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The Republican Party of Iowa announced Thursday that Rick Santorum finished ahead of Mitt Romney in its Jan. 3 caucuses, meaning the contest resulted in a virtual tie between the two candidates.
After more than two weeks of certifying the results, the former Pennsylvania senator pulled ahead of Romney by 34 votes despite Romney being declared the winner on Jan. 3 by an 8 vote margin.
The final official numbers stand at Santorum with 29,839 and Romney with 29,805, but the results from eight of the 1774 precincts could not be located and certified, leaving lingering questions as to who is the actual winner of the Iowa Caucus.
NBC News will not declare a winner in the Iowa Caucus. With the missing precincts, it is impossible to know the final results.
But the Santorum campaign believes the former Pennsylvania senator is the winner of the caucus – campaign email reads “Santorum wins Iowa” – and that this new development will perhaps help him the South Carolina primary on Saturday.
"We've had two early state contests with two winners — and the narrative that Governor Romney and the media have been touting of 'inevitability' has been destroyed,” National Communications Director Hogan Gidley said in a statement about the candidate.
“This latest defeat of Governor Romney in Iowa is just the beginning, and Rick Santorum is committed to continuing the fight as the clear, consistent conservative voice in this race,” the statement continued. Santorum was the one candidate who practically lived in Iowa – holding more events in the Hawkeye State than anyone else this cycle.
The Romney campaign, which always downplayed expectations in the state, is also pushing this as a tie.
“The results from Iowa caucus night revealed a virtual tie,” Mitt Romney said in a written statement released by his campaign. “I would like to thank the Iowa Republican Party for their careful attention to the caucus process, and we once again recognize Rick Santorum for his strong performance in the state. The Iowa caucuses, with record turnout, were a great start to defeating President Obama in Iowa and elsewhere in the general election.”
Iowa GOP Chairman Matt Strawn said the verdict from the first-in-the-nation caucus state is just too close to call.
“Just as I did in the early morning hours on January 4, I congratulate Senator Santorum and Governor Romney on a hard-fought effort during the closest contest in caucus history,” Chairman Strawn said in a statement. “Our goal throughout the certification process was to most accurately reflect and report how Iowans voted the evening of January 3. We understand the importance to the candidates involved, but as Iowans, we understand the responsibility we have as temporary caretakers of the Iowa caucuses.”
It is important to note that the Iowa Caucus results are not binding, meaning the results do not dictate which candidate the delegates at the national conventions in the summer have to vote for. So not having an actual “winner” of the caucuses will not have as big of an impact as it would in other binding states.
But a shift in results — from Romney ahead on caucus night, to Santorum now ahead weeks later — does appear to raise some questions about the Iowa Caucus process.
"This is bad news for the Iowa caucuses. It undermines their credibility in future presidential races. When so much is riding on an accurate count, to flub the counting will diminish the significance of the events in the future,” former longtime Des Moines Register political reporter David Yepsen told NBC News.
"Plenty of people are looking for reasons not to come to Iowa and this gives them another. You could title this story as Farewell to Corn Dogs," Yepsen said, who also noted that this isn’t the first time Iowa Caucus result have been called into questions. “Given that, the Iowa Republicans were on notice and should have done more to guard against this problem."
And no matter how the results turned out weeks later, many believe the limelight already passed for the “winner” — it passed on Jan. 3.
“This result doesn't change anything. The narrative was set following the caucuses, and reset after the New Hampshire primaries,” one Republican strategist and caucus veteran said.
Leave a Comment:
Well then... the world will never know! lol
Millions of dollars spent and Mittens still couldn't come away with a decisive win!
Why aren't voters feeling the ♥ for Willard!
ok he won Iowa BFD, hey Fiesty here is an idea, you can run dinners in Illinois and charge 5,000 or 15,000 for the later meal and you could be the entertainemnt during coffee and dessert, lap dances for all. just some hope and change for your state.
Weathervane says that voters are fickle. I think it's because he is what people see as the face of Corporate America.
So "man on dog" guy beats "dog on car" guy.
Where does that leave the real dog Newt?
I guess the headline, "Santorum surges from behind in Iowa," was as accurate as it was unintentionally hilarious.
Alberto_NY
Small corrrection - not $5,000 it is $15,000 per person coctail today at 4PM, and $35,800 dinner at 6PM
Love it! LMAO!
So the Iowa caucus was a fraud??? Oh no, you cant be serious? I mean didnt they ask for a private count, instead of publicly view?
I wonder how many votes they changed from
Ron Paulto Mitt Romney?And on such small details, history turns.
It really doesn't matter who the independents or repubs put up to challenge Obama. We will get 4 more years of incompetence from O. That is because even though he is a socialist and of questionable citizenship, the average voter is ignorant and spends their day watching Oprah and Jude Judy. Ethnic minorities will vote for him because they are emotionally invested in him; slackers will vote for him because they are finanacially invested in this welfare president; and lefties will vote for him because they are morons and will not get it until all of their freedoms have been taken. we are screwed.
hey sister!!! hold that thought!
Religion should not play a part in the elections! Considering that America is diverse, and especially that it is founded from immigrants...it should be equally faie and equal to everyone. Therefore by eliminating religion from elections....we would be forced to vote for the one who has the best policies for America...period!
Sister A, And President Obama's assault on "Christian" (?) values are? I am a Christian and I feel that the far right Christian attack on my beliefs are much more threatening than anything President Obama has, or is, doing!
Christians realize that President Obama's attacks on America's Christian values must be stopped.
Yes!!! We must stand up for REAL Christian values, like multiple marriages and "Open Marriages". That is why we must vote for a true Christian like Newt Gingrich!!!!!!
Yeah, you all are geniuses---let's get rid of religion in everything, then all of our problems will be solved. A completely amoral society, controlled by a completely amoral govt. Gee, what could go wrong. Brilliant. Hopefully you all will be too engrossed in dance with the stars to go out and vote.
Mitt should just give Rick this one in Iowa and call it an day ...so he got 34 votes --good for him. The ironic thing is they do not count as delgates @ the GOP convention anyway.. This "bloody fight' to see who gets to lose to President Obama in November is getting out od control.
A completely amoral society, controlled by a completely amoral govt.
If that is what you want you must be a Gingrich supporter.
let's get rid of religion in everything, then all of our problems will be solved.
How ironic coming from someone that calls themselves Johngault10014. You do realize that that is fairly close to Ayn Rand's position on religion, don't you?
uh, hello? Did you READ the post. It was sarcasm. Or has your brain been so turned to mush by a religion of sports and reality TV that you can't pick up on a little sarcasm. Duhhhhhh. I hope you don't vote either.
Whatever the sarcasm or irony, I agree we should get rid of religion, which is the root of a lot of our collective disagreements. Or, if we can't get rid of it, then tax the bejeebers out of it. At least 10 percent of all church receipts and ordinary property taxes, too. Call it tithing for the poor and direct it all to Medicaid and other assistance for low-income persons. What legitimate church could object to that?
As for separation of church and state, it's a long time since that religion has firmly attached itself TO matters of state, and churches who preach politics openly are not in a very good position to claim otherwise. If they want a voice, fine, but then they can pay their way, just like everyone else, for the government services they use ... just like everyone else.
johngalt, Religion is not the only source of morality. Ethical reasoning is a philosophical process not a religious one. Even a cursory review of history shows that religion is the most consistent source of immoral, violent, destructive behavior. A secular government is not by definition amoral, but I would challenge you to find, anytime in history, a religious government that has not been brutally violent.
And yes, I did read (and reread) your post and it doesn't come across as sarcasm at all.
johngalt10014 - So burned you all.... LOLOL
I read his post and sarcasm clearly and he was blatant about it...
Hook... line and
sucker.. err sinker...LOL again...
Religion is not the only source of morals. One can be a moral person without holding any religious beliefs. I personally am an atheist, but consider myself to be a very moral person. I chose to be moral, because of the compassion and sympathy I feel for my fellow man. While Im sure you on the other hand are moral out of a fear of retribution from your God, and your morals probably only apply to others that share your simplistic and narrow-minded worldview. 99% of our government is Christian now and how moral do they strike you?
I'm with joemike and stewgotts.
We get it, Shosyn. Do you?
@sister (#1.8) WHAT?? Your tin foil hat is on a little too tight. WTH are you talking about? First the pipeline project and then attacking our Christian values? Are these two somehow related in your mind?
The pipeline project needed to be stopped in it's current form. It shouldn't pass directly over the aquifers that feed whole states considering the amount of spillage we've had from pipelines. They need to pick a better path before it's approved. There are Republican Governors that are against it because of this. Or are they attacking our Christian values too?
BTW, why does the pipeline have to go all the way to Texas? There are refineries much further north, if the oil is to feed the US, why does it have to go all the way to a Texas refinery? So it can be shipped out to other countries through the Gulf?
joemike404,
I challenge you to find an athiest govt that worked. Hmmm...lessee...USSR tried it...not so good. Now their cathedrals are open again. Come to think of it, communism and nihilism and atheism all hold hands, merrily skipping down the road to destruction. God is our only salvation. People who ignore that are afraid of it.
Question: Has no religion, in your estimation, ever offered anything of constructive value to human life?
Ayn Rand: Qua religion, no - in the sense of blind belief, belief unsupported by, or contrary to, the facts of reality and the conclusions of reason. Faith, as such, is extremely detrimental to human life: it is the negation of reason. But you must remember that religion is an early form of philosophy, that the first attempts to explain the universe, to give a coherent frame of reference to man's life and a code of moral values, were made by religion, before men graduated or developed enough to have philosophy. And, as philosophies, some religions have very valuable moral points. They may have a good influence or proper principles to inculcate, but in a very contradictory context and, on a very - how should I say it? - dangerous or malevolent base: on the ground of faith. [Playboy interview with Ayn Rand]
Let's everybody remember that wonderfully worded question from the Texas pastor, Jeffres, referring to Romney as a decent man who (the idiot pastor believes) belongs to a cult: "Do you want to vote for a decent man OR a follower of our lord and savior, Jesus Christ? (now remember, people, it's an 'either-or' question!)
Sister Anita,
To what are you sister?
What happened to the results from the 8 precincts that are missing?
Other Ayn Rand quotes for our friend "Johngault10014"
To rest one's case on faith means to concede that reason is on the side of one's enemies- that one has no rational arguments to offer.
...if devotion to truth is the hallmark of morality, then there is no greater, nobler, more heroic form of devotion than the act of a man who assumes the responsibility of thinking.... the alleged short-cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only a short-circuit destroying the mind.
NISL
Of course religion offers everything constructive to human life. It is the only thing that keeps people going when they have gone past the limits of human endurance. because it is greater than us. God is greater than us. No matter how much one educates oneself (and quotes Ann :), we will never be as great as God. And gee, look awhat the wonderful prgressives have brought us---a loosening of everything and anything that adds order or structure to society. Violation of societal norms (especially societal norms based on Judeo-Christian ethics) isn't just trendy and stylish. It's destructive. Oh sure, it can last a while...like it has in America. The tryanny of the minority marches on, destroying things that "only our grandparents cared about" and yet society seems to conitue on. It will...for awhile. Ever notice our grandparents got a lot more done than the last couple of generations, notwithstanding their flaws? Things are slowing down. Americans are becoming dumber, slower, and fatter. Perfect for total control by lefties, atheists, and fascists.
Johng....
I did not say get religion out of everything....People have the right to practice what ever it is you choose. I said nothing about a amoral society...so please do not twist words....However Religion is usually the reason for alot of negative things....violence, wars, hatred, racism.....yes it does have good attributes as well. But you fail to recognize what i was saying....
Our presidential choice, or elections should be based on his policies for America future....not what club, membership, or religious affiliation he is associated with. For example, Santorum has stated he wants to support a "long war" and "eradicate" islam.....sounds like an extremist....he cares only for his religion, he is no different that Osama! I dont support Islam, i dont support Christianity. What i am saying is, we need to worry about the US and religion should not be a part of the debate.
Michigan Voter,
Good question. Why do they need to build this thing all the way to Texas?
If it's meant for US consumption, they can refine it up north and keep it here.
And Republican governors in the affected areas are not pleased to have this pipeline run through some of the most fertile land this country has.
Sister Anita,
I guess from your post it is safe to say that the Christian God will vote for a Republican. I bet you will also pray that your God allows the republican to win.
What you probably don't realize is that there are over a hundred million Christian Democrats. Many of them will be praying for God to let President Obama win. You do realize that President Obama, despite what conspiracy theorists (here we go) will say is a devout Christian?
I will go as far in saying that no matter who wins, people will claim God answered their prayers. What do you tell the other side? What do you tell yourself if President Obama does win re-election? Does this mean you were wrong? Does this mean God is a Democrat? I am just curious on your thoughts.
johngault - you probably need to change your name, because Ayn Rand (were she alive) would disagree with you and be a bit insulted you are using the name of one of her protagonists.
PS - If you follow the teachings of Jesus, you know, feeding the poor and healing the sick, you would be a liberal.
Mqira,
I DO support Christianity, and I do NOT support Islam. Why are you afraid to say it? I bet I know...it is because you can say ANYTHING you want to about Christianity and no one will send you a threat, nobody will issue a fetwa for your head. But say one thing against Islam and watch out...every militant muslim will be after you. Not just them, but the libs too. Isn't it ironic that libs are such avide supporters of muslims but not Christians? Irony b/c if a muslim caliphate ever happened, the very fist people they would go after would be homosexuals, atheists, apostates, and pretty much everything the left holds dear. Women especially should be very concerned about the religious views of a candidate...the muslim world does not place women in high regard. In fact, they hate them out of male insecurities and fear of a loss of control. Remember, islam is about submission. You can't intellectualize yourself out of spiritual warfare.
New Republican math :
Ahead by 8 votes = WIN
Ahead by 34 votes = "VIRTUAL TIE"
Actually that has always been the case.
Johng....
Remember when Galileo said that we were not the center of the Universe....he was told by the church, to recant his claim or be condemned as a heretic and be executed. Religion, limits peoples minds....containsm and constrains peoples imaginations and keeps them in a sub-level of existance. While i hope their is a higher power of some sort, i will challenge you that we are never as great as god. If you fell that you have limits...you will stay limited.
I apply all the "positives" of religion...such as the golden rule....but what the church teaches you is "common sense". Aside from the teachings of fear of god....fear in religion.
On a personal note: A young friend of mine...22 years old was just blasted by her pastor, for having sex for the very first time. He ridiculed her, and just tormented her. I advised her to rip him a new assh*le, and say that she is leaving that church, where she has donated over $10,000....he softened up his tone, and now wants "heal" her!($$$$)
Sorry, but if you have you own mind, and actually have control of your own mind...then you can do just fine without it.
On a political agenda....having religion in the debate...only puts different religions against another, it doesnt do America any good!
Nisl,
I would bet she would be very happy I am using hte name considering she found out the Truth after she passed form this world.
Are you saying conservatives don't heal the sick and feed the poor? You must not ge tout much.
Mqira,
I can almost hear the fear in your words. Why are you afraid to take a stand? God has taken a stand for you.
I have to get back to work...you know, to support the almost half of America without jobs. That gives them more time to watch jerry springer and memorize their favorite team's vital statistics.
Both religions are traced back to Abraham... both worship the God of Abraham.
Congratulations, you just failed at the basic history of your own religion.
I would bet she would be very happy I am using hte name considering she found out the Truth after she passed form this world.
According to your religion, a religion she hated and fought against, she is too busy burning in a lake of fire to read the comment section of First Read.
And yes, I am saying conservatives fight against the social safety net while Democrats fight to preserve it. The ACA (Obamacare) insured tens of millions of people while the Republican alternatives did very little for the uninsured. If you don't know that you aren't paying attention.
Actually Indie, the congrats are due to you for failure to read on any of the great religions. Judaism was first, then Christianity, then looooooong after Chritianity, a spice trader name mohammed wanted to cash in on the taxes the Jews and Christians were using to build a civilized society. mohammed looked around at the pagans and bedouins who surrounded him and realized the only way he could tie them together was to incorporate their pagan beliefs into a "final revelation" he claimed to receive in a cave. One item he incorporated was a meteor that many of the pagans worshipped it...he claimed to have slept on it after his acension to heaven and now that rock is in the kabba which is surrounded by mecca. During the hajj, the pilgrims all walk by, look through the window, and see the great meterorite. Read all about it. Meanwhile, mohammed the spice trader continued on his merry way, creating loopholes in the religion such as temporary marriages and basically getting to treat women like dirt. along the way, he incorporated texts from the torah and the bible and now you have the koran.
Johngalt,
You say Islam treats women like second class citizens, I 100% agree. It does, and that is a shame. It is a slap at the modern world.
I follow it up with: Christianity treats women like second class citizens! From Catholic, to Baptist, Lutheran, Mormon (okay, maybe 3rd class pieces of property in the case of Mormon) and all the others. I do not need to give the examples, in Christianity, women are NOT equal. Not even close.
Indie,
WHile you are catching up and reading a little...why do you think an apostate (that is, a muslim who turned away from islam and converted to chritianity) is more hated than an infidel (godless) in islam? It is because they know the truth about islam. Kinda scary huh? Have you ever heard of such a thing in other religions? Are Christians afraid that people will find out what they believe and then exploit them? Not at all. If you want to test it, try dropping in on any ol mosque around and see the reception you get. Remember islam is the fastest growing religion by birth, not conversion. Christianity is fastes growing by conversion...oh, except in our prison sysyem where islam reigns supreme as the fastest way to get into a protective gang with a militant system of control.
Johngalt, also, 500 years later is when Mohammad came around. 500 years is not loooooong as you like to say. historically, that is pretty fast.
Army
Really? Other than jehovas witnesses, name the Christian churches that forbid women form school? How many Chritian churches say you have to have two male witnesses to substatiate a charge of rape? How many Chritian churches support child rape?
It's pretty long my friend....pretty long to come up later, borrow books out of the other two great monotheistic religions and say "me too" but with provisions for control and abuse of women and political fascism. pretty long.
Johng...
Well there you go! That is exactly why i say religion has no place in politics. It shows your prejudism.I appreciate you helping in proving my point! Religion is one of the causes of these problems. Being a Christian you seem to hate Muslims, whereas their values are quite similar. You probably were not aware. I am not debating that there is terrorism going on. I am talking only voicing my opinion in the presidential elections! However, noting that Rick Santorum want a "long war" and wants to "eradicate" islam, says one thing... That an "extremist" American president with a religous war on his mind is no different than a terrorist!
In this country, we are Americans....therefore America should be the focus of the debate...not Christianity, not Islam, not Buddhism. I am not picking sides on religion.
sister anita ... America is NOT a theocracy. Idiot. BTW ... Iran is a theocracy. 'Nuff said.
"Today we learned that President Obama killed the Keystone Pipeline project - ANOTHER 20, 000 JOBS GONE. Christian Americans WANT to work."
Tell that to the Repubs and their corporate handlers, who've been sending jobs overseas for years at the American people's expense. If that's the case, then I guess the GOP is also attacking Christian values.
Too easy. Because oil that is drilled here, and even refined here, is not necessarily kept here. It may be intended for shipment out of the country. We don't control where the oil ends up -- oil companies do that. The oil markets are international, not national.
The oil companies don't want you to know that, even if they manage to convince you to drill, baby, drill in your own backyard, it may not actually help you -- or the price you pay -- one little bit.
Because price and supply are global issues. If they can sell our oil to China for more than they sell it to us, they'll sell our oil to China.
A lot of them, judging by what I read in the newspapers.
Mqira,
is prejudism a word?
OH, NOW I SEE THE ELECTION FRAUD THE GOP WAS SO WORRIED ABOUT!
Obama/Biden 2012 Certified winners.
Mqira,
I notice that you are quick to attack perceived Christian militancy. Why are you not equally quick to condemn the radical muslims when they speak out? Is it because they are dangerous and therefore "off-limits" politically? I get it....like most Americans, you feel it is stylish and popular to jump on the liberal band wagon and condemn all things civilized...but "golly gee, if we were to criticize those that are uncivilized, well, they might get mad and do somehting bad to me". So let's just leave them alone and attack people who will do nothing in return. That about sum it up?
johngalt, in 500 AD Christianity did not even have a foothold outside of the Levant yet. It was shunned and oppressed throughout the Roman empire. I would not call that a great religion of the world, at the time of the rise of Islam.
Women in Christianity are not allowed (few exception) to be priests or pastors, not allowed to be the deacons, not allowed to sit on church advisory boards. Women who enter the religious life (namely Catholic) are made to wear clothes that cover the entire body, not unlike those normal Muslim women wear. After divorce or death, Christian men are expected to remarry, Christian women are expect to raise the family left to them and remain single. The Mormon men can marry (religion, not law) multiple women, but the women are not awarded the same right. Do you need me to keep going, or are yous eyes maybe opening just a little to the abuses the Christian religion forces on women, and tells them they have to follow becasue is is God's will.
Go watch some MTV, recite three rap hate songs, bow down to your favorite NFL team and sin no more. We are so screwed in this country.
michigan voter-546572
"BTW, why does the pipeline have to go all the way to Texas? There are refineries much further north, if the oil is to feed the US, why does it have to go all the way to a Texas refinery? So it can be shipped out to other countries through the Gulf?"
To put it simply, the oil from the Alberta Oil Sands is very heavy, and those more northern refineries are unable to process it. The refineries in Texas that this oil would be going to are the only refineries in the U.S. that are able to handle it without clogging up and breaking down.
We are so screwed in this country.
No doubt. We have a guy here (I'm talking about you johngault) who named himself after a fictional character who's goal was convincing people greed and selfishness is a good thing defending a religion that says greed and selfishness is a bad thing.
Why do you hate the teachings of Jesus so much? At least Ayn Rand was honest about how she felt about Christianity.
Anna...
And what would you replace it with?? A 1984 type of society? Wouldn't that be just another religion?
To others on morals...
Based on human individuality, I would say that morals are taught and that religion (aka local beliefs) is the teacher. Can one seperate an organized religion from faith?
It's just a damn good thing that we have these fair elections. Maybe it takes longer than they thought to rig the results, that's why they just now decided who the winner is. ;) No hanging chads this time? LOL Oh that's right the electronic voting machines are always right.
NISL,
Is newt screwing your wife, after all you say he has all the christen values
It is my combining of prejudice and racism...prejudism!!! Which you are... it is quite obviously (is that hatred learned in church)
Oh my....it is quite the contrary, my friend! I find nothing stylish about this. I am just pointing out that neither religion is better than the other...they both have their "ups and downs"....believing in a religion has its "pros and cons" and so does not believing as well. Its what YOU make of it. And just to address your claim of being ""off-limits" politically"....if one slanders muslims...it goes un-noticed, however, if one says (for example) "why hannukah?"...they would be considered anti-semitic! You are way off! Just recently Lowes was blasted by the FFA (A christian entity) for having commercials on a show on TLC, called the American-Muslim. His claim was not what theywere showing (a normal life) but what they were not showing (terrorism)...pretty disgusting for a Christian. See John....it goes both ways. There are terrorists in all religions...some are called extremists.
When there is another world war....would you fight next to me as an american, or would you be my enemy because i have no religious affiliation? I think you know my answer....but i sure dont know yours!
american, morals are not solely the result of religion. Religion is a great vehicle to distribute morals, but not the only "teacher". Flawed argument to claim that. In fact, many in religions the world over, have no "morals". This is not a bash on religion, but there are stories every day of religious people doing horrible things. There are also stories everyday of non-religious people doing very upstanding things.
Faith, as a word, have absolutely nothing to do with religion, organized or not. Faith is the belief in something not proved. Right now many in Boston have faith that the patriots with win the Superbowl, as do those in Baltimore, San Fran, and NY. This is not religion, yet it is faith. So yes, faith can be separated from religion.
Religion on the other-hand, cannot be separated from faith. It is a set of beliefs that have not been proved. It could not exist without faith.just like morals can be, and are often completely void of religion.
I was just kidding, too. But on a personal level, I wouldn't replace it with anything.
I get along pretty well without it. I have no debt and I've never even had a speeding ticket.
Those who say you don't need religion to act morally have it just right. All you need are morals, and I don't need to fear God to act morally. There is a natural law of right and wrong that exists quite independently from God's teaching. Especially a God that is often used as an excuse to justify killing and a whole host of other inhumane actions that I would consider immoral.
It sounds to me like you're afraid that, if someone took away the crutch of religion, you wouldn't be able to walk a straight and narrow path all on your own. To me, that's a sad commentary on human beings.
Yes, that's true, and the other part they're not telling people -- as I just heard an expert discuss -- is that the tar sands oil will not be used here -- it will be exported at higher prices than we pay in the US. In other words, we are being asked to bear the environmental risk so oil companies can make a profit on foreign oil sales.
If you think about it, it's a classic conservative idea.
And it's because of this kind of thinking that we have liberals.
Definition:
adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.
Just to point out that religion has nothing to do with morals! Religion has done many imoral things! While religion is a great thing for some.....morals is pretty much common sense. I thinnk most (if not everyone) knows what is right or wrong!
Army pretty much summed it up! Great post btw!
Anna - Quite a lawyer you are, outside of individual acts just how many church charters condones or promotes child rape?
And yet a quick internet search doesn't support your statement. Lots of opinion blogs. BTW what is a lot? 1? Twenty? fifty?
Who cares? The results of caucuses don't mean anything until the states have their own conventions/assemblies when the delegates are finally chosen.
Thanks mqira. Been following yours and nisl, even Anna all afternoon.
What's this? GOP unable to cipher a winner in Iowa? Iowa now the poster child for 'No State Left Behind'? Will Perry go for a hike and reconsider to re-enter on Friday? Bachmann? Cain? Huntsman would really stand a better chance, and you can just hear Ron Paul squealing.
Poor, Poor, Pitiful Mitt. Gotta love it.
johngalt,
I'd be happy to provide you with the name of an atheist government that has worked (so far, at least). That would be the United States of America. The US governed by a secular (therefore, atheistic) government with a strong history of supporting and defending the separation of church and state. I think you need to learn the difference between religion and faith. So you understand well, I am a Roman Catholic with a strong sense of personal ethics and morality that is informed by, but not dictated by, my Church. I am also a patriotic American who vehemently believes that my Country cannot be free if shacked to my Church and that my Church cannot be free if shackled to the government of my Country. History is chock full of examples where theocratic governments engaged in the most horrible of offenses against those not agreeing with its particular brand of religion. Both government and religion have their appropriate places and they are best not intertwined.
Anna... Religion as a crutch for me? Not hardly. I don't consider "morality" as something that one is born with, but one that is LEARNED, regardless of the source.
Yes, since mankind is not hardwired with morality we will have to muddle along and define for our children what is moral and what is not, even if it may be based on religious teachings. I don't know if you remember a guy named art linkletter but he hosted a show called "kids say the darndest things" that essentially showed that we are morally and educationally neutral at birth.
Mqira...
The operative words in that definition are..
Be it an individual or group (religion or local beliefs) someone defines the rules.
"Morals is pretty much commonsence"? Sorry, neither your definition or your statement...
supports a commonsense argument. Everything we know or think we know is based on what we have learned from others or by first hand experience. Thanks for sharing, though.
Anna - regarding the oil sands, you do realize that the US is already a net exporter of refined oil products and that exports are good for our economy, according to many including obama?
From an economics and environmental standpoint the following needs to be taken into account...
Is it cheaper to transport the material in bulk thru a pipeline to an existing refinery and transportation hub or to construct a refinery on site to process the raw material? Then to distribute the refined product product via truck, rail or another pipeline to a point of sale. Refinery's can cost billions to create from scratch, Just ask brazil....
http://www.energy-daily.com/reports/Cost_of_Brazil-Venezuela_refinery_triples_999.html
From an environmental viewpoint, would you say that we have a reasonable engineering focus on minimizing and addressing pipeline issues? If so, would it be easier to contain a pipeline leak of a thick material or to contain spills of different refined products originating and being distributed from a variety of venues originating from the Canadian/American boarders?
With regards to the XL pipeline directly, do you really believe that the bush and obama administrations didn't already do due diligence in reviewing alternate pipeline routes and potential environmental impacts? It has been under consideration now for just over 3 years. Perhaps the Nebraska governor felt that obamas EPA didn't put enough emphasis on the aquifer.
Sorry anna, profits are not the standard conservative idea, but it is a standard business idea and the concept of generating a profit will give government the revenues to meet reasonable government payrolls and program disbursements.
@Stewgotts: AMEN brother !!
I choose to do the right thing and serve my fellow humanoids out of LOVE, NOT FEAR !!
army, point taken, but perhaps you misunderstood me when I wrote...
I tried to distinguish that morality was not necessarily based on specific religious orders, hence the reference to "local beliefs" and that morality is taught and not hardwired into us.
Care to explain the disconnect here... if faith can be separated from religion how can religion not be separated from faith? Perhaps you meant that the definition of faith doesn't apply only in the context of religion. Regardless, as you say... without faith there can be no religion, and yes I understand your sports analogy concerning faith.
American, thanks for the clarification. Hard to put into print in a paragraph what we want to say properly sometimes. We may be on opposite sides of the religious debate, but I appreciate your willingness to listen and present solid arguments, not mindless garbage like so many on either side. Have a nice day.
Sillyson, and it costs less to build and maintain a pipeline through the entire country than to upgrade a refinery to handle the heavier tar sand oil?
OOPS, I forgot, they don't spend any money to maintain the pipelines, hence the huge spill in the Kalamazoo river just north of me.
The arguments for the pipeline are BS. It's all about making money for the oil companies at the cost of the rest of the population's health and wellness.
Recount. Remember Florida 2000. HAHAHA
Loser?????
"Was it all just a dream....."
Actually, President Elect Gore won Florida in 2000. However, the butterfly ballots were flawed, and Gore lost that count which would have given him about 20,000 more votes. Oh well, The elected President by the people never served.
But remember Job...
In 2000 NO ONE WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT - SCOTUS appointed one....
As I recall, one of the candidate's brother - won't mention any names - was in charge of Florida and used his political position to mess the vote up with all sorts of road-blocks and confusion so that NO accurate count could be made in his state.
Of course, the TEA/GOP party will re-write history and attempt to convince us that we didn't really experience it that way back then...
I say again, "Was it all just a dream....?"
Voting fraud.......GOP bumper sticker "2012". Please, how could 1774 vote be missing?
Jeb Bush could probably tell you.
I'd venture typical wingnut mis-management. JMO
What is "rigged?"
I heard a saying recently (how i have missed his before???)
If voting could change anything,... it would be illegal!
The GOP are so use to "screwing around" with the vote that they cannot even help themselves from doing it to themselves!!! (LOL)
Yes, where they didn't want to allow the military absentee ballots to be counted because they might be for Bush.
Girls, 1774 refers to the number of republican precincts in iowa, not votes.
I knew it! Couldn't understand how Mitt "winning" by eight votes was so easily accepted, while such a small margin in a general election would trigger a recount. Whenever they recount votes, the totals change.
Also should wonder how someone with 6% of votes can can turn around and win??? Especially Rick "Santorum" Santorum! I think it was completely rigged to get the attention of Ron Paul.
I know sounds far fetched, but nothing is impossible in this election!
Amy---this may explain why the Republicans don't trust elections and are always seeing voter fraud--when they run them by themselves, the results are screwed up.
Oh boy! I won! I won!
Exactly what does this change in the minds of voters?
Wow, between Perry dropping out and this conclusion, makes for great entertainment. Would love to be a fly on the wall in the Romney camp this morning, not a good week so far, eh Mitt?
Gingerbread,
Me too. They are most likely going to plan C.
Job1...plan C....cant wait to see what that is, they'll be spinning like a dervish, it really turns things on their head.
Sure is a shame that all this "supposed" infighting is defusing any future obama attacks on whomever becomes the nominee. I will be laughing all the way to the polls come november.
Regardless of the count in Iowa or any other State, Romney is still a loser and will remain so after the election.
Obama in 2012.
Rock on Obama!! he's got my vote again in 2012.
Yepper, ABO 2012.
As Rick Perry would say, "Oops!"
Hey, Smiffy, where are you? I thought you said nobody cared who won Iowa! Looks like you were wrong because Santorum sure seems to care!
Hooray for you Rick...now go home...
The Republican Party of Iowa announced Romney
the winner with a 5 vote margin and now with a much larger margin says it’s a tie.
What is influencing the Republican Party of Iowa, can it possibly be the Mormon
Mafia.
maybe... along with Rove, Murdoch,Norquist, Limbaugh, - need I go on?
Well, Rush should be discredited....he is a drug addict! Oh wait, they are sold by PhRma...those legal drugs are called medicines....
mqira: the government is the biggest drug pusher out there.
I would settle on anyone of them rather than what we have now... What has Obama and Michelle done to cut back on anything, like they asked us to do? He is spending and printing more money than all the other presidents combined and liberals just sit back and talk about Bush, all the while ignoring what Obama is doing. I really dont care who runs, black, white, republican, democrat, all i want is a conservative in office and the socialist out.
Posting is now rather magical.. try to post in one place and you "magically" wind up in another entirely different story.
You can't always get what you want.
Jim, not really so magical.
So when Romney finished 8 votes ahead, he won, but when Santorum pulled in front by 34 votes, it's a "virtual tie". Got it.
That one had me scratching my head too.
The Republican Party of Iowa announced Thursday that Rick Santorum finished ahead of Mitt Romney in its Jan. 3 caucuses, meaning the contest resulted in a virtual tie between the two candidates.
An utterly ridulous statement......kind of like....If Ron Paul wins, it is irrelevant.
How are we able to trust the media and the elections at all,... anymore?........Just sayin!
This was a caucus to elect county delegates, who will then vote for state delegates in June, for those delegates to go on to the Republican nomination convention. Santorum 29,839, Romney 29,805, and Paul 26,036 all 3 received the same number of delegates which IS A TIE in number of delegates, no matter what the vote count was. There are 28 total delegates from Iowa. Check out "thegreenpapers.com/P12/IA-R" or Iowa Republican Delegation, etc. Now that Perry has dropped out, and who else by June, those delegates will switch, and none of the delegates are REQUIRED to vote for the candidate their county voted as the winner anyway.
SO why have the Iowa caucuses then? I know. It's fun to watch.
This is really good stuff!!! Mitt has to sit down and really wonder why NO ONE likes him!!! Remember in 2004 when we Democrats looked for the best candidate to send against Bush? We choose Kerry because all of the pundits said that Dean couldn't win and what happened? Kerry lost because we all voted against Bush while the people who voted Republican voted "FOR" Bush. The same thing will happen this election. I am voting FOR Obama. Not against anyone. Mitt can't excite his base and there is no one in the field now who can. True conservatives will stay home and start to groom Christie or Rubio or any of the other rising stars they have for 2016.
OBAMA 2012!!!!
The Dean comparison is a good one, because in both cases what is most interesting and disturbing is the way the media is wholly complicit in packaging the facts in such a manner to marginalize the "fringe" candidate (whether the left-wing Dean or the right-wing Santorum) in favor of the middle-of-the-road, big-business friendly, Wall-Street certified candidate. (Media is, after all, very big business.) Would we trust our political news if it was written and published by General Motors and Exxon? Of course not; but NBC/Universal is just another such company with their own vested economic interests that must be protected at all costs, even at the cost of the truth. And the truth here is Santorum won Iowa, and it's more than a little fishy that this fact only comes out after he's been declawed in New Hampshire, and after Romney has already been celebrated as the "first GOP candidate to win both Iowa and New Hampshire". Where are the mea culpas? What else is going to come out after all the other candidates have dropped out of the race?
Scott Walker will be available by then after Wisconsin kicks him out as governor. Kinda like Mitt, nobody likes Walker either.
Anyone else notice that Santorum defends some of his really questionable decisions as though because "HE" decided and that makes him right and everyone else wrong? Obama is great for doing the same or blaming some dead person for why he is right and the rest of the entire world wrong. Santorum has always been the weakest of all the GOP candidates.
It's no wonder the repubs. think there's voter fraud they can't even trust their own party.
30 days and out doesn't count.
How many ballots are the GOP going to try and hide in November?
Not enough to make up for the number the Democrats are going to make up with fraudulent absentee ballots and illegal voters.
When the day dawns that we have nothing else to turn to but a hate-monger in a dorky sweater vest we are in the deepest of doo-doo.
Go, Rick, Go!!!
...yeah right back home.
How about this... it doesn't matter if a few precincts are missing since their votes don't actually count anyway. The votes for the state aren't split by candidate from the caucuses, but by delegates from each district who aren't bound to vote in the same manner as the caucus voters, so whatever. Oh well. Let's move on. A bigger issue, in my opinion, is the fact that Iowa which means so little to the rest of the country most of the time gets to vote first every time.
How come the press isn't reporting the reasons why Santorum lost his Senate seat in PA by 18%? He acts like he is Mr. Western PA hardworking guy but he doesn't even live in PA. When he was senator, he had an address for an abandoned house but lived in a million dollar mansion in Virginia. He had the school district where the empty house was in Pennsylvania pay $100,000 to cyber school his kids. The real hardworking tax payers of PA still haven't recouped their money.
Talk about people shoving religion...does anyone really pay attention to the religious views of this candidate...I feel that the candidates religious view should be a personal decision, and not EVER enter into politics. If you don't believe in birth control, teach that to your children or people that want to listen. Don't make that decision for others that don't have that same ideology. I don't care if you are Catholic, Mormon, or anything else. I just want the person who will do the best job for the country (which includes all religions or none) I want to also interject that the claim of Muslims and the treatment of women..having been raised in a Fundamental Baptist church, no women will be ordained or hold an office over a man..just saying
Where are all those missing ballots? Let the cheating begin.
How many ballots are the GOP going to try and hide in November?
You mean like all those dead people that voted for Obama last time around? How about all those Democrats in Upstate NY that are now being prosecuted for voter fraud? And how can we forget Obama's own personal PAC, ACORN!
I'm guessing those eight districts were ones won by Ron Paul but couldn't make it under scrutiny in a recount so they just said they didn't know what happened to the ballots or that they accidentally got thrown away because many of them had the same handwriting on them since some of those Ron Paul people use to work for Acorn. That must be why some of those Ron Paul voters say if it isn't Ron Paul I'm voting for Obama.
What....!? Repods showing up with 'missing' votes in the 12th hour.... Again!! Enough of them squirting Santorum all over my Constitution. This has been going on since 2000. First they screw each other and then do the same stuff to the democrats. The only question now is which one will die in a convenient plane crash? GOP'ers won't be able to hide this voter fraud because nobody is voting for the Newt! Women hate the Newt! Children hate the Newt! Men hate the Newt! I don't think Karl and Rupert can pull this off like they did with Shrub, Jr. to remove Ross Perot or the airing of 5 armchair warriors kicking a Vietnam Veteran using 'Swiftboat Veterans' for lies. I just don't see it working. Write your congress person and demand that Rupert Murdoch be tried under the RICO Act for crimes against the victims and thier families of 911. That will put a large dent in the GOP propaganda machine and maybe we'll have a REAL American election rather then the Aussie by way of England to America for the best Tax Rate who Bush Sr. hooked up with Cheney and Rove and caused the ugly face of Fascism to rear it's shrub like head in the White House and the warmongering began.
All this would have been avoided if they had counted them all that day!
That's right, but then again in a lot of Democrat Districts they always have extra votes that show up the next day.
MULLIGAN!
Sister Anita.. What the hell does an oil pipeline have to do with Christianity? The pipeline is only about money. The number of jobs is not 20,000 but 6,000 and all temporary. The oil coming down the pipeline is to go to Texas refineries and the products will be shipped overseas. There is simply no market in the U.S. for more oil products. That is why 70 billion worth of oil products are being sold overseas out of the U.S. No way would any oil company produce more gasoline to sell in the U.S. which would lower the price of gasoline. You are simply another stupid rightwing Christian nut who has no grey matter.
As opposed to you, another stupid left-wing nut with no grey matter.
Please tell us again how a pipeline that will require expansion of refineries in Texas and require more employees to operate means "all temporary" jobs. You libs need to get out of your own echo chamber once in awhile and visit the real world. But, hey, why let facts get in the way of your dishonest narrative, right?
The U.S. State Department calculated last year that the underground pipeline would add 5,000 to 6,000 U.S. jobs. One independent review of Keystone puts that number even lower, with the Cornell University Global Labor Institute finding that the pipeline would add only 500 to 1,400 temporary construction jobs.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505123_162-57361212/keystone-pipeline-how-many-jobs-really-at-stake/
http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2011/12/14/143719155/just-how-many-jobs-would-the-keystone-pipeline-create
your are right jake ... those were the stats I researched as well. As usual, as with most Republicans, you just can't fix stupid or unreasonable (in the literal sense of the word). Hopefully, the Republican Party is on its way to becoming completely irrelevant and largely extinct.
Voter Fraud, both parties are corrupt to the core and there will be no change of substance from either party on any issue. The political class doesn't care what the voter thinks or wants. If you want change, vote Ron Paul. Otherwise it really doesn't matter who you vote for from either party.