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Who has the upper hand in the payroll tax fight - and what happens politically if it's not extended? Thanks to Yellowdog Mark D for the question!
Video edited by NBC's Matt Loffman
P.S. - look for several more Boiler Rooms in the next few days and weeks answering your questions.
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The Republicans look really, really bad, denying middleclass workers a tax cut when they went to the mat to protect tax cuts for the uber wealthy.
Forget it, Amy. Almost everybody knows that it is the Senate Democrats who tried to kick the can down the road- a two month extension? Please.
Far more important is this story
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2011/dec/20/lie-year-democrats-claims-republicans-voted-end-me/
The Lie of the Year award goes to the Democrats!
It was only a few months ago that Republicans were lining up to tell us that tax cuts don't need to be paid for. Apparently that has changed.
I'd bet the GOP will revert to its, "Tax cuts don't have to be paid for," stance sometime in the fourth quarter of 2012. Why? Because then it will be time to extend the Bush tax cuts and there is no way Congress will be able to find offsets large enough to pay for the Bush tax cuts.
Will the media call them on it? Judging from the amount of equivocation from Domenico and Mark in the video above (sorry guys) I'm guessing not. These days the media care far more about being "Fair and Balanced" then they do telling the truth.
The Democrats look really, really bad, providing middle class workers a tax cut for only 2 months instead of a year in order to support Obama's uber wealthy corporate masters on Wall Street who are more than happy to pay $35,800 for a plate of peas to protect their tax cuts.
Rocco - Now now, you shouldn't be making things up. Besides, this will all work itself out before the end of the year.
Do you want to know why I'm so confident they will work this out? Because Boehner has already named eight Republicans to work on negotiations. I'm sure the eight Republicans Boehner names are all super commited to extending the payroll tax cut like you seem to think is a good idea.
What is that? Boehner named who? They said what?
Per Steve Bennen:
To that end, Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) said this afternoon he’s chosen eight House Republicans to work on negotiations — which probably won’t occur — with the Senate. The DCCC noted that most of them have already announced their opposition to extending the payroll tax cut at all.
The DCCC actually missed one: Rep. Tom Reed (R-N.Y.) was also named to the conference committee, and just two weeks ago, he falsely claimed the payroll tax break is a “threat to Social Security.”
Why would the House GOP leadership choose conferees to work on the details of a tax cut who already oppose that tax cut? They wouldn’t unless the point was to set up the committee to fail.
Sorry nisl, I should have said $35,800 for a plate of "to be detemined"
I'd prefer both sides just forget about the payroll cut. I'd much rather have a solid,fully funded social security program around when I retire. That's more important to me than a measley 25 bucks a week. And while we're at, let ALL the bush tax cuts die the death they truly deserve. Stop saying keep it for this group or that group, let'em all pass on.
Chucky - Actually, I agree with you, let them all pass.
The timing is the thing. I'd rather they expire at the end of 2012, or maybe sometime during 2013 depending on economic conditions.
Hey, great minds and all that, nisl.
According to the Huff and Puff Post (Your bible) that 4 million taxpayer funded o'bam-bam Hawaii vacation is shaping up pretty well.
We're off to St. John. What about you, libbies?
Hey, yellowdog! Good question!
The lie of the year goes to the Democrats, no jo? Nope, pretty sure that honor is solely owned by YOU!
Stop with the fallacious two month argument. Everyone knows the two-month extension is the only option now thanks to Teapublican poison pills, attaching pipelines though they knew it would be vetoed, and playing their usual obstructionist political games until the clock ran out.
Also, this is about more than extending the payroll tax cut, it is also about unemployment that remains high, and Medicare payments to doctors. Personally I would prefer a straight cut in taxes for the working class, and a straight extension of UE until unemployment rates drop. Medicare payments to doctors, not so much. Doctors are not suffering right now in comparison and are the ones who need to get off the government teat and find ways to lower the cost of health care.
But the majority of Americans want this extension, and would prefer this was funded with the surtax on the rich, and not passed in conjunction with the pipeline. Unfortunately, the Teapublicans would never allow anything so reasonable.
Approval of congress just dropped from 13% to 11%, while approval of the president is going up. Man, these Teapublicans are not only hard-hearted, hypocritical, lying idiots, they are a gift to Democrats. The GOP/TP are going to lose The Fight for Fairness.
I'm okay giving up my tax breakif grover lets the rich folks get rid of theirs. That aint happening until the whole bush tax fiasco is allowed to expire, and nothing is more important to this country's welfare than allowing just that.
Man, the GOP drone on here are really reaching. It's a good thing that most of America can make up their own minds and don't allow Fox "news" and AM radio to form opinions for them. The 2 month extension passed with overwhelming bipartisan support. How can you blame the democrats when senate republicans voted for the 2 month expension as well?
Hey girl, out of that $1T desired, how much pork is in a bill and why? Didn't Obama outlaw pork from these packages?
Hint, both the Republican and Democrats both have 115 pieces of pork: 40 on the Republican side with the balance on the Dems.
Shouldn't all of these pork packages be removed? Didn't Obama promise this would happen?
Look at the polls. Approval of Republicans is going down while approval of the president is going up. These polls include conservatives, who don't like anyone messing with their Medicare, or Big Government drug testing for unemployment benefits, and who can see that this crazy-arse obstructionism is hurting the GOP brand.
Understand this one thing about drug testing. An unpopular governor in Florida, Rick Scott, tried this with Medicaid. Only 2% tested for drugs, way below the national average of 5%. And guess what? The tax payers have to pay for the drug tests when folks pass. Talk about big government!
Regardless, unemployment insurance is something we pay for via smaller paychecks so that employers can pay premiums. It is a safety net intended for anyone and everyone who is unfortunate enough to lose their job due to no fault of their own. Do YOU want this safety net for YOU to have the requirement that YOU have to take a drug test? Like the unemployed aren't dejected and humiliated enough!
But the bottom line is this:
The two-month extension was passed with 89 votes in the Senate, 39 of which were Republicans. There hasn't been a bipartisan vote of 89 on anything in a long time -- 39 out of 100 IS bipartisan (not 10 out of 435 in the House -- Ha!). And since Boehner stacked his picks for a conference with 5 out of 8 being against the tax cut in any form, and is a cover-up anyway, the Dems are refusing to participate at all. Good for the Dems, they are rejecting this @#$%! gimmick and the Senate is demanding that the House abide by the majority.
The Tea Party minority in the House has pushed the envelope one too many times with yet another attempt at hostage-taking to get a long list of things they want. Well too bad because The People are spitting angry, and they are angry at the Tea Party in particular. B-bye Teabaggers...
Neither side has the upper hand, all they are doing is playing politics and to hell with the American people. I have seen nothing that says the Senate gets whatever they want and it appears they are refusing to negotiate with the House. Some on the left claim the House leadership agreed to go along with the Senate but I have seen nothing where that was proven. To my knowledge there has not been a conference between the Senate and the House committees.
The Senate is the biggest stumbling block in the federal government, especially with Harry Reid at their leader.
What are you talking about? The House Republicans are once again gambling with our economy. What will happen if middleclass workers suddenly have less money in their paycheck? our economy is too fragile for these hijinks. Its the House, not the senate that's rolling the dice once again.
Americans haven't forgotten the debt ceiling fiasco. Republicans are insane doing this again.
PS Congratulations to Yellow Dog, great question.
The Senate is the biggest stumbling block in the federal government, especially with Harry Reid at their leader.
and that's why it passed with 89 votes?... gimme a break!
Amy, There is no proof that the payroll tax reduction has done anything to help the economy. Can you provide some concrete evidence to back that up? If the democrats are so concerned about middle class Americans then why did they only kick the can down the road, why not a one year extension paid for by cuts in other areas? The small amount money in each persons paycheck does little if anything to spur the economy or lower the unemployment rate.
What about the people who are retired or have jobs that do not pay into social security, there is no extra money going into their pockets, so I guess they don't count or spend money according to the left. Even if the House approved the two month extension it would only delay the fight again in a month of two, so lets get it done now for the one year the president wanted, or lets just forget it and let the payroll tax reduction expire as called for last year.
sfcret,
No, but can you prove that the payroll tax reduction didn't help the economy? Of course you can't. But the assumption is that whenever people have more money in their pockets they will spend or save it. In many cases people have spent it because all kinds of items have become more expensive since the payroll tax reduction went into effect--gas, food, heating oil. Why don't you use your freakin' head for once instead of knee-jerking all around the room?
On second thought, don't answer that. I can't stand any more stupidity this evening.
By your standard, show me some concrete evidence that the Bush Tax Cuts ever did anything for the economy. We've had them all throughout this recession which started in 2008 so what use have they been?
Jack, You are the one that is not using your head, just like the rest of the liberals that think the government owes them everything. The items you talk about, gas, food, heating oil, are not going to get cheaper in two or three months, will probably increase again, so what are the people going to do when the payroll tax reduction goes back up? It will hurt a hell of a lot more when the payroll tax is increased. BTW, why do you liberals continue to say if the payroll tax reduction is allowed to expire, as originally intended, is would be tax increase, when you constantly said that letting the Bush tax cuts expire would not be considered a tax increase. Get your head out of Obama's rear end and think for yourself.
Da Noid, I never said the Bush tax cuts helped the economy. I was not for the Bush tax cuts and I have said that they should be allowed to expire as intended when passed 10 yrs ago. I favored letting the Bush tax cuts expire last year, it was Obama that extended them for two years, after promising to veto them. Further I am for a complete revision of our tax codes and stopping all subsidies, loopholes and other incentives for corporations. I also, along with revising the tax codes, want to see government spending cut by eliminating many federal programs, fraud and waste. Government is to big and the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, a good example is the GAO report from March 2011.
sfcret,
I agree with you, after they revise our tax codes they need to cut government waste/spending.
Did you see Oklahoma Sen. Tom Coburn newly released 2011, 6.5 Billion "Wastebook"? Very interesting and not in a good way.
The BIG, BIG stumbling block is in the House and its called; "TEA PARTY". Why dont the Tea Party, live up to its "namesakes"; grab their "axes" and "AX THE TAX CODE"?.? The "Code" accounts for $1.1TRILLION in "breaks", exemptions and "loopholes"; Plus allows 45% of taxpayers to pay NOTHING!.! Go, There is some GOOD "cutting" to be done. THERE IS YOUR "DEFICIT"....
Mitch McConnell thought he had it in the bag ...with high fives. Can't imagine that he hadn't been talking to Boner about it.
The Red network will support Team Red
The Blue network will support Team Blue
The rest of the MSM will pick a side, run with their selected narrative and the electorate will follow...
dangerfield, you need to flesh out your cynicism. I am a fan of good cynics ... it's the Greek in me.
you can't be cynical enough...
I believe that H.L. Mencken was a Wide-Eyed Optimist...
One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors. -Plato
Ah, men who study the humanities. You know, of course, that the conservatives would not approve.
@ phine ... and why not? It is not womanities after all. God is a man, a man told me so.
ideology
SHE is not going to be happy that you think that! :)
And in conclusion, as befits the topic of this site...
H. L. Mencken
phine
the prudish are easily seduced by the naughty ... she has no chance but to bend over to my rapacious quill,
Gotta love Mencken. Somehow, over the years I had forgotten him. I will have to re investigate his writings again. Thanks, dangerfield.
ideology,
SHE might not be seduced by your naughtiness. Better hang on to the quill for a bit!
House doesn't like a two month deal? Fine--pass the Senate deal for a year and go into conference with that.
As long as it doesn't effect the upper 1%, the GOP could care less. Pass it or not, no skin off their noses.
The wealthy figured out a long time ago how to make a buck from socialism and taxes ... ah money, the gift you can keep giving to yourself.
I like the gift of money. So do the folks at the electric company, phone company, grocery, etc.
Many years ago I worked for a wealthy family and got a Christmas card portrait of them, cheap s.o.bs, it was black and white ... lunch was half price at the cafeteria that day.
Every year for Christmas, my husband's employer gives a gift card to the local supermarket. Since 2000, it has been for the same amount - $25. Went a lot farther in 2000 than it did this year.
Occasionally we do a Greek Orthodox Christmas a week later ... everything is half price, even the turkey.
Darn, I did have to go with that old Roman version. Sounds better your way! (although I am still leaning towards a pagan dancing naked with wine and cheese version of the holidays) Living in Florida, the naked dancing isn't as difficult on Mr. phinephancy's attributes!
ah, shrinkage, the enemy of all men in a cold climate.
Thus, our dream to retire to a nice caribbean island. Mr. phinephancy and I want to set a record at age 103!
Well Phine, I'll not look that record up. As to Mr. phinephancy, well dear sir, wear pink with pride, stay erect and phancy your phine wife ... and may you both break any record you set.
The President and the Democrats have the upper hand.
Clearly that is correct, but note that even Domenico and Mark, who both work for "liberal" MSNBC, aren't willing to come right out and say it without adding a bunch of hemming and hawing.
If the entire Republican Caucus was caught in bed with Jerry Sandusky and the ghost of Michael Jackson reporters, even reporters for liberal news sites like this one, would still equivocate on which party the event gave advantage to.
nisl
you said it.
Wrong the Tea
Baggers and republicants in the House and Senate are the GRAND OBSTRUCTIONIST
PARTY the sole mission to make Obama one term president and never raise taxes
on the rich or ever cut Defense spending but kill Medicare Medicaid and SS
while not passing there own Jobs bills that they keep turning down.
The Republican's aren't looking so good these days. It seems to me that there is a lot of divisivness among their own party. We know they refuse to work with the Dems, but not working with each other? Interesting, but not surprising.
They are like children whose first word learned was NO. It is the sum total of their vocabulary and they now say it to each other.
What cracks me up is, the GNOP starts the @!$%# storm and then scream for the President to come save them, with their worn out failure of leadership crap!
Ah, but Feisty, do they even have a leadership? Seems they all go their own way.
Nope!
Since when is it up to the President to hold these jack-wagons hands & sing kumbya?
They were elected to a JOB and they need to start doing IT!
... give 'em a break Feisty, they have two heads and only one hand to slap themselves with.
Now there you go saying that nasty word to the right - JOB. We are all supposed to have been born with a silver spoon in our mouth, or be cleaning up the bathrooms!
Republican's need to remember the old saying ( watch what you wish for you might just get it ). They want deficit reduction, come January 1 2013 they will get $6.2 trillion worth of cuts. $1 trillion dollars they agreed on just to raise the debt. ceiling. The $1.2 trillion in automatic cuts the super committee couldn't agree on ($600 billion in defense cuts and $600 billion in non-discretionary spending cuts ) and the $4 trillion in Bush tax cuts that expire on that same day. That all totals to $6.2 trillion and President Obama doesn't have to do anything to get them. Obama played the Republican's like a real pro and they didn't even see it coming.
Reminds me of the Debt ceiling fiasco.
When a Republican was in office John Boehner and Mitch
McConnell voted without hesitation to pass raising the Debt ceiling even
stating that they hope this passed unanimously.
Years the Republicans voted to raise the Debt Ceiling Bush signed into law
2002 350 Billion in tax cut to big business and 450 Billion increase
2003 450 Billion in tax cuts to Big Business and 900 Billion increase
2004 600 Billion in tax Cuts to Big business and 800 Billion Increase
2006 670 Billion in Tax cuts to Bug Business and 781 Billion Increase
2007 700 Billion tax cuts for Big Business and 850 Billion Increase
2008 450 Billion tax Cuts to Big Business and
Total 3.2 Trillion to Big Business $4 Trillion Debt Ceilng
increases under Bush
Total 7.2 Trillion in the Red for the next president coming
in 2009.
Republicans voted to raise the Debt Ceiling every time it
was brought up while a republican was in office and I goggle there response
then it was Boehner and McConnell who said “there should not be any politics
come into play when it comes to a increase in our national debt we need to pass
this to continue to operate”. Also Mike
Pence of Indiana in 2002 said it as a necessity to raise the National debt.
Bush a republican was in office then but now the same Mike Pence now says he
will not vote to raise the Debt ceiling without cuts to programs in healthcare
and Medicare and all of which no cuts for defense or ending the Wars. Now
Republicans and Tea Party think it’s a Great idea to play politics while a
Democrat is in office.
if the first word the repubs learn is no then the fisrt words the dems learn is give me
the house will win on this one. 2 months is a joke. to pass a bill for 2 months is a joke!!! Do you really bevieve what you are saying, because if you are then you people are crazy.
What matters most is the economy and jobs. Both of which, Congress is directly responsible for, and has done "Nothing"! This has to be the most dysfunctional, worst Congress there ever has been in American history. This is probably the fourth time this year this 112th Congress has backed off and punted when they should have scored. Every time they shut down the economy to hurt the president their number go down substantially. The faint signs of recovery are being put out by the TEA party fringe of the GOP-Republican party. The employment numbers are directly attributed to this non-functioning Congress, which ran in 2010 on jobs production, but squandered their opportunity with side shows to deny the president any good press. Sadly, they have failed miserably, as most people know the Congress is directly responsible for legislation, taxes and treaty ratification. President Obama has done admirably under the repeated onslaught from talking heads and those intent on making him a one term president. This Congress, and previous Congress' are directly responsible for the "Housing Bubble" and all have failed their fiduciary function and congressional responsibility to protect the people, rather than the top earners in America. Every excuse put forth is mute, since the Senate approved with an 80% approval of what had been put forth. The elitist TEA-GOP-Republican fringe holding American's hostage over taxes while they defend the upper 1%-ers. After bailing out the banking industry which caused the "Housing Bubble" and now the "Foreclosure Crisis" under the Bush Administration's recession, This "Do Nothing" 112th Congress has the audacity to keep shutting down the economy repeatedly as long as president Obama's in office. All one has to do is look at what the 112th Congress hasn't done, and what president Obama has done. On the continent , not much due to Congressional actions. Internationally, the president has taken out 22 of 30 high ranking Al Qaeda targets and strengthen our international relationship with other nations. All the while the economy slowly makes headway.
Couldn't have said it better myself. The GOP can keep kissing their Tea Party overlords' asses all they want; in 2012 the American people are gonna kick them out. It seems that all the events that have happened this year are out of some left-wing novel. The GOP holding up Congress; Democrats and Obama giving in to their demands in the hope of reaching a compromise; seems like this was all planned. The GOP, for all their stupidity, should have known that all this would bite them in the ass come November 2012. Either someone planned all of this, or the GOP has been proven to be stupid. I have come to believe that there is a sort of plot that conservatives are pursuing. This ain't some tale where some idiots are planning to brainwash the population with subliminal messages; this is just a movement. The conservatives are trying to shrink the government (thank you Captain Obvious), but they are turning Americans against their government by using the old sayings of taxes are bad and so is government. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but that's what I think. YOU HEAR THAT GROVER??? You hear that Tea Party????? You hear that Koch brothers??? I'm on to you!!!!! (haw haw). Hopefully, the American people will catch on to this BS and realize that their government isn't bad; just that it has been taken over by special interests.
Actually, that payroll tax cut if it's to benefit the Poor/middle class should have a "cap" on it reverting back for the higher income people. That would be a "fair cap"...... The poor would spend it & boost the economy......
Hey they featured my question. Cool.
very cool! Great question! Very timely!
Nice, man. Great question.
It's absurd that the Senate passed a 2 month pay roll tax holiday . That is equivalent to NOT doing the real work and postponing things for a later time. ....a later time.......AFTER THEIR LONG HOLIDAY VACATION !!
We need to get rid of Harry Reid and get down to the country's work !
CORRECTION: We need to get rid of McConnell, Can'tor, Bonehead, and the Tea Party idiots and get down to the country's work!