This is beyond a sordid tale.
Senate Republicans are protecting a teeny-tiny percentage (0.2%) of the very wealthiest Americans from supporting American jobs & our economic recovery. We know that they know that we know ~ that 98% of GOP congressionals signed Grover Norquist's pledge never to raise taxes and they couldn't care less. The greedy GOP militia tanks keeps rolling regardless of what the rest of us want.

And there are many well-to-do who agree with paying a little more to create good jobs. GOP has turned a deaf ear there as well.

Last week Senate Republicans refused even to debate creating 400K jobs. The American Jobs Act is a good deal all the way around. But GOP twice said No to creating/protecting jobs for folks who teach our children, Math, Sciences, languages, History, Geography, Art, Music. No to folks who look out for us and keep our communities safe. No to those who rush into burning buildings and save us from injury and death.

These Norquistian R-elected officials and their corporate puppeteers apparently will not stop until we 99%+ are entirely bereft of health care, education, police, Medicare, unions, voting rights, social security, teachers, first responders, environmental protections, a fair minimum wage, any recourse to fight back, or Jobs.

The race to the bottom in our country is well underway on all fronts under the auspices of ALEC, KOCH, Americans For Prosperity, et al.

Herman Cain is now their front man. As our first cardboard cut-out corporate candidate, he is truly anti-working-people of all sorts. Also he's anti-health care and for deregulation of all sorts. Most recently Herman Cain was a 'Prosperity 101 Program' speaker for Americans For Prosperity. And the goal was to intimidate workers into voting the same way as the corporate bosses.

So forget the pizza guy and put him out of your mind. Mr. Cain is bonafide 100% AFP/Koch.
Cain's campaign Manager Mark Block was formerly State Director of the WI Chapter of AFP, spokeswoman Carmichael and economic adviser Lowrie, who came up with the '9-9-9' idea, were both employed by Americans for Prosperity, along with other former and current paid employees of Americans For Prosperity ~ the political arm of Koch Industries.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/post/how-obamas-jobs-policies-would-really-impact-the-rich-hint-not-much/2011/10/24/gIQAVvl3CM_blog.html?wpisrc=nl_wonk
Maddow Show Oct 24/11

Liars and lunatics. Why do we pay them attention? These low-intelligence people are dominating the national debate, and those of us who actually take the time to search out facts are aiding them in their quest to destroy our nation. Every day the liars and lunatics show up. Every day we waste our time showing them to be wrong. Why do we allow them to control the debate?

Here are some examples. The LIE: Democrats forced banks to make bad loans. It was the evil Community Redevelopment Act - CRA - and President Carter and/or President Clinton who did this horrible thing. The TRUTH: CRA was designed ONLY to prevent redlining. It applied ONLY to banks under federal jurisdiction, which were originating fewer than one in four loans. Think about this. Why would the FDIC, which insures these banks, insist that they make bad loans? Only a stupid person could believe such a thing. Hello right wing.

The LIE: President Obama should have been able to pass any legislation he wanted. After all, Democrats held complete control of both the House and the Senate. The TRUTH: At no time, during the Obama Administration, have the Democrats held a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate. Even when a 60-vote majority was a possibility, BOTH Independent Senators would have had to vote with Democrats. That possibility obtained for only eight weeks. The time line has been put up time and again. Only a stupid person denies the black and white evidence. Hello right wing.

The LIE: President Obama cut 500-billion-dollars from Medicare. The TRUTH: Damned right. However, not one cent of that money was related to actual health care. The money that was cut was in overpayments and waste. Only a stupid person who refuses to check and/or refuses to accept facts believes the lie that health care has been cut. Hello right wing.

The LIE: This is a beauty and just starting to make the rounds. There will be no Medicare for those over 72. The TRUTH: Medicare remains what it was. There is no change. Two points: First, you have to believe that the same people who whined so pitifully about the length of the health insurance bill have now actually read the fine print. Secondly, if these insane flat-rate tax proposals of the G.O.P. lunatics do become law, yes, Medicare will die. Only the truly stupid want this to happen. Hello right wing.

The LIE: President Obama promised that if "The Stimulus" passed, unemployment would drop to 8%. The TRUTH: President Obama NEVER said any such thing. The 8% figure comes from a position paper written by two Economists in the Obama Administration. Further, there was a disclaimer - in the same paper - that specifically warned that such predictions were subject to wide fluctuations as a consequence of myriad factors. Only a truly stupid person believes economic predictions are set in concrete. Hello right wing.

Every day, the same liars and lunatics show up here. You know who they are: The guy who tells us he's a lawyer, but has the spelling skills of a fourth-grader and can't tell us enough about his toys. The women who make up quotes to suit their narratives. The ones who end their sentences in question marks and feign interest in your position, yet will NEVER change their mind(s). The ones who can't carry on a discussion without resorting to labels. To hell with them.

We are fighting a pitched battle for the heart and soul of this nation. The moderates, left, right, and center will decide whether we are to proudly wear the mantle that is woven with the Fourth of July, the can-do spirit, the pride of a job well done, and the certainty that tomorrow will be even better than today. These are the people to whom we must present our case. Forget the fools who are the willing cannon fodder of the rich and the super rich. Good-bye right wing.

Well, I see where Obama is either tied, or leading everyone in Ohio today.

Please watch the posts carefully today for all sorts of 'distractive' silliness and nonsense from the gaggle of paid-posters.

They WILL NOT disappoint.....

Obama in 2012.

Welcome back, Louis J, well said. Backhouse and David Walker more great stuff to start the day.

Cain is also a tool for the Koch Brothers. He is backed by them, funded by them and they are his campaign staff, he was their "motivational" speaker. Conservatives complain about President Obama being a community organizer, ignoring that was before he went to law school, yet embrace a guy who goes around charging $25,000 to motivate people.

Jody,

Mr. Cain is all ready to relieve us of our cash via his insulting "9-9-9",

just like the Gov Walker WI who shifted $2.3 Billion in tax breaks to corporations.

DBO, please point out the relevance of a poll from Ohio in October of 2011.

Can't we at least agree that the only poll that matters is a year or so away?

Personally, I'll never understand the polls of "potential" or "generic" candidates.

Aren't you always going to have some percentage of people who say they will only vote for a certain candidadate up to the time that candidate is eliminated?

charging $25,000 to motivate people.

To do WHAT?

Make plastic cheese pizza's?

PS: I agree with Jody - good to see ya Louis! ;o)

David,

Thanks for your accurate, specific observations.

We are seeing momentum from a strategy begun decades ago to bring down the government, put corporations in control and privatize America.

This is not a 'lunatic' strategy so much as a cunningly orchestrated design forwarded & played out by Republican leaders.

So Louis, a successful Black man who disagrees with you is a sell out?

How very "Uncle Tom" liberal of you.

Louis and David, outstanding posts to start the day. Thank you!

White Collar Auto

"DBO, please point out the relevance of a poll from Ohio in October of 2011.

Can't we at least agree that the only poll that matters is a year or so away?"

Sure.

I'll wait.

Accountants for the Welfare State

That would be Democrats, of course. While almost every Republican presidential candidate has proposed significant reforms to the current tax code, the Dems remain wedded to a cumbersome, loophole riddled system that drones on for tens of thousands of pages and millions of lines. Heck, how bad can that code be when it exempts almost half the working population from paying any federal income taxes? Indeed, the biggest flaw in the tax code from the Democrats' perspective is those at the top aren't paying their "fair share." No matter that the top 10% of earners already pay 70% of federal income taxes – a percentage that has been steadily INCREASING since the 1980s. Apparently, that's just not quite fair enough for the Dems.

Polls have been showing that massive majorities think the country is on the wrong track and that we've lost our mojo. A country that has grown and prospered by building on bedrock values such as individual excellence, exceptional achievement and a creative entrepreneurial spirit, now sees itself as being pushed inexorably down the road towards the Europeanization of America. A road where dependency on government benefits trumps individual initiative. A road where that dependency has been enabled and nurtured by a tax code that increasingly takes from the top achievers in our society and gives to those who have achieved less.

This is a road that leads to bankruptcy of the soul as well as the exchequer, and the fear of sinking into this swamp of mediocrity is palpable throughout our land. By taking on the issue of reforming a widely despised tax code, Republicans give expression to this fear and position themselves front and square against any further slide into a European style abyss. That's the broader context in which in which the tax reform debate will be playing out. Even the president alludes to the problem when he says things like: "We have lost our ambition. Our imagination and our willingness to do things that built the Golden Gate Bridge and the Hoover Dam and unleash all the potential in this country." What he doesn't acknowledge is his own key role in bringing about this state of affairs. Republicans will remind voters of that role, and their tax reform proposals will help them do it.

Louis,J........Thanks, so good to see you back!

"Republicans are still reeling,"

Looks like GOP congressionals are Me-Me-Me-Me-ers all the way and ---just forget serving the rest of America.
Now it is all about gaming the system. And for the long term.

Backhouse:

just like the Gov Walker WI who shifted $2.3 Billion in tax breaks to corporations.

For White Collar Auto, who asked the other day whether the $2 billion we spent getting Khaddafi wouldn't have bought a lot of teachers for Wisconsin.

I told you to ask Scott Walker. And there you go. Almost the identical amount spent on tax breaks for corporations.

It might feel better if that money had produced any jobs, but so far, it hasn't. In fact, we seem to be decidedly in the negative since Walker passed those breaks.

And do you know why? It's because teachers and other public workers had to be laid off to pay for them.

Instead of saving teachers' jobs, Walker and the state legislature callously chose to cut them.

But you like tax breaks, WCA, because after all, it's YOUR money.

So don't tell me about saving teachers' jobs. Tell yourself.

Anna Molly,

Yes, I heard unemployment rose 1/2% in WI since Walker shifted those $Billions to wealthy corporations,

and 14,000 more Wisconsin jobs lost since then.

Backhouse:

Yes, I heard unemployment rose 1/2% since Walker shifted those $Billions to wealthy corporations,

and 14,000 more Wisconsin jobs lost since then.

And that's because it doesn't work, Backhouse. I'm still waiting for an example -- just one -- of when it did.

Thanks again for the info.

WCA:

So Louis, a successful Black man who disagrees with you is a sell out?

How very "Uncle Tom" liberal of you.

Well, whatever Louis may think, I don't think Cain is a sellout. I DO, however, think he's unqualified both by experience and temperament.

And his math skills don't appear to be exactly as advertised.

The federal budget is a lot harder than a pizza franchise budget, I guess.

Just wait till he gets to foreign policy.

Great point, Anna Molly. For months Conservatives have been screaming that what is needed is a harsh program of austerity measures, declaring that even Europe sees the benefits of such.

Now economic slowing brought about by these austerity measures has the European economy performing so poorly the continent threatens to drag the rest of the world into a double dip recession.

Meanwhile austerity that has been forced, ranging from massive employment cuts by states to the temporary idling of workers as Republicans refused to reauthorize the FAA have slowed our own economy such that the American economic engine sits near idle.

Anna Molly,

If you live in WI, it must have been incredibly, incredibly frustrating to see Walker's manipulations up close:

Especially when he did not run on union stripping and all the things he has done to hurt what I understand, has been a proven and outstanding education and teacher program in WI.

Backhouse:

it must have been incredibly, incredibly frustrating to see Walker's manipulations up close, when he did not run on union stripping and all the things he has done to hurt what I understand was a proven and outstanding education and teacher program.

Anyone who truly values education is horrified.

Conservatives, on the other hand, are gleeful as they count up their property tax savings. Why, here in my hometown, I hear it's almost $78 per average home this year. Can you imagine? Just think how many chai lattes you can buy with that.

But don't worry too much, conservatives. If your conscience does happen to prick you, you can always turn your back to avoid looking at the deterioration of the schools.

Or, wait ... you already have, haven't you?

I wonder how the conservatives on this blog shamelessly gloat over these bunch of nonentities GOP/TP's parading. Seriously, this field of clowns is beyond my comprehension.

Well AM and Navy, Politifact says you are about half right:

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2011/jul/06/one-wisconsin-now/group-says-gov-scott-walkers-budget-has-tax-breaks/

Pesky details. 10year projections aren't worth the paper they are made up on.

If you live in WI, it must have been incredibly, incredibly frustrating to see Walker's manipulations up close:

Speaking of frustrating... anyone seen this little 'gem' from the cross-eyed badger?

The fight to recallWisconsin Gov. Scott Walker begins November 15, when the 60-day window opens for progressives, Democrats, and other Walker opponents to gather the more than half-million signatures they'll need to trigger a recall election. Conveniently for Walker, a loophole in Wisconsin elections law opens up the same day and spans the same 60-day window. For that two-month period, the state's $10,000 donation limit for individuals giving to gubernatorial candidates is out the window. That's right: Walker can raise unlimited campaign cash for his recall defense as his opponents round up support to recall him.

Bold added for emphasis.

Read the entire story & listen to the audio @: http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/wisconsin-scott-walker-koch-brothers

John B:

Meanwhile austerity that has been forced, ranging from massive employment cuts by states to the temporary idling of workers as Republicans refused to reauthorize the FAA have slowed our own economy such that the American economic engine sits near idle.

I wonder how they think this course will play out, say, 20 years from now.

For a group of people who self-righteously tells others to think of the children, they surely don't.

It's mostly the children who don't have jobs right now, and whose prospects of finding meaningful and lucrative careers have been significantly diminished. How on earth will they ever pay for their own retirements once Social Security joins the list of casualties from our new "austerity."

Navy: I heard unemployment rose 1/2% in WI since Walker shifted those $Billions to wealthy corporations,

See, the problem with "I Heard" around here is that most of you have anyone with a differing opinion on ignore, so you only "hear" what you want to "hear".

SO please spare us the "I heard" or "People I talk to" comments on the state of affairs today.

AM,

Because lots of our schools are 50 years old, some 100 years old, modernizing and rebuilding them is part of the President's AJA (so far failed twice by GOP in the Senate).

Hard to keep up with science if you just have a few mouldy books and a few beakers sitting in the cupboard. And I heard some teachers, besides buying supplies for their children out of their own pockets, teach classes in trailers. Imagine summer/winter temps...

What kind of America is it when hundreds of thousands of teachers have been laid off, while other countries are investing in and importing teachers?

Be sure to stop by the gift shop and pick up a reversible Willard's Waffle House t-shirt

You got any hoodies?

Most robbers prefer hoodies?

AM, did you think, at this point in his candidacy, that Obama was qualified in experience or temperament?

The federal budget is a lot harder than a pizza franchise budget, I guess.

Tell that to Harry Reid, he's the one that seems to be "Budget Challenged"

And BTW the Presidents last budget was defeated 97-0, so yeah I guess it must be hard if the "Smartest guy in the Room" can't figure out how to get a single vote.

I wonder why WCA didn't quote from his link to support his point? Oh, here's why;

The group’s larger point -- that the tax breaks benefit corporations and wealthier residents, rather than average taxpayers -- is generally on target, given that the largest amounts of the tax breaks go to businesses and to individuals with higher incomes.

I don't hear anyone on the Right apologizing that the promised economic benefits never materialized. Maybe that's because economic benefits personalized to the wealthy and corporations were the only real point of the exercise. How that affects the larger society is of no importance.

WCA:

Pesky details. 10year projections aren't worth the paper they are made up on.

I read it. Especially the part at the end that verifies the $2.3 billion in tax breaks.

I don't care about the ideological semantics -- i.e., the labeling part. The only thing they take issue with is labeling the $2.3 billion a "cost to taxpayers," when in reality the money actually stays with taxpayers.

But what the article ignores is that, with those tax breaks, other cuts had to be made to make up the difference.

And that was a DEFINITE "cost to taxpayers." Especially the taxpayers who LOST THEIR JOBS.

Are you really that dense, or do you just play dense on this board?

@ John B:

EXACTLY. Thank you.

Ref. W,

Anna Molly knows what's going in Wisconsin,

and OK to write whatever I want to her.

Wow Am two days in a row calling me stupid.

I'm honored that pointing out the deficiencies in you arguments has gotten me labeled as dense.

Seems lately, you have simply become desperate. Name calling is the last effort for one who has lost the debate.

Make no bones about it. You and the rest of your gang, have lost the economics debate and you know it.

Yesterday I was called "hard" by you and "Stiff" by Bev.

While I do enjoy the entertainment on this board, it hardly "rises" to level of "hard and stiff"

WCA:

SO please spare us the "I heard" or "People I talk to" comments on the state of affairs today.

And you please spare us your condescending ignorance.

Backhouse's number of a half point rise in unemployment is verifiable. Unemployment was 7.4 percent in May, before the budget was passed. It was 7.9 percent in August. In September, it slipped back to 7.8 percent, even though more than 12,000 jobs were lost.

http://dwd.wisconsin.gov/dwd/newsreleases/2011/unemployment/110616_june_state.pdf

http://dwd.wisconsin.gov/dwd/newsreleases/2011/unemployment/110915_august_state.pdf

http://dwd.wisconsin.gov/dwd/newsreleases/2011/unemployment/111020_september_state.pdf

Feel free to look it up. You who are so good with the google.

Yesterday I was called "hard" by you and "Stiff" by Bev.

Not unless you also blog under the name "hardtostarboard." Well, do ya?

Paranoia strikes deep, I guess.

I'm honored that pointing out the deficiencies in you arguments has gotten me labeled as dense.

That's good because you're going to hear a lot of it if you keep up the way you're going.

Today is the first day of the Hindu festival of Diwali, Festival of Lights. This five day festival, in India, celebrates Lord Rama's victory over the demon Ravana--the triumph of good over evil. Oil lamps are lit to guide Lord Rama home safely and swiftly. This festival is about joy, happiness, and peace for all! May we continue to light our lamps against the darkness!

PEACE FOR ALL!

ANALYSIS

The following is my analysis of the current political situation in this country. It is my opinion. I share it with you in hopes you will listen and act accordingly just in case I might be right.

1. The GOP has decided it's Mitt's turn. This is classic GOP mentality. We saw it last cycle with John McCain. It was his turn then. The wannabe's are still going to try and knock him off the ticket, but they are just that, wannabe's. Mitt's the guy.

2. The GOP realizes that the Christian right will never accept Mitt Romney because he is a Mormon. They also realize that the fact he is a Mormon will be a big negative, the elephant in the room, that nobody will mention but will be on the minds of every voter. It is unlikely that Americans are ready to put a Mormon in the White House. The deep thinkers at the GOP are aware of this and it does not matter.

3. Mitt is the win-win candidate for the GOP. If he manages to pull-off an upset. Good. But if he is defeated, as they and I expect, that's even better. They will have a bogeyman in the White House for four more years that they can demonize and courageously obstruct until 2016.

4. 2016. Karl Rove and the GOP are not concerned about 2012. It's a sideshow. It's like professional boxing, it's not "fixed" actually, but the outcome has been "pre-determined" and they are OK with that. They have adopted General Giap's maxim for 2012, "By losing, we win." 2016 is what they are working toward. 2012? meh, no big deal.

5. To achieve their goal they have to cut off the Democrat money flow or at least slow it to a trickle. Ohio, Wisconsin, Oklahoma and every other state with a GOP majority in the State House is seeing direct attacks on traditional Democrat funding sources. Unions, Trial Lawyers and others are under direct assault. Money is the mother's milk of politics and they intend for the Democrat cash cow to run dry. That's why Ohio is so important and why we should be paying close attention to the vote in two weeks and do everything we can to help repeal Senate Bill 5.

2016. That's the year. That's the election cycle Karl and his cronies are planning for. 2016 is when they plan to take back the White House and Congress and KEEP THEM.

2016. That's the year. That's the beginning of the end of America as we know it. So bye-bye Miss American Pie, if we don't start right now to reverse the GOP gains, repeal their obstructive local legislation and find a way to strike down the Citizens United decision.

2016. Yep, it's a Right Wing Conspiracy, there, I said it and it all comes together in November of 2016. We've got five years to unravel the tangled web being woven around us as we speak. Just five short years.

2016 will be here before you know it. Don't waste your time arguing with the ditto-head zombies on this or any other thread. It's pointless and meaningless. We've got to find a way to defeat the GOP in 2016. The alternative is unthinkable.

Obama/Biden 2012

"While I do enjoy the entertainment on this board, it hardly "rises" to level of "hard and stiff""

What a dick.

(ok,ok- I'll go sit in the corner now....)

To expand on Bill's excellent comment-

Obama laments that we have "lost our ambition"- then points to the Golden Gate Bridge, the Hoover Dam, and other achievements of the past to illustrate his point.

Tell me, dear liberals, how on earth such a project could possibly be undertaken today?

Do you honestly believe Henry Flalger could have built the Florida East Coast Railway today? That Mount Rushmore could have been carved? Or, even, that the interstate highway system could have been built?

Environmentalists have a collective nervous breakdown when someone plants the wrong kind of annuals in their back gardens- and you think any of this could be accomplished?

Obama, of the 379 new regulations in July of 2011 alone, with 4000 in the pipeline, does not understand the impact of his decisions- and the lunatic fringe of his own party. That he bemoans a lack of ambition, while championing government interference in ambition, and does not see the connection between the two, is proof positive that those of us who question his intelligence are right to do so.

This predilection for magical thinking on the part of the president is the explanation for polling results for his "jobs" bill. All polls show majorities against it- while simultaneously showing support for its components. Reporters for all major news outlets simply cannot understand it! Perhaps people don't understand what his bill encompasses!

They do- but, quite frankly, NO ONE wants him to have that kind of money.

We saw what happened to the last honeypot, and are unwilling to give him a second. Moreover, business leaders- including those who built major firms in prior recessions- are telling Pbama and democrats exactly what is stopping the economic recovery.

Obama's answer is always the same- it's somebody else's fault I have not succeeded. I made "all the right choices".

I think he really does believe in hoodoos.

Now, rather than blame himself and his over zealous appointees for stifling creativity and ambition, Obama blames Americans for their lack.

We're returning the favor. The electorate blames Obama for the economy- as they should. This economy will not recover while he is president, since the populace has no faith in his abilities.

For the sake of our well being, and that of our children and grandchildren, Obama shelved in 2012.

That was funny DBO....I know you have wanted to say that for some time now.

You're welcome.

Bill -- I think most people regardless of which side of the aisle sit on would agree our tax code is a mess. Below I've posted a link of a comparison chart on the GOP candidates. Not surprising all want to eliminate the capital gains tax. Please explain to me why this is a good thing. What about hedge fund managers and others who earn most if not all of their income from capital gains? Should they get favoritism?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/gop-plans-compared/

I'm all for tax reforms I just hate the flat tax or VAT's. And let's be honest none of the flat tax plans offered are really flat. The plan I most favor is Huntsman's minus the capital gains component. Doesn't mean I support the candidate overall. Yes I'm glad that tax reforms are at least being discussed it benefits everyone.

Good analysis, Skip. I'd like to point out that many serious political observers are questioning if the REAL focus for Republicans in 2012 isn't on taking as much of Congress and the state legislatures as they can manage.

That's the lesson Liberals need to learn. Activists on the Left get annoyed with their inability to get everything now. Conservatives long ago adopted a strategy of getting whatever they can get at any time, wherever they can get it. That's how they've pushed the political world so far to the right in only 30 years. Liberals need to get wise to this and adjust their own tactics accordingly.

David Walker #1.2: Outstanding post, sir

Bear Boy:

DBO's post made me see that I've been a little hard on you today.

I have to get to work now, but I just wanted to say, I'm truly sorry, and have a nice day.

Obama laments that we have "lost our ambition"- then points to the Golden Gate Bridge, the Hoover Dam, and other achievements of the past to illustrate his point.

Tell me, dear liberals, how on earth such a project could possibly be undertaken today?

Do you honestly believe Henry Flalger could have built the Florida East Coast Railway today? That Mount Rushmore could have been carved? Or, even, that the interstate highway system could have been built?

Not in a world dominated by Conservatives, a world in which ALL taxes and ALL government are derided as evil.

Glad to have you on our side.

Do we need another Hoover Dam? Would Obama's environmentalist wing of his party allow us to build one?

Besides, wasn't the original one built just to hold the Allspark Cube?

Seriously though. Do we need another Hoover Dam or a Golden Gate bridge? Innovation for the sake of innovation? Obama is spending cash on windmills, solar panels, electric cars, regardless of whether it is financially feasible. Perhaps instead of investing in companies we can ask NASA to solve it and they can contract the work to the companies who can deliver (like Apollo). That is the difference between loaning money to companies and contracting them to deliver for payment.

On another subject, maybe Obama can buy off all the student loan debtors for votes today. NOT! Crikee, is nothing beneath him. Let's pander over here and pander over there...

Well RA, it would be a nice change of pace if Conservatives would just stop standing in the way and let us repair our crumbling infrastructure.

Or do you not see value in that, either?

Here, by the way, is an example of what is stopping economic growth

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150287/Gov-Regulations-Top-Small-Business-Owners-Problem-List.aspx

Please note that the top concern for small business owners is the cost of complying with government regulation.

Those same regulations that would prevent the building of a Golden Gate Bridger, we're it proposed today. The same regulations that would stop in its tracks the building of the Hoover Dam, or the carving of Mount Rushmore, or any number of projects.

Obama just does not get it.

RA,

Our roads, railways, airports, bridges, ports are in a bad state of deterioration. Our predecessors put those in place for us half a century ago and now they need a lot of work.

Project Rebuild America addresses putting us back to work while rebuilding & modernizing America for our future competitiveness.

We got a 'D' for overall US infrastructure from the American Society of Civil Engineers.

Proposed investments on infrastructure have the full support:

of the Chamber of Commerce (commerce needs good roads & bridges to do business) as well as the AFL-CIO.

Only 1 in 5 business owners says Government regulations but just look at numbers 2 & 3 that rank closely behind #1.

Thanks John B, I appreciate your thoughts and agree with what you say. I just wish our fellow Americans would stop squabbling with the tin-foil hat crowd and start looking for ways to foil Karl's evil plans.

OHIO! Repeal Senate Bill FIVE! That's a good start.

There must be a way to challenge the CITIZENS UNITED decision. I'm not a lawyer, but there must be some way to strike down that miscarriage of justice.

Don't be distracted by the "nattering nabobs of negativity" on this thread and others. Think! Think outside the box. We've only got 5 years. Make them count.

Obama/ Biden 2012

NJNB -- The surveys and charts are indeed interesting. Nice spin. Look further into the results and it tells the whole story.

John -- Sometimes Bill surprises me too. ; )

David -- You speak to truth in your post; an important reminder for posters. Look past the BS and find the truth then argue your position from fact not fiction. We can all learn something from these types of discussions and virtually nothing from those who make up stuff. Once again thanks David! ; )

Q: What was the name of the small business that built the Hoover Dam?

A: It was the federal Bureau of Reclamation. http://hooverdam.travelnevada.com/history.aspx

Next empty Conservative talking point, please. I must admit, though, that I'm impressed by the importance some of our FR Conservatives attach to government infrastructure projects. Now, how 'bout you go tell the GOPTP obstructionists in Congress?

David Walker, post 1.2, outstanding post! Thanks.

John B:

If you haven't gotten the chance, do yourself a favor and read Cadillac Desert. Fantastic book. The dams on the Colorado River are possibly the single greatest factor in the development of the west. (Some might argue, that honor goes to the trans-continental railroad, which also required substantial federal assistance.)

In any case, both Hoover and upriver Glen Canyon Dams are rapidly losing capacity. Sedimentation must be addressed. (By the way, it is on one of the lakes on the Colorado River that alleged lawyer Spanky parks the boat he allegedly owns.) You can't just build, build, build. You have to take care of the assets you own.

My Grandfather was among those workmen who built Hoover Dam, which was completed on Roosevelt's watch. He and the vast majority of the workers who built that incredible structure refused to call it Hoover Dam, opting for Boulder Dam instead.

Not a bad historical point to choose. Today, we can choose the policies of Hoover that brought this country to its knees, or we can go with President Roosevelt's idea that we can restore this nation to greatness.

drive-by-observer

What a dick.

What's that they say...

It takes one to know one?

.

(show me the clown nose, fisty!)

Wow, who peed in the bowl of liberal cornflakes this morning? From the tone of the posts by the liberal left, they must have all been up texting and confirming their morning posts for this topic.

Doesn't it get difficult attempting to place the proper spin on the administration's failures, trying to change a true negative into an untrue positive? How can you guys, and maybe a few of the ladies, look at yourselves in the mirror each morning as you shave?

And Romney is considered the "not scary" candidate. In reply to the opening post above, you are correct the Herman Cain is a Koch plant funded by Americans for Prosperity.

But if you'll excuse for the moment, I'm trying to learn more about the OWS rallies and the use of tear gas, and why...

Great analysis TruePatriot, you're funny. I did laugh on that statement of yours. How can you and your liberal group make this stuff up?

The Bureau of Reclamation also build that little San Luis Canal project that brings water to Southern California. Nobody needs water for drinking or irrigation so I guess another unimportant government project.

Americans First:

You're talking about the Central Valley Project, one of the most fabulous irrigation projects in the history of the world. Indeed that was and is a federal project, which the beneficiaries - mammoth Central Valley corporate farm interests - have not repaid. However, the nation receives top-notch produce and southern Californians their water. Yessssirrrrreeeee. That darned old government just can't do anything right.

Yet another government project that delivers water is the State Water Project, a fantastic water project that was the brainchild of the Governor Jerry Brown's father, the late Governor Edmund G. (Pat) Brown, a very far-sighted Democrat. Darned old government!

There is a truly amazing book on the subject called Battling the Inland Sea. Believe it or not, the Central Valley at one time contained the largest inland lake in the country. The book will also give you some serious insight into the horrors of all the various and sundry districts in California.

The water from the Sierra snowpack is captured in some of the dams. There is no better water on the planet. (If all the people who bad mouth California would get the hell out, I'd go back home in a heart beat.)

David -- Thanks for sharing some of the history behind the Hoover Dam. It certainly is well worth the visit to see it and the ingenuity and scope of that project, remarkable! Awesome, comes to mind and I bet your grandfather had some great stories to tell......

winemaker one of the best posts today on FR "pissing in the bowl of liberal cornflakes" Quite a chuckle...

They do like to present strawman arguments and do try hard to marshall their rhetoric.

Amazing that FR chose the headline that they did and buried the story of how obama is buying student votes with his student loan "executive decision" modifications. Another attempt by obama to claim "shared taxpayer sacrifice".

'american'

Funny since winemaker bungled the original joke; which is, "Who pissed in your Post Toasties?". I know your crowd appreciates a simpler, less reasoned brand of humor.

Republicans - butchering language AND perfectly good jokes

or here's one

Republican's - Socialize the losses, Privatize the Profits (looking at you BP)

They do like to make things up when the facts aren't on their side, though.

I see Obozo's got his team on here posting and voting for each other tonight! Who cares! Polls show the real truth of where America stands with Obozo and it's he might as well be packin' his bags to go join crony Rahm! He's DONE! Romney 2012 and 8 years beyond!!!! OH YEAH!!!

He John B from Des Moines, IA,

Who is stopping the states from fixing their infrastructure? Who is it? States have the right to fix anything within their boundary not on federal land. I see the signs on the side of the roads, this road construction brought to you by federal funds which are tax dollars confiscated from the tax payer and sent back out to the states. Why can't states do that? Oh wait, they do. These are called turnpikes. Ohio has one. Pennsylvania has one. West Virginia has one. Illinoisy has a toll booth every sixteen feet to pay for pot holes caused by OWS libs pissing in the street and going through the freeze-thaw cycle or is that Fisty from Roselle pissing about....whatever, I digress.

Democrats believe the Federal Government should provide for all. Build my road. Build my bridge. Give me a dam. But states can also do just that and since 49 states are required to have a balanced budget you now see why it would be good for our states to manage highway funds instead of those seeking political influence.

I remember when the Federal Government came down on Montana when they raised their speed limit. Feds said, "No more money for you." Montana said, "Who gives a shizzle!"

If you want to have our government print money to build your roads and stick you with the bill then I can see your point. If you would rather not, then you see my point.

Have a wonderful day my fellow American Citizens!

Wow Rational, paid toll roads across the USA. How's that for freedom. You like check points I take it, expensive ones at that. Good bye road trips....can't afford the tolls. Yikes get real.

Wow DCIA,

But you can afford the taxes? Is that it? You know the federal tax on gasoline that is intended for roads and other infrastructure upgrades. The one you pay every time you buy gasoline.

You can afford the inflation too caused by printing money that is lowering the purchasing power of your dollar?

But you cannot afford to pay a toll?

Poor irresponsible you. But here is the cool part. You just made a decision for yourself in your post. You said "Good bye road trips." Well congratulations my little progressive liberal friend you have just made your first decision that did not require the government to think for you.

First off Rational, do not label me. You don't have a clue. But here's the thing. I'm pretty damned responsible with my money and freedom. I'll spend my money on what I please and I like to go where I please. You, you want to control what I think, say, and do with my money. Tough $%&t ain't gonna happen. Trying to control every highway with your little turn pike idea ain't gonna happen either, lol. BTW here is a good article on energy.....you might learn something little girl.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/5-Myths-About-Energy-America-xfool-2362653902.html

Little Girl?

Now you are acting childish. Not worthy of debate. I have no desire to control you. Show me where I wrote that. Show me where I wrote to control how you spend your money.

If you want to do as you please so much then why do you identify with big government progressive liberalism?

I await your childish comeback.

BTW - I work in the Energy field. What would you like to know?

Rational -- When you post something like below and expect a polite response shows your lack of maturity.

Poor irresponsible you. But here is the cool part. You just made a decision for yourself in your post. You said "Good bye road trips." Well congratulations my little progressive liberal friend you have just made your first decision that did not require the government to think for you.

You like toll roads I do not. Simple as that. The state, local, and federal governments already have my tax dollars to repair and fix the infrastructure. It's just the idiots in Congress and elsewhere choose to take those funds and spend them on other things. I call BS.

But you cannot afford to pay a toll?

I would say your above statement is trying to tell me where to spend my money as well as controlling the type of road I drive on. I like the freedom of not having to check in and pay a toll every few hundred miles.

I work in the Energy field.

Well I at least know where your interests lie and your perspective comes from. Congratulations you've been called out.

Who is stopping the states from fixing their infrastructure? Who is it?

The same folks who are stopping just about everything else the government should be doing at ANY level...Conservative Republicans.

A leader of the Iowa Tea Party leader has said his group is urging all 150 state legislators to pledge to oppose a gas tax increase proposal next legislation session,

http://thegazette.com/tag/gas-tax/

Infrastructure is becoming a crisis in America due to the efforts of the GOPTP, even as people and groups ranging from the Farm Bureau to the American Trucking Association (both normally Conservative organizations) are crying out for help;

One day after an advisory panel recommended an increase in the state’s gasoline tax to generate more revenue for critical transportation need, the Iowa Farm Bureau Federation threw its support behind the proposed tax hike.

IFBF President Craig Lang of Brooklyn said Thursday his group was applauding the proposed fuel tax of eight to 10 cents per gallon put forward by the Governor’s Transportation 2020 Citizen Advisory Commission because rural roads make up nearly 90,000 miles of Iowa’s 114,000-mile road system.

“Our roads and bridges have been severely impacted over the years by flooding and neglect, negatively impacting all of Iowa, but especially our rural communities, businesses and farms,” Lang said in a statement.

“Our members believe it’s imperative to repair the roads and bridges to help rural Iowa thrive,” he added. “We believe that an increase in the fuel tax is the fairest way to fund those repairs because it charges people who actually use the roads whether they live in Iowa or are from out of state.”

This isn't a new issue, either;

Three years ago Farm Bureau delegates supported a policy position calling for the fuel tax increase to repair the state’s roads and bridges, Lang noted.

The American Trucking Association has been calling for an increase in fuel taxes much longer than that. The next operative question ought to be why Conservatives so strongly favor toll roads when nearly every interested party is against them? The answer is obvious as it's the answer to EVERY question involving taxation and Republicans...it's heavily regressive;

Toll roads are more regressive than food tax. To charge a toll for the proposed Mountain West Corridor is to charge the west side, from Salt Lake to Lehi, for decongesting I-15. At least the food tax has been equally administered.

Being able to drive where you need to go without paying a fee is one way our society is equal. Once we start saying, "I don't use it, so let them pay for it," our society becomes a little more selfish and a lot less community-minded. Our taxes pay for roads we don't drive on, educate other people's children, pay for libraries and community centers that we might not use, and fund other programs that help particular groups within our community. That's OK, because we all benefit when people have access to education, transportation, cultural arts and wholesome opportunities to interact.

Do we really want a society where you have to have money just to drive on certain roads? The Utah Truckers Association is correct. People do not have enough information about this issue.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/635186635/Toll-roads-are-regressive-tax.html

Big shock...just one more way in which the GOPTP wants to balance the costs of a modern society squarely on the backs of average Americans while making things easier for the rich.

Great response with facts John. I learned something maybe Rational will get rational. ; )

You two don't get it. The states can also tax fuel for their roads. They can use tolls if they are afraid of their constituents. It is not the federal government's job to repair roads. As a resident of my state it is my responsibility to demand my state governement fixes its roads. Notice the signs on the side of the road don't say FED DOT it says ODOT (Ohio), TenDOT (Tennessee) and so on. Notice how each state has their own Department of Transportation?

But oh no, we can't have the states minding their own affairs now can we? Always has to be the Federal government with you Progressive Liberals doesn't it?

You both have been called out.

BTW DCAI, I have noticed that you and your ilk can never take the high road you always have to be the lesser man. When challenged you always sink to name calling. Childish.

Rational -- 99% of the time I take the high road. My posts reflect that. Try reading them. BTW I'm a woman.

States do tax fuel + federal taxes. All states get federal funds for infrastructure. Here is an example that shows that.

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/onh2p10.htm

No RA, YOU don't get it. The same organizations working to prevent proper infrastructure funding at the federal level are working to prevent proper infrastructure funding at the state level...and state legislatures are even more easily manipulated than are members of Congress.

That's why Conservatives are so intent on driving everything down to the state and local level...those are easier to kill than federal action.

DCIA - would have pegged you for a dude the way you post. My apologies but none the less your posts stand as called.

John - I'd say if the Supreme Court rules the HCR law unconstitutional then it is far easier to kill at the federal level than state by state.

States that perform the best will attract the best companies, have people growth, and on and on. Competition is an amazing thing. States Rights is a founding father issue that was a cornerstone to our Constitution. In case you haven't figured it out I don't need Washington to do anything for me other than providing for my "common defence." It is just that simple and the reasons progressives and conservatives disagree.

Peace. Have a wonderful weekend.

LOL, apology accepted.

States Rights is a founding father issue that was a cornerstone to our Constitution.

You're half right. States Rights is a founding father issue that was the cornerstone of the Articles of Confederation. THAT government quickly fell apart and within a few short years was replaced by our current Constitution.

History is pretty cool. You should learn it someplace besides the Glenn Beck Show.

John - if anyone disagrees with you then you always belittle them. Why? Is it because you really are a coward who has no ideas of his own?

I will say this about you sir, you are always consistently belligerent and childish in your retorts.

So federal and states rights issues are completely cleared up for you? There is no possible challenge from a state to overturn a federal law? Really? Need I cite thousands of such rulings by our federal courts?

That said, do you disagree that a state with a business friendly culture (low taxes), a right to work law, an educated and can do work force will perform better economically than a high taxed, labor driven, special interest driven and heavily regulated state? If you disagree then there is something in the water out in Des Moines, perhaps the environmentalists need to stop the phosphates from getting into your water. Or maybe it is the pig manure.

Why do irrational people always feel belittled by facts?

Sad news indeed. Thoughts and prayers for Bev as well as all the family and friends and everyone who loves them.

I am heartbroken for her, Feisty. Prayers to her and her family. I have a candle lit in remembrance.

Prayers and sympathies. Let us know if there's anything we can do. You have but to ask.

Thanks all - having a daughter myself around the same age, this news has 'rocked' me this morning.

I will be in touch with her and let you all know if there's anything she needs from her FR family!

Oh, I m so sad. So sad. My thoughts are with Beverly in Chicago. Thank you for letting us know, Feisty.

That is so sad. Our thoughts and prayers are with Bev and her love ones.

Thanks for sharing, Feisty- I'm sure it was not easy.

Condolences to her and her family.

Beverley,

With love to you and those around you. Best wishes and loving support to you all.

Feisty; Would you please give Beverly a big hug from me should you see her? I, too, have daughters. I can't imagine the pain.

Bev:

By now, I'm sure you know I cannot offer prayers on your behalf. However, please know you have my thoughts and hopes that your fondest memories of your daughter, soon overwhelm the sorrow of today.

In my prayers, Beverly.

What terrible news. I am truely saddened by your loss Beverly. Rest assured that she is in the Lord's hands now, no more pain and suffering.

Feisty -

Please let Beverly know that my thoughts are with her and her family as well at this heartbreaking time. I can't imagine what they're going through, but hope she can feel the love and support we're all sending her way.

Peace, love, and hugs, Bev.....we're here for you.

What sad news. Feisty, please tell Beverly, thoughts and prayers to her and her family and that our hearts reach out to them.

I am heartbroken . . . I am praying for you Beverly.

Beverly--no words can express the pain. Feisty, please let her know--I will keep the prayer wheels turning.

Watching Candidate Cain's new Smoking ad last night reminds me of why I quite smoking years ago. What a disgusting ad.

Then his silly smiling finish reminded me of Chucky Cheese.

Feisty, My heartfelt sympathy for Beverly and her family. She will be in my thoughts and prayers.

Truly heart wrenching. My heart goes out to you Bev and you will be in my prayers as well.

Politics is irrelevant at times like this, you have my deepest sympathies.

My condolences to Beverly. It's hard enough to lose a parent. Losing a child must be much harder.

To Bev, my deepest sympathy and good thoughts that you and your family will find the strength to endure these pain filled days.

Having a daughter I can so feel your pain, last week a good friend lost her 23yr old daughter to cystic fibrosis, her only child. There is little we can say to make it less painful, but know you have a big family here, who care and support you in your great loss.

My heart and prayers go out to you Beverly. God bless you and your family.

Our thoughts and payers are with you Beverly. All the love in the world from the FR gang.

Feisty thanks for letting us know of Bevs' loss.

A loss, especially of a child, can be heart wrentching. My sincere thoughts and prayers to Bev!

My deepest sympathies to Bev and her family. God bless and protect you and yours.

Oh my gosh! Beverly, I don't know if you'll see these comments, but I am so sorry for your loss.

I'm so so sorry Bev, words can not express the heartbreak of the loss of a child, I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

Thought and prayers for Bev and her family in this time of need. Thanks for sharing Feisty.

Bev,

I am truly sorry for your loss.

Please don't tell me you know how I feel,
Unless you have lost your child too,
Please don't tell me my broken heart will heal,
Because that is just not true,
Please don't tell me my daughter is in a better place,
Though it is true, I want her here with me,
Don't tell me someday I'll hear her voice, see her face,
Beyond today I cannot see,
Don?t tell me it is time to move on,
Because I cannot,
Don?t tell me to face the fact she is gone,
Because denial is something I can't stop,
Don't tell me to be thankful for the time I had,
Because I wanted more,
Don't tell me when I am my old self you will be glad,
I'll never be as I was before,
What you can tell me is you will be here for me,
That you will listen when I talk of my child,
You can share with me my precious memories,
You can even cry with me for a while,
And please don't hesitate to say her name,
Because it is something I long to hear everyday,
Friend please realize that I can never be the same,
But if you stand by me, you may like the new person I become someday.

Judi Walker

thetotas:

That was really lovely and brought a tear to my eye. Thanks for posting it.

My deepest sympathies, Beverly

My deepest sympathies to Beverly in Chicago and her family for their loss.

Thanks for the information Feisty.

Bev,

Condolences from the right wingers here as well. May God grant you and your family some peace during this difficult time.

Oh, Sweet Beverly,

Please know your loss is heavy on our hearts. You have but to ask and we will do what we can. We love you, girl!

Very sad. My condolences.

thetotus, what a lovely sentiment, thanks for posting the poem.

Bev,

I am so incredibly sad to hear this. I cannot imagine the pain of losing a child. After hearing this I will be hugging my kids extra hard when I get home from work. My deepest and sincerest sympathies to you Bev and to your family as well.

Thank you ALL (even you thetotas) for the beautiful & heartfelt wishes to Bev - I'm passing them on to her!

I'm positive they will bring her some much needed comfort in the difficult time ahead...

Bev,

I just got word. My deepest condolences to you and your family.

Bev, I am so sorry. I am thinking of you.

Bev, I am so sorry for the loss of your daughter. I will keep your family in my prayers.

Bev, so sorry to hear about your daughter. Hang in there!

There are no words that any of us can offer to comfort you in this tragic time. Just know that the community will be thinking about and or praying for you. I am so sorry to hear about this terrible news.

Peace be with you and your family.

Dearest Bev,

my heartfelt condolences to you and your family. I am crying with you.

People touch our lives and children enrich them. I am so sorry for your loss Bev. You and your family will be in my prayers.

Bev:

I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers as you navigate thru the tragedy of losing a child.

Thanks Feisty, for keeping FR family posted.

Beverly my heart is with you. My son has asthma and we have been to the emergency room more than once. Having been there worrying, I don't think anything could hurt more than losing your child.

Bless you Bev and know that your daughter is safe now. Listen to my brave talk as if I wasn't the one who cried for two weeks over the loss of my favorite cat.

Been there with pets American First. Know the pain. Sorry to hear it.

politics aside - my condolances bev, for it is never easy to lose a loved one.

Bev - my heartfelt condolances for your loss.

My sincere condolences, Beverly. Godspeed to you and your family.

My thoughts and prayers go with you.

Dear Bev,

I am so sorry to hear of your tragic loss. My heart aches for you.

God wraps His arms around those we love as He welcomes them to heaven. God wraps His arms around those who mourn and those our loved ones leave behind.

Keeping you and your family in my thoughts and prayers.

Beverly of Chicago,

My deepest sympathy for you and your family as your grieve the death of your daughter.I pray that those who love you surround you with support and comfort in the days ahead.

Bev,

I'm sorry for your loss, and you are in my family's thoughts and prayers.

I did not hit FR yesterday so it will have to be today that I add my deepest condolences and true sorrow to hear this news about Bev's daughter's passing. Beverly, from one Chicagoan to another, my heart aches for you.

Bev,

I missed FR yesterday too.

My deepest condolences and heart felt sympathy for you and your family.

Rusty

Speaking of the Fleabaggers; how do you and other liberals explain their lack of diversity? Seriously, I have scoured video after video and hundreds of pictures and have barely seen ANY PEOPLE OF COLOR, especially Black people. WHY?

Actually, it doesn't matter. But you people used the Tea Party's supposed "lack of diversity" to accuse them of racism. Shouldn't we do the same now with the Fleabaggers? C'mon OccuCommies. WHERE are the PEOPLE OF COLOR?????

So D123, you don't take issue with the need for reformation of the financial system? Welcome aboard!

Any Wall Streeters caught committing a crime should be tried and sent to prison for a long time.

Now. WHY IS THERE NO DIVERSITY AMONG THE Fleabaggers and OccuDorks? This was VERY important to you people when the Tea Party protests were happening. You all used the LIE that there were no Black folks present, to accuse the Tea Party of being a racist organization. "Diversity" is like a religion to liberals and there IS NO DIVERSITY at the OccuDirtbag rallies.....WHY NOT? and.......Does this mean the Fleabaggers are racist? If not, why not?

You haven't made yourself clear. Do you support calls for financial system reform that have spread from Vatican City to Occupy Wall Street, or do you oppose them? And if you do support reform, how shall we get Republicans to stop blocking that reform, which is both needed and popular with the voters?

Damage: your "scouring" couldn't have been too thorough...obviously you missed the photos out of Oakland, DC and NY --Really...you ought to think about your Limbaugh talking points of the day for a bit before posting....

I've seen diversity at Occupy Wall Street rallies. Take a look at the on line pics and you'll see for yourself.

However, maybe it's just because black people are spending all their time trying to make do in the white man's world that they don't turn out in greater numbers. I haven't seen too many of them at Herman Cain rallies, either. Like me, they're working too hard just to make a life for themselves to be protesting or following frivolous candidates. I support Occupy because I don't have the time to protest myself. Hopefully, they will bring about some real changes in the inequities of income distribution that are ruining this country.

I bet the black people will show up to vote for Obama in November along with me.

Nice try Damage but no go.

Rick Perry is right about Romney keeping his finger up to see which way the political winds are blowing before he decides what his principles are. Now that the repeal of Ohio Gov. Kasich's union busting law seems to have majority support, Romney suddenly decides the states should be left to make such decisions, even though he supported the law back before it became unpopular. If there was a flip-flopping competition in the Olympics, Romney could get the gold medal.

As another Columbus, OH resident, I have to say that the general opinion here in Ohio is split about 50/50 when the general subject of politics and Obama come up. We may have a traditionally "red" tint to our state, yet Ohio is also a barometer for the nation. In all but a few presidential elections, Ohio has always voted for the person who ended up becoming the president. If you can win the hearts of Ohio, then you'll probably win the collective hearts of the nation.

Right now Ohio feels like it's sitting on the fence between both sides. Yes, we have some very public (R) party people from Ohio which have the nation watching them. Yet at the same time, a noticeable portion of Ohio residents are disgusted that these people represent our state to the country. In the end, I feel like we're currently split somewhere down the middle. It's this way in my extended family and it's echoed in the people that I know (both socially and through work).

I know that 2012 will be an interesting year. Ohio is home to both the Tea Party "crazies" and the Occupy Columbus/Cleveland/Cincinnati "crazies". To be honest, I really can't say which side of the line Ohio will eventually end up on. However one way or another, it should be one heck of a show.

Good points, IR. The Neocons were so completely, desperately, and tragically wrong on Iraq it's a complete mystery why anyone listens to them anymore, yet they are still treated as "foreign policy experts" by the MSM. It would be laughable were not the potential consequences of listening to these proven failures so serious.

Excellent post, IR. Many of Romney's foreign policy advisers are neoconservatives drummed out of the government work after Iraq. Romney is just another George W. Bush.

The hope I have is the knowledge that President Obama has the intelligence and the curiosity to hear the neocons words but dismiss their advice as "dumb". He may listen to Petraeus but he also has told him "no".

So, I guess you're not on board with sending troops to Uganda?

Good- neither am I.

In 2003, the joke circulating in neocon-dominated Washington was whether the next U.S. target should be Iran or Syria with the punch-line: “Real men go to Tehran.”

What they meant is that real chickenhawks wanted to send real men and real women to Tehran to kill and to die for crackpot neocon imperial fantasies.

Hard to see where sending troops into Uganda in an advisory capacity is going to devolve into a " war of choice" there Nojo. But if it does then yes. Till then I'll withhold judgment and let the Diplomats do their thing.

Hadn't heard that, Houston. I do remember the entire Conservative Movement rejoicing because freedom would "bloom like wildflowers" throughout the Middle East as we used a quickly-secured Iraq as a jumping-off point to roll through the entire region imposing secular democracy.

Da Noid----it is a pre flip-flop. He's just warming up for the actual flipping.

Folks, this is vintage Romney and you'll see more and more of it the closer he gets to nomination. The guy has no core and never did. Finally, something intelliegent out of Rick Perry's mouth...

Until the moderates of both parties come back, I don't see a chance for much change. The idea of always "playing to the base" to keep power is bad for the country.

Great work Jody, fully backed with facts and numbers. It's hard to argue with facts, though that won't dissuade the Conservative echo chamber.

If you divide those percentages by 30 years, the bottom range saw a .06% wage increase yearly and the middle, 1.23% neither of which likely covered the yearly cost of living increases.

You don't understand what exponential means?

Good lord, I was right. Liberals never took eighth grade arithmetic. Or, if they did, they did not pass. You cannot divide exponential gains that way.

No wonder we're so screwed.

Thanks Jody Iowa for another great post. Keep up the good work.

jody, and yet all the factors leading up to the 2007/2008 recession were all orchestrated by bipartisan supported policies since the great depression. Some may call it "paying for the sins of our fathers"

Please do look in the mirror first to see where the blame really lies. No one is exempt, not even the fools who want to blame only past administrations.

yep, american, that support was SO bipartisan,...One Republican LEFT the party (Jim Jeffords) and they had to pass it with Reconciliation,...

Those were some good ole' days, weren't they? Psst, we're not supposed to bring them up, though.

so clara, it seems that jim jeffords must have had a long political lifespan. Obviously you don't like what you see in the mirror. Must suck to be you.

So true. This Radical Right is loaded with, "absolute idiots."

Who needs to look back? It's pretty clear now the Republican Party is an asylum run by lunatics.

When Pat Robertson claims the GOP is "too extreme", the party has definitely jumped the shark.

The shark fueled by Americans for Prosperty and Freedom Works...and of course Grover!

Yup, the Tea People at this point don't even know what they stand for.....they only know what they stand against, which is President Obama!

Hypocrits!

And listen to the paid tea people GOP republican trolls on FR try to defend those idiots, and their sick policies.

Did anyone catch The Daily Show last night,...he showed some of the crazy, maniacle things Robertson has said and then tied it up neatly with Robertson calling out the current crop of crazies. It was Stewart GOLD, I tell ya'!

Someone should really have Cain talk to Michael Steele to see how that whole 'support' thing works. Michael Steele lasted one term as RNC chair, right? Me thinks this group can't commit to FOUR years,...

“Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes you can do these things. … Their number is negligible and they are stupid.” -Eisenhower

Hmm, sounds like he's referring to the Tea Party and the Republican nominees.

One of the first things our Teapublican governor did, after his election, was to remove a mural from the state Labor Dept because it contained scenes of striking shoe workers in the 1930s. Workers striking for basic rights we take for granted today.

That is the right-wing ideology in full display. It's not about keeping labor costs down, it's about subjugating ordinary individuals to the corporate system. It gives the lie to Tea Party rhetoric about "freedom."

It's all part of the Conservative effort to rewrite history, Amy. Recently one of the Conservative regulars here insisted that peak unionization was roughly 1/3 actual numbers and relocated that peak outside the years when our economic power peaked. If they succeed in this effort unionization will one day be considered a marginal event of little historical importance rather than a critical movement that secured massive improvements in pay, benefits, workplace safety, economic security, and a heretofore unseen rising middle class. If successful in their efforts it will no doubt be considered doubleplusgood in the Newspeak of the Conservative Movement.

True, John B. That is exactly why so many GOP majority states have pushed their anti-union, voter ID laws, restrictions on abortion and birth control, tax cuts for the wealthy and big business, eliminate social security, medicare and unemployment benefits, defund education and deregulate what little is still regulated agendas. I think even the GOP realizes that if they fail to do these things now, they cannot do them at all--they know they cannot fool all the people any longer. This is also why the GOP minority in the Senate obstructed, delayed and denied for 3 years and now the GOP House is doing the same.

Amy, well said; perfect example.

John B:

Skip Nicholson used the correct word yesterday - DIABOLICAL. The right-wing effort - you cannot call these extremists conservative(s) - is to not only wage a war of words, but to deny funding to their opponents, thus eliminating a message to counter their lies.

It is beyond ironic when one considers that the right-wing is busy demonizing unions. They would have us believe that somehow the unions are destroying America. Yet, the brilliant white shirt and wingtip crowd that negotiates with unions from the other side of the bargaining table gets a pass. Not only a pass, but after having been snookered by by the knuckle-dragging union workers, they pay themselves huge salaries and take home huge bonuses. What kind of fools believe this BS? The idiot right-wingers who call themselves Republicans, that's who.

Unions are the the natural shelter for workers who actually produce wealth. The rich and the super rich who continuously skim that wealth are NOT capitalists. If one needs a label for these rapacious plunderers, "thieves" is quite accurate. Do not believe for a moment they are capitalists.

With the money they have ripped from workers, they try to destroy unions, the major monetary voice of the working folk. The Roves's, Limbaugh's, Walker's, Kasich's, Ryan's, and other boot-licking lackeys of the Koch's, the Romney's and their filthy rich ilk will return us to a feudal system.

That is not overstatement, that is not hyperbole. That is the inevitable result of the policies and plans of the extreme right wing. Think about this. It really is a war. It is not too late to fight that war at the ballot box. We must vote and destroy the right-wing threat.

David Walker,

A short while ago I made my first post--ever. After the fact I realized what the gray bar down the left side means. So, here it is again, in its entirety.

David,

I love your clear-thinking, rational posts. Obama should run not only against his opponent in the general election, but against the entire Republican party--the Republicans in Congress specifically. He should remind Americans every day on the campaign trail that the Republicans in Congress took Norquist's pledge never to raise taxes because it is emblematic of the depth of their obstructionism.

In regard to "The guy who tells us he's a lawyer, but has the spelling skills of a fourth-grader": An attorney's stock in trade is a clear, precise use of language. Without it, a lawyer is nothing. This guy begins a sentence with, "Me and the Missus. . . ." My kids learned that was incorrect in the third grade. The problem with people who don't tell the truth is that their every word becomes suspect. As the writer Mary McCarthy said about Lillian Hellman, whose memoir contained numerous falsehoods: "Every word she writes is a lie, including 'and' and 'the'."

@Jack

I know this was late in coming but I just wanted to say that what you said was perfect. Welcome to FR.

Ditto what Dennis Price said!

Welcome to the mud pit! ;o)

Thanks. Glad to be here. I think. . . .

Oops! I just caught my typo...Jack, sorry I referred to you as "David" above.

Because deregulating has almost no impact on jobs creation--it is simply the conservative mantra that regulations kill jobs, they do not. It is deregulation that got us into this mess. One of those GOP bills is to eliminate Dodd/Frank that put some controls back on banks to prevent another meltdown. The devil is in the details of those GOP bills.

I agree with you totally, Jody. I just like to know why the GOP and DEM can't get together and compromise. Both have their points and faults, but neither has a complete plan. I believe the DEM and Obama have compromised before, now it is up to the GOP.

Correct "Jody" GWB and every republican president has gone down the deregulation road and as a result job creation has faltered. GWB was the worse president in terms of job creation since Eisenhower. GWB cut taxes too and to what avail? The republicans stick to what they know and what they know doesn't spur job growth and never has...

By MannyGoldstein at Mon, 2005-12-12 19:39

Bottom Line:

Republicans are supposed to be the party of economic progress. The Republicans may talk a good game, but when it comes down to measuring actual performance - surprise! - the US economy has done substantially better under Democratic presidents than under Republican presidents.

Data:

Let's take a look at how GDP has changed under various presidents. We'll start from Eisenhower, since WWII and its immediate aftermath (under Truman) is likely to wreck some havoc in the data.

President
Average Yearly GDP Increase

Eisenhower
3.0%

Kennedy
4.3%

Johnson
5.2%

Nixon
2.0%

Ford
2.6%

Carter
3.3%

Reagan
3.4%

G.H.W. Bush
2.1%

Clinton
3.7%

G.W. Bush (through 2004)

well mav, why not give us the rest of the story (as in historical events) that occurred during these points in time.

Regardless, bloombergTV earlier this year made the observation that the party (L or R) in power always spent wantonly and usually with abandon. Isn't it time to change? The right now seems to be trying but the left still hasn't gotten the picture. Sad, really.

Phinephancy - I understand the observation. It is interesting that prior to 2009 all presidents learned how to work with congress. In 2009 going forward it seems that the only real change in the political picture was the potus obama.

This is awesome news.

Well then, somebody owes me about $20,000 plus interest.

Just what the hell is "10% of a graduates discretionary income" anyway?

Ten percent of discretionary income is the loophole easily exploited to get away with paying back nothing.

After subtracting rent/mortgage payments, utility costs, credit card payments, food, car payments- what's left is discretionary. So, the borrower rents or buys the most expensive home he or she can afford, runs up the credit cards, hikes up the food bill, and, voila!

You pay literally nothing, because you have literally no discretionary income. Then, 20 years later, the debt is "forgiven".

Which is all good, because, after all, money grows on trees.

No wonder despite the abject failure of this presidency, there are still those who choose to dwell in Obamaland. The plaid skies are so pretty at sunset, the money tress dot the landscape- but the Kumbaya soundtrack is starting to get a little old.

Where in the plan does it say that, NJ?

So No Joe doesn’t know that for several decades the Government has a formula that determines spendable income based on a few basic factors, much like COLA, eliminating any benefit in running up expenditures.

OK John B, you tell me what "10% of discretionary income" as quoted by FR is.

It wasn't my claim, WCA, I'm under no obligation to prove anything. When I make a claim I'll provide back up...and you know that.

So, where is it written that borrowers can avoid obligation to repay simply by inflating their expenses?

So No Joe doesn’t know that for several decades the Government has a formula that determines spendable income based on a few basic factors, much like COLA, eliminating any benefit in running up expenditures.

You'd think the self-appointed economic authority of FR would know that, wouldn't you?

NJNB -- That is a complete crop of crap! First, even if one pays nothing on the loan the interest would still compound. Second, that loan would be in delinquency therefore not eligible for forgiveness after 20 years. And you claim to be an expert in finances????

No Joe's comment is just another fine example of making up facts not in evidence to support what would otherwise be an unfounded position. Pathetic.

sarah-3519311

No Joe's comment is just another fine example of making up facts not in evidence to support what would otherwise be an unfounded position. Pathetic.

It's pretty much the same every day around here. The late Senator Patrick Moynihan once said that people are entitled to their own opinions, but not to their own facts. The ultra-right conservative commentators on this forum seem to think they are entitled to their own facts because conservatives are so very special.

How did you post "via Facebook?"

No thanks...ain't going back to the "mission accomplished" let them eat cake people...

End to the war in Iraq (check)

Two great picks for the US Supreme Court (check)

Bin Laden and Khaddafy out (check)

Didn't let the generals think they run the country (check)

Hold the line against conservatives decimating social security and medicare (check)

Bring the country back from the brink of a depression and begin growth (check)

Include women as part of the US Constitution's right to privacy (check)

Wow copy and paste the same post for several days. I know it is tough to write a different thought everytime you post.

So who do you want?

Romney who has hired bush's old economic advisers. Just look how successful they were. Republicans just can't wait to get back to the good old days of bush. Deregulate and crash we could do it again brought to you by Romney this time.

Cain who doesn't even have a clue about the world. He is only interested in tax cuts for millionaires, you can't expect him to have a knowledge or interest in the world too. Cain shilling for the tobacco companies now that is important to the Cain campaign.

Perry who paid his friends in contracts for their donations. Perry's jobs miracle based on the stimulus that he claimed didn't work. Perry is the one to lead you to the rapture if you are into forcing the end of the earth.

Ron Paul claims to be against the corporations influence and then always votes for them to have more power and wealth.

Too bad the republicans aren't running anybody. It appears all your candidates have names.

For the love of America Obama/Biden 2012 and a blue congress to stop the obstruction. If you pledged to Norquist before America, you need to go.

NEWS FLASH!! A Conservative political donor criticized President Barack Obama!! Film at 11!!

John,

I don't expect a person who is a liberal and not paying taxes to care about the unemployment rate and $15 trillion debt.

Please, though, have some concern for the rest of us tax payers!

1) I pay taxes, thank you very much.

2) I point out EVERY DAY that the Right has nothing in their toolbox to create demand in the economy and thereby employment.

3) Republican adherents to Supply Side economics created our large debt through fiscal mismanagement. http://zfacts.com/p/1170.html

Thank you for your ad hominem attack -- it highlights the emptiness of your position.

Leona, liberals pay taxes just as much as conservatives. There's a whole lot of conservatives in that 47% republicans like to whine about, who don't pay taxes because they don't earn enough and are barely making ends meet. They live is OK, TX, MS, AL, AR, LA and all the other states. There's a lot of rich republicans who don't pay taxes either. But ignorance is bliss for folks like Leona, just repeat what they are told and never check the facts.

"The money powers prey upon the nation in times of peace and against it in times of adversity. It is more despotic than a monarcy, more insolent than autocracy and more selfish than bureaucracy. It denounces as public enemies all who question its methods or throw light upon its crimes...corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money powers of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic is destroyed". Abraham Lincoln.

When the connies talk about small businesses, it makes me laugh. They try to make it sound like they're talking about the Mom & Pop corner grocery store. What a joke.

Hey, Leona- did Home Depot founder Bernie Marcus also say how much more succesfull his stores were, now that people have no money, and demand for Home Depot goods has fallen off?

I like how the conservative villifies lawyers, I hope Anna Molly doesn't see this,...

[Obama has] never really worked a day outside the political or legal area.

Funny how some believe only one set of experiences can drive a thought process. I've never been a drug user or dealer; but I can certainly IMAGINE their business experience isn't germane to 'leading'.

We need smart people who can use critical thinking skills,...not robots who tote the party line about experience, birtherism, or whatever BS is on sale at Faux and Freaks.

Folks:

Leona is a low-intellect troll who brings us the lie that Medicare stops at 72. She is the proprietress of the Drop-Doo Inn.

Leona,

I've tried to tell you to do your research before you post nonsense. You just don't listen...

HOME DEPOT CLAIMS IT CAN REGULATE ITSELF- NO GUMMINT NEEDED (but settles lawsuits)

Home Depot admits that it has been charging customers sales tax on numerous tax-exempt items for at least a year and a half.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/2010/05/10/bc-pstexempt.html

Home Depot mishandles hazardous waste...causes explosion

According to the International Herald Tribune, Home Depot has agreed to pay nearly $10 million in penalties and investigation costs to settle a lawsuit alleging it mishandled hazardous waste from its California stores.

Home Depot came under investigation after a hazardous waste container exploded at a store in Marina Del Ray. Investigators found various chemicals had been mixed inside a 55-gallon drum.

The California Department of Toxic Substances Control found that Home Depot routinely collected hazardous wastes in large containers for offsite disposal.

Home Depot retaliates against employee with whom they settled sex discrimination suit

DENVER - The U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) today announced that Atlanta-based Home Depot, U.S.A., Inc., will pay $84,750 and furnish other relief to settle a retaliation lawsuit brought by the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC).

The EEOC’s lawsuit (Case No. 06-cv-01950-LTB-CBS in U.S. District Court for the District of Colorado) charged that Home Depot fired an employee from its Evergreen, Colo., store in retaliation for her filing a sex discrimination charge with the EEOC in 2004. Home Depot settled that original lawsuit in that year.

http://eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/8-7-09b.cfm

HOME DEPOT VIOLATES WORKPLACE RULES

Home Depot has agreed to pay $25.5 million to settle a lawsuit by California employees who complained they were not allowed to take lunch and rest breaks in violation of state law.

http://www.ajc.com/business/home-depot-settles-california-467783.html

HOME DEPOT CONSTRUCTION WASTE POLLUTES WATER

(Washington, D.C. - Feb. 26, 2008) Home Depot has agreed to pay a $1.3 million penalty and implement a nationwide compliance program to resolve alleged violations of the Clean Water Act, the Justice Department and Environmental Protection Agency announced today. The settlement resolves alleged violations that were discovered at more than 30 construction sites in 28 states where new Home Depot stores were being built.

http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/d0cf6618525a9efb85257359003fb69d/dc44ef6f0eac2662852573fb006ecea2!OpenDocument

HOME DEPOT VIOLATES PRICING GUIDELINES- MISMARKS ITEMS SOLD

Home Depot, the world's largest home-improvement store chain, will pay as much as $500,000 to settle claims that it violated a Michigan law requiring retailers to mark individual prices on goods. Home Depot also agreed to put in place policies at its 45 Michigan stores to make it easier for customers to make sure they are charged the correct prices at the cash register

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/11/business/company-news-home-depot-settles-michigan-challenge-on-item-pricing.html

HOME DEPOT AGREES IT VIOLATES RACE AND GENDER DISCRIMINATION LAWS

Retail giant Home Depot said it will pay out $5.5 million to settle race and gender discrimination claims brought by some of its workers at stores in Colorado

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/882

I'm sure Rick Perry will be there waving his post card of Corporate responsibiltiy in 3,,2,,1,,,,,

David Walker

Folks:

Leona is a low-intellect troll...

or

Clara KCMO

We need smart people who can use critical thinking skills...

or

John B, Des Moines, IA

Thank you for your ad hominem attack -- it highlights the emptiness of your position.

WOW! Leona, you really struck a chord with the libbies on this one! HAHAHAH!

All you did was post a quote from a successful businessman and BLAM! The libbies all start their personal attacks on you!

Ah well, it was to be expected. That is their usual tactic when someone says something they don't like. (or worse yet, something that makes sense. )

Keep fighting the good fight, Leona.

(show me the clown nose, fisty!)

BTW... MkeMike

What does ANY of the mud that you slung on Home Depot have to do with the article that Leona posted?

Do you think that your internet search for mud on Home Depot invalidates the post she made and/or the point that Mr. Marcus was making?

It is quite EASY to find the kind of dirt you dug up. You can find it on ANY company. Which I guess is the point you are trying to make... that big companies are BAD!

That said... I might ask who you work for. Is it a corporation? If so, do you enjoy the paycheck they provide? Do you enjoy the benefits they provide? But wait... Aren't they (by the mere fact that they are a corporation) EVIL? And if so, what kind of a hypocrite does that make you?

Or perhaps you work for a small company... or you are self-employed. Unable to compete with the "Big Dogs". That would explain the resentment and jealousy. Wouldn't it be nice to force those EVIL "Big Dogs" out of business? But then you neighbor would be out of work. What then? Is you little company or private business gonna hire him? Doubtful! But that's OK... you will surely be paying your fair share (as one of the new "rich people") to cover his government handouts!

First, the liberals attack businesses.

Then the liberals attack business for NOT hiring.

I think they spiked the kool aid. lol

umm, SOB,

My comment was directed toward the Republican Presidential candidates,...sorry you got confused, buddy.

Does Leona pay you extra to stroke her ego, too? LOL

MkeMike showed unequivocally in his post 15.9 that President Obama clearly understands the need for regulation. Given the wanton disregard for the law exhibited by Home Depot, is it any wonder that they don't like regulation? For Pete's sake they have no respect for the law. That's why they pay fines.

So Leona tells us of the evils of regulation as expounded by Home Depot's founder. Golly gosh. These saints of home improvement can't be trusted? Holy Hammers, Bats-in-the-belfry-Man! Sick of the Bickering is unable to see a connection.

That is why it is foolish to respond to these trolls. Leona either posts poorly researched information as she did here, or just makes stuff up as she did with her Medicare lie. Really, does anyone believe she or SOB will be swayed by facts?

Knock 'em dead MkeMike, just don't call 'em out by name. Do not feed the trolls.

"Bam Bam"?? And you expect someone to mistake you for an adult?

You may be right, GMJ. The Tea Party has never been more than an astroturf gimmick meant to pull the really hardcore Conservatives on board thinking something new and special was going to happen. Now the TP thinks they've bought the party. Problem is they're too bat-crazy with the John Birch Society/Ayn Rand magic potion to function as a credible political party, and party operatives know it. Now they're struggling to control something which by its nature is not controllable.

History will not look well upon this time when the Republican Party mainstreamed crazy.

When the name calling from the Left begins ( "bat crazy" etc.), they know they are on the LOSING side of the argument.

Sad (for them) but true.

Leona - Way too obvious trolling there. Judges award you 0/10 points.

"Keep the government out of my Medicare" isn't a crazy position?

"Killing Granny" isn't a crazy position?

Austerity at a time when that would destroy the economy isn't a crazy position?

Destroying the credit of the United States of America in a political strong arm maneuver isn't a crazy position?

Believing the President of the United States was actually born in Africa when ALL EVIDENCE shows otherwise isn't crazy?

Thanks for letting me illustrate how bat-crazy the Right really is.

Good points, Grand Moff Joseph. I don't think Perry should be counted out just yet but he has dug a deep hole. Of all the GOP candidates, Ron Paul continues to receive the most campaign donations from Iowa republicans which is interesting considering he doesn't lead the polls. I keep thinking that if Romney wins the nomination, we could see a TP third party challenge.

Perhaps Leona's argument is that it is not BAT shyt crazy,...it's well, you know, Republican Crazy and we should be FAIR about it and call it what it is...

I am CERTAIN she will return the favor in her ad hominem attacks on Liberals, right?

Because President Obama called them out for being greedy about bonuses when their firms and CEOs had failed.

"Wall Street was wrong."

You say that like it was a bad thing.....

Truth again escapes Leona. Wall Street always gives the biggest share of their campaign cash to the candidate they think will win the presidency--it's called hedging their bets. Wall Street also gave large sums to John McCain, just in case.

Wall street was wrong to trust obama!

Who blew half of everyone's 401K in credit default swaps?

Here's a hint...it wasn't President Obama.

Enron, WorldCom, Tyco, Madoff, Credit-Default Swaps, S&P screws up their math by $2T...but, no, let's let Wall Street carry on with business as usual.

Wall street was wrong to trust obama!

As DBO pointed out, is it a bad thing that Wall Street is getting insufficient subservience from the President of the United States?

John,

Now, pay attention. This is not hard.

The point should be that while Obama goes around the country demonizing Wall Street, he is " in THEIR POCKET."

Why would they care, if he's doing everything they want? It would be very helpful in hiding the extent to which Wall Street controls every aspect of our lives.

Conservatives need to figure out which of your narratives you want to run with -- 1) Barack Obama is bought and paid for by Wall Street or 2) Barack Obama is damaging the ability of Wall Street to make money, so they're furious with him.

You can't have both.

John B: "You can't have both."

Obama "can't have both." (that's the point you are missing.)

Go GOP 2012 ! for JOBS JOBS JOBS

Leona,

The only jobs the GOP will create before next Inaugeration Day will be the 60 House seats that they will vacate for the Democrats.

Go GOP 2012 ! for JOBS JOBS JOBS

That was the Republican campaign promise of the 2010 campaign. Hasn't happened yet, why would we believe they'll do anything after the next campaign?

Hopefully you are smarter then you sound and realize that the banks and the hedge fund managers are in fact the root to all of our economic problems. You obviously are in denial and like the wackos on the debate stage,boo the soldiers,cheer executions,root for people w/o insurance to die faster. Your judgement day is coming !!

You are rank and file cowboy.

Blow your horn all you want.

Jack,

I see you have the paralegals number to a T. Thanks for posting,...would love to see more of what you have to say!

Thanks, Clara. "Paralegal"? Somehow I doubt he's that high on the food chain. More like the security guard at the Information desk near the bank of elevators on the ground floor of a high rise filled with professional offices.

Jack, you're AWESOME,...and probably more correct than we'll ever know!

Clara,

Time to display my ignorance. What do the numbers in the little box at the lower right of the posts mean? What about the box with the exclamation point next to it? What do the green stars mean? Thanks.

Okay, your original thread is post #23 on this article. The 4 is the comment number on the thread. If you ever want to share a post with a friend or save it for future reference you can click on it and then RIGHT click it and "Copy Shortcut",...then you just ctrl + v to paste it anywhere else (word document, email body, etc.) It saves the exact URL address for you.

The numbers on the right box are the number of VOTES you have received from Logged In Users. The ! box is what is called the Flag system. It allows you to "Report this item" under a variety of reasons:

No Value, Inflammatory or Advertising

Also from that box you can immediately start "Ignore Author". I usually click on the person's name and go directly to their site to Ignore Them; but either way works.

Once you get five votes - then you get a little Green Star. Web Validation? Who knows,...Personally, I'd love to see them get rid of the flagging system as that is how comments get 'collapsed by community'. We have never figured out the exact formula for collapsing; but we think it is more than five. You will hear us refer to the site as looking like a toxic wasteland somedays when the collapse teams show up enforce.

One other thing you may have figured out; but from your login you can manage your comments and responses to articles you have commented on. The "New" feature shows on comments that weren't there the last time you came to that page. It isn't 100% accurate and the site is flaky somedays showing everything as new all day long. Some of us believes that has to do with our networks and sometimes you can tell when Newsvine is having the problems.

It's a great place to hang out and I've certainly made some life long friends here. I hope you enjoy it as much as I do! Welcome!

Jack, if you click the "up arrow" it will vote for that post. The number inside that box tells you how many votes have been registered for the post. Once you've voted for a post the box will turn gray. A star is given to a post with 5 or more votes, marking it as "high interest."

The exclamation point allows you to report a post to moderators as being of no value, inflammatory, or advertising, or you can add the author to your ignore list. If a post gains enough reports it will collapse that post, and if it's the top of a subthread everything below it. By Newsvine rules that should only happen if the Code Of Honor (COH) has been violated, but some will do it in an attempt to collapse a post with which they disagree. That's when you see complaints about the "collapse cowards." Posts that have been collapsed can be opened by clicking the plus sign on that post.

Great posts today, I hope to see a lot more of you here!

John B & Clara,

Thank you very much for welcoming me to the site. And thank you, too, for the explanations. It's funny, I've been reading these posts for months and never paid any attention to anything but the words (and authors). Today was my first post and suddenly I'm noticing the details. . . .

Jack:

Welcome aboard and thank you for your kind words.

Clara and John B:

Duuuuuuude! I didn't know you could do some of that stuff. I still haven't figured out how you copy quotes. I'm tellin' ya, gettin' old ain't for sissies.

David,

The quote deal is kind of a pain,...so I almost always use my own quotes "..."

But, if you put it in here, add an extra return, then go back to the beginning of the quote and hit the Quotation button next to the italics button above,...it will indent it for you; but like I said, it's a little wonky and doesn't know where to end without a bit of effort. The strikethrough feature is MOST excellent for geniuses sarcastics like myself. Somtimes you have to S-p-e-l-l out the jokes for the righties and this tool really helps them get your point.

There are tons more tips and tricks,...just ask and we'll be glad to help you out!

Jack, I join Clara and JohnB and others in welcoming you to FR, we're glad to have you. Nice post today and hope to see you frequently.

Problem with OWS, there are drugs at these "protest" sites and sometimes crimes are also being committed. "Protesters" have had their lap tops stolen there among other things.

NICE contrast between the Tea Party and the OWS types !

Leona:

I'll bet my bottom dollar there are drugs right there in your medicine cabinet. Oh ye of little government, I trust they are approved by your non-intrusive small government folks, no?

Crimes? If I had more time, I'd be happy to detail the crimes of your heroes like Tom DeLay, stellar family guy David Vitter (No lap tops for him, but lap dances, maybe!), the very manly and pro-family Larry Craig, serial adulterer Newt Gingrich, Duke Cunningham and so many more. Do ya need more contrast?

By gum, you are a first-class troll.