Poor Mr. 'Me First' Bill - all that food over the long weekend and he's still fiber deficient...

Tsk tsk...

You should of skipped the green bean casserole and opted for a double helping of broccoli!

Sorry Bill, the country started it's decline with the tea people GOP republicans and the Supreme Court in 2001.

Great post Bill. Just more a sense of entitlement from America's socialistic youth. The youth like this Occupier are perfect Liberals, no common sense, the "I'm entitled" attitude, the expectation that someone should take care of them, the complete lack of understanding of economics, the feeling that they are victims, the denseness of their heads preventing them understanding the basic way a capitalistic society works.

You see all this is the responses to you (Bill) from the Libs on this board. One of the biggest idiots here cannot even respond with any thing more than a weak personal insult. These are the Occupiers, the ones with 1% of the partially functioning brain cells.

Wow, Joanna, you mean you REALIZE that your brain is barely functional? That is more credit than I generally give you!

Just more a sense of entitlement from America's socialistic youth.

I disagree that they are socialistic but they do have an incredible sense of entitlement. If you choose a major that has poor job prospects why is it society's responsibility to have a job waiting at the end of your education? Is society also responsible for having employment available in the location you desire?

I work with a large number of people in their 40's and 50's who spend Monday to Friday at their job location, not at home. Have the OWS protesters considered moving to find employment? It does not seem as if they are looking very hard but their life experience so far has led them to believe that everything will be handed to them. Just curious but where are all the inner-city minorities? I don't see large numbers of inner-city youth represented at Occupy protests but their unemployment is double the average. Is Occupy as racist as the Tea Party was accused of, as their demographics seem similar? Or maybe Occupy is just a protest of middle-class white youth who have an overblown sense of entitlement?

According to a recent newspaper article, the drivers of the current debt and deficit all happened at the hands of the GOP: 1) two unfunded wars; 2) Bush's unfunded tax cuts twice; and 3) the GOP's unfunded Rx Medicare Plan--note that Paul Ryan, that fiscially conservative guru cast the deciding vote for not paying for their Rx Medicare Plan.

As Reverend Al's MSNBC ad says, the republicans claim to have had nothing to do with the deficit and debt yet there are blueberries all over their faces.

Many people consider moving but many people do not want to leave the city or area they like or away from family. Most states have similar employment problems. If they have homes with mortgages, chances are they cannot sell them because their homes have underwater mortgages. It is too easy to simply say, they should move.

@Jody

So it makes you wonder what changed in 2009 when a Democratic President and Congress was elected.

1) Iraq withdrawal same as Bush timeline. Afghanistan escalated.

2) Bush tax cuts extended in 2010

3) Rx plan expanded by ACA reform to shrink donut hole and expand use of brand drugs over generics after donut hole requirements fulfilled.

I guess that hoping for change was a waste of time.

Don't look at the administration's rhetoric look at their actions.

Alan NJ: I disagree that they are socialistic but they do have an incredible sense of entitlement.

Occupy is on the fringe of socialism. The membership of Occupy certainly love the fruits of capitalism, their iPods, iPads, their smart phones and computers, all produced by a capitalistic society, and more than likely purchased for them by someone else. The Occupiers "thought" process though is one of socialism, where government takes care of their needs, and the taxpayers pay for it.

Jody, Iowa: According to a recent newspaper article, the drivers of the current debt and deficit all happened at the hands of the GOP:

What recent newspaper article would that be Jody? Or are you just spreading your usual garbage?

You got change, Alan. The aftermath of a train wreck is change.

To piggyback on Bill's excellent post, I offer the following illustration of why we are in a mess that gets worse every single day-

Yesterday's Sunday talk shows featured a sort of "point/counterpoint" on the subject of the payroll tax holiday. Democrats are demanding it be extended, republicans argue it has done nothing but further deplete the Social Security Trust Fund.

To offset the losses to the Trust Fund, democrats offer a surcharge on millionaires.

Let's ignore, for the moment, the obvious redistribution of wealth aspect of this proposal, (although it is nice, for a change, to see democrats being honest for once in their lives), and focus on the main issue- which is, surcharging millionaires will NOT replenish the funds in the Teust Fund.

Income taxes, whatever they are called, go into the GENERAL fund- not the Social Security Trust Fund. Therefore, this will NOT offset the losses to that fund.

It is akin to overdrawing your checking account at bank A, then demanding your better off neighbor give you money that you deposit in another checking account at bank B. you'll use the extra cash at bank B to purchase stuff- but the checks will still be bouncing like rubber balls at bank A.

So, this is NOT a proposal to replenish the Trust Fund, but a simple class warfare tactic intended to give the democrats more spending power- and what they see as a great campaign issue.

I have more faith in the American people than do the democrats, it seems. Naked redistribution programs that do NOTHING to address the problem are not, in my opinion, going to gain traction with the electorate.

We've already witnessed the outcome of their proposals- skyrocketing debt, skyrocketing unemployment- kept artificially low by simply removing millions of people from the Civilian Labor
Force- and a stuttering recovery.

Quite honestly, the electorate should have to weigh in on the following proposal- do you want a thousand dollar payroll tax cut today, but a vastly reduced Social Security check in the future?

Cause, them's your options, folks.

JoAnna: " on the fringe" of socialism??...Oh for heaven's sake, take a breath and think for a moment: this isn't to be taken LITERALLY. OWS generally is talking about LOAN interest rates and TUITION rates skyrocketing...the world will still turn and we will still be a democracy if those things were reasonable enough to encourage more Americans to get a higher education.

Alan, NJ: Just curious but where are all the inner-city minorities? I don't see large numbers of inner-city youth represented at Occupy protests but their unemployment is double the average.

Alan, our "elite" media certainly won't examine that aspect of the Occupiers. That type research by our media is reserved for the Tea Party rallies. Minorities have suffered greatly under Obama, and why would Obama address their problems specifically? Barry feels he's entitled to their vote, and in many ways Obama is correct, they'll vote for him no matter what their circumstances.

JoAnnaSmith1

Occupy is on the fringe of socialism. The membership of Occupy certainly love the fruits of capitalism, their iPods, iPads, their smart phones and computers, all produced by a capitalistic society, and more than likely purchased for them by someone else. The Occupiers "thought" process though is one of socialism, where government takes care of their needs, and the taxpayers pay for it.

As usual, JAS is making stuff up. As far as I can tell, most of the OWS people are NOT anti-capitalism. They're just anti the crooked variety of capitalism perpetrated by Bush cronies like Kenny Boy Lay, who brought down Enron, and his fellow crooks who nearly brought down the entire US economy.

AP: OWS generally is talking about LOAN interest rates and TUITION rates skyrocketing..

OWS is talking about forgiveness of student loan debt. In fact, the OWS is now advocating that (former) students refuse to pay for their loans.

Google search keywords: ows student loans

Houston: Kenny Boy Lay, who brought down Enron, and his fellow crooks who nearly brought down the entire US economy.

OWS is about Enron? That happened 10 years ago.

Time to update Houston. Maybe a discussion about Obama adviser Jon Corzine and MF Global might be a better talking point for you.

Actually a very interesting and thought provoking post. I agree with a lot of what is said here. It's true that some liberals want something more akin to socialism but that's fine. The pub's want to go back to the gilded age which would certainly suck for the non-wealthy.

I think every country starts out filled with very hard working individuals until "their generation grows up" and that is a term I like to use which means that the early, hard working generations eventually create a society where everyone can have a little bit. Then the children of that generation grow up and decide that they deserve more and they want the government to help give it to them.

I think the 50s was when this began in the US with a real culmination in the 60s and 70s. Just a guess based on observation.

Well, I think that is okay up to a point and then people should indeed be responsible for their own lives. I'm no socialist and I believe hard work should get a reward. However....

The problem with Bill's post is that it doesn't talk about the reverse of that which is even worse. Instead of the people creating more socialist programs the wealthy have, in the last 30 years, created a more market driven society with as few regulations as possible. As a result, caters to them. They are now quite above the law and, ironically, tax and increase costs the middle classes to pay their debts AND to keep them out of the areas they want to hold for themselves and their children, ie. higher education.

It is most certainly the wealthy 1 or 2% who feel entitled and they demand that you and I (so long as you're middle class) pay up! They have had their political lackeys dismantle regulations both environmental and financial which protect the citizens and they have forced us to pay more in all areas across the board so they can pay less. They view themselves as Darwinisit, social elites and the rest of us are cattle.

Finally, they and their bought and payed for politicians have created a propaganda machine that is second to none to get everyone to think it's patriotic and right for them to do what they do.

I have a student standing in the cold on the side of the road with a sign that asks me to weigh the importance of what is in my shopping bag with that of an education. In the shiny marble and glass building behind her is a fat man in an expensive suite who I will never see but he will force my representatives on cap hill to remove protection for my drinking water, air and retirement so he can rack up another 100 million and when he is successful he will sleep like a baby at night in his 3rd 25k square foot home on secured grounds.

Gee...Which one am I more worried about??

Bill, Fairfax:

I can only presume the message is supposed to be that the dollars used by free Americans to buy the stuff in their shopping bags should have been confiscated by the government and diverted to supporting this lad's schooling.

Why is it, exactly, that conservatives only see things from the selfish perspective of what is being taken away from them?

What do you suppose the crazy conservative economic policies that caused this entire debacle in the first place have taken away from "this lad," only to be given to YOU?

What exactly did YOU do to deserve the favorable tax and economic policies that have manipulated financial markets and allowed you to thrive, at the expense of our youth?

We used to support public education in this country unconditionally, understanding that an educated society is the only really "free" society, and that education benefits all of us.

This might be a good time to remind you, Bill, that "freedom" isn't free.

Of course the ows malcontents don't feel the need to repay student loans- after all, they are "entitled", are they not?

The plain simple fact of the matter is that NO ODY actually needs a student loan to go to college. Rather than a loan, you could get, say, a job- and pay the tuition as you go.

Of course, that limits your dorm life options- so that is not particularly appealing to the ows types.

Joanna...If you are so against SOCIALISM, what do you have to say about Michelle Bachmann's family farm getting goverment subsidies?

Louie Bee: Joanna...If you are so against SOCIALISM, what do you have to say about Michelle Bachmann's family farm getting goverment subsidies?

They shouldn't get them.

AM: Why is it, exactly, that conservatives only see things from the selfish perspective of what is being taken away from them?

Selfish? Are you not happy AM that taxpayers in our more liberal cities are taxed at rates greater that 50% of their income? What will make you happy AM, confiscatory taxes in the 60-70% range?

You talk of selfish, but never in terms of the governments selfishness (and cronyism, and waste, and corruption). It's clear you adore government, but what problems has it solved lately and why do you think the government deserves even more of the workers money?

Alan, NJ, it appears you prefer to ignore the truth about the damage done by Bush and the GOP and instead deflect to point blame at the other side but I expect no less from you. Apparently you advocate raising taxes on the middle and low wage earners during recovery from recession while ignoring that in 2010 the GOP held the tax cuts for 98% of Americans hostage in order to protect the richest 2% who did not need it to assist through economic hard times. You apparently advocate withdrawing troops from Iraq irresponsibly when it was the GOP who took us into an unnecessary and unfunded war. You cannot blame President Obama for the carelessness and recklessness of Bush and the GOP no matter how hard you try. The ACA paid for its expansion of the Rx plan to close the donut hole by negotiating better rates for drugs and other methods--something ignored by the GOP in their plan; ACA was funded. The truth is, the GOP has NOT been fiscally responsible since Ronald Reagan was elected--deficits don't matter, until and democrat wins the presidency. The GOP has no real core any more than Mitt Romney does--their suits are as empty as Romney's.

The local Albany paper has a Hillaryous OWS story this morning. It quotes some of the OWS clowns as saying the "need to change their focus going forward".

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah, right. "Change their focus". As far as I can tell from the local news reports, all they have been doing is getting themselves arrested for violating an 11:00 PM park curfew in the state owned part of the park and then complaining about it. One report a few weeks ago noted that many of the tents set up in the city owned part of the park are empty at night as the "occupants" go home and sleep in their nice warm comfortable beds.

You have to love all the pubs talk about OWS people being "dead beats" and wanting "entitlements" when in fact these fiscally responsible people (republicans / TP) plan on leaving these students a $15 trillion debt to deal with. I guess their form of "capitalism" is very responsible, ..........what a bunch of hypocrits

JoAnnaSmith1

OWS is talking about forgiveness of student loan debt. In fact, the OWS is now advocating that (former) students refuse to pay for their loans.

What JAS1 of course doesn't want to talk about is that the some of the OWS people who feel that way took out loans to afford the skyrocketing costs of a college education, expecting to get a job to pay back the loan on graduation, but then found that there are no jobs to be had. So what are they supposed to do? Rob convenience stores to pay off their debts?

Evidently, hundreds of billions in debt forgiveness to the corporate malefactors who caused the current economic problems and then used their taxpayer-supplied bailout money to give themselves bigger bonuses is OK with JoAnnaSmith. But debt forgiveness for college kids who may have worked hard for a college education and got nothing to show for it is "socialism."

JAS1:

OWS is about Enron? That happened 10 years ago.

I didn't say it was "about" Enron. But it was about the same sort of game-playing by the crooks at Enron but on a grander scale that led to the near-collapse of the US economy in the 2007 Bush Recession. As for Corzine, who said that SOME Democrats can't be as greedy as MOST Republicans?

But of course, this is just a diversion. JAS doesn't want to admit that her characterization of the majority of OWS protesters as "socialists" is a big fat stinking lie.

It’s "Historic Obama's" 30th time golfing this year and the 88th golf outing of his presidency BY FAR THE MOST of any President in HISTORY "in the face" of struggling hard working citizens trying to make ends meet while he attends THREE $35 THOUSAND (that's "t" as in "thousand") per plate FUNDRAISERS every week with BILLIONAIRE DEMOCRAT CAMPAIGN BUNDLERS why wouldn't they HAND HIM THE CASH when he HANDS THEM $$$ 1/2 BILLION in KICKBACKS just to use ONE example or another NO TAXES FOR GE/ Jeff Immelt while Obama RAISES TAXES LIKE MAD WITH OBAMACARE your medical device prices guaranteed to skyrocket who will the White House blame for that?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2812618/posts

@ Houston -- re #2.22 -- that was brilliant.

@ Joe -- so what is everyone so upset about?

A bunch of empty tents on public property?

I don't think that's what they're upset about. What they're upset about -- or should be -- is the visual evidence that they have mismanaged so badly that it has come to this.

It's guilt, Joe. Or it should be.

no joe:

The plain simple fact of the matter is that NO ODY actually needs a student loan to go to college. Rather than a loan, you could get, say, a job- and pay the tuition as you go.

Been there, done that, didn't want my daughter to have to do it -- it's a lot more expensive now than it was when I paid my way through school. She never could have done it in four years. So I paid her way. But not everyone can do that.

Houston's question about what you want people to do who graduate from college and find there are no jobs because of your generation's mismanagement of the economy is a good one.

What say you, no joe? Should they all rob convenience stores? And how do you expect them to pay back the student loans THEY ALREADY HAVE by working at McDonalds, much less provide their own rent, utilities, food AND health care costs?

C'mon, no joe -- let's hear your practical solutions. I'm still waiting on those.

All so Bill and his family can fill up THEIR shopping bags and thumb their noses at everyone else.

Merry Christmas, and God bless us, everyone.

Have the OWS protesters considered moving to find employment?

Not only have corporations moved jobs overseas, apparently much to the glee of conservatives, now they suggest that you simply pack up and move to China, India, or some other foreign country to find work.

Houston: What JAS1 of course doesn't want to talk about is that the some of the OWS people who feel that way took out loans to afford the skyrocketing costs of a college education, expecting to get a job to pay back the loan on graduation, but then found that there are no jobs to be had. So what are they supposed to do?

Yeah, no jobs. Obama is into it by trillions of deficit busting dollars for jobs, but there are no jobs. Now Obama wants another half a trillion for jobs. Congress finally had the guts to tell him no because it's clear he doesn't know what he's doing.

So why should the taxpayer make up the difference for these student loans the Occupiers want to default on? That is what is being asked by the Occupiers.

Homework assignment for you Houston. Did you ever think of why education costs are skyrocketing? Hint: It's kind of the same reason health care costs are skyrocketing.

Off you go now. We await your answer.

Alan, NJ, it appears you prefer to ignore the truth about the damage done by Bush and the GOP and instead deflect to point blame at the other side but I expect no less from you. Apparently you advocate raising taxes on the middle and low wage earners during recovery from recession while ignoring that in 2010 the GOP held the tax cuts for 98% of Americans hostage in order to protect the richest 2% who did not need it to assist through economic hard times. You apparently advocate withdrawing troops from Iraq irresponsibly when it was the GOP who took us into an unnecessary and unfunded war. You cannot blame President Obama for the carelessness and recklessness of Bush and the GOP no matter how hard you try. The ACA paid for its expansion of the Rx plan to close the donut hole by negotiating better rates for drugs and other methods--something ignored by the GOP in their plan; ACA was funded. The truth is, the GOP has NOT been fiscally responsible since Ronald Reagan was elected--deficits don't matter, until and democrat wins the presidency.

No Jody I do not ignore what the Bush Administration did, and I have often stated here that they were the most fiscally irresponsible Administration to date. However, you seem to think that because Bush was so bad the current Administration should get a pass. My point is that this Administration has fiscally been no better than the prior Administration, and in some areas worse. My particular points are:

Afghanistan - No escalation, in fact a draw down to 15K of special forces (advocated by Huntsman)

Taxes - Bush rates should have been allowed to expire in 2010. If 98% of Americans were being held hostage then the Democrats simply expose themselves as the worst leaders and politicians if they cannot convince the MINORITY to change position with 98% support behind them. Democrats love this particular narrative to hide the shear cowardice they exhibited in December of 2010. You also ignore the fact the Administration wanted more deficit spending to aid their re-election and this was a good deal for them.

On the drug deal, yes the Administration negotiated a new deal that cost the taxpayers more and improved the bottom line of drug companies. Sure it was funded, BY THE TAXPAYER.

Add to this the payroll tax cut and the stimulus and the last two Administrations have spent every dime they could get their hands on. Do you get it that the government borrows 43% of its spending? Here's a scary little thought. Germany could not sell all the bonds it wanted last week at the interest rates offered. Germany is in a much stronger fiscal position than the US. The US is currently borrowing at 1-2 percent. Historically it has borrowed at 5-7 percent. If borrowing costs return to their historical norms 40% of the current Federal budget will be needed to cover borrowing interest (not principal).

I agree that Republican Administrations have been fiscally irresponsible as they have been in power the majority of the last 30 years, but as the Democrats have been the majority in the House of Representatives during those Administrations there is more than enough blame to go round for our fiscal mess.

Joanna agent smith of the Gilded Age'rs,

So why should the taxpayer make up the difference for these student loans the Occupiers want to default on? That is what is being asked by the Occupiers.

If we did pay off their school debt it would be cheaper than what we paid and continue to pay to the debts of the gambling bankers on Wall St. Not to mention it would be for a far nobler purpose.

And, oh yea, nobody asked me if I wanted to pay the crooked banker's debts. I was forced to do it by the same fat azzholes who call those looking for mortgage relief unpatriotic, unworthy slobs.

Oh, and lets not forget that the reason those home loans failed is because they were created with the knowledge they would fail OR due to the collapse of the market from bad banker gambling debts caused millions to lose their jobs.

Why are you FOR the criminals, agent smith.

Off you go now. We await your answer.

This just goes to prove my point that JAS1 is a group of posters that is working under ONE moniker. They have no points to make on ANY argument, and continue to spout drivel, probably just because they can. If I was posting and waiting for an answer, I would say 'I await your answer' and not 'WE await your answer'.

Houston, you are being tag-teamed.

I am pretty sure Houston will be able to smack ALL of the JAS1 posters down without a problem.

Not only have corporations moved jobs overseas, apparently much to the glee of conservatives, now they suggest that you simply pack up and move to China, India, or some other foreign country to find work.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703803904576152630710927512.html?mod=WSJ_WSJ_US_News_5

Maybe they could just look in the United States

M.Fisher: If we did pay off their school debt it would be cheaper than what we paid and continue to pay to the debts of the gambling bankers on Wall St. Not to mention it would be for a far nobler purpose.

Paying more of others debt is never cheaper Fisher.

How's this, you pay your bills, I'll pay mine. Deal?

What exactly did YOU do to deserve the favorable tax and economic policies that have manipulated financial markets and allowed you to thrive, at the expense of our youth?

Good grief AM, now you've really gone off the deep end. Just why would you presume I have benefited from the alleged dastardly policies you mention? Maybe because the truth that I'm just a middle class slug like most others around here wouldn't fit your narrative? Maybe because my 401K crashed just as much as everyone else's during the meltdown? Pick up your game dear, lest the stench of leftist shill become unbearable.

If you choose a major that has poor job prospects why is it society's responsibility to have a job waiting at the end of your education?

Fair question Alan, check this out.

http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2011/11/28/the_root_cause_of_market_failure_in_higher_education_99387.html

What recent newspaper article would that be Jody? Or are you just spreading your usual garbage?

Another fair question. The answer is just spreading usual garbage, but I can help out. The "analysis" that purports to support that view comes from the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities. They tout themselves as non-partisan, but actually lean quite a bit left. One of their key flamethrowers is Jared Bernstein, 'nuff said.

M. Fisher – thanks for your comment about my "thought provoking post." I'd like to return the compliment, but just can't. Your post was just a typical screed filled with the usual leftist talking points to support a bogus narrative.

Jack in Portsmouth – enjoyed your post 1.1, well written and funny. Of course, it was also typical of the way the left ridicules and demeans those who don't see the world they way they do. So here's my challenge to you: care to engage in a substantive discussion of my post? Show us you got some game Jack, something more than just sliming the opposition with clever prose.

I know people who had been willing participants in the occupy movement in Dallas - by the way that movement was shut down around Nov. 19th. I will defend their right to protest, the right to march and rally. However that is not what they were doing. I still don't know what they hope to accomplish by camping out.

I understand to cause change you need a movement but you must have a purpose. What do they want - End the war in Iraq/Afgan? End the Fed? Keep money out of politics? Boycott the big banks? Lower tuition? They need to vote in people who share their aims, something the TP were able to do.

I don't agree with observations that call the OWS anticapitalist. However it is interesting to note that it appears to be a largely middle class, student driven movement that lacks significant minority involvement.

Yes there are inequalities in this country, IMO one party over the other tries to augment and compound those inequalities. On a smaller scale however It makes one wonder, do these predominantly middle class, white students finally understand how it is to be overlooked by society?

Speaking strictly to the demographics of the occupiers, perhaps a great number of minorities are not taking part in these events because minorities already know that the deck has been stacked against them. You have to outwork the rest to show the MAN. If I lacked a job or had to pay off student debt I would put ALL of my efforts to busting my behind to get a job.

Those that are spending their time camping out could be getting a first taste and shock that life isn't easy.

JAS:

Yeah, no jobs. Obama is into it by trillions of deficit busting dollars for jobs, but there are no jobs. Now Obama wants another half a trillion for jobs. Congress finally had the guts to tell him no because it's clear he doesn't know what he's doing.

Go ahead, JoAnna: blame Obama. Place the blame for the lousy economy anywhere except where it really belongs: On Bush, on the Republicans, and on their corporate paymasters.

It's no use pointing out to JAS1 the fact that the private sector has been adding jobs every month for over a year, now, after losing 700,000 jobs per month during Obama's first term in office. Her brain has been too ravaged by Obama Derangment Syndrome to be able to comprehend much of anything that happens in the real world.

JoAnnSmith1:

Homework assignment for you Houston. Did you ever think of why education costs are skyrocketing? Hint: It's kind of the same reason health care costs are skyrocketing.

Off you go now. We await your answer.

Here's the answer, but of course you're not going to like it:

http://www.usnews.com/education/articles/2009/01/15/the-surprising-causes-of-those-college-tuition-hikes

The main reason tuition has been rising faster than college costs is that colleges had to make up for reductions in the per-student subsidy state taxpayers sent colleges. In 2006, the last year for which Wellman had data, state taxpayers sent $7,078 per student to the big public research universities. That's $1,270 less (after accounting for inflation) than they sent in 2002.

So, the government can't or won't make the investments in education necessary from keeping the US to degrade into the sort of banana republic the Republicans apparently view as that "Shining City on a Hill" where the super rich live at the summit and everyone else lives in shanty towns at the base.

Now, when are you going to answer MY questions instead of dodging it? What are college grads supposed to do who have no jobs and can't pay off the loans? And cough up some proof that any but a small minority of OWS protesters are "socialists."

Paying more of others debt is never cheaper Fisher.

How's this, you pay your bills, I'll pay mine. Deal?

Tell it to the bankers, smith!

Houston: Go ahead, JoAnna: blame Obama. Place the blame for the lousy economy anywhere except where it really belongs: On Bush, on the Republicans, and on their corporate paymasters.

Obama spent the money, all borrowed money, Houston. There is no question about it. He and his economic team predicted great things with fixing the unemployment problem by spending that money. There is no question about that either. But those predictions turned out to be not true. Now it's time to hold Obama and his team accountable, something you Houston seem incapable of doing. We're now $15 trillion in debt, up $5 trillion in less than 3 years, while $1.5 trillion dollar deficits continue to add to that debt. I don't see anyone but Obama spending that money Houston.

Source: http://economics21.org/blog/revisiting-unemployment-predictions

But keep feeding your delusions and keep blaming Bush.

Pietro:

If I was posting and waiting for an answer, I would say 'I await your answer' and not 'WE await your answer'.

Houston, you are being tag-teamed.

Either that, or JoAnnaSmith has delusions of being royalty. Perhaps "she" thinks she's the Grand Duchess Anastasia and fears that the Bolsheviks are gonna get her.

Alan, NJ - Don't look at the administration's rhetoric look at their actions.

You bring up a couple of good points Alan, but who among the conservative contenders will repeal all the tax cuts as we both appear to favor? I trust you to be honest that our deficit can't be reigned in through spending cuts alone.

My take if Obama is re-elected, I think he will have the spine to make the hard choices (since he won't have to face election again.) As you probably guess, I think if the GOP wins with future control of both houses coming, they would drastically change the social contract.

Putting all that aside, to put it mildly if a Repub is voted in, you know they will pander, put off choices and patronize us as they explain their new found positions.

Houston: What are college grads supposed to do who have no jobs and can't pay off the loans?

Take other jobs outside their area and/or outside their field of study. They took out the loans, they signed their name agreeing to pay them back, it's their responsibility to do so.You got a problem with personal responsibility Houston? It appears you do.

And in the mean time, maybe they can elect a President that has a clue on how the economy works and not just a pretty boy that panders without producing.

JAS, still squirming and wriggling like a worm on a hook to avoid answering my question about college grads who have no way to pay back their loans:

Obama spent the money, all borrowed money, Houston. There is no question about it. He and his economic team predicted great things with fixing the unemployment problem by spending that money.

What there is no question of is that the overwhelming majority of economists have concluded that the stimulus money saved the US from going into the ditch that Bush and his minions had been steering the country towards for 8 long years. But what do they know? They're not experts like JAS.

Bill:

Pick up your game dear, lest the stench of leftist shill become unbearable.

Been studying rhetoric with JoAnna, Bill?

For a "middle-class slug," you sure talk funny.

JoAnnaSmith1:

Take other jobs outside their area and/or outside their field of study.

So, they should either get jobs that either don't exist or jobs flipping burgers that cannot produce anywhere near enough to pay off student loans. That's not a solution, it's a bad joke.

They took out the loans, they signed their name agreeing to pay them back, it's their responsibility to do so.You got a problem with personal responsibility Houston? It appears you do.

Why don't YOU take some personal responsibility and admit you were lying about the OWS protesters being socialists? Now that corporations are people, maybe they should take some responsibility for their actions that caused the economy to crater and pay off the loans that these students can't pay through no fault of their own.

And in the mean time, maybe they can elect a President that has a clue on how the economy works and not just a pretty boy that panders without producing.

The only thing that Mitt Romney has a clue about is how to make money firing American workers. It's true that the disaster the Republicans created was much worse than Obama had expected, but you should thank God that McCain wasn't elected after he admitted he didn't know much about the economy and then proved it with his bizarre hijinks about "suspending his campaign" after the bottom fell out of the stock market.

BTW: I guess I don't get any points for answering JoAnnaSmith's question on what's driving the increases in the cost of education. Oh, well.

Houston: So, they should either get jobs that either don't exist or jobs flipping burgers that cannot produce anywhere near enough to pay off student loans. That's not a solution, it's a bad joke.

You're right Houston. They should just sit around, bang a drum, chant, and whine. They should sit on their hind-ends and wait for someone to walk up to them, shake their hand and tell them "You've got the job!" They should blame their circumstances on others, and not even try. That's how this country was built Houston, by people expecting others to do it for them.

Is nothing good enough for you Houston? Is no one showing any kind of initiative to be personally responsible and work out their own problems a solution for you Houston? Is it always someones elses fault to the point the that personal responsibility no longer matters to you? You're in constant "whine" mode. Grow up.

Houston: Why don't YOU take some personal responsibility and admit you were lying about the OWS protesters being socialists?

Why so sensitive? That shoe fits them very well.

Houston - I'll try to answer your question.

I think there could be room for a government regulation to help lessen the amount of interest that students need to pay back. I think Obama actually proposed that as an executive order? If he didn't I'm sure someone can correct me. It was pointed out before that the bailout for the banks charged very low interest rates.

I would like to see a government jobs WPA program make it temporary but we both know funding would not pass Congress. Therefore, I don't see a government solution. The students that can't find a job in their field have to take what they can get. It may take time but hopefully the economy will improve. Times are terrible I know, but what else can they do. Suprisingly it sounds a little like JAS1, shudder. The occupying might make them feel better, but in my opinion, it isn't going to help in the long run.

While I feel for these students, they are not the worst off. I saw a segment on 60 minutes yesterday about families living in cars, children not having houses. The working poor, those in poverty and the homeless who are at rock bottom, I feel for them, more than the middle class college graduate.

You bring up a couple of good points Alan, but who among the conservative contenders will repeal all the tax cuts as we both appear to favor? I trust you to be honest that our deficit can't be reigned in through spending cuts alone.

Nope, the deficit will require tax increases and spending cuts. My slogan is less government for more money. It's inevitable.

However, I do believe we should go the route of reforming exemptions rather than raising rates. If you read the story this weekend regarding Ronald S Lauder the manipulation of the tax code is unbelievable. I am also for reducing the corporate tax rate to zero and making up the slack by raising the tax on Capital Gains and Dividends. If the there is no corporate tax it will reduce lobbyists trying to get tax breaks for corporations. It will also level the field between companies who do not have inside connections.

@Yellowdog - Your post at 2.34 was especially resonate with me. Thanks for the perspective.

When I first posted here, some people did try to ignore the fact that I myself was an African-American, who had "grown up" on the goverment dole; the particulars of which (while not anybody's particular business) I have no problem sharing...

The really telling aspect of the whole "Occupy" movement has been in this country at least, a decidedly...homogenized...component to the protestors.

I believe that the larger part of that has more to do with what it has always meant to be an American...and of how starkly different the dividing lines for that have always been.

Black people say all the time that we have to be twice as good as any white person at whatever we do in order to get half as much credit for it. And ain't that the truth.

When speaking of "entitlement" (and I understand that my perspective isn't necessarily the standard most African-Americans are seen under), I get the feeling that these middle-class, largely Caucasian young and middle-aged people, had a deep-seated feeling and understanding and belief that they were supposed to be able to live their dreams if they played by the rules.

Justice and fairness would be its own reward, in essence.

Unfortunately, there are some African-Americans who harbor just the opposite view (and also unfortunately, justifiably so): the only justice and fairness you're entitled to is what you're able to wrest away from those who would deny it to you.

The bigger reason, to me, why there isn't more color in these protests is exactly what you said, Yellowdog....

...for black folk...it's the same song, differnet dance....

...only now....there ain't no "white" or "colored" water fountains to distract anybody....

Oh, bill...

just a typical screed filled with the usual leftist talking points to support a bogus narrative.

I love the lazy way you try to minimalize the truth... Just wave your hands and refer to anything that you don't like as a "screed" or "leftist talking points". What a narrow minded and lop-sided voter you are. Try pointing out why my comments are wrong rather than just hand waving and you may get the time of day.

When speaking of "entitlement" (and I understand that my perspective isn't necessarily the standard most African-Americans are seen under)...

Thank you for sharing as well Marcoo. Whether you are African American or Latino like me, you are right to see things from your own perspective outside of what political parties would expect or want you to think.

@Bill

Nice article. As I've said before, would we be so frightened of China and India if they were producing millions of liberal arts majors? We see them producing millions of scientists, engineers and technologists and we respond with communications majors.

Try pointing out why my comments are wrong rather than just hand waving and you may get the time of day.

I've already gotten your time of day pal, but won't quibble on that point.

The pub's want to go back to the gilded age

And your proof for this sweeping statement is where?

Instead of the people creating more socialist programs the wealthy have, in the last 30 years, created a more market driven society with as few regulations as possible. As a result, caters to them. They are now quite above the law and, ironically, tax and increase costs the middle classes to pay their debts AND to keep them out of the areas they want to hold for themselves and their children, ie. higher education.

You might want to provide some proof for that one too. And while you're at it, maybe share with us the citation that proves this point:

It is most certainly the wealthy 1 or 2% who feel entitled and they demand that you and I (so long as you're middle class) pay up!

And this one as well:

In the shiny marble and glass building behind her is a fat man in an expensive suite who I will never see but he will force my representatives on cap hill to remove protection for my drinking water, air and retirement so he can rack up another 100 million and when he is successful he will sleep like a baby at night in his 3rd 25k square foot home on secured grounds.

Like I said pal, your material is just a screed without objective support that weaves the preferred narrative of the left. And a screed on which I have already wasted too much of the time in my day.

Been studying rhetoric with JoAnna, Bill?

No AM, but now that you mention it that's not a bad idea. I'm always amenable to ways to improve my game.

For a "middle-class slug," you sure talk funny.

Maybe if I didn't spend so much time working my way through college I would be able to talk like you. But somehow I think I get my points across around here.

JoaAnna: Your claim that OWS is encouraging students to default on loans holds no water since OWS has no official leadership, remember....and hardly any authroity or way to "encourage" anyone to do anything (seeing a sign in a photo hardly qualifies). These attempts to discredit a movement you dislike without even understanding it, simply because many who support it are college educated, are more than a bit empty...

Bill,

Jack in Portsmouth – enjoyed your post 1.1, well written and funny. Of course, it was also typical of the way the left ridicules and demeans those who don't see the world they way they do. So here's my challenge to you: care to engage in a substantive discussion of my post? Show us you got some game Jack, something more than just sliming the opposition with clever prose.

I've been busy with a lot of things today and just saw your post. Sure, I'll engage with you--as soon as I see something "substantive". All I see is a lot of bellyaching and whining. Otherwise you're just wasting my time.

2 points to remember in discussing the cost and/or need/entitlement for solid education for our displaced workers, young people and children...

The House Republican Plan for America's Job Creators clearly outlines a plan to expand Visas for foreign students graduating from the same universities our students struggle financially to attend. This represents two important points, first, that the education is satisfactory for the needs of employers and second, that rather than boost opportunity in the Homeland, they would rather recruit elsewhere.

Another point to ponder is just how will the need for technologically capable professionals be filled when a downward pressure on wages coupled with higher education costs adds a lock to the door the GOP has already begun to close on our door of opportunity for displaced workers, young people and children.

Like it or not, whether you feel that just because <you> worked your way through college when tuition was 2K and books cost $50 per semester, the landscape is very much changed. It isn't only the students who will lose when they can't handle the 80K in education debt and single semester book budgets that exceed an entire year's tuition at a state university during the 1970's - it's the citizens and consumers who have to stand in line for services from an ever decreasing number of service providers.

Bush's unfunded tax cuts twice

*SB*

Liberals are stupid.

Next year they will be forgotten.

http://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/27/the-future-of-the-obama-coalition/

That story exemplifies Obama's desire to govern/exploit the few.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/11/28/abcs_tapper_to_carney_looks_like_obama_is_campaigning_on_taxpayer_dime.html

What?!? Rules don't apply to King O. Just ask the millions of mindless drones who wish to fellate him.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/nov/28/syria-troops-kill-children-un-report

NO CHILDREN FOR OIL! WTF happened to R2P? It was so catchy.

The idiots think their fool has a chance at being re-elected?

AP -141...

Socialism may be hard for you to understand so let's try "marxism" instead. I seem to recall that karl and his buddy (name escapes my memory right now) promoted an economic and social theory that everyone would share equally. A wonderfull concept to be sure, but structurally flawed in that it doesn't take into account human individuality or exceptionalism on which America and other countries were built.

Think about it, the liberal left thinks, or at least promotes, that such a plan is doable in making everyone "equal" in both the social and economic structure of our nation. All that needs to happen is to write the laws necessary to impliment. Sorry, too many Americans believe in inovation and exceptionalism to ever buy off on such a system here in the US. Even the disjointed OWS message says that it can't happen. Even if you listened closely to obamas rhetoric, liberals would see that it won't happen, but he sure does try to make political hay out of it. Not hard to see him playing to the electorate by saying "let the 2% pay more" and yet talk about exceptionalism. Sorry the ones that only want to turn a wrench should be paid far less that those willing to innovate or lead their fellow workers.

In high school orwells book "animal farm" was required reading and the end of the story still said "that some animals were more equal than others" Only I believe that orwell real point was that as the animals (the human populace) gave up their individuality and exceptianalism they would fall prey to the lie that the few sold them on their worthlessness so that they could be "equal" amongst themselves and inferior to their political leaders.

Anna, sweety, trying to fill fiestty's boots of belittlement? I realize this is FR and outside the realm of legal or even one of logical arguments. Don't you find it hard to present a legal argument based on facts presented before the bar when you have such difficulty in presenting one here? A shame that you have changed so much over the last 6 months.

To the rest of the libs, It is a real shame that since 2009 the congressional left isolated themselves from bipartisanship legislation by telling the right that real debate was not needed. All that bipartisanship lawmaking prior to 2009 just wasted, and now FR libs still think the right is to blame for everything.

Interesting that even obama is coming under scrutiny for insulating himself from the everyday business of governing. Rhetoric without action won't make him so endearing to the general public. Like the proverbial finger pointing of blame to the right, many will see the three fingers pointing back to himself.

What is the old saying..."you will reap what you sow"

Bill of fairfax...

nice analysis on that poor student carrying the sign. OWS probably has a valid point or two to make, but unlike the protestors of the late 670's and the tea party of 2009-2010 they can't unify and communicate to the 99%.

Bill, perhaps it is time for you to update your insightful study on cluelessness on FR from last year.

Grammaknows ...

.if todays American students don't want to pursue an advanced degree in math and sciences why not extend the opprtunity for those to stay in the US as lawful immigrants. America grew because we provided legal status for many to immigrate to America. The government didn't tell them here is some $$$, they basically told everyone that they could be who,ever they wanted to be.

The foreign students you seem to rail against (by bringing up education $$$) want to learn, want to be a better person and want to excell. Those American youths have the same opportunity, they just don't want to, except for the few willing to do what it takes. It is more than just a question of money.

Doug ponders... mr carny almost had me laughing out loud as I listened. All that dancing and talking about politics in the swing states as he referenced the 2008 elections to have changed from red to blue. etc, etc. 5+ minutes of posturing and it looks like he lost track of what the question was after 2 minutes.

Interesting that he couldn't justify the visits as anything but being politically motivated. A point he made time after time. I always considered talking politics meant campaigning. Must be that change obama wants to promote. lol!

I do so like obama choice of forums and cherry picking of the audience members. Fascinating also that these excursion were not based on any natural or man induced catastrophe in that area, but rather "we need to pass my bill now".

American Girl-724855 "Anyone who has a brain knows that The Republican Administration headed by George W. Bush and Dick Cheney "devastated the economy"."

Perhaps some comparisons are in order;

Let's look at the record, according to the government's own Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS);

People employed in 2000 (Clinton's last year) = 136,891,000.

People employed in 2008 (Bush II's last year) = 145,362,000. A gain of 8,471,000 jobs.

People employed in 2010 (After 2 years of Obama) = 139,064,000. A LOSS of 6,298,000 jobs.

The link to the government's BLS site to verify the information is;

http:www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat.pdf

On the matter of economic growth;

Gross Domestic Product for 2000 (Clinton's last year) = $9.952 Trillion.

Gross Domestic Product for 2008 (Bush's last year) = $14.369 Trillion, a gain of 44%, or 5.55% per year.

Gross Domestic Product for 2011 (3 years of Obama) = $14.850 Trillion (est), a gain of only 3.3%, or slightly over 1% per year.

Who did you say 'devastated the economy'?

greetings yellowdog (post 2.34 and beyond) I trust you and yours had a bountiful thanksgiving...

On OWS They need to narrow down their concerns and they need to find appropriate spokesmen to sell the argument. Right now it is like they have handed out thousands of microphones all tuned to the same frequency and all trying to talk at the same time. They need to follow the KISS principle. The tea party kept it simple and they surprised many in the 2010 primaries and midterm elections.

Unlike many of the FR libs you show an astute understanding of American politics. We both know that what one politician campaigns on doesn't make it so unless congress and the executive branch are in lock step with little regard for including the opposition party in the action.

Obama and the democratic leadership made the mistake of thinking that if only a few right supported ideas were included in legislation that the right would say OK without debate. Tough nuts to obama and company for this type of thinking. Like an unthinking parent who fails to understand what the child is really trying to say, the parent only alienates the child by dictating the rules to them.

I for one am unwilling to give obama a second term in part because he failed to offer bipartisanship until mid 2010. If he was unable to promote bipartisanship in his first term, what hope for the American people is there to acheive unity in 2013 and beyond? Will obama come out and say to the right that he was wrong in publicly chastising them throughout 2011 when he needed their support.

Obama needs to commit to what he intends to do if re-elected, before the 2012 elections. We both agree that the obama (bush) tax cuts needs to expire in 2013 and that the majority of that $3 trillion plus revenue over ten years be used to pay down debt with no exception. In line with this, spending must also be curtailed as we both know there is a lot of government waste and duplication of services. Along with all of this comprehensive tax reform needs to be addressed in a step by step manner and not in the manner obama went after healthcare..

On last fridays segment of bloombergTV, called "political capital" hosted by chief bloomberg editor Al hunt. Mr hunt asked the question to a progressive think tank group president on what she thought of how insulated from washington politics obama was. Seems that obama had a very narrow field of personage that he was friendly to. One was oklahoma sen Tom coburn (R) and the other (more recently) is former pres. clinton.

If a POTUS doesn't want to reach out to others on what their concerns are now, why should we believe that he will do so if re-elected?

http://www.newsweek.com/2010/09/12/fineman-what-went-wrong-for-obama-and-the-dems.html?GT1=43002ml

american-2051576

Excellent post,

I think most americans have given up on expecting anything from the POTUS as far as looking to the "other" side.

IMHO, he's already started campaigning before there is even a candidate to campaign against. Campaigning against congress isn't going to last long, there will be a backlash from his own party eventually.

How that will appear I don't know, but so far it sounds weak and unappealing. I hear so many liberals talking up Mittney or the Grinch, as the republican candidate I certainly hope not, we do not need more of the same old same old.

no jo, no bo, nj

Actually, Social Security payroll taxes go first to paying current benefits and then into special Treasury bonds. While it is true that the actual funds go into the General Fund, accounting can easily compute what funds are going where, even in the federal budget. The problem that many of us have with the "holiday" is that is does deplete those future resources (the bonds) of the Social Security system.

BTW, Social Security is one of the largest holders of US debt. Money we essentially owe ourselves to be collected in future decades.

I believe that Arpaio endorsed him in his run for Governor also.

Sounds like one hand washing the other...

It never ceases to amaze me...

President Obama was elected 3 years ago and his critics say we elected him under the misguided idea that he was some kind of miracle worker.

Now those critics are attacking President Obama because THEY think he's some kind of miracle worker.

Oh, the irony.

Yeah, stop golfing and that would fix everything, right?

...and the Speaker was where last week?

mmm i know, its tough to change anything with the worst congress in our history and republican party that refuses to listen to America on taxes. As soon as they start listening to the people, our country will beable to make some PROGRESS.

Madison....today the DOW is up 300 pts, thanks to great holiday spending. You are aware that the market can be very volatile and that the President (any President) has little daily affect on its performance? In today's global market and economy there are too many causes and affects. Don't post dumb and untrue remarks just to try and make a point.

Don't post dumb and untrue remarks just to try and make a point.

Madison is Sniffy's bench warmer...

In another dumb conservative blunder, Governor Sam Brownback of Kansas, took umbrage at a tweet sent by a teenager whilst attending a Youth Government function, commenting "he Sucks" with the hash line, 'heblowsalot".

The governor's office contacted her school's principal, demanding she write a letter of apology, which she so far has refused to do.

I have a couple of thoughts on this, in a red state such as Kansas, a conservative republican, must never hear any criticism and has such a thin skin when hearing some, gets really bent out of shape. What about First Amendment rights? Dont they exist in redland areas?

As for the principal, doing the dirty work of an overinflated elected official, unbelievable.

lol @ madison.."worst stock market week since blah blah blah". When the dow finished plunging after the housing crisis burst, it was 7000 or so, now its 11000 or so. My math says wall street thinks obama has done a great job. :)

Next madison will be cherry picking "the worst 23 minutes since blah blah blah" to "prove" a "point".

and the "point" about "obamaville ows homeless tents" was just plain stupid.

It's doubtful that any of those bashing Obama with rhetoric they heard from right wing/GOP/tea party pundits, are "aware".

"asleep", is a better term to describe their state of being.

I didn't vote for Obama(nor McCain), but if those GOP hopefuls are the only ones running against him, I'm going to vote for Obama this time.

It's a safe bet that McCain/Palin would have us in a worse mess at this time.

No matter who took over in the WH after the Bush/Cheney(mostly Cheney) Admin., our economy wasn't going to get fixed in 4 years.

While Obama is far from perfect, he's done surprisingly well considering how he's been demonized and blocked by so many haters.

Which other POTUS entered the WH with 2 wars going on, an economy in such terrible shape, and with his political rivals swearing they'd do everything they can to make him fail/a 1 term POTUS?

Huntsman is the only possible GOP candidate I might consider. I'd still have to pick Obama, as he now has experience as POTUS.

Matter of fact, the more I hear the hateful BS accusations against Obama(by the "right" and ignorant), the more I'm pushed towards voting for him.

American Lobo, well said.

OBAMA STILL HITS THE LINKS

Obviously another "I Hate Obama" comment. So now Obama is suppose to check with Wall Street to make sure the market is trending up before hitting the links. Tell me, is this only a requirement for the president or does it apply to all politicians? Does this requirement only apply to democrats or both parties? Something tells me Obama was not the only politician to hit the links this weekend.

I'm sure you can find some other, stronger, reasons to spew your Bash Obama rhetoric.

psst!! Obama - quick!! The Dow is up 310 points .. schedule that tee time.

It’s "Historic Obama's" 30th time golfing this year and the 88th golf outing of his presidency BY FAR THE MOST of any President in HISTORY "in the face" of struggling hard working citizens trying to make ends meet while he attends $35 THOUSAND (that's "t" as in "thousand") per plate FUNDRAISERS every week with rich Hollywood, Wall Street, Labor, Big Corporate and Pharma, Union and Other Leftist Democrat elitists. That is the point. The President is a two faced phoney hypocrite hanging out with his rich friends living in opulence on taxpayer money while saying "the OWS protesters are the reason I became President."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2812618/posts

@ Madison - you would prefer, perhaps he go bowling in the basement like Nixon & Bush?

Madison From NY

It's not just obama doing the "however many per plate fundraisers"

Just about every president from Hoover on to the present have been doing them, it's one of the election time perks of being the incumbent.

As far as the dollar value of those "plates", direct inflation, the actual value received is about the same as in Hoovers day.

The rich and famous have always pandered to the powerful politicians in every election year starting about the 1800 election or so. it doesn't matter what their party affiliation is.

@ american...I have zero problem with immigrants, legal or otherwise wanting to work, live and raise their families in the US. Keeping people out under the false pretense that they are "stealing" farm jobs while making it easier for those who go the full run of US university education to have direct access to skilled job placement benefits no one. Making it harder for families to send their children to college here in the US by forcing a downward pressure on wages, refusing to assist the unemployed in obtaining and upgrading skills, reducing financial aid programs available to students and funding degree programs that have become obsolete in the employment market is not in the best interest of recovering or growing the economy. Period.

Foreign born students are not eligible for financial aid. They have to pay cash. As colleges and universities see funding for US students cut, they have no choice but to recruit more and more students who can afford to pay for the education on their own...and that means fewer Americans able to attend. For example, more people in the public employee unions have college degrees than in the private sector. As the pressure to disband unions and eliminate union employees builds and becomes reality, it means turning the probability that children of college educated parents will also attend college into an unlikelihood when they are unable to pay and the financial aid that would make it possible is cut.

There is no reconciliation between the double speak of the immigration dialogue when low end workers are villified and high end workers are given the advantage intentionally. These foreign students are not exclusively from wealthy families. They come from all walks of life. Families, villages, towns and even countries help these students meet the expense of an American education. We need to do the same. We need the degree programs updated, we need the elementary and secondary curriculum to incorporate the necessary science, math and technology to allow our students to compete on a level playing field. We need our displaced workers able to upgrade their skillset to become employable again. Part of that involves the infrastructure of our schools and part of it is hiring in the teachers that can get the job done. It is not an issue individual to the student. They are our teachers, doctors, engineers and future "job creators". There are no part-time jobs that will allow a person to be a successful full-time student and walk away with their degree in-hand and education expenses paid in full. That was the point of that student's sign. Foreign students are not ALLOWED to work while in school. Their support network has to provide. I find it distasteful and appalling that the dialogue insists that American students should have no support network to ensure their success.

Be careful what you ask for.

Madison,

Apparently your history book only goes back as far as the 1960's. Eisenhower seemed to golf almost weekly, had a small golf course built on his Gettysburg farm, and went golfing even before going back to work after his heart attack.

And can we discuss Ron Reagan's California ranch visits, or GW's "brush clearing"? America invest a lot in our Presidents. And part of our investment is to keep them physically fit and exercised, as well as rested. A sound mind in a sound body.

Perhaps what we are really hearing is the old prejudice that golf is a rich man's sport, country club sport. I don't hear you complaining about President Obama's basketball games. What is the difference?

It the debates Rick Perry almost hit the nail on the head regarding Romney. Unfortunately, Rick got muddled and befuddled in saying that Romney was first for some thing (abortion) before he was against it, etc, etc. and the DNC ad is pretty much confirming what Perry had on his mind (sic).

Louie Bee. I remember that debate. Perry had a great point but as you said botched it with an almost incoherent statement.

Jody---great post. Sorry about your Chargers.

I think there is ONE thing that Romney believes in----he wants to be President. Everything else stems from that. Why else would he tell his contractor not to hire illegals because he was running for President and how would it look?

I understand that all politicians are ambitious in ways that the rest of us aren't but Mitt seems to go beyond that in that he gives the impression that he will say or do anything to get elected.

Steeler -- the corollary to your statement is that if it is SO important for him to be President, WHY? What is it about that specific office that would entice a "non-politician" to have a go at it? Patriotism? (Is that the only time he has shown an interest in patriotism)? Family destiny (because his father ran -- at 64, is Gov. Romney still chasing a ghost)? Mormon imperatives (to fulfill some of Joseph Smith's predictions)? Egotism? (He's the best guy for the job?? -- how does he justify this with regard to foreign policy or an understanding of the Constitution)?

SF, I'm just happy we put up a relatively respectable defense last night. Although now we have to go face Feisty in the house of pain,...

Good grief, I don't normally say this; but I wish this football season was over (strictly as a chiefs fan, speaking).

oh well, this too shall pass - just not our quarterback. buhdumpbump! I'll be here all week, try the veal.

Steeler Fan: I think there is ONE thing that Romney believes in----he wants to be President. Everything else stems from that. Why else would he tell his contractor not to hire illegals because he was running for President and how would it look?

kate 188(numbers): Steeler -- the corollary to your statement is that if it is SO important for him to be President, WHY? What is it about that specific office that would entice a "non-politician" to have a go at it?

Steeler Fan, I gotta agree with Kate (numbers). WHY is it THAT important for 'the human weather vane' to be President? For someone to want the office that badly - as he HAS been running for the Presidency for over 6 years now - what ulterior motive does this man have and why is he still 'viable' when no one really wants him?

In the current economic environment, they are looking at his incredible record and experience at running Bain Capitol as a model of what he could accomplish as president. I view it as a false hope, the federal government does not operate like a business.

Mitt's record as a job creator speaks for itself. Establish a holding company to rehabilitate troubled firms by cannibalizing them, laying off staff, and offshoring production. Mitt as President might well look like some state governors, paying private corporate contractors to do state work, at a profit, often by delivering shoddy or ineffective product or service. The experiment in privatising state children's and family welfare here in Indiana was such a failure that Gov. Mitch Daniels fired the contractor and put the program back into the state and counties hands. BTW, the biggest part of this program was collecting and paying child support -- not tax-payer money.

For those folks who deride the OWS for their scruffy looks, I wonder what they would have to say about Sunday's fare. First it was an unshaven Grover on Meet the Press, then there were quite a few long haired athletes appearing in the football games on TV.

djj, nicely said. Grover owns the GOP despite the GOP's claims that he's just a guy. Between the 60 Minutes and MTP interviews, I think most voters would like nothing better than to see anyone who signed his Pledge tear it up and burn it in mass protest.

Louie Bee, I'll take "scruffy" over people running around in 3-corner hats with tea bags stapled to their clothing.

Grover Norquist is another of the Harvard "elites" the the GOP likes to trash -- Harvard undergraduate and MBA degrees, had White House jobs (including one with Oliver North and the Iran-Contra mess).

@Louie Bee

Isn't it amazing that those who decry OWS as lazy, hippie, rapist, druggy, rioting anarchists simply turn a blind eye to the mobbing Black Friday shoppers. Hundreds injured, a few dead, but hey, that was all in the name of capitalism-consumerism. I guess it is okay for the masses to assemble, beat and pepper spray each other, walk over the dying to get the best deal. But to peacefully demonstrate against the crimes of Wall Street is a no-no. Sad indeed!!

Hey, Nash! Glad to see you. Hope you enjoyed a lovely holiday weekend with family and friends. We have missed you around these parts!

Hope you & your family enjoyed your Thanksgiving Nash!

I love that new promo with Rev. Al & blueberry pie!

I also like the one with Lawrence O'Donnell talking about Boehner & his gang hollering that the gubment doesn't create jobs, when Larry asks WHO created theirs?

In case you didn't know, Spike Lee directs those promotional spots... no wonder they're SO good!

It is good to be seen newDay . . . things in the "real world" have been a bit hectic . . . but I am still lurking when I can . . . I miss you too! :o)

Feisty . . . I had an awesome Thanksgiving . . . hope you did too . . . today is my daughter's 11th birthday . . . so we are gonna keep the party going one more day . . . lol . . . I didn't know that Spike Lee directed the commericals . . . he is doing a good job with them!

Hey Nashville... My relatives in TN, who are FOX afficinadoes deride the government and its social spending and are forgetful of how FDR and his social programs contributed to putting TN on the map. The TVA and the electrification of the state were the impetus to the development of TN. Ike's interstate highways also contributed quite a bit because TN is located where the east-west and north-south traffic contributes much to the state's commercial health.

Make sure to give mini-Nash a big Birthday {{{hug}}} from Auntie Feisty!

PS; Thanksgiving was awesome - thanks for askin!

So true Louie Bee . . . so much of the knee jerk anti-government talk is just not rational . . . all of this talk instantly evaporates as soon as we have massive flooding like we did in Tennessee . . . or the oil spill in the gulf . . . and the list goes on and on.

However, the GOP has done a great job at demonizing the government while simultaneously sucking on the government teat by getting rich off of "private businesses" dependent on government money . . . as in "private prisons" . . . "colleges" that are really just fronts to get government student loan money . . . it really is the ultimate ponsie scheme.

Louie Bee, thanks for pointing that out. Your relatives (and most anti-government southerners) must be pounding the Jack Daniel's to kill all the brain cells required to forget things like this. Of course, pork is federal money paid to OTHER states!!

Nasville..& Auntie... I was watching MSNBC at my daughter's home in TN over Thanksgiving and was informed that they NEVER watch MSNBC. They only watch FOX. So much for their objectivity. I occasionally watch O'Reilly to see if he will say something really idiotic like saying he couldn't explain what caused tides so they must be the acts of the divine. What an ignoramus!

You watch O'Reilly for the same reason train wrecks are so hard to turn away from!

Hey Nashville, which party has the most millionaires in Congress, The Democrats

Hey Dark Guardian . . . how does that observation help to solve a problem?

It doesn't.

What are you proposing to do about it?

"We the people" are the forgotten element in the equation, as our elected "representatives" cash in personally. The question is . . . what is the GOP proposing that helps human people and not just "corporate people"?

When my President proposes solutions, he is blocked by the corporations who are profitting from the status quo . . . and the GOP are the ones who are primarily responsible. . . with a big assist from corporate Democrats no doubt . . . but again . . . what are you proposing we do about it?

Happy Birthday to your lovely daughter, Nash!! She shares a birthday with my father---he is 92 today. He asked me to take him out to dinner on his actual birthday because he doesn't want the people at the assisted living center where he lives to sing Happy Birthday to him!! So we are going for Chinese!

I have always thought that the Republicans were great at getting themselves elected and then stumped when they actually have to govern. That is my issue with Romney---he desperately wants to be President but I'm not sure why.

Awww . . . thanks Steeler Fan . . . Happy Birthday to your dad as well . . . so many special people have November birthdays . . . hope yours was great! :o)

P.S. What a great question . . . why does Romney want to be President . . . maybe somebody will ask him! :o)

Dark Guardian.... The difference between the DEMs and the GOPs is that the DEMs are altruistic and the GOPs are followers of Ayn Rand, the apostle of "greed is good."

Nashville, great post. Rev Al's ad is perfect; we can all relate to his blueberry pie analogy.

Feisty, I did not know Spike Lee directs the MSNBC promo ads but that explains why they are so terrific.

Happy 11th birthday to your daughter, Nashville! Steeler Fan, happy birthday to your father, too!

Louie Bee, you're on a roll today. Good point about TN and the TVA.

Thanks Jody . . . hope all is well with you and yours!

Romney is trying to be like Walker (WI), Snyder (MI), and Kasich (OH), by not stating specifically what he will do except in general terms. If he is elected the folks who elected him will be having voter remorse like they do in WI, MI and OH.

I think you're wrong on that.

During primary season, people who are one hundred per cent behind their candidates will often tell pollsters that they would not even consider voting for an opponent.

Then they do.

Remember the PUMAs? You don't think 98% of them voted for Obama?

Romney has been viewed by most as the candidate that the MSM wants and has been pushing. What I have seen is in the last week or so the MSM are beginning to look at alternatives just in case mittney doesn't get it. They are still ignoring the only candidate that has masses of popular support, and the more they ignore him the more the support grows.

I hope the MSM keeps ignoring him, they are going to ignore him right into the nomination.

Yank - it us pretty clear to me that Grover Norquist's goal is to drive UP the deficit. There is no plan to reduce the deficit. Grover and his group are purposely driving up the debt for something else that will benefit THEM. They know full well that to reduce the deficit they have to raise revenues, and for a person to go on television and declare that 'all tax increases are off the table' is the height of arrogance.

You're kidding, right?

So when are you leaving?

Falstaffsmind, well said. The middle class is the economic engine that drives the economy. If US policies continue to favor 2% of the population while the middle class declines in size and the class of poor increases in size, the country will decline.

Well... get used to it - the decline that is.

Because the marketers who tell the politicians what to say to the masses have hit on a catch-phrase that gets EVERYONE's attention, even the MC and poor, and the message does not even need to be true... you just need to associate this catch-phrase with your opposing statement about whatever policy issue you are opposing:

"JOBS-KILLER!"

Yep, that's the one!

All you need to do to get everyone's attention these days is to say the words, "JOBS-KILLER," with your opposing statement and everybody and their dogs' ears perk up. You now have their attention... so just repeat your statement about whatever policy it is you are opposing and it will forever be associated with... killing jobs.

So get used to it... because this nation is headed toward a new form of feudalism. Let me give you a list and see if you have not heard this...

Unemployment insurance = "jobs killer"
Workers' Compensation = "jobs killer"
Minimum Wage = "jobs killer"
Healthcare Benefits = "jobs killer"
Paid time off = "jobs killer"
Retirement Plans = "jobs killer"

And the funny thing is... even those who depend on those concepts for some sort of decent way of life believe they destroy jobs, when all of those concepts make it possible for a healthy and productive workforce that continually makes productivity improvements. In other words... just the opposite.

Yes, we are returning to a feudal society, because that is what is being marketed to us... and we're buying it!

Eucurbus...Fine post. Great imitation of Pre-Civil War plantation mentalities. Throw scraps at the workers, give a shack to live in and shut them up by telling them all how wonderful you treat them.

Sorry, but business owners whine waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much these days. That's just a smokescreen so no one will figure how getting rid of any taxes, employee benefits or unemployment means more moolah in Mr. Man's Bank account.

Your post omits all of those taxpayer subsidies businesses take from taxpayers who work for a living. Your post also omits the huge Fort Knox full of tax cuts, tax breaks and tax exemptions Business take more than full advantage of.

Eucurbus is also ignoring state givernments giving "Negotiated tax cuts" as incentives to come and do business it their state, or another one would be organizing the state department of revenue to maximize the impact of a business moving away on the businesses tax burden...

The same people who ran their mouths about Clinton's morals and had him impeached are the same hypocrites who now want you to forget Newtie left his first wife while she was undergoing chemotherapy. Tells you all about Republicans when they can mash a presidency over a trifling in the White House and a fib to keep it from wife and daughter...but a man who is out chasing skirts while his wife is suffering from cancer...well that's okay by Republicans. Shows you the trash they are really made from.

ahhh, psst, Ewent.....

it is pretty much all over the internet that Newt's daughter and wife in question, state that she wasn't undergoing cancer treatments, she was having a routine procedure, AND the wife was seeking the divorce which was an amicable one.

Want to stop that Corporate voting privilege? Reinstate McCain-Ferguson. Now there's one no Republican will vote for. In fact, I'd love to see the Dems try this and make bet how fast the GOP will find a way to make it disappear.

The minute McCain-Ferguson was banned by the SC in 2010, it was open season for foreign owned companies in the US to start voting. How many are even legal citizens? Talk about illegal immigration? What the SC did was allow illegal business owners to vote as a corporation. We should have impeach Roberts, a GOP shill as well as Alito for that contribution to the GOP.

I think your day will be complete when you fill your diaper.