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Subscribe to RSSNBC News has obtained a copy of a seven-page letter from House Oversight Chairman Darrell Issa to Barack Obama that raises the stakes in the stand-off between Congress and the attorney general.
In the letter, Issa challenges the president's assertion of executive privilege over documents sought by the committee in the "Operation Fast & Furious" investigation.
Issa requests the president provide a formal, legal justification for the privilege claim and a list of specific documents covered by it.
Issa points to case law that maintains executive privilege is reserved for direct presidential decision-making.
The California Republican ratchets up the pressure by stating that either the president's "most senior advisers were involved in managing Operation Fast & Furious ... and the fallout" or the White House is asserting "a presidential power that you know to be unjustified solely for the purpose of further obstructing a congressional investigation."
The letter includes the president's own public statements that neither he nor Holder knew about or authorized the operation.
Issa asks why and the attorney general was offering certain documents last week with the condition that the contempt citation be dropped but the next day those same documents were shielded by executive privilege.
The chairman says there has been no explanation for how Holder could tell the president that releasing the documents would result in "significant damaging consequences" only hours after saying he could provide them to congressional leaders if contempt was off the table.
Rep. Issa: No evidence of White House cover-up in 'Fast and Furious' gun-running case
The chairman goes through the history of the case, the death of border agent Brian Terry and reminds the president that Attorney General Holder provided false information to Congress on Feb. 4, 2011 in a letter that denied the gun operation permitted illegally bought weapons to cross into Mexico.
The Justice Department retracted that denial months later. Issa pointedly states that lying to Congress is a crime itself and says the subpoenaed documents pertain to Holder's denial and internal communications that brought about the subsequent correction.
In a new request, Issa also asks for any communications between the White House and Justice between the date of the false denial and June 18, 2012, the day before privilege was asserted.
Issa rejects criticism that the contempt vote is purely political. He complains that Holder referred to the committee's action as an "election-year tactic."
Issa writes that "nothing could be further from the truth. This statement not only betrays a total lack of understanding of our investigation, it exemplifies the stonewalling we have consistently faced."
Still, the House Oversight Chairman tells the president he is "hopeful the Attorney General will provide the specified documents so that we can work towards resolving this matter short of a contempt citation."
Leave a Comment:
What we should do, as the people of the United States of America, is hold The House of Representatives in contempt.....of the Constitution, because they have disregarded it at every turn. Thats the way they are(right wingers), they have no respect for our Nation laws, especially the Constitution.
Top Dog,
Really? And Obama as such respect he enforces only the parts of the immigration laws he agrees with. Here's my post to you again explaining why the contempt charge and why they are covering up:
Try this on:
"In December, documents showed that some ATF agents discussed using Fast and Furious to provide anecdotal cases to support controversial new rules about gun sales. The regulation, called Demand Letter 3, would require 8,500 firearms dealers in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas that "have a significant number of crime guns traced back to them from Mexico" to report multiple rifle sales."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
Now, remember Hillary spouting in 2008 that our gun laws were to blame for the Mexican cartel deaths. Turns out the Holder DOJ was throwing gas on that fire. Perhaps with tighter gun control laws being the primary objective. A real end run around the 2nd amendment. That's why this is a big deal with some heavy hitters in the administration possibly implicated.
Hoops, how typical of the Fox crowd....
tHE SECOND AMENDMENT HAS BEEN EVEN RECENTLY UPHELD IN EVERY WAY, IT AINT GOING NOWHERE..
so dont give us the crap about any secret plot to "end run" it....
Its GOP scare tactics at its best for you sheeple
Dan,
I hope your right. I was just providing a thoery that fits the facts
@Dan
It's called cover they are doing an end run around the 2nd amendment using UN treaties.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/10/15/us-arms-usa-treaty-idUSTRE59E0Q920091015
Issa seems to be leading the charge for the GOP to go collectively insane. His assertions about Fast and Furious are so bizarre, so totally loony, you seriously have to question the man's mental state.
Really Joe,
Have a read:
"In December, documents showed that some ATF agents discussed using Fast and Furious to provide anecdotal cases to support controversial new rules about gun sales. The regulation, called Demand Letter 3, would require 8,500 firearms dealers in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas that "have a significant number of crime guns traced back to them from Mexico" to report multiple rifle sales."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
Now, remember Hillary spouting in 2008 that our gun laws were to blame for the Mexican cartel deaths. Turns out the Holder DOJ was throwing gas on that fire. Perhaps with tighter gun control laws being the primary objective. A real end run around the 2nd amendment. That's why this is a big deal with some heavy hitters in the administration possibly implicated.
To..Hoop """
And from your link ....
2006–2007: Operation Wide Receiver and other probes
The first known ATF "gunwalking" operation to Mexican drug cartels, named Operation Wide Receiver, began in early 2006 and ran into late 2007. Licensed dealer Mike Detty informed the ATF of a suspicious gun purchase that took place in February 2006 in Tucson, Arizona. In March he was hired as a confidential informant working with the ATF's Tucson office, part of their Phoenix, Arizona field division.[23] With the use of surveillance equipment, ATF agents monitored additional sales by Detty to straw purchasers.
With assurance from ATF "that Mexican officials would be conducting surveillance or interdictions when guns got to the other side of the border",[24] Detty would sell a total of about 450 guns during the operation.[22] These included AR-15s, semi-automatic AK-pattern rifles, and Colt .38s. The vast majority of the guns were eventually lost as they moved into Mexico.[7][23][25]
At the time, under the Bush administration Department of Justice (DOJ), no arrests or indictments were made. After President Barack Obama took office in 2009, the DOJ reviewed Wide Receiver and found that guns had been allowed into the hands of suspected gun traffickers.
Indictments began in 2010, over three years after Wide Receiver concluded. As of October 4, 2011, nine people had been charged with making false statements in acquisition of firearms and illicit transfer, shipment or delivery of firearms.[18] As of November, charges against one defendant had been dropped; five of them had pled guilty, and one had been sentenced to one year and one day in prison. Two of them remained fugitives.[23]
Another, smaller probe occurred in 2007 under the same ATF Phoenix field division
Amunaka,
Yes I read the whole thing. Did you catch that WR ended in 2007 (was not terminated by Holder but re-instituted and put on steroids - F&F) and that for WR there were provisions for tracking the guns. Not sure what your point is.
I never said WR was ended by Holder... but they lost a majority of those guns from WR ..so much for tracking ...Why can't the dems call any witnesses ..why won't issa allow bush AG Michael Mukasey to come and testify under oath before the committee ....
2. The Hernandez Case (2007)
According to documents obtained by the Committee, agents in the ATF
Phoenix Field Division unsuccessfully attempted a second operation in the summer of 2007 after identifying Fidel Hernandez and several alleged co-conspirators as suspected straw purchasers seeking to smuggle firearms into Mexico.
Despite failed attempts to coordinate with Mexican authorities, ATF agents sought approval from the U.S. Attorney’s Office to expand so-called “controlled deliveries.” In addition, documents obtained by the Committee indicate that then-Attorney General Michael Mukasey was personally briefed on these failed attempts and was asked to approve an expansion of these tactics. During the course of the investigation, Hernandez and his co-conspirators reportedly purchased more than 200 firearms.
AT F-Phoenix watched guns cross border without
http://www.scribd.com/doc/80046653/12/the-hernandez-Case-2007
Amunaka,
WR only had 450 guns from one FFL. ATF agents have stated they had tracking training but lost them. F&F had over 6 times as many guns and less control. Agents were tol not to track them by their supervisors who were later transfered to other jobs with not so much as a slap on the wrist. Ask yourself WHY? Regarding Hernandez, I think you have a point. Anyone that blows an op like that needs to be taken to task. I am just trying to say that there is a scaring correlation between Hillariy's remarks of 2008 and what the DOJ was doing and now no one is being held accountable.
Hooops
Amunaka,
WR only had 450 guns from one FFL. ATF agents have stated they had tracking training but lost them. F&F had over 6 times as many guns and less control.
***************************************************
BS, PLAIN AND SMELLY
The Times reported from Washington on Monday that the Bush administration managed a program similar to Fast and Furious in 2006-07. Mexican President Felipe Calderon took office in December 2006.
In that program, dubbed Wide Receiver, weapons were allowed into Mexico, just as later occurred in Operation Fast and Furious in 2009 and 2010, The Times reported. About 2,000 weapons were "walked" in Mexico and later showed up at scores of crime scenes, Mexican officials have said.
Tell me, how is 2000 SIX times more than 1600?
Maybe in the Fox world, but hot in the REAL world
Dan,
Differing sources. Wiki says WR involved one FFL and 450 guns and the ever objective NYT says 2000. Could the NYT number be a total of F&F and WR?
Does anyone think that Obama cares what congress thinks or specifically what Issa thinks or wants. Obama feels he is above the law and that what he does is for the greater good. problem is tht Obama still has a slavery grudge and a big chip on his shoulder. Just think if we hadn't screwed up and had slaves Obama would stil be in Kenya where he was born.
Splendid...
After all this time,.. we still get to laugh at birthers...
Thanks..
where was this five star hypocrite when bush was wrecking this country? oh, i guess i forgot. bush is a republican and obama a democrat. i also suspect being president while black.
Issa just want some attention, he's been out of the spotlight. Hell, I'd never heard of him until a few weeks ago, and I'll forget all about him when this is over. Will somebody please play with this guy. Vote on the highway bill issa if you want some attention, you're not helping mitt, do your job.
Issa is a complete fraud! This past Sunday, Issa admitted on FOX News that his committee has no evidence whatsoever supporting his accusations of a cover-up by anyone in the Obama administration.
No evidence at all!
Hello people! Do a little fact checking for yourselves.
"Fast and Furious" is just another of the left-overs from Bush/Cheney that Republicans are now trying to blame on Obama/Biden.
How dumb do you have to be to fall for this kind of crap?
Tom,
The key phrase is that Issa does not presently have any evidence which is why he wants the documents. Your post is factually flawed. Consider this:
"In December, documents showed that some ATF agents discussed using Fast and Furious to provide anecdotal cases to support controversial new rules about gun sales. The regulation, called Demand Letter 3, would require 8,500 firearms dealers in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas that "have a significant number of crime guns traced back to them from Mexico" to report multiple rifle sales."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gunwalking_scandal
Now, remember Hillary spouting in 2008 that our gun laws were to blame for the Mexican cartel deaths. Turns out the Holder DOJ was throwing gas on that fire. Perhaps with tighter gun control laws being the primary objective. A real end run around the 2nd amendment. That's why this is a big deal with some heavy hitters in the administration possibly implicated.
That is not what was said so stop misquoting unless you are getting paid to lie.
The comment was about the White House.. not the administration. So if obama is not involved he cannot invoke executive privilege.
Do people like you just wake up in the morning and take a personal vow to deny facts, spin the truth and lie about others?
Tell us, Mr. Insider-I-Know-All-The Facts. Why has Holder and the DOJ now retracted 9 of their earlier statements regarding Fast and Furious?
proudamericanveteran
That is not what was said so stop misquoting unless you are getting paid to lie.
The comment was about the White House.. not the administration. So if obama is not involved he cannot invoke executive privilege.
*************************************************
The sheeple speaks again....
B. Withholding Documents or Testimony
Without Formally Asserting Executive Privilege
Throughout the two terms of President George W. Bush, the
Administration has on numerous occasions used threats of executive privilege or
made public statements implying that some facet of executive privilege might
apply, in order to stifle requests for information.
One of the Bush
Administration’s earliest applications of the principles underlying executive
privilege without a formal privilege assertion can be found in Vice President
Cheney’s refusal to comply with a request by the General Accounting
Office (GAO) for information related to the National Energy Policy
Development Group (NEPDG), consisting of high-level federal officials led by
Vice President Cheney, which was charged with recommending a proposal for a
national energy policy.
Abuse of State Secrets
The state
secrets privilege allows the Executive Branch to prevent the release of
documents and information in litigation if disclosure would compromise national
security.
The
privilege was first recognized by the Supreme Court in U.S. v. Reynolds, and was
derived from the president’s constitutional authority to protect the Nation. In
the years following Reynolds, the state secrets privilege was used sparingly.
Courts in turn were respectfully of the Executive’s judgment in these areas, and
in the few state secrets cases that arose, rarely compelled disclosure over the
government’s objection.
During the Bush Administration, however,
invocation of the privilege has exploded. In its first six years, the
Administration raised the privilege in almost 30 percent more cases per year
than the prior administrations (and there is no reason to believe that the rate
of invocation has slowed).
Employee lawsuits
The
state secrets doctrine was also relied on by the Bush Administration to prevent
whistleblower Sibel Edmonds from challenging her dismissal from the FBI’s
translation division. Ms. Edmonds, hired for her proficiency in Middle Eastern
languages, was fired less than a year after she reported numerous deficiencies
in the translation process to her supervisors, including poorly translated
documents from before September 11, 2001, that had been relevant to the
impending attacks.
After
raising concerns about these and other issues, Ms. Edmonds was fired. When she
sued to recover her job or compensation for what she was alleged was her
improper dismissal, the Administration successfully argued that the state
secrets privilege barred the suit.
She was also prevented from testifying
in a civil suit brought by families of 9/11 victims. The state secrets doctrine
was also invoked to obtain a dismissal of a racial discrimination case brought
by former CIA agent Jeffrey Sterling against George Tenet and other CIA
officials.
Classification
Since 1940, Executive Orders have governed federal policy on the
classification of documents pertaining to national security. There are generally
three levels of classification – “top secret,” “secret,” and “confidential,” in
order of exclusivity. In addition, certain federal agencies have been allowed to
create their own internal classification procedures.
The
Clinton Administration, under Attorney General Janet Reno, favored a policy of
transparency.
President
Clinton’s Executive Order 12958 promoted disclosure by, among other
things,
As a
result, under the Clinton Administration, the Executive Branch declassified
nearly ten times as many documents as the historical average.
On March
25, 2003, President Bush issued Executive Order 13292, revising the Clinton
order and reversing many of its key policies in ways that encouraged excessive
classification and discouraged appropriate declassification.
Some of
the key differences between the two orders include:
In
addition to developing general rules favoring classification, the Bush
Administration has used its classification authority in numerous instances to
protect against disclosure of potentially unlawful or inappropriate activities.
For
example, the White House attempted to retroactively classify parts of the Joint
Congressional Intelligence Committee’s report on its inquiry into the 9/11
attacks that had already been made public, including excerpts from the FBI’s
July 2001 Phoenix flight-school memo previously published elsewhere, the names
of senior Administration officials, and information on anti-terror intelligence
previously disclosed in public testimony.
The Bush
Administration also sought to block the release of the Joint Congressional
Intelligence Committee’s report. Senator Bob Graham, Chairman of the
Senate Intelligence Committee at the time of the report’s release, also alleged
that the Bush Administration made politically-motivated classification decisions
when it shielded portions of the Joint Committee’s report that raised suspicions
of possible support for some of the 9/11 hijackers by officials in Saudi Arabia.
As usual the RWNJs are out in full force to bash our President.
I don't have enough time to "ignore" all of you.
I am so sick of the gop/teabaggers criticizing Obama for everything.
You nuts probably think he was involved with the shooting of Reagan.
All the "right" has done is to obstruct this President.
He will be re-elected and you can all go fu ck yourselves.
Investigate Issa if you want to investigate someone involved in "illegal activities"
As usual, the LWNJs are out in force to defend the current administration from taking any responsibility for their own actions by deflecting with the statement that "Bush started it..."
John-2006106 - You had better of served in 3rd Batt. If not, take the picture down now!!!
Myself -
3rd Plt
B Co
3rd Ranger Battalion
75th Ranger Regiment 1988-1991
HHC
4th RTBn
RTB
1991-1992
Rio Hato Panama 20 December 1989.
thank you for your service to our great country.
Thank you for saying that.
This movie is called "Witch Hunt 2012, the search for votes"
Move along, and I hope BO gives them nothing.
Obama 2012!
shaun-4252305 --- i totally agree. he should stonewall them like they stonewalled his every move to improve the economy.
So, do Dems think Fast & Furious was a good plan? Do Dems think using executive privilege is called for when the President says he was not involved or informed? Do Dems think Obama should choose which laws to enforce?
Should my DA decide amnesty on rapists and CHOOSE not to enforce or prosecute?
We all better hope Obama goes down bigtime in the next election and put an end to this kind of government by executive decreefoe a few generations!
grinspoon97 -- do dems...do dems..... do dems.................maybe we can make a song out of this.
So, do they?
Or, maybe you could answer the questions. Why is it so wrong when "Bush did it", but it is okay when President Obama does it?
Justice under Bush investigated using a sting to track guns to cartels. It was to be with Mexican oversight and approval. That program was a bad plan and completely stopped under Bush.
Then along comes Obama and Holder who think Bush was wrong to stop guns to Cartels and starts his own version, this time without Mexican knowledge. They lose track of the guns and people, Mexicans and Americans, are killed. Holder testifies, "I knew nothing and neither did Obama."
Others came forward to testify that was a lie and cited documents to show the lies. Issa suponed the documents and, surprise, Holder would not honor a Congressional demand and got Obama to further cloud the issue with Executive Privilege. Then the, Obama's my guy and can do no wrong wonks try to further cloud the issue - Bush did it, they already gave some (other) documents, Obama has a right to his privacy, types try to out scream anyone else.
Obama's twisting on the issue shows he has much to hide. Find Holder in contempt - the first time an AG will be in contempt - and start proceedings. This should haunt him well into old age.
On the upside here,.. this DOES give the birther crowd something else to focus their tiny minds on..
After they were completely embarrassed,... maybe they're hoping to make a comeback... with something equally delusional, and desperate..
@k12ooRS
Actually someone should explain why both the certificates released had strange anomalies and looked nothing alike.
Someone should also explain why several forensic document examiners had more questions than answers after looking at both BC's.
But you know everyone that questions barry's past is just crazy and racist....can you explain why John McCain had to answer some of the very same questions and supplied thousands of pages of documentation to PROVE he was eligible since he was born on a military base in Panama?
I hope the President does not blink this time! Taxpayers,both Republicans and Democrats, ought to be appalled that their tax mpney is being used for this witch hunt and the parents of the dead agent ought to be appalled that the Republicans are using them as bait. The fact that they have not spoken up and stated that the witch hunt was not what they wanted speaks volumns for what we are dealing with here. The DOJ shut down this stupid program as soon as it learned what was going on and the agent was killed. That was action. Issa is not sharp enough to follow logic and realize that this program WAS A CARRY OVER from the Bush Admin. He does not want you or me to know that. Carry overs do happen when Administrations change. Issa would love to change those facts but historical,chronological facts cannot be changed. He may think he is tormenting Obama and Holder but my bet is that they will outlast Issa and his racist committee and legally they will come out looking correct and more intelligent.
Boondoggle anyone?
Issa is a tool. This entire fiasco has one purpose and one purpose only. It's obvious and it should anger every one of us. It's an EXPENSIVE waste of taxpayer dollars and a distraction from those issues which Congress should be spending every free moment addressing. But doing their job is not on their agenda. Hell, it has never been on this Congress's agenda since the extremists took control. Where did they find all this time and energy and sticktoitsim all of a sudden?
These charges against President Obama are bogus. Of course we know what it's about. More of the same. They are relentless in their attacks against our President and his administration in the hopes that all of it will pay off in the end. The pay off? Well, that's obvious too. The results of this upcoming election have been their focus since the day Obama won the Presidency. Nothing else matters to them. Not doing their jobs, not working together with the other side of the isle to serve the people who elected them to their offices, and certainly not being decent and honest human beings.
Running this witch hunt, Issa is the shining star of the right wing extremists. Wholeheartedly supported by every Republican member of Congress. I once had respect form many of them. Not anymore.
I won't discuss the details of this issue anymore. It's been explained over and over again to all, what the charges are. And it's also been explained time and again in detail exactly how they are false and what the true facts are. And as usual none of it can possibly sink into the minds of those the right wing estremists have been working on lobotomizing through their highly paid media hacks for many years now.
I always say this but at times like this I feel it more deeply. I miss the Republican Party of what seems like so, so long ago now. Now that was a great party! And I'm still wishing and hoping the spineless Democrats would stand up to these extremists rather than cowering in some corner under their desks. As it is, it seems as if our President Obama is totally on his own up there. A man with a bulls eye on his back with his fellow Democrats slinking off into the shadows to avoid the stray shot.
I wish they'd all get out of my capital! It would be great to start over with a fresh crop. But since the big money corporations and SUPER PACS now own most of Washington, that isn't ever going to happen. What I see as corruptions at it's worst will prove me wrong by growing more and more corrupt as these few seep further and further into every nook and cranny up there on the hill.
So long ago??
Lincoln perhaps...
Hey,.. any party could have a bad century...
"We the people"??
Corporate "people"??
They already have the country... The SC guaranteed it.
And I'm still wishing and hoping the spineless Democrats would stand up to these extremists rather than cowering in some corner under their desks.
come november these spineless democrats won't have desks!
Sorry... I didn't "throw that in"
willard specifically told us that corporations are "people"
And,.. so did the SC.. They ruled, apparently, on a constitutional basis..
What now???
I wondered just how low MSNBC would go...now I know. here's the latest from that noted Race Baiter and MSNBC Political analyist Big Al Sharpton:
"I'm not saying that this is because Holder is black, and I'm not calling [Republicans] racists. I'm saying what they're doing has a racial effect, and that's what we're going to talk about."
But, Of Course you are Al! Tossing the race card is the FIRST refuge of a true racist.
Sorry Libs, I just don't see how Fast and Furious will make Obama come off looking good.
This investigation started 18 months ago....
Issa handed over 7600 documents requested (many of the pages are blacked out)
He had to retrack his original statements in regards to Fast & Furious months after the fact.
Hundreds of Mexican residents are dead and one border patrol agent because of the guns allowed to cross into Mexico.
EVERYONE just wants to know what the he11 happened, who knew what and when.
Forget about your political affilation for just a few seconds, don't you want to know who was responsible for this?
Obama's executive prev. is a joke. If you are a lib/dem how can you justify not wanting to know who allowed this?
NOT BRAIN SURGERY LIBS!
GOP SHEEPLE EXTRODINAIRE
Gerard1234
it seems to be very credible that that is what Fast and Furious was all about, an attempt to make it harder to procure weapons
The lefty quasi socialists will never stop trying to disarm the citizenry, they know they can never take the country socialist as long as the citizenry is armed.
One look at Obama's conduct, makes it apparent, whey he wants to disarm the citizenry.
You have to admire our founding fathers, 236 years ago, they saw these quasi socialists, coming and installed the 2nd amendment.
************************************************************
THE SUPREME COURT HAS UPHELD THE SECOND AMENDMENT IN EVERY FRIGGEN SINGLE ASPECT..
So typical of the uneducated, GOP SHEEPLE believing whatever Fox and friends shoves down their throat...
Scare tactics at its finest, OH MY, OBAMA IS GOING AFTER OUR GUNS.....
WE BETTER NOT LET THAT HAPPEN...
LOL
Registered Democrat here, and Ill put MY gun/ammo collection up against yours any day of the week
Dan,
Registered Democrat here, and Ill put MY gun/ammo collection up against yours any day of the week
You would lose!
Regarding Obama's Gun Control voting record, it was not good when he was here in IL and that's my basis for my assumptions.
You would lose!
Regarding Obama's Gun Control voting record, it was not good when he was here in IL and that's my basis for my assumptions
******************************************
I AM 52 and I have been aquiring since I was 6, LITERALLY, so I doubt I would "lose"
How many safes do YOU have?
1 ENTIRE end of my garage holds ammo....
try again buckwheat...
As for this....Regarding Obama's Gun Control voting record, it was not good when he was here in IL and that's my basis for my assumptions..
WHAT PART OF The SC has UPHELD EVERY ASPECT of the 2nd did you NOT UNDERSTAND?
Dan,
I understood what you said about the SC. My sole issue here is I want those that were responsible for F&F dealt with and I have a suspicion it goes high up (with possible implication regarding Obamas vision of gun ownership).
I'm well over triple digits (all shooters - not my age, dammit) and 3 safes (some on the wall) with 10k rounds. Nice to meet a fellow enthusiast....
LOL, 10k rounds.. I have that in 45 alone....and not because of being paranoid or like that...I went on a buying binge when I heard that there might be a tax on single rounds...I spent LOTS
3 safes are in my bedroom closet only..well 4 if you count the small pistol one on the wall....
What I am saying is that neither Obama or God himself is going to take away our 2nd amendment, BANK on that and I cant stand the fact that sooooo many dumbazz people fall for those scare tactics the right uses.....
I probably have a smaller house and I live in IL so gimme a break.
I am considering this acquisition (and a move to WI):
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=283420267
I agree that Obama will not be able to take away the 2nd amendment but that won't stop the social justice types from chipping away at it. And I still want those that were running F&F (or WR for that matter) at least no longer drawing a taxpayer funded paycheck
OH and Hoops, as far as F&F, the ATF has its own play book that doesnt nessesarily have to be approved by the AG or the POTUS...They might be informed, or at least the AG, but I think that might be it...
Do you realized how many things the POTUS doesnt know about that goes on?
It would be IMPOSSIBLE for a POTUS to know everything that goes on in day to day operations, no way can he....
Dan,
I agree that it's not the POTUS job to micromanage but I found it disturbing that, in 2009, Hillary is blathering about how it's the fault of our lax gun control laws that the Mexican cartels have access to weapons and are killing people while, at the same time, the DOJ is letting them walk across the border knowing where they were going. Is it that far a throw to think that this was an orchestrated attempt to shore up support for greater gun regulation? Then, you throw in the two-step Holder did on what he knew/when he knew it and the fact that no one has even been demoted for this abortion of an operation, the whole thing smells like a cover-up. I really hope I am wrong but I want to know
If you really have 39k for it, WHY WOULDNT YOU?
Although you may reconsider...Il has been trying to ban 50s for over 2 years, and have been very close....That would be a lot of money and then have to turn around and get rid of it.....
@dan
http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/10/15/us-arms-usa-treaty-idUSTRE59E0Q920091015
read it and weep.
I am saving up (and, regarding the propose ban(s) by the most ridiculous state in the country, hence the relocation to WI).
10k in .45ACP! Wow! I might have spent on a differnt caliber. I was buying up all the 7.62x54r (7n1) I could get but now it's over $400 for 440. Sucks!
benr-3287919
@dan
http://www.reuters.com/article/2009/10/15/us-arms-usa-treaty-idUSTRE59E0Q920091015
read it and weep.
********************************************
WHAT the hell is YOUR problem?
I could care less about guns going out of the US, to anywhere..
YOU obviously read 1 or 2 of my posts on how I own guns and think Im some sort of right winger..
well STOP, you look stupid
10k in .45ACP! Wow! I might have spent on a differnt caliber
I have a bunch of 1911's..whenever I go out i shoot at least 500rds...
You want to know something funny...Of all the money I spent on all the expensive 1911s, my favorite is an Armscor, cost me 289.00...Its the most exact copy of the real deal there is..no frills, and as accurate as they get.....
I also bought up a ton of Korean 306 FMJ and 7mm mauser FMJ....
something cool about penetrating an inch of steel
I like my Sig 220 and my Para LDA. My Romak PSL like the 7n1s. You should try 50cal Beowulf. it's a hoot to shoot
Hah - People are thinking you're a righty because you have guns. Better hug a tree or two and you'll get your rep back (kidding). I think you meant Korean 30-06. Is it better than the Greek stuff that's all over the place?
I will admit my slim hog Para is nice as well....
The only thing I regret is not buying more 460 for my Smith...its like 5 bucks a rd now.....
I think you meant Korean 30-06. Is it better than the Greek stuff that's all over the place?
**************************
forgot the 0..yeah its great, never a problem....i bought 10 boxes of 400rds, went to buy more and it was gone
Gonna look into the Korean 30-06. Gotta M1 that's also a hoot to shoot.
Here ya go:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=293415201
*YAWN*...more political grandstanding and wasting time (not to mention tax-payers money) to do NOHTING but discredit the White House. Meanwhile, real issues need to be addressed and the only person attempting to do that is Obama.
Absolutely - Obama should just tell Holder to turn over the documents requested and move on. Obama says they show nothing and don't involve any wrong doing or executive involvement. Why is Obama making this a fight?
What is so wrong about turning over the documents and emails which have already been testified about?
Gene - I've got a better idea...how about we ask the families of the 4000 American soldiers who were killed in Iraq what they think? Why are we not hauling the 3 stooges (Dubya, Dick and Rummie) into the ring for lying to the ENTIRE F*CKING WORLD about Iraq having WMD?
Grin - Because there are obviously OTHER reasons that cannot be made public...perhaps National Security issues...perhaps idenity of CIA Operatives (we all know how well Dick Cheney was good as keeping those secrets now don't we?)
Hmmm...Issa will keep pushing until he's stopped. Ten to one, it will be Republicans who, in the end, tell him to quit.
Why? Same reason the filibuster remains, NEITHER Party wants to give it up. Same for "Executive Privilege." If Bush The Unmentionable hadn't exercised it to protect Rove in the Valerie Pflame affair, Rove would have gone to prison with "Scooter." And, there was never even a hint of direct Presidential involvement in that (Cheney, yes; Bush, no).
Second point: If the House votes to hold Holder in contempt, then the procedure is to turn the accusation over to a federal attorney in the District of Columbia, for the convening of a Grand Jury, to hear the charges and decide on an indictment.
BOTH Parties, in the past, have held that a federal attorney cannot, in effect, prosecute his own boss. Ergo: Special Prosecutors. At this stage in the game, Republicans surely don't want another Special Prosecutor investigation, this close to the election, whose investigation could backfire on Issa and the Republican Party, because then, the Special Prosecutor will call witnesses, not Issa, and those witnesses could easily go back prior to 2008 and Obama's election...i.e. to the Administration of The Unmentionable One.
Odds are also, although slightly better for Issa, that the President will simply ignore him.
Stone....
Guns were purchased in the US and taken to Mexico where hundreds of Mexican residents have been killed, along with our US border patrol agent. Forget about your politcal affiliation for a few minutes Stone......Don't you want to know, who knew what and when? Who authorized this DUMB tactic?
Don't point out bad behavior by deflecting it to other bad behavior.... Just answer the question. If this administration has already stated they knew nothing, why shouldnt Obama tell Holder to release all documentation on this?
Now to bring politics back into this, why isnt Obama transparent the way he promised he would run his administatation?
COME ON LIBERALS.....THINK ABOUT IT
Because there may be things in the documentation Issa wants that is unnecessary to his investigation and/or he's not cleared for.
Members of Congress do not have blank checks. If it is a national security issue, Issa would not necessarily be cleared for that information, although other Republicans, on the intelligence oversight committees would be. However, they would be bound by their own secrecy oaths.
I'd say that there are three possible reasons for withholding information: 1) simply to cover-up someone's error; 2) national security; 3) a legitimate reason, not related to national security, but which would be embarrassing to the Administration, but not necessary to Issa'a investigation. Two out of three odds, the President is right...I'll go with that.
Examples: Someone in the Mexican government or an agent within the drug cartels was cooperating with the program. Revealing those names could get additional people killed. Or, people within the ATF were involved in "setting up" other law enforcement agents, and there is an on-going investigation.
Note, I am not claiming EITHER of those scenarios is true, just different possibilities.
Issa's time would be better spent investigating flagrant violations by Karl Rove and his PAC. He doesn't (supposedly) have any contact with Romney but then meets him at an event? Also, his PAC should be investigated for Tax fraud. But that will never happen, the cards are already stacked and ready. If they keep focusing on this, they can bypass all Romney election violations. It is becoming useless to vote.
Good point...except for the last three sentences.
Should we not remember Issa's comment as Obama took office that he was going to try and destroy him. He said I will do whatever is neccessary. Issa is as much of a crook as anyone in Congress, so I find it amusing that of all the people to lead this political grandstanding, that it would be Issa. Nobody has profited as much from his political position as Issa.
These right wing loonies alone will bring down our country and destroy it. It is not by accident that these lunatics have been on the wrong side of history their entire lives. Remember what a wise man once said, "Reality has a well-known liberal bias"
Nope, just the liberal Dem party.
What history do you think we are on the wrong sode of? Your revisionist history does not count.
What is it that issa and the repubs are implying Obama is holding out on ..
What do you think the truth is Gene? Please tell us in a not so complicated way
The truth can't be found because of stone walling Congress. Transparency's finest hour.
To..gene"""
Again
What exactly is Obama supposed to be hiding anyway ...Terry being killed ..the F&F operation...the NRA funneling assault weapons to the drug cartels in Mexico ...what is the cover up and hiding of what ...a sting operation gone bad ...what
And because you can't find the documents you want to find ...doesn't mean they even exist ...didn't we go thru something like this before...no evidence so somebodies hiding something
Gene! Just being right wing proves you have very little intelligence, but I already knew that about you.
What is funny is all the lunatic conservatives cry that "guns don't kill people, people kill people." Now you want to blame the guns in this case, or better yet come up with this crazy conspiracy theory that it is an attempt to remove your second amendements rights. Now everyone is sadened and upset by the death of this agent. This gun running has been going on since 2006, so I guess Obama hypnotized Bush and made his administration start this game?
To..gene """
The NRA is behind everything to do with guns ...maybe holder got to close ..now they come up with this cock and maimy story how Obama's letting guns across the border to kill Mexicans all to take your guns away here in the US..and to see the the NRA backing the ATF...is truly a remarkable thing to say the least
To..gene """
Who told you noone was killed with the guns that went missing in operation Wide Receiver the Mexicans turned over about 99,000 weapons they had confiscated to the US ...
How would your vote go if you know that the President and/or his DOJ was directly involved in the desicions that caused the death of an American border agent.
How would your vote go if you know that the President and/or his DOJ was directly involved in the desicions that caused the death of an American border agent.
Quagmire. I wonder if Quicksand Jesus can get out of this. He seems to be unraveling.
obama and holder knew..they got caught with thier hand in a cookie jar....cracks me up..
so what do you know that nobody else knows? Even Issa.
Maybe you are just a right wing lunatic. By the way, this gun running started in 2006
David, when did it end under the program prior to Fast & Furious? Which administration implemented Fast & Furious?
What if what Holder is withholding would prove that Bush personally approved of the operations? Would you still support that the documents aren't being turned over?
And stopped in 2007 by Bush as a failure because the Mexican government could not complete the tracking.
Fast and Furious started in 2009 and ended in 2011.
Do not give an inch to those who seek not the truth but political point. They will never go be satisfied with what you provide. There is always something else, political witch hunts
Luckily, there is something called judicial system. Hopefully it's still working
Obama has contempt for the highest court in the land.
I likewise have contempt for the Court. If they support the buying of politicians thru unlimited contributions by corporations or anyone else they are undermining our democracy.