Not to mention that "LogicRequired" guy who scoffed at me earlier when I said the same thing.

I guess the Tax Policy Center doesn't know anything, either.

I think First Read will be waiting a long time :)

First Read will update when we hear back

JoAnna...About as often as we read your posts hoping to find something coherent.

Taxing the middle class more in order to reduce corporate tax is directly and obviously the implication of 9 9 9.

What's scary is that there are actually a few people who actually don't understand, so lets explain to them.

You go to WalMart.

You pay a 9% (higher) sales tax on EVERYTHING YOU BUY.

In exchange - WalMart gets to see its tax rates REDUCED TO 9%.

^ Cain tries to claim WalMart would *give you* the money back with lower prices (???)

This is insane - since it is obvious that the higher prices - reduce sales - (you can't afford to buy as much, when it costs more)

Walmart makes up for with the higher post tax profits.

In short - you are poorer.

You buy less.

Walmart makes more money in spite of your buying less.

Walmart then fires workers it doesn't need thus making even more profit by lowering expenses on reduced sales volume.

It worsens every negative trend in the current economy.

This is trickle-down economics on 'crack cocaine'. Only Rush Limbaugh could love this.

Yep.

The hyperbole about the 40% or 47% who don't pay taxes is still being propagated on FAUX Noise, but is still just as untrue. This percentage refers only to federal taxes, and not other taxes including FICA, sales tax, etc. The only reason federal taxes are not owed by this large a percent now is because of the Great Recession, though more and more people have fallen below the poverty line even before the Great Recession thanks to Teapublican voodoo economics.

If the right-wing Haters were educated on the issue instead of misinformed repeatedly by FAUX Noise, and then gave the matter some thought, they would talk about ending write-offs including the ones they cherish like $1,000 per child, and most of all they would talk about ways to reduce poverty and solutions for getting people back to work. By nurturing a middle class instead of destroying it, demand would increase. It is the working class that must spend on basic needs, not the rich. But if you want income tax revenue, you should have passed the Jobs Act and at least try to create some damn jobs.

At the minimum the right-wing should focus on the multi-millionaires and how the surtax is equal to taxing the poor 100%, and not the other way around -- Who can bear the burden and who can't? Sales taxes are even worse than a flat tax in placing more burden on the middle class and working poor. If Teabaggers want to ensure people pay taxes get rid of the damn loopholes. It's so obvious, only a complete idiot can't see this.

Whoopsie!

From last night;

When a co-moderator told Cain that an analysis showed that the plan would add to the deficit, he replied, “The problem with that analysis is that it is incorrect.”

By golly then, that explanation should be good enough for the low information voters... lol

The rest of us? eh... not so much!

Cain's 999 plan is just another way to tell you he is for the 1%.

If Herman Cain truly holds a degree in Mathematics, and he truly earned it, then it must be blindingly obvious that he plans to destroy the government of the United States.

Current contributions from employers and employees to Social Security and Medicare total 15.3%. However, employees right now have a cut in that rate thanks to President Obama. (That's correct right-wingers. That's a tax CUT Republicans suddenly find repugnant. Know why it's repugnant? Because only the rich are supposed to have tax cuts. Cain wants to increase the rate on the employee and drop it altogether for the employer.) In any case, if Social Security is untenable at the current withholding rate, how can it survive when the contribution is cut from 15.3% to 9%. It cannot survive. Cain's plan is designed to kill Social Security AND Medicare. No amount of spin or lying is going to change that fact.

Even as take home pay is dropping for a low-wage worker, Cain proposes a brand new 9% federal sales tax to further impoverish the majority of Americans. A sales tax is the most regressive of all taxes, and the low-wage worker is now hammered again.

Meantime, the rich are seeing their taxes drop enormously. The current 15% tax rate on capital gains drops to 9%. Folks, most of us will never even see capital gains. That is the province of the rich and the well-to-do. If you by chance have capital gains, they are in your 401(k) or IRA and you can't touch those now anyway without paying a penalty before you retire. Outside of capital gains and a few other items, the tax rate for the wealthiest is at 35%. That will drop to 9%. If you can't see that is going to destroy the country, then you are either very, very wealthy and don't care, or you are a self-destructive Republican.

The estate tax? Come on now, who has estates? The rich, of course. Ask yourself this simple question. Will dead rich people really need their vast stores of wealth. NO, a thousand times NO. They're dead. If they want to leave their money to their kids, there are now provisions in the law to facilitate that transfer of wealth. Dead people don't need money.

You have to be deaf, dumb, blind, and stupid to believe that Cain's insane 9-9-9 plan will benefit anyone but the very wealthiest people in this country at the expense of the vast majority of Americans. I'm not peddling fear, I'm offering you plain facts.

Herman Cain is a stone-cold liar. He really, really hates people who aren't rich.

Come on now, did it come out of a Republicans mouth. Enough said.

"Taxing the middle class more in order to reduce corporate tax is directly and obviously the implication of 9 9 9."

Sounds like *gasp* "re-distribution".

Sheeeit- maybe ol' Bawkmann was right after all with all that 6 6 6 yammering....

My only question is if I buy online, can I avoid state and federal sales tax? Couple that with working for cash under the table and I am GE.

Wow, maybe they proved everyone (rich or poor) doesn't pay enough in taxes.

A gross income of $50,000 which is in the '15%' tax bracket and they only pay 1.53%

One thing that wasn't mentioned is the payroll taxes (ss & medicare 7.65%) would go away under the 9-9-9 plan and is currently taken off the gross which is $3,825 on $50,000...

I dont like Cain's plan and I hate the national sales tax but some of the misinformation and quotes from Tax Policy institute taken out of context are bad. First David, a sales tax is not the most regressive of all taxes. As I have shown to you before, the lottery, which is a state tax in its application and use of proceeds, is the most regressive of all taxes. Second, if you think sales taxes are so regressive, how come you arent campaigning to eliminate them at all levels of government in your fight for the nanny state? Its an easy fix, all you need to do is exempt food, health care and a variety of other items from the sales tax and its no longer regressive. The math is easier to understand when you use dollars instead of percentages. When you middle class person buys the used car for $5,000 the new sales tax adds $450 dollars to the price of the car and when the doctor or small business owner buys the $50,000 BMW, it adds $4,500. Thats a huge difference in money to the state and where do you think in real dollars all the tax revenue is coming from? The rich who consume right? Further, the person's Walmart example doesnt work because adding that much in sales tax will dramatically decrease demand and sales hurting profits. All the major retailers hate the Cain plan and any additional national VAT.

As for the other misinformation--can you guys please be consistent. Do the rich pay tax now or not? I read on this board constantly that the rich dont pay any tax and they are funding this country off the backs of the middle class. Well this article seems to say that the rich pay 35% plus payroll taxes and the poor and middle class basically pay nothing. I dont see that statistic to be something to be proud of. True Patriot has a post above that directly refutes this article by slamming Fox news disputing that the poor and middle class dont pay tax. You have to be consistent do they or dont they. Because if they dont then Cains plan increases their tax burden. But as you really know the rich do pay all the income tax today so Cain's plan does decrease their income tax burden which isnt necessarily made up by the national sales tax. I wish Cain had called it a 20/20 plan and eliminated the sales tax and made a flat tax on individuals and corporations that was fair and simple.

Finally can I ask one progressive that actually understands corporate tax, how companies compete and price their goods or how corporate tax impacts the value of the corporation which is owned by the union pension plans and 401(k) plans to explain to me why they keep harping on making corporations paying their fair share? I understand the GE issue and eliminating loopholes but when someone says taxing the middle class to reduce corporate tax is bad, I cringe because all you are doing is replacing one tax on the middle class for another tax on the middle class. I understand the class warfare appeal politically (although I think its a position that continues to fail in popularity) for rich individuals but I dont understand why the pro big tax issue for corporations as the impact of corporate taxes isnt on the rich.

I dont like Cain's plan and I hate the national sales tax but some of the misinformation and quotes from Tax Policy institute taken out of context are bad. First David, a sales tax is not the most regressive of all taxes. As I have shown to you before, the lottery, which is a state tax in its application and use of proceeds, is the most regressive of all taxes. Second, if you think sales taxes are so regressive, how come you arent campaigning to eliminate them at all levels of government in your fight for the nanny state? Its an easy fix, all you need to do is exempt food, health care and a variety of other items from the sales tax and its no longer regressive. The math is easier to understand when you use dollars instead of percentages. When you middle class person buys the used car for $5,000 the new sales tax adds $450 dollars to the price of the car and when the doctor or small business owner buys the $50,000 BMW, it adds $4,500. Thats a huge difference in money to the state and where do you think in real dollars all the tax revenue is coming from? The rich who consume right? Further, the person's Walmart example doesnt work because adding that much in sales tax will dramatically decrease demand and sales hurting profits. All the major retailers hate the Cain plan and any additional national VAT.

As for the other misinformation--can you guys please be consistent. Do the rich pay tax now or not? I read on this board constantly that the rich dont pay any tax and they are funding this country off the backs of the middle class. Well this article seems to say that the rich pay 35% plus payroll taxes and the poor and middle class basically pay nothing. I dont see that statistic to be something to be proud of. True Patriot has a post above that directly refutes this article by slamming Fox news disputing that the poor and middle class dont pay tax. You have to be consistent do they or dont they. Because if they dont then Cains plan increases their tax burden. But as you really know the rich do pay all the income tax today so Cain's plan does decrease their income tax burden which isnt necessarily made up by the national sales tax. I wish Cain had called it a 20/20 plan and eliminated the sales tax and made a flat tax on individuals and corporations that was fair and simple.

Finally can I ask one progressive that actually understands corporate tax, how companies compete and price their goods or how corporate tax impacts the value of the corporation which is owned by the union pension plans and 401(k) plans to explain to me why they keep harping on making corporations paying their fair share? I understand the GE issue and eliminating loopholes but when someone says taxing the middle class to reduce corporate tax is bad, I cringe because all you are doing is replacing one tax on the middle class for another tax on the middle class. I understand the class warfare appeal politically (although I think its a position that continues to fail in popularity) for rich individuals but I dont understand why the pro big tax issue for corporations as the impact of corporate taxes isnt on the rich.

I disagree with this "non-partisan" groups quick, without all the facts findings. But also I find it funny that no one is asking the question, will this help the economy? Will this create jobs? I mean everyone talks about change and how they want a better economy but then they crap on any real new ideas. Do you think the 2,500 page 5 million word tax law we have now is much better for our struggling economy? To be honest, and again I think they are wrong on some of there assumptions, but I think more Americans should have some skin in the game when it comes to taxes. When only half the country pays taxes it is real easy for the other half to scream they want more. Maybe Americans would pay more attention to the spending and waste if it was not just someone elses money being wasted. Bottom line is it would be such a change from the our inefficient norm the economy would grow faster then it has in years, in my opinion.

Kirk:

I have tried to remain civil with you, but you do not deserve to be treated as anything more than a troll. Only in the world of the brain dead is a lottery the same thing as a tax.

A sales tax is the most regressive of all taxes. Period.

David, I live in the state of Illinois. The state lottery was originally created to fund the shortfall in the states education budget. The money generated from the lottery goes directly into the state revenues reallocating other state funds into government programs. The lottery is marketed and sold in areas with high sales. It comes directly out of the cash flow of the money you earn and every state economist in the state of Illinois equates the lottery with another state tax. We actually had a white paper put together by the civic federation against additional gambling using the state lottery as a regressive tax on the poor as its main theme. So I assume all of these people are brain dead too. Sometimes your inability to critically think and have thoughtful discussions with people is your biggest weakness. In this study, it was found that the highest generated revenue in lottery sales is in the poorest zipcodes in the state which is why they consider it a regressive tax.

Why is this so hard for you to understand? In fact I have never had anyone debate me or dispute the lottery regressive tax view before. I am starting to question your financial acumen

Kirk, let me take a stab at it. Corporations are the only entity that can be taxed and kept fairly honest. Think of the underground economy in the US. I am not saying it is right, just there are too many tax cheats in the US. If we could collect the taxes they owe, we probably would not be having this discussion.

Kirk:

One last time. The fact that the lottery raises revenues that accrue to the state does not make it a tax.

To follow your line of "reasoning" a burro is a truck because it carries freight. A bird is an airplane because it flies, and a pile of crap is a rose because it has an odor.

Read your own post. You write that the lottery is marketed. It is a game of chance and one plays it voluntarily. A tax is not marketed. A tax is imposed externally. The decision to play the lottery is internal.

That a disproportionate number of poor play the lottery has absolutely no bearing on whether a lottery is a tax. If nothing else, it may explain why they are poor. They make poor decisions.

Question my financial acumen as you wish. My arithmetic is absolutely correct. It is your understanding of the English language that is questionable.

You need not respond.

David, yes I do question your blind ideology that prevents you from agreeing with anything that comes from a conservative or someone like me. Stop and think of what you said as something that distinguishes the lottery from a tax. So I guess you see gasoline, telecommunications excise taxes or cigarette taxes as really not taxes because they are voluntary? By the way these taxes are far more regressive too than a national sales tax because the cost of these items in total usage is the same across income lines.

I am tired of arguing with you on such basic economic concepts. Certainly the Illinois democrats consider the lottery as a tax just as other gaming voluntary taxes but it's ok if you dont

Ir12, my question was not enforcement or elimination of loopholes but why it appears that progressives equate taxing corporations with the class warfare agenda and that it's the same as taxing the wealthy when it's really more of a flat tax on everyone including hitting the middle class

BS about corporate taxes being honest -- The only people who can't cheat are W2 employees subjected to third-party reporting. Not only can the self employed/business owners use write-offs to show zero income, they along with corporations can afford a team of accountants to set-up tax shelters and find all the loopholes to do so.

Kirk -- What do you have, diarrhea of the keyboard? Take it easy dude or you may suffer spontaneous combustion.

True patriot, give me examples. What you just said might be the most idiotic response so far. Let's use a real example, a hallmark store. It sells a card for 1 dollar. Is the cost of buying that card from the creator a write off? How about rent? How about payroll for it's employees? A cost of doing business might be a write off just like your mortgage deduction so stop saying such stupid comments.

As for a team of accountants setting up tax shelters, can you name me one illegal tax shelter? How about a legal tax shelter that's not a real cost of doing business?

Finally, my question has nothing to do honesty or enforcement. Can you explain why you want to include corporations in the progressive class warfare agenda when taxing corporations isn't the same as taxing the rich in that it's the same as taxing everyone and it falls hard on the poor and middle class

Please DON'T feed the trolls... ;o)

Kirk, it is as Willie Sutton said, "Because that is where the money is."

Kirk:

One last time. The fact that the lottery raises revenues that accrue to the state does not make it a tax.

To follow your line of "reasoning" a burro is a truck because it carries freight. A bird is an airplane because it flies, and a pile of crap is a rose because it has an odor.

Congratulations, David Walker, you've got him figured out...and for funniest line of the day!

Kirk, are you a child? Try illegal tax shelters in Google and see what you come up with.

Feisty and john b--trolls? You find ignorance funny John B? That's sad? When faced with factual debate and critical thinking and debate-not you feisty as you don't have that skill set-you personally attack. What's interesting here is that I actually agree with you in that cans proposal is bad but when I correct your factual mischaracterizations or politicizing facts for your own ideology you can't even debate in good faith. It tells a lot about both of you. When faced with ideas, facts and experience that doesn't fit your preconceived notions and prepackaged opinions you start flopping around like fish out of water. Must be a miserable world you guys live in waiting for someone else to carry you on their backs for you.

In fact I have never had anyone debate me or dispute the lottery regressive tax view before.

OK, I will. Lotteries are totally voluntary, unlike taxes, anyone can easily opt out by simply not playing. Nor are lotteries associated with necessary purchases the way gasoline taxes and other sales taxes are. Moreover, anyone that does choose to "play the lottery" can choose how much to pay, up to the limits of their wallet. Tax rates are NOT self-selected!

Now, if you want to argue that lotteries are a bad idea, that they produce little of value for the high cost, that they harm those with gambling addictions, they cause financial problems, that they could increase crime, that the poor have a disproportionate number of gambling addicts - well, that's a whole 'nother argument, one I might actually agree with you on.

Cm, sin taxes on cigarettes and alcohol are total voluntary costs on items that are not necessary so are permit fees, excise taxes on cell phones, etc. I understand what you guys are saying and if David was less idealogical in his lectures and want to have a real discussion we could compromise on this issue but he goes off on these tangents to personallynattack when he doesn't like the direction of the conversation. The bottom line is that in substance lotteries are a tax imposed on those people who want to gamble no different than the gaming tax in Illinois that directs 50 percent of the wins from slots and table games to the state. So when a person puts a dollar in a slot and half of the loss goes to the state, that's a voluntary gaming action that is taxed non different than 50 percent of every lottery dollar is kept by the state. All economists and politicians in the state equate the two as taxes so it's unclear to me why this is even a debate

Actually Kirk, it's your grasping at ridiculous arguments to justify your unreasonable positions that I have a problem with. For example, making an unsupported statement that most lottery players are poor followed by an enormous leap to the conclusion that sales taxes aren't regressive.

Let me run down the reasons this is a silly position;

1) You've not shown that the poor play the lottery in particularly large numbers. Maybe it's true, but this is just part of your pattern of making unsupported statements as fact and expecting as an anonymous participant on a message board to be taken at face value.

2) The lottery and sales taxes are different things. David Walker's statement couldn't be more on target. A lottery isn't a tax and a burro isn't a truck.

3) This exposes your normal tactic of crying foul when someone points out your logical fallacies.

4) You have in no way demonstrated that sales taxes aren't regressive. On the contrary, sales taxes are the most commonly cited example of a classically regressive tax. http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/regressivetax.asp#axzz1acQyiCUR

What's sad is your continual efforts to spread ignorance here while claiming to spread enlightenment.

John B, did you read all my posts and thendiscussion with David? I never said that sales taxes were not regressive in fact quite the opposite. I disputed davidson claim that they were the worst form ofnregressive tax? I said the lottery was. Cigarette taxes, gas taxes, alcohol taxes and telecommunications excise taxes are even more regressive taxes worse than sales taxes. Yes a lottery is a tax sorry but it is. Look up sun times article from a month ago in which the whole premise was thatnit was the worst form of regressive tax because based on their research, the Illinois zip codes with the highest lottery revenue was the poorest zip codes in the state. Sorry John but you are wrong on this one and what is strange about this debate is that we are actually on the same side and you guys can't being yourselves to agree with a fiscal conservative.

By the way what ridiculous argument? In your opinion ridiculous? Your humble probably inexperienced opinion on these issues? Is it hard to come to grips that someone might have experience that doesn't jive with your preconceived biased opinions?

Kirk, I didn't say the poor don't play the lottery more than others. In fact I don't know whether that's the case or not. What I did say is you habitually make what you claim to be factual statements without any support. You do it every day. I no longer expect you to recognize your logical fallacies. In fact by now I believe they are a strategy to turn unreasonable, radical Conservative propositions like 9-9-9 into things that are thought to be reasonable.

Again you didn't read the posts because I never said cans proposal was reasonable and I don't like it. My original post to David was basically if you want to be taken seriously on critiquing his proposal lose the idealogical politicized rhetoric and critique it's merits. He was wrong on some of his so called factual statements because he wants to make it about the GOP and class warfare. I said no different than the unfair mischaracterizations of obamacare by right wing idealogues he was falling into the same trap. Cans proposal might be not a goodmone but you have to give him credit for attacking the issue and raising the issue. Why not use his proposal as a springboard for tax reform etc. I never attack obamacare based on politics or right wing rhetoric and i give Obama credit for initiating the discussion. I attack it based on specific financial aspects of it's omission or commission. That a what I asked David to do.

Kirk and David - no reason to fight over semantics -

Most people allow ideology to cloud their reasoning. The fact that a poor person might pay 2 per cent (or 8 or 10 percent) of their income is irrelevant if that person doesn't have enough to eat or decent health care. The people that trot out the numbers are more engaged with numbers than reality - a common problem with ideologues as statistics can be used to prove anything (in at least 83 per cent of all issues.)

Wow.......Cain makes the top of the list and it looks like a lot of peole here are worried........about his potential success at becoming the next POTUS!

IReckon: Read my post towards the end of these discussions. The man isn't electable. It won't happen. He won't be "near the top of the list" within two weeks.

I'd love to see a reasonable, electable GOP contender. Palin, Trump, Bachmann, and the Pizza Guy feel like we are all watching an SNL skit. Romney being a Mormon means anything with a pulse will continue to come ahead of him in the polls.

Actually Kirk, it's your grasping at ridiculous arguments to justify your unreasonable positions that I have a problem with. For example, making an unsupported statement that most lottery players are poor followed by an enormous leap to the conclusion that sales taxes aren't regressive.

What do you expect from a conserviTroll?

Good one NoTea--boy you got me there with your wit and intellect.

Herman Cain's 9-9-9 plan only means he needs donors. He is trying to 'buy' a donor base by promising to lower their taxes. That is the way Cain 'fixed' Godfather's Pizza - with an ax. Basically Cain gutted Godfather's while Pillsbury owned it and then set himself up to buy what was left.

There is no way Herman Cain can fund a campaign from small donors. So Cain is pandering for cash ...

Hey spanky, I just got a 10 yr, no fee, refi at 3.125%. does that make me smarter than you? putting a 9% national sales tax on what ever your selling won't hurt your buisness, really? so less sales means more cash in your pocket?

Hey KIRK LET ME MAKE IT SIMPLE FOR YOU.I invest and own many things in corporate america and you are just another person who likes to use your ruse as a weapon not a tool. Taxing people who don't have it to begin with is just crap. The country is in hard time to the point that the middle class is being all but bled out. The (9 , 9 , 9,)Is a break for corporate america . AGAIN. The simple fact is that sales tax can keep a family from buying many thing . FACT> The wages do match the times. If you take more from people that don't have it they can't spend it! I for on think it is a sad idea of spin how to help corporate greed continue. The loopholes don't add up to the money needed to support the bill. It is that simple. It is basic economics. Argue all you want as you try to sound smart and above but you are not .YOU ARE DEAD WRONG! No CEO .PRESIDENT OF A MAJOR CORPORATION SHOULD BE PRESIDENT. I do more business and investment then you blow smoke up peoples asses in a given year. There is no reason that Me or anyone else in the 1 percent should not pay our fair share. When you lie like this to people or do not work in the sectors they talk of you have no real clue how things work. YOU ARE JUST TALKING FROM YOUR NECK. No amount of spin is going to make it true. Also history shows that the way forward is to raise taxes on the rich and rework the common tax codes. You need a lesson in economics and if you went to school for it the go back and try again. Until you get the tax breaks I get and see just how much people like me get to write off you are just talking. SIMPLE ENOUGH FOR YOU? CANT WAIT TO HEAR THIS ONE !IM SURE YOU THINK YOU KNOW BETTER. I AM THE ONE PERCENT TAX ME! Speaking too people in terms they are not familiar with only makes you look pompous and out of touch.

IF,,,, this lackey of the "Federal Reserve" Herman Cain is nominated by the desperate and ignorant republican party,,, it will most assuredly result in a second term for Obama. (Something we can not afford.)

With the lack of credibility of ANY of the republican candidates , (the possible exception being Ron Paul),,,,,

,,,,we would be served equally well by writing in Carrot Top or Gilbert Godfried!!!!!

Mine - what is yoru fair share. Say you make $1,000,000 per year. How much should you be paying in taxes to the federal government? You indicate that neither you nor anyone else in that top 1% should avoid paying your fair share. So, you need to first define what a fair share is and then tell us all what you are doing not to ensure you are not avoiding taxes and paying that fair share.

I make more then I need.I write down way more then you. I need to only tell you that if I made 5million a year and only paid 84,000 total taxes you got beat with the stick and I got away with murder. Is that simple enough for you! Does that it put it into perspective .LOL

Trust me Rickster Mine isnt in the 1 percent. Somebody making that kind of money doesnt write like a middle schooler and I only see CAPS used like that from people younger than college age. If he really did that type of investment he would have understood what I wrote which he clearly didnt. He clearly doesnt even understand what a write off is or how basic financial behavior really works. They keep lecturing me on how wrong I am and how I dont get it but they cant even provide one example. Thats all I ask for. I asked any one of the progressives to provide me with a write off thats not a cost of doing business or a tax shelter being used by corporations or businesses today that isnt a real economic cost of the business. So far not a single response. I also asked why they want to tax corporations when taxing corporations is the same as taxing the poor and middle class more than a national sales tax would be. I have asked this question on multiple occasions and so far I cant get one response.

Mine--If you know better than me then you should be able to provide me real life examples and discuss it with more intelligence than you did in that post. So have had it, explain to me how the tax system works and provide me with clear examples of the corporate abuse ok? Explain how taxing the rich even more than they are today (they already pay as you just indicated all the revenue the government gets) will stimulate the economy and provide jobs. If you are really one of those 1 percenters, provide me exactly how you got there with government handouts versus doing it on your own.

Hey Kirk you need To go back to school because no matter what you think you know there is always a write off.

Please give me one then. If you know what you are talking about give me one. Is payroll a write off? Is rent expense for a business? What about the cost of the goods or inventory that are used in selling or manufacturing? Your supposed to be the grand intelligent wizard, give me one write off thats not a legitimate cost of doing business when calculating taxable profit.

Kirk If you need a job that pays let me know. Oh look the only thing Kirk has is his arrogance and need to be right and correct others when they are above them.

Mine, you definitely didnt make 5 million in compensation or profit and pay $84, 000 in tax. My guess is that even if you were speaking in your realm of reality, its possible to have $5 million in revenue and then have $5 million in expense and have very little profit to pay tax on. But your example is impossible.

Mine, so in other words you cant answer and you are just blowing smoke then right? If I am right its not arrogance. Like Kid Rock says "Some say I am cocky but it aint bragging motherf*&ker if you can back it up." By the way how is it arrogance and how am I correcting others when I ask you to provide and example when you make outrageous ill informed claims? You could make me look bad right now--all it would take is a critically thought out simple answer to my questions? Obviously you cant which means your a fraud

Mine:

WHAT IS YOUR FAIR SHARE? Please answer this question. I'll even make it simple for you: how many cents out of every dollar should go to the federal government via income taxes?

WHY DO YOU DEDUCT IF YOU ARE NOT PAYING YOUR FAIR SHARE? Why "write down" if you have more than you need. Claim fewer deductions so you can pay more taxes.

Kirk: At the risk of alienating myself from my democratic friends I have to say with regards to your singular point that lotteries are the most regressive form of tax I have to agree, although a choice it is consistent factually that the poor spend more on lotteries trying to get into that elite 2% I imagine.
So I may disagree with you on many issues however on this one I have to agree.

Sorry Feisty.

• If you need to a lot of money in equipment to start or expand a business and don't want to wait for these items to slowly depreciate in value so as to reduce your corporation's taxable income, you should be aware that Section 179 of the Internal Revenue Code allows a corporation to effectively declare 100 percent depreciation in the first year for qualifying property. This property must have been bought (i.e., it cannot have been donated or acquired in a Section 1031 exchange), and it must be used for business purposes. Examples of such qualifying property include machinery, equipment and livestock. Examples of ineligible property include leased equipment, property used in foreign countries and air conditioning . Related driving, including fuel expenses and vehicle wear and tear. You are allowed to choose between two methods--the actual expense method, and the standard deduction .A corporation may deduct up to 10 percent of its taxable income for contributions made to qualifying charitable organizations. Deductions made to individuals, for examples, or to political candidates do not qualify, and no deductions are allowed for the value of time or services provided……...A corporation may defer capital gains tax on the sale of certain real and personal property indefinitely by simply exchanging it for another property that the IRS deems to be "like-kind" (it need not be of like value). IRS rules on "like kind" are quite liberal when it comes to the exchange of real estate, and somewhat stricter when it comes to personal property. Intangible property (such as financial instruments) generally cannot be exchanged under Section 1031. A deferred exchange is even possible (a sale followed by a later purchase) as long as certain deadlines are met and the exchange takes place within a single tax year.AND AH YES THE BEST FOR LAST save taxes is to apply to the IRS for treatment under SUBCHAPTER S of the Internal Revenue Code. Certain requirements apply, such as the type and number of shareholders, the nationality of the shareholders, the type of shares issued, and the type of business engaged in by the corporation. Once classified as an "S corporation," the corporation is 100 percent exempt from most forms of federal tax, and from many state taxes as well. This provision was designed to shield certain corporations from the double taxation of paying taxes at the corporate level, and then again when corporate revenue is distributed to individual shareholders and employees.

As for small business dual use is not write off If you have a home based biz you can not write off thing that overlap in use. Example you can't write off a computer you use for personal and and work related use.

I don't do taxes but I know enough from starting from nothing and building what I have there are to many things to get away with. Your smart I bet you could do my job. I bet not. Not even close. Answer me is a company worth investing in I its debt out weighs it earnings? Give me reasons why or why not.

THESE AE THE WRITE OFFS THAT MATTER TO CORPORATION IDIOT.

Your a tax reform lawyer and you think FLAT is good. That in itself says volumes.

Those arent write offs--those are cash business expenses that are real. Those are legitimate cash expenses that offset revenue and shouldnt be taxed. Your not getting away with anything. Legitimate business expenses that reduce your revenue are not writeoffs. I dont believe you have a business because if you did you wouldnt want to pay tax on gross revenue.

Why won't you answer the question, Mine - What is your fair share if you are "rich"? Is it $0.20 out of every dollar, $0.30 out of every dollar, $0.40 out of every dollar? You are avoiding the question.

As I said I am not a tax lawyer but as I will show to make a point to you that you are not a brain I will post Exactly how much of a difference come tax time I get off and you don't. And they are tax right offs and it doesn't change the simple fact that I pay less then you a how that Cains 999 is crap or that it will help me in the long run. Oh and did you not see what I paid when I posted I made over 5million in profit last years cold hard fact I paid somewhere in the neiborhood of 84000 in taxes not nearly what i would have paid if I were you.Doenst change the fact of how things really work in the real world not some fantasy world were KIRK lives. I still make more and pay less. I have been investing and buying companies for the last 18 years and make more then I need and pay less. The 999 tax code will only benefit me. Companies only take the money they make to buy technology that does the job more efficient then humans then takes the employe out of the picture ships the job to a place like china and pays even less to further produce profit. So Mister tax man can you argue that. Please I would love for you to jump in my pool . I would love for you to answer the question posed to you.Just because you sort out people like me and what they can write off does not in fact make you a touristy on what businesses get away with and cheat on. If you are a cap then you are in fact the guy that helps business thieve from little america. Like it or not I am the one percent. I don't care what you think of that. I will never worry a day again were my mouth is getting food from. I still think that I and most of the people I know in the 1 percent get a better deal. Write it in my favor it will only further the point. American corporation does not work on simple tax code it works on what the politicians do in our favor. More profit for less work = less taxes and that is the problem smart guy.Less tax = less revenue =less jobs =less debt pay down. Hows that for money smarts . That is economics not taxes. No revenue = no jobs. The reality is no corporation has you in mind exempt for you to make them bigger and more wealthy. You are still talking from the side of your neck. The fact is that you should not misguide people thinking that you know how things really work you are simply a tool for the money. Does not change the fact that in 99.9 percent of recession when the rich are taxed the recession or depression ends. Jobs are created and economic boom follows. When austerity is implemented in time of recession or depression jobs are lost and recession and depressions resume. The country is a business like it or not. If you pay in you shouldn't get screwed.

IF A COMPANY THAT HAS MORE DEBT THEN ERNING WORTH BUYING? YOUR A TAX GUY IS IT ?

Oh and I would pay 60 cents of every dollar and consider it my fair share. IDIOTS. I make money by the fist full and didn't get caught with may ass in the wind like most because the writing was on the wall from way back.I continue to make money hand over fist. If you didn't see it you weren't paying attention.Micro macro all the B.S. is for you to be kept of point. If america required that is saw all money made it wouldn't have these issues at all.

OH AND ONE LAST THIN KERT . who do you work for because I am sure it is not one of the big 5. That is evident in your simplification of how things work.

Re: David Walker @1.11;

Mr. Walker -I would recommend that you take a moment and put down whatever is clouding your ability to comprehend the truth of the matter.

I cannot believe you would state something so crass, so brazenly un-American like this in your post 1.11:

"Meantime, the rich are seeing their taxes drop enormously. The current 15% tax rate on capital gains drops to 9%. Folks, most of us will never even see capital gains."

How dare you suggest that Cain--a good, upstanding Republican with deep right-wing convictions while maintaining an even deeper melatonin hue--would continue the oppressive policy of taxing the Wall Street job-makers when they hustle a few billion to keep their private staff employed!

Oh, the humanity of leveling such a charge! How dare you?!? You have no heart. Millionaires and billionaires everywhere recoil in horror from your treasonous charge!

The article clearly states, regarding Cain's 9-9-9 plan: "It eliminates the capital-gains tax, which benefits those who make money in the stock market."

Uncle Tom Cain would never leave his Wall Street brothers out in the cold the way you have suggested. His 9-9-9 plan actually comes from "@!$%# the other 99.9%." Get it? 9-9-9, 99.9%...?

I demand that you retract your filth and immediately post an apology, or Faux News will have no choice but to recommend that every Wall Streeter cut back by firing at least two, minimum-wage staff members.

The rich, gay-hating, all-white, oil-polluting baby Jesus cries every time you post!

The only good flat tax is a 0% tax...Ron Paul 2012.

Don't tax the poor and middle class more because they aren't taxed at all or less now than the rich...all that means is that we're part way to the better goal of taxing no one!

This country ran until 1913 without an income tax (except for a short unConstitutional one during the Civil War that was overturned - as was Lincoln's drafting of soldiers which was another first in American history - after Lincoln's death)...it can run again without an income tax. Look it up, your roads are funded by gas tax (a user fee basically), your schools are funded by property tax over 95%, and the list goes on and on. Income tax funds endless war, endless bereaucracy, and debt payments to the national debt the former two create...it doesn't fund much else we think of as essential government services. It certainly doesn't fund police, firemen, teachers etc.

Mine - I hope you see this. Thank you for answering the question.

If you do believe you should be paying more taxes (60% of your earnings federally), by all means avoid taking those write-offs you are taking. That will easily increase your tax burden as you desire.

Nah, I'm waiting for the Krugman, except I hear he's hanging with the OWS gang.

That guy is super smart.

and Tall.

OWS Obama's World Sucks!

Jenasus

Herman Cain is just another Republican that is bringing stupid economic ideas that are too dumb down for those that refuse to accept the economic reality of the country.

If we are to us his 9-9-9 dumb tax rule, that means that the billionares and all the people that make megabucks, just like the oil corporations, will have it made.

They will pay the SAME tax than you and me...Pretty pathetic, cosidering that they made BILLIONS and i just live from paycheck to paycheck...Go back to selling pizzas Cain...However, I doubt that you will get your job back with those moronic ideas about money.

Rather amazing that the 'business friendly' Republicans really don't know how the economy works. More corporate welfare!!!!

The financial wizards in the House still have not figured out that cutting government spending lowers GDP ...

The latest looney idea from the repubs, 9-9-9 is just the same as the others privatising Social Security, remove banking regulations, remove business regulations, decrease tax rates. How many failed nonsensical and unpassable ideas can we afford.

It's amazing how Cain, Obama, and every other Repub and Dem missed the economic collapse...except Ron Paul that is. He predicted it in sick detail 6 years before it happened on the House floor (September 2002).

Robert, keep in mind that in 2008 elections, corporations have to the democrats over 80 percent of the campaign donations. You can not say with a straight face that the corporations are for the GOP or the other way around. Also, keep in mind that if you raise the taxes on the less fortunate by one cent, it is raising their taxes. 47% of americans pay zero in federal income tax.

of course I would never say the corporations favor either party, their contributions are public and it is apparent that like GE, they contribute to both just like Goldman Sachs and most others, they have to cover all of their bets. as far as the 47% that do not pay federal taxes, you are right but if they work they do pay SS, Medicare, and sales tax. That 47% includes single mom's (or dad's), kids that work part time while in school, and people that simply do not make enough money to pay taxes. They do not avoid paying like the corporations and companies do through loopholes, they do it because of the tax laws.

Corporations will always give contributions to both parties. and will always give more to the party that consensus says will ultimately win.

Of course not Torpedo - it's the poor peole that create jobs.

Oh and the government, which of course has no wealth of it's own, so has to take it from...the poor people.

And from this point forward "rich" is defined as anyone in the 53% actually paying taxes.

A challenge spanky... can you name one person over the age of 18 that pays no taxes.

Federal and state taxes - sure, plenty, including all the illegals.

Sales tax, of course not.

All I know is I get to pay 'em all. I'd like to not pay so much, you know cause the gov. wastes 1/2 of every dollar it gets.

Then let's be a bit more accurate in our postings. Not everyone is as intelligent as you and may actually believe the BS you spew.

They just took the last 10 years off from the job creation, Torpedo---they'll get back to it any time now.

Well Spank it depends on what the meaning of "tax" is now doesn't it? Be specific! What tax is too high and what taxes does the government waste? How much and more importantly how much proportionately for each taxpayer does the gubment waste? Comon now you can do it!

Comon Spank tell us how the wealthy create jobs? And here I thought it was demand. You know like when all those Gi's came back from WW2 and were handed the GI Bill (Welfare doncha know). They went to school and became physicians and engineers, etc and actually made stuff and created demand for more stuff. Tell Spanky please!

Well.

I don't cut my own grass.

And I'm thinking of giving up driving.

Someone to watch my kids for me (cuz, yanno, I don't want to actually -raise- people, just show them off when it suits me)

Someone to clean my house and cook my food.

That's like 4 jobs right there, right?

/Sarcasm

Yup Teknishan, Those are all minimum wage jobs. You know like agricultural worker, slaughter house worker. Ya know the jobs that illegals are doing that most Americans won't do. Reference what is going on in Alabameee..So tell me, if as a country we have nothing but minimum wages jobs. Then what?

/Sarcasm returned

Easy Torpedo - all taxes are too high.

The government wastes 1/2 of every penny it gets, so that'd be 1/2 of whatever you toss it's way.

Business owners, supplying a demand, create jobs. Not the government which is solely in the re-allocation business.

See, the gov can "create" a job, but the second the funding goes away, so too does the job. It's got no wealth of its own, unlike you, me and teknishan.

Hey Tek - you say you line in San Diego? man, I am totally going to La haina's for lunch tomorrow.

[Not everyone is as intelligent as you....]

Wait...what?

lol...you give Spanky waaaaay too much credit...

"The government wastes 1/2 of every penny it gets, so that'd be 1/2 of whatever you toss it's way".

And like spank how do you know that? Citation please!

Actually the government should be in the "level playing field business." Ya know that basic fairness thingy. Or are you a 19th century person living in the 21st?

Nope Topedo, that's not the government's job.

Or maybe you can show us where it is enumerated in the Constitution?

I know the waste figures because that is the figure the government uses. GAO.

So Spanky, when the government builds/repairs that bridge that allows you to move your product to market or your employees to get to work, that is OK and not waste. When they want to fix your competitors bridge, that is waste. I get it. 50 (you) / 50 (competitor). Half really is waste.

ir, please read. But, I wonder if liberal minds can comprehend.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Nearly-half-of-US-households-apf-1105567323.html?x=0&.v=1

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/business/economy/14leonhardt.html

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/jul/08/john-cornyn/john-cornyn-says-51-percent-american-households-pa/

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36226444/ns/business-personal_finance/t/half-us-pays-no-federal-income-tax/

I can certainly name several who pay zero in income taxes, but would never put their names on a website. Reality stinks. I can give you a lot more news stories saying the same thing. When liberals whine about cutting taxes for the rich, they fail to mention, do not mention, or are just ignorant enough to realize that you can not cut taxes on people who do not pay taxes.

Mark, I believe you only read what you want to believe. Spanky said no taxes. It may be true they pay no income taxes, but that is not what he said. Some of the articles you quote above point this out, but I guess your rose colored glasses filtered that out. Try to figure out what a family of 4 making 50,000 a year has left. The rich did and knew they were all ready getting everything they had so it was senseless to ask for more. The failed logic of your argument is not realizing that the working poor that pay no taxes did not set their tax rate. The rich people that live in mansions did that.

If someone does not own a vehicle and uses public transportation, are they paying taxes for the already subsidized transportation? The point is that often the lower classes still don't pay the same in sales and other taxes either since they don't purchace as many goods or rent (they don't pay direct property taxes) or use more public transportation.

SPANKY. In america corporation down size there business and use new technologies to further reduce cost of labor.They then take that very business over seas to place like china so they can further reduce the cost and pay less people to do more work. That intern takes jobs from america and further reduces there tax burden on themselves and does nothing for the country. What you say is false in it entirety . This is not the days of good old america when the people in this country where payed to do a job and do it well. This is the days of global trade and less work for no money. You are not so bright . For that fact you talk like KREG up there from the side of your neck. I am a corporate investor and I assure you that this is how things work. AMERICA needs jobs for the people not for china . The republican party are the biggest scam there is in this country. More got done when the DEMS were in office then at all the entire time the republican tea party has done too date. Stop thinking there isn't someone in the room that works where you claim to no so much about. You lie and spin and are no different then the people that aloud this to go on. I think it is high time people like myself who make 10 times what you make in a life time pay our fair share. It is in fact the constant deregulation of banking practice and red line loans that caused this . GUESS WHO WROTE THAT INTO BILL AND MADE IT LAW……… THE REPUBLICANS OVER THE LAST 35 YEARS. There is no arguing the truth. Oh and no taxes only goes for those who make below a certain income . There are many out there who pay little or no taxes. That in itself should tell you just how bad the jobs picture is. That should tell your that the sit and do nothing politics of the RIGHT WING TEA FREAKS does not work.We should have say . We should be able to give opinions. The laws should be left to those who believe in what the country was founded on. For the people by the people. It should be a fair playground. NO ONE SHOULD SUFFER FROM GREED AND POLITICS. WE ARE THE REASON THEY HAVE JOBS. All the focus on the president and the dems . did we forget that the right got us in this mess with 35 years of lies and greed. Did we forget that austerity only looses jobs and create more gaps in the middle and poor class?Did we forget that the republicans have done not one thing that would create jobs and foster growth? Did we forget that the very reason that this was aloud to go on for so long is because when the republicans are in office they refuse to see the deficit growing and pump more money into the DOD and ignore social programs that we pay for and they say should be done away with? There are so many more simple facts that I could go on with. Blaming the president for congresses inaction is a joke. It is like smacking a child in front of a thousand people and saying its not true I didn't do that.If we as people care about this country it is up to us to remove the people on the right that will not vote on anything. It is up to us to remove the very people that are batting for one side but and not the other . We need fair minded people in office not extremes. THIS IS AMERICA! IF YOU WANT EXTREMES MOVE TO THE MIDDLE EAST AND STAY! IF YOU LIKE TO BE LIED TOO AND TOLD WHAT TO DO IT IS THE PLACE FOR YOU!

Simple plan and simply for the rich - as usual. This shouldn't be a shock to anyone. All the republicans want to do is continue GWB policies and we just end up in the same spot. Nobody is addressing the real issue - the economy is fundamentally broken. When manufacturing is less than 10% of the national GDP the middle class erodes. When that percentage was 20-25% we prospered as a whole. We need to build private and public sector alliances, that is how Germany fixed their economy after the fall of the Soviet Union, but we're too damn arrogant to try to implement another country's ideas - we'd rather wallow in our own stupidity and corporate political system.

What unnecessary hardship. That the poor might actually have to pay something? A flat tax would make people like prostitutes, drug dealers, or the in to paying taxes that do not pay now.

Stupid is as stupid does. Lets make those who cant afford to put food on the table pay a whole bunch more taxes so the wealthy can have even more than they do now. Only in this backwards country would such stupidity be tolerated.

Why are you people so concerned about the "poor" paying taxes? These people lead miserable lives - leave them alone already. Do you really think the majority of people "strive" to be poor and to be on government handouts? There are a few lazy people sure..however I would venture to say most poor people would rather become rich.

I have zero problem paying a little more in taxes so I don't have to see poor people dying in the streets, or worse committing more crimes as they can't feed their families. I have no desire to live in a country like South Africa. Crazy teabaggers always focus on the few poor people who "beat the system" to get more handouts. That is always going to happen and has very little effect on your everyday life. However the rich who "beat the system" to circumvent paying taxes and stealing from the poor - that has a very real effect on your every day life. Example...

CEO X runs company X into the ground - all the workers get laid off, their 401K's go to zero or are diminished greatly. The CEO walks away with a 500 million golden parachute. He just literally stole money from the middle class and poor - that my friends is redistribution of wealth. I would love to see the teabaggers complain about this. Stop harping on poor people - they are miserable enough....

And to complete my rant...another thing that drives me crazy about the complete hypocrisy of "Conservatives and teabaggers". Most of them claim to be "True Christians" - "We live by family value etc...(Don't even get me started on the religious right - I am just making a point of their hypocrisy here).

Really? If you were "True Christians" didn't your prophet Christ teach to take care of the poor and to not judge and treat people equally? In the Teabaggers world, all poor people should be thrown into the street, apparently a person dying because they can't afford health care gets cheered by "Christians". Gay people should not have equal rights as everyone else (even though they vote and pay taxes like you and me...?? go figure that one out). A gay serviceman even gets booed by "True Christians" Here's a guy who is fighting to protect your lazy a$$ and you boo him because he happened to be born gay....nice people. You all sound like "True Christians" to me.

Is this hyprocrisy not glaring to any invidivual with a shred of intelligence? How can you even argue against this? Take your "fake Jesus agenda" elsewhere and good luck "praying for rain". Idiots.....

yeah bs406, yeah. Someone with common sense. Oh oh can't have that here

bs406 - nice try. The prophet Christ did not say to take money from someone else to give to the poor. You are to do that for yourself out of the goodness of your heart - "not letting your left hand know what the right hand is doing".

heres to the golden boy. A MITT Quiz

http://www.democrats.org/which-mitt?source=20111010_BW_Mittquiz_nd

Pat,

Remember Alvin Green (D) from 2008, running...against Jim DeMint? Never could figure that one out, or where he came from!

...same with Pizza Man although he has some creds, there is still just something about his whole campaign that just isn't on the up and up!...Plant!

Just for starters, where is the Mrs Pizza Man!...

The other front runners parade around with their spouses.

Low-information voters love sound bites that fit on a bumper sticker. That's why the 9-9-9 stupidity is so popular with them. (Pay attention to this Romney, your plan is more than three pages!) These simpletons aren't asking Cain to reveal his "anonymous" economic advisers who helped come up with this craziness. Bloomberg and other experts have debunked this nonsense, yet Cain claims to know more than they do.

Gawd save us from the anti-intellectualism conservatives. Hey, maybe we can start a chain Email to debunk this--just put "God Bless America" at the end and they'll never know the difference.

So TruePatriot - I suppose you would have to include Ben Nelson, Tester,Manchin and the rest of them mean old Senate Dems in the "low information voter" group, right?

Well at least Obama is an intellectual.

So we are saved!

Oh, wait. Ok, but he does have Geitner, Frank and Schumer on his team, and they have huge brains, right?

How is Frannie and freddie doing these days? Products of low information voters?

Cain can surge all he wants, the GOP will never nominate a black man, unless Eric Cantor falls asleep in a tanning booth...

Spanky

The myths abound. Just because Ben Nelson is a democrat doesn't mean he's rational. By the way, the dems don't goose step in unison like the republicans. They never have. I'm sure you've heard that famous line by Wliey Post's friend. (yes I'm being intentionally obscure)

Not only is there nothing wrong with Geithner Frank and Schumer, thery are VERY intelligent and are doing the right things that just may save our butts, if the republicans can get their heads on straight. But no hope there. Look at the front runner and a tax plan that is.....idiotic! Michelle Bachmann had this one right.

Also, listen.....Freddie and Fanny did NOT cause this recession. It was the banks abusing the system... Got that?

But you are entertaining. Even I waste my time reading you and responding!

Robert, how many flip flops and lies has obama fed us?

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/50lies.asp

http://frontpagemag.com/2010/01/21/lies-of-obama/

http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/fashion-shows/

Not to mention that at some point, your illustrious president will be implicated in the fast and furious scheme, which helped take a life of an american citizen.

Yeah, his pizzas will be the only food you can afford...

And only a cheese pizza at that - extra toppings would cost too much.

Paul M, can you do that math for me? Your currently paying 7.65% in payroll taxes and even if you were paying zero federal income taxes, I wouldnt consider 1.45% to be a pretty significant increase before factoring in the increased sales tax. I understand why people dont like the national sales tax, but the 9% income tax is going to be a big tax cut for virtually everyone unless you dont pay any federal income tax or get welfare from the earned income tax refundable credit. Its the national sales tax thats I dont like for alot of reasons and not for class warfare reasons.

I live in oregon and we are a independent state. Sale tax is non existing here and because of it there are people who make less are getting by unlike the rest of the country with high sales tax. How about what they call a death tax. Tax all the things that drive up medical cost ( cigarettes alcohol so on)and use that money to support the failing system there by fixing a problem and making people pay for what there poison is. It makes more sense then a flat tax. You view this as the answer but it simply isn't. The problem is lack of revenue in its whole. The lack of structure in the manner in what the money is used for. If we tax what hurts the system and use it to pay for exactly what it hurts or takes from then you have no short fall and there for solve the problem. Tax lawyers are just as much thieves as the politicians just ask mine. I will right off nothing this year and post to make a point that I intact pay ten times less then my fair share. I will use a comparison of last years to prove the point. It will be published all over the internet to make the very valid truth stand. The right wing and all the people who follow need to stop the ideology and come to the truth that we as a nation get the short end of the stick. Give them the politicians that write the laws for wall-street what they deserve . A short ride to the unemployment line.RIGHT WING AND TEA PARTY NEED TO PAY FOR DOING NOTHING AND PLAYING POLITICS.

"Chilled, I had the same thought about Cain"

@NorthstarDFL

...and this guy is some kind of Associate Pastor of a Baptist Church in Atlanta. How in the world did his campaign get started....

All we ever hear is that he is out of money, but he manages to keep going with his secret advisors....I guess the money source is a secret also.

Plant!

i am sure you are middle class. your taxes are paid by some one else. do you get the so called earned income tax credit? if you do. where do you think that money comes from? the people above you who make more so they pay more taxes. those are the people that pay your taxes and you still get extra money! that is the 48% who dont pay taxes they are talking about! its very simple. you have been hoodwinked by that credit as most americans are. you still pay taxes its only some one else who pays it for you. why do you think we have a 15 trillion dollar debt it is all a pyramid its a scam.

On Wolf Blitzer 2 or three weeks ago he was stating the cost of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars @ and this is not a quote because it was either 3 Billion a day or 3 Billion a week either way you can see that this is a huge expense to the American people. Ending these wars, closing some European military bases would put a rather large dent in the deficit. This is not the fault of the low or middle class and does not benefit them at all.

How do you end up paying 28% living on soc sec? That doesn't seem possible.

"do you think its fair that 40-50% of the people dont pay federal income tax?"

Who are those people who don't pay? What calculations are used to arrive at that 40-50%?? Is my 3 year old granddaughter included? How about my 97 year old aunt -- do we count her? Conservatives just love throwing that number around. What it shows is figures don't lie but liars figure.

It includes people who file tax returns so no it does not include those people. The article above in which this blog is based on used those statistics don't blame

It includes the working poor, barely making ends meet, and those working part-time and temporary jobs. They don't make enough to cover the basic deductions.

It also includes some extremely wealthy folks using various loopholes or illegal methods to evade taxes.

(but I really suspect the right-wing pundits included those earning no income at all to reach their highly suspicious "47%" figure.)

cM, look it up on IRS.gov,unless younthink the governmentnis right wing? Who cares if it includes the working poor, that's not the point and who cares if it includes a few bad rich people. What about all the middle class who fail to report cash income from jobs and commit fraud? There are people who commit fraud and don't pay their fair share at all income levels. Do you really think it's just the rich that use illegal tax shelters? My best friend makes at least ten grand a year playing poker and has never claimed it as income. I would bet that tax evasion is bad across the board so get off your high horse

I don't understand why they used the 40% link in the article other than it was the original fact checked lie presented by McCain and the GOP. Of course it has been misconstrued, even now.

Here is why 47% of households owe no federal income tax and why it is still a misleading GOP/TP talking point to claim they pay no taxes. That would be, oh, maybe 60 million registered republicans? ;-)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/14/business/economy/14leonhardt.html

you might care to read this living wage calculation, also. http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/

You might want to read this, also.Corporatons that pay little or no tax. Please explore at your leisure

http://payupnow.org/

Why is it misleading? Payroll taxes are your retirement contribution that you will get back remember? What does the living wage calculation have to do with anything? Corps. Who cares again as nobody has answered my question asnto why you guys are so insistent on corporate taxes when that tax hits the poor and middle class.

If you don't make enough money to live how can you pay more? There is a reason those illegal immigrants work those crappy jobs and all live 5 or 6 to a two bedroom apartment. You've stated this atleast 5-6 times about the "fair share" argument. If someone makes 20,000 a year gross income how much is fair? When's the last time you lived in this country making 20,000 a year? Its not about the amount of taxes that is unfair, its the rate at which those taxes are taxed, and you know that. if its a flat tax of 9% don't you think it would hurt the person making 20,000 a hell of a lot worse than the person making 50,000 or 70,000 or a 1 million? And the EIC is not welfare, if the mortgage interest deduction isn't welfare then the EIC is not either. And your claim about the republicans helping out getting rid of all the illegals sure they are, here in georgia they are loosing billions of dollars on spoiled crops, they are even trying a program to have parolees and non violent criminals work in the fields to pay off their debts, thats their bright plan indentured servitude.

Alex, I have lived a good portion of my life as a kid with my family and then first jobs making less than $20,000 but you obviously didnt read my posts. I am not a fan of the Cain proposal so this isnt about them being taxed at 9%. Dont forget that person making $20,000 is already taxed at 7.65% for payroll taxes so the Cain proposal is 1.45% more not 9% but I agree I am not for raising taxes below a certain poverty level. The discussion isnt about raising taxes on the poor as they are never going to pay taxes. Yes the earned income tax credit is welfare because its a refundable credit. The mortgage interest deduction I agree is another form of welfare but it reduces the amount of tax you OWE but you cant get money back from the mortgage deduction that you didnt pay. With the EIC you actually get welfare back or money given to you that you didnt pay in--thats the definition of welfare.

By the way, I never provided any personal view on current illegal immigrants in the country but its disengenous of progressives not to recognize the impact both positively and negatively they have ad economically. You cant just pick and choose. There is no doubt they provide a source of low skilled labor for certain industries that rely on it but they also provide a source of labor in industries that dont need it which depresses wages. It impacts union jobs, manufacturing jobs, the restaurant industry in which teenagers cant even find jobs anymore etc. I never said I was personally for any specific law, I just said you cant ignore the economic impact they bring to the wage scale.

HI KIRK REMEMBER ME THE GUY WHO IS A THIRD GRADER. WELL PROOF YOU TALK FROM YOU NECK. NICE TO REPLY BY THE WAY. You are A CPA RIGHT ? But not for any corporation I assume.If you are you are just a hired consultant. That means you advice the very rich on how to best get around the tax law. If not you are a PAYED PUBLIC ACCOUNTANT So a private firm or the IRS? If you are IRS then you audit people . Why would some one trust your word at all. Just saying. Oh and to add fuel to the fire for your mouth here is a good example of what you don't know. HAVE A NICE DAY.

Now Cain, who has recently surged to the front of the pack of GOP presidential contenders, is drawing attention to a radical idea. Rather than slog through the political morass of overhauling the existing system, just scrap it entirely. No more deductions, exemptions, incentives and tax loss carry forwards

In its place, Cain wants the government to pay its bills with three sources of revenues held to single-digit rates: a 9 percent tax on all consumer purchases, a 9 percent “business” tax and a 9 percent income tax.

Cain claims the plan is already generating popular support among voters, which will make it much easier to implement in the political quagmire that has numerous tax reform proposals.

“I can be walking through the airport going through security and a TSA agent will say, ‘Hello Mr. Cain: 9-9-9,” Cain recently told CNBC. “If the public understands it, they will support it and demand it. That is going to be the difference. It is not a complicated piece of legislation.”

But the odds are much higher that, when the public understands it, the vast majority of taxpayers will be horrified to realize they face a huge tax increase. That assessment comes from Bruce Bartlett, a senior official in the Reagan and George H.W. Bush administrations, who described the plan as a “distributional monstrosity.”

“The poor would pay more while the rich would have their taxes cut, with no guarantee that economic growth will increase and good reason to believe that the budget deficit will increase” Bartlett recently wrote in the New York Times. “Even allowing for the poorly thought through promises routinely made on the campaign trail, Mr. Cain’s tax plan stands out as exceptionally ill conceived.

The reason the plan would hit poor people much harder that the wealthy is also simple. The current tax code provides a series of deductions, credits and exemptions that ease the tax burden on all households, but they have a greater positive impact those at the bottom of the income ladder. As a result, some 38 percent of U.S. households pay little or no income taxes. They would now suddenly be hit with what amounts to a tax bill that represents 27 percent of their income, according to USC law professor Edward Kleinbard, who published a paper this week calling the 9-9-9 plan “a terrific example of fiscal hocus pocus.”

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“It is presented as a low-tax panacea, but it actually would raise the tax bills of many Americans very substantially,” he said.

Though he's gained political momentum by hammering away at the plan's simplicity, Cain has had a harder time explaining how the plan would benefit the average household. In a recent appearance on MSNBC’s The Daily Rundown with Chuck Todd, Cain explained that a family with annual income of $50,000 would come out ahead under the 9-9-9 scheme. Butas my NBC News colleague Domenico Montanaro found upon closer examination, the numbers Cain offered just don't add up.

The plan would certainly benefit some households. Owners of small businesses would be among the biggest winners, said Kleinbard, because they could pay themselves with dividends (which would no longer be taxed) instead of wages. That would effectively reduce their tax rate to about 18 percent.

Kleinbard also found that the plan would have some significant unintended consequences, including what amounts to a phantom tax on existing savings. For example, if you bought a new car with money you’d stashed in a savings account, accumulated from earnings, investment gains or interest or dividends that you’ve already paid taxes on, you’d now have to pay yet another 9 percent on the new car.

That phantom tax, which would apply to any purchase made with existing wealth, “may come as a big surprise to Mr. Cain and his followers.”

Cain and advisors who have reviewed the plan insist that it would collect enough money to replace the current tax code and not add to the federal budget deficit. But until Cain presents a more detailed proposal, those estimates are all but impossible to verify.

you are 100% clueless. you might be senile gramma

stay out of other patients meds in the nursing home

BWAHAHAHAHAHA Sayitlikeyouwi@!$%#was - in this case the article also outlines how the Cain 9-9-9 would give a big reduction to top incomes and produce a larger burden on all others. Sorry you didn't have a chance to read the article either.

Do you have to work hard to be an idiot or does it come naturally?

PSST! Carl! Obviously you didn't read the article, but since you didn't even read the headline: "9-9-9, a 'major tax cut' for the rich, 'substantial' increase on others", one seriously has to wonder about how you derived "fair and still taxes the rich more than you".

Amazing. Not amusing, just amazing. GrammaKnows post something with insight and wisdom, and someone like say it....can only come back with 10 year old insults, but claims that Gramma is senile. It doesn't get any more ridiculous than that. Sayit whomever, turn off mommy and daddy's computer and go do your homework. You seriously need to learn both respect, and anything having to do with this election.

Carl did you forget to read the part where capital gains isn't taxed at all? Soo Buffet would only pay on income that is income not capital gains, hince the capital gains thing.... anyways so ok yea that rich person pays more then me, yes, but umm they make more than me and by simple math would pay more then me, but thats not the point the point is how does paying more affect me, it won't hurt them you know why? cause they can donate their taxes to charity and pay nothing...hmmm I mean who makes a million dollars these day's solely on income? And if your gonna blast people for legally accepting the earned income credit, then blast people for the mortgage interest deduction, for student loan interest and all the other deductions out there, go ahead and blast them for playing by the freaking tax code.

@gramma... why isn't it fair? everyone pays the same exact rate... and yes, 'still taxes the rich more than you'. Using the example, a $100 is taxed at $9, a $100k pays $9000. Therefore in terms of absolute numbers (which is what I believe Carl was referring to), the rich person is paying $8991 MORE dollars than the poor person. Which means most tax dollar funded programs/services are indeed being funded by the rich.

I started off as the child of immigrants who came to this country with nothing...we barely had money for any extras but we managed to squeak by... through a series of some very hard studying, good decision making, workign my butt off and yes, some plain dumb luck, I am now making a decent salary. But I feel as if my tax dollars are going to support a large number of people that don't want to work as hard as I do.

Of course, I do understand that is a generalization and probably a grossly exaggertated steroptype. Still, to hear that a lot of people (we can argue percentages.... but the fact is it's more than 1/4 of the country, some say as much as 50% of the country) doesn't pay/pays very low income taxes???? that's mind boggling to me....

can't you read?? with 999 your payroll tax is eliminated... giving you a lot more money to spend (or save)

if you can't afford something, don't buy it!

PSST! Sayit....apparently YOU can't read. The CURRENT payroll tax is REPLACED with 9% sales tax on everything and a 9% income tax, which is how it ends up costing middle & low income people more of their income while reducing the percentage on the wealthy.

And the problem is that in doing so there WILL BE less that working people can afford which in turn = even less chance of economic recovery.

Corporate taxes ALSO would be reduced to 9%.

Such a shame that a keyboard and access can be in the hands of one so unable to comprehend the written word!

can't you read?? with 999 your payroll tax is eliminated.

Bull. First of all --- you clowns say 50% of the population don't pay ANY federal taxes so they won't gain anything. And -- we still have FICA, state and local taxes withheld.

say it.... Your post is the silliest of the day.

"It is not fair that having children should get you a deduction"

Please, talk to your parents they will explain it to you.

You make me SICK!!!!!!!!!! Go take your stuffy wealth bearing attitude and shove it where the sun doesn't shine northstarDFL. With such an *sswipe of an attitude toward your fellow human beings you stand out in a crowd. Saying that everyone should pay and avoiding the obvious unfairness of the wealthy paying far less under the 999 plan is sheer stupidity.

How utterly stupid. If everyone could be rich that would be a plan, but unfortunately that is not only impossible, but the fact is we no longer live in the america of Henry Ford, where a good idea and hard work made you a success. Those who are born into wealth have a far higher chance of being wealthy and those who are not haven't got a chance. Time for the wealthy to understand their greater burden to care for the less fortunate. Every advanced nation has figured this out except us who are concentrated only on individual rights at the expense of everyone else. Shame on you!!!!!!!!!!

@johnnycakes1

As long as you're going to call people names please add yourself to the list. People born into money most definitely have a greater opportunity, but does that mean nobody else should try? What wealth did the current President come from? Hmm, I wonder how he got there? Hard work and determination maybe? As for your comment that every advanced nation has figured out that the wealthy need to carry a greater burden; to which countries are you referring? Dead broke Greece, Italy, Portugal, Ireland? Soon to be broke England? Or perhaps you refer to France, which is so overrun with poor, uneducated, and unwilling to blend in middle easterners, that they are facing a crisis of gigantic proportions. When and if the US decides it no longer wants to be the police force of the world, and all of these nations have to pay in full for their own defense, how long do you think those great and tremendously successful societies will last?

Time for the wealthy to understand their greater burden to care for the less fortunate.

Well...maybe we don't want to care for you.

You can trust him with your life but only if you can afford the health insurance, otherwise just go die somewhere.

The federal government is the only body that can print money,we do not have the gold standard anymore we only have fiat money,not backed by anything,money is a commidity.

Smaller government only means that we will have less public jobs and less money flowing into the system,the system will eventually dry up.