Debbie Downer? At a fundraiser in Vegas yesterday, the president sounded a little more downtrodden than he usually sounds. “That old ‘Hope’ poster is fading. It’s getting dog-eared along the edges there. (Laughter.) But I just want to remind all of you that we never said this was going to be easy. We never said that change was going to happen overnight. The problems that we confront didn’t happen overnight; we weren’t going to solve them overnight. The challenges we face in terms of rebuilding an economy that works for everybody, making sure that once again we have the best education system in the world, making sure that once again anybody out there who has a good idea can go out there and make it, making sure that we’ve got a balanced approach to reducing our deficit and getting our fiscal house in order -- all those things we knew were going to take some time.” He’s said some of these things before, but it was a heavier dose than normal.

_____________________________________________________

What's next??

Does "Yes we can" become "Maybe just wishing real hard isn't gonna work??"

LOL!!!

Motor City Madness:

It seems about 100 busses in Detroit aren’t running, but the drivers are getting paid,

From the Detroit Free Press:

Mayor Dave Bing's office issued a written statement: "The union contract mandates that the city pay the drivers for the work they are signed up for, regardless of whether or not a coach is available," according to mayoral spokesman Dan Lijana.

Drivers as a whole have accumulated more than $2 million in overtime in the last 3 1/2 months.

Hundreds of buses sit idle awaiting repair, so their drivers also sit idle, watching TV, playing cards or chatting with one another until their shifts end or a bus becomes available.

Why are the busses sitting idle and waiting you ask?

Bing's administration blames the delays on unionized mechanics it says are leading a work slowdown to protest job cuts.

Detroit, the Poster Child for 50 years of failed Liberal policies.

*** Debbie Downer? At a fundraiser in Vegas yesterday, the president sounded a little more downtrodden than he usually sounds.

Really? What good thing has Obama had to say lately? The man spends his days trashing the Republicans for his failures, and his nights at fundraisers with the "Middle Class" voters collecting $38,500 from each. Obama couldn't care less about the middle class, except for their votes.

Obama 2012 - "It's not my fault. Really, it isn't."

Look Boss... da plane... da plane...

Why has Slick Ricky's personal fantasy island fall off the map?

The island -- which The Huffington Post discovered is worth more than $3 million -- is not evidence of any wrongdoing, but is an outsized symbol of the fact that Make Us Great Again, Toomey's super PAC, is linked quite closely to the Perry campaign.

Until recently, it was possible to go online and look at rental listings for Parker Island, the 2.68-acre retreat in the southeast corner of the 69-square-mile lake that rented for $18,000 a week when Toomey and Perry were not using it. But within the last month, that website -- parkerisland.com -- has been taken down and now redirects to the state of New Hampshire's website.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/24/perry-backers-island-website-erased_n_1029068.html

Better question would by, why is this grifter soaking TEXAS TAX PAYERS $10K a month to rent a Governors mansion?

Why we can't wait

a. we need jobs

b.we need bridges repaired least we be like India

c. we need roads

d. we need police

c. we need teachers

d. we need fighefigthers

Most of all we need to dismiss the insanity of the GOP Tea-nuts

http://mlk-kpp01.stanford.edu/index.php/encyclopedia/encyclopedia/enc_why_we_cant_wait_1964/

OBama/ BIDEN 2012

These Repug clowns just don't get it do they? It's not about flat taxes or immigration etc. it's about JOBS dummies. Wake up and see what the American people want, not what you want.

PS - Feisty, do you know why they switched TV spots will Big Ed and L. O'Donnell? I liked the way it was.

Obama in 2012.

WCA: It seems about 100 busses in Detroit aren’t running, but the drivers are getting paid,

In Illinois if you're in a union, and work a day as a substitute teacher, you get a full pension!

Source: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-22/news/ct-met-pensions-teacher-perk-20111023_1_state-teachers-pension-fund-teachers-union-public-pension

This money could be used to fix a swaying bridge, fix a pothole filled road, or repair a crumbling school, so I imagine our Liberal friends will be outraged at their Democratic legislators.

Albany Joe:

Does "Yes we can" become "Maybe just wishing real hard isn't gonna work??"

Is that why George W. Bush never caught Osama bin Laden?

LoL

There's a very good reason why President Obama has had far more successes on the foreign policy/military side than he has had on the domestic side.

As Commander in Chief, he doesn't have to put up with John Boehner, Eric Cantor, and Mitch McConnell.

Left to his own devices, the President seems to function fairly well. When trying to work with people who openly announce their intent to block everything he does, not so much.

What's next??

In the business world, obstructionists get fired.

Feisty, do you know why they switched TV spots will Big Ed and L. O'Donnell?

My guess is it's all about the rating Tom!

I agree - it was much better the other way around, I can only take 'Big Ed' in small doses...

Larry on the other hand, having worked on Capital Hill for many years brings a fresh perspective to the conversation.

He's not hard on the *eyes* either! ;o)

CT: These Repug clowns just don't get it do they? It's not about flat taxes or immigration etc. it's about JOBS

So why don't you hire 5-6 people today CT? It's your patriotic duty, correct? You know, if you hire 5 people, that will create another 30 jobs, at least that what Jody, Iowa says, and she's never been wrong.

Let us know how that hiring spree of yours goes for you. And be sure to pay a Living Wage.

Hey AM, He got Bin Laden.

What other successes would you claim at this point?

Be very careful with your answer, now.

JoAnna.

Really? What good thing has Obama had to say lately?

What good has the GOP done lately?

That is who he is criticizing, no?

Why hasn't the GOP put forth ANYTHING to help the economy that independent analysis shows will actually help the economy? Why is it all they put forth are ideological wish lists, or tie what could be good policy to some worthless ideological want?

Why are you blindly defending such a worthless party?

In the business world, obstructionists get fired.

_________________________________________

Nah. Then they get a 1-800-WESUE4U lawyer who will claim the obstructionist suffers from some disability and has been discriminated against under the America's with Disabilities law and try to walk away with a HUGE settlement.

No wonder Shakespeare recommended killing all the lawyers. :~)

White Collar.

Hey AM, He got Bin Laden.

What other successes would you claim at this point?

Be very careful with your answer, now.

His entire foreign policy has been very effective. (And it kills the wingers...)

Lybia was very successful so far with low cost and no U.S. lives lost. Turns out, the policy the right wing called all sorts of names, was spot on.

The administration not only got bin Laden, they are dismantling Al Qaeda.

From the pirate hostages in the very begining of this administration, to ending the War in Iraq, this administration has taken the right to school on foreign policy.

WCA:

What other successes would you claim at this point?

Besides bin Laden? Why does he need any others? It's Obama 1 and Bush a great big ZERO.

In fact, you might say Bush is well into negative territory, especially when you consider Iraq. I find it interesting that Republicans are now criticizing President Obama for following Bush's own plan to get us out of a war we never should have gotten into.

Do you contend, for example, that McCain would have reneged on that plan, notwithstanding that Maliki and the rest of the Iraqi leadership want us out?

On what authority?

Be very careful with your answer, now.

No, you be careful, Auto Boy, especially if you're claiming that we should not be withdrawing from Iraq, while at the same time contending that we had no business going into Libya.

The fact is, as between the President and conservatives, one seems to have a coherent idea of what he's doing with regard to foreign policy, and the other only pretends.

FR: Rather, the 2011 race with the biggest political implications is taking place here in the Buckeye State, where voters two weeks from today will decide the fate of Gov. John Kasich’s (R) law curbing collective-bargaining rights for public-sector workers. It will test, once again, organized labor’s strength in the Midwest (after its mixed results in Wisconsin).

FR is grading on a curve again. And Labors success case for Wisconsin was what? What exactly did they succeed in changing again?

Besides, Labor money is tied up in financing the Occupy-iers. Feeding and keeping those losers entertained and misguided takes a lot of money. Ohio taxpayers have the same choice they did in Wisconsin - Are the state workers responsible for paying for their own benefits and pensions, or are the taxpayers responsible to give up their hard earned cash while the union members do not pay their fair share?

In the business world, obstructionists get fired.

Isn't that the truth Anna! Let's fire them.

FYI -- A plan behind Cain's 9-9-9 plan. A 30% across the board quasi VAT or something like it. The first plan is a temporary one.

do you know why they switched TV spots will Big Ed and L. O'Donnell?

____________________________________

To create the best three hours of comedy on cable TV:

6:00 De Rev. Al's Comedy Hour

7:00 Shemp Mathews Wiffleball

8:00 The Mr. Ed Show (A Talking Horse's A$$)

Tom and Feisty,

I personally think it is to counter the dillutive effect of Olbermann's show,...but that's just my spin. I like both Keith and Lawrence and I was DVR'ing one and watching the other,...now I don't have to.

THIS WILL BE THE STANDARD TEXT OF EVERY OBAMA CAMPAIGN SPEECH FOR THE NEXT YEAR: (Noun) (verb) bin Laden. Blah blah blah blah (noun) (verb) bin Laden. Blah blah blah blah. Some people are rich enough to have private jets....blah blah blah....BY the way, (noun) (verb) bin Laden. Evil corporate rich people....blah blah .......

Cain has already had his 9-9-9 fruit basket reviewed by the Tax Policy Center. It looks like Perry is coming up with his flat tax of 20-20 blurred vision (as well as abolishing Social Security by telling younger Americans they can opt out). Even Romney is pandering to the Fat Cat tax policies he was against before he was for it.

When all this crazy talk is reviewed by experts like the Tax Policy Center, or plans scored by the CBO it is finally proved that these regressive tax plans and other idiocy won't work. I welcome this scrutiny, because then maybe we as a nation can put the flat tax to rest and move on to realistic solutions (though apparently Perry is bringing the Birther fringe back, so maybe there is never an end to the craziness).

Conservatives, you and Teapublicans (GOP/TP leadership and presidential candidates) can support all this extreme chicken crap, and that's fine by me. Because it won't attract votes from moderate Republicans, Independents, and sure as heck won't poach any Democrat votes.

Anna Molly.

I find it interesting that Republicans are now criticizing President Obama for following Bush's own plan to get us out of a war we never should have gotten into

Roger Simon did an article on this today.

Barack Obama gets no credit for protecting nation

Hey, look- Smiff is complaining again this morning.

Thanks Feisty. I tend to agree with you, but I also have trouble with Big Ed at times. I feel that Larry has a far better feeling for politics, plus his work background.

Thanks again.

Now AM, you said "Far more Successes" than Bush.

I would argue that Bush got Saddam while Obama got Bin Laden. No question Bin Laden was a bigger prize.

Iraq is, by all counts a success. Just for fun, I'll give Obama and Bush equal credit on that.

If you are going to count Libya and Egypt as successes, I think you are wrong. All indications, right now are that those may end up worse than what we had to start with.

So "Far more successes"?

You need to choose your words more wisely.

A "Coherent idea of what he is doing" doesn't mean that it is correct.

I'lll call it even with Obama a + for Bin Laden and a - for Egypt and Libya.

I was DVR'ing one and watching the other

Me too Clara - then I gave up on Olbermann because the Current Channel on DirectTV isn't in 'high def'.

The 'fuzziness' drives me crazy! lol

Cant's:

What good has the GOP done lately?

That is who he is criticizing, no?

The Senate also voted on and narrowly rejected, 57-43, a Republican alternative that would have eliminated the 3-percent withholding tax on federal contracts.

Republicans offered the bill, another piece of Obama’s jobs package, to show they are willing to find common ground on some parts of the president’s agenda.

Ten Democrats defected to vote with the Republicans to bring the bill just three votes short of the 60-vote threshold needed to proceed.

Source: http://thehill.com/blogs/floor-action/senate/188969-senate-deals-second-defeat-to-obamas-jobs-plan

Why did the Democrats block the Presidents job bill 'Cants?

And three trade agreements were just signed by Obama, all passed the Congress and were heavily supported by the GOP while the Democrats balked at each. Why did the Democrats nearly derail Obama trade agreements, agreements that will create jobs, while other than the fact the Unions hate them? And why did Obama sign the treaties in private? Probably because if he did so in public, it would have shown that the GOP is willing to work with the President - and that just doesn't fit his narrative these days, now does it?

'Cants: Why hasn't the GOP put forth ANYTHING to help the economy

There are two things that prove you're a liar 'Cants.

Albany Joe:

Nah. Then they get a 1-800-WESUE4U lawyer who will claim the obstructionist suffers from some disability and has been discriminated against under the America's with Disabilities law and try to walk away with a HUGE settlement.

You got that wrong, Joey. Usually, they just invoke the severance provisions in their cushy employment agreements -- you know, the agreements that were signed by the Board of Directors.

Federal courts are pretty hostile to ADA claims these days, anyway.

No wonder Shakespeare recommended killing all the lawyers. :~)

LoL I'm surprised to hear that coming from you. If you recall correctly, the lawyers were thought to be the ones standing in the way of social revolution.

http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/lets-kill-all-lawyers

One would think you, of all people, would want to keep us around.

Joe in Albany

do you know why they switched TV spots will Big Ed and L. O'Donnell?

____________________________________

To create the best three hours of comedy on cable TV:

6:00 De Rev. Al's Comedy Hour

7:00 Shemp Mathews Wiffleball

8:00 The Mr. Ed Show (A Talking Horse's A$$)

Well, Joey, that just shows how dull you are and again begs the question what do you know?

We hear a great deal of talk about the polls reflecting right track/wrong track and how that impacts President Obama. What the media overlooks is why that number may be less reflective of President Obama and more reflective on Congress AND more importantly, what has taken place in GOP majority state legislatures. As First Read noted today, Ohio's vote next month is more important than many others. Connect the dots, what is happening in Ohio, Wisconsin and other states as a result of GOP rule has a great deal to do with Right Track/Wrong Track polls. It isn't just federal government that impacts these numbers.

Listening to the so-called business expert on with Chuck Todd this morning dismiss President Obama's Executive Order to help the foreclosure crisis as only providing help for 800,000 home owners. Considering that Congress is completely dysfunctional lacking political will to do anything, any President's powers are limited because Congress holds the purse strings. So, to the dismissive, smart guy this morning I say this--while 800,000 is not a huge number compared to the number of homeowners in trouble, the 800,000 loans that are refinanced means the world to those 800,000 homeowners. Do not dismiss any effort to help as irrelevant.

FDR tried many different tactics to stimulate the economy and help the American people during the Great Depression. Not every idea worked as planned but he and his staff kept trying to find solutions. That is the history lesson that so many modern day "business experts" seem to ignore--if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. While previous foreclosure stalling efforts have made some impact, it is the banks that are the problem. Guess they would rather own empty homes worth less than their original selling price than use some common sense, refinance loans and keep people out of foreclosure. These are extraordinary times and bending to meet those times calls for thinking outside the box.

*** Team Romney responds: … President Obama and his campaign will continue to try and distract Americans using Romney's own words.

LOL!!!

How can you not be struck by the notion that elections have a flavor of the Grown-Ups vs. the Children? Here we have President Obama honestly telling citizens that he never said solving our problems was going to be easy. How could it be? The economy of the U.S. - as a nation - is more than two centuries old. Policies of 50 years ago are still being played out today. The Reagan attack on government is more apparent today than it was when it began three decades ago. Bringing the ship of state back on course is no small task. The adult in the room - President Obama - is trying desperately to make that clear.

His fellow Democrats aren't exactly helping. They refuse to give Social Security the scrutiny it needs, opting for nothing more than the same old bromides that simply postpone disaster. They refuse to come to grips with an aging population that is going to make ever-increasing demands on Medicare. They are afraid to step forward and demand cuts to the defense budget. Desperately needed banking regulation is shoved into a closet. What were we thinking? Did we really expect courageous action from Democrats who are little more than Republican Lite when it comes to the world of finance. They carry water for Big Money too.

Then we have this incredible spectacle of asylum escapees vying for the Republican Presidential nomination. All of them make a pitch to their base(s) - the low-intellect crowd. Hey, we can fix the problems. Hey, our idea is simple, it's easy, you'll love it. We're going to cut taxes.

Never mind that this approach flatly does not work. Never mind that the net effect of this policy is to continue the REAL agenda: Make the rich richer. Transfer all this nation's wealth to the top one per-cent. EVERY measure shows that is precisely what is happening. NOTHING shows otherwise.

The asylum inmates toss out their shiny objects for the knuckle-dragging mouth-breathers. We won't let 'em take your guns. We won't allow abortion. We won't pay for children after they're born. We will wipe out Social Security. We will kill "Obamacare". We are going to destroy government. Government is your enemy.

It is time to send the children to their rooms. It's time to put an end to Republican tantrums, slamming doors, and pouting. The grown-ups have a serious job to do. As the President has said, this is not easy. It certainly is not going to be easier when the children get in the way.

Clara - Dillutive Effect of Keith Olberman's show? Really?

The Live Feed- Keith Olbermann’s Countdown on Current hit an all-time low last week in the 25-54 demographic. The show pulled in 85,000 viewers in the demo.

From August 11, 2011.

Yeah, those 85,000 viewers are really putting a crimp in the other shows ratings.

WCA:

You need to choose your words more wisely.

No, I don't. I was comparing the President's foreign policy successes, such as I believe they are, to his domestic economy successes.

I wasn't comparing his successes to Bush's. You threw up that red herring.

But since you did, I hardly count Saddam Hussein, at a cost of a trillion dollars and 4,000 lives, as a success in comparison to Moamar Khaddafi, at a cost of a couple billion dollars and no lost American lives. One of these people was directly responsible for the deaths of several hundred Americans, and the other was not.

Again, if you think we had a right to go into Iraq to vanquish Saddam based on Kurdish genocide that was more than 10 years old at the time, then (a) cite the authority, and (b) explain to me why that wasn't the reason we were given in the first place.

If you are going to count Libya and Egypt as successes, I think you are wrong. All indications, right now are that those may end up worse than what we had to start with.

And do you REALLY have some idea that Iraq isn't worse than we found it?

Lord have mercy on your oblivious soul.

WHY OHIO MATTERS

Who do the voters trust to put bread on their table: UNIONS or POLITICIANS? If the voters get the slightest hint that the politicians are "stealing their bread", then good bye politicians.

Anna Molly

There's a very good reason why President Obama has had far more successes on the foreign policy/military side than he has had on the domestic side.

As Commander in Chief, he doesn't have to put up with John Boehner, Eric Cantor, and Mitch McConnell.

Exactly. If the Senate Republicans had the power, they would have filibustered Obama's Libya policy and his mission to take out Bin Laden. Shortly after Obama took office, one House Republican said publicly that Republicans should operate like the Taliban insurgency. Obama's mistake was negotiating with the Republicans as if they had the best interests of the country in mind. He should have negotiated with them as if they were the Taliban.

Jody, Iowa: Listening to the so-called business expert on with Chuck Todd this morning dismiss President Obama's Executive Order to help the foreclosure crisis as only providing help for 800,000 home owners.

And it should be dismissed. Obama is just tinkering with the same HARP program he said would provide relief to millions of people back in 2009. Instead that program was over-hyped, just like all of Obama programs are, and it fell on it's face, just like all of Obama's misguided programs do.

It's just more politics for Obama. He figures if we waves his arms around enough, some low information voters will fall for the same line of bull he put out in 2008.

JoAnna1

My dear, I've already hired hundreds of people in my career. I've started and owned 5 Corporations in my career and employed hundreds of employees.

If you don't have the facts or know the facts about someone, then don't speculate, it only makes you look foolish.

"I am running to tell the lobbyists in Washington that their days of setting the agenda are over. They have not funded my campaign. They won't work in my White House." B 'The Dick' O.

Today's headlines and and story:

In an emailed statement, climate change activist and Keystone XL critic Bill McKibben complained: “I don’t think you could conceive a more elaborate way to disrespect not just the environmental community but also Occupy Wall Street, because this is simply a reminder of the way that corporate lobbyists dominate our politics… Forget ‘Hope and Change’ — it’s like they want their new slogan to be ‘Business as Usual.’ “

October 25 News: Obama Campaign Hires Former Keystone Pipeline Lobbyist

http://thinkprogress.org/romm/2011/10/25/352370/obama-campaign-hires-former-keystone-pipeline-lobbyist-mckibben-slams-move/

President Obama’s reelection campaign has hired a former lobbyist for the controversial Keystone XL oil pipeline as a top adviser.

The campaign said that Broderick Johnson, founder and former principal of the communications firm the Collins Johnson Group, would serve as a senior adviser for the campaign. Before founding the firm this spring, he worked for the powerhouse lobbying firm, Bryan Cave LLP, where his clients included Microsoft, Comcast and TransCanada, the company planning to build the $7-billion pipeline to carry crude from Alberta’s oil sands to the Texas Gulf Coast.

Johnson’s federal lobbyist filings indicate that TransCanada paid Bryan Cave at least $240,000 late last year and early this year for Johnson to work on supporting the “submission for a presidential permit for Keystone XL Pipeline.” He lobbied members of Congress, the filings show, as well as the administration and the State Department.

TransCanada spokesman Terry Cunha denied that Johnson lobbied on behalf of the Keystone project.

An Obama campaign official said that in his new role Johnson would “serve as a national surrogate for the campaign and our representative in meetings with key leaders, communities and organizations. Broderick will be an ear to the ground for the campaign’s political and constituency operations, helping to ensure that there is constant, open communication between the campaign and our supporters around the country.”

JoeAnna:

Why did the Democrats block the Presidents job bill 'Cants?

The GOP blocked the jobs bill. Only an ideolog hell bent on preserving their delusion would say different, when 100% of the GOP caucus in the Senate voted against it, and the House, controlled by the GOP, refused to even bring it up.

As for the piece you mentioned...

Senate Republicans last week offered a bill that would have directed the White House to cut $30 billion in discretionary spending over the next decade to pay for it, mustering 57 votes of support — three shy of the 60 needed to advance in the upper chamber. Mr. Obama earlier in the day had threatened to veto the plan, saying discretionary spending can’t survive any more cuts.

“The bill’s unspecified rescission of $30 billion in appropriated funds would cause serious disruption in a range of services supported by the federal government,” the White House said in its statement of policy

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/oct/23/contractor-tax-withholding-not-a-simple-fix/

(Not to mention, the jobs bill only delayed the implementation, and did not repeal the provision that was passed in 2006.)

Next time do a little research before asking such naive questions.

I hope many Ohioans watch the Debate, but it is unlikely, since it has not been publicized. We need the truth to get out. The Unions have spent tons of money with propaganda commercials and in some cases, outright lies. They have scared the retired Ohioans into thinking they are losing their retirement. They are claiming they will not be able to bargain for things they didn't have the ability to bargain for in the first place. It has gotten ugly. The bottom line, this is an opportunity for the Ohio Taxpayer to have a seat at the bargaining table, something they've not had before, to the misfortune all. Ohio/Kasich is turning around an 8 billion dollar deficit. This is part of the plan to make Ohio a work-friendly state. We've lost so many residents, we are losing 2 House Seats! The 2 greatest reasons we've lost jobs in this state, is high taxes, and the Unions. SB2 is a win-win for all Ohioans and makes Public Employee jobs all have the same %'s for their portion of their benefits. (Among some State workers, they are already contributing the %'s in the bill and have been, SB 2 would make all employees pay the same %, making it fair for the entire group. If we tried to have certain employees contribute less than others, we would be brought up on charges!) Honestly, they still have it much better than the private sector, we pay on average twice what they WILL be paying for our portion of our healthcare and they still have much better retirement benefits. Many of us have no company retirement at all. It is time to stop creating upper class workers on the back of Ohio Taxpayers.

YES TO SB 2!

don't_carry:

FYI -- A plan behind Cain's 9-9-9 plan. A 30% across the board quasi VAT or something like it. The first plan is a temporary one.

Are you kidding me? A 30 percent VAT, in combination with repatriating foreign profits with zero taxation, ought to be plenty of incentive for the last few remaining US manufacturers to move overseas. If not, I suspect there will be some cost-push inflation in our future, irrespective of demand.

Heck, with a 30 percent VAT, GM may even be incented to move its entire US automaking operation overseas, to sell the cars back to America at a lower cost, while paying zero tax on the profits.

Good for GM. Bad for workers.

Repulicants:

Roger Simon did an article on this today.

Thank you for the heads-up. I'll check that out. I never stop being amazed at the hypocrisy of the right.

Talk about the height of hypocrisy. More on Keystone Pipeline and its controversy and Barack "The Dick" Obama's campaign has a former top lobbyist as a top guy??

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/23/keystone-xl-pipeline-opponents_n_1000862.html

A former Keystone pipeline inspector told HuffPost last month that several leaks on the Keystone pipeline can be traced to construction shortcuts. He said he has "no faith" that TransCanada can build a pipeline properly.

HuffPost's Tom Zeller reported that a study by a University of Nebraska-Lincoln engineering professor found that "the worst-case spill scenarios contemplated by TransCanada ... are grossly underestimated -- and that hundreds of rivers, streams and aquifers are vulnerable to toxic oil contamination."

http://www.npr.org/2011/09/01/140117187/for-protesters-keystone-pipeline-is-line-in-tar-sand

A Message To The President

And that's where the White House protests come in.

"We're trying to send a message to Barack Obama and America that we got to get off the dirty energy treadmill, because catastrophe is looming if we don't,"said Jim Sconyers, 67, who came in from West Virginia to take part in the protest.

He had $100 in his pocket, which is the fine he expected to pay once he gets arrested at the highly choreographed sit-in. He said tar sands are much worse for the environment than what we pump out of the ground elsewhere.

"Oh, my God, it's tremendously dirtier," said Sconyers. "The sands themselves are, you know, it's sand, listen to the name — it's not just liquid oil that comes flowing out like in a regular oil well." The tar sands get cooked with natural gas burners to liberate the oil, so producing the oil adds emissions to the atmosphere.

Liz Barratt-Brown, from the Natural Resources Defense Council, was also at the protest. She said that emissions from producing oil for the Keystone XL pipeline would be about the same as building seven new coal-fired power plants.

"When you think about bringing a pipeline in that's the equivalent of seven new plants, I actually think that's quite significant," she said.

Any defense of this from the LWNJs?

I think the article from which this thread was derived is about the election in Ohio and whether the voters will authorize the repeal of their anti-union legislation.

This is more important than many of you imagine, yet somehow we have lost sight of the original topic and we've been diverted to the usual talking points and bickering. Listen to me and learn. Everything we hold dear is at stake.

For several years now we have watched the implementation of one of the most Machiavellian schemes by the Republican party play out across this nation. Diabolical in it's goal, brilliant in it's execution and just another example that the side that has air supremacy is going to win the war. But more on that in a minute.

The Republican party has set out to substantially cut off funding to their rivals the Democrats. In "union states" this is done by passage of right to work laws and the disenfranchising of state and city workers by eliminating their right to collective bargaining.

Unions, historically, have been a major source of cash for the Democrats. Choke off membership in the unions and you cut off the cash supply to Democrat candidates. Simple. Demonize those "union thugs", reduce their membership and you cut off a major source of cash to the Democrat party.

Trial Lawyers are another big source of Democrat cash especially in states where the unions are weak, like Oklahoma. Here, the battle-cry was "Right to Work" and "Tort Reform" and after years of trying our Republican dominated legislature and Governor passed a bill last year limiting the amount an injured party can collect in court. Now it is $350K. Period. Regardless of the injury, medical bills or future physical limitations of the injured party. Three Hundred and Fifty Thousand is all they can collect. The insurance companies and the GOP win. Everybody else loses. The Trial Lawyers were demonized as greedy, money-grubbing, scum. Somewhere, the victims and we the people got lost in the shuffle.

Another source of Democrat cash is severely restricted. Cash, the life-blood of politics, is being slowly but surely dried up for the Democrats.

I could go on and on with example after example but you get the idea. It's diabolical and brilliant and if successful it will mean the end to everything that this country stands for. Nothing less.

Which brings us back to "Air Superiority." If you control the air, you control the battle and you will win. As I have told you before, many times, I have actually run two very successful political campaigns. Even when we were pronounced dead on arrival at the polls, we won. How? Air superiority. We had more TV and radio ads than our opponent. We drowned out their message with our own. Our supporters cried "We want more signs, more billboards, we want the candidate to come to the Panhandle and waste an entire day talking to six people." We said politely, "no" and spent that money on radio (25%) and television (75%) and we won.

The "air superiority" is broadcasting. The Republicans already have a tremendous advantage in this area thanks to the loss of the "Fairness Doctrine" and the rise of Rush Limbaugh and other propagandists like Fox News. They don't want fairness, they don't want a level playing field, they want dominance and they way you get that is to control the air. Every modern general knows that and it's true in politics as well.

All that money the unions and trial lawyers and others could have donated to the Democrats and could have been used to level the playing field by purchasing advertising time, is gone. That cash is drying up and when it's gone so is the American Dream.

So, let's get back on topic shall we? Wake up America. Take our country back while we still can. Ohio is a good beginning, focus on it, pay attention to it, give them your time and your money.

Your liberty and your very country is at stake. Vote "NO" Ohio and bring back Democracy.

Obama/Biden 2012

AM, the entire Middle East is a crap hole. Is Iraq better now than when we got there? According to the people on the ground there, it is.

Look, spin it all you want, the Iraq thing was what it was. Intel said he had WMD's. He had used WMD's before. Congress got the same Intel as the President. Congress voted overwhelmingly to go into Iraq after several UN resolutions were violated. So we went.

The Bush/Iraq thing is so played out it's sad that you all keep wanting to talk about it. (Even though you claim I brought it up)

What, doesn't the "Bush stole the 2000 election from Al Gore" thing work any more?

Maybe you all should resurrect that, too.

One would think you, of all people, would want to keep us around.

______________________________________________

Annie: Maybe in Shakespeare's time, but, not now in the 1-800-WESUE4U days.

Wake up people of Ohio. State union workers are screwing you worse than you could ever imagine. Here in Wisconsin, in my small town, the school district will save $6million, yes $6,000,000 this year simply because public employee unions now contribute to their own health and retirement benies. It was a neat little scam they had set up through their union funded health and retirement plans, that charged the state, the taxpayers way more than the going rate for comparable insurance that could have been purchased in the private sector. Unions are just as if not more crooked than big business. Unions Suck!

JoeAnna.

And three trade agreements were just signed by Obama, all passed the Congress and were heavily supported by the GOP while the Democrats balked at each. Why did the Democrats nearly derail Obama trade agreements, agreements that will create jobs, while other than the fact the Unions hate them? And why did Obama sign the treaties in private? Probably because if he did so in public, it would have shown that the GOP is willing to work with the President - and that just doesn't fit his narrative these days, now does it?

This is a popular talking point. No surprise you parroted it here.

LOL!!!

The trade agreements are one of the few things this congress has actually done. I understand why the GOP is upset they couldn't do more to highlight it.

If I were a member, or blind supporter of the party responsible for a bigger do nothing congress then the original do nothing congress, I may be upset as well.

Houston:

Obama's mistake was negotiating with the Republicans as if they had the best interests of the country in mind. He should have negotiated with them as if they were the Taliban.

Ain't that the truth? People like us said this from Day One. Too bad he wasn't taking his advice from us back then.

Here is link to article on the plan behind the plan. Cain's tax plans.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44991531/ns/business-us_business/#.TqbFjmC0xok

As for why Ed and Lawrence switched time slots, Clara is probably right. My cable doesn't carry Current TV so am unable to watch Keith Olbermann. I do hope MSNBC plans to have Lawrence on Friday evenings as well instead of Lockup--we get enough of that on weekends. Cutting Lawrence to 4 nights would be a big mistake.

JoAnna.

There are two things that prove you're a liar 'Cants.

Like most delusional conservatives, it doesn't take much to prove anything....as long as it is what you are told to believe.

And believing I am a liar is a way to preserve your delusion.

However.....

Could you please post what the GOP has done to help this economy that passes independent analysis?

Why is it that none of the plans they put forth are actually found to create jobs?

Could it be they only put forth ideological wish lists, and label them economic plans? Hmmmmmm...

Everyone on here knows that the Koch Brothers will be beneficiaries if the Obama "I'm A Dick" administration approves the pipeline right? Any comments? Any defense? This would put the POTUS in bed (disgusting image just flashed in my head especially if Michelle was invited) with the nefarious Koch Brothers.

http://my.firedoglake.com/iflizwerequeen/tag/keystone-pipeline/

Albany Joe:

Annie: Maybe in Shakespeare's time, but, not now in the 1-800-WESUE4U days.

My daughter's grandfather, a lawyer himself, in his time, but also an insurance company executive, would probably have agreed with you until about 3 weeks ago, when he and my daughter's grandmother were in a rather serious car accident.

At the moment, I believe he thanks heaven that the guy living next door, who also happens to be his son, is a VERY successful trial lawyer.

You don't know what you've got till it's gone, Joey.

Uh Oh, Hardtostarboard, me thinks you may get a response to that post from an attorney......

Anna 1.8 I could not agree more I have said it myself people notice what the president does as CIC when he and Hiliary do not have to get permission from republicans in Congress to every little thing they need to do. That can't touch him on national security or his performance as CIC. He got the guy that attacked us on their watch, the guy they could not get in 8 years, now the best they can say is we don't like how you got him. Translation- we are damn embarrassed you got him because we could not, and we can't even muster a good job Mr. President, for getting this murderous bastard that killed 3,000 Americans. He has collected other heads as well, all murderous bastards that killed innocent American civilians, the most recent through NATO, which probably saved American soldiers lives, and most definetly saved the US a mountain of cash. That is foreign policy success, but again, even though he got a terrorist we have wanted for decades, and he did it cost effectively in terms of lives and treasure, they can not muster one single good job Mr. President Go USA can they, it's pathetic, it's the opposite of my idea of simple pride and patriotism for your own damn country and the man who is currently elected to represent it. They would have had a ticker tape parade for GW, ha they would have had a fighter jet float, with GW imitating Yosemite Sam in a flight suit. They have no candidate that can challenge him on national security and his performance as CIC, and they don't have anybody of Hilary's caliber either. As MC Hammer might say, You Can't Touch This .

Skippy. Just a few days ago you were claiming it was a right-wing plot that screwed up your "ignore" button. You have also gone on record stating that anyone who criticizes Obama should be jailed for a hate crime. I alsmost wish I lived in Olahoma so I could have witnessed the two campaigns you ran. What were they, dogcatcher? Did you find some nefarious connection between Karl Rove and leash laws? Did you claim that the other candidate discriminates against Dobermans because they're black? Ha! I slay me!

don't_carry:

OMG -- this is even worse than what I THOUGHT you were talking about. This is about as regressive as it gets, especially for those who pay no federal taxes now, and no sales taxes, either.

It’s a straightforward tax on consumption that spares savings, a concept that appeals to economists of various political stripes. It would be imposed as a 30 percent federal retail sales tax that replaces the personal and corporate income taxes as well as the gift, estate, capital gains and payroll taxes.

They have no candidate that can challenge him on national security and his performance as CIC, and they don't have anybody of Hilary's caliber either.

Great post. And this is exactly what scares me. I couldn't imagine what might happen if McCain and Palin were elected. I am scared to death at the thought of ANY of the potential GOP candidates being C-in-C.

"But I just want to remind all of you that we never said this was going to be easy. We never said that change was going to happen overnight."

But you didn't say that after almost 3 years, things would be significantly WORSE either.

We expected you to IMPROVE things, not make them far worse - After all, the 'Great Recession' officially ended almost 30 months ago. Why have you focused on 'health care reform' and 'financial reform' and 'moratoriums on drilling' and more 'regulations' and pushing for failed expensive 'Green Projects' and job killing 'Cap & Trade' and protecting union workers instead of what we really need - JOBS?

Anna -- I agree very regressive!

David Walker -- You are correct. That Perry said his plan would fix everything overnight is the first clue that he's a complete idiot or a liar or both.

hardtostarboard:

It was a neat little scam they had set up through their union funded health and retirement plans, that charged the state, the taxpayers way more than the going rate for comparable insurance that could have been purchased in the private sector.

That WOULD be a neat little trick, if only it were the truth.

In the first place, teacher retirement is a STATE-run plan, with all aspects of the plan determined by the STATE, and not by local school districts. During bargaining that occurred many years ago, school districts largely agreed to pay the teachers' share of their contributions in exchange for smaller wage increases.

It helps to know your history before you go shooting your mouth off.

In the second place, if you're talking about the WEA Insurance Trust health insurance plans, not all districts use them. I know this for a fact. And do you know why, Mr. Hard-to-the-Right-Know-It-All? I suspect you don't. Not all districts use the WEA Trust because it is a negotiated item, and SCHOOL BOARDS -- at least until the law changed -- HAD TO AGREE TO IT before it could be implemented.

If you don't believe me, get a copy of an old contract, and see whose names appear on the signature page on the end.

Now, why would school boards have agreed to that?

After all, no one was holding a gun to their heads. It was Scott Walker who brought concealed carry to our state.

Perhaps administrators recommended the WEA Trust plans to the Board so that administrators could also take advantage of those plans, as well, which are often superior to what is being offered in the private sector.

And, by the way, this is another thing that teachers have negotiated for over the years, in exchange for smaller salary increases.

So you're aiming your ignorant vitriol at the WRONG target.

But why am I not surprised?

Not so much hard-right as hard-headed.

I'm changing my blog moniker to "Priam's daughter."

hardtostarboard.....I told ya.....

Debbie Downer, no way, that was an honest, straightforward assessment from a real person, he can admit they roughed him up some, but he keeps on trying, that's the kind of guy I would like to have a beer with. I think it is a very good half time speech from the head coach, and the perfect evening accompaniment to a day of bashing republicans on the jobs issue. Ha I like this young man so much better than what republicans are offering, he is not going to be so easy to beat as some might think.

Many liberals complain that President Obama should not have tried to work with republicans. Why not? Compromise is what our Founding Fathers believed would create a strong nation. I say cheers to our President for doing his best the first couple years to try to force Congress to function in a less partisan manner. Democrats compromised, republicans stuck their heads in the sand. Sure it was frustrating but it was a campaign promise to make Washington function again for the people. One cannot blame President Obama for a rigid, ideological cult that calls itself the GOP. One cannot blame President Obama for a GOP party who clearly stated that their goal is to make him a one-term president rather than do what was right. It is difficult to comprehend why the GOP during a Great Recession could be so ignorant and unwilling to help the country and its pepole. President Obama proved that Party First point over and over. The fact that the GOP decided party came first is a black mark on them. President Obama is seen as more reasonable and the GOPTP is seen as obstructionist. Hindsight is aways late.

CT: My dear, I've already hired hundreds of people in my career. I've started and owned 5 Corporations in my career and employed hundreds of employees.

Well that is just so terrific Tom. So go out there today and hire a 100 people, seeing you're just so special. And double that living wage you were going to give to each of them!

You are a Great American Tom!

skip (or Priam's daugher, great Zeus!) -- As stated before, if Teapublicans put the same resources (time, effort, money) they put into plotting and conniving, and put that into governing instead, imagine what could be done?

Jody -- If the president had not given cooperation a chance, the Teapublicans and media be on the war path. The olive branches and Democrat concessions were not one, but many. And by the time the Teapublicans carried on with yet another threat down over the debt ceiling and the Teabaggers cheered the S&P downgrade, the nation knew obstructionism was all the Do Nothing House would offer.

Cant's: Why hasn't the GOP put forth ANYTHING to help the economy

Cant's: The trade agreements are one of the few things this congress has actually done. I understand why the GOP is upset they couldn't do more to highlight it.

The President says the treaties will create jobs. The GOP says the treaties will create jobs. Are you saying the President and the GOP are lying Cant's?

Roy Wilson:

After all, the 'Great Recession' officially ended almost 30 months ago.

Not true. Look it up.

Why have you focused on 'health care reform'

Maybe because 50 million Americans are uninsured and health care costs are out of control.

and 'financial reform'

Maybe because Wall Street caused the Great Recession and seems poised to do it again.

and 'moratoriums on drilling'

Maybe because the private sector -- e.g., BP (the Gulf) and Exxon (the Yellowstone River) -- seems incapable of self-regulation and more importantly values profits -- which they have no plan to share with you and me -- over worker and environmental safety.

and more 'regulations'

Could you be more specific, please, and explain in detail how these regulations are harmful, or that the harm of the regulation outweighs the benefit -- for example, air quality regulations.

and pushing for failed expensive 'Green Projects'

They only failed because Neanderthal-thinking right-wingers, like the Koch brothers, want to keep us mired in the fossil-fuel age because it benefits themselves in the short term. China seems to be doing quite well with its own "green projects," such as the heavily subsidized businesses that outmaneuvered Solyndra.

and job killing 'Cap & Trade'

Because it's better for your children and grandchildren to breathe clean air and drink clean water, than the alternatives being offered by your side.

and protecting union workers instead of what we really need - JOBS?

HUH? Do you really fail to see the connection between protecting unions and jobs? In which case, there seems to be not much hope for you.

All I can say is that you have really been heavy into the kool-aid. Heaven help you, sir.

skip nicholson:

I'm changing my blog moniker to "Priam's daughter."

Excellent. I'm getting pretty tired of my roll as Cassandra. Time for someone else to take a turn.

JoAnna.

The President says the treaties will create jobs. The GOP says the treaties will create jobs. Are you saying the President and the GOP are lying Cant's?

Ok. I will give you that.

Congress, as I said, did do something here. They signed the trade agreements negotiated by the White House.

But the question still remains....why is it nothing the GOP puts forth to help the economy passes independent analysis?

Why is it the only thing they have done that will help the economy comes from the White House, but they repeatedly say Obama has failed the economy?

Cant's: Could it be they only put forth ideological wish lists, and label them economic plans? Hmmmmmm..

This is confusing Cant's - you talking about the Republicans, or Obama?

why is it nothing the GOP puts forth to help the economy passes independent analysis?

Please define "independent analysis". You got someone in mind? And it better not be the CBO.

WCA:

The Bush/Iraq thing is so played out it's sad that you all keep wanting to talk about it. (Even though you claim I brought it up)

Res ipsa loquitur. Go back and review our posts. You're the one who turned my comparison between Obama's foreign and domestic successes into a comparison with Bush.

You can't win that, anyway. And you know it, which is why YOU don't want to talk about it.

But if people on the ground really believe that Iraq is now better off than when we went in, then what are you conservatives complaining about? Mission accomplished.

Or is it? Dare we mention Iran?

Which is exactly what Bush's initial invasion enabled?

Please.

Look, spin it all you want, the Iraq thing was what it was. Intel said he had WMD's. He had used WMD's before. Congress got the same Intel as the President.

You're the one who doesn't want to go HERE, unless you really want to start talking about treason. You're going back years to the Kurdish genocide as being evidence that Saddam presently had WMD, and you KNOW how flawed that is.

And we know all about the "intel," don't we?

Congress got the "same" ginned up "intel" as the White House because Dick Cheney saw to it.

And Valerie Plame Wilson, and untold numbers of outed CIA agents and operatives paid the price.

As did we all. A trillion dollars and 4,500 American lives, not to mention countless Iraqis, and thousands more Americans and Iraqis injured.

While you're at it, don't tell me what Americans think of condition in Iraq. Dig me up one average Iraqi citizen who thinks their world is better now, with a decimated infrastructure, constant violence, and the threat of all-out civil war, than it was before.

Just one who thinks Iraq will be better off under Iranian thrall than they were under Saddam.

Just one woman, if you REALLY want to revisit that Sharia law thing again.

Just one.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/moneymatters/a/When-Did-The-Great-Recession-End.htm

Q: When did the Great Recession begin?

A: December 2007, according to the National Bureau of Economic Research, a private, nonprofit research group.

Q: When did the recession end?

A: June 2009, though lingering effects such as high unemployment continued to plague the United States well beyond that date.

Or about 30 months ago..........

The GOP blocked the jobs bill. Only an ideolog hell bent on preserving their delusion would say different, when 100% of the GOP caucus in the Senate voted against it, and the House, controlled by the GOP, refused to even bring it up.

Great point, Republicants. Of course sensible people have been totally purged from the Conservative Movement and all that are left are radical ideologues.

WCA:

A: June 2009, though lingering effects such as high unemployment continued to plague the United States well beyond that date.

Or about 30 months ago..........

Yes, I know that it was "officially" declared over long before it was. Or even is.

Otherwise, what is everyone complaining about. Things are just fine now, aren't they?

Everyone has a job, home ownership is up, retail sales are roaring, wages and benefits are up, two chickens in every pot, a Bermuda vacation on everyone's calendar, and an American car in every garage.

No thanks to Republicans for that last part. Or the rest of it, either, actually.

Well AM, you said look it up so I did all the heavy lifting and typed into google, "When did the recession end?" and that is what came up.

Google is awesome. It knows everything.

No everything is not fine. According to the administration we have been through 2 "Summers of Recovery"

See, that's the problem and no matter how hard you try, it's not the Republicans fault.

Two years with overwhelming majorities to set policy to get the economy on track and the President failed.

No two ways about it.

Jody he did the right thing he did try to compromise, to the point of pissing off some democrats, they would claim he gave them what they wanted before the negotiations, they even stated that he was a lousy negotiator, the complaints, prove he tried to compromise. The art of negotiating is to find compromise, if you go into a negotiations with no intention of giving something to get something, it is not negotiations, if you do that then it's just becomes an expensive pissing match. As far as your post above this speaks to the dismissive attitude that everyone is starting to notice, how could you not notice, they pride and proclaim that they intend to be dismissive, to the point they now even dismiss many of their own ideas when proposed by the president. This might play to their base but it is stoking a larger fire against them, it mobilizes democrats, and I don't think it favorably impresses true independents one bit. If their Waterloo strategy does succeed in making Obama a one term president it will very likely be at the cost of a lot of republican governorships and house seats. Republicans passed on an opprutunity to create some jobs right after the mid-terms, and they would probably have had a lock on the white house, once your responsible you have to produce, they stuck with the scorched earth attitude, but that only works when you are not in the majority, otherwise you are torching your own reputation to perform your job, I think the tide has turned, if Obama keeps doing what he has been for the last month or so, then the worse republicans let it get the worse it will be for them in general and their candidate for president. I have seen no reason to believe they can even help themselves, they will insist on making this some body's Waterloo, but it is looking much less likely that it will be Obama's.

JoAnna.

This is confusing Cant's - you talking about the Republicans, or Obama?

It does appear you are easily confused.

No wonder you have bought into so much of the delusional crap you were fed.

I was talking about the Republicans, just to clear things up for you, and the fact that the only ideas they seem to come up with consists of random, recycled ideological wish lists.....they point to and deem plans to help the economy.

Unfortunately, none of them are actually shown to help the economy (in fact, some are shown to hurt the economy).

Please define "independent analysis". You got someone in mind? And it better not be the CBO.

The CBO is one of them. There are others as well. Moodies.

Macroeconmic advisors: http://macroadvisers.blogspot.com/2011/10/man-up-ajobsa-vs-jobstga.html

--------

But back to the CBO.

I realize that, as a delusional, spoon fed, ideolog, you have much to be angry at the CBO for. I mean, they rarely show anything close to the ideological delusion you hold so dear. The problem for you is...they are in line with the other independent analysis.

It makes it rather easy to believe anything you want when you dismiss anything that doesn't tell you what you want to hear, huh?

LOL!!!!! You are a riot.

WCA -- What planet you living on? The effects of the Great Recession are still be played out. When something of such great magnitude happens there are consequences. Most understand it will take many years to recover. The President took over after the fact. It's a difficult situation and the best experts world over are still trying to get it stabilized. Until the aftershocks stop completely we will have stagnation. Hold on it's likely to last a while.

Expect the herd to change direction as Norquist comes out in favor of Perry's tax plan. He does not like a VAT or sales tax. Interesting as I haven't seen it scored as revenue neutral officailly.

WCA,

I laughed on the face of the AM rebuttal prediction; but then I laughed even harder about the "Two Years of Overwhelming Majorities" meme.

Seriously? You made it sound like you were capable of doing 'math'; but I see not so much. I believe as calculated on this site numerous times the 'overwhelming majorities' lasted about 8 weeks of total Legislative Session.

The peg on Anna Molly's rebuttal was good, though.

White Collar.

No two ways about it.

There are apperently as many ways as your spoon fed delusion dictates.

Wow Cant's, look at you going to be bat for the CBO. Quite the fan you are!

What did the CBO show again for Obama's 2009 Reinvestment and Recovery Act? Oh, wait, here it is:

The CBO estimated that an increase in the GDP of between 1.4 percent and 3.8 percent by the end of 2009, between 1.1 percent and 3.3 percent by the end of 2010, between 0.4 percent and 1.3 percent by the end of 2011. . . .The impact to employment would be an increase of 0.8 million to 2.3 million by the end of 2009, an increase of 1.2 million to 3.6 million by the end of 2010, an increase of 0.6 million to 1.9 million by the end of 2011,

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Recovery_and_Reinvestment_Act_of_2009#Congressional_Budget_Office_reports

Did that come true Cant's? Notice it says increase in GDP, not the current rate of GDP. Are we at the rates the CBO predicted Cant's? Do you trust any of the CBO's estimates this time around Cant's? Could we call one that does trust the CBO estimates "delusional" Cant's?

Just ask'n.

I was talking about the Republicans, just to clear things up for you, and the fact that the only ideas they seem to come up with consists of random, recycled ideological wish lists

You mean like Obama's reworked HARP plan - which your macroadvisers group have already panned.

You seem intent to personal attacks today Cant's. What's the matter - a little insecure are you?

David -- There is much truth in your first post above. ; )

Joe Biden for Vice-President 2012!

Keith Olberman.....85,000 people watch him?....Not sure, but I think that more people will attend an LSU - Alabama football game!.......where is the beef Keith?....I bet you miss your MSNBC days!

Well shut my mouth and call me 'Cassandra' I don't think a single person here understands what I wrote.

You've all been completely distracted by the usual RWNJ suspects and their name-calling and GOP talking points.

SMOKE AND MIRRORS!

Flat-tax shmat tax. GOP primary? Who cares? It's all just a smoke-screen. Hey, hey, look over here, look at my left hand, don't look at my right hand or what I'm doing. Hey, hey, look at the lovely assistant, don't watch me!

OHIO MATTERS! Nothing else is as important right now. We win Ohio and repeal their unconstitutional anti-union law and we gain momentum and most importantly MONEY in a very important battle-ground state. C'mon folks, concentrate.

Oh, what's the use, I return you now to your regularly scheduled mud-slinging contest.

Heaven help us, we obviously can't help ourselves.

Obama/Biden 2012

Oh no republicants could not possibly be insecure.

The fact that every single person who disagrees with him is "delusional" and "spoon fed" is just a fact, and has nothing what so ever to to with our man Republicant's self-worth or self esteem.

Besides, like Feisty always says - persoanl attacks are a sign og a big brain.

Oh, and no fair citing the CBO JAS1. Too much for them I'm afraid.

Clara:

The peg on Anna Molly's rebuttal was good, though.

LoL Not so much predictive as inciting. I didn't even see the post till he mentioned it.

Of course, I couldn't let that ride. And now, Mr. Hard Guy seems to have disappeared.

Mission accomplished. ;-)

WCA:

Two years with overwhelming majorities to set policy to get the economy on track and the President failed.

No two ways about it.

Indeed. Not unless you consider that filibuster thingy in the context of those "overwhelming majorities."

And full circle right back to my original point, which I believe had to do with Republican obstruction.

Sometimes you've just got to take the long way home. ;-)

Ohio democrats should promise themselves to go to the polls and take responsibility and make sure 10 of your family and friends, union brothers, grandma on SS, kid with college degree cutting your lawn, and homeless man in the street (cause that always pisses them off), is registered and votes, vote straight Democratic and make it "kick a republican in the rump with your vote day". We can fix this sh!t if we want to, we are Americans, we justified the spending of trillions on anything and everything, we can't justify a spending bill on jobs and infrastructure for the nation. I want my tax money to be spent on 15 million unemployed Americans and infrastructure for all, I think it would be the best damn thing we can spent my tax money on.

AM - "Mr. Hard Guy?"

Is Weiner making another political run?

As for the big majorities - fact is Obama had them. Now he does not.

He's got a republican House and a dem senate that will not support him.

Could it be because his policies failed?

Is that why is out now, having to act all by himself?

Seems he has united the congress - he faces bi-partisan opposition.

How come AM?

Ben-636050

Talk about the height of hypocrisy. More on Keystone Pipeline and its controversy and Barack "The Dick" Obama's campaign has a former top lobbyist as a top guy??

Benny Boy

Looks like Jane Hamsher, Arianna Huffington, Cenk Uger, Glenn Greenwald, the New Progressive Alliance, and the rest of you silly people who think you’re going to convince us not to vote for Barack Obama by vigorously waving Lobbyist in our faces.

Hypocrisy is telling people to stay home or primary Primary President Obama which gave the Tea Potty nuts in Congress and Tea Potty nut governors like the one in Ohio & Wisconsin who are trying to taking away the middle class.

They are former Republicans and some of them are still work with the most despicable Republicans; particularly Glenn Greenwald and Jane Hamsher

Glenn Greenwald has also been published by The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, and The American Conservative, as well as the Cato Institute. that's right Greenwald writes article for the KOCH brothers' CATO INSTITUTE.

http://www.cato-unbound.org/contributors/glenn-greenwald/

Firebagger, Jane Hamsher, is so odious that she espoused a scorched earth campaign against the Obama White House in partnership with Grover Norquist. That's right Grover Norquist the fiend that the GOP & tea-nut signed a pledge to never pay taxes to.

http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2009/12/strange-bedfellows-indeed

We have been struggling a long f***ing time since the Tea Potty got here with it's straggle hold on the GOP.

We do know what time it is.

It’s Obama-time.

So take your hate and shove it; Benny Boy. We’re not having it. Just Cough Arianna cough: are gonna need a bigger boat to get money. look at the polls.

You’re wasting your time

Spanky -- It's called election season! Nice try at spinning.

In other news Perry is out saying regulations for Wall Street were adequate. LOL

http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/10/25/8480566-perry-wall-street-regulation-was-adequate

AM, he got his signature Health Care Reform passed, his stimulus passed, etc,why didn't he end the Bush tax cuts at the same time if they were so bad?

Revisionist history doesn't work when we are stuck with the reality of his failures.

Even his own party is running away from him now.

Soon, you will have to also, and then turn yourself around to pushing to obstruct the Republican President in 2013.

Truth be told, I'm just a big Teddy Bear. Or so I've been told.

Two democrats is not exactly bipartisan opposition.

Spanky I told you a thousand million times don't exaggerate.

Spanker.

Oh no republicants could not possibly be insecure.

The fact that every single person who disagrees with him is "delusional" and "spoon fed" is just a fact, and has nothing what so ever to to with our man Republicant's self-worth or self esteem.

Besides, like Feisty always says - persoanl attacks are a sign og a big brain.

Oh, and no fair citing the CBO JAS1. Too much for them I'm afraid.

LOL!!!

Wow. Those comments I made about your insecurity must have REALLY hit home, huh?

LOL!!!

And you are welcome all to disagree. However, Spanker, when you do, I expect you to support the points of disagreement.

You, and the other ideologs, cannot....mostly because your delusion was fed to you.

P.S. JoAnna did not cite the CBO or anything. She told me not to cite the CBO...probably because she was well aware the CBO's findings would contradict her delusion.

Dumb, dee, dee, dumb, dumb, dumb...

Spanker.

As for the big majorities - fact is Obama had them. Now he does not.

Obama did have just enough of a majority in the Senate to overcome a fillibuster....for a reletively short period of time.

And that brings up a good point, jr.

The 111th congress, with Democratic majorities, was one of the most legislatively productive congress in recent history.

Enter the GOP House majority in 2011.....and the 112th congress is on track to be more of a do nothing congress then the original do nothing congress.

LOL!!!

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

He's not hard on the *eyes* either! ;o)

WHOO HOO! LOVE THE BIG CLOWN NOSE! WHOO HOO!

WCA -- You said:

why didn't he end the Bush tax cuts at the same time if they were so bad?

Simple he knew that raising taxes in the worst of the recession would not be a good idea. That is why any tax increase was scheduled for a later date.

The democrats are running for election nothing else. Again nice try at spin but you boys must be getting a little dizzy by now! lol

AM - "Mr. Hard Guy?"

Anyway you look at it, Spanky. I laid it out there, and I should have known you'd be the one to take this bait.

Is Weiner making another political run?

Haven't heard. How about John Ensign? Chris Lee?

As for the big majorities - fact is Obama had them. Now he does not.

Fact is, that even when the President had "big" majorities, he didn't always have large, filibuster-proof majorities.

The difference between the "unitary" Barack Obama and the "unitary" George W. Bush is that Obama is now resorting to the executive order because he has tried and has no other choice; Bush did it without even asking, having essentially having declared himself king. You like to talk about enforcing the rule of law, but then ignore all of Bush's "signing statements," where he declared himself to be above it.

But let's not mince words. I have said many times that, in my humble opinion, the President's priorities during the first two years were wrong; he wasted too much time to get a bad health care bill, and he wasted too much time before turning his attention to Afghanistan. In addition, he let go of several things he had promised during the campaign, including card-check for union members and Cap and Trade. In addition, in my opinion, the stimulus was poorly designed.

What you seem to miss is that all of these deviations between his promises and his course were the probable result of the obstruction he encountered at every turn, mostly from Republicans in the Senate, wielding the filibuster weapon. What chance did any of those things stand?

He's got a republican House and a dem senate that will not support him.

And why is that, Spanky?

From the left, it's probably because they feel betrayed at how the President seems to have sold out on the promises he made to them.

On the right, however, it's just pure political obstruction. Remember Ronald Reagan, Spanky? You conservatives call him successful, but you have to remember he was working with a Democratic Congress. How did he get it done? He got it done because there was a guy named Tip O'Neill who understood that the Speaker of the House is the Speaker of the entire House, and not just cheerleader for his own side. Newt Gingrich, much as I dislike him, began a lot like John Boehner, but was rapidly forced to understand that he, too, had a larger role to play than mere politician.

John Boehner, not so much. And Boehner's legacy will ultimately be to have presided over what most experts believe is the worst, and least productive Congress in history. But you know? Boehner probably doesn't care because his true agenda is NOT to govern.

Could it be because his policies failed?

See above.

Is that why is out now, having to act all by himself?

See above. But he'd better figure this out quickly because time is running out for all of us. Houston was right earlier when he said that Obama should have negotiated with Congress from the start like they were the Taliban they have turned out to be. It's never too late to begin.

Seems he has united the congress - he faces bi-partisan opposition.

He has the power to change this, but not by moving to the further to the right.

How come AM?

It's because he believed in people who were not worthy of belief.

But don't blame him for that. Blame those people.

WCA:

AM, he got his signature Health Care Reform passed, his stimulus passed, etc, why didn't he end the Bush tax cuts at the same time if they were so bad?

Revisionist history doesn't work when we are stuck with the reality of his failures.

Maybe, but who's the one actually revising?

You make it way too easy, Auto Boy. He got HCR passed because he knew he wouldn't get a better bill, and he had already invested too much time in it, so he compromised in favor of the insurance companies who wanted to control the reforms.

He didn't allow the tax cuts to expire because Republicans, always wielding the filibuster weapon, threatened not to extend unemployment benefits, something that was very desperately needed at the time.

Or have you already forgotten? Because that would be truly sad, and it certainly calls the rest of your judgment into question.

WCA:

Truth be told, I'm just a big Teddy Bear. Or so I've been told.

LoL Bear boy. Love that. Of course, I'd have to see it to believe it. But I suspect you won't be coming to the misfits' reunion dance, either.

It's too bad, really. My plan was to flatter all the conservatives into buying because you guys are SO smart and SO rich.

So much for that. ;-)

I see posts to support repealing the law in Ohio, but where will the money come from to pay these excesses in benefits for public unions? There was a reason these items were targeted in states such as Ohio and Wisconssin. It is because they were areas that were bankrupting the states.

So now there is a vote to repeal? Does this come with a plan to fund it if it is repealed?

I see mention of the CBO above. Where is the mention of the CBO evaluation of the spending of the administration for the past few years? It is recordbreaking spending.

The reality is these issues and the elections to come is a battle between whether we decide to ignore the fact we are bankrupt and spend ourselves into the inevitable at an even more alarming rate, or if we realize the excess we have been living and do the required steps now to stop the bleeding.

It is obvious it is not a revenue problem, as we cannot raise taxes enough to account for the spending. So obviously it is a spending problem. And even as a GOP backer, I realize that cutting may not be the only way to accomplish the monumental task. But I am unwilling to increase taxes at all unless they have a chance of changing anything. And tax increases alone are what is being pushed. So by default I am against any increases in taxes, unless the spending is curbed to such a point that the tax increases will help, and right now that is the last thing anyone if proposing.

And BHO has his new pet plans, each involving spending more money. More money for mortgage relief. More money to pay for public temporary workers. More money, more money.

And he gripes about the GOP blocking his "Jobs Bill". First it should be illegal to even call it a jobs bill as it is anything but. In reality it is just another spending bill. But the section that came through that had a cost of $35 billion he knew would not pass. But he also knew all he had to do was present it as paid for and it would have passed without issue. Instead of making it dependent on a tax increase, just cut $35 billion from somewhere and it would go through without a fight. But he didnt want it to pass. He wanted it blocked to be his talking point. He knew the GOP would not agree to a tax increase. They committed that any new spending would be by means of equal cuts when they were elected. So BHO makes a bill he KNOWS will get blocked so he can use it as a talking point. Reality says, he didnt want it to pass, or he would not have made it depend on a tax increase. And this is the guy the left is so convinced is out to help the American people? If he wanted to help, and believed this crap legislation would do that, he could have gotten it passed easily. But he didnt, as tha is not his real goal. He cannot afford to get another failed plan out there. So his only option was to structure it in a way that he KNEW could not pass.

But long and short is, we are at a crossroad. We spend too much. BHO has many plans, all of which involve spending even more. Tax increases wont fix anything. And some people are willing to ignore these facts and vote for issues to support current spending levels, even though they cannot be sustained.

It is no longer an issue of anything other than what is affordable.

So why would you suggest voting to repeal a law that curbs spending? Any legislation to curb spending is what is required to get on the right track. Those that fight against these issues are fighting for us becoming Greece, defaulting on our debt, and being a minor player in the world economy. These items will all be eliminated when we are forced to have mass austerity measures anyway. So why vote to keep them now and hasten the austerity need? Do we really want to trade off the future for a few years of continued excess today? It sure seems as if some on this board do.

BHO is spending us into oblivion, any measure to fix current spending is being fought by the unions and lefties, and there is no plan in the near term future to do anything but increase the spending level. Unless we wake up to that fact, dont bring up tax increases as they will not do any good or even delay our default.

It is a spending problem, and we all need to face that fact. If we repeal any of these laws or re-elect BHO, we are just ensuring the demise of our country.

ABO 2012

Anna -- Ahh... the picture of a teddy bear in a tutu spinning around on a music box just popped into my mind! LOL

AM, if he wanted to end the Tax cuts he could have. He had the 2 senators in Maine who would have broken any filibuster and you know it.

Poor Obama. The only President who ever had a divided congress. So sad.

He forced Health care through and now it may very well get tossed.

I do agree with you, however, that he shot his wad on the Health Care. He could have probably gotten a lot of other things done for the Unions if he hadn't blown it.

The fact that he had to compromise in the end, because he had spent so much time on it was his fault. A clear miscalculation of the task at hand.

you guys are SO smart and SO rich

Problem is I'm cheap too, sounds like Spanky is as well, so I only buy when there is something in it for me.

It is all about me as a dilusional, spoon fed conservative you know.

White Collar.

It is all about me as a dilusional, spoon fed conservative you know.

Admitting the problem is the first step.

1. Now, turn off the cable news.
2. Do your OWN research on the issues.
3. Think the issues through, on your OWN.
4. Then come to your OWN conclusions.

Once you do that, and actually understand the issues you think you are debating, you can then safely watch cable news for what it is.....ENTERTAINMENT.

Good luck. I know it will be quite the challange for you.....you have much to learn.

AM, if he wanted to end the Tax cuts he could have. He had the 2 senators in Maine who would have broken any filibuster and you know it.

WCA, apparently "what you know" is not meant to be a factual statement;

Meanwhile, a spokesperson for McConnell said today that every Senate Republican has pledged to oppose any attempt to extend the Bush tax cuts that doesn't include an extension of the tax cuts for the wealthy. McConnell himself has given similar remarks. "That's the kind of debate that unifies my caucus, from Olympia Snowe to Jim DeMint," McConnell said, the Washington Post reports, referring to one of the most moderate and one of the most conservative Senate Republicans.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20016227-503544.html

Dang that history, it's harder to rewrite than you realized.

Feisty,

We are not even on the tracks anymore. We are in the ditch 100 feet from the tracks with both ends of the train burning and millions of innocent lives in the middle are in danger.

John B, Des Moines, IA

Dang that history, it's harder to rewrite than you realized.

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you there. It's easy to make stuff up like WCA and other far-right people do on a daily basis. It's much hard to do what you just did: research the facts to debunk their lies.

As Mark Twain said, a lie can travel around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes. The Republicans know that, and take full advantage of it.

Houston,

Right. Only the republicans lie. Just keep believing that and tapping your red ruby slippers together and maybe things will get better. I don't think they will any time soon.

White Collar.

It is all about me as a dilusional, spoon fed conservative you know.

Yep. We know.

AM, if he wanted to end the Tax cuts he could have. He had the 2 senators in Maine who would have broken any filibuster and you know it.

Meanwhile, a spokesperson for McConnell said today that every Senate Republican has pledged to oppose any attempt to extend the Bush tax cuts that doesn't include an extension of the tax cuts for the wealthy. McConnell himself has given similar remarks. "That's the kind of debate that unifies my caucus, from Olympia Snowe to Jim DeMint," McConnell said, the Washington Post reports, referring to one of the most moderate and one of the most conservative Senate Republicans.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20016227-503544.html

-----------------------

LOL!!!

Thanks John B.

I see posts to support repealing the law in Ohio, but where will the money come from to pay these excesses in benefits for public unions?

The same place it came from when the CEO, board members, and executives from the banks and Wall street paid themselves millions in bonuses even after we made their personal bank accounts whole again, the American taxpayer, that's where of course. The only difference most people would like to see is that they start paying their fair share of taxes back in like the public union employees certainly will. More and more people like the sound of that plan everyday, they got to do something, those people are going anywhere, they got to eat, if you don't have money for wages do you have it for welfare and foodstamps, they are not illegal aliens they can't be deported. Like I said republicans can pass a jobs bill and matbe help Obama get re-elected or not pass one and insure his second term. They overestimated the Tea Party as having flipped voters for them in the midterms, the tea party served a purpose, we should be concerned about debt, but the real issue was the economy and jobs, jobs, jobs. Where are all those shovel ready jobs you promised Mr. President, you said unemployment would go down, Mr. President, couls it be we know better how to create jobs? Well now they will look pretty silly if they can't create some jobs won't they. They beat the issue silly and killed democrats, you think it work out the same if they let Obama and democrats now do the to same to them. They can do something to quickly alleviate unemployment, or they will be swept out and the next crew will, because if they now go head to head with Obama on this issue for twelve more months, and play like they have been, they will be decimated at all levels of government in the coming elections. They better get moving, because if unemployment gets worse in the next twelve months they are holding the bag they promised they could produce jobs and they have not yet so far, there is a lot of tape out there of them screaming at the president about jobs and now there is plenty of tape out there showing them unanimously voting against the presidents job bill. It is a loser for them if they don't do what they said they would do if they were elected, they probably already waited too long to save the oval office for a republican but if they hurry they can still save some governors and Congressional seats, they will lose if they don't.

This just Out:

• US Shipped Billions of Dollars To Iraq: Where Did It All Go?

  It has been called the largest airborne transfer of currency in history. But finding out what happened to the billions of dollars in cash the US sent to Iraq has become one of the biggest financial mysteries of all time.

  • NY Fed Won't Say How Much Money Went to Iraq

By one account, the New York Fed shipped about $40 billion in cash between 2003 and 2008. In just the first two years, the shipments included more than 281 million individual bills weighing a total of 363 tons. But soon after the money arrived in the chaos of war-torn Baghdad, the paper trail documenting who controlled it all began to go cold.

buckeyenut-2225921

Houston,

Right. Only the republicans lie.

If you say so. I certainly didn't say that. But by pretending I said something I did not say, you're doing a good job of illustrating my point. You and WCA and other wingnuts just make stuff up on a routine basis when you've got no good rational defense for your behavior. Sure, everyone has told a lie now and then. But people like you are habitual liars.

CPAUL

By one account, the New York Fed shipped about $40 billion in cash between 2003 and 2008. In just the first two years, the shipments included more than 281 million individual bills weighing a total of 363 tons. But soon after the money arrived in the chaos of war-torn Baghdad, the paper trail documenting who controlled it all began to go cold.

We're not supposed to talk about that because the Bush regime's graft and corruption are in the past. We're supposed to be hysterical over the half-billion dollar loan to Solyndra that went bad, not the 40 billion dollars Bush "misplaced" in Iraq, or the trillions of dollars we'll still be paying in the medical bills of combat troops for the rest of their lives to treat the devastating wounds they received while fighting Bush's pointless war.

It is all about me as a dilusional, spoon fed conservative you know.

It's all about who does the feeding, Bear Boy.

But I can't help but giggle at the image of you in a tutu, spinning around atop a music box.

Thank don't_carry for that.

I wonder what the tune would be.

I may not be rich, but I'm also not cheap. I'd pay REAL money to see that.

Why when you are questioned do you attack the person? Did I attack you personally? I'm pretty sure I didn't. I'd report you to the vine but they only suspend people who don't agree with their world views.

If you would be so kind as to show me 1 post where I've made something up. I'll gladly agree and apologize. I don't think you can but I could be wrong.

I'll bet a C-130 can hold a lot of cash.

Almost 25 minutes later and not 1 example of me making something up? Come on, now you can do better than that. There are only two pages of material to work with. How long can it take?

buckeyenut-2225921

If you would be so kind as to show me 1 post where I've made something up.

You pretended that I had said that "only Republicans lie." You made it up. You couldn't come up with a rational response to what I wrote, so you lied.

still giggling too...must have chased that bear away!

" It's easy to make stuff up like WCA and other far-right people do on a daily basis."

Is this not your direct qoute? Doesn't the quoted text state other far right (republican) poeple make stuff up?

I didn't make this up. This is your quote. So no I did not lie. The bear is still here. It's just that he had some work to do.

You still didn't answer why you have to attack someone personally when questioned. Does it make you feel big to insult someone from behind a computer screen?

Anna Molly,

The question was presented in a previous post to identify the successes of the administration both foreign and domestic. You talked in circles about Bin Laudin, but never responded to the original question. Can you outline for me the domestic successes of this administration?

buckeyenut-2225921

" It's easy to make stuff up like WCA and other far-right people do on a daily basis."

Is this not your direct qoute?

I didn't make this up.

Huh? It had nothing to do with that quote. You claimed that I believed ONLY Republicans lied, which is itself a lie. So now you're falsely claiming I denied making a statement that I did make and didn't deny. You're getting all tangled up in your own lies. What a tangled web you weave, etc.

You still didn't answer why you have to attack someone personally when questioned. Does it make you feel big to insult someone from behind a computer screen?

Does it make you feel big to lie about someone else from behind your computer screen? And I feel pretty insulted that you claimed I believe something that totally ridiculous. No matter how many times you click YOUR ruby slippers together, it won't change the fact that you've made stuff up. Twice in one day, too.

Anna Molly

You should be recruited by Obama's team. They need more 'excuses' for his failures.

The fact is that all of Obama's proposals have one thing in common - they protect UNION jobs, and they spend lots of taxpayer money without meaningful results.

Most people would call that a "Failure f Leadership".

The reduction of housing values is an indicator for this economic crisis just as the field mouse was an indicator during the spotted owl crisis.

What the country needs is a universally variable rate. Wages, insurance, withholdings, pension payments, healthcare payments, everything, must go up or go down with GDP.

Think about it. So a buyer ends up with a house worth half of what he owes in the recession. Adjust his payment to half and he will probably be alright all other things being equal.

Now, suppose the workmen who built the house earned $55 per hour and now are out of work because if they build another house at $55 per hour it will be 2 times too expensive on the market. So lower the wage to $27.50 per hour and the workmen will be alright.

Get the idea?

It is the way to getting people back to work.

Roy.

You should be recruited by Obama's team. They need more 'excuses' for his failures.

No. You need to be told how to better defend your spoon fed delusion.

The fact is that all of Obama's proposals have one thing in common - they protect UNION jobs, and they spend lots of taxpayer money without meaningful results.

Nope. They do have one thing in common, however.

They all have been found by independent analysis to actually create jobs.

Unlike the GOP's delusional economic plans....none of which has been found by independent analysis to create jobs.

Most people would call that a "Failure f Leadership".

Yep. Pointing to random, recycled idelogical wish lists and flippantly calling it a jobs bill - as the GOP has done on several occations....certainly is a failure of leadership.

Winemaker:

The question was presented in a previous post to identify the successes of the administration both foreign and domestic. You talked in circles about Bin Laudin, but never responded to the original question. Can you outline for me the domestic successes of this administration?

No. And I won't try. Since May 15, 2009, the day he sold out to the health insurance companies, I've never defended him on domestic stuff.

Au contraire, if you've ever read my posts before. I'm the anomalous liberal around here who takes great issue with the President's economic strategies.

Too little, and now too late.

That wasn't the question, by the way, if you go back and read my original post. That was just how Bear Boy decided to flip it. He didn't like the foreign policy question, but he should have known better than to try that on me. You, too. ;-)

JKL;

?

Amy B:

QWERTY home row.

Good one, Anna. lol

You want a plan to eliminate the Tea Party once and for all? It's SIMPLE yet brilliant: President Obama just needs to come out endorsing the idea that Americans need to consume plenty of drinking water and/or liquids containing drinking water every day.

A fifth of this country will die from either dehydration or alcohol poisoning within 10 days.

Amen, Rick's Real

If President Obama would start drinking ARIZONA TEA in public,...I think THAT would be enough to send most of them whimpering into a corner,...

THE HORROR! and the headline:

President Likes Tea - Tea Party Disbands in Protest!

and, of course, Cain had to go to a 9-0-9 plan to try and 'win' the hearts and minds of those also not paying Federal INCOME taxes due to,...you know, that little technicality of being flat assed broke,...

I can't believe I am agreeing with Bachmann,...the devil really IS in the details,...

And there are a bunch of perch flopping around on the dock,....Out of their depth doesn't begin to cover it.

Clara, wouldn't you love to know how Bachmann's national team was "cruel" to her NH team? I was just catching up on yesterday's threads.

Grand Moff Joseph

And besides, since 47% of Americans don't owe any income tax now under the current plan, what incentive do they have to switch? Especially if they get to keep the deductions.

The Tax Policy Center has tried to correct Fox News and the right wing media's misuse of their research. In April 2010, Howard Glickman of the TPC wrote,

Let me explain—repeat actually—what this means: About half of taxpayers paid no federal income tax last year. It does not mean they paid no tax at all. Many shelled out Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes. In fact, only 14 percent of Americans didn't pay either income or payroll taxes. Some paid property taxes and, it is fair to say, just about all of them paid sales taxes of one kind or another. So to say they pay no taxes is flat wrong.

The actual number of Americans who don't pay any taxes isn't half, but 14%. This group of non-taxpayers of any kind is largely composed of the elderly and disabled. The people who don't pay taxes do so because they can't work.

http://www.politicususa.com/en/half-americans-taxes

You really need to stop watching & listening to FOX NOISE and its right wing ECHO CHAMBER.

Get it?

Perry's mistake--it isn't a flat tax if all kinds of deductions and exemptions are allowed. Not only that he creates two parallel tax systems--people will do their taxes twice to determine which option provides the lowest tax rate. Talk about uncertainty, Perry just developed a whole tax code filled with uncertainty.

Jody,

Yes, "uncertainly " is the attitude of the GOP/TP these days. And the Iowa caucus is only 70 days away.

Though the spelling is different, I am constantly thinking of what "nine, nine, nine" means. Herman Cain must sound especially amusing to the German-speaking people of the world.

Was the "Debbie Downer" bit really worth writing?

Seems FR felt is necessary to toss the right wing nuts some red meat just take a look above...

They're all over it like flies on steaming pile of crap! ;o)

Talk about drama queens!

I will state again that anyone who is a so called birther is just plain stupid and crazy. And that is a fact. So, you Perry supporters can get on board that clown train and be part of the half-wit redneck cowboy fan club.

Similarly, Nash, how about Perry saying it is "fun" to suggest that the President of his country is not validly elected, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. There is respect for you.

Actually, is a blow-by-blow account of the Teapublican primary necessary? If so, why not go into more detail about Perry and the Birthers or something.

But there is so much other news of interest, like how the infrastructure part of the Jobs Act will be brought up any day now, what's going on with propositions in Ohio, the investigation and recall of Scott Walker, and other losers like Rick Scott in Florida and his Medicare fraud, etc.

And most of all the OWS movement. The Teapublicans in congress are starting to get nervous--Cantor has put his speech on hold...

Nashville_fan

Dear First Read:

just another subtle way to have something negative to say about a President that keeps interrupting his critics with one success after another.

Nice try though.

. . . and the media pretends like its all business as usual . . . when it is anything but

Hiya Nash,

Thanks for calling them all. Your point should be well taken my FR.

It's bad enough we are subjected to Morning Joke, Pat Buchanan, Halpren, Harold Ford, a Wall Street exec, and have to endure the Wall Street shrill Dylan Rytlan.

BTW: President Obama campaigned for Harold Ford and this is his why of trying to remain relevant by bitching on FR about the Prez.

FR, mercy have some respect.

Job1

I will state again that anyone who is a so called birther is just plain stupid and crazy.

I'm not sure how many are so stupid they can't understand the obvious fact that Obama was born in the US. I think that people who claim they "don't know" whether Obama was born in the US might just be saying that to insult him. Rick Perry got in trouble for that rock on his ranch with the "N" word on it. Well, Perry and his fans may have found a substitute insult to hurl at Obama that they think is more "politically correct" but is really just as disgusting as the "N" word.

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

Seems FR felt is necessary to toss the right wing nuts some red meat just take a look above...

They're all over it like flies on steaming pile of crap! ;o)

Talk about drama queens!

Feisty

Especially, that drama queen Lady Jo Sniff who is always sniffing around. I bet she was glad to get meat this time instead of a bone. If a banker called her to offer her benefits the HARP program could offer on her mortgage, she'd take it in a New York minute.

Nashville Fan, you always tell it like it is. Cheers for your comment! Filibustering every piece of legislation, obstructing and denying up/down votes on every nominee is NOT "business as usual" in the Senate; it is tyranny and abuse by the minority party. It is time for the media to step up to the plate and report the reality.

Nashville:

Late to the discussion but you are so on point with this observation!

As was revelaed in last week's Pew Report regarding negative reporting on the President while the crazies on the GOP get a free ride, this is just more of the same.

Drama Queens Feisty? Now isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? lol......

Was going to ask if anyone besides me, a Southeastern US indie, finds it the height of irony that the most uneducated part of the country is the most stalwart supporter of the GOP?

It's not known as the 'Redneck Riviera' for nuttin... lol

It is well established that one's level of education is inversely proportional to your propensity to vote GOP all the time*.

*exception: the top 1%, who are too rich to care to vote for anyone else's interest but their own

I think you just said it. ;-)

Yeah M. Fisher. Nothing like some good ole liberal elitism in the morning, huh? Our nation's inner-cities are packed with the uneducated and they vote exclusively DEMOCRAT. Did you really want to go there? You liberals condescension and contempt for the working class bites you in the ass every time. Keep it up. It's always won elections for the Repubs. You forgot to add; "why do so many people vote against their own self-interests?"

M Fisher, another way to look at it is to point out that the Old South is Republican and the rest of the country is Democratic, with a few swing states to make things interesting. Looked at through that lens the Civil War has never been fully resolved, with Republican states continuing to cling to their belief in the primacy of states rights, the need for very low cost labor, and an aristocratic class who deserve to rule the society. That doesn't say anything better about the GOP, does it?

M Fisher, you really need to stop calling yourself an "Indie" when it's obvious that you are anything but with comments like this:

The most ignorant people in the country can be relied upon to support Republicans

You are a fraud.

Riiiiight....because only hardcore Conservatives are allowed to call themselves "Independent" around here.

Great post M Fisher, and when one of our political parties is so powerfully regional it's well worth examining how and why.

For some reason this subject is deeply uncomfortable for our FR Conservatives.

The GOP doesn't seem to have the brightest group on board. Just look at their choices for President. Huntsman is the only real choice.

However, he want get the red neck vote.

John B

Although not the same party as back then, republicans did not believe in primacy of states rights back in the Civil War era. That was the dominant belief in the south prior to their un constitutional secession. Republicans wanted to preserve the union and did not believe states had the rights to dissolve it. Republicans and Democrats are different today then they were back then and even were different back in the 1960s. In general it is a difficult to try to latch on to either parties' ideals from earlier times and try to reconcile them with today's modern parties.

_____________________

From Wikipedia -

"The causes of the Civil War were complex, and have been controversial since the war began. The issue has been further complicated by historical revisionists, who have tried to improve the image of the South by lessening the role of slavery. Slavery was the central source of escalating political tension in the 1850s. The Republican Party was determined to prevent any spread of slavery, and many Southern leaders had threatened secession if the Republican candidate, Lincoln, won the 1860 election. Following Lincoln's victory, many Southern whites felt that disunion had become their only option."

John B, Des Moines, IA

Have you read American Nations: A History of the Eleven Rival Regional Cultures of North America by Colin Woodard? (I don't want to get collapsed for advertising so I won't give you a link to his website or Amazon.)

Woodard posits the existence of eleven distinct regional cultures in America, based on how they were settled. For instance, he notes that the Mid-west was founded by English Quakers, who organized themselves around the idea of an eqalitarian middle class, vs the low lands of Virginia and Maryland that were founded by younger sons of English gentry and brought along the model of authoritarianism (indentured servants and slaves serving the landed gentry.)

I can't resist posting this excerpt from Woodard's book on why the Tea Party is fading in the Northeast, because it rings true to what I see around me in Maine:

From the Puritan migration of the 1630s to the debt ceiling debate, as noted above, Yankees have championed individual self-denial for the common good, investment in strong public institutions, and governmental projects to improve society; the Tea Party is unlikely to ever take deep root in such inhospitable soil.

By contrast, the Tea Party has encountered little resistance to its agenda in the four nations of the Dixie bloc, as it is a carbon copy of the Deep Southern program of the last two centuries: reduce taxes for the wealthy and services for everyone else, crush the labor unions, public education, and the regulatory system, and suppress voter turnout

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/novemberdecember_2011/features/a_geography_lesson_for_the_tea032846.php?page=4

Job1 -

However, he want get the red neck vote.

I may not be bright, but I can spell won't.

Now isn't it time for recess there youngster?

I will check that out Amy. Have you read A People's History of the United States by Howard Zinn? A great read--it is not the version of our history I got in school! Well written and researched--gives some perspective for what is happening now!

"We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo by Walt Kelly

WCA - I love when a republican calls me a fraud. Especially since the republicans are such frauds. "The will of the people" my ass.

I'm an Indi who used to be a dyed in the wool republican. You can thank your GWB for curing me of that.

;-)

Thanks for the book suggestion, nurse!

A lot of great points. I'd like to address Yellowdog on;

Although not the same party as back then, republicans did not believe in primacy of states rights back in the Civil War era. That was the dominant belief in the south prior to their un constitutional secession. Republicans wanted to preserve the union and did not believe states had the rights to dissolve it. Republicans and Democrats are different today then they were back then and even were different back in the 1960s. In general it is a difficult to try to latch on to either parties' ideals from earlier times and try to reconcile them with today's modern parties.

Right, very true and that's why I focused on the regionality of beliefs rather than parties. It's been a remarkable sea change within the parties which began with the passage of the Civil Rights Act and departure of the Dixiecrats to the Republican Party.

Point taken John B. Perhaps I misread your previous comment, and misunderstood.

Fisher:

You are not only a fraud; you are full of shyt! You have never been a Republican. You are just another run of the mill Liberal in here attempting to impress the Peanut Gallery with the " I used to be a Republican" BS.

Just be who you are. Stop running from the word Liberal....oops Progressive or whatever it is these days.

ITM

So good to see you BACK from your week in exhile. Kind of hard to stay away, wasn't it?

PS. For what it's worth I was a Republican,...voted for Reagan once. And then I got me one of them high fallutin' edumacations,...and well, the rest is history,...

Oh hey, so chimes in the #1 proof that on FR only hardcore Conservatives are allowed to call themselves "Independent."

John B:

For clarification purposes; not that I need to. I have never indicated I was a confused so-called Independent, I lived in the middle of TX at the time that moniker was conceived.

I have voted for other than a Republican before but I will be damned if I vote Democrat just for the sake of not wanting to be called an Uncle Tom, Oreo, uninformed or the biggy "voting against my own interest"....lol... That is a good one. How in the hell does someone that doesn't know jack about me personally can say I vote against my own interest when I cast the R vote?

Clara:

I would like to know how does everyone but myself know my moniker was suspended but me? I was on the vine when that happened. There are bunch of whimps on these boards that cry about everything. They accused me of using a program to knock people off of the board. I retalliated and said some things that the moderator couldn't handle (truth) about her bias and her computer caught a heat flash, so she put me out to satisfy some of those little ..........

I would like to know how does everyone but myself know my moniker was suspended but me?

Obviously I'm not Clara but here goes...

It was your second 1 week suspension in as many weeks - you already used that bull@!$%# excuse the first time around!

Not to mention you re-regged under 'pimp something or other' and when called out on it changed your 'new & improved' moniker to 'Willie Dynamite' & scrubbed your home page...

That's how...

Why don't you man up for a change?

Fisty:

WTF are you talking about? How in the hell do you know how many suspensions I have? Are you SALLY? You seem to know a lot about this damn place.

If I re-reg, how did it get through? Believe me, you do not want to play the TRACKER with me.

Why don't you stand up for a change, give your knees a rest.

It's not rocket science little man:

First offense:

Jackazz it is written off via insurance......

IntheMiddle, TX, you are suspended for a week for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.

Above all else, respect others. Address issues and arguments and refrain from making personal attacks.

#4.16 - Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:07 PM CDT\

Followed up with this:

Why don't you sukk a nut.....jackazz.

IntheMiddle, TX, you are suspended for a week for violating rule # 1 of the Code of Honor.

Above all else, respect others. Address issues and arguments and refrain from making personal attacks.

#10.21 - Fri Oct 14, 2011 4:54 PM CDT

In other words - YOU are a TWO TIME LOSER!!!

LMAO@U chump!

Inthemiddle has a lot of anger, doesn't he/she? Don't know the gender nor care. I have to point out that, for someone who gets so inflamed when I refer to myself as an Indi, "inthemiddle" comes off as a rather strange choice for a handle.

I've come to realize that it takes both sides working together and I am an Indi. I'm so down on the pub's because they are doing everything they can to keep the economy in the tank so they can beat Obama come next election. They've stated their intensions more than once. Their actions absolutely prove it. There is no meaningful denial of it by rational minds.

To let people and businesses suffer so the GOP can try to win an election is evil as hell. They deserve everyone's anger no matter the party affiliation.

White Collar Auto

M Fisher, you really need to stop calling yourself an "Indie" when it's obvious that you are anything but with comments like this:

The most ignorant people in the country can be relied upon to support Republicans

You are a fraud.

In M Fisher's defense; who says that someone calling themselves an "indie" has to mean somewhere between left and right? Indie means independent of their party's views; meaning that perhaps the current party in M Fisher's view may not be liberal or conservative enough. For that reason, M Fisher is legitimate.

Glad to see you Anna Mullah. Maybe you and Amy can answer the question you refused to answer yesterday: If Bush was a war criminal for waging war in Iraq and Afghanistan, for the Patriot Act, for Gitmo, Predator Drones etc..., then why isn't Obama ALSO a war criminal? I personally support BOTH president's efforts in the War On Islamofacism. You people only support the efforts when being done by Obama. I don't know if you two, personally were among the ignorant lefties calling for war crimes charges against Bush/Cheney, but I was hoping you all could give me some insight since you ducked the question yesterday.

I'm just glad Feisty was first and order has been restored.

Damage123

"Glad to see you Anna Mullah..."

Anna WHO? Mullah??

See, Anna is one of the more polite, level-headed posters on here. I have to ask, damage- are you a complete a**hole, or do you just play one on the internet?

Honestly, Drive-By, I can't really tell any of you apart. Your rants and raves all blend together into one big mish-mash of lefty nonsense and jibberish. If Anna Molly DOES happen to be the civil, levelheaded liberal on here like you say (and I doubt), then my apologies to Anna Molly. Now maybe she can answer the question.

By the way Drive-By. You need some new material. You've used that "are you a complete a**hole...." line at least three times in the last week. Get on google and find some more internet put-downs. You probably stole it from me anyway.

I didn't support Bush's war in Iraq. I didn't support Obama's escalations in Afganistan. I did not support Bush signing the Patriot Act, I didn't support Obama's reauthorization of it. I didn't support Bush's warrantless wire tapping crimes, I didn't support Obama waiving going after the cell phone companies for their participation. I didn't support the torture and rendition orders that Bush's administration started, I don't support Obama's continuation of these policies by looking the other way or farming out the dirty work to other countries.

The deal with Drones, although I don't agree with these wars, in war you kill your enemy. Both presidents used drones in their war making capacities. Obama has used them more effectively. While Bush was critiziced mostly for torture approving techniques, Obama has been critiziced mostly for drone attacks.

The big difference I see is that a drone attack when done to a confirmed enemy is acceptable in the laws of war. It is acceptable to kill your enemy in war. It is not acceptable to kill or torture your enemy after they have been captured. The torture of a prisoner, whoever they may be or whatever crime they have committed, being held under your power is a war crime. That person is unable to defend themselves and is completely dependent on the captor. To torture or to allow for the torture of that individual, however vile they may be, makes you as inhumane as they are.

Damage123

"Honestly, Drive-By, I can't really tell any of you apart. Your rants and raves all blend together into one big mish-mash of lefty nonsense and jibberish..."

...he said, as he ranted and raved in a big mish-mash of nonsense and jibberish aimed at his philosophical opponents.

But as to the three posts (keeping track, huh? Must be a small world you occupy)- If the shoe fits, and all......

Damage123

Bush made a choice to invade Iraq. Obama had no choice, but to manage what Bush started as best he could. There-in lies the difference.

Mark, your comments open a whole real, non-philosphical discussion.

First I agree that The military has used the drones more effectively recently. I would not, however, necessarily contribute that to Obama as much as I would the advance in the technological capabilities of the Drone program. It was pretty new when Bush started using it.

Obama has not used torture (that we know of) because he has killed his targets. By doing this we have lost any possible intel that could be helpful in future attacks. I don't think this is good.

See, I don't care if we torture these bastards that have set out to kill us if it is going to save lives. I also don't care if we kill them.

So the question is I guess is torture more inhumane than murder?

Distinction without a difference, when it comes to terrorists, for me.

Texas in 6.

Amy - You could easily be talking about Johnson/Nixon but I doubt you would give Nixon the break you are giving Obama. I'm sure you did or do consider Nixon a war criminal. You see, it doesn't matter if a president is just carrying on the actions of his predecessor, does it? So, let me see if I have this right: the sucessor, carrying out the same actions (Gitmo, Predators, killing civilians, Patriot Act,) is excused from any of the condemnation simply because he inherited the war? Oh yeah...AND he's a liberal? Ok. Got it.

Also, when is Obama gonna start touting his racist/facist/xenophobic policy of sending home/deporting HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of Latinos? Don't tell me they were all criminals that were sent home. He just came up with that in the last few months anyway.

White Collar Auto

Call me a yellow bellied liberal, but I don't agree with torture. I don't care if it was Obama who ordered it or allowed it. Yes he hasn't. Yes there is no known proof that Obama has allowed torture, he voiced his opposition to it, however, not so sure our affliates/allies have his same policy. Not trying to burn bridges here, but to increase our philosophical discussion, I'm an not so naive to think that our CIA and special ops have not dirtied their hands before. Again, I'm sure it has happened and approved on both D and R watches.

Torture is inhumane. Killing during War is not murder, although assasination is.

Rangers need to win in 6 or I fear they will lose it in 7.

Don't hurt your brain, Yellowdog. The correct answer is - Bush is a right-wing, corporate facist...Obama is a left-wing saint who makes the sun rise every morning. That's how simple it is to these people. Obama=Good.....Anyone who disagrees=Evil.

Damage123

Nixon inherited the Vietnam War and prolonged it. Obama inherited the Iraq War and ended it. Get the diff?

Mark,

Where I see the real gray area here now is in the definition of "war".

I believe we are at war with a country-less enemy and that makes us vulnerable.

I understand your position, but terrorists often leave us little choice.

For instance, if someone kidnapped my daughter and I was able to catch or kill them, I would want to catch them and then use everything at my disposal to coerce them to tell me where she was.

Killing them, most likely, won't get my daughter back.

The theortical possibilities can be endless. The domestic kidnapping example is a criminal and not a war related attack. A desire to want to coerce from a criminal, information by any means necessary is a personal decision, which is your right. I think your perfectly, noble personal desire to coerce for information for the benefit of your child is not the issue.

The issue is that any means necessary should not be codified by the police or civil or international law so that it can be used by police, soldiers or CIA to torture.

My brain is hurting.

Damage123

By the way Drive-By. You need some new material. You've used that "are you a complete a**hole...." line at least three times in the last week. Get on google and find some more internet put-downs. You probably stole it from me anyway.

Damage123 is right, Drive-By. You do need some new material. So I took the liberty of typing 'internet insults for damage 123' into Google. The #1 result that came back was:

Flaming (Internet) also known as bashing is defined as a hostile or insulting interaction between internet users.

Well that was educational! He's more than just getting credit for being a complete a**hole, he's achieved the #1 position on google!

You also don't find "teabagger" in your dictionary, do you? But that word is thrown around here hundreds of times daily. Islamofacism is like porn; you know it when you see it.

Go easy on him, TheGOPLies- he's just not very happy these days for some reason.

I think the Tea Party people should be proud that they didn't know the vulgar meaning of the term "teabagger." Why would they? I would think nearly all the people who practice "teabagging" are liberals, with the exception of a couple pervert Repub congressmen. Just like most of the people who practice other male-on-male perversions that cause disease. Question- do they hurt?

Islamofacism is like porn; you know it when you see it.

And Conservatives see their favorite bogeymen under every bed and in every closet.

You're right, Sloop. We do. And the lefties fears are ALL completely rational. Funny how that works. Reminds me, I need to make longer posts. Mr. Koch pays me by the word.

Correction Damage 123 - You DO find teabagger in the dictionary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/teabagger

Wow Damage - quite the claim that male-on-male causes disease. Did ya learn that from the same school that teaches you the world is 6000 years old; the cause hairy palms? Now run off to Faux News .. the news source for the insane/low IQers, where they are sure to pat you on the back for your stellar claims.

shh, Houston!

you're not allowed to mention the road that led us here,...Repubs want to hand you a map and tell you to find your own way home,...

Of course the maps are made in China and have nothing to do with American locales; but you better not complain,...

Or you'll be labeled a liberal elite.

seriously,...fuzzy logic and Cain's Math degree are literally ALL they have left.

What the hell are you talking about? What was Bush to do? He warned of impending trouble with Fannie and Freddie. If you recall there were two democrats (you know who) that said Awwwwe their just fiiiiiiiiiine.

Damn, put blame where it should be put! Put it on everyone involved.

...and Hoover's approach that let the Great Depression burn for 3 years while doing nothing.

buckeyenut-2225921

Damn, put blame where it should be put! Put it on everyone involved.

The blame lies fully with the people who played the roulette wheels at the Wall Street Casino with other peoples money, where the house always wins, and with the Republicans, who were shocked SHOCKED that there was gambling going on in there.

Did I state that wall street wasn't involved in this?

Answer: No.

I think it makes the Radical Right feel special to defend the super rich. It's like the super rich are not going to do anything for them, except screw them over.

Job1--the radical right lap up the propaganda that they too can join the ranks of the uberwealthy if they work hard enough and long enough. They don't realize that the uberwealthy have stacked the deck against them! ....and while waiting for the "American Dream", they are willing to snatch at any crumbs that fall from the tables of the uberwealthy, and consider themselves so fortunate that they vote against their own best interests!

"We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo by Walt Kelly

It fulfills a psychological need for pandering to the aristocracy.

I'm sorry but I don't think you understand how the system is currently working. Look at the percentage of total taxes paid by the top 20% of income earners then look at the bottom 80% and get back to me on who is paying little.

I can understand why you feel the way you do if you buy into the democrat talking point that the rich don't pay their "fair share". If you look at real numbers and not talking points you'll find the ones not paying their way are you and I.

Let the people of Ohio decide.

oh stop the if it's not about getting rid of union money what's it about....is it about spending cut no he's given it to the rich corps...in ohio ...this is a attempt to get rid of union money that goes to dems,, and the voter suppression act is it's buddy young old poor...are excluded...power play so the gop can be the thousand year reich..... dude get off the air.........i'm a firefighter here and the funny thing is that 90 % of cops and firefighter vote republican....not this time and maybe never again good play gop jerks;...this is transfer of wealth to the rich and a consoladation of power to keep it.... man the state of denial you guys live in....unbelieveable...

marc,

If Ohio had any rich corps left we might be able to give them a tax break. Since most have went away we don't have any to give breaks to.

you realize that you have basically 7 minutes once you stop breathing till you become mixed vegatables right heard about the golden hour of trauma,,,and stroke two hours is the key....good luck with that this isn't about politics it isn't about taxes it's a power grab plain and simple ....vote yes....1 in 2 men get cancer 1 in 3 woman.....hope you don't have a heart attack because that just doesn't happen....37,000 runs people said it couldn't happen to me and that was last year.....i'm a firefighter and what john kasick aa politician lie....john kasick and his wall street buddys ruin the country's economy and said it was cops and firefighters....ruining the country.... really,,,,,kasick he knows all about firefighting hell he bankrupted a fortune 500 company.....trust right....

Thanks for all the fear mongering but You haven't explained how not allowing unions to bargain with benefits will cut their numbers or response time.

Keep going maybe you can help me understand but i doubt you can based upon your first reply.

buckeyenut -- here's an attempt at an answer. The jobs in question: firefighters, teachers, police officers, highway patrol, garbage collectors... public service jobs... are difficult for the pay, education and amount of responsibility involved. If public sector workers aren't even allowed to bargain for the benefits that they think are most important and conducive to their workplace, they will leave the public sector. Municipalities would have the option of hiring "private" forces at higher cost or doing without.

Kate,

Thanks for your reply. I appreciate the thoughtful response without resorting to fear mongering. I just don't feel the potential loss of policemen and firemen is enough to get me to change my mind. But thanks again for the reply.

Buckeyenut it is also to give workers the right to collectively bargain for textbooks for students, equipment for law enforcement and fire fighters, classroom sizes, equipment upgrades and so on. I have seen your posting history, I doubt this will change your mind either. Feel free to move to a right-to-work state, like say WVA, where their public workers make less than the private sector. You get what you pay for.

terriels,

Can you tell me exactly in Ohio SB 5 where you saw this? I like to read it for myself. Forgive me for not taking your word for it.

I'll wait right here for the exact page of the bill.

terriels,

I found this from the Toledo Free Press

"Since no citation for this claim (or, for that matter, any other claim on that page) is provided, I searched the issue’s text for “equipment” and “training.” Rather than finding any such language as this, I learned that, according to Sec. 4117.08(C), SB5 does not “[impair] the right and responsibility of each public employer” to “(8) Determine the type of equipment used and the sequence of work processes,” and, “(9) Determine the making of technological alterations by revising either process or equipment or both.” More to the point, Sec. 4117.08(F) states, “Notwithstanding division (C) of this section, equipment issues directly related to personal safety are subject to collective bargaining.”

It doesn't appear to me that bargaining for necessary equipment related to safety is restricted. Did I read this wrong?

All the idiots do is watch TV, they don't know how to think for themselves. I am a cop but not part of a union, if I thought it meant less Police out there I would vote no but I know better.

I think marc misunderstands my position. I can't be fooled with a 30 second sound bite of a fake 911 call that is running in Ohio on about every station I listen to. I honestly want to get past the fear bull shi. and understand how this will cause less policemen and firemen to be available in an emergency. I've done all the research I can and I just want to be sure I'm not missing something.

You've given me another reason to vote yes on issue 2. You can't explain to someone who would really like to know how it will decrease the number of first responders by not allowing the union to bargain with benefits, rather you insult me for asking.

Does it suck being grumpy all the time?

Also if you are going to respond to me please do so with the reply button under my post. Good day brainless.

marc huff

All your petition states is that there is 1.3 million people in Ohio that are as ignorant as you. Once again, explain to us stupid people how this will lower the amount of first responders and teachers etc.

Hey Marc. The right have their own guns to enforce the laws and hoses to protect their houses. So why pay someone else the job they can do for themselves? And who needs a bunch of kids with book learning? :)

yeah they hate to see me when there having the big one...

first your listening to kasick who bankrupted a fortune 500 business and said that it's not wall street it's main street that ruining the country those stupid police and fire and teachers and nurses and construction workers.....if you believe that then why does anyone listen to you your wrong....plain and simple

u2mac your parents stupid too. because stupid doesn't fall to fall from the tree....you pissed yeah....56 36 margin in ohio the people that work for a living side with the others that work...us....kasick duh 90 percent of police and fire were republicans smooth move kasick.....not now....

leeches and blood letting yes volunteers good idea....ha ha ha

See, 4 replies and not one coherent answer as to how not allowing unions to bargain with benefits will cause a decrease in the number of emergency personnel.

I really hope as poor a job as you do defending this that you are not one of the spokespersons for the group against this. I mean honestly you posts pathetic. Fear, smears, name calling and outright lies. BRAVO!

Let me ask you, ARE YOU JUST READING AND POSTING THE GARBAGE YOUR UNION LEADER GAVE YOU?

Mike7,

The Jobs bills, which are being threaten with filibusters by the GOP Senators would be funded by a tax on the second million of a taxpayers income. So it is a tax on some of the 1% of taxpayers.

Yeah, who need police, firefighters or infrastructure? If you have a hose, fight your own fire. Don't worry about law when you need a cop. Who cares about that bridge that falls down. (FYI, the Chinese can have better bridges and roads and infrastructure, but who cares if they beat the US in everything.) Just keep government out of my hair and keep my taxes low. Let the rest take of themselves. (Sarcasam all the way!)

I think the Unions need to go to China so the workers there will be paid like we are here in the states.
Then see what we will end up paying for all the goods from there.
Why do you think most of the companies from the U.S. relocated their companies there in the first place.
No E.P.A. No O.S.H.A. and no unions.

That's right. Let's be just like China. Dirty air, no safety for workers. Matter of fact, let's just hand over our government to them now.

Mike7--the true reason companies went to China is slave labor wages!

"We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo by Walt Kelly

Used to live in Ohio 82yrs,Kasich has always been a Humpthy Dumpty, two faces and spoke out of his mouth at both times.Taft the rebub,was in Four yrs,didnt do a thingexcept one his allies,stole coins out of the treasury,like most rebubs.Who would teach kids,PATROL THE STREETS,PROTECT US and PROPERTY.You nickel and dime converts to psuedo-conservatism leave the voting rights with the unions,McDonalds,CHINA WALMART,wouldnt give you a sou, and wouldnt do the job i.e. teach and protect.I am a conservative,worked hard and paid for S.S. and retirement.LEAVE THINGS ALONE.DONT BUY ALL THAT TAKE AWAY CRAP,SO SOME GREEDY POLITICOS TO STEAL. PRES.HARRY TRUMAN WAS THE BEST PRESIDENT,he was a straight talking FARMER,NO BIGSHOT.

My mother who lives in Clark County, Ohio was watching a town council meeting somewhere in that state where they were saying if police and fire want better equipment, too bad. They couldn't afford it. If the old equipment was that bad, by it themselves. Hmmmm. So much for supporting the local fire and police, eh?

AGAIN, I haven't read anything relating this bill to equipment purchases for firemen and police. Stop trying to scare people and present facts. Or are you afraid if you present the truth people won't vote for it?

I'm an American who votes for conservatives generally. I don't think Rove is relavent in this discussion of who is best for the republican party. Personally I like Gingrich since he's the most educated and experienced of the group. I know, I know, he's got flaws but who D or R doesn't?

Well - my question about Karl Rove being relevant was just answered by the new CBS/NEW YORK TIMES poll which was taken between last Wed., Oct., 19 and yesterday, Oct., 24. Remember this was AFTER the debate AND the Piers Morgan interview. The group polled was a national sampling of likely GOP Primary and Caucus voters - I'll only give the results for most-talked-about three -

HERMAN CAIN - 25%

MITT ROMNEY - 21%

RICK PERRY - 6%

Old Karl certainly got it all wrong on Herman Cain! He said yesterday that Cain had seen his best days. WRONG!!

The person who will not be relevant in about 375 days is 1 Term 0bama. Get ready for another "Shellacking" libs - 0bummer has just hit is lowest strong approve number (18%) ever. Its getting worse. Surprised he went to a real University today. He has been going to Community colleges and K-12 schools. Did you notice the place was no where near full. Even college kids are against 0bummer these days. They see their older siblings have to move home after graduating from college because they can't get a job. Can't wait until Jan 20 2013. 0bama's last day in office.

I've read the legislation as best I can and haven't seen where it curbs pay. I have read that it will not allow unions to bargain with benefits. Correct me if I'm wrong.

My understanding is it cuts bargaining period. And to honest with you, teachers deserve the best. They are the ones training our children for the future. Yes there are bad teachers, but there are more good ones. Who do you think taught your doctor? Would you rather they be taught by one that is underpaid, not caring about their job? Look at China and the importance they are putting on infrastructure and teaching. Do you really want the US to be second rate to them? Just give up?

Phine,

Did you come to that conclusion through research or radio ads? If it was by radio ads may I suggest you do some reading. I haven't read where this bill will not allow them to bargain with pay. If you are a voter in Ohio, PLEASE read the legislation and then come to an understanding of what it means to you. If then you still feel it restricts all bargaining, by all means vote no. But PLEASE don't vote based on what you heard on the radio.

That would be bi-racial mans birth certificate.

McCain was born at COCO SOLO submarine base in 1936. His birth certificate was signed by a US Navy physician. Just FYI

LMAO....... thats just plain funny!

Yeah, because we can trust that government will treat them so well. Just like our vets, eh? Why in the world would they want to support their families?

Nonsense! This is America and Unions have as much right to negotiate as a group as employers do!

I'll make a deal with you: I'll stop regurgitating what hippies say if you stop regurgitating Rush and FOX talking points!

you on your union lunch break....i don't argue with people that obviously don't know anything about the fireservice or police ...i live the reality ever day i don't have to watch it on t.v. or read about. it ....when 97 % of firefighters are voting no i tend to see that as a trend especially when most are conservatives voters....oh me no pay raisees 6 years 5 holidays given back a cost savings day...half of our apparatus gone half of are people gone...pay of new hires below the city average income.....i don't see the world from a computer screen like you i see it at three in the morning outside your house with people trapped knowing that its my responsiblity to save someones live and if that means risking mine that's cool......i don't ask for medals i don't ask for pay i ask that you who don't know @!$%# shut up and let me do my job...not the politicians...

i see it at three in the morning outside your house with people trapped knowing that its my responsiblity to save someones live and if that means risking my that's cool......

*Standing O*

Thank you for your service Marc!

i ask that you who don't know @!$%# shut up and let me do my job

I second that motion!

Ok marc so I take it you are a fireman. PLEASE explain how taking away the ability to bargain over benefits will cost you your job. I challenge you to do this since I just don't think you can.

No fear mongering just the honest truth. IF you post the honest truth you must mention that this bill only restricts bargaining on benefits. Pay can still be bargained.

Carry on from that point.

Also, if you are against this and it is because you belong to a union, Be A Man and admit to that. There's nothing wrong with standing with your group. Just don't use fear to scare old people and people in high crime areas to vote with you. I just don't think you can win if the facts are presented.

you know the only thing that burn my butt is that kasick is dissing the jobs of police an fire do that's not right no matter what party.....

i'm not worried about my job @!$%# im worried about going home in the morning ,,,,and it's my responsiblity to make sure the other 3 guys go home to their wifes and kids.....let's do some math....when i go in a house fire...i have 3 minutes of water....with kasick cuts to cities my water supply is 7 minutes away.....it's 1100 degrees and when your water runs out you toast...plus if i cant knock down the fire you lose your house.... and everything in it...... i know you conservatives dont believe in science do you know math..... their some facts @!$%# not you spectators

Come on Marc, I haven't heard John Kasich "diss" one fireman or police officer or for that matter a single teacher. You are correct that it would not be right for him to do so if he had which he hasn't. Had he done anything close to what you claim, it would have been in every paper in the state and posted in bold font with red border that reads BREAKING NEWS OHIO REPUBLICAN GOVERNOR DISSES POLICEMEN AND FIREMEN.

Since I've not seen a headline like that, I'm pretty sure it hasn't happened.

Marc,

More posts with fear mongering and VERY LITTLE FACT. Do you only have 1 pumper? You must be in a rural area to have water that far away. I'm lookin to the south and I see smoke. Is that coming from your head?

Don't you call in other depts when a fire is that large that you can't put it out with the equipment you have on hand? I live in a small town and we've had 3 other stations respond to large industrial fires. You mean you can't do the same? Or how about a tanker and pumper? Even our small town has a tanker. Hell we have 2