Looks like the American people are beginning to realize that Barry’s class warfare on “millionaires and billionaires” and “Wall Street fatcats” is just a dodge to try to escape the blame for the economy being placed squarely where it belongs: Washington D.C.

Almost two-thirds of the people surveyed blame the federal govt for the dismal state of the economy, with just 3 out of 10 people blaming Wall Street. A majority of the people surveyed call the economic system “fair to them”.

The poll also shows that the OWS clowns claim that they represent “the 99%” isn’t supported by the actual facts with 6 out of 10 saying they don’t know enough about them to express an opinion and 15% saying they disapprove of the movements goals.

Gee…. You would never know these facts from reading the lefty liberal nonsense posted here on FR.

Who woulda thunk it??

From Politico:

Poll: More blame D.C. than Wall St.
By: MJ Lee
October 18, 2011 06:16 AM EDT

More Americans blame Washington than Wall Street for the country’s economic problems, a new poll shows.

In a new USA Today/Gallup survey, 78 percent of those surveyed said Wall Street deserves “a great deal” or a “fair amount” of blame for the poor economy, but even more - 87 percent - said the same about Washington.

On who is more to blame for the weak state of the economy, 64 percent of people chose the federal government, while just 30 percent pointed the finger at big financial institutions.

Asked whether individuals felt that the economic system was fair to them, 54 percent said it was fair, while 44 percent said it was not.

The survey, taken on the weekend of Oct. 15-16 as the Occupy Wall Street movement neared its one-month anniversary, also examined how Americans feel about the protest, and the majority of people indicated they didn’t know enough about the demonstrations to express an opinion.

Of those surveyed, 22 percent of people said they approve of the movement’s goals, while 15 percent said they disapprove. More than six out of 10 people, 63 percent, said they “don’t know enough” about the movement to lean in either direction.

Asked about the way the Occupy Wall Street protests are being conducted, 25 percent said they approved, while 20 percent said they disapproved. Again, a majority of people, 55 percent, said they didn’t know enough about the movement to express an opinion.

Stop whining, Feisty Redhead.

I had comments collapsed as did other conservative bloggers.

And, the Pew Research study covers only the last five months.

Sooner or later the adoring MSM was bound to notice that the emperor had no clothes, and begin to evaluate President Obama on the basis of his ability to govern.

Not a moment too soon, either.

Kudos to the Political Director of NBC News.

Chuck Todd is doing a good job, isn't he?

A National Security threat like no other. The b*stards stole Barry’s brain!!!

OUCH!!!!

Obama's teleprompter, podium stolen in Va.

A van containing President Obama's teleprompter and podium were stolen from a Virginia hotel parking lot on Monday, according to NBC12 in Richmond.

The truck was parked at the Virginia Center Commons Courtyard Marriott near Richmond before the president's scheduled Wednesday appearance in Chesterfield, the station reported. In addition to the teleprompter, $200,000 worth of audio equipment and presidential seals mounted on Obama's podium were inside the stolen vehicle.

Stop whining, Feisty Redhead.

Are you talking to me about whining bag boy? lmao

Who peed in your Cheerio's this morning little guy?

OWS = idealistic brats who have never had to stand on their own two feet + professional leftist agitators who will stir any pot put in front of them. That combination has given us "patriots" that defecate on police cars, sing chants of "f*** the USA", inspired paragons of democracy such as Vladimer Putin, Hugo Chavez and Communist China to support them, and even dusted off that old revolutionary tactic of desecrating the American flag.

And President Obama and the Dems want to embrace these losers? HA, what a pathetic joke. Nothing speaks more to the electoral desperation of Obama and his Democratic buds than their enthusiastic alignment with these incoherent mobs – mobs fueled in no small part by the president's incessant insistence on playing the devisive class warfare card.

But that's all part of the grand re-election plan. The only way Obama can win in 2012 is to distract attention from his record of failure, a record that includes pursuit of policies that have contributed mightily to the sad state of the economic recovery and its lackluster job creation. Rather ironic, eh? The OWS folks are being used by the very same political leaders who are largely responsible for prolonging their current plight in the first place.

Shameless. But so typical of this president.

It’s on & poppin’ now!

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSzXgiZSTwScPMF5YeITTMgCtySUfE9ALzZ3ghiWa0-PF6AuEbHkg

May this year be your best ever.
I hope all your birthday dreams and wishes come true.
Not just a year older, but a year better.
Here's to another year of experience.
A simple celebration, a gathering of friends; here is wishing you great happiness, a joy that never ends

Thank you Fiesty for being my friend.
===========================================================================

The President Got out the Lickin Stick to RepubliCons!!!

I loved the way our President makes the republiCons look stupid.

Now, it turns out that the Republicans have a plan, too. I want to be fair. They call — they put forward this plan last week. They called it the ‘Real American Jobs Act.’ The ‘real one’ — that’s what they called it — just in case you were wondering.

“So let’s take a look at what the Republican American jobs act looks like. It turns out the Republican plan boils down to a few basic ideas: They want to gut regulations; they want to let Wall Street do whatever it wants. They want to drill more. And they want to repeal health care reform. That’s their jobs plan.”

"Maybe they just couldn't understand the whole thing at once, so we're going to break it up into bite-size pieces," Obama said RMOFWL, LOL, LOL, LOL

Our president said republiCons don't have to answer him.

RepubliCons have to answer to the people for turning down 1.9 million jobs.

Obama made his pitch for a jobs bills before an enthusiastic crowd of about 2,000 people at the Asheville Regional Airport. It marked the beginning of a three-day bus tour through North Carolina and Virginia

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700188844/Obama-begins-bus-tour-in-NC-to-promote-jobs-bill.html
===================================================================================

63% support President Obama's J-O-B-S BILL and 100% turned it down.

The President is so good with the Congress critters who act like children.

Mitt Romney rolling in douugh.

Mitt Romney said....“I don’t like temporary little Band-Aids.” So while he’s paying sufficient lip service to focusing on the middle-class, the actual policies Romney is advocating still adhere to the GOP’s traditional trickle-down model.

A joke is a very serious thing...Winston Churchill QUOTE

Eating money is no Joke!

Look at them, hugging and eating money like Cannibals while rubbing and sucking their corporate-raider money.

"Slammin Bentley doors,hoppin out of Porches Poppin up on Forbes list."

Sorry " my man Mitt you can't talk about the baller in the hood anymore You da man .
http://payload.cargocollective.com/1/1/41722/1078617/hoodrich_0.jpg

Should be a nice attack ad.

http://fastcache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/7/2011/10/romneybainbros.jpg

Mark, Domenico: All of this about the Republican candidates is interesting (well, maybe not), but guys, you missed the big news!

Happy birthday, Feisty, the person who brings style, panache and fun, not to mention knowledge to First Read!

Going to be a fine party at the Dew Drop Inn, and let's see how many people can make Feisty's day special! Starting with our right wing friends! In 3,2,1....

From what I have read and heard Romney wants NV to jump in early because he wants to knock out the other candidates before voters have a chance to really listen and look at the field. Don't know how much of that is truth or speculation but it makes sense. His poll numbers have been stagnant for a year, he stays within 23-25% support despite his debate performance, despite GOP establishment support. The quicker he can win in early states, the less chance voters have time to change their minds.

As usual, the telelprompter nonsense spouters have arrived; that's so old. May it was a republican who stole the WH telepromter. Too bad it was recovered soon after thus thwarting the GOP plans to take away the microphone from President Obama.

Ron, Feisty, Backhouse Navy or somelib seems to lead off or write about the OWS and the ‘We Are The 99%’ crap almost everyday.

We Are The 99%?

Pardon my French , but are you guys … stooo-ped?

99% of Americans don’t join a mob to block everyday people trying to suck it up and get to work so they don’t lose their jobs and hassle people going about their own everyday business of taking care of their families ….

99% of Americans don’t crawl up on police cars, squat and take a dump …. provoke police to the pepper spray point …. go out to be among 700-800 to get arrested … fly the American upside down, fly flags with sold out on them, trapple the flag …. Sing F*** the USA! …. Anti-capitalism …. Anti-Jews ….

The OWS has the endorsement of Obama …. And the American Nazi Party …. And the Communist Party USA …. And Vladimir Putin …. And Communist China’s government.

I realize George Soros provided free pizza and free condoms is not as severe as 19 guys flying airliners into buildings – but aren’t they attacking the very same American institution as Al Qaeda did? Just a thought.

Anyway, this ain’t “The 99%!”

Most Americans realize that Wall Street didn’t create the debt, spend trillions of tax payer money – borrow $4 billion a day, Wall Street doesn’t pass legislation.

Most Americans realize that Wall Street may have some rats, but it is the federal government’s job to control the rats – Government needs to do its damn job.

Ron and others wax nostalgically about the 60’s protests …. Someone even brought up the “four dead in Ohio” tune …..

You guys kidding? It didn’t work back then either. 58% of Americans blamed the students of Kent State for that needless, stupid tragedy while 11% blamed the National Guard. 31% had no opinion or were simply to kind to express how they really felt about the morons.

And wasn’t there an election in 1968? Who won? Wasn’t it called a landslide?

So you guys go ahead, keep celebrating these morons, heck - tell Obama to hook the Obama Bus up to these guys – Go For IT.

lol, Feisty.

Just pointing out that your collapse martyrdom isn't exclusive, that's all.

Cool your jets, darlin'.

Joe in Albany, "Washington" consists of three branches of government, one of which is a bicameral legislature. How does all the dissatisfaction flow the President's way? This is a Beamonesque leap to conclusions!

When you've really got nothing to say, you can always say "teleprompter".

Happy Birthday Feisty, hope your day is as special as you are. Wishing you many years of good health and prosperity. Thanks for all you do, you are a treasure to us.

Joe in Albany

Looks like the American people are beginning to realize that Barry’s class warfare on “millionaires and billionaires” and “Wall Street fatcats” is just a dodge to try to escape the blame for the economy being placed squarely where it belongs: Washington D.C.

Joeey, do you know of any other places to gather lies besides GOPolitico?

OUCH!!!!

Obama's teleprompter, podium stolen in Va.

Your secret is safe with me. Promise I won't rat you out.

Happy Birthday Redhead.

We may never agree on anything, but we can agree you are a year older.

ABO 2012

Fiesty, didnt the government bail out GM too? Dont all you progressives give Obama credit for saving the auto industry? If GM got a bail out and under your theory of BofA owes us taxpayers something and shouldnt be earning revenue and making money, shouldnt GM be selling cars to US taxpayers for less? Should I go into the GM dealer and say I want my taxpayer bailout discount? Do you realize how ridiculous your argument is when extended like this? Isnt the real issue that the government shouldnt be in the business of bailing out industries? Not that the industries should be prevented from earning revenue? Further shouldnt you be blaming Durbin and Warren for the incredible lack of financial understanding? Taking an earning stream away and thinking that the banks wouldnt have to earn the fees another way is no different than telling GM your no longer allowed to sell a car in which you make a profit on service warrantys and then being surprised that the sales cost of the car went up or the cost of getting your car serviced at the dealer went up. I think your anger is misplaced and should be aimed at your progressive brethren's lack of basic financial understanding.

Bill, Fairfax VA

OWS = idealistic brats who have never had to stand on their own two feet + professional leftist agitators who will stir any pot put in front of them.

Oh, my. Bill is throwing a tantrum over the fact that the Occupy Wall Street movement is finally drawing some not totally negative news coverage, even if it doesn't have a well-funded TV network to hype it like the Tea Bag movement had Fox News.

BTW: Some of those "brats" appear to have gray hair in the videos I've seen. I think Bill's sweeping generalization of who's taking part in the protests may be a little misleading.

Joe in Albany -- First the people are smarter than some give them credit for. Indeed the blame for the economy lies with our legislators.

We will see how many give up the silly spin on using a teleprompter as Perry uses one as well.

Mixed Bag:

Sooner or later the adoring MSM was bound to notice that the emperor had no clothes, and begin to evaluate President Obama on the basis of his ability to govern.

It's always good to get an update on what's going on in Bag's fantasy world.

Feisty--happy birthday! I enjoy reading your posts, and also seeing the TPGOPers get their knickers in knots over them! Keep it up--hopefully we awaken others to keep our country free from the tealiban-inflicted form of Sharia Law! Here's lookin' at you kid--from one redhead to another! May you enjoy many more birthdays!

Feisty, HAPPY BIRTHDAY... You have a great celebration. I am bringing sparklers to celebrate in style at the DDI party.

Bank of America's stock has dropped by over 50% this year. They continue to bleed money from losses in Countrywide's subprime mortgage portolio. Their profit this quarter was largely derived from a one-time asset sale of their stake in a Chinese bank. Far from being the poster child of evil corporate greed, BoA is struggling to survive.

http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/18/markets/bofa_earnings/

Kirk -- Once again small business lobbied for relief from the fees banks charged them to accept their card. They won, so are you arguing against small businesses now?

Who else has the song "Carolina on my mind".....on their mind??? LOL

How about Bank of America releasing their third quarter earnings yesterday?

We bailed them out & they SOLD us out to the tune of 6.2 BILLION dollars!

Raping the little people to the tune of $5.00 a month is sure to be profitable in the coming years...

Anyone who's critical of OWS is simply ignoring facts like the above which you've brought us today. That or they're actually IN FAVOR OF impoverishing the American middle class.

Happy Birthday Feisty.

Bob with numbers,

Nice little litany of misinformation ...

Your chain emails are getting more desperate every day. But keep posting....

Joe, dude,

1) the middle class LOST the war! This is no war it's a revolution.

2) For folks who hate Marxism you sure like to promote his tactics to "victimize" the rich. Look it up, Karl Marx invented the term "class warfare" i.e. a Marxist would claim "class war". If Obama literally says "class war" then he's a Marxist, if the rich or the advocates for the rich use the term then it's just...weird

3) OWS, it's only been a month, 22% is right nice for what will amount to a change in gravity. The agenda is OURS to set...now play nice!

Kirk -- Once again small business lobbied for relief from the fees banks charged them to accept their card. They won, so are you arguing against small businesses now?

That's exactly the case. He's arguing for Wall Street to destroy the profits of Main Street.

Happy Birthday Feisty. Hope you have a good day whacking the paid trolls.

The tea people are just jealous because the OWS is 10 times larger than their hate the President protests.

Happy Birthday Feisty. May you have many more years to educate us all on the facts and especially the folks that buy into the Radical Right crazy talk.

The BOA $5.00 fee is a sign of what happens when you regulate and tax businesses.

The taxes, fees and uncollected revenues just get passed along to the consumer level and the middle class pays. Seems simple.

So who do you expect will pay for the proposed Tax Increases on the super rich proposed by BHO?

I suspect you find out soon enough how many of these "Rich People" actually do own businesses and drive the economy if BHO get his way and imposes even more taxes on them. Heck, Buffet owns Geico doesnt he? I can see the new commercial for them. 15 minutes could save you 8% on car insurance.

Any tax imposed on them will just become a tax on you in the form of higher prices. When the GOP fights against taxes being raised, they are fighting for you, you just refuse to realize it.

ABO 2012

Happy Birthday Feisty and many more.

Obama in 2012.

Northstar with letters,

You have a copy of that chain letter?

Couldn't refute anything, huh? Couldn't even reframe it?

You're not very good at this are you?

Joe in Albany, "Washington" consists of three branches of government, one of which is a bicameral legislature. How does all the dissatisfaction flow the President's way?

______________________________________________

Auntie: You and I both know that Barry and the FR lefty liberals would be taking all the credit for an improving economy touting his brilliant policies. When your policies fail to improve the economy, you get all the blame. As Spanky says. Presidentin' ain't easy.

Good morning newdayDAWNING...RETURNED

Happy birthday, Feisty, the person who brings style, panache and fun, not to mention knowledge to First Read!

Going to be a fine party at the Dew Drop Inn, and let's see how many people can make Feisty's day special!

You betcha, newday. All the righties are conjuring up organizers' images, from my kinda town, Chicago. Belive me she did it. They are in lockstep tryin to compete.

I saw that disgusting link from that southern whacko about Herman Cain. You don't suppose he is representative of the "silent majority"; and for that we add another reason Herman won't be neither the nominee or President?

Obama/ Biden 2012

The BOA $5.00 fee is a sign of what happens when you regulate and tax businesses.

That such comments don't even cause us to blink anymore just illustrates how crazy and unhinged the Conservative Movement has begun. If you get gouged by a bank that's too big to fail it isn't because that's the nature of an oligarchy, it's because we have too much regulation. If you die from eating contaminated food it isn't because our food inspection process is inadequate, it's because we have too much regulation. And on and on.

Which is why today's Conservatives have much in common with the campus Marxists of the 1970s. In their ideologically-driven minds Conservatism never fails, people fail Conservatism.

Oh my, there goes Houston again trying to put lipstick on one ugly pig. Can't refute the facts, so just spin them and slime the messenger while you're at it. So typical of your bunch, carry on.

Obama's teleprompter, podium stolen in Va.

It's Watergate all over again. Somebody tell the afternoon posters what that means. (Remember it's the over 50 crowd who post during the day, according to a poster last week :)

Here's a hint: Republicans are heavily into dirty tricks. Break-ins, push-polling, and phone-hacking (see NH, convictions for Republicans re-routing calls for Democratic GOTV hotlines on election day.)

Joeey, do you know of any other places to gather lies besides GOPolitico?

__________________________________

Bev, you aren't very bright, are you. The data I quoted is from a USA Today-Gallup poll. Politico was just reporting their results.

BTW, Politico is routinely quoted on FR by the same NBC reporters whose a$$es you FR lefty liberal's routinely pucker up and kiss. I just don't think they would quote a source they believed were "liars". Sounds like you think they would do that. Politico was also considered credible enough to be an NBC News parter in a Presidential candidate debate. I think I'll continue to consider Politico a credible source as long as the FR reporters and NBC News thinks so.

Bank of America $5 fee equals: Transparency! Thank you Government!

Now i walk... and that my friends is Capitalism with a Nutrition Label!

No High Fructose Banks fees for me!

Bob with #, Meet you back here at 9pm CDT. I am off to work.

Will respond in more detail at that time.

Now don't stand me up, ok???

"As Spanky says. Presidentin' ain't easy."

Yeah, Especially when you're dealing with brain-dead Republicans with a scorched earth policy ready, willing and (perhaps) able to incinerate everyone from the middle class on down.

Bill -- Well we agree on this.....you said:

Bank of America's stock has dropped by over 50% this year. They continue to bleed money from losses in Countrywide's subprime mortgage portolio..

Hope you have been very busy at work!

Amen, John. Preach it! If people don't like the $5.00 fee, they can change banks. There are many to choose from. I don't use a debit card because of the fees they have been charging. I use cash, check, or credit card. If enough people refuse to do business with the banks charging the $5.00 fee, they will be forced to change their policy. It's all about the market, right?

Iowa has set their Caucus for Jan. 3rd, this means that N.H. should set their Primary for Jan.10th. Once this is done, I say, let's light this candle and get this party started. The sooner this election is over next year, the better it'll be for all of us.

Bill in Fairfax: You think channeling Spiro T Agnew is going to make OWS go away?? The Tea Party is reasonable but OWS is "idealistic brats"?? What's next...calling them commie long-hairs getting their orders from the politbureau?could you be any more irrelevant?

Go to it OWS. Real Americans are with you.

Bill, Fairfax VA

Oh my, there goes Houston again trying to put lipstick on one ugly pig. Can't refute the facts, so just spin them and slime the messenger while you're at it. So typical of your bunch, carry on.

Excuse me, but your calling the OWS people "brats" has nothing to do with any facts. It's just the usual ignorant name calling that you're so fond of. The Wall Street protesters ARE the messengers, and you're sliming them because you can't deal with the message.

NorthstarDFL

Bob with numbers,

Nice little litany of misinformation ...

Your chain emails are getting more desperate every day. But keep posting...

NorthstarDFL,

That litany is always so liberally littered with typical jocular right wing nonsense. I'm not sure if you should encourage his drool. Apart, from it displaying his ignorance, it's not good for his mental health.

OBAMA BIDEN 2012

http://ametia.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/obama-biden-2012.jpg?w=150

Happy Birthday Fiesty!

How can obama be president again without his podium and his teleprompter?!! Stolen teleprompter leads to obamas defeat by a landslide!! ROFLMFAO!!!!

John,

The fact that you can continue to think you can force a business to eliminate a revenue stream or reduce one of its revenue streams without it creating a new means to replace that revenue it the crazyness of the left.

For some reason the leftists think they can impose rules on private enterprise and they just have to absorb the costs and take it. They dont, never have, and never will. The costs will always roll to the consumer level.

This bank fee is just an example. Raise taxes on the rich and you will see more examples very quickly. Revenue will be raised alright. It will just be the little guy who pays it.

So the rhetoric of demonizing the rich, and only taxing the super wealthy may seem like good politics to BHO and his supporters, ANY tax increase will be felt the most at the consumer level. And in an economy like we have now, that will only further the decline of the economy. There is no way a business owner will take a revenue hit without finding a way to replace this revenue. That is why they are rich.

Why is it that the left cannot be gouged by a bank and say "why are they charging this fee?" and come up with a reasonable explanation other than "they must be greedy"?

Why cant you look at the cost of goods you buy and attribute its cost to the government regulations, paperwork and burden rather than greed?

It works both ways and there is a balance. Some regulations are needed in certain areas. But if these are excessive then the costs start reflecting these added burdens. This liberal administration has pushed regulation and burden on business to new highs. That is why businesses are fleeing to more tax and regulation friendly places of manufacture. Even China is being viewed as a more business friendly environment for US companies.

Just wait until (if) the added costs of Obamacare really start to hit. Maybe you will see the point then. Businesses are in business to make money. Keep throwing up roadblocks and added costs and regulations, they will still make money, just somewhere that your roadblocks cannot reach or they will pass the added costs on to the consumer.

Why is it today the Liberals cannot see that businesses do not exist to fund their projects and plans?

ABO 2012

Raping the little people to the tune of $5.00 a month is sure to be profitable in the coming years

Are the little people to little to close their account and move their money to another Bank? Seriously, if you don't like the charge go somehwere else it is that easy.

The Wall Street protesters ARE the messengers, and you're sliming them because you can't deal with the message.

I'm still confused on what that "message is. I ask a question yesterday that never got an answer so lets try it again today.

If the OWS people could have one thing, what would that one thing be?

Dont carry it all and John B, I noticed both of you and the rest of the progressives totally ignored the comparison to GM and didnt advocate that we get a taxpayer discount for their cars. John B, I cant believe your statement regarding the impact when you regulate and tax businesses, that is the most fundamental statement of truth. Do you really advocate the nationalization of industries? I am not for or against small business nor am I for or against the $5 dollar fee. My point is that the market will dictate whether it BofA can compete with its debit card and still charge a fee. Its not like consumers dont have a ton of choices, such as pay with cash, pay with checks, go to a different bank that doesnt charge a fee, pay with a credit card. Yes small businesses lobbied because they didnt like the fee being inbedded in the cost to retailers more easily absorbed by the likes of WalMart making it more difficult for them to compete. Durbin and Warren thought these were hidden fees paid by consumers in the price of the products (although not really any different than the interchange fees paid to credit cards Visa and Mastercard paid by consumers in the price of goods) and wanted more transparency by reducing the amount banks can charge. So what did BofA do but create the most transparent fee they could just what Durbin and Warren said they preferred. Not sure I get this issue.

By the way, with GM since we are giving tax credits to buy electric cars like the Volt, shouldnt you be even more incensed at GM stealing from taxpayers as look how profitable they are now and they were bailed out. Shouldnt we be telling GM you must breakeven on your cars and give US taxpayers a discount on the cars? John B, I am now wondering if you even believe in capitalism

Many thanks to all of you for the warm Birthday wishes!

I consider myself one lucky lady to be part of the amazing liberal First Read Family!

You are ALL invited to the Birthday bash over at the Dew Drop in on Friday!

There will be plenty of *popcorn* & your favorite cocktails go around! ;o)

PS: Nashville Fan - if you're out there, Happy Anniversary to you & your handsome husband! ;o)

PPS: Clara, KC thanks for the Birthday Card, I'm still cracking up! Brazillion? LMAO!

We will see how many give up the silly spin on using a teleprompter as Perry uses one as well.

Um, this is a really BAD comparison, it just made President Obama look even more incompetent then we already think he is, considering you can't get much worse than Perry.

I think I'll continue to consider Politico a credible source

Oh my!

ARLINGTON, Va. -- Politico says a reporter has resigned after editors determined she had plagiarized stories about transportation, most recently from a New York Times article.

Editor-in-chief John F. Harris and executive editor Jim VandeHei said in an online note that the stories by Kendra Marr "borrowed from the work of others, without attribution, in ways which we cannot defend and will not tolerate."

Politico says a senior editor received an email from a Times writer Wednesday pointing out similarities in stories in the two publications. Editors say on Thursday when they compared the articles and six other pieces by Marr, they found "troubling similarities to work earlier published by others."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CD0QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.huffingtonpost.com%2F2011%2F10%2F14%2Fpolitico-plagiarism-scandal-kendra-marr_n_1010232.html&ei=9pedTtusEeumsQKUy63RCQ&usg=AFQjCNHX8XAcuIBUjHZpxv1LvTy8roFyLw

What ever you do - don't stop believing... lol

First Read could do it's self a favor & distance themselves from this kind of 'source'...

Happy Birthday Fiesty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bill Fairfax from WSJ online this morning regarding B of A:

News Alert

from The Wall Street Journal

Bank of America swung to a third-quarter profit and the bank posted a surprise increase in revenue after a prior-year period when it was hammered by a sizable write-down.

Bank of America reported a profit of $6.23 billion, compared with a year-earlier loss of $7.3 billion. On a per-share basis, which includes the payment of preferred dividends, the bank reported earnings of 56 cents compared with a loss of 77 cents a year earlier. Revenue improved 6.6% to $28.45 billion.

Also for the telepromter people - I have seen videos with Reagan using teleprompters. So lets give up on that one please - it's just that President Obama is so much better at using it!!

Obama/Biden 2012!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.brainyhistory.com/days/october_18.html

Looks like nothing really important or significant happened on October 18th. The most important/significant thing I saw was the Yankees winning the 1977 World Series in four games.

Most Americans realize that Wall Street may have some rats, but it is the federal government’s job to control the rats – Government needs to do its damn job.

which is why the tea-party mantra is "DE-regulation"...

x

First Read could do it's self a favor & distance themselves from this kind of 'source'...

___________________________________________

The same thing would apply to the liberal Bible, the NY Times and its ace reporter Jayson Blair, wouldn't it??

Albany Joe:

BTW, Politico is routinely quoted on FR by the same NBC reporters whose a$$es you FR lefty liberal's routinely pucker up and kiss.

Admit it, Joe ... you're just jealous.

Bag Boy:

Stop whining, Feisty Redhead.

I had comments collapsed as did other conservative bloggers.

Is it okay to whine because none of my comments got collapsed?

I'm feeling left out.

But I did learn something valuable today -- what to do with the money under my mattress --

Investment dressing.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2011/moneymag/1110/gallery.spend_1000.moneymag/3.html

For a woman:

Classic sheath dress ($150 at WhiteHouseBlackMarket)Gabardine wool suit ($370 at JCrew.com)
Leather handbag ($322 at Bluefly.com)
A great haircut and color ($150)

I'm all over this. For hair color I choose purple. That ought to go over big with the Chamber of Commerce. ;-)

And a little fashion advice for the boys:

For a man:
Designer suit ($400 at Nordstrom Rack)
Custom dress shirt ($90 at russellandhodge.com)
Oxfords from Allen Edmunds ($279 at Zappos.com)
Leather messenger bag ($258 at Kennethcole.com)

Can't wait to see Bag Boy with his new official bag. ;-)

Albany Joe:

Looks like nothing really important or significant happened on October 18th. The most important/significant thing I saw was the Yankees winning the 1977 World Series in four games.

Okay, so you didn't think Randall Cunningham setting the NFL scramble record was a big deal?

How about the US determining that China was violating UN sanctions by helping Iran with some of their nastiness?

Well, okay, how about the NFL field goal record of 6 in a game?

Sheesh. You're pretty hard to impress, Joe. ;-)

By that measure, thinkprogress is equally credible.

_____________________________________

Yeah, right, get back to me after NBC News sponsors a Presidential candidate debate with thinkprogress.

Joe in Albany,

RE: your post #1.1

You are absolutely correct 87% blame Washington D.C. But, you failed to mention that their displeasure of D.C. politicians was aimed at the U.S. CONGRESS, not the president. I happen to agree with the TOTAL TRUTH rather than your partial truth. Sorry! Also, 78% blaming Wall Street banks/investment firms is no small number. I'd say 78% is a whooping super SUPER majority! It's really hard to get 100% approval for anything, because there is always one jerk who will oppose everything, know what I mean?

The article leading this thread is about the GOP debate, so why is the discussion about Bof A and poor Barry's media martyrdom? Oh, I forgot...Feisty owns this site and thus determines what the discussion will be. I'm so sorry for being disruptive and presumtive, oh Great One, especially on your birthday.

I'll log back in when you all get back on the intended subject.

For chrissakes Elise, dig into the numbers

http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/18/markets/bofa_earnings/

For chrissakes OWS lovers, take a look at what an objective liberal has to say.

http://www.tnr.com/article/politics/magazine/96062/occupy-wall-street-zizek-lewis?passthru=NWJhNDIyNzAzNmU5MWExYzI1ZmM0ZGU0MDJiZTU2MTk&utm_source=Editors+and+Bloggers&utm_campaign=4e29fdf4cc-Edit_and_Blogs&utm_medium=email

dsdsherm: Why is it that the left cannot be gouged by a bank and say "why are they charging this fee?" and come up with a reasonable explanation other than "they must be greedy"?

If BofA had raised their debit card fees and then posted a loss, it would be easier for people to understand.

But BofA raised their fees, then posted a $6.2 billion profit. And gave their executives $600 million in bonuses. That's what is not understood.

Why can the right not comprehend this?

For hair color I choose purple.

______________________________________

AM: given your politics, wouldn't deep blue be more appropriate??

You'd be the Marge Simpson of FR.

Cain will be destroyed very shortly.

the liberal establishment and the republican establishment WILL NOT ALLOW a conservative black man to be a presidential contender.

it is going to make the clarence thomas fiasco look like a pillow fight.

and it makes me sick to my stomach.

TEA

LoL -- one more important thing to do with the money under the mattress --

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2011/moneymag/1110/gallery.spend_1000.moneymag/6.html

Buy a new mattress.

Replacing a mattress that's over five years old will enhance the quality of your sleep as well as reduce back and shoulder pain, according to researchers at Oklahoma State University. You can find a quality king-size for about $1,000.

Good idea. The old one is getting lumpy from all that money under it, anyway.

Albany Joe:

AM: given your politics, wouldn't deep blue be more appropriate??

You'd be the Marge Simpson of FR.

Yep. Jealous. I knew it. LoL

If BofA had raised their debit card fees and then posted a loss, it would be easier for people to understand.

But BofA raised their fees, then posted a $6.2 billion profit. And gave their executives $600 million in bonuses. That's what is not understood.

Why can the right not comprehend this?

______________________________________________

So, take your debit card business elsewhere. Whining about BOA's fees and what they pay their employees is just useless noise.

Happy Birthday Feisty! This one's for you..http://youtu.be/m5TwT69i1lU

Kirk -- Did it ever occur to you I have no interest in the rest of your post. Quit with the B of A argument it's a done deal and the people will decide whether they like the fees or not. And BTW -- stop with the labels.....they don't apply to me.

Obama's teleprompter Stolen!

Department of Defense takes matter SERIOUSLY!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44943479/ns/local_news-washington_dc/

HAHAHAHAHA. Obama can't function without his teleprompter

_______________________________________________________________

MSNBC would NOT permit comments on this article. Too embarrassing for President Downgrade?

"Hiya kids, hiya, hiya." Froggy

First let me join everyong else in wishing Fiesty a very Happy Birthday. And I would also like to thank the Red-Headed Ranger for the information regarding the Pew report on the MSM.

Here are a couple of things to think about.

1. ALL the major news outlets are owned by MAJOR CORPORATIONS. They have more in common with the 1-percenters than with the 99-ers (ie: you and me).

2. It seems to me since they gave GBII a "pass" while he and his VP busily bankrupted this country and unnecessarily caused hundreds of thousands of deaths in two unpaid-for wars. The media "suddenly" finds it voice and wants to make up for the dereliction of their duties during the previous administration.

3. The news media that exposed WATERGATE and that saw Dan Rather BANNED from the White House is extinct. Trust me, I know. I've got the Peabody on my dining room wall to prove it. From top to bottom they have become corporate shills and "info-tainers", not journalists.

4. When FOX News is considered journalism and allowed to broadcast propaganda in place of news, you have to wonder what the profession is coming to.

These are sad, sad times we live in kids and I fear it's going to get darker before the dawn breaks on a new day in journalism or the country returns to it's collective senses and we see real statesmanship again in Washington D.C. I just hope we can weather the storm until then.

OCCUPY WALL STREET! TAKE OUR COUNTRY BACK FROM THE 1% AND SHARE THE WEALTH.

To paraphrase a line from my favorite movie: "Class Warfare is a terrible thing, and I think it's just about time we had some."

"Plunk your magic twanger Froggy."

America Held Hostage, day 291.

Obama/Biden 2012

Shouldnt we dig into the bonuses paid by McDonalds and Marriott too then? If you aggregate the bonuses paid by retailers or hotel companies to all of its employees, the numbers would be pretty big. Did you know hotel companies raised their room rates by almost 10% this year, gouging the consumers and then using some of that to pay their General Managers and employees at the hotels all the way up the chain bonuses? What were the total bonus numbers at Chrysler or GM this year? What about the total bonus numbers at any business what about Anna Molly's law firm? I wonder if her hourly rate went up this year gouging consumers using her legal services and god forbid the firm paid out bonuses as a result. Should we check it out and go protest her firm?

AM -- You said:

Sheesh. You're pretty hard to impress, Joe. ;-)

Speak with an Australian accent and see what happens! lol

Just some observations on the GOP race:

1) The Tea Party has effectively destroyed the Republican "Party of Lincoln." The Founding Fathers despised political parties of all persuasions, but eventually all joined one party or another. Populism (the proper name for both the Tea Party and the Occupy Wall Street groups) scared the pants off the Founding Fathers (even though theu sprung fom a populist movement themselves.)

2) What evolved was a two-party system. That worked pretty well as long as both parties were nearly at parity and the elctorate was reasonably well-informed. The problem with more that with three or more parties it is quite possible for a minority party to control elections or exercise undue influence that defies the will of the people. Consider: Party A has 49% of the vote, Party B has 20% and Party C has 31%. It is quite possible that a) Parties B & C could fragment a party and give elections away to Party A, or b) Parties B & C could form a coalition and take control away from Party A. Either defies the voters and effectively disenfranchises them. The Tea Party is doing exactly that except that they are forming a third party within the GOP. The result would be, if successful, a coalition that cannot govern.

3) The effective granting of "super-person" status to corporations has harmed, perhaps irretrievably, the American political process. The SCOTUS has actually created a corporate megalith that has all the "rights" of a person and none of the obligations. A corporation may now make unlimited donations to candidates and parties without revealing the names of donors. But those same corporations are still shielded from voter fraud laws because they are not a person. Very sad!

4) Dominionists are a big issue in this election. Dominionists believe that only a "born-again" fundamentalist Christian should be eligible to hold public office. Perry, Bachman, Santorum, Cain, Romney and Huntsman are all dominionists except that Romney and Huntsman belong to a church that believes that only Mormons should hold public office. This would mean no Roman Catholics, no Jews, no Buddhists, no Hinus, no Muslims, etc. Looks like the dominionists are building a serious problem into the GOP itself.

5) It is unlikely that fundamentalist (or even moderate) pulpits will support Romney because he is Mormon. Though Romney and Huntsman consider themselves "Christian," any Christian minister who is seminary-trained is faced with the simple fact that all "Christians" accept the Nicene (Apostle's) Creed as the over-riding profession of dogma. Mormons simply do not accept the Nicene Creed. I'm not saying I agree with this definition, but it is just a fact. In the South especially, Mormons are generally regarded as a pseudo-Christian cult. His religion could cost Romney an election.

6) Cain is truly bizarre. His 9-9-9 Tax Plan (lifted from The Sims V4 video game) would shift an incredible tax burden to the already seriously overtaxed lower half of the country in income. The lower half of the country already pays over 70% of all taxes and fees (not just Federal Income Tax) and Cain would raise that clost to 80% while freeing the wealthy of virtually all taxes. Cain's stated goal is to eventually replace all federal taxes with a 30% sales tax (not a VAT.) Cain's refusal to name his key advisors is also bad news. These things simply will not stand up to public scrutiny. BTW, the reason Cain was "successful" at Godfather's Pizza was that he closed down a majority of the stores, deffered many routine expenditures for years, and then left the company in a mess with fewer stores and massive debt and overdue infrastructure improvements.

Dont Carry it All--sorry for the label. I was expecting some response from the group that hates capitalism but cant seem to find anyone to tell me why if BofA is not allowed to earn revenue if they got a bailout from the US government why GM isnt required to sell us cars cheaper and not make a profit too.

Chris, several comments. Your points on conservative christianity are valid but not dispositive not reflective of how christians vote. It is very true that some but not all of the concern about Romney is his Mormon faith but some of the concern is that he has been a much more moderate GOP leader in the past. He gets criticized for flopping positions but most of that is to win the GOP primary rather than a true change in his moderate views. But conservative or fundamentalists are going to vote because they dislike the current direction of the country and are much more conservative financially too. You cant make voting predictions solely on religious factors. Its like saying that radical left progressives are going to not vote for Obama because he hasnt pandered to them enough. They are not going to change their vote. Fundamentalists christians are going to vote based on their views of economic positions and the failures of this administration more than religion so I dont see any impact to Romney if he were to win the primary.

Can you explain to me rationale on Cain. I dont like his 999 plan but it certainly doesnt shift an incredible tax burden to an already overtaxed lower half of the country. How is the lower half overtaxed? Do you mean on a percentage basis or absolute dollars? Besides federal income tax, the other taxes such as gas, sales, property, excise, payroll etc are all taxes for either services or goods that person is using such as education, parks, roads, cigarettes or funding for their future retirement and the lower half pays no federal income tax, how did you come up with that number? The lower half probably pays less than 25% of all taxes probably less. Where do you come up with this nonsense? As for Cains 999 plan, didnt the discussion of Obamacare start with fixing healthcare? Give Cain some credit for wanting to overhaul our tax system as it needs it he just did it wrong.

Hey Skippy -- Want to educate us again on why the House has to take up the vote first on the AJA????

A moment of irony:

Here we have the right wing complaining that no one really knows what the OWS folks are all about. Yet, they seem to know that they're just a bunch of dirty old hippies who want a handout.

This begs the question: How did anyone know what the Silent Majority was about? What did those silent baptized citizens want anyway?

Your right, it is government's responsibility to reign in corporate stupidity, protect national trade, and promote the common good. They stopped doing that. They started promoting the common millionaire and billionaire and large corporation.

And neither republican nor democrat has really done much about it. The dobbs banking bill was weak. The medicare bill is a pay out to insurance companies with only a few good things on it.

Our trade deficit is still making that big sucking sound of jobs and demand destruction. And no further from changing to some other alternate energy source to power the US. Oil is finite and will only increase in price as world population increase that particular demand therefore reducing more supply at an even faster rate.

Corporations have grown so big, smaller business unless a low over head service business, cannot compete. Therefore less job opportunities for a majority of people.

All Obama can think of is throwing money at it. He doesn't understand the system is broken, the economic cycle has turned into a spiral. So any money put into it doesn't stimulate growth here that sustains itself, it finds itself to the 4 corners of cheap labor and eventual in a few multinational corporations balance sheet later to paid to banks to pay those corporations massive debts off.

Instead of making a big strategy of trade restructuring, incentive domestic business on all industries. Utilize so many young who wont have a job otherwise to create some core of energy and transportation to assist in rebuilding roads, bridges, and build a better energy grid with more power plants via nuclear wind solar and sequestering coal plants-- could use the mass of new adults to enroll in this program like the military, but actually be used to build up America. Pay them E1-E3 wages with some supervisors getting E-4 to E7 wages. After 4-6 years of service they would get a similar GI bill to help pay for school so they aren't shackled to debt.

But I'm a dreamer I guess. Really I'm just sick of all the stupidity the same tired cries on both sides. The same stupid pointless debates about abortion, or the wonders of pot or even more juvinile crap like talking about a teleprompter or their religion.

Its just time to deal with the reality and start fixing it. Otherwise, the next 30 years will look like Sarajevo/Bosnia did in the 90's.

Ok so let me get this correct

1.) Tea Party = Rasicism / And the black guy they are supporting for President is crazy.

2.) Tea Party = Religious Zealots / Which is why the Mormon is in second place, right behind the black guy, and expected to be the eventual nominee.

3.) All news outlets are owned by BIG Corporations = That explains all the conservatives on MSNBC -Chris Matthews, Ed Shultz, Al Sharpton, Martin Bashir, Maddow, ex employee Olberman. Or maybe CNN's right wing nuts - Piers Morgan, Anderson Cooper, Wolf Blitzer. And we all know how John Stewart mocks the New York Times for their conservative tilt.

4.) Capitalism is a evil System = This message has been brought to you by UnitedHealthCare, health in numbers. I was also told it was a bad system by millionaire Kanya West. DOWN WITH WALL STREET. Unless you have a 401K, and then you might want it to not go down.

5.) Republicans want you to have dirty water, dirty air, and they want the sick to not get access to healthcare. = This is obvisiouly true, I mean republicans don't drink water, breath air, and never get sick so they wouldn't care about those things.

6.) OWS has goals = Everyone knows their goal is to.... um, wait its' coming.... Well they want something for 99% of us, what ever it is most of us should get it. And when they pass that bill, or change that law, or bring down those evil rich people like Bill Gates who dare give over 90% of their wealth to charity, when they do whatever it is they are trying to do, we will then all have jobs. Right? They are going to help the jobs situation right?

Speak with an Australian accent and see what happens! lol

LoL Then I'm in luck.

Because that's about the only foreign accent I can do. Being from the Midwest, my attempt at a British accent usually comes out Australian.

Or does this have something to do with tying Joe's kangaroo down? ;-)

"The Mormon interpretation of "the curse of Cain", or the curse of black skin ... identify the Black people of African descent as descendants of Cain."

Evangelicals can't vote for Mormons and Mormons believe that Cain, (the contemporary Cain), came from evil.

Perry has serious issues with his mouth and thought process.

Gets more humorous by the day.

Vote if you agree with me: anyone on this site who cannot refer to The President of the United States at least by his last name should be banned. Your manners are appalling. I may be an old fogey, but I was taught never to refer to anyone by their first name if I hadn't been given permission by the person in question. Also, it is just rude to call someone by a nick name they had when young and no longer use.

Special message to Bill, Fairfax - what happened to you?? I used to enjoy reading your posts because they were intelligent and well written even if I didn't agree with you. Name calling is just beneath you.

Bank of America made those profits selling Credit Default Swaps. Now get ready to bail those CDS's out next year with your public money.

Thanks for the Birthday wishes Cynbad & Skip!

That's one of my favorite songs thanks again for the dedication! ;o)

Kirk -- My point on labels is this.....I reply to posts based on my perspective of how I see things. It may or may not fit into a progressive viewpoint or any other viewpoint. It doesn't matter to me. I come here to read and discuss things I find interesting and appreciate the different viewpoints expressed here. It gives me perspective on the issues. Your use of labeling in most of your posts is an effort to prop up an argument and nothing else. Hyperbole also seems to be part of your bag of tricks as well. The challenge to you is can you write a post without using either?

Well I admit to labeling usually as a means to not call out people unless its a direct discussion. So I apologize but most of the conversations I have are with self professed progressives so its an unintentional slight. As for hyperbole, you are going to have to give me examples of that. I do respond back to people who embellish some fact that tilts their way by using that argument as an extension to another conclusion but give me an example? Do you think any of my reactions to John Bs or your anger at BofA was hyperbolic? If so you are going to need to explain that. In general, any time I ask questions that are uncomfortable for people like David Walker or John B such as can you explain to me why the progressive agenda wants to tax corporations how that isnt really a tax or burden on the middle class, I havent gotten one response. When I ask about capitalism and challenge them on some of their outlandish statements, its either personal attack or statements like yours your being hyperbolic with no example. Making claims that I am for the rich or I just dont get it or its Rovian tactics are pretty lame. I dont like Herman Cain's new tax proposal but when I hear David Walker claim how Cain's plan is destroying social security and explains incorrectly why and I show that, he says I am just trying to destroy the middle class. Lame accusations that are made against fiscal conservatives or the GOP are all for the rich and killing government spending flys agaisnt actual facts that make people lose all credibility. Have you seen the budget numbers for the year that just closed? Did you notice that all this talk about spending cuts and nothing was cut but everything actually increased and thats with a 21% increase in individual tax revenue. So this class warfare crap is just making things worse for everyone.

Kirk: Below is one example:

response from the group that hates capitalism

Who hates capitalism? Most here just speak to reasonable reforms on Wall Street and banks and if they cost a little more sometimes so be it. I will not speak for David, John or anyone else however. But I will say they speak for themselves just fine. Is it possible you do not like their answers? As for anger at B of A, no anger just the facts on why they raised their fees. The anger seems to be coming from you over the regulations that small business wanted.

Dont_carry_it_all:

Thanks, yes I can speak for myself. I have put Kirk on "ignore" As you and others have noted, he cannot make a point without using labels, as though labels somehow clearly, accurately, and concisely perfectly encapsulate a point of view.

What, for instance, is the "progressive agenda"? What is a "fiscal conservative"? (Given the fact that the national debt and deficit spending has been the norm for many, many years, I wonder where one might find this mythical beast. Grazing with the unicorns, perhaps?)

"The group that hates capitalism"? Who or what is that? What, for that matter, is capitalism? The "ism's" are merely constructs that exist nowhere in reality. What they share in EVERY instance is that when some bastardized version of an "ism" is put into practice, it is always run by human beings. What the leaders of these "ism's" share is a lust for power. Greed and control are integral parts of the pursuit of power.

Beyond that, I have pointed out time and again, that the notion of a "middle class" cannot be demonstrated statistically. There is an upper class and a lower class when defined by wealth. Class warfare has been part and parcel of the human condition since we began walking upright.

I clearly explained why Cain's plan will destroy Social Security. Kirk never showed otherwise. In fact, his argument goes like this: IF Cain's plan raises the same revenues as in the past............ Whoa there, big fella. That's the whole freaking point. It won't raise the same amount of revenue. I'd bet my bottom dollar, his Republican opponents at tonight's debate will tear him limb from limb on that issue and validate my argument.

The GOP is not the GOP I knew as a younger man. It has been co-opted by single-issue extremists: gunners, anti-choicers, anti-taxers, racists, theocrats and more. All of them have little in common but the label Republican, and oh how they hate.

GOP.borg - suicide by Republican.

Dont carry it all--first I was responding to John B's diatribe against BofA where he has over many posts indicated that BofA's fee for debit cards was exploitation and other negative words against capitalism. For me to call him on that and ask why thats so isnt hyperbolic

As for David, to put someone on ignore is basically the same as wearing panties in my book or taking your ball and going home. David has repeatedly attacked me indicating where are the facts and when I produced them along with cites, he either fails to respond or says you are now on ignore. I absolutely showed you where you were wrong on Cain's plan and even told you I dont like his plan but you were exploiting his plan for your personal agenda rather than sticking with the facts which you always say you want me to do. Your original premise had nothing to do with whether his plan raised enough revenue and so now that I proved you wrong originally its back to the embellishment. You certainly know that I said for purposes of your original comments lets assume the revenue is the same. I never indicated that his 9/9/9 plan raised the same revenue we were discussing the substance of his plan. Next, I said, if his plan doesnt raise the revenue, its easy to adjust as you make it a 10/10/9 plan or whatever until you get to the right revenue. The point was the substance and its impact on the economy not total revenue and you know it. As for social security, you didnt prove anything as it was your opinion not fact which is what I said all along.

As for fiscal conservative or progressive agenda, you certainly know what those mean so dont act dumb. The national debt and deficit spending havent been the norm for years compared to this president. Did you see the budget numbers come out today? Did you see that even with the so called agreements to cut back spending, there were no cuts anywhere and the deficit was over $1.3 trillion and thats with an increase in individual tax revenue by 21% after an extension of the bush tax cuts. So in 2007, the Bush deficit was $167 billion and $260 billion in 2008 with the financial collapse and this includes the wars etc and along comes Obama--spends trillions on stimulus, dramatic increases in social spending $900 Billion this year alone on 80 various welfare programs across all budgets and an 80% increase since he took office and you think his policies have worked? You think somehow the so called rich have not funded this huge shift in spending? Come on David wake up? And you think this is hyperbole?

David -- Ah...the Cain plan. A dynamically scored plan. In my book that means speculation without supporting evidence. Tax on rent, food etc. is very regressive and has recently been vetted by many including WSJ. No one likes it too much. Cain is not for keeping SS he likes the Chilean model. Something most have looked at and agree will not work here in the US.

Kirk -- See David can speak for himself and other than you disagree with his point of view you clearly lose the argument by the mere fact he does not want to argue with you. What's up with the "panties" comment.....hope it wasn't directed at me as a am a woman. lol

Cain is not for keeping SS he likes the Chilean model. Something most have looked at and agree will not work here in the US.

Last time I checked our model doesn't work here either.

What do they do in Chile? Does everyone in the country actually pay into their retirement system? If so, that might be part of the solution. Does the gov't there actually LEAVE THE MONEY ALONE and use it for its intended purpose. This could also be part of the solution.

Greg -- Even the Chileans are disappointed with the results. Very high fees something like 15% and they are unable to retire due to low funds. As Cain's plan would require the government come up with billions if not trillions to fund it it is a non starter.

Ha no not at you at all. Thats why I apologized to you. David can certainly speak for himself and I cant believe people even use the ignore button as to me thats a sign of weakness in of itself. You can always just ignore the post itself.

I didnt and dont like the Cain plan and I was fine with David's criticism when its left to what it might do or if he thinks it wont generate enough revenue etc. I would prefer to have discussions on topics and discuss the merits of the actual proposals without the partisan rhetoric because I can actually learn more that way. David and John both have a tendency to throw in each paragraph something about the plan being carried on the backs of the middle class. or the GOP is making everyone walk 3 miles barefoot in the cold in order to get food at the free food line and then beg for a 10 year old used school book to read for the 99% while the 1% eat Caviar. So I am guilty of responding with some embellishment of my own.

For the most part, I dont think you and I have had any issues and I respect your opinion. For example, when you critique the Cain plan you mention the regressive nature of a VAT or sales tax and also how it picks winners and losers. I agree and thats a very valid criticism without a class warfare aspect to it. Although I dont like the VAT, you can fix some of these problems by exempting certain necessities from the tax like food, shelter (rent), health care, etc which would dispropotionately impact the poor. What David refuses to debate and why he gets mad is that virtually 100% if not all economists would tell you that a corporate tax reduction while eliminating all loopholes and deductions of 9% would be a huge job creator and competitive advantage world wide. His view is that evil corporations dont pay enough and I always ask him how he can economically explain why the corporate tax and any increase doesnt disproportionately impact the middle class and he cant respond. Debates like that are what drive me not the posturing that of course I get accused of ha.

So again I apologize and hope I didnt offend you. Whats Dont Carry it all mean by the way? As you can tell I was lazy on my name

First Greg, if they contribute and leave it for its intended purpose that would be the equivalent of personal private accounts that Bush proposed which for some reason the democrats hate which I dont get either. As for Cain's proposal on social security, the current state we are in today, the government will have to come up with trillions of additional revenue to fund the unfunded liabilities because there is no money in the so called trust fund today. I certainly have no personal knowledge of whether Cain wants to abolish SS but I doubt it. But if the VAT tax raised the same revenue as the current payroll taxes, its a breakeven so I am not sure why all the anger regarding social security about his plan. There are good reasons to dislike the 9/9/9 plan but I am not sure social security is a valid one unless he came out and said as part of this plan, I am going to change current benefits or abolish it all together.

I was expecting some response from the group that hates capitalism

Gee Kirk, you're getting very cranky lately. That's the second time you've made that accusation today. As someone who's been in management for nearly 20 years and responsible for my own P&L for much of that time I'm just fine with capitalism, thank you very much.

What I'm not OK with is the excesses that come with unregulated, unfettered capitalism. That way leads to the capitalism of Dickensian England or Malaysia, a world with little but misery for the vast majority and riches beyond the dreams of avarice for the few who to whom attain all the advantages. It's the world to which the Koch brothers seek to return with their dreams of "Anarcho-Capitalism".

Teaming Capitalism with responsible regulation is the genius that made America great. It allowed a vibrant, strong middle class that became the engine of a great economy.

Now that engine is sick, fed sand by the Conservative war against the middle class. You show up here every day to feed it more sand, blissfully carrying the message of the corporate masters for whom you work as a financial consultant like some child who hopes if he polishes the silver and sets the table nicely he'll be allowed to sit at the adult table this Thanksgiving with the rest of the 1%. (0.1%, actually)

Ultimately the joke is on you. The harder you work to establish inequality in opportunity the less chance you'll ever sit at the adult table, as well as everyone else. That's OK. You're free to be a lap dog for the corporate jet set. I'll work to fight Conservative efforts to destroy fairness in society.

@Kirk,

I agree that one cannot predict elections based on religious factors. But I am old enough (and Southern enough) to remember the Kennedy/Nixon election. Basically Kennedy lost what was then considered the "Solid South" because he was Catholic. A great deal of this was because of venom broadcast from pulpits. Kennedy still won, but it was a squeaker rather than a landslide.

As far as the "rationale" about Cain, there really isn't one. While the right contends that 47% of all Americans pay no taxes, that is a completely made up number calculated using the number of people who file returns as a percentage of the estimated population. a) It included all people, not just adults ot of school. If you count only adults who are physically and mentally fit to work (mostly leaving out the very elderly, children and the severely mentally and physically handicapped) that number falls toi around 22%. b) But much more importantly that is only Federal income tax. Most taxes go to state and local governments. Most state and local taxes are extremely regressive (meaning that they are inversely related to percentage of disposable income) because that is the nature of fees (such as drivers' license renewal), property taxes, and sales and excise taxes. When you run the numbers on ALL taxes, federal, state, and local, the lowest 50% in income pay over 70% of all taxes. One reason that a substantial number of people do not pay federal income taxes is that many regressive taxes, such as property taxes, some fees, and sales taxes are built in to the standard deduction or are deductable if you file the long form. Before Reagan, it was almost 10% lower with the lower half paying only about 60% of all taxes, but Reagan pulled a good one on the working poor. He gave a small income tax break to everyone, a large one to the wealthy, and eliminated revenue-sharing which caused the states and localities to raise sales and property taxes to make up for it. Cain's proposal would have the lower half in income paying over 80% of the total taxes because it would add 9% to what they are already paying. I doubt that it is doable in that the working poor simply don't have the money to pay it.

Cain's proposal is not for a VAT tax. A VAT would be a sales tax at every level of production. At the oil well, at the pipeline, at the storage facility, at the refinery, again at the pumping station, again at the storage facility and finally at the pump. This mostly effects the companies that add value (and cost) to the product. A sales tax only effects the end consumer. There is a huge difference. Cain has actually proposed that 9-9-9 would only be temporary and that it would eventually be replaced with a 30% sales (not VAT) tax.

Another tax issue on which Cain is on the other side from the facts is illegal immigrants and taxes. Illegal immigrants pay taxes --- federal, local, and state. Much of it is payroll taxes, income taxes, and sales taxes. The difference is that they don't ever get to collect social security, the government just confiscates the money. Ditto for workmens' comp, and getting a tax refund. The governments just keep the money --- billions of it. If you combine this with other facts --- illegal immigrants are usually solo adults, with fewer than 1 in 12 having children or spouses with them ---- illegal immigrants are generally the healthiest democraphic and are far below average in use of health care facilities ---- illegal immigrants seldom use emergency rooms because of fear of the omnipresent ER policeman, etc. In fact, in Alabama, the current estimate is that the tough immigration law will cost the state around $120 million above the services they used. So the state will have to cut somewhere else to make up for the money that they routinely confiscate from illegals. Bummer. In that sense, I do have to pay for illegals.

And thanks for good comments. It is okay to disagree with people, especially if it is done with good manners and frequent questions.

Kirk -- No offense, apology accepted. ; ) Screen name means to share with one another and help each other. In other words don't carry it all we need each other. People first. Always.

John -- Nice post stating your position.

bob 188...I wanted to respond to your post #1.9, but I am now 94 posts below you. Will do it tomorrow am. where can you see it.

Chris, first your facts are incorrect. The IRS.gov statistic that is used by both fiscal conservatives and MSNBC last week is accurate in terms of tax returns filed not all the people as you suggest. They are not counting children or elderly who dont file tax returns in the 47%. I agree that many of the rest of the taxes such as state and local sales taxes, sin taxes, excise taxes etc are regressive but property taxes generally are not unless you live in California where there is a cap. But again you are incorrect in that the lower half pay 70% of all taxes because thats just not possible. You could take the entire income of the bottom half and apply it to taxes and in absolute dollars it wouldnt come close to 70%. The top 25% on an absolute dollar basis are over 80% of the consumption dollars which then pays all the sales tax. I am not disagreeing with the part of your post that says we need tax reform to make things fair and simpler but lets not try and make it seem as if the bottom half support government at all levels to the tune of 70%. Thats just ridiculous. I understand you explanation of VAT but I was assuming thats what Cain was proposing and not just a tax on retail consumption but I could be wrong.

As for illegal immigrants, your just wrong in your assumptions. I agree illegal immigrants pay taxes especially sales tax but in many if not most they are part of the cash economy not paying payroll taxes but I agree in many cases they are via false documents. But in any case under any economic scenario, they benefit from government services far more than they take in terms of education, health care, welfare, roads and all of the other perks that the rest of us get. They also depress wages across the board in low skilled labor, are the cause for the huge teenage unemployment rate as they are better and more reliable than hiring our teens to work. That said, I am not for kicking illegal immigrants out of the country and think we need to address this issue with more common sense than some in the GOP party.

John B, there you go again, starting with what you accuse me of all the time. You begin by trying to be reasonable but then have to editorialize and preach to the choir with your progressive anti rich sermons that serve no real purpose. The conversation started with your rant against BofA accusing them of exploitation etc. When I confronted you with that, you had no response but to explain to me how naive I am. Is that because you cant answer why its so wrong for BofA to ask for a revenue stream when told by congress they cant charge for a products use (debit card) via individual charges to retailers? You didnt answer as to why the same principle doenst apply to GM with its bailout. You didnt answer as to why McDonalds isnt evil when it asks for more to sell a hamburger or Marriott when it raised its room rates $10 dollars this year. Instead you ignore the things that dont fit your narrow view of success. Its easy to point out one bad CEO or a bad bank or a failed company without pointing out that they are such a small sample of the great and fine things being done by the vast majority. Do you use those same principles when critiquing your views on race? Look at criminal statistics do you think all black people commit crimes? What about unions? Do you think all union members are lazy because productivity in union shops versus non union shops are 20% less? Do you think all democrats dont pay taxes because Geithner and Rangel cant seem to do it correctly?

Actually John the joke isnt on me. I have the personal experience and knowledge to understand that self reliance and personal accountability create success not having the government attempt to level the playing field for me. I know that I will get somewhere easier and better if I do it myself. I dont look upon success as a nasty thing that deserves our scorn. I dont look at Steve Jobs and say see trickle down never works and he should be punished and made to give up all his billions because he has exploited the workers. I dont believe that government should be in the business of picking winners and losers in society (even though it always does) but we should be doing it ourselves on our own. Why is it that all of the immigrants want to come here and make it on their own but our own people dont want to do that but have it handed to them by the government? For some reason you think the US doesnt create a fair environment, I think quite the opposite in that its the ultimate environment for a meritocracy (you just dont like the results). Where else does a kid with talent from the inner city have the ability to become wealthy on his talents? Where else can a Steve Jobs, Bill Gates become billionaires based on their talents? Where else can an immigrant from any other country in the world move to Dearborn MI, Gary In, Chicago and open up their own dry cleaners, Subway, Dunkin Donuts, BP gas station and live the American Dream? What you want is a society where you dont work for it, there are no consequences for your personal choices in life? Where if you made a bad choice whether it be take a mortgage that you couldnt pay for, have a child as a teenager, not got to college, take drugs, or participate in detrimental financial behavior not really have any consequences and that the rest of us should bail you out or make your life more equal to the rest of us. Sorry John but I am fine at the table I am sitting.

Dont Carry it All--I like that meaning.

Somebodies got to prop up the tea people GOP republicans Houston. They have nothing, If they lose the media support they're toast. The media has to keep them relevant so the pundits will have something to rant about. Did anyone else see how read Joey's face was while he was getting his butt kicked by Axlerod this morning on his tea people GOP republican morning show?

Hi Houston,

So true. I have never accused this Radical Right of being the smart ones who are able to gather the facts for themselves.

The media likes new stories, not old rehashed crap that doesn't work.

What is the story?

Obama comes up with the same insipid plan that failed miserably. Heck the dems in the Senate didn't want to vote on it - took them a month to vote on whether they even wanted to talk about it.

Obama - The Proven Definition of Insanity would be a good headline, but they are way to kind and biased for that.

BTW - Bloomberg surveyed 34 economists just for grins and could only find two that thought Obama had a clue / that it would work.

bob-1805084

BTW - Bloomberg surveyed 34 economists just for grins and could only find two that thought Obama had a clue / that it would work.

Gee, it really must be tough on you liars that there's something like Google available to debunk your lies:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Obama-Jobs-Plan-May-Prevent-bloomberg-4122133367.html

President Barack Obama’s $447 billion jobs plan would help avoid a return to recession by maintaining growth and pushing down the unemployment rate next year, according to economists surveyed by Bloomberg News.

The legislation, submitted to Congress this month, would increase gross domestic product by 0.6 percent next year and add or keep 275,000 workers on payrolls, the median estimates in the survey of 34 economists showed. The program would also lower the jobless rate by 0.2 percentage point in 2012, economists said.

Houston!

Interesting article pointing out the fact that the corporate media apparently doesn't think it's important for the public to know that independent economists think Obama's jobs plan will create around 2 million jobs while they think the Republicans' so-called "jobs plan" will create ZERO jobs.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal/2011_10/thats_their_jobs_plan032865.php

Houston! great points as I said earlier the same thing. It's nice to know we are on the same page. Truthfully, so are most Americans as evidenced by what's going on across this land.

You'd think by now the MSM would get it

You know what a median estimate is?

And really .... Obama wants to spend a half a trillion to keep 275,000 on payrolls?

That's Obama 's promise?

Adding people to the government roles is not exactly a great jobs plan. The other so called jobs are all temporary construction jobs. So your adding more cost to a government that is broke, and adding temporary jobs that are usually filled by illegal workers. "Independent" economist is the most misleading bunch of crap I think I have ever read.

Beverly:

You'd think by now the MSM would get it

Oh, the media does get it. What they don't want is for the public to get it, and that's why they won't report it.

bob:

You know what a median estimate is?

Half greater and half less. Did you know that?

And really .... Obama wants to spend a half a trillion to keep 275,000 on payrolls?

All the money would not go to pay wages. The materials and equipment are a pretty significant cost of construction projects. There's also the return on investment on building bridges and roads that would be far greater over time than the cost of construction. It's funny how Republicans claim they adore "free enterprise" but they never seem to grasp the difference between an investment like bridge construction and wild spending like for a useless 3-trillion dollar war in Iraq.

The other so called jobs are all temporary construction jobs.

show me the report that states that infrastructure improvement has a negative effect on business.

and adding temporary jobs that are usually filled by illegal workers

nice red herring argument, where is the "logic" there?

"Independent" economist is the most misleading bunch of crap I think I have ever read.

translation: they aren't spewing the mindless political rhetoric you want to hear.

show me the report that states that infrastructure improvement has a negative effect on business.

It doesn't ... unless you are borrowing insane amounts of money, you are broke, you get downgraded .....

And then you ask to do it again.

Business has absolutely -0- confidence in this guy. No recovery till he's gone.

Actually ... it will start the night of the election, before he actually leaves office.

LogicRequired, by their nature, ALL construction jobs are temporary. But putting people to work will have a ripple effect. Unlike what the Republicans are proposing which will create no jobs, but it will increase profits and make it harder to breath.

My opinion - if the Republicans are sooooo convinced that the President's job plan will not work, and if they are primarily focused on his defeat next year, pass the bill and prove that it will not work and guarantee his defeat. Otherwise, they must fear that it will work.

MKM,

That strategy was tried with stimulus 1. You remember the the trillion dollar stimulus for shovel ready jobs that would help the economy not go over 8% unemployment. It failed and yet you people didn't learn and want to try it again only this time you only want to waste 450 billion. Try thinking of something new, you know what they say about people who keep on repeating the same failures.

bob at # 2.6, you ask.

"Obama wants to spend a half a trillion to keep 275,000 on payrolls?"

No, actually he wants to spend a half a trillion dollars to build a bunch of bridges, roads and schools, provide small business hiring subsidy incentives and extend unemployment insurance.

275,000 jobs is just icing on the cake.

Arguing against legislation that creates American jobs and enhances American economic strength on these American forums requires some ingenious misinformation. You've made an admirable effort.

LogicRequired, the stimulus only failed according to right wing die hards. According to economists, it did work and should have been bigger. But you’re sticking to the wrong wing talking point of saying it failed over and over until the gullible believe it.

michigan voter, I judged the stimulus as a failure based on the expectations that were given by the Obama administration. I don't care what some Monday morning apologist economist has to say.

Good point Logic, right wingers never pay any attention to someone who actually has some education and is trained to evaluate the economy.

bob at # 2.10, you say,

"Business has absolutely -0- confidence in this guy. No recovery till he's gone".

Pseudo-socialists believe that business needs government to stimulate confidence for a thriving economy. Any capitalist will tell you that business needs demand. Under the current conditions of high unemployment, business has more money than it knows what to do with, but there is no demand for their products and services.

No company in the private sector is willing to blow its own wad trying to prime the pump to create demand. The government is the only entity big enough to create a market for business products and services. Business will respond to supply that market, hire people to make those products, and the pump will be primed as those hirees will provide the demand for additional goods and services.

Business operates on demand. There is no demand or products would be selling. Ain't nobody selling or buying confidence, only goods and services.

@Greentimer, how do you explain the results of almost a trillion dollars in government stimulus? Remember what Obama said it would accomplish? It failed. No amount of revisionist history can make up for that. Government spending won't get us out of the mess we're in any more than government spending got us out of the great depression.

Consider this. The New Deal's various alphabet-soup agencies—the WPA, AAA, NRA and even the TVA (Tennessee Valley Authority)—failed to create sustainable jobs. In May 1939, U.S. unemployment still exceeded 20%. European countries, according to a League of Nations survey, averaged only about 12% in 1938. The New Deal, by forcing taxes up and discouraging entrepreneurs from investing, did more harm than good.

And what about World War II? We need to understand that the near-full employment during the conflict was temporary. Ten million to 12 million soldiers overseas and another 10 million to 15 million people making tanks, bullets and war materiel do not a lasting recovery make. The country essentially traded temporary jobs for a skyrocketing national debt. Many of those jobs had little or no value after the war.

So what got us out of the Great Depression, you ask?

Congress reduced taxes. Income tax rates were cut across the board. FDR’s top marginal rate, 94% on all income over $200,000, was cut to 86.45%. The lowest rate was cut to 19% from 23%, and with a change in the amount of income exempt from taxation an estimated 12 million Americans were eliminated from the tax rolls entirely. Corporate tax rates were trimmed and FDR’s “excess profits” tax was repealed, which meant that top marginal corporate tax rates effectively went to 38% from 90% after 1945.

It's also the state where governor is doing so poorly, she wants to suspend elections next year.

She's actually polling worse than Obama- so badly, in fact, that it does not look like her own mother plans to vote for her.

no joe, no bo, nj

It's also the state where governor is doing so poorly, she wants to suspend elections next year.

First I heard of this and unsurprisingly, nojonobo has twisted the actual story beyond recognition.

http://projects.newsobserver.com/under_the_dome/perdue_suggests_suspending_congressional_elections_for_two_years_was_she_serious

The Google makes the job of dissemblers and prevaracators like you more difficult, doesn't it?

As for her job approval, it's around 42%, which is better than the tea bag governors in Wisconsin and Florida.

https://www.nccivitas.org/2011/civitas-poll-perdue-sees-lowest-approval-ratings-in-nearly-two-years/

And none of this has anything to do with the subject of voter disenfranchisement, which nojonobo apparently approves for voters who don't vote the way she wants.

You failed to mention how badly Walker WI, Kasick OH, the FL governor, Hailey SC, the MI governor, the IN governor, I could go on but you get my gist no joe. These governors mothers changed their names and their fathers moved to Canada so they wouldn't have to be associated with them.

Houston, you are a little behind the curve. . .

I watched-and posted- Perdue's speech. There was no hint of humor in it- what you posted was spin put out the next day to try to cover her outrageous remarks.

"Heh, heh, just kidding" , did not work then- and it does not work now.

This was the deeply held feeling of a politician who is going down in flames. That it blew up in her face is just another sign of her incompetence.

But, do carry on trying mightily to make it appear to be something other than it was. It's all you and the dwindling number of die hard democrats have left.

Houston, why is it that dem voters are always so disenfranchised?

They don't the capacity to present an ID, they can't poke a hole in a ballot ....

Watch it yourself

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/09/28/nc_gov_perdue_suspend_congressional_elections_to_fix_economy.html

Now, maybe it's just me- but for any American politician to make such an outrageous suggestion should call into question their very suitability for elected office.

I'd feel the same way if she were a republican- the nation is bigger than any one politician, or any political party. I'm pretty sure a lot of democrats feel that way- but very few of them post here.

Here we have motley sycophants- as was proven by your google search- and presenting the one link that tried to put a positive spin on this. That it was buried in with many that, rightly, called her out on these comments says a lot about your independent thinking.

Kind of goes along the lines of "democrats=right; everybody else=wrong".

bob-1805084

Houston, why is it that dem voters are always so disenfranchised?

They don't the capacity to present an ID, they can't poke a hole in a ballot ....

One 90-year old black woman in one southern state said she was able to vote in every election during the dark days of Jim Crow, but can't vote now because she has no birth certificate or drivers license.

Give the pretense. One Republican pol in New Hampshire has already admitted that one of the changes in the voting requirements in his state was to keep students from voting because they tend to vote too liberal. It's obvious that these laws have nothing to do with stopping voter fraud, which is nearly non-existent. Their sole purpose is to destroy the democratic system of government and replace it with permanent one-party Republican rule. The Republicans seem jealous of the cushy setup the Soviet Commissars had for so many years.

The problem with college students voting at college?

Very often, they vote in person where they go to school- and vote absentee in their home states.

Asking them to provide proof of permanent residency is not going to disenfranchise them, a point with which majorities agree.

Like most other things, liberals are on the wrong side of this argument.

bob-1805084

Houston, why is it that dem voters are always so disenfranchised?

They don't the capacity to present an ID, they can't poke a hole in a ballot ....

booby trap,

You mean you don't know about Huckleberry Hound?

Huckabee jokes: Stop Issue 2 opponents from voting

October 14th, 2011

“Make a list… Call them and ask them, ‘Are you going to vote on Issue 2 and are you going to vote for it?’ If they say no, well, you just make sure that they don’t go vote. Let the air out of their tires on election day. Tell them the election has been moved to a different date. That’s up to you how you creatively get the job done.”

Ohio Democrats immediately pounced, accusing Huckabee of advocating “criminal activity.”

“Add this to the list of despicable tactics from supporters of Issue 2,” said the statement from party spokesman Seth Bringman. “These tactics include accusing middle class supporters of defecating in the Statehouse and, more recently, attacking a woman whose great-granddaughter was saved by heroic firefighters.”

http://masonbuzz.com/2011/10/14/huckabee-defends-issue-2-to-crowd-in-mason/

nojonbo:

Here we have motley sycophants- as was proven by your google search- and presenting the one link that tried to put a positive spin on this.

Once again, you're just making stuff up. The article I found was the very first link I came across about her comments on a Google page with the search terms "north carolina governor Bev Perdu". I didn't have to hunt for one with a "spin".

The News Observer is a N. Carolina organization and I have no idea what its political leanings may be. Of course, since the article doesn't support the spin that nojo wants to give it, it must be some wild-eyed liberal rag.

As for the joke, it sound like a joke to me delivered in deadpan style. I'll assume the governor of North Carolina knows that the US Constitution mandates that elections for Congress be held every two years. I would assume even Michele Bachmann knows that.

no joe, no bo, nj

The problem with college students voting at college?

Very often, they vote in person where they go to school- and vote absentee in their home states.

And exactly where is the evidence to back up this claim? You know that you're just slinging more BS. The jig is up, nojo. As I already said (and you ignored), one of the Republican pols behind the voter disenfranchisement in New Hampshire publicly stated that the reason was because students were "too liberal" to vote. The ONLY purpose of these laws is to assist the Republicans in achieving permanent one-party rule.

So, your contention is that Google gives you a different different search results?

Wow.

no joe, no bo, nj

So, your contention is that Google gives you a different different search results?

OK, there was one Daily Caller article right before the News Observer article I linked to. The Daily Caller article was BASED on the News Observer article that I referenced and has a link to it. But the News Observer article WAS the first link I came across just as I said. So what? Your accusation that I was frantically searching for some article with the right spin is a big fat lie.

You're just trying to revive a nontroversy that seems to have died over two weeks ago about a Democratic governor that's still doing better in the polls than the tea bag governors you favor. And your just trying to change the subject from the likelihood that NC will not enact Republican voter disenfranchisement laws as long as there's a Democratic governor.

As far as college students voting--we should make it easier for them to vote, not harder. Everyone should vote, and the sooner someone starts voting, the more likely they will continue to vote during their lives. Too many people sit on the sidelines and let others make the decision. Let's encourage people to vote, not discourage them!

So, your contention is that Google gives you a different different search results?

It's an established fact that Google and the other search engines and ads on some sites will differ based on your geographic location and any of your previous search history that has been captured. It's usually subtle, but someone who just came from the FoxNews page may get a different order of first page search results than coming from NPR or Huffington Post.

This is still in its infancy, but advertisers are trying to capture every move you make both in cyberspace and the real world via your debit card purchase, what commercials you watch, etc... The goal is to custom tailor your content on the web to keep you on the page where you will be exposed to their custom targeted ads. Higher income, you'll see more financials and ads for Lexus and BMW. Lower income, you'll see more sports, celebrity news, etc.. and ads for retailers like Wal-Mart and fast food places.

I don't like this at all. I value being exposed to material I wouldn't have chosen based on my world view or stereotypes of my income or ethnicity. But, hey it's progress, right? Business has the bucks and pull the strings. Until there's enough outrage for a web version of the "Do not call" registry your personal information is being collected, analyzed, and stored for current and future use.

Well Bobbyboo, you can always go to another site, perhaps you'd be happier there.

You beat me to it Gingerbread Mamma. If Bob is so unhappy with First Read maybe he can do himself a favor go do his reading somewhere else. Geeez!

Whether or not NC plays to the Obama campaign's organizational abilities has no more to do with a "party line" than Rick Perry's ability to raise money or Herman Cain's above-average speaking abilities, all of which have been commented upon in the media. Leave it to wingnuts to hallucinate liberal media bias where there ain't none.

maybe the missing teleprompter will render obama speechless! get ready to count "um...'s"

Dump obama, dump incumbents 2012

Boy no joe and American Citizen, you two are digging deep in your bag of of tea people GOP republican talking points. Those are so old even Frank Lunz has forgotten about them. You got anything new or are we going to have to listen to all the same old talking points.

Where were you no joe when Cheney/Bush was traveling around on air force one and air force two campaigning? Oh I forgot, if it's a tea people GOP republican doing it, it doesn't count.

No jo--you say "nobody likes what they see". Pretty broad generalization there. YOU don't like what you see, and a number of other people may be unhappy too. However, please explain the alternative--which Republican challenger has better ideas or policies than Obama? Which candidate will be able to get this deadlocked Congress to DO something? You can't just say "Anybody but Obama"--the Republican field is narrowing and becoming more defined every day. Damning Obama doesn't help me want to vote FOR a different candidate.

Well, Bethie, since you plan to vote to continue 9% plus unemployment, stagnant or shrinking GDP, taxpayer monies being used in a Dollars to Donors scam, foreign policy failures. . .

I see no point in trying to change your mind.

Go on over to realclearpolitics, and look at the poll averages.

Most people do NOT like what they see-and will NOT be voting for Obama.

NJNB -- You seem to think that the euro crisis plays no role in the world of economics.

Also you said:

Wolf Blitzer has an article on the bad news for Obama- a majority believes his plans for the economy will fail- despite a lot of people wishing they would succeed

That pole reflects the reality that Congress lost the ability to effectively work together. Most people understand why.

Nice NON-answer No jo. Does that mean you don't see anyone better?

I love how you assume how I will vote. I have voted on both sides of the aisle--a true independent. But I have to tell you, I'm disappointed so far in the current field of GOP candidates. If someone is going to win the WH, I want it to be someone better, not just someone different.

NJNB: nobody likes what they see

Please do not speak for me. The very polls you like to quote put the lie to your statement.

Maybe Rick Perry or Mitt Romney stole Obama's teleprompter. They use them, too. Perry can't complete a coherent sentence without one.

President Reagan was a media phenom, and he was well versed in the use of a teleprompter. That doesn't detract from or add to his policies or his speeches. It just means he was very good at using an increasingly important tool in any President's communications repertoire. Dwight Eisenhower was the first President to use one (though he did not do so prolifically), and pretty much every other President since has used a teleprompter for their prepared remarks... along with these Non-Presidents:

John McCain

Sarah Palin

Michelle Backmann

Newt Gingrich

Mitt Romney

Marco Rubio

... just to name a few.

Yea, I don't understand this "bash Obama because he uses a telepromter" bs. Every GOP candidate uses them, every president in my life has used them. Are you all just upset that the birth certificate thing didn't work, your just reaching for anything?

Next big thing will be bash Obama because he uses AirForce 1 to travel, ohh thats right, you already do!

No blo Joe,How can you say Obama's plans have failed, when none of them have been passed into law? The racists keep saying no.

Pat,

I guess you don't count stimulus #1 that cost somewhere between 800 billion to 1 trillion dollars a plan. Sure, don't count that trillion dollar stimulus that had to be passed or we were going to go over 8% unemployment.

That stimulus saved wall street and the banks and automoblie industry and the economy. You would have to have a brain to see that this worked well. Trouble with some is they can't see that not losing more jobs is a victory.

But of course the reason that passed with republican support was that it benefited corporations, free money, of course the republicans will agree to that. That is all they do, rip off Americans.

clever, White Collar Auto

Good question WCA -- why don't you ask Spanky?

Good Idea Don't carry, maybe I'll re-post it this afternoon after all the lawyers get to work.

Republicans are not too excited about Romney, but if he is the nominee they will all fall in line and vote for him. The question is whether or not Independents will vote for him. Considering the level of dissatisfaction towards President Obama's policies, regardless of how justified that feeling or perception may be, I think the 2012 election will be a lot closer than you think and could easily go either way. BTW, I am a Democrat and I MAY vote for President Obama. My final decision will be influenced more by who the GOP nominee is than what President Obama says between now and then.

Cain reminds me of Huckabee in 2008--likeable but not presidential. He may have business experience, but so does Romney, and Romney also has experience in the government. Romney, though, reminds me of Kerry in 2004--inconsistent on his positions and just not inspirational. Perry? Too much like Bush, only possibly worse. We can't afford another cowboy in the WH. I liked Huntsman, but he doesn't seem to be going anywhere~not conservative enough, I guess.

I guess one problem is that the candidates are so similar in their positions; it's like they're afraid to stand out (except for Ron Paul) and hold diverse opinions. They're like hostages to the far right. I'd love to see Romney stick up for his health care plan. I mean, he obviously thought it was a good idea when he was governor. It's better to have people insured than have a million kids uninsured (as they are in TX), isn't it? Well, we shall see.

I will only vote for Newt Gingrich.. The rest are no better than Obammy! All LIARS...

Bethie, it would be wonderful if Romney showed some backbone and defended his MA healthcare program, which is working quite well by the way, but he will not. Doing so would be political suicide for a person running for the GOP nomination, especially when you consider that President Obama used Romney's healthcare program as a model for his and that the GOP will make Obama's healthcare reform the centerpiece of their strategy next year.

The problem with Perry is not the number of uninsured kids in TExas, but his decision to extend in-state tuition rates to children of illegal immigrants, that decision is poison for anyone running for the GOP nomination. Ron Paul is, by far, the only one with enough courage to say what is on his mind, I don't agree with everything he says, but I admire his courage.

Yes, I guess we should keep American citizens (those who were born here) or young people who have grown up here and could be productive citizens, given the opportunity--I guess we should keep them UNeducated. Yeah, that's good economic policy. Wow, one of the few things that Perry has done right is the worst sin according to the GOP voters.

Where's the common sense? It is not common sense to have people be uninsured. If people get sick or have accidents and can't get rehabilitation, for example, they can't work and contribute to society. Then they may become burdens. It's like a double whammy. Isn't it better for people to get health care and be able to live longer, healthier, more productive lives? Excuse me, but shouldn't this be part of a "pro-life" agenda??

Are we going to become a country in which only some people have the privilege of being educated and/or of receiving medical care? This sounds like a wasteful way to run a country. The bill will come due sooner or later.

The teleprompter and presidential podium that were stoled in Virginia were not President Obama's property, they belong to the U.S. Government and, by default, to us the taxpayers. Most modern-day presidents have used a tele-prompter during canned speeches, but some do it better than others...

GOP - maybe this will placate you -- anybody but BHO or Bush. There, we can agree, see, it's not so hard.

What is it with you defenders of the dead wood we have as POTUS that you think everything has to be compared back to bush? Just admit the guy is a loser and needs to go and stop with the comparisons to make yourself feel better.

dom, what's your point? He can't keep track of government equipment? He can't get from point a to point b without losing something? He's a loser and you dems are going to have to come to the right conclusion sooner or later.

MR - it is now Obama's fault those things were stolen?? You are freaking ridiculous. He is supposed to watch the van 24/7? I feel sorry for you.

Air

It's his campaign, he's responsible -- oh wait -- I forget -- nothing is his fault, right? He's just an innocent victim everywhere he goes.

He's a bigger dolt than W and his IQ ain't so high.

Thanki you RavenFan!

I'm been meaning to tell you to stick around!

I really LIKE what you have to say! ;o)

Happy Birthday, Feisty!

Keep the great posts coming!

Feisty, GF,

There is not a day that goes by that I don't make time to "get the facts" here on First Read. I wish I could express myself as well as some on the boards.... but, I just try my best to "keep it simple".

Been kinda busy here lately.... wish I could make your BD Party... but I'm packing up to go to Jacksonville for the Ravens/Jags game Monday night :-)

I'll holla back later..............

no value.

Oh, yes. I want to take your advice and vote for someone after reading your disgusting rant about OUR president. Newt is hardly the moral compass I'd want to have in Washington. On the other hand, please vote for Newt. If he's the nominee, I'm sure Obama will have four more years. YES, vote for Newt!!

Please supply proof that Obama is a Liberal Socialist Muslim. Better yet, supply proof that Obama is Muslim and please don't use any of the BS from FAUX News or any other biased site that has been proven false. I won't hold my breath, though.

What a dip $hit

Pat,

May be the only time I agree with you. I actually do like Newt and he is the candidate of choice for me, but rants such as this do not advance his cause. And while I may believe BHO to be both Liberal and a Socialist, I do not believe calling him a Muslim has any bearing. I will take him at his word that he is not one, and even if he were, it is his policies and his agenda I have issue with, not his religion. And if I want to call him a Socialist or Liberal I will include an example to why I believe this, not just spew.

This goes the same for Romney. He can be any relegion he likes, and it has no bearing on whether or not I like him. I do not prefer him because he is too middle of the road, and I believe we can do better. Granted he would be head an shoulders above BHO, but still do nor prefer him and not due to his religion.

I would encourage BCOHIO to think before he posts. This is not a place to call names and make accusations you cannot back up with reason and expect it to advance your candidate of choice. It just makes you look the part of a fool, and your candidate a fool as well for having you as a supporter. Newt deserves better than that.

ABO 2012

Liberalism/socialism is a failure, capitalism gives people opportunity to do well if they try.

Socialist/communist countries are turning to capitalism and Europe is on fire because they are bankrupt.

James, the USA is not a socialist country and President Obama is not a socialist, in fact, his policies suggest the opposite. Don't confuse having social programs to ensure senior citizens have a pension and access to health benefits, social programs to help the poor, and healthcare reform that forces people that get insurance coverage with for-profits insurance companies with Soviet style socialism or the doctrine espoused by Marx and Engels.

NewBook,

"The leader that can bring the opposing sides together is the best candidate for our times..."

The right thinks this way,too. BUT, if and ONLY if his skin color somehow magically changes to the European color.

The only reason the right is so hellbent on NOT working with the President is...... the color of his skin and NOT the content of his character.

This is no secret or surprise to anyone with an inkling of common sense.

So, no matter how long and hard you people on the right try to disguise (or not) your hate for the President, we know how you operate. And in the voice of Rev. Al...."We gotcha"!

How do you explain Cain's performance thus far?

The facts are that MSNBC is right, the liberal plan of recovery is right. Fox is not a news channel but rather a right wing opinion channel with lots of fiction. The republicans are right for corporations only. They do not care about the majority of Americans. To bad the ignorant racists are letting their hatred of minorities get in the way of doing what's right for American PEOPLE, not corporations. These corporatists are using you buffoons to screw you over and you are to f---ing stupid to realize it. Thank God I have a great union job with great benefits and a decent retirement. All you republicans making less than $250,000 per year, good luck to you. I hope you enjoy working until you are dead.

Done nothing, huh? Gee, let's see, everyone has a chance at affordable health care, ok, that's nothing. Bin Laden, dead, ok, that's nothing. Persistently trying to get some kind of cooperation out of the Teapublican Party of NO, ok, that's nothing. Tell me something, how the hell can the man get anything done with people that are bound and determined to block everything he tries to do. You are finding fault in his saying he may not get the job done in one term, when to me, that sounds like he was facing reality because there isn't anyone Teapublican or Democrat that can rectify the mess Obama was left with. That's the problem, the Teapublicans were expecting miracles. Reality check, God wasn't elected President! Obama is just a man and doing his best. It's the Teapublican Party of NO that has been a roadblock for the past 4 years.

Can you name a President that did all what he said he would do at Inauguration during his first term? Second term? ALL

Moutainlioness--can you explain how Obamacare provides everyone a chance at affordable health care? It certainly provides a different delivery system to those who dont have insurance and probably (but not definitively) improves teh quality of health care to those who dont have insurance but it dramatically increases the cost of healthcare to the other 85% who already had insurance and most likely will dramatically reduce the quality of health care over time as we begin to ration care to avoid these huge costs increases. Whether Obamacare is a good thing is debatable but one thing is for certain is did not provide everyone a chance at affordable health care.

Wow, you and your husband sound like the rest of America. Did you two really think OBama could undo 30 years of republican screwing of this country in 4 years? Really? It took us over 10 years to get out the last depression and we had manufacturing then. Added that the republicans aren't even letting OBama's plans have a chance, as they have killed or ruined anything he has proposed. What he needs is majorities in the house and senate and rather than trying to reach out to the republican corporatists, as he did in his first 2 years, he just needs to ignore them like dip $hit Bush did for 6 years.

Pat, speaking the truth won't help you with some of the folks here. Twenty+ years ago, our manufacturing as a percentage of total GDP was 20-25%, it now its under 10% - please don't tell me republicans had nothing to do with that?

Mav, were you old enough to live through the Carter recession in early 80s? Thats when we lost our manufacturing base and it certainly wasnt the GOP who forced union contracts so high with no quality control so foreign countries mainly Japan could manufacture the same goods so much cheaper with better quality. Explain how the GOP was causing US corporations to lose so much money and go out of business because because of an inability to compete? I thought the GOP was in the back pocket of these same evil corporations? Such silly talking points its almost sad you guys actually believe this junk.

Kirk, are you old enough to remember that era? Carter was like OBama today. A smart man inheriting a crap situation. Our dear President and liar Nixon under his watch, took America off the gold standard, tapped into social security trusts, had no decent plan for dealing with the oil producing countries continued a war he said he was committed to stopping, and it took a few years but the results cost Carter a second term, then we got president dimensia, who screwed unionized workers (MIDDLE CLASS WORKERS), continuing Nixon's assault on the middle class of America and that class war, started by the republicans, continues to this day. And when the shrinking middle class finally tries to stand up and fight back, the republicans say they won't be part of any class warfare. Well of course they don't want to be part of any class warfare because they already won the battle. They have ruined this country for those who work for a living.

Sure he does. "I was a governor, a Wall Street businessesman, a candidate for president... and I'm a Mormon."

LOL - not much of a message, but he'll win the nomination. The others have no choice but to go after him tonight. However, the barbs won't "stick on Mitt". He'll just laugh them off, say something goofy and spew the usual nonsense about more deregulation and tax cuts and how he'd bring back the good old GWB days (minus the wars and financial collapse that we're supposed to conveniently forget) but not actually mention his name and he'll bring up Reagan, they always do. The other comical irony is that they all have a plan similar to Cain's 999, but won't give you specifics because the results would be similar to Cains...

James Douglas Morrison:

Takes a lot a nerve to say something like that, especially after Republicans crashed the entire United States Economy and have done NOTHING to repair their mistakes other than find others to blame for Republicans' incredible, horrifying failures.

Now Republicans are trying to sell THEIR followers on their new mantra"failures actually work, so let's do it again"!

We've never seen such big dummies like the Republicans who do nothing but keep re-playing their same old failed "make the rich man richer" techniques.