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Mitt Romney found himself on the opposite side of a skeptical audience on Thursday in Philadelphia, after he seemed to dismiss the impact of class sizes on student achievement.
Mario Tama / Getty Images
Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney greets students in a music class at Universal Bluford Charter School on May 24 in Philadelphia, Pa.
At an event capping a weeklong messaging effort surrounding the presumptive Republican nominee’s education policy, Romney cited a study by management consulting firm McKinsey to back up his argument that the number of students per teacher in a classroom wasn’t the most important predictor of academic success.
But the former Massachusetts governor’s assertion differs from the evidence produced in large, recent, peer-reviewed academic research showing that class size does, in fact, impact student outcomes.
“Well, if you had a class of five that would be terrific; if you had a class of 50 that’s impossible,” Romney said, when asked his view on class sizes. “So there are points where I think those who have looked at schools in this country and schools around the world, McKinsey for instance … went around the world and looked at schools in Singapore and Finland and South Korea and the United States and looked at differences and said gosh, schools that are the highest-performing in the world, their classroom sizes are about the same as in the United States. So it’s not the classroom size that is driving the success of those school systems.”
The Republican presidential candidate visited a West Philadelphia charter school
A teacher in the audience pushed back, citing a landmark Tennessee study conducted by a Harvard researcher in the 1980s – famous in the world of education research – which looked at the Tennessee STAR program, or Student/Teacher Achievement Ratio, in which the state reduced class sizes across the board by about a third, from 22-25 students per teacher down to 13-17.
The study of the program -- conducted when current U.S. Sen. Lamar Alexander, a Republican, was governor – found “compelling evidence that smaller classes help, at least in early grades.”
Romney didn’t respond directly to the teacher or study during the event in Philadelphia.
Political food fight
The Obama campaign tried to capitalize. “Larger Class Sizes Are the Answer to a Better Education? On What Planet?” blared an email from Obama spokeswoman Lis Smith.
That was echoed on a conference call today. “Romney insisted in face of logic, that small classes don't help,” said Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter. “Two years ago, [he] claimed that effort to reduce class size may hurt. I'm not sure what universe he's operating in. Every parent knows that smaller classes are preferable. Everybody knows that except Romney.”
But Romney did acknowledge in Philadelphia that having the smallest classes are optimal, but that they’re not the driver of success in the classroom.
The Romney campaign pointed to Obama’s Education Secretary Arne Duncan, who noted – not as a matter of personal opinion, but of official administration policy – that class sizes should be increased.
“In our blueprint for reauthorizing the Elementary and Secondary Education Act, we support shifting away from class-sized based reduction that is not evidence-based,” Duncan said, according to a transcript of Duncan’s speech, posted by Education Week, at the conservative think tank, the American Enterprise Institute.
Duncan has also called class size "a sacred cow," "and I think we need to take it on," said in March 2011. He later said, "My point there was that I think the quality of the teacher is so hugely important. I've said things like, give me the parent, give me an option of 28 children in a class with a phenomenal teacher or 22 children in a class with a mediocre teacher. If I was given that choice, I would choose a larger class size."
After the Obama conference call, Romney spokesman Ryan Williams boasted on Twitter: “If @BarackObama believes what his campaign is saying, he should fire Arne Duncan for supporting @MittRomney's view on class size.”
Romney campaign spokeswoman Andrea Saul released the following statement:
“If President Obama is as focused on class size as his campaign seems to be, his outdated view of education reform puts him at odds with leaders like Michelle Rhee, Bill Gates, and his own secretary of education -- all of whom have said that improving teacher quality gives kids the best opportunity to learn. Secretary Duncan even said that he ‘would choose a larger class size’ if it meant having a better teacher in the room. President Obama should be ashamed that his campaign is launching such cheap political attacks at the expense of a serious discussion about education policy. If he actually believes what his campaign is saying, he should fire his education secretary for supporting the same view on class size that Governor Romney is advancing.”
A broader reading of Duncan’s remarks before AEI shows he believes smaller classes are a good thing, but because of state budget restrictions, school districts need to find ways to adjust.
“Consider the debate around reducing class size,” he said. “Up through third grade, research shows a small class size of 13 to 17 students can boost achievement. Parents, like myself, understandably like smaller classes. We would like to have small classes for everyone -- and it is good news that the size of classes in the U.S. has steadily shrunk for decades. But in secondary schools, districts may be able to save money without hurting students, while allowing modest but smartly targeted increases in class size.”
In fact, research bares out that smaller class sizes have resulted in gains in K-3, but results are either inconclusive, not significant, or non-existent for older children.
The Obama’s campaign’s Smith responded this way, in an email to First Read: “Both experience and evidence show that smaller classes are better than bigger classes, especially for young children. But class sizes aren’t the only thing that matters, and President Obama and Secretary Duncan are also working to raise academic expectations, invest in teacher quality, and turn around struggling schools. That’s very different from Mitt Romney, who thinks that smaller class sizes don’t matter or can even be harmful.”
Taking on unions
Romney has accused Obama of being held captive by teachers unions, but positions like the one taken above by his education secretary, as well as his administration’s push on merit pay, teacher evaluations, and support for charter schools, have rankled those unions.
Obama has said, since the 2008 campaign, that reforms were necessary but that he would try to work “with” unions. Romney has taken a combative tone and blamed unions for promoting class size at a September Republican presidential debate in Florida.
“[A]ll the talk about we need smaller classroom size, look that's promoted by the teachers’ unions to hire more teachers,” Romney said, adding, “[A]s president, I will stand up to the National Teachers Unions.”
Romney’s tough talk toward labor has been a hallmark of not just his education plan, but his overall economic strategy. It’s understandable, in some ways, why Romney, like many mayors and governors of both parties across the country, would want to cut out teachers’ unions. As with many businesses, unions often prove to be an obstacle in an executive’s ability to enact wholesale changes or implement new programs – like pay for performance (merit pay), or fire teachers regardless of whether they’re underperforming.
Body of evidence
Parental involvement, effective teachers, and competent administrators are certainly major factors in how well students do. But studies have found that class sizes, when reduced by more than a couple students, especially in early grades, can have an impact on student achievement.
A study conducted in Tennessee -- published in April 2011 in the Journal of Educational and Behavioral Statistics, conducted by researchers from the University of Chicago and Virginia Commonwealth University -- found improvements as a result of smaller classes in “reading, mathematics, listening, and word recognition test scores” in early grades.
A California study, conducted by economics professors at the University of Kentucky and Amherst College and published in The Journal of Human Resources, also found that test scores improved -- even when taking into consideration the number of inexperienced teachers that had to be hired to fill the 25,000 jobs created by the state’s $1 billion effort to reduce class sizes. After a few years – when the new teachers gained experience – the cost of hiring those teachers was net-even.
“[T]here is little or no support for the hypotheses that the need to hire large numbers of teachers following the adoption of CSR [class-size reduction] led to a lasting reduction in the quality of instruction,” according to the study. “Overall, the findings suggest that CSR increased achievement in the early grades for all demographic groups…”
And on cost: “From a purely distributional point of view, the benefits of CSR were allocated in a quite regressive manner in the short term but in a close to neutral manner as of six years following the implementation of the policy.”
A Florida study, which followed up on the California results with a study of Florida’s similar effort, conducted by a Harvard researcher and government professor, found the class-size reduction had a minimal impact. The results “indicate that the effects … on cognitive and non-cognitive outcomes were small at best and most likely close to zero,” according to the study.
But as it also points out, class sizes were only reduced by two or three students per class: “One might not expect a large effect given that over three years class size was only reduced by 1.9 students more in the treated districts than in the comparison districts, but I also find no evidence of positive CSR effects in grades seven and eight, where the relative reduction in class size was three students.”
The Romney campaign, for its part, when asked about these studies, didn’t deny that class sizes impact student achievement; it’s just not “his focus.”
“The governor said, ‘Just getting smaller classrooms didn't seem to be the key,’” a Romney aide told First Read by email. “His policies address ensuring better teachers in the classroom and rewarding their success which is a very important part of improving student outcomes. That’s his focus.”
The Florida study also notes that providing additional teacher resources and supports, like the STAR Program did, combined with smaller class sizes, could have also had an impact: “It is impossible to disentangle the effect of reducing class size from the effect of providing additional resources.”
That’s something the original Tennessee study made a point of as well: “The benefits derived from these smaller classes persist leaves open the possibility that additional or different educational devices could lead to still further gains. For example, applying to small classes the technique of within-class grouping in which the teacher handles each small group separately for short periods could strengthen the educational process (essentially a second-order use of small class size). The point is that small classes can be used jointly with other teaching techniques which may add further gains.”
Like in many things, and especially in education, there’s no magic bullet. It’s a combination of a variety of tools, including class size.
Leave a Comment:
Don't tell me Willard's magic underwear is on fire again?
Anyone know how many of his kids went to public schools?
Size always matters... ;o)
Something a lot of people forget...
Most teachers are well-educated individuals. And their career forces them to be somewhat abreast with current events, too.
The few times I've ever seen a politician take on the teachers, the politician gets beat down because the teacher is smarter and better-informed than he/she is.
God bless the caretakers of the youth, man.
Willard responds to NOTHING when challenged or asked questions about his positions......It must be the 'rich guy thing' in him.
Guess we'll hear from him in a day or two, when he flips!
Funny thing is old gall it's the same number as Obama kids.
That'd be a big old 0. Cause just like Mitt Obama is 100% rich. A real fat cat. A true 1% - er, just like all you libbie hero politicians.
Now having been in college classes with over 500 people I can tell you first hand class size means little. If you want to learn, you will learn.
There is a huge shift in higher education - to online classes.
Can anyone explain this to me? Obama makes comparisons between the U.S. and the rest of the world and somehow he is not American and does not believe in American exceptionalism. But when Romney states that we should not try to improve our education system, because this is how the rest of the world does it, he is somehow righteous in his position.
And in your collegiate courses I have no doubt you wanted to learn.
And knew how important it was to do so :)
In a primary school system, that's not always the case. You are building the foundations, not building the structure.
And that's why they're seperate line-items in budgets, too. They don't hold much in common other than 'learning stuff' :D
sure, JDills. It's called 'hypocrisy'. Both are wrong, imo.
We should know where the rest of the world is at, and then try to beat them :)
Hey tek - how about that teacher that got suspended for telling her students you cannot say bad things about the president?
I presume you saw that. She was just flat stupid, both on the subject of free speech and more troubling , on her ability to use the English language.
Oh and isn't that one of the big things Walker is doing in Wisc.? He took on teachers and their union and changed their health care packages and insurance companies. Now he's up 12 points and coasting to a win.
Plus our very own SD unified is in the middle of a huge blow up. 1200 about to be laid off all because they insist on raises.
Simple fact is class sizes keep getting smaller, yet test scores keep going down.
NO matter really, the schools here are flat broke and laying off. Class size is only going up.
Teachers, class size, and the rest of it is of little importance in comparison to parent involvement.
All politicians like Romney seem to be able to do is figure out how to make a public school teacher's job tougher. These people educate everybody. They don't get to kick students out of their schools for lack of performance or behavior like charters and private schools. Of course, even if you have a student with any number of disabilities, including mental retardation and severe autism, they are supposed to test at the same level as a child who is a genius. The European countries do not include such students in their test scores. We do. Let's not forget that charters and private schools don't need to face standardized testing.
Of course, being the ultimate 1% profiteer, one of his goals would be to turn public schools over to for profit corporations. This is why he is doing all he can to doom public education. Romney sees no use in an organization that doesn't make rich folks richer. Public education is our best option for building lives for our youth, and in most places it works very well. Let's support our public schools and make a career as a teacher attractive to our best and brightest. With all of the obstacles that politicians set up to thwart success in the classroom, many new teachers are choosing career paths other than education within their first three years on the job.
Hahaaaa!! You put 500 eighth graders in a room and tell me how even ONE student will learn...they won't. You will be lucky if the teacher doesn't end up duct taped to the wall!! I would like Mitt to go and spend some time in a public school with spec ed students (middle school age preferably) and high need students that he is solely in charge of with no help, teach a lesson with rigor and relevance, use successful classroom management skills and then make the correlation that size doesn't matter. That is ridiculous.
Sadly, I bet if you put 500 8th graders from China in a class they still grossly outperform any class of 25 in Philly.
In fact I wonder what the average class size is in China?
Further, we all know that a class of 500 8th graders from the 50's or 60's would also outperform. Far more parental involvement and discipline back then.
But it all matters not. There is no more money. The fact is the education budgets have exploded, but all that money went to salaries, pensions and administrators.
Being broke, and we is flat broke, sucks. Economic reality always wins.
Get used to it gang, it's gonna get mighty ruff for awhile. Just ask Greece.
LOL
Oh mannnn, too funny!
Haha - knee-slapper!
C'mon - Even the looney libtards are a gigglin'!
Romney/Rubio 2012! - No more dog-eaters in da hood!
"There you go again" Romney, telling yet another LIE! It was great that the teachers didn't let that lie stand. Now if only we can get the media to do the same thing.
Minoki, don't you know? Everyone is supposed to just send their kids to Cranbrook. Come on, just shop around. We don't need no stinkin' public schools. BTW, his son Tagg is in the private school business, and he wants
vouchersgovernment subsidies, thank you very much tax payers!Romney's slogan: Privatize profits and socialize debt.
WTF, what's going on at the trailer park? Are they fumigating or something? Gagh!
When you begin mentioning studies, you immediately lose your republican audience. Studies, polls, surveys, experiments... those alll imply actually taking the time to understand a topic and republicans just can't have that. And the McKinsey study that Romney quotes... McKinsey Global Institute sponsors a lot of charter and private schools, so the results of their studies are almost guaranteed to come out against public education.
Oh Michael, go eat your cow pie. Now, I know why the studies show that 35% of Republicans know nothing.
Okay, whose bright idea was it to put Romney in front of teachers? Did they not see this buffoon making a bigger a** of himself than usual?
Of course class size matters and it matters more in the early years when students need the attention to not only learn but to be challenged. How does Romney not even grasp that logic? Oh wait - Romney - Logic - never mind!
Obama/Biden 2012
LMAO!
TFF!
LMAO!
Can I have a whoop-whoop!!
Spanky, I do not disagree with you about the parents, they are a huge part of the problem. If you look at China, they haven't cut Art, music, band, drama and so on but we have. (Studies show that a regular art program can help students perform on standardized testing.) They don't have spec ed students in the regular classrooms and we do, they have fully funded education systems and we don't. Look at German schools, they have school to work programs that we used to have in the 90's but are now continually cut. You are misguided if you really think that teachers salaries are so high. When you go to work, you are paid from 9-5 or whatever, teachers have to spend evenings and weekends working on lesson plans, p/t conferences, educational classes and so on even through the summer. They have to constantly be paying for college classes to re-certify every five years and that doesn't include any extras that their administrators give to them. They are evaluated yearly and are expected to excel in many different areas of instruction and management. I agree administrators are paid too much so we agree there too. Public schools have a school board and every member of the public is allowed to be there to listen and join in the conversations. If you have a problem with the public school, teachers, or administrators then please spend some time with the board or even in the school to see how you can help as a community member. Until you walk in a teachers shoes you have no idea how they earn every single penny and more.
Hey look - there my pal TruePatriot, chipper as always.
As gosh buddy, it's almost like you are making fun of trailer parks. How very snobbish of you. Damn near Romney-esque
Great point about profits TrueP - we should totally socialize profits. Wait a second, isn't there a term for that?
Then again, we could keep doing it Obama's way - dumping billions in sinkholes like Solyndra, Four Squared, Fisker, Ener1.
You know cause socializing the cash he sends to his pals is great. Why shoot TruePatriot it's almost like you are unaware that 71% of the Department of Energy's loans went to Obama bundlers and donors.
That's what I love about you libbies - ignorance is bliss.
Oh and gang, 75% of school district general funds go to salaries and benefits. Yeah, doesn't sound super sustainable [that's a libbie word I know you all love] to me.
Minoki - Our teachers are not paid enough for the time spent doing their jobs or for the important jobs they do. We need to have our priorities in place - which we don't. Teachers have the ability to encourage students to learn and to challenge them to excel.
Of course parents are important but not every child is blessed to have a parent who encourages them to learn and who challenges them to do their best.
Teachers are very special people and deserve more credit and pay than we give them.
I see we've left Michael1969 in the corner to amuse himself. We'll at least it's not as disturbing as the last time he was left to amuse himself!
Job 1 did you know that Michael says he is a teacher, this is what we have teaching our children, course I wonder what he teaches he did not mention that. Judging by his attitude he probably teaches woodshop. Want to see something. But with a face like that he could teach modeling or gay porn.
No.
Really, Mr. Romney?
Darn those pesky facts. Facts smacks just make them up as you go along. Isn't that right Mitt?
Really? Aren't our children's futures worth the investment? I guess not, unless you're looking for cheap third world labor just keep making excuses and pushing the classroom size up so you can blame the teachers for our schools under performing.
Sorry, Mitt most people can't afford to send their children to elite private boarding schools.
Obama/Biden 2012
Absolutely right Minoki.
See, you cite Germany and China, neither of which are flat broke like us.
And don't forget, we here in Cali spends ungodly amounts in ESL programs. A huge percentage of LA Unified cannot speak English at all.
What percent of the school budget of China goes to an CSL [Chinese as a second language] program?
I guessing zero.
And FYI I volunteer every year in my kids classes. One year I was the room 'mom.' I was on the PTA and worked closely with the teachers and the school. SO really, you can cut the 'walk a mile in their shoes' crap.
Bottom line here in SD is big layoff coming only because they insist on raises. Forgo the raises and no layoffs.
Who's walking in who's shoes?
Hey devie - good thing Obama can, eh? NOt very supportive is he?
Here is a FACT - my daughter who teaches the visually impaired contract calls for her to work a 6 1/2 hour day, being salaried there is no such thing as overtime!
Not to mention she is always available to the parents 24/7! A couple of years ago, her phone rang at 11:00 pm on Christmas Eve from a parent who was having difficulties...
Due to the massive overload of cases she has, on average she puts in a 10-12 day.
Why you ask?
Because, she will not allow her students to suffer the consequences on insufficient staffing!
You all can stick your heads up your rear - doesn't change a thing when it comes to overcrowding!
Tis,
Really? I hadn't heard that (probably because he's on ignore) but I digress, that's weird because last month Mikey claimed he was an electrical engineer...
Ahhh... the internet - where fantasy clashes with reality! lol
Feisty, well maybe he stuck his finger in the socket to many times. He seems touchy about his picture as well,maybe thats not really him or he is just a figment of our imagination, sorry that was a bad thought. eewww.
Why of course class size matters, could he state anything more dumb. No study has ever shown large classes are helpful, especially in the early grades. Having made that dumb statement, he then says, of children of two parents also do better. Why you insufferable jackass, take your Mormon thinking, where everything is all sunshine and lollipops and shove it where the sun doesn't shine. Real people know you will never help them.
Feisty - and Spanky is a lawyer. Again Fantasyland. I see she also believes class sizes have been getting smaller. Not a clue there!
The last person I would want teaching a child of mine is Mikey. Oooooh! You'd have to re-teach them everything.
Kudos to your daughter. Great, dedicated teachers are not always easy to find. Good ones shine through and my guess is your daughter is one of those!
ROTFLMAO! *zing*
Thanks SS - yes she is, not that I'm jaded or anything! lol
Students who she got through high school and into college & beyond still e-mail her on occasion to tell her what a difference she made in their lives!
I remind her from time to time, what she doesn't make in $$$, she makes 100x's over in making a difference!
Yo Michael 1969.....
Have you ever tried dog.....I mean other than when you were nursing.....
Yuck Yuck Yuck
Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL
That fukking dipsh!t has noone on "ignore"....he/she justs claims that....lol....loser
I have never in my life claimed such a thing......yet even more BULLSH!T coming from DumbFux!....lmao....what a tool!
campdog, but if both of his parents were male what was he nursing on.
Don't you just hate it when the facts make those smart Conservative talking points sound dumb? The Conservative war on education is old news compared to the Conservative war on women, but it's no less damaging to our American society;
http://www.progressive.org/conniff0511.html
Spanky-China may not have a Chinese as a second language program but they do have English as a second language program, not that that matters pertaining to your post but I think it is interesting. I would like a link saying 75% of the money is going to salaries because I would believe it is going to utilities/technology/administrators/travel. I understand that China and Germany aren't broke but our education system has been an issue even when our country was in the green and teachers have been ostracized for as long as I can remember.
Seeking Sanity-I absolutely agree about teachers, they are the most important part of our children's lives and futures unfortunately they are demonized by politicians which makes interest in being a teacher very undesirable for many talented people and then when they look at the salaries that is the deciding factor.
LMFAO!
What a joke! Anyone that has been raised by DumbFux couldn't possibly "make a difference" unless you're saying it skips a generation.....lol
Compassion coming from a DumbFux??....yeah right
Lighting up the libs - too easy! - They ARE a simple bunch after all.
Hey michael what do you teach.
Yes, Romney spreads cheer where ever he goes... Pissed of yet another group of citizens -- Probably getting "Divide and Conquer" tips from Scott Walker.
Tis the Season -- Trolling is a form of terrorism. No teacher has time to post non-stop. My sister teaches music and based on massive hours worked, she makes $4/hr. He's the handyman at the trailer park, and the other one is a paralegal for a tax law company, who lives two trailers down--the one with a row boat next to it.
In all fairness, Romney's starting premise that just throwing money at the problem isn't the answer is correct. But then he quickly goes down the toilet with privatization adn gawd knows what. That charter school is not doing better than public schools. Imagine the parent's being told this about their hard-earned money.
But one problem has been the growing number of children falling below poverty, thanks to the Great Recession and cuts to government programs. The best thing to do is make families "whole" by creating good paying jobs again. These concepts (investment) are simply NOT the GOP/Romney Race to the Bottom plan. They want the same failed Teapublican policies, but on steroids.
Dear Mittens:
While I love how you rattle off the usual Republican mantra of "parental involvement" and "two parent families" as the cure all for education...would you please tell me how you plan on codifying that into law? If you chat with schools, they will tell you that some parents are TOO involved, will you have a law for that too? Will you, on your FIRST DAY as President, outlaw divorce? You are going to have to so those two parent families are well, two parent. Will you see as a gosh darn good idea INCREASING the amount of two parent families by making gay marriage lawful? What ? Sorry, didn't hear you...you say you have to check with Rove and Norquist to see you feel about those things?
Well, do let us know.
If I thought you actually gave a sh!t, we'd talk but you're just as much of a political hack as the rest.....lol....nice try though....get up earlier next time
NDD - and let's not forget that some parents who would be VERY involved, work two jobs and can barely get the time to spend with their children to let them know they are loved. Sitting down with them for homework would be a treat but would also mean not being able to put food on the table.
Until the economy improves, children's time with their parents often takes a hit.
Tis - I think Mikey just said he doesn't teach anything.
Michael , if I thought you were a descent human being I might, but since you are nothing but a typical jackazz lacking an education except from small thinking U not a chance buckwheat.
LMAO!....ohhhh mannn....way TFF!
You loonbats on FR take the cake!......you're the reason I come on here....posters such as Feisty DumbFux and Tis make my day.
Knowing that the only place you have a "majority" in the United States is on this board paid for by NBC is all too cute!
Rattling your cages is about as hard as distracting someone at the Special Olympics by throwing something shiny on the ground! Too Easy Baby!
Predictable, Predictable, Predictable!
I know when I wake up in the morning that you're not going to change my mind nor am I going to change yours, but what a hoot to lob dem bombs back and forth!
LOL....P.S. - Unlike you libtards, I don't come on here to gain validation from anyone....lol ('specially fake ones like at the Dew Drop Inn....LMAO!)
Woohooooooo - DumbFux with Dungeons & Dragons!..lol..."Nerds Unite!!"
Romney/Rubio 2012! - No more dog eaters in da hood!
Michael - I hope to God you're not a teacher. You make a comment like that about Special Olympics and you think you're even remotely cute? You're a disgusting, vile excuse for a human being. And, man is not a word anyone would use to describe you.
Most young children I know would not stoop to your level. Seriously - you thought THAT was somehow clever?
Your ignorance is overwhelming but your lack of class is just beyond belief.
@tis the seasons
@Feisty
@Michael 1969
You sir are a fraud. You claim you are a teacher?
_______________________________________________________
Michael1969 Comment collapsed by the community
It's called 25 years in the power industry. Call if you wanna get educated. Otherwise do your own homework.
Not all of us are eligible for food stamps.
P.s. - Why is it that the looney left want EVERYTHING done for them?....including research now.
#1.28 - Thu Mar 22, 2012 1:03 PM CDT
________________________________________________
Now have a nice Memorial weekend with your family and get real
I taught high school for a number of years. I know firsthand that class size matters on many levels.
You don't teach kindergarteners in classes of 500. But why not?
There's a good reason why private schools offer small class sizes, just like there's a reason why rich school districts pay their teachers more. If not, then it would be foolish business practice.
Q: What do they know that Spanky doesn't?
A: What DOES Spanky know, anyway?
Potato, Patatto.
The only real point where any improvement can take place is with the students themselves. No matter how much involvement you have with teachers, assistants, parents, whatever, if the student is not motivated, they will not work hard to get good grades. If the student IS truly motivated, class size, bad teachers, bad facilities, wealth of the school, parental wealth won't matter.
Some students want to do very well in school. They enjoy learning and want to excel. Others just are marking time until they can get out. They do the bare minimum to graduate and they don't care that they drive down the average. To them a D- is as good as an advanced placement class A+, the D- is just easier to get.
The key behind good teachers is that they are able to discover what it takes to motivate each and every student to achieve, rather than just to get by. Great teachers find that spark and ignite it.
The problem currently is that many politicians have decided to demonize teachers. Why would anyone want to get into a profession where the public wants to take away your ability to retire. Where they call you lazy, and bums and public union parasites. These are the same parents whose children do not excel, become bullies, and induce Columbine reactions.
10 years from now when Wisconsin's public school system ranks dead last, people will be asking why they can't attract good teachers. The answers will be obvious to anyone whose child is taught by that system.
Northstar,
OUCH! That one has to STING!
Like I said, where fanstasy clashes with reality!
Thanks for taking the time to look it up - I always knew he was full of @!$%#!
I've gotta see him spin his way out of this one... lmfao!
The Republicans need dumba$$es like Michael 1969 and Spanky in the corral. Their biggest fear is an educated society like the rest of the industrialized, civilized world. The more this campaign progresses, the more I realize how ignorant Mitt is and that he's a victim of the dumbing down process his own party promotes. Folks, we cannot let these people back in power. They will kill public education as we know it and the only ones with access to it will be, of course, the wealthy. This, more than anything, is what this election should be about.
Maybe Michael teaches power/electrical something or another.....NOT!
...since he doesn't seem to realize if he is indeed employed somehow around children or adults the stuff he posts could find it's way back to his employer.
Man, I'm late. I was reading other threads. Anyhow I'm glad I came to this party.
FR: The Obama campaign tried to capitalize. "Larger Class Sizes Are the Answer to a Better Education? On What Planet?"
Is Willard laughing now?
@ NorthstarDFL
Indeed Micheal is a fraud and a loon.
@newday,
Congratulations on the newly expected cherubs.
Where OH where did our foul mouthed, pathological lying, yellow bellied coward slither off to?
Couldn't shut him up earlier and all of a sudden *crickets! lmao!
Thanks, Beverly, I can't WAIT!
Or as Obama would say ...
Botato, Botatto.
(Have a good weekend Michael)
An uneducated populace is more easy to control, manipulate and lie to. And much more likely to be conned into voting against their self-interest.
My belief is that Romney supports ejumucation as opposed to education.
Yep ... that's why they fall for Hope and Change ... free birth control ... the repubs are at war on women ... evil rich are paid on the backs of poor ... it's Bush's fault .... we just need more time ... my spending is less than everyone else ...
My belief is that Romney supports ejumucation as opposed to education.
That probably has something to do with Romney being twice as well ejumucated and educated as Obama, having a Harvard JD cum laude and a Harvard MBA (top 5% - Baker Scholar), huh?
campdog
Yo Michael 1969.....
Have you ever tried dog.....I mean other than when you were nursing.....
Yuck Yuck Yuck
campdog,
Mike graduated.
He lays down by his bowl now.
Bob, why are republican polical types going after teachers? As the son of a teacher, I know for a fact they don't make a lot of money. During college, I worked delivering auto parts for a national parts company. I had the opportunity to work as a substitute teacher but passed. I couldn't afford the pay cut. Why this big lie, Bob?
"This is way too easy," she said confidently. "The rain in Spain stays mainly in the plain."
Which translates roughly to: "Michael obviously teaches shop, and is well versed in power tools, being one himself."
"By George," said Professor Higgins, "I think she's got it."
Well, and why not? Because Eliza Dolittle had one-on-one instruction.
campdog
Yo Michael 1969.....
Have you ever tried dog.....I mean other than when you were nursing.....
Yuck Yuck Yuck
campdog,
Mike graduated.
He lays down by his bowl now longing for his teat. Besides, breast milk is not nutritous for adults.
JDills
Can anyone explain this to me? Obama makes comparisons between the U.S. and the rest of the world and somehow he is not American and does not believe in American exceptionalism.
Better check your globe; JDills
Hawaii is in contentinnal America!!!
Chucky,
The teachers have become a liberal cudgel to beat conservatives over the head with, basically in the pursuit of expanded, bigger government.
Teachers have been become a privleged and protected segment of society that make more in total benefits than average Americans which fund them, yet feel they are above sharing the burden of unemployment because of the "it's for our children" manipulation.
And that is your real big lie ...recent events have proven that "it's for the children" is nothing but a pretense.
It is solely about pay and political power, not all teachers, but the unions and political powers - absolutely.
For those "not all" teachers, it's a shame they allowed the unions and dems to use them .... especially when unions and big politics have already ruined so many industries.
Regardless, it had to happen, but they brought on the own ... now the public is wising up ... look at Wisconsin.
Too bad for the good teachers.
Note to libs - The above is just an opinion, not a fact, a lib asked for. I gotta get ... will probably respond tommorrow to your opinions about my opinion.
Why is it that when I read either Michael, Spanky or Bob's posts, I hear banjo's in the background? I would be nervous if I were Ned Beatty.
Most likely, because between the three of them, they do not have a full set of dental records...
tony,
The movie gave me the creeps but I did like the dueling banjos.
Surprised we haven't heard back from Michael. I'm amazed that a nutjob bagger would lie about his profession.
me too, but it was a great flick. Some of Burt's best acting, for sure. And on a side note, it's kinda funny that the banjo player on the original recording was Jewish.
Micheal1969, thanks for the poliyical humor, sure beats the heck out of the political humor FR lefties present.
Really did not know much about the movie before I went except the actors. Thanks for the fact aobut the Jewish banjo player. Cool.
Many years later I went on a 7 day canoe trip into the Boundary WatersWilderness area of Northern Mn with five other women. That movie came up around the camp fire to keep our minds off the bears in the woods. :)
If you're a guy, I salute you!!!!!
Michael1969
C'mon - Even the looney libtards are a gigglin'!
Dinner with Barack? You're fired up. Dinner with Mitt and Trump? You're just fired.
http://twitter.com/TheDemocrats/status/205803054677757952/photo/1
Only idiots like you with personalites disorders would laugh at such low life crude statements; Mikey!!!
BTW: Getting Fired is NOT FUNNY at all either; Mikey!!!
Size matters ....
The size of Romney's poll numbers being higher than Obama's for the majority of the past month .... "LOL"
Friday, May 25, 2012
The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Friday shows Mitt Romney earning 45% of the vote and President Obama attracting 44% support. Six percent (6%) would vote for a third party candidate, while another five percent (5%) are undecided ....
Looking good for Mitt again .... "LOL"
Tony,
Sorry to spoil your image in your mind, but I am a woman. :)
The trip was planned out by one of the women's husband. We had five portages, one with 40 steps down to next lake. We had brought plastic jugs filled with wine. We each carried a Duluth pack and someitmes could not carry the canoe also. So we did the portage twice. Finally arrived at our campsite and did day trips for six days. when we got back to the outfitters, we stayed in their bunkhouse for the night. Went to the best lodge on the Gunflint trail for a gourmet dinner and cilvization that evening.
While having a real cocktail in the lounge I saw a paper for the first time. The headline screamed that President George Bush the first was going to send troops to invade Iraq by the deadline he had set.
Good place to be if a war ever breaks out ... the Northern woods.
WE ARE WISCONSIN ISSUES TV STATIONS CEASE AND DESIST LETTER ON RGA’S FALSE, MISLEADING ATTACK ADMay 25, 2012
RGA ad knowingly uses unverified jobs claims to falsely attack Tom Barrett
MADISON – Today, We are Wisconsin sent an official cease and desist letter to TV stations around Wisconsin demanding that an ad by Right Direction Wisconsin – a PAC of the Republican Governors Association – be immediately removed from rotation because of its false and unverified claims manipulating Scott Walker’s worst-in-the-nation jobs record.
The ad titled “Just the Facts” fits perfectly into the Orwellian world Walker and his allies inhabit. In reality, the ad uses the self-produced and unverified data Walker trotted out the day before official jobs numbers from BLS were released to create a false and misleading impression ahead of another monthly jobs report showing Wisconsin shed thousands of jobs.
Today, the nonpartisan fact checker Politifact rated a similar ad from Walker’s official campaign “Mostly False” due to the unverifiable nature of his factual claims, and the obvious political timing of the release.
“These ads by the RGA’s PAC have no candidate protections, and therefore have no guarantee under law to be broadcast – an television stations are not protected from legal liability for airing a false and misleading advertisements sponsored by such entities,” said We Are Wisconsin spokesman Kelly Steele.
“Given the obvious falsehoods perpetrated by unverifiable numbers fabricated by Scott Walker’s political appointees – all to create a smokescreen around Walker’s worst-in-the-nation jobs record – stations have an obligation to pull RGA ads parroting the same false and misleading statements in their own commercials.”
http://www.wearewisconsin.org/uncategorized/we-are-wisconsin-issues-tv-stations-cease-and-desist-letter-on-rgas-false-misleading-attack-ad/
Romney campaiging in a public school?
it conjures up an image of 'a vulture in a hen house'.
A vulture capitalist will never be able to understand the critical role public schools play in our society - education is the ultimate equalizer in the constitutional sanctioned principle of 'equality under the law.'
This vulture only sees his next prey - in this public school.
bill bob philly - I'm pretty sure Michael couldn't pass the tests to qualify for a teacher. And, if by some wild chance he did, he would be fired pretty quickly for his total lack of intelligence. Even shop teachers are more knowledgeable. And, clearly, REAL teachers are better men than Michael can EVER be!
american -if you find Michael's degrading comments about Special Olympians funny then you should check to see what kind of person you really are. Pathetic!
Romney continues to prove to me that he matches the corporate shrill persona that I fought for 35 years.
Here's how a corporate shrill "thinks":
1) Form the conclusion you want that serves your best personal interest.
2) Find, form, create, or otherwise make up "facts" to support it.
3) Use your power and stature to promote both your "facts" and your conclusion.
4) Say it often and loud and, oh by the way, always source it to someone else for political cover later.
Fits Romney like a glove. EVERY time! A worthless cororate shrill is what you people have brought us... turns my stomach.
Two Points:
Rombot doesn't know what he's talking about...again.
Teapublicans believe education is for those who can afford it, not the indolent liberal moochers who are devastating the nipple of society with their crazy notions of universal education, health care or dignity of life. What bosh and rubbish. Now, we have car elevators to which we must attend.
Rombot.Has.Nothing.
ForePlinger-well said.
Every Mayoral Candidate in (virtually) every city decries the dismal state of the schools in his city and has a plan to improve education.
This pattern has persisted over the past 50 years Hasn't changed because the mayor has very little influence over local schools; the School Board is normally elected independent of the Mayor.
This is a red herring and is all about Mitt the Barber showing how tough he will be on teachers' unions.
If he is really serious he would decree that each child must have two parents in the home and that the woman not work but volunteer at the child's school.
That's a bit of a problem for the Conservative Movement, one more way in which it's not one entity but a coalition of groups who in many ways are at odds.
Cultural Conservatives WOULD decree that all households be two parent, with enormous social costs for single parenthood.
Big business Conservatives WANT every adult in the workforce (right up to those who are too old to do useful work. They would simply be discarded.) It provides a larger labor pool and holds down costs.
Mitt Romney = Out of Touch...
no matter how many are in class, this equation is quickly learned!
I thought that was common knowledge. well common to everybody else except willard. Ya-know when you've grown up and live a shelter life like willard. Thing like this should make working families stop and think, this guy is really not in touch with the real world.
So, tell me this-
If you drop two rocks from the top of the Empire State building- one larger and heavier than the other- do they drop at the same, or different, rates?
Your "common knowledge" ought to inform you. . .
How about we drop you from the Empire State Building. That would be more fun.
Ii am guessing from your comment that you are clueless about the answer.
Since you probably did not take physics- try the Google.
You might be amazed. . .
Why does it prove anything to know that Galileo proposed this as a thought experiment in which two cannonballs of different sizes were dropped from the Leaning Tower of Pisa? Lore sometimes has it that he did in fact provide this demonstration but there is no documentation of him having done so at the time. Gravity works on all things equally at an accelerative force of 32 feet per second per second, with aerodynamic drag being the governor.
All of which I learned in a public school. So what was your point, other than just a need to constantly chirp in ways that don't contribute to the dialog?
No, not really. I just like mine more.
What it proves is that, often, even the most brilliant person has the wrong prejudice based on gut instinct- and can create proofs to support it. Indeed, Galileo challenged the long held theory that objects of different weights fell at different rates- a theory "proved" by Aristotle. He compared a feather to a rock.
The argument about class sizes is much the same. There are competing studies that show different results- but the proof exists that class size is immaterial to achievement in the long run.
There is no question that the number of children in a class makes a difference to the teacher- but good teachers can, and do, effectively educate children no matter the class size.
What I find peculiarly interesting is the number of liberals dismissing the results from other countries. Are they actually saying that human beings are different in different countries? That, for example, Japanese, Chinese, or Singaporean children are different from American children based solely on their race?
Let me dispell that bigotry- human brains are human brains, and human development is human development. The cultural difference between our, and other countries goes much farther toward explaining the educational disparity. That can be laid at the feet of expectations-of the students by the parents and, yes, the teachers.
Of course, as part of that equation, in any of the countries I mentioned, if a teacher failed to educate the children in his or her charge, said teacher would be fired. Try doing that in a public school in this country. In this country, teachers routinely blame the children for the teacher's inability to properly instruct.
It is astounding that, of all public employees, only teachers are almost completely exempt from the rules that apply to everyone else. On police forces and fire forces, there are clear rules that will result in dismissal- so, a firefighter who is drunk on duty, or a police officer who is using drugs or prostitutes, gets discharged and loses his or her pension. A teacher, on the other hand, can show up drunk in class - and after three years and a couple of hundred thousand dollars in legal fees paid by taxpayers, at the end of a tenure hearing, will most likely prevail.
It is a ridiculous system, which was bound to, and is, failing.
At least I don't have to eat for the rest of the day, having just been fed an enormous pile of fact-free baloney.
I particularly like it when Conservatives try to use Galileo as proof of ANYTHING, when he ended his life under house arrest, put their by religious Conservatives and protectors of the aristocracy...the wealthy elites. Today's Conservatives simultaneously try to push "Intelligent design" while holding up the man who said "and yet it moves" on his deathbed in response to the Church's dictate of Geocentrism as fact. Hypocrisy, thy name is Conservative.
Then we move on to a bunch of mumbo-jumbo claiming that class size doesn't matter without proving it. Extra baloney points for moving seamlessly from the assertion that "there are competing studies that show different results" to "the proof exists that class size is immaterial to achievement". You don't get to say "class size is immaterial" when you've just admitted that "studies show different results." Never mind that the schools that have the best results in this country tend to have smaller class sizes...facts are just "immaterial" when when you're trying to disassemble public education, as it was when Galileo had to be silenced for telling the truth about what he saw in his telescope.
Btw, who is "dismissing the results from other countries"? That just comes out of left field, as do all Conservative deflections. How do we compare to other nations?
The first myth—that we spend more than anyone else—was something of a mantra for the Bush administration. In the October 1993 issue of Phi Delta Kappan, a letter from David Berliner of Arizona State University quoted virtually everyone in the Bush cabinet as uttering some variation of it. Berliner said he couldn't find any evidence to support their claims.
http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/nov95/vol53/num03/Debunking-the-Myths-About-Money-for-Schools.aspx
In fact the United States spends about an average amount on education as compared to all developed countries and gets...about average results. Never mind, Conservatives are on a mission here, and that mission is the destruction of public education.
Both ironically and predictably, nations that outperform the US on the educational front do exactly the OPPOSITE of what Conservatives would do. Conservatives would cut our already deficient funding for professional development and fire teachers wholesale;
http://www.ascd.org/publications/educational-leadership/nov95/vol53/num03/Debunking-the-Myths-About-Money-for-Schools.aspx
No wonder 50% of ALL newly trained teachers leave the schools for greener pastures within 5 years of earning their teaching certificates.
Given the above it comes as no surprise the assertion that "teachers are almost completely exempt from the rules that apply to everyone else" is another lie. a quick Google search of "teacher fired" produced a fast 3,180,000 results.
Go figure.
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United States is substantially behind other nations in providing teacher professional development that improves student learning
Report Identifies Practices that Work
February 4, 2009
NEWS RELEASE
Contact: Barbara McKenna, 650-725-8600
WASHINGTON, D.C. – Every year, 9 in 10 of the nation’s 3 million teachers participate in professional development designed to improve their content knowledge, transform their teaching, and help them respond to student needs. These activities, which can include workshops, study groups, mentoring, classroom observations, and numerous other formal and informal learning experiences, have mixed results in how they effect student achievement.
Research shows that professional learning can have a powerful effect on teacher skills and knowledge and on student learning. To be effective, however, it must be sustained, focused on important content, and embedded in the work of collaborative professional learning teams that support ongoing improvements in teachers’ practice and student achievement.
A comprehensive new report released today by researchers from Stanford University and the National Staff Development Council (NSDC) finds that while the United States is making progress in providing support and mentoring for new teachers and focusing on bolstering content knowledge, the type of support and on-the-job training most teachers receive is episodic, often fragmented, and disconnected from real problems of practice. The report also reviews promising strategies in high-performing nations and U.S. states.
“Teachers lack time and opportunities to view each other’s classrooms, learn from mentors, and work collaboratively,” says Gov. James B. Hunt, Jr., the former four-time governor of North Carolina.
“Most states and districts are still not providing the kind of professional learning that research suggests improves teaching practice and student outcomes,” says Linda Darling-Hammond, Charles E. Ducommon Professor of Teaching and Teacher Education at Stanford University, who wrote the report along with a team of researchers from Stanford’s School Redesign Network. “The research tells us that teachers need to learn the way other professionals do—continually, collaboratively, and on the job. The good news is that we can learn from what some states and most high-performing nations are doing.”
The report is part of a multi-year effort that will track state’s progress over time and identify model policies and practices.
“This first installment provides a baseline assessment of what works and what is happening in states and other nations to provide us with useful benchmarks against which we can measure state and district progress,” says Stephanie Hirsh, executive director of the NSDC, which is sponsoring the research. “Taken as a whole, the effort will be the most comprehensive attempt to measure and monitor what states and districts are doing in professional learning to improve quality and results.”
The multiyear research initiative is funded by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, MetLife Foundation, NSDC, and the Wallace Foundation.
Progress & Challenges
The report – Professional Learning in the Learning Profession: A Status Report on Teacher Development in the U.S. and Abroad – includes analyses of newly available data sources, including the National Center for Educational Statistics’ Schools and Staffing Survey (SASS) database for 2003-04. SASS is a nationally representative sample of more than 130,000 public and private school teachers across all 50 states and the District of Columbia. Researchers also examined the NSDC Standards Assessment Inventory (2007-08), which has been administered to more than 150,000 teachers in more than 5,400 schools across 11 states and one Canadian province. Researchers examined data from 4 states (Alabama, Arizona, Georgia, and Missouri) that had administered the survey statewide.
The report documents some progress but many serious problems in teacher development today:
What Other Nations Do
The report notes that U.S. teachers participate in workshops and short-term professional development events at similar levels as teachers in other nations. But the United States is far behind in providing public school teachers with opportunities to participate in extended learning opportunities and productive collaborative communities. Those opportunities allow teachers to work together on instructional planning, learn from one another through mentoring or peer coaching, conduct research on the outcomes of classroom practices, and collectively guide curriculum, assessment, and professional learning decisions.
“The United States is squandering a significant opportunity to leverage improvements in teacher knowledge to improve school and student performance,” writes Gov. Hunt in the Foreword to the report. “Other nations, our competitors, have made support for teachers and teacher learning a top priority with significant results. In these countries, students learn and achieve more. Teachers stay in the field longer and are more satisfied with their work. Educators take on even more responsibility for improving what happens in their buildings.”
Data from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development and other sources indicate that other nations provide:
One of the reasons opportunities for teacher development are superior in other nations is that teachers in those countries don’t spend all of their hours in the classroom. U.S. teachers average far more net teaching time in direct contact with students (1,080 hours per year) than any other OECD nation. By comparison, the OECD average is only 803 hours per year for primary schools and 664 hours per year for upper secondary schools. U.S. teachers spend about 80 percent of their total working time engaged in classroom instruction, as compared to about 60 percent for these other nations’ teachers, who thus have much more time to plan and learn together, and to develop high-quality curriculum and instruction.
In most countries, about 15 to 20 hours per week is spent on tasks related to teaching, such as preparing lessons, meeting with students and parents, and working with colleagues. By contrast, U.S. teachers generally have from 3 to 5 hours a week for lesson planning, which is done independently. Following are some examples of approaches to professional learning that provide lessons for states and the federal government.
The experiences of these countries, the report says, “underscore the importance of on-the-job learning with colleagues as well as sustained learning from experts in content and pedagogy. The diversity of approaches indicates that schools can shape professional learning to best fit their circumstances and teacher and student learning needs.”
###
National Staff Development Council is a nonprofit membership group representing more than 12,000 educators committed to effective professional development for every educator every day. NSDC recognizes the singular purpose of effective professional learning as ensuring great teaching for every student so that all students achieve at high levels.
The School Redesign Network at Stanford University engages in research and development to support districts and schools that are equitable and enable all students to master the knowledge and skills needed for success in college, careers, and citizenship.
Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation is guided by the belief that every life has equal value and works to help all people lead healthy, productive lives. In developing countries, it focuses on improving people’s health and giving them the chance to lift themselves out of hunger and extreme poverty. In the United States, it seeks to ensure that all people— especially those with the fewest resources—have access to the opportunities they need to succeed in school and life. Based in Seattle, the foundation is led by CEO Jeff Raikes and co-chair William H. Gates Sr., under the direction of Bill and Melinda Gates and Warren Buffett.
MetLife Foundation supports education, health, civic, and cultural organizations. It seeks to increase opportunities for young people to succeed, give students and teachers a voice in improving education, create connections between schools and communities, and develop leadership. Its funding is informed by findings from the annual The MetLife Survey of the American Teacher.
The Wallace Foundation is an independent, national foundation dedicated to supporting and sharing effective ideas and practices that expand learning and enrichment opportunities for all people. Its three current objectives are: strengthening education leadership to improve student achievement, enhancing out-of-school learning opportunities, and expanding participation in arts and culture.
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I went to a high school where the average was about 48 students per class...nearly 70% went on to college in 1968. For two of those four years, we were in half sessions since the high school burned down. The average SAT score for my class was about 1100...why, the emphasis was on reading, writing and math. We had homework every night and our parents made sure that we were prepared for the next day.
My sons went to a two high schools in the area, one had class sizes of 30, the other 35. Both went on to Ivy League schools on academic scholarships.
TJM - I agree - class size might help - but the bottom line is parents and students taking responsibility.
Nowadays parents want to be involved - but only as helicopter parents - all telling everyone else what to do and no sweat equity on their part
Bush's No Child Left Behind and teaching to the test is a big part of the problem, come on. Certainly attacking teachers is not the answer -- most leave after a few years. Getting the teacher's union to fire bad teachers in exchange for better pay for the good teachers would be a place to start. And this can be determined in better ways than test scores.
My biggest issue with charter schools is if they can cherry pick the students, which leads us back to segregation. Otherwise there are some good ideas to be gleaned from charter schools, but not at the expense of traditional public schools or parents. Also, there are some things that really need to remain under federal oversight, and education is one of those things.
Romney demonstrates yet again that he is ignorant about education and out of touch with reality. He compares US public schools with those in Asia and Europe to support his claim that class size doesn't matter. If Americans supported their school systems like the most successful countries abroad, he might have point. However, our schools are starved for cash and he promises even more tax cuts that will drive public schools down further and further. He is a fool and a hypocrite to make noises about education - he knows nothing.
Willard Romney is a complete Dumb A$$.
And he mentioned certain countries, not others like Finland where teachers are highly regarded and paid very well, or in Japan where the culture of not shaming your family and therefore parents are very involved in their children's success.
Romney's solution is to legislate morality, I don't know, force people to get married and stay married? Well not gays, or mixed race couples, but by all means as many wives as you want. And psst, that voucher/private thing is so they can bring back school prayer and teach creationism.
But ultimately maximize profit and tell those poor kids no lunch for you! Oh and leave costs to local government, who then have to raise their taxes, or place more burden on parents to buy school supplies, which is already a growing problem. Privatize profit, socialize debt, that's what it always comes down to for corporate raider Mitt.
Once again the FR obama sheep have shown their inability to connect dots.
Perhaps if any of them have a clue, perhapas they can explain why the baby boomers who attended suburban or city schools came out better prepared (statistically speaking) than those being educated today. My graduating class size was over 750 students and it was indeed rare for subject class sizes to be less than 30 students.
When I attended a state college, many of the students from the rural areas had graduating classes of less than 25 -30 students. Yet statistically speaking they were just as bright as any of those coming from the far larger urban areas.
I know, let's just have everybody move back to the farm to have smalller classes.
I have to really chuckle about those who that when confronted by the decline of of our k-12 world rankings over the years first thought that we could...
Fix it by throwing more $$$ at it. Hmmmm, that didn't wprk.
Well let's create a federal dept of education. Hmmmmm, even more money spent and still world rankings declined.
Ok, let's get more teachers with advanced degrees. Oppps, the liberal rag Des Moines register did a study on the effectiveness of this strategy in the state of Iowa. Damn, that didn't show any clear distinction either. This even with both smaller class sizes than the baby boomers.
Then came "no child left behind" and "race to the top" both of which puts the emphasise on testing to get results and $$$. Surprise, surprise those programs aren't working either.
So obamas program of the day is to promote smaller class sizes? LMAO! So the tennesee 1980's study said that works. Well this is 2012 and still we have problems in k-12 education.
How droll... Seems that the only thing that appears to work is having both parents and teachers regain controll in the classrooms by promoting the mastery of the fundamentals within the context of the three R's early on and with diversifiactaion latter on with parental and school district support with minimal PC. The K-12 goals shouldn't be to only educate one for college, but to teach the students the mastery of the fundamentals and to become a productive part of our society. Shouldn't matter their ultimate path as long as they were the ones that decided on their path with support from their mentors.
Earlier this week, charlie rose interviewed a gal who wrote a book concerning Americas school system. Interesting interview and sounds like an interesting book for reading.
Visit charlierose.com for the interview and title of the book.
First Read takes sides on class size...Obama's side...
...and takes sides trying to tell us Obama actually does stands up to teacher unions... tell that to inner city kids stuck in failed schools and having no school choice.
Damn right Romney shoud take a "combative' tone with teacher unions...they are the problem, not class size!
No wonder you are David Axelrod's favorite network!
VP Bob throwing out another, "cow pie of distortion.”
Job 1 he can't see the probe is in the way.
Yep, liberals hate education. And i've got some swamp land in the Mojave for sale. I've also been to other star systems, broke bread with a bigfoot and turned Einstein on to the Theory of Relativity.
Well it surely looks like Obama failed math class .... "LOL"
Looks like the republicans failed economics class being they voted for the Ryan budget which is the same policies that have brought another recession to England.
Romney being the business wiz thinks the budget is marvelous. A recession on purpose is just marvelous?
Romney would have let the American car industry die too.
How can anyone think especially after his record as governor that Romney has a clue as to how to be president. He is just the rubber stamp that Norquist asked for and nothing more. Just as much a puppet as bush. Rich first, country last.
bigbenalaska - every time you post you look more foolish. I'm sure you're one of the people representing the uneducated!
shhhh, don't tell him. He thinks he's making a difference.
On this Memorial Day Weekend I just want to thank all those who have and continue to serve.
To those who gave it all, we remember and will never forget.
Raising class sizes will allow us to pay the best teachers more money to do a better job. That is the common sense we are looking for in our leaders. It's not about letting Unions cover up for worthless teachers no matter how much those unions vote for Obama.....
So..... Romney tells us Obama sold GM to the Unions and now GM is setting earnings records... I'm sorry UAW Pleeeeeeease, you were saying something?
And how much is GM still in debt to the tax payers .... "LOL"
Did you get your stock statement for the shares you own of GM from the tax payer bail out .... ??
I haven't ....
bigben
Pretty easy to smugly sit on that pile of loot you get from the state as your share of the oil money and throw potshots and the less advantaged folks down south for accepting government assistance.
You did not have to risk a dime to get this pile of cash the Alaska government extorted from the oil companies yet you extol the Teapublican virtues of government non-interference and self reliance.
Education and information are the enemy of the conservative movement. Education cuts are a self-preservation model for Republican legislators.
Don't let political rhetoric make you a victim Al. Take responsibility to educate yourself regardless of what the Liberal caucus would have you believe it's a far better education....
And yet, UAW you want to vote for the party that took a surplus and turned it into the largest deficit in our history in just 8 years.
The very same policies that brought down our country the first time by bush and the republicans are the very same policies that Romney promises to bring back only with more tax cuts for the rich.
The rich with their greed already took your job and then you lost your home and now they are after your food. Romney's donors are his new investors he needs to make richer with permanent tax cuts, no matter the cost to America.
Rich first, country last and you are dumb enough to vote for them? Then you want to question others smarts. Give me a break.
VOTE FOR EDUCATION...VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT 2012
Cut education but not the military--a tried and true formula for disaster.
If we educate the masses, there will be no need for a military.
What, and miss out on an opportunity for the uber rich to make more money? Not a chance, my friend. Since the end of WW II, the motto if this country has been "war pays" or "don't knock it 'til you try it!" We've lost tens of thousands of soldiers, wasted trillions of dollars and guess what? The world ain't any safer. Maybe it's time to give diplomacy a fighting chance.
I went to school in two small towns and made it to the top 1 % of earners! It has nothing to do with teachers but has a lot to do with parental support and personal drive.
TES - too bad you give no credit to teachers who, I am sure, managed to teach you something. Good for you that you made something of yourself. Pity you don't give credit to those who helped set you up for success. Clearly you're not as smart as you think you are! (From a 1% er who knows better!)
SeekingSanity
Well said!
TES -2640989 "..has a lot to do with parental support and personal drive."
Equally important; however, even a mediocre teacher still can impart, at the very least, new knowledge, if you are willing to learn.
I was very blessed where I grew up. Small public school located in Iowa, where nearly 90% of my teachers had their Master's degree (including grade school). I had 35 in my high school graduating class and we were one of the largest. I also never understood why so many people panned the school lunches. I knew I was fortunate to have a lunch (my parents paid with no direct federal assistance) and I liked the food. Maybe they were good cooks?
It takes a combination of things to learn, desire of knowledge or new ideas, appreaciated teachers, well trained teachers, adult (parental and non-parental) support, community involvement. And that takes money and leadership; not bigotry.
Notice I didn't say religion. Although I understand the importance of faith, that teaching belongs at home, taught with respect for other faiths, instead of Orwellian voucher-run schools.
I find it interesting how many people and legislatures are trying to "unfund" Planned Parenthood's "other" family support services while asking the very state legislatures to "fund", via vouchers, their faith based grade and high schools.
Ahhhh! Isn't hypocrisy grand?!!!
The more one learns, the greater the shadow of tyranny is reflected.
Yea, class size doesn't matter, and neither do profit margins, right Mitt?
Right anybody you mean ....
Obama couldn't fiscally manage a wiener cart ....
And how much interest does Obama have us paying on his massive debt and deficit .... ??
You mean the debt that the republicans voted on to create, that debt?
You act you are not aware that bush and the republicans inherited a projected surplus that could have paid off the entire debt by 2010. But the republicans chose instead to give tax cuts and start wars of choice and then give more tax cuts to the richest and somehow the recession they created and the debt is Presidents Obama's fault?
Grow a brain cell, voting for a republican is like cutting your nose off to spite your face. Divide and conquer, you just don't know your next when they get done with us.
Voter suppression, taking away women's rights and taking food from the poor for more tax cuts for the rich are not things brought to you by a party interested in freedom. Looks like all you got was a bag of cowpies.
bigbenalask, most of the structural deficit was put in place under Bush. His policies account for much more (5x by some measures) of the long-term deficit projections as Obama's.
We have always been concerned about the deficit. Why do some people seem to think that it is something new?
Romney's view on education appears to be very narrow. I read that all five of his boys attended the same college, the one affiliated with his church. Isn't that a bit strange? I can't imagine that all five of his sons chose to attend the same college without some pressure from their father. Was he afraid his sons would learn something he didn't want them to learn? If I am wrong about this fact, someone let me know.
Sunset,
[without some pressure from their father]
Plus pressure from all their relatives, private high school friends, fellow church members and everyone they were permitted to be friends with.
I note that Romney's own children attended, first the Belmont Hill School for Boys, and, then, the Cranbrook School in Michigan. Both institutions tout their small teacher to student ratio in their websites. So at one point, Romney apparently thought that this was important to his family.
So what is new? Romney is always wrong, from let Detroit go bankrupt to Russia being our greatest enemy.
Romney wants the business approach to schools. Efficiency first, more in the classroom means less teachers.
When he was governor he cut public education and raised the cost of Colleges. In a good economy he went from 37th to 47th in job creation. What will he do with a bad?
Divide and conquer is the republican plan. Right now they have got a lot of dumb poor republicans willing to vote for them and when the republicans get done with crushing the poor's only defense the democrats and the unions, you are next.
With the republicans dog whistles they are creating the party of more hate than brains.
PROTECT THE RIGHT TO VOTE...VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT 2012
Setting a maximum number of students per class only helps the number of teachers & union members hired.
A "good" teacher can teach, a bad teacher looks for "reasons" their students did not do as well. My grade level had a larger number of students than all years before us, I remember every year on the first day at the beginning of class, the lessor teachers told us how difficult it will be to teach all of us. The good teachers said they had an opportunity to teach more minds.
Yes private schools can have an advantage with lower class size, but they must also "provide" better teachers or no one will "pay" for their service.
If a "business" can provide a "better" education, for less money, why can't a guaranteed funding public system do the same? Could it be ... unions???
With an education system run by educated people with BS, PHD, & Doctorates in education you think they would have it right by now.
Every year the only answer seems to be, they need more money to get it right. Money spent per student has no direct correlation to the IQ of the final product.
You need both money and quality teaching to do it best, and you know it.
And it is obvious that smaller class sizes give each individual more opportunites to learn. Unless the teacher is lecturing the whole time, which would not be quality education.
Spanky et al.
Teachers of elementary, middle and high schools have to tolerate other people's brats. Some deserve hazard pay because people can't discipline their kids and want the school do do it all for them.
Kids don't learn the same as adults. Where an adult can sit in a lecture with 500 in attendance kids can't. Children need smaller classes and more personal attention than adults do.
Cultures differ in the East and West. In China groups are more important than individuals so their thinking, practice almost everything they do is done in groups unlike us in the West where we value the individual who stands alone against the odds. So large classes in China makes sense they don't make sense here.
China is not as diverse as the US. Very few people from other countries go to study in China so CSL is not likely to happen there. ESL, however is important here because of the diverse population we have.
Art is proven to enhance test scores in reading, history and arts where music is useful in aiding math and science learning. Cutting these "extras" and concentrating only on academic classes is a great mistake to this and future generations. The arts, for example, is one of the things that separate a civilized society from barbarians.
In comparison to people with like educations, degrees, teachers are way underpaid. Teachers spend extra time preparing for classes, in partent conferences, at PTA meetings, taking more classes to stay up with the latest in the art of teaching.
If one can afford private schools, fine, but most of us can't afford private schools and must send our children to public school. When I attened public schools we, as a state and as a nation, had the best public education anywhere but today, due to lack of funding, schools are falling apart, teachers are quitting for better jobs, schools are forced to hire rookie or poor teachers because they can't afford the experienced teachers any more. Yes, many of the administrators are over paid, I'll agree there. Teachers are there in the trenches trying to make do with supplies they don't have or have to buy on their own because the district doesn't have money, like they did in my day, to buy pencils, paper, scissors, paste etc. that we needed in elementary school and our books were updated every 3 or so years. Today kids are using books well over 10 years old because books are expensive and there isn't money to buy them.
It may be beneficial to some greedy folks to not pay for public education but all it does is hurt our kids.
When a population is poorly educated freedom may be lost. Keeping the general population dumbed down is ideal for a totalitarian goverment because they haven't gotten information and don't know how to get it because they never learned that early in life due to poor education. That poor education because of lack of funding.
It seems the republicans plan is to dumb us all down enough to vote for them.
When that doesn't work, they do like in Florida, purge the voting roles of democrats and independents by 130,000 so far. Voter suppression of those who oppose you, how American.
They did this in 2000 but only about 7,000 people were disenfranchised that time with that number being 13 times the amount bush won Florida. Add to that the butterfly ballot that caused thousands to vote for the wrong candidate designed by a republican.
Now I understand when on live TV watching daddy bush and bush jr watching the election results when they announced Gore had won Florida and bush jr jumped up and angry said Gore could not have won Florida, THEY promised me Florida and then the screen went blank.
I wondered then, how could someone promise you a state and now we know.
Want to end democracy, then vote for a republican for anything.
I watched Colin Powell on Leno last night. He talked about how he went to school in New York - grade school through college - without it costing his family a penny. As he put it, New Yorkers realize that it was and is their responsibility to help educate all children and as a result we all benefit from it. (That clearly wasn't a quote since I don't remember the exact words.) Clearly this man and New Yorkers, have the right idea and realize how important a good education is to everyone.
Long tail, long trail, Willard the Rat.
Long tail, long trail. Willard the Rat.
The Wall Street Journal's Market Watch ran a report this week titled, "Obama spending binge never happened," which showed that federal spending is actually rising at the slowest pace since Dwight Eisenhower was president. But that hasn't stopped Romney and his Republican allies from using ridiculous and laughable terms -- like "spending inferno" -- to describe the President's fiscal management.
Another favorite Republican lie has been debunked. There are more to come. Mitt turns out lies extemporaneously (according to Huckabee, McCain, Santorum, Perry, and Gingrich)
I have been teaching for over 20 years and the facts are: classes keep getting bigger and class size does matter. I have to wonder about Harvard because as of now Mr. Romney has not made one intelligent, fact based, logical comment.
I did not read in the article that Romney said that class size didn't matter, only that it was not the most important factor. I'm sure if we had one teacher for each pupil that we would see better education results. Problem is we couldn't pay for that. Education, just like a number of other things provided by our state and federal governments will have to do the best job they can with the funding that is available. We can no longer afford to spend money we don't have.
public school educations around the country, especially in the inner cities, is terrible and it is not due to class sizes. Teachers unions have decreased the overall level of teacher abilities by strangling education boards ability to replace bad teachers. When I was in public schools, 1950s - 1960s, we routinely had a class of around 30, in every grade from 1 to senior in high school and the schools were good and the teachers were good. Now, a study may say if you had 7 or 8 students in a class you have a chance at better learning, true, but who can afford that. Oh, I know, those evil rich people we all want to tax for everything.
I have been in classes of 15 with a lousy teacher and learned little of nothing. I have set in an amphitheater with 160 and learned a lot. I would much rather have a great teacher with a large class size than a loser with small class size. Of course, with union rules they would both be paid the same, duh??? How stupid is that?
About as stupid as people in HIGH places getting paid 200 times what the least paid employee is making AND he gets BONUSES when he screws up? Of course, teachers dont make a lot considering they have 6 years of college to pay for. I guess you think like a republi-con though. Teachers can make minimum wage (which republi-cons dont support either), and STILL pay for all that college education (which republi-cons dont like either). Tell me...what DO republicans like? The only things I can think of is WAR, and tax cuts for the RICH, and BENEFIT cuts (if you cant cut the jobs out), for the middle class.
As a former school board member, there are basically two detriments to education that are correctable: the public service union-NEA; it serves no purpose but to protect burnout tenured teachers who should quit and move to a different less stressful job. The second is Dept of Education in Washington D.C.-Unfunded federal education mandates-one size fits all districts-ate up about 30% of our discretionary budget. All education and politics are local except for the Dept of Ed. It should be done away with day one of Romney Administration. That would be the greatest advancement of public education in the last 60 years.
shudder shudder