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Subscribe to RSSNBC's Mark Murray and Domenico Montanaro discuss the difference between John McCain in 2008 and Mitt Romney’s 2012 bid for the White House.
Thanks to Jody, Iowa for the question!
Edited by NBC's Morgan Parmet.
TRANSCRIPT:
MARK MURRAY: Welcome to the latest edition of Inside the Boiler Room. I'm Mark Murray, joined by my partner in crime, Domenico Montanaro. Domenico, we've got a question from Jody, Iowa, long time commenter on the sight. Jody asks, "In 2008, Mike Huckabee won Iowa and won much of the South. In 2008, there was chatter about John McCain not being able to lock up the nomination. What do you think is the most significant difference between John McCain in 2008 and Mitt Romney in 2012?”
DOMENICO MONTANARO: Well, there are a couple of significant differences. One, just on how the mechanics of the nomination process works. Last time around, we had a lot of winner take all states. This time, because of how they changed the rules, they're more proportional. So a candidate could stay in longer. So a lot of these candidates instead of dropping out because they know what momentum means, which was that they could get a lot of winner take all states and it would essential be over pretty soon. They figured, I'll stick around. Why not? I'll pick up some delegates.
But the other thing that's a real important difference between these two guys is narrative.
Mitt Romney doesn't have the thing that he could fall back on like John McCain did as a war hero. Every event that you went to with John McCain there was this war hero video that he would play. People respected and knew that background of him as somebody who had been tortured, who had a lot of credibility. So people didn't go personal on him because they knew of that backstory. So even for folks in the South who might not trust John McCain. For people who become Tea Party folks who didn't really love John McCain. They still held their fire a little bit because they knew of his backstory.
MARK MURRAY: Well, Domenico, this stage in 2008 in March, John McCain had almost something of a 45 positive/25 negative fave/unfave. Mitt Romney's numbers are actually under water on that score. You raise a really good point on the narrative.
I'd add just one more thing that John McCain was also a Maverick. He was willing to buck his party and that actually appealed with independents a lot and so he had those two things going for him.
Mitt Romney's narrative right now is I'm a business guy who can turn around the economy. That seems to be falling on flat ears with the Republican electorate so far even though he is ahead.
One other thing, John McCain also won South Carolina, which Mitt Romney was unable to do. So when Mike Huckabee was able to beat John McCain in numerous southern contests, particularly on Super Tuesday in 2008. John McCain was able to say look I still won the state that had at that point always decided presidential nominating contest.
DOMENICO MONTANARO: Well and I think your point on the appeal to independents is something that is different from last time around because John McCain, having that Maverick narrative, he did have that positive score which would help him in a general election. Of he wound up losing anyway, but Mitt Romney seems to have been hurt in this process among independents. I'm sure how much the Maverick thing helped him with Republican primary voters. He had basically an apology tour for bucking his party on one major issue which was immigration.
MARK MURRAY: Right.
DOMENICO MONTANARO: And until he was able to overcome that hurdle, it was very difficult to see him getting the nomination, but he did unlike Mitt Romney in healthcare.
Leave a Comment:
Was th old Senator McCain gunning for women like Romney, Santorum et al.?
A few days ago about Planned Parenthood, Romney said "We're going to get rid of that."
He advocates eliminating Title X, all reproductive rights, women's health and planning. Trying to out-right the righties all right.
Romney's skin is splitting open like that of a pupae ... what is emerging ... arrg it's Mothra.
Where's Godzilla when you need him?
Godzilla retired 5000 years ago. All those kids riding on his back tuckered him out.
Ideology, wrong wrong wrong! Godzilla was a female.
I was too scared to look Chucky
I wonder how she (godzilla) felt about contraception?
Egilman,
I would agree with anything she wanted! (Those laser beam eyes, ya know)
Um, would you consider Godzilla an amphibian? If so, could she not impregnate herself? (It has been too many years since I took a biology class)
Arggggg! Godzilla! ;-)
Attack of The
GOPTerrornauts http://youtu.be/nlxrfZMdB24Grover Norquist as The Cosmic Man http://youtu.be/liDMrj9fnjA
Oh No! Lookout it's The Giant Behemoth! http://youtu.be/kncn9J_lunU
Look what happens when you piss women off! Attack of the 50 Ft. Woman http://youtu.be/w8VNS3GQsMo
Cynthia,
Please work the movie "The Blob" into this. I loved that movie, with Steve McQueen. It is a cult classic.
It was an overreach on my part but the 50 foot woman was my first true love. Those never ending legs!
If Romney gets to be the nominee, PLEASE pick someone intelligent to be your Vice-president. The worst thing that McCain did for the country, was to create the abomination called Sarah Palin...That was as bad as getting a national rash. We thing that we finally got rid of it, just to appear again with a vengance, giving us a difficult time, with pustules and pus.
Please....pick someone SMART to be your vice-President, not a dumb reality parasite
Ideology, I share your love of strong women.
For myself, always like Dracula. Something very sensual about the guy. Today's vamps, boring! (Bela was the best Dracula)
The biggest difference between McCain and Romney is McCain actually wins elections more frequently than every third or fourth time running.
I suppose Gingrich will do as The Blob! http://youtu.be/XhyRpvgm03g
yes , Phine Bela Lugosi was the best Dracula!check this one out. http://youtu.be/fq4qB9AwGYE
Cynthia, what did the Blob ever do to warrant such a distasteful comparison. I'm sure the Blob is now in a corner somewhere, crying because someone compared him to Newt.
And Bela Lugosi definitely ruled!
Cynthia,
Thanks! That was AWESOME! Bela and those eyes......................................
Chucky,
The Blob may escape now with climate change. They did freeze him and send him to the north pole!
Pray tell how it is established Godzilla (perhaps one of the greatest movie monsters EVER) was female?
Crankin' Blue Oyster Cult Godzilla. Oh no, there goes Tokyo, go, go Godzilla!!!
Great tune Mark, takes me back to my college days. As for Godzilla's gender, she was a mother, so I made a natural assumption as to gender.
Forget the Moon colony Newt! Mars Needs Women! http://youtu.be/nlxrfZMdB24
And here's Calista! http://youtu.be/H5bEeni-OCc
Romney speaks to the other candidates! ;-) http://youtu.be/MPMmC0UAnj0
Hmm, let's see now... McCain and Romney...
Well they are both old white dudes, both are rich with lots of homes--though Romney is more so, McCain changed his position according to the last person he spoke with on his cell phone (AKA "Maverick") and made 360 flip-flops on his own legislation when "primaried" from the Teabagger far Right (JD Hayworth), neither showed good judgement with McCain picking Sarah Palin and Romney failing to condemn Rush Limbaugh, neither like talking about their religious faith much...
Military service versus Bain Capital, okay, understanding public policy versus business debauchery, okay, McCain standing up to the Birther/A-rab conspiracy, winning the nomination with real support rather than a mathematical process of elimination by which the Party is forced to support him as a candidate, okay...
Yeah, McCain looks better--quite a bit better (minus Palin), and he lost in 2008. Obama/Biden - 2012!
McCain is the only Republican leader I know of who has told the rabid right Obama is a Christian and born in the USA and to stop spreading the hate.
Romney doesn't have the integrity to stand up to Rush Limbaugh. That's the difference.
Excellent point, Amy, good question, Jody, and nice analysis from Mark and Domenico. McCain having his military record to fall back on did make a big difference, and I too appreciated the fact that he was one of the few on the right to take a stand on all the birther/Muslim stuff. When I was phone-banking or out canvassing for Obama in 2008 and came across someone leaning towards McCain, I always made it a point to try to be nice and polite and made it clear that I honestly admired him for his military service and yes, ma'am/sir, he sure is a patriot, and oh, by the way, did you hear what he said about Obama being a Christian? - but that I mainly disagreed with his politics - and his lack of judgement in picking Palin as a running mate. When I go back out this year, I think I'll have a hard time coming up with something similar I could say - and actually mean - about Romney. I don't think "his jeans are always nicely creased" is gonna cut it.
Great point, Amy. McCain called then-Senator Obama a "good man" who he had differences with. Who would have thought that would become a profile in courage for the Republican party, not to be matched today.
Congratulations on having your question selected, Jody.
JoAnne---you could say Mitt does his own laundry when he travels!
Seriously, I did some phone calls for the Obama campaign and one thing they stressed was to tell the truth and be positive about Sen. Obama, not tear down Sen. McCain. Wonder if the Republicans will take that same high road this year?
Lets not forget that John McCain got booed by the audience when he challenged that woman on her lies. Would Mitt Romney's desire to please the GOP masses ever allow such an act or would he crumble like a house of cards if an audience of Republicans booed him?
Steeler Fan - when would the GNOP ever take the high road if someone is saying something disparaging against OUR President? Sanitorium had the chance...but that yellow streak on his back sure stuck out.
....... as opposed to Obama's integrity, who glady took the million dollar endorsement from a guy that called a VP candidate a c^nt?
Noid, You already know the answer, he would do what he does best Flip-Flop and tell them what they want to hear. No matter what state Mittens is campaining in he flip-flops and tells that state only what they want to hear, even when it's 180 degrees to what he said three states ago.
Uh...yeah, that was a donation to the SuperPAC supporting the President.
(Remember, they can't coordinate...wink-wink!!!)
Yea, I knew one of the Dumb Fux crowd would try to excuse Obama with that .... "wink-wink."
er, Bob. Obama can't give the money back to Maher, because his campaign is not allowed to coordinate with the independent Super Pac.
How is that an "excuse?" Its a fact.
(Thank you Robert's Supreme Court!)
er, you can't be that naive and obtuse.
Regardless ... and just for fun ....
Why hasn't Obama spoken out about Maher, what prevents him?
Did Obama call Palin to reassure and comfort her like he did Fluke?
Or is it ok to say c^nt ... must be less offensive than slut, or refering to the opposition as dumb fux ... or do we need to change the spelling.... probaly ok to call someone who calls people dumb fux a stupid kunt, huh?
Sheez ..... What is wrong with you people?
That's what I was wondering Bob... How the hypersensitive liberals towards anything republican can dismiss something as blatant as what Maher said towards Palin. The only reasonable explanation is the liberals don't care what they call republicans, but if a republican calls a liberal anything worse than late for dinner, their entire group raises up arms and are ready to shoot republicans dead.
Rush just didn't call Miss Fluke a slut and a whore. He made up an entire lie about her and then spent 3 days on his sex fantasy and it got worse and more abusive everyday.
Now who else did that?
The republicans didn't seem to have a problem with any of it. I think McCain the only decent republican left, it appears, that could even say what Rush did was awful.
http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/15/axelrod-limbaugh-maher-sexist-comments-different/
Here's how axerod explains the difference between Maher and Limbaugh.
Axerod needs to take a shower to wash off the filth and grime.
Bob & BB,
You both know me. I am no radical. But to use the excuse the other guy did it is NO excuse. And you both know it. Would you let your children get away with it? Rush compounded his mistake by carrying it on for days. We all know that. Admit he was wrong. And let's move on to other issues. I am certain we have more problems in this country than talking about Rush & Maher.
Since all you liberals are so in love with McCain, I guess you are all for his beliefs that we should nuke Iran at first opportunity?
How bout it guys, you liberals all for the use of nukes now?
;-)
phine,
No one is going to call me a liberal as I'm sure you are aware, Rush lost any last credibility with this last rant.
He hasn't been seriously relevant for the last 15-20 years....
Egilman,
Everyone should admire Sen. McCain's service (since he was Navy, he has a special place for my Navy vet). However, while appreciating all the decent things he has done, one can, respectfully, disagree with his political stands. And bombing Iran is NOT the wisest thing to do. Personally, I feel the Arab League (who are the most afraid of Iran getting a bomb), should take the lead in this. As they should in Syria. Just my opinion. I represent no party or candidate.
phancy, in regards to your comment: But to use the excuse the other guy did it is NO excuse.
I regretfully have issues with your premise. Considering the amount of flair up on the liberal side over Rush's remarks... initiating boycotts for sponsors of Limbaugh's show, the complete indignation of the left and the utter severity they were imposing on the right, while completely ignoring what Maher said, is a little over the top as far as I am concerned when it comes to double standards. I know the left has double standards all over the place and I am just plain tired of being complacent about it from a fairness standpoint.
Is it important? In some ways not in the least... but the entitlement the left feels it has to hold republicans/conservatives in contempt over the same things they do is just plain getting on my nerves.
Do you think the left is justified for doing the same things they blame the right for? Very simple question.
I have never been a fan of Rush. I heard a few of his shows years back and not since. I condemn his remarks. I condemn Mahers remarks.
Sandra Flukes testimony IMHO an embarrassing moment for her. Her testimony was nothing more than two bit political stunt and was deserving of criticism. Rush was on the right side of the issue but lost the argument by carrying on like an imbecile.
I have to add that Axerod is wrong to simply refer to Maher's rehetoric as "stand up". Maher's show is "Politically Incorrect". He may be a comedian but he is a political commentator. Just because Rush has a bigger audience is not an excuse for Maher.
BB
No one, and I do mean no one, is justified in the vile language and name calling that has gone on. But, name calling was not the only thing this radio entertainer did now, was it? And it wasn't just a one hour thing. He carried it on for days. Do you see the difference? How about this, Maher is on a station one has to pay for. Rush is on free radio. Any difference there? I am not justifying one for the other. Maher was wrong, too. But, you must admit Rush carried the thing on too long and too far.
And off topic, but last glance at the score had North Dakota State ahead of Baylor.
I agree with Brian. The whole boycotting thing is getting ridiculous.
Most non-political women I know think the C word is a show stopper.p>
I haven't heard a word Limbaugh has said. Don't care.
Nevertheless .....
From Encarta:
slut - an offensive term for a woman who charges for engaging in sexual activities.
Fluke in effect wants to charge everybody else for her birth control and birth control / contraceptives are required for .... sex.
How is what Rush said, by definition, inaccurate?
And don't me give the crap about her friend with cysts .... Fluke even admitted contraceptives were covered in these cases by their insurance.
And don't give me that crap about it being denied .... sheez Fluke has been going to school for what 24 years (the poor child is 30!), is a 3rd year law student and can't figure out the appropriate way to handle the denial?
Or do insurance companies simply have no right to question claims / request?
Maybe not, maybe the $50,000 a year free education is a horrific waste of tax payer money, if she can't figure that out, or figure out that her $3,000 a year expense is only $9 a month at a Target or WalMart.
Bottom line - Fluke is an admitted political activist that jumped on the national political stage to promote her political agenda ...
Give up all the fake sancitimony, outrage and high school histrionics ... time to grow up.
Rob,
Both words are wrong. Period. No sliding scale with me. (Full disclosure here, I don't have HBO and have never watched Maher)
Bob,
Asking to see sex videos goes beyond the pale. We both know it. Both men were wrong. Admit it and move on. This is starting to sound like a Verdi opera!
phancy - BTW I feel you are more phancy than phine. :o)
Maybe you are missing what I am saying. I'm not micro-analyzing what Rush said or did, or what Maher said... They both were wrong in the words they chose. I am NOT defending Rush. I am bringing out the point of the double standard. That's the issue. The reaction of the left over Rush, while completely ignoring or disregarding Maher. The problem lies much deeper than what they said. Double standards are a fundamental and problematic reason the right doesn't get along with the left. More arguments evolve from one side or the other taking issue with the other side, when an issue is formulated in finger pointing.
phinephancy,
When did Maher call Palin a c^nt?
What a year ago?
The right have a big up-roar last year?
Are they the ones pushing this ..... are they the ones fabricating the "war on women" crap?
No one on the right is defending Limbaugh. He may have had a point but he went over the top.
Why are the ones that keep bringing the whole thing up on the left. Who started this very thread and what did it have to do McCain /Romney?
BB
I am a very phancy phine phemale! (Had to think about that LOL)
I do understand what you are saying, but all this could have been nipped in the bud if someone on the GOP side had stood up to Rush and said he was wrong. Also, I have noticed that both these sides will take the least little thing (this wasn't a little thing, IMHO) and blow it WAY out of proportion. I just miss reasoned thoughtful debates of the real issues we face.
Bob,
Like I said, I don't watch Maher. I didn't even know about it until all this blew up. Please forgive me for not being outraged at the time.
Off topic, think Peyton will go to Tennessee or Denver?
Maher? Rush? Who cares? I prefer George Carlin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk
Bob#,BrianB, Rob in Ma
Listen up! I will repeat what I posted over two weeks ago.
Rush's remarks about Ms. Flukes showed the underbelly of sexism. Objectifying women as only mother or whore reveals his misogynist male fantasy. Women are more than biology or a sex object.
Bill Maher , whose show I have never seen , is also walking down the same road by using demeaning locker room words to describe Palin on national TV.
By the way this thread is about a comparison between Romney and McCain.
Now carry on gentlemen....
I noticed one big difference between Romney and McCain. Romney has better hair. But, McCain has the sneaky, sailor wit and humor.
Chucky,
I loved George Carlin.
Northstar,
When I looked up the definition of a 'prick' - it gave the description of men who don't possess enough dimension to be a dick!
It certainly applies with these misogynists!
If anyone of them are lucky enough to have women in their lives - those women have my deepest sympathies!
PS: Jody - CONGRATS on having your question selected! ;o)
Phine, IMHO, no one nailed politics as good as George Carlin.
Feisty,
Some men just don't get it.
BTW you are getting mail....
Chucky,
The Smothers Brothers weren't too bad at it.
Since all you liberals are so in love with McCain, I guess you are all for his beliefs that we should nuke Iran at first opportunity?
How bout it guys, you liberals all for the use of nukes now?
I am not sure what "liberals" you are talking about. As far as I am concerned, McCain, Joe Lieberman and that other retard called Lindsey Graham could get in uniform and march at the tune of the 3 stooges when they get to Afghanistan, and we finally get rid of them as "collateral damage"
irespond - so now you have reached the point in political discourse where you want to see those that you are opposed to dead? Tell me, is this a liberal thing? I haven't seen where someone from the right has wished the same thing on a liberal.
Don't you think your comments are a little over the top? You do know what death is, don't you? You do know the severity of wanting to see someone you politically disagree with, dead?
Are you staging the game where you are ready to march the streets and shooting conservatives, or anyone you deem republican?
irespond - so now you have reached the point in political discourse where you want to see those that you are opposed to dead? Tell me, is this a liberal thing? I haven't seen where someone from the right has wished the same thing on a liberal
First of all, I was just talking the same language of the Republicans. Lindsey Graham was on TV last night saying that the children and families killed in the recent rampage shooting in Afghanistan was exactly that: "Collateral Damage"; and that we should "move on". I was just wondering how those words would feel to him coming from a person that had his children murdered by a soldier suffering from PTSD.
Those three: Jhon McCain, Joe Lieberam and Lindsey Graham are continually talking about how much we need to go to war, and keep troops in Afghanistan. It is more than obvious that they are lobying for the war machine that always bring business to the GOP.
It is not a "liberal"thing. I always operate in the golden rule: Treat others the way you would like to be treated. If those three really want to keep the war going, they need to start by giving an example, and either send their families -something that they never will- or stop talking about sending new troops. They are really annoying a lot of people.
I think that you probably old enough to understand that.
Bob: you seriously are going to repeat the lie that supporting contraceptive access makes women "sluts" or that women don't pay for those contraceptives already out of their own insurance so getting contraceptives makes them "prostitutes"? You are seriously going to defend the three day verbal assault on national radio of an unknown young college student for daring to speak on national policy concerning women at a public hearing? If you have any women at all in your life, call them over and tell them they are "sluts" for using any kind of birth control. We'll wait here while you have a bit of sense kicked into you about why that might not be a good idea.
Firstly, Ms. Fluke and nearly all women already have access to contraception, for if they did not it would put the lie to the idea that "98% of Catholic women use it," maybe they can just pay for it themselves if it isn't covered by their insurance, as one would expect at a Jesuit institution which precisely no one is required either to attend or to support. Secondly, I question if she were actually providing her own if she truly believed the annual cost of The Pill to be $1,000 -- and I'm not only NOT calling her a "slut", I refuse even to call her a "liar" as I do not know her at all and if I were to speak publically of a woman of whom I have no knowledge in such a way, I can practically see my mother rising from her grave to slap me down, and was somewhat surprised not to hear Rush say that he was haunted by precisely the same image.
Rlquall - I'm not sure Rush had a mother. He was hatched or found under a rock.
Congratulations, Jody on having your question answered.
As a Democrat, I was actually afraid McCain would win because he transcended partisanship so often, by befriending Democrats, being open with the media and holding his own position against Bush. Then he chose Palin, and I knew: there is no such thing as a Republican who would be a good President. At least, not since Gerald Ford.
Amy, sometimes I think you are a dreamer.
You make our Gov.LePage out to be incompetent, when he found millions of dollars in DHS fraud,The Maine State Teachers Assciation double dipping fraud. He inheirted more than a billion dollars racked up by the Democrats majorities in Maine the past decades.Look at all the scandals he's uncovered with the help of The Heritage Foundation.Maine was in a freefall untill he showed leadership.
Mc Cain speaks out if both sides if his mout.He is a warmongerer and too old to carry on.
A democrat you are,but not an honest one.Please When Charlie Summers, or Bruce Poliquin take Sen.Snowes place be a lady about it,and Falmouth is not the richest town in Maine.
McCain tried to always be honest and tell people what he thinks.
Romney is rarely honest and always tries to tell people what he thinks they want to hear, which is rarely what he believes in.
Uh...yeah, that was a donation to the SuperPAC supporting the President.
(Remember, they can't coordinate...wink-wink!!!)
One of the great shames in 2008 is that John McCain appeared to lose himself in an effort to win "The Base" that rejected him in 2000. I remember watching him speak at the Alfred E. Smith Memorial Foundation dinner in October of that year. Dude KILLED during his speech!
(Transcript here: politicalhumor.about.com/od/johnmccain/a/mccain-al-smith.htm)
All I could remember thinking at that moment was, "Where has THIS John McCain been hiding all year long?"
I don't believe that McCain ever changed a position between 2000 and 2008. I believe he stayed true to his political beliefs between the two campaigns. However, I think he lost his touch with the people and became someone he wasn't.
Romney's problem is that the touch that McCain has with people (which showed up at the Al Smith dinner) has never been there. I see a guy on the campaign trail trying to show that he's "one of us"...and he's just not...and it's painful to watch. Add to that the number of positions that he's abandoned completely in the hopes of demonstrating what he might pass off as "Conservative bona fides" and I see an awkward candidacy.
One final point...McCain knew how to close the sale in 2008. Romney's yet to make the case.
Some Logic for the ones that are deceived by the Right Wing Propaganda machine...
Logically,
Since the Republican Party is the self-proclaimed Capitalist Party
And Capitalist love money
And Since the Republican Party is the self-proclaimed Christian Party
and Christianity believes the Bible is the word of God (I do too, but that doesn’t matter here)
and the Bible says in I Tim 6:10 “For the love of money is the root of all evil“
Then logically, we can say that capitalists are the “root of all evil”
Therefore we can also say the Republican Party is the “Root of all Evil” Party
works for me!
UAW, I hope that you aren't saying that Liberals don't like money. When have we ever heard of a union staging a strike because they were paid too much or enjoyed too many benefits?
America is a capitalistic society that has been diluted by government. We the citizens have accepted and condoned government intrusion into the capitalistic system so many times that we no longer can claim that we have a true free market economy.
I don't think that successful people are always evil. And I don't think it is a sin to realize the so called American Dream in elevating our positions through our own exceptional minds, gifted skills and tenacious efforts. Rather, we should be grateful that we enjoy a system that permits upward mobility as a reward for our extraordinary achievements.
I hope we do not lose that capability as a nation.
UAW, I hope that you aren't saying that Liberals don't like money
James, I not saying that at all, we could just point at H. Clinton.
She loves money, and people would say she's evil as well, actually, I remember the Righties calling her the anti-christ when her husband was president.
The Republican supporters often call the dems a socialist party, and then call themselves true caplitists. I'm just pointing out that a true capitalist society is an evil dog eat dog society!
very well said
Ecclesiastes 5:19
Moreover, when God gives any man wealth and possessions, and enables him to enjoy them, to accept his lot and be happy in his work, this is a gift from God.
Candice,
Elegant comeback to some seriously fuzzy "logic."
Um, what about that bit about the eye of the needle? Just interested in theological discussion here. (Oh, this is the kind of discussion that drives my priest nuts. When folks just use one part of a Biblical quote to prove their side, and miss the whole point of the passage)
Yes phine,
the worship of money IS the root of all evil....
Ah yes, phine, context, context, context!!
My pretext for "elegant comeback" was Jim used a snippet from the bible as founding argument to condemn capitalism. I took Candice's response as thinly veiled and well-played sarcasm - not as an attempt to directly refute Jim, but to point out the futility of involving biblical passages in arguments involving logic.
Phine, you and your priest are correct, one can "prove" anything by pulling select clips from the bible, and that practice is most aggrivating. Even for an escapee from the evangelical like me!
Now, about the eye of that needle........
UAWMich,
Since the Republicans are so proud to call themselves the capitalists they actually are, I wonder when the Proud Democrats are going to match them and come out of the closet and call themselves the statists they are?
Would seem like the honorable thing to do...
Well, I don't know about Republicans and Democrats want to call themselves, but I do know I better never call the hubby late for dinner! (Egilman, he gets honorably upset to be late) LOL
Exactly.
Selective passages. Selective facts. Selective memories. Selections can be fun but the truth gets lost in selectivity.
Mark,
The Republicans are the ones calling themselves the more "Christian" party. So, I have no choice but to use the Bible to point out there faults. :-)
Egiman, Well Said
UAW.
Then you have to use the whole bible and all of it's meaning ---- not just the few lines from passages that you choose to remember. The more "Christian party" (?) will call you out on that.
Candice,
Selective memory. Reminds me of the "selective memory" the hubby will have when I ask if he has done everything on his "honey - do " list!
And it really, does, the selective passage thing, tick my priest off.
Candice and Mark,
You are are right. It is called proof texting. It is bad theology and simplistic understanding of Scripture.
Candice,
I'm sure you know as well as I do that Jesus spoke out against people with wealth and power. So why do Christians vote for the Republican party that makes no effort to hide the fact that they support the very people that Jesus had problems with? I know there's the whole Gay/Abortion thing but come on now has the Republican Party done anything to outlaw abortion in the last 30 years? Oh they talk about it a lot durring election time to ring in the Christians but then when in power do nothing to actually stop it.
Since the Republicans are so proud to call themselves the capitalists they actually are, I wonder when the Proud Democrats are going to match them and come out of the closet and call themselves the statists they are?
--------------------------------------
Egilman, actually conservatism and liberalism are both statist philosophies. They may differ slightly in degree, but both rely on the power of the state to enact their particular philosophies.
All forms of Government are statist as are corporations. Then of course there is always anarchy.
UAW,
First, I get frustrated, too, when the abortion issue comes up. The law is settled. The country is split. There is no way the Republicans will ever be able to overturn Roe v. Wade. This may not be the truth the far right wants to acknowledge. But it's true. They should move on. They should use their energy working to make abortions few and far between, but they cannot outlaw them.
Now, lets talk about Jesus. Did he speak out against people with wealth and power? Not entirely. He uses many wealthy (for the time) people in his parables - and in a positive light --- ones who were good people and who treated their families and their servants well, (You would have thought Jesus would have demanded the slaves be freed....).
He spoke out against the wealthy ones whose priorities were wealth over compassion and those who behaved badly. He did not make generalizations - unlike we do today. He judged on a case by case basis.
Jesus had special contempt for the tax collectors, by the way.
Ideology, I love Michael Palin's anarcho-syndicalist rant in The Holy Grail:
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government".
He did not make generalizations - unlike we do today. He judged on a case by case basis.
A statement purely based in faith on a set of texts that plagiarised each other written some 100 years after his death by men ... one text, supposedly the words of Mary Magdalena denied a place.
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government".
Chucky ... t'is however a basis for a quiet fantasy.
Which is what I see when I look at most of the wealthy people in this country.
I agree with this one. :)
But you have to realize how taxes were collected in those days. Tax collectors were wealthy people. They would bid on the collection area. Pay the government a set amount, then go out and collect the taxes. Whatever they could get. obviously they would want to collect more then they paid. But you can see that GREED would set in and I'm sure they ended up being terrible, cruel people. This is why Jesus had "Special Contempt" for them.
ideology,
Now that this thread is far afield, you have placed two remarks that tie the discussion of religion and political philosphy together.
"one text, supposedly the words of Mary Magdalena denied a place
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords" t'is however a basis for a quiet fantasy"
i suggest the book, Mary Magdalen :Myth and Metaphor by Susan Haskins.
Haskins examines the figure of Mary Magdalen and how she can be seen as a lens to uncover the prejudices of each century down to the late 19th. The best metaphors have the greatest power.
UAWMichigan Jim,
Oh yes, the tax collectors of the Roman empire. Despised by many but Jesus dined with tax collectors , prostitutes, the rich, and the Pharisees. he invited everyone to come to table. All are welcome, but especially the poor.
Well Said Northstar,
Time for bed,
Peace...
Jim
If only we would follow that one teaching.......
Ironically, I just got word my wealthy uncle took his own life today. So, I have to go. Please, if you pray, say a prayer for my family.
Your family will definitely be in my prayers Candice. Sorry for your loss.
Candice,
God be with you and your family as you mourn the death of your uncle.
Candice,
May God in his infinite wisdom hold and comfort you in your families loss, My prayers are with you...
Chucky, Ideology,
Capitalism and Statism are both arms of the Classic Liberal tree, in their absolute extreme forms they both turn into fascism, Mussolini's Capitalist Fascism or Hitlers Statist Social Fascism, political first cousins.
This country was founded on a political philosophy called American Republicanism.
This represents the founding fathers views that parts of both branches of the dominate political philosophy of the times (Classic Liberalism) could be made to work together to suit their ends, which was to preserve individual liberty.
The Founding Fathers all being classically educated, understood the political philosophies of their day, Enlightenment Republicanism and Classic Liberalism, and used those as the basis for developing their own philosophy.
When you read (if you decide to read) the section on Classic Liberalism, pay particular attention to the comparison between this and Modern Liberalism, it's very revealing...
For further Reading, look here...
Classical Liberalism Explained
Note that the only people whom Jesus ever is represented in the New Testament as physically attacking were in fact bankers and their associates -- TWICE! (John 2:15; Matt. 21:12, Mark 11:15, Luke 19:45)
Candace -- if there is a priest involved with your uncle's funeral, I hope that he is a man of as much sense and insight as the one which you have cited to us!
Rlquall, I see not much has changed with bankers in the last 2000 years.
The biggest difference is that McCain is McCain and even Romney doesn't know who the hell Romney is.
Like him or not, McCain is always going to be an avowed, steady RINO. Romney is always going to be disingenuous and pretending.
James, you stole the words right out of my mouth!
GT, I've been meaning to tell you that I just LOVE your Icon! LOL
Thx Jim - Its my mission in life to piss-off as many teabaggers as possible.
It's very appropriate, considering the level of "service" that we've always received from the Democrat Party around here!
Amy, you can't blame Bob, the Republican party gives there supporters only some information. If they would give them the WHOLE story then their would be a lot more ex-republicans like myself out there.
McCain is the old dog in this GOP kennel, still has alot of bark but he needs to retire...Romney is a smartass pup that needs to be house broken.
Maybe a 12 hour ride on top of the car would do the trick...for the pup, of course
The difference is that John McCain once had a spine (he lost the last vestige of it sometime around when he picked Palin as a running mate). Romney has always been an empty suit.
There are many differences between Romney and McCain. The similarity is what is hampering enthusiasm. The Republican party tends to choose the candidate not because they are the best choice, but rather because they are simply entitled to their turn.
Candice,
Do you have any idea when that practice started?
Phine -- I would say that it goes back at least to Gov. Dewey, with an interruption for Ike when it was actually "owed" to Sen. Robt. Taft, which is why it took three ballots (1952 -- last such convention ever, incidentally, wonder if we are finally going to see another?).
As a young GOP vice presidential candidate was once told, "I knew Jack Kennedy, and you sir, are no Jack Kennedy."
In considering a comparison of Romney, to McCain, I would say: I would have voted for John McCain, but for his choice of a vice presidential candidate. Mitt Romney is no John McCain, and never will be. I will never cast a vote for Mitt Romney. or any of the remaining "GOP Fab Four" John McCain is an honorable man. Mitt Romney will say and do whatever he thinks people want for him to get votes and win.
John McCain is an American first. That is always been clear. Unfortunately, the GOP Fab Four only want to win, no matter what the cost to this nation.
ATC333,
You are wrong, John McCain is absolutely an American through and through, even if his politics are a bit far rightist for me.
Dr Paul is also a through and through American, with more integrity in his little toe than all the rest of the establishment Republicans put together....
Yes, but I wish that his integrity weren't so largely wasted on an ideology that is more suited to the America of the 1920's than the 21st century.
dear mr mcgoo... err ... mcain
save the shred of legacy you have left, retire or have a stroke. AZ needs new leadership representing all of the people, not your palin quitter types.
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There is no difference between these two corporate puppets! McCain was put in to satisfy his military corporates and the Mex. was put in by business corporates. Both are useless to the American People of the United States! THEY ARE ONLY IN THERE TO SATISFY THEIR CORPORATE BUDDIES!!
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!! IT'S TIME FOR CHANGE, AND THAT TIME IS NOW!! NOT LATER, BUT RIGHT NOW!!!
1) In regards to McCain. I would not have voted for him, nor do I approve of his policies, however I can still applaud and respect a man for standing up in the face of lies and disinformation and stating that someone is a good and decent human, especially in the face of his own party base. Both parties need more ability to see the opponent as a human being, rather than some stuffed shirt robot fat cat (Romney), religious nutbag (Santorum) or Kenyan Marxist devil (Obama). The minute we go so far to think someone is the devil or is going to bring about the downfall of civilization as we know it, then we can not have compromise, discourse or a working relationship with them.
2) In regards to the difference between Democratic and Republican nominations, I think the problem is currently that the Republican candidate can not move to the middle. The Republican base as it is seems to demand that the candidate move farther and farther right with every week of the campaign. No one (Obama or Republican Nominee) can win the election with JUST their base. Elections are won or lost with the middle and independants. I personally do not see President Obama as Far Left. I am far left and let me state that I have had some issues with what the President has done (NDAA, caving on Single Payer, etc). Whether he has moved to the middle because of his own leanings or because of a Republican Congress can certainly be debated. However generally the actual Democratic Base does not rabidly demand (as of yet, who knows what the future holds) the President Campaign so far left of middle that he can not attract Indies or the Middle. Fortunately or Unfortunately (depending on your political leanings) that is how it seems to be with the Republican Party in its current form.
Glad that you have problems with NDAA -- think that some of your fellows on the far left are looking foward to using it to silence opponents under the color of "national security", just as some on the far right would happily do. And thanks for resisting the temptation to see real, flesh-and-blood human beings as more than their caracitures, even though they often contribute to that concept mightily themselves.
re: what is emerging ... arrg it's Mothra.
Romney's a lying Mothra Fruker.
t. The worst thing that McCain did for the country, was to create the abomination called Sarah Palin...That was as bad as getting a national rash. We thing that we finally got rid of it, just to appear again with a vengance, giving us a difficult time, with pustules and pus.
Please....pick someone SMART to be your vice-President, not a dumb reality parasite
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Go Sarah go! Sarah in 2012, or 2016 if not. Sarah come live with me in the wilderness. - signed Ted Nugent.
Dr Paul is also a through and through American, with more integrity in his little toe than all the rest of the establishment Republicans put together....
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What?
You're saying R-Money doesn't have integrity?
Come on!
He renounced his own health care plan, because that's just how badly he wants to be President.
Nothing like renouncing your own best idea, for an integrity check, eh?
During the Vietnam War, Romney hid in France until the draft was over. Now, that' a commander in chief in waiting if you ask me.
Today he hides his money in the Cayman Islands. How's that for faith in America!!!
Is that b@da$$ or what?
Go R-money Go!
Rlquall
Glad that you have problems with NDAA -- think that some of your fellows on the far left are looking foward to using it to silence opponents under the color of "national security", just as some on the far right would happily do. And thanks for resisting the temptation to see real, flesh-and-blood human beings as more than their caracitures, even though they often contribute to that concept mightily themselves.
--And yet, wasn't McCain one of its sponsors? But then, that bill is another win-win for Obama haters--if he vetoed it, he would be a traitor, if he signed it, a tyrant.
There really is no comparison. John McCain served his coutry on was tortured. And he stands for square against torture-even when the political advantage wiould be to do the opposite. Romney changes more thanthe saeasons do-he even ourunes Seventh avenue in fashion chages and moments of convience.
John McCain took public financing when he coudl have opted out. He elected to live by the law he wrote-even if it was not convient for him-and he could have done other wise. McCain refused to play the race card, and rebuked those who did publicly. McCain never induglged in "birther" diabrtibes.
McCain used his debate time with Obama to explain why the bailout was necessary, if unfortunate. He could have done something else. He put the country first by explain exactly why touch choices had to move foward.
By contrast MItt Romeny is a man who has no moral core. MCain voted against the Bush tax cuts because hefelt they were wrong. Mitt romney has said he isn't concerened about the poor; McCain voted no because they din't help the poor.
No compaision.
NDAA covered everthing related to defense, including money personnel iin uniform,veterans, and all areas of running the Dept. of Defense. It had to be signed. In the signing statement Obama added, he pointed out that he had no intetion of enforcing indefinite detention. As CIC he is prepared to deal with efforts by armed forces to deal with the law on their own. He outranks all uniformed personnel. The president always does.The law, as presented to Obama was a willful act of the GOP to paint Obama into a corner. He outmaneuvered it and, in doing so provided another good reason for re-electing him.
While we Respect Senator McCain for his service during the Vietnam war, it is not what is needed in the office of the President. We need someone with a successful track record in the world of business. Someone who worked in the private and public sectors, and made money. Someone who knows how to turn around this failing economy. We need Mitt Romney.
Obama shelved in 2012.
speak for yourself
or do you have a turd in your pocket
I respect Audie Murphy and Sargent Alvin York. and men such as these and those that gave their all for this country.
Those that knew evasive manuevers to elude heat seeking missles.
Not some drunk as- Admirals son who got shot down and refused release which would allowed him to fight again.
An ex-investment banker...right. That's exactly what we need. Hahahaha. I'll bet you think it was Barney and Chris that forced all those weak knee bankers to make bad loan decisions, uh?
They both love and worship money.
McCain dumped his wife to marry it.
Romney did it the ole fashion way. He stole it.
Niether know anything about the military.
McCain likes spending war time in a safe prison having his as- wiped because both arms were broken.
McCain is brain-dead. Romney is emotionally in a closet.
willard(the gay caballero) romney father born in Mexico. McCain born in Panama. Both hate immigrants that got here by walking and just want a job so they can send money home to support their families.