An economy built to last... Dam rite

President Obama is the man!!

Holder in charge of a special unit to fight wall street 'corruption.'

Maybe Holder can smuggler all them bad loans across the boarder to wreck Mexico.

Holders good at ensuring bad stuff happen there.

You it's almost like Obama doesn't know we are flat broke.

Good thing we have plenty of cash for all those tax credits and programs to redistribute wealth.

Spanky, your rhetoric is old, irelevant and totally wrong. If you aren't one of the 1% then you really are like a slave telling their master "beat me again".

I, like Obama and everybody he hangs out with am Sandy.

Thanks for asking.

Now how about you get out there and earn more so you too can enjoy giving a tin away to the government that wastes 1/2 of every dollar it gets.

So Sandy - are we, or are we not flat ass broke? Oh and Obama needs another $1.2 Trillion RIGHT NOW. Can you help him out?

Fiesty- Once again, why does someone who does NOTHING other than pushing papers around make MORE in ONE day then those who put their lifes on the line for the SAME annual salary?

What the hell kind of country have we become?

The kind where you can earn and work as hard, smart, little as you want. A country where YOU have the choice of determining how you want to live and pursue the education or skills to achieve those goals. Actually it's not the country we have become, it the COUNTRY WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN and YOU want to change it.

For those who don't believe there's any connection between tax cuts and the deficit, I'd recommend the New York Times' "deficit-fixer" interactive:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/11/13/weekinreview/deficits-graphic.html?hp

Just try making a few small adjustments like putting the estate tax back to where it was under Clinton or letting the Bush tax cuts expire and see what happens.

The top tax rates are too damn low (see The History of Taxes)

And that's assuming that people like Romney have to pay the top tax rate. Instead, they pay lower than the lowest rate.

The GOP spends all its time slavering about the deficit, but they won't do a damn thing to fix it!

It was really funny how the Indiana governor chosen by the Republicans to give a rebuttal to the State of the Union started off by congratulating Obama for having such a strong family commitment, which Gov. Daniels said was "an example to a nation sorely needing such examples."

Now, he couldn't have said that as a snipe towards Newt, could he????? Nahhhhh.

Romney paid 14% because he made his money off investments which were ALREADY taxed once at the highest rate when they were earned. If investments are taxed at the same rate as regular income then what incentive is there to invest at all? Too bad so many Americans do not understand this, I think we are going to lose our best candidate based on misconceptions. I am NOT one of the 1% either. FYI.

"If it's all about fariness"

there is 47% of taxpayers not paying their fair share

let's start there...

If they raise the capitol gains tax, millions of lower income families will also be hit on their investments in stocks and mutual funds. They pay taxes on their income, and when they invest it and make a profit, they are taxed again. I don't mind paying taxes, but the Government should spend my money wisely and not spend it on watching a shrimp on a treadmill. There is too much spending waste and not enough spending cuts. The Government needs to be disciplined. The more money we send them, the more they will spend. If they keep it up, maybe we shouldn't send them any more money.

If they raise the capitol gains tax, millions of lower income families will also be hit on their investments in stocks and mutual funds.

If the raise the capital gains tax rate only on the very high earners, then your concern is moot. I think that's what they have in mind since those making under $250K/year won't be affected.

If investments are taxed at the same rate as regular income then what incentive is there to invest at all?

Because not investing it all results in even lower returns. For some of this country's most prosperous years, there was no special capital gains rate.

But, you're right, there has to be some compensation for the double taxation. However, we should limit the lower capital gains rate to investments made in the US, to US-based companies that keep the money in the US. The rate should also apply only to productive investments ... bonds and stocks bought directly from the issuer. Speculative instruments, such as derivatives that don't make more money available for productive investment, shouldn't be eligible.

@Teresa Obviously you DO NOT understand this, like most of the American's you claim to represent. He was taxed on the initial investment, correct. But HE IS NOT taxed on that initial investment again. You invest 1 million dollars that was taxed at 35% and now it is worth 1.5 million dollars, you are NOT being taxed 15% on 1 million dollars. You are being taxed on 0.5 million dollars. Hense why it is called capital GAINS. What makes that 0.5 million dollars ANY DIFFERENT then someone who works in an office and makes that in salary? Why does the person who made it by investing get to be taxed at a 15% burden while the person who has to actually produce a product or service is taxed at 35%? It is friggen income, so stop spreading that lie.

RAF...as every Economics 101 student knows, increasing taxes generates revenue in the short run, and decreases taxes in the long run. Anyone worried about the next election cycle wants to increase taxes. Anyone interested in America's long term good does not want to increase taxes.

So the President says that millionares and billionares need to pay the same Tax Rate as the Middle Class. What the President FAILS to mention is that there are 2 separate taxes being discussed here.

I'm sure like the rest of us that the Income these received earned was already TAXED at a higher Rate. We are talking about INVESTMENTS!!!! Now that rate may be Lower. Why is this so hard for the President to EXPLAIN????? Mr. President - You say that YOU and People like you need to pay more! Well I believe you got a refund last year - something like $12,000.00 - You could have just told the Government to keep your refund! You want to pay more - Please send your money at anytime.

But bottom line - When you speak of a Tax Rate - Lets break it all down. So I'm guessing You do have Investments to PAY TAX on - or you would know this!

Donna ... we all know that two different tax rates are at issue here. The question is whether the tax rates on investment income should be lower than the tax rates on "earned" income.

Barry-NJ - Sure you are assuming that everyone knows that there are 2 tax rates being discussed. Right - go ask about 50% that Pay NO Federal Income Tax if they know the difference. People only know and hear what is being stated. Come on now - you should know this!

Lets start by taxing the presidents friends at Goldman Sachs who have cleaned up during there man made depression! I believe the derivitives traders are taxed at fifteen percent! lets start there feisty!

Yes Fisty, you're right. A mob armed with torches and pitchforks should storm the homes of anyone who has more than YOU.

This a-hole does not want to clear a path for people to create their own wealth and inspire them to succeed, he wants to tear down success and equally distribute the MISERY.

Jimmy Carter, now available in black.

,'-D

50% that Pay NO Federal Income Tax

HALF of that 50% are retirees earning Social Security. Do you suggest that people should pay taxes on Social Security earnings?

Talk about not knowing what you're talking about.

It is not a coincidence that the top bracket is at HISTORIC lows and the debt is at HISTORIC highs...the only wealth redistribution going on is the 99% giving to the 1%. Watch the teabagger fight tooth and nail to keep it that way.

Angry White Teabagger,

Jimmy Carter, now available in black.

Thank you for admitting the inherent racism in the teabagger movement. Nothing Obama has done is socialist, or even liberal yet you hate him because he is a black guy you have to call Mr. President.

by fair does the CiC mean everyone has the same tax rate say 10%, 12%, 15%, 20% wtf, over? Not everyone is going to be a millionarre in this country. Some people have ideas that turn out to be lucrative, so what? We do not take it away and give to others.

We the corporations? Half of that 50% are retirees earning Social Security. Do you suggest that poeple should pay taxes on Social Security earnings? Well - What goes around comes around. You want people to pay more on their Original Income and then the same Tax Rate on their Investments! What about the Death Tax when someone Passes Away and leaves money to their family etc. They pay Tax on money that was already TAXED! If someone already pays anywhere from 35% to 50% on their Original Income and now you want them to pay that same rate on their Investments is not totally fair. Their Investments should be a LOWER rate. It all about GREED!

Of course you did not hear President Obama speak about the difference between these Tax Rates last night! I'm guessing the President has no investments.

He (and apparently Feisty Dead Head as well) is an idiot. EARNED income is taxed differently than capital gains, which have already been taxed. It's just another way to try to encourage class warfare and win votes from intellectual midgets.

I wonder if Congress will exempt themselves and the President from the "Buffett Rule."

I think Americans pay enough taxes. The government needs to cut spending.

Amazing how many people really have no concept how an economy actually works. Economic growth and productivity are a result in people pursuing their best interest. Nothing wrong with profit and is the fuel that keeps an economic engine running. If there is no profit then why invest.

But our founding fathers knew that government was necessary for the TRUE functions of government like protecting the nation, establishing laws and private property rights, establishing a court system to insure that rules were followed, etc. But (and here is the important part) the functions and powers of government are LIMITED!! 10th Amendment states "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people". In other words government has LIMITED powers!! Yes, taxes can be assessed for the purposes of the costs of LIMITED government!!

So let's fast-forward over 225 years to today. Government taxes our economy to the tune of about $2.3 TRILLION a year!! But spends $3.7 TRILLION a year!! Where does that money go and why is there a deficit? If you add up the annual costs of Medicare/Medicaid, Social Security, Income Security, and interest on the debt it is already just over $2 Trillion. So, in other words, before the FIRST dollar is paid for the ACTUAL functions of government we have already spent our tax dollars. The president has not been paid yet. The Congress has not been paid yet. The National Park system has not been paid yet. And so on. So the balance ($1.7 Trillion) must be for the TRUE functions of government (although that is debatable too with all the waste, unnecessary departments, foreign aid, etc.) but STILL the TRUE functions of government are affordable. It is the spending on things the government should NOT be involved in that is causing the deficit.

So stop with the whining about "the rich are not paying their fair share". Not only are they paying their fair share but they are paying MORE than their fair share. Cut government to its TRUE functions of government and we have PLENTY of money. BTW, let's even assume for a moment we increased taxes $1 Trillion on the "wealthy" (and let's further assume this does not create an economic decline which anybody with the IQ above a turnip knows that is the case and is the case right now of why our economic engine has stalled) do you REALLY think we would not STILL have a deficit next year? This president is like a kid in a candy store. Give the kid $1 he wants $2 worth of candy. Give the kid $10 and he wants $20 of candy.

The ONLY way to stop this economy killing debt is to CUT SPENDING!! We DON'T have a revenue problem we have a SPENDING problem!!

Any income is the money coming for the person in that year and should be treated same irrespective of its source. The tax rate should be same for that income. People choose the source of their income based on their skills and resources and that is the way it should be. People should not be choosing the source of their income based on what would attract low taxes. This is what is wrong with the current tax code. It pushes people away from "earned" income. If you think about it, you would see that society should reward the people who are working to have "earned" income. Today, a rich person will keep getting richer because he is not working his money is. When the money works, the taxes are low; When the person works the taxes are highest. This all talk of double taxation is an eye wash. The true measure of tax calculation should be based upon the total incoming money for an individual person; period!

I'm really not going to get into the tax argument because there's plenty we can do to fix/simplify the tax code. But I wanted to respond to Feisty regarding the "paper pushers" who do "nothing".

Investing in a business or businesses may be "pushing paper" to you but it's called RISK to the rest of us. When you are paid a salary, it's fixed. You get the same salary every paycheck, zero risk. When I invest $1000 in a stock or mutual fund, my investment might increase to $1500. But.......... my investment might decrease to $500. There's RISK associated with investing........ that's why it's taxed at a lower rate (assuming you held for a year and a day). It's also the economic engine that fuels business growth and jobs. No investments...... No jobs. It's really not complicated.

I know you want to believe that Mitt Romney, or hedge fund groups, or individual investors always make money on their investments. I've got news for you.......... you can lose a LOT of money when you invest. And you can't cry over it or plead for your money back or ask for a bail out. It's gone. You can deduct up to $3000/year from your income and carry over the rest to future years. If you've ever lost 10k or 100k, that not very comforting. In order to encourage people to take on risk, capital gains from that risk are taxed at a lower rate topping out at 15%. Now get this........ Lower income folks (like my parents) who are in the 10% or 15% tax bracket who have mutual funds enjoy a 0% capital gains rate. Let me say that again, the LOWEST income tax brackets pay a 0% capital gains rate. Why aren't you screaming about the unfairness that these people aren't paying their "fair share"?

I'm sorry you don't understand how bright you have to be to "push paper" and make money but the truth is... if it was so easy, everyone would be doing it.

A country where YOU have the choice of determining how you want to live and pursue the education or skills to achieve those goals. Actually it's not the country we have become, it the COUNTRY WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN and YOU want to change it

I think DJ is talking about the wealthy in this country. They have the choice to do anything they like such as afford college, etc. Since the mega-wealthy own most of DC lawmakers they are steadily getting laws passed making their lot EVEN MORE "free" in that they keep more of theirs and take more of ours...which of course makes it more difficult for the non-wealthy to have all of those wonderful "freedoms".

It used to be a country of freedom but the wealthy elites are making it a country of serfdom.

If someone already pays anywhere from 35% to 50% on their Original Income and now you want them to pay that same rate on their Investments is not totally fair. Their Investments should be a LOWER rate. It all about GREED!

Yea. A friend of mine was complaining that an investment he had made over the Internet in oil was taxed by capitol gains and he only made $10k. My response was, "That's 10k you didn't have before and all you had to do was read up on what stocks and click a mouse? Gee, I wish I had your problems..." Surprisingly, he agreed.

Speaking of greed; The president said the tax rate would be 30% and it sounds like a bunch of cry baby wealthy folks who don't like the idea of paying something closer to the average person's tax rates.

Cry me a river, buddy. I'm not doing bad right now but I wish I had your problems.

Historically taxes have been MUCH higher. Just do a quick search for federal income tax rate history. The IRS has charts that show that married couples who earned 160,000 or so a year or more paid 50% in tax and it went up to 70% or higher! These were times when we were being innovative, had pretty decent growth, etc. We've been stagnant for too long. 30% is LOW when comparing it to the history of our tax rates.

OMG!!! The GREEDY BASTARDS will have Obama ASSASSINATED!!!! Damn those SOB'S!!!

OWS KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK....The mantra should be "HOLD WALL STREET ACCOUNTABLE!"

If we are still the country that the conservatives say we are, where all people are still free and ABLE to get the education and skills needed to succeed at any level they choose, then why is it that the colleges, universities and tech schools (on the one hand) as well as the banks and school loan institutions (on the other) trying their damnedest to disprove that point??

Here's the dilemma most people who want a better future face....they want to go to school to get that degree, but can't because the tuitions are so insanely high. They will hear from the more well-off people "get a college loan!! Hell, that's how I did it!" Well, times are different now! You can't get a loan with no job or no prospects. Loan institutions are currently experiencing what the home loan industry has been going through for three years now. Loan defaults by the tens of thousands.....losses amounting in the millions of dollars. Unless you have a stellar credit rating, you're screwed as far as getting a low interest rate, and that's even if you qualify for any type of loan at all!

In the old days, companies knew the value of work ethic, and loyalty. Those two qualities combined with on-the-job training, developed workers who were able to start with no prior experience, and through hard work, they could work themselves up the corporate ladder, making higher salaries that were hard-earned increases. Companies did what they had to keep the experienced workers they had, through regular pay increases and job security out of loyalty from both sides.

Now, most companies seem to take more stock in people entering the workplace with a piece of paper that said they paid a king's ransom to some college for 4 or 6 or 8 years, and somehow that makes them more able to do a certain job. The trend is heading to even entry-level positions requiring at least a bachelor's degree to even be considered for the position. Intercompany employee development is a bygone idea these days.

Anyone who still thinks that this country is still "the land of opportunity" is sadly mistaken!

Okay, for those of you wanting captial gains to be taxed at ordinary income tax rates, will you then allow more than a $3000 deduction in a year when someone has a capital loss. Right now, the tax laws will only allow a person to deduct a maximum of $3,000 per year of an investment loss against other income while taxing the full gain. To illustrate, say a investor makes $250,000/year in ordinary income and investests $50,000 of that money and gets a return of $10,000. As it is now, that tax payer pays oridnary tax rates on the $250,000 and 15% on the $10,000 capital gain. Now if that tax payer loses $10,000 of the $50,000 investment, he can only reduce his taxable income by $3,000, not the full $10,000. That is one of the reasons captial gains are taxed less. I say if you want to tax capital gains as ordinary income, then you have to allow any investment losses to be fully deductible against ordinary income. Without it, the investor takes on all the risk while the federal government has no risk but shares in the reward. Please, someone who is advocating to raise the captial gains rate to ordinary income tax rate levels share your thoughts on this.

Colorado...there is no rhyme or reason. They just know rich people have it and they want it. Its that simple.

I just hope that when the president mentioned "making rich individuals and greedy corporations pay their fair share in taxes", he included his pal Immelt, GE and most of the Obama administration's cabinet members.

I also found it ironic that when the president made this statement, the camera zoomed in on John (keep my yaht in R.I. to avoid taxes) Kerry. BTW, the 50% that don't pay taxes, should. With the exception of the elderly who are on Social Security (who are on fixed incomes). Long term cap gains tax should be kept @ 15%, as those who risk their money by investing should have an incentive to do so. If it was raised to 30%, nobody would invest, which would hinder the creation of new jobs.

The solution to our economic woes is not more taxation, it is less spending by the federal government.

Eat more, pay more... Regardless of fairness.... For example, teachers, in my opinion, deserve more because they affect more lives.... Why do they get paid less.... Football players, do little to improve the lives of others, why do they get these obscene salaries.... You get more dollars out of the economic sea, good for you, now pay your fair share of taxes. The more you make the higher your bracket... Period... Last time a President, a good president, tried to mess with the profit making structure of the elite he got killed.... Remember JFK and AL....

I've come to the conclusion that we either have a lot of millionaires here on the vine, Or a lot of blinded middle class people with nothing but their opinions. Why would anyone in their right minds defend the way the rich are taxed compared to the hard working class of people? They have to be millionaires..... It's like they are Igor, You work like the common slaves you are and you pay the lions share of taxes while I'm buying my third home on some private island. Yes masters. We'll take the drippings from your rich pockets. Come on people!!!!! What in the world is this?.... The twilight zone?

STLMIke....I would most certainly look into raising the $3000 limit on capital losses, but only if they made the capital gains tax rate the same as income tax rates. And that means, if your investments made you richer by millions of dollars (as in Romney's case), that should be looked at as income and subject to tiered tax rates. The more money you make, the higher the tax rate.

However, I don't know of many investors who are stupid enough to make overly risky investments on a regular basis. The VAST majority of investments, it appears to me, are money-makers, not money-losers. So, I would not look at totally doing away with a fair loss limit.

They should keep the capital gains rate the same, for gains up to 50,000 per year and raise it to 30% beyond the $50,000 figure. That way, middle income taxpayers would be able to make a few dollars on investments. After all, they spend most of their money on goods, which help creare jobs.

Anyone ever notice how Fiesty is often the first person to post a comment? I wonder if she works for MSNBC or the DNC...

Also, regarding the President's comment that "The president also pressed lawmakers to pass an extension of the payroll tax cut through the end of this calendar year." I'm glad Obama agrees with the Republican controlled House of Representatives. I recall the Democrats in the Senate REFUSED to entertain this topic in December.

Too bad Obama didn't clearly articulate the obstruction by Harry Reid and the Democrats in his remarks.

.

While Im not a huge fan of this president, I find it offensive that people use foul language when describing or talking about the President of the United States or really any person. I try hard not to use the word hate and use every means to use the word dislike as often as I can. It happens on both sides on this blog, right out of the gate. There are ways to get your point across with out being abusive. Although its difficult to defend some peoples vicious attacks on others opinions.

STLMike (1.36), you beat me to the same comment I was going to make. As an example, Mr. Obama mentioned GM in his speech but didn't say anything about the previous owners of the stocks/bonds receiving nothing when the government bailed it out. I am sure there are people that had loses that will take years to be able to deduct from their taxes.

John-2006106 Yep - Redhead is always the first and you rarely and I mean Rarely ever see her nasty personal attacks on people collapsed. Need I say Double Standard! LOL.

Devil's A,

If the "vast majority" of investments are money-makers and not money-losers, then why aren't more people investing? You can invest $50/month at many mutual fund companies and have an account so it's not a matter of not having enough money. If it's so easy, then everyone should jump in, right? I agree with you in one respect...... despite all the doom and gloom out there, the broad stock market has had positive returns 8 of the last 9 years.

If more people invested and paid the 15% capital gains rate (and in some cases a 0% capital gains rate), more revenue would be taken in at the federal level (even at a 0% capital gains rate, people would pay ordinary income tax on short term gains). This moves the economy forward. What I don't understand is this notion that capital gains are a tool of the rich. ANYONE can benefit from this! I may not make millions but those few thousands of dollars are real money to me.

The big difference is assuming the risk of investing money. And believe me..... you CAN and DO lose money. I've been there and it's not fun. But I have also had more winners than losers and that benefits me and the US Treasury. I just don't get the "fairness" argument when no one is preventing you from taking part in the investment options that are out there?

Guess whose tax rate last year was 6 points higher than Obama's? Newt Gingrich paid 31.7% of his income in taxes. Obama paid less than 26%. So does that make Gingrich the better person or the better candidate?

Feisty,

Many get paid a lot because they know which papers to push around. You clearly do not understand. Some are overpaid but your broad brush leaves streaks.

People, the 30% number is a bluff. By throwing around 30% as the target, both the GOP and the millionaires will feel like they got a great deal when they finally settle at 20 or 25% and the rest of us will be happy to see a minimum anything close to that for them.

Even a 10% minimum would be a huge increase in revenues and could help pay down the debt some and allow us to invest in retraining for skills required for new jobs being created.

At any rate, he opened a can of worms because now the American people want to know how much all of the millionaires and corporations actually do pay. Expect some very probing and embarrassing stories to come out listing all of the players that are not paying anywhere near their fair share.

jollyoldsoul1

While Im not a huge fan of this president, I find it offensive that people use foul language when describing or talking about the President of the United States or really any person. I try hard not to use the word hate and use every means to use the word dislike as often as I can. It happens on both sides on this blog, right out of the gate. There are ways to get your point across with out being abusive. Although its difficult to defend some peoples vicious attacks on others opinions.

You speak so much truth jollyoldsoul1 I,m totally with you on this I do my very best at not attacking anypne personally when I make my comments on this board. I don't think in my almost 50 years that I've seen such hatred among any set of people towards each other as I do on this blog. As I was being raised by my parents, If they would hear me or my sibbings say some of the things that folks on here say to each other my parents would have slapped the taste out of your mouth. But then again that very well could be the problem with some people on this blog.... No one ever taught them right from wrong, How to treat other people with respect. It's hard to give people something that you have never heard about, Or been taught while you were coming up.

Those of you claiming the rich don't pay enough in taxes and should pay a min of 30%, you fail to realize the effective tax rates that most Americans pay. Every tax bracket pays an effective rate that is less than the actual marginal tax bracket. As of 2009, the top 1% of income earners paid an effective tax rate of 24.01% (min AGI $343,927) of their AGI, the top 5% ($154,643) paid 20.46%, the top 10% ($112,124) paid 18.05%, the top 25% ($66,193) paid 14.68% , and the top 50% ($32396) paid 12.50%. The bottom 50% (<$32,396), paid an effective tax rate of 1.85%.

As a percentage of all income taxes paid in 2009, the top 1% paid 36.7% of all income taxes with their share of income being 16.9% of the total AGI, the top 5% paid 58.7% of all income taxes with their share of income being 31.7% of total AGI, the top 10% paid 70.5% of income taxes with their share of income being 43.2%, the top 25% of income earners paid 87.3% of income taxes with their share of income being 65.8%, the top 50% of income tax payers paid 97.7% of income taxes with their share of income being 86.5%. The bottom 50% of income tax payers paid a total of 2.3% of income taxes with their share of income being 13.5% of AGI.

These numbers are based on the IRS review of 2009 tax returns. Its hardly possible to say looking at the numbers above, that the top income earners are not paying their fair share when they pay between 20%-30% more of the total tax bill each year than they earn in income.

Suppose I make $1,000,000 Obama wants me to pay 30% or $300,000 in taxes. Suppose I make $999,999 and the tax rate is less, say 29%, the millionaire will only pay $289,999 and save $10 grand. Can't this man think -- all I have to do is donate a couple of bucks to charity and I make $10 grand. AND, he is not talking about a graduated tax, he's talking about only a 30% hit on millionaires. The man obviouslyy did not learn how to think and never studied tax law at Harvard. That is not a "loophole" it's obvious to the blind.

Like all other Demogoguerycrats on this issue Obama is all hot air.

The Obamas are millionaires. Yet never once have they voluntarily paid what they are calling for others to be mandated to do. He should lead by example and put his money where his mouth is.

But that won't happen. Because this isn't even really about 'fairness,' which is just Democ Rat code speak for Class Warfare. It is merely a Statist Technique attempting to divide and conquer the electorate.

BTW, rest assured that Feasty Dead Head and the rest of the little rats have also never paid one extra cent of Federal Income Tax.

Considering the shift of wealth to the few over the past 30 years, when will you on the right say enough is enough? Are you so blind as to think that they will not take yours also. How they must chortle at your blind allegiance to their right to greed. The American Dream has become a nightmare. Do you not hear yourselves? You are humourless voids chanting nothing but doom. Your Mantra is make the middle class pay for the excesses of the rich. Did you not hear Cristie proclaim clerking in a store was a middle class job?

Ideology,

The president lauded the economy on the late '40's and '50's as one of the greatest on record, I was waiting for the real shoe to drop but it never did.

If the economy back then was so great, (and it was) WHY don't we go back to the policies we had back then since it was the governments policies that created it?

I'm sure all those liberal faithful would just love that.. ;-0)

Of course, there wouldn't be all these myriad government agencies anymore, no bailouts, no corporate welfare or any welfare for that matter, education would be under the control of the counties the schools are in , no Dept of Education, no EPA, no OSHA, no military industrial complex and their private armies, respect for the constitution and it's limits on federal government....

the list of crap we wouldn't have to deal with is too long to post...

Ideology,

The fight is just not about "class" anymore, it seems. It is one side of the political aisle wanting total destruction of the other side. And anyone in the middle be damned.

Real wealth concentration is just a fact of life.

Especially in the super fair countries like China and N. Korea - you know where they say they are for worker equality?

Yeah, that crap don't fly.

I presume Egilman that you are also referring to massive investment in infrastructure?

Spanky,

Wealth concentration in the middle east led to the Arab Spring. Are you okay with that happening here?

Egilman,

Would the right be willing to go back to those tax rates for the wealthy if the left gave up its regulations?

(See, two can play that game)

Spanky, if you are content in comparing Obama's concept of America to North Korea, have that conversation with yourself. The world laughs at your attempt to define your President as a Socialist. Your argument is nothing but a red herring.

Ideology & Phine,

yes and yes!

I would absolutely support both. if anything to lose all the government controls invading our everyday lives...

Of course the whole thing driving the issues today is unbridled greed on both sides...

Phine what I posted earlier is what rings true about many of the GOP posters on FR ...

“What looks like politics, and imagines itself to be political, will one day unmask itself as a religious movement.”
― Søren Kierkegaard

Egilman,

So, clean air, water, food safety, port security, airport security - you are okay to chuck all that?

Ideology,

Sadly, I am beginning to think it rings true on BOTH extremes. And it is scaring the crap out of me!!! Does one need a sponser to move to Canada?

Yeah - totally ridiculous and silly to compare 'fairness' to socialism.

All animals shall be treated equally.

Some more equal than others.

America - it ain't fair. You are free to succeed and free to fail.

How much is enough ideo? Nope, the only question is why would you ever ask that question.

But hey - writing a tax provision/scheme to hit all millionaire at least 30% so be SUPER easy. A bunch of tax attorney and CPA are about to get paid.

So phine you clearly missed the NY TImes article on Apple Saturday. Check it out, super insightful.

Egilman, your country will need a viable third party to achieve what you wish.

I, as you, lived back then, and I felt a lot more secure back then than I do today, and I didn't have to fear my own government.

I didn't hear anyone complaining about unclean air nor water, and the USDA was a lot better at doing their jobs than they are today... there were strong unions that hadn't become completely politicized at that point they were still working for the worker for the most part...

I could easily go back ...

Well Ideology,

I don't think we have come to that decision point just yet, but I won't rule it out either. If we Conservatives can get our party back from the crazies maybe not, but if we have to do like the republicans did to the whigs back in 1840, I could go for that too...

Spanky, it works up here and the rich stay rich ... maybe one less house, but when you have 5 or 6 we should cry that there is not a 7th in our portfolio.

Ideology,

What is amazing to me is how blind both extremes are to the "real" America. We are hard working, just want an even playing field. Be able to worship or not worship the way we want. Pay our fair share in taxes. Tear up when you see the flag and laugh with folks at the local pub.

But today, we have such a partisan divide, we can't be one America. You have extremes that want to make us over in their image. And who is getting destroyed in this battle? The real America.

What is one of the things that brought down the great civilizations of the past? Political dysfunction. And, that's what we have today. Thanks to BOTH sides.

I could say more, but I am upset.

phine,

Political dysfunction. And, that's what we have today. Thanks to BOTH sides.

I could say more, but I am upset.

I didn't mean to upset you, I actually agree with you... we can't go back, I was just trying to point out that using the 50's as a benchmark in his speech was way out of context, given the political realities of today...

Egilman,

He used it to show what we once were and how we could be again. It was just an example - and the political realities of today best change, or we all are sunk.

Eisenhower was the last of the great Republican Presidents. Soon after the Southern Strategy destroyed the party.

Egilman,

Can you tell what is a true conservative? I would really like to know.

Phine,

I know that, I was just trying to make the same point here by debate, I don't think it came across the same way, but this is a tough room...

Ideology,

No argument there Ike was the last great classical republican in the Bob Taft mold, Reagan tried but had to pander too much to the radical religious sideshow that was beginning to dominate right about then...

Egilman,

Are you willing to trust Dupont and other chemical manufactures to your water? Or power companies to your air? The way these corporations lust after the biggest profit possible, do you really think they would willingly cut into profits to protect those around them?

Ideology,

Believe it or not, Nixon had his good points. He did want a national health care plan.

thetotas

I don't think I'm qualified to say what a "True Conservative" is, I can refer you to writings of what a True Conservative Republican should be. Would that help?

Yes, anything.

Egilman, I would love to go back to the tax rates of the 50's when millionaires and up had a tax rate over 90%.

So you would be willing to tax the so-called job creators, now that's a laugh, at the 90%+ tax rates of that era. You would be screaming your butt off if that happened. Hypocrite.

Phine,

I wouldn't trust any corporation today with my pooper scooper, much less with my survival.

Nixon depending on who you talk to or believe in was one of the greatest presidents, or, one of the worst.

Bernstein said that Nixon would be remembered for his contributions to society and not his mistakes, and I find that this is the truth even if the die-hard liberal still love to castigate him...

thetotas,

give a little time it's going to take a little bit to look up the links...

but I will do it..

Thank you.

Sandy,

I think this is the first time I've gotten a post from you, you don't know me, so why are you calling me a 'crit?

Sandy,

Egilman and I disagree often on political issues, but a hypocrite? Never. I recommend you read some of his posts before going there!

Sandy, I agree with Phine. Egilman has far more integrity than most posters here. He is an island in the stormy waters one finds on FR.

Phine & ideology,

Wow! Thank you for you kind words, I hope you both know I feel the same for you both also...

Again thank you...

...remember no man is a failure who has friends..... Clarence, to George Bailey...

For two good friends...

Hey, we few sane folks gotta stick together! Ideology, wonderful quote.

Off topic. Has anyone seen the northern lights from the current solar storm? I am too far south.

we have 100% clouds and rain.... nothing here...

OOps, I meant, Egilman good quote. (that's what happens when my eyes get tired).

Darn. I was hoping someone had seen it.

It is overcast in Montreal and in any case the city lights would obscure all. To one and all I bid a goodnight and may tomorrow renew our chivalry.

Double drat. I guess with that, I shall take my disappoint to bed with a cheap novel and pretend to be reading as I am sleeping.

Good night, gentlemen. Always a pleasure to spend time with you.

Egilman - I grew up in the late 50's and 60's and in many ways I agree with what you say. Basically, government can't legislate human behavior and parents back then took more interest in raising kids with an outlook that they wanted them to have a better life than them.

It is indeed sad to realize that we have become such an entitlement driven country, didn't happen overnight and won't be solved overnight.

Sandy of missouri - best keep in mind the historical context of that era with respect to tax rates, lifestyles and attitudes.

thetotas

Egilman,

Can you tell what is a true conservative? I would really like to know.

True Conservative Republican should be...

Ok, I'll try to post links that bring the subject through.

A good basis for starting research...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicanism_in_the_United_States

An excellent definition...

usconservatives.about.com/od/glossaryterms/g/Republicanism

History of the Republican Party, Very Good basic read..

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States_Republican_Party

This last one will illustrate that these bitchy fights between Democrats and Republicans have been going on for well over a century. It's nothing unusual, and historically since the Civil War politically the country is basically Republican. This statement will get me in dutch with the Democrats around here but it is the historical truth.

Start here to get a good idea of the history, I'll go further into details later...

You could raise taxes to 100% on everyone and it would not help because the government would still spend 125% of what they collected. The real reason the U.S.A. was so successful in the '50's was because almost every other industrialized nation was laying in ruins due to WWII while our manufacturers and factories were untouched. That is why the draconian tax rates of the time did not destroy the economy.

Spanky isn't one of the 1% like he's lead you to believe. He's just a dolt that is delusional that maybe some day he will be. And in the meantime he's willing to support them with the hope of rubbing elbows with the 1%.

I'd bet he's typing his responses with one hand. Aren't you "SPANKY"?

Spanker

But hey - writing a tax provision/scheme to hit all millionaire at least 30% so be SUPER easy. A bunch of tax attorney and CPA are about to get paid.

Yea...How dare that mean ol' president (and a majority of Americans) try to tax those wonderful millionaires anywhere near the same rate the middle class pays. That's just not fair!

The Capital gains tax rate of 15% is the lowest is has been since WW2. The "Wealth" controlled by the top 10% is the largest it has ever been in this country's history..........DO THE MATH PEOPLE......

Spot on my man.

'Cept I'm kinda doubting the Lawyer in Chief or his lawyer wife, would go for it.

How about you, Spanky. You say your an attorney. Want to pony up the dollars?

You honestly believe that 98% of the American public pay 30-35% in taxes?? There is a very large percentage of the population that pays no income tax. People like you are why Obama is in office. Keep believing what he tells you.

At Billie: It's more like ~50% pay 30-35% effect tax rate. 53% of the returns filed count for 100% of all tax revenue. The upper few percent likely pay less, so I'd put it at more like 50%...

I don't know where all these people are living to not to get federal tax taken from their pay checks....

50% of people don't pay income tax?

did it ever occur to people that most people don't send a check in at the end of the year because nearly half of America is under the poverty level (made less than 22,000 annually for a family of 4)

Mire: It is not "all people" but rather of the returns filed, that is people working jobs which they receive a form W-2 for. The information is freely available from IRS.gov. A family of four making ~$40,000 in income will receive the standard "Married filing jointly" deduction of $11,600, current taxable income: $28,400. Now they can deduct their children: $3,750 per dependent x 2 dependents = $7,500, current taxable income: $20,900. That's just the basic standard deductions. If you start looking at other deductions, the taxable income keeps dropping. It's not hard to imagine the effective fed income tax rate dropping to zero.

Not saying this person needs to be paying all their money to the tax man, but you don't have to make less than $22k a year in a family of 4 to pay no fed income tax.

FYI - Remember all those people continuing to get un-employment? Guess how its being paid for (for just 2 months)? The money is coming out of the Social Security Trust Fund. Who is going to pay it back? The middle class. That's right, for the next 10 years, an $11.00/month fee has been added on to anyone that finances a house. Eleven dollars won't even be noticed by the rich. The poor can't afford to buy a house. So, BHO is sticking to the every class that he claims he is trying to help.

affinity

Just what do you think cutting Payroll Taxes do?? Don't you know that Payroll Taxes are FICA by another name?? WHAT?? You don't know what FICA taxes are?? Here is a BIG HINT. SOCIAL SECURITY FUNDING!!! SO who is DESTROYING SOCIAL SECURITY NOW???

BTW. That 240 you will save in the next 2 months will cost you about 5400 over 30 yars if you buy a house in the next 10 years. WHAT A DEAL!! YOU GET $240 AND IT ONLY COSTS YOU $5400!!!

PROGRESSIVE MATH AT WORK!!!

I love all these people claiming that 50% of the people pay no income taxes at all. Just how many of those folks would be retired and on S.S. meaning they owe no taxes anyway................DUH

The 46M pay plenty of taxes. What they don't pay is federal income tax, because they don't make enough to feed their families as it is......much of that is also thanks to wage stagnation over the last 30 years...want them to pay taxes-pay them better.....real easy....the value of the minimum wage is currently lower than it's been since 1950. In 1968, it was worth the equivalent of $10 in 2008 money.

Meanwhile CEO pay jumps every year by leaps and bounds, regardless of the quality of management provided.

The economy has thrived in the past on very high rates at the top, but I don't think it's fair to go that far.

Please also bear in mind that the rich are only taxed on what the feds find. There are probably hundreds of billions stashed offshore. They found 20B in just one Swiss bank in 2009. I have seen estimates that run as high as 20B per year in taxes that go uncollected because of this kind of tax evasion. I have little sympathy for people who are so greedy that being rich isn't good enough, they have to lie cheat and steal to avoid paying their share of the burden.

Dumping the Bush tax cuts will bring in more money. Stopping the wars and reducing the military budget will cut deficits. Streamlining DC bureaucracy as Obama wants to do will cut more.

Medicare can be fixed. No American should have to wait to be 65 to get health care. By then a lot of damage is done. Universal health care will help, but it's not enough. Allowing patients to work more closely with their doctors will help. Much costly and unwanted treatment can be avoided with Living Wills. Notice I say unwanted. Someone who wants the full enchilada should have it, but too many older people die in hospitals hooked up to machines when they'd rather die at home with their loved ones and some dignity.

This is not nearly enough. Universal health care ala Medicare for all would help reduce lawsuits. If all medical needs are covered, there's less reason to sue.

Our health should not be a profit center. More needs to be done to improve hospital care and reduce costs.

The biggest change rests with each of us. We need to eat better, exercise more, and work at reducing stress. We need doctors trained to help us achieve these things.

If we could cut the obesity rate way down, we'd save trillions, and we'd live longer.

So, rather than dump all over the President, go get on your treadmill and walk for half an hour every day.

Mare

Did you know that a family of four making 50,000 can pay ZERO INCOME TAX???

If everyone is on Medicare there is no reason to sue?? Your words.

If all medical needs are covered, there's less reason to sue.

Now are you saying that if a Doctor screws up and cuts the wrong limb off I can't sue,because everyone is on Medicare??? GOOD LUCK WITH THAT IDEA!!!

Do you actually know someone who makes $50,000 and pays zero taxes? Or is this just more of the GOP rhetoric of the middle class and poor not paying enough of the burden? Why should Rich Man get a tax break just because he earned the money pushing a pencil instead of a garbage can? Give me a good answer for that. And dont tell me that it is because he will create jobs here...if that were true Bush's tax cuts would have saved us from going into a downward spiral at the end of his presidency!

31% of that 47% only make a household income of $10,000 or less, 61% of that 47% have a household income of $20,000 or less. By golly those people need to pay more in taxes (insert sarcastic grin).

If tax breaks to the rich would really create jobs, then things should have been looking up after Bush's cuts. Instead, corporations took that money and either stashed it somewhere for safekeeping, gave it to their CEOs, or invested it overseas to create new jobs in China, India, Vietnam...etc. If corporations keep investing money in slave labor, we will never be able to compete and they will eventually take all of our jobs over there!

Time4aPurge

And the Great Lie continues! See the latest figures available by the IRS. Only .09% of the rich do not pay their "fair share". Put another way, that means 99.1% of the rich do pay their "fair share". So, the uneducated idiots of the Wall Street Mob, should be shouting the ".01%! But, that number does not make good propaganda

I call BS. The IRS also released a report last year stating that the top 10% pay only about 17% on average for income taxes. So please tell us again how they're all paying their "FAIR SHARE"..............NOT

I think he meant ALL income...whether you earn it working hard every day, or you earn it because daddy gave you some money to invest and you made a profit while you were on the yacht.

You are an idiot. You believe that everyone that has investments got their money from "daddy" and sits back on a yacht all day? Some of us take small risks with our money (already taxed at the income tax rate) and invest so we can someday live comfortably in retirement. Why don't you take a lesson from the rich and learn to invest? It would beat whining on the internet about people that have more than you do.

So you make 251K a year...and have money invested in tax free munis- supports fundraising for cities, states...etc. Now these tax free munis will be taxed at 30%?

The Roth IRA...will now be taxed if someone has over $250k in income.

Pretty drastic changes...and once again lets these benefits trickle down to lower income earners. higher earners lose benefit of Roth, Muni, mortgage deduction, education credits, earned income credit, child care credit, child exemption....etc.

I would support higher taxes...if everyone lost these deductions and exemptions. Not fair raising taxes on others and leaving loopholes for others. Not everyone has a house or children...why should they get a break? Remove ALL loopholes!

T-Rex - the problem with removing those loopholes after the fact is that people made financial decisions based on those loopholes. Like buying homes for instance. People paid prices for homes that were in part based on those deductions. How are you going to compensate them for a purchase they made in good faith? I agree that they should never have been put in place in the first place, it's social engineering that the government had no business getting invloved in (another example of government overreach). But now that they are, it's not going to be that simple to take them away. Not only are people going to scream bloody murder - but it will have a negative effect on the housing market at a time when the market is still in the tank.

T-Rex: The Roth IRA is an entirely different beast. I believe the idea was to tax all income from all sources at the same rate, so long as income exceeded a certain value. Generally a person does not liquidate their entire IRA at once, but rather, takes withdrawals over time. I don't think they'd kill off the tax-free growth of the Roth IRA, especially since the taxes have already been paid on the income. They would have to change the rules of the Roth system, but it might really nail the "traditional IRA" people -- they'd be on the hook for the applicable tax rate of the entire value of the account.

Matt: Taxes have already been paid on money I invest as well. Why should those dollars be treated any differently?

@Go: The way existing capital gains tax works is not to tax on the investment value, but on the growth created. So if you invest say $50,000 and at the end of five years, it's worth $60,000, you're only on the hook for the $10,000 net gain you've created. You have not paid taxes on that growth, under traditional investment. I'm not saying the system isn't flawed, but that's how it works. As such though, you're only liable for 15% tax on that.

I say we abolish the entire personal income tax, and change it to a VAT, corporate transaction tax, and simplify the tax code. That would sure put the hurt on lobbying, too.

As for the "money you invest," if you have a traditional IRA, you are not paying taxes on that money when it is put into your account. For most 401(k)s as well, these are pre-tax contributions, which reduce your annual taxable income. I participate in a Roth 401(k) option, which I pay after-tax dollars into, allowing tax-free growth. Since I'm still relatively young, it makes more sense to do it that way.

I understand capital gains vs. principle. We cannot participate in a Roth and our retirement accounts are all funded with after tax dollars. I was pointing out that those should be treated like a Roth.

@Go: You can't? That's weak. Recently my workplace instituted a Roth 401(k) option. If you have a traditional 401(k), it should all be pre-tax income. You should check with a CPA or someone, because you shouldn't be getting hit with double penalties. That is, unless, it's an unrestricted account, e.g. you have immediate access to funds, no penalties. I have a few funds I'm using to save for a down payment on a house, so it's all after-tax dollars, and I get to pay capital gains on the growth, too.

Steve, your first few sentences sound like every other president we have ever had...they all blame someone else! That is politics. But you have to admit, when those who are wealthy and powerful get to make all the rules, it is just human nature that all of the rules are going to benefit THEM. Now that Presidents, Senators and Congressmen essentially buy there way into office, there is no room for some average person, like me, to get elected and represent the average joe. If we do like the GOP wants and lower taxes on the rich, raise taxes on the poor and cut all social welfare programs..what do you think is going to happen to the suddenly poorer, homeless, hungry people? Do you think they are going to love any rich master who can put a roof over their head and a biscuit to eat?

When he had democratic control of both houses of congress, why wasn't this accomplished.

And the beat goes on. How do you think ANY administration could get everything done in 2 years? It doesn't matter what the subject is, conservatives say "well why didn't he fix all the world's problems when he had a majority" instead of "we're here too. Let's get something done".

Yes, Obama called AIG personally and laid out a plan of corruption. How is it that when a private company succeeds, they did it on their own. But when they fail, it must've been Obama's fault.

BearDown

Are you that gullible. Obama got that garbage health care reform done in less than a year without one republician yes vote. Getting the tax reform he and the democrats have been calling for since his first campaign should have been a snap. That is, if he and the democrats wanted it to get done in the first place.

Why would you post that nonsense about AIG, You're just showing your ignorance of the facts.

Stop deluding yourself about Obama. He's been implementing the Bush economic reforms since he took office so if there is an economic recovery in progress, its not his, but Bush's.

You Obama supporters amaze me with how you take Obama's rhetoric hook line and sinker without an knowledge of what he has actually accomplished or not.

The simple fact is; facts don't lie, but liars distort the facts. Obama has proved he is an expert at it.

BearDown

You are deluding yourself if you think Obama has been an effective leader. Your families share of the National debt went from $45,000.00 to $122,303.00 in less than three years under Obama. If you call that effective leadership then you should be ashamed of yourself.

It will never happen under Obama and is nothing but the same campaign rhetoric he used in his first campaign.

After all, Obama is a 1%er and he isn't going to raise taxes on himself. His words sound good to people like you who are uninformed, but sooner or later reality will slap you in the face when Obama's doesn't follow through.

That's right!! People should sacrifice, get a solid education, work as hard as they can, sacrifice some more, get more education, work even harder and they when they finally achieve "success" they should be FORCED to "share" it with those who refuse to work as hard or sacrifice as much. All "A" students should be forced to take a B grade so that their classmates who earn a "D" can instead have a "C" and be saved the humiliation of the grade they actually earned. Comm(unist)on sense indeed!!

poodle - you have been so brainwashed - and you lack of an economic education is appalling.

Liberals love to tell fools like you that the "pie" is a fixed size, and if "millionaires" are allowed to keep too much of the money THEY earned, YOU will have less.

Well, it's a humongous lie - and liberals should all burn in h*ll for constantly perpetuating that myth - because they are using it to encourage class warfare in this country and jusityf turning this once great country into a socialst h*ll hole - with Obama in the dictator's seat.

Here's a little newflash for you - the pie can GROW - but not if evil people like Obama and the rest of the democrat sh*theads are allowed to keep wheeling out regulations that destroy economic growth. In other words, poodle, you aren't a loser because Mitt Romney is rich. You are a loser because you are a lazy, whining do-nothing self-entitled waste of life who thinks that everyone else owes you a living.

Obama is redistributing the wealth in this country from the middle class to the 1%ers. 46% of our population now lives in or at the edge of poverty.

While middle class workers are getting less than 4% raises, the average CEO's raises was 36%.

Boy, are you people who support Obama gullible.

OK, let everyone pay something in. Lets start with axing those earned income credits, close the loop holes and a flat tax of 30%. Everyone needs some skin in the game.

TO: Texas-505356 who wrote:

"OK ... Lets start with axing those earned income credits, close the loop holes and a flat tax of 30%. Everyone needs some skin in the game."

Why do Republicans go straight to the poor people in this country? A family has to be making, PER YEAR, ONE-THIRD (1/3) OF THE AMOUNT OF MONEY THAT ROMNEY MAKES IN ONE DAY in order to qualify for earned income credit, but before you touch Romney's offshore accounts, you have to make sure you steal those food stamps from the mouths of the poor children.

I don't know where you've been, but I've had plenty of "skin in the game" for years now and I have to PAY taxes every year, but I don't even make as much money all year as Romney makes IN ONE DAY.

It's the rich people, like Romney who used that Lie Called the War in Iraq to play the Stock Market and they won big while we lost big, and now WE are stuck with the full cost of that Lie Called the War in Iraq.

Obama / Biden 2012

Well, I think a flat tax is as fair as you can get and I am willing to give up loop holes; whats wrong with the giving up earned income credits for those that pay NO taxes at all. Earned income credits take no income because it is free money that wasn't earned. It should be called non earned income credits. And this has no effect on the overgenerous food stamp program so noone is going hungry.

I am glad you have some skin in the game. My wife and I have payed in plenty.

Romney is a very successful businessman and he pays an investor to put his money into mutual funds. He made good choices in his life and worked hard and smart to get where he is. Whoopee do. Are you are envious? You sound like it.

I don't see how the IRAQ war has been so great for the stock market.

How was the IRAQ war a lie? Saddam was an enemy and we took him out. I just wish Bush would have smoked IRAN while he was at it.