In 2006 Romney the Governor touted his Massachusetts healthcare law (RomneyCare) as 'a model for the nation.' ObamaCare is basically a federalized version og RomneyCare.

...so how can we trust Romney the flip-flopper. Romney is a flop.

Obama/Biden 2012

dmallett Last I checked, the vast majority want Obamacare repealed so how can that be a losing issue when Romney has said all along he will repeal Obamacare?

Not sure what vast majority your talking about. The way I hear it, the vast majority wants Obamacare as you call it. I freaking love the thing. And you can build on it too. Win Win for Obama

Right after the Supreme Court ruling, there was a moving story about a supporter of RomneyCare who is now working in the Midwest and knows how insurance exchange works from her days in Massachusetts. She is happy with Obamacare - a federalized RomneyCare -

.

.

Kathleen Kearns burst into tears when she got the news that the Supreme Court had upheld the Obama administration's health care overhaul.

"I'm just really happy," said Kearns, a self-employed graphic designer in Chicago. "For me personally, I feel less fear about being able to purchase health insurance."

Kearns, 55, has struggled to obtain insurance for herself and her daughter, who currently is covered under her stepmother's health plan.

Kearns bought a Blue Cross Blue Shield plan, but as her age went up, so did her premium, she said.

Kearns hopes to find more affordable coverage through a state health exchange. She's familiar with how the exchange works in Massachusetts and is impressed.

"It's a streamlined process," she said. "It seems very transparent. It's just easy to use. I'd be pulled into a larger group, which helps keep my costs down..."

Kearns said health care has become so politicized that the people in need have gotten lost in the debate.

"There are people like me and other small-business owners purchasing health care, and this affects us greatly," she said. "I feel this (court decision) is breaking through the myths and brings us closer together.
Health care is a human right, and everybody needs it. It's not us versus them."

(Earth to Willard): Stop it! You're only making yourself look more desperate than you already are.

Tax or penalty. You only pay if you are a freeloader. Less than 1% will have to pay it and I know we have more American freeloaders than that. Now the rest of us will not have to pay for you. Mike_P101: If you don't have insurance you are sponging off the rest of us. If you do you will not pay a penny more. This is law now so wait five years (it will be fully effective in 2014) and then judge it. Don't believe all the scare tactics.

@Pigotry - I couldnt have said it better. Thanks for your post.

Flippity doo dah. He was for it before he was against it, again. Elect Mittens and on his first day in office he will fly backwards around the earth so fast that he will go back in time to an era where all his follwers will be really, really comfortable.

dmallet, there is no current poll that says the "vast majority" want PPACA repealed. In fact there are some that show that those that want it repealed are in the minority.

Romney is so cynical...ObamaCare is modeled on RomneyCare because of Obama's triangulation (originally Clinton's success formula).

ObamaCare - A win for all Americans; a win for Democrats as a champion of all Americans.

RomneyDon'tCare any more ...? the latest episode of 'As the Vulture Turns...'

Obama/Biden 2012

Clinton/Clinton 2016

Sure, fine, whatever, it's a tax. But let's be honest here, it's a tax that almost nobody will have to pay.

Just like under Romneycare in Massachusetts, where a tax is imposed on those who do not buy insurance, less than 1% have actually had to pay it because 99% of the people now have healthcare.

Call it whatever you want, call it blu cheese dressing for all I care, the simple fact, once again, is that almost nobody will have to pay it.

For all the RWNJ's that insist on moaning about Obama not living up to campaign pledges;

Reagan promised no new taxes and raised them (Revenue enhancements) anyway and he's a GNOP saint.

George H.W. Bush (read my lips) promised no new taxes and raised them anyway and G.H.W. Bush held court with Romney bowing and crawling for the nod from George the First.

George W. (shrub) Bush ran on a conservative platform that consisted mainly of cutting taxes on ("his Base") the wealthy, whom he made more wealthy by starting TWO unfunded and Privatized wars driving the country deeper into debt while feeding the likes of Halliburton and the rest of the subcontracters . And as a parting gift to "his Base" signed the TARP stimulus bill that shored up Wall Street at the expense of Main Street.

So it's a tax. GET OVER IT. Someone has to pay, this country doesn't run on the money raised by Grover Norquist, Karl Rove, Darth Cheney or the Koch brothers, only the CPACs.

Very few will have to pay and the ones that do can afford it. It's not a single payer system but it's a good start until we can get there.

James,

You are incorrect, about many things.

First, in the highly unlikely event that Romney wins this election (he's way too far behind on the electoral map and has no viable path to 270 electoral votes) he would not be able to repeal ACA with an executive order. Thank goodness he'll never have the opportunity to try.

As for your assertion that President Obama is breaking a promise not to raise taxes on those making under $200,000 a year, that promise remains intact. First, once the ACA law is fully enacted, every single American will be able to afford health insurance, so almost nobody will have to pay this penalty. If anyone does, it'll only be because they chose to (why they would though is a mystery, because by 2016, health insurance will be cheaper than the penalty.)

Keep up the lies, it only helps President Obama and the DNC, and we thank you for that.

Republicans want everyone to have guns.....and no one to have health care.

GOP thought the sky would fall when we passed Social Security in the 1930s and again when we passed Medicare 1960s. Their god Ronnie Raygun ranted and raved that Medicare was socialism and would mean the loss of America's freedom - and that turned out fine, just as the PPACA will. Obama has my vote in 2012 so that we can continue on the path of saving American lives.

Obama 2012. The only good option for America.

BTW:

The GOP sells fear and hate like a carnival barker sells ticket to see the circus.

It's pretty obvious why, after thinking it over, Romney decided to reverse his own position to agree that the penalty is a tax. All this is the stupidest argument for a presidential candidate to engage in while the country still suffers from the 2008 Criminal Banking Activity. If you can't afford health insurance in 2014 once the exchanges and subsidies are available, I doubt you make enough money to file taxes to trigger a penalty.

In Romney's state of Mass, most of the people have health insurance, a whopping 95%!!! He should be gloating about his pioneering health care reform and helping uninsured people instead of beating up on himself.

What this proves is that Romney the Robot is captive of Republican special interests who want to preserve the people as a piggy bank for their donors--banks, insurance companies, oil, etc. He will go so far as to bash himself in a desperate ploy to accomplish his goal, which is not, by the way, to make anyone's life better but to prove only that he can be historic. Some people want to be president just to be president--an ego thing.

Republicans don't care if you don't have insurance; they don't care if you suffer from an illness and die as a result. If your name isn't Jamie Dimon, they don't care about you. Yet they succeed gloriously in convincing their followers to vote against their own interests: "By golly, even though I have a heart defect and asthma, I won't take part in gubmint health insurance. If I can't pay the bill out of my own social security check, then I'll just suffer the consequences. And by the way, I no longer believe in social security or medicare either. If I can no longer work, then perhaps my time on earth is just over."

Why that's an America we can all be proud of!

I can see why the Las Vegas Mob and Macau is giving the Super Pacs Millions for Romney.It looks like he can be bought ..and looks like he has been ! But what is he giving in return ? Are the Chinese buying America ?

Mitt has it exactly backwards! For those of us who've been seeing our insurance rates increase due to those who go to the hospital without insurance, we see this as a TAX BREAK!!! Finally I no longer have to pay for those without health insurance - those who've been getting their health care paid with MY dimes!!!

Mitt Romney before: It's a penalty.

Mitt Romney now: It's a tax.

Looks like the Etch-A-Sketch just got shaken again.

Shake it up, Mitt!!!

So it was only a "fee" when Romney instituted the mandate, but now it's a "tax" because of the Supreme Court ruling?

And this is worse than Obama's position? First it was a penalty (fee). Then they argued in front of the Supreme Court that it was a tax. Now that he has to sell it to the American people, it's a penalty again. Give it a rest Bethie, your side is so hypocritical. Romney is right. It is irrelevent what individuals may think of the ruling, the Supremes have spoken and it's a tax. Get over it.

You too, Puh-lease.

I'd like to know what proportion of the pro-ACA and anti-ACA population have actually read and understood the ACA.

How the hell can we have an intelligent conversation if we know nothing of which we opine? To be for or against something just because the social/party/religious overlords say so makes us nothing more than thralls.

@Bitterhawk - Obama has always stated it was a penalty. Now if the supreme court wants to call it a tax so be it, but it's still a penalty as Obama has always stated. Romney as you see in the article is the one that flip flopped or etcha sketched it from his original idea as a penalty to a tax.

The tax code is full of penalties and rewards, and there are so many examples of parts of the population being compelled to buy something, most notably those who choose to drive an automobile, as well a luxury taxes on cigarettes, etc. I never agree with Limbaugh, but who cares if it's a tax or a penalty?

Only the ignorant Teapublican base will believe that ACA is a "huge" tax hike on the middle class. Only those who hate the president and would never vote for him anyway will believe the mandate fine is outrageously costly. Heck, it isn't even enforceable, and doesn't need to be because those who land in ER without insurance will have to wait six months before they can get it. Oooops, too late.

But the biggest problem of all is if the GOP/TP try to run on "repeal," because then they will have to offer a credible "replace" plan. And they can't. Let's demand a "repeal" of Teapublican's heath benefits until they are sincere and act in good faith.

Romney, he'll flip and flop, and say and do anything to get elected. Romney -- He's not in it for you.

So, according to Mitt, here in MA it's a penalty, but for every other state it's a tax.

Got it.

“Our experience also demonstrates that getting every citizen insured doesn't have to break the bank. First, we established incentives for those who were uninsured to buy insurance. Using tax penalties, as we did, or tax credits, as others have proposed, encourages ‘free riders’ to take responsibility for themselves rather than pass their medical costs on to others. This doesn't cost the government a single dollar.”

You have wishful thinking and the statistics are 50% at best.....

35% is more accurate, so you're being exceedingly generous.

Salon:

In 2008, when Romney was running for president for the first time, ABC News host Charlie Gibson asked him during a New Hampshire debate, “Governor … you imposed tax penalties in Massachusetts?” Romney replied, “Yes, we said, look, if people can afford to buy it, either buy the insurance or pay your own way; don’t be free riders.” It was the same debate in which he infamously declared, “I like mandates.”

Good to see Feisty weighing in.

Brenda,

Thanks... I think...? ☺

Poor candudate Weather Vane is at it again. Can't seem to make up his little mind(over exaggeration). Shake your Etch-A-Sketch again romoney and tell us what your answer is this time. What a fool! So clueless.

Tea Bagger Clown

GOP thought the sky would fall when we passed Social Security in the 1930s and again when we passed Medicare 1960s.

Gawd ain't that the truth. These Chicken Little's have cried about the sky falling so much lately that they must all be in their bunkers soiling themselves now. Fast and Furious is Watergate, and ACA is 9-11, and listen to Micheal Savage about Justice Roberts or the latest from Donald Trump.

If there is anything worth being shocked and appalled about, are the leaks from the SCOTUS. Me thinks Thomas and his Teabagger wife need to be investigated. How's that you conspiracy theory ignoramuses!?

Oh, and despite the record temperatures, intense storms, wildfires, rising sea levels, etc, don't worry about climate change -- that's just a hoax.

IXLR8 -- If you drill down into the polls, you'll see not only overwhelming support for the individual parts of ACA, but those who are against it includes progressives who want single-payer. Now polls show a growing majority who feel the issue is settled and congress should move on. When folks get their first refund checks, the popularity of ACA will increase even more.

On this Independence Day we can celebrate even more freedoms thanks to ACA. Now folks no longer have to stay stuck in a job for the health insurance. They can change jobs, move, start a business, have children, etc. -- In other words pursuit of happiness.

Bitterhawk Obama has always stated it was a penalty.

Wrong! The administration argued it was a tax in front of the Supreme Court because they knew that the mandate would not be upheld under the Commerce Clause. BTW, it was not.

They did not argue it was a tax, they argued the penalty can be collected under the tax law in Laue of the commerce clause. Stop twisting what people say and stick to the truth, don't be a etcha sketch like your Master is.

David Axelrod Tweets:

~ Astonishing story about Mitt's Bermuda tax shelter and his efforts to keep it secret, apparently skirting MA law.

~ A Swiss bank account. A dozen funds in the Cayman Islands. And now, a Bermuda tax shelter he failed to report.

########

And Mitt has the audacity to call others free riders?

Pat Boston MA. -- Aside from the Vanity Fair article about the Bermuda tax shelter, according to David Cay Johnston, Romney’s refusal to release his tax returns indicates that Romney has “been thinking about this since before Bain” but the American people deserve to learn:

Did Romney buy illegal, gray-market tax shelters?

Was Romney audited in a way that the government found serious problems?

Did Romney make use of offshore vehicles in order to defer or not pay taxes?

Did Romney take advantage of things that were not caught in audits by the IRS?

If Romney’s returns are clean, if there’s nothing to worry about, then why not just provide them?

Apparently pro-lifers are unhappy with Bain Capital and Stericycle, a waste management company that disposes of fetuses. Romney claims he left Bain to work on the Olympics, but he continued and still continues to receive income from Bain that includes sizable profits from Stericyle. If folks want to know the truth, they will have to see Romney’s tax returns.

With or without the tax returns, most folks already know that Romney only cares about money -- And now being president because that’s the only thing he doesn’t have, and he intends to buy that too.

...they argued the penalty can be collected under the tax law.

And how exactly is this not arguing that it's a tax? Look, the ACA was originally written with a mandate that was enforced with a penalty using authority that Congress assumed it had under the Commerce Clause. The Supreme Court ruled that it did not have this power. Had Roberts not re-written the law to say that the penalty was a tax and therefore constitutional under the broad taxing powers that Congress has, it would have been struck down. Since the "tax" for not having health insurance is punitive, it is indeed a penalty, but it is also still a tax. You said that Obama has always said that it was a penalty, this may well be true. What he hasn't been consistant on is whether it is a tax or not. Get it? He said it wasn't a tax, then apparently he evolved and said it was a tax. Now he has regressed and it again is not a tax.

Yes, Mitt, it's a tax. A tax on FREELOADERS, and not on those of us who already have health insurance coverage, or a tax on those who can't afford the coverage. Part of my premiums are being used to pay for the freeloaders that Mitt wants to help protect. I say that they should be responsible for their own health care, and if they don't want insurance then they can pay the tax for being a freeloader. I'm tired of paying for the people Mitt is saying shouldn't have to pay anything.

Mitt Romney - "I was for RomneyCare before I was against it, then I was in front of being beside it while at the same time, being for behind it after against it".

Bitterhawk

...they argued the penalty can be collected under the tax law.

Yeh, the same way the IRS can charge a fee if you don't pay your taxes on time? Who Cares?!

Why don't rightwingers just shut off FOX Noise/Hate radio, calm down, and then be intellectually honest. First off in regard to the mixed opinions, with Kagan and Breyer siding with conservatives to allow states to decide on expansion of Medicaid (or Sotomayor siding with conservatives on the Arizona immigration law). Second, Chief Justice Roberts hit the commerce clause hard, as well as making insinuations about throwing out elected representatives if voters don't like their taxation decisions.

What rightwingers really wanted was for the SCOTUS, which they believed they had successfully stacked in their favor, to be activists judges and legislate from the bench. We should be grateful on this Independence Day that there is still some faith in our institutions and the rule of law. And though our nation is not a perfect Union, it is still the best one we have.

Tax, fee, penalty ...whatever you want to to call it, it's all a matter of semantics chosen to appeal to your particular electorate.

It's projected that an overwhelming majority of us won't have to pay it, so why is Romney making such a big issue about the choice of words, be it a tax or a penalty? Does he feel his campaign doesn't have anything else worth talking about?

Why doesn't he talk about the creation of JOBS or any workable, detailed plans to build upon this economy and how to secure this nation's future economy? Does all his campaign have left are patriotic sounding buzzwords to sell their naive, unworkable, ideological messages and proposals to his conservative base?

And consider this: How is Romney and Co. going to help America's economy if these regressive right-wingers believe that the government they work in, should not "interfere" with anyone, or any thing

-- This means, if you vote them in, they won't do anything for you but give you lip service about, "Let the free markets decide."!

...the exceptions of course, when it's a reflection of their Tea-Evangelist religious beliefs to turn women into closely-monitored second citizens, eliminate all labor rights and wage minimums, de-emphasize the teaching of science in our schools and society, deny gays equal rights, eliminate oversight and regulations that benefit and protect consumers and the environment, force minorities of non-european descent out of the country, and want us to work forever under indebted servitude in disposable, "at-will" temp jobs, while at the same time, they want to place loaded guns in everyone's hands and give the unfettered Wall Street wealthy and the fundamentalist churches they belong to, control over all personal decisions we make in our reduced lives.

How is their twisted version of a "smaller government," supposed to help us? With 'smaller government' like this, who needs dictatorships ?

And Romney, get a clue...only small minds want to make this a BIG issue. Is it a Tax? Is it a Penalty? WHO GIVES A DAMN? Just pay your fair share, for god's sake!

Romney doesn't need to find a #2. He is a #2. I live in a heavily right wing part of the state, and I can tell you everyone is excited about being able to afford health insurance, since being a right to work state very few businesses provide any. The only people opposed to ACA from either party are the wacko Rushblo freaks that are so racist and ignorant they don't care if they're cutting off their nose to save their face. These folks to a man, or women, are uneducated buffoons unable to form a thought of their own.

You are so right my friend. I for one thought healthcare had a snowball's chance in you know where considering the makeup of SCOTUS. For working people like me, it feels good to know that my premiums will not continue to rise because certain people don't pay what they owe in our healthcare system. I have a question for those of you who just let the press and politicians tell you what the new mandate says? Before you start harping on how bad something is, study for yourselves. If you can read, sit down and read the mandate for yourselves.

Admiral Akbar from Star Wars (the guy with the big fish head.) "It's a trap!!!" Mitt Romney - "It's a tax!!!" Notice any similarities.

Oh my God, with all the Republicans taking a solemn oath (conflict of interest anyone?) not to increase taxes (especially on the 1 percentiles, what are we to do??? I know, throw the grandma, and the kids, and the indigent, and the working poor under the bus.

Guess what, I can still sign off with a great big LOL. Three cheers for Obamney Care, the GOP really played that game well!!!!

Pigotry wrote:

In 2006 Romney the Governor touted his Massachusetts healthcare law (RomneyCare) as 'a model for the nation.' ObamaCare is basically a federalized version og RomneyCare.

...so how can we trust Romney the flip-flopper. Romney is a flop.

So we lose either way, as I have believed all along. I hate being right all the time.... well, almost all the time. Survive!

When they say that Roberts rewrote the Bill, what does that mean?

Did he actually change the wording of the signed bill, and if so will it need to be revoted on or resigned?

Or is it just that his interpretation of it is being called a rewrite? And if so, is not that patently false?

Silly Libs!
The people of MA wanted Romneycare. He proposed legislation and then the state representatives changed it up and passed it. (State representatives were run by Dems) I don't have a problem with a state wanting to do this. In fact why cant states opt out of Obamacare? I know Obama and gang allowed many business to opt out of this, why?

Silly James!

Do you remember what you had for breakfast this morning? I remember when Romneycare was in discussion and immediately after passage. The majority of Mass. residents hated it! They only changed their minds after it went into effect and prices started coming down. The same will happen with Obmamnycare.

As for a, "vast majority," wanting to repeal the ACA, the same, "vast majority," liked every individual part of the bill when asked about them. It's easy to confuse the American people with ads: look at all the people that buy Apple. Now, the majority is in favor of the law, because it was upheld as Constitutional, and even more will like it after 2014, when the bulk of if goes into effect.

As for being a tax, everything is a tax. What you pay extra on beer and gas and cigarettes is a tax. Social security is a tax. Medicare and Medicaid are a tax. Funding the military is a tax. Rebuilding roads is a tax. Get over it. Governments pay for things with taxes. What we had before was a social system, where freeloaders got free care, and people that were doing the right thing by getting insurance were paying for them. Now, freeloaders will pay a tax, and the rest of us will get a better deal on insurance.

There is no downside for the American people; only for the bottom line of health insurance executives that eat their meals with gold plated utensils. Think that's an exaggeration? There is a very famous person who was in that position until he couldn't stomach the system anymore and turned whistle-blower. I suggest you look him up and watch some of the interviews.

Lukin

The original bill sent to SCOTUS mandated the purchase of health insurance using the commerce clause as the basis for the authority that Congress had to enforce it. The bill after the Supreme Courts decision uses the power of Congress to levy taxes as the basis to enforce the mandate. Clearly two different premises, so what do you think?

SI

Why are there so many people in this country against everyone having health? We have the highest infant mortality rate of all of the developed countries in the world. we rank 23rd in life expectancy. Why does Romney run away from his greatest achievement as governor? This is crazy.

Bitterhawk

It doesn't matter what we believe, the penalty for not having health insurance is now a tax.

This seems to be yet another rightwing obsession with semantics like using the term "democracy" instead of "Republic." In this case the reason being that some misguided Teapublicans may think they can run against Dems with claims of a tax hike. But even if we go with this assumption, there is no there there.

In regard to the mandate, the fines are small and unenforceable (because it doesn't need to be). In regard to ACA, the tax penalties will only apply to 1% of the population, to the Health Care Industrial Complex, Cadillac policies, and a luxury-type tax on tanning salons. That's it -- nothing, nada, zilch paid by the middle class! The GOP/TP lies aren't going to get any traction with progressives or true Independent swing voters, or even some of their own base.

Bitterhawk

Unlike my fellow conservatives who think Roberts is some kind of genius who outmaneuvered the left, I think he folded under the pressure and made his decision based purely on personal (as opposed to partisan) politics with respect to how the decision would ultimately be viewed in the future.

If folks look at the majority consensus among constitutional lawyers before the decision, most believed ACA would be upheld. THIS should tell you something! The REAL disconcerting question is why Alito, Scalia, et al ignored something so obvious as "taxation without representation" in their interpretation of the constitution. That justices appointed by Democratic presidents joined with conservatives tells us it is the justices like Alito and Scalia who are ideologues.

And as mentioned above, WTF with the leaks from the rightwingers in the court? Enough! Repeated 5-4 decisions along "Party lines" are bad enough, but if we learned anything, it is the need to have President Obama make more appointments to the SCOTUS, and NOT Mitt "corporations are people too" Romney tilting the SCOTUS so far to the Right that it topples over.

Like many others, I'm tired of rightwingers never accepting rulings, for example still trying to undermine Roe v Wade. Progressives have to deal with Bush v Gore and Citizen's United. Get over it! If everything favored the extreme Right, we would be a dictatorship.

We have to have faith in our institutions and rule of law. Otherwise we'd just be a Banana Republic. On this Independence Day, how about a few rightwing radicals give thought to that.

So the Republicans think polling 2,000 people is an accurate measure of what the people want and they wonder why We think you just can't fix STUPID. Remember Obama was Elected on his Health Care platform and he had a commending majority, so no matter how much you people say it don't make it so. Oh, and don't forget only those that don't have their own health care pays the fee so they are covered. Great spin but people are much smarter than you people are.

Remember can't FIX STUPID.

OBAMA 2012

It doesn't really matter who the president is for the next 20 - 50 years. Our country is on a path of bankruptcy that will hit sometime during that period in which we will owe 30 trillion dollars, and will just print money to pay the interest sending us into a super-inflation period. When our politicians speak of saving money they talk about reducing the budget deficit, well guess what this still represents an increase to our debt. The only way out of a situation is to find politicians will to admit our future and start making Americans realize what will occur. Looking at Obama and Romney I don't see either of them thinking of OUR future only THEIR immediate present.

Mitt Romney - Experience to be POTUS:

Now with all this "experience" he wants your vote to lead the Largest Economy and Most Powerful Nation in the World.

Let's not listen to candidates and think for a minute. With obamacare we are adding 26 million more people to healthcare with same number of doctors???? Why do we think it will cost less??? Because doctors are going to charge less? Insurance companies give up profits? I don't think so.

Common sense, demand and supply thing, more demand for doctors more they will charge. More and more doctors going away from medicare and Medicaid because of govt low claims and strangling get rules, screw it, they are going private.

So, for people already having insurance, they will have longer lines to doctor appointment or pay more for earlier appointment, like USPS quicker delivery pay more or pay less for snailmail.

Hilarious.

This was the Republicon plan in 1993 and Romneycare in Mass.

This is a tax break break for the 99% by the way.

The MANDATE to the healthcare legislation is the very type of tax which ROMNEY and his kind enjoy......a tax which only poor people will be paying.

Poor Mitt. Lips and tongue can't find synchronization. Typical republicanism. A common afflicition of liars.

He can go sit on some tacks.

Obama 2012!!

Could it possibly be that Roberts got wind that Thomas had sold his vote and didn't want this decision to tarnish his record? Clarence Thomas should be impeached for his involvement in this by all rights, and Roberts went out of his way to find a way to make this legal.

The penalty for not buying insurance is a tax, however there is no way of really making sure people do so its kind of moot point. Mitt I am sure doesn't want this to be a tax because then it would mean his plan was a tax and he has done everything he could to try to make it appear like he didn't raise taxes, even when he did.

bnb28 -- Having ACA paid for is one reason for the phased implementation, as well allowing time to prepare for full implementation in 2014. This includes programs to increase the number of primary care physicians, for example, and why ACA will be a job creator and not a job killer.

The reason costs will go down are many, for example preventative health care is cheaper than ER care. The Exchange will increase competition. If we had a public option, that would have been even better as competition. You use the example of the USPS, but fail to consider what UPS, FedEx, and DHL would charge without competition from the USPS.

The USPS is non-profit in that it is funded completely by the sale of postage and only to cover operating costs. Likewise, non-profit delivery systems (not charging above overhead) would be better yet in our health care system, and many like Intermountain already exist and provide same quality care as for-profits do. Hopefully ACA will be improved upon going forward.

The providers (hospitals, clinics, doctors) are the ones who want the Medicaid expansion. The alternative is non-payment for services that they have to pass on to paying patients and tax payers.

Mac Forrester -- Talk about lips and tongue synchronization, imagine the hyperventilating from Romney when HIT with "Obamneycare" during the debates. Under pressure from Teapublicans, tax versus penalties will be only one of his many flip flops.

This seems to be yet another rightwing obsession with semantics...

I agree it is a matter of semantics which is why I think the bill is still unconstitutional. Since when can the government tax you for not purchasing something?

I'm tired of rightwingers never accepting rulings, for example still trying to undermine Roe v Wade.

I would like to point out to you that I did say that what I believed had been rendered moot by the decision, which would imply that while I'm not exactly happy with the ruling, I do indeed accept it. As for Roe v Wade, it's kind of non sequitur to argue that because of one extreme example of a decision that many feel emotional about, one can draw the conclusion that "rightwingers never accept rulings". If sometime in the future Roe v Wade is overturned, will leftwingers accept it? If not, can I then argue that they "never accept rulings"? By the way, I happen to support Roe v Wade.

In regard to ACA, the tax penalties will only apply to 1% of the population, to the Health Care Industrial Complex, Cadillac policies, and a luxury-type tax on tanning salons. That's it -- nothing, nada, zilch paid by the middle class!

Dude, if you really believe this, you're in for a rude awakening come 2014. The bill was designed to highlight it's more marketable features in the first five years, while backloading the invasive taxes, cuts and costs so that they would kick in after the election. If you don't believe me, do a little research.

I notice that you lefties are all for taxing and spending as long as it's somebody else who's taxed and as long as you are the beneficiaries of the spending. TP, who's not paying their fair share?

One Day you Obamamites will all wake up from your hypnotic trance and finally realize how much damage he's done to this nation in just a short three years of "Place the Blame Elsewhere and Do Nothing Politics" if Obama was any kind of leader he would be able to Woe the Masses in the House of Representatives to get the job done. He is no Reagan even though he bought Reagan's book to try and be a bit like him. The problem is Obama does nothing but blame others and has "ZERO" Statesman skills. If he did he would know how to use his power base which is eroding otherwise he would not be running Commercials already in the Most Liberal State in the Union Oregon. You guys keep on believing how great he is. If he was he would already have all of his legislation passed and before the American people if it was so important to him. Its not important to him, only staying in Power. Keep on listening to these Politico Hacks on the Right and Left and stay brain-dead. He is going to be known as the " Great Divider" instead of the "Great Unit-er". He had two years of Both House's Controlled and did nothing more than get one "Big Hairball Passed". Now we are choking on it and trying to cough it up like cats.

You see Reagan when he had problems getting things done that where important to him. He did not put his heels in the ground and say its the "Highway or My Way!" He would go before the people and make his case to the American people. Using the Presidency as a "Bully Pulpit" to get main stay pieces of legislation important to him passed. That's because Reagan genuinely believed in the Legislation. So he knew how to cross the lines to get it done Obama does not and therefore he needs to go. You libs would be better running "Hillary" at least she knows how to be a Statesman.

Here's your 2016 Ticket Clinton/Powell and that would win!

Happy Independence Day! America if you can Keep Your Independence! You keep giving more and more control to the government that Thomas Jefferson so warned us about how it could become the worst monster in the way of Liberty! He said he would prefer a people with little restraints then a government with all kinds of restraints! Your Freedom is slowly becoming a state of mind!

By stating that the mandate is indeed a tax, Romney can now join a chorus of Republican leaders

And there lies one of Romney's many faults, he's a follower, not a leader, if elected, someone else will run the country, not him.

Last I checked, the vast majority want Obamacare repealed

Exactly, the vast majority being "republicans," hoping Romney wins, so they can re-introduce the same health care as
"RomneyCare." That is the biggest issue here, they wanted this for themselves, not for President Obama to initiate.

OBAMA/BIDEN....2012!!!!

If parade-goers were looking for clues to the candidate's intentions or to hear policy discussed, they may have come away disappointed.

Imagine my surprise. Romney's platform is basically, "I'm not Obama". There is no substance. He does not give specifics. He flip flops from day to day. And, the greatest hypocrisy of all: He plans to repeal his own health plan the minute he gets into office (like that's gonna happen). The truth is that he wants to get rich off of America (just like George W. and Cheney did) by starting another war in Iran. He sees the presidency as a business opportunity. And, that's why he won't go into specifics.

Obama realizes that the same old ideas aren't working and is willing to try something different. He is trying to fix America, not fill his own bank account. So, my vote goes to Obama - and Romney can go back into obscurity, where he belongs.

Obama/Biden 2012

[If Romney wins the presidental election, he can on day 1, executive order Obamacare--GONE.]

James, you might want to wake from your coma soon...because Romney can do no such thing. It would need to go for a vote.

It's done...over with...ACA is here to stay. If you can afford health care and choose not to purchase it, that's where the penalty comes in. Seems all the "deadbeats" who can afford healthcare will have the PERSONAL RESONSIBLILTY to purchase it, because I ain't supporting no freeloader!

As far as Republicans thinking Roberts is a genius for saying ACA is a tax, and that it will "fire up the base" and get Romney elected, all I have to say about that is:

You are really grasping at invisible straws...now why in the world would Roberts go through all that when he could have just cast his vote against ACA?

As the saying goes, you can't fix stupid...

Eric if Obama is so great then answer me this? Why is his Presidential Campaign already running negative ads against Romney in the City of Portland one of the most Liberal City's in Oregon. I will tell you why? Because all those broken promises are catching up to him and his left wing power base. They are not happy. Young people are dismayed with him. I know this because I work with the public here in Portland and I talk to them all the time. They are leaving him and electing to stay out or even give Romney a chance so they can get jobs to use those Education's they where told would get them a higher station in life. No Jobs No Votes!

Feisty!

Romney spends much of his time sitting in front of a mirror and we know exactly what his other hand is doing. Newt enjoyed the same pastime.

....Screw the tax vs fee vs penalty arguments, a rose by any other name is still a rose, as they say, and anyone who can afford the insurance but doesn't buy it and then goes to the doctor or ER is still a welfare queen, by any other name as well.

....Now I'd rather hear Romney step up and talk about the offshore investments he has but for some reason has chosen not to disclose. Look, that fact that they may not be required to be disclosed does not mean that someone who wants to be the leader of the American people should be afraid to explain why he would rather invest in Swiss Banks, the Cayman Islands, etc., instead of the good old U. S. of A. I guess we could suppose it's because he wants to keep that effective tax rate on millions of income under 15%, just like the majority of Middle Class America.

TheSwordNPen79

Here's your 2016 Ticket Clinton/Powell and that would win!

Happy Independence Day! America if you can Keep Your Independence! You keep giving more and more control to the government that Thomas Jefferson so warned us about how it could become the worst monster in the way of Liberty!

..........Jerfferson also warned us about big banks and big business, reconcile that with today's new, improved GOP/TP, who have been taken over by the wealthy elite (before you disagree, remember Grover Norquist and the GOP pledges), so a vote now for the GOP/TP is a vote for even bigger government, just not a truly representative one.

The big lie is abundant out there in the blogasphere and the right wing is losing the battle because they are not telling the truth.
1. They point to the fact that 60% of the people surveyed oppose the plan. That may or may not be true but look at the breakdown of that number. You will find that clost to 60% of those polled do not like it because iit does not go far enough. These ar the people who want things like the single payer or more conventional national health insurance. This knocks the total down to 30%. But wait a second. Of those 30% 50% oppose it because they have an invalid position on it. Things like we all have to join a national government run HC system which is far from the truth but a right wing propogandaploy. Other things like we have to pay a penalty etc. No you do not! Only thing is you lose a tax break that all the people who do have insurance GET! Taking that numbe we visited earlier down to about 15% of those who were syrveyed that have a hard core anti Obamacare attitude which is close to the number of right wing radicals this country is unfortunate enough to have.
OBAMACARE? No it is not. This bill was in the works for 20 years before Obama became president and over 40% of it has repubican influence in it. Fact of the matter is most of that is comprised of right leaning Republicans or moderates who are no longer welcome in the radical right party who have no business even calling themselves Republicans!The ones who just failed in an Attempt to unseat Orrin Hatch a long time Republican stalwart. On that matter after what they did to lugar and tried to do to Hatch all we need to do is give that party a resounding defeat in November and the party loyalists will retake control of it and drive the radical back to their rightful minority status.
Romneycare? No because he floped then flipped forgetting his words are out there.
Mitt Romney has lied about supporting an individual mandate in health care reform say two cable news talking heads, and he will have to face the music.

Mitt Romney and the individual mandate in the health care reform law are "kissing cousins", according to MNBC's Joe Scarborough and Lawrence O'Donnell.

When Tea Party activists and right-wing Republicans focused their distaste for the Affordable Care Act or as conservatives derisively call it, "Obamacare" on the individual mandate provision, fingers pointed to Mitt Romney for including such a provision in the state law he championed and signed when he was governor of Massachusetts.

The Romney strategy for the GOP presidential primary season has been to say that while it might have suited the citizens of his state, at that time, it isn't necessarily a good thing to require it for the other 49 and he opposes it on a federal level.

Unfortunately, another op-ed piece in the USA Today has come back to bite him. During the bitter debates on the legislation as it moved through Congress, Romney wrote:

"There’s a better way. And the lessons we learned in Massachusetts could help Washington find it. Our experience also demonstrates that getting every citizen insured doesn’t have to break the bank. First, we established incentives for those who were uninsured to buy insurance. Using tax penalties, as we did, or tax credits, as others have proposed, encourages “free riders” to take responsibility for themselves rather than pass their medical costs on to others."

In other words, the individual mandate.

And this two faced loser wants to be your president. Good luck with that...

Calling it a tax or a fee is missing the point. The ones who will have to pay it will be the middle class that can least afford it.

It won't be the rich because they have insurance, so they are exempt.

It won't be the poor because they get free Medicaid insurance, courtesy of the taxpayers.

That means it will fall almost entirely on the Middle Class - mostly the lower income middle class.

By the way - The non-partisan Congressional Budget Office says the cost of Obamacare is now estimated at $1.76 TRILLION over 10 years - up from about $940 Billion when it was passed (link below).

How will that ever be paid for??????????????? We're going to go bankrupt even faster than we realized. Thanks, Obama.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/article/1175831

This country is frightening anymore. I think Soros' dream is finally coming true. So is the nightmare.

The fourth of July is the celebration of this once great country. November 6 2012 may be the date of mourning for this once great country.

Dad, I'm so glad you are not here to see what is happening to this country you fought for in WWII. You should have never done it dad, it was all in vain. Sorry you put your life on the line.

"What the liberals on the Court have done is make Obama a liar, he knew this was a tax when he was telling Stephanopolis that "this isnt a tax". How typical for Obama."

And what you (apparently a Conservative)seems to be missing is that now Mitt is a liar because if its a tax for everyone else then it was a tax for the people of MA. . Typical say whatever it takes for your vote politician.

Lucy quit talking to your dead father it makes you sound nuts.

PS the nation will not die off because we insure people. However I do hear the end of the world is near according to some Mayan calendar.

But on a side note what is supposed to happen on 11/6/12? ACA insurance mandate doesn't go into effect until 2014. Its good to know you know so much about it though.

Mickey, NY "[If Romney wins the presidental election, he can on day 1, executive order Obamacare--GONE.] ...James, you might want to wake from your coma soon...because Romney can do no such thing."

So Obama can issue an 'executive order' stating that our immigration laws are not to be enforced, but Romney can't issue an 'executive order' that Obamacare will not be enforced?

Just how does that work in the mind of a Liberal? I'd love to see the rationale on that.

bnb28

Let's not listen to candidates and think for a minute. With obamacare we are adding 26 million more people to healthcare with same number of doctors???? Why do we think it will cost less???

We think it will cost less because we are treating the same number of people right now without Obamacare. The difference is that the 26 million get treated in emergency rooms when their condition has gotten really bad. With Obamacare, they will have insurance and instead of living in chronic pain till it becomes unbearable they will be able to go to a doctor immediately. Getting a disease before it has ravaged your body is a MUCH cheaper solution.

In addition, healthy people tend to be more productive people. Instead of dropping out of the workforce, once you have been cured, you can get back to work immediately. This means that you are less of a burden on society.

Because doctors are going to charge less? Insurance companies give up profits? I don't think so.

Nope. They don't have to charge less. Doctors and nurses work less because they get problems on the 26 million quickly, so in general they have less work to do. This means they can see YOU quicker. Given the shortage of doctors and nurses in this country, this is also a Good Thing.

Not all the candidates are idiots. Obama, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid thought this through.

Willard changes his story - Again.

Willard aligned his story to that of the Republican Establishment - Again.

Willard criticizes the ACA without offering any substantive alternative - Again.

I wouldn't really consider any of this "new"s... would you?

When he was Governor of Massachusetts, Romney insisted that the very similar penaly under Romneycare was NOT a tax. Here's a link to the video from 2006:

Romney's core value is ambition. He is a political flip-flopper who will say whatever he thinks scores political points at that particular moment. Conservatives who think he shares their values are fooling themselves.

@bnb29

So that's going to be your rallying cry now, there are too many people with insurance for the number of doctors we have? Are you serious??? You people are so sad. I keep forgetting that there are no more medical schools and nobody wants to be a doctor. Who do you think you're fooling? This is just pathetic. Are you that hard up for an argument?

There is something seriously wrong with you folks.

Those of you bashing Obama for this remember Mittens said he never raised taxes as governor. So if you want to say Obama lied you have to admit Mittens lied also.

As for taxing everyone that is just not true, the only ones that will see the penalty under the tax code (after all that is what it is) are those that refuse to buy insurance when they can afford it. Arent you righties always complaining about the people asking for handouts, now you are crying because the healthcare law says no more handouts, if you can afford insurance you will get insurance or you will pay the tax penalty.

I can honestly say you righties keep my head spinning, do you guys even know what you really want or are you here to just bash Obama?

You can also look at it like this, if you dont pay your taxes, do you get taxed or do you get penalized under the tax code? From the way you righties have been talking I guess you think if you dont pay your taxes you get taxed for it.

HEY MSNBC - why have most of the posts that were collapsed by the "community" in the above chain relatively mild and/or on-topic, whe very inflammatory liberal comments have not been censored so? LIBERAL BIAS

P.S. - looks like most of the comments collapsed below are conservatives' too. EXPLAIN YOURSELVES, MSNBC!

I can't believe it - MSNBC actually ALTERED my post above. It originally read "...chain were conservative, ..."

@Debdem

Romney insists that he didn't raise taxes but what he did was close loopholes and increase fees. Now, if you say that to conservatives they scream TAX INCREASE!!!!! Not when Mitt does it though. This is just sad.

[I can't believe it - MSNBC actually ALTERED my post above]

Sure they did...

Bitterhawk

I agree it is a matter of semantics which is why I think the bill is still unconstitutional.

And you are STILL wrong.

[So Obama can issue an 'executive order' stating that our immigration laws are not to be enforced, but Romney can't issue an 'executive order' that Obamacare will not be enforced? Just how does that work in the mind of a Liberal? I'd love to see the rationale on that.]

Roy, I'll give you a hint:

It has something to do with the way our system of government works...now you owe it to yourself to do some research and find the answer, cuz, see...I'm tired of rehashing 5th grade American History with ignorant people. I just don't have the patience anymore.

And as far as me being a "liberal", just because you disagree with what is obvious, doesn't make the other person a "liberal". That's called "shooting the messenger". Besides, you don't have the slightest idea of my political persuasion, now do you...

No, you don't.

Have a good night. Roy.

I do not like the whole health care reform package, and I did not like the Massachusetts package, over which then Gov. Romney presided.

But whether you call the money collected by the Government from those not compliant with the health care mandate a tax or a penalty is immaterial. Either way, it is both money collected by the government, and an attempt to coerce citizens to buy something.

I do not believe it to be unconstitutional, it does feel wrong, as if it should be unconstitutional. I also do not believe it will have the desired effect. I live in Massachusetts, and since Romney-care was passed, we've seen no diminishment in the upward march of health care costs. Why the experts are so sure things will work differently on the national level is unclear to me.

Bitterhawk

I agree it is a matter of semantics which is why I think the bill is still unconstitutional. Since when can the government tax you for not purchasing something?

First off, progressives are the ones who've always been against a mandate to purchase coverage from for-profit insurance middlemen. So I'm not going to defend this, and IMO the mandate itself is what folks should still be unhappy about unless we go to single-payer.

With that said, here is the reality about the ACA mandate: 1) not everyone is compelled to purchase coverage because of exemptions; 2) if health care is affordable, folks would be crazy not to have it; 3) the tax penalty is modest; and 4) it is almost impossible for the IRS to make anybody pay it. For those with concern about #4, folks without insurance can't just get it on their way to ER because there is a six month waiting period.

Also, there are other examples of being taxed for not purchasing something, like if you don't purchase a home, you don't get the write-off but still pay for the cost passed on in the rent. If you look at tax credits you see a lot of penalty for not purchasing something, energy efficient products, etc.

Personally, I like tax penalties but would prefer these were imposed on the company peddling crap, like the tanning salon owners rather than the consumer, or sugary drink manufacturers (including fruit cocktail that has little if any juice) that should have labels warning folks these are dangerous to their health. But that would be the day. No, instead we always penalize the illegal instead of the employer, the prostitute instead of the John, really whoever is the poor one in the equation. So the fees on the Health Industrial Complex are appropriate, but unfortunately confused with the mandate.

BTW, here is what Romneycare was about:

His original health care bill said that any Massachusetts resident who did not either have health insurance or post a $10,000 bond as proof they could afford care could lose the personal exemption on their tax returns. In other words, Romney would have imposed a penalty through the state tax form.

And much more severe! This is likely to be exposed in the debates. As Sargent's Post colleague Rachel Weiner said "It's irritating to see the GOP paying so little political penalty for their complete flip-flop on the individual mandate, but it's satisfying to see that by nominating Romney they will at least tie themselves into knots over it."

I happen to support Roe v Wade.

I'm glad to hear that, especially taking into account the Hyde Amendment. Now the Teavangelicals are trying to make contraception illegal for Pete's sake. No, I wouldn't be okay if Roe v Wade was overturned, if for no other reason than when long-time precedent is overturned, that is cause to sit up and take notice.

This is how I've felt about Citizen's United. With further research on it, I feel it is in keeping with Robert's statement that it isn't the job of the court to protect people from the consequences. It is now Congress that needs to require transparency, prevent foreign influence, and other concerns. But now that we know Gore won the 2000 election per the popular vote, I'll never be okay with Bush v Gore.

The bill was designed to highlight it's more marketable features in the first five years, while backloading the invasive taxes, cuts and costs so that they would kick in after the election.

ACA is being implemented in phases for a number of reasons, such as getting more primary care doctors in the market first, and yes for budget reasons too. But since you're making claims, it's your responsibility to back it up, not mine.

I notice that you lefties are all for taxing and spending as long as it's somebody else who's taxed and as long as you are the beneficiaries of the spending.

You're right, the Republicans don't tax and spend, they just spend, spend, spend. They love to play Monday morning quarterback and lie about how they could do something better AND it won't cost anything. Voters have a clear choice in 2012. I know what I prefer – Obama/Biden.

1) Obama states at the time the Affordable Care Act was being voted on that it was not a tax.

2) All Democrats followed stating this was not a tax.

3) Gets to the Supreme Court and the Federal Government argues this IS a tax and falls under the taxable authority of the Federal Government.

4) Supreme Court agrees and states this IS a tax and the Federal Government can levy taxes.

5) Mitt Romney and the Republicans repeat the SAME thing the Federal Government argued and the Supreme Court confirmed that this is indeed a tax.

6) Now Democrats state this is NOT a tax.

So tell me again how the Democrats do not lie directly to the face of the american people? Tell me again how Democrats are FOR the middle class?

When the population becomes so unintelligent that their own Democrat politicians lie directly to their face and they are not smart enough to recognize they have just been lied to then there is no possibility of saving what once was this great nation.............

Goodbye freedoms and hello tyranny.........

Roy

The short answer to what Mick is trying to say is that he doesn't have a clue. Nor do anyone of Comrade Obama's other useful, "citizens", who come on here and deride Mr. Romney for saying that while he disagrees with the ruling, He respects the decision of the Supreme Court, unlike Noble leader who makes up or ignores laws as He pleases, and these good citizens look the other way because He's their guy! but they haven't even stopped to think, Hey, exactly what kind of health care am I going to get? NOBODY EVER ASKED!, and the fact that it is a TAX, which EVERYBODY MUST PAY, NO MATTER HOW HIGH IT GOES has escaped Them,it could be just aspirin and footpowder,They don't know, and the fact that They are giving Their Money for Their Health Care to the same people who have done such a great job of taking care of Their Social Security funds,is really funny,They're probably gonna keep laughing till They cry.

Bitterhawk Obama has always stated it was a penalty.

Wrong! The administration argued it was a tax in front of the Supreme Court because they knew that the mandate would not be upheld under the Commerce Clause. BTW, it was not.

They did not argue it was a tax, they argued the penalty can be collected under the tax law in Laue of the commerce clause. Stop twisting what people say and stick to the truth, don't be a etcha sketch like your Master is.

Brenda if you were were any dumber you'd be a rock. Of course they argued it was a tax. When you lie you just look stupid

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/07/02/wh-chief-of-staff-obamacare-not-a-tax-even-if-our-own-lawyers-said-it-was-or-something/

The US Supreme Court has defined it as a tax. It's a tax. The individual mandate is not the only "tax" in the law. There are 21 total taxes. The biggest one to impact the middle class is the "cadillac plan" tax. If your plan costs more than a "determined" amount, it will be taxed as income.

The good news is that since it's a tax, it can be changed through simple majority through reconciliation in the US Senate.

DB Akron Comment collapsed by the community

Virginia Democrat

Those electoral counts are based with a majority of registered voters. If you want to know who wins, you need to look at only the Likely Voter Polls.

As of 2 weeks ago and still today, Obama 266, Romney 266 with Iowa an exact tie.

Registered voter is what could happen, if all the registered voters go to the poll on election day. Likely voter is people saying "we are voting".

ignoring that component is causing many people to delude themselves about Obama's chances

*******************************************************

I SUGGEST you revisit your info

AS OF July 4th, among "LIKELY VOTERS" Obama has a 11 point lead, 53 to 42

http://www.gallup.com/poll/111124/Gallup-Daily-Likely-Voters-Traditional.aspx

ignorance. nothing more. your arguements are that romneys state had this before so it had to be a tax. read the article. he did not say anything about his state being a tax or not. so what the f are you all talking about? obama is the one who said all this. also calling mass. health care on romney is a joke. this was kennedys crap all along. what a joke. keep up with your ignorance and conspiricy theories. then vote this horrible waste back again and f things up even more.

Tax, penalty, fee, who gives a s&#t what they call it. This takeover of healthcare will wreck this country and ruin the middle class, unless you happen to be an union member.

You Obama cheerleaders and Big Government fans, are idiots. You need to realize that the same trolls you deal with at the IRS, DMV, USPS, TSA, and countless other government agencies, will be making decisions for you that your life may depend on. You need to look at what is actually in this law, the power the Feds will have. You need to look at Canada, European nations and other places this crap has been tried and study the results. This headlong rush to Socialism, and the desire to give up your liberties for stuff you think is free, causes me to be pessimistic about the future of my country. This sideshow hack from Chicago, and his flunkies, are destroying this nation and the brain dead people who support him and the gutless, cowardly Repubs are allowing it to happen.

Romney....ever the etch a sketch Flip Flopper!........Next time he is caught hiring illegal aliens he will say he hired "offshore labor". Next time he is asked about putting his dog on the roof of his car and driving for hrs, he will say his dog was riding on the "oberservation deck." Next time he talks about the Ryan plan that gives more tax breaks for the rich and makes middle class pay 20% more to pay for his tax breaks he will call it "investing in jobs." Vote Romney for a worser tomorrow today!

Obama/Biden 2012...............Clinton 2016

It isn't a tax in the usual sense, that's for sure. For starters, if you have insurance like the majority of residents of this country do, then it not only isn't a tax but doesn't even effect you at all. Regardless of what label you want to stick on it, I like the idea of encouraging the idiots out there to get health insurance, and if it takes a monetary penalty/tax/fee, I'm all for it. The fact that it irks the bejeezuz out of conservatives is just a bonus.

Wow, it looks like the liberals all got the email- "it's just like Romney's plan" blah blah blah. Obama thought he could make himself a legend by trying to come up with healthcare reform, but then let Pelousy and Reid take over and made it a clusterf^$k. Now he is instructing the minions to push it as Romney's plan. What a failure.

Romney in 2012- the end of an error

I don't know why these posts were collapsed:

GT-2021701 Comment collapsed by the community

A tax or a fee. What's the difference? Its like tthe old beer commercial:

LESS FILLING - TASTES GREAT

LESS FILLING - TASTES GREAT

Obama/Biden 2012

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Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL Comment collapsed by the community

Poor Team Willard!

Always in a perpetual state of confusion! lol

One hand never seems to know what the other is doing...

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tonybeeerm Comment collapsed by the community

Look at the crowd Willard is talking to. Nothing but white folk, grey haired white folk at that. Can't win with just that anymore. As Dandy Don Meredith used to sing on MNF "Turn out the lights, the party's over......"

Anywho... dave20121

Aside from confusion between the mandate penalty and the way ACA is funded, of the 21 taxes only 12 are worth talking about -- taxes on the Health Care Industrial Complex, tanning salons, etc.

Though I very much dislike Mitch McConnell, that is not to say he doesn't know a thing or two. He says it is MUCH harder to undo a law than to stop it in the first place.

Romney CAN'T repeal ACA on Day 1 - that's a blatant lie. Now let's look at Congress. For Republicans to get enough seats in the Senate for a simple majority of 51, Romney needs to win the election. You can look at the math on Romney winning, but assuming he wins, and the GOP/TP has 51 votes, can they -- WILL they try to de-fund ACA with reconciliation? Are they really going to get rid of the many parts of ACA that are already in effect and that are popular?

Then, in order for Teapublicans to pitch the "repeal" part, they will have to sell their "replace" part. I've looked at their replace part (HR 3000, 3962) -- not to mention Paul Ryan's voucher for seniors to purchase insurance in the private sector (riiight, like that could happen) and they don't have a credible plan. In fact, all of it is Race to the Bottom quackery, or will cost more than ACA with less benefits.

Rightwingers, you should recognize a ploy to raise campaign funds and to gin up the base for votes when you see it. The GOP/TP and Romney are LYING to you big time.

Let's take a look at the Romney plan.......oh oh!

Romney has a plan?

Romney has a long term plan alright...and that plan is not to have a plan, and to not talk about his plan of not having a plan, because every plan that Romney planned, was not the plan, that he previously had planned. The plans he did have were also the plans he did not have before he said they are his plans. The plans he didn't have were the plans he said he had when he needed to have plans because he had no plans.

Prresident Obama/Biden 2012....you can plan on that!

@True Patriot#1.109: Great post as usual. I would though, remind you of another very important element here. Since the SC ruling on the A.C.A. an amazing amount of people are reading It, and loving It. Course there are those who dismiss its fruit as forbidden, relative to "free enterprise" and other claptrap. Most however, once they understand the real beneficial gains, quickly dismiss the reputed horrors that are so glaringly absent the bill within Its totality. The more the general populace knows about the A.C.A., the more they like it. Bet you, if polled a week from now, most Americans will give a joyous nod to this act. Must note here; whomever does such polling would have to be other than Rasmussen, and others, who report up as down, and vice versa. Regards my Friend

Also, there are other examples of being taxed for not purchasing something, like if you don't purchase a home, you don't get the write-off but still pay for the cost passed on in the rent. If you look at tax credits you see a lot of penalty for not purchasing something, energy efficient products, etc.

These are not examples of tax laws that were written with the express intent of penalizing somebody for not purchasing something as is the case with the ACA, but rather amendments to the existing tax law to reward somebody for purchasing something. In my opinion, all tax loopholes should be eliminated and we should go to a simpler but still progressive tax system where there are absolutely no exceptions to paying the tax rate at your specific income level. My guess is that the majority of us would actually see a decrease in our effective tax rate.

Trying to pass off somebody else's tax break as a penalty to those of us who don't qualify for it reminds me of the liberal arguement that tax cuts are "costs" or "spending". A tax cut does not "cost" the government a dime, it is simply a decrease in their revenue. Also, I have a hard time feeling exceedingly grateful for being allowed to keep what was rightfully mine to begin with.

But since you're making claims, it's your responsibility to back it up, not mine.

Actually, I was responding to your claim, remember? And maybe I missed it, but where did you back this up?

In regard to ACA, the tax penalties will only apply to 1% of the population, to the Health Care Industrial Complex, Cadillac policies, and a luxury-type tax on tanning salons. That's it -- nothing, nada, zilch paid by the middle class!

Finally:

Voters have a clear choice in 2012. I know what I prefer – Obama/Biden.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results".-Albert Einstein

He flip flops more than a fish named John Kerry would flip flop on a dock. You can't really paint yourself into many more corners before there are going to be two opposing soundbytes coming out of your mouth for virtually every issue at stake!

Supreme Court ACA Decision

Obamacare is unconstitutional under the Commerce Clause. It states the government cannot make you buy something you don’t want. Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan all agreed. They would never have agreed if that was the basis to strike the law in total. This is a 9-0 decision declaring it unconstitutional. This prevents the government from abusing these in the future.

Obamacare is unconstitutional under the “necessary and proper” clause. This only applies to the “enumerated powers” in the Constitution. Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor and Kagan all agreed. They would never have agreed if that was the basis to strike the law in total. This is a 9-0 decision declaring it unconstitutional. This prevents the government from abusing these in the future.

The taxing law provides the Constitutionality for the law. Everyone agrees the government has this power (ex. Mortgage deduction for federal income taxes). This tax now applies to everyone, even the poor. This law now becomes a budgetary issue that can be voted on in the Senate by a 50+1 majority rather than 60 votes to stop a filibuster.

The punitive rule that takes away money from states that do not expand Medicaid as required in Obamacare was voted down 7-2 (Kagan and Breyer joined this decision). This prevents further extortion the Federal government uses to force states to do things they don’t want to.

Because the law has no severability clause, striking the Medicaid mandate as unconstitutional the whole bill should have been struck down.

This decision strengthens the limitations of the commerce clause and the necessary and proper clause by a unanimous decision.

Obamacare, and thus Obama, raised taxes on the poor and middle class.

Converted Obamacare into a tax program repealable with 51, rather than 60, votes. It must be a tax.

Now, having said that, what amazes me daily about Liberals/Progressives is their incessant fantasy that government can somehow do anything efficiently and affordably. We all understand the century long intrusion and usurpation into the Constitution from FDR’s “Revolution of 1937” leading to his massive empowerment of the Federal government to LBJ’s collusion with his “Great Society”. All of these are the cause of the burden we are seeing with a National Debt soon to exceed $16 trillion and, more horrifying, a $120 trillion Unfunded Liability. All of this criminal activity will unfortunately take decades to correct. With pathetically anemic growth of 1.7%, manufacturing declining, a growing trade deficit of over $600 billion and consumer confidence plummeting the outlook is menacing. As the European Union continues its collapse, as our largest trading partner, the future is even bleaker.

But more importantly is the incredible amount of waste, fraud, abuse and corruption (WFAC) in our government. Let’s just focus on health care as this is the topic du jour.

Exiting Director of CMS, Donald Berwick, gave us these grim facts about our health care system. 20 percent to 30 percent of health spending is “waste” that yields no benefit to patients, and that some of the needless spending is a result of onerous, archaic regulations enforced by his agency. If his estimate is right, Medicare and Medicaid could save $150 billion to $250 billion a year by eliminating waste, which he defines as “activities that don’t have any value.”

This incredible finding is not unique to health care which is 1/6^th of our GDP. Government auditors spent the past five years examining all federal programs and found that 22 percent of them–costing taxpayers a total of $123 billion annually–fail to show any positive impact on the populations they serve. This is further supported by the Congressional Budget Office publishing a “Budget Options” series identifying more than $140 billion in potential spending cuts. It gets even better with Examples from multiple Government Accountability Office (GAO) reports of wasteful duplication including 342 economic development programs; 130 programs serving the disabled; 130 programs serving at-risk youth; 90 early childhood development programs; 75 programs funding international education, cultural, and training exchange activities; and 72 safe water programs at a cost of over $100 billion. But I digress.

Accepting a middle of the road estimate of Berwick’s proposed cost of $200 billion a year, eradication of this WFAC could produce $5,000 of health insurance premiums for 40 million Americans. No tax, penalty, mandate or other gibberish would be needed.

Despite this massive amount of WFAC in our government Liberals/Progressives still insist on their adolescent class warfare against the mean, nasty, rich, fat-cats of the world. Instead of cleaning up the corruption that is obviously in the hundreds of billions of taxpayers’ dollars every year, they still want to steal more hard earned money from American citizens. This can only be explained as delusional. Combining all the above costs, we can save over $560 billion annually or $5.6 trillion over 10 years!

The only rational explanation of why Liberals/Progressives insist on this self-destructive path is a horrible indoctrination that mimics disease.

Mac Forrester -- Thanks, and would the forbidden fruit be berries by any chance? I'm still LMAO about that post. The GOP/TP would steal our buckets, and our pots to piss in.

Bitterhawk -- For the most part you don't parrot rightwing squawking points, so I'll give ya that. And it's agreed that all tax loopholes should be eliminated and folks should pay their taxes according their income and rate, period -- including Mitt Romney and the 1% paying appropriate tax rates for capital gains. I sure am envious of those Prius owners who can drive in the HOV lane, and those rebates folks are getting for solar panels. ; ]

And according to most economists and even rightwingers like Alan Simpson, tax cuts are a tax expenditure, which represents loss of revenue, and therefore do NOT pay for themselves. The Cato Institute started that conspiracy theory.

In regard to said claim, here is your comment in full:

Dude, if you really believe this, you're in for a rude awakening come 2014. The bill was designed to highlight it's more marketable features in the first five years, while backloading the invasive taxes, cuts and costs so that they would kick in after the election. If you don't believe me, do a little research.

To which I replied that it is your responsibility to detail what those backloaded "invasive taxes, cuts and costs" are instead of telling me to do the research.

Insanity is electing the same Party that got us into this mess in the first place -- President Barack Obama -- 2012!

To keep his promise to the American people concerning no new taxes in any way for 95% of Americans, the President needs to ask congress to immediately repeal the health care law. The President needs to do what ever it takes to eliminate this new tax and all other additional taxes that are included in the law. All hail the Chief!

JimSpence -- For the most part your post admits to the mixed rulings in which justices appointed by Democratic presidents sided with conservative justicess, and to the victories in the ACA ruling for the rightwing. So perhaps Justice Roberts is not the "wobbly" traitor some Drama Queens like Glenn Beck claim.

But other parts of the post are re-litigating what is now the law ("This is a 9-0 decision declaring it unconstitutional" -- wow) or a discussion of well-known disagreements in ideology about the role of government. I disagree that progressives think government is perfect, or that capitalists are just "mean, nasty, rich, fat-cats." Manichean black-and-white thinking is what the rightwing does.

At the same time, there are things government does better (like going to the moon), and there are certain kinds of capitalism that are not good (venture capitalism versus vulture capitalism). Here's an example of what the private sector shouldn't be doing -- Judicial Corrections Services. Look into this if you want to learn about a major SNAFU. A balance must always be found.

The rest is hyperbole and personal opinion. A big difference between conservatives and liberals is group think practices, such as watching FOX News exclusively, going to church on Sundays, exchanging chain Emails, etc. There is no better example of indoctrination than the Religious Right that starts teaching Flat Earth Society anti-intellectualism to their children the day they are born.

Will Haas -- Hahaha! Health Care Reform is NOT a tax hike on the middle class. Even if it was, by your logic Scott Walker of Wisconsin should have asked the state legislators to repeal the striping of union bargaining rights, because that was not what he campaigned on. The president did not sign an oath to outside lobbyist Grover Norquist either. WTF?

It is a tax, it is a penalty, no, a tax, no a penalty!! To me it is great and wonderful. A start down the right road. It is not perfect but this half a loaf is much better than no bread. I remember that when Mana fell from heaven people did not know what to do with it either. Everyone questioned it and many did not appreciate it and therefore misused it. My elderly parents are already out of the doughnut hole and do not need their children's help to buy medicine. Mitt is fixing to take away their independence on day one of his presidency. A pox on him and all the republican governors, Scott, and Gindall, and all others who have decided to block the law.

Crosstime59

"Mitt has it exactly backwards! For those of us who've been seeing our insurance rates increase due to those who go to the hospital without insurance, we see this as a TAX BREAK!!! Finally I no longer have to pay for those without health insurance - those who've been getting their health care paid with MY dimes!!!"

And now you'll be paying for the subsidies of over 50% of the population instead. Do you really think you'll save any money? And don't forget you will now be required to purchase insurance with no limits on what they can charge you for it.

True Patriot

So, let me get this straight. Our criminal government wastes half a trillion dollars a year, and by the way I have over 400 more examples of WFAC, and you Liberals just discount that as hyperbole? Now with the added $1.76 trillion dollar cost of Obamacare we can anticipate, at minimum, another $200 billion to $300 billion in WFAC and this is acceptable to your Liberals? And of course your solution is to just tax those that are more successful than you to satisfy your envy. The fact that our own government admits that 22 percent of our usually useless social programs–costing taxpayers a total of $123 billion annually–fail to show any positive impact on the populations they serve is somehow OK in your convoluted thinking. Your attempt at deflection is humorous as you obviously have no defense for the fact that our government is not only too big, it's also dysfunctional and unsustainable.

Now, in your previous post (#1.115) you parroted the other typical Liberal convoluted thought about eliminating all loopholes. This is once again a lame effort to somehow punish those evil rich bogeymen you Liberals all fear so badly. I'll play. Just which "loopholes" do you suggest we eliminate? Obviously you must have a list of them. Playing into your fantasy even if we eliminated all loopholes, which we all know are just ambiguities in the written law, we would have to eliminate virtually all of the 17,000 pages of tax code. Even if we play along with this delusion how will you prevent our criminals in Congress from creating new loopholes? If for some reason you believe this can be monitored let’s remember a few facts.

Between 1986 and 2005 Congress passed over 14,400 amendments to the tax code, this equates to almost 3 changes every day for 19 straight years. There have been about 4,428 tax code changes in the last 10 years. There were approximately 580 changes in 2010 alone. Do you remember being aware of two new tax code changes occurring everyday in 2010? I doubt it.

I'm sure you're also aware of the fact that regardless of our tax rates, revenues as a percentage of GDP, has been an almost constant 18.6% for all tax receipts and about 8% of income tax receipts. So how will changing those tax rates improve revenues?

I know you Liberals are consumed with your class warfare campaign, romanticizing some "fair share", "equal playing field", "fair wage" nonsense. I don't see it happening with our current tax system, irrational regulatory avalanche and division of the nation by Barrack Hussein.

"I love this country," Romney said. "I love the people who have built this country."

F.U. Mitt, you draft dodging, deferment seeking son-of-a-b*tch.....the only command you're fit for is Commander-In-Queef and how not to serve your country by running away and hiding in France, you scaredy pussy cat you!!

OBAMA/BIDEN 2012

Kevin Q,

Did you exhibit the same outrage about the draft-dodging, deferment seeking son-of-a-b*tch Joe "Bite Me" Biden?

Life is easier when you are an Etch-O-Sketch, ...a malleable chunk of Play-Doh.

So, what's your opinion now?

So, what's your opinion now?

So, what's your opinion now?

So, what's your opinion now?

He'll eventually/occasionally be right, just like a broken clock is right twice a day.

Man, the Pubs are really desperate if this represents their best.

Romney: "Health care mandate is a tax."

QuigleyGal: "Romney is a flip-flopping hypocrite."

End of story. Thank you.

The only time Romney lies is when he opens his mouth.

He claims the majority ruled it a tax. Not so. The majority opinion was that the ACA was constitutional. The written majority opinion, written by Roberts, called the penalty a tax as justification for upholding it. The rest of the majority provided a dissenting opinion against the tax opinion, favoring justification due to the commerce clause.

Only ONE justice called it a tax.

But regardless of what you want to call it, IF, after making health care insurance affordable to all, and IF people that can afford insurance choose to not protect themselves and play craps with MY money and THEIR health, a penalty seems more than fair. The penalty is smaller than with Romney-care, by the way. The penalty os only meant as an incentive for people to act responsively.

Bankruptcy by health care (the uninsured) is the most common reason we have for bankruptcy. This fixes that.

JimSpence

True Patriot

So, let me get this straight. Our criminal government wastes half a trillion dollars a year, and by the way I have over 400 more examples of WFAC, and you Liberals just discount that as hyperbole?

*********************************************************

EXACTLY WHERE ARE THESE "EXAMPLES"...As i read your posts, I read these supposed bits of fact without so much as a LINK to what you claim..NOT ONE

********************************************

THEN THIS...........

And of course your solution is to just tax those that are more successful than you to satisfy your envy.

***********************************

AND YET, THE "MORE SUCCESSFUL" are in part "more successful" because of the LOWEST TAX RATE SEEN IN DECADES....

WOW, how about that....{ a REAL source}

Historical and Future Federal Estate Tax Exemptions and Rates

Year
Estate Tax Exemption
Top Estate Tax Rate

1997
$600,000
55%

1998
$625,000
55%

1999
$650,000
55%

2000
$675,000
55%

2001
$675,000
55%

2002
$1,000,000
50%

2003
$1,000,000
49%

2004
$1,500,000
48%

2005
$1,500,000
47%

2006
$2,000,000
46%

2007
$2,000,000
45%

2008
$2,000,000
45%

2009
$3,500,000
45%

*2010
$5,000,000 or $0
35% or 0%

2011
$5,000,000
35%

**2012
$5,120,000
35%

***************************************************

Between 1986 and 2005 Congress passed over 14,400 amendments to the tax code, this equates to almost 3 changes every day for 19 straight years. There have been about 4,428 tax code changes in the last 10 years. There were approximately 580 changes in 2010 alone. Do you remember being aware of two new tax code changes occurring everyday in 2010? I doubt it.

************************************************************

AGAIN, LAUGHABLE "INFO"

Changes to the tax code means more or less loopholes???????

YOU certainly arent listing which is which, and do YOU KNOW?...I DOUBT IT

To insinuate that the "changes" you cite are for the better is a joke, and shows what a sheeple YOU are for the GOP.....

As for the rest of your garbage you posted, its just that, GARBAGE

ALSO marginal tax rates are much lower

http://allfinancialmatters.com/2008/02/27/the-middle-class-and-taxes-under-clinton-and-bush/

notacommie-1732574

Tax, penalty, fee, who gives a s&#t what they call it. This takeover of healthcare will wreck this country and ruin the middle class, unless you happen to be an union member.

Well, to be exact, the ACA ISN'T a takeover of healthcare. If it was, the government would be distributing healthcare; under the ACA, the private sector is still doing that.

You Obama cheerleaders and Big Government fans, are idiots. You need to realize that the same trolls you deal with at the IRS, DMV, USPS, TSA, and countless other government agencies, will be making decisions for you that your life may depend on. You need to look at what is actually in this law, the power the Feds will have. You need to look at Canada, European nations and other places this crap has been tried and study the results. This headlong rush to Socialism, and the desire to give up your liberties for stuff you think is free, causes me to be pessimistic about the future of my country. This sideshow hack from Chicago, and his flunkies, are destroying this nation and the brain dead people who support him and the gutless, cowardly Repubs are allowing it to happen.

Why do you right-wing idiots keep blasting Europe for their "socialism???" THEY ARE NOT SOCIALIST. They have private industries in manufacturing, finance, high-tech, etc. Socialism=NO PRIVATE SECTOR. And by the way, Europe is NOT suffering because of socialism. It is suffering because the recession hit them hard and they had to bail out their banks WHILE servicing the needs of their unemployed citizens. Ireland and Spain had surpluses and low debt before the recession, while Italy was steadily reducing their debt. Unfortunately, they are suffering now because the Germans are forcing them to go into austerity in return for bailouts, which is ruining their economies and putting them DEEPER into debt. Austerity doesn't work. You righties ought to lay off the commie-bashing kool-aid and start realizing that America is NOT perfect; we have problems that many countries don't have. We should work to adopt foreign ideas to improve our system, while adding our own tweaks to make it fit. We should be willing to accept ideas that may not be part of our beliefs but still work, not totally adverse to it. THAT is the problem with America.

OBAMA BIDEN 2012

Romney and the POTUS can call it whatever they want but the bottom line is that it is a tax. The SCOTUS has ruled and the law of the land now says it is a tax. The POTUS knew it was a tax all along as demonstrated by his argument in front of the Supreme Court that it was a tax. In other words, he knew he was lying to the American people when he claimed it was not a tax. He lied to get it through.....

Rightwingers (e.g., victorkingdom) are confusing President Obama's promise not pass tax hikes on the middle class versus the SCOTUS ruling that congress has the power to tax -- Along with confusion between the mandate, which is a penalty via the tax code that applies only to some folks who can afford insurance while many others are exempt, versus the way ACA is funded. ACA is NOT funded by taxes on the middle class except those who will pay a luxury tax at tanning salons, and that is those individual's choice.

True Patriot,

I am not confusing anything but you are skirting the point:

1). President Obama said as he was selling it to the American people that it WAS NOT a tax (see Stephanopolis interview). In turn he:

2). Had his Solicitor General argue in front of the Supreme Court that it WAS a tax.

I understand the taxes to who and what (though thanks for clarifying for me who "can afford it"). The most basic fundamental point that you are confused on is that he blatently lied to the American people that it was not a tax. HIS WORDS, NOBODY ELSES. Face it man, he looked us all in the eye and outright lied. He should have been honest with the voters. I despise liars as should you.....you're better than that, man.

Jim Spence-

Okay, I agree that there is waste in the government, but first of all, I'd like to see the sites (not that I don't trust you, it's just that you have to be sure). Secondly, even if we remove 80% of the waste (which is at best, since waste isn't all that easy to eliminate completely), that still leaves us with a deficit of roughly $2.7 trillion. Not a lot, but still a long way to go for us to balance the budget. We liberal/progressives often remind ourselves of how taxes are extremely low; the lowest in half a century. Those low tax rates have not only lead to chronic deficits, but to a massive rise in income inequality, which can dampen economic growth or lead to an accelerated business cycle (I'd advise reading Paul Krugman's End this Depression NOW to find out more). Essentially, we'd like to balance tax and government policy to reverse this trend of the wealth and income gap getting larger, and hopefully lead to a more (although not completely) equal economic environment.

Now if I were president, I would send Congress a tax reform bill. In it, I would add two income brackets to the current system and change the rates for each bracket: anyone making over $400,000 pays gets a 45% tax rate; over $320,000 pay 39.6%; $250,000 pay 33%; $180,000 pay 27%; $125,000 pay 21%; $95,000 pay 18%; $75,000 pay 12%; and $40,000 and below pay 8%. Capital gains is taxes at roughly 24%, along with dividends; carried interest is treated as income; corporate tax rate is 25%; gift tax is 45% for anything over $10,000; and estate tax is 50% for any estate over $840,000. Anyone in the top two income brackets must pay at least 85% of their marginal rate including deductions; anyone in the next two pays at least 75% of their marginal rate; the next two brackets must pay at least 67% of their marginal rate; and the bottom two should pay at least 50% of the marginal rate. Capital gains, dividends, gifts, and estates will have flat taxes. Now, my fellow Republicans, is this something we can agree upon??? If there is any qualms to my proposal, be welcome to say so.

OBAMA BIDDEN 2012

But if you don't drive or have kids you still pay taxes for roads bridge and schools. We all pay for a better society.We have no choice there. The health of all is important, and the fact here is that only those who do not take responsibly and but health insurance will pay the fine tax or whatever it is. No it is easy for you not to have to pay it and save the rest of us from paying for you. So ok, it is a freeloader sponging on others tax.

Hey amerigal, do you have health insurance now? If so, you do not pay this fine. If you don't, the rest of us have been paying your way. No more!

amerigal

Well if you have insurance, guess what you not getting taxed, you will not be able freeload no longer. You might not be able not to drive all your live and get away not having auto insurance. But you can't get away without having health issues, that will come eventually and then who is going to pay for your bills, when you can't? He didn't lie. National Debt paid? how? Your republican trolls caused a lot of this debt and now you whining? Romney did the same thing in Massachussetts? so what his excuse?

amerigal,

Your analogy and logic does not work.

You are a human being, you will sometime in your life get sick, need medicial care, and like all of us you will face your own death someday....

In the meantime, live life, take care of your heath, and make good choices.

Norman Maslov

Hey amerigal, do you have health insurance now? If so, you do not pay this fine. If you don't, the rest of us have been paying your way. No more

Way to tell UNamericangirl what she doesnt want to hear. The mandate was a conservative idea to begin with (Heratige Foundation) and now that Obamas adopted it its bad....fning teabagger

amerigal, why would you not want to have medical coverage? What are you really trying to say?

amerigal, think of it this way. If you currently have health insurance you are paying for those that don't. You are paying for something you personally have not "purchased" (i.e. - the services for the uninsured at the ER). YOU are being charged.

The PPACA is designed to get some of those freeloaders off of your insurance bill.

amerigal, so you are saying you do not want medical coverage? Is that your real message?

No, her real message is that she wants that commie, muslim out of her White House running back to Chicago with his tail tucked between his legs. Fat chance of that. Willard's lost the election and the Greedy One Percent will be lucky to hold the House.

@amerigal, . Barack Obama should be "forced" to pay a TAX each and every time his administration LIES to us

I tell you what, we will deduct every lie Obama has said from every lie Bush and the house have said and I bet we come out winners and still pay off the national debt and free medical for everyone. Even if we just took Bush we would be ahead.

I'll agree it's a tax.

Obama raises taxes to force insurance companies to sell insurance to those with preexisting illness, requiring them to spend 80% of what they take in on paying for care and requiring those who can afford to buy insurance but don't until they need it to do so or face a penalty.

Romney proposes eliminating the home mortgage deduction and fully taxing employer health care plans costing the average middle class taxpayer several thousand a year higher taxes to give the wealthiest including himself a huge tax break.

Tough call. raising taxes to help millions access to health care or lower the taxes on the rich and raise it on the poor to pay for it and hope something besides urine trickles down from them.

Benda wrote:

I tell you what, we will deduct every lie Obama has said from every lie Bush and the house have said and I bet we come out winners

How do we come out winners when we've been lied to for decades? You freely accept that Obama is a liar, but Bush lied more in 8 years than Obama in 3 1/2. Did I get that right? My standards are higher.

Hilarious.

This was the Republicon plan in 1993 and Romneycare in Mass.

This is a tax break break for the 99% by the way.

The difference between what Romney did and what Obama did is huge. Romney helped to minimize what a very liberal state wanted to do to itself. Obama forced liberal garbage down the throats of the majority in this country which wanted nothing to do with socialized medicine! Romney was a conservative governer in a very liberal state and managed to minimize the damage. Obama is an extremely liberal president governing over a fairly conservative country and he crammed this bill with liberal dogma and did it without listening to the people! Obama and his ilk will continue to drive this country into fiscal disaster and not really care!

Romney has run companies and states and Obama has never been an executive over anything (until now) and shows his incredible lack of knowledge on how business and general life happens! Obama is a true believer in socialism and absolutely hates anything to do with capitalism. Obama is the true believer in a "Trickle-down" economic system.... the liberals spend billions on "green energy" and increasing government and this money will "Trickle-down" to the rest of the people. The problem with this is that government is notoriously wasteful and much of the government funds are being funneled back into the Democratic Party coffers through the unions and crony capitalists who receive the government's largess!

The biggest freeloaders of all are illegal immigrants, but the liar in chief has built in protections in his tax on the middle class the ensures these freeloaders will not be denied service, or held to account for the damage they, as group/class, have perpetrated against the American worker.

1. American prisons are 33% overcrowded; 33% of convicts in U.S. prisons are illegal immigrants
2. Health-care is 33% underfunded; 33% of health-care is paid out to illegal immigrants
3. U.S. schools are 15% overcrowded; 15% of parochial school attendees are illegal immigrants

It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out what the problem is, but this president is doing everything in his power to keep this problem from being addressed. In Obama's world the 1st Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights is a far more pressing concern.

ok.. all you B&%^*ing Repugnants read the ACA bill it can be found online and it might take a few days and you must be able to read above the 7th grade level, that's why McConnell(virtile turtle) and Boner have not read it.. .. then I suggest you do some research on the SCOTUS ruling .. UNDER THE TAX LAW.. is what Roberts said.. he did not say it was a TAX nor did he say it was a penalty.. all this crap has been unleashed by the repugnants who are VERY poor losers.. so see the light and the truth or follow mcconnell, boner, romney and all those others into oblivion..

PS you do understand that every congress man or woman has the premium gold health insurance which YOU pay for since it is paid with your TAX dollars or is that different.. I think not.. contact every member of senate and house looking for those that have college aged children.. they have all jumped on to ACA since their child can stay on their policy(the one we pay for) until the child is 26

amerigal This is the first time in history we American's are being FORCED to pay a TAX if we choose NOT TO

I don't know about that one. My youngest daughter is 30, no children, not married, finished college about 6 years ago she's a "NP," I have two older children married, one 41, one 38, they have kids, but live in completely different states from where I live. No one here but my wife and I, and for some unknown reason, (sarcasm), every year for the past 12 years there's something on my homeowners property tax bill that says "SCHOOL," which promply bills us 55.9 Mills in taxes. Every year I pay it, I ask them, when are you'll going to take this off my bill, I haven't had children in schools here in 12 years. I should say, this SCHOOL TAX is more than the county, and city property taxes are....how about that, but I have no children, or grandchildren in school here.

It's worth a good laugh, but yep, I'm being "FORCED to pay a TAX" I choose NOT too.

OBAMA/BIDEN....2012!!!!

With Obamacare, insurance companies are forced to use 80 cents instead of current 50 cents per premium dollar. No longer they don't like it, not enough profits and more money actually for the people.

Oh no, they said they are going to bankruptcy at that rate because CEO no longer have millions in bonuses.

Wreck7-2195545

that's moronic

bman80

BRILLIANT !

RandyEK,

Where did you come up with those lies? A third of US prisoners are illegal immigrants?

According to a report from the DoJ (the Federal Prison Bureau does not keep statistics on how many prisoners are illegal aliens, so you definitely made that statistic up) the percentage of federal prisoners that are not legally in the US is more like 10.2%.

Also, there is no data backing up your claim that 33% of healthcare money is spent on illegals.

Can you cite any credible sources? Didn't think so. You have been marginalized. Good day.

The law passed under the "taxing" power of Congress. It was found "unconstitutional" under the commerce clause. Therefore, anything referred to as a penalty is, in fact, a tax. So what, Romney did it Massachuesetts. It's a tax there too.

Now, if I had to pay for my own healthcare, the new law would allow me to wait until I needed insurance to purchase it or I could pay 1% of my income. Since the pre-existing condition clause is no longer allowed, I can wait until I absolutely need it.

Yes...it does state that insurance companies have to show that 80% goes to providing healthcare. But, if premiums are higher, the remaining 20% will be higher.

Roughly 50% of doctors accept medicaid patients. Since there will be more people allegedly insured by their employers or because they have to purchase one through an exchange, less doctors will accept medicaid.

If your plan is considered to be a "cadillac plan"...a determined amount above a certain threshold will be taxed as income (effects mostly union employees).

Hundreds of waivers have been granted by the administration...why? If the emphasis is that everyone needs to pay their fair share, why grant waivers?

Meanwhile......Romney is trying to find someone for his VP pick. However.....Romney is not choosing his mate...It will be Norquist and Rove who call the shots. When Romney went to Trump for advice on the issue, Trump recommended Gary Bussey. Trump fired him before and Romney likes to fire people, So Gary is the likely choice. Hell he wouldn't even know he was fired so no harm to him.

Michelle Bachmann went for a ride the other day in a Chevy Corvette...now she is claiming she is being ...vetted.... for VP job.

This tax/penalty argument is a waste of time. Who cares. Get over it.

We should be talking about how many people will actually be benefiting now after the SCOTUS decision/rewrite. The CBO should have new numbers for us soon after state Govs decide which parts they are going to "opt out" on. First guesses are that only half the orig # of people will get coverage.

What a bunch of partisan clowns blogging this is a tax, that is a fee, and everyone should pay their fair share. Washington is comprised of hypocrites on both sides of the isle, and from the house to the senate and living in the White House.

Whether your political ideology wants it to be called a tax or a penalty, who cares? There are more then enough new, actual taxes in ObamaCare. In fact ObamaCare is supposedly going to be funded by one of the most convoluted tax schemes ever comprised to fund an entitlement. Taxing tanning salons, Cadillac insurance plans which most union members enjoy, investments, and the list goes on. So play games with the mandate, but everyone is going to be paying higher taxes for ObamaCare.

Never in the history of entitlements has any program come in anywhere near cost projections. ObamaCare will not be the first. The whole scheme is set up to pretend to be fully funded for the first 10 years even though benefits are being paid out for only six of them. Then all bets are off, the price of ObamaCare will skyrocket, taxes to fund it will escalate, and then we will have another massive entitlement the country cannot afford thanks to liberals that love to spend what future generations have yet to earn.

The Romney's are just a "CREEPY COUPLE" they give me the ya-yas !

I hear the Republicans want to impeach Roberts now that he has made a ruling they disagree with.

SORE LOSERS!!!

Republicans do not take defeat well. Just look at what they have done since the last presidential election. From the day the election results were official they have blocked everything they possibly could that Obama has tried to do to get this country back on track even if the whole country suffers. Bush never had that problem with the Democrats in congress although everything he did was wrong.

I see the focus on healthcare reform is everywhere but where it has needed to be since it was signed...at that time the President and Dame Pelosi said $900 billion would be needed over 10 years to pay for it. Since it was signed, that cost projection has doubled to nearly $1.8 trillion...and counting.

It has not been explained if these costs included the pricetag for thousands of new federal and state employees (and their lifetime golden pensions) or the costs for the thousands of new IRS employees that will be brought in. My guess is all the costs for the new employees will simply be added to the budgeting for general government expenses...and not be added to the total costs for the now $1.8 trillion reform. Why would expect my government to be honest with me.

I'd also guess that like the financial projections that were given when other massive federal programs were enacted...the $1.8 trillion will end up be far short of what's needed. Anyone want to guess how far off the cost projections were for the 'Medicaid' program ??? It's fairly stunning !

Funny thing....with the millions and millions of words written and spoken on this topic over the past year, the financial costs of reform have rarely even been mentioned.

Most small town governments can't even bring in an elementary school building addition in at the budget figure originally planned.

Knock-Knock....does anyone with even a sliver of grey matter believe that $1.8 trillion will be enough money to pay for what's in those 3000 pages ???

And what hasn't this issue been important ???

In Palm...

Intelligent comment "a creepy couple" that gives you the "ya-yas".

I know, I know....Barack Obama is the finest president who ever lived and Mrs. Obama is the most beautiful woman ever born on this planet.

And while Bill & Hillary Clinton...whom you learned EVERYTHING about, didn't "creep" you out...the Romneys, whom you know nothing about, "creep" you out into your "ya-ya" territory.

So Mitt! Couldn't every American say that "I love this country!" "I love the people who built it!" So where are your plans? They don't exist or you still haven't decided how to use them to your political advantage. Not for Americas. Cultist need to check with the cult first before deciding! Right!

star...

You need a new comedy writer.

Doctor Logic,

The labels do not change a thing.

The Affordable Heath care Act is the law of the land.

What is the effect of the mandate?

According to the NYT 6/30/12:

"Beginning in 2014, the law expands Medicaid to cover people who are under 65 and earn income up to 133% of the federal poverty level, or $30,657 for a family of four in 2012.

Families who make between 100 and 400% of the federal poverty level-or $92,200. for a family of four in 2012-will be elifible for tax credits for insurance pals that are pruchased through state-run exchanges."

If consumers do not have insurance by 2014, they would owe $95.00 or 1% of taxable income in 2015."

Happy Fourth of July to all my fellow citizens.

Stay cool and stay safe .... watch those fireworks in the sky tonight.

The media do exactly what the Republicans want them to and that is to keep their talking points in the public discussion

Hilarious.

This was the Republicon plan in 1993 and Romneycare in Mass.

This is a tax break break for the 99% by the way.

ask all those republicans who are against ACA if they presently have health for them and their families.. it's called a premium gold policy.. perhaps that's the thing we shold fight for the same coverage they have.. that would work

Romney wants to Repeal and Replace ACA.

If you read his plan, I think you will be pleasantly surprise.

Basically, you write the word CARE on a piece of paper. Then you take the etch-a-sketch that says "Obama," shake it up, and write "Romney" and put it back next to the paper.

Presto-chango, Obamacare is Romneycare!

Obamney 2012. No HOPE for CHANGE

The tax increases from 2014 at $95/person or 1% of taxable income to $695/person or 2.5% of taxable incomeby 2016.

I'm sure it won't put economic pressure on anyone that currently does not have health insurance. That was why it was so important for the penalty to remain part of the legislation. Because of its irrelevance.

It will be interesting to see.

Call the "mandate" to have insurance a tax, penalty or swiss cheese........does it really matter when the mandate was really a Republican idea before it became part of the ACA sponsored by a black president in the white house....and THEN Republicans hated this TAX...........is that the problem you think?

The number of Republican politicians who have their <26 year old kids on their insurance plans ("Obamacare") is hilarious. What hypocrites. They have NO credibility, or integrity whatsoever.

Hilarious.

This was the Republicon plan in 1993 and Romneycare in Mass.

This is a tax break break for the 99% by the way.

Mittens has changed his stance twice on this issue. Maybe he will get it right this time.

Judge Roberts defined the Insurance plan as a Tax now all the Republicans want to call it a tax. OK it is a tax. Now what.

I assume we go back to the supreme court and claim that the House and Senate and the President did not sign the Bill BECAUSE it was a tax. Get real. Lets ignore the $1.5 Billion the Insurance Companies have to give back to the policy holders because they were ripping them off with excessive profits. 80/20 That money is refunded to Policy Holders NOT the uninsured that ACA will cover.

Republicans get real. Thier may be a few more problems with the ACA so lets wait and challenge the LAW on all the errors including the typing errors. What a sad state of affairs our House of Representitives has become. Useless to American Society.

The 80/20 refunds money to the employERS that provided the insurance. It can then go to the employees or be used to "offset premiums."

It doesn't go directly to the employees.

Reaching across the isle...

I hope they used the right font size on the bill. You know how pissy those Pubs can be.

Viewer_Ready, You stated,

I expect Obama to self destruct.

His timer is already at the critical stage.

Osama said the same thing.

Hilarious.

This was the Republicon plan in 1993 and Romneycare in Mass.

This is a tax break break for the 99% by the way.

I agree. I would expect the Republicans to try and hold as few debates as posible because like you I expect the President to be much more informed and knowledegable concerning the debate subjects. I aslos assume the moderators will give both parties the questions so that the Republicans will not look like complete ass holes.

I expect the President to reference some of the stupid things that Mittens has said concerning women's rights, abortion, and job loss's in Massachetts during his Governorship.

@SuperPAC12

Mitt was waiting for Koch and Grover to tell him what he thinks. He won't make a move without their blessing. It's sad and pathetic. His masters have already said that they just want somebody who will sign the bills they tell him to. Well, Mitt fits that bill.

This guy is such a loser but the tea party hates President Obama so much that they will vote for him, in spite of the fact that he will harm America.

I am so looking forward to the debates, it will be really difficult for Mittens to just spout his talking points, give no details and still look presidential. It will finally come out that the guy has no new ideas, just wants to go back to Bush policies. Most Americans are not idiots like he seems to think we are. Not all of us watch Fox Notnews so we actually do know what is going on out there. Mittens is going to get a wake up call when Obama wipes the floor with him.

Stockpiling,

It is your personal responsibility. In lieu of getting insurance, YOU THEN PAY on your income in 2015: either $95.00 or 1% of your taxable income.

Hope you have weathered all the storms we have had in MN.

The thing you can trust in MN is that the weather will get your attention.

Stockpiling, it is only gone if you are a freeloader. If you can afford insurance and don't want it, then when you inevitably get sick you are making us pay for your medical expenses. If you have insurance, you are currently paying for some other freeloaders medical costs, and I would think that you would not like that form of socialism. I know I don't like having to pay part of my premiums for people who are too cheap to pay for themselves, when they can afford it.

If you have coverage already, then no tax or penalty will be taken from your wallet, so nothing will be "gone".

In 2016, the penalty increases to $695 or 2.5% of taxable income

Medicare for all. Their overhead is MUCH less than the 20% that insurance companies are JUST NOW being limited to. If an insurance company wants to offer premium packages, knock themselves out. I'm just tired of buying yachts for their big wigs.

Sane Central

Medicare for all. Their overhead is MUCH less than the 20% that insurance companies are JUST NOW being limited to. If an insurance company wants to offer premium packages, knock themselves out. I'm just tired of buying yachts for their big wigs.

THANK YOU. Private healthcare providers spend about 26 cents out of every dollar on administrative costs, while Medicare and Medicaid pay around 4 cents. Paradoxically, the best way to fix the fiscal problems for Medicare is to expand it while dealing with the costs of medical malpractice and defensive medicine. I for one would rather have "socialist medicine" than private hospitals profiting off of human suffering.

OBAMA BIDEN 2012

Looking "forward to it"??

As a small business owner have your researched YOUR cost that will be incurred?

Yes I have and we all have healthcare now and there will be more options. Here is California we already got our rebaters from Blue Shield. $250--455 each. And my costs will level off since I don;t have to be higher costs for those with pre existing conditions that skew us higher. And I will get batter tax break for the coverage I already pay. I have studied it very carefully. Won't have to pay more for those r=freeloaders who are not insured

Somewhere you must have missed something or miscalculated.

Let us know if it works out for you.

Anyway you look at it, this law makes ALL of us pay for slackers in the form of increased tax.

Yes I am. Ten of us are already covered and it already skews a bit high for some because of their pre existing conditions. I have researched this and spoke with our carrier. That will no longer be the case when the full law kicks in. We already got rebates 250-455 each from Blue Shield which I put back int their health plans. Having free prescreening also will cut costs for future more expensive health situations. Also my CPA showed me new small business tax benefits in the new law for us. This is a great law and my 21 year old son can stay on our plan for five more years.

Norman,

Thank you for real life experience as a small business owner with a family.

Educating people about the real effect of this law needs to be done.

Most of the MSM do not want to do the heavy lifting of explaining the law. Too easy to just explore the sound bites of politicians

@floridamom1. Our problems here in California like yours in Florida, are a result of the mortgage mess and drastic depression we all went through but we are slowly digging ourselves out. Unlike Florida, California embraced the Healthcare act two years ago and and even last week announced the great progress of getting the exchanges ready for the end of next year and get health costs for all citizens which will reduce other costs. Governors in Florida, Texas and several other Red states are ignoring it and will be left in the dust. If they don't get it together, then the federal government will step in to help so many of those in those states without coverage. "You can't get anything for free" you say ? But many freeloaders have been getting free healthcare for many years. Many who could afford it. Now my premiums will pay for my family's care and not those who are freeloaders. I was wrong to say Free, ok, but my premiums will cover our needs and not yours from now on. And again floridamom1 NOBODY GETS TAXED UNLESS THEY DON"T HAVE INSURANCE. I hope not all Floridians are that stupid not to understand that.

And the top tax rates historically under Presidents: FDR 94% Truman 87% LBJ: 77% Nixon 70% Reagan 28% Clinton 39% W 33% Obama 33% and yes wants to raise the highest level to 40% for those rich folks...to pay for the needs and thing Americans expect.

I also own a small business and am happy about the ACA. I wish it were single payer, but I am happy this is still standing. We already have seen good things, and when it is in full force we will see even more. Don't buy into the scare tactics. Read it, absorb it, and don't believe all you are told.

Norman, also check the debt increases by President...Reagan-186%, Bush Sr.-54%, Clinton-41%, Bush Jr.-71%, Obama-23%. Seems like DEMOCRATS have actually spent LESS than their GOP counterparts have been espousing, which is telling just in itself.

Mr. Binkie, why do you think that the Republicans, after they take the senate and kick Obama to the curb, don't have the CONSTITUTIONAL right to repeal this horrible over-reach of a socialist and his cronies? If Romney doesn't push for the instant repeal during his first week as president I would really be shocked! Also see what happens during Romneys first term and he gets the chance to put in 2-3 young, conservative jurists into the Supreme Court and then gets to replace 1-2 liberal justices during his final term! This will be the ultimate conservative revolution against liberalism and tax and spend politics!

Read Believe in America at MittRomney.com - the first thing Romney will do is sign the Pacific Partnership Agreement (NAFTA with Asia) and then raise the visa cap to "fill 1.25 million high skilled jobs currently available" with "highly educated immigrants." The 8-10% of unemployed Americans are apparently to stupid or expensive to take these jobs.

Then he will attach a green card to the diploma of every immigrant on a study visa with a degree in math, science, and engineering.

Because that is what you do in a labor surplus, bring in more labor... okay, cheaper labor.

Read the plan. Full pdf at www.mittromney.com Believe in America

Romney is just SO out of touch with the rest of us! How many off-shore bank accounts do YOU have again Romney?

If you're so proud of America Romney? Why do you hide your money in off-shore bank accounts?

Famous last words before you move out of the country I hope.

Or before you commit treason, I would think. After all, anyone who isn't you shouldn't be allowed to live, and you're already immortal, right? You ARE protected by the blessings of Lord God Supreme King Romney, right? His "glory" turns the lights on in life every day, right? He "feeds and clothes" you because you don't need to buy your own clothes and food, right?

Such a rhetorical slave to the end... and quite an idiot too.

Humans are mortal. They get sick and die, just as all living things do. We try to preserve our life by any means possible (and sensible). We do not PRAY to a GOD for our life to be saved. God gave us the opportunity to learn to save our own lives - if he did not want that, he would've intervened and said "No". But he didn't. This plan passed because it was just plain good sense.

As Alucard from Castlevania once said: "The only way for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing."

Cujo, I really think that you are mistaken on which political party "promises" what they cannot deliver! The Democrats have created a permanent underclass in this country by eliminating the incentive to work. I am not a religious man, but, I am really getting sick and tired of idiot liberals who insult anyone who believes in a greater being than the "flavor-of-the-day" socialist politician that you seem to worship! Romney, to my knowledge, has never told anyone that they could not practice their religion as they see fit, or not to practice it! Liberals treat anyone who is religious as uneducated buffoons who do not deserve any respect!

Conservative - someone who thinks that you can believe whatever you would like, in politics or in religion.

Liberal - someone who thinks that you can believe whatever you would like, in politics or in religion.... as long as you believe the same way they do!!!!!

Adam, Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed are all considered prophets in Islam. But not Joseph Smith.

We need Romney because only he can fulfill Joseph Smith's prophecy and restore the Nephite supremacy.

Please tell me that was sarcasm, Defend .........

My bumper sticker says, "Obama Sucks Less".

And yet, so many people voted for the man currently in office. Before you make fun of Romney it's important to check out the guy in the oval office. The man has publicly stated that he doesn't like the Constitution, he has worked diligently to destroy it and he has broken his oath of office.

You are delusional. He is a constitutional scholar. He knows more about the Constitution than any five people you know. As for his oath of office, he has defended this country more than any president in recent history including getting the number 1 terrorist killed and his organization destroyed in the process!

Wake up and look through clear eyes and don't listen to the garbage of faux news.

Three branches of Government have now supported an upheld the AHCA. But governors from Florida, New Jersey, LA and several other states said they will not go along with it? Ok but then the Federal Government will come in and set up the exchanges. Would the people of the each state want their out setups that work for them. In California we are almost ready to go. The government seems to care about everyone here and not just about political posturing. The health care law is one component to get California out of the ditch caused from of a horrible recession and mortgage mess.

Floridamom is off her meds again, forgive her for sounding like an idiot.

The man has publicly stated that he doesn't like the Constitution

please provide a link to prove that, or else back off.

tonybeerm .... I do like so many of your posts but I can't stand your avatar! Just because ... ;-)

And floridamom, back it up sister. I'm so tired of posts that are inflammatory with no facts. When will the GOP lovers start doing their party a favor and start posting facts and figures that show how Mitt (always a close-up pic you'll notice) is actually going to make a plan, have a plan, or just a statement that makes any kind of sense???? The whole "we hate the President" thing is as old and stale as a crouton.

QUACK...QUACK...QUACK!!! That is what the Repubs are saying now isn't it. Well guess what Repubs it is all the same thing. The President of the United States has passed the same duck to help 30million+Americans and you just flailed in the wind. It is the same thing and Americans will benefit just like the people of Mass. have done. You are all idiots and the American people and their well being are the last of you concerns. This obsession is going to be your downfall. You have failed the American people by your bias, lack of representation for the people and stonewalling at every turn to make this countru great again. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. Althought, I doubt you have the courage to admit your ignorance.

Yep, Obama still flip flopping on every issue.

He's evolving ;o)

He's evolving ;o)

No, he's going to be re-elected to a second term ;-)))

Stockpiling....I hope YOU start evolving soon! You are looking more like your mother everyday!!!

Obama... It's a fee, no it's a tax! We won't raise taxes, oh yes we will! We have an "any-of-the above" energy policy, as long as it's not oil, gas, coal or nuclear! Flip-flop, flippity-flop!

Actually Dan M. Your only claim to Obama being a flip flopper is because you twist what he's says to fit your rant. Obama proposed a specific plan to raise taxes which would only affect those making more than 250K but never stated he'd never implement any other taxes that did,he was referring to a specific tax.

His stating he wished to promote any and all energy programs that would make us more energy self sufficient doesn't mean he'd allow any company to drill anywhere. But then again your no worse than a Republican Congress that forces the President to either reject plans for a pipeline before environmental studies have been completed or accept it as is strictly for political gain.

They polls have only increase only slighting supporting it. Not much yet. It hasn't even gone into total effect yet so most people don't see the befits.. But it is interesting that almost every single benefit of the law the majority loves by far when they are asked about each one individually (yes except the mandate). But like some have said here, the mandate was a republican idea and is a way to make it all work economically. The point people don't understand about the mandate is that they only pay the tax, fine penalty only if they DON"T have health insurance.NO OTHER TAX IF THEY DO!!! I'm not sure if people are actually stupid or believe the lies, but I personally don't know anyone who wants coverage denied for pre existing conditions, life time or yearly caps, wants to pay for prescreening services, doesn't want to go bankrupt now if they really get sick, get dumped from their carrier, don't want their young adult children to be covered on their plan or want that rebate of their insure makes too much of a profit.

Stock,

Nope, not much change in the polls, Obama is still winning. There has been a slight change in the swing state polls, however. Obama's lead has increased in most of them, like VA, OH, PA, WI, MI & IA, and he's taken the lead away from Romney in Florida.

Romney had no viable path to 270 electoral votes before, now he's just looking pathetic.

If the mandate was a Republican idea and the majority dislike it; what does it say about Republican ideas in general. It sounds like to me that their ideas are not well liked much by anyone, sometimes even Republicans. Then again I love when they get wrapped up in their own ideological defeat.

The "majority" of Republicans don't dislike the healthcare act or the mandate. They don't even know what they aret and they don't care. The "majority" is deeply racist and hate President Obama because, whether individually conscious of it or not (many aren't), they can't stand the idea of a black man as president and will jump on any false fact or belief to affirm their discomfort with him. If Willie Horton worked when the only black man in sight was on a commercial, it's not hard to see how well that demogaguery plays out against a black president.

Latent racists arose by far more dangerous than blatant ones. They won't their racism, are in fact offended when confronted with it, hold it more deeply and subconsciously than blatant ones. Those three factors mean they won't recognize or change their racist behavior.

Can't tell you how many times I've corrected a FB posting of false fact about the President. Time after time, the comment is "yabut still." Still what? The only "still" left is "he's black." Get over it and get the John Birch Society out of the Republican Party.

eliizzabeth,

Please google the facts of the Heath care law. You will be pleasantly surprised.

In 2014, insurance companies cannot deny you insurance because of pre-existing conditions, no life cap on coverage, no co pays or charges for preventive screenings, cannot charge you more than someone else based on being sick.

And currently, insurance companies must spend at least 80% of their premium dollars on paying claims, if they pay less than 80% , they are rebating each person who has private insurance and employers who provide coverage for their employee. The checks will be mailed out in August.

Northstar, regardless of your information, someone will have to pay. And if you think the check is in the mail, you haven't been here for very long.

Apparently you haven't been reading this blog becasue someone already got their rebate for their company. Sad when people can't admit the truth.

Floridamom...I received notice of my rebate...very nice. Thank you,President Obama!!

floridamom1,

"someone will have to pay"

Exactly, did you read my post?

The insurance company who does not spend 80% of your dollars of your plan on paying for benefits will have to reimburse either the person or the employer under your insurance plan It is part of the law. It is keeping the insurance company honest. I get my insurance through my employer.

You do have insurance, right?

Hi: I'm MIttt ROmney. VOte for me because I'lll eliminate your Health Care. I'lll lower the minimum wage until it hurts, also. Plus, I'm white.

Northstar, floridamom1 just posts .... she doesn't read other's posts or answer questions. If any of you are on FB ... I would so recommend this site ... www.facebook.com/#!/ACAForDummies. Just a wee bit helpful.

It's sad that they are allowed to rake in 20%. That is right there with casinos.

States rights Jchap.

floridamom1,

Is that why, in the first edition of Romney's book (before it was removed) he said it was a blueprint for a national plan?

Thank goodness more Floridians are waking up and President Obama has taken Romney's lead there away.

Tell me would that be one of the same cliffs the republicans have tried to take us over time and time again? I support President Obama becuase he has done a great job and if you cannot see that or mention why you don't think he has done a good job then maybe this isn't the place for you. The republicans have almost destroyed this nation I cannot imagine how or why you or anyone else would support them ever again.

OSAMA BIN LADEN IS DEAD!!!

OBAMA 2012 / DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS 2012

Once again--for those of you who just don't seem to understand this no matter how many times it's said--the "tax," "penalty," "fee," or whatever, is only paid by people who CAN AFFORD health insurance but CHOOSE NOT TO GET IT. That is not the middle class, generally, because they are insured through their employers. For most people, this will be a non-issue. HOWEVER, there are plenty of people who do not have health insurance but could pay for it--only they would rather spend the money on flat-screen TV sets, trips to Disney World, and new electronic devices. THOSE are the people who are targeted by the penalty. And they should be! One trip to the ER for these people can cost thousands of dollars, and everyone with insurance ends up paying more because of them.

Sherry,

Youa re right.

the word "freeloader" was used by Romney in a interview when he was describing his MA Heathcare plan and the requirment for all folks in MA to get heath insurance. It is for those who Choose not to get heath insurance.

Fast forward to today, Romney now wants to repeal the federal heathcare law.....

Well, in that case, the health insurance industry has no legal right to charge people who do have insurance more to cover the uninsured using the ER.

The same situation goes for the hospital simply passing that bill on in higher costs per service. The hospital also has no right to do that--charge a customer for a service they did not use in order to cover the costs of people using the ER without insurance.

That logic does not sit well with me and IMHO opinion, should not have happened in the first place.

Either way Elliizzabeth, someone has to pay. Whether the insurance companies charge you more so the uninsured can go to the ER or whether the hospital charges you more to recover their costs or whether the Federal government charges you more so that everyone can go. You still get charged. Fee, tax, penalty. It's all the same thing.

eliizabeth,

I agree that the heath care system got screwed up over many years.

The new law is a step in the right direction. It tackles the whole issue of the cost of the uninsured who need care. Their costs end up costing all of us. Getting 32 million uninsured citizens affordable heath insurance is a benefit for all of us.

And Happy 4th of July to you too !

Premiums have been going up because health costs are going up. A hospital is a business. When people are unable to pay and all collection avenues are exhausted, they roll that loss into the cost of doing business. It's the same way retailers recover shoplifting losses. We ALL pay.

I agree some insurance companies have done nasty things (drop people when they get sick, for example), but the entire reason for premium increases can't be laid at their feet.

Floridamom.....Not to worry, you will still get your welfare checks and food stamps

Either way Elliizzabeth, someone has to pay.

Floridamom is having a dense attack. Poor thing completely misses the point that someone HAS BEEN paying for this all along - and they are the insured. We are now shifting that burden to the willfully uninsured.

floridamom1 ...

Whether the insurance companies charge you more so the uninsured can go to the ER or whether the hospital charges you more to recover their costs or whether the Federal government charges you more so that everyone can go. You still get charged. Fee, tax, penalty. It's all the same thing.

Who on earth do you think has been paying all along???????? Get a grip! The insurance companies have been overcharging for years to recoup the losses that providers have had due to so many thinking the ER is a doctor's office! I spent SIX long hours in the ER Monday night with my daughter who was referred there by her PCP and sat and looked at people with cuts, scrapes, coughs, etc. Things that were NOT necessary of an ER visit but people go there because they cannot be turned away. GAH!!!!

I have paid for insurance for the last 35 years but got my renewal notice at the end of last year and could not afford it anymore. It has triplied in the the last 4 years. I am self employed. So you know never taken any government assistance. The thing that really bothers me is what Elizabeth writes about and that is the deceptive practices of the insurance companies. I've had some little medical problems and they pay a little but I'm still paying thousands some years out of pocket. The final straw was I had a small skin cancer removed. My prescriptions are supposed to be covered and the insurance paid for some antibiotics in the past but when I needed a $300 prescription ointment for after the spot of skin cancer was removed it was "Sorry that's not covered." As long as they get a lot more in premiums than they pay out they are fine with things. If I could believe the insurance companies would pay in the event of a major illness I would try harder to have insurance but what is the point when a single policy holder like myself can easily be denied just to improve their bottom line. I don't think these issues are really addressed in the ACA. So I'm hanging on and trying to stay healthy and will try the exchange when it is set up. When and if I get insurance there is still no guarantee that anything will actually be paid if I have a problem. So not all people without insurance are freeloaders. There just isn't any point in paying for something if it won't be there for you when you need it.

There has to be a lot wrong with many people in America. Health care is not a benefit but a right and not just a right, but an unalienable right. It has to be horrible, even sadistic that other nations who are less rich, less powerful get to have a better health care than our so so health care. We are 37th in the world, a la par with Cuba, and yet we outspend all those "socialist nations" and look ma, we are still 37 and still people are not only dying, but in so doing they are loading their relatives with millions in debts or declare bankruptcy.

France, which I'm sure nobody here believes could be any better than us in any thing and look they have the best health care. Actually, take any nation in Europe, even from the Easren portion and they still have a better system than us. Health care is not for business, nor bottom line priorities, it's there so all men that are "created equal" can live the same as all others, no matter if richer, no matter if uglier, no matter if shorter, larger, taller, etc. We all have the same right to live than the 1%. Until we all get single payer option, we will be a wing and a prayer from death or bankruptcy and that is not Christian, nor democratic.

If you look at all the innovation in the healthcare industry, it was developed in the US. Why because companies had money for research. Europe and others feed off the products that were first developed here. The Same goes for most drugs. You ask why should we pay more for healthcare, the simple reason is because of insurance. Insurance takes away the responsibility of making decesions. You go to the Doctor, you do not ask what the different charges are for each test and proceedure. You say go for it, the my insurance will pay for it. So everyone charges the Insurance more, and the insurance (not out to loose money) charges you more for it, and of course you scream bloody murder, because the prices climb. Even though it is your fault. Go to a dentist and ask what they charge if insurance is paying for a root canal, then ask what the cash price is for it. (usually it will be several hundred dollars differance). And in the end the consumer (you and me) pay for that differance. Now We have Obamacare. Now the Taxpayers will get stuck with the bill, You will pay more taxes on medical supplies, Companies will also pay more in taxes (of which will be passed on to the consumer, since Companies never have to pay taxes themselves). So we will get hit with a double whamee. Then your federal and state taxes will go up to cover the other expensives, and cost hikes that will occure. The triple Whamee. I am lucky my company got an exemption from the federal government so I am not worried.

By the way Hell no, health care is not a Right, at all it is the same as owning a motor vehicle. There is no mention of healthcare in the constitution. I also know that most of Europe pays much higher Taxes for their healthcare. Something most americans would not go for (they complain about the hi cost of insurance, which is far cheaper for them). Second all men are not created equal, as nice as it might sound. Some have good parients some have bad parients. Some come from rich families, some from poor families. Some are born healthy, some have birth defects. But our past medical system could help correct for the last one. Now boards will decide if a person is valuable enough to sociaty to be worth the expense. Doctors will not be allow to donate thier time to fix things. The good of the one has stripped the good of the many down to the same level. Not fair for either, but that is no longer for us to decide for ourselves, as we have had our power taken away from us. The decisions now rest on strangers.

We already have the right to live. (not as the 1% because you may not have the money to do so) but taking away other peoples right to choose how they want to get health insurance is not the answer, as it doen't help the uninsured at all. In fact it hurts it. Like everything the rich make it affordable for the rest of us. (get that puzzled look of your face, liberals). Here is an example. Flat screen TV's, when they first came out they were very expensive, only the richest could afford the 40K prices, but because some were sold, the prices started comming down, Each year the price was halved, so in the course of a few years the price started getting smaller and the size got bigger. The same set that would have cost 25K years ago can be bought for under a thousand and the quality got better. I can remember the first human heart transpant. It cost a fortune, Now they are nothing special and the cost has come down. The system works in a free market for just about everything from wrist watches to the latest cell phones, to computers. Government stops competiton and invention. If they run healthcare, it will be a desaster for all.

Government stops competiton and invention.

Pure and utter BS. Government funded development and research has done as much, if not more, for our technological advances than any private enterprise. ENIAC is just one example. NASA has over 6,300 patents. This link highlights just 10 of those we use in everyday life.

Government is also the most efficient at managing healthcare, as evidenced by 2% administrative cost vs. similar private sector plans which can add up to 16%. The point being, private plans must have profit built in - the government has no profit motive. The link below provides a balanced view of the pros/cons to various studies performed on administrative costs in public/private plans.

http://curiosity.discovery.com/topic/physics-concepts-and-definitions/ten-nasa-inventions.htm

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/06/administrative-costs/

@300Michael, you've got your facts wrong, actually backward.

Out-of-pocket or underinsured (as in insured w/super high deductible, stripped-down plan) are billed MORE and pay MORE than employer insured. Example: One tube of medical cream, price for insurance company, $8, out-of-pocket price, $134. Personal experience, I know what I'm talking about. Another example: Colonoscopy, price charged insurance company, $1250, out-of-pocket price same hospital, $4250. Again, personal experience.

The ACA brings a lot more customers into the fold and reduces insurance companies' risk. BUT they needed to know that their competition would have to play by the same rules or it wouldn't work. That alone-the much bigger pool of insured--reduces real cost. The bigger the pool, the lower the risk and cost. Insurance companies will do fine, better than fine, because they will easily make up in volume what they should lose (because they've been scamming people) in profit margin per individual. The new system itself will mostly generate enough savings to "pay for" itself.

Typical pre-ACA costs for a self-insured family of four: $700/month for catastrophic insurance, $8400/year. PLUS $250 well check per child, $8900 per year. PLUS $375 well check for mom, $9275. PLUS $300 well check for dad, $9575. PLUS $400 for mom's mammogram, $9975. PLUS two sick visits to Dr.'s office, $800, $10,775. Note that high deductibles are pp, not the whole family.

So that's about $11,000 per family without even thinking about going to the dentist or eye doctor, other screenings, illnesses or injuries. The average household income in the US for a family of four is about $50,000, with over half the country making less--these are people who work, mind you.

Healthcare "costs"--mostly the profit paid to insurers and the middleman financial management companies between providers and insurance companies--continues to rise uncontrollably while wages, which ought to rise in proportion to productivity gains actually decline (because employers are stealing the gains from their workers).

Unsustainable system. Frankly, any for-profit system is unsustainable, but ACA will do until we can figure out how to wean the insurance industry and its associated businesses off the American worker. ACA, based on third-party insurance, is what Republicans touted for years, they should embrace it.

As for "panels," are you that ignorant? "Death panels" DO exist--in insurance company cubicles, not in government offices. Which would you rather have make decisions--an insurance company worker charged with increasing profit by your death or a government worker charged with protecting your health and life? I'll take for the people by the people, thank you.

Finally, universal healthcare is no more socialistic than universal education. Or universal roads. Or universal police and fire protection. Or universal national defense. Or universal clean environment. It is something the people can do together far better than for-profit companies because the profit motive runs effectively counter to what we want and need to get out of such systems.

Good health, like education, like infrastrucure, like natural resources, like defense, is a pillar of democracy and successful capitalism. We the people need to provide it for ourselves in the most effective way or become a third-world nation--something we're well on our way to without universal healthcare.

Oops, Michael 300 you've done it again. I didn't know you were addressing your comments to me, but when I was going to change the "page" I saw my name and I felt it's my duty to set you up straight. Of course, the other two above my new commentary, showed you that you are fool of bull, although if you don't believe the two below you, I don't see how in hell am I going to change your mind. How to change the mind of one track minds? It's impossilbe, but let my try.

First of all, to determine if health care is a right vs a benefit, we have to determine first what we are. We are a democracy and as the names so abundantly explains, it is the power of, by and for the people. Second, don't we proclaim to the four corners of the world how "Christian" this nation is? All the time, specially from people of the right that have sold their soul to the company store and just because some supreme farce states that corporations are individuals, doesn't make it so. People are human, ergo, they always look after me, me and me and that is not Christian nor democratic.

You can't ask a criminal if he believes whatever crime is committing is a crime, cause we all know his/her answer, ergo, we have to ask people who understand the true meaning of democracy and all those nations that are the epitome of how a democracy should be will tell, and not just by words, but better yet, by deeds that health care is a right for all, period. You wouldn't ask Mubarack, or the Saudis how best to govern their countries, would you? No, of course, because you and I and everybody in the world knows that they are nothing more than despotic regimes that are all out for me, me, me, ergo, scratch them off your list. On the other hand, and it happens all the time, all over the world. When the world sees something working at another city, nation, what is the first thing other nations do? You got it, they send people, professionals to find out how they do it, because they want to have whatever they are having and by that shown interest, it means they are doing better than others. 300Michael, don't loose me please. The whole world knows that we are not the better health care in the world, heck we are not even a democracy, so right here, you have to tell America, if you want to find out, truly find out if universal health is a right or a benefit, you have to, I'm afraid, don't even include America in your appreciations, we are 37th, a la par with Cuba. Cuba for God's sake, Cuba, don't you get it.

Now let's copy from the best: France. They feel, along with the rest of Europe, that health care is a right, ergo, to contradict them that are best at that is asinine and worse: Stupid. Otherwise who can argue with the best?

Now let's use Christianity. I don't know if you are Christian or not, but whatever your religion, taking care of your neighbor is a commandment. But what I don't understand form you people is why be so oppose to abortion which a sin and not be opposed to killing other human beings for lack of health care?

And if you are agnostic, still doesn't make any sense. According to reports about Norway, they are the least practicing "Christians" on Earth, yet they consider health care for all a right, just like a civil/human right.

And to put the nail on your coffin of not wanting to see, hear the truth, let me copy and paste what Amnestyusa, a branch, I think of AI, says: "Universality: Everyone in the United States has the human right to health care."

Let me ask you, do you believe Obama is a U.S. citizen? Well, if you ask republicans, tea partiers, they will tell you: No, hell no, he is an illegal, but the rest of the world, including his mortal enemies at the supreme farce believe he is a U.S. citizen, ergo, you can't ask tea partiers, republicans, insurance companies that have an invested interest on for profit health care to tell you that health care is not a right, but their actions and yours speak volumes about being, not an honest person trying to debate if health care is a right or a benefit, by listening to people with an obvious foot on the scale of impartiality.

mdmtnwmn was right on target. Don't we have a defense department? It's isn't that defense socialist also? So, why, it's O.K. for our nation to make everybody pay to kill other human beings and not O.K. to have ehalth care to save lives? Your closed mind can't let you see how stupid you sound.

I wish I could understand how people like you be so cruel with the predicaments of others when it pertains to health care and so non-chalant with the billions uncle Sam gives corporations? I don't know how stupid you are, but that money, like it or not, belongs to we the people, ergo, since charity begins at home, shouldn't we take care first of Joe Q. Public and if we have extra money then try to help corporations get ahead. FYI, it's well known to all, of course not you, that corporations buy "our elected" representatives" so they don't have to pay their fair share in taxes? And to add insult to injury, don't you know that many of those corporations that pay no taxes, the government still ends up giving them billions more? So according to you that is O.K., but health care for all is not? Are you sure you are an American? I have my doubts. You sound more like a paid infomercial than an impartial source searching for the truth. I hope you can see the light and realize how stupid you sound trying to explain something you don't even understand.

States rights versus federal rights. States should win every time, if you read the Constitution.

Not true Floridamom1.

Article VI, Clause 2 (the Supremacy Clause) directly contradicts what you wrote. Also take a look a the 10th Amendment ratified 12/15/1791.

Did you vote for Scott, floridamom1? If so, you are getting "state's rights" right up the wazoo at the moment. I live in Florida also, and I have never seen such a farce as the current governor. Now we get to watch him disenfranchise people who in just about any other state would qualify for Medicaid, since he is going to refuse the Medicaid expansion. What a great move. I can hardly wait to get this man out of office!

Very simple, Friday it was a tax....Monday he said it was not. Wednesday, he said it is a tax....can't wait to see Thursday and Friday.

"I stand by what I said, whatever it was!"

JayEll,

Great post.

Wasn't your governor once in the heathcare industry?

It is sad that he and four other governors have already said that they will not take the Medicaid option.

Trip...you seem like the only person over on this blog that exhibits common sense and undersanding. I lived in Massachusetts and experienced Mass Health Plan by Romney. The states can have a mandate, the federal government by law cannot...therefore it is a tax. People can slam Romney all they want, but his plan saved the small and some large hospitals from closing due to the federal law requiring care to be given to the uninsured. We experienced money in the coffer when he left, everybody had a job, no need to "create" jobs, and we were all very happy with Romney. The tax, penalty stuff is just to divert from the real issue....the economy and the fact that Obama's HC law is too comprehensive, too expensive and does not do what it needs to do. I wish more people would study this issue rather than just talk. Under Romney's plan a family of 4 was insured by a hundred bucks....how much will Obama care cost, and how many people like myself will leave healthcare because we need to make a living. Food for thought. Thanks for listening.

The whole point is Obama said read my lips, NO NEW TAXS ON THE PEOPLE UNDER 250K

If I recall, a Republican President (Bush Sr.) said, "Read My Lips, No New Taxes"

He lied through his teeth.

States rights versus federal rights. States should win every time, if you read the Constitution.

floridamom1 .... maybe you should have a chat with Jan Brewer . . . . .

The People of Mass. Choose to tax themselves, for their healthcare. Obamacare is a tax, (even though he pleged not to raise taxes on anyone under 250K) on everyone. We did not get a choice like the Mass. voters, it was forced on us, even though 2/3 rds didn't want it. So Obama lied, and he forced it down our throts, I would call that a big diffance between Romneycare and Obamacare. One was given to the voters to choose, the other was forced by the use of lies.

Larry-nc Bush made a agreement with the Democrats, that he would raise taxes, if they cut spending, of course they lied and didn't cut spending. Bush tried to make a deal, but the Democrats got what they wanted and reniged in return. That is why the Republicans didn't take Obamas 10 to 1 deal because they would have done the same thing they did twice before.

I hope Jan Brewer doesn't take the Medicaid, or the Obamacare Expansion. If given the chance I would have voted for Walker. He is the best thing that has happend to the state. Now they are showing job growth.

300Michael ... of course she won't! She believes that Arizona is their own personal country and her Secretary of State, Ken Bennett believes it as well. Good LAWS!!!! Don't you ever want this country to actually be a United States or do you think that succession is actually a viable option? And if you want to see job growth, google MY State .... Utah ... weird as we are, we are 5th in the Nation under a DEMOCRATIC President and a Republican Governor who is very progressive.

Obama never said he'd implement no taxes for those under 250K he merely said his proposal for changing federal income taxes wouldn't affect those under that amount. But why let a good lie get in the way of the truth?

I doubt the people of massachusetts voted on Romneys plan the state senate did. Assuming they would have because it's a liberal state is quite an assumption.

"The American people know that President Obama has broken the pledge he made," Romney said in the CBS interview. "He said he wouldn’t raise taxes on middle-income Americans."

I honestly do not trust a WORD that comes out of Romneys mouth now. This guy is the "father of lies". He is CONSTANTLY changing his message. I have no idea how his Republican followers even keep up. They have to be regretting their choice for a candidate right now. Or, they are hoping he will pick a VP that can at least detract from him and win the election for him.

When I see the guy, I just think "here's another Donald Trump" looking to add the title "President of the US" to his resume. Nothing more!!!

Starfox, replace "Romney" with "Obama" and "Republican" with "Democrat" and you and I agree completely.