It was a Jack in the Box surprise across the board.

She quickly explained to a confused president what had happened. ... with that wording, MSNBC works for who?

It seems most of the MSM did too.

Wishful thinking I suppose....

Bet that was a heart stopper for 40 secs. Not only for President Obama but also for those on the right who wanted this so badly they could about taste it. Wouldn't you have liked to have been a fly on the wall in Romney headquarters?

It is sad to see the once great CNN falter on a historic moment as did Faux Entertainment. I expect it of Faux as the right was so certain this was going their way, only to find they got it wrong. There was a time when we turned to CNN to get the whole story but not anymore. As they took a turn to the right, in trying to chase Faux in the ratings they fell on their face. Ted Turner must be shaking his head. Overreach wil get you every time.

Congratulations to MSNBC on a job well done.....now if we could only get Newsvine sorted out.

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

That will teach the White House to watch CNN & Fox! LOL

MSNBC is thee place to be!

Indeed, they can't even get their geograhy correct in their graphics dept; forget about the news.

Look at these maps

Fox's Graphics Department Fails (Mislabeling States Edition)

http://mediamatters.org/blog/201112130027

Gingerbread Mamma ... sorry to report dear but after Ted sold CNN it became the Walmart of News Channel.

Thank God it passed. I have hope in America again. This is an historic moment in our country. I can't help but wipe a few tears from my cynical eyes.

Conservative journalists/wishy washy pundits/politicians report something and stick with it to the very end. It's usually sloppy and wishful thinking/reporting on their part. And no matter how wrong their initial reporting was, they will never ever change their minds. Mitt Romney is a perfect example of this. He hears something once and never ever backtracks if the reporting is inaccurate. He just goes with it until he is proven wrong. Which is always. He's a walking talking conservative radio host in the manner of Limbaugh. No credibility. We see a lot of pundits follow this same trend on tv which is why they are unpopular with us.

Democratic/progressive/real journalists read the initial reporting and go to work to prove the strengths and weakness of the report. They will then present the more accurate reporting. And they are usually correct when all is said and done. No matter the issue.

That's their job.

Apparently the confusion came from the fact that everyone was expecting this to come down to the Commerce clause...and in the beginning of the opinion it is noted that strictly from the commerce clause, it is unconstitutional. It was after you got past that that Roberts made the "tax" argument. I think the problem was that everyone wanted to be the first to report on the outcome. It was pretty wacky at one point to see multiple news agencies reporting different things.

To my friends on the right...respect the decision, however unexpected it may be, and use it as motivation towards November. This bill wouldn't have been passed if the Dems hadn't been incredibly motivated in 2008 and obliterated us in those elections.

Can't we all just get along or do we need a mandate to do it.

-Proud to be independent

At the end of the day PBS will shed all of the grey areas ... they are funded by all colours of the spectrum.

I think that John King is a closet conservative and republican. After the smack down that he received during the republican primary debates you'd think he'd have a change of heart.

But no, he seemed to revel in the glory of his jumped conclusion before the facts were laid to bare. Sad.

Dems hadn't been incredibly motivated in 2008 and obliterated us in those elections.

Fasten your seat-belt Grimey - you're in for a repeat!

It's going to be pretty hard for moderate Republicans & Indy's to get motivated over plastic Willard!

Team Willard is reporting 500 attendee's as an over-flow crowd! lmao!

How pathetic...

RedSoxRule(the cellar),

You do realize that it was still ruled constitutional. Do YOU have any idea what is going on?

It is hard to watch the Conservatives today because so few dared to show their faces.

It is hard to watch the Conservatives today because so few dared to show their faces.

They sure did run off this morning with their follicles on fire...

For weeks we had to listen to their taunts and when they got their ass handed to them, they didn't have the testicular fortitude to stick around! lol

TNSEVOL...

It is hard to watch the Conservatives today because so few dared to show their faces.

Some of us are still here to be kicked around! ;-)

Fiesty-

The bias of CNN is shocking!!!

We have come to expect utter foolishness from FAUX News but this faux pas from CNN is downright chilling.

Heaven help us if this is all the MSM can offer as professional journalism. I can't wait to hear Rachel and Lawrence's take tonite.

Chuckle, chuckle.

Silver Flyer, there is nothing "closet" about John King's conservatism. That's part of the reason I stopped watching CNN. Because of the blatant rightward bias of so many of their people.

RedSoxRule aka RedSuxRove aka RedSniffsGlue ... which of the Bob quintuplets are you? The dumb one would be an oxymoron.

I can't wait to hear Rachel and Lawrence's take tonite.

Hi Sheila!

Me either... right now I'm listening to Martin Bashir who I also ♥!

RedSox,

The tax (fine) is estimated to affect 3% to 5% of people. Last year in Mass it collected the fine on only 1% of the people.

If you don't want a tax increase (fine) then just buy the insurance and stop freeloading off of the rest of us.

I was one of the first to dog Verrilli but fortunately, he had a second argument. I am happy to say I was wrong, and thank goodness for all Americans that the second argument prevailed.

Isn't this proof enough that Fox viewers are chronically mis-informed?

RedSoxDrool-

Like I said, the legislation itself was deemed constitutinal and that is all that matters.

Spout your RWNJ talking points about a tax increase on the low and middle-class all you want, but the facts are the only ones who will pay the "tax" are those who can afford healthcare but CHOOSE not to pay for it.

* Already have healthcare - no "tax"

* Can't afford to purchase healthcare, you will be subsidized to purchase it - no "tax"

* CAN afford to purchase healthcare but CHOOSE not to - "TAX"

What is wrong with making those who have the ability to pay take responsibility for their healthcare? I thought that was something Conservatives and Liberals could agree on?

It makes me SAD to see someone who is either gravely misinformed or downright deceitful about the provisions of the ACA.

I hope someone records Faux's coverage and puts it on You Tube. It would be a hoot to watch the joy and jubilation when they report their initial screw up only to watch their heads explode when they finally figure out the truth.

Bulletstopper, what was there to prevent employers from dumping their plans before the rulings (or if the Affordable Care Act had been ruled unconstitutional)? There never was any kind of employer mandate in the past, so why would now employers start to drop coverage? Just another right wing talking point with no basis in logic or common sense.

It's not a tax if there is no penalty or method to collect or enforce it; no lien on anyone's paycheck or tax refund. It is a magical, mythical mandate.

Hey RedSoxDrool, do you also perform your act at parties? Watching you try to squirm and spin today's ruling is the best entertainment I had in ages.

Gee -- Fox got something wrong. Sorry but -- that's NOT news. They get something wrong several times every day.

Perhaps was watching CNN, which initially incorrectly reported that the Supreme Court has struck down the Affordable Care Act. CNN needs to apologize to its viewers.

@RedSoxRule

Remember, 2010 election was all about the disdain for Obamacare.

Wrong. The jackboots make me laugh- of course, alternately rolling my eyes. 2010 was about the dems being given a mandate with the power to implement it in 2008 and they didn't do it. As much as I loathe bushco and Frist, I assure you that if they had the majorities that the dems had, they would have implemented everything they wanted, PDQ. The dems were content to blame the GOP for their inaction rather than just doing what they had to do to take care of business. They could have run over the GOP and if the GOP didn't want to get off of the tracks, that is what they should have done but didn't. That is why they were punished.

Jody and Dennis...I hear what you are saying, but I'm confused then by this passage in the decision (bold emphasis mine)...

Those subject to the individual mandate may lawfully forgo health insurance and pay higher taxes, or buy health insurance and pay lower taxes. The only thing that they may not lawfully do is not buy health insurance and not pay the resulting tax."

Seems to reinforce the payment of a tax.

REdSox,

You are really embarrassing yourself.

I suggest you read up on the implications of the law. Yes read, not listen to the cable news.

Here is a hint. The individual mandate is for those seeking private insurance, after the free market base exchanges are put in effect, subsidized premium support for low income workers are in place. Then and only then if you choose not to buy insurance as a deadbeat, you will be taxed. This would happen in 2015.

Legalize - NO, the law IS NOT UNCONSTITUTIONAL! Get over it!

Anyone watch Soledad O'Brien completely own Rep. John Mica last night? He was straight up squirming and stuttering...it was fricken' hilarious.

off topic

The Black Caucas and House Democrats just walked out of the witch hunt on AG Eric Holder.

The NRA doesn't want their international arms trafficking cash cow shut down-That is Fast & Furious in a nutshell

Way to go Dems!

Anyone watch Soledad O'Brien completely own Rep. John Mica last night?

I missed that... but did catch Reverend Al eviscerate him! lol

Mica looked like he was going to stroke out!

The Black Caucas just walked out of the witch hunt on AG Eric Holder.

Bev,

From what I'm seeing on MSNBC - the entire Demcratic caucus has walked out!

WOOT!

That is what all the Dems should do Feisty, walk out on this travesty, especially the ones who think this is BS but who live in more conservative districts and are worried about the NRA.

Bipartisan House Majority Votes to Hold Holder in Criminal Contempt

A little good news for a change!

Apparently Chief Justice Roberts does not want to be remembered in history as a political hack from the right. Some have commented that the reality of the ruling is that it was really meant to be a save for the moderate wing of the GOP. If the neo-cons had prevailed on this, very likely the true liberals would have been so enraged that the GOP would have lost the house again. While usually a monumental task after just one congressional term, a highly motivated Democratic party would likely have swept many races they might not have otherwise won. As it stands, the GOP will likely lose several seats, yet retain control of the house.

The most interesting part of the rather convoluted opinion is how the case says the mandate is not a tax, yet the law prevails because of the power of Congress to tax. I think this is again the Chief Justice's method of not wanting to have the Court get into what really is a political question. The Court does not like being told what it can and can not rule on, so it side steps and says the mandate is not a tax. It also does not like to expand the powers of Congress, yet it does not want to overrule what is essentially a policy decision. The last time the Court overturned basic policy questions it nearly lost its ability to rule when FDR proposed expanding the size of the Court.

The other risk Roberts avoided is in giving critics of the Court additional ammunition to their belief that the Court is controlled by conservative hacks who will always rule in favor of corporate interests. This would galvanize many liberals to retain the Whitehouse until a strong liberal majority of at least 7 justices are put on the Court. Conservatives would lose their ability to have any say in the politics of the country for decades.

I am normally pretty level-headed and open to others opinions, even when I am being called "thick-skulled" or worse, but some of the bullshi# on the healthcare act is UNBELIEVABLE!!!!

"Death Panels", phantom tax increases that "most Americans are subject to", I could go on and on....this goes beyond having an opinion or putting a "spin" on something, this is flat-out ignorance of what the law does and says.

I would be too embarrased to post something on an open forum if I was uninformed as some of the posters here obviously are. They must be part of the majority who don't approve of the ACA but don't really know what's in it.

If you choose to be uninformed, fine - but please don't come on here and post about something you obviously know NOTHING about!

Now if only they would hold themselves in Criminal Comtempt for failing to perform their legal duties :)

Dirp- thank you for being one of the only posters on here who actually understand why John Roberts, who originally opposed the ACA, stepped the other way. It is all politics people. Not about whats right and whats wrong, but about power and the ability to control the government next. It is about damage control and winning over voters every step of the way. "Control the mob and you control Rome"

very surprised that Kennedy voted against this. Also found it interesting that Scolia went against this as well. If you track Health care Industry, they want this to pass, because the overall enrollment will help offset the negativity and help stabilize their base.

This clarified John Robert's position. He is clearly pro-business. And he will vote for business/corp in every case. When Scolia's vote indicates that his vote has political taint, definitely judicial activism...

This is not a day for the Democrats to celebrate, because it is not a party victory. It was simply the right thing to do for our country's workforce and our runaway health care budget. A necessary first step toward preventive care versus the past emergency care. It is a travesty, how so many chose to turn this into an emotional immigration issue.

Johnny N, show us how this is the largest tax increase on the middle and lower class Americans. Otherwise BS walks.

We all won big on this. The health insurance companies just got their A s S handed to them

That would be the provision of the law, called the medical loss ratio, that requires health insurance companies to spend 80% of the consumers’ premium dollars they collect—85% for large group insurers—on actual medical care rather than overhead, marketing expenses and profit. Failure on the part of insurers to meet this requirement will result in the insurers having to send their customers a rebate check representing the amount in which they underspend on actual medical care.

you can read the rest by searching for the bomb in the health care bill

Roosterboy, best save your tears for 2014, then we will all see what the regulators have done. Then we wil see what "affordable" really means.

Were they channeling the Wisconsin Democratic legislators ?

ForePlinger -- Also, is it a mandate if there is no enforcement of said mandate? And yes, the rightwingers who watch FAUX expected a ruling against ACA, after all the court has been stacked. (Thankfully the slippery slope parts of Arizona's immigration law was struck down -- A USSR-style police state was over-reach except for the wingnuts Scalia and Alito.)

Heartlight3 -- CNN has barely been more than news on par with the Entertainment channel, but the irony is rightwingers think CNN is "librul."

dirp

Apparently Chief Justice Roberts does not want to be remembered in history as a political hack from the right.

Dang straight. That this court struck down Montana’s Corrupt Practices Act (1912), yet today upheld state's rights in regard to Medicaid shows the rightwingers on the court legislate from the bench based on political ideology.

Save our courts -- Obama/Biden 2012!

fenderbluesjr

This will be repealed as soon as Romney takes office.

How so? Where do you people get this sh!t? Also, in regard to repeal and replace, please share Romney's "replace" plan with all of us? Romney is a fool, and voters who vote for him are even bigger fools.

As for ACA and capitalism, please explain how regulation against insurance abuses, or a Public Option to insure competition are bad things? When you get your refund checks, come back and tell us how bad ACA is. Riiiight.

WE didn't win anything...It is all wool over our eyes....The insurance companies won......We win when the top 1% has to pay us fare wages and they are taxed to pay for medi-care for all...Everybody that is working class thinks S.S. and medi-care is okay,now we just have to convince the working people in the middle of the U.S. that health-care is a right and and everybody deserves to be treated by doctors and the only people making profits off of it should be the doctors,nurses,food service workers and the people who clean up the hospital etc. We do not need all of those administrative employees who chase down insurance companies for loot....And the doctors shouldn't have to decide what tests and care you receive by what insurance you have....Care should be provided equally........That is what The Supreme Court of the United States should be deciding and of course in favor of since that is their motto after all " Equal protection under law " which makes a lot of sense....We should all receive equal care....The dumbest policy of government could then be done away with and that policy is where government pays a private insurance company profits for giving people health-care through medi-caid and the likes instead of just paying doctors for the care they give......Why do insurance companies deserve any money ???? They aren't doing any work that is needed...

SHOUT OUT!! To Fiesty and the rest of my fellow MSNBC employees for helping convince the SCOTUS and the public that the mandate is constitutionaly approved(Laughing at the tinfoil hat wearers on the right)

From what I am reading in all these comments, no one seems to fully grasp what this health care law really does. Everyone, both liberals and conservatives, just want their party to 'win'. This isn't about what is best for America anymore, just about being in control. By the way, a universal health care policy and massive tax is the LAST thing our country needs right now. And y'all are rejoicing that it was actually approved as a tax. It was only approved as a TAX. An effing TAX. The ignorance of this country IS AMAZING. Whether health care will actually help is completely beyond the question, because none of us can see the future. And people arguing whether Obama intended it to be a tax or not is completely irrelevant, because now IT IS A TAX and Obama will gladly go through with it AS A TAX which means he does not stick to the truth or to his intentions. Brainwashed America, good job.

Hmmmm...Is that right?

This is the happiest day I have had in a looong time. Shoving health care down republicans throats EVEN FURTHER and collecting a little bet money. Glorious.

sw philly

Oh so you like it when you been paying high insurance premiums and then you get censer and the insurance companies find a way out and does not help you but drops you in stead

Do you understand the 80% of the premiums are to be paid for medical coverage and not parties at Vegas whore houses

As for a big tax hike not so. I just hope the premiums are fair. like between 75.00 to 125.00 per month. Right now my dr bills for the last 6 years has been 0 I have no insurance and will not buy any from the present blood sucking companies

Hello---Geee you are so smart and everybody else is a dullard HUH? You think because they upheld it as a TAX and not because of the interstate commerce clause it magically becomes a tax and it wasn't before ? Or are you one of the ones who think it was hidden and exposed by the court ? Everyone under the sun besides you Fox news cult members was fully aware that there was a tax penalty for not buying insurance for those with a certain income level...That is what the mandate is..Apparently you nuts as usual have been saying you are against something and you don't even know what it is..And if you are not rich or already have insurance it will not affect you anyway...I guess the cult(Fox News) just gave you guys the tax talking point today....Why else do you think everybody on the right was against the mandate ? I guess you peeps new that you were possibly being forced to buy insurance but until today the easily understood talking point about the tax that was making the " FORCING " possible wasn't sinking in? You peeps can only handle one bumper sticker line at a time in your brainwashed mind(Wow I'm a poet and didn't no it)

Thank-you President Obama for saving my Family's Life and the Lives of Undecided Independent Voters, also the poor and downtrodden and all people of color, from all those Domestic Terrorists, and those crazy-wacko Teabaggers, plus Conservatives, and especially gun-toting Neandrethal knuckle-dragging Republicans, and of course Mitt Romney, the wanabe "Outsourcer and Chief" who wants to Destroy the Working and Middle-Class.

To make sure the Republicans never-ever raise their ugly-heads again, we need Everybody, and I mean everybody, to Vote a straight Democratic ticket come this November 2012, to make sure Mitt Romney and his Republicans are regulated to the "Dung Heap of History", where they rightfully belong!

Remember Mitt Romney's party is the party of George Bush, Dick Cheney, Karl Rove, Haliburton, Blackwater, etc. etc. Did I mention Karl Rove?

That should be enough to get anybody and everybody, to Vote a straight Democratic ticket, come this November 2012. Wouldn't you all Agree?

Fender-----We really don't need you insults directed at people personally .....And yes Obama did campaign on both health care reform and economic stimulus and even though you didn't mention solyndra he also campaigned on low interest or even 0% interest loans and tax breaks for green energy development....What is Romney campaigning on besides " It is either me or blacky McBlackman"??????

Under this act my brother who is in grad school can stay on my parents insurance

My daughter who has a pre-existing life long condition cannot be denied service.

My sister that has a very low income will have help paying for health insurance for her family ( which she could absolutely not afford before)

Hospitals will have less issues when treating people that refuse ( or can't) carry insurance or pay.

We are the only civilized nation in the world that does not have universal care.

My husband mentioned to me that because of our income we will be taxed around 2.3 percent more. I think that is a small price to pay to live in a civilized society where our poor, our children and our elderly are treated humanly. All American citizens deserve good basic health care

MJ numbers-----I am guessing you meant Cancer when you typed censer or whatever? And yes I am all for the 80% clause and the pre-existing clause and the hopes of lower premiums and all of the rest of the good stuff...Even the Mandate since it only affects wealthy people anyway.....I don't understand where you got that I am not from...The only thing I am saying is that the Affordable Care Act didn't go near far enough....I want even more socialized medicine than they have in Canada...I think since we are the greatest country we can come up with the greatest system in the world...We already have the infrastructure in place ( Medical schools like Johns Hopkins, technology like MRI's and the great hospitals and best doctors ) we just need the government to organize an deliver to all not just the rich.....I am all for capitalism and profits for other things but not when it comes to life and death ie; Food,basic shelter,healthcare and taking care of the old and infirm.....This is what Jesus would do

Hmmm...It is a win though to me whenever Hannity is pissed..

fenderbluesjr -- Wow, a little road rage there?

Actually I am against the mandate along with many other progressives who understand the real solution is Medicare for all. sw philly is correct that giving insurance companies more business, especially without public option competition, is not a win for anyone but the insurance companies -- Though the mandate is not enforceable and those who can't afford it will be exempt.

Still, millions will remain uninsured, and only single payer will provide true Universal healthcare. ACA is better then nothing for now. But that's why a public option, single payer, "Medicare for all" is the next step.

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL,

I personally thought that Verrilli did a fine job in his presentation. Let's face it, he (including Congress and Obama) deliver the goods. The brought home the bacon, cooked and served it well.

This may go down as the most important Supreme Court case in the 21st century, if only because it will effect every American for many, many decades to come.

Not bad for the first four years.

Kallie---Your husband misinformed you...There is no 2.3% tax in this bill...Only a tax penalty for those that are wealthy and Do NOT have insurance...And that is only like $95 dollars the first year and goes up to something like $250 in two years( My numbers aren't exactly correct but you can look it up,they are very close though and close enough to make my point) And as of yet there are not tax increases to pay for any of it.....If Obama is re-elected and has his way though there will be tax increases on the top 1% and if you are in the top 1% I have no pity for you.....The bottom 99% has seen our income flat line for the past twenty+ years while you guys have had tax breaks that equal my yearly salary and your income has steadily grown.....So it is time to pay the piper for your class war that you 1%ers have been winning and we haven't even fought yet....If Obama raises those taxes it will be a win in the first battle we have engaged in....You see the Class War was started by King Reagan and fought hard by King George Bush II....

Happy ACA day Fiesty Redhead ;)

Hope for the best, prepare for the worst...but we won...

fenderbluesjr,

Wow! My might want to cut back on the coffee a bit. Ok, I understand you are upset that the ACA was upheld, and that Roberts bailed on your party, this time anyway. Might even keep you up all weekend long over this loss.

Dear Republicans - It stings the sole doesn't it?

The reason this hurts so bad is;

1) this is what happens when all Republicans all drink the same Cool-Aid (Fox Noise) and

2) all of you get emotionally invested in your position that when the cold hard facts of law hit you upside the head like a 2x4, you get surprised.

Here's the deal. Your side lost. You lost fair and square. Nobody cheated, nobody paid anybody off. It could easily have gone the other way, but it didn't. This is now the law of the land, there is no longer anything that can be done about it. Repeal will fail because America is burned out on this issue.

So, just like we had to do in 2000, you lick your wounds, pick yourselves up by the bootstraps and move along, because there is nothing to see here any more.

This fight is over and has been decided. Read it, learn it, live it.

... That's a classic; I may shamelessly recycle that one someday

OH - so did I - which pissed me off even more with all of the naysayers & the weeks of hand-wringing for NOTHING! ;o)

Happy ACA day Fiesty Redhead ;)

Right back atcha my friend - I have been walking on clouds all day long!

I'm fired UP and ready to GO - how about you?

FIST READ'S employee FEISTY (Fishy) is at it again =-- inside info as to every article so she can take the #1 spot. It is so obvious, I cannot believe that First Run has not changed her name,

BTW: How does one event (SCOTUS upholding Obama Care) justify 6 Articles. MSNBC should simply report the news and stay away from the liberal propaganda,

Reporting from the progressive bunker in Dixie. First came the howling, then the sound of moonshine hitting gullets, then the "where's my shotgun". After our 'Perrier toast and commie happy dance', we checked on our kin folk. Through sobs, some whispered when can I get coverage?

In November the bunkers will be full. Many southerners will vote for the health and prosperity of themselves. Many still hate "that" president. They hate their unemployment and lack of medical care more.

Proud southern progressive, for Obama/Biden 2012.

Nothing wrong to be cautious.

Let's see now;

The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office now says that Obamacare, which was supposed to be 'revenue neutral', will likely cost $1.7 Trillion, so who's going to pay for it?

The 'rich'? No, because they already have health insurance, so they don't have to pay the fine/tax.

The 'poor'? No, because they get free health insurance from the government thru Medicaid.

Let's see now, who's left to pay for it? Oh yes - the Middle Class. This could be the biggest tax increase in history on the Middle Class.

When they find they've been 'snookered' by Obama, I doubt that they will be very happy.

Remember how Obama said "I pledge that any families making less than $250,000 per year will not have to pay any increased taxes - not one dime"? Well guess what - the Supreme Court says Obamacare is OK because it's a TAX.

Remember this in November.

fender. you need to read what you wrote. You seem to think people compare Obama to Christ. A lot of things that President Obama tried to do is what JC would have done. JC was against the rich having so much and so many doing without. JC was like Robin Hood. I seem to remember the saying a few years back. "WWJD" If everyone would just do the right thing, Or what Jesus would do, we wouldn't have the problems we have. Do you really think Mitten has done what Jesus would have done. Steal peoples retirement money and push them off for the tax payers to pay for. That is what Bain capital was all about. Steal from the poor and give to the rich. Mitt is robin hood in reverse. He don't know how to make a honest living. He didn't not make his money honestly. He for the most part stole it. Is that ok to you. I bet it wouldn't have been if it was your money he stole. Being rich don't make it right to steal someones retirement. Is that what Jesus would have done? Hell no and you know it.

People consistently post uninformed opinions. This was not a Democrat win, it is an American win. Republicans, Independents, and Democrats will all reap the benefits of this legislation.

Sure, it is a terrible socialistic attack... until you get cancer.

It is a Marxist law... until the kid turns 21 , in college, and needs a broken arm tended to.

We lost America to Commies... until the pimple you had on your butt when you were six doesn't stop you from having health care.

ROY WILSON-336103 is worried about who pays. An inconsequential concern; people already pay for it. The money went straight into the health insures coffer and medical bills belonging to the recently dumped insured be damned.

Today is now the past. This debate is over. Efforts must be made to improve this legislation. It is the first giant leap of mankind in this country and in this time.

After 163 republican amendments to this bill, we can not deny the fingerprints of evidence that this was a bipartisan effort.

Now, we need to get rid of the watered down legislation republicans added to it.

Fenderblue...wrote..."Jesus is the son of God. He and only He can turn water into wine,"

Well I guess my Dad was Jesus then. Dad used to make wine in big glass jugs in his basement. Dandelion wine was the last one I saw labeled on a jug that my alcoholic brother in law walked off with. Dad used to talk to God very loudly every time he was hammering nails.

The cable news networks originally broadcast erroneous information, ...and this surprises who?

The only surprise would be their correcting the information later, rather than doubling-down on dissembling, spin and distortion.

"Fair and Balanced"? Yeah, right.

"Fair" is the grade (eg., Superior, Excellent, Very Good, Good, Average, Fair)

"Balanced" = Precriously close to falling.

You all think it is so @!$%#ing simple. Guess what I have health insurance through my work. It is called a high deductible health plan with an HSA (health savings account). My wife has hers through her work. Those health insurance plans are not good enough for the Obomocare. Why? Because obomocare wants us to pay for a more expensive healthcare plan to help subsidize the welfare trash so they can get their health insurance for free.

So all you liberal morons just because you think you are smart you aren't. This law will have so many bad (unintended - liberals will say) consequences. "Oh I didn't expect that to happen or this to happen, it is not my fault, it shouldn't have happened but it just did, oh well, I'm not paying nothing."

Feisty Redhead Roselle, ILRestored

That will teach the White House to watch CNN & Fox! LOL

Again, from the poll you yourself told us about, those who ONLY watch Fox News (not the people reading this site) were in last place. Those who ONLY watch MSNBC were 2nd to last with a whopping 2% better score.

Bosslimo

People consistently post uninformed opinions. This was not a Democrat win, it is an American win. Republicans, Independents, and Democrats will all reap the benefits of this legislation.

This bill isn't all "benefits". It's 2,000 pages of laws and taxes in which even people like Feisty can only mention about 6 items that people like. Let's just see what happens in 2014 when those living paycheck to paycheck just barely above poverty & eligibility for welfare suddenly have to pay hundreds per month for insurance + the cost of a brand new beaurocracy that will cost billions annually to run. Children today are already born in debt $50,000+ to pay off the national debt. This added even more to it. I feel sorry for them. In the name of US getting something "free", they'll pay through the nose.

Besides, I think the person who benefits most from this is Romney. I don't care much for the guy, but he just suddenly got a few million more votes from those who know they can't afford this.

" ....Besides, I think the person who benefits most from this is Romney. I don't care much for the guy, but he just suddenly got a few million more votes from those who know they can't afford this."

Allen, not so fast there, Buckaroo. Mitt Romney has gone to great lengths to distance his Massachusetts health plan from the federal law, even giving a PowerPoint presentation to emphasize the differences. But the truth is that there are an awful lot of similarities between the plan he signed in Massachusetts in 2006, often called "RomneyCare," and the one that President Barack Obama signed in 2010, dubbed "ObamaCare."

Both leave in place the major insurance systems: employer-provided insurance, Medicare for seniors and Medicaid for the poor. They seek to reduce the number of uninsured by expanding Medicaid and by offering tax breaks to help moderate income people buy insurance. People are required to buy insurance or pay a penalty, a mechanism called the "individual mandate." And companies that don't offer insurance have to pay fines, with exceptions for small business and a few other cases.

The American voters may be uninformed, but they are not stupid. Once a few million dollars are spent over the coming five months showing the voters that Romneycare is Obama care, the voters will know definitively who is speaking out of both sides of his mouth and running away from all of his previous positions and policies (as if there was still a grain of doubt)

Sure Starsailing . . I'm sure your father was Jesus. You really are OUT OF YOUR MIND!!!

PolitiFact Texas: The health care bill that President Barack Obama signed is like the one Mitt Romney signed as the governor of Massachusetts

http://www.politifact.com/texas/statements/2010/dec/05/howard-dean/dean-howard-says-health-care-bill-prseident-barack/

PolitiFact.com: Senate health care bill similar to law in Massachusetts

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/feb/04/paul-krugman/krugman-calls-senate-health-care-bill-similar-law-/

You Romney enthusiasts and apologists can spin this any way you wish -- and of course you will, because above all else you hate President Obama -- but by election day the truth will rule the day. American voters will absolutely see Mitt Romney for what he is; a pandering opportunist who will say absolutely whatever he thinks he needs to say in order to attain his personal ambitions (truth be damned).

The Horn of the Left Flank Bellows in finding the GOP's hidden encampment, just on the other side of the mountain. Look there just through the crack in the rock and see their camp and their next move against America.

Now look atop the plateau and see the glint of helmets as the archers stand at the ready.

The GOP has been poised for a very large defeat. Obama Care leaves open the ability of GOP employers to deny Americans position of employment based on their siding with Obama Care.
They will obtain this information through Americans using the Library and free WiFi services that are owned by the GOP or GOP backers. Such information will be disseminated into the community at large through word of mouth and emails.
Once enough of the community has been told what is going on the GOP employer will have reason not to hire the American and after hiring them and their not being turned to the GOP's side of the House they will be harassed to the point of either striking out at the GOP member, change their politics to that of the GOP to retain their job or merely quit.

This will come in the form when the American is down and out on their luck and given the choice of working or being unemployed they will be forced to side with the GOP recanting their vote for Obama and support of Obama Care.

Such groups will monitor internet traffic of the American and will also let them know that it wasn't them, the GOP, who caused the American to be fined for not having health insurance but instead it was President Obama and all of those who supported Obama Care which will make America stronger as well as reducing the loss that hospitals lose every year. The GOP means to run those who use public internet services away from such places so they will not know what is happening but instead will be brainwashed by those who hate President Obama and his Obama Care because such hate is their job.

In 2004 hospitals across America lost 125 billion dollars because of the uninsured. In order for hospitals to keep operating taxes must be increased otherwise the hospital is shut down.

Illegal immigrants cost America $100 billion dollars a year combined together with the uninsured that equates to a quarter of a trillion dollars that gets added to the deficit every year.

The GOP is counting on Americans being uninsured so they can make them join their side just to pay the fine for not being insured.

The GOP would then say "See if you would never have supported Obama Care then you wouldn't be in the financial mess you are in. Join our side and help us repeal Obama Care and you be free....as long as you allow yourself to be told how to live and by the GOP's religion is the religion that you will live by."

Obama Care will make certain that taxes are not raised to offset the loss that hospitals equate each year.

Now if Obama Care can be amended to make illegal immigrants pay for healthcare then those two deficits will be conquered.

If 30 million Americans pay $100 a month for a year that is $1200 a year x 30 million equals 36 trillion dollars if I have done the math correctly.

Even if such insurance is is only $50.00 a month that equals 18 trillion dollars a year that is brought in.

Just think if Obama Care is able to get illegal immigrants insured.

Look at Obama Care for the good it will do.

Archers ----- LOOSE!

ROY WILSON-336103

Let's see now; The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office now says that Obamacare, which was supposed to be 'revenue neutral', will likely cost $1.7 Trillion, so who's going to pay for it?

The 'rich'? No, because they already have health insurance, so they don't have to pay the fine/tax.

The 'poor'? No, because they get free health insurance from the government thru Medicaid.

Let's see now, who's left to pay for it? Oh yes - the Middle Class. This could be the biggest tax increase in history on the Middle Class.

Bet you're oh so happy that Roberts gave you a talking point. Roberts. ONE Justice.

But even so, call it a tax if you wish. The reality is that if you chose not to take advantage of the many options now available to you to get health insurance... and, instead, chose to gamble with other people's money on your own health, then you get to pay a penalty roughly equivalent to the damage you cause others. Sounds fair to me.

The CBO scores nothing for potential cost savings that will certainly come to bare when the cost commissions and advisory councils do their work. The CBO has as much a clue as anyone about how much health care would continue to spiral upwards if we did nothing... NOTHING, as your dear party wants to do.

It's amazing to me, Roy, that you so willingly buy into the flips and flops your party performs in their effort to make Obama and this country fail. Asking people to be more responsible is a GOP basic, isn't it? Having the mandate was a GOP originated idea, wasn't it? Getting control of spiraling health care costs to improve our economy and personal well being seems to be in all our best interest, aren't they?

No. Not if it means Obama wins.

Sometimes I honestly wish we could divide the nation along political lines as far as health Care goes, so that the Republicans can have what thery want. No mandate, no coverage for Republican Poor, and those same Republican Poor folks turned away at hospitals when they cannot show coverage or afford their care. Can you imagine the cries of foul play then?

Now, Bob, you are making less and less sense. They are simply reporting the facts. Let's see if you can make the effort to be gracious about this.

Congratulations, Mr. President.

meanwhile FOX was sucking on a Cheney like substance.

hey bob- at the time of the announcement i switched to fox, but they were too busy interviewing Murdoch.Fair and balanced- right

What is LOST in today's decision to Uphold the HealthCareReform(ACA)is the FACT, that Republican Congressional Members are MISSING IN ACTION, when History Books tell the Story of this Historic Day!

No Republican will EVER be Credited with being on the Right Side of the History Books, in Passing ACA!

ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO,ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shall I Call the WhAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAbulance for ALL republicans?

You Betcha !

Occupy SoggyBottom!

Gingerbread Mamma

Methinks it's time the FCC changes FOX NOISE's licence to entertainment

Beverly in Chicago

Gingerbread Mamma

Methinks it's time the FCC changes FOX NOISE's licence to entertainment .....

Exactly why FOX could not get a licence as a news channel in Canada.

Exactly why FOX could not get a licence as a news channel in Canada.

You guys up there know your @!$%#! ;o)

While they're at it, change The Daily Show/Colbert Report to a news hour.

The Fast and the Furious 6 (2013)

Plot unknown

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1905041/

Although Darrel Issa along with FOX & FIENDS are rumored to be outwitted in the upcoming Film.

Got that FOX NOISE & TNN CNN?

What will happen to Medicaid?

We therefore urge HHS to go full speed ahead on the Capitated Financial Alignment Demonstration that tests the payment and delivery system models for Medicare/Medicaid dual eligibles via enrollment in managed care plans. Unlike the care coordination that Medicaid health plans can offer this unique population, we believe the fragmented fee-for-service delivery system is failing Medicare-Medicaid enrollees and is fiscally unsustainable for both the federal and state governments.

"However, we must reiterate that the ACA-mandated $8 billion annual fee on the health insurance industry in 2014, which gradually increases over time, should be repealed. According to a study by Milliman, Inc., an actuarial firm, approximately one-sixth of this fee will be placed on Medicaid health plans, but because of federal actuarial soundness requirements, will be paid entirely by state Medicaid programs, already financially-strapped even without the upcoming Medicaid expansion. Milliman's estimates show that the cost to states will be about $13.6 billion over the first ten years. Because state Medicaid programs are jointly funded by the federal and state governments, the fee will not only result in a large loss for state governments, but also amounts to the federal government taxing itself. This misguided policy hurts state Medicaid programs and Medicaid managed care programs and should not have been even considered.

sacbee.com

Read more here: #storylink=cpy

Holly-457482

While they're at it, change The Daily Show/Colbert Report to a news hour.

That is not a bad idea. Those two comedians give a more succinct account than FOX & CNN!!!

Feisty ... You guys up there know your @!$%#! ;o)

Feisty ... we know it stinks even before it hits the fan ... duck is not only a soup up here.

thetotas

What will happen to Medicaid?

This misguided policy hurts state Medicaid programs and Medicaid managed care programs and should not have been even considered.

I find it entirely selfish and vindictive you wouldn't want seniors, children and the disabled to recieve healthcare.

The Medicaid expansion is limited, but not invalidated, the court found. In short, it decided that if a state does not expand the Medicaid program, as required by the law, the federal government cannot withhold Medicaid funds.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2012/06/28/507940/breaking-supreme-court-upholds-individual-mandate-as-a-tax/

Medicare clause limited" needs to be changed to "Medicaid clause limited." Medicare is for seniors, medicaid is for the poor. I love the BBC

What?

It is my opinion that the decision today was a stealth hit on Obama. I believe Judge Roberts is a literal genius. I know conservatives wanted Obama care struck down to slap Obama right in the face, but.....

Much more damage was done to Obama by Roberts if you will only look past the initial decision. Roberts placed Obamacare in the hands of the states. If they don't want to participate in it, the federal government cannot penalize the state. You really need to wade into the decision to see how this hurts the precept of the law. This is not a victory for Obama.

Brianb

Fear-mongering

Lying

Spinning like a crazy top

Brianb, I told you a thousand million times, don't exaggerate!

It's only an exaggeration to those who don't see the act for what it is. I can't help it liberals believe in all Obama has done while being deceived. Don't think you've been deceived? In 2008 he said he would NOT raise taxes on the middle class. That may have been somewhat true until this very day when the SCOTUS declared Obamacare to be a tax. Very interesting... largest tax increase on the middle class in history. You can thank your pontificate for this now do you think he'll be true to his word and cancel Obamacare? Not from what I heard him speak today. He's actually proud that it was upheld, but I don't think even he sees what the decision amounts to. If you don't think the other things I've posted are true... just wait. We are talking about the government, not some benign privately owned business. I really do applaud Justice Roberts for what he did! Liberals do not understand exactly what he did. They think Obama won... better think again.

Thousand million.... ROFL!!! You are a hoot Forrest... didn't think I caught that one, did you? LOL!

BrianB- You didn't actually say "death panels" did you? Ladies and gentlemen we have the idiot Sarah Palin in our midst! What a stupid post!

Not only did Obama win, the country won too!

The death panel thing was debunked several years ago...

Death panels are real: just look at death rows in Texas, Alabama, Georg...........ooops.

Never mind. Those are the death panel programs for black men or the unlucky poor white fella. Sorry, the Dixie commie bunker was stocked with oxycontin instead of oxygen.

So how come it's understandable that Obama could be tricked by misinformation from the press, but Holder cannot have been misled by rogue subordinates? I think when the whole story gets out, it will scandalize a lot of people

CNN, actually. Not impressed, CNN. Not impressed.

That is as close to "Fair and Balanced" as he will ever get...

CNN AND FOX got it wrong...but then, when they saw John ROberts had written the majority report..they naturally assumed ...well you know, and of course assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME...but in this case....FOX and CNN... which isn't really very hard to do.

It's constitutional, bitches!

as was I , and msnbc on the other.. now I wonder if those bloviated idiot republicans will lick there wounds and go on of continue to make assEs of them selves.. only time will tell.. waiting for Romney to say something that has teeth with some REAL facts

When you start reading the opinion, the first two methods they tried to uphold it by were denied. Only that third part, counting the penalty as a tax, held any water for Roberts. It's pretty easy to miss that.

GREAT..... Heath Care for EVERYONE !!!

Now try to find a doctor.... Libs NEVER consider the "unintended consequenses"

The research, conducted by Merritt Hawkins, a national physician search and consulting firm, on behalf of the Foundation, comes on the two-year anniversary of the Foundation’s first national physician survey that found growing dissatisfaction among doctors as they struggle with less time for patient care and increased time dealing with non-clinical paperwork, difficulty receiving reimbursement and burdensome government regulations. The new research reinforces those findings and shows that the new health care reform could intensify existing problems for doctors and worsen the shortage of primary care doctors, making it more difficult for patients to access quality care.

Here are some specifics:

• The majority of physicians (60%) said health reform will compel them to close or significantly restrict their practices to certain categories of patients. Of these, 93% said they will be forced to close or significantly restrict their practices to Medicaid patients, while 87% said they would be forced to close or significantly restrict their practices to Medicare patients.

• 40% of physicians said they would drop out of patient care in the next one to three years, either by retiring, seeking a non-clinical job within healthcare, or by seeking a non-healthcare related job.

• The majority of physicians (59%) said health reform will cause them to spend less time with patients.

On the details of the law, one aide stressed that some estimates show less than one percent of people will end up having to pay -- what’s now been labeled by the court as -- the health-care tax.

If you and the other RWNJ's would bother to look at the facts as re-iterated in this article you might not look so foolish all the time.

I sort of feel sorry for you Bob. It must be depressing to awake everyday and see the prospect of the day in such a dismal light. Your glass half empty attitude is pathetic at best.

Bob-

I do give you props for showing up and posting after the loss this morning, but surely you have something better to offer than that?

It sounds like most people haven't read the full opinion yet. Make sure you read Ginsburg's exremely well-written opinion, joined by Sotomayor, Breyer and Kagan. These four Justices joined in an opinion which concurred in part and dissented in part. Most importantly, all of the majority except Roberts hold that the ACA is a proper use of the Commerce Clause. In other words, 5-4 that it's Constitutional, 4-5 that it's Constitutional under the Commerce Clause.

A lot of people seem to think all nine Justices agreed with Roberts about his Commerce Clause holding in the majority opinion. It is far too long and chock full of interesting comments, but to pick out a few:

"The Chief Justice defines the health-care market as including only those transactions that will occur either in the next instant or within some (unspecified) proximity to the next instant. But Congress could reasonably have viewed the market from a long-term perspective, encompassing all transactions virtually certain to occur over the next decade,...not just those occurring here and now."

The concurring opinion then cites Wicker, to support the "proposition that Congress may dictate the conduct of an individual today because of prophesied future activity." I haven't read Wicker, but it involved a penalty against a farmer who grew more wheat than he was permitted to grow under the Agricultural Adjustment Act of 1938

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Sections/NEWS/scotus_opinion_on_ACA_from_msnbc.com.pdf

The point is, you can't really understand the opinion without reading the entire thing. Also, you need to skip the first six pages, which is just the syllabus, to get to the actual opinion.

TNSEVOL - Bob has just totally lost his mind. It's useless to try to discuss anything relevant with him!

He's just pissed because Obama was bamboozled just like he was.

Obama was misinformed by CNN and Bob was misinformed by Fox

How did that Euphoric high to a dismal low in a matter of seconds effect you Bob, should we call the paramedics or are OK.

MANDATE STRUCK DOWN

40 Seconds later

MANDATE UPHELD Ouch did that leave a mark.

Who cares...it's constitutional..now the Congress needs to get down and start fixing the parts that are not good policy...what are the chances of THAT happening? Slim and none. p.s. Johnny, this is not a tax increse in the middle class OR the poor...it is a tax on those who choose to not get insurance...kind of like the people who choose not to get auto insurance, or fire insurance or....insurance in general, which apparently, will effect 1% of the populations...wonder what 1% THAT may be? I'm guessing it's the 1% who have enought money to pay for their own health care...no matter HOW expensive it may get.

The largest tax increase on deadbeats who prefer everybody else pay for their healthcare.

There will be subsidy's for low income so they can go to a doctor instead of the E.R.

I think we know who the real DUMBO is stand up and be counted Johnny.

The REAL reason that the insurance industry and very wealthy have opposed this bill is due to two little provisions...one requires insurance company's to limit their adminstrative costs to only 20% with 80% going to pay for providing health care and the second provision? Requires the CEO's and wealthy who recieve bonuses as part of their incomes, to pay the same % into medicare as the working middle class must pay for their wages. Oh, by the way, the administrative costs for SS, SSDI, Medicaid and Medicare run somewhere between 2 and 3 %, this is also why insurance industry opposed a single payer option.

The Health Care Tax idea was an alternative argument to the Comerce Clause offered by Verilli for the court to consider.

mmmmmmmmmmmm interesting.. have you read the entire bill.. yes Ihave and truly that u are a minacal idot that lives in a state that should leave the usa union and become a country of your own.. you have no trouble taking gov money at any time.. but when a great bill is passed you suddenly have one of those OPTORECTOMY and have a crappy outlook .. chin up there is a lot more to come.

JOHNNY N

do us all a favor.. you can get the almost 2,500 pages online take a b reather from being a bitcher and read thw law.. you could get BONER to help you but he only reads at the 7th grade level.. you could tell him,, what the words are.. also where people got this tax thing except from romney and his band of liars but it's false and I mean false.. so read get informed and stop listeing know what u r talking about

PatIowa-2042516, Thank you. I've been reading all over the web how this a tax increase on the poor. I don't believe there are that many people who are that stupid. Evidently, there are plenty with absolutely no morals when it comes to spreading downright lies in support of the Grand Old Party.

Nomore...

Facts from FR? LOL. Better facts were provided on the nbcpolitical blog issued before first read's posting.

Based on such a low bar being set for this "tax" penalty (<$100 the first year and with small increments thereafter until it maxes out) then based on the IRS not likely going after the violators the individual mandate seems to be quite superfulous. Even at the maximum penalty, why would many who are healthy want to pay a higher yearly premium than the penalty? Just in case?

pat of iowa...

The fact that employers are now required to seperate out what they pay for employee medical coverage on said employees W-2, box 12 implies that the IRS will consider this as earned income and subject to an income tax. What remains to be seen is how soon the IRS will start collecting and from whom. From the employer pov it is still a part of their "cost of doing business". To the individual taxpayer it can easily become a liability.

Maxgiver...

So you read all 2500 pages of the passed bill? How exciting! Now read all the regs generated that defines the actual laws and exceptions that everyone must meet to be in compliance. Pretty sure that the actual regs will far exceed 2500 pages and that a competent lawyer will take exception to many of them.

I would imagine that there will be quite a few "if this, then this..." clauses. IE the legislative bill is the bones and the regulators apply the muscle and flesh.

Maxgiver

Just like you write at the 7th grade level. Telling people that you read the 2,000 plus pages of this is bullsh!t!. Hell, no one else that read this, could understand it, but you could? Don't flatter yourself.

Worried for all those calling MSNBC and FR on their "lies and propaganda".

In honor of ACA day: save your hearts: Faux news has 'facts' that will prevent teabagger heart attacks.

Be well righties.

Bobmike-

Social Security is NOT unfunded! It has been and will be solvent for several years once the government pays back the surplus they "borrowed" over the years. Even in the longer term Social Security funding issues could easily resolved by raising the "salary cap" a few dollars.

And you do know the "tax" is only on those who do not purchase health insurance, right?

And taxes do go down sometimes -

Usually only if you are wealthy and a Republican is in office.......

I totally agree. Well said. You took the words right out of my mouth.

Oops - underfunded. So, TNSEVOL, what's to stop "them" from borrowing from this fund as well? And, when your company drops its coverage (since a government alternative is available to help them increase their profit margin), guess what you will pay for coverage - money you didn't have to pay previously, either as a tax or to purchase commercially available insurance. Finally calling it a "raising of the salary cap" doesn't do it justice - it would be a tax increase! Nice proposal, great idea!

bobmike-

No offense meant but it seems like you don't understand how the ACA works. Employers offer health insurance now not "out of the kindness of their hearts" but in order to remain competitive in the job market. Why would that change?

I believe the ACA mandates that employers above a certain level of employees must offer health insurance. I can choose to purchase the insurance they offer or OR purchase my own from an exchange or on the open market.

And if I am currently paying my portion of my health insurance, why would it be "money I didn't have previously"?

The "salary cap" was mentioned as a way to fund Social Security, extending the same payroll tax percentage to a higher ceiling of wages. You claim Social Security is either "unfunded" or "underfunded". Currently it is neither, and the future can be easily fixed.

I can tell you from personal experience this Bill is already effecting people. I had to go to the Doctor recently, and was in terrible pain, and they only had the painkiller Toradol to give me. I only have one kidney, and that is one of the worst medication for your kidney. I asked them for something else, and they told me thats all they had. We have a serious problem with drug shortages, and nothing is being done to fix the problem. It won't matter if you have great insurance, if we don't have enough drugs, nurses and Doctor's to take care of all the new people being added. We don't have enough Doctors now, and not many people want to be Doctors because of this bill. The other problem is a lot of Doctors aren't taking new patients, so our emergency rooms will be even more packed. We do need reform, but this isn't the kind of reform that will benefit anyone.

tnsevol - I hear what you're saying, but that's the way it's intended to work. How often has that happened with government programs? Only by accident, I would bet. It's human nature, not to mention historically accurate, to note that people will take advantage of and abuse this at all levels, rich and poor. It's inevitable. Call me a cynic, but what ever happened to personal responsibility?

Tnesvol, SS not in trouble? Perhaps not in my lifetime or yours, but why do the SS trustees state that after 2032 or 2033 they will only be able to pay out 75% of what was earned? Found this out by visiting SS.gov and checking out my retirement payout options.

Like bobmike observed, has government ever followed through with what they say 100% of the time?

@ Sadie: I would change doctors if I were you. Can I assume that this may be your regular doctor? If so, your doctor is doing a poor job with his patients. He/she should be aware of your medical needs and what drugs you can and cannot take. I would also wonder that your doctor pushes toradol because of the big kick back he gets from pushing it onto his patients. As far as everything else you say, I think you need to find another news outlet. You and those like you are being fed some seriously truth bending information, not to mention making vulnerable people such as yourself to feel all this doom and that the sky is falling. Don't you realize that now that more people will be able to afford health insurance there will be a need for more medical professionals to be hired, larger offices to be procured, more jobs in the medical profession? this is not a bad thing, is it?

AlaskaGirl

How do you figure that, when a hell of a lot of doctors stopped taking Medicaid years ago? Not to mention that more have been dropping it over the years.

Another question: Since Medicaid most certainly doesn't cover total bill payments, who is going to end up paying for the billions in outstanding balances? This is an incentive for doctors?? What, to lose money to people who can't pay what Medicaid won't?!

13: Doctors have been consolidating their practices for years now. I worked in a hospital and never had a patient come in who's doctor did not take Medicaid payments. Since that is the basis of most of their income, they would be cutting off their noses to spite their faces. Please get some real info before you post. What doctors have dropped Medicaid, Name names, so we all on Medicaid know who NOT to call.

Who pays when an uninsured goes to the ER? The government? Guess who that is!!!!

HEY, to anyone who can clarify for me the ramifications of this as far as "penalties" are concerned ----- Am I to understand that the federal government has no way to "enforce" the tax, as in not being allowed to attach any type of lien or attach any private property ? Does EACH STATE have the right to follow or decline implementation of the new policy? Also, the feds cannot jail anyone for refusing to pay the "tax" ? If anyone refuses to pay the "penalty" are they then denied coverage whatsoever ? Would a medical facility still have to take me in for treatment ? If so, what has been gained ? I am not to clear on just what we have ACTUALLY WON ! PLEASE --- No quoting from that character who throws a football around. Thank you.

I think when it was called a penalty it was not enforceable by law, but since it now deemed a tax it is as enforceable as any other tax.

I'm at work and haven't been able to sort it all out.

Thank you for your service DisabledVeteran.

I still can't understand why there was so much opposition to this plan.

That's an easy one. It was proposed by President Obama.

"Another fine mess" Obama has created. Epic Fail and GONE in November.

justoneguy - not a chance. However, we WILL vote out as many of the GOP as possible so we can get things done!

DisabledVet

To answer a few of your questions from what I know. At THIS time the gov. does not have the means to enforce the tax. It will be the job of the IRS to get the money which will start in 2014. If you don't buy coverage you will pay a penalty for not buying coverage. This fine will become larger each year you don't have coverage. Can the IRS put a lien on your property or funds because of this I would say yes because the insurance payment is not an insurance premium but according to SCOTUS it is a tax therefore you would not be paying your taxes. Can a hospital refuse you treatment because you don't have insurance, at THIS time no...however who knows about later. Each state can decline implementation with no reduction in Medicare payments, however I'm unsure how that would affect an individual if the state you live in refuses implementation. My guess is that you would still have to pay the penalty which would eventually force the state into implementation because of citizens having to pay the penalty.

What you won is a BIG FAT TAX INCREASE

Disabled vet, read what the nbcpolitics reported concerning this tax penalty. Like bbbWi said, it is a progressive penalty that starts at around $94 in 2014 with a maximum of about $700 in 2016. and indexed thereafter based on inflation.

Not really a strong incentive for someone who is healthy to go out and buy insurance to avoid paying the penalty.

http://nbcpolitics.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/06/28/12457822-supreme-court-upholds-health-care-law

Pertinent info is at the end of the article.

I look at it this way , those who die from not having insurance probably vote LIBERAL DEMOCRAT anyways !!! HA !!!!

@ american: I haven't seen any figures yet as to what the "group" coverage that is supposed to be offered will cost for those wishing to get insurance, but as anyone knows, a person can seemingly be healthy and then one day not so much, or they are healthy and wonderful and don't think they need health insurance and get into a bad car accident. The ACA will help people who really want to have health insurance but have never been able to afford it on their own and they maybe work for a small business that doesn't provide them with insurance.

They said the same things about Social Security 70 years ago. We're still here.

Aw, isn't that sweet. You're old AND wrong. And you don't get to dictate when this great nation dies simply because you are conservative and white.

And just to remind you, we already had a civil war and your side lost.

I believe the same argument was made about Civil Rights, Women Voting, etc. - and in the '80s dirty music lyrics were going to be the ruin of us all! I think the advent of Fox News brought us to the brink, though.....

I am confident that if America can survive two terms under GW Bush (barely) we can survive anything!

feel free to leave the "flaming libs". lol. its what you are yearning for. I understand there are some good choices for you out there to choose from.

Yep, old common non-sensedude here seems to be living proof that zealotry is often indistinguishable from mental illness.

No doubt the old boy spend his days poking his cane in the air at imaginary hoodlums and shouting profanities to no one in particular.

commonsensedude-1080861

I fear this is the start of destruction of our great nation.

Of course you do. And when the sky doesn't fall, you'll deny ever making that statement.

commonsensedude - no, splitting us up would never work. You would get the states most in need of government help (red states) and you would always be wanting what we have. Maybe you'll have to morph into the 21st century instead. Try it, we really like it here!

Boy...you are a true leader for your children/grandchildren.

Nothing like grandpa screaming "were all doomed" just because someone convinced him of an imaginary hole in the bottom of the boat. A hole, by the way, that he has not seen, but was told it was there by someone who stands to gain from the panic.

Grow up Grandpa...grow a pair...and put some positive thoughts into this world. Your grandchildren need you to do this.

commonsensedude - How exactly would you propose dividing the nation? would you force emigration for liberals that end up in the conservative section and vice versa? i thought that the civil war era determined that it was better for all to stay as one union, regardless of our differences. If the confederacy had succeeded we certainly wouldn't have the world standing we do today, and the results of WW I & II could have been drastically different, and we'd all be speaking Japanese or German right now...

How does the health care law destroy our nation? I won't say that the Affordable Care Act is a panacea for the problems in the Health Care industry, but it is certainly a good starting point to fix the problems there.

If you ask me, the destruction of this nation will only be caused by corruption and greed. History has shown that the destruction of all nations that come from within (particularly democracies) is primarily due to those two factors.

I'd be glad for your children and grandchildren, knowing that they no longer have to worry about being denied coverage if they develop diabetes or another pre-existing condition. I'm very grateful that my own son (diabetic) will never have to worry about that as long as the ACA is in place.

I can understand not liking the president and the democrat policy platform, but the majority of this law was proposed by republicans who then ran away from the platform due to politics. Health care reform shouldn't be subject to politics, and the policies in the ACA that have been demonized by the right wing are free market, common sense solutions that should be a good starting point to turn this massive problem around. Tort reform - in the bill. No denial for pre-existing conditions - in the bill. Expansion of free market principles for health care - in the bill. extension of coverage for children under their parents plan - in the bill. All of these are positives, and i don't understand what people see so wrong with this.

commonsensedude - we may be closer than you think. Obamacare never does address how to control healthcare costs. Nor does it address copays or deduction limits. Something no one with any type of insurance discounts.

BTW dude, if we split up the libs would always want what the conservatives earned. Heck, right now they even want what wealthy democrats have.

You have a huge libbie victory, when pappy yells secession. Liberals out of the closet here, will have to immigrate to Yankee land. It will be too sad to see our South drown without federal welfare. Please learn to cook edible grits and biscuits, we've suffered enough.

What a response! I didn't get what I want so I want to succeed! Send all those "Others" to the other side.

Let's hope your grandchildren see you as their "wacky ole Granpa"

has Fox News ever had the right headline?

But I did just have to flip it over to FOX and watch the PAIN on all the conservative pundits faces.....deliciuous absolutey delicicious.

Oh, and Boehner, feel free to let the your GOP House members 'spike the ball' , its fine with we liberals ;)

TNSEVOL

has Fox News ever had the right headline?

i think that Fox News always has the 'right' (leaning) headline...

Ron-- you're a breath of fresh air. Thank you.

Ron, quite true. Politicians will always try to spin it in such a way to garner votes, not how to make it better.

I know I'm upset because my health insurance that I've paid for, yet rarely use is going to go up 10-30%, yet coverage has nowhere to go but down.

Then you need to find a better broker bub!

I negotiate the health care coverage for my company and instead of getting hit with a 25-30% increase like we had seen previously each year with BCBS - the last two years averaged only a 13% increase...

Nice try... but no dice!

The story is Juctice Roberts was bullied into changing his vote at the very last minute.

Did Justice Roberts Give in to Bullying?
YES.

If we want good jobs and a bright economic future for ourselves and for our kids, we must replace ObamaCare.

The majority is getting fired up and ready to KICK OBAMA TO THE CURB this November!

The story is Juctice Roberts was bullied into changing his vote at the very last minute.

LOL!

God you gullible idiots will believe anything FOX feeds you! lmao!

I didn't read it on Fox; but thanks I will go there and get the real story........

Striking down the law in its entirety, was once the majority opinion--and that Chief Justice John Roberts switched his vote at a late stage. If so, it would appear that the Chief Justice may have succumbed to the bullying meted out by Barack Obama,

Republican governors vow to ignore Obamacare...

HOUSE GOP INSTANTLY ANNOUNCES REPEAL VOTE FOR WEEK OF JULY 9...

Willing - who bullied Roberts? Please cite your source. Your can't? Gee that's surprising!

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

The story is Juctice Roberts was bullied into changing his vote at the very last minute.

LOL!

God you gullible idiots will believe anything FOX feeds you! lmao!

This coming from the most gullible liberal. Too funny!

Willing - It doesn't matter what the GOP does - they won't repeal Healthcare. Give it up. They just look totally out of touch with reality - shock - by trying!

I'd like to know how a President that faces election (or re-election) every four years can bully a U.S.S.C. Justice that is appointed for life. Does he threaten to rip that robe off and finally prove they are all naked beneath their robes? I could see G.W. doing that as a prank. Not Obama. He knows for sure that Michelle would give him the scolding of his life.

The bottom line is costs will go through the roof. The gummint will invent new creative taxes to extort as much as possible or increase existing taxes to cover it up. It starts in 2013 and really kicks in in 2014. NOTHING has been done to save one dime with this fiasco. Let's help them all join the ranks of the uenemployed.

One word: paragraphs.

One word: Poetry

Mono7yx...

And what lord would that be? Obama?

SCOTUS has made a right decision.

Perhaps... Seems that roberts shot down obamas primary argument that the mandate was justified by the "commerce clause" and he did tell the left, no, no, no on their desire to extort states by witholding medicaid payments.

To help sick people with pre-existing conditions.

and yet, will they be able to afford the coverage and meet the copays and deductibles?

To help people without health insurance.

and yet, will they be able to afford the coverage and meet the copays and deductibles?

Republicans rejoiced when SCOTUS stole the election. And made George Bush the President.

Really? If florida hadn't created 101 ways to use a ballot, the scotus opinion wouldn't have been required.

Who started two wars of revenge. That killed more than 5000 brave Americans. And created many widows, children without parents.

So the victims of 911 shouldn't have been avenged? How droll. Spare us the emotional attempt at logic. Interesting that bush2 got congressional approval from both sides of the aisle, while obama ignored any congressional approval for events happening during the arab spring.

When Bush bankrupted US economy.

Try looking up our historical debt at treasury.gov, Obama is well on the way to outspending bush2, and in only 4 years.

By turning a positive budget into a massive black HOLE.

LOL, Clinton and company still added about $1.1 trillion to our debt. I didn't see anyone from the middle class or poor bitch about the taxcuts bush2 gave them. Or the elderly complain about getting drug coverage. Seems that even the left was quiet as well.

Oh Lord Did you run out of intelligence and humanity?

Apparently when he created you he ran very short.

Republicans rejoiced when Bush curtailed our FREEDOM. By passing Patriot Act and incarcerations w/o appeal.

cool, so why did obama renew it and then pass the NDAA?

But Why are they whining now when SCOTUS has spoken.

You must of never heard about having a "difference of opinion...

To favor the masses and help bring some balance in life.

You must like ignoring polls that say otherwise. BTW - what is balance in life?

I am one of the 99 % who will benefit. By this Health Care program.

Hope you can afford the premiums, copays, and deductables without any government subsidies.

Why are they against the 99% of decent folks?

LOL, by that logic the right could never generate the votes required to get anyone elected.

Please give some common sense to Republicans.

You seem to have more of a need for commonsense and connecting the dots than any republican.

And also some compassion unless you have run out.

We understand compassion very well, where will your compassion be when the government cash runs out? Ever consider looking down the road, rather than just kicking the can down the road?

Rt Wingers thought "Pelvis" was a cousin of Elvis!..True! There was a study done on why rt wingers were so uninformed when it comes to Health issues. So they gave they word association test on medical terms used and here are some of their answers.

Artery.....................Study of paintings

Bacteria..................Back door to cafeteria

Coma....................a punctuation mark

Dilate.....................to live long

Labor pain..............getting hurt at work

Benign...................what you be after 8

Tonya,

Politics. Romney is pandering to the GOP base. Nothing new there.

The GOP must say "up" if the Democrats say "down" in order to separate themselves. They will always take the opposite view, especially during an election year.

I take it you are a democrat who roots for President Obama and Holder just because they are black. Tell me have you actually read this healthcare plan. If you had you would realise this is going to cost you a lot more now. Do you even listen to the news? Obama has put this country in so much debt that you nor your children or your great great grandchildren will ever see the light of day when it comes to paying this money back. And please do not blame all of this on Bush, Obama and the democrats signed off on the borrowing of all of this money just as Bush did and as a matter of fact Obama has borrowed and gave away and wasted more of your tax dollars than the last four administrations. Please give me a break. Holder is guilty as sin.

Tonya, there is no explanation. their own hypocrisy is mind numming.

The only thing that I can think of is the conserv base is so anti American... No safety net for working famlies. no medicare no medicaid. no Chip's program and so on.

they believe only in themselves, kind of like what Somalia is.

Jerry: This country needs the Republicans to start DOING THE RIGHT THING. ATTACKING THE POTUS IS NOT HELPING WE THE PEOPLE. Maybe they should put on their big boy pants and start dealing with serious issues and quit the b.s.....

Jerry-1927474

I take it you are a democrat who roots for President Obama and Holder just because they are black.

Where im Tonyas post is there ANY mention of race? hmmmmmmmmm?

Your white sheet is showing

Jerry - and you're a Republican who didn't vote for President Obama JUST because he's black. See how that works????

You are aware that fast food places don't offer insurance unless it is for the management? The insurance companies will now have to us 80% of the money coming in for the people with the insurance. This is different from now where the majority of the money goes to the ceos and management. Maybe you ought to reread it. I think you are missing a lot of it. There is a website for information on this. Oh and by the way the the republicans are the ones that aren't even trying to do something for the 99%. They only care about the 1% who own them.

the penalty may start out small but if most folk opt for the penalty see how long the penalty stays small

It will cost me...let's see...let me add it up...zero. I don't make a zillion per year. Now, I might be able to get into an emergency room.

It may all backfire come November-- time will tell. What I find ironic is that it's okay, according to some liberals, for me to tell the government "Don't tell me what to do with my body," when I want to kill my child. But it's not okay for me to tell the government, "Don't tell me what to do with my money and my health care. " What if I want to fly without a net? What if I'd rather save the money, and hope I stay healthy? And if I occur bills if I get sick, what's it to the government? Kinda boggles the mind...

Oh well-- Democrats are rejoicing. I think this may just fuel the opposition...I hope it does-- but again, time will tell.

buffaloes-- that's just garbage. We were out of work for two years-- had no health care, save what was provided by my state-- and guess what? We got into the emergency room just fine. This is smoke and mirrors. How do you not see that?

You just proved my point. You used an emergency room as primary care. Never, never, never the intent.

We got into the emergency room just fine.

Maybe Marla can tell us which emergency rooms treat cancer..?

MS...?

Diabetes..?

Funniest part is, Marla is mooching off the very system she is bitching about! Sheesh!

BTW: You're welcome Marla, for MY health-care coverage paying for YOUR dead-beat ass!

Buffaloes Roam.....so who will it cost....someone has to pay for it.

SeekingSanity. I usually don't do this, but for you I can make an exception. I have read most of your posts, and they do nothing but attack others and show how ignorant of the political process and its ramifications you really are. It proves that you are just another mindless member of the flock following where they are told to go. You have yet to give any helpful outlook, aspect, opinion, or in fact have yet to state any relavent fact about the discussion. You are a prime example of the mindless individuals that take their political stance too seriously, you stand up for your party but never stopped and considered your true stance on any of it.

The biggest problem I see in you is trying to mask your social and political ignorance by attacking others. marla stated she was out of a job, and had no insurance, so went to an ER when the help was needed. You attack her because you say those of us with jobs had to pay for that. ARE YOU @!$%#ING STUPID? She had no job...under this act she would have got seen at the ER and the governement would pay for it...which means the same people you were talking about will be paying for it. This bill does nothing but increase that burden. The government is out of money, This bill is going to cost an estimated 1.2 Trillion dollars by 2020...Great plan by Obama, pass a bill we can't afford, force the next president to raise taxes to keep us out of the fire, which in turn will make him/her look bad and send the next election back to his party.

But back to you. I would highly suggest you go download a copy of the constitution and read it before you debate the constitutionality of a law. I would also suggest you figure out what the Hell is going on before you pull up to your keyboard to make a post again.

Feisty, you have not been as ignorant or useless in your comments as Seeking sanity, however your last comment begs the question as to who is going to pay for the new system...that is the same answer as who paid for the old one. The working americans. This new bill solves no healthcare issues, it actually creates them, as now rates will not be nearly as competitive, and will actually skyrocket due to the higher risk to the insurance industry and their bottom line. I have some respect for the points you have made in earlier posts, so instead of attackign you I simpoly ask that you stick to valid arguements and not attck others who simply state facts.

Legalize-the-Constitution - Don't ever lecture someone who is smarter than you - you just look dumber and dumber.

Your ignorance of politics and our constitution as well as the rest of our laws is astounding yet you rush to post it. How totally sad. Your mindless drivel shows how out of touch with reality you are.

You have no relevant facts yet try to talk down to me? You're ridiculous.

Yes, we ALL pay when someone uses the emergency room and doesn't have insurance. Perhaps you should talk to someone in the business so they can explain it to you. Your are @!$%#ING STUPID! All of us pay in higher medical costs when someone without insurance is treated. Do you not understand how this works? Clearly you don't.

The government is out of money because the idiot Bush had two wars - off the books - which we now have to pay for - and he decimated the economy in the process. But, instead of raising taxes on the rich - which would help - the do nothing GOP will protect their sugar daddies at all costs.

We have needed a healthcare bill for decades - the GOP admits this but has not had the balls to put a plan together. They fought every step of the way but could not muster the intelligence to put anything down on paper.

You probably need to get at least a first grade education before you try to argue with someone who clearly has more intelligence than you'll ever have. You DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL is going on but you continue to blather your nonsense for everyone to see.

Maybe you should actually learn something before you chose to post again so you don't look like the fool you clearly are!

We ALL pay when someone is uninsured. And, Feisty is right - the ER doesn't provide ongoing care for cancer, MS, diabetes, etc.

But, intelligent people know that!

We were out of work for two years-- had no health care, save what was provided by my state--

Wonder where the State got the funding for that ...... umm Marla, you owe all of who were working at the time and paying taxes into the system to pay your emergency room bill a thank you. How do you not see that?

Layton - now you've gone and done it. Legalize is about to "school" you on what he (doesn't) know(s)! LOL

Wow seekingSanity, you once again post no relevant facts to the arguement at thand, yet you only attack others to hide your blatent lack of knowledge on the issue. WITH or WITHOUT ACA you will pay for jobless Americans to get healthcare coverage, yes it provides some much needed care such as treatment of cancer and ms and so one, I was not attacking fiesty on statign those facts, instead I was sasking that they do not belittle others for stating a simple fact also.

The government is not broke because of Bush's 2 wars, it is broke because of all the extra BS that gets written into bills like a Wal-mart in Wisconsin or a Museum in California. That all eats away at the tax payers money. You do not for even a second understand the political give and take that goes into a bill. Go educate yourself before you acuse other for not being intelligent or not educating themselves.

You are probably the most i refrained to calling you ignorant and only asking if you were stupid earlier, but your incessant need to open your mouth and talk @!$%# without any relevance to the subject only goes to prove the point that you are in fact a very stupid and closed minded individual.

You insist still that this be about political parties, the GOP and Dems and such. the point I am making to you is they are all the same in the end no matter what they claim or what issues they push. They are only for their party, their grasp for power, their ability to control and get richer. The dems may be a little more learned in the aspects of politics and hide it better, but when the dust settles they are just as corrupt as the othe politicians on capital hill.

If you read my earlier response to your half ass attack upon a simple constitutional fact I had posted, You will see that I agreed that we need healthcare reform in this country. I just do not believe this is the best way. I think it should be repealed, but I think we need to have something better in place before doing so.

As to your question of my intelligence, Who is to say which one of us is "dumber" as you so eloquently put it? All I know is I have brought solid and relevant facts to the American Peoples side of the debate (I say this because I could give a @!$%# less about Dem or GOP or Independent parties). You have yet to provide any facts to support or defend your side of the arguement. All you have done is name call and attack others to the point that I had to stoop to your level to get your attention. Now that I have it, please go read and educate, read all the judges positions on the bill, go read the Constitution, and actually read the ACA. Maybe you will understand why I have the position I have and might actually be able to allow you to have the knowledge base needed to form you own political opinions instead of following a political parties views like so many other mindless Americans.

See Legalize - you might have a leg to stand on if YOU actually posted facts. But, you have none. Just your put downs. My guess is you're actually Kirk - since we haven't seen him around for a while. Pontificating without any proof is what you do best.

You have no solid or even slightly liquid facts - just your opinion which doesn't count for anything.

I've read the ACA and have my opinion based on that. My guess is you haven't even looked it up.

And, the fact that you refer to others who don't have your own opinions as "mindless" pretty much says everything there is to say about you - none of it good!

Always good to see the compassionate, loving, tolerant liberals hard at work attacking who and what they don't understand. Yes, we were out of work. Our state has family care for low income families -- the family care that we paid into for all the years we were working-- and that we pay into now that we're back, gainfully employed. The family care to which we were well entitled since we have been tax paying citizens since the age of 16, with our first job. We didn't mooch the system. We benefited from the system we paid into until my husband was able to secure a job.

I didn't say we sought medical treatment for routine visits at the emergency room-- we were treated for emergencies, obviously. Our state's family care provided an HMO, and we were seen by doctors when we needed routine visits.

Seeking Sanity-- your lack of manners is staggering. I don't usually care, but I'll be reporting you just the same. I'm all for civil discourse, and can conduct myself in a vigorous debate with good manners. Why can't you? Your behavior is disgraceful. Any on your "side" who would align themselves with someone like you, without calling you on your disrespect, should be equally embarrassed.

As for the health care-- time will tell if its everything YOU ballyhoo, or everything we fear. Until then, I will continue to hope that Obama gets his rump roasted in November. Bush wasn't any better. And I'm not sure Romney will, either-- but, Obama must go.

In other words Marla, you have admitted to using the very social safety net you are condemning...

Typical...

we were treated for emergencies,

And what would you have done if you didn't have family care?

Any on your "side" who would align themselves with someone like you,

I'm proud to stand side by side with Seeking Sanity - don't like it babe... tough @!$%#!

You might as well report me too! lmao!

How the hell can you say I don't have facts. I have stated many facts in all my posts. You have yet to state even ONE fact in this entire section. You run off at the mouth and accomplish nothing but making your self look ignorant. If you are actually intelligent you will stop your attacks right here and go educate yourself. You started all the attacks on everyone so stating that I started and continue it is simply the pot calling the kettle black.

Back to the issue at hand and away from the illegitamate arguements coming from the uneducated amatuer political debaters. Todays ruling only goes to show the political influence on an institution that is supposed to be unbiased (FACT). It is not in their power to change a commerce law into a tax law, the proper chain of events is to send the law back to congress, where they would need to change it into a tax law, then back to supreme court for verification (FACT). The supreme courts stance is to find everyway to intepret a law as constitutional which is not their job, their job is to find everyway it is unconstitutional and provide ways for congress to fix the law to make it constitutional before sending it back to the supreme court (FACT). Americans are stuck in politcal parties instead of looking at the big picture of the American public and what is best for us all (opinion).

As for our recent history of back and forths Seekign, I have not added very many facts, but if you refer to the very first string of posts started by Feisty, You will see that my responses were very factual and I never attacked anyone, until you attacked me, and I read all your posts, and you failed to state a valid fact in any of them. Therefore I called you out as stated previously(FACT). So please drop this right here as I am sure no one really cares, but if they were to do a little research out of boredom into our little banter, they would find that I stand firmly on both legs in this debate. Anyways, you have a great day whoever you may be and I wish you well in all your endeavors :) Thanks for the political back and forth as I like to exercise my mind. Maybe next time I can find someone who will actually address my facts and attempt to make counterpoints instead of personal attacks.

Feisty-- I am condemning it for the mandate, first and foremost. If we didn't have family care, we would have incurred massive debt... That's life. Health care is not a civil right. It's a privilege. I'm not like liberals who think everything should be handed to me on a platter. I worked hard and paid into a system that provides coverage for emergency situations. We had one. We used it when we were laid off. It's what the system is for-- not to live on it like those to whom your party panders. We're not the deadbeats who live on it with their hands out-- those are the dopes that support the Democrats. Keep us fat, dumb and happy and don't ask anything of us, and you've got our vote. Disgusting.
It doesn't surprise me that you're of SeekingSanity's ilk. I've seen your posts for quite some time. You're rather proud of yourself. But, while I find you overly rude, aggressive and arrogant, I haven't found you totally out of line. Maybe I just haven't read enough....who knows? I disagree with you vehemently, and think you're part of the problem in our society. There are people on both sides who wouldn't know a polite sentence if it bit them in the arse. Shame you're one of them, from all I've seen. It weakens your point of view, in my opinion-- not that you care. But food for thought, just the same.
Is there a reason people can't respectfully disagree? But, in any event-- I said my peace. Proudly stand next to SeekingSanity-- go for it. It just makes you smell bad.

That's life. Health care is not a civil right. It's a privilege.

Count me out - I couldn't read any further then that statement!

I am SO tired of the I got mine "F' YOU crowd...

You might want to move to Somalia - their government appears to match your desires!

Good luck Marla...

But, in any event-- I said my peace. Proudly stand next to SeekingSanity-- go for it. It just makes you smell bad.

So says someone who choses the tuna scented Summer's Eve!

It's called personal responsibility, Feisty-- why does that make you liberals bristle so much? Nobody owes you anything. Why is it the government's responsibility to provide for you?

And did you mean to spell chooses? Or chose? Either way-- once again you prove my point. I don't think you could have a polite discussion if your life depended on it. I find that sad, and beneath someone who is obviously intelligent.

That's your mission, if you choose to accept it-- conduct yourself with dignity for 24 hours. Kill 'em with kindness. Can you do it?

Marla, I am so sorry for the personal attacks. You had no choice at all in what you did, and you did the right thing for your children. Accept my apologies...liberals go just as far off the rails as some right wingers, and you are obviously bright and articulate. The people calling you a "moron" above were just wrong, wrong, wrong. You made some good points without bad language. (And if that is your child...you have a pretty baby, too.)

Buffaloes-- what a sweet post, thank you. Yes, they were wrong. It's all good. There's enough vitriol on both sides. These are just the mean liberal people. There are plenty of mean conservative ones. Where does it stop?

I'm all for personal responsibility, as I said above. I'm responsible for me and my behavior. Feisty and Sanity are responsible for theirs. I'd love to see them pick up the challenge, however. Do you suppose you can engage in civil discourse, and respectful disagreement for 24 hours? Where does the hate come from? It's sad. Many of us are raising kids in this world-- don't you want better for them than how you behave here?

But, I pontificate-- I wish you all well. I'll continue to disagree as politely as I can. I realize there are passions on both side, but that shouldn't excuse boorish behavior.

Have a great night-- appreciate your kind remarks.

Marla, I have kind of followed Feisty for a while...she can be really nice, too. I think today was a day for high emotion. Have a great night yourself, and if anything good comes out of the legislation, I hope it comes your way, too.

Buffaloes-- I don't doubt for a minute your statement-- like I said above, I've never seen her cross the line like Sanity did. I'm just surprised that anyone can condone it. To be fair, I'll be more diligent on my side, calling out the crap, as well. I'm sure I'm more persnickety about liberal bomb throwing.

High emotions for sure this day--

If the other posters on here are truthful, Feisty works for msnbc.....well, this is what HER liberal news agency just posted:

"Here's the problem: The ACA creates state health insurance "exchanges," providing tax credits to eligible residents to buy affordable, state-certified health insurance. But the poorest Americans aren't in that eligible pool, because the law assumes they'll be covered by the expansion of Medicaid, which is no longer a given.

In states that reject the expansion, poor residents could be left without either form of coverage — as many as 15 million if all 50 states opt out"

Counterpoint from your own highly touted (by you) news resource....of and thats a FACT sanity.

Marla-3071717

It's called personal responsibility

That is exactly what the mandate was for.

Why is it the government's responsibility to provide for you?

The government isn't supplying it, they are taxing you if you don't have it.

The argument over the mandate is a mystery to me. Put forth by republicans to make everyone responsible for their health care, it now becomes a rallying cry for those same republicans going against it.

How did people get this twisted around? They should be praising the fact that democrats support making people responsible for their health care.

The only conclusion I can wrap my head around is this:

If the President is for it, I must be against it.

Oh, need proof? The Olympic bid at the start of his presidency is a good example. Need another? Libya.

So, the ACA adds 33 million Americans to healthcare, making them responsible for it. Somehow, in their twisted minds, this is a bad thing for republicans.

______________________________________________________________________________

Legalize-the-Constitution

Ok, we can go with that senario. If every state opts out, they will receive no Medicare. How does that help any politicians re-election?

Bosslimo-- the government should not be in the business of mandating our personal responsibility, and taxing us if they don't feel we are being responsible. It's not responsible to have unprotected sex. Should they tax us? Some may feel it's not responsible to have more than two kids. Should we tax any family that has more than two? Where do they stop telling us how to live? They already tax items they deem "morally and/or medically harmful" such as tobacco and alcohol.

Little by little your freedoms are being eroded. Laws that protect you from me are great. Laws that protect me from me are unconstitutional.

I'll agree with you that politics is whack. It's so partisan, there is nothing one side can do that the other side won't complain about. Newsflash, people-- they're all scounderels. They're all on the take from lobbyists and special interest, and not one of them would stand by their convictions (if they had any) if it meant losing an election. In the inimitable words of John Kerry, "I was for it before I was against it." Pretty much sums up Washington.

Marla - I see you didn't put down Legalize for his over the top lack of manners? How hypocritical of you but nothing I didn't expect.

I am sorry you were out of a job and I certainly hope you've found one. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Times are difficult and I have a friend who has been looking for work for 2 years - just found a job.

However, the truth remains. When you visit an emergency room, we all pay for it - in higher hospital costs and higher taxes. I'm not complaining - but those are facts. I'm not complaining about it. I would rather have someone visit an emergency room than go without the care they need. But, realize that the care they receive there is not for everyone. As Feisty pointed out, ERs don't provide ongoing care for Diabetes, Cancer, TB, etc. They are only for emergencies.

Legalize - you are Kirk - should have guessed it. Again, you reek of nonsense and have read and understand nothing. You have no facts - just your usual pontificating and continued arrogance with nothing to back it up. You make up your assessments based on your "knowledge" which doesn't exist.

In other words, Kirk, you're doing what you always do - being useless, ignorant and arrogant! Why does that not surprise me?

Again, Marla, if you're about any kind of fairness, you'll be just as offended by Legalize as you are about me. But, since you are against the Healthcare bill, you aren't about fairness. You're about putting anyone down who doesn't agree with you. Your post about me was worse than anything I said about you. My post to Legalize was in the exact tone he took with me - which you had no problem with. Can we say hypocrite???? You are no better than anyone on this site that calls names. You just tried to play the "poor me" game then were just as nasty. How quaint. How dishonest!

Oh, the stench you smell - probably should go take a shower because it's emanating from you!

Well, I don't know, Sanity-- there's a bit of difference. He jumped in the fray in this thread, if I'm reading back and remembering correctly, after you crossed a line that's supposedly not supposed to be crossed here....a personal and very unkind attack. What you did was wrong, no two ways about it.

We have been gainfully employed now since 10/10, thank you for caring. Times were very lean-- we were out of work for two years, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, either. My main beef as I said before with the ACA is the mandate. I will never support the government mandating what they deem to be personal responsibility.

I'll take your challenge, however, and will promise to be more vigilant when I see "my side" cross the line. These forums can be a wonderful exchange of ideas, and in all honesty, when engaged in intelligent discussion on here, I've actually had cause to rethink a position I'd held on something-- someone really provoked some thought. However, it was a polite and respectful exchange of thoughts and ideas....what a concept, huh?

However, with the bomb throwing and childish name calling, all that does is build walls and keeps people firmly in the other camp, and increases the hate. We have a responsibility always to treat people, in all areas, as we'd want to be treated. Golden rule...right?

You all obviously know each other-- I pop in here now and then. I know I've interacted with you once before-- never had the pleasure with Feisty or Legalize until yesterday.

So, I'm guessing you're not taking me up on my challenge to kill people with kindness, today...huh? However, you started out strong-- I see definite hope. And, again, as I mentioned, I will definitely take your words under advisement and call out my side for personal attacks.

24 hours of civil discourse starts now....go!

And once again-- to clarify.... my problem with you, Sanity, was your personal attack-- calling me a moronic idiot and terminally stupid. That's totally out of line. No one should have that freedom here, and again, supposedly, we don't. I'm wondering where Tyler or Timothy, or whatever the heck the moderator's name is on this one. How is that okay? I've seen him suspend people for far less. What gives?

And I was speaking in metaphors regarding the smell. Your behavior stunk. Anyone who would stand next to you in support, stinks as well-- it all blends together.

But in any event-- have a nice day.

Marla - again, you clearly didn't read or didn't care about Legalize (Kirk) attacking me. That's hypocritical.

And, I NEVER put you down in my first response to you. I merely stated facts. You came up with the bad smell comment. If you attack me, I'll attack back - as I did with you and Legalize. Don't think I'm going to sit back and be attacked under the guise of your playing the poor picked on one - when I hadn't.

I have no problem with civil discourse. But, if you continue to be a hypocrite - you do so at your own expense. Try being honest and you'll do much better with me. But if you attack me for counter-attacking some sleaze bag like Legalize - all bets are off.

You appear to be one of those on the right who thinks people should "do as you say, not as you do." You'll find yourself on the short end if you play that game. If you want to be treated nicely, do the same. And, don't attack someone who is responding to being attacked by someone else. Hypocrites are not appreciated by anyone!

SeekingSanity

Marla - what a moronic idiot you are. And, you want to make sure everyone knows it so you put it out there for all to see. Yes, you got into the emergency room and the rest of us with jobs paid for you. You are terminally stupid!

• 6
  
• !

#22.5 - Thu Jun 28, 2012 4:52 PM EDT

This was your post to me from yesterday-- THIS is to what I'm referring. This was your first reply to something I'd said. It's above. Scroll back up and read it.

Again, I spoke in metaphors to Feisty-- regarding your stinky behavior. You came out of the gate with personal attacks.

No I came out of the gate with saying we all paid for your trip to the emergency room - no attacks - just facts.

Then you are a lost cause, and I waste my time.

Have a nice day.

Didn't get my edit done in time. I made my comment in reference to your comment about "deciding to kill my child." Any woman who doesn't realize that for another woman to make a decision to have an abortion must be difficult, isn't much of a woman and you certainly showed that. Your comment was moronic and careless - at best. I can't imagine what a woman goes through in making that decision and I would never put someone down for what I'm sure is a hard decision to make. But, of course you are so much better - at least you think you are.

As for your hospital visit - I didn't put you down - just stated facts.

You are a typical right winger. You'll attack anyone who doesn't agree with you but let those who do be as nasty as possible and you'll never make a comment about them. Hypocrite. Don't act so high and mighty when you're so two-faced.

If you want to play nice - do it and I'll respond in kind. But, if you attack me for an ignorant and clearly judgmental post of yours, I'll attack back. If you attack me and let people who agree with you be nasty I'll call you on it. Your being two-faced is your problem - not mine.

And, there is no difference with Legalize - except in your mind.

Now, this conversation is over. You'll never admit to being two-faced - honesty is not possible for you or Legalize (kirk).

I've come across quite a few people here, never any who can defend being so boorish quite as well as you.

And yes, I think I'm better-- I am better. I am better than anyone like you who will disagree with a comment, and call names. Abortion is the killing of a child...in the name of choice. Rather textbook definition. It's okay for me to tell the government don't tell me what to do with my body in the name of choice, but not okay for me to tell the government to stick it when it comes to other areas of personal responsibility.

come to think of it-- I think I was suspended once for a day for calling someone a hypocrite, too-- rather ironic what liberals are allowed to get away with-- maybe Feisty isn't the only one on the payroll. Wow.

Oh well-- um, now the conversation is over-- ha.

And I love how you like your own comments immediately after posting-- LOL.

Marla - you're better than no one - except in your head. I would never judge anyone on what I'm sure is a difficult decision to make.

You're disgusting and a true lowlife!

And, I don't vote my own comments - I've been on a different site. I was right yesterday. You are a moron!

okay, my friend-- keep seeking, and stating those "facts." Abortion takes the life of a child-- it kills a child. That is not a judgment. THAT is a fact.

Me think you doth protest too much-- it's okay to like your own posts. If it makes you feel better, I'll vote for mine, too-- :) I'll even vote for yours too-- that oughta really boost you up- there. Better?

have a great day! LOL

Marla - abortion destroys a fetus - not a child. But, right wingers love to claim "child," since they believe it makes them superior. It doesn't. Until those who would refuse the choice of a woman have adopted all children needing homes, they should keep their mouths shut. By opposing choice but not adopting the children they are saying they just want control over women and really don't give a damn about children.

Again, you're noting but a hypocrite!

You are unimportant so what you do doesn't make me feel any particular way. I almost always have great days.

If I'm so unimportant, why do you keep responding to me? Call it what you'd like-- I'm sure the nice, sanitary, unemotional verbiage of "fetus" makes it easier for you to sanction the killing of children. But, it's just that-- fetus, embryo, cells-- whatever. Call it what you will.

Not everyone can adopt. I'd love to, but I also believe in spanking-- adoption agencies won't let you adopt if you say that, yes, indeed, I will spank the hiney of my two year old. Liberals don't like spanking, either, I'm guessing. Plus, I'm also raising a slew of my own-- gasp! How politically incorrect-- overpopulation and all that jazz. I'm nine kids strong-- the possibility of more is always there. A veritable brood mare, eh?

So there is hope-- I'm populating the planet with more people like me-- aren't you excited?

(by the way, I voted for your comment again for you!! Now you can have a really great day)

Marla - your ignorance is beyond belief. One of my best friends was anti-choice and had a child knowing it had an extra chromosome. She watched her baby die a horrible, painful death and was devastated. Shortly after, one of her friends had the same situation. My friend drove her for her abortion and held her hand afterward. She is now pro-choice and would destroy an idiot like you with her comments. Until you have walked in another woman's shoes you have no right to open your damned mouth.

My guess is you wouldn't have the capacity to love a child that you didn't carry. You are clueless and disgusting. But, you're a typical Republican. You're not superior to anyone or anything.

Your children will probably grow up to be much smarter and hopefully more compassionate than their idiot mother. If not, I pity your children. One day one will do something you don't agree with and then you'll have a choice to make. Hopefully it's one they can live with and get past.

We can only hope.

Oh and maybe you should go back and re-read your Bible. Judge not lest ye be judged. But, understanding that is way beyond your mental capacity!

You know nothing about me, SS-- but know this, there is never a scenario under which it's okay to kill a child. Never. I miscarried a twin....twice. The death of a child at any stage is devastating. How is it better to have it be at your hand, by your choice-- how does one live with that? -- just so you don't have to go through emotional pain? Pain is a part of life-- in pain, there is growth. If there is life, there is always hope.

Of course I will always question those decisions-- and I have enormous compassion....for the infants who were denied their chance at life. And I can only hope that my children will grow up in the shoes of their parents-- so far, so good. They're all firmly pro-life, believing that God will decide when a life begins, and when it ends.

To that end-- I gotta tell you, I mentioned earlier how I had to rethink my position on something via these forums-- the death penalty is that issue. I'd always been for it. Engaging in discussions, and believing that as long as there is life, there is hope, I've changed my position. How can I be pro-life, and for the death penalty? Self defense? No problem. A nation defending itself? No problem. State sanctioned death penalty.....hmmmm-- while it's not an innocent, like a baby in utero, I've had to rethink it--

We can only hope that you listen to others in this forum, and rethink your positions-- it'll make you a better person.

Marla - I would never want to be like you. You are clueless and have no compassion. And, you believe it is your right to tell everyone how to live their life.

Miscarrying is not even close to carrying a child to term and watching it die a slow, painful death and anyone with any kind of commonsense knows that. Your decisions are yours but don't put your narrow minded views on others. You don't have the right to judge anyone. You're hypocritical. What your children think will change as they grow and situations present themselves.

I hope they never have to count on you to support them if their decisions are different than yours.

Thinking like you will not make me a better person (what an arrogant a** you are!) It would just make me a control freak - like you. It would make me less of a human being and would mean I would have no compassion for others - just like you! It would make me a poor excuse for a human being.

I have every right to judge what scripture calls sin...and I can call it thus. Murder is wrong. Calling it abortion may make it legal, but it doesn't make it any less wrong.

I'm sure your friend went through hell and back after the birth of her child. I can't imagine the pain of losing a child. My daughter just lost a classmate 12 hours after they graduated high school-- I can't imagine that pain.

Pain is part of life. Death is part of life. Murder, sadly, is now a legal part of life--

I didn't say you needed to think like me-- just think. That'd be a great start.

Really need to get going-- have a great day.

Again, don't think so highly of yourself. I out-think you daily and you prove it with your narrow-minded posts.

When I read the posts of idiots like you I am reminded of Ghandi's quote "I love your Christ, it is your Christians I don't like." You exemplify what he was talking about.

I have no problems with my beliefs - they come from what I know to be true; from my heart and my soul - something you are sorely lacking. I know no one who has committed murder - but I've read your posts - putting down helping those less fortunate and I have to laugh at your claims about valuing life. You value nothing but your own hatred - and it shows.

You represent the worst of the far right - those who talk about values and have none. Maybe you should rethink your so-called values since you lack the basic values most people have.

You don't think at all - you're beyond hopeless.

And, if you actually believed in the Bible you'd know you have no right to judge anyone! You're totally lacking as a human being.

Your heart and soul? That's your guide? That's your absolute? That's your final authority? No wonder you're such a mess. No wonder you're so hateful and angry and bitter.

I don't do this much-- not a big pray-er-- but I think I'll pray for you today.

I'll pray that you'll stop "Seeking Sanity," and start Seeking Wisdom.... The wisdom that's found only in God-- "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom..."

By the way, you've failed in the challenge-- but thanks for playing.

Marla - I'm not hate filled or bitter. I just find hypocrites like you to be disgusting.

And, you fail every challenge - but most of all the one about being human. I don't want or need your prayers because my God would never listen to a hypocrite like you!

You're totally disgusting and I pity your children. They have no person of value teaching them. Just a lowlife who clings to hatred. Pitiable really!

And, I will have a great day! Too bad yours will be spent in judging and putting down everyone who doesn't think small-minded like you! You are to be pitied. And, I'll keep good thoughts for your children - they'll need it!

You fail the daily challenge of being a good human being. Pitiful really!

And you prove what I always say - there is no sanity to be found in the small minds of the GOP!

But your statement is meaningless "My God would never listen...."....since you are your God. You decide what truth is based on your heart and soul-- you said so yourself.

So, I guess, to that end, your statement is true-- since you're your God-- you're the arbiter of what's right and wrong, what's truth, then of course you wouldn't listen to me seeking prayer for such a lost soul as yourself.

You are hateful and nasty. Every word that pours out of your mouth shows the level of unhappiness in you-- sad stuff.

thank you for your good thoughts for my children-- I knew there was some good in you. They are lovely, warm, obedient and as you can see from my picture-- beautiful children. God has blessed me. Thank you for your warm thoughts. Maybe you do have a fuzzy side... ;)

Reading comprehension is not your strong suit. I am not hate filled or nasty but I have no use for people like you who believe it is your right to judge anyone. You should not talk about God since you've set yourself up as God in your mind.

I'm very happy with my life and my beliefs. Too bad you have none. If you find unhappiness in me it's because you hope it's there. So sorry - it's not. But, you need that to fill good about yourself. Pity really.

Well, as they say, "Denial ain't just a river in Egypt," my friend. SS, we all judge. You've judged me since your first post-- wasn't it you who called me a moronic idiot and terminally stupid? Isn't that judging me? Oh, that's right-- you were stating facts. (eye roll)

but as is typical with liberals, they can throw bombs all they want and give themselves a pass.

I'll continue to judge, as will you-- difference is, I'll judge behaviors-- the killing of innocent babies, the robbing of our freedom by a socialist leaning government, the nasty ramblings of hypocritical liberals. And you'll continue to judge anyone who makes a statement you don't like, and call them names-- it's what you do. I've seen it. It makes your opinion look very irrelevant.

My mama always taught me that once you've lowered yourself to name calling or bad language, you've lost the argument because you've proven your argument isn't enough to sustain itself. you have to bluster and blow to try and intimidate the other side. I'm not intimidated. Bluster away.

Look who's talking. You lost the argument a long time ago.

You are not worth discussions with because you are nothing but a right wing hypocrite. (See I can name call just like you).

Too bad your mother didn't teach you that it is not your right to judge anyone.

And, you're not intimidating - just a poor excuse for a human being. You prove Ghandi's quote with every hate filled post you make. I honestly do pity your children.

You're not worth much and I frankly have work to do. You've wasted enough of my time. I wish you the best because you're going to someday need compassion and understanding. Too bad you have none to give. I'm thankful my God is not like the one you worship - filled with hate and disgust.

Good luck with your hatred - you'll need it. Pitiful really!

But again-- you're the God-- you're the arbiter of your truth-- your heart and soul. Those were your words. Do you not remember what you say? You call names, and then deny it. You say your heart and soul are your truth-- and then deny you're your God. You're not being consistent. It is illuminating to read your rants, however.

I'd heard it said that liberalism is a mental illness-- you and your name seem to confirm it. it's rather chilling. Thank God they're not all like you. There are plenty of liberals who can engage in intelligent, civil discussion-- I'll continue to seek them out.

Ciao.

And, as usual for the far right - you lie. I NEVER said I am my God. Again, your reading comprehension is less than minimal.

You are a total waste of time. SOME Republicans are worth discussions - you are not.

Good bye and good luck with your hatred. You have serious mental issues and I hope you get help. I pity you.

And yet you say I'm a waste of time, and yet you continue-- what you said is you're the judge of what's right and wrong-- your heart and your soul-- hence, you're your God. That's God's job. He is the judge of what's right and wrong. And what he calls wrong, we can also call wrong-- such as the murder of innocent babies, for example.

However, it's also wrong for me to keep pushing your buttons. I lost interest in this discussion a long time ago, but it's fun to see you get so worked up-- my apologies.

You said you were busy-- far too busy for the likes of pitiable me-- so-- carry on.

Marla - abortion destroys a fetus - not a child.

Huh? You mean the latin word that literally means, "Unborn Child"? Even the definition in the dictionary says that fetus means unborn child.

But, right wingers love to claim "child," since they believe it makes them superior.

Sounds to me like you are the one trying to redefine 'fetus' or 'child' to make yourself superior. Namely by trying to lower the 'fetus' into a new definition that meets your agenda. Who is the one acting superior?

It doesn't. Until those who would refuse the choice of a woman have adopted all children needing homes, they should keep their mouths shut. By opposing choice but not adopting the children they are saying they just want control over women and really don't give a damn about children.

Let's see if I have got this right. Taking everything into perspective...

I am going to assume a few things here, and even if they aren't the case for you (which I doubt), they are certainly the case for the majority of liberals. As a liberal, you probably believe:

1. Sex is a natural thing that should be enjoyed to its fullest with anyone and everyone you feel that you want to have sex with, regardless of how immoral or irresponsible anyone else may think it is.
2. However, when you have such irresponsible sex and it initiates a pregnancy, then that person should also have the right to abort, and those that disagree should keep their mouths shut about point #1, and #2 unless they take on the burden of the mother who had such irresponsible sex to begin with and adobt the child.
3. Regardless of the irresponsibility of point #1, and point #2. If the mother doesn't want the child, it is okay, she should abort. However, if the father doesn't want the child, he is irresponsible and a burden on society. He should be made to pay, regardless of his wishes. He now has a life long debt of child support to pay.
4. Regardless of the irresponsiblity of point #1, and point #2, and the issues brought up in point #3. If the mother doesn't want the child, but the loving father does indeed want the child, then that is just too bad for the father. He has no say whatsoever and the child should now die, even though we now have someone who WANTS to adopt the child (as noted in point #2), it's just too bad anyways.
5. Regardless of #1, #2, #3, and #4. If, by some miracle, the father DOES get the child by the good graces of the mother, she should not have to pay child support since she didn't want the child to begin with and would have simply aborted if the father hadn't begged her to begin with.

Did I get that right so far?

Again, you're noting but a hypocrite!

Yeah... okay... if you say so. But the above points I just made doesn't seem to make your argument much better.

And, if you actually believed in the Bible you'd know you have no right to judge anyone! You're totally lacking as a human being.

Actually, Jesus was a pretty big judger. Using words like hypocrites, and generation of vipers, and such like that.

I assume you are trying to use Matthew 7:1-2. The whole judge not let you be judge by your own measure thing.

It actually isn't saying to 'not judge' but rather, be careful about how your are judging people because the way you are judging them, those same exact standards will be used against you.

Marla - I'm not hate filled or bitter.

yet...

Marla - what a moronic idiot you are.

So loving and compassionate....

And, you're not intimidating - just a poor excuse for a human being.

And not judgemental at all, I see...

You're totally disgusting and I pity your children.

Such kind and loving words, you really are a flirt!

Your children will probably grow up to be much smarter and hopefully more compassionate than their idiot mother.

All that, and Marla never once called you any names. What was the words you used about judging? Wasn't it, "You really are a hypocrite?"

thank you for your good thoughts for my children-- I knew there was some good in you. They are lovely, warm, obedient and as you can see from my picture-- beautiful children. God has blessed me. Thank you for your warm thoughts. Maybe you do have a fuzzy side... ;)

Hey Marla,

I have a 12 year old son and another who is 10. I hope one of them meets one of your daughters and falls in love. You've raised your children as they should be. I fear for my children in this world of infidelity, they have a long road ahead of him.

j70141 in Colorado - two morons together. Perfect. You and Marla's children deserve so much better but it looks like they're stuck with parents who can't reason, can't read, are illogical, think it is their right to judge others, then haughtily claim they're Christians when anyone who is knows they don't even come close.

God would look at both of you and shake his head.

And, you don't have a clue what I believe but you project your hatred and stupidity on me. Truly pathetic LITTLE people who have no God but think they are God.

Pathetic little people.

You're not worth the time and I won't reply to you mental midgets again.

And once again, SS votes for "his" own posts. I'm going to assume you're a male, because I'd have a hard time believing that women behave so rotten-- but who knows? For now, anyway, I'll call it a he. J-- it is tricky raising decent kids, but not impossible-- you give me hope that there will be mates out there for my kids to find.

I'm gratified that you saw this thread-- it was an interesting one, for sure. The darkness, the "lostness" to coin a term is frightening. The hatred and venom-- just wow. Worse is hiding behind a silly name. Obviously I can't give my last name-- who knows what nut will try and track you down for a differing view. But, first name and my face-- that's me, warts and all. And I'm responsible for everything I say and do, and because I want to be held accountable, I'll identify myself.

Unfortunately, like I admitted towards the end, I was just letting the brat in me have some fun and poke-- it was fun seeing him bluster. The little sister in me sometimes just can't help being overly obnoxious to get big brother to blow his stack. That is definitely where I erred.

I'm sure being the loving, tolerant, compassionate, kind liberal "Christian" to use his word that he is, he has forgiven pathetic, little me. Ha.

Have a great day, J--

check out that debt clock.

just what we need, another fukin tax

James, buddy, taxes go to the Government as revenue, more revenue makes the debt go DOWN.

Let me know if I need to slow that down and explain it again in Bush-speak.

CBO scored this as reducing debt as soon as next year.

Research of your talking points may help you come accross with more integrity.

Crysalis.....the debt only goes down when taxes go up and spending stays the same, decreases or increases less than the tax..........It's been said by the CBO this will cost more than 1 trillion......

CBO had originally estimated that the health care reform bill would result in a net reduction in federal deficits of $143 billion from 2010-2019; this revised number would eliminate most of that savings.

Maybe you should do some research