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Updated 1:35 p.m.
FLORENCE, S.C. -- Mitt Romney estimated Tuesday that he pays about a 15 percent effective tax rate on his earnings, a much lower rate than many middle-class Americans pay.
Facing increasing pressure from his GOP rivals, particularly former House Speaker Newt Gingrich and Texas Gov. Rick Perry, to release his tax records, Romney seemed to commit to release some returns after having been somewhat cagey on the topic at last night's presidential debate.
If and when those records are released, Romney suggested they would show he pays about 15 percent of his earnings to the government.
"It’s probably closer to the 15 percent rate than anything,” Romney said in response to a question about his effective tax rate. “Because my last 10 years, I’ve — my income comes overwhelmingly from investments made in the past, rather than ordinary income, or rather than earned annual income.”
Romney's tax rate has been subject to much speculation since the multi-millionaire former CEO told reporters months ago that he would comply with all financial disclosure laws, but had no intention of releasing his tax returns as has been traditional among presidential nominees since the 1970s.
Since December, much of the fire directed toward Romney on this issue had come from Democrats, but last week, Gingrich said he would release his returns this Thursday, and called on Romney to do the same. At last night's debate in Myrtle Beach, Perry also tweaked Romney, saying he should release his tax returns publicly, before the nomination process concluded.
"Mitt, we need for you to release your income tax so the people of this country can see how you made your money. And I think that’s a fair thing. Listen, here’s the real issue for us, as Republicans, we cannot fire our nominee in September," Perry said last night. "We need to know now. So I hope you’ll put your tax records out there this week so the people of South Carolina can take a look and decide if, you know, we’ve got a flawed candidate or not."
Romney hedged last night on whether he'd release those records, but appeared to be more definitive on Tuesday.
"We looked at prior races for president, and in prior races for president the tradition has been that the nominee releases his tax returns in tax season, in April," Romney said. "And I know that if I'm the nominee, people will want to see the most recent year, and see what happened in the most recent year and what things are up to date and so they'll want to see the tax returns that come out in April, so rather than sort of have multiple releases of tax returns, why-- we'll wait until the tax returns for the most recent year are completed, then release them."
The tax issue is an especially sensitive issue for the Romney campaign, given the former Massachusetts governor's status as the wealthiest of the presidential candidates. He is estimated to be worth around $200 million, according to financial disclosure documents. Much of that wealth came as a result of Romney's work for Bain Capital, the private equity firm he had cofounded.
Federal tax rates vary from 10-35 percent of income for most Americans, with state and municipal taxes adding to the burden. Given Romney's wealth, he would be in the highest bracket, if he were taxed on earned income.
But Romney pays a much lower rate because most of his income comes from investments, which are taxed at lower rates. Warren Buffett, who also derives much of his income from investments, has said this is unfair.
The tax burden someone like Romney would face cuts to the core of the fiscal debate that has roiled Washington over the past year. President Obama has called on the wealthy to shoulder a larger share of the tax burden, especially since they benefit from a more favorable tax rate on earnings gleaned from nontraditional sources of income, like investments, dividends or interest.
Romney addressed that argument to an extent, noting his opposition to Gingrich's proposal to eliminate all capital gains taxes.
"You’d have individuals – the Warren Buffett argument -- Warren Buffett, Bill Gates would probably pay no taxes at all," he said. "Today they probably pay 15 percent. Very high-income people of this country pay roughly 15 percent of taxes if their resources are coming from investments and under their plan it would go to zero. I just don’t think that’s the right course."
Romney provided no indication as to what level of taxes he thought the wealthy should pay on their investment-related income, but said he thought savings in the tax code should be directed toward providing tax relief for the middle class, and lowering corporate income taxes.
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THAT should go over wel! lol
Don't forget - Willard is an ordinary guy just like 99% of America! *wink wink*
This gives you an understanding of Romney's politics, and if he were to win the presidency, no matter what else happened, he would be defending his "right" to low taxes before all else. The Republican party's sole purpose is to preserve wealth at all costs.
I'd like to be that kind of ordinary.
Is this what "ordinary" rich folks sound like when they are talking about their jobs?
Well, when I was a corporate raider... Well, when I was Governor...
Except for the ignorant, the ones who seem to have no clue as to the difference between how capital gains are taxed and why - and ordinary income.
Might be a good time for those Americans to finally grow up and get a clue how economics works, how capital created the great country we had before 3 years of Obama.
I don't recall Willard ever saying anything except that he has been very fortunate ... his whole life.
Obama is the multi-millionaire with a 10:00 - 3:30 schedule, Obama is the one that is a 1%er that projects hinself as a 99% (well at least to the 99%ers.)
Nice job of fault projection though.
Now you see (again) the opportunity missed to reform the tax code. Remove all exemptions, tax all income at the same rate (earnings, dividends, cap gains), and lower the rates.
The President paid an effective rate of 27% last year. Remove the exemptions and raise that to around 30% and we'll have new revenue. Also, remove Corporation Tax completely and tax the dividends received by the individual. This will remove a large amount of lobbying money and be pro-market.
If you have a lowest rate of 8% and a top rate of 30% (for everything, no more SS or medicare taxes) with no exemptions that will increase revenues and be completely transparent as to how much the government is spending.
Oh come on now Crusty Girly_Bits......I know you cannot be THAT much of a politcal hack....can you?
Obama
Reid
Pelosi
Trumpka
Corzine
Hell, even my union president - $360,000/year
all part of the 1% - yet they, and only they are able to "understand" the plight of the poor??.....lol....sometimes you looney libs can be sooo dilusional if you actually believe this or just hacks if you don't.....get real
If Brian Williams is saying your name every night....you're part of the "1%"
Me too Devie - especially is Willard should some how win!
This is what can can look forward to;
I wonder what the rate would have been if he didn't have the unconstitutional tax deduction for the down payment on his future heavenly residence. That's a pretty stiff 10% annual minimum payment of your income for LDS types.
...and the Democratic Party's sole purpose is to destroy wealth at all costs?
Politics of envy :)
15% is the investment tax rate. Of course the income tax rate paid on that money was much much higher. Liberals just can't seem to figure that part out.
And besides, we should have poor and unsuccessful people running the country. Poor at least until they figure out how to make money on inside investments while they are in Congress.
America - where the government controls the people and wall street controls the government.
We want our country back!
bob - Where are you getting this bizarre "information?"
Funny I just read about the most impoverished counties and there most if not all are in RED states controlled by the GOP, don't these poor people realize that their great GOP leaders are the reason why they live below the standard of most Americans ........... Keep voting like a sheep but don't complain about Jobs and Health care because you are all to blame, instead of looking around you all just sit there and point fingers and whine, it's you that keep the GOP hanging around like Vultures, Oh and guess where the lowest minimum wages are, Yep, the RED states again take the prize for stupid ....
.
Politics of envy indeed! How about the politics of fairness and a level playing field? Remember "Without labor, there can be no capital." (T. Roosevelt). Ponder that republicans!
The best tax system we could have would be a gross income (ALL sources of income, including alimony) tax with the following tax rates: NO TAX on the first $25K income, 15% on all income above $25k up to $250K, 30% on all income above $250K up to $750K, and 45% on all income over $750K. Gross income means absolutely NO deductions, credits, etc. It also eliminates capital gains taxes, estate taxes, etc. The only other federal taxes would be the gas tax, SS, and Medicare.
Romney is just trying to buy some time to fudge this year's return so it won't appear too outragious. "Quick.. how can I pay more?"
I'm sure a truer picture would emerge if we had a look at the last couple of years.
Rick-3608408 - Well said.
GOP million lies told are beginning to unravel themselves.
1 vulture capitalism
2 corporation are people
3 15% tax rate for the rich. in some cases, they don't pay at all.
4 Govt. is bad for the people but good for politicians, the rich and corporations.
5 When you complain of the imbalance in the system, you're envious of the rich.
6 The rich also live on welfare, tax cuts.
And this is just January.
The real question for you devie is - why are you not?
I'm with bob - how educational for you libbies - getting to learn about capital gains, passive income vs regular income.
Not like anyone around here is particularly young. By this time you all really ought to have amassed a steady stream of passive income.
Much less work, and much better tax rates.
Bye the way gang, any of you all know who created the capital gain rates?
Well Anti-trust, that seems like a very good idea! I like that and I am one of those "liberals" who supposedly are lazy and don't want to pay anything.
anti-trust, so in your formula, Warren Buffet and Mitt would pay no taxes and a bus driver single mom widower with 5 kids would pay 15%. Excellent. No capital gains taxes or any kind of allowances for number of dependents indeed.
Geralyn, you realize that all that would happen is that people would be paid in nontaxable investments and stock options at the top and the people at the bottom would all of a sudden see their taxes rise. But of course, this is about you feeling insecure about being called lazy or liberal.
He needs time to cook the books; he thinks April will be good. I would like to see what he filed last year. By the time that he cooks the books, it will be like going from pro-choice to pro-life.
anti-trust; that proposal would destroy the houseing market, middle class, and would be a welcome by the very rich. ; that would mean a family earning 50K per year would have a tax rate of over 40% (your health insurance deductions , your mortgage deductions, your personal exemption and if you got sick, would put every middle class family in bankruptcy.)
Rick,
What's even more funny is Red states are the largest welfare states. They receive many times back what they pay in taxes.
it's actually blue states that pay more in taxes than they get back.
And go figure, it's the red states (GOP) most against welfare...go figure!
This is a non issue.
We all pay 0% to 15% on capital gains and dividends. We all pay 0% fed tax on muni bonds. This is nothing special, not a special carve out for wealthy of Mitt. It is the rate we all pay. Lower income earners pay 0% on this, so you could make the argument it actually favors lower income types...where higher earners pay 15% across the board on this type of income.
He gives his earned income away- else his rate would be higher. We going to blast someone for donating income to charity?
@ Rick Funny I just read this. Looks like 6 of the ten have Democratic governors and 4 have Republican. I think both sides need to do a better job of tightening the belt.
http://247wallst.com/2012/01/11/ten-states-that-cannot-pay-their-bills/3/
spanky- you're doing a good job trying to keep up the lies. Income is Income passive or regular.
How many poor or middle class person do you know have that extra to invest in stock mkt.
You pay as you earn.
I pay about 30% (15% for Social Security and Medicare counting the "employer contribution" and another 15% for federal income tax) and would be willing to pay a tad more if it would help my country.
Mitt Romney pays HALF what I pay (15% total, counting all Social Security, Medicare, and fedral income tax contributions, including the employer "match" on SS and Medicare) and tries to weasel out of even that little.
Mitt Romney is an unabashed, unpatriotic crook.
Capital gains are income, tax them as such. Ever since the rate was lowered to 15% in 2001 we haven't exactly seen the great boom even in the stock market. What we saw was a liquidity crash followed by an even larger liquidity crash followed by a widening income gap and increasing poverty.
You improve the economy by increasing demand, not narrowing the monied class. Feudal economics didn't work then and hasn't worked since.
In what respect? Debt perhaps? That would be the "RED" states of New York, California, and Illinois. All with magnificent minimum wages.
JoAnnaSmith1
15% is the investment tax rate. Of course the income tax rate paid on that money was much much higher. Liberals just can't seem to figure that part out.
=======
.........Well, I'm no liberal, but I can't figure it out either. 15% is the long term CAPITAL GAINS rate, which is an income tax. So what is this other income tax paid on that money of which you speak? If you buy AT&T stock for $5K, and sell it a year and one day later for $8K, you get a long term capital gain of $3K, which is taxed at 15%. What other income tax is there, you seem to know something no one else does.
By the way, Romney says most of his income is from investments, "my income comes overwhelmingly from some investments made in the past, whether ordinary income or earned annually,". Well, investment income is not ordinary or earned income, it's either L/T capital gains taxed at 15%, or short term capital gains taxed as ordinary income, that's why they invented Schedule D. Seems that Romney is one that you are thinking about who can't figure that part out about the taxes.
Which is why I am against Obama and the Democrats raising the Federal Income Tax Rate, currently at 33% for people like Romney.
Because if you raise it to 50%, Romney's tax rate and Buffets will remain at 15%. It will NOT effect the uber rich. It will raise S-Corps Tax rates, and take money away from Small business.
If you want to raise Romney's tax rates, and Buffets you have to address capital gains, Where I believe the argument should be. And I would be open to supporting that cause.
@ Joanna.
I don't believe that the minimum wage policy is hindering the states you pointed out. I pin that mostly on pension benefits bankrupting the states. The state unions put their efforts towards electing Democrats, so the Democrats and negotiate contracts with the unions, using the taxpayers money. And somehow, we didn't see the ill effect of pension costs coming?
No wonder the Treasury has no money. The 1% get to pay less taxes than people who make a fraction of what they do. Middle income people can't support the entire country with what they are decreasingly making. And with so many people out of work and forced to work minimum wage jobs, of course there is no revenue coming into the treasury. According to Republicans, the answer is to cut social security and medicare so as not to ask people like themselves to pay their rightful share.
I kinda figured Romney would agree only to produce this upcoming return, so he could instruct his accountants not to take advantage of loopholes and such. Let's see past years. If Obama had to produce his birth certificate, I don't see why Romney can't produce his tax returns.
Maybe he's afraid we'd be so envious that he'd lose the election.
But only the poor and middle class pay 15% for social security and Medicare! The wealthiest families in America, like Mitt Romney, pay a paltry 0.1%.
And now he wants to rob us of the social security contributions we've paid in our whole lives, and distribute the proceeds to his rich pals in the form of 'tax cuts'.
Mitt Romney: always a liar (just ask Santorum and Gingrich), and now a thief, too.
Since when is Newt Gingrich or the rest of the field asking for his returns Liberals?
Nah, we should have the super rich and elite run the country. It worked so well during the Dark Ages.
Except he doesn't PAY even HALF of it!
Mitt Romney is an unabashed, unpatriotic crook.
No, he isn't. Stealing involves breaking the law, Romney (and others in his financial situation) don't break the law, they change it to benefit themselves personally. You may not find that ethical but that doesn't make it illegal.
"Only little people pay taxes," Leona Helmsley
Jeeessssuussss MSNBC. Can you get a friggin editor that can do their job. This doesn't even make sense without a proper comma. Mother of everything holy.
So if you believe Romney is ignorant on knowing his tax rates, are you saying he is cheating on his taxes?
LMAO........that means he paid more than GE.......Obama's Jobs Czar is CEO.........Jeff Immelt. Onbama's own staff member has sent 1000's of jobs overseas and avoids federal taxes with loophole......;.now there is a unpatriotic crook inside the WH..........one of many.
Suffice it to say that my tax rate is right about 30% and I make LESS than $75,000 a year and I have to pay taxes every year.
Romney makes millions, he claims 15% is deducted, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that he gets every penny BACK via tax credits and tax loopholes! I would NOT be surprised to learn that Romney gets a tax REFUND every year while I pay, and pay, and pay.
I wanna puke!
Republicans = Tax Cuts for the Rich, Pay Cuts for Working Americans!
Obama / Biden 2012
JoAnnaSmith1
In what respect? Debt perhaps? That would be the "RED" states of New York, California, and Illinois. All with magnificent minimum wages.
==========
Rick should have posted his source.
Check this website report. Notice which state get more Fed money back than they send in, it's interesting. Slick McConnells state of KY gets back $1.51 for each dollar sent in. Alaska get back $1.84, and they want to secede! What idiots!.
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/11/fed-tax-sentspent-by-state/
The point is there is so much hypocrisy. Those screaming the loudest about large government and spending cuts are those sucking the hardest on the government tit!
Why NOT pay the same tax,s all around.!! Everyone pays the same.!! But no I,m a Dem. and I,m against wealthly people , I dont want anyone to get wealthly.!!! Alan from N.J. thats statement about The Dems. dont want anyone to get wealthly has to be the most dumbest statement I have ever herd, just another repubilican talking out his A**.!!!
@ Common Sense.
That is exactly my point. You and everyone else is hammering the rich for paying a very small tax rate. Adjusting their income tax rate, will keep their tax rates the same. Basically, they do not draw an income, therefore do not pay income taxes. (Or the % of salary pales in comparison to the % they earn on capital gains taxes).
If you want Romney to pay a higher %, then go after the tax rates on the taxes he pays. Not the tax rates on income he doesn't have.
What in the world are you talking about?
He pays 15% of his income in taxes. PERIOD. Not 15% PLUS income tax; not 15% PLUS Social Security and Medicare; just 15% plus NOTHING!
Everybody is good at something. Some people are good at making music. Others are good at mathematics. Some are good at making money.
And some are good at governing.
Mitt Romney is good at two things: making money and lying.
He is not now, never has been, and never will be good at governing.
Mittens want to lower corporate income taxes? Zero is already pretty LOW. Ever stop to look at what they can write off? The game is already fixed and it's been fixed for corporate America. They are really just getting greedier every election cycle.
The point is there is so much hypocrisy. Those screaming the loudest about large government and spending cuts are those sucking the hardest on the government tit!
It is fairly ironic when you put it like that.
And Warren Buffet?
You have no idea what the difference is between income taxes and capital gains taxes, do you?
Apparently that's not true, at least in your case.
And it should be noted that the financial problems of NJ were inherited by the current Governor from the corrupt-a-crat Corzine. Notice their numbers are on the rebound.
Here's what Adam Smith had to say on this VERY subject, in his book, The Wealth of Nations.
I think it is quite apparent who Smith would NOT be voting for this fall.
oh, and continuing in that vein, he also wrote this -
AG- sounds like you need to get you a good tax/financial planner.
Pen - what lies? The politicians wrote the code [you remember Rangle, don't you?]. They set the rates.
Any one can invest. For some it might entail giving up a few Lattes, or full data cell plans, or $200 per month cable bills, but if you are not, and you have any of those things, then prepare for a wicked bad retirement.
Hey,
Give Romney credit. At least he paid his taxes. Now lets talk about Charlie Rangel and oh yes, is it Gietner???
Both should have been thrown in jail!!!!!!
Well, when he was at Bain Capital, they absconded with $38 MILLION in tax dollars just for one factory they bought and the factory ended up closing its doors anyway.
No Mitt, I would like to see your last years return, not the return where you tell you tax preparers to make sure you pay a respectable amount of tax. What did you actually pay last year and the year before.
Hey anti-trust re: alimony ... can you say double taxation? The payor is taxed and the payee as well. Also, buried within some deep reform bill that Bush passed, those that receive child support and alimony via State systems are already paying an annual fee that goes straight to the government. Re: Mitt. Good luck with getting anything truthful. I'm pretty Sure Jon Huntsman received a call from the "prophet" to step-down in order to have the front-running Mormon have a better chance.
JoAnnaSmith1
So if you believe Romney is ignorant on knowing his tax rates, are you saying he is cheating on his taxes?
==========
Good God, this is like some kind of retort I'd expect from a 6th grader in the schoolyard at recess. I didn't say Romney didn't know his tax rates, only that he doesn't appear to know the difference among investment, ordinary and earned income, as per his own statement, he obviously knows he's right around a 15% effective tax rate, he just seems naive or ignorant about the correct terminology and how the tax system works in trying to explain that tax rate, which I find troublesome for a man in his position.
And who the hell said anything about cheating, where did you pull that one out from!!! Do you drink?
Where is MSNBC's coverage showing that Ron Paul has just as much chance of beating Obama that Romney has.
CNN Poll: Obama tied with Romney & Paul in November showdowns
Romney is DONE. The GOP would vote for Bernie Maddoff if he were their nominee so it won't matter to 43% of the vote but for Dems and especially Independents he's toast. As long as unemployment stays right now where it is or get's better Obama wins especially when this is made public.
Let's take in consideration the Republican Party's list of 'accomplishments' in the past few years.
I'm sure that the Tax Avoider in Chief, Mitt Romney approves this amazing list of goals and recent accomplishments:
Keep millions out of work in the hope that the hated Obama loses his job.
Pass laws to bring more immigrants into the U.S. to take American jobs.
Reward corporations that move American jobs off shore.
Take from the middle-class to give to the wealthy.
Start wars to enrich defense contractors, oil companies and politicians.
Steal individual constitutional rights, and bestow them on corporations.
Sanction unlimited imprisonment without charge or trial.
Advocate torture.
Refuse to punish, or even to regulate the Wall Street crooks who caused the economic collapse.
Remove clean air and water protections in the name of corporate greed.
Work to repeal the affordable health care law so that HMOs can increase profits.
Prevent college students, the elderly, the poor and minorities from voting.
Spend like there is no tomorrow, while pretending to be concerned about deficits.
Dumb down America by reducing and degrading educational opportunities.
Make war on the reproductive rights of women.
Deny that climate change is a problem which must be addressed.
Revive racial and religious prejudices.
Denigrate anyone who disagrees with us.
The list goes on and on.
You should be proud GOP members!
And, these are the reasons why I am proud to no longer belong to the Republican Party!
My tax rate is twice what he pays. Hell, if he (and the rest of the 1%) paid the same 30% that I pay in taxes we could pay down the deficit in a couple of years. They'd never feel it. At some point it's all just numbers on a page.
But let me say something about my income and my tax rate. My wife and I have a combined household income of a little less than $100K. We have a modest home, about 1400 square feet, which we have lived in for 31 years. Her Toyota Van is a 2005 and my Yaris is a 2007. Not fancy, not new, but good reliable cars. Her car is paid for, our house and my car will pay off this year. We've been happily married for 33 years come next month and our daughter (who has a Master's Degree and was her senior class Valedictorian) is doing well and recently married.
That puts me ahead of 90% of the rest of the world. I'd argue it puts me ahead of at least half of the wealthiest 1% in this country. So, I don't have anything to complain about. I'm doing just fine. But that gap between rich and poor is widening and there is no end in sight. We need to do something to make sure the American dream is available to all Americans.
I'm not talking about a "hand-out" but "helping hands". Those who have can afford to pay a bit more should do so, so that those who have-not can have a chance to better themselves and the lives of their children.
I don't think we get there by electing a multi-milionaire member of a powerful and secretive religion with 15 homes and heaven only knows how many cars, boats and so on, to be the President of these United States.
15%, unbelievable.
Obama/Biden 2012
Good grief! You STILL don't get it?
Mitt Romney's income comes from CAPITAL GAINS. Why should he pay any LESS in taxes than people who actually have to WORK for their income.
Read Post #1.31. Roadhouse worked it out for you, giving an example that shouldn't 'tax' anyone's arithmentic skills. If you think Romney pays more than $450 on that $3,000 he made in the example, show us what you think it is, because he most certainly does not pay $450 in captial gains income taxes plus another $1050 in income tax on top of that. The $450 tax replaces the $1050 tax that he would pay if he were actually paid $3,000 for his labor.
Romney does NOT pay captial gains taxes PLUS income taxes.
No Mitt, I would like to see your last years return, not the return where you tell you tax preparers to make sure you pay a respectable amount of tax. What did you actually pay last year and the year before.
It doesn't work that way. You don't get to choose to treat your long term capital gains as ordinary income. I guess you could, but you would be cheating on your taxes and any CPA who saw the return would know instantly that Romney was trying to hide something.
Most of Romney's income comes from K1s generated by partnerships/S Corps and other flow throughs. Unless the partnerships are willing to phony up K1s, which I doubt, Romney would not have an easy time paying taxes at a rate comparable with "normal" people. That is why, I assume, he is admitting his effective tax rate is close to 15%.
Isn’t Obama wealthy?
Maybe not at Romney’s level but he’s very wealthy for someone that has never held a job.
Why would anyone blame Romney for paying taxes at a 15% rate if that's what the tax laws allow? This is why conservatives are pushing for tax reform. Although once you start eliminating deductions the recipient class (aka zero liability voter) might actually have to start paying some federal income tax and the liberals don't want to upset the voting block.
Stop, and what have you been doing while Obama runs the largest organization on the planet? Posting on blogs?
One wonders what Mitt has been doing during his 7 year foray into complete unemployment.
Yeah - it is important to understand this mindset. People like Romney believe that they should only pay 15% because they are better (more important) than you. People like Romney want to end Social Security and Medicare because it is unimportant to them, and if we switch to private savings and HMOs, they can take a bigger chunk.
Do not believe for one second in their righteous "we did it through private means" message. Remember Hermain Cain "suspended" rather than ended his campaign so that he could collect millions in tax payer money. Romney's Bain Capital ripped off pension plans and let the government spend millions back-filling. These guys are not welfare kings, they are welfare Emperors. They suck up tax payer money whenever they can, make sure their taxes are lower than regular people, and they fool us with 24-hour a day propaganda to believe that somehow they are more righteous. They are just really good scam artists, and we who do the work of America are the victims.
History proves that when capital gains taxes are this incredibly low, all we end up with are bubble economies...
this reminds me of groupon and and how they've raised over a billion in capital...but havent yet managed to figure out how to turn a profit, on the actual business model.
Meanwhile, the guy who fronted the first million to start this thing up...has walked away with 300 million for all his "hard work"...
and this is the "norm", not the exception...
no doubt, we'll be reading about the death of groupon in a few years...and all the investors that came in on the second round, will be left holding empty bags.
Wanna know how the company I work for uses investment money to "grow business"? we go and buy leaders in our industry, and then we slash their staff in half (usually) and consider that "growth".
We didnt creat any jobs that didnt already exist, simply eliminated some...so the shareholders can make more money.
THIS IS OUR NEW REALITY...
you're a fool if you think this is making america better, and the ultra rich NEED to have 15% tax rates on their "hard work"...so they can "create more jobs"
Sorry, at this point...I would prefer our govt hiring people to paint bridges, over rich people gobbling up small companies and calling that "growth" in the lamest sense of the word.
Lets ask Charlie Rangle about the correct terminology for how the tax system works. Other than the part that he thinks says he doesn't have to pay.
You're a real piece of work RH. You expect everyone running for president to recite the tax code on demand in the correct terminology. 72,536 pages of it. You certainly have high qualifications.
If Romney is paying an effective tax rate 15% of his earnings (read paycheck income, not investment invome) in strictly federal income tax (not SS or medicare), that is a heck of a lot more than I pay. To the poster who said (American Girl) they pay 30% on an income of less than $75K per year, I would be curious to know if that is the effective federal tax rate (again, not SS and medicare) that is calculated after all deductions are taken.
I find that hard to believe since I make right around $100K per year, an my effective federal income tax rate is always around 4.5% to 5% each year. I do not feel I do anything special to have a tax rate as such. I own a house, have student loans I am paying on, and have 4 kids. Pretty standard deductions.
Tom
Baby, conservatives are pushing for Mitt to pay zero and for the desperately poor to pay more. God forbid Republicans upset their donors by having them pay taxes at all (corporate welfare recipient class).
The sick thing is that if all goes according to plan on their "tax reform" Mitt Romney will receive Social Security entirely paid for by the tax-paying lower class that doesn't have the benefit of income you don't actually have to work for.
Just wait til the returns are released (if he has the balls). This issue will follow him into the elections in November, and all the attempts by the corporate hacks and poor misguided souls who advocate against their own interests will be for naught. The OWS movement will be all over this and the people already are concerned about the disparity of wealth in this country. The right is pretty nervous right now.
For the record, being concerned about income/tax/opportunity disparity does not mean we hate/envy the rich. It means we are tired of the special perks they get and tired of the influence on our government. Better figure it out, teapubs, before it's too late. It will be hard to explain the policies (more tax breaks for the elite while cutting middle/poor class programs), and it will be interesting to watch them squirm.
@ alberto_ny
She just wants all of the money to go to someone else who is not as fortunate.
Wow, we have Romney admitting he only pays 15% tax rate and yet he still thinks government is too big and the tax rates should be lower. This jerk acts like he is entitled to pay that or less. Obviously he thinks the tax rate should be zero. Then you have to ask, so when the government collects no taxes, who is going to pay Congress, the military and Social Security payments, etc.? No one??
Romney is clearly a walking advertisement for a tax increase on the 1%.
alberto, what's wrong with having him pay the same tax rate for sitting down doing nothing as the rest of us pay for actually working for our income? Since when does someone go from 50 million to 100 million and pay 15% on it? He can make all he wants, but why does he deserve a lower tax rate than me?
Nancy - or, we could just raise the capital gains taxes on anything above what the median wage is (about 45K) - below 45K, 15%...above 45%
wait, maybe that was too logical?
Oh, but then we'll hear cries of "how will business operate!"
well, it seems to me...if they are a good business with a good product they should be profitable... can therefore grow their businesses with their own earnings.
If the govt shouldnt be mired in debt, than neither should a corporation...beholden to their shareholders.
If you cant become sucessful on your product alone, and need 1 billion in investment (*cough* groupon)...then, perhaps...you shouldnt be in business?
did I just burst the crooks bubble?
So Romney supports America only half as much as a working stiff? Someone that actually works for the same amount of income that Romney receives is taxed twice as much? Someone that actually contributes to the country by working is penalized - in order to subsidize 'professional gamblers'?
Romney supports 'free enterprise'. 'Free enterprise' is simply conducting economic activity without moral or ethical accountability. 'Free enterprise' does not care if the economic activity is capitalist or socialist - or if it wrecks the economy. Romney enjoys 'firing' health insurance companies because he has no moral or ethical qualms about what that might mean.
Plundering the economy without sin - because - it is legal. What an endorsement for a phony capitalist ...
typical liberal hypocrisy! geez, msn talking points- like asking for ID to vote?! You have to have ID to get welfare, why is it such a problem? And keeping millions out of work to make doughbama look bad- do you really believe that?! He has failed on his own, no help necessary. And the article says most Americans pay 30%- no, most Americans pay NOTHING, some even get money back they never paid. Flat tax- EVERYBODY pay their fair share.
Alberto, the problem is that I make 45,000 a year and pay about 35% in taxes, Romney makes about 5,000,000 a year and only pays 15%. People always complain about how the top 5% of earners pay 70% of the taxes, but those people never remember that that top 5% of earners has about 95% of the money. If you possess 95% of the wealth, you should be paying 95% of the taxes, not 70%.
Romney now knows his taxes will have to be made public. You know he knows his exact tax rate. If he's told the American people that it's "closer to 15%" and it ends up being just a bit lower... look for dark days ahead for his campaign. Americans have no stomach for liars, cheats and thieves.
That 15% claim on Romney's part is a HUGE one. If it turns out that he pays even a lower rate than that, I predict that for each 1/10th of a percentage under 15% he pays, it's going to cost him a full percentage point drop in the polls. In essence, if his actual tax rate turns out to be closer to 14%, he won't lose 1% of the support, he'll lose 10%. If he's at an outrageously low 13%, it's all over for him.
Romney's campaign has finally started to see the light - the taxes will have to come out, only because President Obama was forced to release his long-form birth certificate. This won't go away, Mitt. Better to tear the bandage off now before the general election. The longer you wait, the more painful it's going to be. You can't begin to repair the damage until you know how bad it is.
Pension + Investments - Past losses usually equates to somewhere near 15%. You don't have to be rich to be there, you have to be old and have dabbled in real estate and/or the stock market. I'm a Dem and I find myself defending Romney versus the other clowns in the GOP race and, sometimes, like now, against my fellow Dems. Romney has plenty to campaign against and to worry about, but a 15% tax rate isn't one we should begrudge him.
Is he a waffler? Yes
Is he too secretive? Yes
Does he stretch the truth to a lie? Yes
But, so far, 15% is not uncommon nor a smoking gun.
God this feels strange!
To T-REX-847863
You just don't get it do you? The "lower income types" don't have income from capital gains or municipal bonds.
Tom - good to know, at 37K my tax rate (after deducting my home) is 9%
sounds fair to me. /end sarcasm
I would really like to know how everyone is claiming that they pay 35% in federal income tax.
Straight from the irs.gov website (2011 tax table):
If your income is $45K: Single would pay $7,381 (16.4%); Married would pay $5,904 (13.1%)
If your income is $75K: Single would pay $14,881 (19.9%); Married would pay $11,006 (14.7%)
Please remember that you always end up payng on your AGI (Adjusted Gross Income), and I highly doubt that anyone who has a salary of either $45K or $75K has an AGI of the same amount.
How are you coming up with that 35% in federal income tax again?
No President fails on his own; no help has been offered from the Right. There's an old saying: "not to decide is to decide". Your party has made it their mission, since the American people overwhelmingly elected Barack Obama president, not to decide, and everyone who doesn't know it is lying to themselves. That's why so many people are so pissed off at the Republican Party. This incessant lying has got to stop. It's simply embarrasing to watch.
Well isn't he special! By IRS standards, married filing jointly, he is paying the same percentage as people making between $17,000. - $69,000.
I've heard he is worth over one hundred million dollars.
I don't care if you are Democrat, Republican or Tea Party....THAT'S UPSETTING!
Um, um, um! The underachievers sure do get their drawers in a knot when we talk about the achievers among us. Take it easy; all of that envy is gonna turn you a bright green color!
Removing all of the exemptions to lower the rates might not be such a smart idea right now. First, does anyone believe that removing exemptions for dependents would ever be good social policy? As a person with no children myself, I don't want to see children suffer. Exemptions for dependents will always be necessary. Second, we cannot eliminate the mortgage deduction now, unless we really want a great depression. The amount of the mortgage interest deduction might be gradually lowered to phase out full tax deductions for all interest on very expensive homes. But eliminating the mortgage deduction now would ecourage 30% of all homeowners to walk away from their mortgage (because they are already upside down). Third, shouldn't retirement plan contributions be deductible? Fourth, everyone wants to encourage charitible deductions. Fifth, nobody wants to be taxed twice, so state and local taxes have to be deductible. And that completes my list of deductions last year. Most of the really offensive deductions are associated with running a business or maintaining a business office. Also, rental property gets really nice tax treatment, but again, how much can we hurt real estate ownership at this time?
@Jessica-1170252
There are many other things besides a house that you should be deducting. Sales taxes paid (even without receipts), car registration, large purchases, etc. Taking every single deduction that is legally available to you will drive that effective rate down.
Rico you are absolutely correct. The Capital Gains Tax during the Clinton presidency was 20%, and the rich did just fine. What's wrong with moving it back to 20%? That's still much lower than some people who make less money than him.
Also Tom, I believe that when Payroll tax is accounted, the median income group pays considerably more than Romney does.
@spider-737231 -- Romney is not an 'achiever' - he is a 'professional gambler'. Romney pays less taxes than someone that WORKS for the same amount of income. Equal incomes - 'professional gambler' pays half the amount of taxes.
Romney is NOT being rewarded for 'achieving' - he is being rewarded because he is lucky with his bets ...
What most people are missing is Romney says hmmm...around about 15 percent which means far less and that will be on this years taxes as he will not release other years for sure.
Romney is the worst kind of greedy crook... the kind that smiles and tells you what you want to hear as he disembowels your pension and life savings. He's a typical con-man.
So...Republicans wanted to lower the tax on income from capital gains, then act upset when the wealthy pay a lower rate then them. Likewise, they are all for making business "more profitable", and react with mock shock when people are laid off to reduce costs.
Income is income; tax all of it at the same rate, and remove all deductions from the tax code. Then, give every tax bracket a 10% reduction. You would both shrink the deficit, and give the majority of workers and small business a tax cut in the process.
Capitalism is ALL about supply and demand....and without DEMAND there is NO supply! Duh! "Without labor, there can be no capital." (T. Roosevelt). Without decent wages, for decent jobs there can be NO DEMAND...! This isn't about corporations or even small businesses worried about tax rates...people aren't buying stuff, because they don't have the money to buy stuff!
This one is AWESOME posted above
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/11/fed-tax-sentspent-by-state/
Look at the all those RED TEET SUCKING states and all those BLUE TEET WIELDING states. That's INCREDIBLE.
Note, MASSACHUSETTS is one of the highest CONTRIBUTORS, even with Romney only paying 15%!
Mitt Robme's way-
TUE MAR 15, 2011 AT 07:20 PM PDT
Americas Economy and Taxation Designed To Transfer Wealth From The Middle Class To The Wealthy
That is not all however. The wealthy gets most of their income from investments that provide capital gains. The middle class get most of their income from working an honest day’s work. Their income is taxed at up to 36% while the wealthy’s income is taxed at 15%. In other words, while the wealthy sits at their pool drinking tea and watching their stocks on their laptop, they are paying a lower percentage of taxes on their gains than the teacher, the engineer, the doctor, the secretary, the lawyer, the garbage man, the custodian, the salesman, the fireman, and the policeman.
Yet that is not all. The middle class pay social security taxes on all or most of their income. As one makes over 100+ thousand dollars, the tax goes away. Contrary to popular belief, the middle class worker will always pay a larger percentage of taxes (income/social security/Medicare) on their income than the wealthy.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/03/15/956815/-Americas-Economy-and-Taxation-Designed-To-Transfer-Wealth-From-The-Middle-Class-To-The-Wealthy
Tom - 35% is the base rate for taxes at 45k, if you have every deduction in the book you can get it down to 15%... but I don't have kids and I don't file a joint return, so there goes half the deductions, I'm not paying interest on a college loan or a home loan so there goes most of the rest of the deductions, so I'm still pretty close to 35% every year. With charitable donations and my other deductions I can usually only get it down as low as 30%. Me and most other people are paying well over the 15% you claim everybody can get.
You've just described about all politicians LMarcT. Good job!
To the right wingers on this board who are harping about the 15% capital gains tax being fair.
NO! Capital gains taxes apply to the investor class. People with money to burn. This low capital gains rate is probably the number one reason we are facing third-world income inequality. Income inequality will for certain result in instability in our society.
A little history. The capital gains tax use to be 35% before Reagan. He lowered it to 25%, and Bush lowered it again to 15%. The stated purpose of these cuts in capital gains taxes was to ostensibly encourage investment. It certainly encourages the investor class to run up their wealth even faster, but does little for those in the lower 75% of the income distribution curve.
Romney is a poster boy for the super-rich investor. He doesn't hold a candle, however, to the hedge fund managers. five'll get you ten Romney has a good deal of his booty in one or more hedge funds, which are only available for the rich to invest in.
While I don't agree with OWS's tactics, they have two valid arguments. 1.) the wealth disparity is unacceptable and the system is rigged against ordinary people and for the well-to-do. Hence, the 1% vs. the 99%. 2.) there is an obscene amount of money, coming from the rich and super rich - and corporations, that is poisoning our democratic form of government. Virtually every office-holder, especially at the federal level, has either bought his or her way into office with their wealth, or, worse yet, have been installed into elective office by wealthy "donors" who certainly expect something in return. And since the atrocious Citizens United Decision in 2010, the situation has become exponentially worse. The result of those five ideologues on SCOTUS, especially Thomas and Scalia, has the potential to bring down our entire system of government.
Back to capital gains taxes. It is essential that Romney or any other Republican get defeated in November. Anybody who doesn't realize how the Republicans coddle the rich while making things worse for everybody else has been watching too much FOX. Part of making the rich pay their fair share would be to return the capital gains taxes to pre-Reagan levels. That would do a whole lot more good than simply running up their marginal rates. Think about it.
Not sure anyone answered Spanky. Clinton His First rate was 28% He later dropped it to 20% when the deficit was somewhat in control . Then in 2003 Bush dropped it to 15%, where it stands today. Well in my middle class mind I think Obama should raise it back to 28% while we are having such great debt. I doubt that would get past Grover so Occupy until they listen!
So let me get this straight you are against Romney because he is wealthy and a part of the 1% crowd. Have you also been against John Kerry, Jane Harman, Mark Warner, John Corzine, Dianna Feinstein, ect, ect,..??
Mitt Romney didn't make the tax law, and unlike people such as Tom Daschle and Charlie Rangel he at least he pays his.
When you are worth $200 million dollars and pay a lower effective tax rate than your maid, something is terribly wrong. And all this time, the republicans have been screaming about the terrible tax burden on "job creators" when it turns out that all along the workers are paying a higher rate than the "creators."
Our current tax laws reward people who don't work and heavily tax the people who actually do work. This must change.
I understand that we want to investment incentives, but there are limits. No more than half of a persons gross annual income should be taxed under the lower capital gains tax rate. The rest should be taxed as regular income.
You know, the rate the rest of us pay.
I pay both sides of SS as a business owner, so I'm at ~15% from dollar #1
Then I pay federal tax on top of that. When I'm lucky enough to make over the $106K, I don't pay SS anymore, but by the time I'm making that much, I'm into the 25% bracket. The first income is taxed lower, so it's not 15% + 25%, but the net is still well over 15%.
I can dream so I figured how much I'd pay if I was actually a 1% earner ($530K is what I read somewhere). I calculated about 27% including FICA on the first $106K. So some wealthy person making the amount to just make it to the 1% pays almost twice as much as the $200M guy? I think that's wrong. Don't we WANT to make it worthwhile to become moderately wealthy, not punish those people the most?
To me, this is nothing more than a jealous, emotion fueling article. And I agree with the people that Romney did nothing wrong. In fact, people would have less respect for him if he paid a higher tax rate than he should be paying.
And since Obama and the Democrats are not advocating raising the capital gains tax rates, what Romney pays is really nothing more than political inspired news.
What makes me unable to support Romney is his experience at Bain Capital. They come into companies who sell their business at 4-6 x earnings, fire middle management that is making too much money, lay off workers by shipping their jobs overseas and other cost cutting ventures that got the purchased company where it is today. Their moves increase earnings in the short term, and they flip the company often earning 8x earnings on the flip. The vulture capitalists get even more money that their grandchildren can't spend. And it leaves families and communities devastated.
To me, this is a job killing greedy person that doesn't deserve the office of President of the United States.
Who pays more in taxes, the rich man paying 15% or the poor man paying 30%? Answer the rich man.
If a rich person made $500k of investment income then they paid $75k in taxes. A poor man making $45k @ 30% paid $13.5k in taxes. The rich fellow paid a whopping 82% more in taxes. I don't envy the rich and demand that they pay more, instead I strive to be one. That is the american dream and it is alive and well in my home.
@John-362791 -- Would you rather be the guy that earned $45k and paid $13.5k in taxes - or - would you rather be a guy that earned $500k and paid $250k in taxes?
It is the take home pay that matters - even in your home. If your taxes are too high - complain to someone earning more than you do. You are subsidizing their income, too.
Great, Fiesty!
John, the problem with that bit is that if Mitt made 45k with his "investments" he'd only pay 15% and the working man would pay 30%. This is about a tax code that favors people by type of income. The current tax proposal is that we eliminate the taxes Mitt would pay all together. This kind of a welfare state where only those of lesser means pay taxes to support a subsidized rich is the exact opposite of the upward mobility one would associate with the "American Dream."
"Tim-1040943
Tom - 35% is the base rate for taxes at 45k, if you have every deduction in the book you can get it down to 15%... but I don't have kids and I don't file a joint return, so there goes half the deductions, I'm not paying interest on a college loan or a home loan so there goes most of the rest of the deductions, so I'm still pretty close to 35% every year. With charitable donations and my other deductions I can usually only get it down as low as 30%. Me and most other people are paying well over the 15% you claim everybody can get."
Tim,
I am getting my figures here: www.irs.gov. Click on the tax table link. Please understand that I am strictly talking about the federal income tax, not SS and medicare, which is the value reflected in the table. If your salary is $45K per year, then your taxable income with only the standard decution would be about $35,500 (I assumed no other deductions as you claim), your gross federal income tax would be $5,006 (11.1%).
Mitt Robme, I like that one.
However, I believe Mitt did say he would 'means test' capital gains and leave it as is for up to the first $250,000. After that, the capital gains tax would rise - not sure exactly at what rate after the first $250,000, but it's a start.
The cap on income for the SS tax has to be raised immediately also to $250,000(all income).
0% tax sounds better then 15%
You do realize that there is not enough of that "rich people" money to go around. Which begs the question.....Do you want their money, or do you just not want anyone to be more comfortable than you. I say..... take their existing profits. and give it all out....to everyone who claims to be in the 99%. One time deal..... do you really think those people will not regain their wealth while you spend their money and never realize it has to be earned to continue the cycle. I was part of a local class action lawsuit here in the Detroit Michigan area. We all got about 80k pretax, out of 120 people 4 of us have that money in investments. Almost everyone had it all spent in the first year.
I'd like to know how the Feisty witch gets to be the first to comment on every political article. Then all she does is spew her keyboard diarhea and her adoring snarky liberal friends get to kiss her stinky-ring.
jolly. Enough rich people to go around? I don't want anyone's money, but I do have to wonder about the logic of a system where the rich pay lower taxes than bus drivers, profitable corporations get further subsidized with tax payer money, and a man who wants to change all that by lowering taxes further on the rich and raising them on the poor. This drive to cut education, increase spending on military, lower taxes on corporations, raising taxes on the poorest people, wipe out social security, protect oil company subsidies, and wipe out all consumer protections seems a bit less like a workable economic strategy and more like government for sale.
Perhaps you think that even challenging the logic of a system like that makes you a greedy jealous despicable poor person. Please consider that perhaps re-instituting feudalism and telling the masses to deal with it is not the most sustainable path to prosperity and stability for a society.
Alberto, capitalism doesn't subsidize the rich or give more favoritism to certain types of income. There is nothing economic about it. The theory of capitalism is one that suggests perfect competition, zero profit, and the most efficient allocation of resources. What we have are monopolies, plutocracy, anti-competitive behavior, and feudalistic wealth distribution away from the producers to those who are given preferential legal treatment by virtue of class.
Perhaps you are confusing America's concept of a government for the people with justice and liberty for all, all men are created equal blah blah, with a corporate hegemony. Corporations don't know how to run a country better than we the people and they sure don't have any problem blowing up the economy and running to the taxpayers for a bailout and a pat on the back.
After the Long Depression and the subsequent Great Depression, we learned that something called anti-trust, regulation, and social safety nets are the reason that we didn't see a depression for 60 whole years until people decided to systematically and slowly revert us right back to 1903 so that we could repeat the first half of the 20th century and see if things happen differently. They didn't.
The "how" is a lower tax rate, only available for "unearned income", that is, income from investments, as contrasted with "earned" income from actually providing a service or producing goods.
The "why" is even easier - The wealthiest have the most money available to invest, so they are the ones with the most "unearned income". It was put into the tax code specifically to benefit the wealthiest, but since some working class people also have a small amount of investments, they could pretend it was a tax break for everyone.
A better lesson is to remember how much better it was under Clinton, when the tax rate was higher and the economy was booming. The Bush tax cuts (still in effect!) didn't lead to a booming economy, it lead to vast upward movement of wealth, a faltering economy, record deficits, a decline in the working class and working poor, and rising unemployment. The big crash occurred in the last 3 years of the Bush Administration, we've been slowly recovering since Obama got in, but we won't get full recovery until the Bush tax cuts are ended.
So are you saying they should pay the same dollar amount? That would mean the poor man having to pay $30K more than he earns, which even you would have to admit is a bizarre situation. The rich should be paying more taxes for the same reason a mansion owner pays more for insurance than a hut owner - they have more valuable property to protect, and a major function of Government is property protection.
A more interesting comparison would be a rich person making $500K in investments vs. a rich person making $500K running a business manufacturing goods for sale. The investor pays only $75K in taxes, even though he does no work and produces no useful goods, while the businessman pays $150K even though he works hard to keep his business running. Now, how is that at all fair?
But if the system is rigged to favor the rich over everyone else, then there is little chance for you to ever become "one of them". Wouldn't you prefer a system that was a little less rigged against you?
I would like to note that the entire point of the income tax is so that richer people pay more. In addition, because wealth distribution in the United States is by an exponential graph, the income tax is rightly progressive, as it has always been since President Lincoln first implemented it to pay for the Civil War.
Cut taxes for the rich, Repeal child labor laws, Kill the post office, Kill the department of education, Get rid of the EPA, Restrict voting rights, Make abortion illegal, Make being gay illegal, Make the bible the basis for all our laws and on and on and on. These are a few of the things the GOP has been working very hard to enact into law. The sick thing is seeing people like Romney line up in support of this twisted agenda. Now with him proposing yet another tax cut for the rich it is obvious this man doesn’t have a clue about how average Americans are struggling in this GOP created mess of an economy.
BTW: Thanks, Russell-2157151 for post # 1.100, it makes perfect sense.
No wage should ever be taxed at any level of government, wages are not a profit or a gain, they are a straight across trade for your labor. I do believe that some sort of a tax should be levied on the citizens for upkeep of the commons, but taxing wages is unconstitutional.
I find it weird that Romney pays only 15% on his wealth. While I know that 35% is the tax rate for the highest income bracket ($380k+), paying only 15% on huge investments seems ridiculous. I have heard that lowering capital gains taxes increases investments, but you can have too many investments (i.e. a bubble). I would suggest a more straightforward tax plan. Check it out, as it is part of a deficit reduction and economic stimulus package:
1. Deficit Reduction Package over 12 years:
2. Economic Plan (paid for by a 4% surtax on people who make over $1 million).
3. Reform Government.
I know it's a bit long but that is it. Please comment on it and send your suggestions.
OBAMA BIDEN 2012
Indeed, only registered republicans pay the reduced 15% rate on gains.
Democrats, like Obama, pay 80% on gains.
TorpedoYou @1.15
Actually this is not a quote you can attribute to Theodore Roosevelt, it was a pro labor slogan dating all the way back to 1871 or 72 I believe. I also believe (I could be wrong) that it was first published in the Scott County Kicker (Benton Mo.) August 15 1916.
The origin of the slogan stems from a speech given by Abraham Lincoln "Annual Address Before the Wisconsin State Agricultural Society" at Milwaukee, Wisconsin, September 30, 1859.
Now reading this, can anyone consider this man with only a ninth grade education, self taught from there on, that his absolute genius was on display for the world to see, before he ever became president.
The highlighting is mine, just to raise the awareness of the salient points....
This is the kind of Republicanism that Dr Paul supports, and I LOVE... (neo-cons HATE this stuff)
Unfortunately this article left out the most telling Romney quote given in the same paragraph. Romney says that for the last 10 years or so he pretty much hasn't worked but only had capital gains income. He goes on to further say that he has had some income from speaking fees, "but not very much."
Well turns out that "not very much" was about $374,000 just last year alone. Herein lies the problem. This guy thinks that $374,000 isn't very much. More than 7 times as much as the median income in the country isn't very much. How can a guy who thinks this way and says this so casually, even understand remotely what it is like to be an average American? How can he relate to the issues and problems that 90% of Americans face every day? If $374,000 isn't very much, then things like a couple hundred dollars in unemployment, food stamps, $600/month in health insurance bills, a measly Social Security check, your $15k tax bill etc., all are pretty much nothing, so you really shouldn't be too concerned about eliminating a few dollars out of the federal budget. It's all relative, but how can this guy possibly relate?
This guy is just so far out of touch that he couldn't possibly ever let reality get in the way of his decision making process. The mere fact that he is so stupid as to even let these words come out of his mouth just indicates how clueless he really is. Watch him say it. His offhand attitude tells the story. www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7Z2Grnfiwc
Must be nice !
It must be, but I'm going to be the Nth person in America to call bulls--t on this number. I bet his tax rate is much closer to zero. 15% is a best case scenario. He doesn't want the American people to see all the tax shelters he has set up, and how much of his money is off shore. Until he shows us his long form, he's not a real American in my book, and should be disqualified as president.
"must be nice"
Yes, it is. Being retired myself I pay less taxes than Mitt does, maybe making up for all the years I paid 35% to the Fed, 12.6% to SS / Med, 15% to the state, and a whopper property tax bill, that I still have to pay yearly, well over 65% of my income in taxes for 35 years. Most of you scare the hell out of me. If you don't understand the difference between capital gains while being retired, rather than when you work for a living in a real job, then you must be as dumb as dirt.
Sorry to bust your idiot bubble cav, but playing within the "rules", set up by our beloved IRS, is not against the law. You know what should be? people who are to stupid to use whatever legal means necessary to defund the government. You pay as much tax as possible OK? I'll use whatever legal means I have to pay as little as possible.
If you are retired and trying to live on your savings with "safe investments only" you are already shafted by the federal government. The interests rates on CD and treasury bonds are certainly very low.
A person has already paid taxes on the money he has invested from the income he earned while working.
Wow, Willard.
So correct me if I'm wrong, but this appears to be what you're saying...
I work my arse off for every dime I get, you sit on yours and watch the money roll in.
And you deserve to pay a lower rate.
Is that the deal?
Why does Feisty always get collapsed for speaking the truth?? Who/What exactly is the "community" that does the collapsing when she gets so many thumbs up votes???
The capital gains rate should phase out at $100,000 in annual investment income. More than that should get taxed as regular income.
This would protect middle class retirees who live on their investments, but would keep millionaire Presidential candidates from coasting on the system and paying a lower effective tax rate than their maid.
Hey, cornmeal, do you know how Romney actually "made" that investment income?
It wasn't from earned income he invested. Bain Capital has a nasty habit of acquiring companies, cashing out their pension funds and borrowing lots of money against their assets, and then buying Bain Capital stock with the money.
Guess what that does to the value of Romney's and the other Bain Capital managers' stock? Yep, it went up. (Money for Mitt.) Then some of those companies they leveraged all the cash from went bankrupt - and all their creditors got the shaft. Translation: Bain stole money from workers' pensions and creditors and padded its own stock value.
Vulture capitalism at its best. Now explain one more time how "poor" Mitt shouldn't be taxed at more than 15% on that money? He didn't even pay Medicare & Social Security taxes on it, either - unlike all us working stiffs who only have earned income.
Feisty would know the truth if it bit her pal. She lives on this thread. I have no idea what this "community" is, except most are uninformed and completely uneducated about most everything including this topic.
It comes with the territory... lol
The truth tends to scare them...
Heck, they even bite their own when they tell the truth. Look at how they went after Gingrich for saying too much in public about Mitt.
RealAmericanFirst, why don't you go tell your rant to the local Staples store General Manager, OK? Your post is a example of a complete uneducated person concerning money. When you are retired like Mitt and I am, you paid SS / Med when you have a working job, not when your retired. How about this when you retire, how about you pay 12.6% in SS / Medicare tax on your investments and your Social Security OK? I paid 65% of my income in taxes for nearly 35 years, and then I retired. You and your ilk are done sticking it to me, I'm sick to death of people who want something that I earned with hard work and perseverance.
JCB, thank you for proving your own point.
JCB - I guarantee you Mitt took at big portion of his "working" income as stock and deferred compensation - meaning he NEVER did, and will never, pay a penny of Medicare/Social Security tax on any of it.
It's really sad that people like yourself really DID work for a living and paid their taxes, and yet you're spending your retirement defending those who DIDN'T and WON'T.
alberto, Romney "created" much of his success by damaging the lives of other people.
This is the problem...Romney:
- Fired many workers
- Placed numerous workers on state unemployment lines
- Destroyed countless jobs
ALL for personal gain.
This candidate is a slick phony that is always climbing a never-ending corporate ladder.
Under Romney, the "ordinary" citizens economc, political and social well-being would become dire.
Feisty - read your collapsed comment and it appears the far right is terrified of you. That statement was not inflammatory, offensive, etc. You clearly frighten those who are truly ignorant!
And to those on the right - I totally understand capital gains taxes, deferred income, etc. However, I expect a Presidential candidate to show his tax returns. If he/she won't - I have to question what they are hiding.
And, JCB, if you paid 65% of your income in taxes - you should take your accountant to court! No tax rate is THAT high!
RAF, then change the law, but don't hold someone responsible for using whatever loopholes that he / she can to defund this disgusting government that we have, that goes to war whenever it damn well pleases, that pays 146 million a year so government employees can upgrade to business or first class at our expense when flying, or spend education dollars at a rate 9 times higher than the inflation rate, or pass a pathetic health care overhaul that does nothing to control costs or open up new markets to competition.
Using the legality of the situation is something to me that is admirable, not using them to me is stupidity. Romney is a smart guy, I don't like ignorance. And how Obama walked away from Bowles / Simpson that could have saved his job is beyond me. I am not a hardcore conservative I'm a pragmatic progressive who is sick to death of international intervention, but also see's a broken education system, that is protected by unions as the greatest threat to our country long term, that and unsustainable debt. best to you.
Sorry to bust your idiot bubble cav, but playing within the "rules", set up by our beloved IRS, is not against the law.
JCB, the rules are not set by the IRS; they follow the rules set by congress.
Speaking of loopholes, how much do you think the mortgage interest deduction is on Romney's many mansions?
If you make 50,000 and then save 5,000 AFTER TAXES, you then take that money and invest it in either stocks, bonds, land etc. So investment income is AFTER TAX EARNED income that is then subject to unearned income tax going forward such as Mitt is suggesting his income is. So essentially he stopped collecting a W-2 for earned income and now is living off investment from money he either earned or inherited. Regular people that retire are doing the exact same thing, only with less of a pot.
It was said just a few hours ago, that Sears that is looking financially shaky is looking to PRIVATE EQUITY money to bail them out and turn Sears around. Twinkies, or Hostess which is the parent company that employs 19,000 union workers is looking for another PRIVATE EQUITY helping hand. If no private equity help comes around like another Mitt, thousands of jobs will be eliminated.
Municipal bonds are tax exempt because without that investment there is no investment for communities. Many people like the idea of "tax exempt" and thus that lowers the tax burden as well. Capital gains, meaning long-term is taxed at 15 percent.
With respect to Buffet, he purposely pays himself ONLY 100,000 so that he is only taxed at the marginal rates for just that income. So he could up his tax burden if he instead paid himself a lot more money that right now he gets in another form. He is a hypocrite to publicly say he SHOULD PAY MORE TAXES, WHEN HE COULD DO THAT NOW. BTW, his fund which he manages, has several disputed tax years and thus owes the feds money. You can be sure he isn't fighting them to pay more in taxes.
Sure, JCB - we'll just sit here and listen to you yammer about "defunding" school kids, food inspectors, Medicare, sewage treatment, roads, bridges (remember that defunded one in Minnesota?), police officers, firefighters, the military, prisons, embassies, teachers, water treatment, etc. etc.
Now just be sure to stop using all those, okay? Since they're so "disgusting" to you.
In fact, there's a little country called Somalia that sounds like it would be right up your alley. Just be sure not to use U.S. air traffic control to get there, okay?
Those who say that income tax has already been paid on the invested money that results in capital gains so it is double taxing that money are incorrect. Capital gains tax is paid on the difference between the initial investment (cost basis) and the sale price of the investment, so you are not paying taxes twice on the same income.
JCB,
You are a textbook definition of what an "American" is. You worked hard for a living and dont want to see your hard earned dollars that are paid out to taxes go to waste. Completely logical. I only pray that there are more Americans like you out there although I am scared to death the upcoming x and y generation are nothing like you unfortunately. Pray for us.
Well isn't HE special....aren't they all special. According to the IRS tax table married filing joint the 15% rate is paid by people making $17,000. - $69,000.
I have heard that he is worth over 100 million dollars.
Democrat, Republican or Tea Party.....this is just down right insulting!
JCB,
The president didn't walk away from something that had any chance of passing the ridiculously and, to me, dangerous Republicans in the House and Senate. So many on the right bring the plan up but fail to point out the significant changes in the tax rates on those being protected by the right.
From Forbes-
The Bowles/ Simpson plan "proposed taxing capital gains and dividends at ordinary income rates and, most importantly, the proposal’s overall impact: $750 billion in income tax hikes and additional increases and in the Social Security payroll tax for high-earners and in the gas tax."
Does that sound like something the right would approve?
I understand that many people feel that 'government' is too big, more than they want to pay for. Just about every tax payer is funding some govt activity, whether the war in Afghanistan or food stamps, that they do not agree with. However, this 'defunding' effort is doing it backwards and creating a lot of problems, such as a deficit we can not afford. It is easy to pass tax cuts, but then no one wants to cut spending. Tax cuts without corresponding spending cuts are not cuts at all; it is just a decision to put it on our Chinese credit card.
So let's be honest about what we want to do. Let's get serious about cutting spending and reducing the deficit instead of cutting taxes. When we start showing a surplus, then we can talk about tax cuts. Otherwise, it is just a shell game where some tax payers pocket the money we had to borrow from China.
Nice try JCB-1236504; Staples was Bain, not Bain Capital! Try to pay attention.
Sure, JCB - we'll just sit here and listen to you yammer about "defunding" school kids, food inspectors, Medicare, sewage treatment, roads, bridges (remember that defunded one in Minnesota?), police officers, firefighters, the military, prisons, embassies, teachers, water treatment, etc. etc.
Pretty sure that is not what he is referring to. More like paying for illegal immigrants medical, school, food, etc.etc. etc. Giving away food stamps like a hot potato. Spending millions on a study for why chimpanzis fling their sh!T. Foreign donations mounting in the hundreds of billions of dollars. How about you use common sense REAL AMERICAN FIRST.
This is a perfect example of the greedy elite & Republican Party philosophy.This is the ordinary cheep tax code for the filthy, right wing rich, which is far less than what the middle class Americans pay. Rowney's tax payment is not even half of the average 10 to 35 % of Federal Tax payments. Romney is no ordinary or middle class American. But he is full of BS as is the rest of his right wing Republican Party members and the elite. So why aren't there any REAL MIDDLE CLASS AMERICANS running for the office? You can't honestly tell me that there are no available, intelligent, or honest persons among that group, who sincerely want to serve all the constituents. Instead the middle class and poor sit on their behinds allowing the elite to dictate the rules, and block all others from running for office. Start standing up to the greedy illegal tactics dictated by the corporate and greedy elite.
Real American - Other than the military, pretty much all of the government services you mentioned come from sources OTHER THAN the federal income tax. In fact, nearly all of them are from state and local property taxes, sales tax and income tax. Medicare is funded through the SS/Meciare tax. So, nobody is "yammering" about starving kids, etc., etc., etc. I think what is disgusting to many of us is that the government spends too much, wastes too much and still wants more. It's never enough. Why do we have a department of education when schools are funded at the state and local level? We are getting bilked by the trillions.
15 percent or less. This man has a net worth of 150 to 200 million. I don't care who you are and how you slice it. This kind of sh^t is a goddamn shame. Each and every member of Congress needs to be whipped with a razor strap within an inch of their lives. Most of the very rich pay little to nothing. This is not sustainable.
FedUp, here's the chart of where federal $$ go:
http://www.cbpp.org/images/cms//PolicyBasic_WhereOurTaxDollarsGo-f1_rev4-15-11.jpg
Too bad $7 of federal money goes to old people for every $1 spent on children.
I'd love to know where on your tax form you found the checkbox that says "I'm withholding money for these programs enacted by my elected representatives, but I want to fund these over here." Because I looked really hard for that box when Bush decided to go to war with Iraq and never found it.
No way this guy even pays 15%. The way the system is set up he'd pay only 15% even if he had no deductions. Which I'm sure he has plenty of.
JBC, you never paid 65% on your income.
1. the maximum rate after 1992 was 39.5% after $271,000 so you would never pay more over that amount
2. the SS rate with Medicare is 7.65% so when those two are added those two up they are 47.15%
3. Any tax you paid to the city or state is deductible from federal so you don't pay taxes on both.
4. The percentage of your income that is taxed is much lower than the highest rate you paid unless you made millions of dollars a year in which case it still would not be 65% of income. As when I worked and paid in the 35% bracket my percentage of income paid in federal taxes was in the 22% range.
Those are conservatives who can dish it out, but can't take it. They should be punished for misuse of the Report button, but never are (that I am aware of).
And then you'll whine and moan about the 47% who 'pay no taxes at all' won't you?
Larry, deducting state tax is not a full deduction and you know it, so what if it is deducted, you only get a small % back. And when you are self employed you pay both sides of SS / Medicare which is 12.6%. Don't let facts get in your way. And even if was 60%, how in the hell is that considered fair??
Fred Evil, And then you'll whine and moan about the 47% who pay no taxes at all won't you?
Yes Fred I will
The capital gains tax rate needs to be done away with. It needs to be taxed at the same rate as regular income, take capital gains, take SS, take medicare out of it. To those that cry that they already paid taxes on the money, no you didn't. Notice the word "gains", you do not pay on the money you started with, you already paid taxes on that, so you only pay on the gains. To those that say they invested that money for their retirement so they should not have to pay taxes on it. Get a Roth IRA then. Also, if you made $50K and paid taxes on it while working, and then lived on the rest of it and managed to save some for retirement, then if you get $50K a year from investments in retirement, then you can pay taxes on that $50K and live on the rest just like you did during your working carrer. If you do not make $50K on your investments during retirement, then fine, you pay at the rate for whatever you do make. So if you make $20K, then you will probably not pay any taxes on it.
The problem is not the average retiree. The problem is the 1%. Where do you think they make their money? They make it from investments, not some $50K a year job. So they only pay the capital gains tax, no SS, no Medicare. Whereas the guy punching a time clock for $50K pays a much larger percentage of his income because he is paying a higher rate for income tax, and SS and Medicare on top of that.
Make $10,000,000 in a paycheck and pay 35%. Make $10,000,000 by investing and pay 15%. Why should the guy that makes it by investing not have to pay his share? Income is income. The rich make money by investing, the poor make it by working a job and getting a paycheck. Why should the rich not pay the same rate?
..................................."Loopholes + Romney = 15% or less"
This is one of the taxes that many republican's want to reduce further. Some has said as low as 0 percent. They seem to think that reducing this tax will encourage hiring. How many people has Romney hired, because of this reduced tax rate? Oh that's right he likes to fire people, not hire them.
JCB is correct President Obama did nothing with Simpson / Bowles. I think President Obama missed an opportunity there. Why not bring the plan up even if the Republicans pushed the plan down? It would at least show that he tried.
Glad to see an understanding tonight that raising the earned income tax brackets will not impact whether Romney pays 15%.
Mac Forrester News for you Romney is not in the government. It would help if you did a tiny bit of research. Also try and do some study into the Irs and its thrust into taxation.
The U.S.A. was set up and will stay a capitalistic economy. You understand THAT? Not a socialistic economy run by failing on the job trainees who never ran a business and know nothing about economics.
The reason there are tax breaks for the rich is that they know how to invest the money and the government doesn't.
You KNOW that OBAMA has thrown billions away on his pie in the sky ideas and Biden's stupidity. Remember the U.S. $500,000,000 Obama and Biden sent to Finland to build a competing electric car company? Solyndra and the other 30 odd failed renewable energy government investments. The almost 3 billion dollars Obama authorized to be given to the corrupt mafia infected unions?
Hell I could find 500 billion dollar in cuts but the democrats would squeal like the three little pigs. That is why the excess spending is called pork.
In reality you liberals/socialists/progressives/leftists are jealous that your democratic politcal friends and whom you voted for, who are the 1%ers didn't share their loot with you. They got the political jobs, used their positions, informants, insider knowledge and contributions to make them super rich and didn't spread that information down to the voters they scammed to vote for them!
Obama really screwed his black constituents. When he took office the black male unemployment rate wa 10% today it is 19.1%, just about double. He really rewarded all those blacks he suckered into voting for him, didn't he?
JBC, you know as well as I that you never paid 65% or even 60% of your income in taxes because of deductions and if you were in business for yourself the deductions would have been better in your favor. The state and local taxes would have been a 39% return on your taxes which isn't a small amount and would bring down the total percentage you would had paid. In other words, if you have $10,000 in state and local taxes you are not paying 39% on that money. It probably was taxed at a 10% rate. But don't let the facts get in your way.
Let's look at this objectively. 1. Willard was born into a very wealthy politically connected family(just like W). 2.He had every advantage that his family's wealth and connections provided. Things like education and medical care etc (just like W) 3. He made his considerable fortune based on those advantages and that wealth (just like W). 4. He is pursuing that wealth using the US tax code. Just like EVERY rich person does. 5. He makes a lot of money based on investments and capital gains laws (again just like every rich person) 6. He makes a lot of money giving speeches ( just like W , Clinton, Gore, Gingrich, and every other politician) So this poster boy for the wealthy American lifestyle is now being pilloried by those that are doing that exact some thing and those that wish they could. News flash people we haven't had a middle class president since Truman. Most of them have be wealthy. Even George Washington was the richest man in the American Colonies during his days. He stirred up a revolution because he didn't want to pay taxes and the Indians were in the way of him aquiring tens of thousands more acres for his slavemaster lifestyle. THE SMOKE SCREEN CONTINUES.
And by the way, ideas, mental ability, sweat, hard work, desire, education, all help create a person who gets rich. If you would stop complaining and emulate the people who are the 1%ers you too can be rich.
You sit around looking for table scraps and holding out your hands to the rich democrats who control congress and the president, don't expect more than a bit of charity. (Which of course come from the people who really pay taxes.)
A rough guess would put Romney's 2011 income at about $50 million and he would be paying @15% about $7,500,000 million dollars in income tax.
Enough for you socialists/leftists/progressives/liberals? Why should he pay more?
You do know that the rich know better how to spend and invest their money than the federal government that blows the money down the crapper, don't you? The federal government grandly increased the federal deficit by almost 6 Trillion dollars in the last 3 years under Obummer? Take the 3.9 billion that Obummer shoved in the crapper with his ridiculous failed renewable energy schemes and the 3 billion it gives to unions and hell, just stop the stupidity!
All Obummer has to do is offer a prize of $100,000,000 to the first person or company who can cheaply develop a process to get cheap commercial quantities of hydrogen(which is a renewable energy source) and can store it safely in vehicles. No money gets paid out until the processes are inspected and certified by independent inspectors.
Obummer is too dumb to think about that. Norway, Japan, China and England are working on Hydrogen fuels and Norway has built a highway with hydrogen service stations to fuel up vehicles with hydrogen.
I sent a letter with that information to my senators, Obummer and congressman and got zip back.
True but what makes the wealthy right wing politicians really mad is because those like Clinton and Obama weren't born with a silver spoon in their mouth. They were born without wealth and worked their way to the top. These others like McCain, Gore, both Bush presidents, were all born to a wealthy political family.
Jim, its even worse than that. We're lucky if most of these guys ever pay capital gains tax on their gains. If they never sell they never pay and if they hold it until they die then the basis gets stepped up so there's no gains. Most of them start moving this stuff into trusts long before that though so they can pass it to their heirs at the lower basis and thus pay less estate tax. They and their heirs can just borrow money if they need any rather than sell investments and realize a taxable gain. The whole thing is a complete joke. And then they whine about people in the working class not paying taxes. Other than professional investors, nobody gets out of FICA and that's over 15% right there. Rich people pay very little tax in this country.
So what if they kept hold of the money they earned or inherited? Obummer is shoving it down the crapper as fast as it comes in. Who is better to spend your money the government or you?
The IRS has rules for taxation and through the years, the rate on the top income producing people has steadily declined.
A relative was a doctor in the early 60's and he complained that the maximum income tax was 90%. However, the government had thousands of tax breaks for the wealthy and they needed accountants to understand the financial web to find the tax breaks.
You leftists/progressives/socialists/liberals have a problem understanding that the government is made up of two bit tin horn politicians who spend a few years, get their take and run! They don't give a sh*t about you and your problems! Kennedy was worth 1 BILLION DOLLARS in his own right.
Between his screwing anything without a penis, starting the Vietnam war and fuc*ing the Cubans who he had trained to invade Cuba, he didn't give a rat's ass about the middle class.
Obummer is probably, besides Carter, the most inept person to be president. He has no military, business, financial or economic experience. He has no background as a worker and never had to work up a sweat or worry where his next meal was coming from. He got his loot and hasn't helped anyone besides his hangers on and his anti American Pastor Wright.
Get rid of income tax altogether.
Larry-2260635 You prefer your leftist presidents to be crooks like Clinton? Bush Sr. is worth 20 million and Bush Jr. is worth 38 million. Clinton is worth 200 million and his bagwoman wife in her own right is worth over 30 million. Now you explain to me how a $40,000 a year governor got all that money!
And while we are on the subject of presidents and money, you tell me who paid Obummer during his college and summer breaks. Show me one company or business he worked for. Why doesn't Obummer reveal the name of his ghost writer?
Obummer used his position as politician and president to sell his books. If Obummer was a white shoe salesman who would buy his books?
The tax system was rigged by the 1% and supported by the GOP T-Tards, Conservative Values.
Mac Forrester Romney shares 15% of his income with the government about $7,500,000. He earned it. And he paid his legitimate taxes on it. Tell me how the government is going to throw it down the crapper? They throw 3 billion at unions and ask for no accountability. Obummer threw $3.9 billion at more than 30 failed renewable energy companies. Obama and Biden threw $500,000,0000 to the Finish Electric Car company to compete with U.S. made hybrids and electric cars.
Obummer has no business, economic or financial experience or sense. He probably did not read the budget line by line as it would take him a month to wade through it and EVEN IF HE DID HAVE THE EDUCATION WHICH HE DOES NOT, he wouldn't change a give away!
HE HAS TO BUY VOTES!
Patriotic American U.S.A .Romney paid about $7.5 million dollars in income taxes how much did you pay? And why should he pay more? He worked hard, has the brains and ability. Why should he pay more on what he earned? So the government can send it down the crapper with the rest?
Patriotic American U.S.A. Remember Patriass American this country was created as a constitutional capitalistic democracy, not meant to be a socialistic paradise. The revolution in 1776 was begun against unfair taxation.
You win a 100,000 lottery, the government steps in and takes 39%. That is fair to you? Canada and Australia does not tax its citizens on salaries or income from foreign sources. The U.S. IRS does. Is that fair?
If you work in a country that does not have a bilateral tax agreement like Mexico, you have to pay Mexican income taxes and you have to pay U.S. income taxes. Doesn't leave you much does it?
Once poor Mitt discloses his tax forms we'll see if its 15%. While he has publicly said he opposes 0% on capital gains, most likely he would like it to be 1% to show the little people he's not opposed to taxes and is willing to pay his fair share. That amount is what's fair to the 1% crowd.
Romney draws flies, 7.5 M before loopholes. Are you his Acct. ? How do you know what his taxes are ?? He didn't release them ???
Wilsonaide: I won't reply to you until i really believe you have some factual or historical knowledge of what you're talking about. You're a student of "Frank Luntz", and just as full of sh^t. All anyone will get from your gas peddling is a bad smell.
You people are talking ludicous regarding Mitt Romney. All he can do is guess at his tax rate. Why? Because, taxes aren't even do yet, people!
Tax Returns aren't due until April 15th. Some employers haven't even mailed out W2's or Business 1099's yet, those are deadline mailing on the 31st of January. How can Mitt release a tax return that is still waiting on Tax Information? I didn't see Newt Gingrich's 2011 Tax Return released either! This ploy by Gingrich was ridiculous. All Romney can do is guess at his income and tax liability rate until the Tax Preparers actually prepare his return, his rate is determined and the IRS accepts it. Let's see Gingrich, Santorum, Perry and Paul do the same!
FYI, Mitt Romney was being modest.. His tax rate is actually closer to 25-28%. How do I know this... I am an IRS Enrolled Agent. Taxes are my business!
Let me see if I have this right. Mitt's responsible for crafting zero portions of the US tax code and he ostensibly follows it correctly. I fail to see how this is his fault. Rail on the code all you want (rightfully so), but he's as much a product of the current system as you or I.
Now I understand.
I normally lean toward less government, but in this case I am 100% in support of adding at least one mandatory economic class in the public schools.
I have posted links to Wikipedia for the definition of stock. The link will be blacked out though starting at 5:00 UTC time as Wikipedia along with the rest of Wikipedia as Wikipedia stages a protest against Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) in US House and the Protect IP Act (PIPA) in the senate.
Here is a question for both Democrats and Republicans. How is breaking the internet more important than creating jobs and balancing the budget?
Why hasn't anyone asked for Newt's returns? With his shell company I'm sure he pays the same as Mitt - is this a deflection not to show his - what a clever boy
No wonder Mitt did not want to release his tax statements he is in the top 1%, and he loves an unfair tax system in this country, Labor is the ones who pay taxes my friend and the rich have lawyers to get them through the loop holes to keep their money, the working person just keeps paying more . I will not vote for these rich they do not understand how unfair our system is for the common person that is why they are the 1% and we are the 99% the poor..
Ask john kerry harry read and nancy pilosi what their effecttive tax rates are ! What a bunch of misdirected sheep you vine commenters are! Fair and balanced! I think not!
Yep lets keep arguing over who gets paid more and who pays more taxes while both parties try to slip through Stop Online Piracy Act (SOPA) in US House and the Protect IP Act (PIPA) in the senate.
JCB, I recently took early retirement, too. My income is essentially in captial gains, rents and dividends. My real estate holdings take advantage of depreciation. All told, if my retirement income had been earned income, my tax rate would be double what it is today. The worst kind of income to have from a tax perspective is W-2 income! Better to be Romney, you and me!
And said with such pride.... :(
Feisty gets collapsed not because anyone is afraid of her, it's because we tire of her smart-mouth comments, all gussied up to look like intelligent snark. Look, it's no surprise that Hussein could kill a man in cold blood and she'd be fine with it, so long as the victim is a Republican. That's fine but her arrogance and pomposity are just... tiring. We're fine reading opposing points of view but not when it's dripping with sarcasm.
Are they directly insulting a specific 'viner? Are the off-topic? Or do they just hurt?
Your feelings being hurt is insufficient reason to oppress someone else's opinion, not to mention a CoH violation.
In what is becoming typical Mitt fashion, what his stance was yesterday is not exactly his position today...
Is John Kerry one of his advisors?...
dangerfield,
LOL. Do you also suppose he changes advisors as he changes positions? (Oh, and I have an extra Mr. Coffee for you if you need one, Joe left me so many!)
...speaking of that, I wonder if he fired the "advisor" whom he said was wrong about negotiating with the Taliban. Always nice to be a Sr Advisor on Foreign Policy matters and then have your candidate say on National television that you are wrong as though he was a water boy, who brought Mr. Romney cold water in the wrong cup.
I would be a great adviser. I have been advising Mr. phinephancy for years (although he calls it nagging). LOL
I need one that takes K-cups Phine, as I have recently been "converted" to the church of "Keurig"...;-)
(Amazon reviews claim that the Mr. Coffee versions are cheaper and BETTER!)
dangerfield,
Nice to know about that review. We had been looking at Keurig, but have yet to pull the trigger. I will pass that along to hubby.
I was shocked at how much counter space the thing (Keurig B-60) takes up, but it makes a great cup of er, JOE...
bunch of sticks, match, coffee pot. handful of ground coffee
Oh, give me land, lots of land under starry skies above,
Don't fence me in.
Let me ride through the wide open country that I love,
Don't fence me in.
Let me be by myself in the evenin' breeze,
And listen to the murmur of the cottonwood trees,
Send me off forever but I ask you please,
Don't fence me in.
dangerfield,
LOL Game set match!!!!
Ideology,
Good Afternoon! You seem in fine fettle today!
I got a song in my heart and I'm dancing in the snow.
Ideology,
Keep the song in your heart, stay out of the snow - you will get frostbite!!!
Can't locate the original....but enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0Dzq1xwFGs
dangerfield, that is another reason I only attend funerals.
That WAS a funeral...;)
Whatever they were drinking, I will take two!!!
enough I say .... favorite word of the day- aibohphobia
Palindromes?
aibohphobia- the irrational fear of palindromes
Well, palindromes can scare the heck out of a lot of people! LOL
Not as scary as Sarah Palindrones!
Hmm, should we forget that he paid taxes on the income used to make the investments? That's where the argument against the 15% rate fails. You pay taxes on the income that you invest with a company (gamble) and then people complain when you only pay 15% the increase when you had as good of a chance of losing everything in this economic climate. Sounds like jealousy to me.
You pay taxes on the income that you invest with a company (gamble)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you know how the IRS treats actual GAMBLING?...;-)
You PAY taxes on your winnings and do NOT get a deduction on your LOSSES...
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc419.html
Oh, and I am both a 1% er and a 15% tax rate....
G_Rock....you're not accounting for the fact that he most likely had some favorable "insider" information to assist him in managing his investments. Historically, the investments of our congresspersons outperform the market by a little over 12%. I doubt that his risk was 50/50.
G-Rock, see post #2.8
g_rock how do you know if he even paid taxes on that income. you are given him a lot of credit that he really want to and will pay taxes on income he made or didn't make
@
JCB-1236504
Sorry to bust your idiot bubble cav, but playing within the "rules", set up by our beloved IRS, is not against the law. You know what should be? people who are to stupid to use whatever legal means necessary to defund the government. You pay as much tax as possible OK? I'll use whatever legal means I have to pay as little as possible.
The Rules were created by rich congressmen to protect theirs and their buddies riches. The IRS wrote the rules to implement what Congress had passed. They have never had any intention of playing fair let alone paying their fair share. They make the rules to enrich themselves.
"Romney would flip flop our Nation for a dime" !!!
Patriotic American U.S.A. Polly want a cracker. If you learned some business, economics or financial information, you wouldn't be half as dumb.
wilsonaide
Actually I know about business, economics, and financial information - and I'm not half as dumb, what about you? This whole story about corporations paying 35% is pure BS - most companies pay 0% or like pharmaceutical companies paying 6%
Let's take state taxes - they set up offices for these poor uninformed people and if they get a sharp one - well they hire them to ward off the lessers
Three floors of attorneys against any rise in taxes - who do you think wins?
So wilsonade - I've been there and know the games corporations play and also a person like Romney has the best tax attorneys to shield his income, why because he bought them
I'm sure the vast majority of those folks you talk to and tell them you've been outta a job for a while as well, would be more than happy to defend you having to do nothing, make millions and only pay 15% to what they have to endure by receiving Unemployment benefits and constantly being regarded as the lowliest in the land, who worship at the feet of the Food Stamp President and personally aspire to do nothing else in their life but get a couple hundred dollars a month from the government.
Yeah, boy - those lowlifes sure are living high on the hog at your expense, right Allen? Try going down to your local unemployment office or social services bureau and actually talking to some. You might actually learn something - even the Grinch and Scrooge wised up in the end, you know.
Romney paid over $7.5 Million dollars in taxes in 2010. How much did you pay? This country was established as a capitalistic democracy because of unfair taxation. Why should the rich who inherited or used their energy, brains, ability and sweat not use the unfair taxation laws to keep as much as possible?
You win a $100,000 lottery and you have to pay 39%. You work in a country that doesn't have a reciprocal income tax treaty with the U.S. you have to pay income tax in both countries. The tax code in 1960 was 90% tax on $400,000. In theory if you paid straight taxes, you only got $40,000 to take home. Every rich person has to have a smart accountant to keep him abreast of the tax changes and court rulings.
Who is better to spend your money the government that flushes it down the crapper or you?
And where Romney invests his money, it creates jobs or pays off debts. You never heard of triple exempt municipal bonds? If no body buys those bonds, the cities and states go bankrupt.
Nobody faults this man for being wealthy, or even for legally paying a lower tax rate. But what we fault him for is having the audacity to think that he can offer a fair and impartial representation of even the slimmest majority of Americans. Absolutely ludicrous.
I believe we are witnessing one of the messiest political faceplants in American history, unfolding in excrutiatingly slow motion. The agony of defeat indeed. This one will be one for the record books.
That, and Herman Cain winning in South Carolina next week.
Nice try, Mitt. Right now the tax code has the same rate for interest, most dividends and capital gains. If Gingrich's plan wants to have a zero tax on capital gains, that does not mean that the wealthiest people will pay zero taxes on ALL their income. I'm not debating the merits of a lowering of the capital gains rate (it has already been lowered from its historical 20% to the current 15%), but are we really supposed to believe that 100% of wealthy people's income is from capital gains?
Good day Steeler,
In Canada the effective rate on capital gains is 21% and darn it the wealthy are still becoming wealthier.
today's 3rd possible spam block is- nstaboth river
Steeler - 100% of people who have no job, but get income through past investments.
As you know Steeler, Romney has not been employed in several years. So where do you see a stream of regular, non passive income flowing?
I have many clients that have nothing but capital gain income. I bet you do too.
In fact I got one guy that only invests in tax free miuni bonds.
You know how much income tax he pays?
No Steelerfan
We are not supposed to believe that 100% of wealthy people's income is from capital gains. Many wealthy are retired...media misses this point all the time. So of course much of their income is capital gains, but also dividends, interest, and muni bond income...along with social security...maybe a pension. Mix that all up and 0% muni bond tax, 15% div and capital gains...and then add the pension or SS income. Unless the pension or SS is huge...it won't move the needle up much. But so what.
We don't tax wealth. We tax income. $4 million in retirement assets sitting earning divs and occasionally throwing off some cap gains is not taxed heavily. Big deal. We really going to raise taxes on every retiree getting div checks? They paid tax when they earned this money, now they just need to live off it- and off the lousy 2% interest they can receive on these investments.
My point was that Romney was suggesting that if you cut the capital gains rate to 0 that the wealthiest would pay NO income taxes:
"Romney addressed that argument to an extent, noting his opposition to Gingrich's proposal to eliminate all capital gains taxes:
"You’d have individuals – the Warren Buffett argument -- Warren Buffett, Bill Gates would probably pay no taxes at all," he said. "Today they probably pay 15 percent. Very high-income people of this country pay roughly 15 percent of taxes if their resources are coming from investments and under their plan it would go to zero. I just don’t think that’s the right course."
I find this a disingenuous defense of the status quo. I don't agree with the status quo and don't believe interest and dividends should receive a preferential rate.
Somehow I suspect Steeler, a tax attorney , is fully aware of all of that T-Rex.
Of course all the libbies here know Mitt has been unemployed for years. No regular earning.
But I wonder - who makes more in capital gains every year - Mitt or Pelosi? Or Reid, or Geitner, or Lew?
.
4 mil seems like a lot of money to be sitting on. We'll be lucky to have some hundred thousands in retirement fund to last us a few years. Yes, they can afford higher taxes on income from the stash...
Oh, and I advocate putting capital gains taxes back to 29%. Most people do not make this type of income because they live paycheck to paycheck. IF you have a 401K, it is income tax deferred, not subject to cap gains taxes. If I had a few million lying around, I suppose I'd invest to avoid paying high taxes. But that's the problem. Instead of creating businesses and creating JOBS, (riskier investments) rich people are stashing the money in the stock market and bonds... There is a fundemental problem in this country with where wealth is being utilized. It isn't going where it needs to go as long as it is cheaper to play the market vs. starting a business that helps all.
mine is.
JCB--REALLY? MOST of your income is from Capital gains? See, I'd GUESS that most of Romney's is from dividends and capital gains.
There IS a difference.
Why shouldn't Capital Gains simply be taxed as part of your income? If your capital gains bumps you into the next tax bracket, oh well so be it. I get tired of people saying it's double taxation, it plain is NOT. The original investment is never re-taxed, merely your revenue derived from that investment. So explain to me why this is wrong? FWIW more than 65% of my income is from Capital Gains and it's never made any sense to me to have this aspect of earnings be taxed at a different rate than any other income.
While it is vogue to suggest that capital gains is ONLY benefiting the rich this is absolutely not true.
Many employees today get to buy their company stock at a reduced price and eventually they sell that stock and then pay capital gains tax on the difference between what they bought the stock for and sold it for minus expenses. These employees are just typical everyday folks. I was one of them. That money paid for my son's education. Is that bad? My husband was a mid level manager and I was not working outside the home because we lived in an extremely depressed town. NO JOBS.
True the rich derive a much bigger piece of the pie because their capital gains are much larger than mine were or ever will be, but the benefit was afforded to me as well. Raising the capital gains hurts all investors - big and small.
Those of you that think that capitol gains should be eliminated for gains above $100,000 need to reconsider what happens if you decide to sell your home when you retire and do not reinvest in another residence. But, to the question of Romney and his income, it seems that all of the respondents ignore the fact that he is not advocating the reduction of capitol gains for the wealthy to drop to "0". That is Newt's position. He also is advocating a reduction in SS and Medicare benefits for wealthy Americans so the system can remain solvent for those who need it most. Of all the Republican Candidates he is the most guarded in calling for an immediate reduction in income tax for the wealthy and suggested in the debate that as spending drops in Washington that a reduction in income tax for the wealthy might be in order. In fact, of all the Repub candidates he has not been a strong advocate for they type of tax reform that the others are calling for to make the system "more fair". The fact that he has not worked in a steel mill or butcher shop does not mean that he does not understand how the economy works and what is needed to entice businesses to hire more people. As popular as it is these days to bash the rich and the CEOs. etc. how many poor people do you know who create jobs? How many jobs have union leaders created? The fact is that unless we nationalize all of the jobs in this country and become another Soviet Union or Communist China, we still are dependent upon the private sector and people investing in that sector for our jobs.
jdgregory, there's a $250K exclusion for taxation on the sale of your main residence if you're single or $500K if filing joint. And there's no limit as to how many times you claim that exemption provided you meet the criteria of having lived in it as your main residence for 2 years.
ideologyspoilstheview Study up on Canadian tax code. If you invest the money outside of Canada, you don't have to pay taxes on the income. With the U.S. tax code, you have to pay income on income from offshore sources.
And what the hell is so bad about keeping as much as you can legally keep? The rich are rich because they used their intelligence, ingenuity, skills, ability and drive.
They should be held up as a model to emulate!
wilsonaide - no the rich are rich because most of them inherited the seed money to become more rich not like you or I
And they use the system to keep more than they deserve I guess you think the British Monarchy are entitled
Entitlements - isn't this what you call welfare? What's the difference?
Mitt likes to continue his talking point of not paying taxes on investment, savings and so forth for the "middle class" as a means of addressing wealth.
My household makes good change albeit a 1 income family, but I know that 'ain't no wealth statistics' gonna change if all he is going to do for me is reduce the taxes that I pay for investments, savings. I don't make enough gains via savings to even be considered for taxation and our only investment is an employer based 401(k) which I would presume is the vast majority for those who are fortunate enough to have anything to invest.
Give me some statistics at least to support why such measures are going to create wealth for the "middle class".
Wealth just doesn't appear. You have to work for it. You need the intelligence, drive, ability and skill to learn how to build it.
Once you have it, you need the services of a good accountant who can help you hold on to as much as possible and make it grow.
Are you going to give it to Obummer so he can flush it down the crapper?
Aren't you the best person to spend what you earn and not the government?
WILLARD HAS 250 MILLION. Obama is not even close- at all. how stupid are you repubs?
Romney pays less taxes than the average middle class american . less taxes than our military personnel of course rmney and his sons dodge military service
and when will we see his tax returns. what about the interest on his holdings? how about that extra ten years of pay from Bain- you know the co. that destroys co's to make a huge profit or to create jobs in China.
Exactly, rich. Not to mention most of Obama's personal money comes from writing books, not being a professional pirate.
So, did Willard pay 15% taxes on the money he pocketed from other peoples' pension plans when he bankrupted their companies?
rich you hit the nail right on the head.......this is what is exactly wrong with the system right now.
Wrong.
Romney pays taxes at lower rate.
The IRS does not collect rates- it collects dollars.
So, you do the math. Got a calculator? Figure out the difference in DOLLARS between 28% of $250,000, and 15% of $250 million.
That's all the IRS is interested in, by the way.
Also, if Obama earns less that Romney- so what? I'm pretty sure the politics of envy is going to be a non-starter with the majority of the electorate.
Do some math... Assume a 2% earning (likely to be much higher on the type of investments available at that level...) on the $250Mil, that it $5 Million. Now take 15%, that is $750K.
How many "average middle class americans" or "militarypersonnel" pay over $750K a year in federal taxes????
They won't answer that question, CPU. It defeats their argument.
S'okay. See, the average member of the electorate is going to focus on the number of dollars the Romney's paid- not the rate. Which is good, since the IRS collects dollars- not rates.
They've been yelling for the tax return release under the misapprehension that the average voter will, in fact, focus on the rate paid- because their entire argument depends on misinformation. They have an absolute need to try to impress on people that somehow, people who earn more than average stole it from others.
When the electorate focuses on the eye-popping dollar figure, their entire argument will go flat- they just can't figure out why that should be. After all, they've done everything in their power to stoke class envy, haven't they?
Who would have ever believed electing Obama would lead to arguments like this.
Rich--Obama reported/paid taxes on 4 MILLION in income for each of the past 4 years, all on proceeds from his books. That means he, too, is still reaping the reward of past efforts.
And Obama's entire 'career' since graduating from Law School has been for various government agencies.
The jealousy over how much money someone has made is AMAZING.
Can any of you rich-groupie crowd explain why a working man should pay 7.65% Medicare/SS taxes PLUS a 25% tax rate while an investor with unearned income should only pay 15% and NO Medicare/SS?
I don't think talking "gross dollars" is going to cover up the smell of that cess-pool.
MOmaid
'nuf said
CPU and No Joe, you missed the real point. The point that average Joe will see through. You only argue in favor of the rich and try to deflect that Americans... dollar for dollar, pay more taxes than the wealthy.
Paying 0.15% or $750K of $5mil is alot more appealing than paying roughly $.30 cents average per taxable dollar. Why does the wealthy deserve to have a tax benefit greater than his/her middleclass contemporary? There are no sound reasons to continue to support this premise any longer.
Some people say that they've never seen a poor man hiring. Well, in 2011, I haven't seen the rich either and I damn sure haven't seen anything trickle down except BS.
The tax system is set up for both earned and unearned income. The unearned income is what is left over to invest after PAYING TAXES on earned income. You can't invest money until you either work and make earned income and then save a portion of that, or you are given money that once upon a time was also derived from earned income. The reason the unearned rate is lower is because the investor already paid taxes on the original sum and now that person is living off that savings. I believe this is a plan all of us would someday like to be on, yes?
Oprah has repeatedly over the years had this conversation about investing and debt. Her policy was to pay yourself first which means putting something aside to invest and grow big and to live off of someday when you can no longer work, or choose not to work.
Again, we need investors that are willing to put their savings into start-up businesses or those that are floundering. You may not like how floundering companies are put back together, meaning downsizing and thus loss of jobs, but for many they only way to survive is to make those cuts. Often companies wait until it is almost too late instead of being pro-active and making the harder decisions earlier. If balance is restored often times rehiring is possible in the future.
In 2000, Intel laid off 10,500 employees. The largest in their history. Obviously, Otellini, now on Obama's job council, felt that company was bloated and needed downsizing. This happens a lot in big companies because they adopt the internal philosophy of building an empire. So each manager each year adds staff to make his job more important and increase his department. I have worked in HR and know the drill. However, Intel has been building plants and adding jobs over the past year or so because they realigned their cost structure.
On the other hand Hostess, did not cut union staff back in 2004 when they filed for reorganization and now they are back in the red and will this time need to make the hard steps which will mean wages and benefits for those union workers will need to be cut. If they had been pro-active before maybe now they wouldn't be having to do cuts that will be drastic.
rich-3241763 If you could do some research on the net, you would know that Romney gross about $50 Million and paid about $7.5 Million in taxes. I do believe that is a teeny bit more than what the middle class American pays. How much did you pay?
How many billions did Obummer flush down the crapper on union hand outs? over $3 billion. How much did Obummer flush down the crapper on the more than 30 renewable energy companies that went bust he had the U.S. government invest in? $3.9 billion
Who can best spend your money? You or Obummer?
capecodmom You actually believe that Obummer wrote those books? Did Obummer sell you a bridge at the same time. Even his publisher denies he wrote the books. He had a ghostwriter!
Obummer used his political position and the fact he is 1/2 black to get his books sold. What chance would a white shoe salesman have to get the same books sold.
Obummer is more of a thief. He used his political position to enrich himself without doing any work. Tell me who paid for Obummers college summer vacations and college breaks?
Obummer never had a job he had to sweat at, and he never had a business. He went from college to law school to a research job at a small law firm to politics to president. How would he ever know what a worker has to do to make a buck?
Obummer never learned to run a business, fill out tax forms, learn economics or finances. He coasted every step of the way.
Pedestrian-in-SF You had better have plenty of facts to back that up. Unions steal pension plans. Not the companies. Funded pension plans are outside bankruptcy proceedings.
It would help if you learned a little how Bain worked and how the bankruptcy proceedings are conducted.
Contrary to that it is libel, actionable and can get you individually in very serious trouble.
TheCPUWizard No wizard and definitely unable to do searches. Romney earned about $50 million in 2010 and paid 15% on that or about $7.5 Million. That is not enough taxes for one man to pay?
Now look at how Obummer has flushed taxes down the crapper. $3 billion to unions. $3.9 billion in over 30 failed government funded renewable energy companies. $500,000,000 to a Finish Car company in Finland to build competing electric cars in Finland after the car company outfoxed Biden.
As quickly as Obummer gets the taxes he flushes it down the crapper!
Who is better able to spend your income the government or you?
Chuck-414139 First learn to write. Romney paid 15% not .15%. .15% is 1/100th of 15% and if you look it up Romney earned about $50,000,000 in 2011 and will pay about $7.5 million in taxes. The wealthy deserve more money because they worked for it, have the intelligence, ability, education and ability. They are to be emulated. In what country in the world can you start with an idea and make millions?
wilsonaide - Yikes. Deep breath, now.
Mitt Romney is starting to look more and more like Ted Bundy
The wild eyed desperate mad man has been cornered
Co-incidently, Romney owns 6 homes worth an estimated 400 million dollars, he lives in a 14 bedroom home on a lake, and claims he is a working stiff, more like a mormon liar, who can B.S with the best of them.
Boy you Libtards are sure jealous when people have more money than you do, go stand on a street corner and beg that's what your best at.
Not at all.
We just don't understand why income earned buying and selling stocks has preference over income earned laboring in a factory.
Mark Thomas:
Exactly. Couldn't have said it better myself.
Yes, why would you get taxed less to do nothing than showing up to work. And think of this, if you actually have to work two jobs to make it, it just piles insult on top of insult. And this is what the people supporting the GOP want for our country. We finally get a true idea of what OWS is protesting. Its a shame in this country the wealthy make the rules to benefit themselves and screw everyone else.
Additionally, none of willards passive income is subject to "payroll" taxes.
How convenient..
Cliff, with the use of the word libtard and the nonconjuctive your for you're, one wonders what you are doing to make millions.
It is Ok to be rich. But to be rich and lie about being a workin man, or middle class is misrepresentation. Romney should stop trying to be something that he is not.He is making himself look phoney you can see that on the look on his face. The man is trying to be something that he is not.
Cliff,
So why not tell everyone what the Mitt and the Republican party as done for you?
I cannot stand it when someone tries to talk about Investment Income, specifically income from the Sale of Stock (LT or ST Gains), and accuses others of being "dumb" or not understanding it. A person buys stock from their broker, they then sell it and makes a profit or incurs a loss. If over a year has transpired from purchase to sale, it is LT, less than 1 year it is ST. So for you intelligent Stock Traders, if this stock is not Original Issue (Company with an IPO-Initial Public Offering), please tell me how the purchase or the sale has anything to do with creating new Capital. The person who bought the Stock as Original Issue, they are the ones who put their money into the New Company, to get it going. They are the ones who should be rewarded with a Sweetheart Capital Gains Rate. When someone buys the stock off from the market, and then makes a profit, the only investment there is for that specific person. And if that is the case, the profit (or loss) should be treated at the ST, or Ordinary Rate.
Of course the other problem is all of the Big-wig CEOs who take their compensation in stock. Huh? Their annual compensation is $50,000,000 (yes, that is 50 million) and they take $500,000 in salary and $49,500,000 in stock. Now they hold onto the stock for one year and sell it for the LT Gains Rate. Where is the Capital creation here? Instead of paying tax at a Marginal Rate of 35%, they pay it at the 15%. So you have earned income being taxed at 15%. What's that, they take a chance with holding onto the stock for 1 year? Don't think so. They have Sweetheart Deals to guarantee that if the stock price falls, the company will buy the stock at the original amount, or $49,500,000.
These are the loopholes that need to be done away with. Earned Income is Earned Income and it should be addressed/taxed the same. It it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck.
Mitt is unemployed and has no income. He actually claimed that he was living in the basement of his son's home when he vote for Scott Brown for the Senate. All of you who had to move in with your children when your unemployment ran out can surely identify with that.
fastedd If Romney owned 6 homes worth $400,000,000 then along with his other assets he would be worth billions no? Yet all the sources on the internet places his wealth between $180,000,000 and $250,000,000. And your hero Clinton why is he declared to be worth $200,000,000 just about what Romney is worth and why is Hillary Clinton worth $30 million, more than George Bush Senior?
Mark Thomas-371822 You don't understand why going to school for 7 years, on the job training and working up the ladder learning as you go having the brains, intelligence, ability, drive and capability to manage thousands of employees, working 70 hours a week, is not cause for earning more than a high school graduate who works 9 to 5 five days a week and goes home and watches www at night?
You sure are a good candidate for being an occupier.
sarah-3519311 ditto what I said to chuck. Would you go to school for seven years, work summers and breaks, work your way up the ladder, work 70 hours a week, be able to manage thousands of employees and make the right business and financial decisions?
I didn't think so. Go back to the occupiers.
Sheila-846240 ever think about going to night school and getting an education to make you more desirable in the work place so you could get one good paying job, in stead of moaning and groaning. I am going to need two capable computer savvy full time secretaries. Good pay and profit sharing. Intelligent, ambitious and can work amiably with me.
Your attitude is poor.
K1200RS It would behoove you to look at Romney's disclosure statement for 2010 on the net and find out what percentage of his income in unearned income. All earned income and that is most of his income is subject to payroll taxes. Mater of fact, if you were to spend time looking and not talking through the top of your hat, you would find out that he pays income tax of $7.5 million dollars this year 2011. All his money is in a blind trust.
ted patrick Stop making yourself look foolish. Romney worked his summers as a security guard for Chrysler and worked 2 1/2 years as a Mormon preacher in France. Did you go to college and did you offer to work free for your church for 2 1/2 years?
Obummer refuses to say how he spent his highschool and college summers and who paid for his highschool and college expenses.
And remember that Obummer sat through his Pastor Wrights anti American sermons blaming America for the World Trade Center bombings! Obummer also sat through his Pastor Wright's Jew Baiting sermons. Then as president, Obummer gave Pastor Wright a specially created government job. No where can I find his salary or duties.
So yes Romney knows how to get his hands dirty and knows how to pay his dues to Christianity.
What about the more than $300,000.00 a year that he makes in "speaking fees"? Is that not income?
wilsonaide, the only one looking foolish around here is you with your six, in-line, successive posts. Dude, have you considered taking-up drinking to help suppress that desire to push the post comment button?
Kind of sad that people as rich as Mitt pay 15% on money he didn't work for last year, unless you call cashing investment income checks "work", while the garbage man pays 25%.
But the punch line is that he thinks it should be even less than 15%.
He wants it at Zero.
No, he said 0% is unfair. 1% for the 1%, I'm sure he can live with that and say its fair, with a straight face!
W. Buffet told us the mega-rich, overall, paid a very low rate on their vast wealth.
Now, even with confirmation, the Wal-Mart conservative crowd will continue to exist in irrational denial.
Which of course, is why they aren't taken seriously..
"""It’s probably closer to the 15 percent rate than anything.""
To keep things in perspective, the "tax expenditures" (write-offs, etc.) that the Romneys of America use to avoid paying for government services and amenities - i.e. avoid paying in taxes - would almost fully fund the Medicare/Medicaid and Social Security programs annually.
Again: the rich avoid paying their share of income taxes each year ("tax expenditures") in an amount nearly equal to the amount the U.S. spends on Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security - you know those aggravating "entitlements" the TEA/GOP party is always complaining about and trying to reduce or eliminate ("get a job and stop freeloading off the government...") - EVERY YEAR!
Now, honestly... which is on the government dole in reality??????
Not as stupid as yo uthink (sic)
Actually, no matter how much or little the wealthy pay, it is still WAY more than half the country pays (ZERO).
And that is the definition of 'being on the dole'.
What the Romneys pay in REAL ESTATE taxes alone is funding schools for kids whose parents pay NONE to help support their schools.
I'm nowhere near the 1%-ers, but I pay more in real estate taxes than I do in income tax, and I pay more in STATE income taxes than I do Federal.
And because my home is PAID for (no mortgage deduction) and my kids grown, I don't have any deductions.
And I did that on an income of under $35K, and by living within my means. But RICH people paid for most of my kid's education. $7500 per kid per year is impossible for most to cover for ONE kid.
So, do not try to equate someone who is paying 15% of their income to anyone who, by virtue of poor decisions, pays NOTHING whatsoever, gets money back they never paid in, and gets all kinds of hand outs.
ONE is definitely on the dole. and it is not the 15%-er.
You should open your eyes MO, you have MISSED the entire point of my post.
I'll try to simplify.
It costs to have and operate a government - there are expenses involved.
These costs are funded through taxes; if you generate income, you pay a portion of what is generated to keep our government in operation - TAXES.
If you use and enjoy any of the myriad of benefits, programs, protections and ameneties our government provides, it is fitting and proper to do this.
But - I believe founded upon your position in most instances (that the dollar amounts are disproportionate) - the wealthy have pushed through the [far too] many laws and regulations to REDUCE the amount they pay to keep our government in operation and maintain this great nation.
They now are able to avoid paying for the benefits they utilize through these "tax expenditures."
If there were no such write offs/expenditures, we would NOT be faced with the tremendous national debt with which we are currently burdened, and we would NOT have to endure deficit spending to maintain the government to which American citizens are accustomed.
We have the best nation and government in the history of the world, and the programs, benefits, amenities, and protections are what make the U.S.A. the best and greatest.
Those who do not wish to pay, in my opinion, should cease and be prevented from enjoying and benefiting from the things the government provides.
And, the amount paid in really doesn't matter nearly so much as the percentage of income generated.
Now can you understand what I was attempting to say?
.
Clif 567- This is a co(k in the ass of every conservative paying more taxes than their elete master Mitt. Kneel biatch and take it! Worship your master!
LOL Go sit in the corner and cry, your pathetic.
Romney said he pays about 15 percent. Sounds like he pays cap gains. If Romney can eliminate the Cap. Gains tax like he says he will, he wont have to pay anything. Sweet.
Instead of bitching...demand a flat tax across the board. EVERYONE who is privileged to live in this country and reap the bennies... skin down their share.
The tax code is kaput, too complicated, full of holes like swiss cheese. Simplify the damn thing. As of now the top 1% pays 37% of the taxes... meanwhile 47% pays not a dime. Get real folks. And I'm just a Joe-blow 5 figure middle class dude supporting a family of four. EVERYONE needs to have skin in the game.
Your a parrot. An ignorant one..
Not a dime??
yes sally, payroll taxes ARE in fact taxes. And they are paid by ALL workers.
We won't even go into all the regressive taxes levied on consumers...
Time to get a clue..
employers pay all PAYROLL taxes - perhaps it's time you get a clue pal........
we pay payroll taxes state income taxes etc etc = the 47% pay no less then they can afford- however the super rich have loophole after loophole and earn their money without contributing often by investing in chinese companies or overseas businesses or buy manipulating the market- putting their profits before the country- traitors in my book-
That settles it. I don't know who I'm going to vote for but Mitt will NEVER get my vote. He's saying he pays at a 15% rate ... meanwhile I'm here at somewhere north of 25%. He has an army of accountants and lawyers .... I have turbo tax. He supports a platform that continues to cut rates for the wealthiest Americans while cutting the social services and benefits the rest of us receive.
It makes me sick ...
This guy can't fool any of the people any of the time. What a phony. He derides President Obama for wanting to raise taxes on the rich when they only pay 15% now! Strap on another 15% and this clown still doesn't pay what the average American family pays. It must be that we are just envious of the rich. The rich fat cats and their sense of entitlement makes me sick, bllllaaaahhhckkkk!
WRONG. His fedral tax payments are at least $750K/yr (assuming 2% Ror).. Tell me how many "average American families" pay upwards of $750K?
so what about 750 thousand? He can and Everyone pay a FLAT TAX of 35% no matter what one makes? No tax loop holes, etc... everyone pays! on the income... end of story! If one makes 1 million a year 35% taxed... $50,000 a year 35% tax... the individual making more benefits more under the present system... Plus 35% for someone making $50,000 is alot more out of the pocket than 35% for individuals making millions, hundreds of millions ETC!!! one has to tax the weathy the same % percentage as everyone else... for them to fill the PAIN in the pocket book!
John--IF everyone paid the same %, INCLUDING the 'bottom 50% who not only pay nothing, but get money/benefits BACK from the government in the form of 'entitlements' (and that is frequently an oxymoron) then the % would not NEED to be 35%.
Cain pushed his 9-9-9, Forbes pushed his 10% flat tax, and where they both come a cropper is that half the country pays NOTHING and gets money back.
TheCPUWizard
WRONG. His fedral tax payments are at least $750K/yr (assuming 2% Ror).. Tell me how many "average American families" pay upwards of $750K
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Don't try to use that argument. It's not a personal tax. It's a tax on your income, hence the name INCOME TAX. It's only logical to say that if you have more income, you pay more tax, since it is the income not is taxed, not the person. Want to pay less tax? Reduce your income.
you all who defend Flip Romney and the mega-rich prove my point exactly. You buy into their lies or you are one of the liars. They can have a 100% income tax rate but they don't pay income tax. Romney even gives away the income he is paid for speaking not out of the goodness of his heart but because it is taxed at a higher rate and he doesn't pay any of the higher rates. It is better for him financially to give away $100,000s rather then pay taxes on them because he can make way more off of investments. The rich fat cats only pay capital gains tax of 15%. Let me have a 15% actual tax payment and I'll do back flips.
Retardicans are just plain ignorant. It is not so much their corrupt politicians because they are a known entity. But it is the retardican voter ignorance that has caused the problems. The damage the retardican voters did in 2010 is being unwound but will take a while to undo. When a working class retardican votes for one of their clowns or exemplifies the good job they did in their eight years of destruction, their ignorance is demonstrative of an embedded ignorance in American society.
While I agree with your points, please stop calling our fellow citizens "retardicans." It reduces you to their level and insults people with learning disabilities.
I'll bet you $10,000 that Willy Mittens finds a way to wiggle out of releasing them even in April.
Hey Landslide Mitt, I'm not greedy. I'll take your last three years returns.
I really do not care about his tax returns anybody is better that Obama.
Mitts at the bottom of the dung heap. Even Perry is better.
you couldn't be more blindly wrong young Bama. The GOP preys on people like you who don't want to see he facts and just accept their point of view. What exactly has President Obama done that has hurt he country? Job growth for the past eleven consecutive months. GDP growth 30 consecutive months. US GDP strongest it has ever been in the history of the Nation. US dollar the strongest it has been since President Clinton was in office. Reduced deficits reducd debts and wanted to reduce them more this past Summer but Little Prince Cantor wouldn't stand for reducing the Nation's debt if it meant President Obama was right which he was. President Obama wants to reduce the size of government and has made health care available for more people at less costs to our Nation. He ended the Iraq war as he promised. Got OsamaBLaden. He pulled the Nation out of the Second Great Depression that the failed economic policies of the GOP caused. He wants a national job bank to rebuild our Nation's infrastructure because it will put people to work and will modernize and refurbish our Nation's infrastructure which badly needs it. I know the GOP hopes you and your fellows all vote out of bigotedl hatred but that is why we have the electoral college so no matter how many rednecks from Alabama vote against President Obama your state only gets to cast 9 votes. I never thought I'd say this but thank goodness for the electoral college.
G9 I happen to live in Georgia Like I said anybody is better than Obama.
BAMA_
so why not anybody other than the lying flip flopper Romney ? you want mubarek? you want Kim un yung?you want charles manson?
try getting a brain or work to get a nominee that YOU think will help the country. that gabage anybody but ( fill in the blank) is what got us in this mess. voters who know NOTHING and vote like idiots.
G-9 good thing you are not Pinocchio or you would need a crane to help you get around...were you trying to mis-represent every statistic or just the ones you remember.
And what is it, specifically, that you don't like about Obama, Bama?
none of my stats are wrong. The most troubling statistic is the GOP, with their failed economic policies of screwing the middle class to help the rich that they still cling to, caused the only two Great Depressions in our Nation's history and the Democrats have caused none. Speaks volumes to me.
Bwahaha! The rich pay a lower percentage of their income for taxes and the poor go off to fight the oil wars. Yet still people are dumb enough to vote for a republican. Truly this country is exceptional
You said a mouth full brother. The average Joe who votes for the GOP is voting rich while living poor.
so true and so sad.
Yet the rich pay significantly more dollars, and cost the country significantly less.
15 percent!!!!! *SCREAMING*
If he "estimates" it's at 15%, you can bet it's a whole lot lower than 15%.
I highly recommend this article on how to improve the economy. Whatever you do, don't vote for Mitt.
Well let's see, I pay about 28% on my income - being a small business with one employee, I also have to cover half of her Medicare and 2% more than she pays in Social Security taxes plus Unemployment Compensation (which I can't collect) and Workers Comp... so, my actual rate is quite a bit higher. Of course I also have to use a CPA to make sure my Subchapter S taxes are filed correctly which adds another grand to my total bill.
Now we have those with income based on "investments" (which most of us can no longer make since we're up to our eyeballs trying to pay our basic monthly bills) like Romney who only pay 15%... elitist isn't the word - robber baron's may be closer to reality.
And these are the people calling the shots... we're being driven in to the ground with their rules (like which light bulb we can buy) and they rake in the money hand over fist. Sickening to me...
I feel for you. If Congress truly wanted to help small businesses they would do away with the dreaded self-employment tax. It kills any dream of owning a small business. Think about how the US family does nt get even half the treatment US companies get when it comes to taxes. How would the US consumer and the US family do if we were permitted to deduct any necessary and reasonable expense paid on behalf of our family? Businesses are permitted to deduct all reasonable and necessary expenses but families can not. Which politicians are for the families again? Think what would happen to consumer confidence if the US family could deduct from their income all monies paid for groceries, car payment, all necessary insurances, utilities, mortgage payment(not just points and interest), gas, clothing, school supplies, toiletries, laundry detergent...etc. The Flip Romneys of the World deceive and try to make it out they pay more but they don't pay anything compared to a truly small business owner or the average US family./p>
these scumbacks will say anything to get elected.my tax is 25% romney and the other scums should be ashamed.
Clearly you are not taking full advantage of what is available to you. If your small business is a corporation, then grant yourself stock holdings. Keep them for a year before cashing them back in...bingo only 15% on that income.
Also if you are successful, and leave a legacy business when you retire, all of your income from that will be at the exact same percentage Mitt (who is alreate retired from business)...Do you want your own taxes to be increased?
g-9 "Kills any dream of owning a small business"? Uh, then why are there so many small businesses out there?
G-9,
I am with you my friend. I have a (very) small business and have two employees (besides myself).
I pay 15% FICA on my OWN salary, plus another 7% FICA on my employees' salary, plus my marginal tax rate of 28%.
This comes out to around 49% marginal tax rate.
Most people have no idea what you and I go through.
One of the problems as I see it, Athiest, is that the politicians have been able to redefine small business as 500 employees or less. They help the corporation with 450 employees way more then the average guy who wants to act on a dream or an idea they want to pursue. People who have truly small businesses that employ themselves and maybe a few others get the royal screw job. The people with the best intentions get in over their heads because of the self-employment tax. And don't forget that it all has to be paid prepayment based on your estimated income every 1/4 or pay more penalties and interest on money you don't even owe yet. Is CPUWizard one of Flip Romney's sons?
Yep..and that's why I sold my small business and now I am happily employed. I get vacation, 401k, and health insurance...Owning a small business sucked. My employees were better off than me.
You pay exactly 7% more than what you paid as an employee because you pay the employer portion on your own salary. Nothing more, nothing less. I can show you my CPA license as validation that I know of what I speak. So, you can drop the dramatic hysteria while you sing - nooooobody knows, the trouble I've seen.
If your tax rate is 28%, you must be taking a pretty decent salary. You pay 28% on the amount between 83K and 175K.
Basically your saying how horrible it is that, after deducting all the expenses of running your business, that you are stuck with a measly 83-175 thousand dollars a year.
So, que the band.....Nooooobody knows....
What about the hallowed deficit and debt, Poobah? Specifics. Just another give-away to the rich. (Yawn)