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One of the declarations from last year's NATO summit in Lisbon was that the Afghan Security Forces would take the lead for security in 2013. But, during a tense exchange with Senator John McCain (R-AZ), Gen. John Allen declared that the U.S. will still need many of the post-surge combat troops to remain in the fight.
McCain asked Allen whether he has any opinion right now as to what the U.S. presence will be in 2013.
"My opinion is that we will need significant combat power in 2013," Allen responded.
McCain asked if "significant" meant 68,000 troops (the number that will be left after the surge troops re-deploy at the end of summer 2012).
"68,000 is a good going-in number, but I owe the president some analysis on that," Allen replied.
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Why? Get out as quickly as possible!
More and more people in Ahfganistan are wanting to run their country without our help. As far as I can see it would benefit us more to oblige them and get out before we lose one more life.
No matter how long we stay once we leave the country will revert back. This has been a losing effort from the start.
If the troops are not gone Obama will have a huge problem...The stinky old republican men say "We have to win "...Just exactly what is it we win? Enlighten me please !
There was no "winning" this war from the time we entered it. We haven't won any in the traditional sense since WWII, and a lot of people would say that everybody loses in war, which is closer to the truth to be sure.
Now that we are stuck there, we need the Aghgani army to be able to secure the country. This has to be tough when their soldiers can't read or count for starters. Some of their "dependable" soldiers have been shooting our people. I feel this is one of those scenarios where we will hold things together until we are just tired of it all and leave. I hope this doesn't go all to heck in a hand-basket like Vietnam in '75. No foreign power has succeeded there, and I don't think we will be the ones to bring tranquility to that country. Thanks a lot "W"!
McCain's definition of winning a war in Afghanistan is the problem. We're not going to rid that country of its theocracy any more than the GOP is going to start passing out free contraception.
Why is it somehow McCain's fault Ursula? Don't just make a statement without your version of an explanation.
Brianb, the problem I was referring to was the tense exchange mentioned in the article. We'll never turn all those Afghans into America-loving Christians no matter how long we're there. As I recall, the purpose of invading Afghanistan was to hunt down those responsible for 911...and we did. Any agenda beyond that is futile.
And I agree with you to a degree. The reason we are there now is to keep hunting Al Qaeda so they won't attack us again... to rid that country of their strongholds. We never expect them to conform to our way of life, but we certainly don't want them to grow in strength so they can hit us again. That's the objective... not to win the hearts and minds of the indignant's.
If fighting terrorism was a geographic endeavor, our continued presence might make a difference. But just like Osama bin Laden had moved on to Pakistan, so other terrorists find safe havens...and will either return once we leave or just strike from their current location. Regardless, we cannot eliminate global terrorism nor reform every corrupt government. So why stay any longer?
I'm all for pulling out Ursula. I think we could reduce a lot of spending by leaving. You have to ask yourself one question though. Is pulling out wise? We've taken the fight to them... they already hate us and our way of life and they do want to see us hurt in a significant way. If we leave, will their numbers grow because they no longer have a battle to fight... and if so, how long in the future will it be where we have to fight them again when they become stronger and more of a threat.... It's all a calculation... we know the battle isn't finished.
The world would have been better off it that McCain creature had never been released from North Vietnamese prison camps. Now he's become the same as his Vietnam captors, except far worse and less humane, and as a few other political US monsters, a shill for random bloody wars on civilians, incessantly shouting on controlled media for more and more campaigns of mass murder and suffering.
Brianb, we can't kill everyone who hates us and we can't shove American culture down their throats. So how does staying longer change any of that?
"...not to win the hearts and minds of the indignant's."
Now that is a truly inscrutable statement!
Mark,
Only a sad excuse for am American could make a statement like this.
I do not give a damn what political stripe an American is, Any service member confined as a POW should be returned home as fast as humanly possible. They should be treated with the utmost respect and lauded for their sacrifice as the HEROS they are!
Politically McCain is a right wing lunatic, and I cannot agree with any of his political positions, but anyone who says that he should have been left to die in an enemy prison camp, should be given a taste of what it was like as punishment for such a statement. FOR THE REST OF THEIR MISERABLE SCUMMY LIVES!
Amen Egilman - Mark,before you make such statements,do a little research. As Egilman said - you don't have to like the man's politics, but to wish him harm?!
I guess Captain Kickass will have to break out the whipping post and tie his generals to it then beat them silly. Didn't Obama tell the nation that significant draw downs would occur by the end of this year?
I guess the real Obama hasn't stepped out yet and ordered his generals to comply with his draw down order. When will the president comply with his own directives?
Of course everyone on this board knows that Brian (lotsanumbers) with his vast military experience attended the Pentagon War College and is privy to top secret military planning. How else could he know so much?
...but, of course, on the day where there actually are significant draw-downs in US Forces in Afghanistan...
...well, lets just say folks like Brian better be wearing their brown pants that day.
This isn't about me you two. This is about what Obama said. Captain Kickass directed the military to draw down... but some of his generals seem to disagree with him. I wonder who knows more about what's going on there... the generals or Captain Kickass.
Of course Obama simps never remember what he says... They are more interested in talking nonsense about their views of other posters... in whimsical ways that have no meaning whatsoever.
Way to go Brian...trying for the local Vaudeville act with your prolific use of "Captain Kickass"? You haven't regurgitated a coherent thought in weeks.
Seriously, you need a new schtick...try conspiracies and non-troversies...they suit you better.
How about you Torpedo, what knowledge would you have besides being stuck on a ship? You still have a clearance? Brianb's comment was an opinion, was it not?
Brianb - Obama has said we need to make an orderly withdraw of the combat troops by 2014.But we will still keep 15,000 Special Forces and support there. The Generals want us to keep the numbers high until the country's security forces are able to handle the job on their own and until we can confidently say we control more areas than we currently do. Others are saying we should leave RIGHT NOW!!!
The CIA (and military) want us to keep a footprint in Afghanistan for any future needs and to maintain some bases for the same reason and for intelligence gathering. Afghanistan is situated near several hot spots or places of interest - China,Iran, Pakistan,Russia. So we need to keep some type of forces there.
But the country of Afghanistan will never be stable enough to run itself,if that's what we are waiting for. As long as Pakistan is having a feud with India.Pakistan is happier having an unstable Afghanistan because they feel if Afghanistan is stable, India will become allies and Pakistan will be surrounded by unfriendlies.(India has made overtures to Afghanistan).I have read that Iran also benefits from an unstable Afghanistan - don't see that one. And then the Afghan government itself - Afghanistan has never had a strong central government -the terrain has a lot to do with that. Karzai stays in power because he pays off corrupt province rivals with provincial governships. Without a corrupt government he can not stay in power - and he wants to stay in power above all else. If the Taliban come back and have any part of governing - he will not last. He has no desire to see us go ever.So it pays for him to keep the country in turmoil and the U.S. unsettled. Since Jan. of last year 1 in 7 of the Afghan security forces have deserted.We have not been able to keep a trained force of the size we need to leave behind. It's a no win situation. We could stay there forever and it will revert back to the same mess it was in in the first place. And our men and women will die at a greater rate the longer we are there.
And yet - as the generals say - we can not bring the Taliban to the table to get some type of coalition government going with them,(so we can hand it off) if they think we have no bargaining power.And our bargaining power is "we are going to stay until we are satisfied you can run yourselves".
And at home we have a hotly contested election going and people demanding we bring the troops home now. Honestly - what a mess. Anyone who says they know exactly what to do, I would look askew at. It's one of those,no matter what you do, it's gonna' be wrong.
Yup. I can't get behind a decision to keep the troops there now, much less continue the presence.
Obama needs to do the right thing, and establish a clear distinction with romney. A great way to do that would be to quit killing brown people for no reason.
tek,
lemme fix this for ya....
A great way to do that would be to quit killing people for no reason.
There, reads so much better now....
Aside from the correction above I agree with your sentiment 100%
If the civilian authority wants the troops out tomorrow, it is the duty of the military to follow that directive. That is how it was set up to start with. The civilian authority decides. Otherwise, why even have a civilian government. Just hand everything over to the generals.
Bring our young people home. We can do nothing more in Afghanistan. (Or truthfully, any middle eastern country. They don't like us.)
I agree,
It's way past time to bring the troops home, any point to being there has long since ended.
Leave that miserable country and it's stone age society to the people that love it.....
Why would anybody listen to American generals. Of course their opinion will be to continue any war, illegal or not, they need to continue creating the image of danger so they and their mafia defense contractors can milk the american public for hundreds of billions a year. Today's American generals are criminals whose only job is to conduct illegal invasions and occupations, pillage sovereign countries and mass murder civilians for profit.
Mark,
Are you really trying to be a petulant bore, or, does it just come naturally?
The Generals take their orders from the civilian leadership, namely the president and his appointed representatives.
You wanna blame someone, blame the politicians, Bush and Obama, they are the ones that created and prolonged this mess, leave the people just following the orders of their legally appointed superiors alone.
My suggesion, is take a deep breath, and look in the mirror if you want a view of the biggest "petulant bore" in the room. Nazi generals also "took their orders" from "politicians". However that didn't stop them from being labelled criminals and hung at Nuremburg. American generals are guilty of the most obscene crimes against humanity you can imagine. Sorry there is no way you give them a pass and they duck responsiblity for their crimes with your "only taking orders" excuse.
Mark,
Evidently, you do not know much about the Nuremburg Trials do you?
this is easy....
The International Military Tribunal was opened on October 18, 1945, in the Palace of Justice in Nuremberg. The first session was presided over by the Soviet judge, Nikitchenko. The prosecution entered indictments against 24 major war criminals and six criminal organizations – the leadership of the Nazi party, the Schutzstaffel (SS), Sicherheitsdienst (SD), the Gestapo, the Sturmabteilung (SA) and the "General Staff and High Command," comprising several categories of senior military officers
But before you jump all over me for the "General Staff and High Command" you need a bit more info....
The Tribunal also found that the organizations below were not criminal in and of themselves....
Reichsregierung
"The General Staff and High Command" was found not to comprise a group or organization as defined by Article 9 of the London Charter
Sturmabteilung
This was just a quick look at the Wiki page on The Nuremburg Trials, I'm sure there are a bunch more pages you would learn from if you choose to.
But to equate American Soldiers in the middle east with and as NAZIS, You are acting like a CLUELESS DOLT who really needs some education.
In general, the German Officer Corps from WWII all 600,000+ of them didn't get charged with anything, the few that were in charge of the camps did but that was a very minute percentage of the total number of officers......
There you go, make another idiotic claim,
Have a nice day.
We need to get out now.
If we can't train the Afghanistan people to take over their own country in 10 years then it will never be done.
Just like Iraq we can't stay there forever even though the republicans wanted to.
NO WAR IN IRAN EITHER.......
Republicans want all these wars they are just unwilling to pay for them with tax increases. The republicans would rather our country be drowned under the weight of our debt than ask the rich 1% for even a thin dime. In fact the republicans want to give the rich even more tax cuts and increase the debt with more wars.
We have a run-a-way tax cuts problem, not a spending problem.
OBAMA/BIDEN 2012
AF,
DAMN!
For a minute there I thought we were going to have a post we completely agreed on.
But then you had to add that political tripe to yours, Why can't it just be
Bring the boys HOME!
It doesn't matter what political position anyone has, the troops need to come home NOW! No excuses get them out now.
OBAMA/BIDEN 2012? After the war spiel?
psssh! Those guys promoted the multi-country war general Petraeus to head of CIA and they're dropping drone bombs everywhere...don't even mention Libya. They deserve credit for extending much of the neo-con agenda.
witm,
Unfortunately, you are never going to get past the unbridled hatred for bush to ever get them to recognize just how much Obama has contributed to the war mentality. So much So that he is just as responsible as Bush...
Let's get the "F" out of there. That place is a crap hole! Let Karzai and his minions stand on their own, that's what they want. Hamid and Friends will be swing from the lamp post in downtown Kabul shortly after we leave.
Devie,
If they do wind up hanging from the lamposts, it's not our problem....
I agree we need to COME HOME!!!