Paraphrasing Mark Twain:

"The death of the Tea Party has been greatly exaggerated."

Out of 77 businessses that Bain Capital invested in, over a fifth of them either shut down or filed for bankruptcy by their eighth year.

You realize that around half of new businesses fail in the first three years? If Bain Capital has a 80% success rate that is amazingly successful. If you consider further that they were investing in troubled companies and they saved 80% of them I think if I was trying to discredit Mitt Romney I'd stop throwing this statistic around.

BTW What's the success rate for the Government investing in green enerdy companies?

JAS1, do you think the Libs here know that GM paid NO taxes in 2011?

In fact they won't pay taxes for several years while they continue to use $18 Billion dollars of losses, from the "Old GM" against their Tax burden due to a series of Treasury Dept Rulings in place since 2008.

Read this:

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20120504/AUTO0103/205040378/GM-rakes-big-profits-avoids-U-S-income-tax?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE

Where is the outrage?

President Obama did the right thing saving a huge part of the U.S. economy.

Even Republicans recognize the need to save DETROIT. President Bush put up the first few $Billions.

Any fool knows that loans take time to be paid back, and it IS being paid back with interest.

Backhouse, Detroit (the City) is about to go bankrupt.

Years of Democratic Corruption has led to the need for the state to step in.

Get our talking points straight.

BTW Do you understand how the stock thing works, cuz the USA still owns a big share of pretty wortheless, based on the initial cost, GM stock

It is the right wing that is in favor of minimal or no taxes for corporations.

Go ask Wall Street Koch Lobbyist, Grover Norquist.

WCA:

No one can possibly say whether no jo is lying. What she is doing is speculating. Even a right-wing ideologue like yourself should be able to find the humor in speculating about what Romney would do. This guy doesn't hold a position for more than 15 minutes.

As far as what anyone else would do in the future, who but a fool would dare suggest they could predict what will happen ten minutes from now, much less ten days, or ten months? If that were possible, we wouldn't even be discussing the GM issue, would we?

My goodness, WCA: you certainly got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning! Do you feel it all slipping away?

By the way, if GM paid no taxes, doesn't that get in the way of the usual lie from people such as yourself that corporate taxes are too high and are driving people out of business?

Hmmmm?

Now, do go out and enjoy the spring weather. All this anger is very bad for you.

Backhouse 1.17 -- Your use of statistics in your post is meaningless. Someone the other day talked about figures that lie and liars that figure. That is what we have here.

With your insider knowledge of the workings of this venture capitalist industry, can you comment on how many of these 77 companies would have gone bankrupt if no one invested in them?

On the bright side of all of this...

My wife has finally agreed to take sailing lessons. If we need to go to the Bahamas and live, as this country decides to plunge itself into the abyss, we'll have a shot.

Good luck all!!

David, didn't many believe Obama when he promised a 50% cut in the deficit, and an open administration, in his first term? We were the fools who believed the elected incompetent fool would unite the country. He is the most divisive politician in my long lifetime. In a way, I agree with your post.

Should be any moment Feisty. I do notice WCA has disappeared after being asked for evidence to support his ridiculous conspiracy theory.

Is there something in the water today? A full moon? The crazies are out in force.

First Read:

A new level of toxicity: Start tuning into Wisconsin if you haven't been already.

We're about to have a month of a knock-down, drag-out fight in like we've never seen. Tens of millions of dollars have already been spent on the June 5^th recall election, and millions more will be poured in before it's all said and done. What's happening in Wisconsin will highlight the toxicity and levels of anger in the country on both sides.

But in First Read's desperate struggle to maintain the obligatory false equivalency, they won't mention the fact the the most of those millions of dollars are pouring in from out of state from the Koch brothers and other corporate interests eager to see their Walker puppet maintain his grip on power.

Not satisfied that that was enough false equivalency for one article, First Read goes on with this: In the modern era (the 1960s and 1860s were pretty bad, too), this started with the Bill Clinton impeachment, then Bush v. Gore, increased use of filibusters on both sides, the Tea Party, ideological purges, compromise being a dirty word.

Once again, First Read doesn't want anyone to know that almost all of the increase in the use of the filibuster has been perpetrated by Republicans since the Democrats took control of the Senate in 2006.

And speaking of the 1860's, if our fearless First Read reporters had been around back then, they would have evenly distributed blame for the toxic politics of that era between the slaver drivers and the abolitionists.

What I find stunning about the State of West Virginia is the idea that a convicted felon currently serving time in prison could even get on the ballot in the first place. While ALEC and the GOP fusses about voter fraud without any evidence to support their fussing, a State allows someone currently in prison to run for President.

WV needs to investigate and review their election laws. As for conservatives trying to use WV as an example of trouble for President Obama, he did not win there in 2008 and he isn't likely to win there is 2012 either. It's a moot point the right is making but that won't stop them from making it.

White Collar Auto

Backhouse, GM still owes the taxpayers $30 Billion.

Get back to us when that is paid off.

Stiff Collar

You are repeating something a very demented, Republican old man, Senator Chuck Grassley, steady oozes out like when he pointed out that GM used TARP money to pay back its TARP debt.

That’s an opinion, and we’ll leave it to readers to agree or disagree with the senator.

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/general-motors-debt/

I wonder if your right wing friends know this?

It remains me of yesterday when some rightie call a Pell Grant free money because it's a loan.

FYI: Pell Grants aren't loans. Loans are paid back with interest. If the GOP has it's the interest doubles.

President Obama was expected to win the West Virginia primary, but not to be WITHIN 20 points TO A CONVICTED FELON SITTING IN FEDERAL PRISON IN ANOTHER STATE.

Looks like plenty of voters are willing to take a chance on a different crook, how can he be as bad as the one we've got right? "Hope" Obama gets the message and there is "change".

West Virginia is actually a pretty fascinating state when it comes to voting patterns. It is a reliably red state lately as far as Presidential elections are concerned. Their house delegation is split 2-1 for the GOP. However, they haven't had a GOP governor since the 1990's. And they haven't had a GOP senator since the 1950's. It really is the ultimate ticket splitting state.

You are trying to equate the fiscal condition of the City of Detroit and all its political news - with the Detroit Auto Industry.

There are automakers all over the country in or nearby cities, that are doing very well. We are recovering from the most catastrophic recession in 60 years.

American Automakers are thriving. YOU WANT THAT, OR NOT?

I guess for plain, sneering nastiness - your personal capacity knows no bounds.

I find tea party people to be rather nice, Now if you want to see rabid bats come to Detroit and attend a Obama union rally. Thats a vicious vitriolic group of people, (uaw-seiu-ibew and of course the local new black panther screamer in general Shabaz. Mr. Hoffa is the worst of them, he gets so worked up he spits all over him self and others around him. Backhouse I work for an auto and hang on to your hat, because your going to see the bottom fall out of the market for a few reasons. Europe is in a mess and our CEO predicts a 20 to 30% drop in cars sales there. China and Brazil are also going flat and will do good to keep even. NA stands alone and since people have bought a lot of new cars in the past 8 months that market will do good to stay even. You really do need to stick to something you know.

Jody

What I find stunning about the State of West Virginia is the idea that a convicted felon currently serving time in prison could even get on the ballot in the first place.

I thought the First Read reporters knew enough about politics to realize that the election would be a low turnout due to the fact that the incumbent president was running unopposed (by a serious candidate, at least). That's what obviously let an unknown nuisance candidate get 40% of the vote.

What was more remarkable is that there was one major state (I can't remember which) where Obama got more votes in an uncontested primary than Romney did when Santorum and Gingrich were still serious contenders. I don't recall that Read didn't picked up on that, either.

You Libs really show your ignorance of bankruptcy law. If GM and Chrysler hadn't been bailed out, here's what would have happened... First the companies would have been able to shed all of the ridiculous commitments that they've been forced to accept over the decades. Then, the viable pieces of the companies (Chevy, Cadillac, GMC, Buick on the GM side... probably Dodge trucks, Viper, and a way skinnied down Chrysler car division on the Chrysler side) would have been broken out separate and sold to investors. Non viable parts (Pontiac, Oldsmobile etc) would have been shut down just like they were and their assetts sold. That would have accomplished two key things... first, the individual parts would be leaner, more focused, and have new leadership. Second, 2/3 of the US auto industry wouldn't be under the gov't thumb (making overpriced, impractical crap like the Chevy Volt). Oh, and the unions wouldn't have gotten a big chunk of either... that was just robbery... Obama-style.

STexan

They also made only a passing, barely noticable reference to an interesting little article reported on Drudge where in the West Virginia Democratic Primary a serving convict received 40% of the vote with Obama only getting 60% ! While this is a clear and unmistakable indicator of how unpopular this administration is and would seem to be highly newsworthy, I see very little mention made about it here,Oh, I'm sure the failure of MSNBC or any other MSM outlet to report the story properly is a mere oversight which will be quickly corrected,.............yeah,....... right.

Now don't get me wrong, I believe in compromise.

Having read many of your posts, empirically it seems that you believe in compromise to the extent that people agree to do what you want. You're a prime example of what I call the "illiberal postulate": "Any right thinking person would think the way I do so anyone with a different opinion doesn't matter". For once, try putting yourself in the shoes of somebody on the other side. Assume, for once, that they really do mean well, that what they say is what they really, literally mean and it's not racist code language. Assume that other people's life experiences are just as real and just as valid as your own. That other people have hopes and aspirations for their kids and their decisions, which may be different than yours, are as right for them as yours are for you. And please, tone down the hate in your posts. You don't like W; I get that. But he isn't the devil incarnate and not everything is his fault. Finally, if you truly do want compromise, don't be so polarizing. It's great for your choir but if you truly want to help people it's counterproductive.

"However, that doesn't make them the sole responsibility holder for the piss poor state of our economy in Detroit,"

Oh but they're a HUGE part of it. I too grew up in Detroit and in a Liberal, union family. If that's all you know I guess you would embrace it. I left the area and came back in 2004 and it didn't even change a bit except for Pine Knob being called DTE Music Theater. I was exposed to both sides of the coin and both sides are f-ed up. Roads still suck, people are pissed off all the time and channel 4 news still starts off with ________— was murdered on the East Side/West Side.

except for Pine Knob being called DTE Music Theater.

It will ALWAYS be Pine Knob, you blaspheme when you call it DTE.

Paul,your talking about the entire country not just Detroit and it didn't happen over the last 3.5 years. This is a problem that has gone on for the last 40 years.

It always amazes me how the only one blamed is the last man standing in Politics. The biggest problem in politics is the failure to accept your part of responsibility for what has happened. Do you really think for one minute that the Tea Party is the answer or will they become the new problem. Look at the Middle East how does the Religious doctrine and radicaization work for them ? will this type of fractured government work for us?

I don,t think so. For the Republicans to be taken serious they need to accept responsibility for their screw ups and the same goes for the Democrats. We are seeing mad votes with no thought of consequences.

I suggest at the end of the political season their are going to be some very unhappy scared people

To those against the GM bailout, what was your alternative that would bring greater success. Of course parts of GM would have survived had it not been bought but did you ever think to who would buy them?

As far as outrage to the tax breaks, I have none. I do not differentiate the taxes and the money owed to taxpayers from the government's involvement. I believe GM will continue to be profitable and the debt will be paid. I will not let something so short term have effect on us receiving what is owed to us.

Alan, I agree with your comments on Romney if he truly did have an 80% turn around rate I am actually impressed. however the skills to turn around a business differ from those to turn around government. There is no profit motive in government and a lot of the work the government does though economical, cannot be measured financially.

Lastly the 60 minutes interview shocked me. I find it hard to believe he refused to use the word compromise. The state US politics is in is truly shaming.

JAS writes about GM: Makes it easy when you don't pay your vendors [Union contracts], you don't pay your bondholders [Social Security recipients], you cut your pensioners off at the knees by withholding their pensions and their benefits [again, reneging on Union contracts], don't pay any taxes [the rich], and take billions from the government to prop up your failed business model [tax cuts for the rich]. Too bad other failed businesses are not treated so gently.

Sounds like the Republican party platform to me.

Alan, NJ

Out of 77 businessses that Bain Capital invested in, over a fifth of them either shut down or filed for bankruptcy by their eighth year.

You realize that around half of new businesses fail in the first three years? If Bain Capital has a 80% success rate that is amazingly successful. If you consider further that they were investing in troubled companies and they saved 80% of them I think if I was trying to discredit Mitt Romney I'd stop throwing this statistic around.

But don't forget Bain was in business to evaluate and invest in VIABLE companies, not the losers. Bain was supposed to MAKE money, not to evaluate poorly and invest in losers. The statistic does mean something, unless of course Bain could also make money on losers too.

Backhouse you seem to be confused. You keep saying things like let Detroit go under. Detroit is going under.

See, this kind of confusion happens when you just parrot the talking points of the Liberal Blogs.

NDD - what conspiracy? I put a Detroit News link in my post.

BTW is there a difference between paying NO taxes and paying a fair corporate tax rate? Cuz, I'm pretty sure I am for the latter.

Get your nose out of Feisty the Cowards ass for a change and come up with an original thought.

Akeem,

I am not against the bailout but I am not happy at HOW it went down. Basically all bankruptcy laws were broken and the government handed the company to the same Union that was killing it in the first place then the government took ownership of what was left and screwed the bondholders who were supposed to be the first to get paid in one of the most tranparent political moves in history. (bought Union votes)

Bev see if one of your Lib friends can explain the GM/USA Stock transaction. Here is a link that explains why the US taxpayers will neve, ever break even on the bailout:

http://www.clickondetroit.com/money/automotive/Rattner-says-U-S-should-hold-GM-stock/-/2318858/12481292/-/7hqwn1/-/index.html

Until then you really ought to stop making a fool of yourself.

As American's we have enough to worry about without have to arm ourselves and ring our homes with barbed wire. Extremist have been around for some time, but they have come out of the wood work in droves since Obama won the right to run for president. Oil has gone down steadily since Obama called for an investigation into speculators. TEA-Republicans continue to block passage of bill preventing doubling of interest rates on student loans. Extremist TEA party ousts centrist Lugar and the confrontational-ist circle the wagons. America has been in flux since Obama was nominated to run against McCain. Extremism has flourished around the world as everyday Americans worry about the price of everything. The effort to oust the TEA-Republicans will be a heavy date and it will take everyone to act in November. It has been proven the TEA-Republicans will do whatever it takes to control locally. Extremist are banding together to continue their march on our rights and freedoms and to implement their skewed views onto unsuspecting peoples. The greatest political power is at the local level. Monies, power, influence and infrastructure policies are implemented at the local level, and the TEA-Republicans learned this well. “The revolution is working, we have infiltrated the Republican Party, and we will convert the Republican Party to defenders of liberty” - This statement was made at the TEA party meeting in Texas with Ted Cruz, Ron and Rand Paul and sends chill up my spine. "The concentration of wealth in the hands of fewer and fewer people and the concentration of power in stricter less compassionate hands." I agree with Carville - It ain't over till it's over! Get involved locally. That's where the real power lies. Vote straight Democratic Ticket! Effect a change! Make your voices heard! Get active locally - Get active at the state level - Get registered to vote - Vote - Get out the vote!

WCA and 96ws6

I understand what you are saying and though I will not refute it I will not agree. I am not a bankruptcy lawyers so I cannot say a law was broken. I am quite sure however, that if a law appeared to be broken the government probably used some mechanism to ensure that there was no actual law broken. That aside..

Regardless of how the events went down the end point is much better than what we were looking at before the deal. The bondholders were going to be screwed either way. I do not understand how you can see the tradeoff and not view it as a positive. To try and spin it as buying the Union vote again it cannot be refuted but I will not say it is fair either.

The two situations I have been presented with is that creditors get screwed or creditors get screwed LESS and everyone else completely (workers, government via taxes, economy would tank with all 3 going under, and also do not forget the ripple effects of that many people becoming unemployed at once). The government would still be paying many of these people through unemployment and other welfare programs.

So my opinion is regardless of your opinions on the favorable treatment of the union workers it would have to happen in a similar fashion.

WCA all that article said was that the share price would have to hit $51. It did not state how America will never make its money back, and I am not sure to what extent that analysis is done.

Ahhhhh, good Ole Liberal social meeting thread.

It is so nice to see so many Liberals here today, as usual, drinking a Mocha or two and eating donuts while posting canned talking points.

Yep, get on that bandwagon going "FORWARD" to meet Mr. Obama's recent campaign speech to GO BACK and target once again his 2008 campaign promises. Forward ? Looks like Mr. Obama's campaign is all backwards. However, no need to worry about more campaign promises.....Mr. Obama will be stopped in his Liberal tracks in 2012.

Talk about double-speak!!! Boehner should be told the definition of "compromise" IS "finding common ground."

These righties speak with forked tongues--black is white; white is black--how can they look in the mirror without laughing themselves silly?

Akeem,

Nice post. I appreciate a seemingly non-biased view. Like I said I was not against it but I would have preferred a loan that could be paid back in full with interest so GM could save face with taxpayers. When the Unions and government took ownership the taxpayers were guaranteed a screwing as well as bond holders. I doubt the stock will hit a level that will relieve taxpayers of their investment.

Fed Up-2683606 :

In your Auto B'ruptcy Fable, what would have happened to all the debt the companies owed? Were you talking 7 or 13? Even if they repay debt on a work out B'ruptcy not 100% of debt is paid back - what do you think that does to the economy? This was prevented by Obama's move and the $30B will be paid not 10% of it.

Gotta love the liberals. As things look worse for them approaching November they will attack with all types of vile language, etc. Now you talk of compromise, it must be looking bad for you. The only time you ever talk of compromising with anyone is when you are in the minority.

So Walker re-wins the GOP nomination in WI with almost as many votes as all the candidates in the DEM primary combined. The Dem candidate who wins wasn't the "Big Labor" candidate and didn't mention Walker's union reforms during the primary battle. Obama barely beats an inmate by 20 points in WV. A Tea Party favorite trounces an entrenched incumbent in Indiana, which has been getting redder the last few years. The right to work state where the Dems are hosting their convention just voted to define marriage as only between a man and a woman. Obama continues to ride the fence on Gay Marriage.

Why are we talking about Boehner? Spin, spin, spin from the left.

The right has no need to spin today. Facts are what they are, it was a great day for conservatives yesterday.

Obama tanking in WV couldn't have anything to do with his "All of the Above" approach, which conspicuously leaves out coal. Workers in Eastern Ohio will get the picture as well.

FORWARD!

LOL So they picked the lesser criminal.

What's funny is that the more it becomes obvious that Obama isn't a sure win, the nastier as more fearful the posts here on newsvine get.

It's really really funny.

Ah, apparently either Republicans are really upset about being called Koran loving Al-Quaeda, or Democrats are really upset about being called farm robbing Stalinists...

...or both!

Whichever way, I declare victory.

Two comments:

First... Folks we ARE talking about WV remember????? Enough said

Second... Have you guys ever heard of cross-over voting when one party knows their candidate already has it in the bag? Happens all the time. Why not vote in the Dem primary to make Obama look bad... nothing to lose, a lot to gain with the publicity.

Paraphrasing Mark Twain:

"The EXISTENCE of the Tea Party has been greatly exaggerated. "

Akeem the analysis has been done by several different parties.

The catch here is that GM stock will never get to $51. Look up the "Car Czar's' position. He says sell in 2013-14. Conveniently after the election. If the government sold today Obama would most definitely be toast.

End of the day, the taxpayers are going to pay big for the bailout.

Mr Fids, please address that post to Sen. Lugar. He seems to disagree with you.

The real winner in the auto bailout was the unions. Those unions would never have fared so well in bankruptcy court, which is why Obama pushed through the bailout. Union boss Richard Trumka spends a lot of time visiting the White House, and with the sweetheart deal he procured from the bailout he seems to have Obama in his back pocket.

Sarah-3043284
Jody, Et Al.,

You know how they discuss voter "blocs", like women, blacks, Latinos, gays???? Well I'm pretty sure the convict dude was able to wrap up at least the "Shi* for Brains" and the "Oh My God, a Black Dude's President, We're All Gonna Die", blocs.

I'm keeping track. Lib race card 133 today.

wives fan -- please confirm that you are insulting and demeaning the entire population of West Virginia with your comment. If so, I wonder if Robert Byrd is turning over in his grave?

I assume you are speculating about the crossover vote and if not can you provide your source?

Thanks

I know I have heard that number before. I am just not sure how it was calculated... did it just divide the purchase prise by the number of stcok, are there dividends? I am honestly not sure, I guess I wll do the reasearch on my own.

Also nothing is certain in the economy, also the experts do not KNOW what will happen. They don't always have it right, they simply get it wrong less as far as the stock market goes.

the taxpayers are going to pay big for the bailout.

Oh! Heaven forbid "taxpayers" should "pay" for any of the amenities our government provides for the protection and comfort of the citizens WCA;

this premise is the number one reason your tea party is unsustainable. You all want the things YOU use, but don't want the government to spend for the things others use or need (medicaid/medicare, universal health coverage, soc. sec., etc., etc. etc.)

Assinine to say the least - yet here your are, promoting your indefensible postion.

Compromise is not losing. Compromise is conceding some points in order to gain other points. It IS finding common ground. That Boehner can't bring himself to follow the established principles of government is shocking. Government is about advise and consent.

That Mourdock from Indiana sees his role "not as legislator, but as proselytizer" puts him completely out of touch with government as well. That the country chooses to send these kinds of people to public office is beyond shocking. It is unconscionable.

People confuse government with idelogy and theocracy. ANd we condemn the Islamic world for this. Amazing.

Hey Cruz

The revolution is working, we have infiltrated the Republican Party, and we will convert the Republican Party to defenders of liberty

How much fear can bring this statement from TEA-Republicans , to the leftiest who want to take away our personal freedom, because that is the only way they can impose their ideology.

Democrats have 14000 signatures demanding to move their convention from NC after the slap on the face to liberal Democrats and Obama. Democrats blame to rednecks NASCAR fans , however african Americans in majority vote for marriage= man +woman.

Federal inmate's sizable West Virginia presidential vote tally

"Judd only needs 15% of the vote to qualify for at least one delegate at the Democratic National Convention in Charlotte, North Carolina this summer, according to The Charleston Gazette. His expected release date is June 24, 2013, according to the Federal Bureau of Prisons....

The Mountain State's Democratic Gov. Earl Ray Tomblin and junior Sen. Joe Manchin have also recently distanced themselves from the president ahead of their 2012 elections."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/09/federal-inmates-sizable-west-virginia-presidential-vote-tally/?hpt=hp_bn5

How funny is it that Democrats who pander for the votes of other criminals now find themselves competeing with them?

P.S.

Judd will fit in perfectly amongst the other vermin at the DNC.

Everybody knows that if you tax a company they just pass it along in higher prices to cover the cost. IF you dont know that you know nothing about business. The dems. talks about "big business" as demons because they make a profit. The gov. taxes the oil industry MORE than the industry makes in "profits" and they call them evil. The only thing the gov. does is tell them (and all businesses) what they can & cant do. THEY produce nothing!!!

OH BTW Fiesty...I like the pic. you have. You know the one that sayes "dumb fux"? It would describe you and your liberal friends perfectly if it read "dumb ugly fux"! I mean PERFECTLY!!!

haha! Give any company FIFTY BILLION and I could "save" it too! And by the way... How much of GM is owned by Fiat now? If you fall for the "I saved GM" tag line you are a moron.

Feisty dead head

What the hell does your opening statement/cut and paste job, have anything to do with this story? Proof once again that you wait for the email or text cue and then jump on a story just to propagandize. The same bull shi$ you posted a while back and it's got nothing to do with this story. Considering this story had multiple topics one would think you could stay within any of them, but nooooo, you've got your orders and you're on your mission. You should just start each thread with "Romney Sucks" and leave it at that. It's about all your doing anyway and you'll get just as many minion votes.

If you would actually come up with an intelligent argument or comment about the story at hand it would be a miracle...ahhh but we can all hope...for change.

This just proves that not every dem thinks barack is the chosen one like you and your minions do. Hell, 60/40 against a convict. That's precious..and you guys get all wet pantied that Romney doesn't carry states by 80% or more. This is a sitting president in a democrat primary for God's sake. Yeah, I already know...the republicans sabotaged the vote right? By 40% right? Because they got 40% of the opposing voting public to register dem right?

Ahhh, Feisty...So when you went from volunteer to paid how did that work? Did they approach you or did you beg them. How does one proclaim their loyalty to barack, is it through a blood oath, blood sacrifice, or just a vow to never take off the blindfold? Where are you going next to whine about Boehner, a story about the Indy 500? I'll tell you one thing; you are definitely more transparent than barack could ever dream to be.

If your constituency elects you to vote a certain way ( a veritable mandate) and you cave in and vote differently. Dont you think your constituency has a right to vote you out. People in some of the states that went Rep. in 2010 did so for a reason. And yesterday was a small reminder, no one expects you or other people in other states to like it. But the elected official needs to pay attention or next election they will pull a Lugar on you!

Rightwing...I know what I posted earlier has nothing to do with the story either but hey, i'm just following lead. As usual it splinters out to all corners.

Why doesn't anyone on the left want to talk about Wisconsin today? Let me set the stage. Current Governor Scott Walker faced a no name democrat running on the republican ticket in the recall primary, in short there was no chance of scott being defeated in the primary so motivation on the republican side should have been light to mild at best. As it turned out, if you added the votes of all candidates running against Scott Walker, they got about 64,000 (4.8%) more in total than Walker. Of the 690,128 votes cast against Walker, this amounts to about 70% of those who signed the recall petitions. My point in all of this is, it looks as though the republicans are far more motivated to turn out than the recall supporters. Keep in mind no one believed Scott would be seriously challenged in the primary so why bother to show up, but show up they did. I stand by my prediction Scott Walker wins the recall race in June by 5-10% over Tom Barnett.

Akeem,

As far as outrage to the tax breaks, I have none. I do not differentiate the taxes and the money owed to taxpayers from the government's involvement. I believe GM will continue to be profitable and the debt will be paid. I will not let something so short term have effect on us receiving what is owed to us.

GM has not changed a bit since the bailout. The are still offering 0% financing, rebates, and subsidized leases. Add this to the cost of Cadillac (no pun intended) health insurance plans for union workers of approximately $1500 a vehicle and it is inevitable that they will again be asking for a bail-out or, God forbid, we allow them to go bankrupt.

@White Collar

Did you notice how eloquently and articulately Feisty rebutted you? She, as usual, didn't say squat! She NEVER rebuts an opposing position. It's getting to be comical with that broad. She will say, "ohh that's way to easy to kick you're mental ass" or "you couldn't hold a candle to me" or "that's because your teabag mind can't handle it" or whatever stupidity she comes up with but you will never, ever, as in NEVER get her to give you back any kind of logical, stop you in your tracks argument. She just proved it to you once again.

If she's not copying something from think progress, move on, CBS, or maybe the NYT, it doesn't exist in her little mind. I've said it before, she needs to chill on the purple hair dye because I'm concerned it's seeping through her skull and affecting her sense of reason. Oh well, I guess you can just chalk it up to the daily email directives from her handlers.

Feisty, you still loving all this attention from your "admirers"? Because there seems to be a trend developing.

There’s a difference between being evenly divided and polarized. In the modern era (the 1960s and 1860s were pretty bad, too), this started with the Bill Clinton impeachment, then Bush v. Gore, increased use of filibusters on both sides, the Tea Party, ideological purges, compromise being a dirty word.

Hmmmmm, they bring up the Tea Party but not the occupiers? Talk about polarizers the occupiers have it in spades over the Tea Party. I don't recall where the Tea Party tried to blow up any bridges. The left must be extremely nervous about the rising strength of the Tea Party. As with most things the pendulum is starting to swing back towards sanity. Thank God!

I've also noticed a lot more attempts at obfuscation and misdirection on the part of the usual Radical Left Wing Liberal/Progressive Wack Job suspects on here. None of the topics are being addressed by them. They're bringing up John Boehner and other Tuesday morning meeting talking points. I'd laugh but it's actually kinda sad.

I didn't realize a Felon from Prison can vote yet be put on a ballot for president?

Perhaps you people on both sides of this unseemly discussion don't realize that you are on the road to another civil war. When ever you have only black and white discussions with no room to compromise then you are on the road to escalation of armed conflict. If we continue this all it will need is a spark and the conflagration will be lit and we will all suffer because of a few radical and stubborn fools who care for nothing except their own ideas and compromise be damned.

TrueTexan,

Following the lead is one thing, like responding to anyone's post. The topic will naturally end up circling the globe in most instances. But when someone leads and just plops down some irrelevant propaganda? Lame at best. Her ego gets the best of her.

We all know the republicans want to make barack a one termer. I certainly do, and I want him to fail miserably because the "change" that he wanted to bring to the country myself and 10's of millions of others feel is monumentally detrimental to this country. So am I supposed to route for the guy who wants to tear down my house? Hell no! Failure to barack is success to the country.

Okay, speaking of getting off point I went on a rant there but I guess I was speaking to her redundant point that she has posted numerous times. Bottom line, you're right...these things splinter but #1 post shouldn't.

Ed

Excellent point. However you are going to need a microphone bigger than the presidents to get that message out. It's in the playbook, the playbook that most on this site refuse to read. Get the masses in disagreement, refuse to lead them to common goals, come off looking like you're the victim even though you're the "organizer" and then when things really go to hell who will be there to step in? The elite ruling class and an open invitation to the UN. If anyone out there who voted for him actually studied who he is and wants to debate that with factual information I'm all eyes. Race-baiting American Girl will just shout "you lie" but if anyone with a brain wants to go please do so.

Ed, again, you've got the best point on the entire newsvine right now. It's true and it's very sad but this president is a divider. It's what he's taught as a lecturer, it's what he's done as an "organizer" and it's what he was taught to do throughout his life. I hope one day it will get back to a little more unity myself but for now it's not looking good.

If this country doesnt get its financial house in order you could be right ed. We could go by the way of the old soviet union and some of the states splintering off. I'm not saying I am for it, just saying I can see that happening if we as a nation go belly up. IF ob gets back in for another term I believe it could happen. HE is (I believe) trying his level best to bring this nation to its knees.

Rightwing, which of Obama's policies would effect you so catastrophically that it will "tear down your house"? And I mean personally. Which policy and how does that result come about. l you are passionate and this should not be difficult.

No one ever lost -

Was it Barnum of "Barnum and Bailey" before my time but this fellow Barnum I think no to worry of success for the carnival of which he was all in. Well as I read this article I could not help think of this saying attributed I believe Barnum.

Well this Barnum, upon starting his carnival clowns and so forth, with all the confidence in the world reportedly said "do not worry for the success of our illusions and the willing public to pay for them, never forget in America there is a sucker born every minute". I probably have it wrong in the exact sense but even if so the premise stands uncontested...game over.

These people living in this area leave me confused poor food stamp debtor states...well never under-estimate the American citizen above all remember this never under-estimate the intelligence of Americans in these cretins of this area we have profiled them most all from debtor Bible thumpers and far right Neo Cons all desperately looking for Carl Rove and the check book...more on that later...from CA...bye

PS: never bet against the stupidity of the Bible Belt states you know nearly everyone mired in dire poverty yet love the tea-baggan propaganda that will take their lunch away but don't tell let them dream they are part of the elite - yes dream on.

Have you ever noticed how the left whines and complaines when things are done the "democratic" way (by vote)? But thinks they are in the right when they have a liberal judge over turn a constitutionaly passed, voted on and passed law (as in california, tried in AZ.)? They dont care about whats right or constitutional. Just how THEY want it to be. We, as the American people, dont want their version of "health care reform", OR the bail outs, among others, but WE GOT 'EM!!

Persevere...Right up to the end I thought you were talking about the dimwitted democRATS. But now I see you dont know what you are talking about. ONLY the people with their hand out for a gov. gimme will vote dem. So you obviously have no clue of what you are saying.

"President Obama was expected to win the West Virginia primary, but not to be WITHIN 20 points TO A CONVICTED FELON SITTING IN FEDERAL PRISON IN ANOTHER STATE."

Does this mean that we will soon be hearing the strains of: "Hail To The Thief" in place of that other song?

Akeem,

The "my house" was a metaphor so I hope you're not being literal but even if you are I'll address one thing. I will concur that Bush was a spending idiot. But if that's the case than barack is the anti christ of spenders. The FACT is that he increased our debt more than all other presidents combined. That's not a talking point it's fact and it's alarmingly concerning. Now our debt is greater than our GDP. If you know anything at all about economics that's not a good thing. Our debt will compound with the service on our debt and if it's not already too late, in no time at all when compounding those types of figures it could certainly all come down like a house of cards.

The ones who don't think that couldn't happen are the ones who don't know anything about world history. So if it all comes down which we are a blink away from it happening, everyone will be affected and when everyone is affected it could bring what little I have down and thus bring my house down with it. I could go on and on and on about the debt because people really don't seem to get it.

The problem is that barack seems to hang huge blame on the rich tax rates? Really? We could take every dime that those making more than 200k make and have and it will buy us a few days of government service. So any logical and average IQ person should be able to see that taxing the rich is a nice divisional technique to keep us off topic. Which would lead to my next issue about division which I will gladly address how it affects you me and everyone if you'd like.

The healthcare bill is a mystery to most. To me it's not. It's my business, I know it, I've literally got a copy in front of me and I've studied it. The things to come in the bill are going to be so devastating to this countries health and financial system and nobody including the brain child pelosi has a clue of the destructive things that are to come. That idiot signed it not for the good of the country but for chest pounding bragging rights to say "I did it". It's a debacle and again, I'll elaborate if you'd like but not going to write a novel right now. People always compare to Canada. Well Canada is now allowing private practice doctors to set up shop because of the shortage of good care. We also have 10 times the population as them, that's a little harder to manage you know.

But what do you think is going to happen when private practice doctors come back on line in Canada? Competitive and better treatment, then insurance to help pay those private practice doctors, then they will revolve right back to the better system which is kind of where we are right now. We need to rebuild the health care system a step at a time. The egomaniac didn't want to do that and I pray it comes back to haunt him to the 10th power.

Picture this. If you were around 1,000 years before Christ and I said you could spend 1 million dollars per day. You would have just reached the 1 Trillion dollar mark. Don't be a fool and just ignore that example. Think about it...now we've got 15 times that amount and we OWE it! FIFTEEN TIMES! It will soon be 16 by the election. Do I really need to say more? Yeah, Bush spent a lot of money, he wasn't the only one to blame but barack is off the frickin rails and doesn't repent or address it at all.

So if you think the fiscal issues aren't going to "bring some houses down" you're sadly mistaken. You're right, stating something wasn't that difficult and I'll gladly go off on multiple examples of how his actions could bring the house down of this country if you'd like. You asked for one and I gave you two. Government is meant to assist, not provide, it's meant to protect not restrain.

*Hope for change, anyone but barack 2012*

Re. "coastal elites" --

Elitist. n. One sufficiently arrogant to presume to determine who is elitist. See FOX "news" cesspool anti-elitist elitists. See "mainstream media" pundits posing as journalists generally.

Akeem,

One more thing, as it pertains to his swansong, the health care reform act. I'm going to qualify my next point with a couple of things. First I am not wealthy, to be honest I get by but I have larger dreams and aspire to get there. It's nice to know that people can do it in this country...for the moment. I am not an insurance executive but I am in the health insurance industry. If the bill goes through I'm out of a job in 2014 and no there won't be another one to take it's place. How's that for tearing down a house? Does that simplify the long previous post? So his costly ego will directly cause me to be out of a gig.

You want to tell me how getting 30 million people insured is going to take your job away? Unless your job is to keep folks from being insured and if so I hope you do lose your job. Any aspect of health care will be in for a bonanza with this reform act. You are gulping the kool aid.

Repuplickers lie as a matter of course. They can't do otherwise. Stupid repuplickers believe and repeat the lies. In theory, they could do otherwise, but their superstitions and bigotries prevent that (see auto and tex).

Even in this context, Romney is the Liar Non-pariel. When he's not lying about Obama, he guy lies about what he said last week, last month, last year and every year preceding that. The depth of the corruption enveloping the republicker filth is truly unbelievable. It would take a machine far more advanced than Cameron's sub to reach bottom.

So our health care system is so good that the other industrial countries are copying our system? We are so low down on the social development scale that most thinking people are looking for a way to solve our problems. The privatised business of our Health care has shown itself to be too expensive and inefficient .That is why people are looking at other solutions to it's problems. One doesn't look to change success. Yes, the insurance adjusters may have to cover other insurance concerns,but coopers had to find other jobs and ditch diggers no longer are employable. The Ruler's of industry are not helping this country to become employed tax payers, but they don't care,in the main. Employees are not laying themselves off. Our education system is not of the best, but it is not because of our teachers yet.It is because of the no child left behind philosophy .That is a political scheme which could only come from political interference. The Articles of the Constitution recognise that our representatives are human and often make mistakes. that is why we have amendments .

RON PAUL To the White House 2012

So Obamas crowds are 4 times bigger than Romneys.. Well lets look at a compilation video of the Romney crowds first because I've seen bigger crowds at burger king. I DARE YOU TO LOOK AT THESE 2 SHORT VIDEOS and tell me what you really think is going on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zYhxaeiNyBI

Here is what the winner and leader of the elections crowd looks like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2e_FUy-3eo

RNC Rule 38 .. Romney has how many delegates?? LOL

No one from primary states are bound in the first round.. The media lied for to long and the jig is up.. It was all a beauty pagent and the election has just now officialy began..

Donkeyhotie

Better yet. Since you know the bill so well and are basically calling me a liar why don't don't you dazzle us and explain to me how the bill will get 30 million people insured? No don't, because if that's what you think you don't shi$ about the bill.

It says everyone has to buy health insurance. If you don't buy it you'll have to pay a penalty at tax time. So that means everyone WONT have health insurance. The penalty is a tiny fraction of what it will cost for the coverage. Rates are going to skyrocket because everyone will be guaranteed insurable so as warm and mushy as that sounds it's not financially feasible. Companies will raise rates quickly and justifiably because of the 80/20 medical loss ratio (look it up). Then more and more people will drop out of the system because they can't afford it but they will still be guaranteed so if something bad happens they can still get insurance. Meanwhile the prices will continue to rise because there won't be as much revenue coming into the system and costs to provide coverage to the "sick" people will exponentially grow. It's by design so when the major insurance carriers are dropping like flies guess who will presumably save the day? Save the day is not what will be happening.

Sweetheart, no matter what barack tells you 30 million people will not have heath care. If it were that way they'd have it now. Those who can't afford it still won't be able to afford it so you and every other lib headline reader please for the love of God read the bill, ask someone why has or stop thinking that it's some prize from heaven. It's a cluster Fu#$!

I lose my job because a regulated license will no longer be necessary to represent the companies and exchanges will take over. You think health insurance is confusing now? Just wait 'til there are a couple of online chat-help meatballs trying to instruct you on how the system works. Tell you what, explain to me medicare part A,B,advantage,D,E,F,HDF, That is a government healthcare system except it's paid for and it still costs people money. The average medicare suppliment still costs people around $150 per month. Most people who don't have regular insurance aren't willing to pay that much let alone the $400 + that it will cost in 2014. I can explain every one of those medicare programs to you but people like me will be gone. More than 1,000 companies have gotten waivers from the government saying they don't have to participate. Why? If it's so frickin' wonderful why do over 1,000 companies not have to play along? I'll tell you why, because they said it will bankrupt them and barack knows damn well that they're right.

Any more questions because the piece of Shi$ is over a thousand pages long and there's lots more I can discuss if you'd like. Oh yeah and I hope you really love Katherine Sebelius because there are dozens and dozens of things that the Secretary of health and human services has the final say in...and each one of those things are labled "as the Secretary deems necessary". Are you kidding me? This is a frickin' US law that gives one person subjective power over many crucial elements in the health care system. You guys are okay with that huh? You want to tell me how that's not troubling, no matter who it might be. I guess that's why liberalism is on the same side as dictatorships on the political and conservatism is on the opposite side.

So far you noted the Health Care Act, as it pertains to your job, if true, that would be valid. The other points you make about health care don't really back your point. The cost of Healthcare is increasing at an extreme rate and to do nothing about it would go against your first point on spending and debt.

We both agree Bush spent a large amount of money. If you take away the carry over from spending that began with issues Bush created the spending increase is not as large. Yes, it still exist but a lot of the big costs such as the war, tax breaks and Medicare part D cannot be attributed to President Obama's policies. You could make the argument he could have ended all of these but none of those topics would be popular amongst Americans. Ending the war so abruptly would only prove the spending was a waste. No one wants tax increases especially in a recession. Increases the burden of senior citizens is not a popular issue either. So like I said it is not HIS policies that are causing you ruin. He is not evil, much of what you say against him is exaggeration and that is my point. Obama's policies are not dramatically changing your life stop saying it is. A great majority of your problems can be blamed on politicians in general, or congress as a whole they are bipartisan. When you focus in on Obama and say anyone but him as if your issues would magically disappear it sounds foolish and ignorant.

James, by your post, you reinforce my previous post. I'm no Byrd fan so he can turn in his grave all he wants.

Secondly, you know as well as I do, that you can't prove voter cross-over. Did I say for sure it happened? No. I said it happens all the time and COULD have happened in this case. How did the guy get the money to register???? Gee, guess a con can collect money from selling cigs or washing dishes, etc, but I DOUBT he personally came up with thousands to register... so tell me who DID pay the money. Do ya THINK it was someone trying to get publicity for being anti obama???

Well Damage, there seems to be a concerted strategy by the Libs R Us crowd to collapse your posts in record time.

Guess we will have to remeber that the next time Feisty goes off on her "Collapse Cowards" rant.

Kind of a shame, but congratulations on getting so very far under their skin.

Calling you out, WCA: evidence for your post at 2.2?

No need to collapse those posts. EVERYONE should see them. Makes people ashamed to be of the same party.

Collapsed posts are the most interesting posts, I look at all of them. If some idiot wants to collapse them, do they realize they are calling more attention to the posts? Just wondering if others check out the collapsed posts a I do. I do not collapse posts, I think it is a stupid act.

Kind of a shame, but congratulations on getting so very far under their skin.

And this says EVERYTHING about who and what you are WCA. A mindless angry irrational ideologue just like Damaged. Credibility is zero. Personality is zero. Opinion is worthless. If you think supporting that kind of hate does something to enhance your credibility you're wrong. If you think it will convince the half of the country that doesn't support your views, you're wrong, it just hardens the will to work against the type of people who think and act like Damage does. Congratulations, you're now not only riding in his boat of hate, you're rowing the damn thing.

Wow! Damage you are on today. Keep it up.

Even the stalwart Senator Lugar could not get through to the crazies in the Republican Party.

Obama/Biden 2012

I am a republican in Indiana and have voted here for some 32 years. I am probably typical of many voters here who began to realize that we have had someone representing our state (Dick Lugar) who hasn't lived here since the 1970s. That's a long long time to NOT live here, and yet claim to represent us. Add to that the fact that he voted to confirm Obama's liberal justices, as well as "compromising" on several other things that conservatives hold dear, and republicans just felt it was time for a change. There is nothing wrong with wanting a senator to represent us who actually LIVES here! There is nothing wrong with wanting a senator to represent us who shares more of our core values. I applaud the people of Indiana for bucking the trend of the status quo and saying, "If you want to represent us, then BE one of us!"

Ex felon was 20 points behind Obama in W. VA! I guess the bigger criminal prevailed!

I agree Bruce, Indiana did what they had to do, Lugar had lost touch with his constituents a long time ago!

True, maybe people aren't in the business of changing peoples minds on this website, we leave that to the inane politicians that are in control of this country and are being controlled by big business and corporate money. Damage, you're a special kind a stupid, a special kind of troll, and, if not a troll, then a special kind of reactionary prick. @!$%# everyone that buys into the sandbox that has been constructed for us to play around in. People need to quit buying into what reactionary @!$%#heads such as Rush Limbaugh are saying and what phony liberals such as Ed and Lawrence are promising. They're all in it for the current system, and they're profiting off of it.

To the other Ron+ numbers

Great post and I think it bears repeating:

Alan, NJ

Out of 77 businessses that Bain Capital invested in, over a fifth of them either shut down or filed for bankruptcy by their eighth year.

You realize that around half of new businesses fail in the first three years? If Bain Capital has a 80% success rate that is amazingly successful. If you consider further that they were investing in troubled companies and they saved 80% of them I think if I was trying to discredit Mitt Romney I'd stop throwing this statistic around.

Bain’s modus operandi was to invest in companies, leverage them up with debt, and then sell them off for scrap, allowing Bain’s investors to walk away with huge profits while the companies in which Bain invested wound up in bankruptcy, laying off workers and reneging on benefits.

Last week, Reuters profiled one company, Worldwide Grinding Systems, that went belly up after Bain invested in it. The company not only lost 750 jobs, but the federal government had to come in to bail out its pension fund, while Bain walked away with millions in profits.

And according to an analysis by the Wall Street Journal, this was far from an isolated incident. In fact, 22 percent of the companies in which Bain invested wound up either in bankruptcy or shutting their doors entirely, while Bain itself has made billions of dollars for its investors:

The Wall Street Journal, aiming for a comprehensive assessment, examined 77 businesses Bain invested in while Mr. Romney led the firm from its 1984 start until early 1999, to see how they fared during Bain’s involvement and shortly afterward.

Among the findings: 22% either filed for bankruptcy reorganization or closed their doors by the end of the eighth year after Bain first invested, sometimes with substantial job losses. An additional 8% ran into so much trouble that all of the money Bain invested was lost. [...]

The Journal analysis shows that in total, Bain produced about $2.5 billion in gains for its investors in the 77 deals, on about $1.1 billion invested. Overall, Bain recorded roughly 50% to 80% annual gains in this period, which experts said was among the best track records for buyout firms in that era.

Adding insult to injury, Bain would hide its profits in tax havens, not even paying the rate it was supposed to on the profits it made laying off workers.

All said I believe you are stating Bain has an 80% success track record when in fact that 80% pertains to profit made through destructive leverage buyouts.

Obama 2012

Anyone who comes to this site for anything but the Humor is really missing the point of this site.

Come on folks, don't let people offend you. It gives them power over you and you should not want that.

JAS writes about GM: Makes it easy when you don't pay your vendors [Union contracts], you don't pay your bondholders [Social Security recipients], you cut your pensioners off at the knees by withholding their pensions and their benefits [again, reneging on Union contracts], don't pay any taxes [the rich], and take billions from the government to prop up your failed business model [tax cuts for the rich]. Too bad other failed businesses are not treated so gently.

Sounds like the Republican party platform to me.

Alan, NJ

Out of 77 businessses that Bain Capital invested in, over a fifth of them either shut down or filed for bankruptcy by their eighth year.

You realize that around half of new businesses fail in the first three years? If Bain Capital has a 80% success rate that is amazingly successful. If you consider further that they were investing in troubled companies and they saved 80% of them I think if I was trying to discredit Mitt Romney I'd stop throwing this statistic around.

But don't forget Bain was in business to evaluate and invest in VIABLE companies, not the losers. Bain was supposed to MAKE money, not to evaluate poorly and invest in losers. The statistic does mean something, unless of course Bain could also make money on losers too (and shift any legacy costs - like pensions- onto the government).

Ron in Seattle - you clearly don't know the rules the GOP follows on this site - no real facts - just anything that will support Romney (since he needs all the support he can get). Great post by the way.

I don't think anyone in the Democratic Party was counting on WVA but - ya still never know. When it's between Obama and Romney they may realize that voting for Romney is like voting for death!

JAS - your usual nonsense. Do you and Damaged collaborate on what ridiculous stupidity to post each day?

Obama/Biden 2012

That looks alot like Jerry. But you seem more like a Ted kind of guy.

to the guy that said In Senator Dick Lugar didn't live there anymore. Well the next guy wont either. We need national laws that only let anyone serve 2 terms. Maybe we need to just let them serve on 6 year term. That might get the corruption out of out government. Change is a good thing something. Letting these people stay in office for such a long time isn't a good thing. New blood is good. but not to long and he will be just like the guy he beat out.

DrowningGrover
Ex felon was 20 points behind Obama in W. VA! I guess the bigger criminal prevailed!

he's not an exfelon, he's currently in jail, i.e., a felon.

In addition, I think it's safe to assume that had the WV ballot read:

"(a) Obama

(b) any white dude"

candidate (B) would have polled really well. It IS west virginia.

Just sayin'...

When all else has so pitifully failed, libs go to the last resort, their alway trusty race card.

,'-D

I love when Fisty gets all worked up.

WCA: "congratulations on getting so very far under their skin."

That's all ya got? Hell, even a blood-sucking tick can do that!!!

However, if you don't have facts or truth on your side--I guess irritating others is your last resort. Talk about treasonous behavior!

When all else has so pitifully failed, libs go to the last resort, their alway trusty race card.

It's not the "race card" when it's true. Or are you going to deny that racism exists in West Virginia even as a JAILED FELON with no presented political platform gets 40% of the vote against an INCUMBENT PRESIDENT?

Come on now, if the shoe fits...

I'm sure Obama's policies had something to do with at least one vote?

Y'all do understand that West Virginia is still fighting the Civil War don't you?? I've actually had people from there say to me "Are you from Ohia? We don't have much use for people from Ohia.." I'm from Kentucky...

Another great day for Mitt Romney - he was NOT in the news! So far, Romney has successfully kept his Clintonesque liberalism hidden in the closet. Congratulations Mitt - keep avoiding the good work - it's the American 'free enterprise' way to do things.

Anyone happen to notice that the US economy has improved every time a Republican candidate 'suspends' their campaign?

Anyone happen to notice the financial markets take a dump every time a TEA Party candidate is given an 'important' election?

Yesterday's message to voters - if you don't do crap to participate - then crap is exactly what you will get.

Bruce: There is nothing wrong with wanting a senator to represent us who shares more of our core values

And yet, the guy you just voted for to replace Lugar says he's not going to Washington to legislate, he's going to proselytize. How is that representing you or anyone else in Indiana?!

I'm sure Obama's policies had something to do with at least one vote?

I'm sure they did as well, especially in a coal producing state. But that doesn't change the fact that racism also comes into play.

You are in denial. Most voters vote their wallets. Obama very publicly wants to kill coal. Is Joe Manchin a racist?

"To be eligible for the ballot, all Judd needed to do was pay a $2,500 filing fee and fill out a “notarized certification of announcement,” along with meeting other residency and age requirements.

Both West Virginia’s Democratic and Republican primaries, it should be noted, are open to independent voters."

Question: Now how could a guy in jail get his hands on $2,500 and how would he get anywhere to pay the filing fee to be a candidate, AND how could he get ahold of notary all while he's in jail?

Answer: Some 1%er in WV thought it would be a pretty funny gag, and so did some other folks who went along with the joke. Haha.

Obama/Biden 2012

A 1% in West Virginia. Now that is rich!

Come on American Girl you are embarrassing yourself again.

Either West Virginians are backward racist hicks without a pot to piss in or they are rich, which is it?

I happen to know. I know several millionaires from West Virginia. Apparently squeezing money and saving can cause your bank account to grow. Maybe the Envirocrats of the Democan't party could learn a thing or two from those hillwilliams.

Now all BS aside. The article interviews people who said they would vote for anyone but Obama and they were proclaimed democrats (which means they registered as Democrats in the state.)

THAT WAS A PROTEST VOTE AND A BIG MESSAGE TO OBAMA!!! Nothing more.

Ron, two things to think about.

1. Are we supposed to be angry with what Romney does with his money or what Obama does with ours?

2. If what Bain did was so bad why do you praise Obama for doing the same with GM?

You do know that WV was a northern state and was formed because the people there did not want to break away from the Union.

I'm from WV and most of you insulting the state most likely have never been there. Grow the eff up. They voted for the felon because they were making a statement, the end.

@Damage123

"not condemning someone who said Obama is a "traitor."

If someone is doing things to try and marginalize the country, make it weaker in the world and less of a power. Then tops it off by BOWING to a foreign leader? That person is a traitor. Bowing is not a sign of respect at all. It is a sign of submission to a more powerful element. barack, representing the US bows to a king (of oil) and those same jack-asses who cry about the title will be silent little sheep when it comes to something like that.

Keep the faith...there's plenty of it here you've just got to weed through the ficuses to find it sometimes.

*Hope for change, anyone but barack 2012*

@Right Wing Wacko -- Republicans gave your money to Romney. Obama is giving your money to us. See why it never was your money?

Big difference between Bain and GM - Bain created bank profits - GM created jobs.

Obama - jobs.
Romney - bank profits.

See the difference?

@CL444 -- And the statement was that West Virginia prefers having felons in government.

I can see where Republicans have the edge.

@John-2032532 -- Is it true that Republicans only vote with their middle finger?

Let's see - do we kill coal - or - does coal kill us? I can see where that would be a difficult choice.

Maybe the coal lobby wants to turn the Capitol building into the largest man made hole above ground?

I fail to see why so many conservatives continue to allow themselves to be brainwashed by big business in the country. There is so much ignorance on this forum, it's sickening.

SeekingSanity,

I will back up anything that I post that discusses facts.

Ron in Seattle - you clearly don't know the rules the GOP follows on this site - no real facts - just anything that will support Romney (since he needs all the support he can get). Great post by the way.

I don't think anyone in the Democratic Party was counting on WVA but - ya still never know. When it's between Obama and Romney they may realize that voting for Romney is like voting for death!

JAS - your usual nonsense. Do you and Damaged collaborate on what ridiculous stupidity to post each day?

As far as attack posts goes, liberals are just as guilty of that as anyone else.

Voting for Romney is voting for death?

Really, where is your proof on that?

What link can you post that will back that up?

I have also exchanged personal e-mails with a "liberal" poster without any complaints from that person.

Voting for Obama or Romney is just another pointless vote for an individual that will continue to impose oppression upon you. Obama is bad and Romney is even worse, but they're both still dog@!$%#e-grade.

Nerm Obama has the guts to tell 1.5 million coal workers he wants their jobs. He wants to end their way of life and steal their living from them. You expect them to welcome him with open arms? Are you nuts?

Georwell.

I fail to see why so many conservatives continue to allow themselves to be brainwashed by big business in the country. There is so much ignorance on this forum, it's sickening.

How do you define big business?

Brain washing in recognizing that we need big businesses to compete in the world market?

Define how we would live without large corporations?

rightwingwac: "Bowing is not a sign of respect at all. It is a sign of submission to a more powerful element."

Clearly, you don't know anything about any culture besides that of the U.S. Please stop giving us input because now we know it's worthless. (if we didn't already just assume given your previous rants)

@John-2032532 -- Obama had the guts to tell industrial boiler operators that this is NOT the nineteenth century.

Only you are talking to coal miners. Only you want to turn back the clock to the antebellum South.

You are the one that is whistlin' Dixie.

“President Clinton said the era of big government was over,” Romney said. “President Obama brought it back with a vengeance.”

On the news last night panelists discussed the unfortunate results of lying, and that there is always a small percent of people who believe the lies, and a small percent is often all that is needed to win in some elections. So sad, but Romney is a shameless liar and does it not just as "strategery" but because it is second nature for him. The more I see and hear, the more he has dropped from some guy running for office to downright hideous. The above statement is yet again a blatant lie.

Obama/Biden - 2012!

Nerm_L,

What does operating and industrial boiler have to do with the 19th century? Many things use the power of steam for energy production.

Obama is driving for a "planned" soviet-style economy, as quickly as possible. Obama is the one who is in denial regarding market forces. He is trying to bankrupt this country by using unproven, financially nonfeasible technology to solve the man-made global warming myth.

I guess Obama will tell us next to use beano:

A new study suggests that dinosaurs may have helped keep an already overheated world warmer with their flatulence and burps 200 million years ago.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/dinosaur-farts-burps-contributed-warming-earth-killing-article-1.1073968#ixzz1uP2Ek5AB

Even today, many millions of tons of methane are blown into our atmosphere each year through the intestinal ventilation -- to be polite -- of large mammals.

Especially by those who occupy various 'seats' in government.

@subnormal --
@John-2032532 --

Hey, guys, it's the 21st century. Industrial boilers have been in use for 300 years. Some of us are not stuck in the past - we have moved on - we have learned to use that old technology in cleaner and safer ways.

Fossil fuels are threatened by solar - because - solar can do something that fossil fuels cannot. Fossil fuels require an infrastructure - distribution networks - pipelines - the grid. The Navy even understand the limitations of fossil fuels.

Solar does not require any of that. Solar is power at point of use - without need for fossil fuel being delivered over the grid.

It's not energy - it's logistics. Energy based on fossil fuels simply cannot compete with that.

MGates

Clearly you don't understand a Saudi bow and a Japanese bow. In Saudi they bow to the more powerful king as in "bow before me". In areas of Asia they bow like we handshake out of respect and greeting. If you were too stupid to figure out which one I was talking about you're obviously too stupid to even speak of other cultures. Telling me not to speak on something I obviously know more about than you is true to liberal roots. If you aren't educated on it and you just look at it like a dog hearing a whistle, then you say "shut up because you don't know what you're talking about".

Funny (well not really)...peculiar (that's better) how libs always play the shut up game on here. You'll never see me say shut up, even with a race baiter like american girl because I love when you guys spew...give's me lots to work with. Nice try swizzle stick.

Nerm_L How exactly are fossil fuels threatened? They aren't threatened financially.

I don't understand the apparent hatred that some of the far right and far left have for people of a liberal bent. Most of us,yes I am of a liberal persuasion, are merely trying to point out what we perceive is a risky , or self serving action. Most Liberals are politically right of left wing socialists and further left of right wing conservatives. That, to me in not a position that should engender the hatred that it does .I can only assume that many of the commentators are lacking of understanding the true position of liberals ,in the political sense. I suggest that they should looik up the word in a dictionary.

@John-2032532 - Do you recall when battery operated power tools first hit the market? Ten years ago, those tools were under powered, had little duration, the batteries were highly toxic and expensive. Check out Home Depot - it's easier to find a battery powered tool now than one with a power cord.

People did not want battery powered tools so they could be 'green'. That power cord was a limitation. Batteries offered a way to overcome the limitation of power cords.

Fossil fuel advocates are trying to fit wind and solar into the very limitations that fossil fuels cannot overcome. Of course, wind and solar cannot compete on the grid with fossil fuels. What makes wind and solar more attractive than fossil fuels - is that wind and solar do not need a grid. Fossil fuels cannot compete without a grid - without pipelines - without distribution systems.

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=760331&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50523&subdeptNum=50529&classNum=50531

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=490086&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50523&subdeptNum=50529&classNum=5053

People that cannot connect to the grid - are relying on wind and solar right now. Wind and solar overcomes the limitations that fossil fuel requires - there is no power cord.

The 'financial' arguments are based on replacing an industrial boiler with solar or wind. That is a stupid use of wind and solar - simply because it places artificial limitations on the technology.

How much money would be saved if you did not need to construct high tension power lines and a substation for a new housing development? How much could be saved if maintenance of that infrastructure could be eliminated. That's the financial advantage of wind and solar.

Stop trying to fit 21st century technology into a 19th century box.

Hey Nerm,

You want to have some fun? Take an obsolete cell phone battery outside and far away from any building or flammable materials. Then peel off the outer layer to expose the lithium metal inside. Be careful. Be very careful. BTW - if lost in a survival situation this is a great way to start a fire to keep you warm.

Now consider the lithium metal batteries in today's E-cars. Think accident.

I work for a company that does solar, wind, battery chargers and all that stuff. It is far from practical at this time. Them's the facts.

Will it be? Maybe.

But here is what I'd tell the Envirocrats. Drill baby drill. And tax all oil from federal land $5 a barrel and put it in the green energy kitty for subsidies or what not. See what happens.

to the guy that said In Senator Dick Lugar didn't live there anymore. Well the next guy wont either. We need national laws that only let anyone serve 2 terms. Maybe we need to just let them serve on 6 year term. That might get the corruption out of out government. Change is a good thing something. Letting these people stay in office for such a long time isn't a good thing. New blood is good. but not to long and he will be just like the guy he beat out.

I am the dude you referred to, and I would ABSOLUTELY support term limits. I think it would solve a lot of the issues in Washington if politicians didn't have to worry about whether or not they would be re-elected. I don't believe our founding fathers ever intended anyone to become a career politician, but rather to leave their "normal lives" for a short time to serve their fellow citizens, and then return to be replaced by another elected representative. The problem with congress people being there too long is they amass so much power and money that it makes it almost impossible to unseat them. Term limits would need to be national, though, as state-imposed term limits would put some states at the bottom of the food chain continuously as far as committee assignments, etc.

I wish the president would take his own advice and not just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower.

Fred, the President is in over his head, and is too incompetent to realize what he wants.

I wish the president would take his own advice and not just stand on the sidelines and be a bomb thrower.

Because the President can just pass laws without Congress, right?

Every time I come on here all I see are juveniles who don't know the first thing about politics. They are crowing because they let the Koch's win in Indiana. We'll see how much you crow in November. Just because your candidate won doesn't mean he'll win in the general election. I'm sure Indiana will live to regret the tea party influence just as several other states are in the streets protesting. When they destroy your family's safety net, steal your retirement funds ,again and throw people off Medicaid and food stamps. We'll see who crows louder. It's a known fact that states like Indiana have more people on the government dole than any of the blue states because of low wages, higher unemployment and pandering to oil and big business.He who laughs last laughs best.

"Stood on the sidelines throwing bombs". Sounds like a line from the resume of a Republican member of the House of Representatives.

GO Obaaahhhhma 2012!

Yup, he's going all the way back to Chicago! They will be happy, and the rest of the country will be ecstatic! A win/win situation for the good ole USA!

Yes Indeedy Obama....Go Home!

Proud to be an Obama sheep there Chris? At least you are honest about being a sheep.

96ws6 - what is your fascination with sheep? You always reference them in your post. Just sayin.....

You little righties are going to be soooooo disappointed in November. The country will get their fill of Romney and his no plans; no programs; no nothing run and will send him home - yet again.

Obama/Biden 2012

Are you proud of being a tool for the white elite 96

Robisafool,

So If I don't support Obama I am automatically a "tool for the white elite"?!?!?.... and WHO is the racist?

Insanity,

Yes I am fascinated by the number of blind sheep that follow Obama OR Romney and think there is actually a difference or that they have a choice when in reality they are offered 2 vials of the same poison.

Its really something to see that so many Americans don't know how the government works. The President can and does not pass laws. That is the job of the Congress and Senate. I seen the Speaker saying the other day when asked by a reporter about passing a law to fix the drug problem we have with the Cancer Drug shortage. The speaker ask where the President input was on this. He can't do his job because the Tea party has taken over the congress an he can't get anything done. The President has enough to do. He shouldn't have to do the Congresses job as well.

96, You call someone a sheep that supports Obama, yet you get all hurt when someone says the same about you. What a @!$%#ing partisan hack.

SeekingSanity

96ws6 - what is your fascination with sheep? You always reference them in your post. Just sayin.....

You'll have to ask his Daaaaaaaaaaaad!

Rob,

Not all Obama supporters are sheep. Just the ones that defend Obama for the same atrocities that they would crucify a republican for. If it makes you feel better I call Republicans that blindly follow their party and would blast Obama for something they would pardon a Republican for sheep too. BTW the only one I called a sheep is the one making the sheep noises proudly acting like one, after all, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck...it's probably a duck. So if you think I called YOU a sheep maybe it is becuase hit too close to home when I called someone else one?

"the President is in over his head, and is too incompetent to realize what he wants."

As compared to what? The economy is improving... just a report today that 3.74 million jobs are posted. The stock market has returned...companies are reporting record profits and the auto companies are still in business and making billions in profit yet you say set the bar higher.

um, 96er

This may come as a shock to you; but the humor in Chris' post IS your response to it.

Right, baaaaaaaaaaaack at ya' Chris!

Obaaaaaaaaaaaaama 2012

Patrick, seven straight days of a dropping stick market, or haven't you been paying attention. Two hundred million Americans would make a more competent President than Obama. GM should be making a profit, they pay no taxes. It is looking bad for Obama, so get the blinders off before you post.

thanks for pointing out the obvious to 96 Clara...since i have him on ignore i had no idea he had made my point for me. I knew they would...without even looking

as proudly as possible.....quack quack 96

wonder if 96 and his Daaaaaad are from WV??? that was long enough...who cares

GO Obaaahhhhma 2012!

The sheep asked Chris....are you my Daaaaaaaaaaaaddy?

"President Obama was expected to win the West Virginia primary, but not to be WITHIN 20 points TO A CONVICTED FELON SITTING IN FEDERAL PRISON IN ANOTHER STATE."

Does this mean that we will soon be hearing the strains of: "Hail To The Thief" in place of that other song?

ercillor, we could, rightfully, have been singing "Hail to the Thief" since January 2009.

Well Ursula, Fiat came along to save Chrysler.

How come you folks don't seem to grasp that?

The "help" that would "come along" would, indeed, have been private venture capital- after a managed bankruptcy that would have put the company on sound financial footing. When GM sought venture capital prior to going, hat in hand, (on private jets, no less) to Congress for taxpayer borrowed dollars, they were relying on their failed business plan. That private venture declined should have been the first clue that the company was on an unsustainable course.

You are correct in pointing out that Obama's managed bankruptcy was different than the one prescribed by Romney. After Obama's MB, the tax dollars loaned to GM and Chrysler were wiped off the books- we will never get that money back. Under a Romney MB, there would have been no tax dollars at risk- the MB would have taken place sooner, rather than as a last resort, and private equity would have been invested- thus, at risk.

Had Romney been at the helm, secured bond holders- teachers', firefighters', and police pension funds- would not have seen their assets wiped out, while unions retained the right to have several thousand workers who had their jobs erased decades ago continued to collect full paychecks.

In other words, it would have been "fair", rather than a union bailout.

There certainly would not have been the shenanigans of GM loudly proclaiming that they had "repaid government loans"- when all they had done was "pay" it back out of new taxpayer funds. That's like saying you repaid your mom, which a new loan from dad.

Moreover, since there has been no fundamental change in the way they do business, and given their proven willingness to play around with the books-using TARP money to "repay" the taxpayers- it will not be very many years before GM, at least, is right back where it was in 2008.

I wonder who you will blame for that?

Gotta give the folks on the right credit for the task they are trying to do---rehabilitate the man who wrote: Let Detroit Go Bankrupt and whose own firm, Bain Capital, declined to participate in a restructuring of the auto industry. It is beyond question that THERE WAS NO OTHER WAY to save GM and, with it, the auto industry. Keep trying, Republicans--there are some people who, sadly, will fall for it but they were going to vote for Mitt anyway.

No thinking reasoning person will believe Romney had anything to do with saving the auto industry. HE WAS A PRIVATE CITIZEN who happened to run for POTUS. Last Friday when the crappy job number came out and he had messaging back on his side, I gave Romney til Tuesday before he sticks his foot in his mouth. He delivers right on cue. This guy, who says he wants to bring the country together, is about as hollow a person I have ever seen. It is astounding to me that some will buy his BS. Just look at him. It looks like he backed his campaign bus up to the BS store for the big buy one get one sale.

WCA & NJNB -

As they say, hindsight is 20/20. Fiat only came along AFTER the government-funded bailout, and it is the most blatant form of revisionist history to say that the venture capital firms turned down GM only because they didn't like the plan. There was also a financial crisis happening and capital was in short supply.

Do you really think ANY form of bankruptcy would have been possible without wiping out the debt to the bondholders? And that the suppliers and their employees would have been able to wait out a long, drawn-out bankruptcy proceeding? The bailout did not work out great for everyone, and we still have a way to go, but without a doubt it saved millions of jobs at the companies that supplied and depended on GM. Yes, other companies MIGHT have stepped up to meet demand, but most of them would have been foreign-owned companies. Did you really want Toyota, Honda, and other foreign car companies to absorb such a large share of the market and basically destroy the American auto industry?

That was the main reason the government stepped in - to preserve the American auto industry and prevent the ancillary economic destruction of companies and jobs that would have occured if GM and Chrysler would have both gone bankrupt at the same time.

SF: It is beyond question that THERE WAS NO OTHER WAY to save GM and, with it, the auto industry.

So is GM "To big to fail"? Using Liberal Logic, that should mean GM should be split up.

Tnsevol,

Large companies have successfully navigated controlled bankruptcies for decades - GM would have been no different. GM had value and it was never in danger of closing it's doors. What did happen, as others have pointed out, is secured creditors (ex: pension plans for non-union workers) lost more than they would have and taxpayers coughed up tens of billions, all so union workers would not have to take the hit they normally would have taken during a regular bankruptcy.

Chrysler would have had a harder time of it, but it's still not likely they would have gone away - they would have just been purchased by someone like Fiat at a lower price.

The GOPer's has been blasting Obama for the auto "bail out" since day one. Now they find out it was really Mitt Romney's idea. Goodie - one less thing for them to moan and groan about.

The "help" that would "come along" would, indeed, have been private venture capital- after a managed bankruptcy that would have put the company on sound financial footing.

No one invests in a worthless company and that is exactly what GM was worth, nothing. Let alone the fact that the freshly Bush bailed out banks wouldn't loan a plugged nickel to anyone at the time. So we do the Republican thing and just let them fail and wait for some idiot with money to buy them up, and then fire everyone, and move the plants to Mexico. It IS, after all, the Romney way. Thousands of Americans loose their jobs and futures so a Romney clone can line his pockets. That's the problem with clowns like the jersey nutjob, the auto liar, and the wanna be's like Ron. You just don't give a @!$%# about anyone but yourselves. Shame on you.

Ursala. Ford made it on there own, why not GM? Chrysler got Fiat? Why not GM?

UNIONS!!! MONEY!!! Get over yourself and start opening your eyes.

Didn't you know that Romney even beat Prometheus by stealing the secret of fire and he discovered the wheel, too? LOL. Where is Pinocchio when you need him?

Ron,

I am not arguing the point that GM would have survived, the question was and still is what would have been the impact on it's suppliers and other dependent companies? Union workers did take a hit, as lower wages and other concessions were negotitated.

I am somewhat amused that so many posters here today think that GM would have survived a bankruptcy and it wouldn't have been such a big deal. Almost no one at the time of the crisis took that position, several doubted that GM would survive and be succesful even after the bailout.

I still believe (and the facts support me) that without a government-managed bankruptcy GM and Chrysler would have had a tough time convincing prospective auto buyers to purchase their products. Suppliers would have gone bankrupt, many jobs would have been lost, and foreign manufacturers would have captures a huge share of the market.

In my mind there is no doubt the the American auto industry as we know it would not have survived a GM/Chrysler bankruptcy.

I jumped ahead to commend Independent for such a terriffic post. Thoroughly enjoyed it. Thanks.

So the government bailout of an auto industry that employs millions of blue-collar middle-class workers and fuels numerous support industries and companies gets blasted by the right because the unions made out better than the bond holders?

Where is the outrage over the bailout of a financial industry that created its own mess through reckless greed? A financial industry that used a portion of its bailout money to pay huge bonuses to the same people who led them into the "meltdown"? Why not let the unsuccesful and ill-managed banks and insurance companies fail? It certainly would have been easier to find other providers of capital and insurance services than it would be to find someone to build a car.

TNSEVOL - the right wingers on this page will re-write the bailout just like Romney did. They've changed their stance every day according to what Romney says and we all know he changes his stance every day.

Road Warrior - NC will be blue again in November. While the students may be lackluster in their support for Obama, they truly Hate Romney - they understand he is bad for the country.

trayvonmartinschoolofthuggery - your asinine moniker says everything about you and your totally idiotic post lets everyone know what an ignorant, classless moron you are. Why don't you grow up or at least PRETEND to have a brain!

Obama/Biden 2012

Seeking,

Like in 1980 after voting for Jimmy Carter in 1976 and not having a job upon graduation, the students just won't vote this time.

I got a real laugh with the jokes at the expense of the Conservatives so found these about Liberals:

1) Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But then I repeat myself. –Mark Twain

2) I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. –Winston Churchill

3) A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul. –George Bernard Shaw

4) A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money. –G Gordon Liddy

5) Democracy must be something more than two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. –James Bovard,

6) Foreign aid might be defined as a transfer of money from poor people in rich countries to rich people in poor countries. –Douglas Casey

7) Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. –P.J. O’Rourke,

Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else. –Frederic Bastiat,

9) Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it. –Ronald Reagan (1986)

10) I don’t make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. –Will Rogers

11) If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it’s free. –P.J. O’Rourke

12) In general, the art of government consists of taking as much money as possible from one party of the citizens to give to the other. –Voltaire (1764)

13) Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn’t mean politics won’t take an interest in you. –Pericles (430 B.C.)

14) No man’s life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session. –Mark Twain (1866)

15) Talk is cheap … except when Congress does it. –Unknown

17) The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of the blessings. The inherent blessing of socialism is the equal sharing of misery. –Winston Churchill

18) The only difference between a tax man and a taxidermist is that the taxidermist leaves the skin. –Mark Twain

19) The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. –Herbert Spencer (1820-1903

20) What this country needs are more unemployed politicians. –Edward Langle

21) A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have.–Unknown

22) If Michael [J. Fox] was really interested in the good that stem cell research could do, he would have done a commercial a long time ago asking people to invest in the drug companies who are trying to find a cure. –Buck Evinger

David,

great post.

"President Obama was expected to win the West Virginia primary, but not to be WITHIN 20 points TO A CONVICTED FELON SITTING IN FEDERAL PRISON IN ANOTHER STATE."

Does this mean that we will soon be hearing the strains of: "Hail To The Thief" in place of that other song?

Reading all these comments, it's a good thing I'm voting for Ron Paul. I don't have to worry about anything Romney says. In fact, I hope he continues to stick his foot in his mouth. Just looks better for the guy that's quietly racking up delegates in droves while MSM looks the other way.

Good morning IR,

This is great.

Morning Betty

Since our Yahoo Friends seem so bound and determined to devolve our discussions to who Posts first, who is paid and collapsing somebody telling them what they don’t like and such like Bushra I figured that you’ll would appreciate something to shoot back with.

Just pick out what you like and discard the rest

Just pick out what you like and discard the rest

No way Floyd!

Those are going directly into Feisty's vault - I got a feeling they will come in handy on down the road! ;o)

Love them all, IR. I'm with Jacqueline Kennedy--"You have to have been a Republican to know how good it is to be a Democrat". I only wish I had figured it out sooner!

Maybe you need to look up the definition of the word Bigot.

Thanks independent , Nice read lol

Many thanks IR for a great post and a whole lotta great quotes!

Like you said, sometimes the truth hurts.

"movements and trends are "progressive", no matter how destructive, immoral, deadly, ridiculous and harmful they are."

-Damage123

I think that only applies to your bowel movements. Lay off the red meat.

IR, great quotes, terrific.

To add to quote #11 above, proof that Bill Clinton is right. Ronald Reagan's most sympathetic biographer, Edmund Morris wrote: "Once he (Reagan) had made an emotional commitment to this or that policy or story, no amount of disproof would cause him to alter his belief in it."

and one more quote for you,

What I don't get about them is this: If ignorance is bliss, why are they all so angry?

IR:

A "conservative" who reads your post, might be moved to ask, "So, what's your point?"

Thanks, Independent... You have helped me assure myself that I am not crazy. I find it fascinating that some of these quotes come from arch-conservatives. Imagine... Clarence Thomas admitting a fundamental truth about the Party with whom he has sworn fealty. I have copied your poast and saved it for posterity. Thanks again!!!

Here's one I just heard last night: "Working people voting for Repbublicans are like chickens voting for Colonel Sanders."

SSSSH David I'm trying to think like a Yahoo this morning. They don't have a point just feelings and inclinations.

Having been a republican until Ronald Reagan's first term, I can identify Jacqueline Kennedy's quote.

I like George Carlin's quote, too. It has all come to pass. A lot of students have unpaid internship nowadays because these greedy b's don't pay them. It's almost a return to indentured servitude. If you want to graduate with references and experience you basically have no choice. One more thing , some nut on this page is trying to blame unions for the mess we're in which is ridiculous. Were it not for unions, there would be no minimum wage. The Koch's want to get rid of those few pennies they pay us peons like they have in most red states. Some big department store in Texas paid my friends daughters less than seven dollars an hour for months and then had the nerve to lay them off. Do you know why they can do that? No collective bargaining. Look into it and get the cotton out of your head. Union businesses always pay more because they have agreements and profit-sharing. Keep voting for those tealeaves and see what you get. Ask the 43 million people on food stamps what they know about unions.Georgia and Alabama got rid of their immigrants and lost six billion dollars in crops. They couldn't find anyone who wanted to work twelve hours a day for slave wages even in this bad economy. Good for them. You get what you pay for.

Those are going directly into Feisty's vault - I got a feeling they will come in handy on down the road! ;o)

Now carrot top is talking in the 3rd person! Wow! She must be suffering from concussions - no doubt caused by hitting her head on whatever bar she was sitting at last night watching the W. Virginia democratic primary results! ;o) Keith Judd could be the new democratic poster boy, replacing other notable democrats like J.Edwards, etc.

Quotes and polls are like bungholes. Everybody has them and the results are all poop.

Putting a bunch of opinionated quotes together and calling them "truth" is a stretch to say the least.

IR - love it! Now I can't wait to hear what Bill Clinton has to say about Romney.

Romney's trying to tell Independents that he is closer to Clinton's domestic policies than Obama? Ha!

Tell him Clinton!

Clinton was the recipient of a booming economy following twelve years of Republicans in the White House, all he had to do was enjoy the ride. But Bill Clinton screwed it up when he signed NAFTA into law and the country lost millions of jobs that will never return. That completely eroded the nations tax base and our unemployment rate today is in a large part thanks to Clinton. They are only tossing Clinton's name around because Democrats still believe he had something to do with the great economy he inherited. Otherwise Clinton was only good for a laugh.

@Job1

This is where the President (unless he is just another cynical politician) and California are, against gay marriage, so NC is not completely out the mainstream. I find the attitude strange that you would want a law to stop gay marriage. Definitely on the wrong side of history

@Damage123

I believe it is encompassed in the "pursuit of happiness" clause, although Rodney Dangerfield may argue against that.

North Carolina carried this issue too far as to not recognize a Civil Union. It’s just one more example of the bigoted morons who care for nothing other than their own ideas.

At some point, the Supreme Court will have no choice but to hold that portion of the North Carolina action as in violation of the US Constitution.

Job 1---I agree that NC went too far to deny recognition to civil unions. The religious issues are one thing but to not even allow civil benefits to same sex couples seems overly harsh to me.

For a party that claims they are all about "freedoms" and small government, the Republicans sure have alot of opinions about love, sex and relationships. And yet, the daughters of Tea Partiers are often meth head single moms and their sons have court orders against them (I know this because I sometimes watch Dr. Phil!)

So democrats dont have opinions or is it that republicans dont have a right to their opinions because you disagree? And you really dont get that meth is made in the midwest and shipped all over the country, so how is it a mystery that kids get hold of it when its EVERYWHERE? Really? Nothing like this happens on the east coast? Really?

The hypocritcal nature of your post is amazing.

@Damage123

I believe it is encompassed in the "pursuit of happiness" clause, although Rodney Dangerfield may argue against that.

You're correct Alan. Wasn't there a SCOTUS case involving interracial marriage or something like that which had similar arguments that one could use as precedent for a pro-gay marriage case?

I think it is time for the government to get out of the marriage business all together. Civil unions for everybody. It's just a legal document at this point anyway. Leave actual marriage to the religions . . .

Damage123

Since when (and where) is it a CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT for a man to marry another man? Or a woman to marry another woman? It isn't.

Where is it in the United States Constitutional that it is not a right for a man to marry another man? or a woman to marry another woman. It's not there is it? Do you have some secret righty decoder ring that is only awarded to you?

Just because someone was born with a brain abnormality that causes them to be deviant sexually, does not mean they get special rights.

Gay rights are not special rights, they are equal rights. Please show me how granting gays/lesbians the right to marry is a special right? Seems to me, if they pay the same taxes, they are entitled to the same rights..

But then again, it was you liberals that somehow found wording in The Constituion that you twisted into Thomas Jefferson being ok with a woman killing her unborn baby. Go figure.

Then again you righities scream about less government in our lives, but say "the government should tell women what they can and cannot do with their bodies". What's the most ironic about you righties is you are pro life, but once that child is born, we are going to do nothing to help you. Sorry, we gave you life, but that's all you get. Good Luck, we no longer care about you.

Thanks for the laugh damage. You are a reminder of why we trail behind the rest of the world in education.

Congratulations to the great state of North Carolina for proving that discrimination can still be legalized.

Thanks for the laugh damage. You are a reminder of why we trail behind the rest of the world in education.

That's why Damage is only capable of being employed in the most menial of jobs. He mad.

North Carolina carried this issue too far as to not recognize a Civil Union. It’s just one more example of the bigoted morons who care for nothing other than their own ideas.

I agree. When are Democrats going call for a boycott of travelling, and doing business in NC? They were very successful in reducing travel to Arizona. This is the same? Right? It's a violation of civil rights. Wait a minute, where was the call to boycott California when they voted against gay marriage? Did that end once a court overruled a constitutional proposition?

Either way I'm sure we'll now see a boycott of NC by the Democrats.

Where's the Democratic Convention again?

http://charlottein2012.com/

Every time I think I could not read anything more jaw-droppingly stupid on this board, along comes someone who draws conclusions from a cheap, pop psychology show.

It boggles the mind.

North Carolina did not just ban gay marriage and civil unions- they banned ALL civil unions. Children born out of wedlock will not see child support checks. Those co-habiting will not be subject to domestic violence laws.

Forget taking this to state court- this is now written in to the state constitution.

It bears mentioning that the biggest majorities for this amendment were in the counties that gave Obama HIS biggest majorities in 2008. Those in these counties share his socially conservative, fiscally profligate political philosophy.

These facts do not faze Obama supporting liberals in the least. They ignore them, and cast blame on republicans.

Then they go back to Dr, Phil, I suppose, and get more "proof" for their bigoted beliefs.

I think it is time for the government to get out of the marriage business all together. Civil unions for everybody. It's just a legal document at this point anyway. Leave actual marriage to the religions . . .

Agreed, this should not be a government issue at all, and government should not reward and penalise people for being married or single and for having or not having kids either. Its too Orwellian, is that a word really?

Congratulations to the great state of North Carolina for proving that discrimination can still be legalized.

Don't forget that the great state of California voted the same way, and the President also opposes gay marriage (at least until 2013 when he evolves).

Every time I think I could not read anything more jaw-droppingly stupid on this board, along comes someone

Yea, you.

@Alan

Don't forget that the great state of California voted the same way, and the President also opposes gay marriage (at least until 2013 when he evolves).

He supported it when he was Senator according to the Daily Show last night, then he flipped to opposing it I guess (I haven't seen an official statement either way from the administration).

Forget taking this to state court- this is now written in to the state constitution.

You're right.. This belongs in the United States Supreme Court. States should not be deciding on civil rights. We tried that before.

It bears mentioning that the biggest majorities for this amendment were in the counties that gave Obama HIS biggest majorities in 2008. Those in these counties share his socially conservative, fiscally profligate political philosophy.

So you personally checked the results of the county elections for this amendment with the voting results for 2008:

http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/results/states/president/north-carolina.html

I do see a 'correlation' between Obama supporters voting on this amendment. I have not ignored it nor do I blame the Republicans for it. However, it seems reasonable that the Republicans via their non tax paying religious supporters pushed this issue.

Whats sad.. is Republicans (in general) and especially those 'teagbaggers' do not support equal rights for all even if they pay the same taxes. Discrimination at its finest.

Ruken, your misogyny query is a good one. This is what I've learned-

The SCOTUS cannot be involved with a state law regarding marriage unless and until a couple from a state where such marriage is legal- say, Massachusetts, relocates to a state where it is illegal- say, North Carolina- and seeks some state benefit only denied to same sex couples. That, it seems, is why all civil unions were barred by Amendment one- to preclude a challenge based on selecting only one group for discrimination. (the misogyny case was a criminal one- but North Carolina did not criminalize gay relationships or co-habitation).

Even in the event that some brave couple did set out to become a test case, there might be a loss- DOMA is, still, the law of the land. Might DOMA be found unConstitutional? Possibly- but the Court might find on more narrow grounds for the state, because each state provides different benefits to married vs. single,people.

Moreover, even those in states where gay marriage and/or civil unions are recognized cannot file Federal tax returns as married couples, nor can they collect spousal benefits from Social Security, to name just two federal benefits to married couples. It's therefore more likely than not that the Court would refuse to even hear such a case.

This, by the way, is the opinion of a friend of mine who is an ACLU lawyer. She thinks the only cure for this is time, because the younger generation recognizes this as a civil rights issue, rather than one of sexuality.

"Just because someone was born with a brain abnormality that causes them to be deviant sexually, does not mean they get special rights"

Man, if you're "normal" I don't want any part of it!

If you don't like gay marriage, don't marry a gay. Otherwise, butt out.

Most likely actions will be taken against NC after the election. If you let them get away with this stripping of Civil Rights, what's next? Interracial marriage next?

Maybe Damage can find the place in the US Constitution where it references marriage and where it declares it between a man and a woman. Last I checked, there's nothing in there defining marriage.

From what I heard, NC's amendment also restricts rights to unmarried heterosexual couples as well; you know, those folks who live together in what used to be called "common law marriages".

It reminds me of Iowa's GOP House bill in 2011. In their eager effort to eliminate same sex marriage in Iowa, including civil unions, their bill actually outlawed "civil unions" for everyone including heterosexuals. Over-zealous nuts will do that. At least it never went beyond the House GOPers voting yea and then they discovered their little "goof".

Jody, Iowa - Loved your post and I agree. I was born and raised in Iowa. Last year, I was able to share one of the happiest moments in my life with my family and now husband in a state that supports civil rights. I am forever proud to be from Iowa.

no joe, no bo, nj -

Thank you for the follow up post. It was not directly related to mine, but when I read it, that was enough. Its actually refreshing to see someone pose many different views on this subject, and actually do it as an adult. I wish more people would follow the same example.

Conservatism is being unable to feel sorry. Or guilty for that matter.

Conservatism is being unable to feel sorry. Or guilty for that matter.

Conservatism or the mockery of which the Republican party has succeeded at creating?

Fiscal conservatives have a lot of good ideas. However the Republican party is hardly adhering to those ideals. Just look at the Ryan plan, what more proof do you need? Couple that with their hypocritical agenda of "Small government! (Unless you're a woman or social minority)" and you have a spawn so deviant I cannot begin to fathom its inner workings.

Alan NJ

You mention NC and California. I'm told that no state in the union has approved of gay marriage when it was voted on by the people. Is my information correct?

You know, I voted against the Amendment. I see no problem with a legal equivalent to marraige (called SOMETHING ELSE). But I still wish that Liberals (all of them) would boycott NC. Move to... California... thanks to Bev Purdue and a bunch of dingbat tax and squander Democrats, we're $5 Billion in debt... we took back the legislature in 2010, and in Nov we'll take back the Governor's mansion (Bev can see the writing on the wall, and isn't running for re-election). Then, we have to dig ourselves out. Kay Hagan, a Liberal US Senator (who voted for Obozocare, and Cap and Tax) also has to go. Can't wait to let the Blamer-in-Chief know just how sorry we think he is when the DNC gets in town.

...

Workin Hard has got it right. Marriage is a religious institution, and others are trying to force their beliefs on those religions. Give the gl's their civil unions and be done with it.

I have no problem with men who like up the dookie shoot. However Marriage is something that happens between women and men. It is not realistic for men to marry men. Its unnature to be attracted to the same sex. Just not the proper way nature intended it to be. However if that makes your boat flot then by all means go for it. If Im not misstake its against the law in NC for a man to suck another mans peter.

@workin hard

I think you're right. In all the others the legislature passed the measure. maybe we in NJ will be first. I believe we're voting this November in an astute move by Governor Christie. he didn't want to pass the bill and ruin his national aspirations. So he vetoed the bill and put a referendum on the ballot this November.

I would think it will pass here.

Up is down and down is up, all right, but I'm afraid the problem lies in the Obama cult, not outside.

Yesterday, there was an exchange wherein (I believe) Steeler Fan posited that Obama could not come out for gay marriage because of public opinion. JS1 then provided a list of things, such as HCR, that were vehemently opposed by the public, that Obama insisted on ramming through.

In was in the context of this food for thought that I read the results of the North Carolina vote on Amendment One. Tellingly, the counties where Obama received the overwhelming number of votes in 2008 voted even more overwhelmingly FOR this amendment, which bans, not just gay marriage, but civil unions- and not just for gays, but for all. At risk with this amendment are child support payments for children born out of wedlock, as well as domestic violence protection for those co-habiting.

Obama, himself, has been and remains silent on the issue. The head of his campaign in North Carolina spoke, and used Obama's name, but nothing from the man himself. So, given his insistence on passing other, extremely unpopular legislation, why no comment on this?

The answer seems to be the same as the answer to his blocking the Keystone pipeline- fear of offending part of his base. He seems to reckon that he must keep one faction-say, rabid environmentalists- happy, while risking alienating another faction- union workers. Why did he choose as he did? I have no idea.

Same deal here- he chose a faction of his base that's socially conservative, but certainly fiscally profligate in light of the demands made of taxpayers, over college students and the LGBT community. One assumes, in this case, his fear was that, alienating the social conservatives in North Carolina would cost him the state, as they would stay home on election day,because they outnumber college students and the LGBT community. If that faction stayed home, he still had a chance of winning the state.

Whether or not that strategy works out, I don't see any justification for those on the left to continue to call Obama a man of principle and ethics. Those seem to be purely situational.

nojonobo

Whether or not that strategy works out, I don't see any justification for those on the left to continue to call Obama a man of principle.

Obama's actions speak louder than his words: He got rid of "Don't ask, don't tell". And his Justice Department is no longer defending the unconstitutional "Defense of Marriage" act. But I'll bet you prefer Romney because he's really a man of principles - many many principles that totally conflict with each other. So which Mittens do you prefer, nojonobo? the Mittens who was going to be more pro-gay than Ted Kennedy when he was running against him in Massachusetts, or the current Mittens who wants a constitutional amendment to deprive gay people of their rights?

But no jo, who considers herself to be the arbiter of ethics (why can't I write that sentence without laughing?) does not call out Mittens for allowing the "teabaggers" to run off an openly gay man. Guess it was, what, no jo, inconvenient? Requiring moral fiber?

All the things that like you, Mitty lacks.

No Joe--why am I not surprised that you did not read my post thoroughly and that you failed to comprehend what I was saying yesterday. I was referring to the very real religious views that people have regarding gay marriage and was suggesting that President Obama was trying to work through his own views and be respectful to others. I guess that is why you couldn't get my concept--I have never seen you be respectful to anyone, starting with our President and including the people who post here.

Jody---great post---I was astounded to see Romney trying to re-write history (a kinder way of saying lying). We'll see how the people in Michigan respond on election day!

Purely situational? Perhaps as a strong Christian family man with a wonderful wife and two beautiful daughters he is having trouble embracing same sex marriages?

I'm from the same generation as President Obama and I also had/have reservations about same-sex marriage. Of course civil unions and the rights granted to couples should be accessible to all Americans...that's not a difficult call. But marriage?

Like many Americans, my opinion has been evolving to the point that now with a better understanding of the importance of this issue to gay Americans, I'm willing to accept their right to marriage. Afterall, who am I to tell people who to love and marry?

As for the sanctimonious people who voted in NC to deny marriage to gay couples, well, let's hope their next amendment bans divorce because THAT's clearly a threat to their precious institution.

Pragmatist, do you realize that you just came on this board and did more than Obama did?

You stated your beliefs- clearly, concisely, so that all could understand.

Obama would not do that. He allowed spokespeople to use his name, allowed the "White House" to issue a squishy statement, but he, himself, has said nothing.

Not that he was against it, nor that he was for it. Silence is all he offered.

Sorry if I prefer that someone who leads the nation, who seeks to continue to lead the nation, let us know his opinion on the subject of denying civil rights to a select group of people.

Blank screen days are behind him. I, personally, infer from his actions that he was for the Amendment. I base this on his ignoring an EO that would bar government contractors from discriminating against their LGBT employees. Others infer that he was against it, because he is, after all, a liberal, right?

The fact is, none of us should have to be inferring anything, because he should have come out and stated his views as you did- clearly, concisely, so all could understand.

Hey- do you want to run for president? You seem to have the character it takes.

Well said, Pragmatist. What the folks on the right like No Joe and her ilk are unable to see is that we are trying to work through our own views and also understand the very differing views on all sides of this issue in order to treat everyone with respect. They are unable to see any side to an issue other than their own.

Does Pinocchio really think he is presidential material? The man lies and doesn't even blink. It's uncanny really.

Reading Jersey Shores today reminds me of why I ignore No Joe's comments 99.9% of the time--reading NJ is the equivalent of sucking on a lemon. It is so obvious that Life must be one giant bag of lemons for her.

Pragmatist, ditto what Steeler Fan said.

Iowa's ruling by the State Supreme Court was probably one of the best, most thoughtful decisionson this matter to date. In it, the Court determined that "marriage" for gays as in church wedding would be left up to the Churches but that "civil unions" as in Justice of the Peace weddings would be available to all people, gay and straight. While President Obama fully supports the rights of the LGBT community and his actions prove it, and he supports civil unions which is marriage with a certificate performed by a Justice of the Peace. Conservatives and the media can quibble all they want about his "evolving" views on marriage but the simple truth is, the only "evolving" President Obama is doing is grappling with the notion of "marriage" in a Church and the rights of a Church. That is likely what a good percentage of the 48% of Americans who oppose gay marriage find difficult to embrace. President Obama recognizes that change happens slowly; that the public view must catch up with the "private" views of liberals. In the last 15 years, more of the public is beginning to recognize gay marriage as a civil right rather than a question of religious views. "Evolving" encompasses what is happening nationwide.

Don't any of the writers/editors of First Read know how to proof read their articles? I am really sick and tired of poor grammar, fill in the blank sentences that require a verb that doesn't appear in the article, "do" instead of "did" or "did" instead of "do" and sentences that simply make no sense!

Today's First Read was a prime example, although certainly not the only one.

Get a proof reader!

Polls that close mean nothing. Remember Bush v Gore and who really won that election?

People on both sides need to stop posting polls. They're retarded. Not only are most of them flawed beyond belief, but it's also May. There have been no national debates yet. There's no reason to believe any poll is anywhere close to being valid for November.

The Polls say "it's time for a change." Obama was given an opportunity and screwed it up, big time. Next.

The Polls say "it's time for a change." Obama was given an opportunity and screwed it up, big time. Next.

The polls don't mean sh*t for either candidate as of yet for reasons I listed in my last post. Only ignorant deluded people think they do.

You do realize that the difference between Romney and Obama in this poll is within the margin of error, don't you? The two are statistically tied in most national polls. What should be worrying Romney is that Obama has leads of around 7 points in battle ground states like Ohio, a state he's so desperate to win that he tried to claim credit for Obama saving the auto industry while he was there campaigning.

I can also find poll that have the President with a 7% lead.

The only poll that matters is the ones a week before the election.

You evidently believe the polls. I wonder if you believe in fairy tales? Your candidate does.

Ruken's right. Polls don't mean sh**...

I seem to remember polling, and the media, back in the 2010 midterms saying most races were too close to call, and that the Democrats were expected to lose only a few seats.

Sure....even after the shellacking their party took two years ago, they defiantly (or ignorantly) stated that it was not a "referendum on Obama"...

Well, guess what.... It WAS.

I expect that when Obama loses in the fall, they'll still be repeating the same mantra...

.

Here in Iowa the middle class is fed up with working till they are 70 to pay for "public servants" who retire when they are 50.....

"public servants" who retire when they are 50.....

You want to be a cop, and risk your life, only to be nickle and dimed by people you swore to protect? Meanwhile, Republicans are all hot to protect the bonuses "earned" by Wall Street conmen. Strange values you Republicans have, well, not so strange, considering the 1% own your Party.

Cops-----Salary from public tax payers

WallStreet---Salary from private shareholders

Any questions?

"Up there in Iowa..."?

Last I heard, Iowa is a pretty blue state.

Last I checked, Iowa voted Dem in 92,96,2000, and 08.

And last I saw, Iowa had Dem +10 in a poll conducted 3 days ago.

Now I might be way off, since I don't live there, but are you certain that you're giving a representative sample of ALL of Iowa, and not just you/your family/your immediate neighborhood?

UAW obviously must live "up" there in Steve King's district because I sure don't hear that in my part of Iowa.

Come on guys Being a Republican doesn't give us the sole franchise on commonn sense. There were plenty of Democrats who rethought thier politics in 2010. We'll be a better nation when everyone who is able bodied pulls thier weight and plays by the same rules....

Quick question.

In IOWA...

what was the voter turnout percentage in 2008, and what was it in 2010?

Tek,

A liberal staying home on election day is a sign common sense is returning. There is no doubt our country has alot of work to do. But I am encouraged that it took less than 2 years for the country to reject what was an obvious mistake in 2008....

Your letting your partisanship cloud your logic.

Liberals tend not to vote in mid-term elections. It's sort of our national trend, and the basis for Gingrich's 'Pact with America'. Republicans have always been much more reliable voters.

Now if you truly think that 2012 is going to be 2010...then that's fine. But I am merely stating from a historical analysis perspective that the trends do not support your claim.