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Subscribe to RSSRomney retools his message -- with his biography and even his policy… GOPers and conservatives tell Romney to step it up… Dems break ranks on the contraception issue… Yet polling (for now) shows the issue isn’t as controversial as the noise machine suggests… Jim Fallows on Obama’s first three years… CPAC is back... And Chamber up with House and Senate ads.
Gerald Herbert / AP
Republican presidential candidate, former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney speaks to the traveling press corps after arriving in Atlanta, Wednesday, Feb. 8, 2012.
*** Romney retools his message: Beginning with Romney’s speech on Tuesday night, we can point to four examples how he and his allies have begun to retool his biographical message, trying to expand it beyond the simple “economic fix-it man.” So in his address on Tuesday night, he talked about his father’s humble roots and past work as a carpenter. (It was a little forced and the “pointy end forward” nails example is not his best stump moment, but we digress). Then the campaign released a statement yesterday commemorating the 10th anniversary of the Salt Lake City Olympics and reminding everyone of Romney’s role with it. (“I was deeply honored to have been asked to lead the Olympics and am proud that the games were such a memorable success,” Romney said in the release.) Then, campaigning in Atlanta, he talked about his time as a Mormon lay pastor, something he rarely does. (“In that capacity, I had a chance to work with people who lost their jobs, in some cases, or were facing other financial distress.’) And finally, his son Tagg tweeted an article about how Romney rescued a 14-year-old kidnap victim (a story we heard more about in the ’08 race than the ’12 one). You add up these four things, and it’s an obvious attempt in a 24-hour span to humanize Romney and add more texture to his biography -- beyond the guy who’s good at giving a PowerPoint presentation.
*** And the retool is biographical, policy-based, and anti-Washington: But you also get the sense that Romney’s retool after his losses in Colorado, Minnesota, and Missouri is going to go well beyond biography. He is now set to deliver an economic speech at Ford Field -- where the Detroit Lions play -- on Feb. 24. You don’t create a setting like that unless you have something new to say. Don’t be surprised if this economic speech is used to make a better sale with conservative voters. And when it comes to attacking his GOP rivals, he’s casting both Newt Gingrich and Rick Santorum as Washington insiders. But there’s one problem here: If you’re going to criticize your opponents as being DC insiders, you probably don’t want to come to DC -- as Romney is doing today -- and raising money from these same insiders. As the New York Times writes, “The timing of Mr. Romney’s aggressive assault on Washington was hardly ideal. He is scheduled to spend Thursday in the capital, surrounded by lobbyists and other donors who are each asked to raise $10,000 in contributions before attending a policy discussion. His campaign has designated “Industry Finance Chairs” from the energy, defense and financial sectors.” By the way, don’t expect the same “Empire Strikes Back” style of attacks on Santorum and Gingrich going forward as we saw in Florida. The campaign seems to get that, while effective at defeating Gingrich in Florida, it did damage to Romney as well.
*** GOPers and conservatives tell Romney to step it up: This retooling comes as GOP leaders and conservatives are asking Romney to step up his game. Politico's Martin writes, “A day after Romney was convincingly defeated by Rick Santorum in non-binding contests in Minnesota, Colorado and Missouri, high-profile Republicans voiced long-simmering worries that the would-be standard-bearer lacks a compelling message for conservatives — and must be bolder to capture the party’s nomination.” (And don’t miss this quote from Sen. Jon Kyl in the piece: “Every time he defends his health care action in Massachusetts and every time he says something like [indexing minimum wage], conservatives wonder whether he has the instincts to usually take the conservative position on issues.) And today, the conservative Wall Street Journal editorial page hits Romney’s “inability, or unwillingness, to defend conservative principles. He seems to retreat at the first sound of a liberal moral argument.”
Rick Santorum is trying to capitalize on the momentum from his clean sweep in Tuesday's Republican presidential contests. NBC's Kelly O'Donnell reports.
*** Dems break ranks on the contraception issue: You know where the politics are on this contraception brouhaha -- at least for now -- when Republicans are uniting and when some Democrats are breaking ranks. Tim Kaine, the former DNC chair who’s now running in Virginia’s Senate race and has been searching for a way to show some distance from his former boss, said that he disagreed with the Obama administration’s decision. “I think the White House made a good decision in including a mandate for contraception coverage in the Affordable Care Act insurance policy, but I think they made a bad decision in not allowing a broad enough religious- employer exemption.” Pennsylvania Sen. Bob Casey, who’s up for re-election, also opposes the policy. And West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin, also up for re-election, called it “un-American” and a “direct affront to the religious freedoms protected under the 1st Amendment,” Politico says. If these Democrats running in tough (or potentially tough) races were looking for a way to create some distance from Obama, they certainly found it.
*** Yet polling (for now) shows the issue isn’t as controversial as the noise suggests: That said, supporters of the policy are pointing to polls showing that it isn’t as controversial -- even among Catholics -- as the DC noise machine suggests. A recent Public Religion Research Institute poll found that a majority of Catholics think employers should be required to provide health-care plans covering birth control at no cost. And a Democrat sent First Read a poll conducted by Dem pollster Celinda Lake -- from Aug. 2011 -- showing that 53% of Catholics say that the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops opposition to free birth control in the health-care law makes no difference to them. Also, the Democratic National Committee will hold a conference call at 1:30 pm ET hitting Mitt Romney on this contraception issue with two Massachusetts health-care experts. “Romney is a politically calculating hypocrite, and we're gonna call him out for it tomorrow as a pre-buttal to his appearance at CPAC,” DNC Communications Director Brad Woodhouse says. Still, the White House is well aware they’ve fumbled the roll-out of this policy, and they know they can’t afford to let this debate linger beyond the weekend. Expect to hear something from them -- perhaps from the president himself -- that indicates they are open to finding compromise to implement this policy. And expect to hear something before the weekend.
*** Obama’s first three years: Here’s a good read today: Jim Fallows’ piece in The Atlantic on the first three years of Obama’s presidency. His conclusion: Obama was unready for the presidency (as almost all new presidents are) and temperamentally unsuited to it in several ways. But he also argues that many of his accomplishments -- as well as how quickly he’s learned on the job and from his mistakes -- has been underappreciated. And Fallows makes another point about the importance of 2012 for Obama: The outcome of the election will determine how his first three years in office will be later viewed. “If a year from now Obama is settling in for a second term, a halo effect will extend back to everything he did during his first four years... Yet if a year from now a just-beaten former President Obama is thinking about his memoirs … the very same combination of missteps and achievements will be viewed as a narrative leading inexorably to defeat.”
Slideshow: Obama's third year in the White House
*** CPAC is back: The three-day Conservative Political Action begins today in DC, and here are some of today’s more notable speeches, NBC’s Adam Perez reports: Jim DeMint (9:25 am ET), Marco Rubio (10:35 am), Mitch McConnell (11:50 am), Michele Bachmann (12:20 pm), Rick Perry (1:20 pm), House Speaker John Boehner (1:35 pm), Herman Cain (4:25 pm), and Paul Ryan (7:30 pm). The current presidential candidates speak tomorrow, and Sarah Palin delivers the keynote on Saturday.
*** On the 2012 trail, per NBC’s Adam Perez: It’s a relatively slow day: Santorum stumps in Oklahoma, rallying in Oklahoma City and Tulsa… Romney visits Washington, DC for a reception with VA Gov. Bob McDonnell… And Paul and Gingrich are off the campaign trial.
*** The Chamber goes up with ads: Turning away from the presidential contest, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce is beginning a TV ad blitz in 12 House and eight Senate contests. “The goal is to help Republicans win a majority of seats in the Senate while protecting the GOP majority in the House,” the Wall Street Journal writes. The ads are here.
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Another Thought is Ramney is a tool.
The Labor Department said seasonally adjusted claims dropped by 15,000 to 358,000 in the week ended Feb. 4. That's the second lowest level since April 2008, before the financial crisis that sent the U.S. economy into its worst recession since the Great Depression.
With these numbers, I envision Ramney and all the other Republicans running around as if their hair is on fire saying, "Argggghhhhhhhh... the numbers are good, the numbers are good!! The Spin is just too much!! How do we beat this guy now?!!! Somebody, quick call David Gregory and Chuck Todd and tell them to spin, SPin SPIN!!!!!!!"
Oh this is just too good, good for America and good for the President.
The GOP do not stand a chance and they know it. That's why Jeb, Mitch and Christy did not run.
We stand united behind the President hell or high water.
The Underlying Issue:
Santorum has won four primaries; Romney has bought two, and Gingrich hoodwinked South Carolina. It seems that the conservatives view Gingrich as too flawed and are beginning to gravitate toward Santorum. Consequently, Romney will now set his sights on Santorum and do all he can to destroy Rick with a plethora of negative ads. That's just how it works in politics; attacking your opponent instead of saying what you believe and stand for. It's no wonder that politicians are right down there with used car salesmen.
But as ugly as the Republican primaries have become, dirty politics is not the underlying issue. The underlying issue is legal. In a 5 to 4 decision the Supreme Court decided in the Citizens United case that corporations can operate like people, set up political action committees (PAC's). and support politicians with complete anonymity. At this point no one knows where the money comes from, with the exception of casino mogul Sheldon Adelson who is bankrolling Newt Gingrich. It has been estimated by Forbes that Mr. Adelson makes about 7 billion dollars a year, which translates to around 3.3 million dollars per hour. So the millions he has donated to the Gingrich campaign is really chicken feed.
Most progressives are disappointed that President Obama has accepted the notion that PAC money is needed to win an election and he too has signed-off on forming a PAC. I don't for a minute believe he wanted to, but under the new campaign rules he also has to dance with the devil (PAC money).
In the very first Presidential election since the Supreme Court ruled on the Citizens United case, we are seeing the consequences of that decision. With unlimited money it is now truly possible to buy an election. Most Americans oppose the Supreme Court ruling and abhor the idea that elections can be bought.
Candidates running for office, Republicans and Democrats alike, need to address our current way of electing our President and Congressmen and women. It is time for election reform that both limits the amount of spending by PACs and reveals the source of their donations.
Gee, listening to lefty liberals that believe in political unicorn fairy tales I got the distinct impression that their Messiah, Barry Obama, was going to transform Washington, not the other way around. The actual truth is that Barry is just another full of sh!t politician looking to keep his hold on power in Washington.
FR lefty liberals repeat after me: As Rick Perry said “Oops”
LMAO!!!!
Excerpts from Politico:
The political transformation of Barack Obama
By: Jim VandeHei
February 9, 2012 04:41 AM EST
There are two indisputable facts about politics.
The first is that every modern president in the fourth year of his presidency resorts to the cheap political stunts, broken promises and truth-fudging it takes to win reelection in what has been and will be a 50-50 nation. The reason is simple: Politics is not clean-living; it’s survival.
The second is that Barack Obama, for all his talk of moving beyond conventional political tricks, is doing just that, which wouldn’t be so glaring had it not been for his incessant call for a newer, cleaner and more transparent paradigm for American politics.
So much for the high road: Victory is more important than purity.
It’s debatable whether Obama is more crudely political than George W. Bush or Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan. But what’s transpired over the past several weeks isn’t debatable: He’s made a series of calculated, overtly political gestures that are far more transactional than transformational.
Here’s just a sample:
Sucking up to Wall Street — again
The president better hope those Occupy Wall Street voters don’t read Bloomberg News. Hans Nichols, who covers Obama for Bloomberg, has a richly reported piece that Obama’s most important advisers are privately pleading with the same Wall Street titans they vilify to help fund their reelection campaign.
A super flip-flop
Obama needs the millionaires in the financial services industry to buy his go-easy-on-you-guys spin because they can cut limitless checks to super PACs.
Super PACSs are the newest way for rich people to influence elections. Obama was vehemently opposed to them, calling them a “threat to our democracy.” That vehemence was heartfelt and consistent — until Monday night, when it wasn’t.
The State of the Union is … very political
No one accuses Obama of playing small ball quite as cynically as Bill Clinton did — no school uniforms this year, thanks. But Obama’s January speech to the country was more like a slam dunk contest than a blueprint for sober governance, with no-miss poll-tested proposals that won’t translate into points on the board unless Democrats win super-majorities in both houses, and even then maybe not.
Jamming the pipeline
Never has Obama more angered an essential part of his political coalition than when he decided last year to punt on stricter ozone regulations — without even alerting Lisa Jackson, the head of the Environmental Protection Agency, until the decision had been made. Environmentalists were apoplectic.
So when it came time last month to pick between environmentalists and supporters of the Keystone XL pipeline, which would move oil and jobs through a key part of the country, Obama had no choice but to go green.
He wanted to punt until after the election, but Republicans forced a decision. Presidents face these political jams all the time. Like it or not, they often choose the path of least political resistance. So Obama did.
The contraception conundrum
The administration’s decision to require Catholic hospitals and universities to provide workers free contraceptive coverage seems on its surface to buck the trend of this story — a principled protection of reproductive rights that risks sparking a culture war with white independents, the critical swing-voter bloc.
But even if you accept the premise that Obama’s original decision was apolitical — and conservatives don’t, accusing him of kowtowing to women’s groups — the president’s advisers are scrambling to defuse an endless stream of attacks from church officials, presidential hopefuls and House Speaker John Boehner, who cast it as an assault on religious liberty.
And that, at the very least, makes the administration appear to be playing politics with a sensitive personal and religious issue.
Will the REAL Mitt Romeny please stand up?
As far as the contraception brouhaha - like I said yesterday, this is a MSM manufactured nontroversey! PERIOD!
Women are capable of seeing through the war that is being waged against them & their reproductive rights!
The polling confirms it!
The attacks on birth control are here again - disguised as fights about states rights or religion. But women aren't fooled and they will fight to protect the millions of Americans who use contraceptives.
Women have a right to plan their families.
Under the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (2005), you cannot offer preventative care coverage without offering birth control as well. Where were the outraged over the last decade?
In 2012, President Obama still requires that health care cover birth control. Without this health care provision, the cost of birth control is between $600 and $1200 per year.
Women should be trusted and respected to make the right decision for themselves and their families.
I read those articles, Joe, and I have one question-
Which Obama do they know who learns from his mistakes?
Only a few weeks ago, Obama took on the Firat Amendment- and lost, 9 to 0. In that case, he argued to force a religious school to reinstate, with back pay, a teacher fired from a job which included secular duties.
Not so fast, held the Court. This teacher ALSO taught religion, making her a minister. Therefore, the school was free to fire her under any grounds, due to the ministerial exception. Her teaching English, arithmetic, spelling, and social studies mattered not one whit, to the Court.
You'd think Obama would learn.
The underlying issue is legal. In a 5 to 4 decision the Supreme Court decided in the Citizens United case, whine, whine, complain, complain.
________________________________________________
Dr. Ron, the SC simply and correctly decided that the First Amendment actually means what it says:
“Congress shall make no law….. abridging the freedom of speech,”
And lefty liberals can whine and complain all they want about the fact that the First Amendment DOESN’T say:
“Congress shall make no law….. abridging the freedom of speech, except for corporations and any others that lefty liberals want to muzzle”
If lefty liberals want to change the Constitution to their liking, then the founders provided Article V for them.
Good luck with that.
LMAO!!!!
Culture Wars
What was the motivation of California voters who passed Proposition 8 banning gay marriage? Were they being punitive by singling out gays and denying them their "right" to marry? Or were they just giving electoral expression to their belief in the need to honor and preserve the integrity of traditional marriage? The distinction is important because the Ninth Circuit has chosen to rule that folks who expressed their belief in traditional marriage can only have done so based on animus towards others – an unwarranted exercise of bigotry that resulted in taking away "rights" guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution. Said the Court:
"The people may not employ the initiative power to single out a disfavored group for unequal treatment and strip them, without a legitimate justification, of a right as important as the right to marry."
If there was ever an example of judicial overreach, this is it. The court decided they knew what was going on in the minds of California voters, and they didn't like what they saw. The court decided voters had targeted a "disfavored group" so they smacked those voters upside the head and told them they are evil people who had done constitutional harm to others. Apparently the court saw fit to ignore any harm experienced by those who take a more traditional view of this issue, a view expressed by a majority of California voters. Indeed, anyone who defends traditional marriage is now on notice that their beliefs –no matter how legitimate the manner of expression – can be interpreted as targeting a "disfavored group" and thereby subject to the intervention of a judiciary that would impose its own values in such matters.
The Ninth Circuit has trampled all over anyone who believes in traditional marriage. In their Alice in Wonderland world, folks who subscribe to the outlandish belief that marriage should be between a man and a woman have actually become the "disfavored group" while the folks who engage in deviant behavior have their unions legitimized under the guise of equality under the law for all citizens. But while "all citizens" includes men and women who practice matrimony the old fashioned way, the majority view of the citizens in California has been found to be less equal than others.
We have met the enemy and he is us. Good grief.
Romney. Do you feel someones sneaking up on you? Is it the boggy man or maybe it's your fellow Repugs who are starting to believe you may not be the "appointed one". Even if it's "your turn". Getting uncomfortable, a little nervous, starting to have doubts? Good. Your starting to create more questions amongst your own Party as to your abilities and more importantly, your electability. The Parties over, get use to it. I LOVE IT.
Obama in 2012.
Obama was unready for the presidency
Not true. It was the Republicans and right wing bigots who WEREN'T READY FOR HIM. Same could be said for much of the media and Hillary supporters. They sat there for 3 years boo hooing every single thing he did.
This is a man who was willing to work WITH ANYONE in Congress to get things done. The right aisle refused. And they were all wrong. He continues to prove it every single day.
Someone who stands practically alone and tells the Nation that the Iraq War was the wrong war IS INDEED READY TO BE PRESIDENT.
He's a leader, not a follower, like most of the media is. They are stenographers to the Republican Party. Just check out most cable programs on any given day.
It's sad. They aren't ready for real journalism. That's the problem in this country. They are afraid to stand up to the GOP and have been for years.
President Obama is changing the course of our Nation, slowly but surely.
The GOP and media weren't ready for it, or him. They are gloom and doom pundits and journalists for the most part. They can't get the concept of our President challenging each other to bigger and better things. To forge ahead into the 21st Century.
The auto industry and Iraq are perfect examples.
btw, men: Stay out of women's private lives as they plan their futures for their families. Okay? We're talking about the law here. There is no room in their lives for religious middle ages bigotry. It has to stop.
************
DailyKos:
The Department of Labor reported this morning that seasonally adjusted first-time claims for unemployment insurance benefits fell to 358,000 for the week ending Feb. 4. That was a drop of 15,000 from the previous week's revised figure of 373,000, and the second-lowest level since April 2008. The 4-week moving average that flattens volatility in the weekly numbers was 366,250, a drop of 11,000 from the previous week's revised average of 377,250.
"If money made the difference, we wouldn't have won four primaries so far."
So said Rick Santorum as he basked in the afterglow of running the table on Tuesday. He's exactly right on that point, and living proof that money in politics isn't necessarily the deciding factor. For all the wailing from the left about the insidious effects of the Citizen's United decision on our politics, at the end of the day candidates win or lose based on how well their message resonates with voters, not on how much Billy Bob outspent Mary Sue.
Money is important to be sure, it gives candidates the ability to buy a bigger megaphone to use in getting their message out. And money is really important to the political chattering class that tends to dismiss candidates who don't have much of it. But money can't buy you political love as failed (but well funded) candidates like Rick Perry or Meg Whitman might point out.
So the next time one of the left wing toads around here goes into their self righteous tirade about wealthy evildoers who are buying elections and subverting the democratic process, remind them of folks like Santorum and Perry who have demonstrated there is more to the game than how many dollars are on your side. Then ask them if someone like Roseanne Barr could win in California or if Ron Paul could win anywhere even if they had a $1 billion war chest.
That should shut them up, but surely it won't. Because the left has rarely been accused of clarity of thought in such matters and there is no reason to expect them to change now.
Backhouse says, "The attacks on birth control are here again - disguised as fights about states rights or religion."
Exactly. Republicans love this in that they think they have an issue they can use to attack Obama and the Dems, but I'm pretty sure it is going to backfire.
Republicans want to pretend this is about separation of church and state, but that is not the issue. The issue is that Republicans don't want women to have access to birth control. Why? Because Republicans still think of women as property.
That the Republicans are retreating to social issues is a pretty good sign that Obama will win reelection. For months we have been hearing that this election will be all about the economy and therefore social issues won't be a factor in this election. We've also been hearing that should the economy turn around Obama will walk to reelection. Connect the dots folks.
Good Morning Pat:
Your comments accurately sets the record straight. President Obama is doing an excellent job as our President.
I trust you have recovered from the Patriots trip to Indianapolis.
As far as the contraception brouhaha - like I said yesterday, this is a MSM manufactured nontroversey! PERIOD!
____________________________________________—
nontroversey (non-truh-vur-see) noun
Any issue lefty liberals realize is a loser for them, and wish it would just go away so they could continue living in the fantasy world of Planet Liberal
Bravo Backhouse. Women aren't going to stand for this. Nor should they.
Kiss Biden GOODBYE!!! He is toast. He will NOT be the running mate.
Can it be? Romney trying to recast himself as a community organizer?
Good Morning Pat.
Wasn't it only last week we taught the Susan B. Komen foundation a lesson?
We are WOMEN hear us ROAR!
Those who ignore us do so at their own peril!
Pat, could not have said it better. They do not want this type of president as they were never prepared for his arrival and they will assuredly fight tooth and nail to prevent it from ever happening again... so Mr. Powell you better get prepared, in spite of you being labeled a Republican, we know you're an American first and they will never allow you to the highest office because of who you are.
It didn't take John Boehner very long to break his promise to honor the United States Constitution. It didn't take many of us any longer to realize that it really didn't matter, because Boehner doesn't understand the Constitution anyway; something he has proved once again.
However, he does understand Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, and he has dragged out a tried and true tactic in the current tempest in a teapot about the Obama Administration "attack on religion". There is no attack on religion. That's BS, but such lies have fabulous appeal to the RINO's who live in Republoworld. Freedom of religion is not under attack, but that doesn't matter to Boehner. All he needs to do is pull out Alinsky tactic number 6: "A good tactic is one your people enjoy." Republicans love to be victims. They don't just enjoy it, they love it.
So it is, Mr. Boehner promises to fight the forces of evil that threaten the sanctity of the First Amendment. Suddenly, Mr. Boehner has discovered the separation of church and state. He just doesn't understand it.
When President Obama offers that dazzling smile, we remember the promise of hope and change. We forget that he is a politician, and the best one in Washington, D.C. Once again, he has laid waste to the weak minds of the right. Boehner's contention that the Obama Administration's insistence that health insurance include contraception infringes on religion is beyond simple-minded. It is embarrassingly stupid.
However, economic indicators clearly favor the President, and Republicans are now desperate for a diversion. This is it, and it is utterly ridiculous. The "new rule" from the Feds is already a rule in 28 of the 50 states. Boehner and his states' rights friends must have missed that fact. Contraception is a non-issue. Does anyone who is remotely in touch with reality honestly believe Catholics are listening to the Pope on this issue?
This is a labor issue, not a religion issue. Every Catholic is still free to practice his religion EXACTLY as he or she did prior to the Sebelius decision to notify employers about their responsibilities. It's about employers, not clergymen. Indeed, the rule ends Catholic employers' discrimination against their employees of other religions, who are atheists, or non-believers that do not have issues with contraception. No Catholic is obligated to use contraception. There is no attack on faith. There is no attack on religion.
It would certainly be wonderful for the country if Boehner would stop this silly posturing and grandstanding. We have more than enough problems without Boehner and company creating red herrings and straw men.
Ron, yes all recovered. I have had worse losses. I'm just sorry that if NE couldn't have won, I would have liked to have seen the Packers or 49er's win. But therein lies the real heart break of the season. The Packers.
Someday the Detroit Lions and Cleveland Browns will make it to the Super Bowl. That's what I'm waiting for.
btw, we all heard extraordinary stories about Indianapolis and the wonderful job they did hosting the SB. Rave reviews from all.
I believe next year it's in NY.
Sean Trende is beginning to see the possibility of a deadlocked or brokered convention and lays out a potential scenario...
----------------------------------------------------------
My assumption -- and the assumption of many -- was that the GOP fight would eventually degenerate into an ideological battle between the very conservative and somewhat conservative/moderate wings of the party, with Romney on one side and a single alternative on the other. Unless there was a late entrant or Ron Paul caught fire in the caucus states, someone was virtually assured of claiming the requisite number of delegates in that scenario.
But for the first time, the two way faceoff doesn't seem inevitable, and a viable path to a brokered convention is beginning to emerge.
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2012/02/09/path_to_a_brokered_gop_convention_emerges_113063.html
Feisty says, "We are WOMEN hear us ROAR!"
Just for the record there are a great many men who are true fans of birth control. There is this thing we like to do that rhymes with dex that we don't always want a reminder of nine months later.
Romney is now Anti government?!?!? Guess that's why they call him "flip".
So Romney is in a new starring role as community organizer? LoL.
This is the guy who said we were envious of his millions.
nisl,
Of course, apologies for omitting the obvious! ;o)
Thanks for the support!
The right wing nut jobs are out today. What a bunch of tools, broken tools that is.
nsl, Pat, Feisty, hi,
Romney's take on women's health is about whatever gets the most votes. But his own MA health law had a contraception requirement very close to the current federal rule. But now for political expedience, Mr. Romney decides that women having access to contraception is a 'violation' of religious principles.
Turns out most Catholic folks (58%) think employers should provide their workers health care plans that cover contraception. Seems folks stopped listening the Vatican on this issue in the mid-1960's.
Since 98 percent of Catholic women use birth control, many Catholic hospitals and universities already cover contraception in their health plans.
Now Romney is anti government? Guess thats why they call him "flip" Every day the difference between Roney and Obama narrows. (becuase of the flipping of course, both are for big government regardless of what they are saying at this particualr time)
So, is Romney is going to run on his record as Governor and Romneycare now?
who will replace Biden on the ticket?
Obama Diary/PM Carpenter:
Appearing on Lawrence O’Donnell’s show last night, the unflappable David Boies, of Bush v. Gore fame, calmly and damn near indifferently explained to his host that there is no — repeat, no — Constitutional, First Amendment issue at stake in the most recent Inquisition into ‘Obamacare’s’ purported tyranny, this time over the Catholic Church’s holy conscience.
To put it idiomatically, this is a no-brainer. Which is also why, of course, culture-warring demagogues like Rick Santorum and suddenly Mitt Romney and virtually half the U.S. House will ride it to absolute exhaustion.
Still, that's what demagogues do. That's what they're expected to do. And who among us cares to fritter much time in blaming lizards for crawling or bats for flapping or black widow spiders for mariticide?
Should we not, however, expect something a bit more honorable from the Church? -- you know, the one worried about its integrity and conscience?
****************
Yes, we should expect something a bit more honorable from the Church. We always sat around talking as kids about the Catholic Church and how the Church liked big families, in order to keep up membership which equals more $$.
They didn't necessarily treat the kids very well who were from these big Catholic families.
Which didn't make a whole lot of sense to us.
This is a man who was willing to work WITH ANYONE in Congress to get things done. The right aisle refused. And they were all wrong. He continues to prove it every single day.
_________________________________
More of the same old, same old, lefty liberal wishful thinking from the fantasy world of Planet Liberal. Within a few days of his inauguration Barry was telling those "anyone's he was willing to work with" who was the BOSS:
Politico 01/23/09:
President Obama listened to Republican gripes about his stimulus package during a meeting with congressional leaders Friday morning - but he also left no doubt about who's in charge of these negotiations. "I won," Obama noted matter-of-factly, according to sources familiar with the conversation.
Barry saying "If you want to sign on to what I have already decided, it's OK with me." is definitely NOT being "willing to work with anyone".
Except on Planet Liberal, where the only religion allowed is Barryism.
Barry was unqualified to be President and he remains unqualified to be re-elected.
Romney retools his message
Translation: He is finding lies that would look good in front of the people. After putting his foot in his mouth several times, he needs more than a PR person to re-write his speeches. He need a miracle.
His lies are turning to be so ludicrous. They remind me of those soap operas where people are so desperate, they will do anything or said anything, just to get what they want.
Poor Romney. If only he knew that at this point, the more he tries, the worse he looks.He is going to end up looking pathethic.
He should "thank" Donald Trump for the endorsement. I am sure that it went well that a couple of billionaries "reached for each other" in -from all places- Las Vegas.
Morons
Pat - Boston Ma - Sorry about the Pats...but being a NYer - Yea G - MEN!-
Next years super bowl is New Orleans - NY in 2014.....
And once again the GNOP has no new ideas on how to make the US better - and so much for less government - when GNOP constantly want to tell woman what they can and cannot do with their bodies...
And as several posters have already said - Boehner - where are the jobs???? Next thing you know the GNOP is going to try and take credit for the good economic news.....
No you're the tool. To simply see the good fortune of Americans returning work as good, or bad, for any Administration just shows how shallow you are. I'll bet you cheered when there was a military setback in Iraq or Afghanistan because it was bad for Bush.
I am happy for the rise in people working (although there are still more people out of work than 5 years ago), because it's good for them, good for the country and at the end of the day good for me.
But you can stay in your sick little world and see everything through the prism of Obama.
The United States Government told the Mormon Church it could not practice polygamy. Republicans are making such a big issue of Catholic-affiliated institutions with non-Catholic employees being told they must provide health coverage for contraceptives as an employer, why the double standard? Was it not an infringement on the Mormon Church's religious doctrine?
Man Alan, personal attacks... when you have nothing to say at all. Priceless.
When Republithugs have no platform, such as Flip Ramney and his minions, and cannot run on his own record (loss of countless numbers of jobs) then they have nothing to present. The negative ads produced by this guy will dwarf all negative ads ever produced in this country and they will all be based on lies and false intel; pretty much the way Flip Ramney would run the country, on lies and false intel.
Not on my watch...
Anyone hear Representative "Paul Ryan" on " morning Joe" today? This man, and those like him, are much the reason why there are so many crazies on the right. He basically said, unless this nation understands and accepts his republican version of governance by the application of austerity, then the country will become a European style socialist state. Went on to reveal within his words, his desire to dismantle social security, health and education, and leave the poor, unemployed, and infirm to fend for themselves. Conversely, he wants to support corporations and business, by assessing less, or no taxes on them, and free them of any and all regulations which might bear them restrictions. Etc. etc. etc. The man sang with the abilities of a flock of golden throated canaries. Great rhythm and melodious quality, with lyrics though, of a sewer rat. Problem with such is, too many get caught up in the soothing quality of the melody, and never hear the lyrics, nor understand their meaning. Wisconsin: You and the country need to be rid of this man.
From First Read:
A Democrat sent an email about a 5 month old poll conducted by a Democrat that supports their position. THIS is evidence? Should have just left that part out I'm thinking. The other poll by the Public Religion Research Institute was enough.
Good to know that Tom Kaine and Bob Casey are weak minded and stupid. Hope the voters in Virginia and Pennsylvania are up to date.
LOL You are the one who used "tool"...so right back at you
The culture wars are back. Gays Guns and God
Using phoney baloney religion to attack women's health care while at same time as attacking Obamas Affordable Heath Care Act.
Women,
You need to call your Representative and Senators and let them know to continue providing free contraception regardless of religious affiliation to all woman. Men have proved themselves irresponsible when it comes to family planning. Including wealthy men. We must stand up for our rights and keep powerful men in public service from taking them away from us. Call or email them and call or email the white house and let them know to keep their hands off our contraceptives.This is not a religious issue. This is men trying to flex muscle over women once again. Men in the Catholic Church, men in the Republican party and yes even some men in the Democratic party. CALL CALL CALL!
Can't believe this is going on in 2012!
I love it when the tea people GOP republicans get all scatter brained like they have the last couple of weeks. Their especially bad today, all over the place with not an original thought amongst them. I see by the votes they don't have any support for their post today.
BTW: Own this contraception debate Democrats, it's a winner in the long run.
Romney is portraying himself now as, "the son of a carpenter". Gee where have I heard about the son of a carpenter before? Sounds somehow familiar. Maybe I should ask one of the conservatives if they recognize this story?
Some of the current Democratic leaders are just pussies. Yes, I said it. Look at the cost of a woman getting pregnant, having a child and fees that are associated with it (i.e. the cure). Why is it such a bad idea to have woman get the (prevention) contraception they need at a zero cost? This mandate is not telling anyone to hand out the pills as soon as a woman sign up for their health insurance. It is there for a woman to utilized if she wishes to participate. How the ass hats in the GOP can spin this to be against religion is beyond me. If Religion based health providers would like to discriminate, then they should opt out of receiving public funds. Then they can do anything they wish in their private tax exempted corporation. This is not against religion, but the GOP is sure against common sense. Teach your religious daughters not to get the pill, because it's against your made up tenants, but do not deprive a woman that could save the insurance companies the GOP love so much a huge sum of money, by not putting unwanted or unplanned children on their insurance. This is and should be a non-issue. I love how the GOP is for smaller government as long as it does as they wish, but more government control for people who do not think or view the world like them.
BTW: Own this contraception debate Democrats, it's a winner in the long run.
My thoughts exactly. If the GOP wants to re-fight the battles of the 60s let them. It will only make them look out of touch, bigoted and desperate.
Alan, there is a difference between stating the obvious about a politician and going against FR rules of personal attacks on a blog. Ramney is a tool, and if you can't see that, then there's no helping you. I don't do the whole 'bickering' thing. It represents a small minded tit-for-tat ego that someone wishes to feel better over. I don't do tit-for-tat. Get over it fella.
Apparently, anyone from Fairfax believes they own the right to define marriage to their view, and hey, screw anyone else. They hate being smacked by a court that tells them otherwise. In a Fairfaxian world, whites own blacks, women shouldn't vote, children should shut up and provide cheap labor in factories, and courts always rule in their favor.
What an un-complex life it is in Fairfaxtopia. Thankfully we still have courts in this era that tell us Fairfax is Fairfaux, and are willing to smack, hit, slap, knock down bigots. Bigots aka Fairfaxers are the ones harming society.
Will the REAL Barack Hussein Obama stand up??? Is he a moderate??? Is he a liberal??? Stuck between a Barack and a Hard Place!!!!! Will he back down or will he satisfy his LWNJ base??? How will you LWNJ's support that?
The only "tools" on here are the ones that try to make up cutesy names for others. Those posters are trite and insignificant.
These people screaming about a made-up "attack on religion" sound like they belong to the Church of Our Lady of Perpetual Whining. When one guest pointed out yesterday that many states already require Catholic schools and hospitals to provide insurance for contraceptives, the other anti-Obama whiner said the difference was that the states require the employee to make a copay while the federal law does not.
Huh? A copay means that the insured is paying only part of the cost while the insurance company is paying the rest. So it's OK for states to require the health insurance plans of church-run institutions to pay PART of the cost of contraception but it's an "attack on religion" to require the insurance company to pay ALL of it. Pardon the metaphor, but given the absolutist morality of the Catholic hierarchy that supposedly justifies their complaints, isn't the distinction between paying all of or part of the cost of contraceptives kind of like the difference between being pregnant and a little bit pregnant?
(to-state :initarg :TO-STATE :accessor to-state)
For Romney to prove he's just Joe Average Citizen (except for the overseas bank accounts and the low tax rates), he needs to go around the country in a beat-up pickup truck wearing a flannel shirt and jeans with patches on them. Yeah, that's the ticket!
(Sigh) I'm getting a little tired (well, really, a whole LOT tired) of the "holier-than-thou" crowd trying to deny equal rights to large segments of our society on religious grounds.
Folks, all the President's action with regards to contraception does is provide equal rights under the law for EMPLOYEES of religious based universities, hospitals and other NON-CHURCH institutions. Many, many, many Catholic schools, universities, hospitals and such have a MAJORITY of non-Catholic employees. Why should those employees be denied equal rights under the law?
It doesn't force a single Catholic to use birth control. The church itself is exempt so the church can continue to discriminate against is non-member emmployees (if any) as much as it likes (and it does). But in the more public sector atmosphere of church-based universities, hospitals, etc. It must provide equal rights under the new law for its' employees. Period.
Let's call this what it really is. This is religious bigotry alright, but it's the religion that is discriminating against their non-believer employees. Hells Bells folks polls show that 53% of CATHOLICS favor access to birth control and USE IT THEMSELVES! The Pope is just going to have to get over it.
This is the same bunch that want's to deny equal rights under the law for the Gay/Lesbian community. They don't like the Gay/Lesbian lifestyle because of religious dogma so they want to PUNISH these sinners by denying them their equal rights under the law.
So folks, stop wailing about your religious freedoms being attacked. No one has attacked your religious freedoms, unless you consider your denial of equal rights to those with whom you disagree a GOD-GIVEN RIGHT!
Damn, this makes me mad. My blood pressure is off the chart. I gotta go take a chill pill and calm down before I "stroke out".
It's 2012 America! It's time to grow up and get real.
Damn I'm tired of people screaming their beliefs are being attacked when, in fact, they ARE THE OFFENDERS!
Obama/Biden 2012
He is someone willing to work with all sides to move this country forward.
This President, President Obama has achieved Wall Street reform and Health Care Reform. The latter eluded US Presidents for a century.
GOP congressionals watered down those achievements as much as they could & tried to fail them.
GOP Leaders bragged to the Press frequently, and openly pledged to block the President and our economic recovery for the last 36 months.
Despite this, we have created 3.7Million private sector jobs over the last 23 months. And more manufaturing jobs since he 1990's.
My prediction -- There will be a brokered Republican convention where someone else will emerge as the nominee. Someone that is not currently running. That candidate will be free of the scars from the battle going on now.
The other side of that coin in this prediction is that the LWNJ paid trolls on here will systematically begin to attack the "potential" nominees when it become apparent there will be no delegate majority going into the convention. They will selectively attack and then get into a circle jerk patting each other on the back for such good insight LOL!!!!! What a bunch of predictable "tools."
I was going to suggest asking a Gnostic, but then I remembered those followers of Christ were removed from this world via genocide by the Catholics. Perhaps a Mormon can help to refresh your memory, that is if they haven't been exterminated as well.
Better yet, ask a Fairfaxian, Albanian, Spankian, or WCAnian. They own backwards world views that may still remember the story.
Any organization/company ought to be able to offer what it wants included in benefits offered to employees. No government should dictate that. Contraceptives are "free" to all who want them through the local county agencies where they live. This is an issue of constitutionality and the violation of our laws of government interference.
@Skippy -- Isn't it time you man up and act like one????
Its obvious this issue is much more important than the liberals want anyone to know. They do not want traction on this and DO want it to go away. But its going to be another memo thumb tacked on the board for election time. Unless Mr. Obama backtracks, then the backtracking will become the issue. This is getting more and more fun every day. I cant wait until the nominee is selected and the real fireworks start going off. With all the states the Liberals "hate" and all the non issues that they state are brought up by the right this is going to be one fun few months. Paxil for everyone!
In my schoolin' days, I was taught G-force was all about gravity oppression. Then I growed up - and 'dem whright whringers teached me G-force is all about societal oppression. Whoda thunk. Religion whrules, science sucks. That is the Phairphaxian way.
The President is working with the religious community in a responsive and sensitive way.
98% of Catholic women use birth control. A majority have said they think employers should provide their workers health care plans that cover contraception. 28 states already do.
THE IGNORANT OLD BOYS' CLUB SHOULD STAY OUT OF WOMEN'S HEALTH.
Did someone mention 'G-Spot'?
Oh, never mind, I put on my glasses...
Ben-636050
You mean like safe work environments? If the Catholics develop a sudden moral objection against providing proper ventilation and fire exits in work places that they run, the government shouldn't intervene with those burdensome OSHA regulations?
Sounds like someone on here hasn't had their "G-spot" hit. Too much pent up frustration being taken out of juvenile thoughts and trying to type in a ridiculous manner. LOL..
Only a blithering idiot would take the leap from health care benefits -- which I was addressing -- to do an analogy with safe working environments. Are you so desperate about how wrong the HHS action is you can't defend one issue at a time. Talk about tools. LOL
Obama is a tool!
My that really added to the discourse on the site. Or do you still not get my point?
Actually what I was complaining about is they good or bad news for average people is used as if it's a football game and all that matters is our side wins. I didn't support the war in Iraq but I was all for winning because the alternative meant kids from our country suffered. If that helped George Bush politically too bad. The same with the employment figures. If good numbers help Obama that's life. But just because I don't agree with his policies means I want the people out of work. Here's to a solid recovery that puts American's back to work and to hell with which politician benefits.
Do you ever investigate a statement? I presume you mean 98% of Catholic women of Child Bearing age? Or do you?
I love when David Walker starts citing Alinsky as he has actually read it because if he had, he would realize its a book for progressives and its the game plan that the democratic party (primarily its backers) have used all the way back to the Clinton days with astonishing success. Its more about attacking the messenger (notice any similarities to Fiesty and David on this board?) to diminish the message. Like when the Clinton supporters attacked the women coming out of the closet stating they either had affairs or were harassed sexually by Clinton. They then personally destroyed these women personally to make the underlying issues go away that in hindsignt were factual. Its the same tried and true tactic of the Obama administration it just hasnt worked nearly as well. But good try David.
Anyone else notice the 'little bee's' are angrier then usual this morning? lol
nisl - that is true of most men, but then there is that small (size puns aside) sect of men (notice they are typically republican) who like that reminder of that rare experience they had 9 months ago.
the little bees gspot needs rubbing
Because Buck's junk isn't big enough to accomplish the task.
RedDevPS - Yes, true. But I said, "...we don't ALWAYS want a reminder of."
I'm going to go out on a limb and say a vast majority of American men don't limit their bedroom exploits to attempts at baby making. Or, in other words, in many cases, we "do it" because it feels good, not because we want another child.
RedDev
your post at 1.50 was genius. Fairfax is Fairfaux is the best line ever!
^^^^^^^^
I am going to go off on my rant about WOMEN's Health Issues now. I am sick to death of the Catholic Church (et al) getting TAX EXEMPT status when they are clearly lobbying legislatively for favors for Religion. The Public Enterprise of Hospitals that accept Medicare payments and Universities that receive Pell Grants are NOT entitled to special treatment under the FEDERAL LAWS of this nation. PERIOD.
I repeat what I said the other day. If a state such as ultra red Mississippi refuses to accept fetus personhood,...then I think it is safe to assume that the MAJORITY of voters (who happen to be women) will slap this particular Vagina Tax smack in the mouth as it deserves to be treated.
Boehner et al,...When you don't have a candidate or any ideas how to govern,...why do you ALWAYS go to your 'fall back' position of penalizing WOMEN, THE POOR, MINORITIES and CHILDREN? Every single time a culture war issue is discussed instead of issues of NATIONAL Concern and Importance,...you GNOPers LOSE.
You won in 2010 because you Stated an Agenda that the public cared about -
J-O-B-S
Since then, you've done absolutely NOTHING about jobs. You've doubled down on Rightwing Culture Issues.
Here's a quarter, buy a freakin' clue. Smaller Government means GET THE HELL OUT OF MY BEDROOM, MY WOMB and the bedrooms and wombs of my neighbors. Focus on Defense, General Welfare (not general Religious ZEAL).
I sincerely hope you wingers go ALL IN on this tactic; because it is NOT a winner for you.
I love how Fiesty and others want to make this a female reproduction issue rather than a constitutional issue. But I dont even understand why we as taxpayers or employers are forced to pay for free contraceptives. As someone has said its a cost issue, but if that was true, trust me employers would give it away rather than paying for it now through the cost of providing their employers medical insurance. Not sure why people shouldnt pay for their own contraceptives. The idea that the government can force a religious institution to pay for contraceptives which is against their religious tenets is an amazingly arrogant view. Can you imagine if the GOP were in charge and created a rule that said employers must provide free handguns to its employees? Or said that all employers must provide free meat as a food source and said even employers like PETA, Vegans must do it too? Its an easy choice for catholic employees, if they dont like the fact that they dont get free contraceptives GO TO A DIFFERENT HOSPITAL OR DONT WORK THERE. How incredibily elitest condescending and paternal are progressives?
As for Jody saying Catholics should stay of a woman's family planning as its a personal decision, I would say I want the government to stay out of family's pants pockets and taking my money to redistribute to everyone that wants something for free as its a personal decision of whether I want to pay for someone else's free stuff or charity. Its so easy for progressives to say leave a woman's body alone but have no problem intruding into our pocketbooks and every other aspect of our lives.
Damn, I thought the jobs picture was improving at a pace with the approval the the LWNJs. Only a blind jackass would say that the improving jobs picture happened "in spite" of the GOP. Or else you would be a partisan, paid hack troll hypocrite.
Fools and Tools are the only people who advocate letting ANYBODY offer ANYTHING they want to their employees, etc.
That philosophy was dealt a death blow by Teddy Roosevelt over a hundred years ago. What he began others finished and that's why we have a 40 hour work week, child labor laws, minimum wage and all the other worker benefits we enjoy in this country.
Only a fool or a tool would advocate anything less. Under the "F&T" philosophy an employer could force their workers into indentured servitude or even a form of slavery.
As a veteran, state-certified, civil rights investigator I am uniquely qualified to make the observations I have made regarding equal rights under the law for ALL Americans regardless of race, color, national origin, age or religious affiliation. I work to uphold the Civil Rights Act of 1964 which is FEDERAL LAW in this country and has been for nearly 50 YEARS.
Fools and tools don't see the need or the benefit of such a laws despite the fact they, themselves have almost certainly benefited from them.
God help us if the fools and tools ever gain control of this country.
Obama/Biden 2012
There is absolutely nothing free being offered and it is yet another prime example of how republicans continually lie and spin. The cost is part of the cost of insurance, which is PAID for, meaning IT ISN'T FREE.
Hey skip
As a Civil Rights Investigator perhaps you can comment on this piece by Michael Meyers the executive director of the New York Civil Rights Coalition.
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/race-card-a-joker-article-1.1018726
I love this quote:
Exactly right! The Administration has edict-ed that I pay for contraceptives whether I want or need them through MY premiums. But candidate Obama specifically stated that "If you like the insurance you have now nothing is going to change". Every time a mandate is declared for so-called "free" procedures or drugs it changes the cost of my policy. How about Lipitor or Oxycontin being declared "free" for all? Do you agree to that? Why are someones contraceptive needs being added to my my premium?
Ben
Give us the HR bill number of the republican legislation that has caused the improvement in jobs.
Go ahead. Put your money where your mouth is. You CAN'T do it because NONE exists. So, tough cookies,...you get NO credit for the jobs report because you had nothing to do with it.
I will point to H.R. 1 and H.R. 3962 as a couple of Obama job starters,...I know it stings a little; but pouting really isn't the solution.
So Skip, you are now comparing providing free contraception to child labor laws? Wow, I wonder who would be considered the tool by most americans. Yes you are correct forcing an employee to pay for their own condoms is a form of indentured servitude and a form of slavery. I cant believe this country really has lowered itself. Next thing you know, employees might have to pay for their own Botox and Viagra--can you really believe it? The nerve of those bad nasty employers but good thing we have the government and the progressive police to make sure that we dont have those big bad employers especially the religious ones dictating terms of the employment. All I can say is wow, you and David Walker must be some form of B buddies together to come up with that load of crap.
Reddev--see that shows you have no concept how insurance works and medical benefits. It is basically free because employees only pay for at most 20% of the cost of their medical premiums or medical costs through premiums, deductibles and out of pockets. For Union employees its less than 5%. Who dingbat do you think pays for the rest? So if it is a Catholic hospital, church etc, its the employer who picks up the other 80%. Or in other situations its the taxpayers, or the pooled insurance fund which means its picked up by the employers in the fund. So yes its basically free in that the employees pick up 20 percent or less of the cost of the contraceptives.
For the same reason that I have to pay for your Viagra because of your inability to rise to the occasion.
Kirk - the day you are able to conceptualize a concept is the day we can have an actual discussion. If I am self employed, I pay 100% of my medical insurance, and if part of that medical coverage is contraception, I am in effect paying for it - meaning it isn't free.
I don't need schooling from the Kirkeology Institute. From the content of your posts, it is about as credible as any online degree that can be purchased in exchange for a few thousand dollars.
Reddev--we arent talking about self employed and even if you were you are still in a pool of other self employed and definitely not paying the full 100% of your medical costs. We are talking about catholic employers and 85% of the workers in this country receive medical benefits from an employer. So you can try to attack personally but sometimes its just better to admit when you are wrong and dont know what you are talking about.
If you dont like the content of my posts because you disagree politically or have a different opinion, thats your view, but where I am wrong, prove it. You do need schooling on this topic because you didnt understand it. Sorry didnt mean to offend you but obviously you cant conceptualize without what David Walker likes to refer as the Alinsky method of personally attacking the messenger because they hate the message.
BTW: Own this contraception debate Democrats, it's a winner in the long run.
My thoughts exactly. If the GOP wants to re-fight the battles of the 60s let them. It will only make them look out of touch, bigoted and desperate.
So when Obama pushes Sebelius with her tail between her legs up to the podium tomorrow afternoon to announce their reversal will you all criticize him for it?
Hell no you won't. Obama kicks you fools in the teeth on daily basis by following and extending bush policies and you cheer him.
Don't you libbie fools stand for anything?
Boehner is concerned about religious liberty. What about general liberty?
The Republicans are not talking about the central issues, jobs, the deficit, tax and election reform. Instead they are talking about, and involving the rest of us in, abortion, contraception, planned parenthood.
What a country!
It is a WOMENS HEALTH ISSUE and the issue is very simple either comply with the law or stop accepting guvment payments period.....nobody is forcing catholic hospitals to handout condoms. If you can't handle that then get out of the 65% govment funded healthcare business. You can't pick and choose what you like and don't like and try to hide under the cover of religon. Next they'll find something wrong with mammograms and duck and cover under religon and states rights. Healthcare affects everyone and is NOT a states issue.
They are simply saying as an non-discriminatory employer you need to have this option for your employees like every other employer in the country. There was no religous litmus test when they hired the employee. The employees did not sign a piece of paper stating they are catholic and will abide by the rules of catholic teachings as an employee.
By the way I love how we are all the sudden worked up in a frenzy when this has been going on in 28 different states. Oh I forgot its a states issue.....so you're saying people don't have sex in other parts of the country???? I would love for someone on the right to go through every issue for me and explain the logic of what belongs to the states and what belongs to the fed so I can have a good laugh.
Rob, no they have no underlying principles they will stand on regardless of the politician in office. That is the difference between conservatives and progressives. For the progressives the ends justify the means regardless of the principles they hold dear. We saw that with the organization NOW's blind support of Clinton regardless of their fundamental basic principles. We see that on this board with the gang's blind support of Obama regardless of his flip flops, changes in political positions etc. With the GOP presidential race, its clear that the race is being put through the ringer because of various constituents loyalty to their principles regardless of whether it will cost them the election. I may not agree with many of these social issue principles but I respect them for their integrity something lacking by all the posters supporting Obama.
Lol...
1 question for Mr. Mitt Romney....
List what have you done for this country in the last 4 years to improve things that President Obama is not doing right for the poor, the middle class and the unemployed ?
Sorry Kirk .. you still haven't built a case that anything covered by insurance is free. Now excuse me, I have a fence post who will provide me with a more meaningful discussion on the price of tea in China.
Ed, when did birth control become a health issue rather than a lifestyle drug or device? When did wearing a condom or having to buy it yourself create female health issues? Total different issues and you know it. Sorry but birth control pills are listed under lifestyle medication. If its prescribed for the health of the woman different issue and you clearly get the distinction so not sure why you are advocating differently. So you are ok with a new administration requiring all employers to offer free pork as part of their medical plan because its better for you than red meat (its a health issue) so now all Islamic and orthodox jewish employers must buy pork for their employees even though its totally against their religious tenets but hey they accept federal funds so they must comply.
Bill in Fairfax: What was their motivation? It doesn't matter. The idea that a majority can simply vote away the rights of a minority group – any minority, be it religious, ethnic, or otherwise – stands against the very premise of the U.S. Constitution, that all of us are equal before the law and that our rights are protected.
To simply vote away the rights of a group you don’t approve of is about as un-American as you can possibly get. Obviously, the majority will always be able to deprive the minority of rights, taking away rights previously possessed, refusing to grant rights never held.
Build a case? Its a fact. There is nothing to build a case for. Covering birth control is just like covering your kids doctor visit. You pay premiums, out of pockets and deductibles that cover 20% or less of the actual medical expenses. Employers, taxpayers and pooled fund participants whether employers or individuals cover the other 80%. What case needs to be built? If you add birth control, its the same. Sorry buddy but thats the way it is but I dont even understand why you argue this because its not a fundamental aspect of this debate so admitting you were wrong on this doesnt change you can still be for Obama's policy that he plans to pull soon by the way.
I'm curious how Romney's recast role as "the son of a carpenter", savior of a 14 yr old...water into wine, will play with the anti-Mormon Evangelicals? Should be fun.
Good Grief Kirk - here you go again.
Ever heard of AIDS? Last time I checked, that is a disease that can be prevented through the use of condoms. Oh, and it also serves as a contraception device. I call that ingenious, the Church calls them devilish.
Son of a carpenter? LOL! Romney - your own personal Jesus... this kind of total BS can only fly in America... How sad... :(
Really. Please point me to the federal mandate that specifies Viagra, or all Erectile Dysfunction drugs, MUST be covered with no co-pay in an insurance policy.
Will you admit that it is NOT the same reason. If you contact an insurance company I am sure you can find a policy that will not cover these drugs and subsequently reduce your premium. That is the freedom of choice that you have. Conversely, with this mandate, my freedom of choice has been removed.
I think the Catholics are upset because birth control will limit the number of new victims the Priests can get their hands on.
Did I just say that? Oops.
It is precisely for this reason, federal mandates need to be issued to insurance carriers. You see, today, insurance agencies are allowed to charge you premiums and deny any/all coverage. If that is what it takes to make you feel 'free', have at it, I will pass. I opt for forcing insurance companies to provide coverage.
This is a nice article on Viagra vs. birth control.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=91538#.TzQI3cVSSdY
Erections Get Insurance; Why Not the Pill?
Kirk,
So I am assuming you are in favor of completely removing the government from religious institutions... like this Catholic contraception thing.
No government involvement whatsoever, right? Religious institutions should have the right to do whatever their religion dictates without government intervention... like Catholics against birth control.
That is your platform, correct?
Because men don't have babies. If they did, you better believe abortion would be legal, the pill would be mandated and the day after pill would be available like vitamins.
If it's not in the contract you enter into why should they cover the cost?
WHICH Willard "Mitt" Romney are they going to "retool"? (#1 or #2)
Romney meets Anti-Romney in Parallel Universes...........
'The TARP program... was nevertheless necessary to keep banks from collapsing in a cascade of failures.' [1]
'When government is... bailing out banks... we have every good reason to be alarmed.' [2]
'I like health care mandates. The mandates work.' [1]
'I think health care mandates are unconstitutional on the 10th Amendment front.' [2]
'I respect and will protect a woman's right to choose.' [1]
'I never really called myself pro-choice.' [2]
'I believe the tax on capital gains should be zero.' [1]
'Capital gains taxes are a tax cut for fat cats.' [2]
'Roe v. Wade has gone too far.' [1]
'I believe that since Roe v. Wade has been the law for 20 years we should sustain and support it.' [2]
'I'm not trying to return to Reagan-Bush.' [1]
'Ronald Reagan is... my hero.' [2]
'When I first heard of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy, I thought it sounded awfully silly.' [1]
''Don't Ask, Don't Tell has worked well.' [2]
'If Massachusetts succeeds in implementing health care, then that will be a model for the nation.' [1]
'What works in one state may not be the answer for another.' [2]
'In Massachusetts...the costs of health care will be reduced.' [1]
'We were unable to deal with... health care costs in Massachusetts.' [2]
'I've been a hunter pretty much all my life.' [1]
'Any description of my being a hunter is an overstatement of capability.' [2]
'I'm going to take burdens off the back of the auto industry.' [1]
'Detroit needs a turnaround, not a check.' [2]
'I would like to have campaign spending limits.' [1]
'The American people should be free to advocate for their candidates and their positions without limitations.' [2]
'I supported the assault weapon ban.' [1]
'I don't support any gun control legislation.' [2]
'Based on the numbers of American Muslims... I cannot see that a cabinet position would be justified.' [1]
'A person should not be elected because of his faith nor should he be rejected because of his faith.' [2]
'I'm not in favor of privatizing Social Security or making cuts.' [1]
'Social Security's the easiest to privatize and that's because you can give people a personal account.' [2]
'I don't line up with the NRA.' [1]
'I'm a member of the [NRA].' [2]
'The all-Democrat stimulus that was passed in early 2009 will accelerate the timing of the start of the recovery...' [1]
'The all-Democrat stimulus passed in early 2009 has been a failure.' [2]
'I saw my father march with Martin Luther King.' [1]
'I did not see it with my own eyes.' [2]
'It does take a village to raise a child.' [1]
'It takes a family to raise a child.' [2]
'I'm a strong believer in stating your position and not wavering.' [1]
'I changed my position.' [2]
reddev it's useless they don't understand that making a baby is a womens health issue although they would have no problem if the fed mandated abstinence education as part of healthcare reform...we all know how well that worked out.
i think you just ignore them and move forward because they argue every stupid detail to try and prove a point. it's what holds the country back from making progress on any issue. most people understand the need to make contraception available even catholics. they are in the minority and the polls reflect that.
Romney IS a tool.
Mike,
That's too funny!
So he's a son of carpenter now? That likes to fire people, doesn't care about the very poor and possibly tortures his dog? What will he be tomorrow?
Romney has been retooling his message since he first had a message to retool. Does anyone truly know what this guy stands for... other than being against anything Obama?
Where is he today on health care?
What's his latest stance on support for the poor? the rich? the people?
And what does "support" mean to him?
Could it be that he spends his megabuck PAC money on negative ads because he has no consistent message of his own?
And do you really think that just because he was a venture capitalist that he knows how the overall economy works, or what government's role in it is, or what foreign policy even means?
You see, I don't care for Santorum or Paul, but at least I now where they stand. I would take them over the flipping weasel any day.
But in a general election, with the way things are going on pretty near all fronts, we'll have Obama/Biden in November. If we don't, we gotta be brain-dead.
Red at 1.77. Something absolutely IS being offered for free. Carney said it yesterday that women had to receive contraceptive coverage at no cost to them and without a copay. BUT, it isn't FREE to the employer's group plan who has to pay for it.
@ Feisty: Not that I don't agree with the majority of what you say, but you could at least be recognizing that contraception and birth control is an issue for both genders...not just women. Certainly, women have a vested interest in this, but there are actually responsible males out there too a number that is small absolutely, but it has grown over the years and continues to grow as education and prevention methods reach the younger generations.
How can you say in one sentence it is free, and then in the next sentence say it is payed for in a group insurance plan? Is it free or isn't it? What the White House has said is that women do not have to make a co-payment. That does NOT make it free.
Are you really ridiculous enough to argue that if I make a claim against my homeowners insurance for damages, and if they cover the full cost of repairs, that I am getting "free" repairs?
When will they ask Romney the real questions?
Like:
1."Mr. Romney, explain to everybody how placing your money into shelters overseas so you can get away with paying less then 14 percent in annual taxes is helping Americans?"
2."Mr. Romney, do you send the bulk of your money overseas because you value the trade of other countries over America's, or did you send your money over there so you didn't have to pay as much in taxes as everybody else does?"
3."Mr. Romney, you like to say that you pay what you owe in taxes and not a dollar more. What if the vast majority of America thinks you should pay a lot more? Do you agree with the majority of American people and pay more taxes or tell them you don't care and don't want their votes anyways?"
4. "Mr. Romney, do you think all Americans should pay less then 14 percent of their annual incomes to taxes, like you do, even though that would plunge this great nation into third-world status almost immediately?
5. "Mr. Romney only the rich could take advantage of loopholes you have used to insure you pay less in taxes then almost all Americans who pay taxes. Should that be how America's tax code works? Should rich people, like yourself, pay smaller percent of your income to taxes when people like our military, cops, social workers, firefighters have to pay a great deal more?
ROMNEY RETOOLS.......my apologies to Aretha Franklin
Romney says he’s “carpenter's” son
Yet when his daddy was governor he'd tag along
When they gathered around and started talkin'
That's when Mitt would take me walkin'
Out through the back yard he'd go skulkin'
Then he'd look into my eyes
and tell me all his lies.
The only one who could ever reach me
Mitt, the son of a “carpenter” man
The only Repub who could ever teach me
Was the son of a “carpenter” man
Yes he was, he was, ooh, yes he was
Bein' sleazy isn't always easy
No matter how hard he’ll try
When Mitt started flip-floppin’ on me
He'd come'n tell me "I left the right"
If he lost then he would tell me "Everything is all right"
Another primary lost tonight?
The only pol who could ever reach me
Mitt, the son of a “carpenter” man
The only Repub who could ever teach me
Was the son of a “carpenter” man
Yes he was, he was, ooh, yes he was (yes he was)
How well I remember
The look that was in his eyes
Avoidin’ taxes on the sly
Takin' time to make slime
Tellin' me that he's all mine
All the while we are knowin'
Mitt goes the way the wind is blowin’
The only one who could ever reach me
Mitt the son of a “carpenter” man
The only Repub who could ever teach me
Was the son of a “carpenter” man
Yes he was, he was, oh yes he was
(The only one who could ever reach me)
He was the sweet-talkin' son of a carpenter man
(The only Repub who could ever teach me)
Was the son of a carpenter man
No I dont have a platform and in fact I am pretty anti catholic and think the church and its priests should have been indicted under federal RICO statutues for the pedophile coverup. However, I dont think the government should be telling Islamic people they must eat pork over lamb because its better for you (as stupid as that is) anymore than they should be mandating Catholic employers must provide free contraception. Reddev doesnt know what he is talking about as others have pointed out. Its not a health issue its a freedom of choice and constitutional issue. The fact that a condom prevents AIDs is no different than saying the government prevents all kids from drinking Coke because if you choose to drink one it can lead to diabetes. Its a choice issue one that is near and dear to the hearts of you progressives so you should understand it. First I dont think anyone should be mandated to cover lifestyle benefits unless the employer thinks from a recruitment of employees or cost benefit issue it makes sense to them. Contraceptives is not the same as coverage of real medical conditions. Second, I dont think the government can tell religious employers they must do something in contravention of their religious policies unless it involves a constitutionally protected right like no discrimination. Clearly access to free contraceptives is not constitutionally protected.
Asimplicity-- he might answer like this
1) Since I donate almost 20% of my gross income to charity a figure that is 3 times what President Obama does and almost 15 times more than Obama has averaged in charitable contributions since 2004, I think I can prove with my actions that I have done more for those in need than Obama ever has. Second, I didnt create the tax code and I have noticed that guys like Buffet who also take advantage of the tax code to minimize their taxes, dont volunteer to pay more than they hvae to a government that clearly spends it far less efficiently than I ever could.
2) Just as Obama has indicated that we are a global society, I actually value and understand that all business and commercial trade is global and not centered in the US. For example, over 50% of the sales of all our major technology companies, automobiles, consumer products like Coke are international so are you saying we should give up those sales and become noncompetitive by focusing solely on the US?
3) If we revamp the tax code to make it fair, more simple, progressive and the elimination of all social engineering and that means I pay more tax, thats the way our democratic form of government works and of course I would pay more tax. I assume all americans especially those 50% who currently do not contribute to the federal budget also agree with me.
4) Well since 50% of americans pay no federal income tax and if you include payroll taxes which they will receive back in the form of social security benefits, the working poor and middle class pay around 7%. Because most of my income is in the form of investments in which the companies already pay 35% in tax (just like Buffet's companies pay that same tax before he gets his income and then taxed again at 15%), its more fair to say what rate should all income including corporate income be taxed ONCE. If thats a higher rate for me but we eliminate the corporate tax in order to be more competitively globally, that would be great.
5) Well you certainly have your facts wrong, because teachers dont pay any federal income tax only payroll tax and the effective rate of those professions is far lower than mine. Further, all taxpayers take advantage of the same loopholes and shelters that I do, I assume these professions own homes with the mortgage deduction or the child dependent and credits or deductions for property taxes and charitable deductions. All of these are forms of loopholes that should be eliminated to make the tax code fair, simpler and progressive for everyone.
Kirk, I don't think people are arguing whether or not there is a line... their arguing where the line is drawn. Services provided by the church are exempt from these regulations. Services SPONSORED by the church are not exempt since they provide services beyond church membership. It would be a slippery slope. What about co-sponsored entities (of which most are)? They must adhere to a consistent set of rules to assure equal opportunity for services under the health care law. As an opposing scenario, what services might be had from an Islam sponsored clinic? The answer? The same services.
Kirk,
This is exactly why I gave up debating with you. You tend to ALWAYS go to the extreme of an argument as the basis for your thinking (Islamic people being forced to eat pork? really?). You never start with the point being made; but rather the trite soundbite that has been apparently whispered in your ear from Rush Limbaugh podcasts on your iPod.
Accept that the Catholic Church operates Churches and Charities and that they operate PUBLIC ENTERPRISES such as Hospitals and Universities.
Accept that in a recent supreme court decision regarding hiring/discrimination practices of their PRIVATE school enterprise, they WON. They are allowed to discriminate in those ventures.
Accept that the two things are not EQUAL. A Public Enterprise by its very nature is PUBLIC, available to ALL. And falls under the jurisdiction of FEDERAL laws and regulations
Accept that MOST of them ALREADY cover the benefit at issue.
Accept that in 13 states this specific mandate is the LAW of those states.
Accept that in 28 states similar mandates are the LAW of those states.
Accept that you are being DUPED into a PAWN for the Rightwing Mouthpiece Poutrage.
Or not,...it's really a Choice you have to make at this point because now that you have the FACTS - you are willfully making a choice about which facts to believe.
As you were, foot soldier in the Limbaugh Army.
Again, the difference between you home owners insurance and medical is that your employer is paying for it so it is free. What part of medical insurance do you not get? Do you think you medical premiums as an employee cover all your medical costs? Not even close. Its free to the employees because the government is mandating that the employer pays for it through the medical policy it has with the insurance carrier. This isnt tough math man. Is this concept pretty difficult for you to comprehend? I dont understand why you are being so difficult on this. Why do you think the church is so up in arms? They dont want to have to pay for this benefit that is against their religious principles.
Willard Mitt Romney, son of a carpenter...?
Not unless Willard's revealing that his mother had an affair which resulted in his birth... and his biological father is not George W. Romney, CEO of American Motors, Governor of Michigan, and HUD Secretary.
Mittens, dear, you aren't a good enough actor to pull it off. Reagan's performances were lame and he was a professional. Don't insult our intelligence, Mitt. The only one you're fooling is yourself.
Love your lyrics, Mke Mike!
Not really Clara because I can turn it around. If those are public enterprises, then dont go to that hospital or dont work for it if it doesnt provide the benefit you want. My issue is not religious or extreme because I hate the catholic church, I also think those state laws are wrong too. I dont think the government should be mandating any of these lifestyle choices as it should be the employer's choice to offer those benefits. This isnt a health issue. Its only extreme to you because its not what you believe. I have never listened to Rush Limbaugh in my life and probably would hate him. So dont start labeling me because I hate government bullying anyone based on what they feel is good for us. To me this is a constitutional and libertarian issue and has nothing to do with the GOP. I dont understand what facts you provided have anything to do with my admittedly opinionated argument.
Is Mitt Romney going to FAKE until November?
When is Mitt Romney going to talk about his faith-Mormon, instead of women contraception?
Well, Romney got the first three words of his new image correct.
That's ridiculous that I shouldn't work for an employer because of their religious dogma! Why are they allowed to use the term EEOC on their employement advertisements? Do you ever pause to read what you write?
It IS a health issue. Regulating female hormones through oral contraceptives is VERY Much a Health Issue. Oral Contraceptives have been used MEDICALLY for decades.
And no one is forcing a catholic to get the pill, take the pill or use ANY form of contraception.
You remind me of Dr. Ron Paul; because with your pollyanna view,...Civil Rights weren't necessary - the 'market' would have just figured it out eventually, right?
Dogma is as Dogma does,...
Kirk,
They have ALREADY allowed religious institutions to discriminate. Look up the recent court case involving a woman who was fired from her position because of a disability. The courts ruled that because her employer was a religious institution, and separation of church and state applies, the government has no role in enforcing anti-discrimination laws. Therefore, religious institutions are free to discriminate. Christians and Republicans cheered this as a "win" for the church. Fox News reported on it.
Extremist Muslims also like this idea. Apparently Republicans are too stupid to realize that pushing a "no government in religion at all" platform applies to ALL religions.
Romney has more money than the last 8 Presidents COMBINED. Naturally, someone with that much money will spend more in tax loopholes ... sorry, I meant "charity"... than people with far less money. Hell, by YOUR logic, Romney "donating" 1% of his wealth will mean that he has done "more" than both Ghandi and Mother Theresa. I would not agree with this statement, as those two dedicated their lives to helping others, while Romney merely uses it as a tax loophole. But apparently dollar amount is all YOU care about.
Wrong. At Bain Capital Romney does not use HIS income, he would buy out the company with borrowed money, use company assets as collateral to pull out a loan on said company, pay himself back with dividends at a 15% rate, lay off thousands of employees, bankrupt the company, and walk away with a cool $300 million... taxed at 15%, with the original investment being borrowed money. Romney's income through this practice was never taxed at 35%.
Wrong again. When the tax code was being debated, and the possibility of increasing capital gains was apparent, Romney sent an army of lobbyists to Washington to fight for the tax code he wanted. So he personally did not go create the tax code, he hired an army to do his dirty work. So Romney DID play a part in creating the tax code he currently uses to pay less than most people.
The top 30 companies in this country pay lobbyists MORE than they pay in taxes, to make sure they get the tax code they want.
Kirk, family planning reduces maternal and newborn mortality rates and improves the health and well being of women and their existing children.
There is a definite and proven correlation between access to contraception and women's health. Some methods of contraception--condoms-- can also provide protection against sexually transmitted diseases, some of which are deadly.
The fact that your employer is paying for your medical insurance does not make it "free". If medical insurance were less expensive, your employer could pass that savings on to you in the form of higher wages.
Clara, are you now saying that providing free contraceptives is an equal rights issue? Talk about extremes and embellishing. If you read my earlier post, I said I had no problem with the prescribing of birth control for the health of the mother, and in my view the woman should pay her co pay, deductible etc no different than a prescription her husband gets for Lipitor. Its the free providing of contraceptives as a lifestyle decision that is at issue here so stop the civil rights issues. In addition this isnt about forcing a catholic to take it, its about forcing the church as the employer to provide it and pay for it. Totally two different issues. Its the same as forcing an Islamic service provider to serve Pork to all of its employees for health reasons. What does this have to do with Ron Paul? This isnt a civil rights issue and you know it.
Kaybee--I agree with all of that but thats different than the government mandating that it be provided for free to the employees. The fact that certain lifestyle choices we all make impact our health is pretty common knowledge for everything we do. I am certain that choosing to eat McDonalds every meal, or smoking, or driving to work 30 miles each way, drinking Coke and on and on impacts our health. However, the government doesnt mandate coverage and make employers pay for a lifestyle decision if he it has the benefits you note. I never said lifestyle choices dont make a difference, I just dont think I or employers should have to pay for your personal lifestyle choices.
kirk - don't know what fairy land you live in but teachers DO pay Federal Income Taxes. YOU have your facts wrong in so many areas - I'm only pointing out the one about the teachers. When you resort to making things up you should make up "facts" that aren't so easily proved wrong - like the majority of all of your posts.
Indie party--really? did you read that case. She wasnt discriminated based on any protected class that is protected under our constitution. She tried to argue she had a disability and that she needed time off for her own religious holidays not sure if that is a protected disability I am aware of. The court didnt say they were free to discriminate and in fact quite the opposite. They are free to discriminate if its not a protected constitutional right like on the basis of color, race, sex etc. That case was decided 9-0 so cant blame that on the Supreme Court.
So the best you can do is say that Obama's charitable giving average of less than 1% until he was senator and president which it went up to 5% is not an issue but because Romney is a successful wealthy person of course he give 17% of his gross. Pretty weak argument. When did that become a bad thing? Wow you really have lost what this country was founded on havent you.
As for Bain, you are wrong again and dont understand how it works do you. First he doesnt make any taxable income on bankrupting companies and you act as if banks lend the money with the intention of losing it. Sorry dude but it doesnt work that way. They buy distressed companies with the hope of making them successful and yes the successful ones hire lots of people and pay taxes at 35% and he pays capital gains tax on the sale. If Bain bankrupted and lost investors and banks all that money for him to earn some fees, they would never get union pension money (the investors who make most of the money on these investments) and banks to ever lend him money again for the next investment. Dont use your think progress baloney to try and justify your idealogical hatred for successful people. By the way, how do you Soros makes all of his $30 billion?
As for lobbyists, can you show me where Romney personally sent lobbyists to lobby for lower cappital gains rates? Was this when Clinton lowered them dramatically in the late 90s causing the huge revenue gains for the Treasury and spurred the internet investment boom?
Seeking Sanity--teachers who make the average would pay very little if any. My mom and sister make about $35k and pay payroll taxes and no federal income taxes. The average family of 4 making less $55k or less pays no federal income taxes so I am sure you are correct there are teachers who make more and pay tax but for these purposes you have to take averages.
Just like the so called poor seniors who cant get buy without social security. If course that is true however seniors in the aggregate are the wealthiest sector in the US. You have to look at things with tax policy in the aggregate not one person at a time.
Kirk - you made a stupid, blanket statement and expect people to buy your garbage.
I'm sure seniors who are living check to check will love your looking at aggregate! What a ridiculous post!
Kirk, I don't think you can classify reproductive health issues, which are a basic part of our existence, as equivalent to choosing to eat junk food or not. Is eating and sleeping a 'lifestyle choice'?
Human sexuality is too much a part of normal life (unless you are a priest or a nun...but I won't go there) and too personal for it to be dictated by anyone outside the couple, as long as it is a lawful, consensual relationship.
I'd much rather see employers refuse to provide 'free' health care to people on the basis of true lifestyle choices, like smoking or taking recreational drugs. But as we all know, the Catholic Church won't refuse to provide health care to people who abuse drugs and alcohol. Why should they think they can tell their employees if and when to reproduce? Using birth control is a positive 'lifestyle choice'!
Seeking Sanity? Really? Explain how that is stupid? You really think our tax code should apply person by person? So the fact that seniors are the wealthiest group should have no bearing on providing entitlements because under your view the minority of them are poor and need it? Your myopic view of things without understanding all the ramifications is what is naive and currently bankrupting this country. When someone uses the statement that Romney pays less tax than teachers, police and fireman and that statement is wrong the vast majority of these professions its ok because you found one teacher who makes $150k. Give me a break. Your just mad you dont you are wrong.
Mitt the son-of-a-carpenter? Oh, perhaps that's what Newt was getting at when he said that Romney was just a Liberal son-of-a-beech.
Excellent comment, IndieParty . It should be displayed on the desk of every elected official in this country.
It's high time we went back to being a democracy.
Kaybee--you are actually making my argument for me. It may be part of our daily lives but so is eating and the health issues associated with diet are far more destructive to society than birth control. Yes, eating certain foods that you know are bad for you is a lifestyle choice. I actually agree with you on the other lifestyle decisions too. I have no problem or issue at all with your views and points its more than government is mandating that the catholic church pay for it. I also think that if the benefits were overall cost reduction then employers will provide it on their own but I dont think they should be mandated.
No Kirk - I just hate seeing posts like yours that are filled with lies. You think people are just going to lie down any play dead because you make things up. Get a clue. People are much smarter than you give them credit for - they're smarter than you!
Hiya Seeking Sanity!
Don't say I didn't warn ya! ;o)
I see Kirky snared you with his net... He likes to keep you tangled up arguing with him so don't have time to concentrate on bigger issues! lol
Kirk,
The case did involve a protected class under the Americans with Disabilities clause, as she was fired for a medical condition. Of course you will try to spin it so that it looks like you precious religious bigots are not at fault, but they are.
Not much for reading comprehension, huh? Did you fail 2nd grade? What I said was that comparing TOTAL CONTRIBUTIONS to charity will ALWAYS benefit the person with the most money. By your logic, Romney donated more... because he has more money... and thus that makes him better. So because the sum total of Romney's tax write-offs was a larger sum than someone who donates everything they have, Romney has done more.
Personally, I don't care how much Obama, or Romney, or anyone donates. I was just pointing out the flaw in your logic. A larger total sum of money does not make you a better person, especially if the sole reason you are doing it is for the tax write off. I look down on anyone bragging about their "charity" contributions when the reality is that they ONLY do it for tax reasons. Take away the tax-write off portion and let's see how much he donates.
No, he doesn't make money by specifically bankrupting the company, he makes money by paying himself the loan he took out on the company. Of course banks won't lend if they KNOW you are planning on bankrupting it... hell, we have laws against that. But you have to PROVE that is their intention. So they buy a distressed company with borrowed money, use the assets as collateral, take out a loan, pay themselves, lay off employees to cut costs, make the books look good, pay themselves more, then leave. Two years later their decisions cause the company to go bankrupt, but you have to PROVE that was their intention. And even if you brought a lawsuit, they can pay a small fine, admit no wrong-doing, and still walk away. So the bankruptcy does not make them money, but their actions to make money cause the bankruptcy.
You know what would have saved the company from going bankrupt? The $300 million they paid themselves. So keep telling yourself that they did not intend for it go go belly up. Besides, it's not like the workers who were laid off were people with families... oh wait.
Ummm... the people who directly worked with his lobbyists in Washington have admitted this. Jesus Christ, do you even pay attention to actual news. And lobbyists are not illegal, so he technically did not do anything wrong. But his lobbyists, along with all the lobbyists from every Vulture Capitalist company directly influenced the legislation. If you actually believe that rich people do not send lobbyists to pass the legislation they want, then I have a bag of horse s*** to sell you.
Feisty - don't worry - I'm soooo past Kirk. He just keeps posting garbage. How ya doing? Gonna be a L O N G election season!!!!
IndieParty - good post!
Dude makes me dizzy with all his spin! lol
If things keep going the way they are - it will certainly be entertaining!
Feisty - kinda like watching a comical horror movie! Amazing the GOP keeps coming up with these dudes! Where DO they find them????
Sanity - dudes was to kind .. these are zombies, and from the number of them, I'd say the graveyards are almost empty. One thing is for sure, they sure know how to stand in a circle and act like jerks.
Kirky is their pivot point! ;o)
They like their kink like their arguments, circular. Ok, I'll stop.
Please don't on my account! ;op
I haven't laughed this hard in ages!
Sorry Pat.....the Superbowl is in New Orleans next year. Hope your political positions are better researched.
No Bill - if it was about punishment, There were no penalties prescribed in the law - it is more like defending values from further erosion in their minds.
Calling punishment is like a teenager telling mom and dad they hate them when mom and dad said no, because they know the teenager is going to do something wrong with what they asked.
I think there are way too many people who like democracy - only when it is convenient for them.
If this is a democracy, the passed amendment should stand, elsewise we cease to be a government for the people, by the people. That is majority rule.
I keep hearing about
the 98% of Catholic women use birth control.
Did some Checking here's the actual source
http://www.guttmacher.org/about/
From The institute's mission statement
That's too weak. It's about as good as Ford, GM, or Chrysler claiming to have the longest lasting Trucks and cars on the road.
Just because it fit's your mantra doesn't mean it is good. I certainly could believe over 50% or 75%. This needs to be from an independent source, not done by a group, to further the groups cause.
Birth control is a private matter. If you want it, buy insurance from a company that pays for it or purchase it yourself. Don't force others who don't believe in it or don't want it to pay for it.
Soaking the Poor, State by State
—By Kevin Drum
| Fri Feb. 3, 2012 3:00 IS PST
You have heard, perhaps, that rich people in America are egregiously overtaxed. And the poor? They're the lucky duckies! Why, 47 percent of Americans pay no taxes at all!
(This is not true, of course. Many poor and elderly Americans pay no federal income tax, but they pay plenty of other taxes.)
Still and all, it's true that the federal income tax is indeed progressive. Conservatives are right about that—though it's not as progressive as it used to be, back before top marginal rates were lowered and capital gains taxes were slashed in half. But conservatives are a little less excited to talk about other kinds of taxes. Payroll taxes aren't progressive, for example. In fact, they're actively regressive, with the poor and middle classes paying higher rates than the rich.
And then there are state taxes. Those include state income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, and fees of various kinds. How progressive are state taxes?
Answer: They aren't. The Corporation for Enterprise Development recently released a scorecard for all 50 states, and it has boatloads of useful information. That includes overall tax rates, where data from the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy shows that in the median state (Mississippi, as it turns out) the poorest 20 percent pay twice the tax rate of the top 1 percent. In the worst states, the poorest 20 percent pay five to six times the rate of the richest 1 percent. Lucky duckies indeed. There's not one single state with a tax system that's progressive. Check the table below to see how your state scores.
http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/02/soaking-poor-state-state
________________________________________________________
You know the Yahoo’s are going to keep on telling this lie as long as they can get somebody to believe it.
Just wait. Won’t be long before some Yahoo gets on here with a lot of But…..but……but……….. or just some outright lies. That’s okay just as long as the majority of us don’t fall for the bushra.
Folks I got a little sign over my desk and it reads:
“A mistake is not a failure. It is something that goes wrong…….and then you fix it. You never fail until you stop trying. “
We made a mistake about 30 years ago. It started out simple and over the years has gotten more complex and ingrained in our system. It colors everything we do as a Nation.
The time to start fixing it is now. If not now when?
Great post, IR. We tried a different way of taxation/economics 30 years ago and it hasn't worked for most Americans. The Bush tax cuts took the failure to a new level by taxing interest and dividends at a lower rate than earned income. And states compound the damage with their systems. The rich are certainly better off but the rising tide didn't lift all boats as we were told it would. Time to move on before any more damage is done.
Tax reforms are desperately needed.
IMHO the tax systems in place are the single biggest contributor to inequality/lack of mobility.
Great post IR!
White Collar Auto, any thoughts on this?
The GOP finally finds a good tax: on the poor
Joanne Bump, a senior policy analyst with the Michigan League for Human Services has a terrifying new report out titled “Tax Changes Hit Low-Income Families the Hardest”. The report is HERE (pdf) with an Executive Summary HERE (pdf).Last year the Michigan Republicans passed a budget that lowers business taxes by $1.6 billion and increases individual income taxes by $1.4 billion.
http://bloggingformichigan.com/2012/02/03/the-tax-timebomb-that-explodes-in-michigan-in-2012-is-much-worse-than-you-thought/
Cynthia, what do you expect from Michigan, their economy is in the tank. Illinois and betty need to hold on for the higher taxes they will get in orderl to pay the debt they are accumulating.
So Dont Carry it All--you dont think the education gap or senior entitlements cause a majority of the income inequality? We care currently funding through wealth transfers from the working poor and middle class who incur payroll taxes the payments of social security and medicare to the wealthiest segment in the aggregate in our society our seniors.
Second, the education gap creates a huge income disparity much greater than tax policy.
Finally, I completely agree we need an overhaul of the federal income tax code but IRs statements above are distorted and serve no purpose. Tax rates may not be as progressive in the sense that the top rate is no longer 90% but the amount of tax paid by the various segments is actually greater and more progressive than the rates. So that was a very distorted comment. So is the use of payroll tax if you take the position that social security is not welfare and the payment of those taxes is your contribution to your future retirement benefit. Other federal and state taxes are used for various purposes different than the federal budget so its so misleading to say that someone who is making 20k and paying various forms of state taxes pays more as a percentage than someone making a million. I want to say Duh tell me something that isnt an incredible grasp of the obvious math. Our tax system needs to be totally overhauled but shouldnt be used to create equality of outcomes as we will never have equality of effort, investment, talent, intelligence that would lead us to conclude we should have equality of outcomes. Progressives want to ignore that part
Retool to what? He's aready a tool!!!!!!
Cant fix tool as in cant fix stupid....
Obama /Biden 2012
the MSNBC front page headline reads...
Hey, I got it. Jesus: carpenter. Mitt Romney: son of carpenter.
That pesky Mormon problem solved!
ok .. I've been resisting all morning, but true to my faith, my inner-sinner is coming out. The headline really should read:
"Romney retools, promotes son-of-a-female dog-tied-to-a-roof image"
RedDev
if your inner sinner is this hysterical,...let 'em out more often!
RedDevPS - LOVE your inner-sinner!
Hummmn. 'Spin' as in turning a post-hole auger and drilling a hole in the ground?
Different color lipstick, but it's exactly the same model with identical boobs.
Clara, Red, Cynthia -- You girls rock! Go girls!
Kirk -- Reform taxes. Then and only then can we get a clear picture.
Romney might come across as a little more "human" if he had something other than cold, hard cash running through his veins. He needs a transfusion all right, but he's not going to find it in his DC fund-raising trip.
Ursula, just wait till he gets that nail spitting thing down, then you'll see the real man. Be ready to duck.
ideology, maybe Romney will swallow a few instead...after all, HE'S not the carpenter!
Let's see---Romney is told he has to retool his campaign---again---and of course he listens because he himself seems to lack any instincts. So in attempting to appeal to his conservative base he comes to Washington to have fund-raisers and appear at CPAC. That will endear him to the moderates/independents he needs to vote for him in the fall.
I've got news for Willard, any carpenter 30 years ago could spit nails out point first, if they couldn't they didn't survive. Willard's father wasn't unique like Willard would like to portray him to be. BTW: I thought Willard's father owned a car company. Is Willard trying to change the history of his own family now, like he tries to change the history of America. What Willard won't do for a vote.
Willard's dad was probably a carpenter for a minute in his lifetime and that makes Willard want to use the story so the "incredibly rich" label goes away. Santorum's dad was was blue collar all his life. Both are great stories of people making a better life for their children and moving up in life however Willard has trouble owning the story because he is genuinely disgusted by the thought of carpenter work. Hand him a hammer and see what he does. Just do it naturally and see how he reacts. I bet he stairs at it for an uncomfortably long period of time.
Ursula,
There is a photo op circulating on Facebook that shows Romney and seven kids in t-shirts. The First in line is wearing a tshirt with just the "R" logo. The remaining six are lined up M-O-N-E-Y. You simply CANNOT make this up or photoshop such a PRICELESS image.
Not only can they not spell,...their misspell is yet another BLUNDER! lmao
Romney - so RICH Money is IN THE NAME! lololol
oh be fair - Romney's father used a hammer ONCE to hang a picture. That makes him a carpenter, right?
Sanity - Me thinks the picture Romney is trying to paint is that his father built a house by spitting nails. He was apparently a failed carpenter as he sold the house paint from the station wagon to pay for his honeymoon, never completing the job.
Red- good one! Was that the same car he tied the dog on top? Oh wait, that was sonny!
The problem for Romney is that the one thing he had going for him, his aura of inevitability and cadre of establishment supporters, has been shredded or rendered irrelevant following Tuesday's stunning upsets for Rick Santorum. Conservative voters have yet to consistently rally behind an anti-Romney alternative, but they are also refusing to settle for Mitt as their nominee. This sets up either a long and bitter primary that will end with a Romney flameout, or else a general election where Tea Party voters stay home. The GOP is in trouble. http://www.sunstateactivist.org
mattpfl - I don't think that's the only problem for Romney - far from it!
Close Matt - it's both the moderate elite & conservative elite that is in trouble. The people of the party are now taking charge instead of following their weak talking heads.
I am guessing the President reverses his Birth Control Mandate around 5 pm Friday evening.
Even the Dems are bailing on this one.
WCO, now why on earth would he do that? he is not catholic, and even the majority of catholic women agree with him. The catholic church is not a credibile sex education source and has no right, considering the recent priest sex abuse exposed, to even discuss sex much less oppose a women and a man's (yes, shocker, many men very much want birth control, sterilization, and the morning after pill to be legal as well as abortion) right to decide the size of their family. your employer does not have the right to tell you how many children you can or can not have, and that is exactly what the catholic church is trying to do - poor, silly, head in the sand Catholics - don't they realize that the majority of the people who work in their hospitals are not Catholic?
Morning WCA ... not a complete reversal however. Their will still be some joy in the WH watching the right go nuts about this at the CPAC circus this weekend.
The Democrat officeholders from heavily Catholic districts anyway. You may be right, but then there are other special interests pushing hard the other way, too.
The thing that gets me is this. The Administration has maneuvered itself between a rock and a hard place, for nothing. And, from what I'm reading this morning, they knew it was coming (reports that Biden and others said this could get ugly). Even Republicans acknowlege that political amateurism isn't a valid criticism of this administration. This sure seems like an amateurish mistake.
But in the end, yeah, I think something will be compromised.
UnionSlacker says: "poor, silly, head in the sand Catholics".....
Very nice, slacker. You wouldn't DARE say anything so nasty about good ole PROGRESSIVE ISLAM, would you? Of course not.
Damage:
You wouldn't DARE say anything so nasty about good ole PROGRESSIVE ISLAM, would you?
Well, I would if they lived with their head in the sand, by the way, all the members of Islam I know are devout republicans - wanna send them back? We never had any in our small county until georgie took office and delivered them to our doorstep with a free government grant (oh yes, they all told me how they got here) to buy up all the convenience stores in the area they could, they get free healthcare, they get free food stamps, and sing the republican mantra day in and day out - now who you think you are fooling with? Also, we had very few Mosqus in our state until then either, care to explain?
Paul - The Administration has maneuvered itself between a rock and a hard place, for nothing
Spot on Paul. He flat out blew this one.
You are right ideo. Some modification is coming, but Obama has opened himself to a criticism he didn't need.
You're right Slacker. Nobody in ISLAM living with THEIR head in the sand. Nope. Your post is funny. I detect more than a whiff of an "anti-Islam" vibe. You know, that's not gonna go over to well with your fellow lefties here, right?
Muslims? Big George W fans? Ehhhh, sorry. Not buyin' it. You're gonna have to prove that one. Now go do some work.
Well, Damage, not sure where you live, but feel free to stop in any locally Iranian/Iraqi owned convenience store and speak to the owner/manager. it is something they are quite proud of in Tennessee. We now have about 3 we no longer buy gas from - Kroger gas is just fine with us and it is cheaper. No, don't have any anit-islam vibe, just the truth, which you seem to avoid like the plague.
There you go again White Collar Auto, making predictions again. You realize you haven't got one of your predictions right.
This is a winner for the Democrats, and the President knows it. He loves to through something like this out there and watch the tea people GOP republicans tie themselves in a knot over it. Talk about a President who knows how to play the tea people GOP republicans.
WCA -- I agree. This has been planned from the beginning. Is everyone trying to tell us that the most conniving and ruthless political machine this country has ever seen did not know the firestorm this would create. The Boxer's of the party are part of this as well. He will back down and it has been planned. This is to make himself look moderate and compromising. It is political gamemanship like he said he would run away from.
Super PACs are evil but gimme me some of that evil money LOL!!!! What a hypocrite. Say goodbye to Biden. He's toast for warning the prez LOL!!!!
Say hello to a democrat that will run for president -- in fact one that I could support -- Senator Joe Manchin of WV.
Ben - Any fighter knows you fight equally. President Obama had no choice but to reverse himself on the PAC issue and no one of integrity claims that the GOP - if in the same position would not have done the same thing. I love to see the small minded right jump on this since their candidates have embraced the PACs all along. Clearly no integrity there!
Damage 123---Thanks for defending the Muslim right to be as deranged as the Christians
This contraception issue is so 1960's, come on people, it is nothing new, we have had contracepton along with self desired sterilization for many years now - if you want it your insurance should pay for it, if you don't then they should pay for you to deliver a child rather often - so which is it? Do you think the insurance mogules would rather give up a small portion of their bonus to pay for contraception or a larger chunk of the pie to pay for the birth of a child plus any health issues the mother and/or child may face? Even I know the answer to that one. We all love babies, we all love children but the big problem is that it is kind of like those pesky congressmen/women - we love ours but do we really love everyone elses? If so then we should agree that everyone should have the same healthcare across the board. I know a lot of good people who work for Catholic hospitals and they are not Catholic, so are these hospitals going to tell good Baptists, Methodists or Presbyterians they can't have birth control options in their health insurance plan? I doubt it. Sorry folks, but the Catholic church, it's bishops and pope's have very little influence on my vote, especially considering the sex abuse scandels of recent years. So, tell me again - why would their opinon on any sex issue be relevant? So far I can find nothing to make me believe it is.
Amen Union Baby.
Try having a look at the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. It might be highly informative.
I have NEVER understood religious bigotry- which seems to be exclusive to liberals- when we have an over-two hundred year, rock solid, founding doctrine against it. Then again, there is nothing in that document that precludes people being ignorant, so perhaps that explains it.
Obama should have learned something from his last attack on a religious organization- in that case, the Lutherans. We don't see many nine to nothing decisions from this Court, so you'd think such a thing would get more attention; I suppose it falls under the heading of "bad for Obama", so it was universally ignored.
Nobody forces anyone to adhere to certain religions- but, by the same token, no one can force a Church to adhere to secular doctrines that undermine that particular faith. If this does, actually, go to the Courts, Obama is going to lose, again.
Probably nine to nothing.
Then again, there is nothing in that document that precludes people being ignorant, so perhaps that explains it.
NoJo ... and of course the ignorant are not allowed to occupy the right, and that would include Creationists and homophobes, etc.
No Jo, you are one of the most bigoted people who posts on First Read, constantly casting liberal ideals as something they aren't, smearing Democratic politicians, and generally mis-characterizing every issue that comes up in the interest of demonising President Obama and Democrats in general, which, to me, is the very definition of bigotry.
Amy, what happened when you clicked the sleep ad?
Buck Naked SR.
Turns out to be an ad for a natural sleep aid that includes melatonin (which does actually work, in my experience.) The busty lady was just an enticement to get you to click on the ad. Now there is a cookie out there that thinks I'm a dirty old man or a flat chested lady looking to improve myself, no doubt.
No one is forcing a church to do anything. The church-owned businesses are another matter. If a church decides to go into the business of running a hospital or a school then they are subject to secular laws and dictates. If a church decides to hire persons who are NOT of that church or serve those who are NOT of that church, they have gone outside the boundaries of the church and they are responsible for applying more general rules.
You are misreading the first ammendment.
Amy,
constantly casting liberal ideals as something they aren't, smearing Democratic politicians, and generally mis-characterizing every issue that comes up in the interest of demonising President Obama and Democrats in general, which, to me, is the very definition of bigotry.
I agree with you, but you and many others here are just as guilty.
thetotas,
While I think you can fairly say that about ME,...I'm not so sure you can say that about Amy,...
Just my opinion.
Clara,
I would get so much more out of this place if people would just leave their crap at the door.
Just my opinion :)
The contraception issue is a fake outrage issue that the men need to stay out of.
Viagra should only be sold with a sixpack of rubbers.
Absolutely Job1, absolutely. My husband thinks this is the most absurd thing he has heard in years. If you pay your insurance premium you should receive birth control if you desire it. No one makes you practice birth control just as no one makes you practice safe sex - but unless you are trying to expand your family you sure want the option of birth control, and unless you are on a train headed for hades you know you need to practice safe sex. Besides, what do men know about delivering a baby? Loved both of mine dearly, but let me tell you guys one thing - no matter how you deliver, it is no picnic in the park! I saw a bumper sticker recently that I really like, "Keep your laws off my body". Nuff said.
7.2 . If you pay your insurance premium you should receive birth control if you desire
Yep, Union Baby, if YOU pay for YOUR insurance then you have that right. What Obama is saying is that Catholic Church has to pay for your insurance AND you won't even have to pay a co-pay. in other words, you're getting it for free. YOU aren't paying anything! And, the church is being forced to pay for something they do not believe in!
not true, dirt.
No institution has to PAY for the insurance,...However, a portion of the cost has become pretty standard in most benefit packages.
Of course when I pay my portion of the premiums,...is there any issue that I am, in fact, paying for this coverage myself?
So it wasn't enough that the Catholic Church aided and abetted the biggest pedophile ring in history. Now the Church wants to dictate our health care options? What if they decide God doesn't approve of cardiac care? What if the Church tries to dictate when and on whom to pull the plug?
Good luck getting non-believers to work in Catholic hospitals then. Or will they demand that all their employees be Catholic? I think that's illegal.
Health care should be between a patient and his/her doctor. Neither the employer nor the Church has any business butting in.
Clara - under both conditions that becomes the Catholic Church paying for things that violate their well documented beliefs.
You are assuming that they buy all their insurance from a company and not all faiths do. Many Self-insure, and there are also many faith-based health Insurance companies.
http://www.catholic-health-insurance.com/
http://www.glhealthplan.org/
http://www.phs.org/phs/index.htm
Once again this is the government forcing an individual and companies to pay/offer in some way for a service they did not ask for and do not want.
WAR ON RELIGION!!!
In the eyes of the GOP, "War On Religion" is bad!
...unless, of course, you're waging that war against the appropriate religion, right, gentlemen?
"Governor Romney opposes the construction of the mosque at Ground Zero. The wishes of the families of the deceased and the potential for extremists to use the mosque for global recruiting and propaganda compel rejection of this site." - Romney Spokesperson Eric Fehrnstrom, 8/10/2010
"[President Obama] is ignoring the will of the American public. The [Muslim] community center would desecrate the ground of those who were murdered by people who practice the faith, or at least an element of the faith, that is being represented by that mosque. Islam is not just a religion, it is also a political doctrine." - Rick Santorum, 9/14/2010
"There is no reason for us to accept a mosque next to the World Trade Center." - Newt Gingrich, 8/16/2010
Pizza Man- You're not exactly helping to dispel the widely held notion that Libs (including BBARACK HUSSEIN Obama) are more sympathetic to Islam than to Christianity.
Damaged,
If you're going to be for Freedom of Religion then don't just be for Freedom of Religions That We Like.
...and is anyone FORCING Catholics to use birth control?
Great point. Except you don't "like" Catholics. You don't like any form of Christianity and neither do any of the rest of the fools on here. You DO like Islam. Not so much for the oppression, beheadings, suicide bombings, and honor killings, but for the fact that 9/11 bumped them to the top of the liberal "Protected Victims" list. The fact that most of them are "brown people" moved them up a notch further still.
You people will fight tooth and nail to protect ANYTHING having to do with ISLAM. Christians? No way. I have NO DOUBT that, if most Catholics were from Middle Easterm countries and have committed some of the most horrendous terrorist attacks of the last 30 years, you people would be defending them instead of attacking them. That's just the way you people are.
As a former Catholic myself, maybe we should start.
Way to paint with a wide brush. I do like Christianity. I just loathe organized religion and all the atrocities and hypocrisy it has brought about throughout history.
Religion should be a private matter.
Right on, Noid! As I said elsewhere today, don't give me this freedom of religion crap! You're not facing martyrdom, you're not attending services in caves and you're not forced into birth control. You didn't get your way and you're whining like a two year old!
damage, actually bigoted people brought islam up the list of protected victims. if they hadn't started showing prejudice against muslims there would be no reason to assume they needed to be protected. people dislike christians cause they preach love and tolerance yet that's not what you get from them. either follow your religion or stop crying that people notice your hypocrisy and dislike you for it.
You know nothing...NOT ONE DAMN THING...about my faith.
...and since it is none of your business (just between me and God) I will simply and kindly ask you to please stop making assumptions about what I believe. Thank you.
AGAIN: You people would have had A LOT more credibility on this issue if you attacked ISLAM as much as you attack Christianity.
But as I said; Islam is near the top of the list of you people's "protected victim" list. You know, the list of people who are being oppressed by evil, white, hetero males. Could one of you please paste a copy of the list some time? It's a whole, fascinating hierarchy you numbnuts have. Is it true that Hispanics might soon bump Blacks down into the number 2 position?
"Christian" hypocrisy at its finest.
Gotta spread the hate.
This just in: Jesus was an Arab.
"HATR HURTER" (whatever the hell THAT means).......
Thank you for proving what I was saying. Exactly what anti-Muslim bigotry are you talking about? You mean the THOUSANDS of muslims killed in the streets of the USA after 9/11...THE WORST ACT OF ISLAMIC TERRORISM IN HISTORY??....Do you mean the Muslims deported and sent to concentration camps etc...? Is that what you're talking about?
IT NEVER HAPPENED.
Did a few muslims endure threats, vandalism etc...? Sure did. Damn shame. But a small price to pay considering. And don't tell people not to generalize when you do the same about Christians, again proving my point of liberal hypocrisy regarding religion.
Aw Damage, you really are damaged, aren't you? Poor, poor soul, everyone here knows I wear my Christianity like a badge of Honor - I am one of the few who attended David Lipscomb university (a Church of Christ, ultra conservative university) and we had to take Bible class every day - just like a history class. you should try it, will teach you a lot, especially that you don't leave out any part of it, like the teachings regarding money, taxes, criticizing other religions, and divorce with remarriage. Not very popular topics in your circles. I have very little knowledge of Islam, Buddism, Wican, athesiem, of Hinduism, but I know my Bible (especially the New Testament), very well thanks to a scholarship to a very exclusive university. Great reading, you should try it - the Bible, the whole thing, not just your favorite parts.
Damage:
Take your goddamn meds.
You're acting like Christians never committed any atrocities whatsoever.
In fact, Hitler was a Christian, so by your logic of "all Muslims are evil because of the 19 radicals on 9/11" therefore all Christians would have to be evil too, because Hilter exterminated over 6M Jews.
Stereotypes are bad, mmkay.
The GOPers cry "war on religion" while they wage a "War on Women".
@Ruken
And I thought that all of the people of Damage's ilk were supposed to be historians.
“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
Mahatma Gandhi
damaged, did hate crimes against white people skyrocket after mcvay bombed OK? if not why did they for muslims and other arabs after 9/11? i'll tell you why, cause they look different. as for painting christians with a brush, i've never met one who wasn't a hypocrite and who actually followed ALL of the teachings of their religion. when i do, i'll stop painting them all with the same brush. by the way, the rest of my family is baptist and very religous, as i used to be, like most until it becomes inconvenient.
fielden - one of my favorite quotes and it is never more true than over the last 3 years. How very sad.
Ruken - from 300 AD on, people were "Christianized" - nothing could be further from Christ's teachings.
Today, we have punchlist christianity.
Go to church - check
Give a profession of faith - check
Get Baptized - Check
Join a church - Check
Give money to Church - check
use Christian terms - check
Although God set these items to be done he looks at the motivation of heart of men. Are you sold out to him and follow his direction or are you just doing checklists of the things you think he wants you to do? Hint: if you are not doing the "deeds" in the power of the Holy Spirit - your are probably not doing his will.
I think the HCL says a lot about Obama's supporters. They are clearly trying to follow what they think God wants, out of their own understanding.
You have heard many say that Obama is not a Christian, but a Muslim. They are wrong. His is not Muslim. He puts his way above all including government and the constitution, and is using all of them at times and running over all of them at times to acheive HIS ideals.
DB Akron, I agree with the punchlist Christianity part.
But don't ever assume to know the will of God, and don't ever judge the religious beliefs of others.
Unless you're God...?
The name JEB popped up again this morning in an interview with Al Cardenas, chairman of the ACU. He opined that if no one arrived at the convention as a clear winner then a Jeb Bush is entirely possible. “But boy, it’ll be pretty strange to have a brokered convention,” he cautioned, adding, “If we have mixed results on March 6th [Super Tuesday], if it looks like this will go down a long way, I think Jeb Bush becomes more of a talking item without a doubt.”
Yes Cardenas has deep roots in Florida’s Republican crowd, but it is increasingly becoming apparent that the GOP leadership has growing concerns about a heated convention battle that would lead to a divisive stalemate. If Romney has a poor Super Tuesday, expect talk of a dark horse to become louder and wider.
Red Meat Zombie Days & CPAC … only 2 things will interest me- will Ron Paul win the straw poll for a third consecutive time … and Sarah Palin’s address to the throng. Let’s face it, this convention will be little but a race for Conservative bona fides before a rabid crowd of the GOP fringe. Minor fun may be supplied by Romney delivering his best speech to date and succeeding only to further dowse the flames of his candidacy.
Seeing as this space is open,
Biding my time through a power outage up here yesterday and harkening back to the early sixties when on a trip to Plattsburg I bought a crystal radio. It was shaped like a rocket … the fuselage a wonderful red and the nosecone that was turned for tuning a pure white … just a wire and a clip to attach to some metal object for better reception … and then a few years later and with the same rocket lying in the warm air of Cape Cod hoping to hear Jose Feliciano sing ‘Light My Fire’ one more time for the twentieth time that day. Why had I not kept it? And then wondering why I had not kept my potato gun … and then what happened to my brown eyed girl … singing while I wait for the modern world to reconnect … sha na na, na, na na na, just like that … oh dear, power is back up and here comes my green eyed girl … post quickly and then deny there was ever a brown eyed lass.
Good Morning Ideology,
I agree, that "Super Tuesday" will be a pretty defining moment for the GOP primary. To see if a Romney nomination has enough, um, oomph, to bring along the rest of the base. (And CPAC is always an amusing exercise for those on the right).
As to your 60's journey, for fun I just bought a lava lamp! (They also sell black lights). Guess some things never go away!
Morning Phine, seeing as you are a Floridian, what is your take on Cardenas? Is he a big supporter of your current Governor?
Ideology,
Cardenas wanted high speed rail. And at this point very few are going on record to supporting Scott. I doubt he favors much about Scott, except maybe the (R) after the name if Scott is the only name on the ballot! He is from Cuba originally and likes Jeb and Rubio a lot. Since he is really a south Florida guy and I am a north Florida gal, well, don't get that much exposure to him.
Does that help?
Romney retools his message?
Oh my gosh. I couldn't read past the headline, lol. I'm sure it isn't lost on FR that the primary criticism of Romney is that he's been retooling his message constantly for six years (if not longer) depending on his best guess of what the audience of the moment wants to hear.
A lot of these guys will pretty much say anything to get elected. But with Romney, remove all hesitations, qualifiers and conscience from that equation. He's elevated (or lowered) the practice to a form of shameless art.
And to throw in my obligatory Morman bash of the day, I wonder how much of that artform was honed on the missionary trail. A little "L for the L" perhaps? (Yeah, I know everyone reading from the flashing servers in Salt Lake City understood that reference.)
Paul,
I agree after all these years one would think that Romney would have his message down pat. (Question is, did he ever have a set, core message?)
And sorry, I didn't get the "L for the L". Only times I have been SLC has been to change planes!
phine - it's "lying for the Lord." Every current Mormon I've encountered on these boards will say they've heard of it, in the past, but they don't know anyone personally who ever instructed missionaries to lie in order to gain new numbers. But every ex-Mormon I've encountered says it was and still is common practice. They have what seems like a lot of personal stories about it.
Thanks, Paul. I guess I lead a sheltered life! LOL
I'm Mormon, and that's a first for me.
Actually quite surprising when one of the Church's main teaching is honesty. The temple recommend interview even includes a question that says something to the effect of "Are you honest in all your dealings?" You can basically find the questions they ask in the April 95 Ensign magazine publicly available on their site. The article title is 'Your Temple Recommend'. Every missionary has to be asked this before they go, and several times in the field.
I find it interesting that the only ones that you have heard that from are the ones that had issues with the LDS church. I'm sure there are people who used to be members of the LDS church who have turned around and decided to work against it who will claim such things. Yet, most church members who have served missions, whether currently active or not, are not saying it.
I also find it interesting how wildly inaccurate information is from those people who have decided to work against the church. The funny thing is that most of the claims that people make about LDS beliefs and teachings can be easily verified on their site without even having to log in. They put their Sunday school teaching material on their website. They even put their general administration of the church manual online to the public. Yet I still see the wildest things people say about my religion that are nowhere near accurate.
My recommendation would be to use verifiable information from the source. If you actually wanted to know what the missionaries taught, you can find their manual on the lds.org site. It's called 'Preach my Gospel'. You don't have to sign in, answer any questions, or anything. No missionary will even know you were at the website.
"Romney re-tools"--I thought he was a big enough tool already.
Did you mean maybe "Fool"?
Mittens is a tool...he'd been better of running as a conservative democrat...the nazi wing of the republican party will never fall in love with this guy
Rick, you are right, and so far as I can tell, Ron Paul supporters are not going to vote for anybody but Ron Paul. man, I do love to watch the republicans eat their own for breakfast.
Yeah, Rick. And just as sson as he gets the nomination and has the nerve to stand in the way of your boy's second term, it'll be amazing how you suddenly consider him a "nazi."
Wow, Damage123, you've managed to remind us of Godwin's Law AND Strix' Law in two short - if incoherent - sentences.
what are those laws?
I am a DEM and I ain't voting for Obama
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
Oh Jeez. It's David Skywalker. Shouldn't you be off mailing applications to the "Daily Kos"?
Buck Naked Sr - you've NEVER been a DEM!
The notion that Catholics abide by the Church's prohibition against contraceptives went away with the rhythm method.
This whole issue is being used by repukes as another divisive wedge issue.
Women should be seething mad over the repukes insistence that non-secular entities run by the church, i.e. hospitals and universities, should be exempt from including contraceptive converage in their insurance policies. It's an attack on women's reproductive rights, and Independents, especially should be turned off by the repukes's tactics.
Pat, correct, once again - women and most men are going to think this is the silliest thing the gop has done in a long, long time - heck, it's their can of worms, so it may be fun to watch them squirm a little over it. and of course the new job's report is something the republicans are going to avoid like the plague, unemployment down again - YES WE CAN USA, YES WE CAN!
The irony is that most of the Catholics that still believe in the church's doctrine on birth control in this day and age are too old to even need it. It is an unrealistic doctrine in an era of overpopulation and overconsumption of resources.
We have a college here in W. Pennsylvania that does not wish to abide by certain federal laws with which it disagrees so it accepts no federal money--not even student loans. They do separate fundraising to help out students. The Catholic hospitals and universities had the same choice and did not make it---they accept federal money and must abide by federal laws. And what about the 28 states with similar policies---there are Catholic institutions in them. Where was the outrage?
Michael - so true. As a Catholic mother of 5 (of which are 4 women - using birth control) children, this does seem to be an issue with older members (my mother, for one) and those whose views are narrow and unbending. For those who say we are not really members due to this or will go to hell, this is between me and my God, and as far as I know, we are not regularly screening our members for ten commandment offenses such as divorce, cursing, etc.
So True Pat, and I am seeting mad!
It just shows how desparate they are. They are void of a viable candidate and the only way to incite their base to MOVE is to gin up the fear and smear machine of the culture wars.
I guess Bricker at Komen didn't report what a SOCIAL winner that 'trump' card is, now did she?
Women are FEDUP with being the patsy for the GNOP culture wars. Castration is looking more and more viable - Was it Feisty that mentioned Boxer needs to come up with the Bobbit Amendment? I'm IN for that, Feisty!
^^^^^^
Hey Steeler Fan,
I see you got our former head coach for your offensive coordinator. He is a really great family man. His oldest daughter and mine play volleyball together. He says he is glad to be coming home!
This law is an attack on Christianity period. All Christians believe "thou shalt not kill" unless their not Christians. Contraception is a very complex subject and I just don't want the government telling me it's good for me so I have to accept it. Next the government is going to mandate that I eat 2 servings of broccoli a day because it's good for me.
GranCanyon - every Christian believes in their own way. Birth control is not offensive to the large number of Christians but people telling us what we can do with our bodies is!
Clara----we are so excited to be getting him as our offensive coordinator. Sorry your daughter is losing a friend but we are looking forward to having Haley here. How great that he gets to return and help the team get back to the Super Bowl! Our offense is the youngest average age in the NFL!
ideologyspoilstheview #9===You scared me with that talk of a Bush. I have prayed that every political Bush person would have ganged together and move to Paraguay, South America never to be heard from again. But that is just a dream of mime.
Seattle Sue, if anyone is the heir to Reagan's porcelain throne in the misty eyes of the Republican elite it is JEB. Canada will welcome you with open arms if you decide to stray ... just bring cash.
Seattle Sue - anyone with the "Bush" name is probably afraid to leave the US since Georgie has an international arrest warrant out for him (as does Cheney) for war crimes. Family is probably afraid to get caught up in the mess. Sad thing is Jeb is probably the smartest of all but I don't know anyone that EVER wants another Bush in the White House (even on tour)!
Here's a bit irony....Republicans were warning American voters in the 1960 election not to vote for the Catholic candidate, i.e. JFK, because it would be tantamount to ceding the Presidency to the Vatican. Fast forward today, and what's the Repubicans doing now with this contraception issue? Letting the Vatican dictate our laws.
spot on, pat!
I never thought of that, but you're absolutely right. Imagine the exact same situation, but it was a Muslim saying that some U.S. law went against their religious belief. Would Republicans and Boehner be so quick to defend them on principle?
I was wondering: If religions are permitted to ignore any law that violates their religious beliefs, why can't Mormons say that polygamy is a crucial part of thei religion and ignore the laws against it? The answer, of course, is that the government can pass laws that effect religion, as long as those laws apply to everyone equally.
As the article says, this is a non-issue. The only ones making noise about this are the church itself and Republican leaders. It will not effect elections, since it doesn't involve jobs or the economy.
Sue & Ideology - after the last couple of bushes, I think this nation realizes we can't afford another brush fire!
Union Baby, Tennessee
I disagree, Jeb will be sold with the this time you get the smart one tag.
Idology - now that is funny, I don't care who you are! haha. Good one, fortnately i don't think that dog is gonna hunt this time around.
You mean "I don't care about the very poor" wasn't effective?
i'm the son of a vet, do i get VA assistance? if not then what does his father's early life profession have to do with anything?
One thing about the democratic party, they are not lock steppers. These democrats like Kaine and Manchin trying to distance themselves from President Obama are the latest example but their motive is simply political; how foolish of them to stand on a principle that even Catholics find outdated and ridiculous. Manchin represents a state with a big evangelical and religious constituency, make it sound as an attack on faith which it is NOT. Kaine is looking to win in Virginia, a state which swings back and forth like a pendulum. I would suggest that these democrats take a good look at America, the polls on this subject because they will be surprised to learn that people, including Catholics, are way ahead of the male politicians and church leaders.
I would remind the media and the politicians that the majority of the public does not care about this nontroversy the republicans with the media's help are stirring. People care about jobs, about their paychecks, about their children's education, about layoffs of fire fighters, teachers and police, they care about having enough money for food and a roof over their heads. The last thing the public is focused on, except for a small segment of republicans, is contraception which has been accepted by this country's majority for decades.
Jody, it was kind of a shock to this former Republican that Democrats have differences of opinion in public--not in "quiet rooms." Takes a bit of getting used to. I do disagree with my Senator Casey and the others but I've also learned that most Democrats aren't single-issue voters.
Jody and Steeler
What I find disturbing is the inability of our leaders to help us think about these issues, without exploiting people's gut, emotional reactions. Politicians who claim requiring employers to include coverage for contraceptives in their insurance package is an attack on religious freedom are demagoging.
You want to know what an attack on religious freedom is? Read about governments that shut down synagogues or governments that require officials belong to the Catholic Church, or governments that forbid Muslims from praying at work, these are attacks on religious freedom. Requiring employers to include coverage for contraceptives for their non-Catholic employees? I don't think that violates the Church's freedom.
On the Ron Paul front, I just read an interesting article over on Slate. It was an interesting look at Ron Paul's strategy and I have to say that it's really kind of brilliant. Basically Ron Paul is focusing his attention on states who have a pseudo Electoral College (aka Delegate) system.
For example, it doesn't really matter that Santorum won the recent state votes. While the Santorum voters packed in for the initial vote, they soon left and ignored the rest of the election process. This is ironic since the election of their Delegates hadn't been decided at that point. From what I'm understanding, these Delegates can cast the real vote for the candidate they want. Similar to the Electoral College, the "popular vote" candidate choices are merely suggestions for the Delegates and don't have any true control over their voting.
Ron Paul's supporters did just the opposite of the Republican masses. While the pro-Paul people knew they couldn't win the popular vote, these people had been educated on just how their political system truly worked. After the voting masses left, the pro-Paul members managed to pull off an impressive Delegate election rate from the remaining voters (who were inherently stacked with pro-Paul people who knew to wait for the real vote).
I have to say that I'm personally impressed. Realizing that they couldn't beat the masses, the Ron Paul supporters took the time to educate themselves on the election processes in their states. As a result, Santorum's sweeping win of those states (as reported by the mass media) might end up meaning nothing since most of the elected Delegates are die hard pro-Paul people (who will ignore the results of the popular vote). If Ron Paul can really stealth into the Republican convention will this kind of hidden support, it could really shake things up and make the nomination process actually mean something.
Those are nice sentiments, but we are not going to elect a 77 year old geezer for President - period. He is just too damn old and ornry. John McCain proved that point 4 years ago. Ron Paul does not represent the future of America or anything else.
"Hey, baby, I'm your handyman." This probably makes James Taylor want to spit nails!
Best lineof the day, Gail! I think it is a riot that we are supposed to think Mitt is a common man because his father worked as a carpenter (love that religious illusion) and became RICH. Excuse me, Mitt---that would make you the son of a rich man.
People tend to fear the unknown and what they don't understand. People with lower IQ's would tend to be more paranoid since they know and understand less than the higher IQ people. Smart people tend to play on people's fears in order to manipulate and gain power over them. While there is no guarantee that change is always better, change is usually better or at least the smarter people can figure out the flaws in change and better react and/or change the flaws for the better. I would love to have someone do a study on the median IQ of republinos, conservatives, Democrats, and liberals as the party of no and conservatives want less change and actually fight against change that the Democrats propose. This would lead one to conclude republinos have lower IQ's and thus want less change because they fear it. At one time people believed the earth was flat, was the center of the universe, and that people were created, not evolved. Birth control is a sin, all abortion is evil, women should earn less for the same amount of work, women don't belong in the work force; all of these are examples of outdated beliefs. The point I am clumsily trying to make is the republino conservatives have more fear than the "normal" person because they aren't as smart as the average person and since they believe change is bad they strongly and blindly oppose all change. They don't want the rich to pay more taxes because they earned more, they don't want abortion because it is indeed the killing of life without exception, they don't want universal health insurance mainly because that's a huge change. They opposed all the changes the Democrats proposed and hence voted in favor of the tea party and more conservatives in 2010. Conservatives are paranoid and hence want a stronger military at any cost, are afraid of unions because they fear union members receive more benefits than they do and the list goes on. We liberals must be more patient and caring for the republinos for indeed ignorance is not bliss and they must be shown a better way in spite of themselves and their paranoia. After all, there is only one Earth and we all live on it.
Mittens probably had three wise men visit him in the manger he was born in too.
Romney re-tooling his message should include getting a speech coach. I participated in forensics in high school and I not only listen to what a candidate says, I listen to how he says it. Romney always seems to be rushed, like he can't wait to get the hell outta there! He doesn't look comfortable. The President always looks like he just calmly finished a beer!
Secondly, get away from the common man crap! You were born rich, you've gotten richer, you'll die rich and the next 10 generations of Romneys won't be anywhere near a soup kitchen! So, CAN IT!!! This is as transparent as the emperor's new clothes!!
Auntie....you are so right on target. Romney is the most ill-equiped guy for being on the public stage.
He is just cringe-worthy almost all the time. He's awkward, constantly uncomfortable, and tries so hard to show that he is comfortable that he makes everyone listening to him even more uncomfortable. lol
he's a public persona train wreck to be perfectly honest.
And stop with the "I'm one of you"....that's when he really tanks. Because it is so apparent he knows it's not true. "My father spit nails", "I know what it's like to be unemployed" "I've gotten a few pinks slips in my day". lol....
just from a public speaking perspective....he needs to stop that. He cannot pull it off. Be who you are. The problem is....he has spent his entire public life being who he thought others wanted him to be, that I really believe its impossible for him to now just be who he truly is.
Auntie---you are so right about the "common man" thing. The 5 Romney sons have a trust fund of $100 million. This before they inherit any of their father's $250 million. And of course their father wants to eliminate the estate tax.
He's just a "common man", making impulse $10000 bets on national TV.
GizmoA51, So Democrats are smart and republicans are dumb. What does that make all the Independents and moderates in the country. Are we just marginal by your standards?
If this were the 1960s, we'd be analogous to a mixed-race child.
We're ostracized by both sides.
Ruken, If both sides continue to ostracize the middle they are going to have a hard time convincing us to support them in Nov.
lisa s-1749992
Reading back to GizmoA51's post, he didn't say anything about independents. If you're suggesting that he was talking about you, it sounds a bit like the paranoia conservatives suffer.
BTW: There was a recent scientific study that did come to the conclusion that conservatives (on average) have lower IQs than liberals (on average). Of course, there are many conservatives smarter than the average liberal and many liberals dumber than the average conservative. So please don't take offense.
Lisa, If this country does not reduce, balance, live within it's mean we will cease to exist. case in point Greece.
Romney has made some flubs and so has President Obama. Knocking down Romney does not elevate your guy. Personally I'd rather listen to the message he's giving "Believe in America" and lets make it better. We already have a smooth talker to deal with.
Houston, I wasn't suggesting that he was talking about me. I just don't like stupid stereotypes. Don't worry about me I won't let that conservative paranoia overtake me.
Auntie..I couldn't agree with you more. To me, it's almost painful listening to Romney deliver a speech or give off-the-cuff comments like a "victory" speech after a primary. He is so ill at ease that his listeners HAVE to be picking up on that and hence, his message if any, gets lost to the listener. Of course, to those who worship him, they don't care about his message anyway.
Romney seems like a man with no core values .He runs from his record in Massachusetts, runs to Switzerland and the Cayman isles to avoid taxes,Even runs from his own faith in as much as deplores Catholics getting contraceptive info when public money is involved but says nothing when the full weight of the federal government came down and outlawed polygamy. Wants to start a war in Iran but publically states his five boys would not fight, as they are serving their country working on his campaign. All B.S.
yea, Romney is one of us....pfffffhhhtt. give me a freaking break. This guy has changed his tune so many different times on so many different issues, he doesn't know who he is!
I tell you who he is....he's a extremely wealthy guy who has always been and always will be and had absolutely no idea whatsoever how it feels to live pay check to pay check and all the problems that come with living that way.
He is a clueless rich guy. That's who he is.
LYNN, honey....get a life. or die. I really dont care either way.