Boy that ought to play right well in Utah

There is no bigotry in the Republican party......... (rolls eyes)

"Do we want a candidate who is a good, moral person, or one who is a born again follower of our Lord Jesus Christ?" he asked.

Doesn't mention that the born again follower of our Lord Jesus Christ is a good, moral person. So a GOP candidate does not need to be a good, moral person - just a Christian. Just like PERRY said just recently. So for the GOPers only a Christian will do.

Who had any doubt that this would come up? The born again crowd believes that they are God's people, and that no other religion will go to Heaven or should go to the White House. They love to talk to Jesus, and he answers them right back with all of the FOX talking points.

Get them Hoods & Sheets washed & Ironed because the Religous Right is about to "Tar & Feather" Mitt!

Don't forget the accesories, such as TeaBags!

"Well, Rick Perry's a Christian. He's an evangelical Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ,"

...and no doubt, based on Perrys' stance on convicted criminals, death penalties and all...quess he would have supported the crucifiction of Jesus!..

Afterall Jesus was judged and convicted!

[Why that is fantastic.]

What IS fantastic is how insignificant you have become..."counselor"...

By the way, Spanky...take a poke at anyone's wife today here on FR?

Seems you have sunk to a new low...even for a scumbag lawyer like yourself...

This is so ignorant.

Mormons baptize by immersion....a witness to accepting/ recognizing Jesus more dramatically than water over the head.

Seems Jefress' version of "born again" is lacking in peripheral vision.

To Rick Perry: "Run, Forrest, run!"

You said it, Feisty. The democrats don't have to say a word; the GOP may implode all by itself. This will be quite a primary.

chilled, you do know that there were no Christian until after the crucifiction of Jesus, right?

That is all that we need: A war between "presidential hopefuls" religious nut fanatics! It's ok with me, as long as don't expect us TO BELIEVE ANY WORD THEY SAY...

As far as I am concerned, they all belong in the same asylum.....

Has anyone seen bag boy?

***Paging*** bag boy - your presence is requested on thread #1...

Mitt Romney's a good moral person but he's not a Christian. Mormonism is not Christianity. It has always been considered a cult by the mainstream of Christianity. So it's the difference between a Christian and a non-Christian.

What does this guy know? Lutherans in the Wisconsin Synod -- which included Michele Bachmann until a short time ago -- think that Catholicism is a cult and that the Pope is the Anti-Christ.

Let's suppose we call in an unbiased referee ... say, Jesus ... to settle this dispute.

Because it occurs to me that no one else is qualified.

By the way, what difference does it make? Jews aren't Christians, either.

And we heard Romney just today emphasizing that it was important that the U.S. defend Israel.

What for?

If there is really a God and Jesus, those "born again" are gonna be in hot water. Baptised or not.

Elise, good catch! It's either or I guess.

You're all making me laugh this afternoon, well almost all of you.

Yea, and clinging to guns, the bible, lying about painting over bigoted graffiti on a rock, and thinking President Obama is the Anti-Christ is cult like too.

Amused, they're "Born Again", but are Members of "The Church of Whats Happening Now"!

In other words, they're Freaking HYPOCRITS, every Last 1 of'em!

Elise wrote:

"Do we want a candidate who is a good, moral person, or one who is a born again follower of our Lord Jesus Christ?" he asked.

Doesn't mention that the born again follower of our Lord Jesus Christ is a good, moral person. So a GOP candidate does not need to be a good, moral person - just a Christian. Just like PERRY said just recently. So for the GOPers only a Christian will do.

You're hitting the nail on the head Elise. There's a faction out there, I don't know how large, but an example is "The Family" C-Street group who believe God chooses who should lead and it has nothing to do with goodness, morality or even qualifications.

Liberals are the first to defend rights such as the right to practice religion -- to the point that religion should not be a criteria, any more than race, gender, etc. to become the POTUS. It should be about merit, also ethics, and personal belief is a factor in terms of loyalty to country.

It is also fair, however, to reject those who cross the line of Separation of Church and State, whether basing foreign policy on beliefs such as the Rapture, mixing religion into politics by legislating morality, or worse groups that want the US to become a Christian theocracy. Such candidates are absolutely unacceptable because it's against our founding principles as a nation.

Almost every GOP/TP candidate should be excluded for consideration except Ron Paul in terms of religion. Herman Cain's comments about Sharia Law excludes him. The POTUS must represent all Americans, and must operate from fact not fiction.

I hate to think of what they would have done to Jesus. He was an anti-war socialist who gave away free food, healthcare, and housing. He also had dark skin if you believe the bible.

Well said, True Patriot.

Plus I think it'd have to be a non-party neutral, like say L. Ron Hubbard, or maybe they'd settle for Tom Cruise.

He's a Vegan or something.

No, that's Bill Clinton. Should we call him?

Really AM- your going to talk to Jesus, and that's what you are going to ask him?

I was thinking this weeks Lotto numbers would be nice to know.

Remember that Jesus threw the money-lenders OUT of the Temple.

The lesser-known fact is that they immediately regrouped and formed Wall Street.

Anna - good one!

[The lesser-known fact is that they immediately regrouped and formed Wall Street.]

Anna, thanks for the chuckle...that is RICH!

...oh, wait...never mind...

OK, Feisty-

Where are the conservative First Read bloggers showing anti-Mormon bigotry?

Let me at 'em.

Who was it?

Spank?

JoAnna?

No Joe?

The "bobs"?

Me ?

Couldn't have been me...

Can't vote for Jesus either...he's a Jew!

Where are the conservative First Read bloggers showing anti-Mormon bigotry?

Oh my, bag boy - I've seen some pretty lame attempts at spin out of you, but, this one has to take the prize! lol

The bag boy got caught with his pants down...

I'm loving it. The GOP has been in self-destruct mode for a long time.

Comparing evangical Christianity to the Church of LDS??? LOL It's kinda like: What flavor of crazy would you like today? LOL Let's wait for Sarah's endorsement to finish off the last man standing.

I wish these stupid bigot so-called Christians would stay under their rock and shut up!!

And if they don't just shut up, I hope they turn the rest of the country against themselves with their stupid pronouncements!!!

I hope Romney gets nominated just to spite their sorry behinds!!!

Gee it was just a little over 200 years ago (when our country was beginning) that the Baptist were considered a cult by the dominant religious establishments of the colonies. The Baptist seem to forget, that they were the ones that pushed for freedom of religion, against the "Church of England" since baptist were outlawed at that time. My Oh My how they have changed their tune...!

I, for one, don't believe that any politician is a good moral person. If they have reached the point where they are a running for president, they sold their soul to the devil long ago.

[I've seen some pretty lame attempts at spin out of you...]

Uh oh...looks like the gig is up...

...let the circus clown backpedaling begin...

...Doot Doo DoDoDoDo Doot Doo Doo Doo...

WHOA!

DJ-422465-

Can you back any of those very bold claims up? Because I guarantee you can't.

Bread to Fishes, yeah. "If a man shall not work, neither shall he eat." was also a jesus-ism that advocates get a job or starve to death. Ain't the bible fun? Jesus didn't do UI, fellas.

"Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" was also a jesus-ism on taxes.

As for Dark Skin, now you're being just plain silly. You can't back that up at all, mostly because Jews are caucasians in DNA. And jesus was pure jewish.

Wow. i'm not even a true believer, but even I'll call you out for being flat-out incorrect on what-you-think-you-know.

And gets your fact straight. Jews as a religion aren't christian (cuz they're jews).

Jews as a race can, and some are, Christian. And atheist. And orthodox.

better differentiate what you mean when you say 'Jews'. you mean the religion or the people?

Also, note, that although 'Jews' (religion) aren't christian, they do share a rather large section of the Bible with each other. The Torah = The first 10 books of the old testament. So christianity is just an expansion of judaism.

And, let me be the first to put some honesty out there. Although I can deal with mormons, jews, christians, etc.

Seriously. Mormonism is a cult as far as I can see/am concerned. No joke. CULT. Like SCIENTOLOGY. Or the people who killed themselves for some asteroid or comet or whatever.

Cult.

Spank-

I'm going to have to test you for anti-Mormon bigotry.

Here goes:

Given a choice between voting to reelect Barack Obama, or voting to elect Mitt (magic underwear aside)...

What's it going to be, pal?

Hiya, mouse!

Mixed,

No contest. If it's down to Mitt vs. Obama, I just won't vote for president :D

BAM!

This "endorsement" won't matter anyway in the long run. and I do live the word play here: Choice A- A good, moral person OR Choice B- A Christian (but NO!! you can't have BOTH!!!)

But what grates me is the amount of ignorance this Dr Born Again has- so I gather from his statements, if you aren't following him and his belief- you're not Christian??? WHAT?! Since when does it matter if you belong to his Church or not. If you belong to a church- more power to you. But to single out ONE religion like that is sheer ignorance! I was kind of under the impression if you believe in & follow Christ- you are by definition, a Christian!

What am I missing here?

The evangelicals will vote for a candidate if, and only if:

• the candidate believes the creation myth and rejects the scientific Theory of Evolution
• the candidate will govern more from the Bible than from the US Constitution
• the candidate will work to deny the right of citizens if they are not heterosexual
• the candidate will allow Christian teaching in public schools
• the candidate must allow freedom of religion to Christians, but the rights of other faiths are negotiable

I just want to say something about Mormans, The real name of the Church is The Church Of Jeasus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We do beleive in Jesus. He is our way back home (to Heven). We follow the teaching of Christ in our everyday life and at Church Meetings.

Thank You So Much!

Kattie

Ah teknishan, in your haste to criticize my post, you may not have noticed that no where in it do I mention the word 'Christian'. I also didn't mention 'Jews'. Not sure where you went with that tangent either.

You should also be aware that "If a man shall not work, neither shall he eat." was spoken by Paul, not Jesus.

Last but not least, Jesus was believed to be olive-coloured as was the skin of Mediterranean people in that region. Most historians agree on that fact whether it makes you uncomfortable or not.

teknishan-

how do you define cult? and what makes you the expert on it?

cult:

1. a particular system of religious worship, especially with reference to its rites and ceremonies. 2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, especially as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. 3. the object of such devotion. 4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc. 5. Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.

by these definitions- ALL religions worldwide can be classified as cults. But that would make 83% of the US population WRONG (those that profess to be religious)! And- all groups and organizations- in fact all like minded people can be considered under that banner. That would include the Boy/Girl Scouts, the Masons, Any Labor Union out there, Florida State University, The entire US population for following our flag! Pick one and it can fall under that definition.

BTW, "Mormons" is a nickname for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If you want to know what they believe in, instead of speculating, find out! Go to the official Church website. Religion is a very personal life experience and I for one am glad to live in a nation that allows for one to decide what and whom they will worship according to the dictates of their own conscience. Get educated on what members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe before you make yourself look like an idiot! They do worship Jesus...duh! So that makes them Christians...period.

How many sister wives does Mitten have?

Well, we do have to give credit to this pastor man, he spoke the truth of what the Christian right really believes. And that is why they don't like Romney. My question is will they swallow their insane beliefs to vote for Romney, because that is who they are most likely to get? Will they sell out their "Christian" bigotry? I bet they will, because they hate Pres. Obama more than Mitt's "cult". Hypocrites!

How many of our "good" Christian politicans have gone to jail for stealing? How many of them are gay? How many of them are serial fornicators? Larry Craig is Methodist. Bill Clinton is Southern Baptist. Kennedy's are Catholic. By the way folks in the Bible Jesus says " thou art Peter and upon this rock I'll will build my Church". So if your not Catholic your not a Christian.

In John 1:42, Jesus changes the Apostle Simon’s name to Cephas, or Peter, a name which means “Rock”. Now we know from scripture that Jesus is the Rock, or Cornerstone (1 Corinthians 10:4). Therefore, it can be assumed from this name change that Jesus is handing on to Peter what He Himself is, Rock.

First off the statements were made by the pastor that was introducing Perry to the group that he was speaking to, not the candidate himself. So we can assign no blame to Perry for the statement as he came out and said he didn't agree with it immediately afterward. Unlike Barak Hussein Obama who defended statements made by his pastor up until there was a large outcry against them and then he said that they were ok because they were made by a man who was getting up in years and we all need to be tolerant - remember the statement "God Damn America to Hell!". He even threw his own Grandmother under the bus and called her a racist over the issue. It took the President then candidate, a long time to back away from Reverend Wright.

It seems to me that the media is working overtime to come up with anything to discredit anyone that might be running against Mr. Obama. 30 years ago there was a bad word painted on a rock on a property that this man rented! That rock wasn't painted over good enough! The man that introduced him talked about religious beliefs! What's next? Someone in the back row at his latest speech farted and it really reeked!?!

Come on you can do better than that!

Question.

If Mormons still allow multiple wives, what does that do to the sanctity of traditional marriage between a man and a woman, is it more wives more sanctity or more wives less sanctity?

^^^ Is not my son

These Christian wackos including Perry despite his self serving statement not only don't believe Mormons are Christians they feel the same about Catholics and virtually any other sect that is not them.

The main Mormon Church does not allow more than one wife.

I guess redwig lied to us, she's not 'rested', she's still jabbering! For once I was hoping she'd tell the truth!

Divide & Conquer!!!! It's nice when it's voluntary!!!

How does Romney explain to Cain about "The Mark of Cain"?

The Mark of Cain

The Mormon prophet Brigham Young on the appearence of Africans:

“Cain slew his brother....and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN...”
(Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, pages 290-291)

From a Mormon Publication:

“Their skin is quite black, their hair woolly and black, THEIR INTELLIGENCE STUNTED, and they appear never to have arisen from the most savage state of barbarism.” The Juvenile Instructor, Vol. 3, page 157)

Besides a black skin, Africans have a black heart, according to Mormon publication Times and Seasons, edited by future prophet John Taylor:

“The descendants of Ham, besides A BLACK SKIN which has ever been a curse that has followed an apostate of the holy priesthood, as well as a BLACK HEART, have been servants to both Shem and Japheth, and the ABOLITIONISTS ARE TRYING TO MAKE VOID THE CURSE OF GOD, BUT IT WILL REQUIRE MORE POWER THAN MAN POSSESSES TO COUNTERACT THE DECREES OF ETERNAL WISDOM.”
(Times and Seasons, Vol. 6, page 857)

Julieve your soooo wrong. Muslims believe he was a prophet.

I am getting quite a kick out of reading these messages and I wasn't going to comment but Julieve, you just put me over the edge! I am a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, more commonly known as Mormon. For your information, Mormon's absolutely, 100% believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. We don't view Him as simply a prophet but as the Savior of the world. We believe that he came to this earth to atone for my sins and for yours and for everyone else's and that he died on the cross. We believe that 3 days later he was resurrected. If you or anyone reading would like to know more about the Mormon faith please visit www.lds.org. And while I'm at it, for anyone else out there, Mormons do not practice or endorse plural marriage, and we do not hate homosexuals.

ajsmom25 ... how about "The Mark of Cain" please explain!!!

Thank you ajsmom25!!!!!!

Both Islam and the Mormons are gross off-shoots of Christianity. Christ is central in bringing the resurrection in both persuasions. From the Christian's perspective they are cults and of course only by comparison. So, ok...

Religion is an opiate. So are a lot of things. Snobbishness is a good indicator of the greater malady, 'I am so much better than you.' well, isn't that special? As Christ said or says to me. 'By their love you will know them.'

Julieve-

LDS people do indeed believe and consistantly teach that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and worship Him as such. Muslims believe He was a prophet. Jew believe he was a really good teacher.

ajsmom25, I have to question the Mormon church's involvement in the Prop 8 business in California (the bill to overturn the Supreme Court ruling that permitted gay marriage). It was most definitely anti-homosexual.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/nov/17/nation/na-mormons17

They funneled millions of dollars into the state to help get Prop 8 passed. There was a definite agenda being directed by the Mormon church. I absolutely believe that every person has the right to voice and vote their opinion. I also absolutely believe that no church should ever push or be involved in a political agenda. They in effect pushed to overturn a ruling because it was in contradiction to their religious beliefs which is essentially forcing their religious views on those who are not of that religion.

Perry: "I'm a good Christian."

Romney: "I'm a better Christian."

Bachmann: "I'm the best Christian."

Huntsman: "I mix science and Christianity for a great primary cocktail!"

The Great Hair Christian Crusaders of the Republican party. If hair was the only qualifier . . .

Religion is man attempts to reach God. What Christ' did was God's attempt to reach man. Christianity is not about a religion, though many have made it that, it is about following Christ, his example, his teachings, his ways. Part of this involves doing good, and acting in ways man would call morally good, but moral goodness is not what makes a Christian what he/she is -- confessing his/her sin to God, humbly asking forgiveness for that sin, and having faith (earnestly believing and acting upon belief) and proclaiming that Christ was and is God and that Christ's death on the cross can save him/her is what makes a person a Christian if you dig into Mormonism verY far you will find that although Mormonism and Christianity share a lot of common ground religiously, true followers are following significantly different beliefs. That doesn't mean we hate each other, but it does mean tha we have very different ideas of what God intended for us. Many people cannot reconcile in their minds that people can be different on very important matters and still not hate one another, but in fact truly love one another. We don't have to be totally polarized in our thinking, and we can disagree and still get along. It's not bigotry, it's healthy, unlike much of what I read above, which displays quite a lot of ignorance.

@Zorroacca...I wish I had an answer to your question but I'm not familiar with the writings you cited. All I know is that there are hundreds of thousands of black members of the church who receive all the blessings that all our church members of all races receive. If you really want an answer I would contact the church headquarters or visit the website and try running a search.

@DJ...you are misinformed. I do not live in California but all of my siblings did at the time of Prop 8. It is not an issue of anti-gay but an issue of the definition of marriage. We believe that marriage is between a man and a woman and is ordained of God. I personally believe that homosexual couples should have all the rights that married couples have but I do not agree that it should be defined as 'marriage.' Additionally, there are gay members of our church. Here is a quote given by a former Prophet and President of the Church, Gordon B. Hinckley

“People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are” (Gordon B. Hinckley, Ensign , Nov. 1998, 71)

If you are interested there is more information at www.lds.org. All I ask anyone out there is when inquiring about the beliefs of others please go directly to the source. We are all aware that the media is quick to spin stories and issues yet we are quick to believe the media when we want to. That is what happened in California during the Prop 8 campaign.

By far the biggest most successful cult in all of recorded history is the ole hallelujah christianity,

I wonder if Jesus knows how many politicians profess their loved of Him? What does it matter what ones religion is as long as a human acts with compassion, love, concern, sharing, giving, etc, etc, etc.

If Jesus were currently walking on Earth, he would denounce all of these "Christian candidates" as breaking one of the ten commandments. They worship as false god, power! So any one of them, who points their finger at they other, is not a Christian, he/she are only politicians.

ajsmom25, I am not misinformed. The church actively asked it's members to donate money and time to overturn the ruling. It was most definitely anti-homosexual. You may be comfortable stating you were only 'defending marriage', but did you ever stop to consider the impact on those your bill hurt the most? I don't think they would understand that fine line you've drawn in your mind when the end result is the same. The church does not own the word marriage, and what they have done is to enforce a state sponsored religious belief which is in direct violation of the separation of church and state. It is there for a reason, not to impinge on your right to practice but to protect the people from state sponsored religion. You even admit that this 'defense of marriage' as you put it was pushed for religious beliefs. It can't be more clear and more damaging to the homosexual men and woman of a state you don't even live in.

Tell me, in what direct way did a couple of men or women in California harm you by getting married by the state of California? I'm not talking about some nebulous 'talking point' but an actual direct impact on your right to practice your religion?

I found this part of your reply the most shocking: "If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church."

You do realize that it's very unlikely that these people directly impacted by your churches decision to meddle in politics are Mormon?

DJ -

I hate to think of what they would have done to Jesus. He was an anti-war socialist who gave away free food, healthcare, and housing. He also had dark skin if you believe the bible.

But didn't you know that the GOP is trying to re-write the Bible to make it more "conservative"? They can not accept a socialist Jesus, so they will just change it. You can expect to see the following...

1) Jesus will no longer give fish and bread to the hungry crowd, instead he will call them "lazy, deadbeats" and tell them to "get a job". He will then explain the evils of redistribution with a parable about studying Christianity to get into heaven, and not giving your knowledge to someone else who did not study it as hard.

2) Jesus will no longer heal the lepers unless they pay him. He will charge a nominal fee upfront, and if they are poor he will instruct his followers to "let them die." Furthermore, the story of the good Samaritan will be changed to the "Responsible Samaritan" who realizes it is not his "responsibility" to help someone else.

3) While on the cross, Jesus will no longer forgive the man being crucified next to him. Instead, Jesus will cheer as the man dies... but he will not be able to clap, obviously.

4) The phrase "Love thy neighbor" shall be changed to "Love thy Christian neighbor, and hate all others".

5) The phrase "Judge not" will be changed to "Judge often".

6) The story of the "rich man", where Jesus instructs him to give up all his money, shall be changed. The NEW "rich man" story will feature Jesus explaining that he deserves to keep all his money, because that is how one gets into heaven. Furthermore, the phrase "camel through the eye of a needle" shall be changed to "camel crossing the street".

7) The phrase "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" will be changed to "let all Christians cast stones at the unworthy, so they shall know the truth".

8) Instead of replacing the ear of the soldier, Jesus will not cut off the other ear and claim the soldier is "gay"

Personally, I am looking forward to this new "conservative" Bible... it sounds awesome.

Actually DJ, there are people in my own family that it has impacted. I have several gay cousins. And I'm not denying that the Church didn't actively involve themselves in the Proposition 8 issue because I know that they did.

You can disagree with me and spin what I'm trying to say if you want but for the church it is a matter of defending the sanctity and definition of marriage. Opposing gay marriage does not make the church anti-gay.

And no one in California impacted my right to practice my religion but prop 8 would've impacted my right to teach my children what marriage is. By re-defining marriage, my right to teach my children that marriage is between a man and a woman would've been taken away. As I stated earlier, I think gay couples should have all the same rights that married couples have, I just don't agree that marriage should be re-defined.

The church does not own the word marriage, and what they have done is to enforce a state sponsored religious belief which is in direct violation of the separation of church and state. It is there for a reason, not to impinge on your right to practice but to protect the people from state sponsored religion.

Buddy, marriage is historically natural if we go by all the linage lists both ancient and modern. Essentially, it's about children and procreation. Mothers and fathers. Who's rewriting the book here??

ajsmom25

By re-defining marriage, my right to teach my children that marriage is between a man and a woman would've been taken away.

Re-defining "marriage"... Ohhhhhh, you mean that social institution that was first recorded on the Code of Hammurabi in ancient Babylon, before Christianity ever exists? That marriage?

It is so nice to see you "defending" an ancient Babylonian law that has no relation with any modern day religion. The sixth Babylonian king, Hammurabi, would be so proud of you.

Now, do you raise your children in all 282 of the Babylonian laws found on this code? Or just the one about marriage?

ajsmom25, I in turn would have to remind you that marriage existed thousands of years before your religion. It exists on every continent on the earth and is celebrated through religion, personal ceremonies, legal contracts, verbal contracts, etc. Marriage wasn't even a religious ceremony until the 12th century. I assume that the folks using the word marriage before then were just leasing it until the church decided to show up an claim the word?

You are also ignoring the fact that these people are not Mormon. They do not have to follow your religion, learn your teachings, or anything of the sort. It also doesn't prevent you from teaching your children that marriage is between a man and a woman according to your religious beliefs or those of your church. No more so than you teach them about God, the bible, sin, etc. The existence of an atheist didn't suddenly negate your ability to teach your children to be Mormon did it? In what way is this different? Claiming it prevents you from teaching your children is a straw man argument with no real weight behind it but I suspect you know that.

Marriage is a civil contract, and the licenses issued to these folks are issued by the state, not by a church. You can get married all day in church and it will mean exactly nothing to the government. You cannot get a marriage license without the state however.

impacted my right to teach my children what marriage is

I should also add that your "right" to have children ends at the rights of someone else.

This means that you have the "right" to have children... but you DO NOT have the right to use those children as a weapon in a political fight to oppress someone else. You DO NOT have the right to use your offspring as an "excuse" to restrict the rights of others.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2011/10/westboro-church-uses-iphone-to-announce-steve-jobs-funeral-protest/

Oh the hypocrisy of it all.... Born Again Christians, Evangelical Christians, True Christians, Devout Christians, Christian Principles, Blah, Blah, Blah....More like Charlatans, buffoons, religious fanatics, or just plain loonies. All of these so called Christians have no problem packing heat--all of them will vehemently put up the 2nd Amendment in exercising their "Christian" right to bear arms. Show me a passage in any of the scriptures, the Bible or anywhere else where Christ carried any kind of weapon? All of these so called Christians are staunch supporters of the death penalty. Where is there any evidence of Christ campaigning to put anyone to death? All of these so called Christians label homosexuals as deviants and perverted sickos. Show me anywhere where Christ differentiated between classes of people? All of these so called Christians have no problem eliminating any Government assistance to the poor and the disabled. Christ's main theme was to help the poor. All of these so called Christians will not tolerate anyone who doesn't believe as they do. But they have no problem condemning the extremist Muslims and calling them fanatics because the Muslim extremist (just like them) will not tolerate anyone of any other faith—Kind of like the Pot calling the kettle black.

Christ was a man (got it!? A MAN!) of peace. He preached love, understanding, and tolerance. You hypocritical charlatans that continue to use Christ's name to justify your twisted beliefs are pathetic and perverted. If Christ was alive today, you so called Born Again Christians would be the first to label him a hippie. You're as close to Christ's principles as Hitler was to democratic principles.

This is why the GOP is doomed...they try to play up to the God vote, when it's PEOPLE that are voting. Yes, this is one nation under God, but everyone has the right to worship the Supreme Being their own way (or not). This is no longer the 19th century (Roman Catholicism was the whipping boy back in the day), and you're going to turn off a LOT of voters with those kind of "endorsements".

Give Romney some credit...he's trying. But if the GOP are willing to sacrifice him for the anointed-second-coming-Christ-lookalike candidate(s), then they will get what they deserve, and it probably won't be a win.

Guess it's a good thing I got off that ship of fools when I did! :P

Can it get any more bizarre?

There's quite a slug of statistics out there that shows the number of atheists to be growing rather rapidly. Some numbers put it at one in six.

I don't know whether they vote in great numbers, but I can tell you they can't be terribly comforted by the notion that the people who want to lead them believe in invisible people who live in the sky. I can tell you it is worrisome to hear them report they hear invisible people speak to them. It is bothersome that they tell us they live by the rules in the big wonderful book, when it is obvious they do not.

Amen.

Many people should stop talking about Christianity and started acting like one.

"Do we want a candidate who is a good, moral person, or one who is a born again follower of our Lord Jesus Christ?"

Good Moral Person, please. Much preferable to a bad lying unethical "born again" who pretends to follow "Lord Jesus Christ" and thinks that calling "Lord Lord" frees him of all sin and all responsibility for his crimes.

If Mormons still allow multiple wives, what does that do to the sanctity of traditional marriage between a man and a woman, is it more wives more sanctity or more wives less sanctity?

A little outdated, the Mormon (LDS) church gave up "plural marriage" over a century ago because it was politically inconvenient. Just like they gave up the "dark skin is a sign of sinful people" doctrine when the Civil Rights movement made that politically inconvenient. Now they even let the "dark skins" join their "Priesthood", and good and faithful "dark" mormons can even enter their temples!

Mormons may worship Jesus Christ, but they do not believe He is the Son of God. They believe He was only a prophet. Christians believe Jesus Christ is the "Only Begotten Son" of God. By that definition, Mormons are not "Christian."

You've confused Mormons with Muslims - well, the both begin with "M"! The Muslims are the ones that think Jesus Christ was a Prophet of Allah. The Mormons not only believe Jesus Christ is the literal "Son of God", but that Jesus is a separate person from His Father, thus avoiding that embarrassing "He made love to his mom so he is his own son" bit that other Christian denominations are stuck with.

ajsmom25, you were doing so well, until the very last line "and we do not hate homosexuals"! Actions speak louder than words, and the LDS monetary and promotional support of a proposition that explicitly denies legal rights to homosexuals clearly proves otherwise. I notice your church didn't even consider giving the same legal rights to "civil unions" as married couples enjoy, nor have they raised a peep of protest at athiests couples getting "God Ordained Holy Matrimony"! As for the "We'll accept them only if they give up their sex lives" notion, that isn't very friendly either, it's 1 of 2 reason I'm no longer a member and will never rejoin.

The other reason? Like other religions, it's as phony as a $3 bill.

I said before that the RETHUGs will not NOMINATE A MORMON (either of them). They won't nominate a BLACK either. This isn't NEWS - it's REALITY.

Unbelievable bigotry espoused by so-called "Christians". The most popular brand of "Christianity" in the US today bears no resemblance to the philosophy espoused by it's namesake.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; -- The Establishment Clause prohibits the federal, state or municipal establishment of a religion or other preference for one religion over another, non-religion over religion, or religion over non-religion.

I've had this discussion with social conservatives and they don't see it this way. They love to say we are a "Christian nation," because to date Christianity is the most prevalent faith in the US. And they think we just can't declare a particular Christian denomination as a State Church. But the Establishment Clause means no preference for one religion over another -- Christianity versus Judaism, Islam, etc. and it means within Christianity -- Protestant, Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, etc. And of course non-religion, which means the freedom from religion.

They also think their right to religion in the public square is trampled on because they are not able to have school prayer, peach politics from the pulpit, and other Separation of Church and State and IRS violations. The reality is anyone can stand on a soapbox on any corner of any street and preach, which some do, and they can pray all they want on their own, even bless their lunch at school, and no one will take those rights away. But what do you expect when people are indoctrinated from childhood and told they are persecuted victims of an evil secular government and atheist liberals?

Check out the International Coalition of Apostles who sponsored Perry's Prayer Meeting too. Teapublicans think the Occupy Wall Street movement is scary, these fundamentalist zealots are REALLY scary.

It's incredible that anyone could support Rick Perry. He is undoubtedly Bush Light. That's why Bush hates his guts. When your most obvious flaws are personified and inflated by an idiot that insists on following in your very foot-steps, you want nothing more than to push him off a steep cliff. Get away from me Dufus, before you expose who we both really are.

Rick Perry has half the intelligence of G.W. It's like splitting a single pea for supper. The hungriest man would walk away in disgust. George W. Bush wore his religion on his sleeve. Rick Perry wears it as an anchor tied to his neck. G.W. held his disdain for the little people in check as he did his best to slyly move Social Security into greedy Wall Street's hands. Rick Perry calls it a Ponzi scheme and openly calls for it's demise by "reform". G.W. willingly and often signed death warrants in a state that is very proud to lead the country in execution rates (to show how tough he was). Rick Perry proudly executes an inmate, despite very strong evidence that he was executing an innocent person, to show he was even tougher.

There are many common denominators between these two men. Both share false values and lack of intelligence that leaves a lot to be desired. Neither have ever experienced any degree of success in anything beyond political posturing. G.W. follows in the footsteps of the B-grade actor that stomped his Daddy in the GOP presidential primary race of 1980. Rick Perry follows in the footsteps of George W. Bush much to G.W.'s consternation.

What could it be to attract so many people to support these fools as leaders of the free world? Eureka, I think I have it. It's simple. Only in America could you find people so fascinated by the wild, wild west that they would choose an American cowboy to come their rescue. Only in America, could three grown men wearing cowboy costumes (like imaginative little boys) capture the hearts of an foolish electorate willing to vote against their own interests. The Reagan, Bush and Perry cowboys were never the heroes to save the day. They were the costumed puppets of robber barons focused only of robbing you and your children of the American dream. Take a good look around you and deny my words.

The biggest problem I have with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) is their opposition to marriage rights. This looney evangelical agrees with them on that issue. I disagree with both.

(for the record, I am not yet a supporter of any candidate)

I am Mormon and I don't really care what religion a political candidate professes to practice. No matter what any of you say, I don't think a candidate’s religious beliefs are relevant, just like it is irrelevant when applying for any other job. I personally don't consider myself democrat, republican or affiliated with any party. I place my vote with the candidate that has the best ideas to better our country and can give me reason to believe they are able and willing to do their best to follow through with those ideas.

Although the practice almost seems to be required of a political campaign, I really dislike our political candidates spending so much time bashing each other. All that leaves us with is trying to choose between the lesser of evils. I would much rather see candidates spend their time and money teaching us what their vision for our country is and the detailed plan they have to get us there, so that we can then choose between the greater of goods.

For those of you who would like to understand what Mormon's actually believe, go to www.mormon.org. You can even start an anonymous live chat session with an official representative of the church if you have questions you would like to ask or topics you would like to better understand.

Yeah, all they need to do (Democrats) is to sit and watch the Republicans undermine and destroy each other. Democracy at work, or is it evolution where only the strongest survive?

Come to think of it, that may work in the animal kingdom but within our species the strongest could well be the dumbest!!

Romney is enjoying the boost this news gives him. The pure morons who pretend they are Christians don't think he is one. Therefore, the majority of people with brains will want Romney over Perry. What's to be unhappy about?! :)

Do Christians have the right or ability to define themselves? I think yes. Most Christian denominations (I really can't think of one) say Mormons do not fit the definition. There are many areas of dispute in doctrine and theology between Mormons and Christians. Mormons do not acknowledge the Nicene or Apostle's Creed - fundamental confessions of faith that Christians believe.

I would turn the question around. I would ask Mormons: are Mormonism and Christianity essentially the same? I believe that if asked that question Mormons would say that Christianity is insufficient - hence the need for a "Restoration of the Gospel" (the Book of Mormon). If that is the case, then Mormonism and Christianity must differ quite seriously. If the two groups differ enough to require a "Restoration of the Gospel" they must not be the same.

However, when I looked at the Mormon website, what I read was almost exactly what Christians believed. The website spoke of how Joseph Smith received the fullness of truth, but it doesn't mention specifically what that fullness of truth is. The website feels like it is trying to highlight the similarities between mainstream Christians and Mormons. However, if there was indeed a need for a Restoration, shouldn't the website be addressing the differences as well?

That being said - nobody's religious beliefs, or lack thereof, should be an issue in an election in the United States of America.

All religions are cults, that is why the framers of the US Constitution ( who were in large part 'Deists' ) began the very first sentence of the very first amendment with, " Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,"......While you will find references to God in the declaration of Independence and on American currency, nowhere will you find references to Christ, Mohammad or any other supposedly divine entity........Albert Einstein (also a Deist) correctly said, "If there is an evil upon this earth it is religion, a political establishment which adheres to childish myths of demons, heros and magic, a political establishment which commands loyaly for fear of the otherwise.".........Einstein also said, " Due to all the complexity, interactivity, relevancy and interdependency I see within and all about, there is no doubt in my mind there is a more capable entity than we.".....(referring to god )

Wow, what a conundrum for the Religious Right!

They just discovered the Mitt is a Mormon. Can't vote for him, not a Christian (sorry Mormon apologists, you just can't print your own version of the bible and then add another book and go by that.)

Perry says he's a Christian, But he leaves a path of rotten fruit. (Ooooooo. That's GOTTA hurt!)

Cain is (shudder) shhh, don't tell anyone.... BLACK!

Ron Paul may have met Jesus, but the libertarians follow no one.

Palin made her money and gracelessly bowed out.

Huntsman believes in the S- word.

I guess that just leaves Bachmann! At least there's a candidate you can trust to get it right. Day 1 in office: "Give me the football, boys, I'm taken' out the Soviet Union!"

You just can't make this stuff up.

God, save us from your followers.

It's not that mormons aren't christians that get them in trouble with people, it's how they act. They will say or do anything in order to get what they want, always have, always will. I grew up with them. Does Mitt Romney seem like an cold, empty shell with no real understanding of his fellow man? That would be YES.

Don't get me wrong. If it weren't for the fortitude of my mormon ancestors, I wouldn't be here. I don't think they have NO place in society. I just don't want one to be my president. It's not that I hate them, I just understand them. It's really all about them.

If I had the opportunity to vote for an atheist, I would. An atheist candidate would have to spend some time talking about how to solve the problems of the country during their campaign. Unfortunately, in this land of religious freedom, it effectively required that one be Christian in order to seek high office. Being the right kind of Christian is helpful, but it is not necessarily crippling to be the wrong kind of Christian.

In response to the above: Mitt Romney does seem like a cold, empty shell who will do or say anything to become President. But it has nothing to do with him being Mormon. It has to do with him being a rich idiot who views the Presidency of this nation as being like a shiny, powerful sports car: it is something that he can buy to stroke his ego and make up for some of the shortcomings in his life.

I think this Pastor Rob Jeffress is a Loose Nut and a mad man, at best Romney is the best of them all. Jeffress has the rotten smell of the T-Nuts all over him and it stinks to high heaven. This guy is dancing with the devil. All these Bible thumping losers like Rob & Perry would destroy this country in a heart beat.

true - ROTFLMAO! what BS from you this is...

Liberals are the first to defend rights such as the right to practice religion -- to the point that religion should not be a criteria, any more than race, gender, etc. to become the POTUS.

Seems that it is libs who want to denigrate a candidates religion more so than conservatives. All these posts condemming religion, over 1000 posts, oh my!

This is way cool as well...

It should be about merit, also ethics, and personal belief is a factor in terms of loyalty to country.

If true how did the jr senator from illinois get elected? Weak in experience, questionable ethics as solyndra illustrates and loyalty to country is way open for interpretation.

As for sharia law, are you supporting it as being a seperate allowable law outside of the US constitution?

Man That pastor really pissed me off. I know i wont be voting for him........... Oh wait he isnt running..

A June Gallup poll found nearly 20 percent of Republicans and independents saying they would not support a Mormon for president – slightly lower than the 27 percent of Democrats saying the same.

Intolerance seems to be on both sides, no surprise reading the comments on this site.

The guy was a loon just like the guy protesting veterans' funerals, or Wright. You can find these types in every party who will spout this type of idiocy on cue for the cameras. Go ahead and pretend that they represent everyone on the other side if it makes you feel morally superior. I know that is a key desire of the left, anyone not falling in line must be evil, can't just be a different view of how the economy works etc.

The Pastor is a "Wacko" and a religious extremists. This guy sold his soul to the Perry camp for $$$$$$$$$. Rob failed as a Pastor when he supported a nut like Perry.

Jesus was a Jew: born, bred, lived and died a Jew. Does that make him a bad person?

Calling yourself a Christian does not mean much. Not being a Christian does not make anyone less of a human being or an unworthy person.

And what ever happened to the notion of separation of church and state? Why is a presidential candidate's purported religious beliefs even a consideration?

american -- You say there are 1000 posts yet you single mine out because that's what a troll does.

Suffice it to say that Romney is being attacked for his religion from other conservatives/Christians within his own Teapublican Party, not from Democrats. Cain and other right-wingers like Bachmann and their false claims about Sharia Law are conservatives/Christians attacking Muslims, while at the same time Perry has a Prayer Meeting sponsored by the International Coalition of Apostles who want to turn our nation into a Christian theocracy.

Despite all the ugliness from the Crusades to the Inquisition to the Puritans to Prohibition, and all the wars in Ireland, or India and Pakistan, or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, liberals have and will always stand up for all rights for everyone including the right for religious freedom. What progressives won't do is support bigotry, infrigement upon Separation of Church and State, or religious superstition becoming public policy.

Many Americans are very tired of the right-wing Haters who hate everyone even their own. So go troll somewhere else american.

This pastor was not a bigot. He stated that he would support a muslim republican over a 'so-called' christian democrat. He is just a regular republican. Unfortunately - if Jesus were a democrat - these fanatics would not support him.

Perry gets support from a crazy Pastor, this guy was talking his trash on CNN - Did you see his eyes, they looked very crazy. I think this dude is a little Weird. I have a high respect for "Pastors", but not this guy. Sorry but this guy is out of line. By the way, Mormons are Christians and good people. Romney is the best of them all.

The born again crowd believes that they are God's people

Someone ought to tell them God already picked the Jews for that post.

I don't give a damn what religion a candidate is. I just want someone EXPERIENCED enough to run the country. Religion is a myth created when we were primitives, worshiping fire, or the sun, or multiple nature gods. I would think (hope?) we have outgrown the need by now, but it seems some (most?) of us still need the crutch to face reality. The reality is we're on our own, no superpowered supreme being gonna come and lead us to salvation. I'd rather have a president who thinks on his own, not influenced by an imaginary history book (Bible, Torah, or Koran, all variations of the same crap). I want logic over unmitigated bullcrap. We need a freakin' leader who can lead, not bow down to whomever he has to to get elected. I haven't seen any yet from either party, and I doubt I will.

Within all religions there are always some who swear beyond a doubt they have a personal relationship with God. If any indeed do, I can't understand why one or more of them don't have God grant everyone the answer to which religion, or religions are valid and which are not. If they are such Buddies, why won't God favor them with that information? Moses is said to have come down with stone tablets, uh-oh, forgot. Moses told the people God told him what to chisel. Could ah been a trick there. All religious denominations are sects. Least that's what they all say about each other, course, often its behind each others back. Nearly all the US support for Israel is religious based. The Christians claim they have to watch after the Israeli's until Christ comes back and then they will convert them Jews. They say this is Biblical. It's really confusing. If there really is a God, and He is a He, I wonder if He understands all this religious scatter? Now, if there is, and He really is a She, a lot of people are screwed.

Dear pastor: People like you should stop calling other black sheep. Pleas keep and maintain your sermon on the pulpit and avoid seeding hatred to other peoples believes. Wheter they are Buddist, Catholics, Mormon, Baptist, Presbiterian or Jehowah,Muslim who cares. You are just a earthlink, one of the flock, ain't any better than the rest. To me you sounded as a wacko that created a cult.

Though most of the founding fathers were Christians, I am quite sure they did not make being a Christian a prerequisite to running for President. I think they just wanted someone in office who would uphold and defend the Constitution. As a follower of Christ, I would like someone who would uphold and defend the Constitution, and I also think it would be great if they truly did follow Christ and His ways (and not just say they were a "Christian".) But if I could only get the former, I'd be happy with that. There have been a lot of Presidents in my lifetime say that they are "Christians" and I have no ability to know their heart, for I am not their judge. However, in my lifetime, I have yet to see a President uphold and defend the Constitution 100% of the time. The only politician that I have yet to see come close is Ron Paul.

In the bible I read, it portrays Jesus, the son of God, who was a Jew, as the most loving man that ever walked this earth. He indeed was a friend to the brokenhearted, lost, morally corrupt, weak, sick, poor and hungry. And He worked tirelessly to meet their needs, both spiritual and physical. (And btw, He was probably not light or dark skinned, but somewhere in the middle.)

Here's the part that I'm not sure any one of us, whether Democrat/Republican/Other, Christian/non-Christian/other, really gets ~ Jesus wanted His followers, individually and collectively, to take care of other people like He did. He set the PERFECT example of love and deeds, and of speaking truth, even when it was not well-received, and yet I see few who truly follow it. For that reason (not following His example) so-called "Christians" are actually hurting the cause of Christ and abusing His Great Name.

He did not come to radically change the government. He was neither trying to legislate morality nor begin a welfare program. He said Himself that He came to seek and save the lost. And He just simply wanted His followers to do what He did. He always showed the Love of God, in the things He did and the things He said. That does not mean that He approved of what everyone did ~ He had the highest standards of anyone that has ever lived ~ but it did mean that He showed a better way and He did it in love.

It would be better for all of us to think before we speak, and then think, think, think some more before we speak... because once our words are out there, they are impossible to take back. That's what I love about Jesus, He never had to take anything back. As for this pastor, before the mob crucifies him, maybe we should decide who should cast the first stone...

Does this baptist loon think he is helping Perry or just trying to sabotage perry's chances? I've reported this jerks church to American United cause he is preaching politics. I suggest everyone else do the same.

this sob's church should lose it tax exempt status.

I live here in Dallas, think next sunday and go to that church and laugh out loud when he starts, get up and walk out. Let him know i'm all for his church losing it's tax exempt. That should get a raise out of those racist baptist.

Looks like somone is having a 'Rev. Wright' moment.

Right, Jo Jo??

Wow, no jo, did you just equate Mormonism with Islam-ism? I don't think Romney supporters will appreciate that.

(just giving you a hard time, old girl.)

"Islam-ism?

Yes- that's what is known as an 'ism'- ism.

I think. Hell, I don't know.....

"Islam-ism?

spell check it Spanky, that's what I did.

Too funny, no joe.

Although I'll grant you that Perry is not responsible.

Polls closed at 9pm in NY in 1980. I voted after work right around 845pm and at around 905pm I was on line at the Bagel store when the news channel playing on the radio called the race or Reagan. I KNEW Jimmy was going to lose. Yeah, I voted for him, but I was sure he was gone, gone, gone...

If you want to see more crazy talk, Google Bryan Fischer.

There are a lot of Mormons who identify with, or are Teabaggers. It's amazing how Mormons are blind to the bigotry in their own Republican Party, and that goes for Herman Cain too. Even women in the GOP/TP, as well as working class rednecks, it's amazing they vote against their own interests.

Come to the light fellow citizens, vote for Democrats.

The worst part of that, dangerfield, is that polls were still open when the race was called.

Bad form on the part of the media.

The reason I'd like to hear Amy's perspective is is is one of the few people I know who think Carter was a good president.

Although, since you voted for him DF, I suppose you must have too.

I had and interesting talk with a friend today. He is a libbie, although as he gets more and more successful, he gets less and less excited by the whole "fair Share" thing-y.

He told me he has never understood why ignorant, poor conservatives always vote against their own interests. Then he says "but you know what, at this time I am now voting against my own interests. I know I am, but I probably still will anyway."

He sounded really sad about it, like his dog just died.

Me, I am very shallow, not a deep thinker, so it's easy for my. I always vote for my self interests.

And anyway - given the debt explosion/cost of future debt service, it might be time to start to vote for our children's interests, cause at this rate they ain't got a shot.

Those were the days, when every station wanted to be first to call the winner...That one was an easy call by election day...

NoJoe I think we get the media we deserve. Of course I only watch the news on PBS and read, so I'm probably not qualified to comment...

No, I voted for the lesser of two perceived evils. I couldn't see wasting my vote on Anderson (Anyone even remember him?) and back then I thought Reagan was bat sh!t crazy and quite possibly made from wood,

Perry thought Allah meant everybody, as in "you Allah coming over later for BBQ".

(article) The Texas governor, according to campaign spokesman Mark Miner, does not believe Mormonism is a cult.

* * *

Another Day, Another Hatchet Job on Rick Perry.

Do you ever tire of lies and slander? Do you even read the articles BEFORE spouting off?

Sooooooooooooo Liberals, "guilty until proven innocent", is that the way it works? Therefore, if an Imam in Washington praises Obama, then that must mean Obama is Muslim ??? Or if "7 un-named witnesses from the Washington Times witnessed Obama being born in Kenya, then that means he is Kenyan"? Really ???

Read the ACTUAL WORDS next time, and note, what Rick Perry SAID and what others said.

We get this story,

But not this one

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/05/obama_supporters_call_black_republican_an_uncle_tom_ngger.html

Gee, First Read, why is one newsworthy, but not the other.

Both involve supporters of presidential candidates.

Oh! Wait! I know!

Obama did not denounce his supporters!

Must mean he agrees with them, right? Right?

Amazing how the words just roll off their tongues only they don't match the idea. Nice to see you here Vermon Girl.

My father used to call it "Verbal Diarrhea caused by Mental Constipation"

failure to engage BRAIN before putting MOUTH in gear...

I'm no lawyer, but I believe the first part you quoted was from the pastor that introduced Perry, Jeffries, and the second quote was from the Perry camp, trying to do damage control and distance themselves from the first quote.

Vermont Girl:

On the surface it seems as if the discussion is "Christian" vs. "non-Christian"; however, you do not know the nastiness of the Left because if you truly understand, you would see as clearly as sap from maple trees becomes syrup, that the whole objective of this little game is to bad mouth Rick Perry, drag his good name through the mud, and make it appear as if the WORDS SPOKEN BY OTHERS were his.

I'm quite sure people are civil in Vermont. Sadly, not enough people from there blog here.

Greg I'll not disagree with you that things get nasty from both the left/right, it's embarassing. But if the "nastiness from the left" in this case is merely reporting what was said by the pastor and how the Perry camp responded, I think you should work on a finding a better example. I didn't read about anyone pouncing on Perry and his relationship to this pastor (a la Jeremiah Wright), all I read was Perry preemptively distancing himself from Jeffries after he crossed a line with his comments on Mormonism. It makes sense, after all, since you don't see Perry publicly delegitimizing Romney's faith, or calling him out at the debates. But point taken, you got your political sniping in (with a ponderous metaphor to boot :) ).

If anything, I would expect Romney to respond with some snarky comment conflating Perry's/Jeffries' views. At this point I think the Democrats are mostly content to stay out of the Republican primary fray, they are doing pretty good at tearing each other up.

I'm wondering which is worse to them-----President Obama being falsely accused of being Muslim or Gov. Romney being accurately identified as a Mormon. How will they choose?

I don't get what is so wrong with being LDS (Mormon)? Once upon a time they didn't want a Catholic for President and Kennedy was elected. And yes LDS members do believe in Jesus Christ. I thought anyone that believed in Jesus was considered a Christian?

It's what you believe about Him that makes the difference. Mormons believe He was only a prophet. Christians believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God!

Julieve your wrong. LDS members believe he is the son of God.

Have you talked to a mormon lately?

And the Republican race to the bottom continues.

Mormons believe He was only a prophet. Christians believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God!

You've confused Mormons with Muslims. The Muslims are the ones that think Jesus Christ was a Prophet of Allah. The Mormons not only believe Jesus Christ is the literal "Son of God", but that Jesus is a separate person from His Father, thus avoiding that embarrassing "He impregnated his mom so he is his own son and his own father" bit that some other Christian denominations are stuck with.

Julieve, you are seriously misinformed.

mormon.org/jesus-christ

"Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of God. He is our Redeemer."

Christians believe that Jesus WAS God. God incarnate. John 1:1 - "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

Then John 1:14 - "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

The "Word" John is writing about is clearly Jesus. Mormons do not believe Jesus is God. There are real significant differences between the two - I think Mormons would agree. They do not believe themselves to be another Christian denomination but the one true Church.

Additionally I believe that Christians have the right to define themselves - if they say Mormons don't fit the definition isn't that kind of hard to argue against? If you define Christianity as "being a follower of Christ" without clarifying what that actually means, then it really means nothing. What does it mean to be a follower? Who is Jesus? These are subjects that Christians and Mormons disagree on.

HChris- Mormons do indeed believe Jesus is God, as part of the Godhead.

geekfish - I'm sorry but they do not, at least, not in the same way that Christians do. The Mormon definition of Godhead is non-trinitarian. In other words, Mormons believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are separate beings. Therefore, if they are separate beings and are all gods, Mormons are not monotheistic. This leads to all kinds of theological problems. The first commandment states: "I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me." How does Mormonism reconcile this? If Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are separate but all gods, which do we worship?

I'm not going to call Mormonism a "cult" but there is no question that much of what they believe about the nature of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is considered heresy by Christians. There really is no way around that.

In fairness in any religion there's things that could easily be found amusing/absurd by non-believers.

Do you have any clue as to where many of the stories/chapters/paragraphs in the bible came from? Probably not, but you have probably just heard them so many times, you don't even stop to think about them. Is the Joe Smith story (which I find pretty freaking odd) any worse than a talking burning bush, people living 900 years, people being made from dust, 40 days and 40 nights of rain and a flooded Earth (but where did all that water come from/go?), a boat with every species on board, or all humanity originating from 2 people (talk about shallow gene pool!). See, if you just think about it a little, they all sound like quackery of the highest order, or stories made up by children.

I love the ignorance of people when they do not even know what they are talking about. Why don't you learn a little about another religion before you say what you "think" you know.

Wow a wack job just because he (Joseph Smith) had a different belief and went out looking for something else rather then to give in at the time to follow into all the over night religions that were popping up left and right at the time? The prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is no different then what the Pope is to Catholics.

They need to take the non-profit status away from this minister. He stated that he was giving "a sermon" on Sunday about 4 questions you should ask yourself before voting for President.

They should take the non-profit status from any church that doesnt' stay the heck out of politics. I've about had it with these pastors, priests, and the pope. Keep your mouth shut and tend to your flock - help the homeless, the ill, and the afflicted. God (and all the other names we call him) is rolling his eyeballs around at us mortals thinking we know it all.

All religions start as cults, it's only after their charismatic cult leaders die that they start shedding their more cultish aspects and start going more mainstream. A few more decades, and the Mormons won't be considered any more cultish than Lutherans, Baptists, or Catholics.

Well, it is unfortunate that nothing you said in your post was actually true.

if it's a few people they are a deluded CULT - if it's a few million people they are a RELIGION...

yes, it is a cult but you cannot tell them that, at least at the beginning of your witness. they make view that as offensive. "a soft answer turneth away wrath."

Tom- no, Rick Perry is a 'washed-up' Christian.

Correction above - Rick Perry gave 1/1000th of his income to Charity. :)

Drive-by.. yes... I think you're right.

Great post Anna Molly! Thank you for mentioning tossing out the money lenders!

"We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo by Walt Kelly

Prery is a 4th Class TWIT - he can't even make it to 1st Class

Romney gives 10% of his income to the church, as all good mormons do. That's not a religion, that's a business.

It's a commandment from God to pay tithing moron...

" Did he like it?"

I'm betting........yes.

Your point is exactly why liberals tend to poke fun at some of these so-called pastors. Many liberals are as religious as are conservatives, they just don't get into condemning those who aren't or those whose faiths are different.

I don't claim to be an expert on Evangelicals(strict Biblical interpretation), but this has been their stance for a long time in regards to Mormons. It will be interesting to see if Romney is nominated that this form of religious bigotry is shed like when Southern Christians voted for JFK (Roman Catholic) a member of the "whore of Rome religion".

And that is why Romney won't get the nomination, and why Perry can't win the general. EPIC FAIL lol

If Romney adheres to the tenets of Mormanism as "Closely" as the Kennedy's have adhered to Catholicism everyone will just last. The Kennedy's: rapists, murderers, adulterers, etc...

I doubt you will find the same kind of skeletons in Romney's closet...

just polygamists when you go back about 4 generations...

So canary, are you saying that is a skeleton in Romney's closet? I hope not. Four generations is at least a lifetime away...I agree with geekfish. None of the bad skeletons in Romney's closet.

Romney will have skeletons in his closet, alright. But I'm pretty sure they're buried deep.

the questions was skeletons. It's familial. Since I (me,MYSELF) would never CONSIDER voting for him .(or ANY of the "other" RETHUG TWITS) it's MOOT.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father but by me.

This is the litmus test for being a Christian, not organized religion, but whether or not you have petitioned God, through Jesus, for forgiveness of sins.

I didn't know a cult could be a 170 yrs old? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is 170 this year. And if you haven't notice a lot of other religions have copied some of the idealism and practices of the LDS church. And as far as 10% tithing I believe it's the only church that collects the actual 10% from the members and not what is just put into a basket of what ever they like to put in. And this money is actually used for the members of the church and other people in need that are not members. They don't line their pockets everyone voluntaries; no on is paid for holding a position in the church not even the Prophet.

Actually, one of the more admirable traits of the Mormons is they don't pass a "collection plate" at their church services, no money grubbing there. Instead, they do it quietly by requesting 10% of members income behind closed doors, and requesting that members "fast" for one meal each month and donate that meal would have cost. Also, they have no paid clergy, all sermons and religious ceremonies are done by volunteers, so most of the tithes collected go to the Church headquarters, making it an immensely wealthy religion. Of course, some of that immense wealth always seems to find its way into the accounts of certain high church officials...

the aim of ANY religion is to increase the herd. More adherents=more income for the church.

dangerfield-

I'm supposed to be surprised at the ramblings of an evangelical, fundamentalist Christian pastor supporting Rick Perry for President?

Please.

I promise to make you aware of every bigoted anti-Mormon comment I see from a First Read regular blogger, regardless of ideology.

One of them has already referred to Romney as "soulless".

I guess it all depends on the context, eh df?

I would say that if it is sauce for the goose...

And we both know that you were expecting the first salvo to come from the other direction, whoever fired it.

And I would imagine that you just described about 20-25% of Gov. Perry's supporters, those who are haven't gone to Cain that is...

Yet another reason to prefer Romney over Perry, dangerfield.

And there's more than a year to go 'til Election Day here at First Read.

Let's see what's said about Mitt Romney, and by who...

Between then and now.

Let's see what's said about Mitt Romney, and by who...

Between then and now.

----------------------------------------------------------

OK Let's...

MB-

Until he can poll over 40% in his own party, Mitt's religion will be a non-issue. Perry is a fringe candidate, so I don't really compare them. Looking at his slide in the public polls, imagine the panic in the Perry camp at his "empty elevator shaft" free-fall in his own polling. It is only his desperation, (and don't think this wasn't either directed or condoned by his operatives if not by Perry himself.) that is the 'genesis" of this "bigotry".

I'm not saying he won't be the nominee MB, but 3 out of four Republicans polled and all of the Republicans/conservatives/independents I know want anyone, or just about anyone other than Mitt at this point. But there is no way that it will be Gov. Perry. It's the strangest republican dynamic maybe in my lifetime.

dangerfield-

You're onto something about Perry. His debate performance has been shocking bad. Conservative voter focus groups have had an overwhelmingly negative reaction to him. That was my reaction as well.

Romney is far from a perfect candidate, but if nominated, he won't be running against one, either. I suppose it's still possible that one of the remaining GOP candidates will find a path to the nomination, but I think that's increasingly less likely. The Christian right isn't ever going to be delighted with Romney, but any of the remaining candidates that might delight them (Santorum, Bachmann) won't be the nominee.

Just curious...assuming you believe that Romney is the most electable GOP candidate in the general election against President Obama, and that ends up being the November, 2012 match-up:

Who wins?

Well, do you think the "media" will favor the incumbent or the challenger? They tend to choose a narrative and stick to it like a pit bull on your leg. Then there is the question of whether or not the peripherals of the economy begin to shift and how the next round of deficit battles further diminishes congress. Finally there is the question of who best fires up their base and romances independent voters. I suspect the President will win the former and Romney the latter.

I see a Republican Senate and House but right now, still a democrat in the White House. Mitt just doesn't get the electorate "fired up" let alone ready to go...

Of course, I picked the Tampa Bay Rays to win it all...

there isn't ANY of the RETHUG "candidates" worth the powder to blow them to (mythical) hell let alone the effort to bring them back.

df-

The media will largely assume its default position. That is left-of-center and favors President Obama.

As far as the economy goes, with the election little more than a year out, here's the deal:

In order to bring unemployment down by one percentage point over a year's time, the economy must be creating about 200,000 jobs per month; last month, 103,000 jobs were created, 57,000 jobs the month before. In fact, for all of 2011 to date, I believe only two months showed job creation numbers above 200,000.

Unless the economy suddenly roars to life, advantage Romney.

As you know, David Brooks addressed the competence vs excitement issue with regard to Romney. In any event, if the economy deteriorates further to any significant degree (double-dip, for example) between now and Election Day 2012, that issue is likely off the table.

Should that be the case, the electorate will probably act out of sheer desperation. There won't be much hope in the next election cycle...but, there will be change.

It's simply astonishing how different things looked in January, 2009.

I recall a lot of historical discussions regarding JFK being a roman catholic and that by extension it would be the pope leading America.

Best as I have seen, this didn't happen. Today, many want to take religion out of the equation. Unfortunately for them, religion requires one to develop faith and faith is what is required to see people through dark times, regardless of any particular religious belief.

So far I have seen no evidence of any candidate saying to anyone that everyone needs to convert to my religious belief system. However I have seen many posters try to sell others on it being so.

Like an earlier poster said in 9.1 about the litmus test, john 14.6

Hey *mt-512899* what cult don't you belong too???...Just wondering!!!

Tom which part of the New Testament. The part that says we can all be gods like Jesus Christ and rule over our own planet. Or the part that there are space ships waiting to take us there. Because the Mormons tell us that is what is true. Tom, I suggest you study the New Testament then Mormon theology before making those kind of statements.

Ray, show in the new testament where it says people can't become like Jesus (mormons never say above or even equal to Jesus)...be happy to show you where it says people (not just mormons) can receive all the father has. Feel free also to look up and ponder the new testament phrase "joint-heir with Christ".

Where on earth (or any other planet) did you get the silly thought that mormons believe there are space ships waiting to take mormons there??? What planet did you come from?

Ray, I suggest you check your own sources before throwing stones at and questioning Tom.

They also believe stuff like Native Americans are a lost wandering tribe of Jews... oh boy.

Tom, if you are serious, please ask your pastor or minister to suggest some books on this subject. I did this about 10 years ago--can't now recall title or author of book I read, but it went point by point explaining how the Mormon theology differs from the "traditional" Christian. It's much more extensive than you think, and was a real eye-opener for me.

I'd just like to note that the last word in this article is misspelled - significant in that it says a lot about the choice of the subject and care in reporting it.

Mormons believe that men can become "gods" if they meet certain criteria. Christianity is a Mono-theistic religion, Mormonism is by their own words poly-theistic. Another major difference!

Jesus Christ was the son of God. Yet, Jesus Christ also had the power to overcome death and also endure the atonement. He was also a God, the son of our Heavenly Father. All from the Bible. You certainly cannot really claim a mono-theistic religion from the Bible.

Tom which part of the New Testament. The part that says we can all be gods like Jesus Christ and rule over our own planet. Or the part that there are space ships waiting to take us there.

Half right. Mormons believe in "Eternal Progression", that if you become righteous enough, eventually you will get to be God over your own world. But the "Spaceships" bit? Not at all, they think they'll just fly there in spirit, no ship required. Besides, the whole spaceship/UFO bit came along a full century later, and had nothing to do with the Mormon church.

Hey Ray, the part where it says that people were baptized for the dead, and the part that says that there are 3 heavens, and the part that says that Jesus Christ has a father and he is not the same being as Jesus Christ, and the part that says, you are saved after enduring to the end, you mean that part???

with the religious psychobabble flowing like bull@!$%#, I'm glad this is the internet and I don't need hip boots to stay CLEAN.

What about Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientologists, Christian Scientists, Unitarians, and the WorldWide Church of God (to name just a few)? What's different about walking into an Assemblies of God church than walking into a United Pentecostal church? Why not just chuck all of this and study to become a Jedi? I'll tell you why. Because Somebody would start with:

Fact! Darth Vader is Not Luke's father.

Fact! Fresh fruit only grows on supermarket stands.

Fact! I have all the facts, and only me.

And on, and on, and on....what a merry go round you find yourself on. And before you know it, you're surrounded by people with masks holding flamthrowers and dart guns with vats of poison.

Honestly, Baptist tradition is much easier then mormonology. Just watch Doctrines & Covenants round table lecture on the BYU channel, and ask yourself if Mitt Romney believes all this crap than when he talks about taking regulations off of business, what exactly is he referring to, what exactly is his worldview.

Non-christian? You're probably right. But Michele Bachmann was incredibly popular just a few months ago, and Herman Cain is on par with Romney these days. Yeah, I think they're scary people with scary ideas, but I'm not sure you can really call the GOP establishment sexist or racist. Just homophobic and religiously intolerant.

The phenomenon of majority populations using prominent members of their minority communities for the purpose of guile, misrepresentation, and to subvert support from or control of that very population is replete in history .

Pontius pilate of the Roman providence of Judaea, and Marshall Petain of Vichy France easily come to mind. In 1852 Harriet Beecher Stowe wrote of the phenomenon during slavery in her famous novel, 'Uncle Tom's Cabin'. A variation of the phenomenon surfaced during passenger aircraft hijackings in the sixties, it is known as the Stockholm syndrome.

Today Micheal Steel, Hermain Cain, Allen West and to some degree Marco Rubio, are simply the latest manifestations of this behavior. I would call, without a shadow of a doubt, that the current teapublican culture is not only homophobic and religiously intolerant, but also is sexist and racist.

I don't think it's a good thing but it is amusing to watch them out Jesus and God each other.

That's a good way of putting it Jody! I was thinking along the lines that "God loves you but He loves me more!"

"We have met the enemy and he is us!" Pogo by Walt Kelly

there are also nuts who still believe we evolved from one celled animals even though most of the major statistician PHD's in the US say it is statistical an impossible theory.

That's not a question I would really ask a statistician, Ray, so much as a biologist, even though I doubt what you said is even true in the first place.

We've already proven that the 2nd chromosome in human cells is two primate chormosomes that fused together through genetic mutation. We witness evolution occuring before our very eyes and within our lifetimes with migrating organisms. We can date the age of the universe (14 billion years) based on the fact that we can only see 14 billion light years away.

You don't have to give up your beliefs, but I think it's time we stopped pretending this all happened because God wiggled his nose.

So passiveobserver- you're prepared to state that 83% of the US population is wrong?? that's bold!

Even by your own statement- Man is rather small minded :"We can date the age of the universe (14 billion years) based on the fact that we can only see 14 billion light years away." Because we can only see that far- we know it ends? really? and what's on the other side of that end?

I believe that the New Age 21st century enlightened thinking is just a way to assuage guilt and make people feel better about their own guilt- rather than face it become a better person.

and if man is small minded- why would even attempt to dismiss God?

If your best defense of evolution is saying that the majority of Americans don't believe in it, I don't really have words for you. If majority opinion ruled what was factually correct, the statistic that only about 33% of the world's population is Christian---and shrinking rapidly in the West---must be troubling for you indeed.

And the fact that you asked "what's on the other side of that end" sort of demonstrates to me that one of the major reasons that you may not believe in astronomic theory is that you don't understand it. That's like asking "what's north of the North Pole?" By definition, if something doesn't exist, there can't be anything "in" it.

The universe is larger than what we can see because it is expanding, which we know because superclusters of galaxies are moving apart, rapidly, like chocolate chips would move apart in an expanding cake when you bake it. If light that traveled from 14 billion light years away is just reaching us now, that means light has only existed for about 14 billion years. Did you know that when you look at the stars, you're actually looking back through time? Light can only travel about 9.6 trillion kilometers in a year.

The science exists. With a very basic physics background, it's actually not that complex. People are just reluctant to accept it because it challenges what we've believed for centuries. I'm not saying this disproves the existence of a higher power, but it certainly makes the "we're made out of dirt" theory look a little dated,

I don't really believe the "dirt" "theory"- I believe it to be true, as fact. If someone can say we were evolved from some slime in the water- I can safely say with a straight face that man was made from dirt.

So far- Darwin's THEORY is just that, a theory. Not fact. Science just can't seem to connect the dots. Why? Because I believe that the world isn't quite as young as other religious people do. I really don't know how long the creation took. Scripture says 6 days- but what if time wasn't even a thought at that point? How long was it then? Thousands of years? Millions or Billions of years? How many creatures came and went before us? And what if this world was pieced together from other world long since dead? What lived on those worlds before we lived here?

Remember- scripture is just a journal of the relationship between man and God. God didn't write it- Moses and later, the Apostles did. It is how they interpreted the relationships- and time, which is where the 6 days comes from. God works on his own timetable (if any) and there are just way too many questions that don't have answers yet for me to just abandon all reason either way.

and yes- I do realize I am looking into the past when I see the stars. That I learned in science- which to this day still fascinates me! A person can be religious and scientific at the same time. As I have said before- science proves Gods existence in my opinion, but that may just be a theory... ; )

*independent thinking atheist* and *sreeeeming lib* only a fool would say in his or her heart that there is no God. Thank God that he loves the atheist too, just as much as he does all other sinners. Just keep on living, you are going to meet God personally. You see, ever tongue is going to confess that Jesus is Lord, ever knee is going to bow and every eye will see Him. TYJ!!! Not believing in God won't change that. Not a sermon, just a stating the facts.

I guess that's the difference between believers and non-believers. You have the ability to build your entire belief system on a single book of laws and parables; something written thousands of years ago by men we know very little about, and nothing but their promise that this holy book, out of the hundreds that have been written across the globe, is the only one that was really divinely inspired. Even though your dirt and my primordial soup are on equal grounds when it comes to strict deductive evidence, you are confident enough to call yours a "fact" and mine a "theory". The Aztecs wrote that we are made from white corn and a god's blood. Isn't that even more believable than the biblical version? At least there's something organic involved.

Whereas I base my beliefs on something with the capacity for infinite self-improvement. A theory is only a theory in science if it has a large body of evidence to back it up, conceivably could be falsified but never is. The more we refine our knowledge of the universe, the more accurate our theories become, and there are millions of high-thinking minds to challenge and refine our understanding.

Honestly, I respect you for having a strong system of beliefs. If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything, as they say. I'm just saying, the ancient Greeks decided long ago that the natural, observable explanation (for why the wind blows, for why there are rainbows in the sky) will always make more sense than the magical explanation, and that's the way I've come to view phenomenae like why our genome is practically the same as an ape's, et al.

83% of the US population is too fu cking stupid to examine their nose in a mirror. I'm no "deluded believer".

There is ZERO substantiation for the mythical sky daddy, and yet, somehow, thru massive indoctrination of children essentially from BIRTH, religion manages to keep on keeping on. ANYONE with 1/2 a brain can examine the premise and see the utter HYPE and exaggeration as well. Religion has a single purpose - increase the HERD. More adherents=more money for the CHURCH (and bottom line, it's ALL ABOUT MONEY.) They cling to the book of dogmatic assertions if it will somehow thru majikal power bring them untold rewards.

there are also nuts who still believe we evolved from one celled animals even though most of the major statistician PHD's in the US say it is statistical an impossible theory.

Just goes to show what can happen when someone goes way outside their area of expertise. Those statisticians got it wrong, they're assuming only one "trial" at a time happening sequentially, when there is an entire ocean of molecules on this world allowing several trillion trillion "trials" to happen simultaneously. Then consider that this is just one world among billions in this galaxy, and billions of galaxies, and we quickly get not just 1 in a trillion trilllion chances, but more like a trillion trillion trillion in a trillion trillion chances - not just possible but highly probable!

But it gets worse - the inept statisticians are assuming atoms combining totally at random - and they don't, they only combine in certain ways, greatly reducing the number of possible combinations that can form. Moreover, there is more than one "right" way to make the basic molecules of life - there are hundreds of known variations of Hemoglobin and Chlorophyll (Hemoglobin and Chlorophyll are structurally similar, btw), several known variations of insulin, and so on. That, too, greatly increases the number of possibilities of combinations forming life.

The Theory of Evolution doesn't deny the existence of God, it simply makes God unnecessary.

I guess that's where some people have a tendency to not understand Christians- I actually know it in my heart- not because I believe in a book or two. They look at the scriptures and say: "I'm supposed to believe THAT?" But they do not look into the soul for the answers.

But what about evolution? Or the Big Bang Theory? Are they not just theories put in a book? and MANY people believe them to be true- though they just can't be proved. But people just KNOW they are true. Why?

I think it comes down to the character of the person and what they will, as you say, fall for. I am a convert to the Church- but I was tasked to make sure I understood and "knew in my heart if these things were true." I did just that and it took a long time- but I can say, yes- I believe it to be so, and that God lives and does know each and every one of us and the content of our hearts. There was no brainwashing of any kind and each week we meet and learn of the things of Christ, and everyone is invited to see what we learn each week.

To Canary- then you clearly do not understand religion. It's not about the money but the relationship between me & God. If you choose not to have a relationship- that's your choice- but don't criticize others for doing so.

well, geek - like I've said numerous times - YOU are entitled to be as deluded as you WISH. I am entitled to keep pointing and shouting "BUT HE'S NAKED DAMMIT NAKED!!" I ACCEPT reality. You apparently try to AVOID it. Your choice - but you will ultimately wind up just as DEAD as I will (and STAY THAT WAY, TOO)

What is interesting Canary is that when we die we will find out who is correct and who is wrong in their beliefs. If I'm wrong to believe in Christ, to believe the teachings of Christ (I am a "Mormon") I loose nothing, but if I'm correct then you loose everything you could have gained.

I would rather be in my shoes, not yours because you don't know what you have lost until that day.

To call someone that believes in Christ as deluded, please. That is one thing the anti-Christs do, just try to tear people down - that is so sad.

May the Lord bless you.

cewclw,

That's an old, old, old theological term called Pascal's Wager. "If I believe in God and I'm right, I go to heaven. If I'm wrong, nothing happens. So I'll believe in God."

Basically, it means your beliefs are based on a purely selfish, self-preservationist philosophy. I know many people of faith who would condemn you for what you just said (and if there's one thing people of faith have nailed over the years, it's condemning others).

Ill second ya TheUnWoman

I'm just a godless, immoral atheist too

immoral...amoral...iceberg...goldberg...what's the difference? (why are atheists considered immoral?)

because a lot of religious types seem to believe that not believing in their god means the non-believer is some sort of hedonistic serial killer (and the pope did try to link atheism to the Nazis... which I do find funny. Looks like the ex-hitler youth forgot that nazi Germany was a religious state that drew upon a mix of catholicism and paganism, both religions that believe in god(s). also, a lot of nazi paraphernalia declared things like "god is with us").

I assure you, religious types, that we atheists are a lot like you. In fact, I'm probably the type of person a lot of you strive to be: I don't drink alcohol, I don't smoke, I don't use drugs (legal or illegal), I don't cheat on my taxes, and I don't sleep around. I don't break the law, and it's not because I believe some invisible old dude with the mind of a sadistic 5 year old having a constant temper-tantrum is gonna throw me in a fire pit- I don't break the law because I know I wouldn't like to be robbed/shot/stabbed/beaten/molested/raped/tortured (you get the picture), so I shouldn't do that crap to other people.

Why would this be pathetic to report on? Wasn't Rev Wright's tirades newsworthy? Candidates alliances with clergy will always be newsworthy, for as long as religion is used to gather votes.

I think it is a relevant story because the conservatives are the ones who brought religion into politics; now they can't even agree on whether or not one's religion is really a religion.

amused, well said.

Right, try to find Obama's baptismal certificate...Can't, he was never baptised as a Christian. Look it up.

1st;tt----Do you mean Baptized as a Christian? I think that you'd better get an adult to look that up for you first. You don't seem to bright insofar as absorbing information very fast.

This fair and balanced approach from Fox with Jeffries as the focus is much more enlightened, isn't it. Notice how objective the moderator and Jeffries are?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s51S0yfDDOY

it is a facotr for evangelicals and the country is founded on religious principles not to spearate the 2 but so governemt would not tell people which denomination to go to by sate laws. But the main factor here is that guys like romney are very smart and study hard, and citizens are left to free will and they can decide and choose , well, nothing if they so choose and America is the place to be for choosing nothing, it is your right. but how can a guy like romney with all his intelliegence and knowledge miss the idea that the Bible is saying somehting other what jesus is saying and people take it or leave it as Jesus saying and being killed for saying he is God and that is the main point , there is no other way to interpret the Bible and romney should realize this. But becasue of freedom of religion and that right and the founders leaving the selfless religious nation to have its freedom as it so chooses , they left it open and like PERRY said that is ok and the way it should be and so the pastor becasue it is and men and women can choose to beleive whatever and religion can offer some good behavior and guidelines but evangelical or born again Chrsitians simply cannot compromise with it, becasue we are all sinners and are only saved by grace and all have turned from God, works dont get you there. and relgion is about works so born again want people saved and realize some true liberty without religious overtones and rules no one can live up to.

Again, I suggest that the ability to post comments should be limited to literate contributors.

Referring to all media as being in a vast conspiracy with liberals, except one, which would be FOX, is insane. It is also like believing that all 97 percent of climatologists are in league with one another in creating a hoax. That is a sure sign that you've been brain washed by a cult.

Evangelicalism = Islamic Fascism!

Cjh37, nice post.

Cjh37 thank you for your statement. My son should be recieving his paper next year to serve. Currently he's attending the Y in Provo.

The worst thing that happened to religion is TV. Talk about instant fame - and the media does it every time. Certainly they could have ignored the rantings of this pastor. And certainly, the pastor could have googled what a Mormon believes in? And certainly the media could have done more. Talk about POWER over us - it's the media. And while I'm at it - I'm always interested to know why the far right posts on this liberal web site?

cjh37- why does it seem we (and I'm with you) keep posting the facts only to be dismissed?

Nice post- keeping it simple

One must be a moral person to be a born again follower of Jesus Christ. The two should be synonymous

They are not. To begin with, there are many moral people who are not "Christian", even some that have never heard of Christ.

Someone claiming to be a "Born Agan follower of Jesus Christ" should be a moral person, but too often they are not. Some have got the notion that since they are "born again" that their ticket to heaven is punched and they can commit any sin they want, all is forgiven. They are wrong, of course, if they were truly "Born Again of the Spirit" they would no longer desire sin, since they are desiring sin, they are deceiving themselves and haven't been "Born Again". Any JudeoChristian can tell you who the master of lies and deception is.

A catholic may not be able to overturn Roe v Wade but Romney stated that was the republicans goal. They want to do it by making a fetus a person the instant of conception and killing it would be murder. With that law you could be arrested for having a miscarriage just to make sure you didn't commit negligence. If they sent you to prison, it could be involuntary manslaughter for miscarriages.

Just more republican smaller government. Let us control your lives and call it freedom.

Thats the way its worked up to now. But I wouldn't take it for granted that it will continue if these kind of Christians grow in strength, my friend.

It has always confused me........anti-abortionists want abortion to be criminalized because the fetus is a "person".........so why don't they have funerals every time there is a miscarriage or even if their period is 2 weeks late? Might have been a baby!!

So far, medical science has not determined WHEN life enters the fetus. BTW, the Baptist church has waged very organized campaigns aginst the Mormon church for the past 25 years. I know that because I am a former Baptist.

BTW, the Baptist church has waged very organized campaigns aginst the Mormon church for the past 25 years

How very "Christian" of them... What exactly are they afraid of?

Val, Yes, of course.

Now that the Supreme has declared corporations persons, I am beginning to understand why the right wing fights so hard to protect them and preserve their lives and fortunes........