Nix the Fix Party, Speaker Boehner called the President's list a "gimmick". Boosting our economy and putting folks back to work is a gimmick?

Kind of like Boehner calling Education a "distraction from the economy" - when Education is the core issue in the future of US economy's prospects for growth and jobs. Even Exxon has been advertizing about prioritizing our teachers and Education lately.

It says a lot that we are NO longer suprised by another NO response from Republican leaders. And that is what they want from us - no expectations. GOP senior members and leades have loudly blocked our economic recovery since the President's Inauguration in 2009, when they met in the Caucus restaurant in WA and pledged to do so.

News from "The Ground":

Detroit — Amid a stretch of violence that was high even in one of the nation's most violent cities, Detroit Police joined state corrections officials, community groups and criminologists to launch a plan to quell home invasions in one west side neighborhood.

There have been eight homicides and 33 nonfatal shootings in Detroit over the past five days, and Detroit Police Chief Ralph Godbee acknowledged Tuesday that those numbers are higher than normal.

From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120523/METRO01/205230354#ixzz1vhAlf1oF

Dogs, Haircuts, crowd sizes, Gay marriage, contraception….blah , blah blah.

Detroit is turning into Beirut.

Where the hell is the outrage?

Some Republicans have accused the Obama administration of having shared secret information with the movie team in order to paint President Barack Obama in a flattering light in a film that was originally scheduled to come out before the November election. The film, now called "Zero Dark Thirty," has since been delayed to Dec. 19.

Looks like Barry is willing to expose secret CIA and Pentagon information on the planning and some of the methods used in the OBL raid to his Hollywood pals in the hope of getting some hype to help his re-election. As CiC, he should be ashamed of himself for whoring the Seal Team 6 operation for his personal political gain. There should be an independent prosecutor appointed to determine if Barry or any of his Admin broke any laws. And, if so, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, including impeachment, if the facts and circumstances warrant it.

Pentagon, CIA, White House opened up to Hollywood on bin Laden raid

By JOSH GERSTEIN |5/23/12 12:04 AM EDT

Just weeks after Pentagon and Central Intelligence Agency officials warned publicly of the dangers posed by leaks about the raid that killed Osama bin Laden, top officials at both agencies and at the White House granted Hollywood filmmakers unusual access to those involved in planning the raid and some of the methods they used to do it, newly released government records show.

At a briefing in July 2011, Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence Mike Vickers told filmmakers Michael Boal and Katherine Bigelow that the leaders of the the Special Operations Command couldn't speak to them for appearances' sake. However, Vickers said that the Pentagon would make available a Navy SEAL who was involved in planning the raid from its earliest stages.

"On the operators side, Adm. McRaven and Adm. Olson do not want to talk directly, because it's just a bad, their [sic] just concerned as commanders of the force and they're telling them all the time—don't you dare talk to anybody, that it's just a bad example if it gets out—even with all sorts of restrictions and everything," Vickers said, according to a transcript of the meeting released Friday to Judicial Watch. The conservative watchdog group filed a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit demanding the documents (posted here).

http://www.politico.com/blogs/under-the-radar/2012/05/pentagon-cia-white-house-opened-up-to-hollywood-on-124293.html

.

Of course economic pessimism is back, the EU is unstable as hell.

Not much Obama can do about that, that's why they call it a global economy.

It is hard for me to remember that most of the people out there are not political junkies like we are. They aren't as engaged in the election and haven't followed the details like we all do. And they won't really be engaged until after Labor Day. They wait for the conventions and the debates. Maybe they are smart----they don't ride the rollercoaster of events like we do.

That said, I don't see Mitt Romney wearing well with more exposure to the public. And I wonder about his tax returns---he has to disclose his 2011 return when it is filed. It is on extension until Oct. 15 but I can't believe he'll want to re-ignite that discussion then. Why do I think it will happen over the 4th of July holiday? Begs the question, of course, of the release of years prior to 2010 and why Mitt hasn't done that.

Bev, Time to move forward. Time for Congress to act for ordinary folks.

It's getting pricier to do business in places like China. Wages & shipping costs are rising over there. Meanwhile, companies located at home are becoming more competitive globally and more efficient. Time to bring the jobs back home.

Technology has led to jobs becoming obsolete, factories closing and well-paying middle class jobs shipped overseas. Why not make it easier for small businesses to hire and grow?

Estimates show that by refinancing under the President's plan, homeowners can save around $3,000 a year. We did not cause the housing collapse or this recession, so it ABSOLUTELY befalls congressionals to do whatever they can to help out. They have good salaries for life on our taxpayer dollar and amazing health care plans. Time Congress came through for US.

Take five minutes. Watch this little video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EW5IdwltaAc&feature=youtu.be

If you still think tax cuts are the only answer, or means testing for entitlements is off the table - run back into your burning house. Hammer your keyboard, sling your worthless crap, and burn baby, burn.

Hi David,

Eye opening!

Time to bring the jobs back home.

It's already happening. In tech, the high turnover in India locations is astounding. It's like we need to constantly have new recruits in the HR pipeline. This leads to inefficient productivity, because by the time they are brought up to speed they leave for another position.

So I see NBC didn't like the results of their Poll and added an "Oversample" of 300 Latino/Hispanic respondents that will be sympathetic to Obama.

A completely separate set of results that will surely favor Obama.

Just so they can get a headline that makes it look like things are going to be OK for team Blue.

Bad news for Team Blue. Things aren't OK.

Hey Ruken what the hell are you doing back here today?

I figured you would be in your basement looking for your SIGMA Cumma Laude Degree!

HAHAHAAHHAHAHAH

*pats Blue Collar Auto*

Of course when you live in a bullet-ridden shanty in Detroit, you need all the amusement you can get, can't you?

You and the unemployable JAS1 make a great pair.

I'll tell you a secret. When I went to see Romney speak at a rally in Portland a few months ago, I was half afraid I might like him. I mean, I am just as susceptible to wealth-worship as the next American. The guy's super rich, right? He must be smart. He was the governor of Massachusetts, and I live in Maine, so he will surely remind me of George Bush SR, another Northeast Republican, who is popular here, right?

No worries, I didn't like Romney. How is it a guy from Michigan, who owns a house in New Hampshire and was governor of MA, come across as a complete foreigner to an audience in Maine?

Not since Al Gore toured us after an ice storm have I felt so unrelated to by an American politician.

AND he didn't strike me as all that smart. The guy is a billionaire, how can he be so light in the head? It makes you re-think how the 1%'ers get so rich in this country. I really think it's not what you know but who you know, when one accumulates that much wealth. I've know immigrants to this country who have built fortunes and they all had these things in common: a)incredible smarts, b) incredible drive and 3) a touch of ruthlessness. BUt I also know wealthy Americans who did not have those attributes and they all a) came from well connected families b) graduated from elite schools and 3) joined established corporations which richly rewarded them. Romney seems to belong to the later category.

Michael 1969, you wrote:

"We're more shocked that your jealous-ass wasn't able to post first."

Are you campaigning to become the Psychology professional's poster boy for PROJECTION?

edit: latter category, not later :)

I amy live in a bullet-ridden Democrat controlled city, But I don't have to make up College Degrees to try to impress people on the internet like you do.

That's just really, really sad.

Whatever you say, you clearly know more about my life than I do. The slum-dweller is just jealous, now that's what is just really, really sad.

Protip: Maybe you should go off and actually try and better yourself instead of getting mad at text on the internet.

@David Walker

I watched the video.

If we have a debt crisis and we are not bringing in enough revenue why don't the republican tea party admitt we need more revenue not less. Let's say we cut 1.4 trillion dollars from social security, medicare, but used 400 billion to invest in the United States that would create jobs in turn increase revenue along with tax hikes for the rich and corporations who hide money over seas.That would put a halt to the soaring debt.

Then on top of all that.....

What if there was more people working in-turn paying taxes and thus increase our revenue that would also put a freeze on the soaring debt as you indicated.

You also take into effect the United States will keep the same revenue from 2012 thru 2022

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

Great!

Just what we need around here, another right wing nut who enjoys playing internet shrink!

LOL ....Awwww David Walker......I think I'll just regurgitate Feisty DumbFux's earlier thread!

He probably got it in Special Ed. Not teaching it, but being a fine student of it.

And make certain to keep that helmet on Ruken. It's there to protect you as well as others.

How's the job search going JAS1?

After all, you're clearly qualified to be holding positions of great importance, and not being confined to a life of solidarity at home.

And in a twist of irony, I do wear a helmet: when I bike to and from work every day. Isn't Minneapolis great?

Joe in Albany

I didn't hear that the Obama movie had been delayed until after the elections. Lefties must have done a poll and seen for themselves that the majority of Americans are sick and tired of the presidents boasting of "his' killing of Bin Laden. I think the movie would have hurt him right before the elections. Good to see the left waste money.

David Walker - Is that you???? You've changed. What would you think of ALL of the tax cuts returning to pre-Bush levels? I think that would be the way to handle the matter. It would add $trillions to the tax coffers instead of just $billions. And everyone would pay their fair share again.

Poor Ruken. Someone tightened his safety helmet a littttle bit too much. Your left eye seems to be bulging out a bit Ruk. And that's your "good" eye, correct? Do you think this will affect your job of bagging groceries?

Poor Ruken. Someone tightened his safety helmet a littttle bit too much. Your left eye seems to be bulging out a bit Ruk. And that's your "good" eye, correct? Do you think this will effect your job of bagging groceries?

Yea, I'm totally posting from a computer at my job of bagging groceries.

This is why you're confined to life at home and not allowed to have a job JAS1.

Backhouse--do you not understand basic economics? Start with the idea of refinancing for mortgage holders that are underwater. Where do you think that 3,000 per borrower comes from? The money tree? So you bail out borrowers who through no fault of their own have an underwater mortgage and you basically take that wealth transfer from the banks or owners of these mortgages. Who do you think owns the banks? You do. These large banks are owned by institutions which are primarily union pension plans and 401k plans. So in order to either retain the same value, the banks increase fees to the poor and middle class or they let their value decrease taking the wealth from the middle class. Do you not understand that its a wealth transfer and you take that same 3000 per person out of the hands of unions and middle class assets? Second, if you start that kind of bail out, why dont we bail out small business owners who through no fault of their own go under because of circumstances out of their control? Why do homeowners get a special bailout? What about parents with sick kids etc.

Your other Obama idea to increase taxes on US companies with Global operations. You really think that works? You think that by making it more expensive for Coca Cola or McDonalds to sell their products overseas you make them more competitive against foreign competition and that increases jobs? You think that if GM has to pay greater tax to sell its cars in Brazil or China that somehow they will hire more people in the US and manufacture in the US where the labor costs are even more expensive? You dont think Toyota or Kia are just going to be able to sell their cars cheaper and GM actually loses jobs? Its your kind of thinking that reflects on why Obama's naive lack of basic economic understanding is preventing this country from a full robust recovery. You guys just dont get it.

If and when the supreme court ends the insurance for healthcare mandate, that monkey will be off the president's back. Then, hopefully, the tea party will be asleep on it's porch on election day.

Feeding Pessimissm. What the media fails to note is that it is highly probable that the pessimism shown is not because of President Obama's policies but because of the legislation being passed at the state level and in local city governments which are crunched even further by state government policies. People see our Federal Congress in total gridlock and they see obstructionism and a failure of government to work together to solve our problems and according to polls, they put a greater share of blame for the gridlock on the GOPTP.

It also reflects the nonstop Romney and GOP verbiage that the sky is falling and it is all President Obama's fault. Where was Mitt Romney, Paul Ryan, Mitch McConnell, Eric Cantor's outrage at the massive debt in 2002-2008? Did we hear republicans even mention the debt and deficit spending? NO, we did not; we only heard their outrage after Inauguration Day January, 2009. Suddenly the deficit and debt were a huge crisis according to the GOP--apparently their outrage occurred during "a come to Jesus meeting" only AFTER President Obama was sworn into office. It was republican crickets prior to 2009.

So when we look at the right track/wrong track numbers, it is important that we recognize those numbers are not entirely a reflection on President Obama (or any president for that matter) but they also reflect what is going on at the state and local levels. The media views things from the beltway and rarely does it look beyond Washington. Right track/wrong track probably reflects what women think of the nationwide GOP war on women (yes, there is a GOP war on women). Right track/wrong track reflects far more than one position in government and it extends far beyond the boundaries of Washington DC.

LMAO JoannaSmith1! Well worth reposting!

Indeed. JAS1 is always good for a laugh.

By the way, what size are you Mike? 42?

Ruken, we told you yesterday that no one here believes you have a job.

I'm pretty sure when you put SIGMA Cumma Laude on your resume you got laughed out of any chances you may have had.

Get out of your parent's basement and get outside. I'm sure it's a beautiful day in Minnesota or wherever the hell you really live.

Then don't believe it. I really don't care.

The Blue Collar slum-dwelling keyboard warrior is mad. Hehehe.

LMAO JoannaSmith1! Well worth reposting!

Ruken, I thought you said you wore a helmet when you rode your bike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptOfWqYJhVM

Lets be safe out there, okay?

Does anyone really belive Obama when he tries to say Mitt Romney does not have the proper credentials to be president? What in the hell were his? By far the least experienced And vetted President ever Elected, thanks MSNBC ABC NBC PBS CBS HLN CNN.

People need to stop worrying so much about the presidential race and worry about the Karl Rove gang electing another do-nothing congress.

Ruken, I thought you said you wore a helmet when you rode your bike:

Lets be safe out there, okay?

That explains a lot. Is that why you're unable to get a job?

I really hope at least half of you do some real research and see that there are still THREE people in this race. Back to David's post waaaaay up there at the top in reference to politicians that won't answer the tough questions. Ron Paul will, and has, and continues to do so. Another thing he continues to do despite MSM telling you he's out completely? Rack up delegates for the GOP convention. There is a revolution going on in this country; pry yourselves away from American Idol long enough to read about it and it might surprise you.

Bill,

So let me get this straight - Mitt Romney states that he is better-qualified to be the POTUS because he is a businessman and knows how the economy works. ROMNEY makes his tenure at Bain Capital the main exhibit in his case for election. ROMNEY claims this proves he knows how to create jobs. ROMNEY touts the "100,00 jobs" created at Bain. ROMNEY trumpets the job-creating victories at Bain as proof he can do the same for America. (So what should we do, take Romney at his word? Just blindly believe his job-creating claims, and rush to elect him? )

Team Obama says not so fast, lets look at the facts. Team Obama accurately states that private equity firms are designed to create wealth for their stakeholders, and any jobs created are secondary benefits. They accurately state that there are winners and losers in this private equity game, and point out (factually) some losers. They also reiterate that the skills required to make one a succesful venture capitalist are different from those required to be a succesful POTUS - you have to think "macroeconomics" not "microeconomics". You have to build something for the long term, not turn a quick profit. You have to have a vision for the future and develop strategies to see things through, good times or bad. You can't just cut your losses and move on to the next company.

Romney used job gains after he left Bain Capital to make his case, arguing he set the foundation for those gains. Team Obama used plant closures and job losses after he left Bain Capital to make their point, agreeing that Romney's actions set the foundation for those results.

So what about this do you disagree with? Where is this so-called "War on Success" or "attack on capitalism"? I see someone calling Romney's bluff, telling the truth about Bain Capital and how it worked.

Nothing like the sound of babies crying and automatic gunfire to lull you to sleep. My dogs woke me up last night to wailing sirens and gunfire. Im looking into personal protection devices for My wife, my yorkies and my Koi. ( I had to makes sure people know they are not edible first).

TNSEVOL--No Obama is definitely not calling his bluff because no different than Romney more than likely overstating his role in the success of Bain investments, Obama's message clearly shows (as Mayor Booker pointed out) that he doesnt understand how private equity works and who is actually benefiting from private equity success. As Booker pointed out, the investors who benefit from these Bain investments are teacher and union pension plans. Why would Obama, besides an attempt at bad political pandering, want to hurt his constituents who are investing with Bain? Bain and Romney are only successful when they make money for their investors who are the unions in the first place. In the long run as this plays out, this will be a losing strategy for Obama as his own record of being a private equity investor is mixed at best. He certainly had limited success in GM but huge failures in green energy. Private equity is a good thing and as it gets understood by more people will only make Obama look bad so he was better off just ignoring Romney Bain success.

Backhouse,

Much of the plan has to do with tax cuts so is the claim now that tax cuts help grow jobs because all we have been hearing is where are the job creators?

I agree with you on lowering tax breaks for companies who bring jobs back but the loophole you are talking about is a part of corporate taxes that say you only pay U.S. tax when the profits are returned. Right now companies have no incentive to do this as they have much lower rates where the money is and they are just reinvesting it, so unless the whole tax code is going to be rewritten then it is a worthless comment.

JoAss1,

Can you guarantee that Mutt will get the needed delegates on the convention floor?

I cannot wait to watch that clusterphuck unravel.

David Walker, good post - too bad the message is LOST on all these posters! Blackhouse, it would be nice if Congress would pass even ONE of those 5 points, sadly our Congress is even more sniping and divided than the posters on NewsVine. It's our COUNTRY that is threatening to jump off a ledge, and people here are too busy sniping to notice. We're doomed.

Jody, great post,

Clearly the sky is not "falling", although GOP congressionals and Rove Crossroads would like Americans to believe it is.

4.25 million private sector jobs created in the last 26 months.

485,000 manufacturing jobs created since February 2010.

The DOW increased by 4500 points (56%) under President Obama. Fortune 500 companies are making off-the-charts record profits since this President was sworn in.

Time for GOP congressionals like Mike Lee (R-Utah) to quit their whopper-telling, obstruction, name-calling, complaining, and get something done administratively and legislatively on our behalf.

Left-wingers decry cutting entitlements.

When I read BS like that I ignore the poster for good. Welcome to ignore you partisan POS hack.

Its coming down to a simple question: who would you rather want running this country - someone who who has mercilessly taken and pi$$ed away BILLIONS in everyones tax payer dollars in venture capital investments with no return/bankruptcy (ie. solyndra, ener1, brightsource, etc.) or........ someone who has taken private dollars and made money?

The liberal media can spin and twist and claim hope for Obama but bottom line is this. Romney may not be the candidate some of us would have picked BUT ABO anybody but Obama in November. So knocking Romney will get them no where with educated people. He made money, good for him and his investors. He may have signed a health care bill similar to Obama's that the state legislature passed (NOT HIM PUSHING) and the states have that right, but he didn't try to turn Massachusetts into a little USSR. He knows how to make money and run businesses and most of the crap Obama is spreading around about BAIN happened two years after Romney was no longer associated with Bain. So save your finger crossing since there are so many athiest Obama supporters can't include praying and face it. He is gone in November. IF he tries any executive order bull crap it will be a race to see who gets to an emergency SCOTUS hearing first.

ABO ABO ABO

Much of the plan has to do with tax cuts so is the claim now that tax cuts help grow jobs because all we have been hearing is where are the job creators?

The job creators are the middle class, as they are the primary drivers of consumption. The middle class has been shrinking, so consumption is going down. This leads to decreased demand, therefore less jobs, etc.

The way to increase demand, consumption, and therefore jobs is to institute policies that create a strong middle class.

Thank god Romney will be able to straighten out this whole Greek and Eurozone mess!

He just needs to tell them what to do or else! That will make them stand up and take notice, apologize to us profusely and buy the stuff we want to export to them!

The GOP has it all under control!!!!!!

Yep. That's it! I'm sure. Aren't you?

Backhouse

I have to wonder why you chose that particular moniker for posting. It is interestingly fitting. I read these pie in the sky, say it isn't so every day and it's even gone past pathetic to chuckly. Face it, in November the march toward Socialism stops. ABO

Of course when you live in a bullet-ridden shanty in Detroit, you need all the amusement you can get, can't you?

Hey now, don't knock the bullet ridden, shanty in Detroit, until you've tried it. It's quite exciting. Ahh, Motown, where the weak are killed and eaten! Lol.

Yo TNSEVOL, got news for you... ALL businesses are created to make wealth for their investors/owners... that's how capitalism works... they add value to raw materials and provide goods and services that consumers want TO MAKE A PROFIT... not to be altruistic to a bunch of lazy deadbeats... if Obozo knew that, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in....

@Ruken --- Your brain departed your body early on and was last seen trickling down the rear leg of a French Poodle.

Mmkay.

Apparently the armed forces are so desperate for recruits they'll take anyone these days.

Someone on here quoted Alec Baldwin on here ROFLMAO!!!!! That's all I have to say about that.

Kirk, have you seen these pension plans lately? They've been pillaged by companies like Bain capital. What used to be strong benefit programs are a shell of what they once were and most of the capital gains have went to the top 5 percent of the nation. I don't see the the 100's of millions of dollars in consulting and managing fees trickling down to teachers and unions. What I do see is a company that made a killing off of ripping up these benefits to shave money off the bottom line. Don't pretend like venture capital is this knight in shining armor working for the common good. They are excellent at making money for rich people, they are awful at promoting a healthy middle class.

When we have a legislative branch that lies for convenience, a congress that does little or nothing, a judicial branch that plays politics, a business climate that will sell us out for a buck and a news media that manipulates numbers to the whims and fantasies of their political affiliates it's no wonder people are pessimistic.

Bill, Fairfax VA

Romney and Bain Capital

The trash talk from the left on this issue – to borrow a term from Mayor Booker – is nauseating.

Romney will not talk about his record as the Governor of Massachusetts (obvious reasons), and now talking about his record at Bain is off the table. What the hell does Romney have left?

BTW, why is Bain such a taboo for you people. Are you embarassed of it? There is only one reason why someone does not to talk about something - it's not good.

Are you embarassed what Romney did to companies like Ampad?

geo1957883: Interesting that you list all the networks that climbed on board for the President early on in the 2008 campaign. As soon as I read it I said you must have seen this cartoon:

http://www.arcamax.com/thefunnies/mallardfillmore/s-1143871

Sarah, my favorite Democrat! You healed from the wreck?

You a Motown babe?

David,

Great post in 1.1!

The thing I would like to see more than anything else is to see people actually listening to alternative viewpoints. I would like to be able to convince people, that just because someone has a different opinion on how to solve a problem, doesn't mean they don't care about the problem. Dems do not want everyone to become dependent on the government and Reps do actually care about others. They just have significantly different world views - and therefore, significantly different approaches to solving problems.

Most Americans don't trust in Obamanomic , we are going in the wrong direction, this is because we elect a President the never run a business not even a Lemonade Stand. His ideology against capitalism and in favor of chrony capitalism, giving millions of dollars to companies like Solyndra, show that Obama can't run with his record. Leftist criticize Romney about Bean Capital, a company that risk their own money , not taxpayer money to savage companies going in bankruptcy, companies that could go well like Office Depot and others with almost no chance to survive. Obama by the other hand did the same with GM, in favor of the Unions, but GM still owe 23 billions and thousand of people from dealerships and assembly lines went out of work, Obama sent them home, Pontiac close, Saturn close , so where is the outrage from the left about all the families that are now poor thanks to Obama.

When you go to work and they offer a 401K savings account to for your retirement you are putting your money in the market in hopes to make gains for your future. Now when you look at if your 401K went up or down do you think I'm ok with it going down as long as the Companies I'm invested in didn't do any layoffs or downsizing? Bain Capital is like every other company in this country, it is for profit. Taking businesses that were crap before Bain came along and restructuring them so that they make money is nothing to be ashamed of, but it is hard to explain. Ask some older investor who put some of his nest egg into Bain Capital if he was happy with the results of making a lot of money.

BigATC,

I'm totally healed. In fact, this past Saturday, I did a 51 mile bike ride from the Zoo bar in Boyne to Mackinaw Island. I'm quite proud if I do say so, myself.

And yes, I'm one of the few people left in Detroit. Don't let Clint Eastwood's commerical fool you. We're doing better, but it's more like "The end of the first quarter" as opposed to "Half-time".

this is because we elect a President the never run a business not even a Lemonade

A nation is not a business. The goal of being POTUS isn't to make a profit for shareholders or investors. It's to serve the needs of ALL citizens, create and enforce public policy that's just and allows everyone opportunity, conduct diplomatic missions, keep the nation safe, move us forward, yada, yada, yada.

Too many people on this vine mistake economic philosophy (i.e. Capitalism) for governance. They are not the same.

Matt--that isnt how it works and Bain hasnt pillaged any Union pension funds. I have seen them and they are underfunded for a variety of reasons the largest of which is democratic legislators made promises greater than the revenue that was coming in and allowed the funds to account for such shortfalls in a non Generally Accepted Accouting principles manner. The second it the investment performance in the funds fell short of the investment assumptions. Bain actually helped the union pension funds because they were investors in Bains private equity funds so they made money on the companies they invested in.

I never said private equity--sorry but these arent vulture funds--worked for the common good. Yes they work very well to make the smart investment managers money but they also made lots of money for union pension funds and 401k accounts which is you. It really is no different than the local immigrant who borrows money from his parents to buy the local dunkin donuts that is losing money. The new owner brings in his new employees and tries to turn it around. If successful, the new owner pays his dad back with healthy profits and makes money on his own. If not successful, then all the employees jobs are lost and the investment money is gone. Bain is just a much larger example of that.

Good luck up there in Detroit from your neighbor, one of those Hoosiers :-) Congrats on the bike ride, thats a long way! You should be proud.

Good Presidents need to be strong leaders and surround themselves with good people strong in certain areas of expertise, and rely on them. You can't tell how a person will do unfortunately until they are in there. Being a govenor is probably the best training, but doesn't really guarentee anything.

If Obama had a record to run on, he would. People are waking up to the fact that we have had 3.5 years of failure with Obama. Chicago style street thug politics has not worked for Obama in Washington, and his inability to lead the nation is more then evident. All Obama has done for 3.5 years to blame everyone else for failing. Obama has played the race card, class warfare, a war on women, and partisan politics. Obama loves the perks and benefits of the job and he is set for life because of it, but when you outsource your president to the likes of Reid and Pelosi your failure is your fault.

Beverly in Chicago...

Harold Ford is a bad joke, always has been. So is his entire family, some of whom are in prison now. It wouldn't surprise me to see him as a roomie with Jefferson someday. It was painful in Tennesse in 06 to choose between him and Bob Corker. Disgraceful. This is a choice?Shoot one and deport the other.

Hoosier??? You know how they got that name, right? When the "injuns" would knock on their doors during dinner, they'd have a mouthful of corn and scream, "Hoosier".

Good Presidents need to be strong leaders and surround themselves with good people strong in certain areas of expertise, and rely on them.

Good point. I'm a huge Steve Ratner fan.

I did a 51 mile bike ride from the Zoo bar in Boyne to Mackinaw Island. I'm quite proud if I do say so, myself.

@Sarah: If you like biking you should look into RAGBRAI.

We like to look at Romney's record at Bain, but what about Obama's record?

Well since he never ran a business we need to look at his "Community Organizing" record. How are those communities doing after Obama and his organizing?

Obama should take a couple of thousand mile permanent bike ride out of the U.S. ....

Ruken,

I no longer like biking, lol. Just kidding, but it was something I did on a whim, just to see if I could finish it.

Joe in Albany

Some Republicans have accused the Obama administration of having shared secret information with the movie team in order to paint President Barack Obama in a flattering light in a film that was originally scheduled to come out before the November election. The film, now called "Zero Dark Thirty," has since been delayed to Dec. 19.

Looks like Barry is willing to expose secret CIA and Pentagon information on the planning and some of the methods used in the OBL raid to his Hollywood pals in the hope of getting some hype to help his re-election. As CiC, he should be ashamed of himself for whoring the Seal Team 6 operation for his personal political gain. There should be an independent prosecutor appointed to determine if Barry or any of his Admin broke any laws. And, if so, they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law, including impeachment, if the facts and circumstances warrant it.

Joe, in case you didn't know, everything is classified under the President's authority, and that he also had the authority to de-classify or show classified material to anyone he wants. so NO the President didn't break any laws.

Ruken,

I no longer like biking, lol.

sadface.jpg

Bill in Fairfax: thanks once more for your well-written and focused commentary. You are a breath of intelligent fresh air..

Private equity is a good thing and as it gets understood by more people

Ah, more wisdom from the all mighty trying to get all us idiots to just understand one iota how important vulture capitalism is, the absolute importance to our future financial security, and why a vulture capitalist president must win this election.

Let's bring this home a bit shall we .. and play the vulture capitalism game within the game of life. If you buy a home, and pay the mortgage down by 2/3, you are in very good shape, most would say. Suddenly, an illness hits and you can't make that monthly payment. In the vulture capitalist world, the vultures would circle, descend and take the house when the first payment was missed, pocket the 2/3 of equity paid, sell the house at market value, and pocket 100% of those proceeds, and leave the 1/3 unpaid loan on the mortgage holder take to the loss.

Wow, what a bonanza for the investors of the vulture capital firm. The losers are the mortgage company and the homeowner. By the way, the homeowner dies because in a vulture capitalist world, insurance doesn't exist - but I digress on another social ill.

So folks, Kirk is right, vulture capitalism is a highly profitable business for investors. The thousands of investors can be happy that they earned one big giant copper penny on a catastrophic event at the expense of the homeowner and mortgage holder. The question for everyone is, as we get to understand the upside of vulture capitalism, do we want to side with the unethical Romney approach to making a penny, or do we take the ethical high road, and find a way to allow the ill homeowner to keep the home, recover, and in the end, pay off the other 1/3rd of the mortgage? Romney and Kirk say bleed them dry and stuff my portfolio with shiny pennies. Obama says, keep the penny, and asks what can we do to help.

Romney was used to be polling higher than Obama on the economy issue, now they are tied in the polls. Either Romney is looking worse on his strongest argument, Obama is looking better, or a combination of both.

@Amy B. Portland, ME

Most people who become filthy rich do so because they are willing to do whatever it takes to acquire wealth and are willing to sacrifice anything to do it, especially scruples and ethics, and frequently even close relationships. It has less to do with intelligence and more to do with being willing to sell your soul to the devil.

Logic -- Here's some news for you. Obama is well qualified for his position. Get use to it.

Fairfax Bill, way to spin baby spin! Jody: good thoughtful post.

A nation is not a business.

It is not, but a person with business background knows about the importance to maintain their business sane, and not to spend the money they don't have because it will bring their business to collapse. Obama don't care about that, he knows that the Fed will print more money and use our monetary system our currency in is favor regardless the dameges to other poor coutries who have their reserve in dollars, he knows he can turn in other countries to borrow more money, he don't know about the consequences to add 5 trillions of debt to our economy. Government is not a business but when he put his ideology over the basic of the economy we have consequences. Our real unemployment is over 14 % and our economy is not growing.

Fed Up-2683606

Yo TNSEVOL, got news for you... ALL businesses are created to make wealth for their investors/owners... that's how capitalism works... they add value to raw materials and provide goods and services that consumers want TO MAKE A PROFIT... not to be altruistic to a bunch of lazy deadbeats... if Obozo knew that, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in....

Did you even read my post? I believe that is exactly what I said, that Bain Capital was created to make wealth for their stakeholders and that it was very succesful.

My point is (if you bothered to read) Romney is trying to say it was a job-creating machine and it truly wasn't. Capitalism has winners and losers - you can't take credit for the winners and ignore the losers.

Reddev--first of all lets use your example and lets explain how it really works. First, vulture capital is totally different from private equity or even hedge funds so my guess you dont really understand. Second, you dont seem to understand who invests so lets take a well know example and call it Blackstone. Blackstone has a variety of different funds for different purposes all being private equity funds. Some invest in distress operating companies, some invest in real estate and some invest in start up ventures. All of these funds get their money from institutions the largest of which are union pension plans.

So in your example, the homeowner misses a payment and you very well know that the mortgage is owned by a bank or fund of mortgages run by a servicing company. You also know that you have to miss a ton of payments before foreclosure process gets started. Here in Illinois, the homeowner can sit in the home and not make any payments for 2 years before the house gets foreclosed on. But lets say Blackstone has a real estate fund and they buy distressed mortgages. In your example, Blackstone would buy the mortgage and lets say they foreclose after the missed payments. A foreclosure is treated as a sale for the amount of the mortgage and if the house is sold for greater than the mortgage, the additional equity reverts back to the homeowner. So your example cant happen in real life and Blackstone could never sell it at its original value without giving the equity back to the homeowner.

I never said private equity is not a profit making venture and that it is a charity but I thought the discussion of Romney was not his charitable ventures but business success. So its whether he was a savvy investor using pension money to make money for pension funds right?

If you dont know what you are talking about then dont enter into the discussion. Its wastes everyones time and energy. I dont care whether you respect private equity or vote for Obama because he doesnt believe in private enterprise and feels we should all be working for the common good. Thats fine but those of us who feel that private enterprise and capitalism is actually good and creates more jobs and wealth for everyone might feel differently. There is nothing wrong with having two different views lets just make sure we are working off the right set of facts on how private equity works.

Logic -- Here's some news for you. Obama is well qualified for his position. Get use to it.

I love people like you, I never said he wasn't qualified, all I did was ask a question on the communities he "organized". You of course don't try to answer such questions just ell me to "get use to it". Well if you mean get use to 8% plus unemployment, a climbing national debt that will leave us in worse shape then Greece, and of course a new health care system so complicated no one seems to understand it or how it will work, but we do know is cost continue to rise and people are still not covered. If these are the things you would like me to "get use to", I think I'll pass.

Venture capitalism is a big part of business growth. A lot of companies started with it ...Google for one. Bain had a part in Home Depot, Staples and Dominos. This is the only source for a lot of start ups and businesses on the edge of going under that banks and conventional financing won't do. There will also be failures as thats part of business.

Obama had his Presidential term, formed a committee, Bowles-Simpson, did not like what they recommended, ignored their recommendations, tried to "repair" the economy with his ideas, crooks, and failed.

The People of the US, REJECTED Obamanomics in the 2010 election, electing many to the House from the TEA PARTY to STOP OBAMA'S POLICIES!

It will be a interesting election, but the problem is, neither political party wants to address the fiscal answers necessary to put America on a proper fiscal course again!

It is still CONGRESS who presents and passes the laws, at, under the guidance and recommendation of the leadership of the President.

Leadership is something that is lacking under Obama, division and conflict is more like the proper wording for the Obama Administration.

It is not, but a person with business background knows about the importance to maintain their business sane, and not to spend the money they don't have because it will bring their business to collapse. Obama don't care about that, he knows that the Fed will print more money and use our monetary system our currency in is favor regardless the dameges to other poor coutries who have their reserve in dollars, he knows he can turn in other countries to borrow more money, he don't know about the consequences to add 5 trillions of debt to our economy. Government is not a business but when he put his ideology over the basic of the economy we have consequences. Our real unemployment is over 14 % and our economy is not growing.

And you really think this is all as simple as "It's Obama's fault"? There is no magical POTUS wand that can be waved, in either direction.

It is not, but a person with business background knows about the importance to maintain their business sane, and not to spend the money they don't have because it will bring their business to collapse.

That's true, but last I checked, business also need to bring in REVENUES and, INVESTORS, you know, people who poor money into them looking for long term gains?

Why don't you ask Romney if he could run a business without anyone investing money into it? And then ask him why he thinks a country can be run without bringing any money in.

5 trillions of debt to our economy.

You wanna know what would change that, ending the wars, raising taxes, and reforming entitlement programs. ALL three of which Romney has promised not to do.

So you tell me, how does lowering taxes, maintaining (if not adding) wars, and ignoring healthcare/entitlements help our economy and debt?

Our real unemployment is over 14 % and our economy is not growing.

Look at trade reform for that issue. Also, you might wanna look at what's been going on at the state level. There's only one way for a POTUS to create jobs and that STIMULIS/SPENDING, so you bit** when Obama does that, and then bit** about the unemployment rates. Like I said there is no magic wand.

And don't give me that de-regulation, trickle down crap. We've had that for ten years, look around you, were at the threshold of economic hell.

redvirginia

It is not, but a person with business background knows about the importance to maintain their business sane, and not to spend the money they don't have because it will bring their business to collapse.

you mean like what Bain did to Ampad? Bain increased Ampad's debt from $11 million to $400 million in a few short years and left the corpse with the only option: bankruptcy.

While Ampad could no longer cover interest on the debt created by Bain, Bain made money - lots and lots of money.

Kirk-2957282

vulture capital is totally different from private equity or even hedge funds so my guess you dont really understand.

volture capital is like a loan shark. It's not about taking a company in need and fixing it. It's taking a desperate company and sucking the blood out of it to make a profit.

Yes, this is totally legal but for crying out loud own up to it. This is who Romney is and this is how he made his money but he should grow some balls and own up to it!

Logic -- Your question is silly. Unemployment will remain elevated as long as Congress continues to obstruct any reasonable plan of action. The debt will be addressed when we quit subtracting revenue through tax cuts and get a consensus on a reasonable course of action to cut spending. Health care costs have been out of control for the past decade, it's the free market at work. It sounds as though you prefer austerity, which will destroy this country. Perhaps that's the goal of people like you.

"Economic gloom"...oh no!! I better read the article then. Seriously, everyone here is a media slave. Go outside. Life is good. We are so fortunate to be born in the day in age we were. We are so fortunate to have what we have. Go ahead and be gloomy if you want, but it's just what your slave masters want.

BigATC

Venture capitalism is a big part of business growth. A lot of companies started with it ...Google for one. Bain had a part in Home Depot, Staples and Dominos.

the problem is that you are confusing venture with volture.

22% of companies either filed for bankruptcy reorganization or closed their doors sometimes with substantial job losses. Bain also hid its profits in tax havens, not even paying the rate it was supposed to on the profits it made laying off workers.

I'm glad we have Democrats that can speak their minds without fear to be attacked for radicals in their party......?

Booker Democrat NJ. Major said on Sunday's "Meet The Press."I have to just say from a very personal level, I'm not about to sit here and indict private equity,"

The ad also uses similar comments from former Democratic Congressman Harold Ford Jr. on Monday's "Morning Joe" to rebut the Obama campaign's attack on Romney.

"Private equity is not a bad thing," Ford said. "As a matter of fact, private equity is a good thing in many, many instances."

Steven Rattner, the Obama administration's former "car czar," also gets a cameo.

"I don't think there is anything Bain Capital did that they need to be embarrassed about," Rattner said.

Bayllie--there is nothing to own up to as you dont really want to listen or understand how private equity works. Of course it is investing pension fund money into companies for profit. Thats the whole point. When Obama had the government invest in GM to help it survive, their were substantial job losses over 50,000 less jobs at GM then at the time it was in bankruptcy. But now its profitable and it saved the jobs of those still working. Was that bad or good? Bain did the same thing for other companies and many times it didnt work and those jobs were lost. Your tax haven statement makes no sense. Are you saying Bain did something illegal?

Logic -- Your question is silly. So we can question Romney and the work he did at Bain, but asking about Obama's Community Organizing is silly? Well I guess Romney should of done more Community Organizing, it doesn't matter if your successful at all, just the fact you did it makes it ok.

Unemployment will remain elevated as long as Congress continues to obstruct any reasonable plan of action. Now is this the Congress that was ran completely by Democrats for the first two years of Obama's term, or the congress that has a Democrat lead Senate and a Republican lead House? What is your idea of "reasonable"? Would passing a BUDGET sometime in the last 3+ years be reasonable?

'The debt will be addressed when we quit subtracting revenue through tax cuts and get a consensus on a reasonable course of action to cut spending. Raising taxes will give enough money to fund one month of spending. You just don't get it, after raising taxes people and business will tighten and that magic revenue boost will never materialize. We are also past the point of reasonable cuts and taxes, we have driven so far down it would take huge cuts to make any of this sustainable.

Health care costs have been out of control for the past decade, it's the free market at work. No free market in Health Care for decades. The industry is very heavly regulated by the government. Try calling an insurance company and buying a catastrophic coverage health plan, meaning you will pay for all small check up cost but if something over $10,000 happens they will pick up the tap. Guess what it doesn't excist, they are not allowed to offer such coverage.

It sounds as though you prefer austerity, which will destroy this country. Perhaps that's the goal of people like you. Austerity is coming to this country no matter what buddy boy, you can't borrow for ever and you can't have an unlimited amount of debt, this country is ignoring the problems and every day they ignore it, the worse off things will be when it comes time to fix it. All those government programs they have promised are underfunded and no amount of tax increases are going to fix the problem. The free ride is coming to an end, Greece style hardships are around the corner because of you and others like you who have promised the people things that can't be afforded. Democrats have made promises to people in order to get votes knowing that these hand outs will break the system and you think it is people like me who want to destroy this country?

Why is the Flip Flop Mitt parking most of his cash in overseas accounts ?

Kirk-2957282

Bayllie--there is nothing to own up to as you dont really want to listen or understand how private equity works.

well, why is Romney fighting talking about Bain? Why not say yes, Bain made $100 million while Ampad had to file for bankruptcy?

Of course it is investing pension fund money into companies for profit. Thats the whole point.

No, in this case we are not talking about investing pensions. We are talking about taking a company, using it like a prostitute and then dumping it after making all the money.

When a company goes bankrupt they have two choices: they can reorganize or they can liquidate. The pension plan is usually terminated in reorganization and always terminated in liquidation. Sometimes pensions are insured and sometimes they are not.

When Obama had the government invest in GM to help it survive, their were substantial job losses over 50,000 less jobs at GM then at the time it was in bankruptcy.

yes, this was called a bailout - not volture capital.

Bain did the same thing for other companies and many times it didnt work and those jobs were lost. Your tax haven statement makes no sense. Are you saying Bain did something illegal?

did I say Bain did anything illegal? Nonetheless, this is one example of how two thirds of companies in this country do not pay any taxes. This is why wealthy individuals/corporations "MOVE" to Cayman Islands.

The statement makes total sense: Romney is a hypocrite. Not only he keeps his personal money in off shore accounts, he did the same with Bain. While he enjoys the freedoms this country provides, he hides like a coward from taking care of it in return.

Why do you thing Romney and the Repubs want to protect tax havens at all costs?

Woohoo, look at 'em go, over 100 posts on just the first reply and it isn't even 9:30am yet - I see a slight lull, must be lunch time on the East Coast.

Have I mentioned I love Chaos? You see, it's business as usual for us poo folk, once you reach our status, you can't be bothered with petty bickering. Must be nice to have it so good that you can afford to bother with this stuff, but for us at the bottom, just getting to the next day is all that matters.

The only thing that gave people like me any hope, was the equity in our homes, mine has devalued at three times the rate that people living in $300K homes has. I'm not sure how you well off SOB's did it, kept the value of your homes at what the were before the bubble, while those of us who have homes that were $120K before the bubble, are now valued at $80K. Yep, other than lower city taxes, you made sure we never get our chance to gradually climb the ladder.

Don't even give me "it's the lefts/rights fault" - I'll have to have rover sic balls on you if you try that excuse. What a luxury it must be to be able to point fingers, I guess when you're not using your fingers to text on your $500 phone, you have to do something with them. Well, enjoy your $20 lunch, may you choke on the olive in your martini, I'll be having leftover $3 frozen pizza for lunch, splurging from the usual 99 cent smoky dog ;)

PS; I stopped reading after post 5, broken records never did sound good, even in the mono days.

redvirginia -- Here is what Rattner thinks:

Under Mr. Romney’s leadership, Bain Capital engaged in the less attractive practice of putting more debt on seemingly successful investments in order to take dividends out. In at least four instances of Bain Capital investments during Romney’s tenure, these “recapped” companies, of which two were featured in the Obama ads, subsequently went bankrupt, costing thousands their jobs.

Here is a link to the entire op-ed piece he penned for the NYT on Tuesday, May 22, 2012

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/23/opinion/creating-jobs-wasnt-romneys-job.html

I guess we'll have to put up with Obama popping out and telling the country once again the economy is in great shape and "We're working hard every day to improve the jobs situation". Same song and dance as we've been hearing from this goof for 3.5 years now. At some point it gets to be a joke, and that probably happened 1.5 years ago. People/voters are getting tired of the 'all talk, no walk Obama'. Results Barry. How about some? Or do we have to wait for Romney to take your job before that happens?

lets just make sure we are working off the right set of facts on how private equity works.

Aw shucks little clueless Kirky. Private equity works by getting a group of investors together and investing in companies that need funding to get off the ground, or by providing capital to existing firms that want to expand. Vulture capitalism works taking over healthy and unhealthy companies and subsequently looting and raiding the assets. You might want to take a few weeks off and let those brain cells of yours contemplate the difference. Any way you look at it, Bain is a vulture capitalist firm disguised as a private equity firm. And apparently that disguise works, as you and your ilk have fallen for it hook, line, and sinker.

It's going to take years to fix the mess "W" got us into, "W" destroyed this Nation !

Results Barry. How about some?

Nothing chic about this chick, who is really just another polly-wanna-cracker parrot spewing right wing zero value talking points. Barry has produced, his list of accomplishments have posted on this site numerous times. Hate to tell you, but Chic in your moniker does not equate to classy or hip. Based upon the content of your post, flea bag might work better.

Logic -- Your first two rants are simply regurgitated fodder.

On Debt, are you suggesting we do nothing? You have to start somewhere.

There is a difference between health care costs and insurance they are not one and the same.

Austerity is a radical solution. Yes, we have to address our fiscal situation, but we have to use our brains and do it in a way that is least harmful. Austerity would do the opposite.

The rest of your post is gibberish.

Greece will get greased. Romney will be soundly beaten. Republicans will continue producing, and tending their piles, designed to serve only the most selected blow flies, and hoping for fertile bloom distribution, absent tell-tale odors.

....economic gloom returns....

Uh, when did it ever go away?

Sarah

It's to serve the needs of ALL citizens,

That is incorrect and a very debilitating destructive interpretation.

Bayllie and Reddev--see even when both of you guys try to describe it, you still dont understand. Reddev, they get a group of investors--those investors are union pension plans what part of that dont you get. So when Calpers or your local teachers union has a pension plan it invests such plan assets with private equity firms like Bain. Vulture funds dont take any healthy companies and loot and raid. Vulture funds are those funds who invest in extremely risky companies that are are so underwater, insolvent or bankrupt and attempt to buy it at such distressed values they can turn them around or liquidate them for a profit. Totally oppposite of what Bain does. For example, Blackstone owns Hilton. Are they vultures? Is Hilton somehow being raided and looted to your detriment? What about Burger King or Rock Bottom or most of the shopping malls in this country? Your naive unintelligible understanding of private equity is why you have no credibility.

Bayllie, why focus on Ampad? In any private equity fund there are just as many losers as winners so Bain made $100 million for its investors so you think it was a bad thing that union pension funds made $100 million because Bain was a savvy investor? I have no idea what rant you were trying to get out regarding bankrupcty law and liquidations but there generally arent many winners not surprising when a company is insolvent. Lets look at the totality of his investment success not just one investment. You also know that whether a corporation pays tax has nothing to do with moving offshore and you probably should do some research. Having an offshore bank account doesnt shield Romney from paying tax on the interest as he still has to pay tax on his worldwide income same as US corporations but you are correct that if a US corporations moves its headquarters offshore they have to pay tax in the new country and US tax only on the earnings in the US. You realize that Obama's economic tax proposals just make this problem worse and more companies will move. Before posting this stuff do some research so you can understand tax rules and why companies and individuals do business in foreign countries. You might be surprised and learn something.

Yeah, A lot of US are mad at Prez O, he let the $4.00+Gas and oil go by without a nod. AND that shaking hands with karzai of afghan after what he said????? "thanks sucker taxpayers..." NONEtheless has anybody got an idea what republicanCrimeCartelSoldierRommel will do to US and ANY economic progress made?? He will GUT US LIKE A FLAPPIN' FISH ON THE DOCK.....You're gonna' see Unemployment up to 30% and NO Social Security..Gotta Pay for New Wars!!!

Here’s the rundown on Mitt Romney’s devastating record as CEO of Bain Capital, a tenure marked by bankruptcies, bailouts, and mass layoffs — all while Romney and his partners raked in Billions of Dollars in profits for the firm and Romney himself amassed a Quarter-Billion Dollar Fortune.
Romney’s Bain Capital Caused Mass Layoffs, Sent Jobs Overseas
Thousands of Americans were laid off by Bain Capital at companies it purchased, managed, and, at least a quarter of the time, drove into bankruptcy, ruining Lives, Destroying Careers and Families including Many Many Suicides While stuffing his pockets, Keeping his Darling son OUT of service to his country with the line "My son is Fulfilling his Patriotic Duty by helping me get elected"...Got that one?? and, Of Course, installing the InHouse car elevator for his "darling little boy's $180,000Ferrari....Listen Up People...This guy IS Count Dracula In carnate

Austerity is a radical solution. Yes, we have to address our fiscal situation, but we have to use our brains and do it in a way that is least harmful. Austerity would do the opposite.

In economics austerity refers to a policy of deficit-cutting by lowering spending often via a reduction in the amount of benefits and public services provided. Austerity policies are often used by governments to try to reduce their deficit spending and are sometimes coupled with increases in taxes to demonstrate long-term fiscal solvency to creditors.

Wow, that does sound radical, imagine public sector employees having to have the same pay and benefits as us common private sector workers. SCARY! I mean spending less and raising taxes to reduce debt is just crazy talk.

Now if we can just take more money from those who earn it I'm sure they will continue to work just as hard and the economy wouldn't suffer at all. It's not that I wouldn't support the rich paying higher taxes I just think it can be done by re-writing the tax code so there are not so many loopholes for Democrat and Republican cronies to jump through. And when it comes to cutting, there is no easy pain free solution, but if done soon it will be better then the future alternative.

Well, well, well seems that david walker (post 1.1) is finally beginning to see the bigger picture, or perhaps he just finished reading dale carnegies book on "how to win friends and influence people".

Regardless, he is sounding more like former US senator simpson (of bolles-simpson fame) in pointing out that both sides have something to lose.

Interesting that many of the analysts and economists interviewed on bloombergTV have pointed this out long before todays CBO warning. Nice to know also that bloombergTV leaves 99% of the political rhetorical bias behind. I may still not understand the bond and currency market, but I do have a far greater understanding of global and domestic economics and business than I ever had last week, last month, last year.

Hats off to you mr walker for a post minus the mindless political drivel of many of your past posts.

DB,

This one takes the cake.

First, um, you posted the section of the Constitution that applies to congress and the Legislative Branch, after quoting what I said the duties of the POTUS are. Yeah, the POTUS is part of the Executive Branch.

Wrong branch, buddy.

The constitution was written with specific examples of what they meant by provide for defense and what they meant by providing for the defense and general welfare.

The Constitution is an INTERPRETED document, and has been since it's very beginning.

The Constitution in no way meant for providing for all people. As a parent, you have to make choices as to what you do and don't do for a child. If you provided everything, your kid would be spoiled rotten and you would be bankrupt.

Strawman. This isn't about homes or children, try to stay on topic. So, we amended the Constitution to include a little something called the 14th Amendment, which ensured that, actually, yes, it applies to everyone and that yes, everyone, as I said, is entitled to EQUAL OPPORTUNITY. Duh. Also, see the General Welfare Clause and the Necessary and Proper Clause.

Our government is bankrupt from this unwise provide for all people concept, when the only thing we are supposed to be guaranteed is the pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness.

Now, you're not even quoting the right document. That's the Declaration of Independance. Also, that "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" that IS equal opportunity.

Today instead of promoting things like science, we promote an opinion of science - do you not realize how dangerous that is? That means that one person or a collective few determine what we will know. That is no different than being under the King of England in the 1770's brought to us by our own people?

The only people who have anything against science are those who's beliefs and preconceived notions, science doesn't gel with. There is no "liberal science and math" bias. Sorry.

You sound awfully paranoid.

A note on austerity... For too long we have let the politicians give us this and give us that to obtain our votes. Sorry folks, we need to change our spending habits and to do it wisely and regardless to what the mindless LWNJ's spout it doesn't mean that the RWNJ's are suggesting that it be drastic like what greek faces. This means that you only target areas that will encourage growth and ignore/cut the areas that don't.

I have said this before and I will repeat it again. Cut discretionary spending evenly across the board and reduce the size of executive departments that duplicate those at the state and local levels. Let the reduced sizes at the federal level be the goal and policy setters for the states to receive funding and let the states implement. Save a forest and be smart about writing legislation. Many want the return of glass-steigle (sp), but how many forget that glass-steigal was less than 100 pages yet dodd-frank exceeds 2300 pages that will create many times those pages in written regs. The KISS principle comes to mind.

Let the obama (bush) tax cuts expire across the board, if not immediatley at the end off 2012, at least gradually over 2 years with no option of extending them again. I would hope that this would give congress and the executive branch the incentive to get meaningfull tax reform done to broaden the tax base.

You all get the idea... move forward with unity not stay behind with divisiveness.

Bayllie and Reddev - don't feel the beast. Don't you realize Kirk is the only one who "knows" anything. He will continue to "teach" you as long as you feed his ego. His rantings and ravings go on and on, changing every time you back him in a corner with facts. You're really just beating a dead horse and it doesn't matter that you knowledge far surpasses his - he'll talk down to you anyway!

SeekingSanity

Bayllie and Reddev - don't feel the beast. Don't you realize Kirk is the only one who "knows" anything

yes I know. I just have a hard time understanding how someone sees no difference between venture and volture capital. That's like comparing a loan shark to a bank.

for some reason I keep writing volture intead of vulture. I guess it looks less evil.

Sarah: I see you have opened another can of whip butt.... get em' :D)

Sanity/Bayllie - I feed the fool for entertainment. He occasionally comes up with some real doozies, like advocating spraying DDT to stop malaria and other such nonsense. Watching him talk in circles can also be quite amusing, notice his last post starts by telling Bayllie and I we don't understand investment firms and ends up talking about offshore bank accounts. Reading his posts is a little like riding the Wild Mouse - with all those sharp, neck snapping left and right turns. Now if you want to see a 3 paragraph rant, use the word embellish. That really winds his motor up.

bayllie - actually I was going to look up volture - it was a term I totally didn't know! (It's been that kind of day!) LOL

Kirk, I am no expert in private equity but from summarizing your point in your post, between all the writing of ideas that may be truths, in the end you are refuting the opinions of others with opinions of your own.

Yes private equity may include all of the wonderful things you described, but can a situation not exist where one companies buys another (by taking a loan with the collateral being the company's assets). Reorganizing that company (reduce or eliminate pensions and mass layoffs). Then make that company look profitable on paper sell it for a profit and enough to pay back the loan and that company eventually go bankrupt?

Unless you are telling me that situation cannot happen I do not understand why I am not allowed to say private equity can be harmful to those who invest in pensions. Am I missing something?

Saying well these are the companies pensions are invested in is not a good answer. The argument of the President now more than previously (why I think the Booker incident was GREAT). Is he is not attacking private equity but the lie, the same one I feel you are pushing, that is all hugs and roses. It's business its for a profit. The end result of the company does not matter, what does is the end return.

A good business sells more than a bad one so yes their intent was not to destroy companies, however you make more profit of something bad you make someone else think is good. That is where things get dirty

Aside from posts with substance being collapsed that are not in violation of FR guidelines, and the personal snipping that are not collapsed… (WTF?)

Backhouse – It's crazy that the Teapublicans are obstructing the president's 5-point list. What's not to agree with? It's a no-brainer regardless of one's ideology.

Personally, I much prefer stimulus that is more guaranteed, such as this – Not giving tax breaks until the job is actually created here in the US, and not until the new employee is actually hired. I would like to see this go even further to helping fund training for specific jobs after the person is hired. The GOP/TP on the other hand just want to give tax cuts like candy on the hopes the rich ("job creators" – ha!) will actually contribute to economic growth via "trickle-down," and with no guarantee. Everyone knows you never pay for something until after it is actually delivered. Of course Teapublicans aren't really about job creation, but rather just tax cuts for the 1%.

Independent Redneck Va. – I responded to one of your posts the other day on this topic, but it was way down in crazy town. Romney/Bain can't take credit for jobs that already existed at the time they raided these companies any more than they can take credit for jobs created after they left the company for dead. This is why Romney, who went from claiming 10 thousand to 100 thousand jobs is now only making a vague reference to "thousands" of jobs. The man is a liar, but that he knows it is the most despicable part.

Amy B. Portland, ME – Likewise, I have pointed out the complete lack of "exceptionalism" in regard to the rightwing. Just looking at the GOP/TP primary and Herman Cain, Rick Perry, Michele Bachmann, Newt Gingrich – How and why have they risen to positions of leadership, and often wealth? They are obviously idiots, let alone impressive.

Romney actually believes he has earned and deserves everything he has – He even takes credit for other people's accomplishments (Bill Bain started Bain Capital, the government helped bail-out the Olympics, President Obama saved the auto industry, etc.). But Romney just plain creeps me out.

Jody, Iowa – How many times do pollsters need to have it pointed out, that right track/wrong track means nothing?! Anyone who knows survey methodology knows this – It's just crap. Of course a large number of people will express pessimism, but for completely different reasons. Unless the survey drills down with more specifics, this is useless.

jrae-1215199 -- Agreed that the congressional races will be an issue, however, these follow the presidential results. So get out the vote and reelect the president!

TNSEVOL -- Agreed. This is Romney's plan:

Day 1 – Keystone Pipeline = Create some temporary jobs for Canadians and help Big Oil export tar sands to China, because that’s the real world – Ya gotta reward your campaign donors, everyone knows that.

Day 2 – Tax cuts and reform = Take over a country in distress, end all entitlements/safety nets and liquidate government assets, add a least 5 trillion to the debt/deficits but cutting taxes for the rich and increasing defense spending, and redistributing wealth to the 1%.

Day 2 – “Repeal and Replace” health care reform = Leave debt-strapped states to deal with skyrocketing health care costs, with every man, woman, and child to fend for his/herself per the Romney Race to the Bottom Social Darwinism Doctrine.

american-2051576 -- Right, let's make a suicide pack. If Europe shoots themselves in the head, let's do the same.

Do No Harm - Obama/Biden - 2012!

Akeem, you are correct but thats not what they are saying. First they seem to think Bain is investing their own money as opposed to money investors like pension funds provide them. It is true that many private equity deals go bad but not intentionally but again that is not what they are saying. They are picking and choosing and making wild assumptions as a result. There are plenty of private equity deals that go south. But Bain does exactly what Obama did with GM and so if you criticize Bain you must not like the governments investment in GM to be consistent. I am currently in real estate funded by private equity so I understand the business well. Reddev and Bayllie want the facts to fit their political views and it doesnt work that way. You can dislike private equity and Romney but lets get what they do correct. They also dont do any research as Reddev makes wild accusations to personally attack while not having a clue what he is referring to. Vulture capital is totally different than private equity and not sure why they keep referring to that. Seeking Sanity is just on here to campaign for Obama and try to discredit anyone who thinks otherwise regardless of facts or reality so she has no credibility. Tn has been the only accurate one all day.

That's bad enough but now the left is trying to take their bogus case against Bain style capitalism a step further by arguing that Romney's experience in that world does not qualify him to be president. OK, let's parse that one. The overarching issue in this campaign is the economy. Romney's experience in the private sector – highlighted by his tenure at Bain – gives him practical insight into how the economy works.

Unfortunately, while Romney has experienced in the economy of high finance, he has no insight on the rest of the economy, especially on creating jobs. He didn't seek to create jobs; he sought to create wealth for investors. He has no experience in creating jobs; hell, he isn't even a job creator. Nor is the CEO of GM, or Ford, or MasterLock, or any business, for that matter. The real job creators are the consumers, the middle class and the poor: i.e, you and me. In addition, Romney only had experience during the supply-side days after the Reagan administration, where the big banks and other massive economic institutions had their own rules. Obama actually has economic experience: his past 4 years in office. And he has created 4 million jobs, reversed a recession, caused two years of straight private sector growth and economic growth, and has presided over the miraculous resurrection and resurgence of the auto industry. Obama is advocating for the middle-class based economic policies that helped make our country great, focusing on the real job creators (the middle class). Romney wants to send us back to the days of deregulation, income inequality, and tax cuts for the rich, which nearly destroyed our economy.

That insight will unavoidably inform his approach to national economic policies such as taxes, regulatory regimes, federal debt levels, entitlement reforms, etc.

Not really. Romney was a businessman while regulations were already being gutted after the rise of supply-side economics in the 1980s. The economy was good then, as it had been boosted artificially, yet it was unsustainable. Romney had good times then, and he has the mistaken notion that going back will make things better. He forgot that supply-side economics failed when it caused the economy to collapse in 2008. Romney has no real experience on taxes and entitlement reform. All he plans to do for the budget is cut taxes, cut social spending (food stamps, unemployment, safety nets, education), and privatize Medicare without making any real reforms. Economic fairness is key to growth, because only with a fair share of the income can the middle class spend our economy to fast growth, and that is an economic fact that Romney seems to overlook.

Add to that his experience as a Republican governor in a blue state with a Democratic legislature, and you get the picture of a man who just might have a clue about how to govern as president.

Unfortunately, then-Governor Romney did not have to deal with a party that conspired to overthrow him, or to obstruct his agenda. The Democrats in Massachusetts were liberals, but at least they had the sense of dignity and integrity to compromise. The Republicans (Romney included) don't have that: Obama offered to cut spending by $3 trillion, and all he asked was for $1 trillion. And the GOP still said no. They couldn't stand it. You cannot compromise with a party that is planning your downfall. Even the Clinton Republicans had some sense of dignity. Obama has capitulated to the GOP time after time, and yet they don't want to compromise. That is unfair, and that is why we need to re-elect the President and give him a Congress that will actually work for him.

OBAMA BIDEN 2012

Obismal message can be condensed to this:

Whatever you want, I am for with 100% with laser like focus, vote for me.

Lotsa bitching here!

Point is:

Obama has a plan.

What is the Republican plan? Well, no specifics beyond:

1. decrease taxes

2. Decrease spending, except for the military.

We tried that for 8 years under Bush, it didn't work! What is the Republican plan?

We tried that for 8 years under Bush, it didn't work!

What about it didn't work? Unemployment was down. Tax revenues were up. It was certainly much better than it is now for the vast majority of the past eight years.

The fact that the housing bubble happened to burst at the end of his term is no more an indication of the affect the tax cuts had than the Dot Com bubble bursting at the end of his two terms was an indication of President Clinton's policies.

JC-1439099

We tried that for 8 years under Bush, it didn't work!

What about it didn't work? Unemployment was down. Tax revenues were up. It was certainly much better than it is now for the vast majority of the past eight years.

Unemployment was actually higher than it was during the Clinton years, even if you factor in the dot-com crash of 2001. And tax revenues always go up when the economy grows, which it did during the Bush administration. Yet the Bush tax cuts didn't help the economy; ask the Tax Policy Center.

OBAMA BIDEN 2012

Freshieee,

While I certainly admit that the 5.2% during the Clinton years is slightly better than the 5.3% during the Bush years, the spread is too insignificant to be meaningful. Comparing the 9.2% average for Obama versus the 5.2% or 5.3% of his predecessors would, however, have meaning.

Isn't that the goal.... to get the economy growing? That is what tax cuts ultimately do, because they put the money into the hands of the people rather than the government. And, as a result, the tax revenues increase.

ROMNEY/WHOMEVER 2012

It's quite obvious that Beverly in Chicago doesn't have a clue what treason actually means and has apparently also never heard of the First Amendment, doesn't believe in it, or simply thinks it applies to lunatics that think like she does. Let's just get the second Civil War started already and may the best, and most well armed, side win.

JC-1439099

Freshieee,

While I certainly admit that the 5.2% during the Clinton years is slightly better than the 5.3% during the Bush years, the spread is too insignificant to be meaningful. Comparing the 9.2% average for Obama versus the 5.2% or 5.3% of his predecessors would, however, have meaning.

Actually, you cannot compare Obama to Bush, as Bush had a fair economy and 8 years. Obama had a rough economy and only 4 years.

That is what tax cuts ultimately do, because they put the money into the hands of the people rather than the government. And, as a result, the tax revenues increase.

ROMNEY/WHOMEVER 2012

Unfortunately, tax cuts do not help the economy grow. Once you put money into the hands of the people, you don't know where they are going to spend it. Some may spend it on TVs, others on investments, others in college funds, some may just put the money in the bank. And if tax cuts work, why didn't they work when Bush passed his tax cuts??? We had anemic job creation for years!!! We had less private sector job growth under Bush than under Obama!!! Tax cuts for the wealthy (the Bush tax cuts affected the wealthy the most, even though they were across the board) DO NOT WORK. Enough with the cutting taxes mantra; taxes are too low. We all should be paying more to help our country, not less. This is why I hate the GOP; they brainwash people into believing that the government owes them lower taxes. It doesn't. Here's a quote I hope you and your party will remember: "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." Maybe if your party focused on that instead of giving corporations and wealthy people free handouts, you'd do better with the average person.

OBAMA BIDEN 2012

Basically, Obama's got a slam dunk. No matter how horrible the situation gets with him running the show, all he's got to say is that the situation was already horrible when he took over, and if the (job killing/growth stopping/debt raising) policies he started had not been implemented, we would all have been in a lot worse of a situation than we are now.

Worse than all of this is that the majority of the voting public ---- either buy this garbage, or just don't care, and Obama just might be voted in again in November.

And if tax cuts work, why didn't they work when Bush passed his tax cuts? We had anemic job creation for years!!!

Ummmmmm....... because they did. Perhaps you just missed the fact that following implementation of the Bush Tax Cuts the economy recovered from the double-dip Tech Bubble and 9/11 recessions and over 8 million jobs were created between 2003 and 2007 when the Housing bubble burst (over 2 million a year is hardly anemic). In addition, the tax revenue that the government took in during that period was the highest ever, even though the tax rates were reduced - FOR EVERYONE - not just the rich, as you try to imply.

This is why I hate the GOP; they brainwash people into believing that the government owes them lower taxes

Talk about brainwashing..... it is YOUR money, not the governments.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country."

Apparently you don't seem to understand what President Kennedy was saying. Since he believed in lowering taxes, I hardly think that it was a call for people to pay more taxes. In fact, just the opposite, because if you want your country to do more for you then you would need to pay higher taxes.

Ummmmmm....... because they did. Perhaps you just missed the fact that following implementation of the Bush Tax Cuts the economy recovered from the double-dip Tech Bubble and 9/11 recessions and over 8 million jobs were created between 2003 and 2007 when the Housing bubble burst (over 2 million a year is hardly anemic). In addition, the tax revenue that the government took in during that period was the highest ever, even though the tax rates were reduced - FOR EVERYONE - not just the rich, as you try to imply.

If the Bush tax cuts helped the economy, why does the Tax Policy Center say that they did virtually nothing??? And the higher tax revenues are not necessarily because of the tax cuts; it could have just been because of the economic recovery (not because of Bush tax cuts). And the Bush tax cuts were across the board, but they ONLY benefited the wealthiest Americans, as their incomes rose significantly over the past decade, while that of the middle class barely increased.

Reducing the rate on the first $17K (joint/married) by 33% hardly qualifies as benefiting ONLY the wealthy. And, removing the marriage penalty and changing the estate tax certainly wasn't a wealthy only improvement either.

Damage123

Great post Bev. I have no idea WTF you're talking about but at least it wasn't pasted. Keep it up!

Free George Zimmerman!

Brain Damage123

It means Romney is no diffent than "W" in terms of destroying the American and global economy. Got that?

The first police said that Zimmerman should have been arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder. Had that happenned we wouldn't have this problem. Now would we?

FYI: Is Zimmerman going to plead insanity now with the preponderance of evidence regarding his past record of racist remarks?

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2012/05/18/NYT-s-Reckless-Despicable-Attack-On-George-Zimmerman

Also, Stand Your Ground Doesn't Work For Black People.

Michael1969

LMAO Damage!

Trying to comprehend Bev "Crackpipe" Sharpton can be a challenge at times.

Micky, If I were on crack, at least I'd have an excuse. What's your reason for being a loon?

-

-

Most sense you've ever made.

I am really curious, are the usual posters here trying to convince each other that the POTUS is already elected? I have seen nothing but trash talk to each other, the conservatives are few and far between on here but I sincerely doubt your antics will persuade anyone, other than yourselves, that Obama has done a stellar job and that things are just rosy now. It is all but just peachy people, things are still in the outhouse in most parts of country. Luckily Texas and some other states are seemingly doing ok. But inflation is not in our favor, just go the grocery store and the temporary drop in gas a few cents in nothing but temporary.

To have Romney elected President would be a bigger disaster to the United States than the Great Depression.

Reelecting Obama is the most depressing thing that could happen to this country. That is unless your into repression and more government control of your life. We need more regulations on the regulations and regulators not the people and business.

Here we go again, another day for the left to go bunkers and fight the facts by insulting anybody that disagrees with them.

I guess Chicago is not doing so good, and I wonder why. The only good thing they have is their Mayor.

Feisty, good morning girlfriend, You migh have to change your avatar to include Dumb MSNBC, or better yet Beisty the Genius.

I would have never thought that the economy is not doing so good as the Administration is reporting.

I hate to say it and I don't want it to happen, but is coming. God help us all.

Job1
To have Romney elected President would be a bigger disaster to the United States than the Great Depression.

Six months until the election and the Obamabots can smell a huge loss. Any body notice Obama barely won the Arkansas and Kentucky primaries yesterday?

Beverly In Chicago, Ill has 200 BILLION in unpaid debt all lies and promises by DEMOCRATS. 9 BILLION in debt this year alone caused BY DEMOCRATS over promising everthing. SPIN THAT! My state IN has a surplus ran by REPUBLICANS! SPIN THAT!

Kirk,

Why do you assume that if someone is a Democrat or supports President Obama they "don't like succesful business people"? Then you talk about the "vast middle class who actually respect success"?

I am not envious of anyone's wealth or success, as long as it was achieved legally. I do happen to believe that those who worked hard and got ahead didn't do it on their own - they drive on roads built by others, protected by police officers and firefighters, their liberties assured by our military and intelligence agencies. I also believe that we should take care of thse who can't take care of themselves - the poor, the disabled, the elderly. In order to pay and payback I think we should all pay our fair share of taxes. I am sure we differ as to what we think is a fair share, though.

The main difference I see is that some Conservatives look at the poor or the elderly and think "if they would have just worked harder or made better decisions they would be as well off as me". Most Liberals look at the poor and elderly and say "there but for the Grace of God go I".

Any body notice Obama barely won the Arkansas and Kentucky primaries yesterday?

Ky and Ark. What a surprise!

John,

You must have a very low IQ. Obama will not win those 2 states come November, so who cares?

Arkansas and Kentucky are irrelevant states.

Damage,

For once I agree with you, there is no point trying to change anyone's mind on here. You especially will be unsuccessful, since like you said you are just here to ridicule.

The massive hypocrisy you are sensing is coming from the right, though. Romney/Ryan talk about a "failed president" and "failed policies" then preach a return to the failed policies of the biggest failure of a president we have ever known! MASSIVE HYPOCRISY!!

Arkansas and Kentucky are conservatives states all too reliant on federal funding for things their state taxes should pay for. That means everyone else pays for their needs. Conservatives have mastered the practiced art of hypocrisy.

Suble TNSEVOL... anyone who is wealthy couldn't possibly have EARNED it through hard work on their own, huh? Never mind the fact that the average entrepeneur works 70-80 hrs a week. Never mind the fact that the wealthy pay hugely disproportionate taxes to drive on those roads and use the other services provided by the govt. And most of the wealthy do indeed believe that we should take care of those who can't take care of themselves... the evidence is the contributions to charity that the people in this country make. We do not, however, believe that we should take care of people who WON'T take care of themselves... big difference between the two...

So you want to talk about the Arkansas Primary Results - you mean the primary where in a "Red" state Obama only received 8,000 less votes than Romney?

Or the Kentucky primary, a "Red" state where Obama received 2,000 MORE votes than Romney?

Or the West Virginia primary, another "Red" state where Obama received almost 20,000 more votes than Romney?

If this was the General Election, Obama would have captured WV and KY and lost by a small margin in Arkansas.

If I was MItt I would be concerned about voter apathy, he sure isn't "getting out the vote".

Rod_Father
John,

You must have a very low IQ. Obama will not win those 2 states come November, so who cares?

Arkansas and Kentucky are irrelevant states.

My IQ is just high enough to count to 270. Keep telling yourself and the rest of the Obamabot moochers there is no problem. He also won't win Ohio, NC, Florida or Virginia either and we all know what that means.

TNsevol--I dont think anyone disagrees with your comments in concept. But I disagree that conservatives look at the poor (dont include the elderly because they own over 80% of the aggregate wealth in this country) and say but for working hard or better decisions they would be as well off because that ignores a country built on meritocracy. There is no way I am ever going to be Albert Pujols, Bono, heart surgeon or a successful hedge fund manager. They are more skilled than I and should earn more. All of these professions already pay 40% of their earned income in federal and state income taxes so not sure what a fair share really is and we could argue over that but thats not the issue. Your view that they didnt get ahead without help is somewhat not relevant for the following reasons. All of those items are paid for besides military at the state and local level. Everyone already has the same access to the same roads, education, police and firefighters etc. You pay for all of these things with local sales taxes, gas taxes, property taxes and state income taxes. Nothing is preventing anyone from having those same opportunities. We already have a wonderful safety net for the poor and disabled so the issue is more about what greater entitlements should we continue to provide. At the federal level, half the taxpayers dont pay any federal income tax so there is no fair share there. For social security we have an entitlement program that will really be a wealth transfer from the working young to our wealthy seniors and we cant afford it so do we means test it etc. You make too many assumptions about liberal versus conservative views. The real difference is that conservatives feel that self reliance and personal accountability must play a role along with recognition that we have a meritocracy with unequal outcomes due to risk, investment, talent, merit and hard work. Consequences for personal choice also must play a role. You cant ignore that when people talk about class warfare that the teacher chose to be a teacher at that salary instead of risking a small business venture. You cant ignore the consequences of having children early in life. The creation of life time generational entitlement assistance has greater consequences long term than the simple observation that we need to take care of these poor souls.

Fed Up-

anyone who is wealthy couldn't possibly have EARNED it through hard work on their own, huh?

Where did I say that? I said that EVEN hard work on your own is supported by the benefits provided by taxpayers here in America - schools, police, fire, military, etc.

Obviously you agree with my point - you think those in need WON'T help themselves and want a "handout", I believe most of them CAN'T help themselves and need a "Hand-Up".

Kirk & Fed Up -

My main point was that although we may disagree on what level of tax is fair, I don't "dislike" succesful businessmen or envy their wealth AS YOU CLAIMED. I am a moderately successful businessman who plans on working my way up to being a very sucessful businessman. I promise when I get there I won't complain about having to pay an increased tax burden.

TNSEVOL--I am not sure many successful business people today complain about the current federal tax burden at 35% but they complain about the increasing burden of hidden taxes and fees and constant discussion of increasing everything from payroll to Obamacare tax and income taxes. If you are a moderately succesful business person, then you know that your net cash is impacted by your tax burden and impacts your ability to expand and hire. At some level it makes an impact on jobs. Second, its the inequity of the tax code in which the progressive system is built in which many people dont contribute at all because of the social engineering in the tax code. I did the tax return this year for my best friend who lives in a small community owns a muffler shop and his wife is a teacher. Their combined gross income is around 80 thousand. He has a 3000 sq foot house on an acre of land, a home in wisconsin, a yukon, harley and couple of jet skis and boat. He has one kid in college. He had $9,000 in federal income tax withheld and his refund because of all of the deductions and tax credits was $9500. He actually got welfare and he is the last person that needs it. Our tax code is so full of inequities for the working middle class and the rich. In addition, its how the money is spent. I would bet that many wealthy wouldnt complain about an increase in the tax burden if they knew our politicians could reduce spending and not use it as bailouts for banks, bailouts for union pensions, bailouts for green energy, bailouts for failed whatever or even wealth transfers to more wealthy seniors like the prescription drug benefits.

Kirk-2957282

Bev, I agree that Romney's business experience is fair game and will actually be a positive against Obama. For the life of me I cant understand the campaign philosophy by the Obama camp to compare a successful business record against Obama's lack of any business experience.

Kirk,

I know you are wrong. Romney's experience that you tout has been proven to create wealth not jobs for everyone in the USA. President Obama clearly stated there is nothing wrong capitalism; but it must benefit all of America; not just equity firms.

The fact that people like you who are already convinced don't like successful business people is not reflective of the vast people in the middle who actually respect success.

Again, stay away from Fox-mussen polls they skew and LIE. A person would have to be a hermit to not appreciate success. President Obama obviously appreciates success otherwise he wouldn't be President, campaigning for a 2nd term, or a be millionaire. It is FOX NOISE and its echo chamber that started this class warfare meme. Why don't we start there?

Fox Often Accuses Obama Of Engaging in Class Warfare

Fox Figures Claim Obama's Deficit-Reduction Plan Is "Class Warfare...September 19, 2011

http://mediamatters.org/research/201109190015

What about the lavish vacations and the fancy country club golf trips etc that Obama and his family take especially during this tough economic times? I don't really care about Obama and his wife's designer duds so I am not sure why you care about Romney's wealth. I wonder how many nannies JFK had to raise his kids or I wonder how Hillary compares as a mother raising Chelsea as I haven't heard you speak about those issues yet?

Neither do I care about Rob-Me's wealth. But, I do care about it when Rob-me lies about ripping off companies with tax payers money and his Cayman Island and Swiss bank accounts.

Mrs. Obama trips are being lied about. The Obamas Spain trips were paid for with their own personal and travel expenses.

How about Right-wing media hyping reports from an Indian news agency that President Obama's upcoming trip to India will cost $200 million a day and will require 34 warships to be stationed off the Indian coast. When in fact, the White House, the Secret Service and the Pentagon have called the claims false? First of all, it's just ludcrious to even buy into that insani-TEA.

See, the problem with people like you Sean Hannity, & Rush limbaugh is your very low IQs

Is Obama packing yet .... ??

John, do you think the Democratic primaries have any meaning at all?

Bev, reread your post and then explain who has the low IQ? You do realize that you make no sense and thats ignoring the obvious misspelling. So you agree that Romney's private equity firms were successful? So he created wealth for his investors? You do realize that wealth he created was for the middle class right? Those investors are union pension plans and middle class institutional owners like 401k accounts. Not sure what Fox has to do with this so you should keep those rants to yourself and concentrate on the actual substance of these discussions. If you dont care about Romney's wealth, then why are you mentioning it? You realize that having money in a swiss bank account doesnt mean anything right? I am sure that Kennedy, Pelosi, Kerry and others have money in foreign banks. Thats no different than a German resident or Chinese resident having money held by JP Morgan or Chase or Citibank or Wells Fargo. You do realize that some of the largest banks in the world actually reside outside the US and many people invest with them. It shows your reliance on think progress and inability to critically think on your own. As for her trips, I could care less if they she personally paid for it thats the point which you dont seem to understand. Why focus on what Romney spends his money on when you dont focus on what Obama spends his wealth on. Its irrelevant for both candidates. I have one piece of advice for you, for the same reasons people shouldnt rely on Hannity or Limbaugh, you should stay away from media matters or think progress.

If Obama had a record to run on, he would. But 3.5 years of blaming everyone else for his failure leaves only the ardent Obama supporters still giddy about this disaster. Obama has outsourced his presidency to the likes of Reid and Pelosi, and they failed him. Blame, class warfare, racism, war on women, partisan politics are the Obama legacy. Missing from the Obama stay in the White House is leadership. Obama has divided the nation, he has not lead. Obama has failed, and he has no one to blame but himself. Great leaders overcome the obstacles, they don't as Obama has done, make the obstacles an excuse.

Kirk, Bain Capital is a private business, it does not have investors.

"Bain Capital is a private business, it does not have investors."

Now there is a line to foolish for words. Talk about a total lack of understanding, no wonder the Obama attacks on Bain are working. At least for now anyway.

Raddav--their funds they used to invest are raised from institutions. Most private equity and hedge funds are private businesses but the money invested in their funds comes from institutions. You are looking at the owners of Bain Capital who go out and raise the money. For example, until Blackstone went public they were private too but their money came from unions, endowments, soveirgn wealth etc. Bain's money for their funds came primarily from union pensions, endowments and other similar institutional investors.

raddave
John, do you think the Democratic primaries have any meaning at all?

They have no meaning at all. That's why there are over 300 stories about them on Google News? Keep humming to yourself there is nothing to worry about.

"Economic gloom"...oh no!! I better read the article then. Seriously, everyone here is a media slave. Go outside. Life is good. We are so fortunate to be born in the day in age we were. We are so fortunate to have what we have. Go ahead and be gloomy if you want, but it's just what your slave masters want.

Kirk,

I read through your posts and they seem to make sense, then you talk about how the tax burden is impacting cash flow and the hidden costs of regulations and Obamacare are holding back job creation.....

We could (again) argue as to whether the tax burden on the wealthy is fair or unfair, but the fact is it is at historic lows and has NOT increased under Obama. Regulations have been added and subtracted, but as a businessman I realize that is how it has always been. Sarbanes-Oxley comes along, you adjust. You add jobs NOT because you have more "free cash" but because the revenue from the potential or increased demand is enough to cover your expenses and net you a profit. Tell me again how lowering taxes on the wealthy will increase demand?

You also pointed out very matter-of-factly above that around 50% of the people don't pay Federal Income Tax. Why is that? Do you think they prefer to make so little from their efforts that they don't meet the minimum threshold? Or is it becasue rel wages have declined as middle-class jobs have been sent overseas.

My professional specialty is manufacturing, especially "lean" manufacturing. I have argued for years that the short-sighted decision to outsource jobs to foreign countries chasing a cheaper labor market instead of making the long-term investment to improve the productivity of your domestic factories would result in a shrinking middle-class and lower domestic demand for your goods and services.

I agree the tax code needs to be restructured, but you seem to focus on those like your friend who aren't paying what you think they deserve, while I can see the gaping tax loopholes affforded the very wealthy.

Why can't we start with tax reform that eliminates or reduces loopholes/deductions, use the increased revenue to pay down the deficit, then decide what tax rates we can lower?

Bev and TNSEVOL - You're beating your head against the wall trying to have an intelligent discussion with Kirk. I tried and found he comes back and tells you you've said the opposite of what you actually said. His rationales don't hold water and, no matter how substantial your facts and supporting material, he'll become arrogant and tell you how ignorant you are. It's his ploy.

TNSEVOL - like you, I work and do well for myself. I haven't heard anyone putting someone down for earning a good or very good living. No one is jealous of them, etc., as the far right try to insinuate. Most of us do understand that there are not enough jobs for everyone at the moment, so helping those less fortunate is not a "hand out." No one is getting a free ride and everyone I've come across who is out of work would gladly be working.

I totally understand how private equity works and do understand that, not only was Romney not great at what he did with Bain, he took credit for things which he did not do and had no hand in. He constantly overstates his "successes" - Staples for example - while ignoring his debacles.

When a person like Romney is running for President and tells us he has "plans" which he won't discuss, for most rational people that is a red flag and says loudly "I've got nothing!" Only uneducated would find this intriguing.

President Obama's plan to raise taxes on companies who send jobs overseas and give tax breaks to companies bringing jobs back is a very good plan. Amazingly, it is one the GOP had then decided they didn't like when Obama bought into it.

Luckily we are seeing a number of companies bringing manufacturing jobs back to the US - GE and Caterpillar among them. Is it enough, not nearly but it's the right start. There was a list of ten companies bringing their manufacturing back to the US earlier this week. As some do it, more and more will begin to.

President Obama has shown the strength and intelligence it takes to get our country back on track. It is a slow process but we are growing and every month things look better. We cannot afford to take our country backward by buying into the right wing mentality. It would undo the progress we have made.

Busy day for me so you boys and girls play nice. Bev and TNSEVOL, don't get caught up in the circular arguments that have no point or purpose but to give someone a chance to pontificate about how great they are while they put you down. Walk away! It's the smart move!

SS--are you the Obama campaign chair for Newsvine or interested in real substantive debate. So far Tnsevol and I are having a civil discussion that doesnt need your uninformed drivel. Sorry but it is clear to me that TN is perfectly capable of standing up for himself and I think he has made very good points and actually provides informed critically thought out responses.

TN--in response--I think you are reading too much into my posts and probably because I tend to try and give the other side against partisan campaigning instead of substantive discussion. You are correct in that Obama has not yet raised taxes and its all been rhetoric and failed proposals so far. But its not true that tax rates are at historic lows, its true that tax revenue as a percentage of GDP are all historic lows because our economy is doing so poorly. Tax progressivity and the percentages of taxes paid by the various income levels are actually at historic highs. When tax rates were higher, the rich paid a smaller overall share of the government revenue. That said, I have always been in favor of a complete overhaul of the tax code and the elimination of the tax inequities and social engineering for the rich and for everyone. I think we should broaden the base, make the tax code very simple and yes very progressive. We should eliminate all the special deductions and loopholes for everything from green energy to home mortgage deductions to lower rates for fat cat divident payments. We could make it fair and simpler and actually raise revenue with lower overall rates.

Of course there is a certain level of income that wont pay tax but we should stop pandering for votes by changing the tax code constantly and its done by all political parties. I agree with your comments on expansion and demand but taxes paid do impact your take home pay and net cash flow. Of course you have to have the relevant demand but its not one side or the other its both. When the local business owner wants to buy and expand by aquiring an existing store, you have to know whether you will be profitable net of taxes before you even consider it. Expansion isnt generally brand new but acquisitions too. As for Sarbanes, you are correct but each reg has a cost/benefit that does impact bottom lines and job growth.

I agree with you on the manufacturing outsourcing but the arguments are very tough on both sides. I completely understand the short sighted views you have seen with shipping jobs overseas but you also must see the examples like GM, Apple, Coca Cola or any global company that needs to compete price wise for their products when selling them overseas. If the Japanese, Chinese, German or other competitor can sell their product cheaper, jobs will be lost no matter what in the US. Its not just a matter of competing against other US companies for US customers. Its clear that Seeking Sanity is just a simple campaigner for Obama because she states silly stuff about Obama's views on taxing foreign earnings that are just false. She also doesnt understand private equity.

So far I have enjoyed our debate and the give and take. Lets leave the campaigners out of the discussion.

Beverly In Chicago, no response? Obamas adopted home state 200 BILLION in debt and no response? Your silence says alot!

The GOP TeaBaggers and Mitt Romney did everything in their power to destroy this Country to give the Mega Rich their tax cuts !

Kirk

I have always been in favor of a complete overhaul of the tax code and the elimination of the tax inequities and social engineering for the rich and for everyone. I think we should broaden the base, make the tax code very simple and yes very progressive. We should eliminate all the special deductions and loopholes for everything from green energy to home mortgage deductions to lower rates for fat cat divident payments. We could make it fair and simpler and actually raise revenue with lower overall rates.

You don't honestly believe that a Republican would do this, do you?

I'm not saying a Democrat would... but to believe that Romney, or ANY Republican, would do this is nothing short of laughable.

I can get behind this idea, as long as ALL deductions and loopholes are removed ... and while we are at it, we need to start taxing churches too. They are nothing but right-wing political machines trying to buy votes with a promise of "salvation".

i was just in detroit and had a pretty good time even though detroit is a lost cause........detroit is what you get when liberal politicians and liberal policies run amok........detroit is an omen for the future of our nation if we don't wake up and get rid of the marxist in the white house.....by marxist in the white house, i am referring to this ass of a president obama.......the economy will continue to sputter as long as this ass is the president....obama is a liar, a distorter, and a divider.....ROMNEY FOR PRESIDENT!

geo-1957833 - What does Illinois' debt have to do with this article? Are you smoking those funny cigarettes again george? You really need to keep up!

mcpaddywacked - again with the Marxist stupidity. You know that makes anything you write totally irrelevant, right?

SeekingSanity

Bev and TNSEVOL - You're beating your head against the wall trying to have an intelligent discussion with Kirk. I tried and found he comes back and tells you you've said the opposite of what you actually said. His rationales don't hold water and, no matter how substantial your facts and supporting material, he'll become arrogant and tell you how ignorant you are. It's his ploy.

Thank you SeekingSanity

Did you get my e-mail?

Indieparty--I didnt provide any ideological view on that did I? Although I would think the GOP far more likely to eliminate all deductions and loopholes as social engineering in the code is generally the province of the democrats but both parties are guilty. If the current effective rate for the wealthy is about 24%, all you need to do is eliminate all the deductions and loopholes and reduce the rate to 28% and still bring in a ton of new revenue. That should be popular but who knows you could be correct.

I have no problem with taxing churches as long as we are equal opportunity taxers. So all unions lose their tax exempt status as the crony capitalism and unholy alliance with the democrats should not be allowed as left wing political machines and they do buy votes. Same with the Sierra Club and all Environment causes and the Trial Lawyers Association and the list goes on.

Brain Damage123

Great post Bev. I have no idea WTF you're talking about but at least it wasn't pasted. Keep it up!

Free George Zimmerman!

ChrisTutko, director of the Neighborhood Watch program at the National Sheriffs' Association, said...

" it's highly unusual, and highly discouraged, for a neighborhood watch to be armed.

"You do not carry a weapon during neighborhood watch," he said flatly. "If you carry a weapon, you're going to pull it."

Tens of thousands of watches have been formed across the United States over the decades. Some patrol gritty urban neighborhoods where volunteers walk a beat; others monitor sparsely populated areas with houses that are miles apart.

Regardless of location, the message from law enforcement is always the same: Do not intervene. Do not try to be a hero. Leave the crime-fighting to the police.

"We don't want to see somebody taking the law into their own hands," said Philadelphia police Sgt. Dennis Rosenbaum.

Read more: http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/state/experts-neighborhood-watches-shouldnt-be-armed#ixzz1vj1qhfFi

Also, Zimmermann was NOT, I repeat not a National Neighborhood Watch program

There are about 22,000 registered watch groups nationwide, and Zimmerman was not part of a registered group, which police were not aware of at the time of Martin's killing, said Chris Tutko, the director of the National Neighborhood Watch program.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-martin-arrest-now-abc-reveals-crucial-phone/story?id=15959017&page=2

==========================================

I find it strange the MSM doesn't report Zimmermann was NOT a registered National Neighborhood Watch program volunteer.

Although I would think the GOP far more likely to eliminate all deductions and loopholes as social engineering in the code is generally the province of the democrats but both parties are guilty.

Then this is where we differ... I have ZERO faith in the GOP doing anything except pushing their religious theocracy to the point of pure fascism. This belief simply comes from their recent track record and laser-focused pursuit of implementing religious law.

However, you are correct that both parties are guilty, and I doubt either will do it. But I would NEVER venture to guess the GOP to be "more likely".

If the current effective rate for the wealthy is about 24%, all you need to do is eliminate all the deductions and loopholes and reduce the rate to 28% and still bring in a ton of new revenue. That should be popular but who knows you could be correct.

I would support that, but I can just see Fox News calling this a "tax increase on job creators"... or a "WAR ON SUCCESS".

equal opportunity taxers. So all unions lose their tax exempt status as the crony capitalism and unholy alliance with the democrats should not be allowed as left wing political machines and they do buy votes.

No problem here. Your feelings on unions are the same as my feeling towards religion, and this constant push towards religious fascism that the right is obsessed with. I am not a huge fan of unions, but at least they stay the f*** out of my bedroom and personal life.

Seeking Sanity , you really can't see how this compares? Ok I will cut you some slack you are obviously slow like a vast majority of democrats. How does Ill. future look with 200 BILLION in debt? How many buisnesses will be lost by tax increases to pay the interest on borrowed money and nonfunded union pension? How many home owners will flock to Indiana and Wisconsin two republican states with surpluses, and lower taxes! Obama's whole community organizer approach is to have people who earn a living pay for those who don't! What happens when nonworkers out number workers? Or they get pissed off enough of paying thier FAIR SHARE! You wonder why the economy SUCKS so bad with 7 of the last 8 years of congress under the DEMOCRATS rule and a vastly incompentent President can accomplish! P.S. BERVERLY IN CHICAGO: DOES THE TRUTH HURT OR WHAT!!!!

geo- don't cut me any slack but try to at least sound literate - that will be a great start. Your incompetent Bush/Cheney magic twosome put this country in the quagmire we are now in but NOW you want to complain. Just like a rightie!

Bev, just sent you an e-mail! Hope you're enjoying this gorgeous weather!

Interesting that Brain Damage doesn't mention the fact that Zimmerman had drugs in HIS system too - and far more dangerous ones than Trayvon Martin's TRACE of marijuana!

SeekingSanity, all I hear from your side is this is all Bushes fault, right? When is it the INCOMPETENT OBAMA'S fault, when please tell me when? Don't you find it the least bit interesting, when the economy fell apart is when the Democrats took over the congress! 2006. And by the way who has a lower unemployment average, by far? And where the hell is BEVERLY with the Ill. answer?

Kirk-2957282

Bev, I agree that Romney's business experience is fair game and will actually be a positive against Obama. For the life of me I cant understand the campaign philosophy by the Obama camp to compare a successful business record against Obama's lack of any business experience.

It depends on what you mean by "successful." Some people will be enthralled by Romney's stories of saving businesses; others horrified by his leveraging of companies and firing of workers. And by the way, Obama has economic experience; the past 4 years of his presidency. I think that he has been pretty successful, what with economic growth, 4 million plus jobs created, a recession reversed, and an economy on the road to recovery.

But thats his choice and I think will be a losing proposition. The fact that people like you who are already convinced dont like successful business people isnt reflective of the vast people in the middle who actually respect success. However, if the way people or politicians spend their money and we start looking at wealth, does that mean we should have spent more time on candidate Kerry against Bush, or how about the Kennedy family, or how about Nancy Pelosi's wealth?

Most middle class people admire success. But most of them don't admire it when it requires that companies be forced into huge debt, workers fired, pensions taken control of, and companies bankrupt. Nor would they like how the wealthy are controlling a disproportionately large share of the economy, or how their incomes are stagnant while the wealthy continue to make more and more. Your side continues to bitch about how Democrats are against success; how is that success working for the middle class???? Income inequality is at historic highs. We are the most inequitably-distributed economy in the industrialized world. How the hell is that fair????

Is it fair game to discuss how Obama sold a 10 foot piece of land to Tony Rezco for 300k and his investments? What about the lavish vacations and the fancy country club golf trips etc that Obama and his family take especially during this tough economic times? I dont really care about Obama and his wife's designer duds so I am not sure why you care about Romney's wealth. I wonder how many nannys JFK had to raise his kids or I wonder how Hillary compares as a mother raising Chelsea as I havent heard you speak about those issues yet?

I would have to say that people don't bring up those issues of wealth on the Democrat side is that people don't tend to think that Democrats are all for the wealthy. There are a lot of wealthy Democrats, but they don't seem as out-of-touch as wealthy Republicans. That is just my opinion.

OBAMA BIDEN 2012

I consider myself an independent voter, but going back to the Reagan days and with the only exception having been Perot, I’ve always voted Republican. All this single-minded, left versus right, ideological one dimensional bull has got to go! This is the problem with our country. It shouldn't be about Democrats or Republicans! It should be about Americans, especially our elected officials, doing the right thing for our country and it's citizens.

Both parties have sold out the bulk of the American citizens, who they're supposed to represent, by allowing the "out-sourcing" floodgates to open wider and wider without taking any sensible measures to stem the tide. (Under Clinton jobs to China, Under Bush I & II influx of illegals or cheap easily abused labor into the US and jobs to Mexico/NAFTA)

We need whoever wins the next election to Start Protecting American Jobs and do whatever it takes to bring back the jobs they let go. They've got to give us somebody who will stand up for the American people.

We need to bring manufacturing back to the United States of America and both parties are ignoring tariffs as a way to level the playing field, raise money and bring jobs back home. Let's guess why. Oh that's right, tariff is a dirty word. Hum, maybe it’s that our so called leaders (political leaders) are beholden to the same people who are exporting our jobs.

I guess we should keep letting Corp Boards, Wall Street, CEOs and Foreign Lobbyists promote sending US jobs to countries where they work for slave wages, no benefits, no OSHA safety standards or no real environment regulations. How's that been working for us?

The so called “Global Market Place” is not a level playing field. Companies may have made higher profits by "out sourcing", but they've been putting middle class Americans who are a good part of the world’s customer base out of work. I’m not a lefty or member of any union. I run a business that employs over 20 people and produces products that are purchased by customers that do manufacturing and packaging. I’m just an average Joe, but I've been saying this for more than 10 years now. If I can see it, so can our so called leaders (political leaders) who are beholden to the same people who are exporting our jobs.

We need to add tariffs that are proportionate to the inequities in wages and regulations in the country where the goods were produced and or where we’re importing them from. We could then use the money raised by these tariffs to help companies build state of the art manufacturing plants here in the USA, which would create more jobs here at home for US citizens, which would then in turn increase our income tax revenue.

Bringing manufacturing back to the US not only gives jobs to the US citizens who would be working in those manufacturing facilities, but to the people that would be working in the businesses that would spring up all around them. This should also include the safe harvesting, production and distribution of our own natural energy here in the USA, rather than paying for fuel from countries where they hate us. Let’s keep that money and those jobs here in the US.

These so-called “free trade agreements” have to go. It was obvious when they were passing these agreements as to what was going to happen and sure enough it did. Our leaders had to have known this as well when they were passing these bills. It’s just common sense. We also need to bring customer support services back to the United States of America and staff them with employees who are US Citizens.

The “Global Market Place” is not a level playing field! The whole idea of the tariffs is so we can pay our factory workers a decent wage and not be blown out by these other countries where they don’t play by the same rules.

We may have to pay a bit more for products made here in the USA by US citizens, but at least we'll still have jobs and a future for our children.

The bottom line is that “Our Government” has to protect American industry and the jobs that those industries provide. If they do that, the rest will take care of itself.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

We need to Stop Illegal immigration! They’re not just doing jobs that Americans don't want. Do they pay taxes? Don't get me wrong most of these people work very hard, but are a drain on the system if they don't pay taxes, have healthcare coverage, learn the language or get paid wages that are in line with their American counterparts. Who’s footing the bill for the education of their children and the infrastructure around them? We all know that the health care provided to uninsured illegals here in the states is being averaged into our hospital costs and our insurance premiums, which have proportionately increased along with illegal immigration over the last 20 years? These costs are also being passed along to Medicaid and Medicare, which means that not only are they increasing our insurance premiums, but that we’re paying for them again with our tax dollars.

Our tax dollars and insurance premiums should not be used to recoup the cost of healthcare given to illegal immigrants, who shouldn't even be here in our country in the first place.

To the people that disagree, we should ask them should this: If a few illegal immigrants knocked on your door and demanded that you pay some medical bills for them, would you pay them?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Devastating Health Insurance Cost Increases

We just got a notice that the cost of the healthcare coverage that we provide to our employees is increasing by 33% for those of us with the POS plan and 36% for our employees who selected the cheaper HMO version of our plan. Yet our company has had to hold or reduce our own prices over the last 4 years and even going back into the late 90’s we were lucky if we could even increase our prices 3-4% a year. How do these insurance companies justify these types of increases? Last year was the only year that their increases were even close to within reason and that’s only because they were being challenged. If health insurance premiums increased double or even triple the rate of inflation we’d probably be able to accept it, but the ridiculous annual increase percentages over the past 10-12 years have been devastating to our business and our employees. Something needs to be done. I didn’t vote for President Obama and I know that the plan that they passed is not ideal, but at least he had the guts to take this issue on. I consider myself an independent voter, but going back to the Reagan days and with the only exception having been Perot, I’ve always voted Republican. So I’m not a lefty, yet I believe that every U.S. Citizen deserves basic healthcare coverage.

I run a business that employs just over 20 people and neither our company nor our employees can afford this anymore. We’re paying 65% and our employees are paying the balance. About 15 years ago we were paying 100%, then about 10 years ago had to cut it to 75% and then a few years back to 65%.

It doesn’t matter who fixes it – Just Fix It.

All this single-minded, left versus right, ideological one dimensional bull crap has got to go! This is the problem with our country. It shouldn’t be about Democrats or Republicans! It should be about Americans, especially our elected officials, doing the right thing for our country and it’s citizens.

Patriotic is a closet teabagger. Joe Biden has the photos, but photoshopped George Bush's head onto them.

Independent R, omg, they hope we cannot see anything at all.

Just Who IS IT that sends jobs overseas? It's the guys making those ads and their buddies! The billionaires that back Crossroads are in it to control all the regulations and cut their own taxes down to zero.

These are the Romney people, who stash their pots of gold in the Caymann Islands.

And swap their US citizenship for a different one - anything to avoid paying fair taxes.

there is no excuse for these kinds of ads, which take facts out of context or simply invent them

Sort of like the way the Obama campaign distorts Bain Capital. Or the way the Dems distort the Ryan Plan by showing him pushing granny off a cliff. I'm shocked, truly shocked that political advertising (on both sides) does such things.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303360504577410573651845802.html

All Obama needs to do is rerun attack ads aired by Gringrich, Santorum, and Perry against Romney. Those ads damaged him heavily in the primaries and will damage him leading up to the RNC.

When Americans can no longer communicate without total vitriol, something of Americanism has been lost. How does it help our younger generation? It doesn't. Then, these middle aged cranky asses wonder why our college kids are so unable to feel any sense of optimism? With the 30, 40 and 50-something pessismists all going for each other's jugulars?

Yesterday, I had the wonderful pleasure of stopping at a red light. In the car next to me were a bunch of young girls all laughing and smiling. In the lane to my right was Mrs. McMommy Sourpuss in an all-fired hurry to whip down the road as if she's on her way to the emergency room. Says something very serious about how the middle aged are accepting BEING middle aged. Too many college days and happy hours for them to accept their now enforced adulthood?

Those young girls waved to us and we waved back and laughed with them. Best part of being an American...meeting the 20 somethings out there who are far more the "Neo Hippie Generation" than their tight butt Mcparents with the long faces and dour attitudes.

ewwwwent,

In your first sentence you talk about "When Americans can no longer communicate without total VITRIOL ..."

Then you follow up with "middle age cranky asses" before attacking "Mrs. McMommy Sourpuss" .... obviously without knowing a thing about her or how her "day" had been going. Then, you finish with "...that their tight butt McParents with the long faces and dour attitudes".

Are you bi-polar ? Do you have manic-depressive tendencies, or do you enjoy contradicing yourself ?? Furthermore, WHAT IN THE HE11 DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE ARTICLE ???

Where'd you come up with this BS? Oh, I forgot, it is an election year and anyone not Obama must be demonized.

Where'd you come up with this BS? Oh, I forgot, it is an election year and anyone not Obama must be demonized.

Isn't it the left that's always accusing the right of using scare tactics?

That's why they call her Insane Ursula.

What a DUMB CLUCK statement, Urusla.

Demonized? Scare tactics? Seriously? Lighten up...it's a joke!

Romney said, "Corporations are people, my friend..." I just thought it'd be fun to spin that around and give Romney a familiar playing field.

Romney, while working for Bain Capitol, made an estimated 100 Million Dollars

Obama, while working as the President of the USA, lost an estimated 5 Trillion Dollars

100,000,000 MADE

or

5,000,000,000,000 LOST

Its Really Not That Complicated !!!

Corporations are people... investors, workers, management... all people... with a common purpose... to provide goods and services that consumers want... What do you think, that corporations are real estate, or buildings, or machinery, or some amorphous blob of evil intent???

Fed Up-

So if all those people make up a corporation, why is a corporation also considered a seperate entity with a right to Free Speech? Why does the Free Speech of each of those individuals not count as the Free Speech of the corporation?

You can't have it both ways.

Ursula, This is really funny. Do you have an insight when we all get our 666 brand?

Corporations are people.

Well, this aught to be fun, watching FedUp trying to copulate with a corporation. Kinda like watching an idiot try to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Kinda like watching an idiot try to fit a square peg into a round hole

I'm thinking more like watching a monkey trying to @!$%# a football! ;o)

Good news on the housing front. As I said, we are recovering, albeit slowly.

The housing recovery is underway according to the National Association of Realtors® (NAR) which released numbers on Tuesday to back up that claim. Existing home sales rose from March to April and are well above sales one year ago. Prices are on the rise as well and the improvements were felt across all regions of the country.

Total existing home sales in April including single-family homes, townhomes, condominiums, and cooperative apartments increased 3.4 percent to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 4.62 million. This was an increase of 3.4 percent from March although those figures were revised down from an original estimate of 4.48 million to 4.47 million. April sales were 10.0 percent higher than the 4.30 million-unit level one year earlier.

Single-family sales rose to 4.09 million in April from 3.97 million in March, an increase of 3.0 percent. The annual rate of sales is 9.9 percent higher than in April 2011. Condo and co-op sales increased 6.0 percent to an annual rate of 530,000 in April from 500,000 and are 10.4 percent higher than the 480,000 sales pace one year earlier.

NAR chief economist Lawrence Yun said, "It is no longer just the investors who are taking advantage of high affordability conditions. A return of normal home buying for occupancy is helping home sales across all price points, and now the recovery appears to be extending to home prices. The general downtrend in both listed and shadow inventory has shifted from a buyers' market to one that is much more balanced, but in some areas it has become a seller's market."

On a non-seasonally adjusted basis there were 400,000 home sales in April, an increase of 11.1 percent from the 360,000 existing home sales in March and an annual increase of 6.7 percent. It was the first time since last august when 429,000 homes sold that sales in a single month reached the 400,000 mark. Single family sales were 355,000 compared to 316,000 (+12.3 percent) in March and 375,000 (+6.6 percent) in April 2011.

Prices were also up. The national median existing-home price for all housing types jumped 10.1 percent to $177,400 from one year earlier following a 3.1 percent annual improvement in March. "This is the first time we've had back-to-back price increases from a year earlier since June and July of 2010 when the gains were less than one percent," Yun said. It was also the third straight monthly increase and the median price is now $22,800 higher than at its recent low point in January. Yun said that, "For the year we're looking for a modest overall price gain of 1.0 to 2.0 percent, with stronger improvement in 2013."

Corporations are like people in that they get to screw people over and 'limit' their liability.

Kind of like Privatizing the Profits; but Socializing the Risk - ala Wall Street, Credit Swaps,...you know - the 'usual' suspects.

Of course only CERTAIN types of people are 'smart' enough to actually do it. The rest of us care about those little details like ethics.

Kind of like Privatizing the Profits; but Socializing the Risk - ala Wall Street, Credit Swaps,...you know - the 'usual' suspects.

All these people whining and crying about Obama's executive orders, yet they completely fail to understand that by telling a friend that burgers made at a clownish fast food restaurant are disgusting means you can be sued for millions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLibel

Need further proof, ask Oprah about Beef.

Red...

Oprah would surely know...looks like she has about a 6 cheseburgers per day habit.

I guess you forgot about;

“Today, I’m pledging to cut the deficit we inherited in half by the end of my first term in office. This will not be easy. It will require us to make difficult decisions and face challenges we’ve long neglected. But I refuse to leave our children with a debt that they cannot repay — and that means taking responsibility right now, in this administration, for getting our spending under control.”

-Barack Obama 2009

The federal debt is $5 trillion higher than the day he took office.

That has to be most hilarious attempt to hide the truth I've ever read. Essentially what he is saying is that the sharp rise in spending started in FY09. Since the budget was already passed all spending under Obama can be credited to Bush. Since FY09 Obama hasn't been increasing spending just maintaining it at those ridiculous levels. Nice touch by adding the Wall Street Journal. Too bad the author, Rex Nutting, has nothing to do with the Wall Street Journal. So about some actual facts. President Obama has spent $2,769,902 more than the government has taken in since being elected. These are actual numbers taken directly from the treasury department. They are based on actual spending/income. No budgets, no rates, no hidden anything. To be fair, Bush did his fair share of spending as well, $2,333,910 worth of deficits during his 8 years.

http://www.fms.treas.gov/mts/overview.html

John, don't confuse these people with facts...their liberal minds will explode!!!!

You righties make up your own facts. Other Americans know the facts because we don't try to "own" them like you neoconservatives do. We don't have to make up "facts". They exist of their own accord. Unlike righties, who give birth to one lie after another to suit their back room agendas. And please, don't tell me about Republicans. I was one. I left the party when female voices were always shouted down by Prissy Pants Big Mouths whose McMommies finally allowed them out of their playpens.

Dumbama and the Dems have to go before this country is ruined for generations to come!

Why are so many earlier posts "Collapsed by Community" - I'll decide what is valuable in postings not some ellusive "community" - who the hell is "community"?

There were two other noteworthy items in the WSJ besides the poll. One is the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report that the US could go into recession next year. The triggers for the recession are allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire and cutting spending. Obama is dead set on allowing the tax cuts to expire.

The second is WSJ editorial that outlines that of the 11 recessions is the past 60 years, BHO's recovery has created the 9th fewest jobs, that means 81% of recoveries in the past 60 years were better. The other issue is in terms of growing GDP the OHB recovery ranked 11 out of 11. That means 100% of other recoveries created more GDP growth than the current one.

When you consider that 80% of the corporations taken over by Bain were success stories, Romney's record in dealing with distressed organizations is better.

Bruce - did you even READ your post? Do you know how nonsensical it is? Do you realize that - outside of the GREAT DEPRESSION - there is nothing to compare this recession to? Do you actually understand what has happened over the past 8 years?????

Skup

That has to be most hilarious attempt to hide the truth I've ever read. Essentially what he is saying is that the sharp rise in spending started in FY09. Since the budget was already passed all spending under Obama can be credited to Bush. Since FY09 Obama hasn't been increasing spending just maintaining it at those ridiculous levels.

Yes, skup, the sharp spending increase did occur under Bush, during FY09. And Bush was the one who approved the spending levels (and thus the deficit) for FY09. Obama has pretty much been maintaining spending at current levels, and in actuality spending is going down under his tenure.

Nice touch by adding the Wall Street Journal. Too bad the author, Rex Nutting, has nothing to do with the Wall Street Journal. So about some actual facts. President Obama has spent $2,769,902 more than the government has taken in since being elected. These are actual numbers taken directly from the treasury department. They are based on actual spending/income. No budgets, no rates, no hidden anything.

Actually, deficits under Obama have totaled about $4 to $5 trillion, yet most of that has been because of the lower revenues and higher spending on safety nets caused by the recession. I would say that Obama actually spent approximately $1.5 trillion over his first term, including the stimulus and the surge in Afghanistan.

To be fair, Bush did his fair share of spending as well, $2,333,910 worth of deficits during his 8 years.

Unfortunately, that is not fair. Bush had deficits totaling about $6.4 trillion, as debt was roughly $11.9 trillion when FY09 ended, subtracted from the $5.5 trillion that he had when he took office. To be fair, I will subtract $1 trillion from FY09, as that was caused by the recession. but that still leaves Bush at a $5.4 trillion deficit hole. Divided by 8 years, that totals roughly $675 billion in deficits every year, compared to Obama's $500 billion average in deficits caused by his spending.

Bruce from Jacksonville

There were two other noteworthy items in the WSJ besides the poll. One is the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report that the US could go into recession next year. The triggers for the recession are allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire and cutting spending. Obama is dead set on allowing the tax cuts to expire.

Not true. Yes, the expiration of Bush tax cuts could rattle the economic recovery, but Obama isn't after having them expire. He only wants to have them expire for those making $250,000, aka the wealthy. I think that the economy can improve without those tax cuts for the wealthy.

The second is WSJ editorial that outlines that of the 11 recessions is the past 60 years, BHO's recovery has created the 9th fewest jobs, that means 81% of recoveries in the past 60 years were better. The other issue is in terms of growing GDP the OHB recovery ranked 11 out of 11. That means 100% of other recoveries created more GDP growth than the current one.

That may be true. Unfortunately, this is the worst recession since the Great Depression. Last time I checked, the Great Depression took over a decade to recover from. You should feel pretty damn luck at the pace we are moving at. Not to mention that the recovery from the Great Depression fell into a recession in 1937 after FDR tried to balance the budget (reminds me of Paul Ryan's austerity plan). In addition, thanks to increased income inequality and stagnant wages, consumer spending isn't as strong as it was in those other 11 recessions, and so the recovery is anemic due to weak demand.

When you consider that 80% of the corporations taken over by Bain were success stories, Romney's record in dealing with distressed organizations is better.

Not really. Romney didn't have to deal with things like foreign economic crises in key trading areas like Europe, major sponsors of harsh austerity measures that would tank an organization, and a group of people who have no interest in working with him. Nor has Romney had to deal with things like unemployment, problems in the financial industry, healthcare reform, and fiscal policy. That doesn't make Romney so rosy, does it???

OBAMA BIDEN 2012

You do hate America. You voted Obama and still back him even though he is the worst ever.

I am not blameiing him. Everyone knew he couldn't do the job and was not qualified to run for it but the crazies got their way and now look at the mess we are in. And the Follos want to do it again.

Like I Said

"Just Remember

If Liberals Hated America we’d VOTE Republican.

Obama-Biden 2012!"

rukidding...You fool no one. If President Obama is the worst president, what the hell was Bush? I'll tell you what...a 3-time loser puppet of Cheney. You neocons just refuse to admit you voted 2 times for this swaggering blowhard lunatic of conservatism. What good did his 2 tax cuts do to the economy? According to the GAO? The first one made 1% richer by an increase in their wealth of 11%. So please...spare us the BS slamming this president. We've all had enough of twerps who don't know how to man up and take blame for their decisions.

ewent

what the hell was Bush?

you are not allowed to say that name anymore. Just repeat after the Republicans: Bush who?

I beg to differ, President Obama and democrats have turned around a near depression with ZERO help from the GOPTP. So, no, I will not waste my vote for some independent candidate with a snowball's chance in hell of winning and risk handing the reins of power back to the GOPTP which created the giant deficit/debt/endless war/tanked economy mess in the first place. Democrats are not perfect but at least they aren't nuts. Yes, I classify the GOPTP as being nuts because instead of learning from their mistakes the past 30 years, they just keep repeating them over and over and hoping that trickle-down, voo-doo, tax cuts don't really add to the deficit and debt mentality works this time.

You talk it down and people act accordingly.

Exactly. If anyone slowed our recovery from the recession it was the Republicans, who moaned and groaned from the moment President Obama was elected about how bad things were and how the stimulus wouldn't work, yada, yada, yada. Just when America needed cheerleaders, the Republicans went with spreading doom and gloom, which dampened consumer confidence in a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Add in the impact Boehner had by calling for another crisis over the Debt Ceiling. It doesn't need to be addressed now, but if he didn't bring it up now it wouldn't be increasing the economic pessimism anyone before the election.

Maybe he can be really successful at these "scare tactics" and lower our credit rating even more.

Amy -- That's not an "if". Republicans halted economic recovery. It's a matter of record now. The debt ceiling crisis is one example of how they have accomplished that.

Exactly. If anyone slowed our recovery from the recession it was the Republicans, who moaned and groaned from the moment President Obama was elected about how bad things were and how the stimulus wouldn't work, yada, yada, yada. Just when America needed cheerleaders, the Republicans went with spreading doom and gloom, which dampened consumer confidence in a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That and the fact that their policies over the past 30 years has led to stagnant wages and higher income inequality.

OBAMA BIDEN 2012

“Facts Republicans Hate:

• Job losses per month in January 2008: 700,000
• Job gains last month: 120,000
• 25 straight months of private sector gob growth
• GDP growth in 2008: negative 6%
• GDP growth last year 2.9%
• Dow Jones Average in January 2008: Under 8000
• Dow Jones Average today: 12,500+
• Record domestic oil production
• GM – all time record profits
• Near record corporate profits across the board
• Osama Bin Laden --- dead
• Iraq war --- over “

Damn things are rosy, aren't they? Tell it to those who haven't been able to find work for two years and are broke. Tell it to those who cashed in their 401Ks to survive temporarily. Tell it to all those ex home owners with"REO" for sales signs in front of what used to be their houses. We are, like the article states going into the second of a double dip recession. The dramatic increase in debt from the failed stimulus was a colossal mistake coming home to roost.

Job1 your figures are fuzzy and don't really show the correct picture.

• Job losses per month in January 2008: 700,000

FACT: Obama made very specific promises about unemployment and he failed to deliver on those promises. Unemployment went well beyond what he promised we would not exceed and lasted far longer than he promised it would last.

• Job gains last month: 120,000

FACT: Job gains have been rising and falling over a long term but consistently they have been lower than Obama foretold. So companies have actually been hiring fewer people than Obamas economic policies promised.

• 25 straight months of private sector gob growth

FACT: I actually agree with you on this one. However the job growth has been far lower than predicted and the outlook is now much longer.

• GDP growth in 2008: negative 6%

FACT: Again I agree but also again you just toss out the numbers without looking at what is behind them, and you especially ignore that GDP has less to do with the president than it does with congress. So last year’s 2.9% is a reflection of those stalemates that liberals decry Republicans over. In other words GDP grew because congress was too busy infighting to actually manage the GDP.

• Dow Jones Average in January 2008: Under 8000
• Dow Jones Average today: 12,500+

FACT: The President has nothing to do with the Dow Jones Average. This is a marker of private sector, big business which Liberals go such a long way to condemn.

• Record domestic oil production

FACT: We are producing more domestic oil than ever before but the demand for oil has far outpaced our production. So in other words even though we are producing more oil, we are actually producing less than what we could meet demand for 10 years ago.

• GM – all time record profits

Numerous other companies have failed under the same bail outs that saved GM. And GM has come close to failing before and made it out under their own steam without massive government bailouts. Not to mention while GM is now profitable the tax payers (the investors under the bailout) have not seen any returns.

• Near record corporate profits across the board

FACT: Absolutely correct, which is odd considering how much Obama talks against corporations and how much the so called 1% hate corporations and how often you hear democrats condemn corporate greed. Oh and by the way, cost of living has increased further than corporate profits and yet salaries for lower income and middle class workers has remained at Bush era levels.

• Osama Bin Laden --- dead

FACT: Obama would have been crucified had he failed to do that job. He deserves credit for making the call but not more than that. No more than Bush deserves credit for the death of Saddam Hussein.

• Iraq war --- over

FACT: Hardly! We are leaving but the fighting continues. In fact our relations with the Iraqi people soured under Bush and only got worse under Obama. The same is true for Afghanistan.

• Iraq war --- over

FACT: Hardly! We are leaving but the fighting continues. In fact our relations with the Iraqi people soured under Bush and only got worse under Obama. The same is true for Afghanistan.

We could stay in Iraq in Afghanistan for the next 100 years and the instant we leave they will resume killing each other. Their tribal feuds have gone on for so long it's in their blood. We aren't going to change that, it's time we accepted that fact and cut our losses.

I find that Republicans just don't understand simple facts. The research is so easy, and the FACTS prove that President Obama is one of the GREATEST Presidents the United States has ever had. It's a facts that he saved us from another Great Depression.

Blamo...Well? Where were you when JP Morgan "bet" $2 billion? Where were you when Madoff Madoffed $65 billion? Where were you when Kenny Boy Lay and his slimeball partner Jeff Skilling Enroned 33,000 employees out of their retirements?

The rich know their Gravy Train ride is over. They hate every minute of having to watch how they spend THEIR money when they've been so good at watching how WE spend ours. Boo hoo. Who cares? Living within one's means isn't limited by to those in the middle and at the bottom. Gravy Train ride is over and we are leaving rich asses at the station.

Candlewycke...it's interesting that Dems give Obama credit for "ending" the war in Iraq (although you argue that it's hardly over)...but what they seem to not understand is that the war in Iraq ended per the timeline established by Bush, not Obama. These people will fall all over themselves to worship the idiot in chief...he could be proven to be a child rapist and these people would love him for it. He could be proven to be a radical racist like the New Black Panther Party idiots and these people would love him for it. He could (and very well may) bankrupt this country and these people will love him for it. It's like a cult, reminiscent of "Papa Joe" Stalin and "Der Fuhrer" Hitler!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By all means, Ewent...we should get rid of all the rich people! Tar and feather them! Put them in prison! That way we will have equality...we will all be equally poor and miserable but what the heck...misery loves company!

jwilson...Nope...I'll settle from them ending their skanking around. Don't tell me they don't. We have so-called rich farmers in NJ who own 10 or more acres of land and all they have to do is sell $500 worth of anything from that property and they only pay $30 in property taxes while I'm making up the difference paying $5100.

There's a difference in being conscionably rich and being a Madoffer. Get a clue. No one minds a person who becomes wealthy and gives back to the country that made that opportunity possible. But that's not what happens is it? Oh no. You've got wealthy asses who give but then get tax credits that cut their taxes even further than those Republican tax cuts.

Don't these Aholes know going in that if they are seeking wealth, they are also seeking higher taxes? Why should someone earn 500 times less pay more taxes than someone earning 500 times more?

No one really wants Obama any more ....

bigbenalaska - you speak for no one but yourself and you should probably realize that by now.

No one really wants Obama any more ....

So then, why strike out to be successful? I mean if there is no motivation in it, why do it? You sound bitter and hateful. People who are crooks (Corzine perhaps) should be convicted and punished. But if its not anyone money..... the banks (a business) Im inclined to think if they make bad decisions with their own money, then they will pay the price. Just like any other business. Stop all tax breaks for every business republican and democrat

Candlewycke

Job1 your figures are fuzzy and don't really show the correct picture.

• Job losses per month in January 2008: 700,000

FACT: Obama made very specific promises about unemployment and he failed to deliver on those promises. Unemployment went well beyond what he promised we would not exceed and lasted far longer than he promised it would last.

REAL FACT: Obama made no such promises. He did not promise that unemployment would go below 8%; two economic members of his staff did, but they expressed doubt on that. Check Politifact.

• Job gains last month: 120,000

FACT: Job gains have been rising and falling over a long term but consistently they have been lower than Obama foretold. So companies have actually been hiring fewer people than Obamas economic policies promised.

REAL FACT: Job gains have risen and fallen, but positive job growth has remained consistent. And I have yet to see any promises on job growth that Obama made besides his 8% pledge, which never actually happened.

• 25 straight months of private sector gob growth

FACT: I actually agree with you on this one. However the job growth has been far lower than predicted and the outlook is now much longer.

REAL FACT: Still have yet to see any promise that Obama made on job growth. And this pace is actually must faster than the recovery during the Great Depression. Not to mention that unemployment would have been at a much lower 7.2% had states not laid off teachers and firefighters and 2 million jobs would have been created had the GOP voted for Obama's Jobs Act.

• GDP growth in 2008: negative 6%

FACT: Again I agree but also again you just toss out the numbers without looking at what is behind them, and you especially ignore that GDP has less to do with the president than it does with congress. So last year’s 2.9% is a reflection of those stalemates that liberals decry Republicans over. In other words GDP grew because congress was too busy infighting to actually manage the GDP.

REAL FACT: GDP has much to do with Congress. Yet GDP could have been higher had the GOP worked with Democrats to increase growth and decrease unemployment. This anemic recovery isn't even necessary; had we stuck to stimulus (which has worked, ask the CBO and years of experience) and spending money to keep jobs afloat, growth would be much higher and unemployment much lower.

• Dow Jones Average in January 2008: Under 8000
• Dow Jones Average today: 12,500+

FACT: The President has nothing to do with the Dow Jones Average. This is a marker of private sector, big business which Liberals go such a long way to condemn.

REAL FACT: Yes, the Dow has little to do with the President, yet it reveals how the business community (and the private sector) is prospering, even under the "anti-free market" Obama.

• Record domestic oil production

FACT: We are producing more domestic oil than ever before but the demand for oil has far outpaced our production. So in other words even though we are producing more oil, we are actually producing less than what we could meet demand for 10 years ago.

REAL FACT: Yes, we are producing more domestic oil; in fact, most of the oil consumed is made here in America. In fact, we are exporting oil. That is because demand is low, far lower than production. We are producing more than we have for years and actually have an oil surplus, which is being sent as exports. I don't know where you are getting those facts, but they are false.

• GM – all time record profits

Numerous other companies have failed under the same bail outs that saved GM. And GM has come close to failing before and made it out under their own steam without massive government bailouts. Not to mention while GM is now profitable the tax payers (the investors under the bailout) have not seen any returns.

REAL FACT: Yes, numerous companies have failed taking such bailouts. But I doubt that any of them had the rapid resurgence that GM did. GM did once recover without bailouts, but that was most likely a far less severe crisis than it was in 2009. And technically, the taxpayers are getting a return in a recovering economy and in lower unemployment rates.

• Near record corporate profits across the board

FACT: Absolutely correct, which is odd considering how much Obama talks against corporations and how much the so called 1% hate corporations and how often you hear democrats condemn corporate greed. Oh and by the way, cost of living has increased further than corporate profits and yet salaries for lower income and middle class workers has remained at Bush era levels.

REAL FACT: Obama is not anti-free market as you and the GOP make him out to be. Last time I checked, condemning corporate greed isn't anti-capitalism. It is pro-efficient, much like how the GOP wants to make the government "more efficient." And you would have to blame the companies for the stagnant standard of living of their employees; that, and the supply-side radical right-wing economic policies of tax cuts for the rich and deregulation of major industries that tanked the economy and caused stagnant wages and increased economic inequality. This statement simply shows that Obama is not anti-business, nor are his policies, or else corporate profits would be down. You'd be calling Obama anti-capitalist and socialist had profits been down, I am sure of it.

• Osama Bin Laden --- dead

FACT: Obama would have been crucified had he failed to do that job. He deserves credit for making the call but not more than that. No more than Bush deserves credit for the death of Saddam Hussein.

REAL FACT: Obama is being crucified by the GOP for killing bin Laden, as they claim that it was because of Bush's intel and because of the troops. You also say that Obama only deserves credit for making the call, which I would say equates to a lot of credit. Not more than the troops and covert operators, but still a lot. And shall we forget the premature "Mission Accomplished" parade that Dubya threw on an aircraft carrier a few months after invading Iraq. How did that victory turn out??? Where were the detractors: oh wait, they would have been called anti-American. Well that is what the GOP is; anti-American. And that is from their own words. Funny how that happens...

• Iraq war --- over

FACT: Hardly! We are leaving but the fighting continues. In fact our relations with the Iraqi people soured under Bush and only got worse under Obama. The same is true for Afghanistan.

REAL FACT: As an Arab American, I feel that the Iraqis and Afghans will always be fighting. Take a look at the history of the Middle East and of Central Asia. Plus the Iraqis didn't hate Obama more than they hated Bush; both were presiding over an invasion of their country. Iraq was unnecessary, and I would say the same for the Afghans. Maybe they would oppose Obama more about the surge, but they could also like him better because he routed the Taliban. It could go either way. Obama didn't make things worse: he just tried (and maybe succeeded) to make the best out of a bad situation.

Sorry, Candle, but your "facts" are more like opinions. It seems like the truth favors the liberals, at least on these arguments.

OBAMA BIDEN 2012

Job...

I'm glad your research has gotten you to understand completely that "Republicans just don't understand simple facts"...as you have written.

Try doing a little research into the most heavily Democrat voting blocs...who vote just like you do...and tell us about the great wisdom of those groups and how wonderfully they understand "facts"...whether simple or complex. The very poorest cities in my state overwhelmingly vote Democrat in every single election, no matter the candidate. Maybe I just fail to "understand" the reason why the people with the highest levels of "understanding facts" live in the crappiest sections of my state.

You don't live in the last century much, do you?

Which "man"?

trazmo...You got it on the mark. FDR had governors on both sides of the aisle begging to get the WPA up and running just to get people back to work. But think about why. Then, the losers on Wall Street just jumped out of buildings and didn't hoard the moolah they stole from everyone else. They knew what would happen if they showed their greedy faces on the streets. Flying out of skyscraper windows was a much kinder end to their greed. Today there is no penalty for greedy. So to the rich and Wall Street, Greed is not just good, it's splendid. No consequences for evil and no consciences either.

The reality is that we have regulations. But instead of throwing asses who skirt the regulations in jail, we allow them to "settle" with millions in moolah..moolah that matters little in loss to them since they got it all from you and I. They'll just get more from us and not feel a single pinch in the ass for their underhanded, skanky tricks.

Romney's budget adds $5 trillion more to our deficit. We've been hearing that deficits cause uncertainty so what's your case for replacing Obama?

Exactly! Spend wisely and increase and decrease taxes appropriately.

trazmo/fala

Willard Romney would make the worst President in history, George W. Bush look like a great President in comparison.

compared to Obama President Bush is great. That's not much of a comparison though.

A pet bird would look better then Obama.

Re-election campaigns are about the incumbent.

NOT ALL CONSERVATIVES ARE STUPID, BUT MOST STUPID PEOPLE ARE CONSERVATIVES... John Stuart Mill.

You've got to be delusional if you think George W Bush was a better president than anyone. My dog could have been a better president than Bush. Say what you want about Obama, but at least we're not the laughing stock of the world right now

Jim...Have you done any math in your life? $2 billion in 2001 to corporations to hire and create jobs. $3.2 trillion for Iraq and counting. $200 billion for an Iraqi embassy that now has to be closed because it's so cost-prohibitive. The only thing Bush ever did was make certain his beloved swagger blowhard state got more than its fair share of our federal tax revenues. $12 billion to Big Oil? That's economics? Every year? Get real.

Most people in this country suffered the consequences of the decisions made by the Bush administration because every single piece of Republican legislation targeted the Middle Class and working poor and NEVER, NEVER, NEVER the rich or the Corporate Welfare state. Most Americans today don't give a squat if these Too Big To Fail Corporations fail. They don't hire and they don't create jobs. And they will continue to hoard money they steal from consumers, taxpayers and employees.

Everything has to come to an end sooner or later. It's time for the Corporate Welfare State to fall in on itself so it can be replaced with new and more conscionable industries. In other words, step aside and let our younger generation come up with new ideas on the world they want to be employed by.

Jim...Only an idiot believes a President can march into a boardroom and usurp the CEO and his board of honchos. Get a clue. Stop blaming this president. If your Republicans are barring the door to allowing this president to do what FDR did and create jobs in infrastructure so desperately needed, why the hell blame the president? Isn't that the BS you neocons love to spout? "smaller government" So small it resembles a board of directors headed by a CEO? Sorry not in this democracy. You and your conservative numbnuts will not take away our freedoms and reduce the power of the people. If you don't like that, there's always North Korea. Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

Job1 - exactly. The standing of the US has been elevated because of President Obama. He is well liked and well respected and that has raised the opinion of those abroad about the US. We are, however, being laughed at by even looking at Romney who can't answer a question without faltering and looking totally stupid! Oh well - Bush II.

Plus, please remember that Romney would most likely put boots on the ground in Syria as he listens very closely to McCain (never saw a county he didn't want to invade) and Cheney (want to go to war so Haliburton continues their success).

Obama/Biden 2012

Sure, you toss a few million here and a few billion there and ALL these countries in the world will "love you" .... at least as long as the cash keeps coming ! Being liked is no substitute for being competent, prudent and financially capable. Obama has none of those attributes. He's a salesman pure and simple.

Whether he is well "liked" or not is irrelevant. Sure, Obama can bow down, kiss their rings or ki$$ their a$$, but at the end of the day he is merely giving away money WE DON'T HAVE ... trying to look presidential !

As soon as you start saying "... that Romney would most likely ...", you might as well stop talking. At that point, you lose all credibility because a libbie like you knows absolutely NOTHING of what Mr. Romney would do in the future.

jim-1455434 - no one knows what Romney would do - even Romney. That is very evident every time he is asked a question and can't answer it.

Obama/Biden 2012

Matt

We are the laughing stock of the world now. And justly deserved with this non leader.

Sad part is you fools do not realize it.

Job you can post bold all you want. I hate to say it but it just makes your posts look even more idiotic.

As soon as you start saying "... that Romney would most likely ...", you might as well stop talking. At that point, you lose all credibility because a libbie like you knows absolutely NOTHING of what Mr. Romney would do in the future.

Actually, we already know what he would do as president. He would cut taxes by $3.4 trillion (might raise taxes on people who make less than $40k) or adopt the Ryan budget. Each would add to the deficit, increasing our debt over the next decade by over $10 trillion. Obama, by contrast, would cut the deficit by $2 trillion over the same period, making our future deficits $5 trillion (less than half of Romney's), making him the more fiscally responsible president for all you deficit hawks out there. Check the Tax Policy Center for further facts.

OBAMA BIDEN 2012

BearDown...I totally agree. But the biggest problem is getting rid of the gatekeepers who bar the door to any new industries. You have a century of old business that isn't self-reliant. They cannot function profitably without total help from taxpayers. Without the constant infusion of our tax dollars, they would have failed a half century ago and they know it.

Look at it from the businessman point of view. Why should he pay his bills from the revenue he takes in when he can get taxpayers to bail him out with a landfill of exemptions, subsidies and tax breaks? So what he really does is call 100% of what he takes in as "profit". Then, when it's time to pay his bills he makes the consumers of his goods or services, taxpayers and even his employees kick in part of their incomes to do what his revenues should be doing first...paying his damn bills from what he takes in.

Wow......and you dont even know your talking point keep meeting each other in a perfect circle.

Candlewycke

That's a nice fantasy, but it's not how Romney got rich. First of all, he started with his father's connections and his own contacts from Harvard Business School. This got him hired by Bain and Company, which made him the director of its investment group, putting millions of dollars into his hands and a team of elite management executives to help him.

Given that start, I think even I could make make millions!

Furthermore, Romney "turned around" some companies by selling off their equipment and sending jobs overseas. In case you hadn't noticed, American companies have been reaping profits by making things cheaper in other countries for years. This may make one a successful businessman, but how does it help you become a job creating President?

Government is not not about building wealth. Big difference.

I am afraid that if elected Romney WILL repeat what he learned at Bain Capital:

1) Load the company (America) up with debt (tax cuts, military spending)

2) Extract the maximum amount of wealth for him and his investors (tax cuts for the wealthy)

3) Sell off the assets (privatize government functions)

4) Leave the workers and employees penniless and pension-less (entitlement reform)

That is a more likely scenario, and one which basically follows the economic plan on his website.

Candlewyke...I think you might want to ask the tens of thousands of midwesterners who lost their jobs thanks to Bain Capital how they felt about being unemployed. What's with the hoochie coos with moolah who think it's perfectly okay for some vulture venture capitalist like RoMONEY to come along and take their jobs so HE can profit from it?

I hate to inform you twerps of the right but in the USA, every American has the right to be self-reliant. How do you propose Americans do that when you've hotsy totsies angling to take their jobs away so they can hoard the profits in offshore tax free havens? Or don't you righties ever think things that far along? oh right...30-Second Profit and ROI or bust...Well? Bust then. Who cares.

I would tell every single one of them to get over it and move on. You people that live in this delusional dream world that suggests every company should never lay off anybody for any reason truly have no idea what business even is, much less how to run one. Executives must make decisions that are best for the company. Sometimes the company has made poor decisions and they get themselves into a financial mess, so instead of just closing the doors, they take drastic steps to survive. Sometimes such a mess has been made that the company has to be sold off. Are the employees going to get that money, of course they aren't, they never held any stock in the company, and never took on the risk that investors do. If you do not like those realities, start your own business, and see how far these fairytale ideals you hold actually get you!