Something I don’t understand is that right after a poll was released showing those in favor of repeal of SB 5 by a wide margin Kasich puts out a personal TV ad. This is very risky because if the issue is defeated his supporters will run for cover and he will be left standing alone with his image tied to this defeat.

Then some of the Republican Congressional members are saying that even if this is defeated they will go hard after other cost cutting efforts with new legislation – it never ends as they intend to proceed in their direction without voter support.

Feisty, my 87 year old mother and her senior citizen group are making a day of it tomorrow to vote "NO" on issue 2. They really, really don't like Kasich. And, as I have learned, mother is always right. :)

And, as I have learned, mother is always right. :)

Aint' that the truth!

They really, really don't like Kasich.

I'm hearing that a lot these days! ;o)

Bless your Mom & her friends!

The Union ads here in Ohio are really disgusting.

Victims, victims everywhere!

All saying a yes vote "could" lead to disaster.

They run an ad here on the radio of a guy calling the police because a thief has broken into his house. The 911 person tells him to lock himself in his bedroom and it will be about 45 minutes for police to get there because of Issue #2.

Just pathetic.

Hell, in Detroit, 45 minutes is pretty good.

WCA,

It is no bigger a lie than the ad that says the public
employees make 43% more than ordinary Ohioans.

Or say that they need to give 10% and 15% toward their
health care and pension when more than half already give more than that.

To Spanky:

You asked me to "fire away" and have an "in depth discussion with you about a relevant issue.

Okay.

Lets talk about YOUR racism, bias and prejudice, particularly concerning our President.

To start the discussion off, are YOU prejudiced and/or racist? Do YOU hold with Republican/Teanut/right wing, 1% positions?

(This is not Panmunjom so a simple "yes" or "no" will suffice - don't need nor want deflective questions or RNC planks and talking points as an effort to avoid the question, thank you.)

Please check out the recent article in the Miami newspaper on this topic. Interested in your response. A copy can be found at:

http:/ /www.nationalmemo.com/content/our-blacks-vs-their-blacks

A synopisis says, "Do you think it gives Clarence Thomas a warm, fuzzy
feeling to know he is one of Ann Coulter's blacks? This is how she put it on
Fox "News" while defending Herman Cain against sexual harassment
charges that threatened to engulf his campaign last week. "Liberals,"
she said, detest black conservatives, but the truth is, "our blacks are so
much better than their blacks."

"Our" blacks? Really?

Care to comment and post YOUR personal positon Spanky?

Now if I could only convince my daughter that I am always right....... Although she does agree with me the 5th amendment Rick Scott needs to go.

Well Dennis, those are specific numbers that can be easily disproved then right?

Ought to be easy.

WCA,

Yes. There are several other studies that show the average state employee makes about the same to slightly less that their private sector counterpart.

Well, I am shocked that their is a disparity in several studies. So if I use one study from a reputable source to prove my point, and you use a study from another reputable source to prove your point, WHo's right?

The U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics says that when total compensation is considered, public employees cost $40.40 an hour, compared with $40.68 at private companies with at least 500 workers.

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/insight/2011/11/06/a-confusing-fog-of-claims.html

Not As Stupid as you Think,

I am just curious.

You are obviously calling Ann Coulter a racist by her use of the term "our Blacks." When you imagine racism in every comment, you dilute REAL racism, don't you?

It also comes to mind that if a liberal had said "our Whites" , no one would get offended and they shouldn't because it really does NOT mean anything!

White Collar Auto, no lie has been more despicable than the commercial where an elderly Issue 2 opponent was completely misquoted as an Issue 2 supporter. Speaking of commercials, that's all the Issue 2 supporters have. I've seen three yard signs supporting Issue 2. I've seen hundreds opposing Issue 2. Which tends to reinforce the Quinnipiac poll that says Issue 2's going down in flames!

Leona:

You are obviously calling Ann Coulter a racist

No, leona... those words were printed in the newspaper; they, in fact, are copyrighted. Check out the cited link.

Nice try, but not my words. But, hey - keep picking and trying to create nontroversies. That looks like about all you wingers can pin your hopes on at this point....

Dennis:

Something I don’t understand is that right after a poll was released showing those in favor of repeal of SB 5 by a wide margin Kasich puts out a personal TV ad. This is very risky because if the issue is defeated his supporters will run for cover and he will be left standing alone with his image tied to this defeat.

This is no surprise. Kasich seems to be delusional. He has actually convinced himself that he is doing the right thing.

WCA:

Well, I am shocked that their is a disparity in several studies. So if I use one study from a reputable source to prove my point, and you use a study from another reputable source to prove your point, WHo's right?

I volunteer to break the tie. Forget all this other talk. I'm always right. Or was that left.

I don't know. I get so confused. ;-)

phinephancy:

Now if I could only convince my daughter that I am always right.......

What a coincidence ... me, too. And Rick Scott does, indeed, have to go.

And, as I have learned, mother is always right. :)

Exactly. I'm someone's mother, too.

Good golly, what fun we're having with words today.

phinephancy----I love that your mother and her friends are making sure to vote tomorrow. If they are making a day of it, I'll bet they are going to lunch too!

Dennis and Auntie, Full disclosure. I'm from Michigan, I have been working in Ohio for the last 4 months so I don't have a horse in this race, other than any national effects it may or may not have.

I was simply pointing out the rotten tactic straight out of the Democrat playbook to put fear into the public and create "potential" victims. It is a tactic I despise.

If you have numbers than use them, just as Dennis did. But spare me the melodrama of having to lock yourself in the bedroom because there aren't enough cops.

WCA:

I was simply pointing out the rotten tactic straight out of the Democrat playbook to put fear into the public and create "potential" victims. It is a tactic I despise.

Death panels. Enough said.

Dennis:

Yes. There are several other studies that show the average state employee makes about the same to slightly less that their private sector counterpart.

And that just goes to show you how uneven the playing field has been under collective bargaining. Without it, public workers would be making a lot less.

And will be, in the very near future.

Now on to more important topics. Did anyone besides me see the moon and Venus last night?

WCA,

Several Mayors, from larger cities in Ohio incl Columbus, have said that their financial problems are because of Kasich’s budget and they have an excellent working condition with all the public employee unions, that SB-5 is not needed.

So, Leona, you have NO PROBLEM when you have almost every Conservative Pundit say that White Liberals voted for Obama PRIMARILY out of guilt AND that African Americans voted for Obama just because he's black, OR when Andrew Breitbart stated that African Americans (ME INCLUDED) are "controlling" the GOP/TP to be racist. My "presonal favorite" would have to go to "The Drugster" Rush Limbaugh when he boldly stated that African Americans are teaching their children to hate America.

Hell, some of these "prized gems" came from two people that are seeking the GOP/TP's blessing to run against President Obama:

Michele Bachmann stating that the Founding Fathers fought to abolish slavery AND that slavery had a positive effect on black families.

Herman Cain stating that blacks are too poor to join the GOP/TP, his comments on Muslim Americans and having them serve on his cabinet, his back tracking after being excoriated by The Drugster after criticizing Rick Perry's "family camping site/ranch", and that African Americans are "brainwashed" and "racist" if we do not vote for/support a GOP/TP Candidate.

NASAYT might not want to cross that line of calling Ann Coulter a racist- I, on the other hand, have NO QUALMS in blasting THE ENTIRE GOP/TP for their racist/xenophobic, sexist/misogynistic, religiously intolerant, AND hypocritical views.

And I was pointing out the rotten tactic of Issue 2 supporters lying through their teeth!!

Anna -- The CBO report on Household Income cites that when union jobs disappear so does the equalizing effect on incomes for those in the lower quintiles. The right will only be happy when everyone but them is making $10 an hour.....how else can they conquer the majority but by tyranny. Shouldn't a "free market" dictate wages? One would think...but the powers that be are trying to suppress that aspect of "free markets".

What lies are being told about issue 2? This is what I found on it:

Bargaining: Expands the topics that management can refuse to negotiate with public employees. Those topics include: employee qualifications, work assignments and staffing levels. According to reports, public employees can still bargain for wages and hours.

Strikes: Strikes would be banned, along with a deduction of "an amount equal to twice the employee's daily rate of pay" for each day an employee is considered to be on strike.

Performance pay and sick/vacation leave: Currently, the minimum amount for a teacher to be paid is $17,300. This would be undone by the law, replacing this by implementing a pay by performance provision. Sick leave would be reduced from three weeks a year to two. Vacation leave would be capped to five weeks a year.

Union fees: Public employees would not have to pay union fees if they do not want to be become a union member. This was a condition of employment before Senate Bill 5.

Governing bodies and contract disputes: The governing body of a city, school, or township would have the final say on any contract disputes that initially become unresolved.

Charter schools: Employees of charter schools would not be allowed to collectively bargain. The only exception, according to reports, would be conversion charter schools.

This sounds to me like it's pretty fair.

DCIA--

Shouldn't a "free market" dictate wages? One would think...but the powers that be are trying to suppress that aspect of "free markets".

Indeed. To be truly "free," however, there would have to be equal bargaining power.

Somehow conservatives have succeeded in convincing the weak-minded, like many here on this board, that this means creating the ultimate buyer's "market" where there is a huge surplus of unprotected workers, and consequently, wages are "free" to fall to as far as their corporate paymasters "dictate."

Anna -- Well said!!!

Feisty and all,

5 No votes from my house hold in addition to my 86 year old mother's No vote.

Sounds fair to me: Governing bodies and contract disputes: The governing body of a city, school, or township would have the final say on any contract disputes that initially become unresolved.

Yep, much fairer than our current process of taking unresolved contract disputes to unbiased, non-partial arbitrators who favor neither labor nor management and whose judgments are binding. Yep those city governments will be sure to give labor a fair and impartial consideration over their city managers and Boards of Ed.

This sounds to me like it's pretty fair.

The ability to collectively bargain DOES NOT give unions the ability to run roughshod over negotiations. If contract negotiations come to an absolute impasse, which doesn't happen often, the case is taken to an impartial arbitrator who passes a binding judgement. Neither management nor labor has an advantage, but rather the merits of the case decides who is right or wrong.

Case in point is the last teacher contract negotiation in our district. Those powerful and greedy union teachers had the nerve to accept a wage FREEZE for the duration of the contract, added the equivalent of 12 ADDITIONAL working days to their calendar and INCREASED contributions to both health care and retirements. Hardly what one would call having "unlimited power".

Issue 2 is an attempt to break this model. First it attempts to limit what is eligible for negotiation. Then it says when an impasse is reached, city governments will have the final say. (How often do you think city officials will side with labor over city managers or Board of Eds?) Finally, Issue 2 says that even if the contract is completely unfair, labor doesn't have the right to strike.

Issue 2 was an overreach by this Republican led legislature to simply break unions and hamstring Dems fundraising. Many who reject Issue 2 & SB5 are Republicans. As a matter of fact, in order to get SB5 out of sub-committees, the Republican leadership had to replace 2 Republicans serving on 2 separate committees because they wouldn't vote for the bill.

Govt_Issue

What lies are being told about issue 2?

Issue 2 supporters used a woman who opposed Issue 2 in one of their commercials, thus completely misrepresenting her position. Is that enough of a lie for ya!??

Anna Molly, one must wonder how much business your firm receives from unions and whether you are truly objective in your support. This is all about government workers and not private business so I still dont understand why government workers need to part of a union in the first place. What is it about their specific jobs need union representation? Why do policeman, firemen or your local drivers license bureau employee need to represented by a union? What collective bargaining issue is so paramount to their job success that they need to have it? Why do they need special union protection different than the 90% of private enterprise across the country? In Illinois, no different than teachers, government union employees refuse to allow performance based pay, true merit reviews, allow for promotions for performance versus merit etc. Whooever said that when negotiations come to an impasse it goes to an impartial arbitrator must not know what that really means. Anna, your the lawyer why dont you explain why all that means is that the arbitrator picks the average of the agreements that have been put together in other union jurisdictions which means that the union always wins. To me, its not whether union total pay is equal to or greater than the private sector, I dont even understand why government employees need to be represented by a union. If they are unionized then there needs to be a separation of bargaining from the politicians that are providing the benefits.

Auntie,

I was honestly asking the question. I really didnt have any motivation behind that question. Maybe I worded it wrong. I was literally asking WHAT LIES were being told about it.

Kevin: "I, on the other hand, have NO QUALMS in blasting THE ENTIRE GOP/TP for their racist/xenophobic, sexist/misogynistic, religiously intolerant, AND hypocritical views."

When you "blast the entire GOP", you are using sweeping generalities and I feel sorry for you.

I guess the people who consider themselves Black Republicans are all those things too?

You must be exhausted from carrying all the hate around. Politics is one thing, but hating half the American people is something else.

Kirk:

Anna Molly, one must wonder how much business your firm receives from unions and whether you are truly objective in your support.

None.

But it's exactly like you to think that. You can't possibly believe anyone could disagree with you just because they do. Which is exactly why I tend to disregard what you say.

Anna, your the lawyer why dont you explain why all that means is that the arbitrator picks the average of the agreements that have been put together in other union jurisdictions which means that the union always wins.

I won't because that's not how it works here. Or worked.

Why do they need special union protection different than the 90% of private enterprise across the country?

With private sector wages flat for the past 30 years, while union membership has steadily declined, this question answers itself.

Leona:

I could give LESS THAN A DAMN whether or not you have African Americans, OR ANY OTHER RACE for that matter, join the GOP/TP. However, if they witnessed something at those rallies that was questionable AND DID NOT do anything to raise the alarm, THEN THEY ARE JUST AS CULPABLE!!!

What I find REALLY funny is the fact that I listed FACTUAL EXAMPLES that came from Conservatives, YET you claim that I have hatred in my heart.

Fascinating.

Kevin- You have illustrated your point perfectly. I have to agree that conservatives better examine the pundits that claim to speak for the GOP. They have been saying some extrodinary things. I doubt that all republicans agree with these radical views but a long shadow has been cast over the GOP because of these pundits. The GOP face a real decline because of these mainstream pundits that keep spouting the radical fringe sentiment. The only hope they have is for people like Leona to flattly denounce them. Sadly it has not been happening.

Anna Molly, thats definitely not true. I have been very open to people disagreeing with me and happy to discuss. Its generally you and others that get so worked up and agitated that my experience might be different and you guys always want to discredit me personally rather than discuss the merits of the issue. How many times have you started a post with how could you be so stupid type of line that leads into your post as your desired way of deflecting the substance? And when I call you out on it like this post, my guess is that you will totally ignore it because there is nothing you can say to refute the truth.

As for union arbitration--I would bet thats exactly how it works in Wisconsin. If a city and the local union are at an impasse, what is the process to come to a solution? I would bet that it always is decided in favor of the union isnt it? If not, explain how the process works in Wisconsin.

Again your answer on the need for government unions was a non answer wasnt it? I didnt ask you the need for private sector union membership nor was my question wage related. None of the Kasich proposed union collective bargaining changes impacts wage negotiations nor membership. So again, you failed to provide any basis as to why government employees need to be protected as part of a union?

Trying to use tomorrow as "tea leaves" for 2012 is stretching it a bit far.

if 2010 taught is anything, it's that candidates still matter. Let's put a name and a face to the GOP nominee and start tracking it..."Anybody But Obama" will not be a choice on the ballots next year.

And yet, 2 of the most unpopular governors in the nation are in swing states, and they are both republicans. I am referring to Scott of Florida and Kasich of Ohio.

'if 2010 taught is anything, it's that candidates still matter"

That is a really dumb statement. In 2010, an ideological landslide of historical proportions meant candidates mattered less !

63 GOP House candidates and 6 GOP Senators elected , along with Governors and local officials were all superior candidates than their mostly incumbent Dem opponents?

In my congressional district, an incumbemt Dem Congressman who was media savvy and well spoken, got beaten easily by an awkward GOP candidate.

I think, Bob, that some of the GOP folks elected last time around with the help of the tea party may have a bit harder time. They had the Florida tea party convention over the weekend and not one candidate showed up. Could be some people are tired of the tea party and the incumbents are running scared to the middle. However, some voters will remember and vote them out!

That is a really dumb statement. In 2010, an ideological landslide of historical proportions meant candidates mattered less !

Really?

All I heard approaching last year's election was how the Republicans were going to seize control of the House AND the Senate. Well, the GOP took the House but how about the Senate?

Christine O'Donnell

Linda McMahon

Dino Rossi

Sharron Angle

Carly Fiorina

Ken Buck

All were facing opponents whom we were told were vulnerable. All lost.

Am I wrong?

Bob, I'd say a good idicator will be in Florida - whether Alan Grayson is returned to congress next election.

I don't believe they are very happy with his replacement and feel they made a mistake listening to the GOP sales pitch and half-truths which lead to his defeat. Think they may back track on this one and that will be an idication of a "mandate."

Should they keep his replacement instead, you may have some grounds for your position. Next election will tell.

Bob, sorry to burst your bubble yet again, but...

Obama doesn't need Virginia, North Carolina, or Florida. He only needs the states he already leads in plus the toss up states of CO, MI, NM, OH, PA, WI. Even RealClearPolitics, a Republican website says he leads Romney and any GOP candidate in all those states already. Plus, the economy is getting better, despite the GOP's best efforts to ruin it.

A year from now, the GOP will be lucky to hold onto the House.

Florida, at least South Florida, definitely has buyers remorse (although I didn't vote for him) about Rick Scott. The man has some serious problems. I just wish they put out more of his fraud issues into the campaign and maybe we wouldn't have been stuck with this guy in the first place.

Allen West needs to go too.

Rubio was another Tea-publican that is getting some buyers remorse, he's useless, but we're stuck with him for another 5 years.

.......and let the liberals eat cake!

"You know how Virginians are Bob. A lump of coal in every stocking and their happy"

Glad to see you keep up the old sterotypes of the South. On behalf of myself and the millions of Northern transplants who live here, thanks...we dont want too many more leaving the Northern failed liberal states to come here.

Stay in the liberal paradises of Detroit, Newark and Chicago...Virginia is full of coal mines...

JoAnn - As a resident of Wisconsin I can tell you that Scott Walker was LIKED enough to be elected, so saying someone is not very well liked is kind of empty.

Matt,

If he's so well like, then he has nothing to worry about regarding a recall right?

It's anyone's guess, so my guess is that right, he has nothing to worry about. Now you can guess too. I did say he was liked enough... not a lot or a little or somewhat

I would say he has nothing to worry about regarding a recall since:

A. There has been no viable candidate to run against Walker.

B. The reforms Walker put in place in our state are working.

Amen! Thank you!

why? are people to lazy to pick themselves up and register prior to an election. if you really want to vote it should not be a problem to register in advance. pre registering also helps stem voter fraud besause at allows some time to check the voters out before just allowing them to vote. and everyone should have to have id to vote on election day. just as you need id to drive or cash a check, it should be more important to vote

What changed this year is that instead of mailing all registered voters an application for absentee ballot this year you had to request an application. So if you didn’t know about the change you may have to find a way to get to the voting poll tomorrow.

They also cut off early voting a week sooner than last year.

The other changes won’t take place next year as the changes have been challenged and will be on the ballot in Nov ’12.

Funny thing about Republicans --- 25 years ago they loved early voting and absentee ballot because those voters tended to be strong for Republicans. Today -- they do everything they can to discourage it -- all in the mane of voter fraud of course. But the REAL voter fraud today is not from people voting multiple times but from fraudulent vote counts and voting machine manipulation.

"And on the national level, if you are not happy with the way the government is being run or economic issues are not being address, do not be afraid to vote out the obstructionist"

Thanks Rudy, millions of Americans will gladly vote out the obstructionist President, stuck on failed overspending policies.

Good to see you're with the rest of the country Bob. Yes vote out the obstructionist tea people GOP republicans in 2012 as Bob indicates above.

Charlie - Get up off your knees. You have given evolutionists everywhere the missing link they've been looking for.

Well Matt -- I see you're a typical teatard --- constantly denying reality.

Well Charlie - a typical teatard? Just what is that? Constantly denying reality? I must be! I cannot recall for the life of me any debates between Obama and the GOP in the last few years, let alone a...what? teapublican debate? Is that an NBC thing? Thanks for the lesson on "reality"

Truthteller,

Funny you say "get rid of some of these people" because aren't you the same type person who would support illegal immigration?? I am guessing you are in full support of ILLEGAL immigration ( as Obama is ) .

crickets. LOL

Very well put Miss Leona. Typical liberal hypocrite.

Charles!! What's the matter with you? Don't you know this is a sanctuary forum for our righteous brothers and sisters on the political left? You have now exposed yourself to a broadside of first stones cast by the daily quarry gang that meets here to congratulate each other on their collective profound wisdom. They are so busy building alabaster monuments to each other it surprises me there is an employment problem at all.

Home of the house speaker. still no jobs

You are defending Obama when right now there are 2 investigations going on concerning him. Do you

ignore anything that makes him look bad? Start thinking America and start reading everything you can before you vote. We all need to start voting people not parties. Otherwise we are going to keep sinking. Vote for whom you like but remember, don't complain if things go different that what you want.

Lets see how smaert you really are, post your Maryland and Ohio allegations, I looked them up just so you know.

Oh and here is a retort to your last sentence; While Obama kills our Country just to win, how sad.

VOTE NO OHIO ! Throw your righrtwing radical Governor out while your at it,,he is NOT good for Ohio or the country.

All that ranting SMJ, just to show the world what an ass you are ?

I respect every person's right to their own opinions, thoughts, and views; That being said, SMJ, the fact that you don't like Obama in the least is now well noted. What is also noted now is that you have the intellect of a 3rd grader and you are a bigoted, racist, small minded individual that could do nothing but hurt whatever party or candidate you support every time you open your mouth or type something to get your point across. You are proof that education is severely lacking in this country and that whoever gets into office should make education in our country a top priority!! Have a nice day : )

Actually it is supported by blacks in MS more so than white voters you bigoted little man. A punch in the nose would do you well.