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Subscribe to RSSNBC News has obtained a copy of a seven-page letter from House Oversight Chairman Darrell Issa to Barack Obama that raises the stakes in the stand-off between Congress and the attorney general.
In the letter, Issa challenges the president's assertion of executive privilege over documents sought by the committee in the "Operation Fast & Furious" investigation.
Issa requests the president provide a formal, legal justification for the privilege claim and a list of specific documents covered by it.
Issa points to case law that maintains executive privilege is reserved for direct presidential decision-making.
The California Republican ratchets up the pressure by stating that either the president's "most senior advisers were involved in managing Operation Fast & Furious ... and the fallout" or the White House is asserting "a presidential power that you know to be unjustified solely for the purpose of further obstructing a congressional investigation."
The letter includes the president's own public statements that neither he nor Holder knew about or authorized the operation.
Issa asks why and the attorney general was offering certain documents last week with the condition that the contempt citation be dropped but the next day those same documents were shielded by executive privilege.
The chairman says there has been no explanation for how Holder could tell the president that releasing the documents would result in "significant damaging consequences" only hours after saying he could provide them to congressional leaders if contempt was off the table.
Rep. Issa: No evidence of White House cover-up in 'Fast and Furious' gun-running case
The chairman goes through the history of the case, the death of border agent Brian Terry and reminds the president that Attorney General Holder provided false information to Congress on Feb. 4, 2011 in a letter that denied the gun operation permitted illegally bought weapons to cross into Mexico.
The Justice Department retracted that denial months later. Issa pointedly states that lying to Congress is a crime itself and says the subpoenaed documents pertain to Holder's denial and internal communications that brought about the subsequent correction.
In a new request, Issa also asks for any communications between the White House and Justice between the date of the false denial and June 18, 2012, the day before privilege was asserted.
Issa rejects criticism that the contempt vote is purely political. He complains that Holder referred to the committee's action as an "election-year tactic."
Issa writes that "nothing could be further from the truth. This statement not only betrays a total lack of understanding of our investigation, it exemplifies the stonewalling we have consistently faced."
Still, the House Oversight Chairman tells the president he is "hopeful the Attorney General will provide the specified documents so that we can work towards resolving this matter short of a contempt citation."
Leave a Comment:
No leader is "privileged" to break or ignore laws, especially ones he has sworn an oath before God and the American People to uphold.
Just one more piece of paper, destined for the Presidential Shredder...as soon as the can clear the jam caused by the Constitution and all the Laws that were deemed to be too troublesome to getting re-elected
JDSTILL - ISSA on Sunday's programs said he didn't think the White House was involved but nice try - love your uninformed post
Come back when you really know something
Then again I bet you really loved Bush and Cheney
One of two things is going on here. Either the White House has been lying from the start and they were both aware of and involved with the decision making regarding Fast and Furious as well as the subsequent attempts to cover it up or the President is illegally asserting executive privilege over documents it does not apply to. In either case it seems that the Obama White House is actively involved in the illegal obstruction of a Congressional investigation. Obama feels that he is above the law and routinely ignores laws he finds inconvenient or instructs others in his administration to not enforce duly passed federal statutes. These actions are a violation of his oath of office. If Obama persists in these actions to illegally obstruct the Congressional investigation he should be impeached.
No leader is "privileged" to break or ignore laws
Except for George Bush?? Issa has already admitted on Fox he has NO evidence of a cover up or anyone lying. this is nothing more than grandstanding by Issa just like his hearings on women's health issues were earlier this year -- the one where no women were allowed to testify. President Obama should do the same thing Bush did time after time --- tell congress to go pound sand -- his people are NOT going to testify.
So JD...didn't the members of Congress take a similar oath? Do you think that their little soiree on inaugaration night where they pledged to take down Obama regardless of consequences may have been in conflict with that oath? I suggest that they conspired to commit treason on that night and subsequently DID commit treason. I find it ironic that men guilty of treason are attempting to hold Obama responsible for ANYTHING! They should be tried and, if convicted, executed. They have contributed immeasurably to American misery and suffering. Ironically, if they had left Obama alone and given him time, he may have ruined himself with poor management but as it is now, we'll never know because much of Obama's shortcomings and failures belong rightfully at the doorsteps of the repugnicans. I am tired of tolerating a party that has such contempt for the American voter and citizen that even after they've lost an election, they immediately set about trying to undo the results. It's time to send the GOP to visit the Whigs.
Some much for the most transparent and open administration.
Obama's been a joke of a President. He's in why over his head, but then it's really our fault, for electing him to office despite any experience or qualifications. Something the American people will correct in November!
NOBAMA 2012!
"No leader is "privileged" to break or ignore laws, especially ones he has sworn an oath before God and the American People to uphold."
You mean the pledges sworn by GOP elected officials - at all levels of government office - to Grover Norquist?
For GOP/Koch, it is 'Norquist first'. Not their constituents.
I like how Bush claimed the same thing 6 times in 8 years and the repubs have their panties in a wad about Obama claiming it once. Obama needs to get ghetto on all their asses and watch 'em cower and run away. You know, just like they do when it's war time and somehow the repubs just go away after yapping about going to war. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld should all be up on charges in the Hauge for crimes against humanity, false intelligence gathering, and invading Iraq under false pretences and the repubs are whinning over a few papers. Put the smackdown on them Obama and watch 'em cry and run home to mama, like bohner already does!! Dumbass crybabies....waaaahhh, call a waambulace!!
Bush was a joke of a President. He was in way over his head, but then it was really your fault, for electing him to office despite any experience or qualifications. Something the American people did correct in November 2008!!
GOBAMA 2012!
Sworn to take care of themselves it just an old story happens no matter who is in power come on
I can think of only two reasons the President decided to invoke privilege:
1) The white house had direct knowledge and/or culpability regarding this inane program.
2) The President is an angry, childish, spiteful person who just decided he didn't want to play ball anymore, so he's taking his home.
Given how divisive, arrogant, and autocratic he is, I vote for the second.
Gee, I just realized that this president and the last one have more in common than I thought...
Barbara Adams Jackson
I'm Baaaaaaaaaaaack! Mr. Issa actually said He didn't know if the White House was involved, but let us reason together shall We? For 18 months Mr. Holder pleaded ignorance, said He didn't know what was going on in His Own Department, but He took Officials Who obviously should have known what was going on, and brought them from Arizona to Washington where They could be kept an eye on, all The while claiming He Knew NooooooooThing!Not even why They were brought here, and still pleaded incompetence, Mr. Obama took up the mantra, also in effect saying He was also incompetent, didn't know What was going on or why HIS Top law enforcement official was so ignorant or incompetent, but what could HE do about it ?, I mean HE was only the President! Then all of a sudden when time was up,He pleads the fifth, (oops! got my Criminal procedings mixed up!), I mean He exerts Executive Privilege, Now,ask Yourself, How can You plead Executive Privilege for something You didn't know anything about and communications You say You never had? SOMEBODY IS LYING SOMEWHERE!, TWO AMERICAN LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS ARE DEAD,HUNDREDS OF MEXICANS ARE DEAD FROM THE THOUSANDS OF WEAPONS SOMEBODY IN THIS ADMINISTRATION ILLEGALLY LET BE SMUGGLED INTO MEXICO AND EVERYBODY IN THIS ADMINISTRATION IS SO IGNORANT AND INCOMPETENT, THEY KNOW NOTHING ABOUT IT AND CAN"T EVEN FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENED GIVEN EIGHTEEN MONTHS TO WORK ON IT!
Did these Presidents learn nothing from Richard Nixon. The ultimate power hog got slapped down by the Burger court. We don't elect dictators in this country which is why I'm going Romney in November.
Shouldn't Shrub be subpoenaed?
This was his policy, after all.
It is absolutely an election year tactic. When are the Democrats going to learn. The Republicans have beeing pulling this stunt since the days of Tricky Dick Nixon. The Democrats need to fight back with the same tactic. At least half the Republican lawmakers in Washington and around the country should be arrested for infuence peddling, bribery, lying picking up men in airport bathrooms and accosting under-age Congressional Pages. It should start with Bush & Cheney. Then every Republican should be looked at with an eye towards prosecution.
Interesting to see all you libs in here avoiding the question, as usual.
News flash: Bush isn't President anymore, so your recalling history is a specious argument.
Remember " I DID NOT have sex with that woman" ? That has about as much relevance to your beliefs on executive privelage as does anything Bush did: none.
Obama has to fire Holder, it's that simple. A lot of people like me who are middle of the road think Holder is the torpedo that is going to sink the USS Obama.
OR, would you prefer Romney in November?
J.D.Still
No leader is "privileged" to break or ignore laws, especially ones he has sworn an oath before God and the American People to uphold.
And yet most of them in my lifetime have done so with impunity going back to Eisenhower's raid of Social Security funds to cover debt he / we incurred.
BEGreen3850
Did these Presidents learn nothing from Richard Nixon. The ultimate power hog got slapped down by the Burger court. We don't elect dictators in this country which is why I'm going Romney in November.
Apparently not.
For all of you folks that do not believe the White House and Attorney General were involved in Fast & Furious from the beginning, I give you the proof that they were. March 24, 2009... Since you cannot post links on this site, you will have to type the www and then paste the following into your browser.
.c-spanvideo.org/program/284798-4
Please pay close attention to the audio. It will tell you who knew what over two years ago.
The RantBush on the Constitution: 'It's just a goddamned piece of paper'By DOUG THOMPSONDec 9, 2005, 07:53
Last month, Republican Congressional leaders filed into the Oval Office to meet with President George W. Bush and talk about renewing the controversial USA Patriot Act.
Several provisions of the act, passed in the shell shocked period immediately following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, caused enough anger that liberal groups like the American Civil Liberties Union had joined forces with prominent conservatives like Phyllis Schlafly and Bob Barr to oppose renewal.
GOP leaders told Bush that his hardcore push to renew the more onerous provisions of the act could further alienate conservatives still mad at the President from his botched attempt to nominate White House Counsel Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court.
“I don’t give a goddamn,” Bush retorted. “I’m the President and the Commander-in-Chief. Do it my way.”
“Mr. President,” one aide in the meeting said. “There is a valid case that the provisions in this law undermine the Constitution.”
“Stop throwing the Constitution in my face,” Bush screamed back. “It’s just a goddamned piece of paper!”
I’ve talked to three people present for the meeting that day and they all confirm that the President of the United States called the Constitution “a goddamned piece of paper.”
And, to the Bush Administration, the Constitution of the United States is little more than toilet paper stained from all the s**t that this group of power-mad despots have dumped on the freedoms that “goddamned piece of paper” used to guarantee.
Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, while still White House counsel, wrote that the “Constitution is an outdated document.”
Put aside, for a moment, political affiliation or personal beliefs. It doesn’t matter if you are a Democrat, Republican or Independent. It doesn’t matter if you support the invasion or Iraq or not. Despite our differences, the Constitution has stood for two centuries as the defining document of our government, the final source to determine – in the end – if something is legal or right.
Every federal official – including the President – who takes an oath of office swears to “uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States."
Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia says he cringes when someone calls the Constitution a “living document.”
“"Oh, how I hate the phrase we have—a 'living document,’” Scalia says. “We now have a Constitution that means whatever we want it to mean. The Constitution is not a living organism, for Pete's sake.”
As a judge, Scalia says, “I don't have to prove that the Constitution is perfect; I just have to prove that it's better than anything else.”
President Bush has proposed seven amendments to the Constitution over the last five years, including a controversial amendment to define marriage as a “union between a man and woman.” Members of Congress have proposed some 11,000 amendments over the last decade, ranging from repeal of the right to bear arms to a Constitutional ban on abortion.
Scalia says the danger of tinkering with the Constitution comes from a loss of rights.
“We can take away rights just as we can grant new ones,” Scalia warns. “Don't think that it's a one-way street.”
And don’t buy the White House hype that the USA Patriot Act is a necessary tool to fight terrorism. It is a dangerous law that infringes on the rights of every American citizen and, as one brave aide told President Bush, something that undermines the Constitution of the United States.
But why should Bush care? After all, the Constitution is just “a goddamned piece of paper.”
O'Bama has lied to the American people from before he was elected as President. His Administration is full of half-truths, broken promises and the destruction of the U.S. Economy. We have a so-called President who encourages and supports other countries to take U.S. State Governments to court. He fails to secure our borders and actually encourages and supports those who defy our laws and uses U.S. Tax dollars to support those illegals. He has supported the use of our military, without the support of other elected leaders in accordance with the U.S. Constitution. He himself, the U.S. President, ignores our laws and Constitution when it does not support his wishes. On the other hand, he "uses" the U.S. Constitution when it appears to be on his side. In other words, he uses the Constitution as a weapon against Legal U.S. Citizens. As President, he has always blamed others for his personal total failures and his failure as President of the U.S.. He makes "deals" with other countries (Russia) so he doesn't have to make any decisions until "after" the next election. O'Bama will do and has done anything for the "Vote" forgetting about the Legal U.S. Citizens whom he lies too on a daily basis. I believe "Fast & Furious" and the Leaking of Classified information from the White House will be "O'Bama's Watergate" and lead to his removal from the Office of President. His boy Eric will not go to jail or be sacrificed for O'Bama, someone will talk. O'Bama and the Socialist Entitlement Government will not survive. O'Bama, through his actions, will start another war in this country that he will not be able to control. O'Bama's Spring is coming and he may need NATO & Europe to protect himself.
Yes Mr. Issa, but how do you KNOW the President is a witch?
Issa: If he weighs the same as a duck...
GOPTP crowd: HE'S A WITCH!!!
I think its called both can play the same game, so when Obama does the same thing everyone whines. Its about time he gives them some of their own medicine. OBAMA 2012
Kevin Q, in an earier post you recommended the President go 'ghetto on their asses'. Very eloquent. But what actually struck a nerve with me is another quote:
Actually, I think they are trying to figure out the tragedy of an American Law Enforcement Officer getting killed. I know it's hard to see through the tinted glasses....but regardless of the Presidents political party, what is he trying to hide? What possible motive could he have to claim the executive privilege?
I dont necessarily think the President was involved, nor do I think that any of his advisors are trying to cover anything up....I think the President is trying to protect his friend. While admirable, this isnt the time or place for it. An American died, and the family and the American public are owed some answers.
Kevin Q are you smoking something?
GOBAMA 2012!
Obama who has no business or Political experience. At least Bush was a Governor. America will get it right when he is gone!!!!
The CRIMINAL in this case Mr. Issa is far to desperate. His criminal self knows he is far to wrong and the true criminal as is his family yet still believes himself to be holier than thou. ; ] Creating any jobs son? I thought not. I would go ahead and have Holder investigate Mr. Issa to no end. You will find two men in particular in his background of interest still playing a part in his life. ; ]
I guess WHEN the only people you talk to are those of your own ilk thinking your always right comes naturally.. ; ]
Cheers
Kevin Q- I am neither Republican, Democrat. I am not a fool to believe either party. But it seems you only want the truth that makes Republicans look bad, and you are OK with Obama hiding facts that cover his buddies butt. That is what is wrong with this country. You only care about you political party instead of what is best for this country. You fully believe that the Democratic way is right. Well if you have any common sense you will realize that both parties have had a hand in destroying this country. Neither side is going to save this nation from economic fall. Did you know that Hillary Clinton just gave 2 billion to 3rd world leaders to help with the climate conditions? I guess that is OK? Did you also know your beloved Presidents Fuel Czar wants the US to pay $5-6 a gallon of gas? Do you have any idea how many small business' will go under if that happens? Yeah Obama is the answer. No way. He is doing what the last 4 Presidents are doing. Running this country into the ground and helping their friends evade crimes, and helping their friends make cash. I guess it is OK that Pelosi changed her financial portfolio and made 2 million dollars last year. Since she sits on the committee that she sees what stocks are going up and down. Both parties are guilty but I bet you believe she is allowed to do that?
Everyone is assuming that the President involved for which Executive Privilege is being cited is Obama, however, as Fast and Furious started under the Bush administration, it could also be George W.
As President of the United States, Obama must also consider protecting the OFFICE of the President. That transcends partisan politics.
Have you ever noticed how, as President, Obama has NOT publicly critiqued any of the prior Presidents, and the prior Presidents do not critique him? Even though Obama is a captive of the policies of the Presidents that came before him?
They are all members of the most exclusive club in the world, The President's Club, it's the reason Hoover helped Truman, Eisenhower helped Johnson, Ford pardoned Nixon, the Kennedy's gave Ford a Profile in Courage Award, Ford became part of Clinton's impeachment defense team, that Bill Clinton and George H W Bush work together as friends, and that George W Bush told Obama after the 2008 election, "All of us who have served in this office want you to succeed because this office transcends the individual".
It would be nice if all Americans felt as George W Bush did toward the office.
Gotta cover for the brutha!
Yea, Gunrunner started under Bush, but the parameters of Fast & Furious were a bit different. If Obama personally makes decisions on the 'kill list' of terrorists, then I'm sure he knew exactly how F&F was going to operate.
Legalize, regulate and tax marijuana. Apologize for the guns that got away from us. Fire Holder, and make things right for those whistleblowers and others that got screwed by this whole botched job.
Gotta love election year politics in the Congress. Everyone becomes an expert. Folks, wake up, this is all theater.
Let me see if I have this correct, Nixon, Eisenhower, Kennedy, Clinton, Bush, and Hoover, never used Executive Powers. Obama is the only President to use one time in all these years. OK got it. I guess if he hadn't done it Bushes Butt would be in a bind. Yeh, did I get it?
Barbara Adams Jackson (post 1.2)
Nice try, but what Rep. Issa said on Fox News Sundy, was that he didn’t have any evidence of White House involvement.
Of course he doesn’t have the documents that he’s subpoenaed also, so that seems reasonable. How do you get evidence when people refuse to turn over the documents. That’s like saying you don’t have evidence of a suspected murder when the homeowner won’t allow you into the house.
But tell us, Barbara Adams Jackson, just how can the President say these documents are sudden “privileged” when 12 hours later, Holder was going to agree to release them, if only Issa would agree to end his investigation? After meeting with Issa, Holder said he “offered a briefing, followed by the release of the documents, as long as the Rep. Issa offered assurances to end the investigation”.
Clearly the Administration is up to no good. Please stop trying to defend the indefensible.
NOBAMA 2012!
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I love how the same people just viciously attacking Obama on this are the same ones who kept telling everyone that Zimmerman was innocent until proven guilty. Why would that be? Seems a little hypocritical, now, doesn't it? I guess it means only the assh*les they like (or are most like) are innocent until proven guilty. Democrats and black people can burn for all you guys care, right? Of course it is.
Kevan Q: What - are you, 2?!? Your post calls out a previous post with your answer below it:
Bush was a joke of a President. He was in way over his head, but then it was really your fault, for electing him to office despite any experience or qualifications. Something the American people did correct in November 2008!!
Your response sounds like a child's game of "whatever you call me, bounces back and sticks to you". WTF?!?
All you right wingers really crack me up with all your fake outrage. This is a witch hunt. Your all acting just like my grandchildren when they don't get their way. A quick time out for all of you. My stars GROW UP!!! issa is grandstanding. The President uses executive privilege once and you panties get in knot. To bad the Democrats didn't do this to jr, bush. Imagine if the Democrats did what the republican/tea bag party is doing to this President. Your heads would have exploded. In both operations by both Attorney Generals. made mistakes. If anything how we haven't heard from the other Attorney General from bush administration he started all this. I'm sure he could provide some answers why he started a program this stupid. As for the current Attorney General he should resign for extending a bush operation. After it was a bush operation that pretty well says it was doomed to be a mistake from the start.
By the way where was the outrage when the bush administration outed a CIA agent? Where was the outrage over no WMD's? Where was the outrage when the economy took a dump at the end of 2008 over bush"s failed policy's?
If this is all political, as Obama and Holder would like us to believe, then why don't they call the Committee's bluff and turn over the papers? If they have nothing to hide, why/what ARE they hiding? We should all be reminded that this committee is BIPARTISAN. Bush and his AG turned over ALL documents concerning a similar policy in the past.
6dogs , Anyone else killed with those other executive orders? If it was your Brother, Son, Father, Wife, Sister, anyone close to you MURDERED and covered up, you would have the same answer? Just to save some inept Attorney Generals lies! Doubt it.
@Smitty
I do particularly find it amusing, when the Bush Haters, use Bush to defend Obama...You do understand that Bush left office with an approval rating in the mid 20's...that wasn't just code pink...thanks for the laugh
A couple of things that were not in Issa's letter:
1) "Fast and Furious" is an on-going investigation of illegal sales by quasi-legal gun shops to known buyers for Mexican drug cartels. It is far from over and the Justice Department has a right, as does every attorney general in the United States, to withhold details of an ongoing investigation. This is far from the first time that Congress had tried to meddle or politisize an ongoing Justice Dept investigation --- an ongoing tactic by southern politicians during the Civil Rights Era, as just one example.
2) Where is the impetus for this? The answer is very simple. The NRA is desparately trying to stop "Fast and Furious" and similar investigations into illegal gun-running. There are literally billions of dollars at stake here. We're talking about 20,000 weapons a week at an average price of $750-$1,000 each going to Mexico and exotic weapons (mines, anti-tank weapons, heavy machine guns, etc) by the thousands as well. These Texas and Arizona gun shops are big business and big controbitors to the NRA. For proof, one only needs to look at who caused the ATF to lose track of one lot of 2,000 guns --- the NRA had the ATF database sealed for six months pending a hearing (which they lost.) But the loss of access to the database was ultimately responsible for the death of two Border Patrol officers and countless others on both sides of the border.
The NRA had serious blood on its hands with this issue and Issa is its water-carrier. The NRA snaps its fingers and people like Issa jump because of the political reality that the NRA can influence a great deal of the GOP vote.
My lord we seem to have so so many Constitutional lawyers ,experts on costitutional law and professor that teach constitutional laws here on newsvine'
If you can't see this is a political issue,in an election year by Issa, then you never saw all the attacks on Bush as political issues/attacks
'The California Republican ratchets up the pressure by stating that either the president's "most senior advisers were involved in managing Operation Fast & Furious ... and the fallout" or the White House is asserting "a presidential power that you know to be unjustified solely for the purpose of further obstructing a congressional investigation." '
So is Obama directly involved in the cover-up?
Shades of Nixon and Watergate.
Kevin Q (post 1.8)
Sorry buddy but that dog won’t hunt. Bush was a two term Governor of Texas, a successful businessman in the oil industry, co-owner of the Texas Rangers, a commissioned officer in the Air National Guard and had an MBA from Harvard, with about the same undergraduate GPA at Yale as John Kerry.
What were Obama’s qualifications to serve as the Chief Executive of our Country? He was a member of Illinois State Assembly, a Community Organizer, a College Instructor, a Lawyer, a US Senator for two years where he essentially spent all his time campaigning for President.
Tell me Kevin, when did Obama ever manage or run anything? I hardly think being a Community Organizer is the same as being a State Governor for five years. The proof is in the pudding. Obama has been a total failure.
NOBAMA 2012!
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mr.pheaniques If it weren't for the bush administration we wouldn't be having this discussion now. Would we?
@smitty
You are probably correct about that...I doubt we would have been allowed to use Al Gore's Internet to talk bad about him...
So repubs don't know, what they don't know. And..they admit they don't know , what they don't know, that they don't know. How can they don't know, what they don't know about what they don't know? We do know that they don't know, what they don't know. But they don't care that we all know, that they don't know, that they don't know. If repubs did know, what they don't know, about what they don't know, we would know what they don't know about what they don't know about.
Burma Shave
anybody that was employed by the government in any level of law enforcement; will tell you; the only way this operation could take place is; it had to have the go ahead from the highest of authority's, in plain words, this nightmare had to be approved by the white-house.
Press Secretary Jay Carney laid it out perfectly when he said that Obama exerted executive privilege over the fast and furious documents out of principle. Principle. Not because it was lawful to do so, but out of principle. Obama does not consider himself president, he fashions himself king. Obama feels he is above the constitution, above all laws, and free to do whatever he wants. Unqualified to be president, or king for that matter is hardly a strong enough description for how bad Obama has been for our country.
Many Presidents have used the Executive Privilege, in some cases it's because the President is protecting someone, but the process is also used to stop the release of document that could compromise ongoing covert operations of pose a threat to national security if published. We don't know which reason the papers have been withheld for, and both options are equally as likely. So stop complaining already. You can be anything you want on the internet, why do so many of you choose to be stupid?
Someone got caught with their pants down. The Holder version of what started in 2006 was botched and someone needs to hang for it.
You just have to admire the sheer hypocrisy of the president and his Atty. Gen. who stand before the public and demand justice for Trayvon Martin. Then withhold subpoenaed documents and invoke executive privilege involving the death of border guard Brian Terry. Mr. Terry's parents have asked this administration numerous times for answers involving their son and this is what our president has done. Where is the constant coverage for the Terry family? Why isn't MSNBC having daily articles for the Terry family? This will be the undoing of the Obama administration and maybe that's a good thing for this country.
Where have you been?
News flash: Bush isn't President anymore,
You Republicans have a very short memory. From 1976 to 1992 you whined and cried, moan and groaned and complained and complained more and bitched, carried on and on and blamed President Carter of everything wrong in the entire universe. Then from 1992 to 2008 you whined and cried, moan and groaned and complained and complained more and bitched, carried on and on and blamed President Clinton for everything that was wrong in the entire universe. So – using the standard you set – the left has another 29 years to blame Bush for everything just to pull even with you.
So under what rock was Issa and other Republicans hiding during the gestapo, corrupt days of Bush and Dick???? Oh, I forgot that it is okay for them to commit crimes, esp. war crimes; but not allowed for anyone else.
"So is Obama directly involved in the cover-up?"
Issa admitted on Fox last Sunday that there is NO EVIDENCE OF ANY COVER UP OR LYING BY THE WHITE HOUSE.
The Justice Department has stated it is in the middle of an ongoing investigation into Fast and Furious. When in the middle of an ongoing investigation, NO police agency is going to turn over documents and reports that are pertinent to that investigation. Anything turned over to Congress and read in open chambers become PUBLIC RECORD, searchable on the Internet. Anything that goes into a Congressional report becomes PUBLIC RECORD, again - searchable online. This would give those people who may have been involved in the actual transaction advance notice about what the JD knows and what direction the investigation is headed - all because Issa wants to be engaged in a pi$$ing match with Justice and the Presidency. Issa is willing to jeopardize actually bringing the people responsible for Terry's murder to justice all to satisfy a quienes mas macho urge.
Under that theory maybe Issa is right that it's not political at the base ... it's just about whose is bigger - like in the school locker room and shower.
J.D.Still
"In making the case for war, the Administration repeatedly presented intelligence as fact when in reality it was unsubstantiated, contradicted, or even non-existent. As a result, the American people were led to believe that the threat from Iraq was much greater than actually existed."
"It is my belief that the Bush Administration was fixated on Iraq, and used the 9/11 attacks by al Qa'ida as justification for overthrowing Saddam Hussein. To accomplish this, top Administration officials made repeated statements that falsely linked Iraq and al Qa'ida as a single threat and insinuated that Iraq played a role in 9/11. Sadly, the Bush Administration led the nation into war under false pretenses.
Senate Intelligence Committee
http://intelligence.senate.gov/press/record.cfm?id=298775
Since you feel so strongly about our leaders breaking or ignoring laws, you must be so outraged at the Bush Administration as well!
Charlie-1915998 "Issa admitted on Fox last Sunday that there is NO EVIDENCE OF ANY COVER UP OR LYING BY THE WHITE HOUSE."
Perhaps that's why Issa wants the documents and why Obama won't give them up - we won't know for sure until they get the documents.
Why is Obama so concerned about giving them documents - especially since 'Executive Privilege' only applies to White House involvement - not internal documents of the Justice Department.
first of all the president has the right to do EP. he ain't going to give issa the felon what he want's because it would break the law. there are things that nobdy can know because it would put people in harms way......think valerie plame. and anyway holder didn't mange the operation he killed it. the bush people were running it. and why hasn't issa the felon call any of the people from his own party to testify ? they were the ones running guns. the answer is because he just want's to put holder in the capital prison and smear this administration. and all you right wingers can say what you want but that's the truth.
Charlie-195..... You are missing the point... There is no evidence of wrongdoing by the Whitehouse because an examination of the evidence has not been allowed by the Whitehouse.
The blockade of potential evidence of wrongdoing by the Obama administration is the entire point of this drama!!!
Obama has no authority to invoke presidential powers in this way unless he was personally involved in the requested documents. But since he has already said he knew nothing, and had no involvement in any of this, HE HAS NO POWER TO WITHHOLD THE REQUESTED INFORMATION. He is overstepping his authority and writing rules even GWB didn't try.
Look at this as an objective independent. And look at this based on its own merrit... Obama is in the wrong. He has broken his promise of transparency.
John-2006106, you must LOVE revisionist history concerning Bush's 'successful' years as the head of oil companies, baseball teams and the National Guard, let alone being Governor and President. The business record of Bush shows revealing insights to how his Presidency has operated, and helps to explain why the country had fallen so deeply in debt and has so many other problems. The oil companies in his control LOST money, he violated Fed securities laws 4 times and it was all hushed by his daddy, the then President. What Bush did to his 'successful businesses,' he did to America as President, including; huge deficits, mismanagement, deception and cronyism (Enron, Halburton, Harken Energy, to name a few). That doesn't include the Bush family's cozy relationship with Saudi royalty for over FORTY years, which also included the BIN LADEN family. Of course Bush also demanded that documents pertaining to the Saudi relationship be stricken and kept out of the hands of the House Intelligence committees (Oh wait, is that kind of like a 'Presidential Executive Order?'). Bush's main advisor, Carl Rove, inducted the famed, or maybe infamous, Machiavellian principles into Bush's Presidency, and bringing to the forefront, a more 'theocracy-laced' government. Or how about how U.S. students have suffered overall stagnation or decline in math, reading and science in the years since his NCLB was passed, yep, that was successful. As an 'owner' of the Texas Rangers, which his stake was only 1/8% of the team, he was GIVEN money by the same people and his daddy, who were also the ones to come to his aid of the same failed oil companies. They gave him $600,000, and under his management the deal was going to fail until the baseball commissioner brought in another investment group to save the team. Then Bush stiffed the tax payers and they had to impose a tax hike, while he ran away with millions in subsidies when he left. Bush consistently and shamelessly sought and received favorable treatment
while he avoided Vietnam, mostly because his daddy and grandpa were in Congress, was admitted as soon as he applied, though there was a waiting list and he was 12 days from losing his 'student deferment' status, got a special commission as a 2nd Lieutenant, without qualifications; it was because of the name BUSH, didn't SHOW UP for a YEAR, without penalty, skipped ALL medical exams after they started drug testing, and ended his term of involvement 10 months early to go to Harvard. Yep, talk about 'dogs that don't hunt.'
I am neither democrat, nor republican, am not a tea bagger, and would never vote on party politics so I really do not care what representatives are claiming unless they lie about their practices or intentions.
What I do remember is Obama running for president with "TRANSPARENCY IN GOVERNMENT" as a major part of his campaign promises, to insure that we as a country could clean out corrupt governmental involvements across the USA.
I fail to see how implementing Executive Privilege over the release of documents follows his promise.
Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Now it seems that he has gone the 'if you can't beat them, join them' road.
He might as well have just said it doesn't matter what comes of it all because he will be passing out the Presidential Pardons like Halloween candy, then the whole issue would be laid to rest.
No point to prosecuting any act you can convict with no consequence involved.
Starsailing - I'm still not sure If I do not know, what I know about what we know about what we don't know.
Pretty funny.
Good post.
this is just an attempt to make Holder a 1 term AG !!!!!
Issa is exactly right, we have the right to know who how that agent was killed. Jughead is just helping cover it all up. Either he knows all about it or he's covering Witholder because he's black.
George W. Bush administration
The Bush administration invoked executive privilege on six occasions.
President George W. Bush first asserted executive privilege to deny disclosure of sought details regarding former Attorney General Janet Reno,[2] the scandal involving Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) misuse of organized-crime informants James J. Bulger and Stephen Flemmi in Boston, and Justice Department deliberations about President Bill Clinton's fundraising tactics, in December 2001.[8]
Bush invoked executive privilege "in substance" in refusing to disclose the details of Vice President Dick Cheney's meetings with energy executives, which was not appealed by the GAO. In a separate Supreme Court decision in 2004, however, Justice Anthony Kennedy noted "Executive privilege is an extraordinary assertion of power 'not to be lightly invoked.' United States v. Reynolds, 345 U.S. 1, 7 (1953).
"Once executive privilege is asserted, coequal branches of the Government are set on a collision course. The Judiciary is forced into the difficult task of balancing the need for information in a judicial proceeding and the Executive’s Article II prerogatives. This inquiry places courts in the awkward position of evaluating the Executive’s claims of confidentiality and autonomy, and pushes to the fore difficult questions of separation of powers and checks and balances. These 'occasion[s] for constitutional confrontation between the two branches' are likely to be avoided whenever possible. United States v. Nixon, supra, at 692."[9]
Further, on June 28, 2007, Bush invoked executive privilege in response to congressional subpoenas requesting documents from former presidential counsel Harriet Miers and former political director Sara Taylor,[10] citing that:
On July 9, 2007, Bush again invoked executive privilege to block a congressional subpoena requiring the testimonies of Taylor and Miers. Furthermore, White House Counsel Fred F. Fielding refused to comply with a deadline set by the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee to explain its privilege claim, prove that the president personally invoked it, and provide logs of which documents were being withheld. On July 25, 2007, the House Judiciary Committee voted to cite Miers and White House Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten for contempt of Congress.[11][12]
On July 13, less than a week after claiming executive privilege for Miers and Taylor, Counsel Fielding effectively claimed the privilege once again, this time in relation to documents related to the 2004 death of Army Ranger Pat Tillman. In a letter to the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, Fielding claimed certain papers relating to discussion of the friendly-fire shooting “implicate Executive Branch confidentiality interests” and would therefore not be turned over to the committee.[13]
On August 1, 2007, Bush invoked the privilege for the fourth time in little over a month, this time rejecting a subpoena for Karl Rove. The subpoena would have required the President's Senior Advisor to testify before the Senate Judiciary Committee in a probe over fired federal prosecutors. In a letter to Senate Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy, Fielding claimed that "Mr. Rove, as an immediate presidential advisor, is immune from compelled congressional testimony about matters that arose during his tenure and that relate to his official duties in that capacity...."[14]
Leahy claimed that President Bush was not involved with the employment terminations of U.S. attorneys. Furthermore, he asserted that the president's executive privilege claims protecting Josh Bolten, and Karl Rove are illegal. The Senator demanded that Bolten, Rove, Sara Taylor, and J. Scott Jennings comply "immediately" with their subpoenas, presumably to await a further review of these matters. This development paved the way for a Senate panel vote on whether to advance the citations to the full Senate. "It is obvious that the reasons given for these firings were contrived as part of a cover up and that the stonewalling by the White House is part and parcel of that same effort", Leahy concluded about these incidents.[15][16][17][18]
As of July 17, 2008, Rove is still claiming executive privilege to avoid a congressional subpoena. Rove's lawyer writes that his client is "constitutionally immune from compelled congressional testimony."[19]
After reading here what President Bush used executive privilege for how can Issa have any problem with the one time President Obama is using it.....nation security is the trump card here..........at least he is not protecting the likes of Karl Rove. Honestly, Mr. Issa should be investigated...like to know how much money lands in his accounts and who is is really working for............sure does not seem to be the American people--------I mean, we need jobs and a robust economy and he is stuck on trying to prove something that does not exist by gaining access to information that he has no legal privy to while waging his personal war on the President in the court of public opinion. When people grandstand and posture and threaten and fan the flames of paranoia and discontent we should take a closer look at the hidden agenda.....claiming the Presidents announcement to aid Latino children is political and then claiming this witch hunt into privileged communications with overtones of conspiracy are not political is just ludicrous. Typical republican tactic........distract from their floundering candidate and his inability to answer questions by pandering to claims of conspiracy and deceit in the White House. Issa has been investigating this with tax payer money for well over a year and to date has no evidence that the President is involved in any wrong doing. So, the questions begs, how much time away from getting folks jobs and addressing the economical problems is Issa willing to put into, along with butts loads of money the economy can scarcely afford, this witch hunt? It is described as a witch hunt as with over a year of exhaustive investigation there is no evidence of wrong going. Mr. Issa is fulfilling a republican agenda and not looking after the best interests of the American people or our nation....a colossal waste of time and money. How long will this continue? When will Mr. Issa admit that there is nothing to find? How much time and money are we willing to afford Mr. Issa for his hidden agenda?
Mr. Issa...........work on getting folks jobs and boosting our economy...what you are doing may distract from your Presidential candidates ineptitude but it sure won't help him in the debates. Stop wasting our time and money and do what you are paid to do....admit you are wrong and get on with helping the job situation.
Republicans can't get President Obama on anything related to affairs with women like they did President Clinton so this is what they do...........look for things that are not there and get folks are worked up and mad knowing what you do is misleading and deceitful. Republicans don't know how to deal with a good decent person or the fact that he is black...........time for the republican party to go away..and take Karl, Grover, Rush, Palin and Bachman with you...The world needs progressive ideas to survive not a police state where only white males have rights and everyone else has none. Even God almighty must have problems with the republican party as they attack His children...are we not all created in Gods image, does not God love ALL MANKIND?..
Pastie white guys no longer welcome.....we are the world, get used to it.
George Bush drove the Titanic into an iceberg, Obama is backing up the Titanic to ram the iceberg again.
I'm reminded of a silly puppy chasing its tail as I watch Issa who apparently thinks he's Ken Starr.
Thomas Blue - Issa should watch his behind - he is probably the most corrupt sitting Congressman we have and the richest - $450 Million
People that can do no better than use silly names and toss around Marxist and dictator like confetti probably ought to do a little more learning before making posts.
Hugh, that may be right, maybe not. But it's provable that Issa was part of a conspiracy against the POTUS and this country. That makes him a traitor and a criminal. When the judge is dirty, it's time to stop the trial and get a new judge. Actually, Newsweek had a cover story shortly after the 2010 elections about Issa and how dangerous he would be to Obama and how he and the GOP would attempt to tie up as many things as possible with investigations. I know most GOPers don't like all of those word books but it seems they were right now, doesn't it.
Incidentally, I would love for you to prove me wrong but I will go out on a limb and state that you can't even define Marxist specifically.
Ken Starr is the one who hounded Persident Clinton for having a fling and then was subsequently found out to be having his own. Newt Gingrich made "family values" part of his platform when he knows not one thing about them! None cry foul so loud, it seems, as those who are themselves guilty.
Well said and accurate, mldc40.
I just read the definition of Marxism. It made my head explode. I don't think there are very many Marxists in America, and even fewer holding political office.
I don't even know what a Marxist would want to do. I think a Marxist would want to write essays on how wonderful Marxism is.
I'm very sure that Obama is not a dictator. In the US system of govt, there are no dictators. You can look that one up in a history book. Dictators cannot be voted out of office, and Obama may be voted out of office soon. I did not vote for him in 2008 and I think I will vote for Romney this year.
But this Darrell Issa thing is pure politics. Right out of the GOP play book. I can't say, though, that Team Obama is handling it very well.
Hugh Akton thinks you win or lose by the number of "ups" you get here.
Just another small example of the incredible stupidity of Republicans.
@HUGH, you just dreaming. When it gets down to puttin that X on the ballet, it is a known fact that people think a second time. They usually do the right thing. You like Romney are counting your votes before they are cast.
Mldc40 (post 2.5)
Ken Starr is the one who hounded President Clinton for having a fling
Yes, that’s right. It was a “fling” for Clinton? Hmmm, WAIT, I’m thinking that’s not quite accurate. I seem to recall it was committing perjury to a Federal Judge. OH YES, that was it. Perjury! Convicted! Law License surrendered! Hmmmm, do they do that for "flings?"
Thomas Blue (post 2.6), see comments above. If you think mldc40 was accurate, there’s little hope in convincing you with facts.
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@not a russian,
Actually Marxism was an early attempt at economic analysis and, while it was valuable at the time, was shown to be flawed as computers and statistical data-gathering became available. If you look at the economic side of Marxism, it rings a lot truer today than you might thing: "Capitalism according to Marxist theory can no longer sustain the living standards of the population due to its need to compensate for falling rates of profit by driving down wages, cutting social benefits and pursuing military aggression." According to Marx, the Koch brothers and their Tea Party are decidedly Marxist.
People should, as you did, at least read up on the basics before they spout off. Nothing highlights a fool more than his ignorance.
Actually, John, Clinton wasn't convicted of perjury, he was found in contempt of civil court.
But that notwithstanding, the definition of "sex" for purposes of the civil case was rather convoluted in order to avoid defining sex as intercourse which would allow Clinton off the hook.
In any case, the Lewinsky matter should never have been part of the Paula Jones lawsuit since Lewinsky never claimed any sexual harassment.
Paula Jones lawsuit was eventually thrown out because she couldn't show she had suffered any damages.
So to sum up, Clinton made a statement under oath about not having sex with Lewinsky over a special definition of "sex" in a civil case that was eventually thrown out. So, yes he essentially was punished for having a fling that didn't involve intercourse.
@John,
You are full of it. Clinton committed NO crime. Perjury requires that there be a crime involved. Just fibbing is not a crime, even under oath. There was NO perjury charge. There was no conviction. Clinton's law license was already "inactive" when iot was suspended for five years by a 100% Republican Arkansas bar which had opposed him since he was first in Arkansas politics. Suspending an inactive law license is meaningless since Clinton had not practiced law in decades and had no interest in doing so in the future. He could have had automatic reinstatement after five years by simply asking for it.
The whole Clinton thing was nothing more than a failed political witch hunt that has been going on back and forth ever since. The protagonists (Starr and Gingrich) were both involved in felony sexual escapades while prosecuting Clinton for "mis-representing" legal consensual sex. The whole "mis-representation" consisted of the answer to a single prosecutor's question: "is there a sexual relationship between you and this woman?" Clinton answered, "It depends on whether "is" means currently or if it means if there has ever been." And he never answered the question. (The correct non-lawyer answer would have been "No" since Lewinsky had not been an intern in a couple of years by this time.
When he was impeached (but not convicted) the charge was "misprison of felony." This is a crime that no one has been accused of in this country since the early 1800's and is not even written down. It exists solely in English Common Law. "Misprision of felony is the concealment of a felony committed by another person, but without such previous concert with, or subsequent assistance of the offender, as would make the concealer an accessory before or after the fact. The offence is a misdemeanour punishable on indictment by fine and imprisonment." The artlcles of impeachment failed because there was never any evidence of a felony in the first place.
Your "facts" are just a twisted revisionist version of what really happened. They makes you a liar.
This isn't silly politics if you're one of Bryan Terry's family members or for that matter Brian Terry. Not so funny now is it?
Chris..."FIBBING"??? By Clinton?? ROFLMAO......You are a riot!!! I luv it. And I guess the Dress with cum stains was daiquiri drippings??? LOLOLOLOLOL
Now maybe we'll see what kind of grades the "Constitutional Scholar" got at Harvard when he tries to justify his claim of Executive Privilege.
Shouldn't Shrub be subpoenaed?
This was his policy, after all.
Mick, same can be said for the Tillman family...I dont recall any GOP members pining for the truth back then...but now when it suits them they care?! PUHLEASE! While i feel for the agents family, and I think we should have answers and a solution so that it doesnt happen again, this has turned into pure politics plain and simple. Case in point, I dont recall any GOP members challenging Bush when he used it 6 TIMES! Do as we say, not as we do...is that the new GOP motto???? Thats what they are telling us right now basically.
There are at least 40,000,000 african american men and women in America who would have been a better first black president than Obama.
This is a setback.
It wasn't a policy it was a program. President Bush's program was called Wide Receiver that ran from 2005 to 2007 in cooperation with the Mexican government. ATF notified the Mexican government when guns were being smuggled across the border and over 1400 arrests were made. When it was found that the RF ID tracking devices were found by the drug cartels in Mexico it was ended. Fast and Furious was a program run under the Obama administration without the knowledge of the Mexican government with no real tracking of thousands of guns sold to the drug cartels in Mexico. From reviewing the Fast and Furious details it is not very clear on what the point of the program was leaving it open to speculation that it was an attempt by the Obama administration to attack the 2nd amendment. Unfortunately two US law enforcement agents were killed along with countless Mexican civilians. Not real difficult to find information on both programs. So, to say that it started under the Bush administration is an outright lie.
Issa is a fricken wack job...If Obama wanted to pursue gun control, he would have a long time ago, without the need for some BS dog and pony show.
Gun control is the last thing on Obamas mind right now.
Hugh Akston - Please cite verifiable examples of how President Barack Obama is a Marxist. If you can't or won't please STFU.
For all of you folks that do not believe the White House and Attorney General were involved in Fast & Furious from the beginning, I give you the proof that they were. March 24, 2009... Since you cannot post links on this site, you will have to type the www and then paste the following into your browser, or you can do a search for U.S.-Mexico Border Security Policy March 24, 2009 and watch the C-Span video of the press conference. THIS IS AMAZING TO SEE!
.c-spanvideo.org/program/284798-4
Please pay close attention to the audio. It will tell you who knew what over three years ago.
1) Where did you get the get an arrest figure of 1400 persons? i have researched the web and can't verify your account.
2) Darryl Issa has admitted to Mike Wallace on fox News there is no link to the Whitehouse.
"Fast and Furious" was instituted by the same Phoenix, Arizona office of the Customs and Borders Protection as ran "Operation Wide Receiver" .
The attack on the second amendment talk is straight wingnut nutcase conspiracy.
The post ends with these inaccuracies
dispelling lie #1
As regrettable as this was one agent was killed, not two. There are no reports of countless Mexican deaths as you have alleged.
Two guns traced back to "Fast and Furious" were found. Both guns have been forensically tested. Neither has been shown to have been used to kill the agent.
The case marks, casing wear, striation, firing pin position tests have not implicated either weapon in the death of the agent.
1) Lie Two
You haven't established any reason to not link the two programs. You have posted disparate hard right wing gun conspiracies and untrue diatribes about "Fast and Furious".
Issa is a partisan fanatic who right after the 2010 elections and his subsequent rise to Chairman, Issa appeared on Limbaugh, FOX, and other news agencies vowing to go after the Obama Administration and keeping them so busy in Congressional hearings that they wouldn't be able to do anything. Do a bit of research and you will find multiple accounts of his bragging about how he would pursue the Obama Administration. Here is just one example from the conservative CSM. www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/2010/1109/Obama-team-braces-for-Rep.-Darrell-Issa-avid-investigator
Issa is an idiot. He cares nothing about the American people. I have watched him in many hearings always coming to the defense of big corporate America and never really defending average citizens. This is all about making a stink and sidetracking the Obama Administration.
The irony is that this could easily backfire on the GOP. The earlier Bush investigation was shut down as being "unproductive." The truth be known is that most likely it was stopped because of pressure from the NRA.
Here's the thing. There are a couple flaws in the gun control laws. Someone can in theory "legally" purchase these weapons and then resell them to the drug dealers. And the so called "gun show loophole" means that private sales can be made "legally" with no background check or even any real check of identity. "Private sales" are only governed by a very loose "do the right thing" type regulation. A legal US citizen can make "legal" purchases of weapons from a dealer and then later sell them privately with no real oversight or regulations for checking purchaser or keeping records. Technically it is illegal to do this as a "business", but how do you prove that someone bought 12 AR-15 for their own use but later decided they didn't need them anymore and chose to sell them privately.
I am an avid "gun person" and I can tell you first hand about how the gun show loophole works. I attend quite a few gun shows. You can go to a registered dealer there and pick just about any weapon, new in the box and negotiate a price. Then walk around a bit and find the same weapon "used" at a private dealer. The private dealer will be charging 20% or more higher than for the new in the box gun from the registered dealer. Maybe as much as double depending on what it is. And the private dealer will have no problem selling his guns. Why you might ask? Simple, the private sale requires no background check and virtually is no questions asked. This has a couple of appeals to it. Someone, perfect legal, doesn't want any record that they own loads of guns. The second is that someone who could not pass a background check can buy the weapon in a private sale, but would be stopped if they tried to buy through a registered dealer. (On a personal note, I don't like this for the simple reason that you used to be able to find some really good deals on used, but great condition guns at the private sale tables. That is a thing of the past unless it is something like an antique that has no appeal to illegal buyers. The loophole is a racket and has driven up the prices of guns.)
What these "flaws" mean is that in border areas a couple things happen. People "legally" buy guns, but their real purpose is to resell them privately at a nice profit. Now technically, that practice is illegal, but it isn't so easy to trace. The second thing is that through the "gun show loophole", even non citizens and or felons can easily make a "private" purchase. Again, this is technically illegal, however it isn't really regulated or monitored. There have been a couple documentaries on this.
Now if you use a little common sense, you can easily see that an official investigation by the ATF into how these guns get to the drug gangs, will find that this lack of adequate regulation is the primary cause. Yes, those making these purchases are violating the technical legal requirements, however it is quite simply not stoppable with the current laws. So again if you apply some common sense, you can see why the NRA wouldn't be too happy about these investigations because it would very likely point out a need for more regulation. I believe it was this that shut down the program started under Bush.
So now comes a Democratic Administration and someone in Phoenix ATF suggests resurrecting the program, fully understanding and maybe even pointing out where it will likely lead. Now Holder may not fully understand all the details, but he knows clearly it already existed and was shut down, (probably by political pressure), so he agrees and tells them to go ahead but tells them to fix some of the problem issues they had with it previously. The ATF does their job and it is entirely possible Holder doesn't even know the code name for it or all the fine details. After all, he's the AG with literally thousands of things on his plate so he delegates down to the appropriate career professionals in ATF. And it isn't at all inconceivable that some inter office memos on a high level with little detail get exchanged between Holder's staff and the White House staff. The Mexican government had been making a big public stink about US origin guns and responsible gun regulation is no doubt a Democratic thing.
My guess is that there is still a lot in the works associated with this program even though the actually "gun running" portion has been stopped. Ungoing investigations and prosecutions are very likely alive and well. For all we know, maybe hundreds of "strawpurchasers" are being tracked down. To release documents regarding this is simply not appropriate nor is it even legal for the AG to do so. Additionally, background communication related to the topic is also a potential leak of important information. If some of this became public, it could possibly result in suspects escaping. And I have no doubt that some of this communication could have some politically damaging components to it, so that makes it even less likely to be turned over. However, if it has any bearing on an ongoing investigation, Holder and the Administration have ever legal right, and legal responsibility, to withhold it.
As I understand it, guns that were "legally" sold had tracking devices planted in them. The purpose being to identify the "legal" sales were actually illegal because of their intended purpose. The general purpose was to identify the real game being played and identify the players. More than likely, it identified a lot of players both big and small, most of whom were likely taking advantage of a loophole. I sincerely doubt that any registered gun dealers were buying thousands of guns from manufacturers and the illegally directly selling them to Mexican drug lords. Too easy to catch and too easy to prove. The best way for the drug lords to get their weapons is to take advantage of the loopholes and use a bunch of people in the middle.
Now I doubt that Issa really cares about nothing here except giving Obama and his Administration grief. However, as more of this surfaces, he is very likely to piss off the NRA because what actually happens will become obvious. But then the NRA has to balance the strong desire to gain a Republican Administration with the possible backlash of a public outcry. With their boys in power, they can get what they want. I sincerely believe they had a strong influence in shutting down the Bush program. Maybe that is where the investigation should be looking. I'm a strong supporter of gun rights, but also believe some level of responsible regulation is necessary to protect those rights. Otherwise it just makes for reasons to support extreme measures being taken.
Where was Issa and his buddies when Bush was busy with executive orders.
We need to grill Issa about his dealings. He's nothing but a thug and a crook.
The REAL investigation should actually be that of Issa and the other Conservative liars who are creating a Constitutional crisis out of thin air, all over lies they themselves told previously;
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/
Funny, I don't recall Issa stomping his feet and throwing tantrums when Bush invoked this several times during his administration. Nah, this isn't politically motivated at all...
Left Wing Nut Job
The most similar situation that Bush was investigated for was appointments to the Attorney General's office which directly involved the White House decision making process. Whether you like it or not, this situation is where White House privilege was invoked as per the law.
Obama is stretching the intent of the law since his executive privilege had nothing to do with the White House.
Maybe he should have declared executive privilege when his buddies in Illinois were indicted, but he'll probably wait until his last day as President and give them pardons...
Wrong, armurray - I suggest you do a little research. Bush used this tactic several times, for far more than what you cite. All you have to do is try using Google - it isn't hard to do. For some of the better examples, use "Cheney" or "Rove" in the search.
Last Wednesday Holder said he'd be happy to provide a briefing and provide all the documents, as long as Issa stopped his investigation. Issa refused, saying provide the documents first, then we'll discuss the outcome of the investigation.
12 hours later, the President suddenly decides these are privileged communications. After over 10 months of investigation, and repeated requests, subpoenas and now Contempt of Congress charges, the Democrats conveniently decide these documents are privileged.
Sure looks fishy to me...
NOBAMA 2012!
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What looks fishy to me is that Issa seems more intent on trying to establish Ken Starr-like authority( which he doesn't have) than he is at finding the truth. Why is that,I wonder? And it seems even odder coming from a man guilty of treason. Of course, I also wonder why so many Americans would support a party guilty of treason.
Left Wing Nut Job, post 3.2:
You are correct. He used it six times throughout his presidency. Less than half that Clinton used it (14).
Thomas Blue (post 3.5)
Rep. Issa is “guilty of treason”??!?!?!!?? GOSH, I don’t recall reading that in any newspapers.
That certainly changes things doesn’t it? I wonder if the House Sergeant at Arms knows there’s a member of Congress that’s been convicted of treason. Please do the right thing Thomas and call the House of Representatives and notify them of this matter!
NOBAMA 2012!
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Pretty silly post,John. Is that all you got? Issa hasn't indicted himself yet so he's not guilty? Really? That's your defense?
Thomas Blue.....Actually, YOUR post was not only silly but laughable.....Treason by a political Party and a Congressman, all in one piece of P.U.L.P. ???? If Lying, deceit and outright incompetence were treasonous crimes your POS POTUS would already be in jail. Issa is simply doing what he is supposed to be doing as a Representative of the People of californai and the U.S........With-Holder is the LIAR here, and Obama is aiding and abetting a LIAR.....plain and simple. IF THE F&F SCANDAL DOES NOT REACH TO THE WH OBAMA HAS NO Constitutional power to invoke Executive Privilege..period. I know, Bush this, Bush that, yadayadayada...F&F occurred on Obamas' Watch under his RACIST AG.....Deal with that.
Okay, BurgerKing...let's turn down the vitriol and testosterone 2 or 3 notches. First of all, if you're an American, my president is also your president. If Issa were so concerned about representing the will of the people, why is it that even though the people of his state chose Barack Obama as their president, he was conspiring against him as he took office- long before Obama had made any mistakes. After this little clandestine meeting in which they subordinated the interests of our nation in order to acheive their own ends, any subsequent actions they take or statements they make are suspect. They have all already lost their objectivity and credibility.
You seem to be suffering under the delusion that I'm gung-ho about our president:far from it. But he is our president and while I may not be committed to him, I am committed to our system of government. That seems to be the key point that the reich keeps missing. Issa and co. have total contempt for the whole process and for the voting public. They will do anything necessary to take down Obama, including commit crimes. Maybe Obama needs to go. I am in pain over having to choose between Obama and a spoiled rich boy who can't open his mouth without lying and who barely veils contempt for everyone else and a sense of self-entitlement. I'm not a Holder fan either. But the real issue is whether the American system stays in place or not. They are willing to tear down the whole system if necessary. In fact, that is really what the tea party is about. After Norquist and the Kochheads finish their agenda, we can change our name from USA to CSA. All they really want is to maintain just enough structure to be able to place both thumbs on everyone's windpipes, including yours. Right now what we have is two gangs rumbling in the streets of DC and elsewhere. I say fire them all but start with the GOP because as bad as the dems and Obama have been, at least they haven't shown the willingness to try and undo elections. Without elections and a real federal government, we're not too different from Egypt. This isn't about Obama. It's about a group of thugs trying to tear down the American system. The GOP/teabaggers.
Hugh Fiest is married to herself along wiht Bold type Bev and so on.
@ Tommy, I like your style of trying to appear Above the fray by boring everyone to tears with long posts.
But you are wrong in claiming that the Dems to not steal elections. All one has to do is look at the shenanigans surrounding the " Stewart Smally " election where ballots kept showing up after being recounted to the point that some districts had more votes cast that there were residents. Stuffing the ballot boxes goes way back with dems and unions. All one has to do is look at how Ole Joe bought the election for JFK using the Chicago Machine.
Fast forward to today and the dems do not want fair elections as is shown by their resistance of verifying that registered voters are actually citizens and live in the district.
No laws were broken...Obama's own words destroy his right to exert privilege...he didn't know anything, was never informed, and was not involved in the planning. The after the fact actions of the DOJ between the DOJ offices and subordinate organizations are simply not covered by the privilege. Lying to Congress was the same charges that got Clinton impeached...Holder has lied on at least 3 separate occassions. I guess the real question is why don't the democrats want to get to the bottom of this program and find out who authorized the guns to walk and who is ultimately responsible for the death of Agent Brian Terry?
Sorry, folks, Obama is NOT my president. I didn't vote for him, but I did vote, so I can complain all I want about his ineptness in office.
Romney/? 2012
Id like to add to Thomas's comment, and that is to remind you people supporting Issa that the GOP absolutely failed the Tillman family when it was they who wanted answers...but it was under their President. When Bush also used it in the CIA agent leak, the US Attorneys fiasco (what else do you call removing qualified people from their post because they refuse to go on political witch hunts??), and never coming fully clean with the people regarding Pat's death and the circumstances in which he died? Sure, they admitted it was fratricide, however I (and any other logical person would agree) dont buy that the Ranger who shot him couldnt make him out but managed to triple tap him center mass in the head...that dog dont hunt. Most of the report thats been released is redacted, and in front the same type of Congressional committee, Generals and Bush admin officials sat there and played dumb. What else do you call Generals who claim they didnt know what was going on in their units? Incompetent? I dont think they would have gotten where they were had they been, so that leaves a cover up....again, I feel for the agents family and friends, but Tillman's deserve the truth just the same...and I dont see the GOP making a stink to get those answers.
I think Holder tried to make a deal with Issa that involved Issa reading the docs he wanted, but the docs could not leave Holders office. And in exchange, Issa would drop the contempt charge. Issa made the decision that he had to turn down the deal in order to make Holder look bad. So Obama used EP to protect his AG from the witchhunt that Issa is conducting as an election year charade.
That's my guess and I'm sticking to it.
Issa is a criminal and a republican fool. Keeps on, and He likely will find more than the republicans really want the people to know.
@ blearyeyed... the contempt charge is a red herring. Even IF they get a contempt vote, the Senate would have to concur. That won't happen. Then it will have to wind its way through the courts. The SCOTUS really hates to get involved in these matters. And at the end of this session of COngress, the charge would be dismissed because the complainant would no longer exist. All of this won't happen before Congress adjourns, so tell me- what is the point of this if it's not politics? I won't defend Holder or Obama although, in fact, there is a defense to be made. But this is a fight that is already lost for the GOP. They cannot get this issue to the SCOTUS in the next 6 months or less.
I think he should get a medal if he's charged with contempt of Congress, aren't we all in contempt of congress?
Great call,Grandpa. I agree.
@voice-of-truth...thanks for the ever-so-sweet left-handed compliment. I don't think you can find anywhere that I have catagorically defended the Democratic Party. Have they had their failings and crooks? Absolutely. But they pale in comparison to what the 'pugs have done. Also, I'll point out the obvious:once the vote is cast and counted, someone can always come back and challenge that vote total or the legitimacy of certain voters. But if the vote has been prevented from occurring at all, it is then impossible to correct, isn't it. As far as I know, only one prosecution has occurred for voter fraud since 2000 and that was for voter fraud perpetrated by GOP crooks in Ohio when the GOP stole the 2004 election with massive fraud. I'm all for stopping voter fraud. But I'm not for stopping people from voting- sounds too much like Saddam's Iraq to me. For what it's worth, I've never cared much for Al Gore but when he tried to stop the votes from service members overseas from being counted in 2000, that's when I went from dislike to total contempt and loathing. Voting should be sacrosanct in any government that calls itself democratic.
Executive Privilege doesn't just apply to the White House.... it applies to the to entire Executive Branch. Same thing that prevents the White House from subpoenaing emails of Congress - if they could, you would see that Congress doesn't give a rat's ass about the agent that was killed, only about how they can get back in power - period.
http://www.bing.com/Dictionary/search?q=define+executive+privilege&qpvt=what+is+executive+privilege&FORM=DTPDIA
And I have nothing but contempt for Congress
left wingnut job.. maybe Issa didn't stomp his feet but I bet your did.... Are you stomping your feet now? Wrong is wrong no matter who does it.
My, what a great deal of hand wringing and outrage. Of course, it's all over a complete fabrication on the part of Conservatives;
http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/
The problem wasn't malfeasance on the part of the ATF, it was pathetically weak laws as advocated by fine folks like the NRA.
If the President and Holder neither knew about or authorized the operation, then one has to wonder why the "Executive Priviledge" was thrown on the table. Certainly something went wrong and you would think that the President and the Attorney General would want to get to the bottom of this.
It reminds me of when Richard Nixon was trying to use "Executive Priviledge" during Watergate and everyone from John Mitchell down were stating that they had no knowledge of the events except what they read in the news. Seems as though we are going down that path again. Goes to show that no one pays attention to history anymore.
Could be that releasing those papers could compromise on-going investigations and the president is protecting them under national security...you know, like DIDN'T happen with Cheney and his fall guy Scooter Libby?
Agreed. But since the Nixon adminstration, Congress has abandoned much of its legislative powers by giving the POTUS too much executive powers.
I believe that Issa is posturing for the Republicans in an effort to make Republicans look strong in November.
Keith, the problem with submitting to an inquisition from someone like Issa or Starr is that at some point, the power of the executive branch will become subordinate to Congress' power. Congress and the executive branch are supposed to be on equal footing. And as was previously stated, why wasn't he upset over all of bushco's provable lies? Both Starr and Issa are/were after political points, not the real prosecution of real crimes. In fact, Issa committed treason so let's see him investigate himself. I think treason is probably worse than stupidity.
Angelcrusher, if that were true, then wouldn't you expect that the Executive Priviledge would have been exercised when the first questions were asked...and not now. Also, if they didn't authorize it or have knowledge of it, you would believe they would want Congress to get to the answers to see who was at fault for the failure.
This isn't a question of 'political points', but rather an inquiry into who authorized the operation and what went wrong. The old adage applies here: "If you have nothing to hide, then hide nothing. If you have something to hide, then hide everything you can." It just seems like the White House and the Attorney General are trying to hide as much as they can. They may not be, but appearances speak volumes and they currently are giving that appearance.
The problem when people scream "cover up" is how difficult it is to prove a negative. From what we've heard, there are over 80,000 documents in the hands of the inspector general regarding this admittedly failed operation. So...incompetence? Stupidity? Poor planning? Could be all three...or none. But Issa's grandstanding is on some vague "what if" about gun control issues that is impossible to disprove--and he knows it. It makes for good political theater, but doesn't do anything to make our country better, and it sure doesn't focus us on jobs, jobs, jobs...
KEITH: I have to agree with you......
The PAST:
I remember back when I was in school... We a moment of salience for Prayer, and the We all stood with Hands over our Hearts and said the Pledge of Allgence .
I can remember in the past, I use to be able to walk down my street any time of night or day and my biggest worry was a neighbor hood dog, not getting shot or mugged.
The strongest drug around was asprain.
If a neighbor mom was watching you, she could cuff you side the head or slap you A$$ if ya misbehaved and then when your mother picked you up, chances are you would get it again from her. No Cops were called and Social Welfare did not get involved.
Doors were left Unlocked, people passing on the street said Hi and gave a smile. Ya called a Turd a Turd... There was no “Politically Correct”.
Well I’ll be a SOB, All my ranting and raving didn’t change one single thing!!!
Oh well I thot I would give it a try, I mean after all, most of what I read here is what Happened in the Past... Bush did this or Bush did that,
DAMN IT PEOPLE What does that have to do with what the current CIC is doing?
“It’s like Billy the school Bully... everyday he would walk by and punch you in the arm... after awhile even your friends where punching you in the arm and when you say something they say... HEY BILLY DID IT, why can’t I”
Let’s Work on the PRESENT so we have a brighter FUTURE... Don’t forget the PAST, Just Don’t Live in It.
Keith, Obama has repeatedly made the mistake of underestimating the venomous nature of the GOP towards him. I allow for the possibility that Obama may have thought that they only wanted info and that was okay with that but as soon as he became convinced that this was another Kenneth Starr fishing expedition, it was time to resist. And I think he's right. While the last 3 1/2 yrs may have called Obama's leadership into question, it has proven clearly and undeniably that the GOP doesn't give a damn about ANYTHING except beating down that black man and will stop at absolutely nothing to accomplish it. The last 4 decades have proven that the rule of law means nothing to repugnicans, from Nixon down to Issa.
Thomas Blue......Obama can avoid the "fishing expedition" very easily, by retracting the illegal and unconstitutional Executive Privilege he invoked, and allowing the LEGAL Congressional demand for Documents on F&F to go forward without a Congressional Contempt of Congress Vote on WITH-Holder. If Holder is lying, and by all indications, HE IS, then it is the POTUS' responsibility to REMOVE HIM FROM OFFICE!! Neither he NOR the POTUS is above the law. And get off your RACE card P.U.L.P. Hell, even Blacks will be voting against Obama come November, thus ousting HOLDER. Are those voters repugnicans and racists also??? I think not...Liberturd distorter...as if Dimocraps never LIE....."I did not have SEX with that Woman"......RING A BELL ding-dong??????
This isn't silly politics if you're one of Bryan Terry's family members or for that matter Brian Terry. Not so funny now is it?
See I thought you righties loved it when someone told Washington DC to shove it!
wrong again,BK. Submitting to Issa will worsen things and increase the GOPs determination to fish until they find something no matter how unrelated to use on the president, regardless of legitimacy, just as Starr did vs. Clinton. Starr's investigation never found anything but he just kept expanding and expanding until he found something, no matter how unrelated or irrelevant or spurious. They don't want the truth.
anglecrusher, so if the President and the Attorney General are not engaged in National Security and that functionis being conducted by subornidates who are not informating the Executive Branch why shouldn't the American people be told about the failure of our elected and appointed officals from doing the jobs they were sent to do? If they lied about not knowing, and lied to Congress about what they knew and when they knew it, they have committed a crime. There are ways to address National Security issues without lying to a co-equal branch of government.
I assume you are comparing a Crime, Breaking and entering with a Gun Sting that was not successful. Very long reach.
Why is Congress interested in a Sting that was not 100 % effective. I thought Congress was suposed to be passing legislation to Govern the Country. I guess they don't want to do that job baed upon the last three years of actions.
Charge& Sent G.W.Bush & Dick Chenney for War Crimes & Treason to Intermnational Court the Haque .
To me ,President Obama execise Executive Privilege that he invoked,in protecting America interest from World Embarrassments,when Both criminal Names pop again on this Mexico scandal.
Nothing NEW in GOP principle, when we talks about Exporting Guns,Oil Cartel or Wars
Only this time it was Obama.
You're right. It's a pathetic insult to his memory that Republicans are using his death to play politics in a matter THEY ALREADY KNOW didn't go down as they represent it;
features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2012/06/27/fast-and-furious-truth/
Issa points to case law that maintains executive privilege is reserved for direct presidential decision-making. Chairman Darrell Issa you rock
Yeah, especially when he cries when he doesn't get to be governor of California...yeah, he's a real rock star. He should know about law, though, since he has so much personal experience before the bench...and not as an attorney.
The name says it all!
Good response - I would expect no less.
Akston, you keep posting and posting your drivel but still haven't told us what a Marxist is. Why's that?
Thats because the answers easy for those with room temperature I.Q..A marxist is a liberal in disguise. Happy now liberals?
Hugh Akston and Lurch, what a combo.
I'll keep repeating this because repubs like when one of their own do it, so I'll honor their tradition and do it too.
I think Holder tried to make a deal with Issa that involved Issa reading the docs he wanted, but the docs could not leave Holders office. And in exchange, Issa would drop the contempt charge. Issa made the decision that he had to turn down the deal in order to make Holder look bad. So Obama used EP to protect his AG from the witchhunt that Issa is conducting as an election year charade.
silly names and toss around Marxist and dictator
OBAMA is a silly Marxist and dictator dont you just love it
Define Marxist.
Define dictator.
I suppose he is a fascist and a Nazi, too, all while being a socialist Marxist Kenyan Martian.
HE is a Socialist here is a link
http://www.impeachobamacampaign.com/video-the-date-obama-joined-the-socialist-new-party/
Wilson, don't forget the following, Obama was born in Kenya, Obama is a muslim, Obama is gay, Obama is not a man but a woman dressed as a man, Obama is not really black but a white man pretending to be black, the three pointer basketball shot video was photoshopped, Obama is an official member of the Cosa Nostra, Obama is a Chinese secret agent who will sell America to China for pennies on the dollar, Obama also works for the Russians, Obama bows to Bin Laden, Obama is secretly plotting to eliminate the 2nd Amendment, Obama gives money to his Wall Street buddies, Obama is the Antichrist, Obama signals the Rapture is coming, Obama will end the world in 30 days, Obama hates the Jews, and, last but not least, Obama plans to kill grandma.
You would be more credible if you gave the complete picture of what you think Obama is.
Fish,I think marxist/socialist covers Obama for the most part.You could be right about the other stuff though.
No I dont love the maxist\socialist Obama.
Fish, Obama is Bush too!
So...Issa admits on Fox news...there is no evidence of lying...or coverup By anyone yet..." Yet all the rt wingers on the blog say there is.....?
Let's see what is known....
So repubs don't know, what they don't know. And..they admit they don't know , what they don't know, that they don't know. How can they don't know, what they don't know about what they don't know? We do know that they don't know, what they don't know. But they don't care that we all know, that they don't know, that they don't know. If repubs did know, what they don't know, about what they don't know, we would know what they don't know about what they don't know about.
Burma Shave
And the right-wing not-job struggle for relevance goes on and on and on and on......
And the struggle for reality and common sense in the leftist circle jerk goes on,and on,and on.
Issa said the tragic death of the agent was part of a larger Obama conspiracy to restict gun ownership (although he did admit he has absolutely no evidence to that theory)?
Does it get any goofier than that? I hope not.
It plays well to the tin foil hat crowd and the NRA...
Mark Thomas & Angelcrusher: You guys seriously need to crack a History book fast.
What do you mean Old? What's Issa's conspiracy theory got to do with a history book?
There's a history book that talks about Obama restricting gun ownership? Written by same said NRA/tin foil hat brigade, no doubt...
Guess we stumped him Angel.
Well, yeah...actually it does get goofier...
Since the program was started by the Bush administration, the idea that the program's real intent of trying to destroy the second amendment and gun ownership, means Bush and Cheney, et al, were the real conspirators.
Holder's the one who shut it down, not the one protecting the program.
Old Yankee sounds senile...
If goofy is what your after,look no further than the White House and this web site and its lefty posters.
And a poster who calls themself "Fish Enchilada" is supposed to be taken seriously?? Judging from your uninformed idiotic posts...NOT!!!!
Yea like BK3328579 is such a trustworthy name. You are just another right wing moron BK.
Issa, issa, issa a joke. Oh, and "this is not political", goes right along with "the check is in the mail", and "don't play cards with a guy named "Doc"! Just remember what Mark Twain said, "Of course truth is stranger than fiction, fiction has to make sense".
Not necessarily Barlow.Obama's biography is pure fiction and makes no sense at all.Alot like his administration and his supporters.
Rapco I get so damned sick of you trolls spewing out your crap. I'm a progressive and a liberal and this is my network. This is my network's site. Take your un-american BS lies and go f yourself. The slogan here is Lean Forward. I think you need to lean forward so as to better pull your head out of your A.
If the prez and Holder did not know about or even authorize the Fast & Furious debacle is that not incompetence at the ultimate level?
We all know that this claim is utter Bovine Feces.
Fast and Furious was a program set up by Bush.
Of course they knew of an ongoing program.
Kind of a silly comment, isn't it?
I love how there's no middle ground...Obama is either completely incompetent or he's the ultimate puppet master pulling all the strings! LOL!
So, we're guessing he took a look at two wars, the worst recession in 80 years, healthcare and Osama bin Laden and said "Forget all that! I want to know what we're doing in Arizona about guns!"
@olde yankee - @Mark and @Angelcrusher have it exactly right.
I have always been respectful of the President. Using stupid nicknames just shows your un-American level of contempt for our system of government - not the President.
And if you would just clean up your language, it would be easier to read your posts and try to understand your point of few. Other wise, you are just ... I don't know ... what DO you think you are doing?
[I know - I know - stupid to even ask!]
@Mark Thomas - F&F is an Obama program. There was a previous program that was Bush. While similar, there are differences.
mark, you should quit getting ALL your news from sargent "slut" shultz and rick maddcow! Holder even took back his LIEING statement about Bush knowing about obama's fast and furious and any Bush program stopped 2 years before your phrophet was crowned! At least Bush had the smarts (unlike obama) to put tracking devices in the guns and when they were tampered with, the program shut down!What do you say to those 2 American agents killed with the at least 200 Mexicans citizens murdered with the obama/holder guns! Obama/holder lies and people STILL DIE! Romney and ANYBODY in 2012!
@Mark Thomas, maphi is right. Wide Receiver was under Bush, F&F was started in 2009. Both however are under the umbrella of the Gunrunner project. Both programs walked guns across the border and lost track of them. With F&F however, the new eTrace program (as of early 2009) allowed recovered weapons in Mexico to be traced back to the US. Under Wide Receiver there was no eTrace program.
maphi, my understanding is that the current program is an extension of the program started by bush. I have no doubt there are differences but the intent is the same, isn't it?
Operation Wide Receiver was the one started under Bush. It ended in 2007 when it produced exactly zero indictments. It was meant to try and get the arms traffickers. Where it changed was in 2009 when it became Operation Fast & Furious. They wanted to get further up the food chain in the Mexican drug cartels. I'd say it was poor planning to recycle a failed operation, but hardly rises to the levels Issa is trying to paint it.
Then why is the White House afraid to release documents Angel?
Rapco..because it reveals just how INCOMPETENT Obozo is...simple. Of course he knew about F&F....he and With_Holder are great at "pillow talk".
The White House is not afraid to release anything. Obama just loves to bait morons that make up stories to see how far they will go and then embarrass the lot after he's done laughing.
This thing is the biggest crock.
After Obama wins the election, fast and furious will fade away into oblivion.
Next!!!
If President Obama wins reelection and the Republicans retain the House and the Democrats lose the Senate or still don't have a filibuster-proof majority, we will have more of the same.
That is why it is critical that we focus attention on House and Senate seats!!
Are you saying selling guns to the Mexican cartels is ok with you? Arming the cartels to massacre the innocent is "hunky-dory"?
@BEGreen3850, no, he never said either of those two things you mention. Is that clear now?
I'm saying is that you are drawing your own conclusions which are being fed by the anger of the republicans.
Republicans are angry that America rejects their platform and are doing nothing but having a childish tantrum, this is no different than one child trying to rat out another child over some petty garbage.
Regarding masacre....i think the republican lead wars against Iraq, Afganastan etc provide far more fodder than this measly gun trading incident.
how many americans died in these conflicts? upwards of 5000 versus one border agent?
Along with America Dog.
Actually, the platforms being rejected are OBAMAs' and the DimoCrap Party...At last count I can't find anything that the American Voter agrees with Obozo on.....except that he seems like a "nice boy".
LOL BK. With every post you just prove you are an idiot. Obama will win by 7 points. Remember I said that.
You know the interesting thing is that basically everyone, even the Obama disciples admit something is wrong here. When the only defense is "Well Bush did it" and Obviously they think that Bush was wrong. they are actually saying Obama is wrong too but it is OK. That is tantamount to the loginc that if the neighbor killed his wife so it is OK for me to do it too.
Bush should have been reigned in, and was in many cases and so should Obama. Anyone who is stupid enough to follow the leaders of this country without question gets the dictatorship that will come as a result.
"Well Bush did it" is not a defense. There is no need for a defense since there is nothing to defend, because the administration has done nothing wrong. This should be obvious to anyone that researches this matter. Even Issa says there is no evidence of wrongdoing by the White House or Holder. Or are you saying that Issa is wrong?
The back and forth vitriol her is emblematic of what is really wrong with American governance/politics. Everyone is more interested in taking shots at the other guys position than actually searching for the truth or solving problems. Nothing will ever get accomplished until we come to the realization that far more binds us together than keeps us apart. The first step is to bury the past. Don't excuse conduct today because the other guy did it yesterday. We have to create higher standards for all of our elected and appointed officials. The second step is to think independently. Just because a guy on the other side of the isle came up with an idea or has a certain position can NOT be the main reason to take the contrary position.
We will be condemned to a never-ending round robin of mediocre, self-serving, corrupt government until we work together to hold them ALL accountable.
To the matter at hand. Is Issa's request politically motivated? Probably, but he is Chairman of a committee that is supposed to investigate the executive branch. He probably wouldn't be so zealous if his own party controlled the White House. On the other hand, the promise of the most transparent White House ever has fallen far short of its lofty goals of accountability, and how the documents requested could be within Executive Privilege i.e. part of the President's deliberative process, is specious at best.
So, there is a lot of fault to go around. I say lets just lay all the cards on the table and move on.
I'll keep repeating this because repubs like when one of their own do it, so I'll honor their tradition and do it too.
I think Holder tried to make a deal with Issa that involved Issa reading the docs he wanted, but the docs could not leave Holders office. And in exchange, Issa would drop the contempt charge. Issa made the decision that he had to turn down the deal in order to make Holder look bad. So Obama used EP to protect his AG from the witchhunt that Issa is conducting as an election year charade.
Issa is playing politics and should be excluded from any real White House information. He deserves nothing because he's doing nothing but campaigning for Romney. Obama should not only claim executive privilege but send him a letter stating that campaign workers aren't entitled to White House documents.
As I understand it, many of the documents requested by Issa cannot legally be turned over due to their nature. It is very possible that Obama exercised executive privilige to try to stop the witch hunt or to protect the previous President's communications and decision making in the matter. I doubt that the attorney general or President had read the documents in question until now. There would be no need to do so. They became aware of the "program" and stopped it. It should have ended there, not become a political fishing trip. It's sad that our members of Congress have become so unprincipled and greedy for power that they show contempt for those in higher positions. Obama has conducted himself in a respectful and competent manner as President and has done as much as he can do in an environment where the GOP blocks every request and every attempt at compromise. The GOP has sunk so low that they will not even debate and vote on Obama's jobs bill which means that they couldn't care less about working people and unemployed who are struggling as long as they can keep the economy in the condition that will benefit their political debate during the election campaign. They are blaming Obama for the poor economy when in fact they are responsible because they will not work with him to improve it. If Romney wins the election, you will see Congress do an about face and work on a jobs plan to improve the economy so they can claim credit. It's sad and it's unethical and it shows us just how low our elected representatives have sunk.
One of Issa's complaints was that many of the nearly 8,000 documents he did get were heavily redacted. Why? Likely to protect agents in on-going operations. Let's face it, the republicans have a poor track record in keeping secrets...
They also have a track record of outing agents...aka treason...remember Valerie Plame? We do!!!
Angelcrusher. You must be mistaken about secrets. Obama has leaked many in the last month for political gains. I recall Clinton sold secrets to China when he was in the Whit House.
Brian: You are talking out of your backside.
Defeat Socialism; oust Obama this November.
Ha, ha heh, heh! Socialism exists in China and Russia. Go to your textbook and read about it.
The TEA PARTY is closer to true socialism than the Obama white house. You fools don't know the most basic definitions of government. If you were living in a socialist regime you wouldn't be posting here, you'd be in prison for questioning authority.
That's coming if Obama get's in for a second term... All his comments on 'we'll' talk after I'm re-elected with other socialist countries. Ask Arizona. Even with the Supreme Court decision yesterday Obama has responded that he will NOT allow Homeland Security to deport illegals..... Where are those stories in the news!! Do YOUR research fools!!!
Many of these liberals know the truth they just don't care Stillwating.Most are probably on the Obama gravy train, or wanting and waiting to be. All liberal politicians have to offer is someone elses wealth,and today's lazy America wants a slice of the "rich" pie offered by the lefty dem party.
The White House can ALWAYS claim executive privilege. On any matter, any time.
hmmmm...no.
I really wish some of you (on both sides of the argument) would use your favorite search engine and try a little education before spewing your digital diarrhea.
So, which is it? Was the President involved in either the decisionmaking or deliberations on F&F and therefore privilege is appropriate, or...is he trying to throw his perceived weight around as an attempt to stall the congressional proceedings?
I can hear the whining now..."But...but...but...BUSH did it!". Yep, and it doesn't make it right, does it?
Hey, guess what? Clinton (gasp!!!) did it, too...and estimated 14 times, although there is some controversy as Clinton suspended the practice of written assertion of privilege.
In fact, every President from Kennedy through Bush has asserted privilege in at least one matter. But only on those matters in which they were personally involved in the decisionmaking or deliberations.
This isn't silly politics if you're one of Bryan Terry's family members or for that matter Brian Terry. Not so funny now is it?
I'll keep repeating this because repubs like when one of their own do it, so I'll honor their tradition and do it too.
I think Holder tried to make a deal with Issa that involved Issa reading the docs he wanted, but the docs could not leave Holders office. And in exchange, Issa would drop the contempt charge. Issa made the decision that he had to turn down the deal in order to make Holder look bad. So Obama used EP to protect his AG from the witchhunt that Issa is conducting as an election year charade.
Bleary, then what you are saying is that Mr Obama & Mr Holder are involved in Fast & Furious, as that is the only legal way that Executive Privilege can be used.
Wonder what Mr. magic underwear has to say about this?
Gordon Gecko Romney is silent. He has screwed himself into a corner.
Someone throw Issa a life jacket. He is over his head, and instead of heading for the shore, he keeps wandering in deeper.
Lets hope he drowns!
Hey Huey look up Marxist and get back to us. That old stupid remark is really boring... Your accusations are baseless and ridiculous.
Issa continues to show himself to be a man of no character or integrity.
I thought by now the republicans would actually have a jobs plan to run on but it looks like they don't and all of them are just going to that old tired he's a Socialist Marxist line. If that is all you have to run on I feel very confident that Obama will be reelcted. I am an independent, GOP I challenge you to win me over with policy, not rhetoric
Romney.. Have you ever read the Communist manifesto? Obviously not. Just spewing emotion instead of facts. (Marx wrote the Communist manifesto just as an FYI - it is mmostly about economics as a hint.)
Issa GO HOME FREAK!
Dean same message to you... Look up Socialism and get back to us. Again, old and tired lies don't project an intelligent image.
Well played, Mr. Issa! Either Obama knew and has something to hide (executive privilege, aka cover my ess), or he was not involved, in which case executive privilege does not apply. So, Mr. Obama, are you guilty and covering, or not guilty and ignorant? Either way, this really shows the quality of the "Justice" department - taking the fifth amendment and hiding facts!
Issa's claim is that this is one huge conspiracy to restrict gun rights.
He has no evidence to even suggest Obama somehow engineered the death of this poor agent to restict gun rights nor does history suggest his claim is anything but political.
But yet you think it was "well-played"?
Well played, Mr. Issa! Either Obama knew and has something to hide
Well played my ass. Issa has already admitted --- on Fox no less -- that he has NO evidence that President Obama has lied or that the White House tried to cover anything up.
I'll tell you what's going to happen out of this. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. We will hear a lot of self righteous crap about the rule of law from Republicans, a whole lot of grandstanding and the clowns of Fox and right wing yapping radio will be all wound up but --- that's all that's going to happen.
The White House is going to use every legal tactic they can to drag this out, Congress will adjourn by October, any contempt charge issues by congress expires when congress ends in January. So come January after Obama is reelected will have a new congress and Republicans will no longer be trying top do everything they can to defeat this president. They will move on to the 2016 election and go after Hillary.
You Pukes scare me. Too much Fox (Fix Fux) News. When a congressman has a record like Issa's: suspected arson on one of his businesses, gun charges, auto theft, gun harassment, how can you take what this man says seriously? One thing about Fox News watchers; they are so easily brainwashed. GOOGLE CAN BE YOUR FRIEND TOO, DUH.
Lene It's either Bush or Fox News. You commie'inbred socialist need to get a better line of BS. It's getting old. The Democrat Platform is to blame someone else.
When a so called news story is covered non stop on ONE Gestapoesque "News Channel" one might come to the conclusion that this is a very partisan witch hunt and, A REASONABLE THINKING PERSON would check other news sources. But the Right Wingers get all lathered up, their knickers in a knot over something started by Issa who's has an arm long record. He has stolen cars, purportedly committed arson on one of his businesses, has gun harassment charges. Now if I were even represented by a thug like this, I would be really embarrassed. But to believe this thug, to me this rationale is beyond the pale. Is it only Fix News for you boot clicking righties?
Poor Lene - He smells a rat but can't bring himself to admit it. Issa's prior record (never convicted btw) is not the issue here. Somebody in this administration is lying. Holder is likely incompetent and lying and now despite the media's best effort to bury this story has trapped his boss as well. This president has publicly stated he knew nothing about this operation and now has utilized executive privilege to try and bury it. This whole thing stinks and Holder should do Obama a favor and step down quietly while he still can. This has the potential to get real ugly.
I'll keep repeating this because repubs like when one of their own do it, so I'll honor their tradition and do it too.
I think Holder tried to make a deal with Issa that involved Issa reading the docs he wanted, but the docs could not leave Holders office. And in exchange, Issa would drop the contempt charge. Issa made the decision that he had to turn down the deal in order to make Holder look bad. So Obama used EP to protect his AG from the witchhunt that Issa is conducting as an election year charade.
Nope. No leaks in the White House. Obama is offended by the mere suggestion that anyone in his administration leaks information to the Press.
You do realize that this "seven page letter" did not come from either the White House, OR almost undoubtedly the MINORITY party on this committee which of course is the Democratic party, do you not? That was a rhetorical question since it is painfully OBVIOUS that you do not.
This memo could have come from ANY member of the committee, a staffer who drafted the memo, or for all we know a friggin janitor. But the reality is this memo was almost undoubtedly leaked by Issa or specifically leaked on Issa's orders.
Issa is pissing into the wind. His argument (seven pages of it) is purely self-serving and he loves the spotlight. Obama should publicly answer Issa's demand ~ "You get nothing more, now fire your best shot." Boehner will wet himself over the prospect of getting to preside over a full House contempt citation. Meanwhile, other than a short bus full of political lemmings, no one gives a @!$%#. Its not an issue with the public nor will it become one. If the House votes a contempt citation, the matter must go to a federal grand jury which is a level playing field that Issa, the House, and conservatives in general will not be able to manipulate. Go for it. Lets see an end to this obvious political campaign charade.
So it's NOT ok for baseball players to lie to congress. But it IS ok for the country's attorney general to lie to congress. Holder should be put on trial, found guilty and sent to prison. And if Obama is found to have had knowledge and been involved in the fast and furious issue, he should go to jail as well.
Holder did not commit perjury (apparently, neither did Clemens). He just didn't give Issa everything he asked for...likely he couldn't to protect on going operations.
You're right, Angel...Holder did not commit perjury as he submitted a letter retracting his earlier denial (lie) that he did not know of F&F at the time he said he did.
Wow.
Basically, he lied and then "took back" his lie.
So, the contempt action was not for the lie, er...the retracted lie, it was for the withholding of documents the substantiate the new timeline asserted by Holder in the retraction of his lie.
Clemens was put on trial because he was accused of perjury which let to him being held in contempt of congress.
Contempt of Congress is not solely reserved for cases of perjury.
But the contempt charge is for the withholding of documents, not the "lie" from Holder.
Holder should have been charged with perjury , If Clemmons can be charged and tried then why is Holder not subject to the same laws.
One of the charges against Clements was obstruction of congress. The same thing Holden is facing contempt charges on. Next to Obama, Holden is the most dangerous individual to the US constitution living in this country.
Harry you have no clue. Go back to sleep.