Beat me to the punch on that one, Steeler Fan.

"Family values" are very important to this liberal too, especially as I'm watching my brother and sister-in-law go through the early stages of a divorce with a 10-year-old child involved. I'll grant Ann Romney that her husband has it all over Newt Gingrich in that category, but Barack Obama leaves them both in the dust.

SF, ditto what you and JoAnne said about President Obama.

Steeler - of course the reps don't share your core beliefs.

That's why you are a dem, and they are not.

But certainly Mitt has 'fidelity to family' which is the issue at hand.

Certainly there are a wide array of character issues that could be discussed. Like with Clinton and Bush it was drug use. That no longer seems to be a big thing anymore.

Mitt Romney is a Big Fat Liar, by Andrew Sullivan

One of the advantages of having put your soul on eBay is that it frees you up. You can say anything to anyone, and feel no consequences. You can go from promising to be more pro-gay than Ted Kennedy to backing an amendment to the Constitution permanently putting gays into second class status. You can go from calling yourself "progressive" to "the most conservative candidate in this race." And you also can repeat in increasingly crude terms the notion that this president is some kind of anti-American, far-left ideologue determined to turn 21st Century America into Eastern Europe c. 1978 ... and pretend that this is the actual debate we are having and that this is the universe we are living in. Given the alternative galaxies proferred by Roger Ailes, any other narrative might prove confusing for the true believers, I suppose. But if you want to read a long list of the whoppers that Romney has been touting, check out Sargent.

This is a lie:

Roosevelt believed that government should level the playing field to create equal opportunities. President Obama believes that government should create equal outcomes.

I hereby challenge Romney to cite a single case or action in which president Obama has said he believes that government should enforce equal outcomes in the workplace or the economy or anywhere else. His signature policy in education is called "Race To The Top", for Pete's sake. He chose to extend the Bush tax cuts. He has actually cut Medicare and taxes on a majority of Americans. The idea that at a time when the debt is soaring the wealthy might be asked to contribute their fair share to balancing the buget is not Marxist. It's something the most right-wing economic government in the West, Britain's Conservative Party, has insisted upon.

One other little contrast to reveal the extent of Romney's deception. Here's a recent debate riff:

This is a president who fundamentally believes that the next century is the post-American century. Perhaps it will be the Chinese century. He is wrong.

Again, I hereby demand from the Romney campaign direct evidence that the president has ever said or done something that can back up this ludicrous assertion of backing a foreign country over one's own. It's a lie. And, by the way, here is the president in this year's State of the Union:

You see, Washington has been telling us to wait for decades, even as the problems have grown worse. Meanwhile, China is not waiting to revamp its economy. Germany is not waiting. India is not waiting. These nations -- they're not standing still. These nations aren't playing for second place. They're putting more emphasis on math and science. They're rebuilding their infrastructure. They're making serious investments in clean energy because they want those jobs. Well, I do not accept second place for the United States of America.

Yes Steeler Fan -- The candidate who has proved good "character" (and temperament, and intelligence, and leadership, etc.) is our president. Obama/Biden - 2012!

And to nisl on a wide array of character issues, excellent post as well.

Steeler Fan,

I so agree with you regarding character. Obama's is far superior to any of the Republican Presidential nominees. Sorry my 49ers beat you Monday night. . . . NOT! Happy Holidays! . .:)

Alright guys, here is your token conservative post. I'll put Dr Paul's character up against Obama's any day.

Obama vs Paul, character would not be an election issue.

Cant wait till Saturday when the 9ers have to come north to meet the hawk's

Depends, Egilman, can we hold his son Rand to him or not? Sorry, but I had to say that. If we are talking family values, I can give you Dr. Paul. But on other issues concerning his views, we would have to have a discussion about that.

And don't take the 49er's for granted. They be looking pretty darn good.

Egilman,

You're on! Can't wait! Wanna bet $10,000? Oh wait! I'm not rich! It'll have to be a "I rule, you drule" post" OK?

Egilman - I have no issue with Paul's character. Sure, there is some rumbling about Paul's feelings towards non-whites, but I'll give Paul the benefit of the doubt and say there is nothing to them.

But if Paul wins the nomination character wouldn't NEED to be an issue.

You are kidding yourself if you think Paul can win the nomination for the Republican Party. The Republican establishment would no more allow Ron Paul a win then they would allow Newt Gingrich a win. It. Will. Never. Happen.

If you truly believe in Ron Paul, and most of his supporters truly, deeply, do believe in him, you would be better served trying to get Ron Paul a third party nomination. This is the one election season when a GOOD libertarian might stand a chance.

I would like to thank Mrs. Romney for reminding us of the fine character traits that our president has displayed throughout his administration.

As for Mr. Paul, his views on those not of waspy heritage are deeply disturbing. That makes the cut right there for me without studying his platform in any detail.

@nisl

Can you clear this up for me?

Does Barack Obama support the Bush tax rates? Simple question.

You post an article by a blogger in which he gives credit to Obama for extending the Bush tax rates

He chose to extend the Bush tax cuts. He has actually cut Medicare and taxes on a majority of Americans. The idea that at a time when the debt is soaring the wealthy might be asked to contribute their fair share to balancing the buget is not Marxist. It's something the most right-wing economic government in the West, Britain's Conservative Party, has insisted upon.

yet any time I bring up this fact I am told that Obama was forced to extend the Bush tax cuts because it was the only way to extend unemployment benefits.

So which is it? Is he taking credit for his decision, and is therefore responsible for the increase in the deficit attributable to the cuts, or was he forced into the decision, and the bloggers argument is invalid?

@Joanne

I'll grant Ann Romney that her husband has it all over Newt Gingrich in that category, but Barack Obama leaves them both in the dust.

How does Barack Obama leave Romney in the dust over fidelity and family values?

If Michele Obama did an ad for her husband, she'd talk about what he could do for the country, not what he's done for her.

Have you noticed that about the Republicans? They never talk about the voters, it's all about them.

If you recall Alan, and your memory seems to need refreshment frequently, the tax cuts were extended when the House threatened to cut off unemployment payments during a critical point in the recovery. Our president is a compassionate progressive, rather than a heartless regressive, which collectively describes the GOP to a "T."

@Amy

You noticed that, too?

And I didn't get the chance to wish the very Happiest of Holidays to you and all of yours.

Your right SF, Obama does stay true to his character as a corrupt democratic community organizing thug from Chicago.

If you recall Alan, and your memory seems to need refreshment frequently, the tax cuts were extended when the House threatened to cut off unemployment payments during a critical point in the recovery. Our president is a compassionate progressive, rather than a heartless regressive, which collectively describes the GOP to a "T."

So why is a blogger writing an article in which he gives Obama credit for extending the tax cuts? Is the bloggers point invalid? Also, if you actually read my post you would have seen the part where I refer to unemployment benefits.

I am told that Obama was forced to extend the Bush tax cuts because it was the only way to extend unemployment benefits.

And thank you, my memory enjoys frequent refreshment, or did you really mean refreshing? If I actually mention the unemployment benefits why would you think my memory needs refreshments?

Or are you just illiterate?

Alan - Well, first off, Andrew Sullivan is not the President. Sullivan likes to think of himself as a conservative, so I can see why HE might think of the Bush Tax Cut extension is some sort of accomplishment and not a ransom.

Obama did NOT want to extend ALL of the Bush tax cuts, just those on people making under 250K. He had to extend them all because the Republicans held UI hostage.

So, in answer to your question, if this is a zero sum game where the two possible outcomes are 1) Andrew is not correct 2) Obama is responsible for the cuts and the increase in the debt, I would go with 1. But really 1 and 2 are both correct.

It doesn't matter why Obama extended the Bush tax cuts, he signed the bill and is therefore responsible for the additional debt. Was he forced into it? Yes, but that is largely irrelevant.

Andrew is not correct as well in that extending the Bush Tax Cuts has nothing to do with Obama demanding equal outcomes (something Obama has never done.) In all honesty, I don't know why Andrew put that in there, it was a weak spot in his argument. I guess Andrew's point was that saying Obama is demanding equal outcomes is a fancy way of calling Obama a socialist, and that no socialist would ever extend the Bush tax cuts or institute Race to the Top.

If Michele Obama did an ad for her husband, she'd talk about what he could do for the country, not what he's done for her.

As in "for the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country" ?

Ana---you did not show my Steelers much hospitality, for sure. I'd like to see a match up with both teams healthy---maybe in the Super Bowl?!

To me an important element of character which Romney seems to lack is a fundamental belief in certain core values and principals.

You know, the party of family values. The party that has harped for years that character counts sure does try to find ways to turn the story away from them when confronted with good, decent family man like President Obama.

I agree, Obama is a real character.

Sullivan likes to think of himself as a conservative,

You lost me here. It's like the frequently quoted misconception that Mark Zandi is a conservative economist. Sullivan has been a supporter of Obama since the Democratic primaries in 2007.

Anyhoo, looks like you think Sullivan's argument is invalid and I agree with that. It's very weak.

And right there Alan, is your answer to the question in Amy's post

" How does Barack Obama leave Romney in the dust over fidelity and family values?"

Have you noticed that about the Republicans? They never talk about the voters, it's all about them.

President Obama has a core, Willard Romney does not. Our President truly cares about the citizens and how his decisions impact our lives......the 99%.

Merry Christmas Gingerbread Mamma. Hope your day is going smashingly.

Alan - Actually Andrew's point is that Mitt Romney is a Big Fat Liar, and he lays out several examples of Romney fibbing. Race to the Top and the extension of the Bush Tax cuts are added to the conversation to show that Obama is not the socialist Romney is lying and saying Obama is.

As to Sullivan's political stance I'd just say there are many conservatives that are disgusted with the Republican Party. The "Starve the Beast" tactic the GOP has been pursuing for the last couple of decades has done what its proponents wanted it to do: it has dramatically underfunded our government and caused our debt to balloon.

Amy - shouldn't that be what he has done for this country?

Steeler - is Obama's change on debt and leadership a 'core' issue?

Would you prefer if Obama changed his position on gay marriage and equality?

Some changes on core issues are good. Some are bad.

I wish Obama had maintained his position on not raising the debt ceiling, and would change his position on gay marriage.

nisl - I bet Sullivan would too, but he is not a conservative by any means.

Good afternoon Spanky. Hope your holiday season is a happy one.

Do you not think, though, in the matter of President Obama's personal character (that of a family man and good husband), there should not be any debate. Especially by the GOP considering their history of "family values"?

GM - if that is true, that Obama cares so much about the 99%, how come he surrounds himself with 1%-ers?

Then again, I'm sure the North Koreans felt that their Dear Leader had their best interests at heart.

Nope, the powerful tend to hang out with the rich and powerful.

Alright AnaB...

Your on! (bot I don't think either of us would look good druleing... how bout we make is Rule or d-Rule how bout that!)

Phine,

Them 9ers have been playin good ball, but the hawks have been the hottest team the last five weeks or so and the best run team with one of the best defenses...don't count them out either, the networks have moved it to the last game Saturday... but I could be wrong on that one.

So, Spanky, are you comparing the President of the United States of America to the North Korean leader? Am I reading you correctly?

Phinep - I think this is another silly article to fill space.

Hard to say what Obama's character is. It's great that he has had a long and successful marriage, but that does not help us or him with the economy, or other issues.

Like the disasters that are Europe and Egypt.

Family values means different things to different people. That the pres has never been divorced is of little import. That we blow through $4 billion per day in new debt is.

nisl,

This is probably over your head, but a lie is an intentional misrepresentation of a known fact in an effort to deceive. When Romney says ....

President Obama believes that government should create equal outcomes.

Is he offering that as fact, or is that just Romney's opinion of Obama?

Too confusing? Try this .... when Obama said ....

"And it's not surprising then that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations,"

Is that a statement of a known fact, or is it just an ignorant, bigoted remark by a petulant punk of a president?

And if it is statement of fact .... I "hereby challenge" Obama to cite, to present scientific evidence, irrefutable evidence that this is in FACT true.

Otherwise I'm sure you will agree that in addition to Obama being a petulant punk, he is a liar.

Don't worry .... the liar part is well documented.

For example:

In his latest speech where he said .....

"the wealthiest are paying the lowest taxes in over half a century."

.... Is a lie.

IRS data shows the wealthiest 1% paid almost 40% of federal income taxes in 2009 – DOUBLE THE 18% PAID IN 1980.

The petulant punk part?

Ahh .... just an opinion.

No phinep - I am comparing GingerBread M's love of her leader to the love the North Koreans had for theirs.

At this point Obama, as with all big wig politicians leads a very different life than a so called 99%-er. After he is out of office he will become even more wealthy.

Nisl,

Yep the Republican party hacks are crappin bricks with what is happening in Iowa and looks to be happening in New Hampshire... I figure if he can gain a strong second in NH poll at least a third in SC and a strong second in FL going into Nevada which is his territory. (he is already picked to win Nevada)

They just might have to swallow their own bile like they did back in '80 with Reagan, they cannot afford to screw the pooch with this one. Dr Paul runs as a third, it's Obama's election to lose.

And the republican party hacks KNOW it.

Egilman,

I will be watching that game!

Yo Spanky curious how does gay marriage effects your life, How does their life intrude on yours, or how does your life intrude on theirs. Also what does Obama have to do with Egypt or Europe since he is not the president of those countries. If you really think the North Koreans loved their leader you are really out of touch. When you fear for you life you do exactly as you are told to do like cry, faint, over their dead leader. You really are not on your game today.

By the way you and your family have a merry and safe holiday season.

I just heard a previous interview with President Obama today while driving down the road, and in this interview, Obama was asked to rate himself on where he stands in his Presidency, as opposed to other presidents.

He rates himself better than all with the exception of Roosevelt, Lincoln and Johnson. Talk about ego!

Most every post above mine calls him on of the best too. Now what foreign policy moves makes him superior to other presidents? What domestic policies do the same?

Please educate me, for I only see unemployment up above levels most people find unexceptable. Gas prices are rising along with food costs. Debt is larger than ever and taxes are continually asked for by the Democratic Party while spending on entitlements increase. Oh, and health costs are growing. Then there is the housing market where foreclosures are growing with another bubble to occur in 2012. And our legislators have yet to pass a budget for government.

So, where are the benefits from this Great Divider

Winemaker,

I'm gonna leave that one alone until the actual election....(I will admit it is a bit of a stretch though)

The article is legitimate. It just doesn't play well for Teapublicans. From ethics violations to Jack Abramoff to Scooter Libby to the long list of sex scandals to Alberto Gonzales, and you name it, integrity (including inability to be truthful as already pointed out) is NOT a GOP/TP strength.

Amy B. Portland, ME -- The conservative wife is a religious wife who is subservientto her husband, even in the case of Marcus Bachmann as First Lady. None are in the 21st Century, including Dr. Paul (sorry Egilman).

Tis the Season -- I wonder when the punk decided to be heterosexual. Was it on his 9th birthday, or maybe his 16th, perhaps his 21st? Seriously though, the red herring about genetics comes late, long after studies on hormones, for example variables like the mother being under stress during pregnancy may be a factor.

Anywho, has anyone else noticed that the punk always gets three votes from himself and his two other log-ins? Hmm, an update on Scott Walker's recall...signing out for a bit...

TrueP.

You don't have to apologise to me sir, as far as I am concerned you are absolutely entitled to your opinion concerning Dr Paul, or any other opinions you may have. I admire the fact that you do not espouse your opinions as fact, unlike some others around here both Lib. and Con. I do appreciate that very much. Thank you

I sincerely hope that You and yours have a very Merry Christmas...

Character means EVERYTHING. Republicans obviously have no honor within them.

nisl -- The "Starve the Beast" tactic the GOP has been pursuing for the last couple of decades has done what its proponents wanted it to do: it has dramatically underfunded our government and caused our debt to balloon.

May I add ... therefore creating a manufactured crisis by which they justify chipping away at all the programs they don't like, in particular the safety nets for the least among us, though programs like Social Security actually work really well and are therefore very popular, and allow people to live in dignity instead of poverty or having to work until they die.

Egilman -

I and many others who are not conservative like many things about Dr. Paul (even some about Rand, for example his position on terrorism and being held without due process). I must confess that of all the GOP/TP candidates, I'd much rather see Ron Paul in the White House -- with the caveat that other checks and balances (branches of government, etc.) contain the Executive, and also because the other GOP/TP candidates completely lack integrity in comparison to Paul to such an extent that he is preferred--plus he is nice! BTW, the latest poll shows Paul as the front runner in Iowa.

Likewise I appreciate your open mind, thoughtful posts, and civility, and hope you will continue to contribute to FR. I also sincerely wish a Merry Christmas and prosperous New Year to you and your family.

I don't know, Ames.....in the suit and tie picture after the matching sweaters, I thought he looked eeerily like a younger Rick Santorum. Guess it's that whole chameleon thing he's got going......

I caught a comment the other day that disputed Romney's description of the impoverished life he led while in France. It was by someone who had contacted the Mormon group which housed them when in France. Turns out he had his own bath, food was cooked by chefs and it was a nice place to be, the equivalent of college dorms if not better.

Gee, Amy, in what branch of the service did Obama serve?

nojo, which branch did Mittens serve in? Or Newt'rs?

And I still wish you a Merry Christmas.

President Obama has served as Commander-in-Chief for the last three years. Romney has sat around counting his money.

Amy,

Have to disagree with you on what Willard has been up to. He has been running non-stop for 6 years for the presidency. He has been counting donors money.

Phine, you have little leeway left with NoJo before I show her what shock and awe is. I can write ugly as well as I write pretty.

ideology,

My dear, the floor is all yours. And, if you please, use that rapier wit of yours on some of the others. Been a little rocky out here today. The gentle folk on the otherside of the aisle do not seem to feel the spirit of the season.

Jody---I saw a picture of where Romney lived in France---it looked very posh to me.

Amy---don't be too hard on Romney---he has worked very hard for the past six years running for president and supervising the renovations of his beachfront property.

Steeler Fan,

Oooo. Darn it. Forgot about the upgrades to the "little" beach house.

Spent the day with with lawyers phine, I can only imagine what your day was like.

ideology,

I think your day was worse. But, I am glad to see you now. Your wit and insight was much missed.

@ Phine and Steeler I see our being nice didn't last for even a day or perhaps it only applied to those of the same political bent. Sad.

Now now ladies and gents, I've played nice all day.....You cant blame it On me, OH I do have a bent, I just won't admit which one, (NO I'm not newt in disguise)

Merry Christmas to all!!!

Phine @ 2.4

In answer to your question on candidate military service....

Gingrich received a draft deferment during the Vietnam War owing to the fact that he was studying at the time in Tulane University and he had children. In addition, he was also impaired with short-sightedness and had flat feet (pes planus).

Ron Paul believes that military service helps the country and is personally rewarding.
He served as a USAF flight surgeon in the 60’s.
Following his Air Force service, Paul enlisted in the Air National Guard from 1965 to 1968.

Perry joined the USAF in 1972 and served with distinction for five years. He was discharged in 1977 with the rank of Captain. While in the Air Force, Perry was stationed at Dyess Air Force Base, Texas, Germany and Saudi Arabia. He was assigned to fly the C-130, a military transport aircraft, and flew to various locations around the world, including Europe, South America and Africa.

Mitt Romney has never served in the military.
Before joining college, Romney had received a deferment from the draft as a Mormon 'minister of religion' for the duration of his missionary work in France, which lasted two and a half years. At the time, there was an agreement of sorts between the church and the Selective Service allowing exemptions from the draft for missionaries. Before and after his missionary deferment, Romney also received nearly three years of deferments for his academic studies. In April 1965, Romney registered with the Selective Service but was not considered readily available for military service until December 1970. When he became eligible for military service in 1970, he drew a high number in the annual draft lottery and at that time no one drawing higher than 195 was drafted.

The rest don't really matter....

Jody, Romney has no Character? Really?

JFK2112

Actually, Romney seems to suffer more from a lack of personality. Unless questioned. Then he get testy.

talk about flip-flops - but of course with Obama it is called evolving

I have just read that Barack Obama has sent a letter of congratulations to a gay couple that was just married (I believe in Brooklyn) and also mentioned in the letter that his views about the subject were "evolving".

Please don't anyone try to tell me that he is not in the campaign mode. Talk about pandering

Well, according to Ann Romney, character means not cheating on your wife. I guess that means President Obama has character, right?

Paymyfee, get your money back your in the wrong line. When they said stand in line for a brain you thought the said rain and got out of line.

Want to go back to the good old days of Bush holding hands and kissing Arab leaders do you paidmyfee?

Can you prove Obarry does not cheat on his wife?

All you can do is call people names for pointing out the flaws in your messiah, you have to facts to disprove anything.

You can cry and complain about Romney costing workers jobs, but when your messiah took over Chrysler he fired thousands and took dealerships away from anyone who supported republican candidates. When messiah took over GM, he cheated millions of shareholders out of billions of dollars and gave the company to the unions. They walked away on tens of billions in borrowed government money.

Chacacter,,,,,,,you guy lacks?

and all you can do is call people names,,,,,,,,,,,,,that's just sad.

PMF. are you trying to say the President personally fired thousand and personally determined which dealerships to close and are you saying that GM shareholder were cheated out of billions of dollars, really, I think I will stand by my earlier statement. If the Government had not loaned billions of dollars to these companies neither would exist today. So everyone at Chrysler would have been fired and every shareholder would have lost everything. Also do not forget that Chrysler was purchased by Fiat and Chrysler determined which dealerships would close not the government. So back in line and this time stay in the right one.

Can you prove Obarry does not cheat on his wife? ...

No, I cannot prove a negative, but you are doing rather well in proving that you are an inept moron ... well done, Santa will deliver your dunce cap via a Chrysler packed full of pissed off auto-workers.

Exactly baldeagle.

You Know, as much as I would like to argue that with you Baldeagle, I can't, in my judgement you hit the nail on the head. Until the republicans admit what they are, (lying azzed politicians) they will always be hypocrites.

Well, Newt'rs is a character. One out of Charles Dickens novel. And not the good guy character.

Nobody's perfect, but, can you imagine telling your son or daughter that Blingrich is a person to be like when they grow up??? I can imagine doing that with Obama and maybe even Romney (though I don't agree with many of his positions)...

Not a democrat or a republican, but thanks, UAW. You just explained the brinksmanship and dysfuctionality of Congress this year. I was wondering if it had anything to do with that "make him a one-term president." Now I know. And I thought they were just inept.

yeah he omits God in his prayers and speeches and says happy holidays

instead of merry christmas! anti God anti American! that right there

should make people vote him out! the liberal left wing have no morals!

look at the losers in congress all have corruption, sex, lies, tax cheats.

LOL, thanks Nathan.

Makes me wonder IF he is schizophrenic...

i think your left wing loonie name says it all!

Yes! these liberals are left wing loonies who just make stuff up but refuse to answer

of believe the truth! what about Obombo's background with Ayers, Wright? what

about Pelosi, Reid, Wrangle, Waters, Weiner, Corzine, Emmanuel, the green czar

guy who left the whitehouse after his racist comments! these are the people OBOMBO

likes! all left wing liberal progressives! give me a break you will find no anti-american

anti-capitalist anti-freedom anti-God republicans or conservatives! i'll take that anyday!