Where's SC republicon representative Joe Wilson to shout "YOU LIE!"???

Obviously, his party needs him now.

Newt knows the golden rule of republicanism is "No talking out of school when the mic is on" He knows that free speak is only is free when you are spinning lies about your democratic opponent not telling the truth about your Republican opponent who is their last hope of defeating Obama! Remember the Republican's singular objective since Obama won has been to defeat them. Governing for the people or morals and principles are not even second on the list.

What a stupid question to ask if they are trying to avoid conflict. Too much fox news has fogged their brain.

Let's all agree that it is time to "Ban Fox News !" Then everyone would hear only one side of the "debate". Brilliant !

So, can anyone here tell me what the difference is between what Romney did at Bain Capital and what our government did with GM?

I know I will hate myself for asking this, but, isn't a debate where you try and differentiate yourself from other candidates? Proving you are the most electable one?

The audience, prompted at first by the Huckabee show’s executive producer, clapped and cheered at the directive.

This just proves how easily the conservative crowd can be remote controlled and brain washed.

Let's all agree to "ban fox news" so that we can actually have a debate. The outright lies that sewer-hole pumps out buy the lake full is such a brain-washing factor for people on the right, that they can't even see the debate when it happens.

FreedomRingsLoud,

I can tell you. Our government invested in GM and Chryslar in order to keep autoworkers employed, and keep us from sliding into a Depression. All three American car companies are profitable now, for the first time since 2004.

Bain Capital took apart some companies, sold equipment, laid off workers, and stuck the federal government with covering pension funds, while walking away with a profit. No industries were saved thanks to these "investments."

phine,

Yes it is, but that's not what they wanted here, they just wanted the candidates to express their viewpoints on a stage altogether. You know, the whole Kum-By-Yah thing the establishment wants now that they feel Mitts is unbeatable...

FreedomRingsLoud

So, can anyone here tell me what the difference is between what Romney did at Bain Capital and what our government did with GM?

GM involved substantial risk and was aimed specifically to save the industry and jobs. Bain's decisions come only when risks are minimized or non-existent and the outcomes for people are of no concern as long as profits are assured. They justify their morality (or lack of same) with "if we didn't do it, someone else would."

Kinda different.

Amy,

If you have to explain the difference to FreedomRings I doubt he'll understand the response. He/ she lives in their own world of realities.

How is telling the truth a jab? I guess at this event the motto was, We don't have to tell the truth at this meeting..... Were all republicans here. So you can keep your truths to yourselves.

@FreedomRingsLoud, watch this and your question will be answered: http://www.webcasts.com/kingofbain/

There are some inaccuracies in the piece, but the basic premise of what Romney did at Bain Capital is still accurate and is a complete opposite of what Obama did with GM.

Jesse G-341147,

So name some of these corporate saints that are more concerned with creating jobs than turning a profit? What planet do you come from?? That's how free markets work when we're not in your fantasy land...

They all do it, honey. Most are envious of Romney. No doubt Blingrich really has peni$ envy for him too.

btw, congratulations on the very appropriate booing of Blingrich today and the pointed question to lay bare his hypocrisy!!

Amy B. Portland, ME

I can tell you. Our government invested in GM and Chryslar in order to keep autoworkers employed, and keep us from sliding into a Depression. All three American car companies are profitable now, for the first time since 2004.

OK Amy, I'll play.

Our government didn't "invest" in GM. It bought bailed it out. Now, when it bought it they fired Rick Wagoner. First job loss. Then during its restructuring they closed down 2,600 dealerships, over 42% of their 6,200 dealerships. Estimates have this at over 25,000 jobs lost. Before the bailout GM employed over 266,000 employees, today it employs 209,000, a loss of 57,000 jobs or 22% of its workforce. Now, how many GM bondholders were ruined when our government decided they would not get their LEGALLY afforded remains of GM's holdings during the investment buyout? Why was the union afforded ownership in the company. I know it's been disguised as a "trust", but lets be honest, it was crony-capitalism at its most outrageous. Bondholders invested twice as much as the government and only got a fifth of what the government and union did. We own 61% of the company, and it still owes $14 billion dollars.it has been posting profits so why aren't we being repaid the balance? The price of GM stock is down to $24 from its IPO of $33.

Bain Capital took apart some companies, sold equipment, laid off workers, and stuck the federal government with covering pension funds, while walking away with a profit. No industries were saved thanks to these "investments."

Hmmmmm, doesn't this sound amazingly similar to what happened to GM?

Now, tell me how many companies did Bain Capital do what you claim?

How many bigger or better companies emerged from Bain like Staples who emplys 90,000 people and Sports Authority with 450 stores?

Speaking of no industries being saved thanks to these "investments." How does Solyndra, Mojave Solar Power and Tonopah Solar Energy fit into this ideology?

LMarcT

Kinda different.

How is GM's profits being privatized to the unions but losses being socialized to the taxpayer different?

At least with Bain, none of my money was used unless I want to by investing in them. I had no say in Solyndra, Raser Technologies or other "investments" by our government.

Nice RNC/TEA spin free.

I think Rush would be proud of you.

Really? You have to ask the difference between Baine and Obama with GM?

Romney would have fired all the employees and sold the factories for what they're worth.

Ha this is too funny, or too sad, not sure which, but it speaks volumes about who the real koolaid drinkers are. The three wise monkeys debate format, where nobody is allowed to hear no evil, see no evil, or speak no evil about the "glorious leader". Was this debate in South Carolina or North Korea, are we talking about Kim Jong or Mitt Romney. So republicans can denigrate the president of the US often with little regard fot the truth, but can must disregard the truth if it bodes negative for one of their candidates, it is beyond hypocrisy. Have some self respect vote straight democratic in 2012.

He Amy - why dont you move to a socialist country there are plenty of them - greece is looking for people just like you - you are crazy to think it is ok for the gov to take my tax dollars and give it to GM because they chose to overpay the union and the board of dir over paid everyone in management for years - BAILING OUT THIS COMPANY WAS NOTHING MORE THAN BULL@!$%# CRONEY CAPITALISM - your pres needs the union vote that is it - But you idiots don't know @!$%# about economics - you are actually saying it was ok to give 50 billion to bail out these companies instead of them following the chapter 11 process. Saved jobs really - we may as well have given all of the employees a couple million dollars and closed the shop - they are making money sure but 100,000 million compared to the 50 billion they were given to bail out poor management is pure bull@!$%# and for you to praise it shows your stupidity. It is people like you that will cause the ultimate demise of the country - just dumb

Bosslimo

Romney would have fired all the employees and sold the factories for what they're worth.

REALLY?

Did he tell you that? Or is that just another one of your indoctrinated talking points about VC's nowadays from the DNC and Chris "Tingles" Matthews.

The most amusing part about you limp Libbies is that most of you didn't , and still don't, know what a VC, angel investor, equity investor or other capital investor was until this issue was brought up.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

And now of course, you are all the unbiased assessors of these types of investment vehicles. I wonder if you were all so "involved" in the mid to late 90's when VC's were driving one of the greatest bubbles in our history. I'm sure you all know that Silicon Valley and Massachusetts are the #1 and #2 VC states in the country and hundreds of billions are invested in all those "Green Initiative" jobs you so cherish and believe will be the industry that will drive us out of the ditch Obama got us stuck in.

So Me-sane how do you feel about AIG, the banks, and any of the wall street firms that were bailed out with taxpayer money and then management immediately paid each other millions in bonuses, do you propose they should have been forced into banruptcy or is it just the fact that a few hourly wage unions jobs were saved along with outrageously overpaid executives and millions of non union jobs.

FreedomRingsLoud

Why would you assume he would tell me that? Don't you know what Romney did? Crap, it's all over the news.

You are going to have a hard time swinging both ways here. Either you believe Romney would have dismantled GM and sold it for profit, just like the republicans advocate when they say that it should have died or believe that he would have saved GM the way Obama did. Which is it?

You are much like the republicans today, caught between a rock and a hard place. You are either a die hard job killer for profit or you are an Obama sympathizer.

Next, you'll derail the issue with some right-wing rhetoric painting the president as a socialist who is against big business and, in the next breathe, chastise him for bailing out big business. If it helps your argument, you have no one to blame but the painters of the picture you're looking at, the republicans.

Had they focused on helping the nation instead of insuring the president is a one-term one, your arguments would be much easier to defend.

Very well said Bosslimo, now that I think about it Romney is the perfect flip floping no conviction candidate to represent the party of self contradiction.

Those that focus on politics and those that focus on day-to-day living are different crowds.

FreedomRingsLoud is well knowledged in his post. But the average voter knows not nor cares little about such details. All they are aware of is the picture painted. Thanks to his adversaries, Romney and his history at Baine are the issue.

It is left up to Mitt to explain his Baine issue in a believable way. However, already he has fumbled that ball (I enjoy firing people...). Will people remember the rest of his statement? I'm sure the spin doctors will make sure they don't.

So, whats left for the average voter to decide on? Obama saving GM or Romney killing factories for profit?

Bosslimo

No rock, no hard place.

The true free-market has winners and losers. Market forces determine that, not government using tax payer dollars under the pretext of "helping".

Our government had no more right to bail GM out than it did to bail out the "Too-Big-To-Fail" financials. Nor should it be subsidizing ANY industry with tax dollars. The airline industry is an never-ending example of the incompetence of that nonsense. Please don't embarrass yourself by telling me the "economists" claimed these were necessary to save our economy from going off some mythical cliff. These are the exact same "economists" that never saw the bubble that caused the collapse coming in the first place. Outside of Peter Schiff, Nouriel Roubini, Jim Rogers and others none of the self-proclaimed "authorities" predicted any of this so how can anyone believe their ability to predict any outcome?. But I digress.

VC's don't force anyone. The usual agreement (contract) is over a hundred pages long.

There is always a contract and you better know every word in it and exactly what it means. The VC is in the business to make money, just like everyone else. Your naiveté is NOT their concern. It shouldn't be if you own the business, it's YOUR business, the buck stops here. Outside of about a hundred different issues that can be included in your agreement the most costly one is what's called the "liquidation preference". Remember, venture capital is ALWAYS the most expensive money you can tap into. You don't have to, but if you do you better be ready to deal with all of it. This is where a team of lawyers are not only recommended but required.

Liquidation preference is a pre-agreed on amount that allows the VC to take out a certain multiple of his principal at any point they decide to get out or when your business is collapsing. This is usually taken BEFORE anyone else gets a single penny, including the owner or other investors. For instance, if the VC has an initial capital of $1 million dollars his liquidation preference can be any multiple of that if your company is sold. If the company is sold for $5 million it would seem the distribution should be $2.5 million dollars each. NOPE! If his liquidation preference is 3x, PLUS any dividends on his preferred stock, he could walk away with anywhere between $3million and $4 million dollars. Now, you still split the remaining $1 million dollars between you and your team on a 50/50 basis.

This is a simplified version obviously. In real life however the owner and the team may receive far less than the $500,000 due to all the "fine print" clauses.

Once again, it's all spelled out in the agreement from day one. If you don't know what you're getting into and get your hat handed to you at the end it's ONLY your fault.

VC's are instrumental in many pension funds and other retirement vehicles. Your own pension, more than likely, has been involved with some sort of venture capital at some point. As we see the pensions collapsing around the world today this is not a result of the investing members, its more than likely a liquidity problem that may or may not force execution of the pre-agreed contract. This is the cost of doing business. The cost of entrepreneurship. This is just one part of the risk businesses that you Liberals so despise need to take in order to succeed.

Does every business succeed? It would be nice. Urban legend claims that 80% of businesses fail after 3-5 years. More realistically this is around 50-60%. In a well structured and, even more importantly, well capitalized venture it is probably 20-30%. Regardless, the major cause of a business failure is under-capitalization. Contrary to what you Libbies like to believe starting, building and succeeding in business is not a "lucky" thing. Most millionaires weren't just sitting at home one day and a million dollars fell in their lap from the sky. 80% of millionaires are first generation. They took an idea, and created commerce with it. Many succeed but many more fail.

To downgrade the capitalist system just exposes your weakness in how our great economy was built. I guarantee you Apple, Virgin Air, Amazon and thousands of other businesses didn't become what they are today because of a family loan. More than likely they needed some level of seed money to become what they are today. As the old adage in business goes, "It takes money to make money". Get used to it. Don't demonize it, embrace it. It's probably how the job you're employed at started.

FreedomRingsLoud

Again I concede. I agree that your knowledge is only surpassed by your intellect.

However, it matters little. The average voter is unaware and more importantly, blissfully uninterested in your analogy. All they know is that a 1929 level depression was avoided, Romney killed jobs for profit, Gingrich divorced his wife on her death bed, Santorum wants to illegalize birth control, Ron Paul is a racist, and Obama had OBL killed.

Are these views true? The facts are construde by truth. Each have their own perception regarding facts.

Are the average voters told that Baine saved companies where it was profitable? Nope, all they see and hear is Romney stating, "I like to fire people". How about Romney's job plan? What happened to 999? What about the poster sized tax form?

You want spared the argument that financial experts claim the bailouts where needed. That is just like Romney wanting spared from his killing jobs image.

Your perception of me is also construde. I have not downgraded capitalism, the republicans running against Romney has. I'm not paying for their advertisements. I haven't demonized capitalism. I have, however, demonized greed. Since greed is one of the deadly sins, demonizing it is certainly just.

Just how many billions in profit does a company have to have before subsidies from the government are taken away?

But, I digress. The point is, the perception of the voters is that candidates are buying elections. Romney likes firing people. Gingrich is a Tiffany buying rich guy who cares little for people. Corporations are people too.

Bosslimo

So, what do we do?

We have an illiterate electorate that usually votes straight ticket because it's their civic duty. We have a massive information techno-giant tentacle of TV, internet and texting imagery that just seems to confuse the masses. And now we have an economy that must collapse in order to correct itself. The impending doom that is awaiting our great Republic under the watchful gaze of our incompetent government will not only allow it they will promote it with their partisan idiocy.

As far as your disdain for greed is concerned, don't belabor yourself. This is just a bigger testament to the fairy-tale world most Americans have been living in for the past century. The once proud accomplishment of attaining the American Dream has been bastardized into "Keeping up with the Jonese's". Our governments fiscal and monetary insanity has trickled down to the uninformed masses and now we wonder why America is broke. We keep electing criminals into our civil servant positions for decades and wonder how greed overcomes them. They not only create the legislation but also collude with the clandestine Central Bank that no one can investigate. Greed is not so much the problem as is the illiteracy we have allowed to consume Americans. When the majority of American's can't name the 5 Rights allowed us in the First Amendment but can name the 5 people in the Simpson's family, we are doomed.

Historically "Bread and Circuses" have brought down most empires. We're no different. Unfortunately I think we are well past the tipping point. Once the dominoes begin to completely collapse in the European Union, we can't be far behind. Perhaps it's better this way. Maybe the world needs a wake up call.

I hope not.

Ali Weinberg forgot to mention that in that time frame over 40 steel mills went bankrupt and that China was dumping steel products on the U.S. market (dumping means selling below cost) since 1995. Clinton was president during that time and did not place import taxes on the Chinese steel. Bush finally put tariffs on the Chinese steel in 2002.

What sense does it make to pay U.S. Union Labor costs when Chinese steel is purchased below U.S. production costs.

If you leftists/socialists would spend some time looking into the history of steel costs and steel mill profits and not take the word of UNION bigmouths who don't want to reveal the truth then you will remain the unintelligent dolts you are.

When the government works against a business as Clinton did against the steel industry, and Unions will not cooperate in reducing costs, a business or company can not work to be profitable, but when product can be had on the open market below the cost of manufacture, a company cannot stay in business.

Is that so far for you socailist/leftist to figure out? You can buy a U.S. lamp for $50 and the same lamp is produced by Thailand for $30, are you going to spend $50 or $30.

And you all know that Chinese labor costs is well below U.S. Labor costs. How much?

The cost of Chinese factory labor is a paltry 64 cents an hour. For comparison, hourly factory compensation in the U.S. in 2002 was $21.11, and an average of $14.22 in the 30 foreign countries covered by the existing BLS report.

http:// www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_50/b3912051_mz011.htm

Reason enough to demand Union Concessions and government assistance that didn't arrive until 2002 3 years after Romney left Bain?

it seems you forgot one VERY important item....quality of product. I'm sure you're aware of all the recalls of tainted food and products. Right? When a company is started the chances of failure are very real and alot of times the failure is mismanagement of resources. Everyone knows that when it starts every cent made as profit should be re-invested into the company. It goes with working long hours. The fact that alot of companies fail now is because they can't get financing. What exactly went wrong has yet to be exposed so until then let's stop the union bashing...Unions are, whether you want to admit it or not, the reason for the success of the middle class. One can compare companies that are organized to companies that are not and you get the result that organized companies make more money, have better benefits. Why is it that the mindset of anti unionists is that the people don't deserve to live decent lives and should be at the mercy of a greedy owner? Are you suggesting that we should lower our standard of living to what is in other countries? This is so ridiculous. I guess you agree with the stupid suggestion that poor people in this country can't really be poor if they own a refrigerator.

Romney is being shoved down peoples throats in this instance. The righties with their huge Supreme Court travesty in Citizens United would like us to think that free speech is important. It is only free speech when a viewpoint is expressed that would further the creation of "The Oligarchy." How anyone that does not have a net worth of less than 1 million dollars can vote for a Republican for any office is beyond my ability to comprehend.

The last time I checked either the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence "free speech" is a right of people not wallets or corporations. The righties insist upon following the Constitution, but it does not apply to them just because they wrap themselves in it. Huckabee with his "rules" was denying the candidates their rights!

Just weeks ago, Newt told wall street protesters to take a bath, but its Gingrich that's taking the bath now in the polls and with voters. Newt might as well buy a sleeping bag and join the occupies ???

joannemb6

The last time I checked either the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence "free speech" is a right of people not wallets or corporations.

Joanne, you're right. Unfortunately you forgot the biggest, and most corrupt abuser of free speech, the unions. For their massive contributions--of rank and file money, whether they wanted to or not--the crony-capitalism is criminal.

What should have happened as we all now know is not force these big banks to give bad loans - and your dem pres bill shouldn't have aloud the repeal of glass-steagle. Typical goverment that would allow banks to act as a lender and an invester - then have someone like gietner a tax cheat himself oversea the SEC - Madoff AIG all of it is ugly - but the government failed to watch and how they allowed fannie and freddie to function the way they did and give that leader 50 mil in bonus money when they are asking for 50 bill a quarter is sickening. When the problem came to the doorstep it was to huge to not infuse capital - it was the fear and weakness in Paulson to not force the banks to abide by stipulations when we gave them the tarp money - but as you know most of that money has been paid back - it was just managed wrong - GM - will never pay back that money. But my point is - now GM gets free money with out having to pay taxes while Ford does - you are all so blind

Janet Anderson

Unions are, whether you want to admit it or not, the reason for the success of the middle class.

No, no, no!!!!

The success of the middle class is two-fold.

1). The opportunity in our great Republic to achieve. The fact that if you want to, and have the vision to succeed, you can. You can be happy working on the line at Ford or you can pursue your dream of starting a business, and anything in between.

2). The middle class work ethic. The ability to get a job is just the first step. What brought the world from the horse-and-buggy era to watching man walk on the moon was ambition. Ambition and pride in how we performed our jobs. Living within our means. Taking risks, trail blazing, the pioneer spirit.

None of this had anything to do with the unions. Yes, the unions had their place in the late 19th and early 20th century. Today they are a burden. Most of the benefits that unions brought to the American work-force have become laws and administered by government agencies. The Department of Labor, OSHA, EEOC and others at State and Federal levels have taken the unions out of the picture.

The unions have become industry destructive rather than supportive. It does no one, neither the industry or the union, any good to create unsustainable wages, benefits and legacy costs. Just look at all the pensions crippling states today. Why isn't the union in some manner responsible for these burdens on tax payers.

Sitting down at a negotiation table with an industry and demanding all levels of benefits for the rank-and-file is one thing. Making sure these demands can survive is another. We see the error in judgement of these decisions in every state today. We see the mass exodus of industries because of it.

Why have we become so dependent on an organization to determine our own worth? Have American's become so dumbed-down that we can't negotiate our value ourselves? This is most confounding when we see the teachers so betrothen to the unions. Aren't the teachers educated enough to negotiate their own contracts without having to pay union dues that are primarily used for political gain rather than improvement of the members needs?

Don't get me wrong, unions aren't the only reason for our economies collapse. Unfair trade agreements, a criminal progressive tax system, irrational regulations that are rarely if ever enforced have all contributed to our demise. Other than the FMLA, name one benefit the unions have contributed to the workforce in the past 25 years. There is none.

Oh give me a break ME-sane no bank was ever forced to give a bad loan, I am sick of that lie.

"The unions have become industry destructive rather than supportive. It does no one, neither the industry or the union, any good to create unsustainable wages, benefits and legacy costs."

Ha I see no mention of those costs with regard to executive pay, bonuses, and retirement packages, the average pay for an American CEO is now 14 million a year, with some top ones making $48,000 per hour. Get serious FRL about what costs cannot be sustained, and who is paying those costs. How come we can afford to pay them like that but can not afford to pay employees a decent wage and fringe package, can you explain that? Please explain that to me, how a company could afford $48,000 an hour for one man but can not afford $48.00 dollars an hour for a thousand men. Unions have not destroyed the economy, the American economy is being destroyed in the Board Room, by the few people who personally benefit from it's destruction, and BTW taxes have never been lower and they have been this low for over ten years, so guess again on that one as well.

Unions first of all contribute a safer workplace, that was a non union rig that vaporized 11 men in the gulf, that was a non union mine that buried 29 men alive, in both cases it was well known that things were improper but those men could not say crap if they had a mouthful for fear of losing their job. Unions often negotiate a health insurance package as part of the compensation package so their members are bot the ones that go to the emergency room as if it was a clinic or depend on the US taxpayer through Medicaid. They often have a retirement plan as part of their compensation so again they are not depending solely on the US taxpayer to provide for them or their spouses in their old age. Do you think these workers are rich, they are not and they earn their money day by day they have to work for years to get those retirement benefits, not just make the numbers look right for a couple of quarters in a row to cash out millions. These people spend their pay in their communities supporting the small businessman with the few dollars of disposable income their collective bargaining agreement affords them. Do you see a lot of CEO's supporting the small business in your town, do have a Rolls Royce dealership in your town? These people pay their taxes they do not shelter their weekly paycheck in an offshore account, and at that they pay twice the rate the CEO's are effectively paying. Don't be ridiculous, Americans making a living wage and fringe package through a collective bargaining agreement has nothing to do with our problems, and in fact the reduction of workers income and benefits is only making the economy worse. I have a hourly wage and fringe package 5x higher than the median income in Texas, in a state with a comparable cost of living, I have never been on food-stamps, or medicaid, I have weathered the housing bubble and the poor economy, and I have not put my employer out of business, in fact he is still a millionaire, I am not a burden to my local, the state, or the federal government, I collect nothing from them, and I pay plenty in taxes.

Romney will say anything to be president. At least everyone agrees about this.

Whether we engage in questioning capitalism, which can be good or bad just like anything else, the point is if a candidate makes a claim, he/she must expect to be called on it. That Gingrich is the pot calling the kettle black is a joke. But Romney claimed to create 10,000 jobs in his earlier run, and is now claiming 100,000 jobs -- He isn't even consistent on this. But if he can't prove it he needs to stop saying it.

As for freedom, there is a loud ringing in this thread I would like to be free from.

Forrest Grump 2.0

Oh give me a break ME-sane no bank was ever forced to give a bad loan, I am sick of that lie.

Forrest -- I'm with ya on your posts, about unions, etc. as well. In his recent speech (I believe in Chicago) the president speaks about the Republican "Race to the Bottom."

The right-wing is incapable of critical thinking and problem-solving because they are stuck in their black and white world view. If other countries have sweat shops and child labor, than the US needs to abolish the minimum wage and bust unions. If other countries pollute at will, than the US must get rid of regulations and agencies like the EPA.

What US citizen is so secure in their job and about their current wages that they want to destroy their own labor rights? What US citizen is okay with unsafe water and air for themselves and their children? Are Teapublicans really such simpletons as to believe free enterprise via the invisible hand will somehow ensure the general good, benevolence toward workers, and protections for consumers?

Who are these people who want to shoot themselves in the foot and take the rest of us down with them? Please, identify yourselves, because I want to know who you are and why, why, why you believe such a crock of crap?

President Obama has been and continues to be the only voice of reason, currently pushing to merge government agencies, to provide incentives for companies who create products, services and jobs here in the USA. But you can bet the GOP/TP "obstructionism on steroids" will never allow this until We the People throw out the Teapublicans -- Obama/Biden - 2012!

such simpletons as to believe free enterprise via the invisible hand will somehow ensure the general good, benevolence toward workers, and protections for consumers?

Well said TP, it has never happened voluntarily and never will.

FreedomRingsLoud

Bosslimo

So, what do we do?

I will tell you what needs to be done and you can weigh the odds of it happening.

Remove the two-party system. You (the nation) still controls the government. Every single voter needs to forget repukes and libtards. By every single voter voting independent, it would kill the two parties. Not just in presidential races, but in every single house and senate in the state and federal government.

We need to take money out of the election. That would be the only way to do it.

Ah yes, I see the bucket brigade is out to support the irrational social and economic justice for the collective. The envy crowd is out in force to admonish success in the greatest Republic in history. How dare anyone educate themselves, climb the corporate ladder and achieve what everyone wants to be, rich.

But of course in the social justice Shangri-La that many of you malinger in you want that benevolent someone to determine what is "fair". What a "level playing field" is. What a "fair share" is. Well let me splain it to all you indoctrinated minions.

IT DOESN'T EXIST!

It has been attempted for millennia and has never succeeded. Please don't embarrass yourselves by telling me about some tiny Scandinavian country with a population less than 5 million either. Look at the horrible social and economic experiment gone wrong that is unfolding in the European Union. Not one, not two, not three but NINE nations have been downgraded because of the nonsense you all so cherish. Some of the strongest economies are collapsing under the weight of their nanny-state utopia.

Unsustainable social programs and policies, irrational union interventions, corrupt government and a populace so enamored by the nanny-state they no longer have the will or determination to accept any Draconian austerity moves that are obviously necessary. Sound familiar? It should, you're all living in its twin sibling. Just wait until the EU unveils their new weapon of incredulity, the "European Stability Mechanism". A non-challengeable, non-debatable manipulation of the first $700 Billion Euro's that will be pumped into their irreconcilable economy. Yes, the FIRST $700 Billion. You'll enjoy this new financial vehicle. It will make our stimulus look like pocket change except the banks are the only one who can determine its redistribution. Oh, and guess who will most likely be a significant contributor of the necessary funds?

As Obama just keeps feeding you more "Bread and Circuses" you still believe he has a clue. He sprinkles his little Payroll-Tax cut extension and continues his unemployment insurance and you grovel all over it like the lemmings you have been trained to be. He consolidates a few government agencies--not eliminate or downsize-- "consolidates". This will save a "whopping" $3 Billion dollars over 10 years, or $300 million dollars a year. This is 0.0019% of our growing National Debt. Which by the way will be ominously close to $17 TRILLION Dollars by the end of this year when we have to add in the ongoing doctor-fix to the just raised debt ceiling of $1.2 Trillion dollars.

As the EU Rome burns, Obama dithers. The EU is our biggest trade partner. When it collapses so must we. For 3 years we have had no economic policy, no budget, no direction and incredibly growing debt. You embarrass yourselves by claiming the Republican’s have no "critical thinking". Perhaps. Although there are 24 bills that can help create jobs by the private sector sitting on uncle Hairy Reeds desk that he refuses to even debate. This is the coward you follow? You should be ashamed of yourselves. Of course your usual nonsense is they are going to cause massive pollution, incredible wealth transfer, hurt the poor and stop the world from spinning, even though you've never read any of them. Your elitist masters in the DNC and MoveOn.Org have indoctrinated you with the appropriate talking points and you just blather them out submissively.

You'd do our great Republic a tremendous service by moving to your sacrosanct nanny-state in Europe and promote the policies that have driven them into the beginning of the next recession that will most likely drag us and the rest of the world into the second Depression. Leave the critical thinking to us and we may let you back in when we are once again the “Shining City on the Hill” that the world demands us to be.

So FRL, we all see your verbose and opinionated complaints, and allegorical and anecdotal criticisms against what others on the left and center says on this comments vine, but what exactly are the workable answers you propose then, to the problems you perceive?

Do you have any positive and non-cynical solutions to offer ...or are you just going to continue griping and attacking others in your defense?

*...just saying *

A political Debate where you are not allowed to criticize your opponents records, yeah that makes sense!

I never thought I would defend a scumbag like Newt, but please! Not being allowed to mention the FACT that Mittens slashed and burned 10 of thousands of American jobs while making 100 of Millions of dollars for himself at Bain is ridiculous!

The GOP is now just trying to protect their Front runner. If attacks on his record at BAIN are exposed by his own Party they cannot cry "Dirty Politics" when the Dems hammer him for it latter!

This coming from the Scumbags that brought us swift boating, and Birtherism!

Bosslimo

I will tell you what needs to be done and you can weigh the odds of it happening.

As much as I agree, the weight unfortunately is unsustainable. The problem, my good friend, is that we have allowed our electorate to become an illiterate populace. I come on these threads and cringe when I see the nonsense being spewed about their "party". Neither the Democrats, Liberals, Progressives, Republicans nor GOP have any idea what their proud parties once were and stood for and what they have become. The reason is because we have allowed our criminal government into our education system. We are graduating illiteracy from our K-12 system and then we encourage them to go to college. For what reason? Just to walk out with a piece of paper declaring their illiteracy?

Our children, and most of their parents regrettably, don't know how to use--there, their or they're--properly in a sentence. They can't do simple math in their head. Most can't name the capitol of their own state. Our perception of the hierarchy has become the Federal government then the State and Local government and finally We The People, instead of the other way around. Reading some of the posts on these and other discussion boards it’s pathetic to see the allegiance the people have submitted to their omnipotent government. Their self-pity, envy and dependence on a mob of strangers in Washington is an embarrassment.

Taking the money out will be the greatest challenge. Just look at the dedication the uninformed bestow on the unions that have been, are, and will be corrupt forever. Their indoctrination is complete, either from their equally indoctrinated parents, peers or teachers. They only see what they're told they should see. As I have mentioned before. We have the most criminal progressive tax system and yet they cherish it while hoping someone will eliminate a few "loopholes" and raise the taxes on the mean, nasty, rich, fat-cats. As if that will accomplish anything. As we watch our politicians willingly admit to hundreds of billions of dollars in waste, fraud and abuse the intellectually challenged are convinced giving them even more will magically fix everything. The poverty rate in 1960 was 14%. Today, after spending over $12 TRILLION Dollars (estimates range between $12-$19 Trillion dollars) on the war on poverty, today our poverty rate is 14.3% (adjusted for the recession it's 15.1%).

I at least give the TEA Party some credit for having a platform on which to build on. As a Reagan Conservative, Constitutional Originalist and Fiscal Libertarian (try to get THAT on a voter registration card) I cringe at the two-party indoctrination system. I wish we could eliminate them or at best educate the masses how irrational their ideologies are. I guess the only thing we can do is just continue our crusade to help bring a little light to the dark and dreary worlds they all live in.

Seeing a non-monetary, non-institutional, non-union influenced election would be an incredible sight. Unfortunately I have to submit its chances of happening is none in today’s corrupt government.

rradiko

Do you have any positive and non-cynical solutions to offer

First of all, they only seem cynical to those who don't accept them. This is OK, it's what debate begins with. Unfortunately many are so indoctrinated in their beliefs they are incapable of debate.

Now, as far as solutions, it will be a long and arduous task to undo nearly 100 years of progressivism that is collapsing our great Republic. Add to this the irrational acceptance of Keynesianism and the picture becomes clear how we got here. I have mentioned my elevator-speech version of some of my solutions above.

Trade agreement reform. TOTAL reform. We don't need free-trade, we need FAIR-trade. When we have to pay tariffs, taxes, duties or VAT's on our exports but not on our imports, we cannot compete in the global economies.

Our criminal progressive tax system has become so indoctrinated because of the false-belief that no other tax system can work. What other tax system have we ever used? NONE!!!! Yet many believe nothing but this 72,000+ page behemoth is "fair". Our IRS can't answer 25% of the questions individuals and businesses ask them. How can anyone in their right mind accept this. A recent report stated that because of, “an expanding workload and cuts in funds have left the Internal Revenue Service unable to adequately perform either of its primary duties — collecting taxes and providing the public with reasonable service”. Why is it an expanding workload? Because our tax code changes AT LEAST 1-3 times a day, every day. Why? Because our criminal government is told to do so. Now before you get all bent out of shape claiming it’s all the Republicans fault, I challenge you to find me one single partisan piece of legislation that changed the tax code. Don’t waste your time, it doesn’t exist. Eliminate this bureaucratic behemoth and replace it with a simple Flat tax, or preferably a Fair Tax. The Fair Tax will allow us to use, or not use, our tax on imports if so needed. It will also eliminate the tax shortfall the $2 TRILLION Dollar black-market (under-the-table payments) that doesn’t get taxed by our current system. A simple 23% Fair Tax would generate an extra $500 BILLION Dollars of added revenue every year. Plus, there wil no longer be the Gestapo IRS threatening everyone who happened to miss a few hundred dollar tax liability. I can go on but time is limited.

Our corporate tax system is an even bigger abomination. I’d need much more time to discuss that with you. Being the highest corporate taxed nation will NEVER bring industries back to our shores. This needs careful and sustainable changes to promote returning to our country, improving wages, compromise on executive pay scales, etc. By the way, I assume most of you don’t realize that the most meteoric rise in wage discrepancy between CEO’s and regular wage earners was between 1995 and 2000. It rose from a ratio of 120:1 in 1995 to a ratio of over 532:1 in 2000.

Regulations must be reviewed and the majority eliminated. Now, don’t get all emotional, I DO NOT want more air pollution, dirty water or nuclear fallout in my neighborhood. But I do want to make it more equitable for small business, which is the engine that drives our economy. Most government agencies, departments and offices are unconstitutional and should be eliminated. The States are supposed to regulate their own industries and population. Every regulation, and legislation for that matter, must have a 5-10 years "Sunset Clause" attached to it. This means that every regulation, program and tax needs to be reviewed regularly. We have a 1959 regulation still in the CFR that claims milk spills be treated as a toxic substance spill. Obama recently told a farmer to contact the USDA about his concerns regarding new dust regulations. A reporter from POLITICO did just that. After 2 days and 8 phone calls the USDA had no idea how to help the reporter. No one ever suggested he might try the EPA or Bureau of Land Management. This is how convoluted our massive bureaucracy has become. And this isn’t something new. In 1984 Reagan created the "Private Sector Survey on Cost Control”, better known as the “Grace Commission”. The OMB didn't even know how many programs existed. As it turns out 963 different social programs existed and you could be enrolled in 17 of them at the same time even if you didn't need or qualify for them. 161 private sector executives volunteered their time in 36 task-forces. It was funded by $75 million dollars of private funds. Three years later the commission reported they found nearly 2,500 cost-cutting and revenue generating recommendations that could save the government almost $425 BILLION Dollars in the first 3 years. With complete incorporation the plan was reported to be able to save nearly $2 TRILLION Dollars by 1999. Over 90% of the recommendations were ignored by Congress. These recommendations are still being ignored.

The SBA recently reported that regulation costs American business $1.75 TRILLION per year, and cost small businesses, those with fewer than 20 workers, $10,585 per employee, or 36% more than paid by large businesses, those with 500 or more. 89% of all businesses in the U.S. employ less than 20 employees. Large businesses account for only 0.3% of all businesses. Guess where the majority of the taxes on the "RICH" are going to come from? The Code of Federal Regulations in the 2007 edition totaled 145,816 pages, 8,000 pages longer than in 2000. No current progressive numbers of additional regulation pages from the Obama administration are available. Appropriations for federal regulatory agencies increased during the Bush years from $27 billion in FY 2001 to $44.9 billion in FY 2007-a 44 percent increase in inflation-adjusted dollars.

Someone previously mentioned the fact that 11 people died on the DeepWater Horizon rig because of lack of regulation. However no one mentions that the Minerals Management Services (currently changed to BOEMRE) were found to be watching porn, doing illegal drugs and other questionable activities and failed to do their part in preventing the disaster. Of course the government’s solution was to accept Elizabeth Birnbaum and changed the name of the agency. This happened 14 months after Obama took office. Please don’t tell me his administration didn’t have enough time in 14 months. If it takes more than a few months to transfer power in our government it just proves how big and out of control it is.

Anyway, those are just a couple of my solutions. I’d be interested in some of yours. Please don’t tell me you want to keep things the way they are and just change a couple loophole, tax brackets and regulations. We’ve been doing that for almost 100 years with disastrous results.

*...just saying *

I will concede a few of your points. I, a "libtard", agree about the fair trade. I'm right there with you. I also agree that regulations need to be reviewed and adjusted. I see that battle in my own small company. Regarding the regulations by the president, I have to side with him. I don't want to see another collapse even close to what we saw in 2008. We can not expect businesses to police themselves, it never has worked out.

You have many valid points but don't side with everything I will point out. After a million dollar profit, all government subsidies should be taken from business, manditorally. Even an individual loses welfare after making so much money.

Fixing the tax code has justifications too. I would be just fine if the rich paid their fair share, but it has been proven they do not. Not only do those individuals called corporations pay zero taxes, they receive a government refund with some in the millions.

Too many chiefs and not enough indians.

Not everyone can be a CEO, CFO, or president. Those that peak in their field are left with what they call a dead-end job. The pay differencial between white collar and blue collar worker is abominable. The concept that people need to be laid off to streamline production while the CEO doing the lay-offs enjoys a million dollar bonus is an insult to the hard-working employee. Look up democratic businesses and understand I advocate all businesses follow that guideline.

Jethro graduated 9th grade

I find it perplexing why funds from education must be reduced while subsidizing business with the savings. Through the years, even when I was going to k-12, cut in education occurred every year. Education needs the attention and funding it deserves. Stop graduating the ignorant with "No Child Left Behind". Just as our roads and highways are considered infastructure, so should education. $200.00 for any book that wouldn't sell in an auction is robbery, plain and simple. And adding a ".1" to the edition issue each year, forcing students to buy new books instead of purchasing used ones, is a scam. Whose to blame for the greed in education? Businesses.

One more thing that irks me, while I'm thinking about it...

An administration collapses the world economy, the incoming president is handed the heaping, steaming, pile of dung. Then, his opponents call him the food stamp president, when the opponents are the reason for it. Secondly, those same opponents that killed 4000+ american lives and countless others in an unjust war want me to hand control back over to them! Just how stupid do they think I am??

Now that I got that off my chest, back to the 100 years of disastrous policies.

That would put us at 1912. Remind me again how great those labor camps were. Tell me how well the companies treated their employees while owing "their soul to the company store". How about those children working hard for their money to buy a loaf of bread at the end of the week.

Ah, the good ole days before regulation.

Bosslimo

Regarding the regulations by the president, I have to side with him. I don't want to see another collapse even close to what we saw in 2008. We can not expect businesses to police themselves, it never has worked out.

The problem with these types of regulations is that they don’t discriminate. What I mean by that is that many of the regulations that affect the large corporations also affect your little company, at a substantial rate more. 89% of all businesses in the U.S. employ less than 20 employees. Large businesses account for only 0.3% of all businesses. Guess where the majority of the taxes on the "RICH" are going to come from? As I mentioned above, the SBA recently reported that regulation costs American business $1.75 TRILLION per year, and cost small businesses, those with fewer than 20 workers, $10,585 per employee, or 36% more than paid by large businesses, those with 500 or more.

The simplest remedy to what we saw in 2007-2008 was to have had let the “Too Big To Fail” financials collapse. This would have sent a strong message to not only our corrupted banking system but to the global community also. How many of the corruption we saw exposed will result in any significant punishment? NONE! Yes a few banks who received billions in TARP funds were fined a few million dollars. Not much of a detriment. Now, before you start with the “economists said we would go into a Depression, the world economy would have collapsed, our nation would have fell off a cliff”. BULLSH*T!!!! First of all these are the same “economists”, or authorities if you would, that never saw the collapse coming, outside of a handful. I keep reading every week that the economy is on the mend and less than 24 hours later the same economists are telling me that we’re teetering on the brink again. The stock market for the past 2 years has been the most erratic I have seen in decades. I day-traded the Dot-Com “irrational exuberance” and never saw 200-300 point swings in the indices like we see today. Nobody knows, because we’ve never experienced this. The Depression was totally mismanaged by the Keynesian wunderkind. Even FDR’s Treasury Secretary stated after all the effort, they had just as much unemployment and a whole lot more debt. The war is what dragged us out of the Depression, not some mythical fiscal policy. Ha d we let the financials crash the true free-market forces would have purged the weak and corrupt banks, even the big ones. There are over 8.000 FDIC insured banks in our country, they would have been more than happy to have distributed the accounts from those banks that failed. Yes, it would have been more drastic at first but the financials would have been made aware that no rewards will ever be given for monetary malfeasance and fiscal malinvestment. Besides all the banks did was borrow at their over-night discount rates and buy short and long term paper and made 2-3% without any risk or expense. Pretty easy money when you’re talking about Billions of dollars.

Fixing the tax code has justifications too. I would be just fine if the rich paid their fair share, but it has been proven they do not

I’m sorry to say, this argument drives me crazy. Please explain to me what is a "fair share"? How much more should the successful pay. You realize there are only a handful of the “rich, mean, nasty, fat-cats” that abuse the tax system. Hell, even Warren Buffett misinformed the masses with his “fair share” hypocrisy. He only earns $200,000/year in wages from Berkshire-Hathaway, the rest of his income is from investment vehicles that are only taxed at the 15% Capital Gains rate. He also forgot to tell us that Berkshire owes back taxes from 2002 that could amount to over $1 Billion dollars. Who will decide what is fair? Who is the unbiased arbiter that can decide how much everyone should pay in taxes that will most likely be lost to waste, fraud and abuse anyway. We have had upper income tax bracket rates between 35% and 94%, never have we collected more in tax receipts than 18% +/-2 of GDP over that period of time. That’s because we have a 72,000+ page tax code that only the rich can exploit with their army of accountants, tax-lawyers, MBA’s and consultants. Everybody wants to eliminate “loopholes”. A loophole is not a written part of the tax code. It’s an ambiguity in a system, such as a law or security, which can be used to circumvent or otherwise avoid the intent, implied or explicitly stated, of the system. How do these ambiguities exist? Our lawmakers write the tax code that way. Then the wealthy, who can afford it, hire the next generation of economics and math geeks from Harvard, MIT, Berkley and Wharton’s to find the loopholes. The criminal progressive tax code needs to be eliminated.

The pay differencial between white collar and blue collar worker is abominable.

You do realize that the biggest discrepancy in ratios of wages existed between 1995 and 2000, right? See my above post for details. In 2000 it was 532:1. I don’t remember much of an outcry back then. Do you?

The concept that people need to be laid off to streamline production while the CEO doing the lay-offs enjoys a million dollar bonus is an insult to the hard-working employee.

As much as I agree, the problem is the CEO and all upper management pay is determined by the Board of Directors. Here’s how it works.

The compensation committee (of the board of directors) talks to an outside consultant who has surveys you could drive a truck through and pay anything you want to pay, to be perfectly honest. The outside consultant talks to the human resources vice president, who talks to the CEO. The CEO says what he'd like to receive. It gets to the human resources person who tells the outside consultant. And it pretty well works out that the CEO gets what he's implied he thinks he deserves, so he will be respected by his peers. The board of directors buys into what the CEO asks for because the outside consultant is an "expert" on such matters. Furthermore, handing out only modest salary increases might give the wrong impression about how highly the board values the CEO. And if someone on the board should object, there are the three or four CEOs from other companies who will make sure it happens. It is a process with a built-in escalator. You can imagine why the consultant goes along with this scam. The question is, how do you control this broad level of corruption? No level of regulation can do this. What people need to do is find out who these CEO’s are and refuse to invest in their company. Now remember, many of these CEO’s do earn their bonuses, your 401k, pension and other investment vehicle depends on these companies being profitable. Otherwise you can hope your 2% C.D. carries you through your retirement. Good luck with that wet-dream.

I find it perplexing why funds from education must be reduced while subsidizing business with the savings.

I agree. Our government shouldn’t be subsidizing any industry OR foreign nation with our tax dollars. Let the free-market control the winners and losers. Other nations need to get by without our help until we get our fiscal house in order. Education is another discussion. I have a great solution to our current system and teachers will be better compensated than they are today and our childrens resultant education will be better also.

That would put us at 1912. Remind me again how great those labor camps were.

You do realize we were just beginning to emerge from a primarily agrarian society into the new industrial revolution. Of course there were abuses. I hate to pop your bubble but those abuses still exist. You promote them every time you buy a pair of shoes from China, or a flat-screen TV from Taiwan. When you call Dell for customer service and talk to Rajeesh in India. You worry about the abuses happening here but it's OK to exploit them in other countries? Your hypocrisy is showing.

Today most of those abuses no longer exist here. They have been incorporated into laws. OSHA, EEOC, minimum wage and others protect us. These, at the State level, can very easily prevent any further abuses. Do you honestly think someone will allow a “sweatshop” to exist here? If they do they need to be exposed, fined and jailed. No one wants society to revert back to the “good ole days”, but we do want our government to abide by the Constitution as our Framer’s intended. It’s not as bad as all the social and economic justice crowd think, they’re just afraid to be independent and self supporting. That's the biggest embarrassment that big government creates.

Anyway, I’m tired.

Great debate.

I think to ask questions about a particular company is not the same as attacking capitalism

Exactly.

And if any propagandist claims otherwise, that person is not worth voting for or listening to.

After reading the story I was simply AMAZED to see SO MANY CONservatives camped out at MSNBC... THE LIBERAL VOICE. I couldn't believe the NUMBERS OF idealists, kool-aid-drinkers & NO'ers who were here to SPEAK THEIR MINDS...!

THEN I went over to FOX THE FAIR & BALANCED MECCA of all of those who are camped out here longterm...

GUESS WHAT I DIDN'T FIND...?

ONE SINGLE MENTION OF THIS FLARE-UP... NO HUCKABEE, NO GINGRICH BLOW BACK NOTHING !!!

The reason the RepubliCON's are all over here is that their own VOICE OF FAIRNESS has cheated them out of a prime story that they are all sweating up a lather over..

NOT ONLY THAT... with NO STORY TO READ they have no place to vent their "undies in a bundle" spite except to come HERE log in as a LIBERAL SUPPORTER & then throw turds all over the walls of our place to discuss THEIR FAULTS !

POS FOX ALL BS 24/7 for the DFSOB crowd woac fwiw

Mister Fids

The reason the RepubliCON's are all over here is that their own VOICE OF FAIRNESS has cheated them out of a prime story that they are all sweating up a lather over..

ROTFLMAO!!!!

Nice projection.

You limp-wristed little Libbies are so cute when you're confused. The reason we have to come here to the hypocrites anonymous gathering site is to reassure you that the 40% of Americans who identify as Republicans and Conservatives and the 40% that identify as Independents or Moderates understand this is not a story. Of course you uninformed are the only ones who believe that capitalism is a concern for real American's. We understand you need to be told what to think and what to say by your indoctrinators at the DNC, MoveOn.Org and other propaganda sources. We understand your inability to be self-sufficient, independent and rational. It's OK, we'll fix it all in 2012.

In the meantime, go live in your little world of Occupiers, social and economic justice and class-warfare. As the minority in this great Republic, you still have that Right. That's why we're not a Democracy. We understand your shame for being responsible for electing the incompetent we have trespassing in our White House. We understand your embarrassment having the knuckle-dragging, mouth breathing likes of Hairy Reed and Nanny Piglosi being your talking heads. Once again, this will all be taken care of in less than 10 months and the world will finally be put out of it's misery.

ABO (Anybody But Obama) 2012!

When is comes to "venture capitalists", yes there comes a time when the profits from scrapping a business are far larger then keeping the business afloat. Sure, the business COULD survive and make a profit. But, that profit wouldn't be nearly as much, as selling off the parts of the company, and bankrupting the debt. This is why the term "vulture capitalist" is VERY appropriate!

FreedomRingsLoud is my hero!

Janet Anderson Grow up!!!! Romney couldn't force companies to buy that steelmill's product when Clinton didn't want to help with retaliatory tariffs for China's dumping. AMERICAN COMPANIES STOPPED BUYING THE PRODUCT! Learn economics. Start a business. Try to stay in business when a competitor sells a product below what you pay for it!

Janet learn to read financial documents. The steelmill was losing money and called in Bain. There were no profits and Clinton refused to help. Really you are writing nonsense. You know nothing about economics and profit and loss statements. Anyhow Romney left in 1999 before the company really went belly up. It couldn't wait for Bush to put the tariffs on in 2002.

joannemb6 Free speech eh? Then You should tell Dickerson of newsvine, Tillinghast of Msnbc.com and Griffin of NBC, to stop censoring Msnbc.com.

Tillinghast said msnbc.com was racing to foster a community among its readers and to exploit the power of unmoderated user commentary and ranking of the news.

Since newsvine was bought by Tillinghast, there has been constant moderation of the comments. There have been collapsing and deletion of comments, mostly conservative. There has been intimidation of people who have conservative or republican views. There have been suspensions and banning of people but not people who violate the COH and are liberals.

So don't say that Republicans are affecting free speech. Because the republicans are exercising their free speech, the republicans are having an open primary. The democrats will not let any democrat say one word against Obummer. Have you heard one word by any democratic hack say one word about Obummer? Where is the free speech in the democratic party. Surely 100% of all the democratic congressmen are not in favor of Obummer but they line up behind him because they ARE TOLD! You are seeing a rough and tumble free Republican Primary with all stops out. Not so with the democrats.

Really? So Clinton was just kidding around?

According to every media outlet, republicans used to walk lock-step in line but the new TEA party members are defying the golden rules of the GOP.

Where were all these complaints when Romney was running all the negative ads in Iowa??????

we've also had a taste of 8 years of bush. trillions of $$$ lost in wars. shifting of wealth to the wealthy. economy in shambles. you may 'puke it up'.....but the smell left over from the bush years still lingers over the landscape.

Johnny: wrong. The Republican party has fallen so far into extremism, it's not even recognizable as a party...that's not America.

Johnny N.

The good old USA is obviously a center right country, all you LIBERALS can cry all you want but we've had a taste of your politics and we puke it up, VOTE REPUBLICAN IN 2012 !

And what makes you think the GOP candidates are even close to center right? You need recalibration, buddy!

There is no center right. The Republican party has moved so far to the right that they would not let Lincoln under the tent. After all, the Bible and the Constitution supported slavery, so why should we worry about bringing back slavery as they kill off unions and the middle class.

He Amy - why dont you move to a socialist country there are plenty of them - greece is looking for people just like you - you are crazy to think it is ok for the gov to take my tax dollars and give it to GM because they chose to overpay the union and the board of dir over paid everyone in management for years - BAILING OUT THIS COMPANY WAS NOTHING MORE THAN BULL@!$%# CRONEY CAPITALISM - your pres needs the union vote that is it - But you idiots don't know @!$%# about economics - you are actually saying it was ok to give 50 billion to bail out these companies instead of them following the chapter 11 process. Saved jobs really - we may as well have given all of the employees a couple million dollars and closed the shop - they are making money sure but 100,000 million compared to the 50 billion they were given to bail out poor management is pure bull@!$%# and for you to praise it shows your stupidity. It is people like you that will cause the ultimate demise of the country - just dumb

Ali Weinberg forgot to mention that in that time frame over 40 steel mills went bankrupt and that China was dumping steel products on the U.S. market (dumping means selling below cost) since 1995. Clinton was president during that time and did not place import taxes on the Chinese steel. Bush finally put tariffs on the Chinese steel in 2002.

What sense does it make to pay U.S. Union Labor costs when Chinese steel is purchased below U.S. production costs.

If you leftists/socialists would spend some time looking into the history of steel costs and steel mill profits and not take the word of UNION bigmouths who don't want to reveal the truth then you will remain the unintelligent dolts you are.

When the government works against a business as Clinton did against the steel industry and Unions will not cooperate in reducing costs, a business or company can work to be profitable, but when product can be had on the open market below the cost of manufacture, a company cannot stay in business.

Is that so far for you socailist/leftist to figure out? You can buy a U.S. lamp for $50 and the same lamp is produced by Thailand for $30, are you going to spend $50 or $30.

And you all know that Chinese labor costs is well below U.S. Labor costs. How much?

The cost of Chinese factory labor is a paltry 64 cents an hour. For comparison, hourly factory compensation in the U.S. in 2002 was $21.11, and an average of $14.22 in the 30 foreign countries covered by the existing BLS report.

http:// www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_50/b3912051_mz011.htm

Reason enough to demand Union Concessions and government assistance that didn't arrive until 2002 3 years after Romney left Bain?

So Romney can run all of the negative adds in Iowa, but anyone else who questions or attacks Romney is hit over the head. I guess the "party elders" were always behind Romney from the start no matter who was in the race. Repubs have a great democratic process within their nomination process (NOT!!)

Mitt Romney = Bush Cheney

Maga:

Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior and Redeemer of the World. We also strive to live in accordance with all of Christ's teachings.

Maga, always try to learn something new everyday :-)

The Mormons are a religious and cultural group related to Mormonism, a religious movement beginning with the visions of Joseph Smith in upstate New York during the 1820s. After Smith's death in 1844 the Mormons followed Brigham Young to what would become the Utah Territory. Today a vast majority of Mormons are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) while a minority are members of other independent churches. Many Mormons are also either independent or non-practicing. The center of Mormon cultural influence is in Utah, and North America has more Mormons than any other continent, though the majority of Mormons live outside the United States.^[1]

Mormons have developed a strong sense of communality that stems from their doctrine and history. During the latter half of the 19th century many Mormons practiced plural marriage, a form of religious polygamy. Mormons dedicate large amounts of time and resources to serving in their church, and many young Mormons choose to serve a full time proselyting mission. Mormons have a health code that eschews alcoholic beverages, tobacco, coffee, tea, and other addictive substances. They tend to be very family-oriented, and have strong connections across generations and with extended family. Mormons also have a strict law of chastity, requiring abstention from sexual relations outside of marriage and strict fidelity within marriage.

Mormons self-identify as Christian, though some of their beliefs differ from mainstream Christianity. Mormons believe in the Bible, as well as other books of scripture, such as the Book of Mormon. They have a unique view of cosmology, and believe that all people are spirit-children of God. Mormons believe that returning to God requires following the example of Jesus Christ, and accepting his atonement through specific ordinances such as baptism. They believe the authority to perform these ordinances was restored through Joseph Smith, and that their church is guided by living prophets and apostles. Central to Mormon faith is the belief that God speaks to his children and answers their prayers.

Cheers !

A fun little video I found about mormonism, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HSlbuli7HM

"every religion feigns persecution while actively persecuting those not of their faith."

You're thinking of Judaism.

Im not a big fan of obama, but you should get your fact staright about the Mormon Faith, The real name of the Mormon religion is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. It is the Gospel of Jesus Christ who is the God of this earth and the belief that if we follow his commandments, we can be saved by and thru him only . Mormons beleive in and follow Christ, that does make them (christ)ians? We need someone smart and conservitive, and honest that believes in our fredom and rites to run this country and what religion they are should not have anything to do with their ability to lead us. If you want to learn what Mormons believe I invite you to go to lds.org and learn about us

have a nice day val

Mormons self-identify as Christian,

Yes, but what most christians are uncomfortable with is "Special Revelations" and "we are the only ones with the trut"h or "the only ones with the whole truth" claims. It is God's place to promote us, not ours.

Even so, Being Mormon, Catholic, Luthern or what not should not drastically affect their application of conservative policies.

From vgrover's post ... key phrase ... "who is the God of this earth". Emphasis added.

In other words, Mormons (sorry, your efforts to rebrand yourselves just don't cut it) believe in a pantheon of multiple gods, not that different from, say, the Vikings or ancient Greeks. They just don't know the names of all the others. But they do the Vikings one better. They believe they can all become gods too. ("where I am ye shall be also" - The Mormon Doctrine and Covenants, Section 132).

No wonder Mitt wants to be President so bad. He wants to be a GOD!

well maga what cracks me up are the democrats who dont like people saying barack hussein obama yet they refer to mitt romney as willard. The same democrats who claim that they dont discriminate who love to highlight the fact that romney is mormon.

With an imagination like that, you should start your own religion.

I don't mind if you use President Obama's full name. And if Romney is ashamed of being a Mormon, he can always resign.

And if Obama is ashamed of being a "Muslim"( not asserting that he really is, just supposing ), then he always can resign as well. Good logic, eh ?

This story is about the Republican Primary and debates. Not Romney's religion . :-)

ABO 2102

Mormons are not Christians!

The “Christ”of Mormonism

The Mormon view of Jesus Christ is equally at variance with the Scriptures.

1. Mormonism denies the biblical doctrine of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ. This movement teaches that Adam-God had sexual intercourse with Mary, and as a result Jesus was conceived. Orson Pratt alleged that “the virgin Mary must have been for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father . . .” (The Seer, 158-59).
2. Incredibly, Mormonism teaches that Jesus and the devil were once brothers. In a speech, delivered in the Mormon Tabernacle at Salt Lake, “Elder” Andrew Jenson declared: “Thus we see that Lucifer, the son of the morning, is our elder brother and the brother of Jesus Christ, but he rebelled against God and was cast down from heaven with his angels” (The Desert News, January 21, 1928).

Nothing remotely akin to this is found in the Bible.

3. Mormonism contends that Jesus Christ was a polygamist. Brigham Young asserted: “Jesus Christ was a polygamist; Mary and Martha, the sisters of Lazarus, were his plural wives, and Mary Magdalene was another” (quoted by Ann Eliza Young, Wife No. 19, Chapter XV).

This is the stuff of fantasy, not Scripture. http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/357-the-mormons-seek-a-face-lift

Christians are followers of Jesus Christ as set forth in the Scriptures. Mormonism is based on the Book of Mormon, written and authored by Joseph Smith.

The virgin birth is unquestionably the foundation on which Christianity is based, as prophesied in Isaiah 7:14 and fulfilled in Matthew 1:21.

Mormons claim to be Christians in order to mislead unknowing people of the Christian relgion. Mormons are no more Christians than Muslims, who base their religion on the Koran.

Disabled Voter .....and do you really believe in a "virgin birth" ? God must really move in mysterious ways after all ! Mormons on the surface do seem a little more realistic on this subject. NO DISRESPECT INTENDED

My ex wife became pregnant. Im not able to have children.

She said she must of had sex with god.

Must be moron religon......

yeah - I really DO wonder WHO (emphasis on the WHO) really schtupped that 14 year old mary?? Google the word - it's "real"

Pace - and do you really believe in a "virgin birth" ?

A Christian isn't a Christian if they do not believe in the virgin birth. The virgin birth is at the very foundation of the Christian religion. 500 years prior to Jesus' birth Isaiah prophesied that the son of God would be born of a virgin (Isa. 7:14). The fulfillment of the prophesy was Jesus of Nazareth (Matt. 1:21). Mormons do not believe in the virgin birth, but believe in continued revelation given by God through inspiration. How is one more miraculous than the other. God is powerful enough to divinely inspire man to write down His word, but He's not powerful enough to create a child in the womb of a virgin? Regardless of your opinion of who is more believable, it offers no logical answer to the fact that Mormonism is not Christianity. Christianity is based on the virgin birth, and Mormonism denies the virgin birth, therefore, Mormonism is not Christianity. Opinions are like noses, in that everyone has one. It doesn't matter what your or my opinion is, but what matters is what can be verified through the scriptures. Have you ever wondered why there are so many Christian denominations? They all claim to teach those things found in the Bible, but all are separate and distinct. It's man's failure to study and practice those things found in the scriptures that have caused religious division, but also unbelief. The problem with religion is not with God, but with man's unwillingness to abide by His teachings. When people decided that they would pick and choose what they would believe and practice, then they decided to worship God according to their own will instead of His will.

I am not being Mormon....though having studied many religions, Baptist, Catholics, Mormons, the mormons I know tend to be honest hard working family oriented more so then some hard core self rightous evangilicals. At least mormons dont speaking in tongue.....cant tell me that isnt the devil.

Also those that quote the bible, it has been changed, reworded etc. The orginial bibical papers didnt have any vowels, periods, etc.

I can see why you're a "disabled voter". Ignorance is probably a disability.

Who on earth told you Mormons don't believe in the virgin birth? I'm a Mormon. We most certainly DO believe that Mary, a virgin, conceived, and gave birth as a virgin. She was overshadowed by the Holy Ghost. She did not have s*ex with God or anyone else before she gave birth to Jesus. We believe that Jesus Christ is the literal Son of God, with His mother Mary miraculously conceiving as a virgin. We believe that Christ is our Savior and Redeemer and that He suffered for our sins.

If you claim to be Christian but don't agree with that, perhaps your Christianity is in question ...

Nothing like evading the issue by bringing on a personal attack.

I guess you will continue to deny the teachings of those founders of your religion.

Post 3.13 gave quotes that can be found in the literature of your founding fathers, and I am sorry, but just because you claim to be a Mormon who believes in the virgin birth, does not mean that the Mormon religion believes what you believe.

Mormonism denies the biblical doctrine of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ. This movement teaches that Adam-God had sexual intercourse with Mary, and as a result Jesus was conceived. Orson Pratt alleged that “the virgin Mary must have been for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father . . .” (The Seer, 158-59).

Where is your proof from your church leaders that they believe in the virgin birth?

One scholar, Jan Shipps (professor emeritus of history and religious studies at Indiana University), a specialist in Mormon doctrine, has suggested that this latest “change-the-name” ploy on the part of “LDS” officials, reflects an attempt to divorce themselves from the “cult” status – hoping to convince contemporary society that the system truly is “Christian.”

With all due respect, Mormonism is not “Christian” – Mormonism by any other name is still at variance with the teaching of the Bible. It may become increasingly necessary to remind our neighbors that churches of Christ bear no relationship to “the Church of Jesus Christ” of Salt Lake City. http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/357-the-mormons-seek-a-face-lift

If you read my posts above, then you know what I believe, and it's based on the Bible and not the lies found in the Book of Mormon.

Personal slurs are nothing more than Ad Hominem arguments, and are invalid.

Ann - I replied to your post, and it must have got lost. It's a shame too, because I spent some time explaining some things. Mormons are people of good character, but that does not make them Christians. wlv posted below you that he/she is a Mormon and believe in the virgin birth, but that still does not mean that Mormonism teaches the virgin birth. There are a lot of religions where people truly fail to understand the tenants of their faith. Many of those you have listed are among the denominations that do not consistently teach doctrine according to the Bible.

If one's faith is not based on the Bible, then what is it to be based upon? "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God" (Rom. 10:17). Modernism seeks to destroy the authenticity of ancient texts by shouting textual variants. However, throughout time, more discoveries have only proven to support those ancient texts, while lending credibility to the methods of preservation. For every textual critic seeking to discredit, there are many more with equal arguments of support. Those who seek to find truth, in any endeavor, will ultimately find it without prejudice.

Religion and morality are two separate things, ones does not insure the other, or preclude the other. Religion has no place in politics, however if Romney's religion is going to be a political problem for him then that was brought on by republicans themselves who have eagerly mixed their religion and politics for years now.

Forrest - That's the point isn't it? The GOP has courted the Christian vote, and because they have done so for so many years, it proposes a problem for them when they can't promote a Christian candidate. The fact is that unless the GOP continues to dance with the Christian base, then they will never get elected. Like it or not, there are one issue voters who make up a big chunk of the GOP, and they vote according to their issue.

Yes Disabled Voter it is hard to tell a group of the republican party for years that Christianity is the most important quality a candidate must have , then turn around and tell them it suddenly makes no difference just this one time. It matters not if Mormons are Christians and I will not argue that, the point is will evangelical Christians and others perceive Romney as such, they will have to be convinced by their pastor or priests that Mormons are good Christians because they have been getting as much political instruction through them as spiritual instruction for the last decade.

whatever.

Who cares about the religions of the clown show? Their religion is not going to fix the economy and, lets not get away from the fact, that none of these idiots gives a damn about them middle class or poor! None of these guys in the clown show are fit to run a dog kennel, much less our country!

Pacem,

You can try to paint Mormonism as a simple variance of Christianity - but I would need you to explain Elohim and Kolob, the Mormon masterplanet? Please explain how Mormonism chides in with Christianity when it teaches that Jesus Christ was created by God and is the brother to Satan? Who is the Heavenly Mother, who sits next to God in Heaven? Coincide the Three Kingdoms of Glory with Biblical teaching?

Maga, You silly, funny, confused person. I am not Mormon and have not tried to paint anything. You just made me break my promise to anti-trust to stop it with the religion. :-) Please read my responses to the troll AWOL. Do your own research. I just tried to be civil and did repeatedly say that this was about politics, not religion. So , thanks for playing, AWOL's little buddy ! Cheers !

ABO 2012

Pacem:

You don't have to get angry because you can't answer a question, Obviously your mouth wrote a check your a$$ can't pay for. Suck it up and admit you just don't know what you're talking about. Putz.

Pacem,

"Silly""Funny" - I'll take two of the three, thank you. :o) But I still await your instruction on my previously posted questions. And, for a Christian, it should be about religion first and not politics....as one is a path to eternal salvation and the other a temporal thing that changes with the wind every few years.

OBO 2012

I've overheard members of the Christian Fundamentalist Religious Right privately considering this part of the First Amendment an admitted obstruction to the spread of their political agenda in this country:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

AWOL. p*ss off, blockhead. Do your own research. I owe you nothing, twit. :0)

AWOL, your problem is not with the imaginary Mark of Cain, it is with your personality. Troll. :-)

maga, I should have included "dense". It is clear that you will get no instruction from me, other than please go away, AWOL's little trolling buddy. :0)

ABO 2012

Admit it, you're all mach and no compass heading. A word of advice look out for walls...

AWOL, you are a hoot ! I am starting to think you have a secret crush on me, but I don't swing that way. :-) A little advice for you, work on your personality. Cheers !

",,,work on your personality."

Pacem... still not answering my questions? Oh, and I forgive you for the mean remarks. It's all good, Pacem.

Right wing idiots arguing about who is more christian is ludicrous. Jesus would have nothing to do with any of these hypocrites. Jesus did not dine with the kings and magnates. Jesus did not support the rich over the poor. As the level of poverty increases in this country while the division between rich and poor increases, it calls into question just how christian this country can be. As Republican candidates debate whether we should let poor people die on the footsteps of a hospital because they don't have insurance, it is amazing that any of them can claim to be Christian.

You mean corporations are not people too?

Hey. When do corporations get to vote? I can't wait for the SC to cook up that new "right".

Corporations can vote......its called the Super PAC's.

"wont someone please think of the profit!"

Stole from another poster on another thread but I love it

If corporations are people, Bain Capital needs an enema.

Not a dictator. Usurper of authority might be appropriate. From history, he wouldn't be the first President to overstep. Andrew Jackson, Teddy Roosevelt certainly did, FDR got overturned a number of times by the Supreme Court.

DBAkron - FDR -gave you Social Security which the Republicans have been trying to dismantle ever since

FDR one of our greatest presidents - name a Republican president Eisenhower excluded that gave you anything!

MAGA-

FYI, I am a Mormon and Jesus Christ is my savior and redeemer. He is my example to live my life by and follow his teachings.

...and that has to do with the Presidency of the United States how exactly?

Don M - who cares if they believe in Jesus or not? It's the person you elect and what they believe in - and what they care about

Because they want newt out of the way for Santorum, they know Perry isnt a threat because his strings were being pulled by the same bunch, C. Peter Wagner and the New Apostolic Refromation. They realized their original "chosen one", Perry, was unable to garner enough support due to his utter stupidity so they held their pow wow and chose and new "chosen one". Perry is one of Wagner's satanic menions so he will bow out gracefully without staining the good name of greed or Santorum. Newt is a problem for them because Newt is not in this for the Conservative movement, he's not in this for the Republican party, he's not in this for the American people, Newt is in this for Newt and they know he is a danger to their agenda. Romeny can't be trusted by Wagner (satan) to carry out his neferious plan because the Mormon church has a neferious plan to take over the country also, sort of an conflict of conspiracies. They will get to Romney soon enough, they want to let the hubbub over the "vulture capitalism" statement die down so they need to appear sympathetic to Romney so capitalist baby jesus doesnt get pissed and send a hurricane to kill us all. Wagner says that the reason the tsunami hit japan was because the Emporer had sex with the sun goddess. Hmm I thought Christians only believed in one god? Your horns are showing peter.

Hey I just realized I was probably one of the 160 wingnuts at that ranch in Texas picking the next republican nominee, well not the real me, but the wingnut whose name I am using as a handle. Dougie is the uberwingnut behind "the family", he thinks all wingnuts are chosen by god and it doesnt matter if they lie, cheat, steal, murder, rape, molest children because they are the chosen, laws and rules are for the poor people.

These "people", and I use the term loosely, who have taken it upon themselves to, in their tiny minds, choose the next president of the United States are completely insane but unfortunately for America they have the money and the organization to pull this off especially since they have no qualms about cheating. You see they pretend to believe that the democratic party is controlled by demons, thus dehumanizing them in the eyes of their followers, which in turn will give justification to all that they do. There are no rules when "fighting demons for gods glory", so we will definately need to bring in International Observers for the election. Wagner said and I quote, "if we lose this election we will lose the country and we are not willing to do that." I assume ultrawingnut Eric Prince and his Bush supplied private army is waiting in the wings for plan B. They have been working on this little conspiracy for almost 40 years, always in the shadows, so if they are coming out in public about what they want then I assume they believe they have all their pieces in place for the check mate.

Go Newt!!!! You give the whole Party of No such a stench that most of America is starting to gag now. Keep it up!

I know this might be hard to believe, but what makes you think that any Republican will do better than Obama? Does the Republican party have everyone's best interest at heart. I don't think so. Mr. Obama had a heck of a mess to clean up and considering, has done a good job. The markets are getting better, but he doesn't control what Europe does, he did put into place some healthcare directives that really have helped ALL Americans and he is trying to work with everyone, but isn't and oh....a war has ended and Osama Bin Laden AND Saddam Hussien are dead... and he loves his wife and family. If he was a white guy, this would be reason to re-elect him w/o any questions. When I hear Newt talk, all I hear is a person that left his wife when she had cancer. That tells me he leaves when the going gets tough. I don't care what religion Mitt is, he at least shows he believes in commitments. I want to hear what the Republicans are going to do that the Democrats & Obama haven't. The party of No has lost their way and I don't know if they can get it back anytime soon.

Go Newt!! Obama can beat you much more easily than he can beat Romney!

Wendy - Wendy - where do you get your thinking from? Obama can beat anyone of these skells!

Thank you, Barbara! That's what I was going to say!

Brad, where you really going to call them "skells" as well ? Do you also believe they are homeless, vagrant, derelicts ? They may be vagrant derelicts, but I doubt they are homeless.

One of them will most likely have a new temporary home in the White House in 2013. :-)

But NOT Newt ! ABN 2012

Ron Paul and Jon Huntsman are the only two Republicans that have people's best interests at heart. If they screw up (which I doubt), at least they won't cover it up, blame it on others, make excuses, etc.

Who's Obammy?

Romney says he's a businessman. Not!! Businessmen create wealth. Romney is a banker. Bankers just shuffle it around and keep as much as they can for themselves.

Isn't that a conflict of interest if Mittens win which he wont but who will he be representing the wealthy 1% or the rest of us? Ok, it's a rhetorical question.

Rilli - If you get The Washington Post - on line - read the most damning expose of Romney and Bain Capital

By the way - Sports Authority which he claims to be instrumental in creating jobs -

The Sports Authority, Inc. opened its first store in
November 1987 in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. In 1990 Kmart acquired the
company.^[2]
Five years later, The Sports Authority had expanded to 136 stores in 26 states,
and was spun off from parent Kmart

The venture capital syndicate was led by William Blair
Venture Partners and included First Chicago Venture Partners, Bain Capital, Phillips-Smith Venture
Partners, Marquette Venture Partners, and Bessemer Securities.

Romney takes full credit – however there were five companies
involved.

The republican motto: Kiss rich and powerfull people's a$$ and that will somehow make my life better

It must be hard bending over backwards , looking in the mirror while doing it.

Obama's a Man; remember when he showed his "pectorals" on the beach. What a Man!!! (and GREAT Leader to boot)

Yeah, Pat, it is amazing what one can do with Photoshop these days, innit ? Airbrush anyone ? Ha !

Does this mean he is a leader because he has GREAT "pecs" ? Ha !

ABO 2102 :-)

Pacem. Don't know about Obama's pecs, but Bush surely was a great leader because of the vapid, totally uncomprehending look on his face. The drunken stagger exiting the helicopter was also presidential, especially when he saluted the only person watching him, and got no response. Indignant, Bush kept trying, but the man refused to acknowledge him. Great leadership.

North GA, Pat was talking about Obama, not Bush. Nor was I. Bush and Obama are not the subjects of this discussion. Bush was goofy, yeah. So is Obama. Lighten up, mate . I just got a chuckle out of Pat's gushing, is all. :-)

I was just thinking. How will the Mitt(ens) White house handle all his wives??? Separate (but equal) rooms? Just wondering...

Obama 2012!!!

AWOL and Voice of wisdom (?) LDS members no longer legally practice polygamy.

Thinking people always try to learn something new everyday :-)

The Mormons are a religious and cultural group related to Mormonism, a religious movement beginning with the visions of Joseph Smith in upstate New York during the 1820s. After Smith's death in 1844 the Mormons followed Brigham Young to what would become the Utah Territory. Today a vast majority of Mormons are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) while a minority are members of other independent churches. Many Mormons are also either independent or non-practicing. The center of Mormon cultural influence is in Utah, and North America has more Mormons than any other continent, though the majority of Mormons live outside the United States.

Mormons have developed a strong sense of communality that stems from their doctrine and history. During the latter half of the 19th century many Mormons practiced plural marriage, a form of religious polygamy. Mormons dedicate large amounts of time and resources to serving in their church, and many young Mormons choose to serve a full time proselyting mission. Mormons have a health code that eschews alcoholic beverages, tobacco, coffee, tea, and other addictive substances. They tend to be very family-oriented, and have strong connections across generations and with extended family. Mormons also have a strict law of chastity, requiring abstention from sexual relations outside of marriage and strict fidelity within marriage.

Mormons self-identify as Christian, though some of their beliefs differ from mainstream Christianity. Mormons believe in the Bible, as well as other books of scripture, such as the Book of Mormon. They have a unique view of cosmology, and believe that all people are spirit-children of God. Mormons believe that returning to God requires following the example of Jesus Christ, and accepting his atonement through specific ordinances such as baptism. They believe the authority to perform these ordinances was restored through Joseph Smith, and that their church is guided by living prophets and apostles. Central to Mormon faith is the belief that God speaks to his children and answers their prayers.

Cheers !

I never mentioned anything about polygamy, talk to me about the the God of Mormonism, Elohim and this star from which he resides, That's what needs some more discussion...

AWOL,... Voice of wisdom (?) brought up the polygamy angle. The subject of this story is politics, not religion. Please find a story about Mormons, or get to know some, if you seek answers about Elohim. Cheers !

Again, you can't answer the question, how about this, what constellation is the planet which is close to star kolob located, further what is the name of the planet?

AWOL, you truely are AWO Loose, as we said in the military. This is a political thread, not religious. Please use Bing and go to a thread discussing various religions.

Yeah, since the best place to get information about someone is the website where they post their recruitment propaganda...

My guess is their favorite, Florida, followed by Wisconsin, Indiana, Michigan, Arizona, Texas, the ususal suspects.

Linda, Please remove the blinkers !

Thinking people always try to learn something new everyday :-)

The Mormons are a religious and cultural group related to Mormonism, a religious movement beginning with the visions of Joseph Smith in upstate New York during the 1820s. After Smith's death in 1844 the Mormons followed Brigham Young to what would become the Utah Territory. Today a vast majority of Mormons are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church) while a minority are members of other independent churches. Many Mormons are also either independent or non-practicing. The center of Mormon cultural influence is in Utah, and North America has more Mormons than any other continent, though the majority of Mormons live outside the United States.

Mormons have developed a strong sense of communality that stems from their doctrine and history. During the latter half of the 19th century many Mormons practiced plural marriage, a form of religious polygamy. Mormons dedicate large amounts of time and resources to serving in their church, and many young Mormons choose to serve a full time proselyting mission. Mormons have a health code that eschews alcoholic beverages, tobacco, coffee, tea, and other addictive substances. They tend to be very family-oriented, and have strong connections across generations and with extended family. Mormons also have a strict law of chastity, requiring abstention from sexual relations outside of marriage and strict fidelity within marriage.

Mormons self-identify as Christian, though some of their beliefs differ from mainstream Christianity. Mormons believe in the Bible, as well as other books of scripture, such as the Book of Mormon. They have a unique view of cosmology, and believe that all people are spirit-children of God. Mormons believe that returning to God requires following the example of Jesus Christ, and accepting his atonement through specific ordinances such as baptism. They believe the authority to perform these ordinances was restored through Joseph Smith, and that their church is guided by living prophets and apostles. Central to Mormon faith is the belief that God speaks to his children and answers their prayers.

Cheers !

Ahhh, we hear from a fantasy/fairytale believer. Honey, those are the words of MAN in that "holy scripture." Never trust the written word that is based on decades (and even centuries) of oral stories. Every "word" that was supposedly spoken by Jesus was never recorded until a minimum of 40+ years after his death. Do you really believe that the first gospel (and the other three that came years later) are actually his words???? That is the problem with Christianity today (and throughout history.)

But, your comments, and all other religious comments in this thread are totally non-germane to the article and the forum.

anti, Amen... oops ! I mean, well said. I will forthwith cease responding to any questions or comments on any non-germane subjects . Cheers.

Do Mormons believe that the God who is in charge today is the same God that has always ruled? Or have there been a series of Gods in charge so to speak?

Ali Weinberg forgot to mention that in that time frame over 40 steel mills went bankrupt and that China was dumping steel products on the U.S. market (dumping means selling below cost) since 1995. Clinton was president during that time and did not place import taxes on the Chinese steel. Bush finally put tariffs on the Chinese steel in 2002.

What sense does it make to pay U.S. Union Labor costs when Chinese steel is purchased below U.S. production costs.

If you leftists/socialists would spend some time looking into the history of steel costs and steel mill profits and not take the word of UNION bigmouths who don't want to reveal the truth then you will remain the unintelligent dolts you are.

When the government works against a business as Clinton did against the steel industry and Unions will not cooperate in reducing costs, a business or company can work to be profitable, but when product can be had on the open market below the cost of manufacture, a company cannot stay in business.

Is that so far for you socailist/leftist to figure out? You can buy a U.S. lamp for $50 and the same lamp is produced by Thailand for $30, are you going to spend $50 or $30.

And you all know that Chinese labor costs is well below U.S. Labor costs. How much?

The cost of Chinese factory labor is a paltry 64 cents an hour. For comparison, hourly factory compensation in the U.S. in 2002 was $21.11, and an average of $14.22 in the 30 foreign countries covered by the existing BLS report.

http:// www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_50/b3912051_mz011.htm

Reason enough to demand Union Concessions and government assistance that didn't arrive until 2002 3 years after Romney left Bain?

wilsonaide-

How about management concessions? If what is earned by workers in China is to be the determinant of what is earned by workers here, why not similar proportionality for managements in the two countries? Oops! That could be envy!