Don't like to say this Bev., but you're aging yourself. I didn't know who the Carter was when my mother said the same thing and I still don't.

Too bad for Mitt Romney, he might actually be a decent candidate for President, but he's a moderate in an extremely ultra-super evenagelically conservative party.

Interesting thing about the ACA being in the Supreme Court. If they uphold it, it may engergize the GOP to defeat President Obama, if they strike down the law, it may energize the Democrats to take back the House. Either way, the SCOTUS decision will have political implications, again. The appointments of Thomas, Scalia and Roberts have been the most political in the nations history and we will be paying for centuries after they die.

With the way he changes his mind i don't believe she is his only wife !

Here she talks about her 5 sons. What about the students who are depending on us to pass the Dream Act? Seems Mitt doesn't have a concern in the world about their futures.

What about the students who are depending on us to pass the Dream Act?

This is a big issue that I part company with Romney and GOP on. I hope that people can start seeing with all the BILLIONS in taxes (sales taxes, utility and service taxes, property taxes indirectly through rents) these immigrants have paid that many of them deserve a break.

Here she talks about her 5 sons. What about the students who are depending on us to pass the Dream Act? Seems Mitt doesn't have a concern in the world about their futures.

Ever wonder how much in tuition a legal student pays to attend college here? 100%. But if you come here illegally then supine politicians have no problem using taxpayers money to give you in-state tuition. You think that's fair?

BTW A couple of interesting statistics are coming out of Alabama and Arizona. It seems that the unemployment rates in those states are falling (statistically significantly) faster than other states. They are now investigating whether this could be linked to their stricter enforcement of immigration laws.

Alan: Could it also be that be because all of the hispanic Americans have left those states. This does three things, opens up jobs and removes those who weren't employed from the unemployment ranks from those states AND adds to the unemployment ranks of the other states making those states look better.

Could it also be that be because all of the hispanic Americans have left those states. This does three things, opens up jobs and removes those who weren't employed from the unemployment ranks from those states AND adds to the unemployment ranks of the other states making those states look better.

Yes it could. I have an open mind to the reasons until some studies are completed. However, the one law of economics that I do believe in is supply and demand. If the labor supply is drying up then employers are going to have to pay more for their labor. I cannot understand why the left supports so much illegal immigration when the people who are most affected are those at the lower end of the income and educational scale. If you subtract the estimated 11m illegals from the potential workforce wages for those at the bottom will rise. Why doesn't the left support e-verify and other systems that will force employers to comply?

Now it appears that DHS is making harder to deport illegals caught by local law enforcement.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/joshgerstein/1111/House_panel_OKs_subpoena_to_DHS_for_immigration_data.html

Truly, nobody cares about the wives of these guys...they are simply decorating items .... trophy wives , or pushy ones who want the limelight on them as Newt wife does. They make no difference, no impact and have nothing to do with their husbands victory. In the case of these women, they are all losers. Obama will get the next election, hands down and that is the reality check...whether you like it or not. He is not perfect but none of these bozos have anything to offer....so ....we go on with the play until the curtain comes down.

Americans can sympathize with the poor woman. We are all exasperated because of the phony unhonorable republican obstruction the last 3 years.

Beverly I bet no body married you right?

it seems that she should be running instead of her husband

Last time around your boys stay out of service to help your lieing husband while other people kids was being killed. U got the nerve to talk about what other mother's cry to have but can't.

You don't restore America by having Karl Rove deep in your campaign. Rove is just about the worst thing that ever happened to our country.

Never will you come across a bigger liar than he.

Yeah Pat and you don't restore America by doubling down on the National debt like Obama has. Obama stands heads above Rove in being the worst thing for this country. I beg to differ Pat, Obama tells lies that are so convincing, he makes YOU think he's NOT lying.

I think he has the best chance of restoring America and making her great again.

..."restoring America" to what? The America with affordable insurance and medicine? The America with better medicine for the better-off? The America that abandons its women when they're raped? The America that requires its immigrants and children of immigrants--pretty much everyone in the country--to speak a foreign language, but cracks down on people who speak or read in another? The America that respects its people, its history, its land, and its laws?

As a voter, I need to know which; as a candidate, Romney has made which perfectly unclear, at least when he's not pandered to his party's hateful platform. I cannot vote for him, unless his character fundamentally changes--not that yet another change in character would make more more comfortable with him.

Never will you come across a bigger liar than he

I've already come across Obama who beats anyone hands down, no contest, as the biggest liar.

Talk about leading from behind. Riddle me this connies: Mrs. Romney has 5 count em 5 "naughty boys."

Has any of them volunteered to serve in their country's armed forces?

Where was Mitt during Viet Nam?

Just askin.

I just love how he's trotting the wife out to handle the crowds, and I"m sure all the "Tough" questions that he can't handle.

Come on out from behind you wife's skirts you wussy!

TorpedoYou

Answer to 1st question..... Nope!

Answer to 2nd question..... France

It takes a peculiarly low, loathsome character to lie about one's dying mother for political purposes, but that is what Obama did while campaigning, and while ramming his HCR down our collective throats.

His lie about listening to her arguing on the phone with her health insurer is possibly the most despicable thing I've ever heard from any politician- both because her health insurance was never a problem, and because he never made it to the hospital in Hawaii to be able to hear her. Says he thought she had more time.

It was inconvenient for him to visit- but convenient enough to blatantly lie about it for political gain.

That is the character of the idol of the Obama cult- that they dismiss it tells me all I need to know about his adherents.

Torpedo You - Just where was Obama during VietNam? He was sitting somewhere in an Islamic country studying the Quaran.

You people and your hypocracy. Bill Clinton dodged the draft... Jimmy Carter served in the navy... but Obama baby never served in our military... I wonder why... I wonder if his citizenship record was up to snuff at the time... or is it that he's a flaming liberal that would no more consider serving in the military than he would consider poking daggers into his eyes.

Brian B:

You asked: "Just where was Obama during VietNam? He was sitting somewhere in an Islamic country studying the Quaran."

When the United States finally left Viet Nam in 1975, President Obama was about 14-years-old. I'm searching my memory and I can't remember ever running across a G.I. there who was that young.

Where were you during the conflict in Viet Nam?

Hey Brian:

Since you are busy playing the "Obama is a Muslim" card, maybe you should Google Grover Norquist Islam and after seeing his ties to radical Islamic extremists, ask yourself whether any Republican signing a pledge to him should be charged with treason?

NO JO...

I see you have your hate meter on high today.

Seeing you could not keep on topic, I will help you out.

Ann Romney sounds like a wonderful mother and grandmother. Love her "name salad" try . I as a mother of only two sons , do the same thing.

Now NO JO try to soften your heart this year.

Nojo ALL Blow...I DISTINCTLY recall YOU trotting out YOUR seriously ill granddaughter during the healthcare debate....Just how low can you go lady. Oh I forgot...You are First Read's resident pole dancer now aren't you?

David Walker - No kidding about Obama. Nice of you to make the point that he was 14... and I suppose you took my answer to mean that he should have been in the military... not too bright are you?

I was in high school during Viet Nam. I enlisted right after high school but was never sent to Nam. I am still classified a Viet Nam veteran though because I enlisted before the war was declared over.

Al - I suppose you use the internet search engine to find everything... and you believe it too. That's the problem with people like you... you come across some bogus story that some flaming idiot posts on some webpage somewhere and you suck it in like it's a fact. I suppose you believe the world is going to end on Dec 21, 2012 because you can find stories on the internet that says so. More on.

Just how low can you go lady

Just when you think the NJ nut job can sink any lower... BAM... she surprises you!

Over on First Thought's this morning, she accused a FR regular who happens to ♥ history of being a 'self-avowed' Communist!

Why are the right wingers VOID of any intellectual curiosity?

BrianB:

Why didn't you ask where was Mr. Obama between 1963 and 1975 rather than use Viet Nam as the identifier? I think most folks would have thought you were trying to make a point, particularly those who know that you bust your ass trying to find anything to make President Obama look bad. We do know you for what you are.

No, Brian, you are not classified a Viet Nam veteran if you did not got to Viet Nam. You are what is called a Viet Nam era veteran, at least with respect to the military. I'm confident given your unremitting bias, you are also called quite a number of other things.

As far as your response to Al in Visalia with respect to Grover Norquist's ties to Islam, you expose yourself as someone who is fearful of discovering information that runs counter to your dogma. Grover Norquist, like most right-wing ideologues, is a most unsavory character. Indeed, it is ironic that Norquist has been able to make a living THANKS to government. You could check that out for yourself, but facts are such a scary thing. Better to blow out that candle and curse the darkness.

@David Walker & Feisty - Typical liberal Ad Hominem attacks. When you can't debate the real issues, kill the messenger. Knock it off already...

RationalOne:

With such a clownish response, I can only assume you are preparing to throw your hat in the ring for the Republican Presidential nomination.

Why don't you show the ad hominem attack? Why don't you show how I evaded the point(s) BrianB raised? My responses were direct, on point, and completely accurate. Either rebut them or STFU.

If by some wild chance you should open a dictionary, look up ad hominem, and more importantly, find the definition of "rational".

Al - I suppose you use the internet search engine to find everything... and you believe it too. That's the problem with people like you... you come across some bogus story that some flaming idiot posts on some webpage somewhere and you suck it in like it's a fact. I suppose you believe the world is going to end on Dec 21, 2012 because you can find stories on the internet that says so. More on.

You mean flaming idiots like Rep Frank Wolf (R-VA), jihadwatch.org, Michelle Malkin, Free Republic, Frank Gaffney, Potomac Tea Party report, Atlas shrugged, and other assorted right wing nutjob websites that spew the Obama's a Muslin and birther nonsense that you do? I agree, they are all liars and morons!

David walker - come again?

Adhominem - appealing to emotions: appealing to people's emotions and prejudices instead of their ability to think (formal )

Of course your posts don't reflect this, then again words like clownish, STFU are really part of what you don't consider to be emotional or prejudicial. Interesting premise on your part though. Not really the first time you have misplaced your ability to think by substituting it with emotional spin instead, is it?.

I can't believe you are really comparing a state mandate to a national one. The Mass. State mandate was a bi-partisan one that was debated and voted on in by both parties. If someone doesn't like it, they can move to another state. Obamacare was crammed down our throats by Dems and libtards. There was no bi-partisan effort, nor was there any input by Repubs. It was pushed through, not by votes, but by procedures that had to beat Scott Brown's installation in the Senate (coincidentally from Mass.) I can't just move from another state to avoid Obamacare, I would have to renounce my American citizenship. I live here BECAUSE I don't want to live in a Socialist country. But all you socialists don't want to move, instead turning America INTO one.

Rational One

If you get sick and go to an emergency room in any hospital in the land, they will treat you, that's the law. Hospitals in Alaska aren't allowed to say "sorry, you don't have money, we aren't going to treat you." Hospitals in Montana aren't allowed to say "we're a Red State, and we have the freedom not to treat the uninsured." New Hampshire doctors can't say "hey, man, you're in the Live Free or Die state, why should we treat you don't have insurance?" Why should doctors be forced to treat people like you for free?

In "Obamacare", if you choose not to buy insurance, you can pay a fine, it's not like you go to jail. Just like, if you park at an expired meter, you pay a traffic ticket. Do you have the vapors over following traffic laws? PS Who's more "macho" than Australians? Australians have universal health insurance.

Ya know irrational one I believe it would be a good thing if the likes of you left the country since you don't have the slightest idea of what a socialist is..You may want to consider Mexico or better yet pick any African country of your choice.

When a country's government is in bed with corporations, that is the classic definition of "National Socialism" which is what America is fast becoming. The last time that was tried was in 1933 Germany and they were called NAZI's.

@Amy - Of course hospitals will treat you, then they stick you with a huge bill if you don't have insurance. They don't just treat you and say, "Ok go home now and we will bill the taxpayers". Oh no, they will bill you, turn it over to collectors, etc. If that's a risk someone want's to take, it's THEIR RIGHT to take that risk. If you like Australia so much, move (and vote) there! Don't make me have to live here with your socialist laws.

Well explained Rationalone. You can't make the libs see that there's miles of difference between what Romney faced in his govenership and what was forced through fiat by the federal government.

If Obamacare was such important legislation, how come the democrats disallowed the republicans to debate it? How come it had to be implemented before the 2010 elections? Talk about deceitful! The majority of Americans do not support Obamacare.

The real grand thing is... the liberals think the republicans and conservatives have forgotten about how the democrats forced their hand with Obamacare. Here's a clue liberals - we haven't forgotten what snakes the democrats were. 2010 was only a stepping stone. The angst isn't over.

Torpedo you said: When a country's government is in bed with corporations, that is the classic definition of "National Socialism"

Wow - I never thought I'd hear you admit that the president is in bed with corporations. He's the head of the government... thereby through your statement he's the ringleader. It's true too... GM, Chrysler, and of course the big one GE. Why do you think the mainstream media never says anything bad about Obama? It's because GE is the parent company of several large media firms.

When a country's government is in bed with corporations, that is the classic definition of "National Socialism" which is what America is fast becoming. The last time that was tried was in 1933 Germany and they were called NAZI's.

Yup, exactly what Obama did with all the bailouts... I'm just waiting to see if the Senate tries to force through their own Ermächtigungsgesetz (Enabling Act) or if he will just try to continue ruling by decrees (executive orders).

Rational One

Those bills don't get collected, that's the point. Guess you've never heard of bankruptcy court. You say patients have the "right" to risk running up a bill they can't pay, but hospitals don't have the right to decline that risk, do they? They can't say "you know, you have thousands of dollars in old credit card debt, we don't think you're a good risk for paying back your medical bills, so, no, we aren't going to treat you."

@Amy - I can't believe you are so corporatist that you are defending the hospital??? Millions of people make bad choices, they buy homes they cannot afford and then whine when they lose it. They rack up huge credit card bills as students with no jobs and then whine because they have poor credit. It's not your job to keep people from making bad choices. It's WHY we have bankruptcy court is to give these people a second chance...

RationalOne-674831

Keep posting, because you make no sense. Just like today's modern Republican Party; it's "pork" if it goes to another state, "infrastructure improvement" if it's yours; it's OK to declare bankruptcy for medical bills if you choose not to be insured, but not's OK for healthcare providers to expect to be paid. Republican hypocrisy, it's limitless.

@Amy - Too bad you are making assumptions. No hypocrisy here. I'm not a Republican and hated Bush. Hate Obama more, though. Voting for Romney 2012 as the only candidate who can I respect enough to be president.

Rational One,

All your talk about your right not to have heath insurance is irrational.

Being uninsured is devasating as you admitted.

The HCA begins to address the uninsured millons in the US. Most of the uninsured want health insurance but cannot afford it because of pre existing conditions, outragious preminuns because their employer does not offer coverage etc.

MA did the right thing. So did Obama and Congress in passing HCA. It is not perfect, but it is the best they could do with dealing with the party of NO. Republicans , the party of "If you get sick, hurry up and die".

@NorthstarDFL - Oh, Obamacare is far from perfect. Yes, there are things it addresses that I like, but it would have been far better had it not passed, and especially the way it did. There are better ideas out there had there been a chance to discuss them (instead of Pelosi's famous, "we have to pass the bill to know what's in it" LOL)

Personally, I have insurance, which is actually ridiculous. I don't even use my insurance because it's too expensive. I rather pay out of network, and out of pocket, because I save money. Sure, I have it in case of something major, but for the most part insurance only increases costs, and does NOTHING to control them. If everyone were to pay the doc directly, like I do, medical costs would go DOWN. It's the MIDDLE MAN who's making all the money, and Obama and Co. is in their corporate pocket!

@ RationalOne-674831:

If someone doesn't like it, they can move to another state.

There are a small number of excepts to the healthcare act....if you don't like it, work at McDonald's.

Obamacare was crammed down our throats by Dems and libtards.

That sounds like a personal problem. Try letting your Party of Noo, work with the other side for a change. If you wanted your repubs to be heard....they need to participate.

If the affordable care act is upheld, eventually we will have universal health insurance. Private health insurance is getting to be prohibitively expensive. Many corporations have already stated that it will be cheaper for them to cancel the insurance they currently have and pay the fines. When enough people are forced out of private/employer based health insurance, there will be a general demand for Medicare for all.

dirp101

Maybe someone from Massachusetts can tell us how the bill Romney implemented turned out, since I believe Obamacare was based on that experiment.

dirp -- barry promised that i would not have to change my insurance. are you saying he lied to me?

Romney was proud to help develop and sign into law a healthcare bill that included an individual mandate. It's ridiculous to say Romney's bill is acceptable to conservatives, but Obama's is not, because if residents didn't like it, they could move out of the state.

Should doctors have the "freedom" not to treat Libertarians who choose to go uninsured? Why should they be required to give their services for free? Why should those of us with insurance pay higher premiums to cover the fees doctors can't collect from the uninsured?

@Amy - It's not ridiculous to say I could move to another state. It's what states do, they compete with each other. They compete for jobs, resources, and people. They create laws that attract or repel those people, and it's easy to move from one state to another. Not so easy to emigrate to another country.

Doctors don't even know who is uninsured when they treat people. It doesn't mean that the hospitals they work for don't bill uninsured people. They still have to pay, and sometimes they pay a lot more than if they were insured. Sometimes it ruins their credit and sometimes they lose their homes. BUT, that should be a risk that THEY make the choice over, not YOU.

Romney should just point one example a day of pork in the healthcare bill and then one more a day of things in the Afa that have nothing at all to do with healthcare.

Sometimes it ruins their credit and sometimes they lose their homes

In the real world, people generally don't choose to go without insurance, they go without because their employer doesn't offer it, or they can't afford it. Under the Affordable Healthcare Act, people who can't afford insurance will get help, and everyone's premiums will go down, as more people are covered.

"Under the Affordable Healthcare Act, people who can't afford insurance will get help, and everyone's premiums will go down, as more people are covered."

Amy, do you live in Maine, or the land of OZ?

Do you really honestly believe a monstrous multi trillion dollar federal entitlement program taking over 1/7 of the economy will cause premiums to go down???

You are gullible beyond belief.

Bob, I am willing to wait and see.

I know for a fact that in previous years health insurance had gone up double digits.

This year my insurance preminums through my employer went up less than 5%. My share of the increase was less tha 2%.

How about your preminums, bob?

It is not because of Obamacare because it doesn't take effect until 2014, so what is your point.

and david axelrod? is he the kind of guy you want in your camp? sleazy chicago-style politics is causing all Americans to suffer.

Pat,

bet you supported draft avoiding Bill Clinton with no trepidation.

Bet you give Rick Perry no credit for serving in the armed forces.

because you are nothing but a leftist political zealot, and your opinions are predictable and lame.

One of many from my home state.

Bob (lotsa numbers)..Here is an excerpt from Clinton's draft letter to Col Holmes of the Univ of Ark ROTC:

"The draft was justified in World War II because the life of the people collectively was at stake. Individuals had to fight if the nation was to survive, for the lives of their countrymen and their way of life. Vietnam is no such case. Nor was Korea, an example where, in my opinion, certain military action was justified but the draft was not, for the reasons stated above.

Because of my opposition to the draft and the war, I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill, and maybe die for their country, that is, the particular policy of a particular government, right or wrong. Two of my friends at Oxford are conscientious objectors. I wrote a letter of recommendation for one of them to his Mississippi draft board, a letter which I am more proud of than anything else I wrote at Oxford last year. One of my roommates is a draft resister who is possibly under indictment and may never be able to go home again. He is one of the bravest, best men I know. His country needs men like him more than they know. That he is considered a criminal is an obscenity".

What Clinton said then is just as true today. The difference between Clinton and the rest of you connies is that he stood on principal as opposed to those like Bush, Romney, Gingrich, and Limbaugh all who avoided the draft through "family connections." And yet these hypocrites continue to spout their brand of phoney patriotism and you conservatives continue to inject it into the political dialog it like a hooker on drugs.

Perry get's credit for serving..That said..He never made it beyond Captain (Transport cargo airplane driver) which means he HAD to leave the service because of poor performance evaluations (which I would love to see) or because he choose to leave.

And since you questioning other poster's patriotism,

What did YOU do during the War Bob? Sounds like you were either too young to serve or CHICKEN????????

The 2010 massive Reublican landslide only confirmed President Obama was a failed radical ideologue, who has taken his Party and the country to the precipice of disaster.

Doubt it. But, by all means misinterpret again.

Three reasons: 1) Obamacare, which was badly mishandled and generally disliked; 2) the slow economic recovery, particularly unemployment; 3) usual off-year election gains by the minority party, following a major win by the majority party. All three together = Big Republican Wins.

Left or right...Americans are mostly non-ideological and vote their pocketbooks. Democrats failed by putting Obamacare ahead of jobs and allowing too long a bill and legislative process to occur, in the face of some of the strongest special interest opposition, in U.S. history.

Now, Republicans are about to make a similar mistake, going into the 2012 elections, over refusing to put tax increases on the negotiating table, along with their desired spending cuts.

You spoiled your point about "individual responsibility" when you used the word "should" in conjunction with "those who can afford." If people are acting responsibly, they "shouldn't" need a mandate.

And, responsible people may not be able to afford health care insurance...in fact, fewer and fewer will be able to afford it as premiums rise.

If you restrict your definition of "responsible people" to the increasingly smaller number of people at the top of the economic pyramid, it makes it increasing difficult to be a "responsible person."

Romney's insurance mandate addressed those who can afford health insurance but choose not to get it knowing that no one gets turned away from Emergency Rooms in the US regardless of ability to pay. I know people who can afford jet ski's, cigarettes, cable TV, alcohol and tattoos, but they do without health insurance, by choice. People who can't afford health insurance are a different category.

You actually KNOW people with tattoos? Wow!

jackie,

I would find some new friends. They sound really irresponsible.

Voting for Obama in 2012 would be like voting for Obama in 2008...and we saw how that turned out!

You should change your name to say what? because you make no sense. Tell me how Romeny is like the former president? Other than being Republican.

I could say Obama is just like Bill Ayers and Rev Wright, or Van Jones..oh wait his just like those guys!

If your even asking that ..you have no idea what Roves position in all this is ?

Say what? lol

Has your TV been broken for the last three years? The Obamas have represented us well abroad and at the White House since Barack took office. Not only doesn't the President snort cocaine - he managed to quit smoking!

Leona: Michelle Obama was raised on the South side of Chicago in a one bedroom apartment, with a stay at home mom and a low paid hard working Dad, in close knit family that put an emphasis on education. It didn't hurt that Michelle was "gifted" and went on to attend Princeton AND Harvard and received a law degree.

They actually worked hard and were successful. Something you Repubs worship, so why the "hate"?

Mittens on the other hand, came from money and makes MORE by shutting down businesses and throwing people to the street!

Your good buddy Mitt is "unemployed", and HOW many houses do they own?

You don't begrudge your buddy for being wealthy, just the First Family??

Typical!

I don't demonize anyone for being wealthy. I don't like it when people pretend to NOT BE wealthy ( Michelle Obama) .

BTW, Romney is responsible for the creation of Staples and has created thousands of jobs. What has Obama done?

BFD LEONA!

You rip Michelle for shopping at Target, and would rip her worse if she was caught at Tiffany's!

You can't have it BOTH WAYS!

So glad Romney created Staples, how many OTHER businesses did he shut down and/or send out of the country???

Obama STOPPED the mass bleeding of job losses, and the economy IS growing stronger EVERY MONTH!

You just can't see past your hate!

Sad really!

Actually Mormon women can be priest. Not that someones faith should matter. Otherwise Obama's 20 years in the church of Rev Wright, a known black liberationists and anti-American would have mattered to those who voted for him.

hey Porter, I suppose you're a Democrat shill.

I can see the Democrat Party IS ALREADY DEMONIZING MORMONS because they know ROMNEY IS going to be very hard to beat.

Obama's 1 billion dollars has created a true smear campaign.

If you want to know how Mormon women are treated, ask Ann Romney. She looks pretty happy to me. Ann is married 40+ years and they appear to have a wonderful life with their children.

Leona,

I am glad you have one thing you will not be demonizing: Mormonism

congradulations.

Just to keep facts straight, DevDoc stated a falsehood.

An official declaration of the Church states, "every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple. Accordingly, all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color."
(Doctrine and Covenants, Official Declaration—2).

Leona didn't actually say anything except opinion.

Porter not so:

Various denominations within the Latter Day Saint movement have taken different paths on the subject of women and their role in the church and in society. Views range from the full equal status and ordination of women to the priesthood as practiced by the Community of Christ, to the Catholic-like patriarchal system practiced by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to the ultra-patriarchal plural marriage system practiced by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and other Mormon fundamentalist groups.

Porter are you actually going to deny that Obama attended Rev Jeremiah Wright's church were Black Liberation Theology is taught, and Anti-Americanism is rampid?

He conveniently dumped him as soon as he was found out, but you have to wonder why Obama went to his church as he claims himself for 20 years?

@Porter - I'm Mormon, proud of it. Your misrepresentations of LDS women are deplorable. There are many, many women in leadership positions. Your Bible certainly doesn't say anything about giving women the priesthood as most Christians believe Christ was the last priest anyway.

Mormon women are honored within the church and are very happy with their role as mothers, nurturers of children, and devoted volunteers to church and community.

RationalOne/Dev - please tell me where in the LDS church (Mormons) doctrines does it say a woman can hold the priesthood. It doesn't. Women are relegated to a sub-class, which is to serve the elders holding the priesthood. Could a woman ever be president of the Church? NO. Could a woman ever hold the title of bishop? NO. The highest church rank a woman can hold is president of the relief society (whose primary role is to provide food for social gatherings). Women will never be deacons, bishops, elders, quorum members, or church president.

RationalOne - The nice thing in this country is we have freedom of religion, so you can joyously belong to a religion that promotes degradation of women. It is your right and while I find its treatment of women deplorable, I would support your ability to worship that tenet.

Independent thought here. Who says that men having the priesthood makes them superior to women? That is an assumption many in society (past and present) believe. Perhaps a different consideration might be to determine what unique things men and women do that make each equally valuable. Biologically speaking, both are needed to propagate the species.

James ... On practical grounds, I agree with you. But I was posting about the way Mormons treat women within their church. Rational's defense is the "authorized" line these days. "Women are honored members of a team!"

Yeah, right.

They refer to them in a way that reminds you of a farmer talking about his prize pig. Women are supposed to be obedient and helpful ... and silent ... in the church. As Wikipedia diplomatically puts it, "Ecclesiastically, the church is firmly committed to patriarchy and gender role." Women who were scholars and otherwise upstanding members of the church, such as Maxine Hanks and Lavina Fielding Anderson, have been excommunicated for failing to shut up when told to.

As for DevDoc ... "The Community of Christ" is the former RLDS. "R" for "Reorganized". They changed their name a few years ago. They're the Mormons who stayed behind when Brigham and the boys went to Utah. They do have different dogmas they follow, but they're not what most people think of as "Mormon" and they're not the church that Mitt belongs to.

Ok, gotcha Porter Rockwell. Yeah, I sometimes only think practically in reference to my reply to RedDevPS. I think I understand your point. I posted a similar response a few threads down and have pasted a portion of that response below.

"I will reassert what I said above. That thought is based upon the assumption that having the priesthood makes one superior to those who do not. That may be a false assumption we as society have advanced over time. One could alternatively argue that the ability to bear a child makes one superior. If that assumption were true, then women are superior."

If the LDS think that men are superior because they hold the priesthood and the women do not, then I believe your assertion is correct. If, however, they think that men and women are mutually important, then perhaps the assertion is faulty.

Though I don't know the individuals you cite for being excommunicated, religious organizations are private and retain the right to hold standards of membership. Since I have no knowledge regarding the parameters of their excommunication, I have no basis from which to judge if it was warranted or not.

@RedDev & Porter - First, in order for us to even be having this argument you'd have accept that the priesthood is even real, because your understanding of it is certainly flawed. The LDS priesthood is the power to perform certain religious ordinances like baptism and bestowing the Gift of the Holy Ghost (as found in Acts 8:17-22). So, second, you will need to tell me why you think more than one person in a family needs to hold that power?

If you are falsely equating priesthood power with ecclesiastical leadership within the church, I maybe can see where you have a point. But I fail to see how that is degrading to women. My wife, nor any other woman I know in the church, feels degraded because they cannot be a bishop (or higher). It's not like being a CEO. Being a bishop is a difficult job that receives no pay or benefits (except spiritual).

But see, that's where women excel. Women already have the capacity and the love innately within them to serve others. It's us selfish men that need to use the leadership opportunities that the LDS church has to serve others. We need the priesthood to catch up with them. Your views that LDS women are not equal within the church are partially true. They are better than us, and we need to learn to be more like them.

Rational ...

First, the theological distinctions just go whizzing past me because none of these telestial-terrestial-celestial glories mean anything to me. I'm focused on what happens here on Earth. And here on Earth, the bishop sits in judgment of whether you have been "good enough" at least once a year and only a man can be a bishop. All of this handwringing about how "honored" women are in the church seems to me to be just window dressing. Johnnie gets to sit at the head of the class but Susie can have a gold star so she won't feel bad.

Bottom line, here on Earth, women in the Mormon church (the one in Salt Lake ... not any of the minority sects) have second class status.

That is just a bunch of BS. This friend of yours would have had to start having children at 15 to have 4 kids by 20. Mormon women can be priest in their religion. For someone who supposedly spent so much time with them you know little.

That is just a bunch of BS. Mormon women cannot be a priest. To be a priest, you have to be eligible for the priesthood, and women are NOT eligible for the priesthood. For someone who thinks they know a lot about Mormonism, you know little.

Devdoc is classifying minority sects as "Mormon". It's just a confusing diversion because nobody else thinks of them as being "the" Mormon church. I quoted the Doctrine & Covenants of the Salt Lake church in an earlier post and that settles it.

If government were to be run by a business, the constitution would read "We the Corporation..." vs. "We the People...". Business makes profits and are typically beholden to either shareholders or the owner. Government should not be in the business of churning profits. As this great article points out, ""Running government like a business" is one of those zombie Republican lines".

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/04/17/967855/-Running-government-like-a-business

Since when has the government actually been run by the people? It is supposed to be that way, but it sure falls short of doing so. And how many people raised in an American home remain whatever their party their

famiy were instead of thinking the other party might be better. Since I was big enough to understand paries, I have seen this. That is the reason I am against being either a hardheaded democrat or a stubborn republican. I try to find out which man or woman is best for our country and that is how I vote. Both parties have bad and good, and that is a fact. And we have to know more about those we vote for. We are in a mess and I see no way of it getting better, but I will say this < it won't with Obama as he is only interested in Obama. He calls the military whiners, but now he needs their vote, he sucks up to them. And with him we will keep going down. I say it's time to put terms on all offices.

Romney isn't a businessman ... he's a banker. There's a difference. Business creates wealth. Bankers just shuffle it around and keep as much as they can for themselves.

So are you jealous? The man has made money for his hard work. I don't begrudge anyone for making a buck. What America needs is a man among men, and leader among leaders. I don't think an average Joe or Barry can do the job.

They are equal in every respect with the men in the church.

Wrong .. equal would mean they could hold the priesthood, which they cannot.

and have families if they so choose. It's all about free agency.

Partially wrong again .. yes, they have free agency to avoid marriage and family, but the penance for making that choice is that they forgo the upper tiers of heaven.

Ind here - Did a little reading about the upper tier RedDevPS comment. In the LDS Doctrine and Covenants section 132 it states that a couple needs to be married in their Temple to go to an upper tier heaven. To me, that means men and women are treated equal. Both have the same expectation.

As for the priesthood comment, I will reassert what I said above. That thought is based upon the assumption that having the priesthood makes one superior to those who do not. That may be a false assumption we as society have advanced over time. One could alternatively argue that the ability to bear a child makes one superior. If that assumption were true, then women are superior.

You are suggesting Michelle Obama isn't a REAL first lady? Why such disrespect for our First Lady of the United States?

I agree with RedDevPS - Michelle Obama appears (from my limited vantage point) of representing the US well, domestically and abroad. Though one may not approve of the direction her husband has taken on some political issues, it does not diminish what she has contributed.

I agree,

Moochelle Antoinette has shown us how to take a real Mega vacation. No matter what it costs, she is out to suck up all the perks possible in her remaining year. All those attendants she has, waiting on her hand and foot, should make her finally proud to be an American.

No Joe (my eyes roll).

Those of us who know politics and are educated know this is the junior varsity team in Iowa. Yawns.

Unlike some GOP/TP that have been showing their desperation since 2008 by insinuating the current US President Obama isn't a REAL president.