suck it up gal ... the night is young ... the right is wrong ... the left is singing a song.

Romney got a 10 million dollar bailout at Bain! Mr. Anti-Bailout himself got a bailout!

Aw, that is so precious Feisty.

A very important accomplishment being the very first poster.

Dare to dream.

[A very important accomplishment being the very first poster.]

Yes it is, but even more rewarding is seeing how it rritates you so much.

But giving $535 million tax dollars to a company that you knew was going bankrupt is not immoral and was the right thing to do, eh AnaB?

Say, Imhelt is Obama's jobs guy - how many jobs has GE shipped oversees?

Oh and let's not forget about Obama's 'Guy on Wall Street' the guy he called FIRST in Jan. 2009 to help fix the economy - John COrzine.

AnaB - was it immoral when Corzine lost $40 Billion in investors money he invested, or when he flat out stole $1.5 billion that was sitting in investment accounts?

AnaBanana - FYI, if the people making over 1 million a year would just go away from the USA. You will have nothing. The United States would not be the United Sates as it is Today. If you want the government to give you everything, go to Cuba. (they wont give it all, you have to work as always, just that you have what you think is fair).

Spanks great job blaming all ills on President Obama. Where were you when W., people were screwing up even worse? Jari, vultures, like Romney and Bain, need to go. They make us look bad as Americans. Greedy Bastards they are called by most. Buffet and Jobs (RIP) and many others make us look good.

But Spanks and Jari, if you want to keep paying your tax dollars so Romney's pockets can be lined with gold, keep it up. I don't want to. Better, more humane uses for my tax dollars.

Every debate he has mentioned three things buddy. Private Company (Bain and others), Olympics, and Gov. of Massachusetts.

Her popularity is about the same as his, so probably neither.

Grrrrrrrr. Can anyone recommend a decent laptop? My desktop keyboard just died (that pc is older than dirt) and this laptop is slower than Mr. phinephancy's driving!!!!!

phine,

I entered the Apple world for the first time. I have a Macbook Pro.

I love it and everything about Apple. I go to apple school tomorrow for a private lesson.

I am smitten!!!

Hmm, a Macbook. I will look it up (if this slowpoke will let me). Must admit the idea of something new like this excites me. I've been whining (yes, I need cheese with that whine) for a new 'puter or laptop for a while.

Thanks Northstar!!!!!

Yes. Phine...get a Mac. You won't be sorry!

Will check out the Mac tomorrow!!! I am getting excited about this.

Jody- That would be hard to do ... out of one side of the mouth spouts "Obama" has cost millions of jobs" while from the other side we hear "those teat sucking socialist ows-ers refuse to get a job."

Is vulture, er venture capitalism a result of deregulation? I am just curious how this became such a booming industry for Wall Street.

So Sayers the queen of recycled talking points.

Read the Corn article in Mother Jones yet? You did, after all, recycle the headline in your post last night.

Then again, it was a day old DNC talking point, so it was fair game.

Venture capital arrived on the scene in 1958 in its modern form.

To use the gun analogy favored by the NRA ... venture caoital does not kill businesses, unscrupulous venture capitalist do.

Phine,

the more I read about Bain the more I am reminded of Al Cheechi and his business as a corporate raider year ago. He got controling interst in NorthWest Airlines and ran it into big time debt. Took his profits and flew away. i think he did end up in some legal trouble.

So our state stepped in and gave NW huge loans and concessions here in MN. Now NW is Delta Airlines.

Ideology,

Thanks. Just remember the old days when your local bank was where one got your "venture capital"

And I am now down to 2 dressers!!!

Northstar,

I think if we want to keep our communities together, we will have to try the same scenario in other cities. So many of these "venture capitalists" really are vultures (Drat, admitting Rick Perry is right about something still gets me)

NoJo darling, come up with a list of poets that you actually read yet? Tell you what, I'll read it if you respond.

What the heck are you mumbling about No Joe? The So Sayers Queen of nonsensical, anti-Obama rants who repeats disproven stories as fact like the $200 million a day for the Indonesia trip. Sorry, lady, you have zero credibility.

No, didn't have time for Corn or Mother Jones today. I got my "talking point" from The Washington Spectator where I read the term "vulture capitalist" in context with an excellent article about Willard Romney and Bain Capital way last spring. As I recall, Edward Lewis was also a "vulture capitalist" who discovered that building something of value was more satisfying than destroying it. Willard never learned that because he "likes firing people".

Phine,

I think Perry learned to turn a good phrase"vulture captalism" from listening to Ann Richards all those years in Texas.

phinephancy.

The economic and stock market boom during the Clinton years was driven, in large part, by venture capital investing in start up companies. Remember all those exciting and profitable IPO's, innovation and new technology companies? ....and all the jobs that were created in those years by all that private sector money flying around?

Venture capital businesses have been around since prior to World War II, and even further back in some form.

ideology,

I am not around here much during the day.

Can you fill me in on your poetry challenge?

I love poetry.

Phine, I am down to 2 pairs of reading glasses and I can't find either pair. I've looked on the top of my head but not there ... did get all my books put away.

Northstar, there is no challenge, I just want to know if JoJo and NoJo live by bread alone.

Candice,

My problem with the venture capitalist of today is the way they come in and decimate a company then leave, with the community in shambles. I have seen it happen in several small towns. There is a difference between venture capital in a start up business and coming into one that is established, yet needing capital. It is not a black/white issue. Lots of gray. When the company goes under, it is not just the employees there gone, it is everybody that supports it that gets hurt.

Ideology,

Darling, look at where you put your books, bet you will find a pair there! (or your sock drawer, found Mr. phinephancy's there once and still don't know how or why)

Oh, in poetry, give me that old loving couple of Elizabeth Barrett and Robert Browning!

Actually, venture capitalism has been around since the gold bankers in ancient times. They held your gold, but lent out a portion for interest on the loan.

Modern venture capitalism, around for only sixty years or so, has fueled an enormous growth in start up businesses. It's a high risk, therefore, high reward, business to be in.

Too bad nobody ever got the chance to ask Steve Jobs how he felt about it. Tell you what- ask Bill Gates he's still around.

Candice, the topic is driven by whether or not Bain Capital are good boys or bad boys. As they refuse to disclose we may never know. A perusal of their SEC filings reveals little. One is left with innuendo ... and I will resist the obvious pun.

Northstar,

No one will ever beat her "poor George" speech at the DNC convention!

Phinep - you should totally go with a macbook pro. They cost a lot more, but bullet proof and never, ever fail.

Of course you will be supporting the most profitable corp in the world, one which builds absolutely nothing in this country, so that'd be kinda going against everything you seem to believe.

Apple seems to get a pass from libbies though. IT rapes and pillages as much or more than Exxon, Kock industries, or any other highly successful corp, but it makes the shiny products the libbies love.

In fact is is the very 'devil' you decry everyday - it is the most profitable company around, sits on over $60 Billion cash [which is absolutely astounding] yet continues to makes it's products solely oversees.

So it would seem it maximizes what you would call the greed quotient.

Guess you should go with a 'less greedy' manufacturer.

Oh and by the way - who do you suppose funded Apple back in the day?

Yep, vulture capitalists.

There is a difference between venture capitalists and vulture capitalists. Most venture capitalism is good. The terms themselves reasonably define the difference. Bain Capital has some success stories; it also bankrupted 22% of the profitable firms they bought. Venture capitalists looked to invest in start-ups and innovatives businesses and push them to profitability but they keep re-investing in those buisinesses as well as looking for others to buy. Vulture capitalists invest in profitable businesses, leverage those businesses by borrowing heavily against the good credit ratings and then take that money out of the business and invest it in another company and repeat the cycle. That sucking out the money from one business to buy another then bankrupts the previously profitable company or so damages its market share by depleting its ability to invest in research and development, the business is nearly destroyed--Sealy Mattresses is an example of the latter Bain adventure.

Ideology - the fact checkers have been having a hard time pinning down actual statistics and, if there were more successes I would think Romney be broadcasting the numbers. But the truth is you really can't measure a successful venture versus a failed one. How many jobs were created at the company, in the community, nationally. How many jobs were lost because of the jobs that were lost....in the community, etc.

Most investors put money up because they are supportive of the company, the product, the cause -- and they want the company to prosper. Very few investors put up money in companies they're pretty sure aren't going to make it.

If you buy a house that the previous owner lost in a foreclosure --- are you a bad person? Are you taking an opportunity to get a good deal because of someone else's misery?

It's hard to say who is a good boy or bad boy. It's a matter of perception, I suppose.

Spanky,

Taking you up on your challenge, please name me an American made laptop. Not being snarky here. I am truly interested and willing to put my money towards buying American.

bankrupted 22% of the profitable firms they bought.

And therefore 78% succeeded. That's actually a positive track record, Jody.

Not my challenge Phinep. THere are no electronics made in the US that I know of. But then again Dell and Gateway used to be made here.

That's not the point. You [and others] appear to be trying to draw a distinction between venture and 'vulture capitalism. Much like you all seem to want to distinguish between profits and 'greed.'

My point is Apple is SUPER profitable. It could easily bring some manufacturing back here. IT just would not make as much money.

But it already has $60 Bill in cash. So I ask you phinep - how much is enough? Why won't it tone down it's evil quest for profits and do something to help US workers?

Isn't that what you all want?

Of course maxing out profit is the whole frigging point, but I have watch enough Maddow to know you all just don't get it, and never will.

Candice, If I were the one who supplied the mortgage knowing that the owner would eventually default and the house return to me, I would be a bad person.And if I transformed the mortgage into a NCDS I would be a very greedy bad person.

The question asked is this how Bain operates.

Spanky,

You are right, I will never get it. BTW, do you not see something shameful in the fact that we manufacture nothing anymore? But, at least the bottom line is growing for some (including Apple), while America goes further into decline.

And for the record, Steve Jobs is admired for his imagination and innovation. I am not thrilled with his shipping jobs overseas. Two different things.

Companies like Apple exist today only because of venture capital. THat's millions of jobs.

Bain didn't supply the original mortgage. Bain comes in after the failure, picks up the pieces, then figures out what to do.

Sometimes break apart and sell, sometimes infuse money, sometimes both.

But then again the only time Obama has gotten involved in business - GM he laid some people off, sold out many dealerships and cut expenses.

THe difference is Bain does it with private money. Obama did it with ours.

Of course since GM he has branched out to Solyndra and other failed projects that have cost jobs, tax revenue and tax payments.

Phinep - Ah, but same man. Gotta take the good with the bad. Like Romney and Bain - far more success than failure per Candice's statistics.

Ideology,

Jody says Bain bankrupted 22%. That means 78% companies succeeded. That ratio of success makes me believe they were interested in seeing companies succeed.

Spanky and Phine checkout a company called Union Built PC, they sell all kinds of desktops, notebooks, and servers all assembled in the US using union labor. I think you find their pricing fairly competitive with dell and hp. They build some dandy machines and like the others will custom build to your specs. Be American Buy American right folks.

Candice, I have not looked into what are positive or negative success rates in that industry ... perhaps tomorrow, I am on the east coast. The suspicion that Bain has not alleviated is that some of the failures were premeditated. They would obviously mask this with successes.

Thanks Forrest, but I have bought nothing but Apples since 2001.

They just do not break, or fail. I still have an original IPOD I bought in 2001, and and Imac [desktop computer] that still works like a charm.

And what is up with you east coasters? Do you ever go to sleep. I'm exhausted and it's only 8:30.

Get out of the office Spanky ... must be a nice bar with a view around.

Union built pc. Forrest, will check it out first thing in the morning! Thank you!!

Ideology,

Find your glasses yet?

blushing ... with my books!

I don't sleep right or enough, for years I used to work a rotating shift of a month of days, a month of second shift, a month of 3rd shift and then back to days, I have not been right since, plus I have always been a night owl by nature. It is probably not healthy but I generally only sleep about 6 hours a day and that often comes in two different hits, however when I am ready to sleep I can sleep in a bowling alley if I need to. I once sleep through a tornado that uprooted a 3 foot diameter oak tree and deposited it on my grand marquis and smashed it in half, Mrs Grump was a few blocks away visiting my sister and they were huddled in her basement after the sirens went off, she came home and was hysterical because I never answered the phone, and then she saw the car smashed in the driveway, she had to come in the back door because of branches in the way of the front door, and found me sleeping on the couch. She woke me up and I was like geezus I lay down for a nap and now look at this crap what the hell happened, she said we got hit by a tornado and you slept right through it you nutty bastard.

Forrest,

LOL It must be a man thing. I can tell the hubby something or try talking to him and he doesn't hear a word I say. He can sleep through a loud scifi movie. However, be 3 rooms away, doors closed and whisper the word money and he is up and wanting to know what I am talking about!

Ideology,

Told you so! :)

Ha, not me I would get robbed, when I finally fell asleep the wife and kids could pick my pockets clean. When the kids were little I would be playing with them in the family room and I would wake up in the middle of the floor, I would crash and they would throw a blanket on me and leave me there. I would lay in the kids room and read them a story, then wake up in their room, and they would be gone, they would get in bed with the wife because my snoring scared them.

ideology,

Indeed, One does not live by bread alone.

In the end, it is truth and beauty. And quantum physics shows that truth includes the observer.

So it is Beauty. Beauty of a poem, painting, music, dance .

The most beautiful painting I have ever seen is the Maesta by Giotto. It hangs in room two of the Uffizi Gallery in Florence Italy. Walking through the doorway I saw it on the far wall and it took my breath away. It brought me to tears. I wanted to sit in that room all day and drink in its beauty.

My favorite sentence ever is : "Gradient is the elixer of youth" It is the opening sentence in the book, On Mountains.

I have my memories of beauty in my pocket and am othe lookout each day for more.

I like boobs! They are awesome!

Forrest,

i think you have the beginning of a poem. :o))

If not a poem at least a limerick maybe.

Forrest, a haiku perhaps?

Candice, so you think purposely bankrupting 22% of the profitable companies Bain bought is acceptable because they didn't bankrupt the other 78%? Don't forget, Candice, in that 78% they didn't bankrupt lies the rubble of Sealy Mattresses and others like it which are now no longer #1 in their line of business but somewhere at the bottom. You can use 78% to justify Romney's practices all you want but purposely bankrupting 22% of companies and lining your own pockets with the millions taken from those firms, leaving the employees with no jobs, robbing their pension funds and then taxpayers forced to replace the stolen pension money via the "Pension Guarantee Corporation" is despicable.

If you steal you are a thief, you can't brag and say well I only steal 22% of the time. These people don't invest in as much as they divest these companies, Carl Ichan is their mentor you look for companies having cash flow problems and who's parts are worth more than the whole and they put cash in to get control, then break them up and sell off the pieces and suck all the cash out, many of these companies they had no intention of saving, and they knew that from the start.

The comparison is entirely bogus and not intellectual. Bain invested to make money primarily while govt bailout is to save companies and jobs. The premise are totally different.

Romney as a nominee is rape of conservatism. Terrible mistake by GOP..there is black hole ahead.

The premise and process is certainly the same. The motivation might be different but the results are identical.

I recall the President touting the success of the financial bail out (another venture capital project on the part of the government). I recall he was pleased the "country" made a profit on that venture.

And the President's friends and donors made out quite well on the government's endeavors.

Yep. Very much the same and a very good comparison.

Yes you are right, the motivation is entirely different. Robbers kill, soldiers also kill, yes the gun is same and the result identical. It is motivation that differentiate good from bad.

Romney structured deals from which he would benefit. President Obama structured deals for political reasons and that ultimately paid off his friends.

In today's talking point, and by your definition, it sounds like they're both robbers to me.

Immoral?

Huh, then Rahm, Daley and the new guy Lew are immoral.

Now why would Obama choose to surround himself with people of such character?

And let's not forget about Summers, Geitner. THey made a buck or two at Goldman Sachs.

Northstar, I don't know how much Bain lost or made on those deals.

I know Bain was involved with restructuring and saving Staples (53,000 employees), and Burlington Coat Factory (28,000 employees), Domino's (10,000 employees), Sealy (4,270 employees).

And Bain was involved in restructuring and keeping viable Toy's R Us (70,000 employees). Back then getting a new job didn't take very long like it does today. Maybe the K Bee Toy people who lost their jobs wound up working at Toys R Us.

Well put, Wm.

And in what fantasy land does this 'fair market' exist?

Name one.

Fair markets...lets see...maybe they exist in 3rd world countries and lesser developing nations where there isn't competition. I'm not sure.

Third world countries, and economies like India and Russia suffer from favoritism and corruption because they lack a well defined, respected and enforced rule of law. Fair markets exist when the participants play by the same rules and are not rewarded for hiding information. Operating with superior information is not good if you are also the party that controls the information.

Uh, not even close my man.

Ross Perot.

But really so what - they are all stinking rich. Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Jack Lew, Clintons.

Oh and Elizabeth Warren rakes in the fat stacks. Multi-millionaire.

Third wealthiest to run after Ross Perot and Steve Forbes. Also one of the 4,000 wealthiest Americans.

Forgot about Perot. He didn't seem to claim that he was smart because he was rich. If anything, he came across more as a cross among Thomas Edison, a college professor and an hyper active business owner. The Obamas are well off by most standards, but theirs is the result of two six figure incomes. The Clintons were much the same, plus his books and speaking. I'd be curious whether the Bushes are ahead of the Clintons.

He's helping his friends at your expense, ebda.

ebda,

I'm not missing the parable. In fact I actually think your parable was a pretty good comeback.

In the case of the Obama administration, when I say he was helping his friends, I should have explained I meant cronyism....because that's what it was.