AND...its an auto loss for Perry.

The Republican party will be better off without the Religious psychos. A return to normal people representing religion as opposed to the idiots will go a long way to helping. Cee Yaa Perry, please take your campaign money and give it away, now.

This is pretty much a bogus issue. If you ask any seminary-trained minister, "Are Mormons technically Christians, yes or no?" He would have to answer, "No." That is a problem with the media which often ask very complex questions and then try to cut the answer down to a simple sound bite.

Technically, ALL Christians accept the Nicene Creed (or some close similar wording) as both a symbol and expression of faith. The Nicene Creed encompasses all that Christians believe, despite religious traditions, and embellishments in the details, it is the Dogma of the Christian Faith. Period.

Mormons do not subscribe to the Nicene Creed. Period. It is NOT part of their beliefs.

The major difference is in the definition of the Christian All-In-One Trinity. The Mormons subscribe to Arianism (not to be confused with the Nazi Aryanism.) The technical definition of Mormonism (CoCoLDS) is Aryanism. As such ("God neither begets, nor is He begotten.") it has much more in common with Islam than Christianity.

Just as "Christians" defines people who adhere to the NIcene Creed, for 1,500 years "Arians" defines people, such as Mormons, who reject the Nicene Creed but still see themselves as worshiping Jesus and respecting His teachings.

Likewise, the term "cult" in current popular usage usually refers to a group whose beliefs or practices are considered abnormal or bizarre. To ask a Christian minister whether he considers Mormonism to be "abnormal" or "bizarre", especially when one considers the abject rejection of the Nicene Creed, certainly beggars the minister to call LDS a "cult." Likewise, Mormons consider the belief in the Christian Trinity as "mis-informed" or "poorly conceived" or any number of other wordings that make it apparent that they consider the Trinity as abnormal or bizarre.

There was a time when Mormons identified themselves as Arians, not Christians. But when WWII came along and the Nazis brought us Aryans, the term dropped from their usage.

Whoever is advising him on this must be a covert Romney staffer.

Just goes to show how badly they want Perry out of the race. He's darned if he does, and darned if he doesn't.

This is just the way Romney sticks the fork in.

As for this article both these candidates seem to cancel each other out on issues. The right of states to enact their own policies and on the question of religion in politics.

A cult member calls a cult member's religion a cult.

Then the cult member wants an apology from the cult member.

These guys could learn something by exploring their common ground.

Oh, well.

I'm off to my 7th OCCUPY GA to help build a cult of social justice with the 'commons'.

Anna Molly's Conservative Playbook -- Chapter 2 (States' Rights)

States always have the right to enact their own policies ... unless I don't like your state's policy, in which case I want the federal government to tell you what the policy should be.

That is, of course, as long as the federal government tells you that your policy should be what I want it to be. If the federal government tells me that mine should be what you want it to be, then I want local control.

On abortion, for example, I want local control. On gun control, I want federal pre-emption of state laws I don't like.

As for religion in politics, it's fine as long as it's my religion. If it's your religion, and you float, you're obviously a heretic and you die. If you don't float, well then ... you're dead.

What's all the fuss about? These rules are pretty simple, really.

Sorry teabaggers the repugnant elites have passed judgement and Mitzy is the ONE. Fall in line or on your swords, baggers.

The right of states to enact their own policies and on the question of religion in politics.

Still living in the days before the Civil War I see. I believe that issue has been settled.

It gets pretty funny Anna! lol And the wheels on the bus go round and round....Spankys favorite tune lately and it looks as if NJNB got a flat and is stuck someplace only she knows. : )

Nice trick. You define "Christianity" in such a way to exclude Mormonism; then "prove" that by definition Mormons are not Christian. You can do that with any name. label, or category you please.

Sounds like the Perry campaign is on self destruct mode with one FUBAR moment after another!

@Christ:

What you wrote may or may not be perfectly true(I don't study Mormon's that much), if you ask an American about the word cult, they know what it means. That preacher knew exactly what he was doing when he used the term in a very derogatory fashion. I see what you did there, nice try.

You have to take both intent and results into play when analyzing someone's speech. If he misspoke, then you can just say oops, and move along. This guy very specifically called an entire faith a 'cult'. He knew that cult was a derogatory term in the US, and used that term very specifically here. Don't make excuses for him and act like he is ignorant of the world. If he had done enough research to learn the ins and outs of the Mormon faith, he knows the meaning of the word cult.

Chris,

You are close, but to term the LDS faith as "Arian" misses the mark a bit. You are the first person I have ever heard use that term on us, in my 50+ years as a Mormon. Let's skip over Arian and go straight back to the original Bible text, which teaches that Jesus Christ and God the Father are separate and distinct personages. For example, Stephen's martyrdom:

Acts 7:55-56

55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

We take these verses literally. If that is the definition of Arianism, so be it.

Your point is well taken, that there ARE differences between Mormon doctrine and most other Christian faiths. But the kind of name-calling that we see in many of the posts on this website is decidedly un-Christian, in my opinion.

Chris: Your remarks are on the mark, although it makes no difference to me what Mormons believe. The history of Christianity is a history of religious conflict many times over issues that seem completely superfluous to us today. I dare say most Christians really don't understand at all what their particular sect believes or why. As I say, most have never delved into its history, nor are they interested in doing so. My concern is that they are willing to treat one another (and everyone else) justly so we might work toward a more peaceful planet. Thank you again for your thoughtful insights.

Good technical remark Chris. However, I seriously doubt that all "Christians" believe in "One. Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church".

This guy very specifically called an entire faith a 'cult'. He knew that cult was a derogatory term in the US, and used that term very specifically here. Don't make excuses for him and act like he is ignorant of the world.

Ah, so that is why so many atheists and pagans call Christianity a "cult" religion.

Yeah, Perry's toast, and Jeffress' church should lose it tax exempt status.

Unless I missed something in class, ALL churches who believe in CHRIST, are CATHOLIC since that's what it means. The church in ROME is the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. Apostolic, to my knowledge means they believe in the apostles....same thing as CATHOLIC. Did I get it wrong in class??????

theinternetisforlosers:

Nice trick. You define "Christianity" in such a way to exclude Mormonism; then "prove" that by definition Mormons are not Christian. You can do that with any name. label, or category you please.

Too true. Which is why only Jesus is qualified to sort this out.

But so far, He hasn't volunteered. He's busy right now as He is about to open His new franchise restaurant business called, "Loaves and Fishes." He figures if no one else will create some job opportunities, He will.

If you want a franchise, you can buy one for free, which includes free inventory for the life of the business, but in exchange, you have to give up all moneychanging activities and surrender your stock options as well as your guns.

The gun surrender operation, which is intended to replace that "Fast and Furious" thingy that the Department of Justice used to run, is called "Turn the Other Cheek."

Alternative job openings on Jesus's list currently include teaching a man to fish, so he can eat for a lifetime instead of depending on Republicans to trickle down some jobs, and turning water into wine, which is a BIG hit at exclusive Republican parties.

don't_carry_it_all:

And the wheels on the bus go round and round....Spankys favorite tune lately and it looks as if NJNB got a flat and is stuck someplace only she knows.

-- Spanky will change his tune in a New York minute when he hears that the bus drivers expect to be paid overtime for all hours over 8 and double time on Sundays. No Joe has ALWAYS been in a place only she knows, just east of the moon and west of a New York minute.

truth seeker, the 'one, holy catholic and...' refers to catholic as universal, not Holy Roman Catholic. And, yes, I do believe I said the Creed whether in a Baptist Church or a Catholic Church.

Well, Mormonism IS a cult. Of course, using popular definition means that the Democratic party, as well as the Republican party, are both cults. Using the definition by which it stood for centuries, Mormonism departs from the basic tenets taught in the Bible. Most abhorrent is this teaching that all good Mormons will be gods, like THE God, which is the lie satan told the angels, and thereby deceived 1/3 of them.

HOWEVER, once again, Mormonism is a cult or not a cult or whatever HAS NO PLACE IN THE DISCUSSION OR CONSIDERATION OF WHO WILL BE RUNNING FOR OFFICE!

Why is religion even an issue? Did we not learn that religion and politics don't work well together. The sand fleas in iraq and iran tried it thousands of years ago and have been fighting each other ever since.

So, Levi, would you say the same thing if Keith Ellison, the Democratic -- and Muslim -- congressperson from Minnesota, decided to run for President?

The fact is that religion plays a role in Presidential elections ALL THE TIME. The Constitution only forbids the federal government from imposing a religious test as a qualification for the office. It doesn't in any way preclude individuals from considering religion in making their own decisions.

Which is why candidates like Michele Bachmann are permitted to place such an emphasis on their religion during their campaigns. It's a legitimate issue. Period. Being currently sans religion myself, I definitely want to know if candidates have extremist religious views before I vote.

For example, I don't want to find out after I vote that George W. Bush thinks he talks to God, and that God told him to invade Iraq. Because that might have been helpful, if we had known this before the 2000 election.

The only reason the Romney camp is putting emphasis on this right now is that they sense Perry is vulnerable after Jeffress's remarks, and they're trying to seize the carpe. Otherwise, they would never touch it.

The Nicene Creed was promulgated by the Catholic Church. Thus, all faiths that do not recognize the Pope as Christ's temporal representative on Earth, including Protestants, not just Mormons, are non-Christians.

Well I for one am extremely happy that Perry and his campaign managers refuse to repudiate the Baptist Minister's statements of Mormonism as a cult and non-Christian. That will, at long last, make Perry a one run and done candidate for President! Time for celebration and its not even 2012! One nutcase loser 'in the bag'; seven, or will it be more, to go! Perry's formula for 'political suicide': 1. Put foot in mouth, 2. chew vigorusly, 3. refuse to spit it out, 4. finally choke on another persons words and bad campaign advice! Looks like one idiot embracing another idiots words and philosophy!

Invisible Hand

The Nicene Creed was promulgated by the Catholic Church. Thus, all faiths that do not recognize the Pope as Christ's temporal representative on Earth, including Protestants, not just Mormons, are non-Christians.

How about we just leave it as: Jesus Christ would have been the one and only true Christian - except that he was a Jew. So there are really NO real Christians at all. Just followers of Christ. Any church or organization which claims to be the only true Christians are just reinforcing their brand-name.

Richard .. social justice in GA is a cult and anyone believeing there will be social justice in GA is a cult member

Repudiate the pastor he sent out to all the talk shows to make sure the message gets out that Romney is a Mormon and therefore not a Christian? Not a chance! More talk shows to come. Gotta make sure the south votes for Perry. Cain can't get the south's vote either. He's black though he doesn't seem to realize it yet.

Gee, does anyone believe that NBC, CBS, ABC, etc. would make a big deal out of Kennedy if he were running for president today? Of course they wouldn't and that is why this is nothing more than a distraction to divide the repubs. Imagine Brian Williams asking JFK, do you agree with the Pope calling the Catholic Church the ONLY Christian religion? Heck, they wouldn't even ask Obama if he agreed with Wright and his proclamations. So, no, non-issue. Cult or not, do you agree with the way the economy is going and the fact that more people have become unemployed since Obama has taken over the WH? That's where the focus really is!

I don't really see alot of difference between rabid Evangelicals and radical Muslims.

Facts about Churches and tax-exempt status - and how those exemptions can be lost.

For a 501c3 church to openly speak out, or organize in opposition to, anything that the government declares "legal," even if it is immoral (e.g. abortion, homosexuality, etc.), that church will jeopardize its tax exempt status.

[http://]hushmoney.org/501c3-facts.htm

When people like the Dixie-Chicks or Hank Jr. open their mouth, people go after them - more people need to understand our laws and go after churches when they open theirs as well.

(article) "The governor has publicly disagreed with [Robert Jeffress's] characterization," he said.

* * *

For those of you who READ the story, this should be enough. However, with "guilty until proven innocent" MSNBC, it is never enough.

The Nicene Creed is doctrine for all Christian denominations, as far as I know. Obviously there are some theological differences between those denominations, or there wouldn't be different denominations. But on the creed they agree.

The term "catholic" means universal and not a specific reference to the Catholic Church.

Christian denominations recognize one another's members as Christian. If you are baptized in a Lutheran Church, for instance, you are considered Christian by Methodists, Orthodox, Catholics, Baptists, etc.

Those Christian denominations do not recognize the Mormon Church as being a Christian Church - none of them. A baptism in a Mormon Church is not considered valid by, again, Methodists, Orthodox, Catholics, Baptists, etc. The Mormon Church has a fundamentally different doctrine - even further away from Christianity than Unitarians (which, like the Mormons, believe in Christ).

The Trinity is more than just some "inside baseball" detail to Christians. It's pretty central to the faith.

None of this is meant to be derogatory to Mormons. If they don't believe in the Nicene Creed, then they don't. Jewish people don't, either. And that's fine - they believe what they believe.

Anna Molly, et al, there is one way to God the Father, who alone is the truth in all the Universe, and is alone Supreme in all that is seen and unseen. That way to God the Father is through faith in Jesus Christ. So teaches the Bible and so affirm the BILLIONS around the world who have been born again into an incorruptible relationship with God the Father, through faith in Jesus Christ and His atoning death on the cross.

Candidates may say they are an atheist, or not, and even if they believe in God, or not. And no, sorry, I do not want a Muslim for president of the US. We are too close to radical Islam and Muslims have not at all stood up and denounced radical Islam, but have been largely silent, except where demanding their rights is concerned. In addition, we may need to be engaged in further warfare in Muslim countries, and I don't want a President who is Muslim because they tend to be Muslim first and all else second. Yes, the same may be true of a Christian, who would be Christian first and all else second, but Christians have denounced radicalism, and understand that it is not through terror or warfare that people are converted to relationship with God through faith in Jesus Christ. It is through heart belief, not physical compulsion.

As for Mormons and the validity of their religion, I equate it with Scientology. When they say they believe in Jesus Christ, they do not mean what I mean when I say I believe in Jesus Christ. I work with a non-evangelistic (so far) Mormon, and tonight he made reference to satan being an evil god, and in fact they do not realize that they are following a deceptive teaching, the same teaching by which satan deceived 1/3 of the angels.

Why is Perry still running? He is completely out of touch with the right, the left, and the middle. I doubt he could even win the office of Scoutmaster even if his opponent was a convicted pedophile. Just go away already and refund all that hard-earned campaign contribution money to all your wealthy supporters who thought they could buy themselves a pliable U.S president.

lynseypug

"I don't really see alot of difference between rabid Evangelicals and radical Muslims."

Really? Seen many evangelicals strapping bombs on themselves lately? A lot of planes being flown into buildings by evangelicals? A lot of evangelicals calling for the death of all that think differently than them?

spudhead.

I too equate Mormonism and Scientology. In the area where they do not tell you everything up front. It is only after you have become indoctrinized that you learn the "secrets". Go to any other Christian church, Muslim mosque, Jewish temple, Buddist temple and you will get everything, no need to wait until you are ready to hear the "secrets". If they openend up and let everyone know their "secrets" from the start, and did not try to pass themselves off as just another Christian denomination, I would have no problem with them. They would just be another of the many religions out there.

But that is just what I have against the religion, nothing against the people. Religion really needs to be taken out of politics, it has gone too far, and I will vote for the best person to lead the county, not the best Christian.

The difference between a religion and a cult is that the former lays out all of their mythology for every member to see, while the latter keeps some of it hidden, secret, like some fraternity initiation ritual.

Either way, a politician who is a member of a genuine religion, a cult, or neither, can still be an effective leader...as long as superstition doesn't impede his or her ability to exercise logic and rational thought in the performance of the duties of the elected office.

theinternetisforlosers

"Nice trick. You define "Christianity" in such a way to exclude Mormonism; then "prove" that by definition Mormons are not Christian. You can do that with any name. label, or category you please."

The Nicene Creed, the fundamental beliefs all Christians believe, was formally adopted in 325 AD (informally much before that). So your argument is that we developed a definition of "Christian" for the sole purpose of excluding a religion that wouldn't exist for another 1500 years? Seriously? That would be a nice trick.

I am the true Texan, born, bred, and destroyed by progressive governments' collusion with a foreign country! My little grandchildren are now minorities in their own schools and I no longer owe any allegiance to the repressive national government!

Chris,

Does that mean Jesus was an Arian then? I don't recall Jesus ever saying that to be his follower that I have to accept a man-made oath that was made up 300 years after he died. I would say that the original Nicene Creed of 325 is the barometer of whether one is a Christian and most closely reflects Jesus' intent, not the arbitrary creed from 381. And also, if somebody believes all of the points within the creed, but does not have a fancy name for them or calls them something else, they are still a Christian. We are not the ones who decide who is or isn't a Christian, only the individual believer can do that.

Why should he? Obama didn't repudiate Jeremiah Wright for his comments.

I am no fan of Perry and I don't want a social conservative in office. I want a fiscal conservative in office.

CAIN in 2012

Jace,

I referred to the Nicene Creed of 325 - the Creed was merely solidifying what the majority of Christians at the time believed, it was not arbitrarily made up. In other words, Christians had been confessing the Creed before it was actually a Creed. A person must believe that Jesus is who he claims to be in order to be considered a Christian. He claims the authority to forgive all sins - authority reserved for God, therefore claiming to be God. Not to mention the many other verses about the peculiar relationship between Jesus and God (I am in the Father and the Father is in me; If you have seen me you have seen the Father; I and the Father are one.)

I agree with you that we can not decide who is or isn't a Christian, but we can decide whether a set of beliefs is in agreement with Christian belief and Mormonism does not appear to be in agreement. We are not judging a person's heart, but we are called to use wisdom to discern truth.

Governor who?

After reading about the history of mormonism in school I became an agnostic. It means that rationally I couldn't possibly believe the claims of most religions, but I want to believe at least some of it is true. I don't want to believe mormonism is true, nor scientology, because the founders of both of those religions were conmen. The reason it made me lose faith in all religion was because any new "religions" are generally called "cults" in this modern age, and only the old religions are taken seriously because of the numbers of people that believe in those fairy tales. Say religion didn't exist before this century and someone came to you today and said he was the son of God, or the herald of Xenu, Abraham, Muhammad or Chuthlu would you believe them? No, you would think they were insane. And why do people call ancient greek religion "mythology" because nobody believes in it anymore....and a thousand years from now people will say the same thing about our "myths"

The confusion stems from terminology. The label Christian should be reserved for believers in Christ, not only those who subscribe to a certain set of beliefs. If you want to differentiate between a church that agrees with the Nicene Creed and one that does not, you should use terms like Nicene, Trinitarian, Arian, and so forth. But to call yourselves Christian because of a "majority vote" and exclude all others who disagree with that controversial doctrine (and make no mistake - it was extremely controversial at the time) seems rather pompous and self-important. Merriam-Webster's dictionary defines Christian as: "one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ". To use any other definition is insulting and hurtful.

And I tire of the argument that justifies the label "non-Christian" because the other church supposedly does not worship the same Jesus. As far as I know, there was only One. To say that others don't deserve the Christian title because they don't have the same understanding as you do is to claim that your particular interpretation of the Bible somehow gives you a superior relationship with God. Sounds like Pride to me.

I was not trying to stir up controversy over whether what Mormons believe, but rather that there are significant differences.

@K.Kammeyer,

The probable reason you have not heard Mormons described as "Arians" versus "Christians" is that the term dropped out of the popular and ecclesiastical vocabulary in the mid-1930's when Hitler gave us "Aryanism." But, if you do just a little reading, you will find that St. Arius posed the same arguments about the natures of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit that you do. But it really does come down to a very basic division between three main arguments: Trinity, "twinhood" (as you ably expressed, and "singularity" (God is indivisible.) These were very important and very crucial ideas from around 180AD until the Middle Ages.

For those who think that I was trying to pull over a semantic "trick" that somehow enfranchises "Christians" while disenfranchising Mormons, nothing could be further from the truth. I am just relating what every Christian seminarian or catechist is taught. I only intended to point out specifically how the dogma of the CoCoLDS differs from the dogma of "mainstream" Christians. Unfortunately for some readers, the technically correct term is not a very familiar one.

@truth-seeker,

The issue is not whether Christians believe in "one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church" since most extant versions specify "one Holy, universal, and apostolic Church." Catholic means universal, not Roman Catholic. And apostolic simply means that the Christian Church traces its lineage directly back to the Apostles.

@HChris,

I had no intention of devising a definition that excludes Mormons. For the fist 800 years of its existence, the Christian Church as we know it fought a theological war with Gnostics. Gnostics were the intellectual "free-thinkers" of the early Christian Church and were the ones who questioned a lot of early beliefs, including the Trinity, the Virgin Birth, and even the existence of Heaven and Hell. The Nicene Creed was specifically arrived at as a definition of Christianity that specifically excluded Gnosticism. The Nicene Creed has been frequently changed, a word here and a phrase there, over the centuries, but always in an attempt to more clearly define the line between Christians and Gnostics. Even today, most Christians (estimated at more than 90%) believe in one or more principles that are Gnostic rather than Christian.

A good example of how it is carried out in practice is this: If you are baptized as a Christian, all "Christian" denominations recognize that baptism. If you are baptized as an infant in the Roman Catholic Church, a Southern Baptist congregation would recognize that baptism as valid, even though it might not be a way in which the particular congregation would do it. Mormons and Christians do not recognize each others' baptisms.

In no way would I ever compare LDS to Scientology, for example.

@Jace,

Jesus was a Jew. Period. He was not a Christian. And the Creed is not an oath. It is a concise and unambiguous statement of belief. The Nicene Creed was originally a way of drawing a line between "Christians" and "Gnostics." It wasn't a "majority vote" but something that had been evolving for around three hundred years and taken very seriously by religious scholars and the religious community. The Nicene Creed was not the only thing that was done to emphasize this line. Numerous books of both the New and Old Testaments were added to, removed from, or heavily edited to form the Bible. Books or passages that supported Gnosticism were purged and ones that supported the Chrisitian concept of Trinity (and other issues) were added or edited into existing books.

@Myles,

I do not intend to denigrate anyone's religion. Nothing that I said has any relevance to my personal beliefs. I was just expressing some troubling theological and historical facts. This has nothing to do with what I believe. I am only framing this in the way that is theologically and historically accurate. And I certainly do not think I have a "special" relationship with God, prideful or otherwise. It does not reflect badly on Mormons to say that they do not believe in the Trinity in the same way that, say, a Pentacostal Christian might. That does not make the Mormon wrong or the Christian right --- it just means that there is a significant and substantial difference in beliefs. If you use the dictionary definition and apply it strictly, there seem to be very few these days who actually seem to believe in the teachings of Christ. We still have out moneychangers in the Temple, and our people who see the Story of the Good Samaritan as a nice story, but not something they approve of. I doubt that Christ would be welcomed in too many "Christian" churches --- he was simply too much of a bleeding heart liberal for most "Christians" to be around. Today the first stone would have been cast and the woman slain.

My major issue personally is the "dominion" issue. Dominionists believe that the Founding Fathers were all Christians and only "born-again" fundamentalist Christians should be eligible to hold public office in the United States. They do not believe in separation of Church and State. Perry, Palion, Bachman, Romney and Huntsman are all dominionists. In certain respects, it can be proposed that people who do not believe in separation of Church and State are not likely to support it wholeheartedly as President.

Religion is a touchy subject, but history shouldn't be.

Chris - So along with LDS (Mormons), you don't consider Unitarians, Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witness', United Church of God, and some others as Christians because they don't believe in the Trinity? I want to make sure I understand your point. I'm sure, along with Mormons, you'd get an earful from those other branches of Protestantism.

Perry is committing political suicide by not distancing himself from this pastor and anyone else that espouses the "my religion is better than your religion" drivel. Ultimately, I don't think it matters too much since Perry's chances are dwindling by the day.

Davefromdanapointca

Actually Obama did repudiate the remarks of Reverend Wright. Now go back under your bridge like a good little troll.

Chris -

My post wasn't directed towards you, it was to "theinternetisforlosers" and I was agreeing with you.

dman -

If you understood Christian theology you would understand why we don't consider non-trinitarian views as Christian. If Jesus was just a man he would have been a sinner and his death would have had no redemptive value, if he was a man and wasn't a sinner, we have no need for a redeemer since we can all live a perfect life if we try hard enough (this is not a Christian belief). If Jesus is a god, but not THE God, it's polytheism which would completely ignore the Old Testament.

It's all interconnected. Not to mention Jesus makes the claim that he is God and God is he, he claims to have the authority to forgive all sins (authority claimed only by God). He is claiming to be God. If a religion disagrees that Jesus is what he claims to be, how can they be Christians?

@ navy patriot,

No he did not. In fact he looked the American people in the eye and told us he never heard him say anything bad about the U.S.A. Not "GOD DAMN AMERICA" or any of the other diatribes he spewwed about this country. This after he stated he was a christian and went to his church for 20 years. Only after the video evidence came out did he say anything about him and then chided the American public for purposely trying to take things out of context as he tried to distance himself from Wright.

You are as bad a liar as your mesiah, obama.

Levi777

...tonight he made reference to satan being an evil god, and in fact they do not realize that they are following a deceptive teaching, the same teaching by which satan deceived 1/3 of the angels.

It is not my intent to insult any person's faith. But from the outside, from a point of view of someone who is not afraid to die without Jesus Christ in his life, I'd say the current level of deception is upwards of 50% of all Americans at this point in history. To me, the ones holding the rest of the country back are those debating whether the Easter Bunny's ears are pink on the inside or tan. This is what it looks like to me.

Chris,

You could ask any Mormon if they believe in the contents of the Nicene Creed of 325 and they would definitely agree. However, if you asked them if they believe in the Nicene Creed, without explaining what it was, then they would say no, or more likely, "huh?". I was just trying to point out earlier that the name, Nicene Creed, is arbitrary.

With respects to their "unusual" relationship with Jesus; your criticism that they meld Jesus and God into one entity is the opposite of what is normally thrown their way. By the concept of Trinity Christians believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost (or Spirit) are separate but one. Worshiping Jesus is worshiping God. They coexist as separate and combined entities.

Mormons refer to God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost as the "Godhead" or, less often, the "Three". This contrasts with the concept of Trinity by emphasizing the separateness of each. Although Mormons will tell you that they still believe the three are united, others call them polytheists (among other things).

It's really a fantastic irony (maybe even a Catch-22): The path to God requires that you worship Jesus, yet worshiping Jesus breaks one of the most important of God's Commandments. You cannot worship more than one God! Period!

Of course, given enough time any problem can be rationalized away. I can just envision it now......

Person 1: "We have to worship God AND his son? "

Person 2: "That's polytheistic blasphemy!"

Person 1: "Ahh, screw it, they live in the same place. Close enough."

Person 2: "Yeah, you're right. Close enough"

By that logic the ancient Greeks were monotheists as well. Well, I admit, Hades did live kind of far away; however, they WERE all related to each other. Close enough.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear...

I was not saying that Mormons believe that Jesus, the Holy Spirit and God (the Father) are one - they do not believe they are.

Christians do. From the Nicene Creed:

"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible, and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father." (emphasis added)

Christians believe in one God: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Mormons believe in three gods: The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, united in purpose, but separate in their essences.

It might seem like a very small detail, but it is not. It is fundamental to the correct understanding of the Christian faith.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear.

The interpretations of religious leaders and scholars are exactly that, interpretations. Jesus was not at the Council of Nicea to instruct the proceedings; nor did he appoint those who are now remembered as the representatives of the people. We can never know what was discussed, what wasn't discussed, or what was rejected by these men. We are at the bottom of a funnel which they created, and will never know what was originally poured in. They may have gotten it right, but they may have also gotten it wrong. They were men--imperfect men, with motivations, biases, and the ability to get things wrong.

It sounds melodramatic, but the past really is slipping away. Every day that passes separates us from Jesus' time more and more. Think back how far away 100 years seems, now 200, now 300. Now realize that the Council of Nicea was in the same position as us today trying to remember colonial America, but worse. Sure they had writings, but those writings were authored by man, transcribed and re-transcribed by other men, and subjected to the interpretation of man before even they had a chance to interpret what was passed on to us (after much more interpretation and transcribing, of course); at least we had the printing press!

We will never know what Christianity was like in Jesus' time or what he intended it to be in ours. What Jesus actually said, did, or meant, is only available to us through men; and we all know what idiots they are :)

I personally think that Christianity is one step closer to polytheism than Judaism or Islam, and that Mormons are even a step closer than that. I think that the concept of Trinity is an interpretation of man and just seems like a convenient way to explain why the worship of Jesus does not violate the Ten Commandments. Who the hell knows though when the only information we have on the subject for the last 2,000 years has been given to us through the interpretations of other men.

Chris

Your argument is ridiculous. You could say that those that accept the Nicene Creed could call themselves "Catholics", but by definition, "Christians" are followers of Christ. Since Christ demanded that no one worships him, made clear separation between himself and God (Do not call me good, only one is good, the Father), prayed to God on a regular basis, and never taught any of his followers to worship himself, or that he was God... "Catholics" cannot call themselves actual Christians, since they do no follower the teachings of Christ or his first century followers. The Nicene Creed was a political document designed to unite pagan and Christian religions in order to keep political control over the Roman Empire. The word "Catholic" means "Universal". The actual name of the church is the Roman Universal Church.

Before arguing, go ahead and consider:

Nearly all "Catholic" celebrations are based around Roman Pagan practices

Christmas - Date is incorrect and is from Natalus Solis Invictus, the birth of the Roman Sun God

Birthdays - First century Christians are recorded as purposely not celebrating their birthdays, it was recorded to be performed as a pagan act.

Easter (the practices used are from fertility festivals, not Christ's ressurection)

Halloween - no explanation necessary

The concept of the Trinity itself is a Pagan belief dating back to Egyptian Triad Gods.

Organized Religion was designed to be a controlling, political force. True Christians follow the actual teachings of Christ. Not the political mess that came after.

Say 'refuditate', Mitt.

Dag-nab-it Buzz - you beat me too it! lol

NJNB -- Do tell in all your infinite wisdom who/what you were referring to when you talk about "convoluted stories"? Please explain in detail because the last place you said the word convoluted you displayed your lack of wisdom while sounding like a certain leader of another country, a little delusional.

What exactly does Holder have to do with this article? Your disbelief in the Iran hit man plot makes your tin foil hat pop out of your white sheet hood. But hey, nice attempt at ignoring This article about your idiot Rethugs eating each other!

NJNB: thinking outside the box was the best tool a teacher had

And yet the Republicans/Conservatives?Tea PArtiers REFUSE to think outside of their little box...

You're concerned about people changing the subject? Liberals have no clue how idiotic they look to people with common sense.

Common sense, as demonstrated via a fundamentalist nut-job like Perry, who, if it were not for the fact he's seeking nomination, would immediately pounce on Mormonism's cult association with rabid glee. Or, do you support the notion that Perry "accidentally" associates with (and invites to large, fruitless prayer conventions) pastors who teach the exact same thing, perhaps? Let's not even dive into the ridiculous theocratic notions these close friends of Perry hold sacred, as I'm sure, much like the Nigg3rhead stone, it is rationalized away as just a big misunderstanding.

Your superior 'common sense' appears to be lacking when it comes to drawing rather obvious conclusions, although it is entertaining for a rationalist to watch the two frontrunners compare imaginary buddies, all while the Right picks their poison — or, in your case, attempts a classic deflection response.

Has it crossed your mind that it is the idiots on the Right who bring up such religious nonsense as a litmus test in the first place?

Correction to my above post NJNB used the word concocted. In her latest she uses convoluted. But don't let that stop you NJNB from answering the question in my post....

joe--A Republican and common sense does not compute. A Republican does not know how ignorant he sounds to someone with common sense and you just proved it. You see, Liberal is the name the Republicans gave to Libertarians in the early 20th century since Liberals were so despised then that they basically creased to exist. Since it worked on Libertarians, the Republicans are trying the same tactic on Democrats today. The only problem is that the Libertarians have just about taken over the Republican party so calling a Democrat a Liberal is kin to a pot calling a kettle black. In other words, Libertarian/Republicans/TEA party whichever name you wish to go by are the butt of the joke when you try to call Democrats Liberals.

Excuses...

The Obama reelection campaign will be based on excuses.

Axelrod and Plouffe can't run on accomplishment, so...

Excuses will have to do.

$1 billion worth of campaign ads filled with excuses, to be specific.

The GOP debates display just how stupid, condemning, racist, big money puppets they really are. Is America still stupid about how this country got to the point of no jobs, wars we had no business to be in other than TRY to take control of their oil, companies closed down and sent America to bankruptcy? They are holding Obama accountable for what Bush did and refuse to see how the US is in such a crisis and have the stupidity to keep blocking everything in legislature, which they presented before as their ideas. I love it when they show how shallow and bias they are.

D Russ, they have no other choice but to drag American down or otherwise they would not see the inside of the White House for another 20 years. I fault the people and the Conservative news media (Liberal media is a myth) for not informing the people just what each party stands for.

The other problem is that people believe what they want to believe and the truth doesn't matter.

We should have been done with judging a candidate based on his or her religion before Kennedy was elected - and certainly should have been done with it after. I don't recall any issues with Kennedy calling the Pope for directions, as my father maintained that he would.

I have a hard time calling Mormons Christians because of their belief that God was once a man -- but what does that have to do with Mitt Romney's qualifications to be President? None, as far as I can see. The discussion about whether Mormons are Christians or not has no place in politics, and Pastor Jeffress is entirely out of line.

no joe, no bo, nj

...Liberals have no clue how idiotic they look to people with common sense.

Conservatives have no clue how surrounded they are by people fed up with you wealthy 2% telling us we have no common sense. Oh, wait... you're not part of the wealthiest 2%? Yep. That's Republican common sense all right.

you're not part of the wealthiest 2%?

Rick - you must be new around here - in HER mind & her subsequent lies she thinks so! ;o)

Take her supposed house in Key West as a clue...

The NJ nut job couldn't tell the truth is someone notarized her tongue... it's just not in her genetic make-up... lol

;)

[Axelrod and Plouffe...]

And THERE IT IS!

lol...you crack me up...

...now if you would have said "Koch Industries being investigated for illegal dealings with Iran", you would get my attention...

...but yet, again, you disappoint...

...talk about just another face in the crowd...

...lol...

where are you folks getting all the misinformation on Mormon beliefs? In the Wentworth letter the beliefs of the CHurch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are clearly stated. They are known as The Artcles of Faith. Upon reading them you may be surprised to find that Mormons believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. They also believe in God the father, his son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. I believe the principles and ordinances of gospel, faith, repentence baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost are also in there. Latter Day Saints worship and pray to the same God and Creator that Catholics, Southern Baptist, Lutherans, Protestants and the list goes on. You say it is a cult because it was started by a man named Smith instead of Luther, Calvin or a King of England. Jesus Christ is at the center of The church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and always will be. If this isn't Christianity some one please post beliefs that are. The Church does not endorse political candidates or tell its members who to vote for. It also believes that men are free to worship in the manner of thier own consciences

"If this isn't Christianity some one please post beliefs that are."

Google Nicene Creed and you'll see the basic doctrine for Christian churches.

"Upon reading them you may be surprised to find that Mormons believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."

See, here's my problem. You leave yourselves a way out - you can deny the validity of the bible by claiming parts were mistranslated. Specifically, the parts that conflict with doctrine from the Book of Mormon.

The statement "as far as it is translated correctly" means that some of the versions of the bible have different interpretations, words are replaced, or missing. We use the King James Version and no other. We believe that this is the "most correct" version. You cannot tell me that much of the feeling, eloquence and even meaning has not been lost in translations such as the NLT version which has been translated in a "thought for thought" manner.

Amanda, I don't think so. The reason Joe Smith said some angel told him to write the Book of Mormon was to correct biblical notions that were - in Smith's view - flat out wrong. We're talking significant changes, like the big stuff - nature of God (or Gods, as Mormonism is polytheistic; and that's not just a Trinity comment), nature of man, etc., or Smith wouldn't have had any logical reason for propagating the Book of Mormon.

This brings up an interesting question. Let's assume for a second that Mitt gets the nomination and wins the general election. Upon which book would he place his hand while taking the oath of office?

COMMON SENSE-3272718

...The Articles of Faith. Upon reading them you may be surprised to find that Mormons believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. They also believe in God the father, his son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

As a non-believer in an invisible deity, this just says to me that the Mormons took two scoops of delusion instead of one. They doubled-up on a concept that was already too hard to swallow.

Good one, GBM.

ATC "Unfortunately, if one is an evangelical Christian, there are certain religious groups that are classified as cults, and Mormonism is one such group, as well as the Seventh Day Adventists, to name several."

To name others Jehovah's Witness, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism... in fact, any religious group not evangelical Christians are going to hell - according to them.

It is okay to ask Romney if, as a Mormon, he is technically a mainstream Christian. The answer is that Mormons do not accept the Nicene Creed and therefore are not technically mainstream (or otherwise) Christians.

It is equally okay to ask Perry and Bachman and Palin if they are "dominionists". A dominionist is one who believes that only certain born-again, Pentecostal, fundamentalist Christians should be allowed to hold elected or appointed office. There are sufficient indications that at least these three are dominionists.

Is one really better than another? Is either (or both) a cult? Good questions.

Well said. Screw religious affiliation. What matters is what they're going to do once they're put in the position to make change. We all know some people can talk a big game but not produce *I'm looking squarely at you, Obama*. But when you look at the history behind Huntsman and Romney, you see results. Utah is one of the least-impacted states and continues to have a healthy budget, below average unemployment, and big businesses moving in. Romney saved the 2002 Olympics and has several other successful business ventures. Only thing is, Huntsman doesn't have the popularity at this point to challenge Romney, so you're really only left with Romney.

Romney vs Obama 2012: FIGHT!

Utah (and Texas) didn't experience the housing boom as severely as the rest of the nation. Utah could have even greater tourism and growth if they actually welcomed non-Mormons to their state and stopped being a theocracy. The state and SLC have beauty but it's ruined by strip mining, industrial areas, and refineries that pollute the water and air because they are anti-regulation. Also like Texas, Utah has had lower unemployment due to a lot of low-paying jobs. Until now they have enjoyed a growing population thanks to the Mormon culture. I wouldn't bring up the Olympics either--that was messy.

Utah is a red state composed of religious fundamentalists and Teabag rednecks, especially outside SLC. Jon Huntsman and even Romney are too liberal for these folks. Even with the Mormon bashing, they are Teabaggers who may lean toward Perry. Why Mormons are even in the Republican Party is amazing.

Get religion out of politics. You can't have a Rudy Giuliani or Newt Gingrich or Ron Paul. Now you can't have Romney or Huntsman because they aren't the *correct type* of Christian. You people deserve each other.

President Obama has tried a balanced approach. The GOP and reason don't belong in the same sentence. Their mantra: Obama fails, country fails, we win back the white house. I can't support any party that puts their own ideology before the good of the country...

Chris-537131

...Is one really better than another? Is either (or both) a cult? Good questions.

Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny? Another good question.

How about a leader that does not buy into the BS PERIOD. I wish a politician would have the guts to stand up and say..."I am not going to placate you retards by giving creedence to your silly ass superstitions. Plus, if I did believe in fairy tales, I would keep it to myself so as not to alienate the people who did not believe in the same BS as I do.....

Sure he agrees with the pastor, as do all the evangelicals in the party, they just won't come out publicly. I give Perry credit for at least having a conviction on this one issue, albeit flawed...

Newsvine: I swear I will stop posting on here if you don't take those stupid UnitedHealthcare rollover adds down. They are annoying as hell!!!

the republican party IS a group of religious extremists

AH! And what better example of a non-extremist that that loving anti-semite and honorable Jeremiah Wright?

.......eh pishaw?

well, wright isn't running for president, now is he, unlike bachmann, palin, perry (to name the leading examples of religion intersecting politics)? Of course both parties have extremists, but if you can't find many more religious extremists in the GOP than in the dems then your head in inserted up your rear. :)

@vermontgay

Ahhhhhhh Vermont!

Shhhhhh Listen...can you hear that? Put your ear on the ground.......

At this time of day in Vermont, you can hear the stampede of pot head Marxist professors and students living off their rich duddys in Burlington all racing to the nearest Starbucks.

You see its this time of year when the male hippies all meet at the nearest Starbucks after the mating season on Wall street (in public view I may add) to fight over who loves Obama the most in order to show their masculinity to impress the female hippies.....

I've seen the female hippies...at least now I know why Vermont was the first state to legalize gay marriages...

Sir Mormons believe the bible to be the word of God, they also believe in God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghosts. They believe believe that the ordinances and principles of the gospel are faith, repentence, baptism, and gift of the Holy Ghost. They pray to the same Supreme Being and Creator as the Baptist, Lutherans , Catholics, and Evangelicans. They believe in Christ being the center of their church. You say this is not Christianity? What is

Obama only "presents" himself as a Christian because that's what the majority of voters (primarily black) wanted to hear. He got elected because of that and his race. But look at his sympathies towards Muslims and how he kisses their asses all the time. His Wife is an avowed racist and shows it every day the way she treats the Secret Service and white staff. Obama is the most dangerous President this country has EVER had. We need a straight up candidate with business acumen, not political or religious.

ccipaul you can't be that ignorant.....well I guess you can. How do you have such intimate details???IDIOT

Raymond, Jeffers undoubtedly only considers real Christians to be Christians.

And the First United Communist Church of the Black Klan that BHO went to for years would not qualify.

Because Romney is white...

be careful someone might use their magic underware to turn you into a goon!!!!!!

Isn't it magic underwear? I don't mean to be a spelling Nazi, but if the magic underwear is important to them, we ought to at least spell it correctly.

Rick Perry was NEVER a viable candidate! He is GW Bush x 1000. At least GW Bush had some likabilities, and at least GW Bush believed what he said and did. Perry does neither. He is full of hot air.

Evangelicals are a cult. Pentecostals are a cult. Southern Baptists are a cult.

The Catholic Church, as the only true Christian church, through its uninterrupted succession of Popes, traces its lineage all the way back to St. Peter, the apostle whom Jesus appointed to lead His Church.

Any religion is a cult!!

Jeffers was so in error with his so called facts about the LDS Faith. First of all, the Book of Mormon is a religious history covering 600 bc to 400 ad concerning the people who lived on the american continents and how God dealt with them. It actually begins in Jerusalem. Christ appeared to these people immediately after his ressurection in the old world. This is recorded by the prophets of the Book of Mormon who were there to witness the event. Christ name appears in the Book of Mormon over 2500 times. LDS also believe in the Bible and are taught the old and new testament. The question that Chris Mathews and others forget to ask someone like Jeffers is: Would you tell Mitt Romney, the current Prophet-Thomas S. Monson, each of the current living 12 Apostles that they are not Christians to their face? Not to mention the other 14 million world-wide members. The simple fact that the LDS don't go along with the Nicene Creed that was voted upon by men in 325 AD to define who God and Christ are is really the point that is missing here. The LDS believe that Christ's Church was restored to the earth 1800 years later because the Church had been taken away from the earth. The Great Apostasy that Paul talked about actually happend. "A falling away first". Look at what was left- The Catholic Church and all of the current breakoffs-the protestants. Joseph Smith was called by God at age 14 to be the restoration prophet to restore His Church with the authority (Priesthood) to never be taken away again. He was visited in a vision by both the Father and the Son at the same time in 1820. Kind of hard to believe like Jeffers and all the other Nicene Creed followers when you are personally introduced to the son," Joseph, this is my beloved Son, hear him." Look how far man progressed from the time of Christ to 1830. Look how far man has progressed since 1830 to 2011? Go to mormon.org to get the facts straight. I would need alot of space to cover all of the mis-information about the LDS in this interview with Jeffers. Chris M was not informed enough to ask the right questions. He got the SPIN thing right however. I went to Jeffers website. It list all of his college degrees that I guess he thinks gives him some type of authority. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints can trace their individual priesthood lineage and authority back to Christ himself. No paid ministry in the LDS Church. The law of tithing (from the Bible) is followed. Could Jeffers and other pastors be worried with their collection plates? I would invite Jeffers to speak of the LDS having a living prophet and 12 living Apostles.A major point most religious leaders seem to skip over. Notice he only brought up Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. Not much of a threat to him now as they are no longer with us. He definitely doesn't have a clue what the Book of Mormon is all about. I guess he believes the heavens are closed and God or Christ ( by the way, LDS believe they are two distinct divine personages- The Father & His son Jesus Christ) and Jeffers believes they are not two separate individuals. I wish someone would ask him to explain all the Biblical and Book of Momon scriptures that make it very clear they are actually a Father & a Son. As you read this post-please ask yourself what do you believe about the Trinity. Do you believe they are one person who can appear in the form of a son and the Holy Ghost like Jeffers, or do you think of them as a true Father and begotten son and separate but always for a common goal and purpose. Go to the Nicene Creed and try to make sense out of that 325 ad document. I guess when the Southern Baptist Convention gets together to vote on doctrine or policies that they are just a bunch of men/women voting. Certainly God can't have a hand in it because he doesn't speak to us anymore. He has left us to fend for ourselves? Wrong !

To the invisible hand. Please site in the bible the proclamation of affirming "Popes" as God's Holy emissary or spokesperson here on earth.

beautifully written and gratefully quoted...thanks..John