Have you noticed the right-wing "Uncertainty" mantra has all but disappeared? That's because the uncertainty is caused by the GOPTP No matter the proposal, they are going to kill it. We're seeing that right now with the jobs proposal of President Obama. More and more voters are seeing the obstructionism of the party of NO.

Let's stomp another right-wing mantra to death - REGULATION.. Corporate America, the Big Money boys, their shills, lackeys, and ignorant sycophants would have us believe that REGULATION is pure evil. If you believe that dead lakes, burning rivers, clear-cut forests, bankers who brazenly steal, filthy air, and poison food are GOOD - then yes, regulation is EVIL.

It is true, regulation can be a pain in the neck. It adds costs to the products and services we buy. Some times rules make our lives inconvenient. Some rules seem just plain dumb.

But there is a huge upside to regulation. The air in the Los Angeles basin is far cleaner than it was 50 years ago. Lake Erie is coming back. We are protecting endangered species. We hardly question whether our food and drugs are safe. We expect it - thanks to government rules and regulations.

We still have a long way to go. We treat the Gulf of Mexico as a dump. An almost inconceivable amount of pollutants from Colorado's Front Range, from the Dakotas, Ohio and southward all dump into the Gulf. The lie of "clean coal" persists. Groundwater is dropping precipitously, even as its being polluted thanks to fracking and chemical dumping. Of course, when you can't see it, it's not there, right? The world's largest garbage dump is the Pacific Ocean. The oceans are crucial for life on earth. See for yourself, or do we just continue to plug our ears and close our eyes. Look at this. This is what we are doing to Mother Earth. http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/oceanography/great-pacific-garbage-patch.htm

Those horrors have a very nice name - EXTERNALITIES. Externalities are costs that future generations will bear tomorrow, because Megabuck Monstrocorp and their stockholders wanted profits, right now. They poisoned us and pretended they didn't. Love Canal ring a bell? DDT, PCB's? Remember the Superfund? That's a taxpayer fund that cleans up the messes of Megabuck Monstrocorp and still the size of the mess grows. That's your shining example of the excellence of private enterprise. That's why they're so damned efficient. That's why they make their eye-popping profits. They make taxpayers clean up their destruction.

Restoring Mother Earth to an acceptable condition is going to be very expensive. Very, very expensive. Didn't I hear the right wing telling us about their concerns about our children and grandchildren? Well, we made the mess. How come we're making the kids clean it up?

If we insist that Megabuck Monstrocorp clean up its mess, the costs of their products and services will go up - quite a bit. (Quit sniveling right-wingers, this is about your children and grandchildren, isn't it?) However, it means many, many jobs. No, they're not going to be high-paying jobs. Clean-up is drudge work, but it's work, and it pays. Regulation means hundreds of thousands of new jobs.

That's just the blue-collar stuff. Once we take on the white shirt and wing-tip crowd, we will find their work is not nearly as sophisticated as they led us to believe. They add nothing to the economy - nothing. They simply manipulate numbers, gut industry, and pocket the change. Ask Mitt Romney. That's what these guys do. If it's not that, they're rolling worthless paper into pretty little bundles, selling them, and pocketing money that's stolen from taxpayers.

The rich will trot out their flaks and start screaming about class warfare. The left will trot out their nonsense about the death of the middle class. Folks, it is a statistical reality that there is NO middle class. There's an upper class and a lower class - that's it. There need not be an outright class war, but while it is late, it is not too late to demand an end to the destruction of the planet and to being dragged into perpetual servitude.

Herman Cain isn't going to survive the heat. The GOP establishment is going to go after him just like they did with Perry when he moved ahead of Romney.

Karl Rove will begin his character assassinations shortly, aimed right at Cain. You watch.

Be prepared Mr. Cain. Be prepared. They don't care what lies they come up with.

They don't care. And these are the guys Romney is beholden to.

They are bad, bad people.

And you Mr. Cain will not survive it. Your numbers are not going to hold. Rove won't have it.

He simply won't have it.

Of course I don't care. The Koch Bros. are going to be holding you together financially, which doesn't sit well with too many people in this country.

Bad choices in the GOP. Really bad choices.

Not a one of them cares about anybody but the wealthy.

All our institutions are broken. Greed will do that. And lies.

Senator Joe Manchin WV: A Democrat with integrity. If the Democrat party is to survive, it needs to put its backing with candidates who have the values of Sen. Manchin. I would support Sen. Manchin for President and I am a conservative. The party needs to move away from low lifes like Lawrence “I’m a Socialist” O’Donnell, Rachel “Butch” Maddow, Chris “Shemp” Matthews” and Ed “I’m a Fat Blowhard Who Needs B***Slapped” Shultz. The LWNJs on here and their constant lies, false proofs, name calling and ignorant rants do nothing but embarrass themselves and the Democrat Party on a daily basis.

WHEELING - Sen. Joe Manchin is calling on President Barack Obama and legislators on both sides of the aisle to stop playing the blame game and begin working together to solve the nation's jobs crisis.

Expressing frustration at what he sees as a "dysfunctional" and "chaotic" legislative process, Manchin said his vote to bring Obama's $447 billion jobs bill forward for discussion on the Senate floor was not a vote in support of the proposal but one to begin dialogue toward a reasonable compromise. The motion to advance the bill Tuesday failed.

And the leadership necessary to make such a compromise happen, Manchin said, begins in the Oval Office.

"This president has to take the side of the American people and not think about, 'Well, this looks better for a campaign ad in 2012, and I can make you look bad and make me look good,'" he said. "Why don't you try making the whole country look good?"

In Obama's proposal - a combination of roughly $175 billion in infrastructure spending and $270 billion in tax and unemployment relief - Manchin said he found both good ideas as well as components he could not support.

"I would not - and I repeat that, I would not have voted for the passage of that bill without the significant changes that needed to be made," he said.

http://www.theintelligencer.net/page/content.detail/id/560571/Manchin-Defends-Vote-on-Jobs-Bill.html?nav=515

Polls are becoming increasingly useless. They don’t make sense. Why would a majority of those polled agree with this bill while the same majority do not approve of Obama’s handling of the economy??? Congress polling is in the toilet. Obama’s polling is in the toilet. Tea Party polling is in the toilet. My head hurts.

The voices of reasoning in this mess are those who emulate Sen. Manchin – who really puts a scare into the LWNJs on here. Why would any American want a bill passed without debate??? We aren’t that stupid! I heard Steve “Obama Brown Noser” Rattner say this morning that Americans would want an imperfect bill passed now rather than fine tune it. What planet is he and others living on????

No one takes the time to think that attacking the profitability of corporations and force them to remove money from the revenue stream decreases their competitiveness and effectiveness. Technology has advanced to the point that if forced to corporations can eliminate jobs and reduce payroll, benefits and retirement expenses to compensate for less money in the revenue stream. What happens them to the millions more that will lose their jobs because you stuck it to the Koch Brothers, Wall Street, Hedge Fund Managers, etc. which gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling inside? For Christ’s sake wake up and pull your heads out of your . . .

I am about willing to concede that Obama will be re-elected – although I would never vote for him and support any one on the GOP ticket. It is an almost foregone conclusion that the House will remain in Republican control. So if the Congress remains divided, what is the reasoning for re-electing a POTUS who can't lead and confront his opposition with dignity and develop a coalition? If you believe that what is happening is bad for the country, why re-elect Obama? You would have to be a profound moron to believe that the Republicans in the House will change through some miracle.

The only way anything will be accomplished in the next four years if Obama is re-elected is that the Senate is under Republican control as well. Then compromises are forced like what happened to Clinton. That is when good things are accomplished in this country. You would also be a profound moron if you don't believe that as well.

All of your name calling, intimidation tactics, vile personal attacks will not change anything so why bother -- unless you feel that the only way to go through your day is wanting the daily stage of the U.S. government to be like those fake but trashy reality TV shows.

I find it fascinating how the media and both parties are working hard to undermine/marginalize Herman Cain. Reason- He didn't pay by the entrenched party rules of engagement, he poses a threat to both parties in that since he isn't one of the beltway players he's less likely to be sympathetic to their lobbyists and pet programs, and he's a self made entrepreneur with military experience, a couple of master's degrees, learned on the topics, and a good speaker.

It's obvious that both parties really want Romney in the debates and the election. He's a very liberal republican (big government, big government spending, big government programs) whom is both the prototypical Karl Rove "insider" seletion AND the democrats/media's selection because he's big government, big spending, big programs, and the healthcare program he developed for Mass is similar to what the President is proposing on the national level (sure there are a few differences- government covers everyone vs. needy) so he'll not be much of a fighter during the debate on those topics. So even if Romney was elected he'd likely align with more democratic interests. The republicans want to keep him because he won't upset their apple cart either.

Cain provides a challenge to the republican party because he isn't an insider, hasn't come up through the accepted ranks, and doesn't have to play by their rules.

I think it's obvious that people like Cain for Cain, not due to his race, party affiliation, etc. He's got a low budget campaign, but his positions are getting people interested. Good luck Herman.;

Perhaps the the Black walnut is really a nut.lack

MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell explains how Herman Cain's 999-plan would destroy Social Security and Medicare, and leave us with a 30 percent national sales tax. Bruce Bartlett, a former senior policy analyst in the Reagan White House, joins The Last Word to help us crunch the numbers.
http://thelastword.msnbc.msn.com/

=================================

Fox's Attacks On EPA Coincide With Republican Agenda

http://mediamatters.org/research/201110130004

Fox's Top 10 Lies About The EPA This Year

1. EPA's Job Is "Done"

2. EPA Is Implementing A "Job-Killing" Agenda

3. The Obama Administration Has Launched A "War On Coal"

4. Coal Plant Emissions Aren't Linked To Asthma

5. Air Pollution Limits Threaten "A Fifth Of America's Electricity Generating Capacity"

6. EPA Wants "230,000 New Employees" To Implement Climate Rules

7. Small Businesses Pay "$4,100 Bucks Per Employee" To Comply With EPA Regulations

. Obama Could Suspend EPA Rules With An Executive Order

9. Obama Administration's Vehicle Emission Regulations Are Unprecedented

10. EPA Is "Regulating Milk Spills"

Obama in 2012.

Ray, some CEO of some big bank said yesterday that he understands why there is a OWS. He admitted - we the consumers have gotten screwed.

There is also another business organization out there somewhere who are attempting to get business leaders together and dedicate themselves to running their companies with more integrity than they have in the past.

They admitted their practices have been terrible for the economy.

As far as the House, they don't bother looking at the Jobs Bill, yet today they are voting on abortion. They are sick sick people.

And as far as corporate America goes, the Koch Bros. are pulling all the strings -

"The Koch brothers are reportedly withholding their money (money assigned to the banks for U.S. debt relief) until President Obama is not re-elected to the presidency. They want the American people to "Believe" (wrongly so) that President Obama is responsible for the wars, the fragile economy, and the other ills of society. Brothers Charles and David Koch, with a combined worth around $35 billion dollars, are waging a war against President Obama. The Koch brothers are the majority owners in Koch Industries, America's second-largest private company with revenues of $100 billion in 2009, and 80,000 employees in 60 countries.

Koch Industries main source of revenue is from the manufacturing, refining, and distribution of petroleum. They are major financiers of the Tea Party. They also are providing money to run anti-democratic ads."

____________________

I'll stick with President Obama. Any day.

Aw gee, Ray......your conservative paranoia is showing. Open up your world let in a some light.

Just what we need for our struggling Country, 999. Send Cain back to his Pizza Parlor and tell him to just make Pizza's and leave Politics to the grown ups.

Obama in 2012.

Why???

The GOP questioning Eric Holder's timing on stopping a terrorist plot. So I question their timing on bringing out a job plan after the President's didn't pass.

Platypus Mouth Michelle Malkin is spewing her venom about Eric Holder and the President's J-O-B-s Plan. Why can't the repubs see the people favor it?

Raising Taxes On Rich Is Class Warfare, Raising Them On The Poor Is Good Sense

Republicans Ready Alternate Jobs Plan

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1216079626001/republicans-ready-alternate-jobs-plan/?playlist_id=86858

Joe,NY:

and he's a self made entrepreneur with military experience, a couple of master's degrees, learned on the topics, and a good speaker.

None of which qualifies him to be President, any more than being a war hero qualified John McCain or owning the Texas Rangers qualified George W. Bush or having a law degree, without any more, would qualify me.

Mr. Cain's plan has been exposed by numerous economists and tax specialists as nothing but a looming disaster for the middle class, as well as the working poor, and what is worse, he either seems to be completely oblivious to it, despite his supposed math genius, or he doesn't care.

The media has had a field day with Mr. Cain because he and his plan are pretty easy pickings.

One last word, though. I specifically take issue with your statement that Mr. Cain is "self-made." As Al Sharpton and others so eloquently pointed out the other night, Mr. Cain would be nowhere but for the sacrifices others made in the Civil Rights movement -- another thing to which Mr. Cain seems to be totally oblivious, just as conservatives in general are oblivious to how much they have depended on the tax dollars of others to make their own success -- from the public schools that we all pay for, to the infrastructure, to all the government assistance that is available to small businesses, and a myriad of other ways -- we are all responsible for each other's success.

How quickly Mr. Cain -- and apparently you, Joe -- forget.

If People REALLY like Cain, the donation numbers and dollars will prove us all wrong. Cain is a feel good vote for the Right, no doubt "bait"; but you can prove us all wrong for only the price of a medium pizza (no toppings) you can donate to Herman Cain today!

What's that? You like the way it smells but not the way it tastes? Buy one get one? Throw in a free liter of indignation? No Takers huh?

Seeing how the collapse patrol -- which Feisty gets mad at has hit me -- I have reposted. How do you go about getting restored??? Why censorship??? Doesn't agree with your point of view? Are you that narrow-minded??? @GM -- Your statement is meaningless drivel.

Senator Joe Manchin WV: A Democrat with integrity. If the Democrat party is to survive, it needs to put its backing with candidates who have the values of Sen. Manchin. I would support Sen. Manchin for President and I am a conservative. The party needs to move away from low lifes like Lawrence “I’m a Socialist” O’Donnell, Rachel “Butch” Maddow, Chris “Shemp” Matthews” and Ed “I’m a Fat Blowhard Who Needs B***Slapped” Shultz. The LWNJs on here and their constant lies, false proofs, name calling and ignorant rants do nothing but embarrass themselves and the Democrat Party on a daily basis.

WHEELING - Sen. Joe Manchin is calling on President Barack Obama and legislators on both sides of the aisle to stop playing the blame game and begin working together to solve the nation's jobs crisis.

Expressing frustration at what he sees as a "dysfunctional" and "chaotic" legislative process, Manchin said his vote to bring Obama's $447 billion jobs bill forward for discussion on the Senate floor was not a vote in support of the proposal but one to begin dialogue toward a reasonable compromise. The motion to advance the bill Tuesday failed.

And the leadership necessary to make such a compromise happen, Manchin said, begins in the Oval Office.

"This president has to take the side of the American people and not think about, 'Well, this looks better for a campaign ad in 2012, and I can make you look bad and make me look good,'" he said. "Why don't you try making the whole country look good?"

In Obama's proposal - a combination of roughly $175 billion in infrastructure spending and $270 billion in tax and unemployment relief - Manchin said he found both good ideas as well as components he could not support.

"I would not - and I repeat that, I would not have voted for the passage of that bill without the significant changes that needed to be made," he said.

http://www.theintelligencer.net/page/content.detail/id/560571/Manchin-Defends-Vote-on-Jobs-Bill.html?nav=515

Polls are becoming increasingly useless. They don’t make sense. Why would a majority of those polled agree with this bill while the same majority do not approve of Obama’s handling of the economy??? Congress polling is in the toilet. Obama’s polling is in the toilet. Tea Party polling is in the toilet. My head hurts.

The voices of reasoning in this mess are those who emulate Sen. Manchin – who really puts a scare into the LWNJs on here. Why would any American want a bill passed without debate??? We aren’t that stupid! I heard Steve “Obama Brown Noser” Rattner say this morning that Americans would want an imperfect bill passed now rather than fine tune it. What planet is he and others living on????

No one takes the time to think that attacking the profitability of corporations and force them to remove money from the revenue stream decreases their competitiveness and effectiveness. Technology has advanced to the point that if forced to corporations can eliminate jobs and reduce payroll, benefits and retirement expenses to compensate for less money in the revenue stream. What happens them to the millions more that will lose their jobs because you stuck it to the Koch Brothers, Wall Street, Hedge Fund Managers, etc. which gives you a warm and fuzzy feeling inside? For Christ’s sake wake up and pull your heads out of your . . .

I am about willing to concede that Obama will be re-elected – although I would never vote for him and support any one on the GOP ticket. It is an almost foregone conclusion that the House will remain in Republican control. So if the Congress remains divided, what is the reasoning for re-electing a POTUS who can't lead and confront his opposition with dignity and develop a coalition? If you believe that what is happening is bad for the country, why re-elect Obama? You would have to be a profound moron to believe that the Republicans in the House will change through some miracle.

The only way anything will be accomplished in the next four years if Obama is re-elected is that the Senate is under Republican control as well. Then compromises are forced like what happened to Clinton. That is when good things are accomplished in this country. You would also be a profound moron if you don't believe that as well.

All of your name calling, intimidation tactics, vile personal attacks will not change anything so why bother -- unless you feel that the only way to go through your day is wanting the daily stage of the U.S. government to be like those fake but trashy reality TV shows.

@Pat -- Some CEO of some bank said . . . So what???? You will always find some voice out there saying something. Then there is another business organization admitting . . . So what? Same thing. And no links.

So what if the Koch Brothers are pulling the strings? What does that have to do with the tens of thousand employees who are middle class Americans working there?? No compassion for them???

There is always some group of people pulling the strings of both parties.

Great post at 1.1, David Walker. It's worth noting that Conservatives are claiming new Nobel Prize winners Sims and Sargent vindicate their failed economic models. Funny, the winners themselves imply exactly the opposite here. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULJPQK5Y6rY

Since many will just attack without watching the clip I'll save some time. In the piece Sims and Sargent say that we got ourselves into this economic fix by "forgetting the lessons of the past" and gutting important regulations. They go on to state that we are failing to recover because our political authorities are in stalemate and Washington is incapable of taking any action.

In other words Supply Side economics is a failure and Republicans are keeping us in this nightmare with their obstructionist policies.

Correction should read... Raising Taxes On Rich Is Class Warfare, Raising Them On The Poor Is "NOT" I repeat "NOT" Good Sense.

Platypus Mouth Michelle Malkin is spewing her venom about Eric Holder and the President's J-O-B-s Plan. Why can't the repubs see the people favor it?

"Dems regain lead on generic ballot"

The latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll tells us that Democrats now lead Republicans 45-41% in the congressional generic ballot.

Really.

Hmmm...

In polling on the subject done just before the 2010 midterms (October, 2010), this same poll showed Democrats with a 46-44% generic lead over Republicans.

Democrats went on to lose a net of 63 seats in the House (and control of that chamber), and the GOP gained 6 U.S. Senate seats in the midterm elections...including the Illinois seat formerly held by President Obama.

Perhaps the the Black walnut is really a nut.lack

Bev, the $64K question is, which one of these nut jobs more closely resembles the new Ben & Jerry's flavor; 'Sweady Balls'? lol

VP Joe Biden Questions Whether Michigan City's Crime Could Rise Without Federal Help

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/10/12/biden-questions-whether-michigan-citys-crime-could-rise-without-federal-help/#ixzz1ad7f8prT

Apparently his wife, an employee of the salon, did something to piss him off. (From the looks of him she might have hid his workout videos.)

Anyhow it's just another day for the "Falling Down" crowd [Republicans]here in this country who think it's okay for the people to be unemploymed and without healthcare.

Ray, well doesn't that please you that they're looking in the mirror? Also, Alan Greenspan said he was wrong about deregulation.

There is much blame to go around. Yet the GOP is doing nothing. And you blame the president.

So what? Typical don't give a damn republican. So so typical.

The Koch Brothers are depending on you to not care. To look the other way. Most bad people need people like you.

Congratulations.

Anna Molly- I completely disagree with you. Herman Cain's parents were common laborers and he grew up in a very modest household. Yes, he did benefit from the civil rights movement to a point, BUT HE worked hard with his talents and MADE HIMSELF valuable to employers, GOT HIMSELF an education, he put the effort in to make himself an American success. I give him ALL the credit as if your premise held any value then every minority would be in the same position- wealthy and successful. Your statements don't talk about initiative, intelligence, work ethic, persistence, and self determination. Quite frankly, your statement is just about as legitimate as the college students protesting right now- Give me it all now, give me it all for free, let someone else pay for it for me........

Fine be partisan, but please give yourself an opportunity to think for yourself and question the basis of the topic.

You're going to have to prove that one, MB. By this time in the last electoral cycle all the news was already about how the polls showed trouble on the horizon for Democrats.

@Feisty -- I sure as heck don't prefer Neapolitan or Magnum. LOL!!!!

@Pat -- The GOP and the true blue dog Democrats are doing something. The are preventing a left-wing socialist nut job from ruining this country. Think Progress is a partisan rag. Would you believe my links if I were to post it from The Blaze??? Of course not.

When the MSNBC polls say Obama is trouble you all agree "finally" with MSNBC, but when they claim the Dems have a chance you say the poll is wrong???

I tell you what, I have never seen so many younger and uninterested people citing concern for politics since 2008. They claim almost unanimously that the suddent "uncertainty" is likely due to the Republicans (and I live in a conservative district). "UNCERTAINTY" not my words but very telling. Progressives were sleep in 2010, they'll show up fighting mad joyful at the polls in 2012. It's a fight folks, don't sleep!

Here you go Ray, courtesy of Think Progress:

The Wall Street Journal reports that economists are close to approving a professional code of ethics after being stung by criticism of ethical lapses that contributed to the financial crisis in 2008. Economists eager to sell their expertise have become susceptible to overlooking risk for the sake of lucrative consulting fees, but their bias generally isn’t known. Motivated by the scathing documentary “Inside Job” about the economic meltdown, The American Economic Association decided last January to consider creating ethical guidelines for its membership.

Again, do you consider employees of Koch Industries and others being attacked as necessary collateral damage when they have families to feed and clothe???? Are you that callous and narrow-minded not to have compassion for them??? These are people and I will ask that question everyday.

Actually, John B-

That data is contained in the current NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll release.

In fact, all generic congressional polling going back to 1997 is shown.

I don't have to prove anything, John.

I think the appropriate Ben and Jerry flavor for the GOP field is "Seven Loads and a Nut"

Pat, Boston, MA

"The Koch brothers are reportedly withholding their money (money assigned to the banks for U.S. debt relief) until President Obama is not re-elected to the presidency.

They had better re-think their agenda as they will probably be investigated for treason.

_____

I'll stick with President Obama. Any day.

So will I

So where is it? By now you know you'll be called upon to back up any claims made here.

Saying you don't have to prove anything is an expectation you'll be able to say whatever you wish and have it accepted at face value.

Quite frankly, your statement is just about as legitimate as the college students protesting right now- Give me it all now, give me it all for free, let someone else pay for it for me........

Fine be partisan, but please give yourself an opportunity to think for yourself and question the basis of the topic.

You've got nothing on me, Joe. I'm the "self-made" product of laborer parents and the public school system -- I'm a private practice lawyer who graduated high in her class, and pays her own way, and has always done so.

But unlike Herman Cain, and evidently you, I respect government and the necessary role that it plays, and even more importantly, I understand the interconnectedness of things ... and people.

If you believe I don't think for myself, just ask the liberals around here with whom I disagree as much as I agree.

Your presumption and condescension are both unbecoming and so typical for many of the conservatives I encounter out here. As soon as you disagree with them, they accuse you of being on the public dole and unable to think for yourself. Talk about stereotypes. There are a few conservatives out here, however, who know that nothing could be farther from the truth, at least in my case.

I respect their opinions, even when I disagree with them. Yours, not so much.

And now I'm off to work in my comfortable office in an attractive office park not far from my comfortable and upscale neighborhood, where I will help my private sector business clients deal with their everyday problems, for which I will charge them a fair amount of money that allows me to fund my own retirement and pay my own premiums for my health care, which is connected with a local world-class, public university.

See ya.

I told you where it is, John.

I've been factually accurate.

Prove otherwise, John.

You can't...you won't.

In new bombshell story, "Bloomberg Markets" reveals that Koch Industries sold petrochemical equipment to Iran and paid bribes in six countries

Koch Industries used the European offices of their subsidiary Koch-Glitsch to sell millions of dollars of petrochemical equipment to Iran in an apparent violation of the US-Iran trade embargo, as recently as 2007 - Koch Industries paid bribes in six countries from 2002 to 2008 to win business in Africa, India and the Middle East, comparable to similar behaviour of German technology giant Siemens (Siemens subsequently had to pay a $ 1.6 billion fine

http://politicalgates.blogspot.com/2011/10/in-new-bombshell-story-bloomberg.html#disqus_thread

=======================================

So the Kochtopulous is reaching I hope to prison

David Walker, another fine post today.

Joe, NY, Herman Cain grew up poor as he claims; worked hard as he claims but he did not get there by himself. President Obama grew up poor as well and did not get where he is by himself but Cain denies that; Cain claims that President Obama never lived "the black experience" which means he never read Obama's books. What bothers me about Cain is not his background, his race, his success--I respect his hard work to become who he is and say, well done. It is his denial of his own race, the denigration of blacks through his comments, he speaks as if they are less worthy than he and he does so to pander to the base of his own party; the fact that he says they were brainwashed simply because they choose not to be republicans. In my view, he has consistently turned his back on the difficulties that blacks had, particularly in the south where he grew up and went to school; the fact he ignored the treatment of blacks and that he willingly went to the "back of the bus" because it was easier. There is no need for him to have participated in the civil rights movement but to speak as if he thought of himself and others as second class and should just step off the curb to let whites pass because it was the easier path bothers me.

His 9-9-9 plan sounds simple but dig in the weeds, it is an economic train wreck that benefits the rich and punishes everyone else; it ends medicare, social security, unemployment insurance because he eliminates all payroll taxes for employer and employee; he wants to end all social programs meaning school lunch programs and food stamps for the poor, elderly and disabled and instead those people should just go to their town, their church and charities--that's what is written in his plan. Thanks, but no thanks.

Ray lotsanumbers:

These are your words: "The party needs to move away from low lifes like Lawrence “I’m a Socialist” O’Donnell, Rachel “Butch” Maddow, Chris “Shemp” Matthews” and Ed “I’m a Fat Blowhard Who Needs B***Slapped” Shultz."

That's towards the opening of your worthless post. What follows is at the end of the very same post: "All of your name calling, intimidation tactics, vile personal attacks will not change anything so why bother -- unless you feel that the only way to go through your day is wanting the daily stage of the U.S. government to be like those fake but trashy reality TV shows."

Hell, you basically collapsed the post yourself. You call people names, and then you attack people who call people names. Perhaps some very caring people collapsed that post because they couldn't stand to see you embarrass yourself.

By the way, why do you care about Rachel Maddow's sexuality? I'm sure she doesn't care about yours!

@David -- The liberal posters on here call public figures name day in and day out, so your reasoning is either flawed or hypocritical. The right needs to move away from its extremist as well. They embarrass themselves every day as well. Don't care about Butch's sexuality just calling them as I see them.

Come on Mixed - messing with John B is a waste of time.

John B is certain that Obama is working on the Buffett Tax at this very moment.

He really thinks such a thing is possible.

Possible like maybe the Easter bunny is real, or that the generic polls are valid, or that those same polls didn't show the same dem leads before the Shellacking last October.

Nope John B. and his increasingly dispondant band of libbies cling to poll numbers, but only when they support the one.

Hey AM - you say Cain doesn't have the experience to be Pres., but we got past that with the last one, right?

SECOND THOUGHTS: "Why Obama?"

WHY is Obama sending out his ACORN/OFA footsoldiers to "Occupy America?"

____________________________________________________________________

Obama's 2008 slogan "Hope and Change," Obama's 2012 slogan "Hate and Change"

So David Walker, how you like Feisty's posts?

She's fantastic because she never calls people names, or attack them.

Right David? And really you are familiar with these yourself. You have been banned for how may days here?

Can you just imagine - getting throw out of here, with the crap Feisty spews every day? You must be mighty special there David Walker. Well done sir.

Is it me or do these forums remind you of homeroom? I miss the 80's

Madison From NY

SECOND THOUGHTS: "Why Obama?"

WHY is Obama sending out his ACORN/OFA footsoldiers to "Occupy America?"

_________

In case you forgot there is no ACORN. ACORN was defunded.

www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32899618/ns/politics-capitol_hill/t/house-votes-defund-acorn/

=======================================

Why is the tea party going straight to hell?

If you do not trust the polls you can trust this, there are people from coast to coast joining the OWS protests, there will be a rally and protest in my city this Friday. Polls can be unreliable, people in the streets is a very tangible indicator, because they protesting against what the republicans have been selling, and it is the only thing they offer. Even if you don't trust polls a ten point swing in a month probably means something, and the fact that Obama raised more cash than the previous 3 months certainly does not indicate he is being abandoned, it indicates he is gaining support. He can thank Congress for his good fortune, since not one single republican voted for the jobs bill, wait to you see the numbers next month they will get even stronger in terms of polls and cash. Now republicans will likely fail at the only thing they really wanted, Obama will win another term. Welcome to Waterloo!

Not a chance Forrest.

But riddle me this - how many municipalities will fail before the election?

And the effect of those failures on the policies and concepts Obama and the dems push?

Not to mention 99% of the municipal workers are dems, who will have no cash to contribute.

Art Laffer kinda likes the 9-9-9 plan.

Let's face it - with all the economic turmoil, and particularly Europe's failure, the last thing the private sector wants is more government, and at this point it is the only viable employer.

Think Progress:

Rhode Island Gov. Lincoln Chafee (I), who served as a Republican senator until 2006, says he doesn’t even recognize Mitt Romney anymore. The former Massachusetts governor infamous for his shifting positions is “a completely different person” as a presidential candidate than he was when he governed Rhode Island’s neighboring state. “The appeal you have to make to the Republican primary audience – that’s just alien to what’s in our best interests as a country,” Chafee told WPRI in Providence, Rhode Island.

Why not Cain? Why not Romney? Why not any of the candidates. They say power corrupts... the President and his lackey's like Holder are corrupt!

President Obama has become a veritable Pinocchio by stretching the truth on a regular basis.

1. Americans want higher taxes: During the debate over raising the debt ceiling, President Obama said that 80% of Americans support including higher taxes as part of the deal. But a Rasmussen poll taken the same week showed that only 34% believe a tax hike should be included in a debt-ceiling agreement.

2. Mother denied health insurance: During his presidential campaign, Obama said that his mother died of cancer after being denied coverage for a preexisting condition. He used her image in a campaign ad, repeated the claim in debates, and used the same rhetoric as President when he tried to sell ObamaCare to the American people. But a new book by New York Times reporter Janny Scott says that Obama’s mother, Ann Dunham, had health insurance through her employer and was only denied disability insurance.

3. Tax restraint for middle and lower class: Obama pledged during his campaign and throughout his presidency not to raise taxes on families making less than $250,000. But ObamaCare’s individual mandate will hit many under the $250,000 mark. (Obama’s own Justice Department said the mandate was a tax, not a penalty, when it argued its constitutionality.) Not to mention a higher federal cigarette tax and countless other “fees” in the health care law that hit the middle and lower class.

4. Shovel-ready jobs: When Obama was selling his $787 billion stimulus package, he consistently bragged about how shovel-ready construction jobs would be funded across the nation. Even the President later admitted that was a lie, when he told the New York Times: “There’s no such thing as shovel-ready projects.”

5. Keep your doctor: President Obama repeatedly pledged that under his health care measure, Americans would be able to keep their doctors. However, with rising costs, many employers will dump their health care plans and force workers into the state health care exchanges (unless you belong to one of the unions getting ObamaCare waivers.) A survey by McKinsey & Company​ found that more than 30% of companies will discontinue coverage for their workers.

6. No lobbyists: During the 2008 presidential campaign, Obama said: “We have the chance to tell all those corporate lobbyists that the days of them setting the agenda in Washington are over. … I don't take a dime of their money, and when I am President, they won't find a job in my White House.” At least a dozen former lobbyists got top jobs in his administration at the beginning of his presidency, according to Politico, and National Public Radio reported the Obama administration was granting waivers to lobbyists to circumvent the ban.

7. Foreign money in campaigns: During his 2010 State of the Union address, and again during the 2010 midterm elections, Obama railed against foreign money influencing U.S. elections. The only problem was that there was no evidence to support the charge or, as Supreme Court Justice Samuel Alito, in the State of the Union audience, silently mouthed, “Not true.”

8. Arizona immigration law: During the battle over Arizona’s immigration law, President Obama said: “Now suddenly if you don’t have your papers and you took your kid out to get ice cream, you can be harassed, that’s something that could potentially happen.” Uh, actually, Mr. President, it couldn’t. The law would allow law enforcement officials to inquire about immigration status only when there is suspicion of a crime being committed.

9. Transparency: Obama pledged that transparency would be a top priority, but his administration refused to grant one-third of the Freedom of Information Act requests, according to an Associated Press​ analysis. He also was dishonest about transparency when he said that health-care negotiations would be televised on C-SPAN and that he would wait five days to sign a bill so people would have a chance to read it online.

10. Constitutional oath: During his January 2009 inauguration, Barack Obama pledged to “preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States,” yet he has consistently ignored the 10th Amendment giving powers not enumerated in the Constitution to the states. Exhibit No. 1: ObamaCare.

Anybody but Obama 2012

All you liberals will eventually see that , since the Tea Party surged in 2010, the electorate is NOT GOING TO ACCEPT POLITICS AS USUAL ( which Obama epitomizes) any longer.

Herman Cain is popular because he is not a politician and the people are fed up. I ask all you Dems/libs out there , how is 9.1% unemployment and $15 trillion debt working for you ?? Don't attack Mr. Cain, an American success story, who works hard and knows how to create jobs. Get on the Cain Train and get off generational WELFARE !

Romney/Cain 2012 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No Madison republicans gave him the new slogan for 2012 "The Only Hope For Change" Republicans promised jobs and then they unanimously kill or denigrate every jobs bill, Obama did not those people into the streets republicans did, they handed him the next election, they did for him what he could not do for himself, they volunteered to take the blame for unemployment, and proved to people that no matter what they think of Obama, he is the only hope they have. If you don't like seeing people in the streets tell the republicans, they better fulfill their promise of jobs, but quick. The protesters are growing in numbers and locations by the week, and they are not going to rally around republican candidates, and policies.

Ray-4054460

Again, do you consider employees of Koch Industries and others being attacked as necessary collateral damage when they have families to feed and clothe???? Are you that callous and narrow-minded not to have compassion for them??? These are people and I will ask that question everyday.

Hey Ray,

Do you ask legitimate questions such as why the unemployed peole can't themselves or their familes at all because of these greedy bas-turds?

Don't give the Black Walnut's NUT talking point "Blame yourself" either. People know who to blame.

David -- Some very important points made in your post. (1.1) Thank you.

John B-- Thanks for the clip. Maybe it will take the wind out of a few sails. (Doubtful, but at least they will have to come up with a different prop for their argument.)

Beverly in Chicago

Perhaps the the Black walnut is really a nut.lack

Shame on you Bev! What about those black ACORNS who disrupted the 2008 election with the many fraudulent voting tactics? How's that work out for those neighborhood organizers? Eh, Bev?

You can tell by the post of the tea people GOP republican paid trolls this morning they are scared to death about what is going to happen to them in the 2012 election.

Yeah mo, look at all those libretards who bring nothing to the debate but insult and slander. BO stinks on many levels and will be easily replaced in 2012!

And to further prove your point Forrest, today the House will be voting on a bill.......on abortion.

This is what the GOP/TP's considers important in the scheme of things, not jobs, not the economy, not tax reform and certainly not The American Jobs Bill or any component of it. And they wonder why people are angry. Congress' low poll numbers reflect that.

Ignore and denigrate "We the People" at your peril. We see what you are all about and it is not "We the People".

Spanky:

Hey AM - you say Cain doesn't have the experience to be Pres., but we got past that with the last one, right?

Who was it who once said, "Fool me once, shame on me ...."

Sally Rocks classically:

Yeah mo, look at all those libretards who bring nothing to the debate but insult and slander. BO stinks on many levels and will be easily replaced in 2012!

You're kidding about liberals being the ones who "bring nothing to the debate but insult and slander," right?

Because otherwise, you appear to be the victim of your own irony.

LEONA-2986819

All you liberals will eventually see that , since the Tea Party surged in 2010, the electorate is NOT GOING TO ACCEPT POLITICS AS USUAL ( which Obama epitomizes) any longer.

Sure, like the ones who are not plants and are showing up at OWS asserting they now realize they have been duped by FOX NOISE and Koch brothers FREE"DUMB"WORKS?

Herman Cain is popular because he is not a politician and the people are fed up. I ask all you Dems/libs out there , how is 9.1% unemployment and $15 trillion debt working for you ?? Don't attack Mr. Cain, an American success story, who works hard and knows how to create jobs. Get on the Cain Train and get off generational WELFARE !

Herman Cain's #999 fright train is a wreck and headed for its LAST STOP. Yup, that right; it is going out of business. It 's cargo is too strange for the American people to want; as it is trying to exchange the American people for the stocks on Wall Street!!!!

Former Godfather’s Pizza CEO Herman Cain’s 999 plan — which would scrap the current tax code in favor of a nine percent personal income tax, nine percent corporate income tax, and nine percent sales tax (on everything, including food)

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/10/13/342703/cain-tax-no-idea/

Furthermore, that Black Nut thinks people should buy used food

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2011/10/12/341817/cain-food-used/

===============================================

The only used goods the American people will agree to are getting rid of those old, greedy, recycled, crooks sitting in Congress and on Wall Street for President Obama's J-O-B-S plan.

Obama/Biden 2012 all aboard !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://ametia.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/obama-biden-2012.jpg?w=150

Spanky when municipalities fail, people get laid off, then they need all the things republicans are against, I don't disagree with everything you say about debt, but the bottom line is people will vote to eat, it is a number one priority with most people. People no longer see the single minded to all our problems that republicans offer as working, it is not working, they know that because they are being laid off, I tell you Spanky truthfully I meet them every week, and nothing turns a suburban white conservative republican voter into a democrat faster than a pink slip, because now he personally needs the things they are more likely to support. I know union guys that vote republican because of single issues such as God, guns, and gays, after they pawn their guns for grocery money they vote democratic. I'm seeing faces at democratic labor club meetings I have never seen before, I know these guys I have bitched at them for years to get involved in the labor club, they were too busy making and spending their money, now that they have been laid off a good long while they are showing up. You said it yourself a while back, that people want and need to protect their job, republicans are not offering them any light at the end of the tunnel, they see the government burn through money for anything and everything, they don't understand why a little can't be burned on a jobs bill, they are desperate Spanky, they are not in good financial shape like you, they are literally losing everything they ever had, they don't give a flying fling about the debt at this stage. Republicans to a man sent them a clear message the other day when they unanimously voted against the jobs bill, and if more municipalities fail and more people get laid off then the more people that will vote for Obama. I see it every week, people that bashed the hell out of him for two years are now siding with him, reluctantly maybe, because they are desperate maybe but the fact remains they are now convinced that voting republican would be a mistake for them in the next election. If republicans would have made a move on jobs after the midterms they would have had a lock, but they did not, they have a year left and if they stick to their guns it will be a loser for them. They over played the Waterloo strategy, they stated their main priority and they did everything they could do to bring it bear, but sometimes when you want something in the worst way, that is just how you get it.

Just what we need for our struggling Country, 999. Send Cain back to his Pizza Parlor and tell him to just make Pizza's and leave Politics to the grown ups.

I realize you are just trying as hard as you can to be condescending, but read Herman Cain's bio (if you can read) and you will see that he has more real world experience than all the candidates (and Obama) put together. He's been a corporate CEO, a software engineer, was chairman of the Federal Reserve of Kansas City. I expect as a corporate CEO and a CHAIRMAN of the Federal Reserve he learned a thing or two about business, finance, and monetary policy, don't you? He's a LOT more than a "pizza man". He's a million percent more qualified to be President than Mr Obama was when he ran. Give the man the credit he deserves. He's the real deal in a pool full of wannabee's.

Let's not forget, as Mark and Dom said in last week's Boiler Room thread, we should look at state polls, specifically in the early primary states, Iowa and New Hampshire, to predict who will win the Republican Primary. Romney is ahead in the NH polls, I do believe, but I think Cain is Iowa's favorite, yes?

And Mark and Dom also said:

when you look at the Rick Perrys, you look at the Mitt Romneys, even Herman Cain, what really matters is who catches fire last right before those contests

Someday, FR will regret giving us transcripts of their videos, but this week, I think the Boiler Room guys' advice proved to be quite sensible.

Sally republicans don't even like their candidates so much, so what makes you think democrats and independents will go for them, the polls, the funds raised and people protesting in the streets all indicate otherwise.

In case you forgot there is no ACORN. ACORN was defunded.

Scandal-Ridden Activist Group Lives on in the Form of “Bullet Proof Community-Organizing Frankensteins” Created Across the Country

http://www.judicialwatch.org/news/2011/sep/judicial-watch-releases-special-report-rebranding-acorn

In reality Acorn lives on (like cockroaches notoriously difficult to stamp out)

They CONTINUE to do Obama's bidding the names have been changed to protect the guilty

Hey Bev, Let's compare BO who came from academia,community organizing and 2 years in D.C. politics. Compare BO with Herman Cain, a self made, educated, hard working,.multi-millionaire. Mr Cain is also a LEADER with confidence.

Ummmmm, let's think now .....who knows how to create JOBS??

Now, everyone .......... place your bets!

Wow, this is so hard....LOL

Compare BO with Herman Cain, a self made, educated, hard working,.multi-millionaire ....

.... with no experience in politics at ALL, no demonstrated understanding of foreign policy, and who, despite all his supposed executive experience, cannot seem to run his own campaign, as outlined on the next thread.

Somehow, I think creating low wage pizza delivery jobs is not exactly what we're all hoping for in a jobs bill.

But okay, I compared them. Now what?

I heard the Republican jobs plan has 3 points to it:

1. Cut taxes for the rich

2. Cut taxes for the rich

3. Cut taxes for the rich

And if that doesn't work...cut taxes for the rich

Deep-rooted, growing public distrust of government in the modern era began during the Vietnam War, and spread generally with the Waergate scandal. Despite the efforts of Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter, both of whom were good men desperately needed at the nation's helm after the corruption and cynicism of Richard Nixon, the taint lingered and was ruthlessly exploited by far-right operatives such as Jack Abramoff and Lyn Nofziger (both of whom ended up jailed for corruption).

The unending efforts of the far right to exploit Americans' fears and uncertainties as the world about them changed at near light speed - the leap from the IBM 360 to the home computer took exactly one year in 1978-79, for example - is chronicled in convincing detail by author Thomas Frank, in The Wrecking Crew: How Conservatives Ruined Government, Enriched Themselves, and Beggared America.

What that account does not discuss, however, is how fomenting political division and generalized disdain of government has really affected the national psyche. And that is a price this country will have to pay for long years to come.

Despite the protests and anger at government misbehavior in the 1960's, particularly after 1968, most young Americans, and a majority of those from the WWII generation, still held a belief in the overall ability of government to act for progress and the general good of the nation. It was a belief that sprang from the post-war era, when America generally prospered, led in rebuilding a devastated world, and held herself as the bulwark against Soviet expansionism.

The postwar decades were a time of achievement, too. Out of the horrors of a Life magazine cover showing hundreds of polio victims in "iron lungs," soon came the news that Jonas Salk had produced a vaccine to protect people from the disease. Early in the 1960's, effective birth control dramatically altered the very basis of women's lives, at home and in society generally. (And some women of the time also gave persistent, loud thanks for pantyhose - and the passing of the corset-cum-garters.)

Commercial aviation expanded at a tremendous rate. The original "pipelines" of the Internet were laid down, largely out of sight, under a government-sponsored program. American food production not only fed the world, but piled up in surpluses, which were eventually supplied to many of the nation's hungry in a dramatic effort to improve the health and well-being especially of children.

A massive highway system stitched the nation together much as a knitter makes an antimacassar for the wing chair. Inventions streamed from American universities, largely aided by various government research grants. Inventions also streamed from the government programs that put men into space, and onto the moon.

In the mid-1960's, faith in government to improve the nation overall enabled creation of Medicare, Head Start and numerous other programs. The government seriously addressed the inequities of locally-administered welfare programs, establishing national standards that displaced often petty and arbitrary decisions about elegibility. And, of course, Civil Rights and voting rights legislation began to do away with vicious discrimination and disenfranchisement.

Over time, however, relentless propaganda, mis-information campaigns, and at times intentional sabotage of government operations created the myth that government was inefficient, unreliable, overexpensive, and simply unnecessary. When tied to the distrust of government generally that followed Vietnam and Watergate, public confidence in public institutions began crumbling.

One tragic example is public trust in the state and national judiciary. Political conflict over judicial nominations increased the time required for people to bring thier issues to the courts, while a steady strangling of finances for salaries, support staff and facilities in many states further limited opportunities for timely justice. And people responded, seeing the problems, by supporting yet further cuts in financial support for the justice system - the exact opposite of what is needed to resolve clogged calendars and overworked people.

Similarly, such public institutions as state agencies to address family issues, especially the needs of abandoned, orphaned or abused children, have seen financial resources steadily dwindle. In Florida, the Department of Families and Children has been riven with scandal for at least a decade. Case workers, many of whom earn less than $20,000 a year, attempt to deal with upwards of 200 open files constantly. But the public is led to believe that the dedicated personnel are incompetent bumblers - so why devote tax dollars to them?

The litany could continue. The assault on public institutions from the right wing ideologues is literally an assault on the nation as a whole. The damage done to general public confidence in public institutions is terrible - and the propagandists pushing that are despicable.

@ John A:

Let me just say thank you for the hard work you do, every day, out here. I always learn so much from reading your posts, and I just wanted you to know how much they are appreciated.

I thought this line, in particular, summed it up --

Case workers, many of whom earn less than $20,000 a year, attempt to deal with upwards of 200 open files constantly. But the public is led to believe that the dedicated personnel are incompetent bumblers - so why devote tax dollars to them?

We will, of course, eventually reap what we are sowing, and as I have said so many times before, there are those who will then turn around and ask how it could have happened.

There was some talk, even before the 2008 election, that Republicans would be content to allow Obama to win, so the entire mess could be blamed on him, while they waited things out till the next election from the cold comfort of their private clubs. As events have shaped up, this theory has some teeth. Sitting on mounds of corporate cash, while continuing to make record profits from the exportation of the American economy, they were obviously counting on the public believing their fairy tale that government, and not Wall Street, had somehow caused all their problems, and they were further counting on the disgruntled public taking out its frustrations on President Obama.

It will indeed be a long time, if ever, before the damage being done now is repaired.

Thanks again for your always thoughtful posts, and keep up the good work. You have a big fan here.

Anna Molly -

Goodness gracious, you've made me blush! Thank you - I certainly appreciate your steady and reliable hand here as well. You take on so much of the propaganda and misrepresentation yourself, and do so at times with such rapier-like wit, I wonder whether the victims even realize they've had their livers removed! Most of them I have had to put on ignore so that the discourse doesn't become side-tracked.

As you, David Walker, and others here have so well pointed out, the conflict now is literally about a very way of life, and the definition of a nation. It's a struggle we simply can't put away.

Molly, I seriously doubt that the CEO spends a lot of time dealing with pizza delivery men, but in your simplistic view of the world they probably do. They deal with complex things like procurement, supply chains, where to build and expand, where to close shop, how to motivate employees and management, pricing, etc.... It takes a lot of skill to be a successful CEO, and he demonstrated that he has that skill. As for political experience, poll after poll tells me that we are FED UP with politicians. I for one am ready for a NEW type of leader. One who is NOT a politician. I am convinced that one reason Obama got elected is that he CLAIMED to be that type of leader, and that's what people wanted. The disallusionment has come in finding out that he is MORE partisan, more political, and less transparent than any president we've had in recent memory. People are still hungry for that real leader. The person with the good ideas who is not a pollitician. The person who has actually accomplished something worthwhile in their life.

Oh, and I assume you are aware that the "pizza man" was also chairman of the Federal Reserve of Kansas City? I doubt he dealt with a lot of pizza delivery men there.....

Bruce -- Read the 9-9-9 plan carefully, as well as Herman Cain's website. You will see that his plan does not include FICA with-holdings for Social Security and Medicare. It does not because he wants these programs abolished!

On his website he says these programs are a mistake, and such services should be provided locally by states and municipalities. Of course we all know states and cities do not have the financial ability to do this. So Cain recommends going to churches and charities.

It's understandable that average Americans like us have not obtained Herman Cain's plan and studied it. However, it is appalling that not one of Cain's opponents in the GOPTP primary has studied it. Bachmann lowers debate standards by saying it is 666 turned around, and wow that is so...beneath the office of the POTUS. These idiots have attacked Perry for saying Social Security is an unconstitutional ponzi scheme, but not ONE of them have bothered to do their homework on the new front runner, Herman Cain. Is this the standard we have for leader of the free world?

As for Cain supporters, likewise how many have bothered to read through his website. If so, how many would support the idea of going to churches and charities after age 65 and asking for retirement and health care? If people think Teapublicans are toast for unanimously supporting Paul Ryan Hoods arse-backward plan to steal from the poor elderly on Medicare to give more tax breaks to the rich, or if people think Perry is toast for calling Social Security a ponzi scheme, than Herman Cain is toast the most.

JohnA, I second AM and send you kudos on a simply excellent piece of writing.

In reading, I was reminded of a recent conversation whereby a particpant, who has knowledge of the workings of government, noted that by depleting government workers, there are simply not enough people to even analyze data being collected, that would help make decisions to aid government in being more effective. This is what happens when the baby is thrown out with the bathwater.

Thanks JohnA, keep writing and teaching.

Ah, I have read through the website and like the man even more.

Ray -- Has it ever occurred to you that members of congress may defend themselves because of gridlock and low congressional approval numbers, including a Democrat? No one can take criticism from congress against the president seriously at this point in time. The American people know the president has worked hard to put together plans from the Big Deal to the Jobs Act to a deficit reduction plan. The ball is in Congress's court, and they are doing NOTHING.

As for attacks against Dems in the Senate, the turncoats (like Nelson) are feeling the heat and will answer to their constituents in the next election. However, the fact remains that 98% of Democrats voted to move the Jobs Act forward, while 0%, that is ZERO PERCENT of Teapublicans voted to move it forward. This is all that voters need to know.

In regard to the abortion bill that the GOPTP are too busy with to do anything about JOBS!, this is only one abortion bill of MANY, numerous redundant bills in congress and around the nation that Teapublicans are too busy with to create JOBS! Seriously, an analogy to the proliferate redundancy would be pro-lifers passing multiple bills requiring men to wear not one, not two, but three condoms. It's all a show for their fundamentalist base, which is even worse than the outright neglect of duty this represents.

In polls (the ones that conservatives love when it shows low approval for the president, but not so much when it shows what douche-bag Teapublicans are) there is a list of issues in order of priority. After that list of important issues, like jobs, the economy, health care, etc. there is a category called "Other." Teapublicans are focused on OTHER -- Abortion isn't even on the damn list. Throw these Teapublican douche-bags out!

Bruce, the election of a president is not about YOU (thank Gawd). Social Security and Medicare are VERY popular with a large majority of Americans.

We have Roe v Wade with the Hyde Amendment. We don't need anything more. The Teapublicans are crazies.

Moving on...

Black Nut?

Why is racism and bigotry supported by MSNBC only when it is aimed at a Republican?

You liberals ranting over and over your vitriolic hate is stunning. You know little of a person while insulting and defaming them, it is rancid.

Anyone claiming Mr Cain is not qualified needs their head examined, as the organizer currently "Occupying" the White House has not a clue what the job requires, as is evidenced by his terrible public displays of venom.

If Mr Obama were a quality politician (I never thought I would wish for the Clinton days) he would have long ago learned that class warfare and grid lock only cause people to want to fire every last one of "them".

Mr Obama cares not for America, he cares only for his causes and his power. Hopefully he will go the way of Solyndra.

TP -

Two very, very useful posts.

It is clear that Cain is, in fact, another member of the club led by Grover Norquist, the Koch Brothers, and other backstage manipulators who have already caused the very mess confronting the nation and the world.

What is so galling is that these fanatics believe they are in sight of ultimate victory. They know that being repudiated in 2012 - when a large number of freshman Tea Party officeholders may well be given their walking papers - will at minimum delay, and at worst put to an end to, the campaign that has been underway since the 1930's to undo all the progress made in this country.

They are close enough to reaching their long-desired goals that the mere thought of defeat makes them insane. And they will continue to hammer their falsehoods, half-truths, and misrepresentations in any possible forum in hopes of permanently affecting public perceptions.

Only the purifying influence of sunlight on their dark schemes can help. Keep going!

Ray - Sigh....It's really hard to be so ill informed now isn't it. First off let me correct you dearie...it's Democratic not Democrat. If you're going to talk like you know something then use the correct words or don't bother. Everything else you have to say after that point is deemed of no value. Secondly you seem to not know what type of society you live in. You're aware I'm sure that we don't live in a purely capitalistic country. Our country is a mix of socialism and capitalism. Did you know that???? You see Ray dear friend, pure capitalism doesn't work well to create a functioning society because it creates more losers than winners and that in turn creates social unreast. You know like the kind we're having now???? That's because the capitalists are winning too big an advantage and the balance is shifting causing these problems. If this imbalance isn't adjusted back, there will be further social unrest and our government could become unstable. But I'm sure you don't care much the Ray because you're one of the "I've got mine" crowd. As far as Rachel Maddow is concerned....she's a damned good commentator...quite insightful and it's just too bad if you don't subscribe to the live and let live theory. That's another one of your authoritarian flaws. You know Ray it's called civil rights? Or are only your civil rights of any value? You know before you go castigating good commentators, take a closer look at fat boy Limbaugh and Mop top Hannity, then come talk to me about those that you disparage.

John A. -- Your post #1.64 needs to be at the beginning of a thread -- I agree with AM that it is excellent. And thanks for the compliments, especially coming from you!

John A.:

What a fine post. You mention that Nofziger and Abramoff are in prison. I wonder how many know that Grover Norquist learned his tactics of destruction at Abramoff's knee.

In thread after thread, post after post, it is clear that a great number of Americans have no idea as to the scope of federal government. You have done us a great favor by pointing out a number of them.

To your suggested reading list of The Wrecking Crew and What's the Matter with Kansas, I would strongly suggest Cadillac Desert. What an eye-opener. The monster corporate farm interests in California still have not paid back the debt they promised to pay for the Central Valley Project.

For those who see government as the enemy, I can't help but wonder whether they have ever dealt with a corporate call center in India. I wonder how many look at their corporate hamburger and say, "Hey, that's not what it looked like on TV!" I wonder how many have taken their cars in for repair, only to drive them home and find that somehow, some way, another part has magically broken OR that the original repair didn't work at all.

This perfect private enterprise thing, this awesome free-market, this perfect capitalism seems to cloud memories. Those who condemn government seem to forget that the vast majority of businesses fail. They forget Penn Central, Lockheed, Chrysler, and maybe a bank or two, maybe a Savings & Loan or two.

Hard to escape the notion that Republicans have lost their minds.

AM, GBM, TP, DW -

Thanks for your compliments. They encouraged me to copy the post and set it up as a 'Vine column. Given the outstanding work you guys do, it's humbling to read your kind words.

[Fox's Attacks On EPA Coincide With Republican Agenda]

God, how I miss the Fairness Doctrine!

[I don't have to prove anything, John.]

Of course you don't...because you're "special"...

[Prove otherwise, John. You can't...you won't.]

This is bag-speak for "Stop picking on me!"

John A.-400474: "The assault on public institutions from the right wing ideologues is literally an assault on the nation as a whole. The damage done to general public confidence in public institutions is terrible ....."

The "assault on public institutions" is not done by the "right wing" !! It's done because the American people are FED UP with the CRIMINALITY amongst politicians like Obama ( Solyndra etc.), C.Rangel & T.Geitner (tax cheats), N.Pelosi ( SOLAR COMPANIES HER BROTHER IN LAW GOT RICH FROM), M.Waters ( funneled tax money to her husband's bank) etc. etc. etc.

Hey all you politicians........WE WANT OUR MONEY BACK !!!!!!!!!!!!

(THE TRUTH IS ALWAYS MIS-represented on Msnbc.)

Leona, in 1.64 John A laid out how this Conservative attack on America is a long term war that began in the 1970s, but you want to lay it all on current events. Do you have the ability to go deeper than whatever headlines are up on Drudge Report and World Net Daily today?

JohnB,Des Moines,IA,

why should I "go deeper" into why the American people despise the "dirty" politicians?? Isn't your day miserable enough? LOL

Besides, what I have already mentioned should be reason enough to be FED UP with government misappropriation of TAX DOLLARS that belong to the American people !!!!

Just pointing out that you have no idea what you're talking about, and no intention of putting in the time and effort to actually become informed.

“hoodoo”

As in 'hodoo' they think they're fooling? - Paul Simon

Me? I'm tired on being peed on and told it's trickle down...

Great post Floyd!

PS: Hope you have the back-ho gassed up & ready to go...

Good Morning Feisty, IR and David.......great way to start a beautiful morning. Hope you day will be wonderful.

I like that Hoodoo, sort of reminds me of hooey.... a great big pile of it.

I see those wonderful folks OccupyWallSt, have attracted a number of "A" list supporters. I wish I lived near there I'd be in the middle of that in a heartbeat. DC politicians hope you're paying attention.

Didn't think of that one Betty. Maybe a reguest down at the DDI come Friday. We've put a second Backhoe shift on and are paying them double time to keep up. F.R. do something with what Red so aptly puts it your Viagra Man. It's pitiful.

Gotta give those conservatives credit---they've been trying to destroy Social Security since it was enacted and, by golly, they don't give up. The 9-9-9 plan is just the latest spin on that, with a large dose of "trickle down economics" thrown in. We are a nation gave it a 30 year test run and it doesn't work.

Great information "IRV", thanks! The Kochs have their money into everything...

You neatly leave out that Reagan's policies, once fully implemented, broke inflation, ignited extraordinary growth, and cut the knees out from unemployment.

All unintentionally, I presume.

In contrast, let's look at the most recent results of Obamanomics- today's initial claims for unemployment

They came in at 404,000. Think that's high? Last week's 401,000 was revised up to 405,000.

The reason? Obama has as much understanding of how the economy works as the average 5 year old. In another example of his brilliant mastery of the subject, today it has come to light that we, the taxpayers, are on the hook for $1.2 billion- with a B- in loans to yet another solar company with a failed business model.

The company, named Sunpower, is located in California. Purely incidentally, Democratic Representative George Miller, whose son is the chief lobbyist for the firm, helped push the loan application.

If successful, all those tax dollars would have generated 15 permanent jobs. Since they're going bankrupt, that won't happen, either.

How on this green earth does any functional adult think that dumping all that money to create 15 jobs is a good idea?

How on this green earth does any functional adult think risking billions of taxpayer dollars is a good idea?

How on this green earth, with this level of incompetence, do people seriously expect Obama to get reelected?

Cause, he won't.

Obama shelved in 2012.

Can we start this conversation over? Can we all agree that the IRS in it's current state is a huge mess with so many rules/regulations that you need a room for all of the annual update volumes? Can we agree that it's not easy to file your taxes, that you are constantly checking for what you are allowed/not allowed to take off on your taxes every year. Is it reasonable that every American family needs to hire a trained professional to file/assist them file their taxes or be liable for any errors and penalties that the IRS can find in their filings?

You can berate the 9-9-9 program, but I think it's high time that we fundimentally change our taxation system into a simplified structure. Personally I'm for the Fair Tax as it simply sets annual bars for base living consumption and uses that information as the basis of returning your cash to you (you get a monthly refund from the IRS for everything up to that bar amount- thus the poor continue to get full refunds). They remove all of the imbedded taxes (about 13%) and replace them with one upfront 13% consumption tax. Those wanting to buy more pay more. Feel free to spend as you want and anything above your base living requirements gets the 13% tax. Thus the rich- whom buy fancy cars, jewelry, clothes, food, etc. will end up paying more than the average family on a budget.

You've got to face the facts- our current taxation system isn't working, everyone isn't represented fairly, everyone doesn't have a vested interest in the tax system, and not everyone cares how their earned income is spent by our government. It's got to change.

The Koch Brothers and George Soros...Dueling Bogeymen who make daily appearances here...

I have a question;

Do you worry that the Koch Bros. or Soros will influence YOU, or is it some imaginary person who is much more impressionable and easily manipulated?

Don't need to reinvent the wheel Joe. We can do all that and still keep it within a progressive tax system rather than regressive like Flat Tax or Vat would be. All we have to have is the will to change it and quit believing all the horsecrud

No Danger just getting the facts out there for a good looksee. I'm sure that Mr. Soros will show up directly and we can go back to He Said She Said.

NJ is conveniently ignoring that the Federal Reserve Board began the cycle that broke stagflation well before the 1980 election. Raising interest rates to extremely high levels shut off the flow of money that allowed inflation and wage increases to feed each other in an environment of relatively low demand. That was painful medicine, but it killed the ability of business to rapidly raise prices, which in turn killed their ability to rapidly increase pay.

Reagan is today's Liberal

NJNB -- I might believe your outrage over the loss of taxpayer dollars if you actually talked about other examples of waste as well. Maybe we could compare the value of each instance eh?

9-9-9

Nein, nein, nein.

Ironically, Michele Bachmann may have been right.

The devil IS in the details.

I'm neglecting nothing- in fact, I addressed that very point earlier in the week- it was a major part of Sim's and Sargent's work.

The models showed that the sudden, extreme, rise interest rates would take quite a long time- more than ten quarters- to tame inflation. To begin with, it looked as if that were absolutely true.

Then, Reagan got elected. Inflation broke very quickly. Why?

Rational Expectations. People believed Reagan could tame inflation, so they adjusted their buying habits accordingly. While Carter was president, they believed he was helpless to control inflation, so, in the belief that prices would continue to rise, they bought as much as possible today, to stave off tomorrow's increased prices- thus, feeding inflation. Once Reagan was elected, they checked that behavior, due to their belief that he could stem inflation. That belief took excess monies out of the economy- starving inflation.

That is Obama's problem. No one believes he knows how to turn the economy around, so they hunker down in the expectation that the economy will either get worse, or stay as poor as it is today. Their Rational Expectations are that is is better to save and de-leverage than to risk capital in this economy.

That is why Obama has no chance at reelection.

Then, Reagan got electrode. Inflation broke very quickly. Why?

Rational Expectations. People believed Reagan could tame inflation, so they adjusted their buying habits accordingly. While Carter was president, they believed he was helpless to control inflation, so, in the belief that prices would continue to rise, they bought as much as possible today, to stave off tomorrow's increased prices- thus, feeding inflation.

Knowing from experience that people in general don't think so linearly, or behave quite so rationally, this explanation seems preposterous to me on its face.

There's a more sinister answer than yours that is equally credible, and it's one that may be coming into play now.

Let's call it, for sake of a better word, manipulation.

Hey John, where the mighty Federal Reserve Board Now?

If it fixed us all up back in 1980, why not now?

Damn John B. you really are fixated on windmills these days.

And DangerF - Me. I am very impressionable and easily manipulated. Unlike the gang around here.

Cause ou know that Hope and Change platform was so well thought out and well formed.

AM --The Cain Plan. A dynamically scored plan by an investment firm. The cry for "certainty" indeed seems disingenuous when using speculations.

AM- then rational expectations model has been around for a long time- even got Lucas a Nobel prize. He did not invent it, but he proved its utility.

Here's an example- in 2008, Bush, in the face of an economic downturn, issued checks to almost all Americans.

Know what most people did with that money? Saved it- either by banking it, or paying down debt.

Why did they do that? Well, they anticipated the economy continue using to decline. Their rational expectation was that it was better to have a financial cushion, rather than spending the money. Therefore, they did what, in their estimation, was right for themselves as individuals, rather than the economy as a whole.

It was really no different in the 1970s. People acted on their own rational expectation that it was better to buy today, rather than wait for tomorrow- as the price would be higher tomorrow.

So, no conspiracy- unless you think the vast majority of Americans are part of it.

It doesn't seem that the Racial Right is in love with their choices. However, there is a special on pizza. $9.99 for a large with 3 toppings.

Dont_carry_it_all

NJNB -- I might believe your outrage over the loss of taxpayer dollars if you actually talked about other examples of waste as well. Maybe we could compare the value of each instance eh?

Ain't the truth! For instance, Dr No Jo might want to question all that money (6 billlion) lost in Iraq on Slab for bribes. Worse, Iraq wants to sue US.

How about the commission's investigation to prevent future contract waste, fraud & abuse but nothing about the billions of dollars lost and never retrieved in Iraq?

http://www.whatthefolly.com/2011/10/10/wartime-commission-urges-strong-reforms-to-prevent-future-contract-waste-fraud-abuse/

The special inspector general for Iraq reconstruction Stuart Bowen told the Times the missing money may represent "the largest theft of funds in national history."

Yea, right what a corrupt folly No Jo is!

No small amount of IRONY, IR, that Mr. Cain knows a great deal about what it would take to dismantle the Federal Reserve:

from wiki:

...Cain became a member of the board of directors of the Federal Reserve Bank of Kansas City in 1992 and served as its chairman from January 1995 to August 1996...

He was also on the board of one of our energy companies during the Enron scandal,...no telling the ghosts that lurk in his closet.

9-9-9 is a SCHEME and is NOT good for anyone but the 1% ers. But look how many water boys the GNOP can get to tote for 'em. It's downright stunning how many people take things at 'face' without crunching ANY numbers. The sheep will always follow,...regardless the personal 'cost'. Republicans like KOCH,...well they BANK on it.

IR, as always a "spot on" post, pearls of redneck wisdom! I don't think Mr. Cain ever figured he would be the leader of the pack.

His 9-9-9 sounds good, it's simple and some people think simple works but his plan will result in the largest tax cuts for the wealthy in history and the largest tax increase on the poor and middle class in history. His plan eliminates medicare, social security and all other social programs and turns those responsibilities over to states, towns, churches and charities. The US tax code needs changing but 9-9-9 is NOT the answer.

Yeah NJ Reagan's economic policies did a lot of things, one you forgot to mention was that it was the first huge explosion of the deficit.

Joe,

What little I have seen of Cain, I like him as a person, and I can certainly understand his appeal. I think we've all just about had it with professional politicians.

Yesterday I read an article in the NYT about how Karl Rove, et al, started in politics as Tea Party types, passionate about reducing the federal government, and ended up a part of the very system they originally deplored, making a (very, very) good living on the status quo.

Ronald Reagan kept Jimmy Carter's money man, Paul Voelkers; and Reagan kept in place the implemented Voelkers rules and strategy to end inflation and stagflation because Reagan knew it was working. Reagan benefited from what a democratic administration started and he kept the person in place to see that it continued. Reagan knew what worked, he just spoke as if it didn't work. Reagan deserves credit for continuing what was working but he does not deserve credit for starting the plan. One more Reagan myth debunked.

Clara - He was also on the board of one of our energy companies during the Enron scandal,...no telling the ghosts that lurk in his closet.

Yeah, no telling. But I'm sure you and your little gang of dolts will fabricate something.

Bev -- Indeed NJNB is ignoring much when it comes to waste of tax payer dollars! : )

The aspect most appear to be missing is that 9-9-9 is meant as an INITIAL step to appeal to those for a flat tax, corporate tax review and a fairer tax in a system where to an extent everyone is expected to contribute.

The big problem is that step 2 of Cain's plan will take years to negotiate and finalize. That would leave only 1/2 his plan instituted which is NOT what will work. It would be highly unlikely it would come anywhere close to finalization during Cain's first term which would leave us in a bigger mess than we are now.

I don't care how loudly people complain that there are 47% who don't pay taxes, one cannot reasonably expect a family barely eking out a living to contribute 9% of their income PLUS an additional 9% Federal Tax while rewarding those in the upper tiers with a reduction in tax rate and an elimination of capital gains. The only way something as simplistic as 9-9-9 can possibly work is by establishing a substantial exemption (similar to what Forbes proposed in the 80's with a figure of $36,000 as an exemption for a family) or a revision of salaries for lower paid people. Cain's assumption that employers would magically pass on the savings realized by the elimination of social security taxes is naive at best. Is there really anyone out there who believes for one minute that corporations would do this?

FWIW, personally I would gain enormously from a plan such as this. I still don't think it's just.

Job1

"It doesn't seem that the Racial Right is in love with their choices. However, there is a special on pizza. $9.99 for a large with 3 toppings."

DEAL! In honor of the recent 'debates', I'll take mine with nuts, nuts, and let's see........ um.....NUTS! Here's your 9.99, Job1- now whip that baby up!

WAIT! Can I change that last 'nuts' on my pizza to 'a Chevy Volt'?

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha..................

Voter-in-LA:

I don't care how loudly people complain that there are 47% who don't pay taxes, one cannot reasonably expect a family barely eking out a living to contribute 9% of their income PLUS an additional 9% Federal Tax while rewarding those in the upper tiers with a reduction in tax rate and an elimination of capital gains. The only way something as simplistic as 9-9-9 can possibly work is by establishing a substantial exemption (similar to what Forbes proposed in the 80's with a figure of $36,000 as an exemption for a family) or a revision of salaries for lower paid people. Cain's assumption that employers would magically pass on the savings realized by the elimination of social security taxes is naive at best. Is there really anyone out there who believes for one minute that corporations would do this?

(emphasis added)

Exactly.

Your whole post is very well stated. Thank you for putting it so clearly.

Voter -- The only good thing about the Cain plan is that it has everyone agreeing we need tax reform! Finally! Let the debates begin!

Voter, DCA, et al -

Here are two pieces I published as 'Vine columns on tax reform concepts:

http://langewinckler.newsvine.com/_news/2011/08/02/7231709-how-to-pay-off-debt-and-save-ss-medicare

http://langewinckler.newsvine.com/_news/2011/01/06/5777407-debt-defecit-and-wise-government

In fact, my own conclusion is that the fundamental progressive tax system is about the only fair way to go. However, there are some lessons of the past - especially from how Britain financed and repaid war debt from the American Revolution - that we might wisely apply now.

As for Herman Cain's tax proposal, it's clearly a simplistic nostrum meant to appeal to those who don't really understand the role of taxes and public policy, or how he would literally shaft the country. The expose of his connection to the heritage Foundation just demonstrates he's also in the back pockets of the very SOBs who created the mess we're all in now.

The dim wit brigade is at it again.

Pres Reagan influenced a tremendous turn around in our economy, one which Obama has completely failed to do. That spending increased is a direct result of an irresponsible DEMOCRAT Congress that Reagan was forced to deal with, as he did NOT believe in vetoing all the bills sent to him by the Democrats.

I wish he would have vetoed more, as spending grew faster than revenues. Just more proof of how irresponsible the Democrat party has been over the past 30+ years.

IR -- Excellent post. So many great posts today.

Let it be on record that I am for a Fair Tax too -- Jan Schakowsky's Fairness in Taxation Act.

John A.-- Thanks for the links and I will give both articles a thorough reading.

BTW - Your post in the previous thread was once again thoughtful, insightful and evidenced with historical triumphs and tragedies but most of all written with heart. So thank you my friend it is much appreciated by many, myself included.

In protest of the collapse cowards, this post should be allowed to stand:

John A.-400474

Deep-rooted, growing public distrust of government in the modern era began during the Vietnam War, and spread generally with the Waergate scandal. Despite the efforts of Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter, both of whom were good men desperately needed at the nation's helm after the corruption and cynicism of Richard Nixon, the taint lingered and was ruthlessly exploited by far-right operatives such as Jack Abramoff and Lyn Nofziger (both of whom ended up jailed for corruption).

The unending efforts of the far right to exploit Americans' fears and uncertainties as the world about them changed at near light speed - the leap from the IBM 360 to the home computer took exactly one year in 1978-79, for example - is chronicled in convincing detail by author Thomas Frank, in The Wrecking Crew: How Conservatives Ruined Government, Enriched Themselves, and Beggared America.

What that account does not discuss, however, is how fomenting political division and generalized disdain of government has really affected the national psyche. And that is a price this country will have to pay for long years to come.

Despite the protests and anger at government misbehavior in the 1960's, particularly after 1968, most young Americans, and a majority of those from the WWII generation, still held a belief in the overall ability of government to act for progress and the general good of the nation. It was a belief that sprang from the post-war era, when America generally prospered, led in rebuilding a devastated world, and held herself as the bulwark against Soviet expansionism.

The postwar decades were a time of achievement, too. Out of the horrors of a Life magazine cover showing hundreds of polio victims in "iron lungs," soon came the news that Jonas Salk had produced a vaccine to protect people from the disease. Early in the 1960's, effective birth control dramatically altered the very basis of women's lives, at home and in society generally. (And some women of the time also gave persistent, loud thanks for pantyhose - and the passing of the corset-cum-garters.)

Commercial aviation expanded at a tremendous rate. The original "pipelines" of the Internet were laid down, largely out of sight, under a government-sponsored program. American food production not only fed the world, but piled up in surpluses, which were eventually supplied to many of the nation's hungry in a dramatic effort to improve the health and well-being especially of children.

A massive highway system stitched the nation together much as a knitter makes an antimacassar for the wing chair. Inventions streamed from American universities, largely aided by various government research grants. Inventions also streamed from the government programs that put men into space, and onto the moon.

In the mid-1960's, faith in government to improve the nation overall enabled creation of Medicare, Head Start and numerous other programs. The government seriously addressed the inequities of locally-administered welfare programs, establishing national standards that displaced often petty and arbitrary decisions about elegibility. And, of course, Civil Rights and voting rights legislation began to do away with vicious discrimination and disenfranchisement.

Over time, however, relentless propaganda, mis-information campaigns, and at times intentional sabotage of government operations created the myth that government was inefficient, unreliable, overexpensive, and simply unnecessary. When tied to the distrust of government generally that followed Vietnam and Watergate, public confidence in public institutions began crumbling.

One tragic example is public trust in the state and national judiciary. Political conflict over judicial nominations increased the time required for people to bring thier issues to the courts, while a steady strangling of finances for salaries, support staff and facilities in many states further limited opportunities for timely justice. And people responded, seeing the problems, by supporting yet further cuts in financial support for the justice system - the exact opposite of what is needed to resolve clogged calendars and overworked people.

Similarly, such public institutions as state agencies to address family issues, especially the needs of abandoned, orphaned or abused children, have seen financial resources steadily dwindle. In Florida, the Department of Families and Children has been riven with scandal for at least a decade. Case workers, many of whom earn less than $20,000 a year, attempt to deal with upwards of 200 open files constantly. But the public is led to believe that the dedicated personnel are incompetent bumblers - so why devote tax dollars to them?

The litany could continue. The assault on public institutions from the right wing ideologues is literally an assault on the nation as a whole. The damage done to general public confidence in public institutions is terrible - and the propagandists pushing that are despicable.

Gingerbread Mamma, greetings! The GOP/TP has no platform at all really, because the only alternative to the old, failed supply-side "trickle-down" voodoo economics is a progressive platform embraced by Dems.

Also, they have learned they suck a governing, and governing is too much work. They use machinations to grab power and hold on to it -- Though some of their "strategery" such as taking control of states and local government for purposes of gerrymandering/electoral college manipulation, voter suppression, etc. (the list is too long to type here) seems like a lot of hard work, and one wonders why they don't just do the work instead of cheating.

But definitely hitching their wagon to the Tea Party has been a dangerous gamble. They now find themselve being "primaried" per the purity tests you mention. Swing voters never go for extremism.

And he's not actually an outsider either.....anyone who has been on the FedReserve Board is NOT an outsider by any means.

The only answer is to let Business bring the Country out of this depression! Everyday is like groundhog day the movie! Neither Party has in it's power the capability to stop the blocks of the other Party. Thus no matter who becomes President no change.

The answer is to have companies like the New GM bring out the Spark all Electric Vehicle. Or Honda or Ford! Each uses their Engineers to Creat Value through innovative thought. Gone are the days of Regan who was the great communicator.

Example.. Obama holds the trade agreement for 5years it's passed as the second coming of Christ! OK the Republicans and Democrats use it as working together. Well where where they for 5yrs.

The true way out of the mess we are in is to cut the spending on WAR! McCain would have us in this forever! It's his support from the War Companies. Take his 4trillion and use it here. All our problems go away! We can use our Preditors to monitor and keep the Bad Guys in Check.

Need smart Business CEO's with good Union..guys like King UAW or other cooperative people to bring us back. Remember the 5$ an hour jobs in Texas just won't cut it. Perry says a family of 4 must all work. The rich say OK they can get trailers to live in. Not so! The wages must be part of a National Strategy as well as making things. Stop the overseas investment and bring it home. Start people at 15 an hour with Health care! Get them a path to 30 an hour. Ask all americans to buy now each month and push sales and employment. Cains 999 plan could work. Give the money back into the hands of the people and bring in the tax revenues.

• !

#61 - Thu Oct 13, 2011 12:51 PM EDT

John, you're absolutely correct. I believe he is incapable of maintaining bloated and wasteful big government.

And Anti-Trust, someone who has been on the Fed Reserve Board, well-versed in it's inner workings, should have some unique insight on how to overhaul it, if it is indeed in need of an overhaul.

Dear Cain Supporters -- If nothing else posted above gives you cause for pause, Voter-in-LA wrote:

The aspect most appear to be missing is that 9-9-9 is meant as an INITIAL step to appeal to those for a flat tax, corporate tax review and a fairer tax in a system where to an extent everyone is expected to contribute.

That is what we call a "slippery slope," or what conservatives call a "gateway" to hell. If a Democrat proposed such assumptions your hair would be on fire.

In regard to Soros, which is the best the right-wing can do in response to the Koch brothers, Dick Armey, Rupert Morduch, Karl Rove, etc. -- Warren Buffet spanked these right-wingers by providing his tax return information and informing these idiots that they can simply look at IRS statistics to see what the top 400 most wealthy Americans pay in taxes. Then Buffet asked to see Murdoch's tax returns, which has not been forthcoming.

TP, Buffet didn't spank right-wingers so much as he made himself the tax accountants' laughing stock. Not only did he completely miss the fact that he's getting double-taxed on his dividends when he made his comments about his effective tax rate (i.e. the 15% rate is applied to earnings that have already been hit with the 35% corporate tax rate, something your IRS stats overlooks), but he's also sheltered the bulk of his wealth in trusts, the ultimate tax avoidance weapon.

Either Buffet has a hidden agenda, or he's simply going senile and needs to go back to plunking his ukulele...

Rob lotsanumbers:

It should suffice to point out that the corporate rate of 35% is the nominal rate. You have no idea what tax rate those corporations paid. You do not know how much of his income is capital gains, dividends, interest, or even outright wages. Buffett and his accountants have provided the rate he paid.

As usual the lefty - True Patriot - understands arithmetic. The right-winger is in the dark. That's why you're a right-winger.

Mr. Walker,

You're right - 35% is the nominal rate, and is subject to exceptions, deductions, and the ability to carryforward/carryback losses to offset. Buffett and his accountants did not take any of that into account when they provided the rate he paid (if you don't believe me, look it up!).

Typical left-winger, drawing erroneous conclusions to spin your warped idealogy, and hoping the rest of us are too stupid to figure it out. I'm not sorry to disappoint you!

Rob lotsanumbers:

Let's start here. I most certainly am not hoping you're too stupid to figure anything out. To the contrary. The smarter you are, the more likely you are to understand why leaning leftward is preferable to swallowing the current right-wing ideology, which leads to fear and hatred.

Now, the fact is Mr. Buffett's tax rate - as he stated - is less than anyone else in his office. That is the point. In the main, thanks to the capital gains tax travesty, his rate is 15%.

Your attempt to deflect reality and direct attention away from the tax rate disparity is weak. The fact remains he is taxed at a lesser rate than his employees.

What he's reported confirms Buffett receives lots of dividnd income and that he also declares a considerable amount of capital gains, both of which are subject to a 15 percent tax rate on an individual tax return. What he did not mention, however, is that corporations pay a 35 percent tax before distributing dividends to shareholders (dividends are not deductible to the corporation), so the actual effective tax rate on that portion of Buffett’s income is closer to 50 percent.

The capital gains tax is another example of double taxation. An increase in the value of a stock is a reflection of an anticipated increase in the future income stream from that stock. Yet that income stream will be taxed (usually two times!) when it occurs. The real effective rate on that portion of Buffett’s income is harder to calculate, but it certainly is far higher than 15 percent.

Shifting gears, Buffett’s calculations include Social Security payroll taxes, which only apply to the first $90,000 of income in exchange for not providing huge benefit payments to rich retirees. Indeed, the overall program is highly progressive once benefit payments are added to the equation, so Buffett’s secretary gets a better deal than he does from Social Security (though both would be better off with a system of personal retirement accounts).

To put real numbers to it: Buffett said that his federal tax bill last year was $6,938,744. However, his primarily source of wealth comes from his ownership in Berkshire Hathaway, which he has an economic ownership of around 23% and grows to over 26% if you include the shares he has donated to the Gates Foundation. Last year, Berkshire had Current Taxes of $3.668 billion, of which as much as $2.944 billion was domestic. This means that Buffet's tax bill on his personal tax return plus his proportionate amount of taxes he paid through Berkshire was about $772 million, not $7 million.

This $772 million of taxes does not include his proportionate ownership of any of the corporate taxes paid by his portfolio companies such as American Express (12.7% ownership), Coca Cola (8.7%), Conoco Phillips (2.1%), Kraft (5.6%), Johnson & Johnson (1.5%), Procter & Gamble (2.8%), U.S. Bancorp (3.6%), Wal-Mart (1.1%), and Wells Fargo (6.7%). Including his proportion of the Current Federal Tax that these companies paid, and his ownership in Berkshire, this adds another $110 million to his overall tax payments.

Buffett thinks he is being “coddled” when he paid, either directly or through his ownership in corporations, at least $872 million in taxes last year alone!

Rob lotsanumbers:

I'll tell you what. You actually sound like a reasonable sort. Let's take a look at this. I'll try to put aside my viscera for the moment.

Much of our difference turns on how many times and places income is taxed. To get right down to basics, it would be very hard to say how many times it is taxed. For instance, I buy a head of lettuce. Included in the price is the tax that the seller must pay, the tax the farmer who grew it must pay, and so on.

At some point someone has to pay the final tax, and without meaning to get into some sort of philosophical brouhaha, one must ask if anyone ever pays the final tax. For the sake of discussion though, let's just say it's the grocery retailer. At the end of the year, the books are closed and they pay their taxes, which we both know will never hit 35%. That's not the issue though.

Out of the store's revenues, they will pay their employees, who will pay taxes, and buy goods, and within the price of the goods, they will pay taxes. It just goes around and around. With respect to your double taxation point on dividends, we could make the same case for the wages of the employee. To further complicate matters we could even suggest that the employee's portfolio includes his company's stock. He might have it in a tax-deferred account and we have no idea what his tax rate will be when he begins withdrawals.

Whether we can come to agreement on that fundamental issue is not really the point. The point is the inequity in the tax code. That must be addressed. The simplistic 9-9-9 plan is not the answer. Most other "simple" tax reforms will not work either as they fail to address the reality that private enterprise is extremely risk averse and require special tax treatment, government incentives, and so on. Additionally, there are other expenses that must be handled by government, like defense. We can leave the social aspects of taxation for another day.

I do think you are making an erroneous assumption about the value of stocks. At one time, I shared you view, but I have since been persuaded that the notion that the value of a stock is based on anticipated earning, ROI, and other such rational indicators. I am now persuaded that the market is anything but rational. The cost of a stock in no way reflects its true value, in the same way the price of a home does not necessarily reflect its true value. I think we are still learning that lesson.

I have absolutely no problem accepting your figures as fact. However, I think you are talking apples and oranges. His personal wealth is one issue, and the taxes on his assets must be treated separately. His personal income is another issue and that is what we are talking about.

Again, our discussion - and I think we agree in the main - if nothing else illustrates the fact that our tax structure is a complete mess. I hate to admit it, but I am long of tooth, comfortable, and although I expect more from my countrymen, this country has been very good to me and if I pay a few more bucks into the treasury, I really don't care.

As to Buffett, I'm pretty sure we may not be in the same financial stratum, but we share the same view with respect to taxes.

By the way, your point about the double taxation of dividends explains the incredible fight over the preservation of the odious "carried interest" tax rate. It makes me want to puke. At some point, it is not unreasonable to say enough is enough.

I will be looking forward to reading more of your posts.

David,

Thank you for shelving the vitriol. I understand the point you're making regarding the potentially infinite number of times a cash stream gets taxed, however there is a fundamental difference between employee wages and dividends - the wages are deductible for corporate tax purposes, the dividends are not; wages pre-tax, dividends post-tax. The same is essentially the case with capital gains - any realized capital gain is not tax deductible to the related entity, but the entity's net tax liability reduces entity value. I take it from your comments that you think this last point is debatable - and perhaps it is, but for a different reason than you assert - rather, the tax liability is baked in to value at both the buy-in and the sell, so that the tax effect on the delta (i.e. the gain or loss) is a wash. This sounds reasonable theoretically, but in practice it's imperfect, given entity tax liabilities (or tax assets, if the entity is coming off a string of annual losses) are a moving target. Bottom line, an investor puts her/his capital to hopefully productive use (note I'm not basing any arguments on the fact that such capital was accumulated post-tax, which I think is more where you were going), gambling that she/he won't lose it all, and that capital is impacted by taxes before any benefit to the investor can be realized (and as I mentioned previously, that benefit is in no way tax-deductible). An employee invests their time and effort - that time and effort is not taxed at any point in the process other than the point the employee is paid (and the employee's wages are tax deductible to their employer).

Taking a step back, we are in agreement that our tax structure is a complete mess. It's sickening to think of all the millions (billions?) wasted in this country annually for the purpose of navigating the tax code, and what the opportunity cost of those wasted monies has been (e.g. Could it have been the capital necessary to find a cure for cancer? We'll never know.)

I think we're long overdue for a massive tax overhaul, and one of the things I admire about Cain is that he's the only candidate who's taking a serious shot at it. I don't happen to agree with the 9-9-9 structure for a variety of reasons, but I appreciate that any debate has to start somewhere. Usually, progress occurs when people have something to edit, even if only an outline.

Philosophically, I have no problem with a progressive rate structure, but I don't think anyone should pay no Federal income tax for the multitude of benefits of being a U.S. citizen. Even if it's only $50/yr., everyone 18 and over should pay something. Why? Because it's basic human nature not to value that which you don't invest in. I think if everyone paid something, you'd see more people paying attention, and more people truly holding their government representatives accountable for making sure their tax dollars are being spent in the most efficient and effective manner possible.

Unfortunately, we've been trending the opposite way in this country, with a greater % of the population paying no Federal income taxes now than has been the case in recent history.

A 2008 study by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, for example, found that the highest-earning 10% of the U.S. population paid the largest share among the 24 countries examined, even after adjusting for their relatively higher incomes. (This took into account Federal, State and Local taxes.)

Meanwhile, the percentage of U.S. households paying no federal income tax has been climbing, and reached 51% for 2009. Our Federal legislators are motivated to continue the trend, because once Federal taxpayers are in the minority in this country, they can piss and moan all they want about government waste, but they're outvoted by those who could care less about government waste (because it's not their money getting wasted, right?).

This dynamic is one of the problems that has brought Greece to its present situation. Is it any wonder that tax evasion is so rampant when the tax paying minority is dictated-to by a majority who reap the benefits of those tax dollars?

Pleassee, like Rush will endorse a black man...

I agree Rush. I think these teapublicans should find somebody even crazier than Bachmann. What Christine (I'm not a witch) O'Donnell doing these days???

I thought Rush WAS the Republican establishment?

One thing is for sure. Romney will make a flip flopper out of his supporters. They have to gravitate to him once he's nominated. He is a liberal and he is a political hoodwink. Please save those Rush quotes for the Summer!

Another question is when Romney is the nominee, will he be so damaged by the primary season and the "anyone but Romney" crowd that he cannot win the general election?

That news is not going to bode well with the RWNJ's ya know!

Especially the granny poll dancer... lol

Thanks for sharing!

Um, Dennis? They have a serious problem with their weighting.

The anomaly becomes pretty obvious when you look into the past poll results- the October, 2010, poll shows that 44% of those polled preferred a Democrat controlled congress, with 44% preferring a Republican controlled congress.

Republicans won the midterms by 8 points, which means their weighting was off by 7 to 13 points, given a 3 point margin of error.

I won't go into all the math that proves that there is an anomaly- but, consider this scenario-

Suppose you were a market research firm advising an ice cream shop. You delivered results that showed, by a large measure, people preferred strawberry ice cream- so the shop owner overstocked that flavor.

When the doors open, they are short 10 gallons of vanilla, 6 gallons of chocolate, and overstocked by 15 gallons of strawberry.

Obviously, your weighting was off, so, if you wanted to stay in the co silting business, you'd have to adjust your weighting. To do that, you need to go back and figure out where you went wrong in the first place.

This far out, political polling firms don't bother- if they ever do. There are rare examples of polling firms actually making the adjustments necessary to make certain their polling is actually reflective of reality- usually it is only done when they can no longer sell their services due to past inaccuracies.

Somehow, I don't see NBC much caring about that- though I'm surprised the WSJ does not care.

On the other hand, I have no idea how long their contract runs. When it's up, I guess we'll see.

There is a typo in the stats- should read 44 prefer republican congress, 46 democrat. Sorry.

Everyone knew that as soon as a poll is mentioned it wouldn’t be long before granny poll dancer would appear and put her biased slant on it. Her 2¢ will cost you two hundred million dollars a day.

That's all you've got, Dennis? An ad hominem attack?

Just a clue- you've just done more to validate my response to your post than a "Here, Here".

Thanks.

no joe, you are again spot on, but don't worry, the libs will have plenty of time to navel gaze after the 2012 election where they again have their hats handed to them.

They will blame anything and everything but their failed ideas and policies.

Fancy This Too

How about the lady who depends on right-wing talk show hosts for her opinons, including Rush Limbaugh - double yikes!

And we wonder why we get unqualified dingbats in Congress?

Well Jody, you're onto something here.

If voters chose the surgeon that will operate on them the way they pick their Representatives, the population of the US would be in rapid decline. A label, a TV commercial, and a little pandering is all it takes to get their money and votes. Then they complain about "Congress", without acknowledging their role in creating it and scream for term limits as the fix. Of course, we have term limits capabilities today; they're called elections.

Right you all are. How else would the general voting population have elected a President with zero leadership skills, zero record of legislation with any merit, and zero experience?

CA did the same thing with the governator, and now we have the moonbeam handing out college funds to illegal aliens.

We truly have become the laughing stock of the globe.

It's the military philosophy, KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid. He's counting on the majority of the public as being stupid enough to buy the plan, which is nothing more than corporate welfare. It won't help job growth and it will widen the gap between classes.

KISS is also an advertising principle that I could never convince my clients they needed to follow....they always wanted to put 10 #'s of s#$t in a 5# bag as the old saying goes. But soundbites also get you into trouble, as they are never truthful....a word or two taken out of context. But that is the nature of politics these days. Just another reason we all need to be involved in the Popular Amendment Movement to help pass the Election/Campaign Finance Reform constitutional amendment. Go to www.faircampaignreform.us and http://wh.gov/4Qu to get involved. IF we can get at least 5,000 "signatures" on the White House petition, it will be advanced to the president. The Popular Amendment Movement is truly a grassroots movement with NO real organization other than the website and whatever LOCAL grassroots organization you yourself help to create in YOUR community. "Take back" your government by helping to get this amendment passed.

BTW that is 5,000 signatures by 10/27, just 15 days left to sign that petition to get it advanced.

Good points in your post and thanks for the info on the petition, anti-trust proponent.

But that $9.99 pizza will actually cost you $11.77. First you have to add the state and local sales tax (in most of the US) ; then you add Mr. Cain's new national sales tax and, presto, you're now pushing 12 bucks, even before you add the tip to his delivery driver. You will also see your weekly grocery bill go up by 9%, and your $4 a gallon gas go to $4.36. You will be able to save the tax though, if you buy used pizza and used gas. That's capitalism in action; create new market opportunities.

You're welcome Jody. I'm one of those American citizens who has NO vote in Congress and no vote for the president, since I moved to the US Virgin Islands 11/16/95. So, I have just been helping to promote the PAM petition. I gave up my "voice" when I left OH for tropical weather for my health.

I don't understand how in a country with 315 million people, these 7 bubbled to the top? Seriously. The GOP can't find anyone?? They've had 4 years!

The comments here are all geared towards the top two republican presidential candidates and why they should not be elected. I don't see that any of that really matters. Their economic plans for the country are just pie in the sky political talking points for their campaigns. Let's face facts, liberals will vote to keep what they have, conservatives will vote for the republican candidate (no matter who) and independents will vote for change (to the republican) if the economy has not significantly improved come November 2012. Look back at the 2008 election. That's exactly what happened. It did not matter at that time to the independents that the person they were electing to the office of the president was a complete unknown. He had no significant background or experience in government, the military, business or in any type of a leadership role. He did not even have a specific economic plan to offer up. He won by a huge margin based on nothing more than a promise of hope and change. He would be different than George Bush was his main strategy for the country. Well, 3 years in and nothing has changed and hope is withering. We are still engaged in two wars, the economy and unemployment is far worse off than it was in 2008. Our deficit has skyrocketed because of massive government spending that has accomplished nothing. So, I find it rather humorous to read these comments attacking republican candidates. What is lacking here is an explanation from liberals as to why the current president should be allowed to keep his job. Continuing to blame the bad economy on Bush, the Tea Party and the Republicans in general is getting so tiresome and holds no water anymore. Obama's current strategy of blaming the rich and Wall Street is also nothing more than just another pathetic excuse for his failures as the leader of our country. Yes, hope and change will again surface in 2012, only this time it will be a republican offering it up as an alternative to what we have.

Hey looky here Drive By is stating to get that more taxes are bad.

Good for you Drive By.

Yo, 'counsellor'- Does my comment indicate 'more' or 'ALL' taxes?

Does it specify a particular tax, or approve of all of them equally?

Are being a tad dishonest here, as usual, or just trying to be cute?

Good to see you Bryan - trust the twins are doing well & Mom & Dad are getting plenty of sleep? ;o)

Sleep is a challenge, but everyone is doing fine. Not alot of time for politics these days. Good to see that everyone is holding the fort here.

Actually Charlie, Cain has already proven that, but the Tea Partiers have not caught up with that yet. Give them a little more time. Dr. Paul is just someone who thinks the late 18th century is the perfect model for American society. Ideologically constrained from reality, but not stupid.

98% of everyone thinks Cain is the uncle from the 'Boondocks'

*spelled ruckus with a ck for the other 2% who need to google it.

Whenever I talk with clients about tax planning, everyone gets to a consensus that taxes will be going up and so we plan for it. Why aren't the politicians recognizing that what the Tea Party advocates is not what the nation wants?

No, they'll swallow the pill and pull the Republican lever regardless.

(They'll also close their eyes and cross their fingers behind their back...)

the mitt analogy was really funny; but no way Cain goes the distance.

"Mitt" definitely has 100% more "it" than "Cain" does, both in spelling and with the backing of the GOP leadership and mainstream voters.

dangerfield:

The Republican Party is the problem. The Republican party has no plan for helping middle class Americans, only corporate people. You cannot tell me what their plan is, because they don't have one. The plans they used to have, they rejected once the President said he liked it. Now that is just the facts. I don't really care to have any "discussions" with you anywho. What's to discuss?

"I don't really care to have any "discussions" with you anywho. What's to discuss?"

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That about sums up the "Philosophy" of a lot of folks here on both sides.

How can you have a discussion with anyone when you are totally right and they are totally wrong?

dangerfield:

As much as I am enjoying discussing discussions with you . . . :o) . . . if you have a specific problem with something that I wrote . . . how about you just spit it out?

I am sharing my perspective. Feel free to share yours.

My comment isn't directed solely at you, or even primarily at you and I would be happy if you actually did have me on ignore as you have stated on several occasions and were not so compelled to "reply"

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If you depict the other side as a cartoon, that's probably how they see you. If you see your opposition as a caricature, the same is true...

dangerfield:

I guess I got confused when you quoted a line from my post . . . silly me.

P.S. I do have you on ignore . . . I guess I started missing you . . . sad, I know. :o)

You don't have to respond...not everyone is compelled to reply to every reference.

As you have been so fond of saying, "Don't flatter yourself"...:)

Your hyper-partisan quote was a perfect illustration of my statement, period.

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If you depict the other side as a cartoon, that's probably how they see you. If you see your opposition as a caricature, the same is true...

dangerfield:

So in closing, you cannot refute what I said, you just don't like the way I said it. That's cool. You have a great day . . . I am indeed flattered that you took the time to read my comment and share your thoughts . . . that's all a girl can ask for! :o)

*muah!*

I am clearly refuting your entire hyper-partisan slant that blames only one side...

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...that's all a girl can ask for! :o)

That and a burning desire to always have the last word...

dangerfield,

Does the sun every shine in your world? You are truly a downer sometimes. Is there a prize for having the "last word" or something? Maybe I was just trying to cheer your grumpy @$$ up? lol

Cleary, that ain't gonna happen. I will leave you to your whining.

Everything anyone would ever want to know about you is in this one post...

It encapsulates your attitudes perfectly.

Thank you for illustrating the point so clearly.

Another "Republican du jour"!

The problems is that the ideology is so flawed that no reasonable person could possibly support it with a serious face. That's not to say that there are not good elements in it or that some solutions should not be implemented. But, the candidate is forced into having to support the whole "dumb" position and not even the dumbest one in the group can be that dumb (Ok, maybe Sarah).

Look at Perry, a career politician that has had to make deals over time that conflict with what the right wants today. The result: Crash and Burn.

Herman Cain is not a serious candidate. He is like Sarah Palin...

It is all about the Benjamins. In his case, selling books.