.cc/?post=323260
Do you think that releasing confidential documents between the U.S.A. and Mexico Governments serves the purpose intended, on a security issue?
This is all political postering, nothing more and certainly nothing less.
Where's the jobs Issa, Boehner, Cantor?? The three biggest, stinkiest, and smelliest turds in the country. Do the peoples work or do something and if you're not going to do your job, then get the f*ck out of Congress. You're all a disgrace to this Congress, your state, and the entire country and you need to get the hell back to work!!
OBAMA/BIDEN 2012
Jim spence,
Is your tunnel visison really as bad as you express here? There is no fool like a conservative fool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iQlP2uQHs8
The highest rated comments are collapsed...oh the irony.
When people simply become fed up, does it really matter who the president is? Let's just call him "unfortunate" and move on.
A second thief entering a jewelry store after it has already been broken into and robbed is still a thief.
About time they brought this gun running racist to justice.
Agreed! It's about time. And let's hope his boss gets the heave ho for helping with the cover up...
To quote Dacapo below, "What a nasty little person you are."
What's the problem here folks? The truth hurt too much to face ? !
Issa should be replaced. He promised unending investigations to help the Romney campaign and it's more important than jobs or a farm bill.
ERIC is not even competant enough to be the HOLDER of Michelle's jock strap.
This guy has no business being Attorney General of the USA in the first place. Nothing but a bunch of minor leaguers in this administration.
Obama has surrounded himself with a group of communist and nothing but the worst has happen to this country over the past three and a half years.
Give them all the boot for failing to protect the people of the United States.
This whole thread of comment from #2 on clearly demonstrates the thought-provoking ideas that emanate from the creative minds of of the anti-Obama thinkers.
Just listen to these hard-hitting factual,rebuttal-proof, withering destruction of the pposition: "minor league",
"no business being AG"',
"communist" (our 5-year plans work great),
"worst that has happened to US"(Pearl Harbor and the World Trade Centers were just normal stuff),
"failing to protect US people" (terrorists are on every corner),
"First Lady's jock straps" (real class),
"gun-running racist",
"cover up"
In-depth, serious stuff, folks.
Eric-913730 - Ok, you say you want this to end because it is a which hunt and a waste of time. I say lets see. If this is a farce and the documents prove it than the those going after Holder will be the laughing stock. If they are right though let me know how you like your crow.
Due to the administrations stonewalling, Holder won't likely be criminally prosecuted until after the election. The one bright side is after January 2013 Obama won't be around to pardon his sorry criminal a$$.
@MTpolitical- GOOD he did not do ANYTHING + bushcheneey started this program. We gonna prosecute them too?!?! I THINK NOT!!
we should files a suit againt the GOP The only good republican is dead or unemployed
What a nasty little person you are.
Typical liberal response. Wonder if Tyler will suspend this guy. I am guessing I will get suspended for saying it was a typical liberal response.
Wow, Common Man, what an eloquent, substantive comment. I'm betting that it will surely get the most votes on this thread!
golf, you just prove once again which side is the HATEING SIDE. It's always the democRATS. Does your mommy know your on the computer again?
Golf, if all of us repubs were dead or unemployed, who would pay taxes for your welfare check?
You file this meaningless crap but you can't pass a jobs bill or a farm bill?
Vote out the Tea Party in 2012.
Irish
Actually it's not a trypical liberal response and that's why it's so bad and actually unbelievable. Do you have two names on this blog?
Ferrosynthesis is right: That statement is unbelievable. Golf is obviously a republican troll posing as a democrat, or (how can I say this politely?) someone who has nothing to contribute to the conversation. I rarely use the "ignore" option over just one comment, but in this case I will. Bye Golf.
Irish -- I've been reading your posts. I'll try to keep an open mind, but you might be next. Cleaning up my little world one step at a time.
Just one big waste of time and money.
If Obozo wouldn't have used his executive priveledge, we could be saving all that time and money!
Now it's necessary to bring the racist to justice!
Who is "Obozo"?
...oh, and the word is PRIVILEGE.
More posturing from the GOP. They have gotten rather good at wasting time, money and effort on things that do not matter (except to Rush and Hannity).
The GOP..... rearranging the Titanic deck chairs for thirty years and counting.
I agree, a total waste of time, they'd rather do nothing, than get something real done. Jane
Oh well the President can just pardon Mr. Holder.
Job1
Oh well the President can just pardon Mr. Holder.
I don't know about that J-1, maybe he will pull a Chenney and do what he did to Scooter Libby. Nah, only Repubs eat their own.
How about passing a jobs bill, or helping the farmers out with a little relief.
Vote out the Tea Party in 2012.
blackcat - "only Repubs eat their own" which totally explains those disgusting looks that they always hav on their faces!
Obama/Biden 2012
Job1
Maybe the President and Mr Holder can share a cell at Gitmo. Sounds like a solution all America should be happy with.
There is still no defender of the Party of No that can answer, "Where are the jobs?"
Boehner and the Party of No House of Representatives are only focusing on legislation that foments war against: women, minorities, the old, the young, students, the Middle Class, and Science.
Good to see that with the economy in the state that it's in, the GOP is focusing on what's most important to the American people.
I have an idea - if they can investigate Holder, let's have the Democrats investigate Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld for illegal activities leading up to the Iraq war. After all, this lead to the death of THOUSANDS of Americans and cost taxpayers hundreds of billions of dollars (or more).
To Never: July's job report came out today and the private sector added 172,000 jobs. Not bad considering all the blocking the Grover/Koch stooges have done. The problem here is the public sector lost 9,000 jobs. Just like Obama said was the problem and one he wanted to try to help but the GOP again, refused to offer any. If the public sector just held onto that 9,000 we could have had 181,000 jobs added and closer to the 200,000 needed to get out of this mess.
Sorry, my math was wrong... there would have been 172,000 jobs added for July instead of 163,000. Wall street has gone crazy today up over 200 pts.
Yes, a big waste of time and money instead of just releasing documents they lie cheat and refuse to do so. If they did nothing wrong then why is this such a big deal. Release them and get it over with. My guess, they know they lied and screwed up so they don't want to.. Nothing but a cover up from the strart and the forbes article does nothing to dispute that.
Jimsepa, it always amazing how fiscally conservative liberals are when they don't want the truth about their guys coming out! I absolutely guarantee that you would be on the frontlines screaming for blood if this were a Republican president with his head on the chopping block. I am not a hypocrite and would also believe in Congressional investigations even if it were a Republican who "screwed the pooch"! Please don't even try to say that you would do anything different if it were any Republican in this situation!
Never Stop asking Questions, I think that you should start listening to the answers to your questions. You are a typical liberal hack who believes that your "ideals" are the only that matter! I am sure that you live in a liberal enclave, in a liberal county, in a liberal state and have never had the opportunity to experience "Tea Party-land" where people work and try to build a future without the constant intrusion into their lives of an ever more liberal ruling elite! If you haven't been to our world please stop the insulting words and nasty tone! (By the way, I have lived in a liberal city, in a liberal county, in a liberal state, and.... NEVER AGAIN!
Talk to people about voter suppression laws, more restrictions against women's reproductive rights that even go so far as crimminalizing doctors and forcing them to perform ultrasounds and lie to their patients who seek what is supposed to be their RIGHT to an abortion in this country? Where a woman using birth control is now a condtion on whether she can keep her job or get HIRED for on in AZ, the all out war on the labour unions-( the ones that are left that is) to further strip people's rights in the workplace, trying to repeal HCR 33 times and Wall St reform that is supposed to protect consumers from what happened to them in 2008, trying to pass laws like the Blunt Amendment which would give EMPLOYERS the right to decide what a person's health benefits s/b based oh his/her PERSONAL beliefs, and still restrict and fight against legislation that gives LGBT people what s/b their equal rights under our Constitution to marry since the Law of the Land sure does have say they can't get married and get back to me on that "intrusion into people's lives" business your tea party is not supposed to be doing but are doing constantly.
The only "small government" they want is for corporations and fertilized eggs since these are "persons" according to THEM. The rest of us? Not so much.
why anyone would care about it except for people who bend on getting it regardless the time and cost. What an expensive fishing expedition
Just release the documents then, fishing expedition over. Cost minimal. Instead use executive privilege to get away with crimes.
Bingo, Ted! If Obama and Holder would just release the documents this would be over, quick! I know, the liberals will be demanding Mitt's tax returns.... I say that would be just fine, as soon as Obama releases his college transcripts and Master's Thesis! I really don't think that Obama would like to do this too much! BTW, it was amazing how Hillary Clinton's information was leaked, and how George Bush couldn't keep his transcripts sealed. I guess Obama has something else to hide, huh!
Obama's college records and thesis are none of anyone's business and NO OTHER President has ever been demanded they produce these things along with their birth certificates which the man HAS produced-(SEVERAL TIMES but still you're all whining that is MUST be forged),while tax returns ARE a very necessary item if public interest for the highest office in the land. Since Romney is the richest man running for the office, has overseas accounts he refuses to disclose the facts on, wants complete deregulation of Wall St, the banks and of course mega rich corporations while vowing to lower their tax rates even MORE, YES this is a crucial, very important issue.
The fact that he makes the statement: "My showing them would only be more for the Democrats to go through to use against me" and his wife says to a reporter: That's all YOU people are going to get" when all we've seen is the 2010 returns and then we have to take his word for the rest? Sorry but that's an obvious tax evader who wants to do everything to protect the interests of OTHER filthy rich tax evaders and how they've gamed our system to screw America all these years. Obama's college records have nothing to do with our economy so "get off it already".
So much for TRANSPARENCY, Obozo!!
Obviously, there are limits. Or should the White House empty the files drawers onto the lawn?
That's funny Ayoung.
Another fine bending of context by Laker Steve, eh?
Romney is the most inexperienced, least transparent Presidential candidate ever.
Eric, get off of your knees. You have proved your point.
Hey Red Sox
Let's use your logic
Guns don't kill people, People kill people.
Right, Huh?
So you have no problem with the Obama Administration knowingly supplying the "People" that will murder with the weapons to murder?
You cannot be this stupid ....
Boob . . . I mean Bob:
And you probably had no problem with senior Reagan administration officials secretly facilitating the illegal sale of arms to Iran and using the money to fund contras in Nicaragua or Bush the First's Secretary of Defense Darth Cheney supplying chemical weapons to Iraq because you are a military genius.
I have problems with both. Remember the Iran contra thing, hum.. Sounds like the same type of investigation has to go on here. It is simple, no one is asking holder to dump file cabinets on the front lawn of the white house. just give them to congress as congress has ordered. Simple. just do it. It is inevitable that they will have to anyway. They just don't want the facts out before the election because in there I can guarantee obama said something about how this was going to be the way to get gun bans passed. He doesn't want that floating around before an election.
BTW, Ted-803281, Iran-Contra was later seen as a bogus, made-up scandal. Just another way for democrats to lie, cheat, and steal to get power! The reason that there never were any important documents found is that the entire premise of the scandal DID NOT EXIST! It was the fantasy of a liberal reporter!
Dan
That is ridiculous. Who told you that, Hannity?
I hope we are seeing the dying gasp of the GOP and their bigoted wing the tea baggers. I totally hate them all.
to Kathryn- didn't you read yesteday's news ?? With Ted Cruz and others, The Tea Party and the Conservatives are going to have an even bigger voice in the Senate. Our goal is to take back America and prevent it from deteriorating into a European-style Socialist pig sty.
Sorry, Honey ! We The People - the Tea Party - are just getting started !!!
Meanwhile, lynch Holder !!
Anyone else see the irony, or hypocrisy, in Kathryn's statement,"...their bigoted wing...I totally hate them all."
As per Merriam-Webster,"Bigot - a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance".
And Good Ol' Dogs request for a "lynching"......
hmmm, seems to meez yous fine der upstandin' folk have yerselvz a good darn der group of peepo, naw donchaz. Yeeessssiree. Mighty fine der.
Kathy, you may want to lie down there hon, you are obviously suffering from delusions. THe TEA Party is just starting to build a good head of steam. The Old Guard in the GOP is on it's way out only to be replaced by TEA drinkers that will not be fooling around. You thought you were getting "change " with Oba Bam, well you ain't seen nothing yet baby!
to Patiodaddy - exactly right !!!
to Tea Party Downgrade - get medical help now !! all dos' drugs 'n stuff is fryin' yo brain, boy !!
Patiodaddy
Kathy, you may want to lie down there hon, you are obviously suffering from delusions. THe TEA Party is just starting to build a good head of steam.
That steam is exiting from their collective ass.
The Tea Party is the most backward group of people ever. They won't be happy until everyone is driving a horse and buggy; carrying a musket; womenfolk barefoot and pregnant; and those pesky black folk knowing their place. What a disgusting group of hate filled, ignorant, throwbacks!
The GOP is stooping to a new low - even for them!
Obama/Biden 2012
Kathy: Might want to turn on your television, the tea party is becoming much stronger.
I suppose you think what Holder did was right. He is nothing more than a scumbag and his boss is even a bigger one. Both these liars should be in jail.
Then to make matters work this idiot refused to charge the Black Panthers with obstruction of voting rights.
Both Obama and Holder are the biggest bigots in America.
Oh, I don't know about Obama and Holder being the biggest bigots in America.
I don't think either one of them are anywhere near being in the same class as Louis Farrakahn.
Patiodaddy - yea, OK Daddy...we'll be waiting for you to come get you some!
Nice touch Good Ol' - Ya gotta live Dog-whistle Politics
"Midnight, June 21, 1964"
'lynch Holder"
And the tea party will say they are not racist.
Backhouse
"Bush's Fault" - Good Grief, if for nothing else it will be good to see this administration go out the door to stop that blame-game nonsense.
What a bunch of lies. The tea party only wants cuts and no new taxes. That's it but people seem to fill it with a bunch of crap that isn't there. There are plenty of minorities that are part of the tea party. Intellectual honesty, something the zealot liberals don't have. The normal democrats are complaining about this fiasco as much as any tea partier. People fail to realize that at one point the NRA was a majority of dems. Yes. Believe it or not most male democrats support firearms ownership. Heaven forbid! People are so confused about what makes up their party that they speak out of their rear ends all day long. The vast majority of americans support the second. Almost every unbiased poll hits around 70-80% for the individual right to own firearms. Get over it and release the papers to congress. Stop wasting time and tax payer money trying to cover this crap up.
fast and furious was not started under bush. It wasn't the same program nor the same methods. Bushes program actually tracked ON RECOVERED the firearms and got results. Obama's program let them walk completely away. What was the point of doing that? Oh, it was to lie about how many american made guns are used in mexico. Like that should matter at all to us.
Ive never seen anything bad from the tea party.They want to keep spending in check and pay attention to the constitution. They talk about the debt.The only nasty bigoted stuff seems to come from the democrats.
And im a Ron paul supporter,i dont like the republicans,i like conservatives.
ron
You haven't been watching, I guess.
It's too bad they didn't put this much effort into working with the entire Congress to find solutions for America's problems. Bipartisanship is a dirty word for our politicians but we, the people continue to put them back in office. We get what we deserve.
or the "Torture" case:
http://crooksandliars.com/john-amato/attorney-general-eric-holder-may-probe
AG Eric Holder was looking into this. Are they trying to shut him up?
LOL.. I think corruption is a major american problem
"Bipartisanship is a dirty word for our politicians but we, the people continue to put them back in office. We get what we deserve."
So true, it's because the power of money to influence the masses will always trump the few voters that are enlightened enough to seek candidates that represent the interests of the American people as a whole.
The only way to achieve good government is to have politicians that don't accept political donations. That is unlikely unless a third political party can somehow be formed without the corrupting influence of big money.
Until then, you must choose between candidates that represent socialism or plutocracy.
Romney is on TV right now........what an idiot.
Medical records
Romney should show his medical records.
He seems to have short term memory loss.
The only effort coming out of the GOP is to stop Obama. It's their platform, their goal, their future, their plan, their last thought from their last brain cell.
Sad, all the wasted effort and time.
As a lifetime registered independent voter I can clearly state that your comments are EXACTLY why I am voting for mostly republicans this time around.
Anyone that condones high power assault rifles being given out to entrap criminals is a one sick individual.
Then you try to deflect from the real topic of gun running and crime with irrelevant discourse about people's political views.
One thing Obama as president has done... clearly shown that socialism and entitlements bring out the meanest liberals alive.
you are just pissed off that OTHER PEOPLES MONEY has dried up and your gravy train is over...
guess what...it is time to go back to work.
A Fortune investigation reveals that the ATF never intentionally allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. How the world came to believe just the opposite is a tale of rivalry, murder, and political bloodlust. Sorry GOP should be spending the time off woeking on JOBS. Priorities Its about Jobs Stupid GOP!!!!! The AG has done nothing wrong what he is doing right is protecting our rights. The GOP must stop him in order to get the agenda to stop the vote from people they have targeted as a threat to power they want to own us all.
shosyn - your post shows your total ignorance and proves you are no Independent but a hardline Tea Partier.
When you spout the stupid "socialism" word you've made your entire post nothing but a sick joke - kinda like you!
Obama/Biden 2012
Funny, I'm an independent voter myself. The fact you lump me into some pool of political ideology is so very elite of you. And no, the topic (of this post) is Romney being an idiot. The topic (of this article) is gun running and the partied involved.
Thanks for the rant about socialism too. Hadn't heard that one in a while.
I'll be voting Democrat this year. It is a direct vote against Romney too. Here's why:
1> Mitt doesn't care about 99% of the people he panders to. He wants their vote, not their attention. That one is simple.
2> Mitt has no real motive to create jobs. In fact, right now it is in his best interest to have Americans losing jobs. The GOP has made this abundantly clear.
3> Mitt's first order of business upon entering the White House would NOT be putting Americans back to work, BUT in fact would consist of slash and burn politics and a Hit List a mile long. You think congress is gummed up now, just wait till you see the filthy pile of constipation that would result from Flip Romney trying to eradicate every single safety net and/or public service that has ever been implemented in the last twenty years. Medicare, bye bye. EPA, see ya. And so on and so on.
4> Behind the curtain of warfare partisanship, Flip Romdogs would sneak in back room legislation for his gold collared buddies who financed him to the Presidency. Whether through deregulation or str8 up unethical tax credits, ol Flip-flopney would usher in a new era of tax manipulation.
5> Meanwhile, the debt would still go up.
6> Twit would then find himself in a game of chicken regarding foreign affairs. Probably relight the match in the West Bank and bomb random targets just to say he's continuing the war on terror. He is without direction and know how regarding foreign affairs. Probably just use the same old regurgitated play book from Cheney's old desk.
You will see a nation divided like we have never seen before. Flopney's war on America would absolutely destruct any semblance of national pride that still remains.
Anyone still spouting this crap is willfully ignorant. The gun running scandal, according to Fortune, is the doing of one digruntled ATF agent who ok'd the delivery of three weapons to a known strawman buyer and then went on vacation. He did this despite being told by the agent in charge of the AZ office no to do so repeatedly.
If you are so concerned about weapons walking out of gun stores in AZ and across the border, maybe what you should be advocatig for is stricter gun laws in a state where anyone can buy as many high-powered rifles as he wants as often as he wants.
It seems that CBS has a different outlook on Fast and Furious than Katherine Eban.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57338546-10391695/documents-atf-used-fast-and-furious-to-make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/
What is "Fast and Furious"?
"Fast and Furious" is the name ATF assigned to a group of Phoenix, Arizona-area gun trafficking cases under Project Gunrunner that began in fall of 2009. It's the largest of several known operations in which ATF employed gunwalking, involving more than 2,000 weapons, including hundreds of AK-47 type semi-automatic rifles and .50 caliber rifles. According to sources who worked directly on the case, the vast majority of guns were not tracked and Mexico's government was not fully informed of the case. The ATF Special Agent in Charge of the operation was Bill Newell.
Complete coverage of the "Fast and Furious" scandal from CBS News
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-57461204-10391695/a-primer-on-the-fast-and-furious-scandal/
Tea Party downgrade, you are too obvious to be an independent. Look at your name, Tea Party downgrade, and then there is your insulting rant and lies about the GOP
and then your big big lie. "Funny, I'm an independent voter myself"
Democrats have always been the Party of liars, bigots, racists, haters, and looks like you are carring on the tradition very well.
Voting for Obama to be President of the American People is like voting for Ahmadinejab to be Prime Minister of Israel.
Right wing screw ball - That handle must have been given to you by your own party. Show us an article that provides evidence of wrong doing on the part of Holder or the President. Come on billybadass, show it! Can't can you? And why is that...Even Isaa himself states he has no evidence of wrong doing. You Neo-Conservative clowns are getting all pumped up on innuendo and FOX feces and your ready to go out an lynch (in GoodOl' s terminology) a public servant because he wont turn over documents a Federal Grand Jury Sealed. And you freaks want to run this country? Holy sh!t
Why not JUST sue the fool and stop the damn PLANNING ?
Another stupid 'plan by Boehner' ?
2000 guns walk but hey it wasn't our intention we're just incompetent. One article talks about one agent letting 3 go. No one is having a cow over 3 guns. We're having a cow over 2,000
Katherine, you are one to talk! You vomit out the liberal line without listening. Please just stay in your liberal "fantasyland" and leave the rest of us to our own lives without demanding more taxes and regulations on our businesses!
And Dan
What would your business be like without the police? Private armies are expensive.
How about roads? Lotsa money there!
Oh, why bother, you actually know all this and say what you say anyway. I don;t know what that's called.
This started well before W left office and of course they want to pursue things that are related to active cases under investigation and if leaked out, all the work required will be lost. Repubs will do anything and everything towards the Obama administration that they think they can get away with. W had almost 10k of our service people killed in two uncalled for wars and along with Cheney, Rumsfield and Rice should be tried for war crimes yet all this because they are doing their best to out Obama in November.
These were two, very different operations ! Wide Reciever was intended to track weapons, like Fast and Furious, that's about all they had in common !
The weapons in WR, were never intended to and never did, cross any International Boundries ! They are all accounted for and no one was hurt by them! After only a couple of hundred weapons were sold, the plan was determined to be uncontrollable and canceled!
The weapons of FF, were intended to , illegally and without the knowledge or permission of the other Nation, cross the boundries, hundreds are STILL unaccounted for and at least one American and untold hundreds of Mexicans were killed and injured by these weapons! Holder was well aware of the results of Wide Reciever and went ahead with his plan anyway!
Not the same at all! !
Ducess - I actually hope if they do have to release records that it comes back to bite georgie & dickie in the rear, now wouldn't that be quite a hoot!
Some here seem to think it was ok for georgie boy to invoke the executive privilidge but not others, sorry folks, this is not Saudi arabia or Egypt - it is the USA where all are to be treated equally under the law and all are innocent until proven guilty.
ted crawford
The F&F team monitored the wholesale purchases of assault rifles by straw buyers but could not interdict because it is not illegal to stockpile assault weapons. The local Federal Attorney's office would not authorize warrants without clear evidence the purchases were intended for export. When one of the weapons they had recorded returned and was involved in a Federal Agent murder, the NRA became interested. They sensed an opening to embarrass Holder and took their version of events to Issa. He was able to parley a monitoring operation into a smoking AR-47 in Holders hands with Obama doing the re-loading.
LoyalTexan...and AR-47? Is that something new? Just like most everything else in your post...it's incorrect! You should spend a little time learning what you're talking about before you begin to speak (or write) on the subject. I can't believe how many people in this country are OK with having their Constitutional rights hijacked! Or maybe you drank the Kool-aid and actually believe that Osama...Oops - I mean Obama is so brilliant that he just HAS to be smarter than the founding fathers! Like sheep to the slaughter! I am REALLY afraid for the future of this country. OK - now the community can collapse my comment - I'm in the wrong neighborhood anyway!
LOYALTEXAN - typical Texan - all puff and no facts. Your Bush is the one behind all of this but you stupid Texans will defend him no matter what.
Obama/Biden 2012
Loyal;
Nice try Comrade, but the same laws were in effect during Wide Reciever and as I stated none of them were lost or used to injure or kill anyone! This childish, irresponsible attempt to , once again blame Bush is silly !
If FOX News tells re-Tea-tards the sky is RED, they will look up into the heavens and call you a sinner for actually proclaiming the sky is BLUE and always will be blue.
As evidence comes out that there was never ever a gun-running program by Bush or Obama. It was all about Arizona open laws of allowing 18 year olds to be paid as stools to buy as many weapons as possible, and the fact that Arizona's 2nd & 10th Amendments prevented Arizona's law enforcement from not doing anything about it. ATF only choice was to monitor the situation and hope to try and bring a federal case about it. ATF under both Bush and Obama was never proactive in this.
In fact Jan Brewer ought to be held more accountable for the agents death than any other.
Sorry to inform you gridlock,but Straw Purchases are ILLEGAL IN ALL 50 States. It is FEDERAL LAW. Has been since the passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968. There goes that argument.
Why not JUST sue the fool and stop the damn PLANNING ?
Another stupid 'plan by Boehner' ?
Bush had ZERO to do with this. His operation worked and was done well before he left office. F&F is all under obama and evidence now points to OBAMA'S direct awareness and even giving some orders. This is why obama is hiding. Regardless, if he's got nothing to hide, say we're all wrong, why not just release the documents? Why so scared little boy?
Grid, “In fact Jan Brewer ought to be held more accountable for the agents death than any other.” Really? It was Federal prosecutors that were dragging their feet.
“Operation Fast and Furious was not a local effort. It was the Justice Department’s flagship arms trafficking investigation for a year and a half. Justice Department headquarters in Washington approved it as part of the Department’s Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF) program that put it under the control of the Arizona U.S. Attorney’s office. The OCDETF designation also meant Fast and Furious would be able to use advanced investigative techniques, such as wiretaps, which by law required senior headquarters officials to review operational details.”
http://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Update-on-Fast-and-Furious-with-attachment-FINAL.pdf
Seeking Ken My bad. Thanks for calling me out on my AR 17 vs. AK 47 mistake.
Lets try to get past name calling and let you tell me which part of what I posted was incorrect. In fact, an article in the 7/31 NYT (you get that don't you) critical of the Administration confirmed that the ATF was restricted by law and Federal Attorneys to monitor the straw purchases of the assault weapons.
The GOP inference that the ATF was running a tag and release program is false.
Romney acts like he is the freakin pope....
So does Obama!
Romney's just a Mormon Bishop. No pope, for the Mormons.
President Obama--the first "Muslim" Pope?????
Nawwwwwwwwwwww!!!
No Romulus--Obama MMXII
Rmoney is a Bishop? What about the separation of church and State?
Why not JUST sue the fool and stop the damn PLANNING ?
Another stupid 'plan by Boehner' ?
How come the Republicans think voters are so dumb to believe their BS.
Perhaps it's because some of us are aware of the facts. We've read the Progressive training manuals, Reville for Radicals, Rules for Radicles, Cloward-Pivin" The Nation ", Karl Marx, Friedric Engles, Hobbs, More, ETC.
We are well aware of the plan, the intent ,and the methods to be employed and also the countermeasures necessary to stop it !
40 years of pandering to fear and stupidity with more success to show for it than failure. That's how come.
ted
Saul Alinsky who wrote Rules for Radicals in 1971 died in 1972 at the age of 63. He was undoubtedly an activist and community organizer. Our modern society was partly shaped by him. He was involved in organizing unions in reaction to the abysmal plight of the depression era factory workers.
He was a progressive activist (community organizer) dedicated to changing the balance of power between the privileged and the urban poor.
The conservatives of course hated and reviled him, as they do to this day, because he represented cultural and economic change. Conservatives by definition are opposed to cultural and economic change.
Your anxiety over inevitable social change over the coming years can be treated. Don't let it drown your soul in hate.
I'm well aware of who and what Alinsky was, I've read his books. In Rules, I believe it's Chapter two, in one paragraph he calls himself an "Optimist", in the very next Chapter he states that "the World is, necessarily always in a state of Revolution" ! He may be considered as the Father of Macroeconomics, but he was also clearly a confused little Socilist! In any case Macroeconomics has failed everywhere it has ever been tried !
Crawford--with all your misspelled words, incorrect usage of punctuation marks, and very bad syntax, do you really expect us to believe that you actually read (and understood) all the books you mentioned?
Are you sure you don't mean "The Cat in the Hat", "Winnie-the-Pooh" and Weekly Reader?
tedcrawford Macroeconomics is not a theory one applies to a given economic situation nor is a political theory. It is the empirical study of how overall economies work. It's origin is generally attributed to Adam Smith who published his collected essays in 1776.
I encourage you to keep reading and if you are interested in economics, I recommend you to "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith. You may also find Schumpeter's Capitalism, Socialism and Democracy (1942), interesting reading since it probes the dynamic tension between capitalism and socialism.
Also go to Mises Institute's website...so you can see through the Keynesian nonsense in economics. Free books, videos, audio files, and forums. Not one Keynesian correctly, in shocking detail, predicted the collapse of the economy...but Austrian economists over at Mises did FOR YEARS. The detail they gave leading up to it, how it would happen, etc. makes it hard to say it was coincidence from years of yelling the end was near, and the finally being right...it was clearly due to superior analytics.
And very little in economics is empirical. It's a soft science. When you start studying economics you'll find that out.
Throw him under the bus, or just make sure that you back over him several times.
Love your "kill the messenger" attitude. Now if the R's could just get up off their dead asses and pass just one jobs bill, maybe we could all move on to something important and people like you would stop complaining about the small stuff.
Let me see if I got this right: Holder was found to be in contempt, right? Why file a lawsuit against him about him lying to congress if action was already taken against Holder when he refused to produce documents?
This is an election year, that may be the reason.......
Because Obama gave him executive privilege.
The lawsuit is intended to force the release of the questioned documents, currently protected by Obamas Executive Privilege!
Reading comprehension problem? As the article clearly states, the Justice Department will not pursue the criminal case, therefore, just like the Dems had to do to get Nixon to release Watergate related tapes, the Republicans have to sue in civil court so they can get a judge to order the release.
If a judge orders the release and he does not comply, he can then be put into jail until he does release them.
Let's see. The fast and furious program was a high security operation conceived in part by the Bush Administration to secretly funnel guns to the bad guys in Mexico so that the guns could be traced. The Obama Administration offered to provide the documents sought to the Committee Chair and certain other high level Republicans if they agreed not to disclose to the press. But NO, that did not suit Issa or the other highly partisan people involved in the hearings. Holder also offered to negotiate further about which documents should be disclosed to the press. Do you think maybe the fact that many more of the guns (unaccounted for) might still be in use or other sensitive aspects of the operation might justify some secrecy? Cause you know the GOP is so concerned about leaks surrounding the way Obama has devastated Al Qaeda. You remember how mad the GOP is about certain Obama administration members taking victory laps about the huge butt kicking they gave Osama and his top deputies? Even the tiniest breach of security or potential breach of security has had them in a tizzy about that. Oh, by the way, do you remember Al Qaeda Mr. Romney? It seems that the name now escapes your foreign policy lectures. You know the talks where you state that Obama has let us down on national security.
for VTBobb:
First a judge has to decide there is merit and then accept the case, which has not happened.
If it goes forward, and the last administration was found to have started this operation, which seems to be very likely, then the current president's publicized decision to not investigate Bush and Cheney will be mute and a legal channel will then be open for the judicial system to put Bush and Cheney in jail.
bat...What?
I think the Supreme Court is the only one that can decide if they are going to accept a case or not. Lower court judges are assigned cases. Now, once briefs are filed, I think (not sure, not a lawyer) they can then summarily dismiss for lack of merit if one side files such a motion.
The lawsuit is about withholding documents. Even IF this is a continuation of the Bush era wide receiver (which from what I read it is not), that is immaterial to the disclosure of the subpoenaed documents.
Are you saying Bush and Cheney will be jailed because Holder will not release subpeoned documents from the Whitehouse? Maybe it's time for a nap...Oh I get it, you're just playing the old misdirection...It's not Obama's fault, it's Bush's fault. He is definitely the president of the United States of Soemeonelses-fault.
Why not JUST sue the fool and stop the damn PLANNING ?
Another stupid 'plan by Boehner' ?
That gun runner needs to be brought to justice. Even OBummer won't be able to protect him with his "executive protection" cr@p.
Holder must go!
"I did not have sex with that woman!" WJC
Bye bye OBummer 2012!
Jello heads!
lmao uh the jello head is you, idiot...you have bought the GOP bait hook, line, and sinker. Ask yourself this: why did Issa NOT call all the witnesses he could have and instead a select few, nor put those that did testify under oath? Further, you are a complete moron for believing a man who flat out promised to pull shenanigans to make Obama look bad...and has no investigative experience yet acts like he is Sherlock Holmes....lol more like the blind leading the blind
Bush started the fast and Furious...and sueing Holder is simply another Republican ploy to make the Dem's look bad, this in an effort to defray attention away from the blubbering idiot the GOP has put there money on...Do you really want an idiot in the white house...Obama has done more for the American people in spite of the hurddles the GOP has erected. He bailed out the top 2% and they stabbed him in the back, I for one do not want a rich idiot as POTUS (thats President Of The United States) you toothless @!$%#
Umm, they voted for the village idiot in 2000 and 2004. That is exactly what they want. someone just like them.
Gary,
On Tuesday, November 8, 2011 at 12:42PM under oath before the Senate Judiciary Committee at the Dirksen Office Building in response to a question from Sen. John Cornyn, R-Texas Eric Holder made the following statement:"The Bush Administration is the one that started Wide Receiver the Obama Administration is where Fast and Furious began."
Start @ 2:37 and listen through 2:40 on the below C-Span link below.http://www.c-span.org/Events/Lawmakers-Question-Holder-on-Operation-Fast-and-Furious/10737425323/
Now tell us again how Bush started F&F
Farmers and Ranchers will suffer during the break, but at least they are taking care of the most important @!$%#. Fire this @!$%#ing congress, no more teapartiers.
It's the "Tea Partiers" that are trying to fix the problem, it's your guy, Harry Reid that is tableing all Legislation coming out of the house, without even allowing any discussion to be had !
Tea Party has fixed nothing, absolutly nothing. NOTHING.
Yeah, Right, ted. Michelle Bachmann's agenda is SOOOOOO into fixing things! Your little Tea Party has totally fractured the GOP into smithereens. But you run down that road with your little tummy full of Chick-Fil-A .... the President will be re-elected and this country is going to work on voting all of your sorry little T-butts out!
The issue is jobs. The republican/tea bag party in the has spent more time on women's issues than jobs. Why is that?
deleted
In the first place Layton I'm not a Tea Party member! They are too far to the Right for my tastes. That doesn't discount the fact that they are at least voting on and passing legislation they believe will help the problem1
Ask yourself this, why hasn't Harry Reid passed a budget, a Constitutional mandate by the way, in FOUR years? Why hasn't he passed a single Approprations Bill( The House has passed 7), in the same time frame? This has caused the necessity to work with, temporary, Continuing Resolutions, to fund the Government!
If he were truly intent on solving any problems, he would have at least attended to his Constitutional Mandates under Article 1 Section 8 !
Probably little more than a waste of time, but not any more so than submitting a jobs bill, an appropiations bill, or budget proposal to the Senate !
What about an investigation of Issa? How does a suspected car thief whose brother is in jail on grand theft auot charges get inot this position of power? How is it that his business (car alarms, how ironic) burned to the ground and he collected the insurance money but his prototypes were removed from the building the night before? Car theft, insurance fraud, perjury, this guy is a real good symbol of what the GOP has become and his risen to a position of power.
I almost forgot to mention his felony conviction of firearms possesion. Sure, we should let convicted criminals investigate the DOJ. This is the kind of craziness that is the GOP. Let the fox gaurd the henhouse.
How does a nobody from Chicago with no solid proof of citizenship become President of the United States? LOL
Good Lord DW!!! Again with the birther crap? Reguritated garbage that is so stale it must be an acquired taste in your mouth! Do you have anything to contribute or do you just focus on bashing the President?
The Presidents birth certificate and Issa's criminal history are both matters of public record.
Why is it that Issa refused to comply with a subpoena in the Roger Clemens case? And it wasn't the only time he ignored subpoenas. What makes him so special that he doesn't have to follow his own rules?
DW Please get off the birther crap and deal with the facts of this case!
The ‘Birther’ movie is over, the credits are playing, house lights are coming on, the audience is leaving, time to move on...as Porky Pig would say, "Ble, ble, ble, that's all folks."
Your "convicted felon" accusation is either a complete lie or at best intentional complete distortion of the truth. He was convicted of some misdemeanors which is a world of difference then a felony conviction.
You lie to cover up government corruption because you are still defending your favorite party when both parties are irredeemably corrupted. And for the rest I agree, it's time we all drop birther stuff that the Hillary Clinton campaign started.
bert
Do you think it might be time to start demanding that your Representative in Congress work on job creation for the middle class? That is most important and would benefit the country most. This witch hunt is a deflection from the right not having any jobs plan and trying to get at Obama. Issa's district has high unemployment and I have not seen any jobs plans coming from Isssa. He has a responsibility to his district to work for their good, not just misuse his power to get at Obama for political gain.
@Jennifer
I agree in almost every respect, however when executive privilege was evoked this turned from a witch hunt against Holder into the white house implicating itself with direct involvement. Should Alexander Butterfield have stopped when Nixon invoked it and let apparent corruption go unquestioned and spend all his time instead to have better served the middle class?
I have no problem with all politicians constantly being under investigation, Issa included, of all the money we waste in government, the porpotionaly small amount we spend investigating and exposing corruption on all sides is worth it. Do we need to turn everything into a media freak show? of corse not, but people love to cast stones and the media loves to make money off of it so i don't know how to avoid that. I think Romney should release his tax records and i think Obama should release his college records, if you're in or running for public office, you willingly forfiet your right to a secretive past in my opinion(with the exception of family members).
Just remember how much Bush got away with in the telecom scandel, I wish we would have spent a lot more money on that investigation then we did, that joker spied on most of the American people for the better part of a decade and got away with it, how many of you were calling for government transpancy then? I know i was, i cant even tell you how angry i was when telecom was granted immunity
bert
I have no problem going after real criminal activity. This issue is the result of a bad idea, no matter where it was conceived, ending badly and an ATF agent died. That does not make it criminal.
How many times have bad ideas caused deaths to our troops, police departments attempts to stop criminality and losing officers and so on?
Issa and the Congress should go after real criminal activity like the banks being in cahoots with off shore banks in the LIBOR Index scandal or oil companies using illegal and dangerous procedures that polluted the gulf and destroys our environment and so on. This is a witch hunt wasting time and tax payer money for political gain. How about we the people demand that we have better representation in Congress? What are those bastards doing up there anyway?
I personally would like to find out why so many guns are sold to drug dealers legally myself. Why is Congress not looking into that?
Is it just possible that oil companies, banks, the NRA and gun manufactures own our Congress? This BS that Issa and his toadies are wasting our tax dollars on is just politics at or expense.
The one thing everyone seems to miss is that for anything to happen across international borders it must be approved by someone at the top. The Bush gun running was stopped before Obama, this one is all his and Holder's.
I get 'gun-runner' as a jibe at Holder, but calling him a 'racist' is really off-base. Issa you goin' to court? Really nothing more than posturing in the election year.
Why not JUST sue the fool and stop the damn PLANNING ?
Another stupid 'plan by Boehner' ?
Issa.....now there's a fellow that needs to be investigated.
Imagine that a sting operation trying to find how the NRA was funneling guns to the drug cartels in Mexico goes wrong and the NRA says it's all a conspiracy to take your guns away...
Your a complete moron! The NRA was not funneling guns to the drug cartels, the NRA doesn't even sell guns!
All from Wikipedia so you can educate yourself! I suggest you quit listening to the Brady group and other Anti-gun groups.
The NRA does the following:
The National Rifle Association of America (NRA) is an American non-profit 501(c)(4) lobbying group[1][2] that advocates for the protection of the Second Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights, and the promotion of firearm ownership rights as well as marksmanship, firearm safety, and the protection of hunting and self-defense in the United States.
The NRA sponsors firearm safety training courses, as well as marksmanship events featuring shooting skill and sports.
NRA firearms safety programs
The NRA sponsors a range of safety programs to educate and encourage the safe use of firearms.
NRA hunting safety courses are offered all across the U.S. for both children and adults. In recent years gun safety classes oriented more towards firearm safety, particularly for women, have become popular. Intended for school-age children, the NRA's "Eddie Eagle" program encourages the viewer to "Stop! Don't touch! Leave the area! Tell an adult!" if the child ever sees a firearm lying around. The NRA has claimed that studies prove the "Eddie Eagle" program reduces the likelihood of firearms accidents in the home, and the program is used in many elementary schools nationwide.
Shooting sports
However, the National Rifle and Pistol Matches at Camp Perry are sponsored by the NRA, which most consider the "World Series of competitive shooting".[12] Commonly known as Bullseye or Conventional Pistol, shooters from the military as well as many top-ranked civilians gather annually in July and August for this well-attended competition. The NRA also sponsors its National Muzzle Loading Championship at the National Muzzle Loading Rifle Association's Friendship, Indiana facility.
NRA volunteers
Many NRA competitions would not be possible without the help of volunteers. The NRA hosts more than 500 volunteers during the NRA National Rifle & Pistol Championships in Camp Perry, Ohio.
Grassroots fund-raising and shooting support
Friends of NRA is a grassroots fund-raising program that fosters community involvement, raises money, and gives 100 percent of the net proceeds to qualified local, state, and national programs. Working with the NRA’s field staff, thousands of volunteers nationwide participate in the program by organizing committees and planning events in their communities. Monies raised at these events go to The NRA Foundation, a 501(c)(3) charitable organization.[13]
Instructors
The National Rifle Association will issue recognition credentials to individuals who are trained by the Association to be instructors. Divisions of instructor are divided into what are referred to as "disciplines". Each discipline earned is indicative that the person is qualified to teach in relation to that area. Instruction in a particular field includes marksmanship, maintenance, and legalities. Instructors are required to teach at least 1 person per year in each discipline in order to keep their certification in that discipline current.
Instructors not only teach firearms usage, care, and cleaning, but can coach students and other persons and help them develop Marksmanship skills.
Relations with other organizations
The National Rifle Association maintains ties with other organizations such as the Boy Scouts of America, and 4-H. NRA relations with these groups include monetary donations, equipment donations to supply firearms ranges, and provision of instructors to assist in their programs. Notably, the Boy Scouts of America has strict guidelines on who is allowed to operate their ranges, the recognized personnel groups including NRA Certified Instructors along with military and law enforcement.
Second Amendment
In its lobbying for gun rights, the NRA asserts the Second Amendment guarantees the right of individuals to bear arms. The NRA opposes measures which it believes conflict with the Second Amendment and/or the right to privacy enjoyed by gun owning citizens. Additionally, the NRA has litigated against legislation such as the Brady Bill on the grounds that it conflicted with the Tenth Amendment, not the Second Amendment. Because the NRA considers gun ownership to be a civil right, the organization calls itself the "oldest civil rights organization in the United States", as it was founded in 1871.[
To..DW""""
And what ..the NRA is behind everything and anything to do with guns ..
5th piece down
House Key Vote Descriptions - Dec. 19, 1996
Anti-Terrorism Bill
The House vote in favor of amending a terrorism bill effectively stripped the measure of what its supporters saw as its most potent law enforcement tools, such as expanding federal surveillance capabilities and easing restrictions on deporting non-citizens suspected of terrorism.
President Clinton had requested the bill
Barr won, however, by appealing to a majority of Republicans and Democrats who were worried about entrusting the government with more power.
The vote on the Barr amendment showed how the freshman Republicans, when they Decided to exercise their power, could throw a monkey wrench into the plans of even the most senior GOP leaders. Overall, the freshman class voted 72 to 14 in favor of the amendment, with Republicans making up the bulk of the majority with 68 votes.
Barr's amendment removed such provisions as allowing the administration to designate certain foreign groups as terrorist and then deny their members entry visas and bar them from fundraising in the United States; allowing authorities to use illegally obtained wiretap evidence in terrorism cases; expediting the deportation of aliens linked to terrorism, and lowering the standard of proof to prosecute those who provide the guns used in violent crimes.
Behind the scenes, the amendment had backing from the National Rifle Association and other gun-rights groups upset about making it easier to prosecute people linked to gun crimes. Barr's amendment also appealed to them by exempting black and smokeless powder from a proposed government study of explosives and by altering a proposed study on armor-piercing bullet
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/9612/19/1keyvotes/house.desc.html
It's members, contributors and lobbyists do! And they manufacture and sell ammunition and accessories (ie., 100 round drum magazines for assault rifles). As to whether members of the NRC do or don't funnel guns to the drug cartels, we don't know yet do we? Unless you have some kind of proof positive that none of them do.
Who's the moron?
The NRA is culpable for Fast and Furious because they have effectively blocked any legislation that would enable law enforcement do their job, including being able to arrest known gun runners involved in Fast and Furious. The NRA has even obstructed doing background checks on the FBI terrorist list. The NRA has gone way over the cliff in paranoia, and the reasonable gun owners should cancel their membership and create a new sportsman organization that does the worthwhile programs of the NRA.
You missed an opportunity to help one of our republican friends out.
DW – Your is possessive. You’re is a contraction of You are. What you meant was “you’re a complete moron” When calling somebody a moron, it’s best not to demonstrate that you are a moron. If you are unable to remember this, you could just use ur as in "ur a moron"
re: "the NRA doesn't even sell guns!"
That's pretty funny really...the biggest lobbyist of all, creating space for even AK-47's in the marketplace, yet you think they don't sell guns??
While I'd like to agree it was the NRA, all I can say is the NRA is responsible for pushing the "Stand Your Ground" laws, while standing over the Republican Governor in Florida, while he put his signature on the bill, and lead to more than one un-necessary death in your state! The NRA is also a member of ALEC, who have passed these laws in 20 states already. Great for stalkers, not so much for the dead citizens!
The NRA is the front organization for the gun manufacturers. The NRA does preach gun safety practices and many of their causes are in regard to gun safety, but not all!
The opposition to laws restricting assault rifles and NRA opposition to the reduction of clip sizes below thirty is one reason to oppose the NRA! Assault rifles and handguns are not hunting weapons folks! They are designed for killing people. Hence, the reason why our country leads all others in deaths by bullets. Some claims I have heard NRA supporters use are that crime has gone down in states with carry laws. That could be said for states without gun carry laws, too. So there is no way that the impact of an armed citizenry actually affects crime.
But, in regard to the Republican Darryl Issa going after Eric Holder:
We all know Darryl Issa is not the straight up guy we all think he is. His own colleagues tell us he burned houses down by arson, and burglarized them. His clever idea of capitalizing on his own sins lead him to selling Security Systems, where he made his millions.
Darryl Issa is also a Republican, with the power to call hearings.
When Attorney General Eric Holder began to attack Republicans for rolling back the voters in Florida and Pennsylvania, where no cases of voter fraud were ever prosecuted, Republicans called on Issa to stop Eric.
Hence, the big push for Issa to smear Eric and try to drag in as many Democrats as possible into his witch hunts.
What stands out, as the big sore thumb for Issa, is the fact that the Fast and Furious programs were created by the Bush Administration for the ATF, and may have continued in Arizona without Eroic Holder's direct knowledge. These "sting" operations involved tracking gun sales to Mexico cartels.
What we do know, is that Eric Holder stopped the programs when a border patrol agent was shot by border crossers trying to get the weapons across the border.
Back to Issa! He has refused to call up any Republican to testify as to who actually started the program. He has refused to call up the Attorney General from the Bush administration, who was replaced by Eric Holder! But he has called Eric Holder back to testify nine times, and is still not satisfied!
Eric Holder is still trying to stop the Republican vote tampering in Florida (where Republicans removed 180,000 voters from the voting roles already to get Bush elected in 2000) and are purging voters, mostly Democrats, again!
After promising to provide information in a 10th hearing at the request of Darryl Issa, Eric Holder has decided he will not submit classified information about the people involved in the sting operation, nor will he provide tactical details. This is what Darryl Issa is freaking out about!
My suggestion! Darryl, you squirrel! If you really want to get the facts, why not call up the guy that was involved in starting the operations, not the guy who inherited them from Homeland Security? Why do you have to be so shallow in your search for the truth, that you are tripping over the biggest clue of all, the guy from your party who started the programs? Who instructed him to start the programs? Was it Cheney? or Bush?
Issa's refusal to call up one Republican shows just how political he is and why I am embarrassed he represents California. Perhaps, Darryl, you should tell us more about those arsons your colleagues attest you were involved in, because it looks like you are again trying to burn another house down for your profits and your fame!
Amen, Jack. Well said and direct.
Great, just great. There are 57 things the house should have done to help the country, and this is all they can do. For the republicans there is no gain unless it is political gain or financial gain for their rich buddies.
Yeah and those 57 things are buried under a crap pile on Reid's desk!
The House has passed 30+ jobs bills, 7 Appropiations bills and 4 budget proposals, along with several hundred other bills. They followed the Constitutional Mandate and fowarded them to the Senate for their consideration. Harry Reid has choosen to "Table " them rather than even allow them to come to the floor for discussion! The House, nor even the President, were he so inclined, has NO power to force Harry Reid to do the job he was appointed to do !
Durinf this same time frame Harry has passed NO Budget proposals( The only two he's even allowed to the floor were Obamas, and they recieved '0' votes FOR [in either House by the way[) he's also managed to pass '0' Appropiations bills! It seems clear here who is truly the obstructionist !
I suspect there is a limited number of people who would agree that bills to give the wealthy more tax cuts and limit women's access to birth control are worth Reid pulling them out for a vote.
There it is. Those were not jobs bills, but social engineering bills that have been rightly tossed in the trash.
And tax cuts for you elites.
ted, your way out of line............
GOP wasting more time and taxpayer money. Hey GOP....where are the jobs???? GOP has gone after everyting but jobs....women, minorities. gays, elderly, renamed post ofices...on an on...but not one valid job bill...NOT ONE!
I am not defending Repubs but there are several job bill held up by Harry Reid. If they are so bad he should at least let the Senate debate it to show how stupid the Repubs are. Dems are just as guilty, they have had majority control for 6 years and things are still a mess.
Bob: Please post a link to any of those "jobs" bills....they do not create jobs....they are more deregulations, etc....not valid jobs bills....note in my post I said "valid".
How come Repubs voted against the infrastructure bill, now that would actually create jobs and get our infrastructure up-to-date...but Repubs don't want that....at least under President Obama...heaven forbid the economy gets better, or unemployment declines faster...then what would Repubs have to run on?
Dragon;
HR-3630,- 1633, - 10,- 3010,- 527, - 3012,- 3094,- 2930, ETC.
If they were in fact as flawed as you and Harry claim, he would have RUN to the floor with them waving them wildly and demanding an immediate vote, to expose them as flawed bills! If, on the other hand they were in fact , affordable, sustainable movements in the right direction, he wouldn't DARE allow them to see the light of day, would he? !
ted: And just what are those bills....hmmmm? Not job bills...are they? Why should Reid waste time with bills that have no chance of passing.....unlike the House that waste time on everything but jobs...how many times did they vote to repeal ACA....33!!!
WOW. File a lawsuit for documents t hat are probably nothing added to what they already have. Congress, and it really doesn't matter who is in power in Congress right now, will go to any lengths to get out of doing anything constructive! It is no wonder they have the all time lowest approval rating! Heck, I think I will run for Congress. I am tired of working hard and trying to make it. At least if I was in Congress I could get the best health care program available, the best pension plan available, and best of all, I wouldn't have to work anywhere as hard as I am working now. BUT, on the other hand, I don't want my family to think that little of me!
Thank you, we need more people to focus on GOP what they are not doing for the people but more for their pledge to their GRAND IDOL grover norquest organization. Any human being who cares, and love their children, and FREEDOM need's to take another look at the republicans, and their puppet Mittttttttttttttttt ROMNEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.
This whole "scandal" is a joke! First, we know that guns flow from the US into Mexico on a daily basis despite the NRA denials and denials of the Far Right. This operation would never have been necessary without those denials. Second, the worthless TP arm of the House is trying to use the failure of a few agents as a political bludgeon and waging a baseless attack on the Attorney General AND the President. Third, Republicans have always said guns don't kill anyone yet in the case they do blame the gun for the death of the US agent. His death is surely a tragedy but was in a very dangerous line of work dealing with drug cartels. Yet we even see ridiculous accusations that Obama somehow caused this man's death (one in my local paper last week).
My congressman has spent every waking moment since he took office working on this yet the basic facts have not changed one bit. A horrific waste of the taxpayers time and money. It's a political witchhunt. Go ahead and vote GOP in the fall, then you will see no end to such garbage. That is one certainty we do know.
No one can compare Obama and Bush because Obama ran on a platform of change and transparency. I voted for that. He has broken that promise several times and has proven not to be the person he touted during the first campaign. Now I cannot believe what he says now.
tedcrawford - Thank you for posting those. I looked them up, did you?
XL-Pipeline, Renewal of Bush tax cuts to wealthy, a jobs bill importing foreign workers to take American jobs, more tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations, removing environmental protection regulations, removing regulations governing Wall Street.
I must not be seeing what you're seeing...where are the jobs?
Funny, I get calls everyday from people who identify themselves as life-long Democrats before going into a Teabagger tirade. You know what...they never were Democrats...and neither are you.
We need to face that most of Congress is full of Crooks and has been for decades. How do you think we got in such a financial mess? I would not hire any of these bums to run my car wash. Any one who thinks just one side caused all of this are just idiots.
Amen
Amen
Bob Things became a mess when the Democrats took control 6 years ago!! and the mess has only gotten bigger since Obama became president 3.5+ years ago
Question; Have you seen one Obama campaign ad from the Obama camp that actually talks about Obamas accomplishments? Lot's of vile negative attack ads, on mostly discredited DNC (talking point) accusations of Romney. Obama is trying to bury Fast & Furious until after the election. Like Nixon he may be forced to resign even if he wins but the US will still be stuck with the Dems and ugh!, President Biden? Biden is a good reason not ot vote for Obama all by himself. The DNC can't afford to have the facts of Fast & Furious come out before the election and will pressure Obama and Holder to stonewall at all costs! I would love to be a fly on the wall while Obamas puppet-masters tell him how to handle this scandal.
It's a good point Bob, but you must realize none of those people have the job skills needed to WORK in a car wash. Much less RUN one.
MT may have a partial point. but things have actually been going downhill a lot longer than that. About 30 years ago, a guy named Ronald Reagan had the upside down idea that giving more money to the rich and less to the majority would secure his name in history. It did. His 7 tax increases on his employers (the people of the U.S.) definately made a mark. Now, being a Repugnitan, You probably don't remember that. Just like you don't remember the early campaign ads from the Obama camp which did just the thing you asked about. Unfortunately, those ads have been set aside in favor of a more self defense strategy. If we outlaw all negative political ads, the right would have nothing to say.
Dean:
Does all of the money belong to the government first? How can you "give" something to someone that doesn't belong to the government in the first place?
The money that people make belongs to them, not the government. The role of the government is NOT to determine how much you should get to keep based on what some politician thinks you should be forced to give to the government.
I do not exist to serve the state. America is NOT the putrid Federal Government. I do not wake up wringing my hands and worrying whether the government is taking more of what someone else makes. You can NOT tax your way to prosperity, and you will never make a country great by thinking that you can take away from one person in order to give it to another person.
Stop looking to the damn Federal Government to give you a hand out. Go earn it yourself.
I agree completely. And I've worked my butt off for 40 years. The money I make should belong to me. But I'm in the lower middle class bracket, the one that gets to keep the least of what I EARN. All I want is a government that produces the most effective results with the money they take from me. That does not include piss poor education, lousy, profit-driven healthcare, rising profit-driven prices, and tax breaks for "job creators" that put all that profit into their own pockets. George W had a net job creation record of about 1/2 million jobs. And astronomical profits that should have been re-invested in jobs and increased wages.
Dean
I bet you were employed for all 8 years of the Bush Administration.
Actually, anyone who thinks that this mess isn't LARGELY the result of Republicans is an idiot. There are broader effects from Campaign Finance/Lobbyist intervention and surely limited examples of corruption...but to not realize this is the result of a protracted effort by Republicans since the late 60's requires not paying attention (or paying attention exclusively to propaganda).
Most of them Slodon, and Clinton, and Bush Sr. Even Ronny, Jimmy, Gerry, and Dick. And I'm still employed But sometimes it really wasn't worth the effort. So, your point is????
Dean: But that is the one of the main problems with the tax code as it exists today. Companies don't exist to hire people or create jobs. Hiring people and creation of jobs is the byproduct of that profit, and that profit is most often re-invested in those jobs you want to see when the government gets out of the way. I have no problem with reasonable, protective regulation. I don't want the consumer getting screwed or abused. But you can't complain about jobs going overseas while demanding more and more job killing regulations and higher and higher taxes on business.
Far too often in this day and age, the tax code is not used to fund government, which is its intended legitimate purpose. Instead, it is used as a behavior modification and manipulation tool to try and elicit a behavior from either the public or a business, which is deemed to be acceptable to the government. I just don't want, or need, the Federal Government holding my hand on every little thing in my life.
Conservative, WAAAY to much common sense for a Democrat to understand. With them, it's all emotion. Facts be damed.
So far, Conservative, you've agreed with everything I've said. I pay taxes willingly, at a rate higher than most millionaires. My problem is that my tax dollars are not getting me the things they should be spent on. Republican lawmakers have blocked every legislation that could help this country and the people in it so a select few can keep pocketing billions. Probably the only political promise that has been kept through this administration so far. When Boehner promised to block everything from the White House, who knew he didn't give a rats a$$ what it was or what it could do. He was just being a racist bigoted prick.
tpaine, you have no idea what I'm capable of understanding. You're just being a bigoted prick
tpaine: Yeah, that "fairness" thing really clouds the minds of lot of people who suppress what would otherwise be perfectly clear to them. When you boil it down, the only three things the government is supposed to do in the terms of fairness is to make sure the playing field is level, make sure companies don't have a monopolistic advantage, and make sure they are not abusing their workers under current law. Beyond that, it should be left up to the individual to make it or not.
For many, it seems that if someone tries really hard, but still fails, then the government should step in and support them forever. I have no problem with a temporary safety net for anyone. I just don't want it to be an ongoing multi-generational way of life as it is for many.
Dean:
Well then if I'm understanding you correctly, you're defining helping this country by confiscation of what someone else makes. You feel the role of government is to determine how much of what someone makes they should be allowed to keep based on some formula of fairness that the government would develop.
If we had a balanced budget amendment that would force government to live within its means, and if those taxes would go to reduce the deficit, then I might actually go along with it for a while. But the fact of the matter is that no matter how much you tax the rich, congress and the president (both parties) are still spending half a trillion more than we take in, even if you got the tax increase.
I thought that was one of the founding principles of the nation; that the freedoms you have would allow you to be as successful as you can within the conscripts of the law. I've never bought into the notion that if a rich person makes a buck, that it somehow means there is one less dollar for anyone else. That is the way wealth is created. As I said, as long as a company is acting within the law and not screwing their workers based on that law, then they can make as much as their talents will allow them in my book. I have no problem with that at all: Them making more doesn't mean that there is less for me to make.
Close, but no cigar. Taxes are a fact. Taxes are paid to the government. The government has a responsibility to use that money for the benefit of the taxpayers. That scenario is being buried deeper and deeper all the time. You're right about the fact that, at the present time, it doesn't seem to matter who is in the White House. There are 5 things the gov't should be doing with that money: education, health-care (not providing, but regulating), national DEFENSE, not wars we have no business fighting, Infrastructure, to keep roads, bridges and buildings from falling down, and make new ones. and international relations. Not birth control, not marriage, not religion or the hundred or so annoyances things the right want to dictate. Don't know where you got the idea I'm against the rich.
To bad government dosent get out of education.I would shut down the department of education.
Eric Holder should go,He shows a callous disregard to the american people.
Such a corrupt administration,it makes me ill.
Ive never seen the government do anything well,they start wars.Obamas Iran war is next,it well destroy our country with expensive oil. I almost hate the congress,they suck! TERM LIMITS ARE NEEDED!
Write in Ron Paul. If Romney had a brain he would ask RP to be VP and get his supporters votes.
Who made Eric Holder Attorney general? Was it Bush? Or was it Obama? Make sure you know which adminstration you are casting your broad brush at, sonny!
roni, you say our educational system is great the way it is?. or, you send your kids to private school? I agree the government is corrupt. I also agree RP was the best choice for the right. (or, maybe both sides). But, Obama will not start any wars. Not after what Jr. did.
Dean: I think we're probably a lot closer together than we are farther apart. But just to make sure, then can you be a bit more specific about who the "select few that pocket billions are". I figured you were talking about CEO's, corporations, the rich in general.
I don't believing in taxing those people as a way to put them in their place, or modify their behaviors through the tax code. Again, that is not the purpose of government. And, for the most part, I agree with your 5 areas and the specifics you gave about them. The only area where I would split a hair is that infrastructure, outside of the interstate system should be paid for and maintained by the several states, and not the federal government.
But to that end, how many times have you heard stories about the Federal Government threatening to withhold transportation dollars if the state doesn't engage in this behavior or that behavior? That is exactly why I hate using the tax code as a behavior manipulator. That was NEVER its intended purpose.
Well how about that, we've actually had a civil conversation. As far as who is pocketing the money, to a large degree, your assumption is, in my opinion, correct. I am thinking mostly about CEO's and corporations. But not because they are rich. It's because the government, especially since Jr., have created an economy where jobs can't be created because so few people have the money to create the demand needed for extra production. What creates jobs is a demand for products and services. Corporations receive untold government money, our money, through several funding and incentive programs for the reported purpose of more jobs. To a large degree, wages have been stalled at the same rates for years. If those employers had a reason to put that money back into the payroll, (not all of it, pick a limit) Employees would have more, buy more, and create more demand. In turn creating more jobs. But with total deregulation, they are allowed to put most of it in their pockets. The rest of us are supposed to be subservient to the job gods. Because there are a lot of people in line to replace every one of us. I could go on, but I think I've said it plainly enough.
Actually the Federal Government is not susposed to be in Education. That is the States responseibility. Hence the reason for Property taxes, to support schools. There should not be any Department of Education at the federal level. One reason the schools have less money (Feds skimming off the top). While I like Ron Paul's domestic platforms, his foriegn and drug stances I can't go with. I like Rubio, or Wisconson's senator, (just would hate to loose them in congress) better, I even like his son better. Besides R. Paul wouldn't bring that much to the table.