Look out beloooooow!!!!

US stock markets were down 2-3% yesterday. Major Asian stock markets closed down 2-5% today. European markets are down 4-5% so far today. US stock market futures show the markets opening down another 2-3% today. I hope nobody is planning to retire anytime soon on their 401(k) and IRA funds.

The Slow-bama recovery continues, and may even be sliding into the Obama double dip recession. Yeah, yeah, I already know all the lefty liberals will scream “It’s STILL all GWB’s fault!!!” But, even Dems are now beginning to admit that the voters are not buying that same old, same old, lame excuse. Unlike 2008, Barry now has a record he has to run on and its results so far ain’t pretty. And all Dems up for election are going to have to own Barry’s record.

From Politico (just for you, Nasty!!):

Don't bet the House on Dems
By: Dan Hirschhorn
September 22, 2011 04:45 AM EDT

No one’s ready to write off the House yet.

But in the wake of two recent special election defeats and President Barack Obama’s declining poll ratings, Democrats are increasingly pessimistic about their prospects of winning back control in 2012.

As recently as May, when the GOP plan to overhaul Medicare looked to be a silver bullet after a dramatic special election victory, Democrats held a glimmer of hope that the House might be in play.

Now, resigned to the likelihood that the president will be a down-ballot drag in many races and absent signs of an electoral wave on the horizon, Democrats are scaling back their expectations.

Interviews with more than two dozen operatives and House members in both parties reveal that the cautious optimism of the spring has given way to a more grim view of the hurdles facing Democrats in 2012 — an unpopular president on the ballot; scores of vulnerable Republican incumbents bolstered by redistricting; free-spending, GOP-allied independent groups that will outpace their newer Democratic counterparts; and long-standing historical election trends.

While the idea of recapturing the House in 2012 has always been something of a long shot in the wake of the massive losses House Democrats suffered in 2010, the consensus is that the odds have never been longer.

We Are All Troy Davis

I am very distraught that the Gov of Georgia did nothing while his state murdered a likely innocent person.

How does this all tie in into us being Troy Davis?

Davis is a Black man convicted of killing a white police officer—and in Southern and Northern states alike, this fact alone trumped all others.

In this respect with a sadistic, religious, zealot, like Gov Rick Perry running for Prez, it feeds right into their satisfaction some one will save White people from dangerous Black people.

I was also very annoyed that the Georgia media described Troy Davis’ demeanor as defiant. Is that code for uppity? I also thought the McPhail family members who got macabre satisfaction from the execution and smiled and hugged each other because they thought justice was severed was very annoying.

I understand their pain due to their loss. But, with the preponderance of doubt I can’t fathom how they feel justice was served?

It is incumbent upon them and the state of Georgia to fulfill Troy Davis’ last dying wish. They must find the real killer; otherwise this flawed system of justice will fail us all.

Bless Troy Davis’ soul for being so merciful

Obama in 2012.

Here we go Again!

GOP leaders can't muster votes to pass measure that's key to keeping government going!

Have not these greedy bas-turds learned their lesson with the debt ceiling debacle?

John Boehnor is inept and unfit to be a leader.

I cannot fathom how the tea-nuts will hold the nation hostage just to embarrass the President.

They need to learn the meaning of one nation.

Just an observation today:

It seems many on the right, including many of our posters on here are convinced Obama is ‘toast’, and remind us so each day. I have to ask- if he’s toast, why all the time and energy expended on trying to beat him down more, and never any time and energy spent on promoting whoever it is on the campaign trail for the right that is going to save the country and ‘reverse’ all the ‘damage’ Obama has done to the country?

For instance, just yesterday, I posted this, referring to the right wing posters that appear on each thread, every day, like clock-work:

“….let's keep changing the subject to whatever makes Obama and Democrats look less than stellar, because God knows, we don't have anything good to offer about the Right or the many scewball candidates THEY have in this thing, or how many GOOD things the GOP and the right have done for the country lately".

What was the response? “DBO wears high-heels” or “maybe DBO can come to my place, and file a motion of some sort” or some other equally escapist nonsense.

C’mon, JAS, NoJo, Sparkie, Mr Bill, JoeAlbany, etc.etc. What you all got to say about YOUR crew?? I mean, they are so much better that Obama, right? Should be easy as pie. C’mon, spill it, kids.

(watch this space for soon-to-follow items about Solydnra, QE3, Teleprompters, etc.)

Nice to see the Fed and Bernanke admit the truth. ObamaNomics has failed, and will continue to fail for years to come. The Fed is trying to help by further reducing interest rates for homes by doing the old-fashion Twist, ie., sell their short bonds and buy long term bonds to drive interest rates down on mortgages. At least the Fed is working on the major reason for the snails pace economy, the housing market. Obama doesn't seem to think the housing market problems even exist.

The other real problem is employment of the 25 million that want full time employment. The Fed can't do anything about that problem as businesses cannot have 5-10 plans to build and expand while Obama and his administration keep threatening more and more regulation, more taxes, and more barriers to hiring people when the businesses don't know how much they are the hook for those employee health care costs. In that sense the Fed is powerless. Businesses are the proven enemy, and the cash-cow, to the Obama administration.

Good try though Bernanke, at least someone is trying. Too bad a lower interest rate on a house people cannot already afford won't really help that many of them.

Why are they bothering with another "debate"?

There have been two, so now the participants can 'scrub' their comments from the first two, so as to soften the responses those comments elicited.

What a charrade.

FR: *** Bridging the gap? In addition to tonight’s debate, the other political story is Obama’s visit to Cincinnati, OH -- and to a bridge linking the home states of House Speaker John Boehner and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell. "

So Libs, is it "crumbling schools and failing infrastructure" or is it "declining schools and inferior infrastructure"?

It's hard to keep your rhetoric straight some times.

DBO...I'd be willing to say "Obama is toast" in a 2012 election context if we had a better group of candidates. I think that if we had a "perfect candidate", that candidate would likely be ahead of President Obama pretty substantially in the polls right now. However, in most polls, "Generic Republican" fares much better vs. the President than any of the top candidates. That tells me that we have a fairly weak group of GOP candidates right now and that will likely keep any race close. Not to mention of course that we are still a lifetime away from the 2012 election (in the political sense).

Bottom line from my point of view: If the economy continues to sputter through the election next year, President Obama is likely to lose his re-election bid. However, the choice of the GOP candidate could go a long way in determining whether that actually happens and how close that election would be.

I am very distraught that the Gov of Georgia did nothing while his state murdered a likely innocent person.

Me too Bev... me too!

Since when did 'beyond a reasonable doubt' cease to exist?

What a travesty...

"by the time I feed my family, I have maybe $400,000 left over.

Poor baby Teapublican. Too bad only 99% of Americans would be happy to be in his position, he's so under appreciated. That quote says it all, doesn't it? The GOPTP is the voice ONLY of the FYIGM crowd.

Pass the American Jobs Act now.

Write the Buffett Rule into law.

DBO: C’mon, JAS, NoJo, Sparkie, Mr Bill, JoeAlbany, etc.etc. What you all got to say about YOUR crew??

Fair enough question Buzz.

Not the strongest set of candidates, but the winner will be good enough to defeat Obama. Any one of them will be much more willing to partner with businesses of the country rather than be constantly critical of businesses. Obama is straight up anti-business, except for Green businesses, and we see how well that is working out.

Obama has something in 2012 that he did not have in 2008. A record. And not a good one.

Such a tough night last night for everybody. Rev. Al and the NAACP, our country needs you now more than ever. It is time we stopped the hate and seriously begin looking at ourselves. Rev. Al will do as he has always done his entire life, and that is to attempt to bring injustices to our attention.

The NAACP as well, who have done monumental work throughout the decades. There is Attorney Barry Scheck. Amnesty International. And the man who was interviewed last night talking about the toll executions have taken on those who must carry them out. On the toll it has taken on him. So so sad.

What are WE doing ourselves? When are we as Americans going to stop the revenge killing?

The black community through the centuries have been the ones who have a reason to be bitter. I often wonder what stories have been passed on down to them through the years about their ancestors. About racism. About slavery. I sometimes wonder why they aren’t angrier. After all, not much has changed really if you listen to what's out there.

The only anger we ever seen in this country comes from the white community. For no good reason. All they ever do is complain. What are they doing to make this country better? Kissing up to the rich and voting for people who don’t give a **** about them or anybody actually.

Or just blaming President Obama for every GD thing. It's easy. And it's cowardly. No hard work necessary. Just complain (whine) 24/7 without actually doing anything themselves to make a difference.

I attempt to listen to African Americans carefully and I hear that all they want is for America to become a just country. They aren't interested in revenge. What they are interested in is calling attention to the unfairness and certainly barbaric nature of capital punishment.

They can teach us a lot. They have something very positive and necessary to offer our country, if people would pay attention to what they’re saying.

These are the Americans we should listen to. If we care at all.

Rachel Maddow reported on these two stories last night:

"As Texas prepares to execute one of his father's killers, Ross Byrd hopes the state shows the man the mercy his father, James Byrd Jr., never got when he was dragged behind a truck to his death.

"You can't fight murder with murder," Ross Byrd, 32, told Reuters late Tuesday, the night before Wednesday's scheduled execution of Lawrence Russell Brewer for one of the most notorious hate crimes in modern times. Life in prison would have been fine. I know he can't hurt my daddy anymore. I wish the state would take in mind that this isn't what we want."

Brewer is scheduled to die by lethal injection after 6 p.m. local time in Huntsville, Texas.

The family of James Craig Anderson are making a stand to change history in the deep south. While the death penalty laws were used on blacks who killed whites, they’d rather the court not seek it in this case to eliminate it altogether:

The family of an African-American man who died after allegedly being beaten by a group of white teens and run over by a truck is asking state and federal officials not to seek the death penalty in the case.

Relatives of James Craig Anderson, who died shortly after receiving his injuries on June 26, sent a letter with their request to the prosecutor in the case, Hinds County District Attorney Robert Shuler Smith.

“We ask that you not seek the death penalty for anyone involved in James’ murder,” the letter states; the letter is signed by Barbara Anderson Young, James Craig Anderson’s sister who is in charge of, and speaks for, his estate.

The letter states that the family is opposed to the death penalty partly for religious convictions.

“Our opposition to the death penalty is deeply rooted in our religious faith, a faith that was central in James’ life as well,” the letter states. But the family goes on to explain that there is another reason for their opposition, one that is tied to Mississippi’s racial past.

“We also oppose the death penalty because it historically has been used in Mississippi and the South primarily against people of color for killing whites,” the letter states. “Executing James’ killers will not help to balance the scales. But sparing them may help to spark a dialogue that one day will lead to the elimination of capital punishment.

Beverly,

Spot on. I grapple with the death penalty, in general. And specifically when there is ANY hint of doubt. What purpose is served? I have heard every argument from - he must be guilty of SOMETHING so it's okay. Or, obtaining a conviction PROVES he was guilty. There have been 273 cases of exoneration in the United States. These convictions were overturned on forensic evidence - a MUCH more reliable type of evidence than an eyewitness account. How many innocent people were put to death where forensic science was NOT available? Or in many cases, refused or denied? If it is even one, then it is too many.

I remember in a civics class in high school our teacher 'staged' a crime and we all 'witnessed' it. We then each made a written 'statement' of what we saw. Out of a class of 20 students, no two descriptions matched. Each person filters their senses based on a pre-disposed or 'expected' outcome. When something throws that outcome, relying on all senses to capture timing, size, colors, etc. - well, it is inconsistent and often errant.

With that said, the REAL issue with this case is that the family of the slain officer stated they wanted closure. I'm sorry; but an execution by error is not justice. And it doesn't provide closure. Forgiveness is not for the accused, it is for the victim. Waiting 22 years to seek closure is damaging on its face. In my opinion, it will not bring peace. And what if he didn't do it? Where is the peace for that act?

As I stated yesterday, this is a complicated issue. I did not grapple with the execution of Timothy McVeigh. The preponderance of evidence, coupled with his smug confession and later explanations - well, that just wasn't this.

I don't know...But I've always wondered how civilized it is to 'teach' people that killing is wrong - by killing them. Again, I admit to being conflicted on this.

So Libs, is it "crumbling schools and failing infrastructure" or is it "declining schools and inferior infrastructure"?

All of the above...and thanks for pointing out the cost to society of decades trying to "drown (government) in a bathtub." The second class society of King Grover and his GOPTP subjects is near enough to see clearly now.

“There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.” ― Howard Zinn

Speaking of Barry Sheck & his Innocence Project - I happened to catch the movie 'Conviction' last weekend.

If you haven't already seen it - I would highly recommend it!

Fantastic movie of a man wrongly accused and losing 20 years of his life!

Bev -

I share your sadness and disappointment this morning, over the murder of Troy Davis.

"Georgia Rep. John Lewis perhaps put it best. "Do not weep for Troy Anthony Davis, he will be with God," Lewis tweeted as his state committed murder, "weep for Georgia and for our Nation. Capital punishment is barbaric."
http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/09/22-0

drive-by-observer

Why are they bothering with another "debate"?

Really, they can't stop the merry-go-round because they are so dizzy.

So the Tea-nuts will reinforce their macabre delight to destroy the middle class by making crazy arguments to bash President Obama and unions; focus on shutting down the government (AGAIN); driving down wages; and put America up for sale to the plutocrats.

Bevvy: I am very distraught that the Gov of Georgia did nothing while his state murdered a likely innocent person.

Georgia

Does my state have the death penalty?
Yes, Georgia has executed a total of 39 people since 1976.

What is my governor's position on the death penalty?
The Governor does not have authority over the death penalty. In keeping with the state constitution, all appeals or requests for clemency are made by the Georgia Board of Pardons and Parole.

Source: http://deadlinethemovie.com/state/GA/index.php

There goes Pat from Boston again with the kind of post that leaves me believing she was planted here as a parody of a naieve, bleeding heart, mindless liberal. And good ole Beverly. Never fails to entertain us with her nasty, senseless drivel. Troy Davis was guilty and deserved the fate that his MAJORITY BLACK JURY gave him. The POS had 22 years to try and prove the MAJORITY BLACK JURY was wrong in convicting him. He couldn't. He's dead. Good riddance. Do you people even know the name of the cop he murdered? Mark McPhail.

Richard-348249

Bev -

I share your sadness and disappointment this morning, over the murder of Troy Davis.

Richard, I was impressed with Troy Davis' incredible mercy.

I thought with all the global attention Troy Davis’ life would have been spared. One thing for sure, we are all Troy Davis now. As Rev Dr MLK said in his “Letter from a Birmingham Jail”–Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere”!

We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html

I believe, there is a killer amongst us. As I stated earlier, with the preponderance of doubt it is incumbent upon the state of Georgia to fulfill Troy Davis’ last dying wish.

They must find the real killer. In a civilized nation we must do more to rid ourselves of this punishment.

Feisty, Beverly, Pat Boston, Clara. You've said it well. I could not put my thoughts about Troy Davis's executiion into words this morning. Add the GOPTP debate audience applause at Rick Perry's executive record; the gleeful "yes" answer to the questions about allowing a hypothetical man without health insurance die and the only thoughts that comes to mind is inhumane, barbaric, blood thirsty, and the Romans feeding the Christians to the lions for sport because they could.

Richard...thanks for sharing Rep John Lewis's comment, he is right.

Damage, Try reading what I wrote. It's about capital punishment. And the need to get rid of it.

Good riddance? How does it affect your life if someone is sentenced to life or given the death penalty? It doesn't affect your life one iota.

As a country, we can do better. 275 convictions in this country over turned because of DNA. 275.

Something is terribly wrong. And your answer is good riddance?

Ask Perry about the innocent man he put to death, who was found to be in all liklihood, innocent. And he loses zero sleep over his decision. Zero sleep.

Are we, as a society, made safer if the legal standard of "beyond reasonable doubt" is not met and we execute someone anyway?

I believe that the death penalty is warranted for certain crimes, and certainly the killing of a police officer is one of those crimes.

But, you better be awfully sure that you are executing the right man or woman. This is one error that can't be fixed.

I have a dreadful feeling that the wrong man died for the crime.

Joe in Albany -- I believe it was the "significant downside risk" globally that is/has crashed the markets the past few days.

JoAnna1 -- Most people will not forget why or who caused the housing crisis.

As for the debate tonight it would be interesting to see someone question Romney and Perry on the RGA donation dust-up back in 2006. It seems they were friends back then and things were not done properly. There is room here for someone to step up or in.....

Feisty,

One in six people in this country are living in poverty.......Children are going to bed hungry and in many cases the only meal they receive is at school......People are being thrown out of their homes in record numbers......40 million people have no health care insurance.......14 million are looking for a full time JOB! ....

Perfect example of how incompetent Obama is ..... how liberal big government statism is such a failure.

Too bad America's equivelent to Eva Braun's mindless bunker devotion will never get it.

BTW - Michelle seems to think the big problem is that American kids are fat.

Is this another example of Obama having everything backwards?

Or, have the talking points changed? Are we going to be saved from Michelle's Move it, lets move or just gag me iniative?

Oh yea .... thanks for the reminder about how LESS AMERICANS HAVE INSURANCE AFTER OBAMACARE PASSED THAN BEFORE IT PASSED.

Sorry Pat. "In all likelihood" doesn't cut it in the real world. Perry sleeps at night knowing that the peole put to death were guilty of the crimes of which they were convicted. I'm sure you don't like the idea that "in all likelihood" Iraq had WMDs, do you?

Bev The Buffoon--Are you aware that Try Davis shot another person that night before killed Ofc McPhail? Have you even bothered to look that deep into things or are you only interested in what your lib media sources tell you. Yeah. Thought so.

If I understand your argument, we can execute people with the thought "oh hecky darn, if he didn't REALLY do this crime, the execution if fine because he might have done something else?

That would be okay if it were YOUR family member facing execution?

Damage, actually "in all likelihood" should cut it in the real world when it comes to executions. Perry is no good.

And Bev the Buffoon?

You're not worth correspondening with.

Bev,

We Are All Troy Davis ...... Davis is a Black man convicted of killing a white police officer—and in Southern and Northern states alike, this fact alone trumped all others.

In this respect with a sadistic, religious, zealot, like Gov Rick Perry running for Prez, it feeds right into their satisfaction some one will save White people from dangerous Black people.

Sadistic, religious, zealot and present governor of Texas, Rick Perry / State of Texas .... executed a man last night also.

A white guy who killed a black man.

So ...... you got acknowledgement / apology coming, or are you just a clueless bigot?

Bev wrote:

We are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality, tied in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly.

That was wonderfully stated, Bev. I had been thinking also of the words of the great English poet and philosopher, John Donne:

No man is an island
entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a
promontory were, as
well as a manor of thy friends or of thine
own were;
any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And
therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

We will never know whether Troy Davis was in fact innocent of the crime. Had he been granted a new trial, it is possible that he would not hve been convicted again, however. Jurors from his original trial lately stated that had they known then what has come out since, they would not have voted to convict in the first place.

Although there are truly horrendous crimes committed by conscienceless, sometime simply evil, people, retribution by death sentence does not ultimately "compensate" for the sufferings of their victims. Nothing can.

For decades, repeated studies have shown that the death penalty is a poor deterrent to crime. Prisoners once sentenced to death are even a greater danger while held awaiting execution - after all, what more of a punishment can they face?

Most advanced nations have long since abandoned the barbarity of judicial execution. It stains the society and institutionalizes inhumanity. America long ago abandoned its once-admired principles of prison, which attempted to "reform" criminals through rehabilitation, in favor of pure retribution in an increasingly-harsh environment.

Ultimately, not merely should capital punishment be abolished across the land, but a comprehensive re-evaluation of sentencing standards and prison operations is an important action. While certainly the disturebed and violent inmates require a different class of treatment, there are hundreds of thousands now behind bars, many for relatively minor crimes, who deserve more intelligent, humane and just treatment.

Davis' guilt WAS proven beyond a reasonable doubt in his trial where the MAJORITY BLACK JURY convicted him. Why don't you people save your breath and your energy for someone who might actually be innocent. That would be a change.

Pat from Boston reminds me of one of those white-guilt liberals who's so screwed up she could be getting raped by three black guys and say "it's ok...I deserve it! Don't forget to steal my puse on your way out!"

Ok John B help me out my man:

If I take say $3 million and invest in California tax free municipal bonds, I will earned a nice amount of interest each year.

Now you appear to be a big old fan of the :Buffett Rule" a rule that of course does not exist, and has not been drafted, but go aead and tell me how much taxes I will pay on my municipal bond investment now v. if your beloved mythical bill was actually passes.

So John? Now I have represented people in the past that only invest in tax free muni binds - it is there investment strategy, see if you can tell me the amount of taxable income they have?

So again - you really ought to think things through buddy. THinkProress, and Obama are making you like a tad ignorant.

Buffett is just messing with Obama - he clearly understands. It is also why despite owing $ billion in taxes, he ain't exactly stepping up to pay.

Oh and how about this QE3? These guys really are super smart, right John B?

Davis was convicted, according to the appropriate legal standard, by a jury of his peers.

Not years later people change their stories. Except at the time they were under oath. Now they are not.

So were they lying then, under oath, in the court, or now, in the media, under the public glare?

Just like Byrd, and just like the home invaders will be.

No one seems to be saying Byrd's death was inappropriate, why?

Both were convicted by a jury.

Feisty

I would certainly like to know where this term "fair share" comes from. The rich are nnot paying their "fair share" is the talking point, but what exactly IS fair?

It is a well know fact that the rich pay close to the entire amount of the money recieved for this federal government to spend on failed stimulus and pet projects. Yes, there are a lot of people hurting and many poor. But they do not pay anything, and receive all the benefits already being funded by the rich. At this point, what benefits are the rich receiveing for this funding that is not being exceeded in benefits the poor, unemployed, and hurting are receiving?

And the added revenue wont even put a dent in the issue, as even with the added revenue (if it actually created any by this new tax) , we would still be borrowing a large percentage of every dollar we spend.

So taxing the rich more is no solution. Even if it didnt kill jobs (which it most certainly would, as rich people who run businesses just pass the costs along), it would not help reduce our growing debt burden.

I say let everyone pay their "fair share". It is time we end the policies that allow for lower income earners to get a check from the government as a "tax refund" that is everything they paid in plus about $4,000 or $5,000. It is a ruse to call this a "tax refund" as it is a welfare payment, paid by the rich people. Distribution of wealth comes to mind. If these poeple are employed, let them pay 1%. Would this not be their "fair share"?

When close to 50% of the population pays ZERO, and a goodportion of those get a "refund" that exceeds what they paid in over the year, I fail to see how we can point a finger at the folks who DO pay and claim they are not paying their "fair share".

This rhetoric of the rich not paying their "fair share" and the current scenario of the tax structure with the rich paying for all the benefits all enjoy, bring me to this:

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

Sounds like our current structure and the rhetoric chants of the rich not paying their fair share.

You want fair share? Make everyone pay. You know, "have some skin in the game". Right now the rich are paying their "Unfair share" and you want to make it even more unfair than it is right now.

Gee Spanks, it took an entire 24hrs for you to come up with the special case that would justify the unjustifiable. Yes, tax free government bonds have been that way for a long time. How many millionaires and billionaires make the majority of their income from tax free bonds? Not many, because they pay a low interest rate. That's not what we're talking about here and you know it. We're talking about Carried Interest payments to hedge fund managers and capital gains on stocks, primarily, which now makes up the majority of many CEO wages.

So when it comes to Buffett's statement, there are two categories: the rich and the really rich. And the evidence tends to point to the conclusion that the really rich pay less in taxes as a percentage of income then their merely well-to-do counterparts -- if their income comes primarily from investments. Overall, we rate Buffett's statement True.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/aug/18/warren-buffett/warren-buffett-says-super-rich-pay-lower-taxes-oth/

The 400 highest-earning taxpayers in the U.S. reported a record $105 billion in total adjusted gross income in 2006, but they paid just $18 billion in tax, new Internal Revenue Service figures show. That works out to an average federal income tax bite of 17%--the lowest rate paid by the richest 400 during the 15-year period covered by the IRS statistics. The average federal tax bite on the top 400 was 30% in 1995 and 23% in 2002.

http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/29/irs-high-income-personal-finance-taxes_0129_wealthy_americans.html

That information isn't from ThinkProgress, it's from Forbes. Are they business-oriented enough for you?

Pass the American Jobs Act now.

Write the Buffett Rule into tax law.

D123, wow...what a horrible comment. Your heart has to be stone cold to even think of that, let alone put it in writing. Is this what conservative christian family values has turned into?

New Dawn

I wonder who goes home satisfied and believe justice has been served because someone was executed for though, an unacceptable crime for no life deserved to be snuffed out of them.

we should cherish lives, preserve lives and not kill lives then pat ourselves on the back or hand for doing the easiest thing, destroy. no crime should go unpunished under the laws of the states but guys, not by death because we're not PERFECT.

dsdsherm, they get to live in the most powerful nation on earth, the most advanced civilization ever known, the largest economy in existence. They get to live in a place where they're safe to walk the streets, where the people around them are well educated and competent for the most part.

Your case that the rich don't get benefits from the government consistent with their taxes is the ultimate expression of the FYIGM mentality that epitomizes modern Conservatism. If you want to live in the society I've described above then creating and maintaining that society has cost. If it's more important that no one take anything from you there are places where they can do that too. Places where there is very little government so very little tax. Somalia comes to mind.

But the wealthy don't live there, do they? So our modern society must have some value after all.

Pen-24: One does wonder if life in prison is the more difficult of punishments.

redhead and the rest of the libs: Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? Redhead had a list in her first post. But her solution? More of what got us to this mess in the first place! Most people want real jobs and the economy booming. Yet, libs want more government to take care of those who are poor or out of work. The rest of the world is running away from the big nanny state. Yet, Obama and the libs are running towards it. It's never worked, but they seem to think that this time it will. The like to pat themselves on the back for their "good intentions." Too bad taht they have no interest in actual results. So far, every lib program has cost the taxpayers a fortune and made things worst for those they were trying to help. Oh well, that is the ignorance that must be fought every day. Fortunately, the tide has changed and people are waking up to the disaster that is liberalism economics, aka, socialism.

"Not the strongest set of candidates, but the winner will be good enough to defeat Obama. Any one of them will be much more willing to partner with businesses of the country..."

That's it then? They would 'partner with business'? Not a bad thing, but seems that there are a lot of other isses, too.

"Oh and how about this QE3? These guys really are super smart, right John B?"

Thanks Sparkie. Boy, can I call 'em, or what?

John,

Yes, we live in a great country, with many benefits. ALL o these benefits being supplied y the rich right now.

I just think it right that the other portion of the poulation that enjoys the benefits of our country's greatness should also help pay for it.

Your argument of my orignal point makes no sense. It is currently an unfair system where the rich already pay for all these benefits. And all the benefits the poor receive ALSO come form these rich folks.

Do not the folks that pay NOTHING for these benefits also enjoy every benefit the rich do and more?

THAT is my point. The rich currently foot the entire bill, and you want more. I want something, ANYTHING, from the other half of the population before we ask those already footing the bill to pay even more.

Anything less IS class warfare.

John B: How many millionaires and billionaires make the majority of their income from tax free bonds? Not many, because they pay a low interest rate.

I would imagine quite a few. Cali's bonds are producing good returns, mostly because the have to, otherwise no one would invest in a state that is struggling as bad as California (maybe Illinois).

Good safe investment too. It's not like the Feds will let California default now, would they?

witchrunner

"Most people want real jobs and the economy booming. Yet, libs want more government to take care of those who are poor or out of work. The rest of the world is running away from the big nanny state. Yet, Obama and the libs are running towards it. It's never worked, but they seem to think that this time it will"

you failed to note that tax cut largess for mr job creator is what failed the nation.

when wall street went crumbling, who bailed them out? who did they run to or who assured them they could go to their businesses.....government.

but when the poor or middle class do the same it becomes an abomination.

You see, i strongly doubt if the 14million jobless really want to rely on government......but what choice do they have......mr job creator? they where promised that mr job creator, after receiving tax largess will create jobs but up till now, where are the jobs? this only strengthened the notion already none that tax cuts don't create jobs rather keep enriching mr job creator.

fair taxation is not asking for too much it simply says pay your fair share, mr job creator.

Davis was convicted, according to the appropriate legal standard, by a jury of his peers.

______________________________________________________________

I'm just trying to imagine the FR lefty liberal "outrage" if this was another case where everything was exactly the same facts and circumstances, except that it was a white skinhead that killed a black police officer. I can picture them and the Rev. leading the march to correct this injustice already.

Yeah.... right.

The death penalty - forget fairness, that's too subjective. How about looking at the death penalty using objective criteria.

Let's start with consistency. Have you ever noticed that from a right-wing point of view, when it comes to money, the government can't get a damned thing right? Yet, when it comes to killing a convict, the government NEVER gets it wrong. There is of course ample evidence that persons who were convicted and executed have later been proven to have been not guilty of the crime, which led to their execution. You can replace your money, you cannot replace a life.

How about that pro-life argument. Somehow, the consistency angle seems to be completely lost. Maybe, we could restore at least the appearance of consistency if we renamed the "Pro-Lifers", "pro-birth", "anti-abortion", or "anti-choice". If nothing else, pro-lifers wouldn't seem so disingenuous. It wouldn't be quite so unseemly if it was "pro-birthers" or "anti-abortiionists" or "anti-choicers" who were slobbering and chanting, "Kill the bastard." Somehow, pro-life doesn't work here.

How about some pragmatism AND consistency. There are convicts currently serving time in Georgia prisons - and all across the nation - who have also committed murder(s). They aren't on death row. Why is that? Wouldn't it be consistent to either "kill all the bastards" or simply sentence them to life without the possibility of parole?

As a matter of pragmatism, we know it's going to cost huge amounts of taxpayer money to go through an appeals process. This can last as long as 20 years and even more; very, very expensive.

The death penalty is most assuredly not applied equally, and let's remember, we are ALL entitled to equal treatment under the law. For every UNSOLVED murder, there is at least one guilty person who may be coming to a neighborhood near you. No punishment at all, yet we will execute the tiniest fraction of those we think are guilty.

The simple fact is that the death penalty is not a perfect remedy, and it damned well better be perfect if we are going to kill people.

The "beyond reasonable doubt" standard, is a very poor criterion. We can't even agree on whether the death penalty is reasonable. Can we?

David Walker

Have you ever noticed that from a right-wing point of view, when it comes to money, the government can't get a damned thing right?

You just nailed it there. Do you think this blood thirsty group would ever see how lame their inconsistent theories are.....nope.

John B - that is but one example.

Funny part is I suspect you don't have a lot of passive investments and don't do any tax planning/avoidance strategy.

You just don't have a clue and are getting played. The will never be a Buffett Rule - it's just read meat for suckers.

Spanky -- Look at Germany and how their economy has performed over the past few years. Look at their Capital Gains tax....it didn't seem to stop their GDP from expanding. Step out of your tunnel.

Dont_carry_it_al

Step out of the tunnel.......nope, not spanky the mr job creator who sure know what he's protecting.

DCIA -

Germany is a very interesting example.

In fact, before the fall of the Berlin Wall in 1989, before the Reagan Regime took power, Germany decided to apply the "trickle down" theory. At that time, the country was of course the Federal Republic of West Germany.

So the country almost entirely eliminated upper marginal tax rates.

It did not take too many years for Germany to discover that all that tax break did was increase the wealth gap, put more money into some stock sand bonds investments (which do not stimulate economic growth), and support an even more lavish lifestyle (which also does practically nothing for economic growth or job creation).

So Germany dumped that dog of a plan.

pen: the same ol' language gets boring. What is fair taxation? You don't think 5% of the workers paying 70% of the taxes is fair? You want them to pay more?

Actually, I'll tell you what is "fair." Fair is everyone paying taxes from the first dime they make. Why? Because that would end the ridiculous class warfare. Anyone want to talk about raising taxes, then they are talking about raising their own. This concept of soaking the rich is just plain dumb. It's as if the libs don't want anyone to have jobs. After all, it's the "rich" that provide the jobs. They not only pay the salaries of their own employees, they also pay the salaries of everyone employed by government. Continue to soak the rich and there won't be anyone left to pay employees or for government.

Another simple concept that has escaped libs is that by reducing taxes, you actually grow the economy, which in turn brings in more revenue to the government. But, as we all know, increasing revenues is not the objective of libs. Punishing success is the objective. Not a very intelligent way of dealing with the economy.

witchrunner

your just dancing around the same trickle down economics theories which has never and will never yield dividend. only mr job creator keep going home with the largess and hiding them in bonds and stock that never help or grow the economy.

if your theories so are true and pure, ask yourself, why are the germans doing so well even when paying a higher tax rate than we do?

stop gimmickry. pay your fair share.

I liked the GOP better when they werent pandering so hard to the religious right. You new that Bush/Cheney were the devil, but this new crop are devils in a red dress. They'll say and do anything to pander to the far-right. I'm not sure why they spend so much time feeding to a group they naturally already have won. Instead, in some illogical way, they're no longer trying to get middle-class votes, but rather doing everything they can to eliminate the middle-class altogether.

Damage123

There goes Pat from Boston again with the kind of post that leaves me believing she was planted here as a parody of a naieve, bleeding heart, mindless liberal. And good ole Beverly. Never fails to entertain us with her nasty, senseless drivel. Troy Davis was guilty and deserved the fate that his MAJORITY BLACK JURY gave him. The POS had 22 years to try and prove the MAJORITY BLACK JURY was wrong in convicting him. He couldn't. He's dead. Good riddance. Do you people even know the name of the cop he murdered? Mark McPhail.

Hey Damage, the real POS is you.

You'll never be as big as Troy Davis. You're a fr***ing coward. If you knew anything about institutional racism, you'd know even Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas spoke of high tech lynching. So either you keep that bullchit to your ignorant self or join the civilized world because 22 years means nothing in comparison to racism, covert and overt, that has existed since a Dutch frigate dropped 20 enslaved Africans in a Virginia colony at Jamestown.

Also you missed the other points I made. I say we are all Troy Davis; if a country as great as American cannot have a system of justice which actually brings justice to its people. The other is the death panel is barbaric. We are supposed to be a civilized nation with laws in place that supercede barbarism.

In reference to your snide implication about the majority of the jury being Black; I guess you could say this lends more credence to justice in this country NOT being color blind. After the conversation we had yesterday, you still will not admit Black people face inequality and discrimination in the justice system; despite the astronomical stats you quoted me. No nationality can be prone to 60% of criminality and be only 12% of the population.

I advocate education not incarceration instead of trumped charges and wasted tax dollars on forays into the death penalty.

As far as I'm concerned, the death penalty is causing America to die too as long a people like you lurk in the darkness of barbarism akin to a Roman Coliseum.

You, in my opinion, are a hopeless, amoral bigot. Until you have walked a mile in the shoes of Black people's burden, i.e. convicted on trumped up charges, tortured into admitting crimes you did not commit; discriminated on the color of your skin, last one hired, first one fired, etc. STFU and leave my friends along

John A -- Nice recall. Today they export more than they import and their edge is quality. Something I believe we can deliver and do deliver where able. We just need to increase our exports through fairer trade and insist on a well made product entering the global markets. Germany is doing something right. We need to pay attention : )

Thank you everyone for understanding how I feel about Troy Davis and how his death will impact us.

In addition to being a barbaric, bloody, thirsty, sport for some, I see it as being very unfair to innocent people.

There seems to be a growing shift over the past decade in the GOP. What I dislike is the fact that they are so open about protecting the money of the wealthiest people (primarily business owners) at the expense of the working people.

What is it that they don't understand about the fact that without the workers, they have no business. Most workers job production is a direct reflection of their satisfaction with their home and work life. People across the country are struggling at home to make ends meet (often failing) and receiving little or no positive changes in the work place. We are setting up for a monumental failure if things don't change for the better and very soon. There easily could be a revoltion in this country as never seen anywhere on this planet if things aren't straightened out very, very soon.

We need more full time jobs that pay a reasonable salary. Ask yourself one question. Will the GOP offer that for YOU and your family members? The answer can be found in the article. A republican business owner who is dissatisfied with making about $400,000 a year, yet doing everything possible to keep the salary and benefits at a bare minimum for the employees. Why we the "average" American vote for someone from that party?

pen: Nice non-answer. Glad your enjoying the economy now. This is the Obama economy and it's in the tank. Of course, I'll pay my fair share. For what I'm receiving, it should come to about $1.95. But, you are the typical lib. Yet to see one actually come up with answers. Always easier to criticize than have solutions. And, for the record, supply-side economics, free-market, capitalism, whatever you want to call it, has always worked. That computer you're on, private sector, supply-side, free-market, capitalist made!

witchrunner

Am not enjoying the economy as it is cause i know i can do better but glad to know you agree to pay your fair share. It's not bad to give back to the country that helped you make $1.95m daily, monthly or annually.

could you just see it this way for a second, if the poor and middle class have money to spend plus the rich lavish spending, don't you see that demand for goods will drive companies and people like you to want to hire so they can increase production units so as to meet demands. invariably, you'll be doing better while more people go back to satisfied.

don't let me bore you but good to know you're ready to pay your fair share.

Witch-runner, your use of the computer as an example is substantially flawed. The Internet you're on is the product of decades of U.S. government development, begun under President Eisenhower as a DARPA project. The switchers and routers that make the Internet function are also the result of that work. In fact, the personal computer relies heavily upon a number of components that grew out of the same development efforts, with a hefty dollop of other advances created for NASA.

If you care to get the whole story, get Where Wizards Stay Up Late: The Origins Of The Internet by Katie
Hafner. It's a first-rate read, too.

As for the "Obama economy," he certainly owns a piece of it by now - but he's trying to unroll the malign effects of 30 years' worth of failed right-wing policies based on the utterly-discredited Milton Friedman ideology. His problem with the last stimulus was that it was too small by half. For the facts on those matters, start with Joseph Stiglitz, Freefall: America, Free Markets, and the Sinking of the World Economy, then segue to Thomas Frank, The Wrecking Crew: How Conservatives Ruined Government, Enriched Themselves and Beggared America, and for dessert dig into Robert Scheer, The Great American Stickup: How Reagan Republicans and Clinton Democrats Enriched Wall Street While Mugging Main Street.

Trickle down economics was a known failure long before the Reagan Regime decided to give it a run. It is still a known failure - and is part of the malaise that has gripped the country since the beginning of the Bush Recession in 2007.

On topic -- DBO, I agree that the value of more debates is a little questionable. It would be great if we could cut to the chase and get these Teapublican Posers in an unscripted forum.

About capital punishment... Those who are convicted are often a suspect in the first place because they had some kind of involvement, and usually because they have a rap sheet for committing other crimes. So while execution of someone for a crime they didn't commit is obviously wrong, and even unproductive, most death row inmates are hardly "innocent" individuals.

In the case of Troy Davis, it may have been another suspect who actually shot the off-duty officer MacPhail, but witnesses were too scared to finger that person. This is really common. But a good rule of thumb is to try not to be in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people--people need to take some responsibility at least for this. ...I told you I was a moderate.

John A, nice to see you today. You always have great insight into how the long term failure of Conservative economics compares to what's happening in other countries, as well as how the theories of Conservatives have already failed in other places. Most of those places just didn't get so hardened into the Church of Conservatism and the policies were discarded before they could do too much damage.

Right now the contracting policies of the GOPTP are on the verge of creating a Lost Decade here in America just as they did in Japan. If we don't do SOMETHING soon to generate some demand in this sluggish economy we'll soon fall into a period in which even an interest rate of effectively zero will do nothing to spur growth in the economy. THAT is the real hazard right now and the Teapublicans seem determined to recreate that same generation-long stagnation from which the Japanese have yet to fully recover.

Fiesty, I say get your "shovel ready" and "laser focus" so you don't miss the next anniversary of "recovery summer", the first anniversary went right by us. I don't know about you, but I was looking forward to receiving a gold shovel. Where is Biden when you need him?

john a: You are funny! I guess Bill Gates and Steve Jobs must have forgotten to mention that they worked for the government and not their own companies. Oh, and Al Gore invented the internet too. Was that while he was working for the government? Of course, Leonardo Da Vinci invented the helicopter too. Oh, forgot, you and the rest of the libs are followers of that pillar of academia, John Maynard Keynes. Just print money and pass it around and everything will be just fine! That's what's been happening for the past 3 years, so why isn't everything just fine. Plus, you've obviously not read Friedman's work. If you did, you'd know that what has been going on since FDR has been anything but Friedman.

pen: Of course, you do realize that the term "fair share" is intentionally nebulous and is lib speak for higher taxes, don't you? What you fail to realize is that "redistribution" of wealth does nothing to spark and economy. All it does is result in greater inefficiencies. Not unlike all the government push for alternative energies. One can argue all they want about the noble glories of so-called "green" energy, but the fact remains that the government redirecting money there results in less energy being produced for that money. It's called the law of supply and demand. The fact is, that people don't want to put their own money there because they no they can't make it back. Those, like Gore and other libs who are putting their money there are betting that they have enough clout with politicians to direct government benefits there. See Solyndra!

IRN, thanks for the factual article. Outsourcing work that government employees could easily do, does not save money. My question is how do these companies get these "great contracts"? Is this where the lobbyists come into play?

As you say, just follow the money...

Sure- federal government is super efficient. Here is just one example of its super efficiency-

That bridge between Ohio and Kentucky Obama is railing will create jobs now if congress passes his spending bill now.

First of all, Obama is appearing in Cincinnati- despite the fact that Kentucky owns the bridge.

Second, the brogue is already in the process of gaining the approvals to be replaced. FHA started in 2010- but it will take another FOUR YEARS to begin construction. Why?

Well, first there needs to be feasibility studies. Cannot replace a bridge that currently exists without first doing a long, drawn out, hundreds of people involved, study of whether or not a bridge needs to be there.

Then, there are the environmental impact studies. Need to see the impact of putting a bridge where a bridge already exists,
right? So, in that vein, time needs to be allotted for the inevitable lawsuits from the environmental groups, arguing that a bridge in that location will harm some mouse, slug, or bug.

Then, it has to go out for bids. That process, too, is fraught with lawsuits, as the losing bidders will challenge the process of awarding bids.

Finally, ground will break- as I said, it is estimated to be four years from now, which puts us at 2015. However, it is not estimated to be completed until 2022- at which point, many of the people currently involved will no longer occupy this mortal plane.

That's government efficiency at work.

So is this
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0911/64119.html

We need a special prosecutor investigating this administration. Fast and Furious, Solyndra , LightSquared- all of it. Now.

Cause, given the efficiency, none of us are going to live long enough to see Obama besought to justice.

Nojo

Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.

Mark Twain

Great subject, IR. Outsourcing government jobs is another one of those things that works better in the Church of Conservatism than it does in the real world. Here in Iowa we've had numerous real world examples of outsourcing that increased costs. As an example it now costs twice as much to mow our highway ditches and medians half as often.

Given that immense cost increase was the policy reversed? Of course not. Ask yourself what that means. Clearly this isn't about making government better, it's about destroying government while handing its functions to friendly contractors at sweetheart deals.

Doesn't get much more corrupt than that.

IR, always nice to read facts early in the morning, thanks. Mark Twain must have been acquainted with a number of No Joes, too.

NJNB -- Regarding Bridge.....While the bid process may take some time it is the engineering/design process that requires time to complete. Then you have underground work, utilites etc. to deal with. They then have to design and have parts and materials manufactured for that specific bridge project. (These things are not lying around somewhere.) And so it goes. Do you understand now? Even a small bridge can take up to 2 years to complete the entire project.

The bridge Obama talks about today does not qualify for his own jobs bill.

Repairs are already slated to take place in 2012.

Obama really sucks at this stuff, OR Way to go Obama - you are again highlighting how bad your bill is.

Say, where is the bill, and why has it not passed? He said 17 times it must, and in a hurry.

Independent Redneck- you got info that is different than NOJO or I? You saying any jobs will be created in the short term - after all that's what it's all about - on this bridge?

How about you Jody? Any info on this particular bridge?

Don't Carry - you either misunderstand the issue of Obama Jobs bill or you are like Obama highlighting how bad it is. SO he's highlighting a bridge that will use no labor for years?

Outstanding.

DCIA: NJNB -- Regarding Bridge.....While the bid process may take some time it is the engineering/design process that requires time to complete. Then you have underground work, utilites etc. to deal with. They then have to design and have parts and materials manufactured for that specific bridge project. (These things are not lying around somewhere.) And so it goes. Do you understand now? Even a small bridge can take up to 2 years to complete the entire project.

Don't forget the Greens. They'll hold the project up in court until it's "Environment Friendly". That could take years. Then the Unions need to be paid off. Each one doubles the price and the time to build it.

Spanky -- Just pointing out that any construction project takes time. With your logic we should not do any infrastructure improvements because they will not create enough jobs tomorrow. But if you look at what it takes to get to the point of actually constructing this stuff you will see many are put to work now creating the project. No, I do not misunderstand the bill, in fact, I understand it completely. So when should they work on the crumbling roads and bridges????? Using your logic the Country would fall apart Spanky.

CINCINNATI (AP) - Of the thousands of bridges, highways and
other infrastructure across the nation in need of repair or
replacement, President Barack Obama is paying special attention to
a 1960s-built double-decker across the Ohio River laden with
political ramifications.
The Brent Spence Bridge connecting Ohio and Kentucky - the
respective home states of Republican House Speaker John Boehner and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell - will serve as the backdrop Thursday to a visit by Obama to promote his jobs plan.
"You think these things happen by accident?" Boehner asked
this week.
White House spokesman Dan Pfeiffer agreed Wednesday that the
location is no accident, saying the president will contend his plan
would put construction workers back to work on a project critical
to both Ohio and Kentucky - "if the Republican leaders in Congress
were willing to work with the president and the Democrats to do
something that would create jobs in the economy."

Spotlighting the Brent Spence makes sense to Andy Fox, office
manager for Green B.E.A.N. Delivery in Cincinnati, which uses the
bridge frequently to deliver organic and other fresh produce in the
Ohio, Kentucky and Indiana region.

http://www.wkyt.com/news/headlines/130289678.html

This what looking for Spanks? Although the original article had absolutely nothing to do with Bridges. Nice Deflection.

JoAnna1-- Unions do not hold up or double the cost of any construction project. More likely it is poor engineering done by someone in an office using newbies (paid close to minimum wage) for their surveying which ends up being wrong which creates cost overruns and delays. Environmental issues are dealt with in the design process so in most cases they have already been addressed at the beginning. In other words if their is a problem it is a known factor.

Joanna1 - Unions do not hold up or double the cost of any construction project.

Except when they're on strike.

JoAnna1

Strike??? That's funny I can't remember any road/bridge construction workers striking, ever, in my area. Engineers are likely non-union......so provide me with an example.

The whole point - supposedly - of subbing work to the private sector is to capitalize on efficiencies that the brilliant folks in that world understand intuitively. Government employees for some reason are bereft of these grand insights.

You must understand that the profit motive ALWAYS leads to efficiency and NEVER, EVER, EVER to graft and corruption. For instance, an insurance company would NEVER deny treatment to one of their insured simply to increase profits. Also, it is inconceivable that a contractor running a private prison would EVER engage in short-staffing to increase profits.

This link says otherwise, but I'm pretty sure that it's not accurate because private enterprises like Penn Central, Chrysler, Lockheed, CitiBank and the like are paragons of excellence. http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Subjects/00326-LAST-contractors-government-military.htm

Golly Independent Red - you must have missed the Cincinnati Paper"s headline.

Plus it was you that tried to call out NOjo.

Fail.

Like I said Spanky nice defelection. The subject was how much more outsourcing is costing us. 'Course you and NoJo knew that. BTW I don't have to call out NoJo. She pretty much does it on her own every day. So now why don't you carry your little bag of horsesh!t some where where somebody is going to believe it cause I don't have time for it.

IR,

[This what looking for Spanks? Although the original article had absolutely nothing to do with Bridges. Nice Deflection.]

Now don't be dissin' on Spanks...someone probably pissed in his Lucky Charms again this morning.

Give the rectal perforation a break today...the punk needs it.

dcia: Strike??? That's funny I can't remember any road/bridge construction workers striking, ever,

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-06-30/news/ct-met-construction-strike-2-20100630_1_mid-america-regional-bargaining-association-laborers-district-council-unions

http://articles.wsbt.com/2011-06-16/road-projects_29668157

http://www.nevadalabor.com/unews/ibt53309.html

I've taken a quick look at the POGO "analysis" and have several concerns. First and foremost, their use of Contractor Billing Rates presents a highly misleading picture of cost. Any normal person who looks at the $276,598 number would probably gag. But that number includes the general and administrative expenses of the contractor as well as the actual salary and benefits provided to the contractor employee. General and administrative expenses include overhead such as rent for (expensive) office space as well as salaries for support personnel such as the contractor's budgeting and accounting staff as well as the computers, phones, office supplies etc. necessary to support the contractor's office And when contractors bid on a contract, they must provide the government with an estimate of these costs, so there is no sleight of hand going on here.

My other big problem is with the Contractor Billing Rates shown in POGO Table 1. My experience is that $250K-300K is in the ballpark for a manyear of technical expertise such as an engineer or scientist provided by a contractor in the Washington, DC area. But $302,661 for "Budget Analysis" ? No way. Or $337,002 for "Financial Management" or $265,442 for "Building Management"? No way again. Any government agency that is paying that kind of money for those kinds of relatively low tech services is an agency that is not being a prudent steward of the taxpayers' dollars.

Third, there are two basic reasons why the government hires contractors – reasons which the POGO study completely ignores. One, the government doesn't have enough bodies in-house to get the job done. This is often the case with administrative functions where the government brings on a contractor to supply workers to perform relatively low level tasks. Two, the government doesn't have the right kind of expertise in-house to get the job done. This is routinely the case in highly technical areas requiring specific types of engineering or scientific expertise. DoD programs such as missile defense or development of advanced aircraft fall into this category, as do domestic agencies such as EPA or FDA who require specialized scientific expertise to support their missions. The bottom line in most cases is that the government can't attract enough people with those skills, so they must rely on contractors to supply them. And oh BTW, folks with those skill sets are expensive.

Fourth, ever try firing a government worker? It can be a long, arduous, time consuming process. So when the government hires someone, chances are that person will stick around for a very long time – even if the requirements of the government change. One of the key advantages of outsourcing work to contractors is if the government's requirements change and they no longer need all those bodies, then the government can restructure or even terminate the contract at its convenience and thereby relieve the government of the need to pay for people it no longer needs.

Finally, although POGO won't touch this idea with a ten foot pole, the sad reality is not all government workers are competent. Not all contractor workers are competent either, but in the private sector contracting world those folks are weeded out while in the government world they tend to stay around and draw paychecks they don't earn – another advantage of outsourcing work.

None of this is to say that everything thing is rosy in contractor land. Whether by virtue of government mismanagement or outright contractor fraud, taxpayer dollars are being wasted. But that's an overarching issue beyond the scope of the POGO "analysis."

JoAnna1-- You left out the rest of my sentence in that quote. Again, I will state not where I live. It hasn't happened. Perhaps they don't have pay disputes here or clauses in contracts prevent it from happening.

Bill --

General and administrative expenses include overhead such as rent for (expensive) office space as well as salaries for support personnel such as the contractor's budgeting and accounting staff as well as the computers, phones, office supplies etc. necessary to support the contractor's office And when contractors bid on a contract, they must provide the government with an estimate of these costs, so there is no sleight of hand going on here.

But the fact remains they do charge for everything plus the padding it is the actual amount billed that counts.

Bill Thank you for taking the time to come up with a coherent argument. I don't agree with parts of it but at least it was well reasoned. I acutally don't like parts of it myself but it was the only study I could find that contained numbers rather than just saying something to be taken as the gospel without any corroboration. Maybe one day if you and I keep our eyes open we'll be able to discuss it further with some better figures.

I am working with a non-profit and a city organization on a downtown theater project that involves millions in federal, state and city funding as well as private party donations.

The non-profit which manages the theater will need about $1 million loan from the city for equipment to finish they upgrade. The business plan shows no need for this equipment and no source for repayment. My meeting with city officials showed that although they understand these details, they will likely just forgive the loan (unbeknownst to taxpayers).

This is a very small example, but a good example, of just how corrupt the entire system is.

This is a small town that is laying off city employees because of economics.

So tell me, how does this factor into the cost of government, as they are driving the process and the loan to the non-profit. The whole thing stinks, and years from now it will be another example of a failed "partnership".

The city I came from had 6 or 7 multi-million dollar examples of these kinds of projects - all lost millions to tens of millions, all driven by politicians.

Not directly a cost of govt vs private sector, but to think that there is more corruption in one or the other is lunacy - they are both as corrupt as those involved allow them to be.

This bridge "talking point" is yet another exaggeration. There are many bridge projects being held up by environmental impact studies, government "red type". This is a reelection ploy to play to union voters. When do you think school repairs and upgrades take place? Not doing the school year. Once again, Obama "talks". People are are going to get tired of him even before the real campaign starts. You will be able to say you heard it all before.

But the fact remains they do charge for everything plus the padding it is the actual amount billed that counts.

You miss the point. The government pays for office space too. If the government chooses to hire 100 people instead of getting those folks through a contractor, the government will need to provide offices, desks, computers etc etc for those folks. So when the POGO study identifies billing rates for the contractor that includes these costs but does not provide comparable numbers for the total cost of maintaining a government employee, then that presentation results in a misleading picture. In my quick reading I saw where POGO recognizes that issue, but it wasn't at all clear why they chose not to provide comparable cost numbers for government employees.

As for your use of the word "padding" I'd be very careful about that. The government has highly specialized contract analysts whose job is to closely scrutinize contractor cost proposals to identify any attempts at "padding." Furthermore, regardless of any presumed "padding" the government can -- and does -- ask contractors to lower the costs presented in their cost proposal. If the contractor is interested in getting the work, then they'll lower their costs, a scenario that has become more prevalent in our recent hard economic times. Moreover,once a contract is in place, services are provided and invoices submitted, the government also has an army of auditors who closely scrutinize those invoices for instances of overcharging or outright fraud. The system isn't perfect, but anyone who throws out a knee-jerk "padding" charge succeeds only in revealing their lack of knowledge of these matters

Bill -- Glad to hear someone is on the job auditing and scrutinizing contracts. I think we need to hire a few thousand more. Padding is something in general we hear about when it is exposed. As for your theory on costs including office space, general expenses etc. Are they leasing an office for each individual??? Am I an auditor/analyst of government contracts? No Bill you got me there.

Unfortunately, Bill, common sense is not all that common.

Guess ol' Me FIrst hasn't heard of home equity loans. That money WOULD be HIS, wouldn't it?

I rest my case, bill.

Dbo- why would you take out a loan- home equity, or other- if you had CASH to pay for a needed repair.

See, if you had the money, but took out a loan anyway, you, essentially, took out the loan to pay for the vacation.

People like you are the reason we are in this mess. "Buy now, pay later" is a recipe for financial disaster.

Good grief.

Bill of Fairfax,

Your household metaphor does not address the real issue in Washington. Disaster relief has now been politicized. The tea party folks are disingenuous. They will not vote for relief for states in the US because they want a off set in spending somewhere else. Meanwhile, they are very happy to spend billions per day on two wars thousand of miles away with not a peep.

Maybe we need to resurrect the old joke: Vermont needs to declare war on the US and then the army(no, it would be a government contractor today) will come in and build their broken bridges.

Bill it is not about discipline, it is about dysfunction of congress.

@Bill

The only point I would make is that an African Safari is likely to be cheaper than the Jersey Shore.

"People like you are the reason we are in this mess. "Buy now, pay later" is a recipe for financial disaster"

It's his OWN money! And, he wants a vacation AND roof. If he wants to pay interest on what is basicall his own money, so what?

Good grief.

Great post, Dummyd. Interesting how the very first BIG failure of Conservative dergulation -- the S&L collapse -- sowed the seeds of the biggest failure for Conservative economics since the Great Depression.

Terrific post, Dummyd. That points right back to Reaganomics; the failed S & Ls should have been a warning that deregulating financial institutions was a mistake, a big mistake. Too bad, Congress did not heed the warnings but instead continued to deregulate which led to the total collapse in 2008. Ideology, however well intended, is simply ideology.

Definitely good to see FR express the honest truth about the GOPTP's inability to rationally think about economics and budgets; they are not conservatives, they are a radical cult. They are not serious about the debt and deficit, they are only serious about destroying government.

Actually, dbo, my responsemto that post was that your grading curve is pretty generous- 15 million unemployed, (another 423,000 initial claims announced today. Of course, last week's claims were adjusted up by four thousand, so it's worse than that), the highest level of poverty in the 52 years Census has been tracking it, and a foreign policy that could not be worse if he actively tried to sabotage is, is a disaster, not less than stellar, in the minds of most people.

However, you wantmspecifics? Fine.

During his presidency, the Palestinians pulled the same gambit on GHW Bush. They were going to demand recognition of their statehood! The UN would have to vote!

Bush 41 very calmly told them that

A- he would close their office of representation in D.C.

B- he would cut off their funding, and

C- he informed the UN that, were a vote taken, he would cut US contributions to that august body.

That's what Obama should have done, but he's too damn stupid to do it.

Perry's not. Heck, Romney's not.

Neither Perry nor Romney would have been involved in giving tax monies to their donors- and protecting those donors from bankruptcy, at the expense of the taxpayers.

I'm pretty sure neither of them would have given the go ahead to walk guns over the border into the hands of the drug cartels.

I'm pretty sure that anybody at all, never mind Perry or Romney, would have had this economy humming by now. All Obama seems able to do is make bad situations, worse.

Take heart- he'll be a ratings bonanza for MSNBC. He can spout inanities every night- and the rest of the country will not have to listen.

Win win.

DBO, I will keep count today on this thread. Yesterday, I know the "teleprompters" easily won the day. NOJ has already put "Solydnra" on the board...

"I'm pretty sure that anybody at all, never mind Perry or Romney, would have had this economy humming by now...

ok- WHO, and HOW? You seem to have missed the whole point of the post. Who is YOUR bet to 'fix' it all (in 2.5 years, too, as long as you bring up 'by now')? and HOW do you expect them to do it?

That's all I want you to share with us. The above post is just more "Bur OBAMA...."

Forget Obama. Spill it!

NJNB, neither Romney nor Perry are President. Obama is. Romney and Perry should stay out of this issue. Their involvement only makes the negotiation more difficult.

You still don't answer DBO's question. What would your candidates do? All you can do is bash Obama.

Ironically, DBO, Romney was recently quoted as saying HIS economy in MA (where he didn't net favorable jobs added when compared to Texas) was somehow because he wasn't dealt four aces, implying Perry was dealt aces.

So, in a nutshell, Romney couldn't ECONOMICALLY improve Massachusetts by any reasonably applied measurable standards; but it's only 'cuz of a 'misdeal'?

And this crowd thinks Obama complains about the hand HE was dealt? I mean it's not like Massachusetts was in any kind of UNPRECEDENTED freefall when Romney took over, right?

So which is it? Romney CAN turn the economy around? Or Romney CAN'T turn the economy around.

Me thinks he needs to learn a better poker strategy. And perhaps the nuance of a better bluff. LOL. Dealer, shuffle 'em up now!

Shocking news: rich people have money. Poor people are poor.

The socialists want to steal the rich people's money....they do not desire to give poor people any opportunity to work hard themselves, and become rich. Rather, the socialists confiscate wealth, take their huge cut for government , and give the crumbs left over to the poor as a handout.

Where, then, is the GOP's plan to deal with the poverty rate in this nation?

Sorry, dangerfield.

Submission rejected.

Doesn't fit the narrative preferred by the hosts and the "usual suspects".

Obviously, neither read the article or even watched the video, so their just spouting the same rhetoric they toss at each other every day...

Great posts guys...

MB-

The bob and the noid have more in common than they realize...and I though everyone loved pie....charts that is...

"They're"...and "thought"...typos

Job creation.

See, when the economy picks up steam, more people are needed to fill jobs. Jobs put money in people's pockets, this reducing poverty.

I actually thought that even those dumb enough to have voted for Obama knew that.

Well, many of them do- it's just that last little sliver of the electorate who think he's doing a good job who don't get it.

You cut back the regulatory agencies, repeal Obamacare, gut out the corruption of this administration, put some tax certainty out there-and watch the economy take off.

Face it- your idol is a good speaker- but speeches do not get results. Moreover, many of his speeches contain language that frightens, rather than reassures, job creators.

Now his incompetence is FURTHER inflaming the Middle East. That's not all that reassuring, either. Rattles markets, as it were. Does not imbue firms with the confidence necessary for expansion.

Even Bill Clinton says his latest proposals will accomplish nothing.

So, to recap- increasing GDP growth will increase the demand for labor. Increasing employment will reduce poverty.

Since Obama is responsible for the gasping HDP, rising unemployment and poverty, he is obviously not the guy who can fix what he has broken.

Heck, he's too dumb to even realize he's responsible.

The electorate, however, does know.

Bob I believe the issue is the "rich are getting richer" at the expense of the poor. That should throw up a red flag for a compassionate conservative of your stature should it not Bob? By the way Bob why is it that Republicans like "socializing" their loses but insist on privatizing their profits, how come Bob? I guess "Socialism" Republican style is the bees knees right Bob?

Nojo-

The point of the article is the proposition that wealth distribution is not as skewed as it seems when SS and medicare benefits are calculated as wealth. This is an idea that could cheer, or anger both liberals and conservatives.

Your critique is constant and unwavering, but isn't exactly germane to this, is it?...

And it really appears that folks comment on things they haven't even read/seen...

No JO Big BLow procaims:

"You cut back the regulatory agencies, repeal Obamacare, gut out the corruption of this administration, put some tax certainty out there-and watch the economy take off."

=====================================================================

Damn Jo that's what we done for twenty years already, where are you hiding all the jobs? Jo the reason you don't and are not going to see jobs created in the U.S. is because years of Republican tinkering with laws in the U.S. have made the American consumer obsolete, your corporate buddies don't need the U.S. consumer to buy their junk anymore due to "globalization" and "free trade", so why would they bother putting the U.S. consumer to work? Patriotism and what's best for the country are the only incentives to hire U.S. citizens now, and Jo you and I both know those two things don't mean $hit to good corporate Republicans, welcome to the "new normal" Jo, I hope you and your kind that accomplished this get all you have coming. Have a great day.

"You and your kind"?....hmmm why does that sound so uh, distasteful...

And NOBODY read the piece, just repeating their "speeches" blaming each other for the mess we're in....

They say that victory or success has many fathers but defeat is an orphan, and it has never been more true than it is todayConservatives act as though our problems all began in January 2009 and Liberals claim all of our troubles began before January, 2009. They're both right.
The truth is of course, that our problems began over a decade ago, long before the current president was a national figure, and that that things have also measurably worsened during his tenure. Conservatives try to minimize the sins of the former administration, or ignore them entirely, while the Liberals try to minimize the sins latter.
Until both sides concede that the problems we have are the result of SHARED mismanagement and that NO ONE has all the answers, we seem to be doomed to fighting an unwinnable battle against OURSELVES that can only result in worsening economic conditions for all...

Sorry, dangerfield, I was responding to da noid, who asked what could be done about poverty- who apparently does not see the correlation between unemployment and poverty.

I understood the point of your post- sorry I did not congratulate you on posting it.

I assume you'll be called a liar, among other names.

I'm pretty sure you can take it.

You cut back the regulatory agencies, repeal Obamacare, gut out the corruption of this administration, put some tax certainty out there-and watch the economy take off.

Obama has already cut back regulatory agencies. He has reigned in the EPA on air quality standards, he has kept the taxes unchanged from the previous occupant. Almost 10 years with unchanged taxes and you don't call that certainty? He has actually included additional tax benefits to the "job creators" inducements and bribes.

Now his incompetence is FURTHER inflaming the Middle East. That's not all that reassuring, either. Rattles markets, as it were. Does not imbue firms with the confidence necessary for expansion.

No politician left or right could expertly handle the contentious Israeli/Palestinian negotiations. Sorry Bush couldn't do it, neither can Romney/Perry/Paul/Palin etc. No one saw the explosion of anger coming from the Arab street and frankly no one could stop it or prevent it. I marvel at why someone as astute as you would not understand that worldwide, the power of the President has diminished and our influence is waning. That is not because of the occupant it just is diminished because other powers have grown in stature and wealth.

Markets are falling, again, because of the potential default in Greece and the EU's reluctance to provide a bailout. A big mistake on their part to try to level the playing field over 17 countries with a common currency and common union. However, watch worldwide as conservatives angrily blame socialist policies and government spending as a cause. Watch worldwide as conservatives panicking that Greece and European markets will fail will hail a new bail out for Greece. Markets will soar back when a new bail out is released. For all their bluster, other then the Ron Paul types all they want is the status quo. Hypocrites.

Also how will repealing Obamacare create the demand for jobs. For all the GOP bluster there is no proof that creating "economic conditions for growth" or better stated following Obama's moderate quasi conservative programs over the last few years will help the economy. We have gone down that path. Congratulations GOP you've won the argument, the ball is shifted ever to the right but it is still not conservative enough. Those hapless GOP candidates better not pine so much for the POTUS title as we are heading for failure. Will be a cummulative effort but it will happen on their watch. Won't make me happy but it is coming.

Let's get this straight this is the new normal. We are on life support here. Your guy and policies will not fix it. My guy and policies will not fix it. I chose to hold out hope for my guy because I don't think he will let the patient die. At the least he will offer hospice services to ease our passing. The GOP on the other hand will at worst play executioner or at the least they will rationalize that pulling the plug will save them a bit on their electric bill.

NJ-

De Nada.

Congratulations? I'd be happy if someone read or watched the piece and agreed...or disagreed:)

That, after all, was the point, and you obviously understand that...

Now, dangerfield.

You were well aware of the challenges posed by this venue going in.

Were I you, I'd choose to be amused at the content of the responses to your post.

You know...laughing to keep from crying?

Sorry, dangerfield- have to step on your post again.

Mark, Obama was warned, in January of 2010, that war and weather had contributed to food shortages in the Middle East and North Africa. These food shortages were predicted to cause exactly the kind of chaos they did, in fact, create.

In this country, we use the Department of Agriculture to ameliorate the boom/bust crop cycle- which hurts farmers in both the boom and the bust. We pay farmers to leave fields fallow, buy excess crops of wheat, corn, soybeans, among others, and, generally, keep the food market stable.

We have, at any given moment, at least one year's surplus of these crops in storage- which must be destroyed if they are not used- for obvious reasons.

Had Obama instructed the Agriculture Department to ship to that region from our surplus, and to take the necessary (financial) actions to encourage more production from our farms, a Tunisian fruit seller would not have set himself aflame in protest over high food prices.

That was the trigger for the so-called Arab Spring- which is the most inappropriate name for a chaotic uprising I have ever heard- and the region would still be stable.

So, yes, Obama could have done something. He chose not to- for what reason, I do not know.

As to what is happening at the UN this week- GHW Bush faced the same gambit from the Palestinians. He defused it by telling them that he would close their office of representation, cut off their funding- and cut off US funding for the UN if they took it up.

Obama chose not to follow a path that had already been successful.

I do not know why not.

I would not have accused Obama of incompetence in these matters if I had not done the research to understand what he could have done to prevent these crises.

Sorry, Mark- but I have a real understanding of just how badly he has mishandled these issues. I don't think he's evil- I just think he's in way over his head.

Does nothing to ameliorate the damage.

From a book about the Causes of the Arab spring by Timo Behr of the public policy institute. While I admit that food shortages played a part I think you overlook the huge social and political oppressive factors that played a role. The overwhelming top down policies onto the beleagured massess couldn't have hurt either._

No Jo - I'm not saying Obama has done all things right, or even all things to my approval. However, no one can handle this. Would it hearten you to know that whoever is in charge, we are both in trouble.

__

Timo Behr and Mika Aaltola examine the causes and impacts of the recent uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia in conjunction with the subsequent uprisings seen throughout the Middle East in The Arab Uprising: Causes, Prospects and Implications. They present the similarities seen within Middle Eastern countries and how the economic, political, and dignity deficits seen in these countries could facility increased changes within the Middle East. The main findings Behr and Aaltola came to are found below.

The popular uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia have been triggered by a combination of deteriorating living standards and growing inequality (an economic deficit), a lack of political freedoms and public accountability (a political deficit), and the alienation of the demographically dominant age cohorts from the political order (a dignity deficit).

While similar conditions exist in a number of Arab countries, socio-economic indicators suggest that the intensity of these deficits varies considerably across the Arab world. As a result, the nature and shape of protests across the region might differ.

However, protests across the region have also been driven by a powerful “contagion effect” working on an ideational and emotional level. This contagion has been facilitated by satellite broadcasters, mobile phones, the internet, and new social media tools that elude government control and helped create new cleavages and loyalties.

The outcome of the mass protests is likely to vary in accordance with the nature and level of cohesion of the incumbent regimes and their ability to maintain their monopoly on the use of force. While in some cases this might lead to a democratic transition from the bottom up, in other cases the outcome may be more gradual top-down reforms, a government crackdown on protestors or even a disintegration of the state.

On a systemic level, the Arab uprising will create a new political and economic reality in the Middle East and transform the regional balance of power. While Western influence in the region will inevitably decline as a result, the Arab revolutions also have an undeniable potential to enhance regional cooperation, reduce the appeal of terrorism and help break the current deadlock in the peace process.

From a book about the Causes of the Arab spring by Timo Behr of the public policy institute. While I admit that food shortages played a part I think you overlook the huge social and political oppressive factors that played a role. The overwhelming top down policies onto the beleagured massess couldn't have hurt either._

No Jo - I'm not saying Obama has done all things right, or even all things to my approval. However, no one can handle this. Would it hearten you to know that whoever is in charge, we are both in trouble.

__

Timo Behr and Mika Aaltola examine the causes and impacts of the recent uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia in conjunction with the subsequent uprisings seen throughout the Middle East in The Arab Uprising: Causes, Prospects and Implications. They present the similarities seen within Middle Eastern countries and how the economic, political, and dignity deficits seen in these countries could facility increased changes within the Middle East. The main findings Behr and Aaltola came to are found below.

The popular uprisings in Egypt and Tunisia have been triggered by a combination of deteriorating living standards and growing inequality (an economic deficit), a lack of political freedoms and public accountability (a political deficit), and the alienation of the demographically dominant age cohorts from the political order (a dignity deficit).

While similar conditions exist in a number of Arab countries, socio-economic indicators suggest that the intensity of these deficits varies considerably across the Arab world. As a result, the nature and shape of protests across the region might differ.

However, protests across the region have also been driven by a powerful “contagion effect” working on an ideational and emotional level. This contagion has been facilitated by satellite broadcasters, mobile phones, the internet, and new social media tools that elude government control and helped create new cleavages and loyalties.

The outcome of the mass protests is likely to vary in accordance with the nature and level of cohesion of the incumbent regimes and their ability to maintain their monopoly on the use of force. While in some cases this might lead to a democratic transition from the bottom up, in other cases the outcome may be more gradual top-down reforms, a government crackdown on protestors or even a disintegration of the state.

On a systemic level, the Arab uprising will create a new political and economic reality in the Middle East and transform the regional balance of power. While Western influence in the region will inevitably decline as a result, the Arab revolutions also have an undeniable potential to enhance regional cooperation, reduce the appeal of terrorism and help break the current deadlock in the peace process.

YD

sadly, an apt and perfect metaphor,...

I have said this for months, we need to reframe this paradigm. It isn't like anything else before, so applying any of the dated economic measures aren't even stemming blood flow.

Sorry for the double post. First was called spam then resent it and...

Hi Clara.

Hey, dawg:

Did you see my shout out to Mark Cuban the other day?

Man I love me some self made socialists!

[Even Bill Clinton says his latest proposals will accomplish nothing.]

NoJo:

More bull@!$%# I see...now how about you post Clinton's quote, in its ENTIRE context, instead of Rush Limbaugh's snippet of a soundbyte?

FR counts on you to post your crap, so how about a retraction of your comment? Can we count on you to do that?

...sure we can...

Didn't see it. Have been away a few days. Actually just to get the righties mad, I was at a conference on new energy efficiency standards in buildings - ASHRAE 90.1 (2010)

Those darn regulations. Anyway I was happy to know the seminar was sponsored by the Department of Energy and ARRA (stimulus) :}

Ydawg

ya' gotta' love steamin' some buns!

here's the article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/19/mark-cuban-taxes-buffett-rule-obama_n_970266.html

Add him to the list of lobbyists for the poor!

I think Cuban's great. Brought home the NBA trophy, paid for the parade fesitivities so City of Dallas wasn't out a dime. He is about making money, but sees opportunities where others don't look. He is thinking big and helping pump money into an area of the city that has been sorely underdeveloped. If he is right he will make money while bringing stores and services to a blighted part of the city. Win, win.

____________

Leaders and Neighbors Praise Mark Cuban's planned development in southern Dallas

By ROY APPLETON and RUDOLPH BUSH / The Dallas Morning News

Published: 14 April 2010 09:52 AM

Words of hope and support greeted the news Wednesday that Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban wants to develop 176 acres, including a former dumping ground, in east Oak Cliff .

Pieces of brick and slabs of concrete help define the rolling terrain near Kiest Boulevard and Southerland Avenue. The towers of downtown stand out, as does the deep blue of a small lake, at the site where Cuban proposes to build his Wonderview project of homes, retail, offices and sports fields and facilities.

On Wednesday, the Dallas City Council praised the proposed investment in Oak Cliff and agreed to expand a tax subsidy district to provide funds for the project's public improvements.

Mayor Tom Leppert said the development represents a shift for the area with "investors who are recognizable" making big moves in southern Dallas.

After the meeting, Mayor Pro Tem Dwaine Caraway said he expects Cuban's plans will draw other developers' attention.

"Just the thought of him wanting to come is a great thing. When he comes, think of the other investors, grocery stores, things like that. They know he's smart. They'll ask, 'What does he know that we don't?' " Caraway said.

The veto is a constitutionally granted power to the POTUS. The filibuster and secret holds employed by the Senate GOP is only part of senate rules.

That said, It is my way or the highway. Frankly, however, I welcome him using it to keep the GOP from driving down the wrong way onto oncoming traffic plowing through a couple of sub compacts with their oversized Hummer/SUV.

Dangerfield going back to your other posts today about taxes and wealth, Don't worry just like NIMBY is a universally held belief, so is the belief that everyone else should pay higher taxes but not me.

Obama's AJA will be gutted to only include tax incentives for hiring. Nothing more, no spending.

Sorry for not watching your link.

dangerfield, I looked at your link.

It reads entirely differently if one looks at the entire quote instead of cherry-picking.

That's why I always post the link, and why it's disingenuous to claim that there's any cherry-picking going on. Of course, your comment isn't about the piece itself, but a criticism of the person or way it was posted...typical.

So, that is the sum total of your take on the rather lengthy discussion by two people who actually have experience with the topic from the inside? What was your point? Do you agree with Greenstein, or not, and why?

But thanks for the input!

Well, the poor DO have lobbyists, that's why the right wants to discredit Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, George Soros,...It just STEAMS them that some of the wealthiest Americans (you know those who've actually ACHIEVED the American Dream without seed money from daddy) would dare reject membership into the good ole boy club to strike out for the poor.

When was the President's last speech on poverty? Who was the last Senator or Congressman, of either party to produce an anti-poverty program?

Everything that has been proposed by both parties is about the middle class. Neither party has anything to say about the poor. In fact both parties are looking to serve their core constituencies at the expense of the poor....

dangerfield-

Obamacare was for the poor.

If polling is to be believed, the majority of middle class American health care consumers are convinced that the HCR bill did nothing to address the chief concern of the middle class...rising premium costs In fact, many feel that the legislation will ultimately result in the degradation of the health care that they presently receive, are largely satisfied with, and were told they could keep if they so desired. I can certainly relate to their unease...even more so after the 40% excise tax on health care providers finally kicks in.

Obamacare does nothing to address the central priority of middle class health care consumers...so, it must have been for the poor.

I would assume that the Obama-Biden 2012 team is counting on the poor to return them for four more years.

The middle class is going to be a much tougher sell.

MB-

"Obamacare"...is the Health care Reform Act, and was (IMO) a huge tactical and practical mistake, but it was no more designed for the "poor" than TARP was. And as unpopular as it was, and is:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/obama_and_democrats_health_care_plan-1130.html

The stated "intent" was to ultimately reduce the spending curve for all, especially the middle class, so I would disagree. This President, despite the cries of "socialist" and "wealth redistribution" has been an reliable ally of the financial "powers that be" as evidenced by who is ponying up the big bucks for his reelection campaign. The "poor" after all, just don't have enough "change" to merit more than lip-service from their "champions"

RFK has been dead a long time, and there are few if any left carrying that torch....

Just my opinion...

I'll stick with my view that Obamacare benefits the poor far more than it benefits the middle class..."stated" intent aside.

As a purely politcal consideration, that may turn out to be its single most fatal flaw...among many.

It is what it is...we'll see how much time President Obama and Congressional Democrats spend trumpeting the crowning legislative achievement of the current administration during the upcoming 2012 campaign.

They'll probably choose to focus on the wildly successful economic stimulus bill instead.

We both know that this will be a POSITIVE campaign with both sides presenting their vision for the country and not some fear mongering, mud-slinging, turn off your TV, slime-fest, right?

NOT

So, sarcasm aside, sarcasm and cynicism is about all the electorate will have left by November 2012, by which time N.O.T.A, may be the top pick....

(NoneOfTheAbove)

I tend to agree with the growing number of political analysts and pundits who believe that 2012 will be the most negative campaign in U.S. history to date.

The ultra-cynical polar-opposite of "Hope And Change".

It could even be tough for the remaining wide-eyed idealists to adjust to the abrupt course-correction.

A few might even go overboard, df.

lol, dangerfield-

You think they'll like Ron Suskind and Mitch Daniels better than the PBS link?

Three for three.

Sure! Open-mindedness is the hallmark of this blog...isn't it?

Of course it is, df.

Well, it's certainly spurred a lively discussion...

Kind of sad...

Real sad, df.

I'm crying the tears of a clown...a "circus clown", to be exact.

Sorry...

Inside joke, df.

". . .a couple of bucks and a sound bite."

You mean, like Obama giving tenfold the amount donated to him to a company in which that donor had a substantial financial interest, despite the clear warning that that company was on the brink of bankruptcy due to a poor business plan, and then having a photo op at said company?

Do you ever recognize the irony of your statements of support for this failed president- who is not just a moron, but a corrupt moron, at that?

Jeez. . .

NJ, can you EVER stay on topic?

well said this about The 10,000 Maniacs song Candy everybody wants:

Palin would not agree to replace Biden on the ticket.

Fact is the economy is in dire straights due to Obama's policies

That's not a fact. All the numbers indicate our economy has been headed in a downward direction since Clinton handed it off to Bush.

The middleclass has been shrinking for some time with the rich getting richer and the rest of us losing ground. We've been losing our manufacturing base for at least a decade, and the 9/11 attacks didn't help (I was laid off from my job after 9/11, I'm sure many people were.) Then there are the billions spent on the two wars, which took money away from education and infrastructure at home. But Obama's polices? I don't think they have hurt us, in fact, the American Automobile companies are all profitable for the first time since 2004, thanks to Obama.

Tony, that is an excellent fact. The dems ran on hope and change in 2006 including our now Idiot in Chief. They thought they could spin the economy down and then with a dem in the White House be able to turn it around. But it is like driving a car off the cliff, once it's off the ground there's no turning it around. The dems have no clue how to stop the slide, and unlike Bill Clinton, obama won't try to switch for the better. Although I'm not a Clinton fan, he let the GOP help him correct the freefall the economy was in.

Now , now Amy. Youy know that TonyC has his own set of facts. He and others have been proven wrong, shown the truth so many times but he would rather stay misinformed. Can't lose an argument that way, right Tony?

Leaders take responsibility. Losers make excuses.

Obama has been in office for 33 months. Any President in office has to "own" the results. That is a fact. Listen to Obama's lectures....or as you would call it, "speeches. One thing about liberals, they never let the facts get in the way. Liberals exaggerate, misinform and misrepresent what is said by anyone who disagrees with them. The next 15 months will be no different, the economy will remain weak, and Obama will make excuses. That is my opinion. It will come as a shock to you liberals, but I "earned" the right to have an opinion with military service and the payment of plenty of taxes. I do not feel entitled to anything. Different than you I bet.

So, you a hero TonyC.? Because you served you think your opinion means more than someone else's. Well I served so I guess we just cancel each other out.

Again, you prove my point. You exaggerated and misrepresented what I said. I said I earned my opinion, nothing that I said indicated that I believe my opinion means more than someone else's. I don't. Interesting that your thought process runs that way. Kind of indicates you may believe your opinion counts more than others. Also, interesting you ignore the real point. All the economic data proves Obama's economic policies are not right for the country and have failed as well. Like I said, my opinion is that the next 15 months will show zero improvement in the economy and job growth. A direct result of Obama's attempt to move this country to the left.

Richard

that is an easy out to say the POTUS is single handed bringing the market down. The Market is reacting to Greece's impending Default, the European Union's inability to pull Europe out of recession, the decline of the Euro, and because nothing is getting done in Washington (and the POTUS is only one player in that equation)...

It's not faith in anyone or anything...where would you put your money?

The middle east?

Europe?

Asia?

We are the economic refuge of default. The best thing you can say is that we are the least most scary place to put your money, and that's about it...

Greece's debt was brought about by a culture of tax evasion, Tony-C. Greeks have made an art out of not paying their taxes - hence, a pile up of government debt. Nowhere in your post do you mention the fact we put two wars on a credit card while lowering taxes to levels not seen in 50 years. If you want to be taken seriously, regarding debt reduction, you have own up to the role Republicans have played in driving it up. The Bridge to Nowhere is embelmatic of Republican hypocrisy. When TeaParty politicians send money to their home districts it's "much needed infrastucture improvement" when Democrats do it it's "wasteful entitlement spending." Hold your own party's feet to the fire if you want to be taken seriously.

So you believe that with 50% of the population either employed by the goverment or receiving government pensions had nothing to do with the problem? I understand about the tax "evasion". People in Italy do the same thing, it is called "barter" and higher tax rates in this country will result in the same attitude. I don't have a party. What I see, is some people trying to address the debt issue now, and some more concerned about votes. About the wars, the wars were and are wrong. It is time to stop accepting stupidity and mistakes from Obama because Bush was stupid and made mistakes. My point stands, the debt is the issue that will end up being the real crisis in America and Obama is not providing leadership in solving this problem. How Greece got there and what was responsible for it is not the issue. We are headed in the same direction none the less.

you are full of it...no one under 50 gives a rats butt about this granny!!!

Dude...that's WHY...:)

See Fred Thompson, Rudy, and a cast of thousands....non candidates always poll higher than actual ones...

Interesting, but predictable. You immediately bring race into the situation, then name-calling and prejudice comments. No surprise here, the definition of a liberal, bitter and hateful, but claim to be compassionate.

Sorry, Tony, the compassionate label came from your team,...We finally got PRAGMATIC.

Clara, one can be compassionate and pragmatic. However, I really don't see how far left or far right folks are pragmatic or for that matter compassionate. Thanks for the update though, I will now know that liberals no longer like the label of having compassion. None of which changes my opinion of jennifer, which is based on her statements.

I heard Solyndra had the contract for solar panels to light up all the new Obama bridges. But now they will have to be made in China, just like the decking for the new SF Bay bridge.

That would be the Solyndra which the Bush Administration worked on for two years and tried to rush through a loan for so that the Obama Administration wouldn't get credit, right?

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/09/15/solyndra-advanced-by-bush-for-2-years-solyndra-timeline/

http://themoderatevoice.com/122532/solyndra-and-bush/

This one's a dead issue, dude. Solyndra was vetted by 2 different administrations, both parties, and sometimes investments just don't work out. 1.3% of the government's green investment failed. Get over it.

John B - There you go again, blame Bush. Yes the Bush administration considered the so called "green energy" loan and they turned it down because of too many red flags. Obama's administration pushed the loan for one reason and that was the photo op when Obama traveled to CA and a campaign payback.

Solyndra was vetted by 2 different administrations, (denied the loan by Bush and had the loan approved by Obama), it is a long way from being a dead issue. Why did the people at Solyndra state they would take the 5th after agreeing to testify? 1.3% of the government's green investment failed, so why are we still wanting to invest in more of same BS. Get over it, yea when Obama blows the money it's o.k. with you liberals. You are aware that the money could have been used for better things, but that's o.k. just raise more taxes and waste more money.

The loan wasn't "denied" by the Bush Administration. They tried to push it through before Inauguration Day but the process wouldn't go through fast enough to let that happen. That's clear from the links I provided.

Look, if there's fraud involved the authorities will deal with it. I have confidence in law enforcement and no problem with charging criminals. My point is quite clear -- pinning all this on President Obama is attack politics, plain and simple. You're denying reality if you try to do so, that's why the Solyndra story isn't going anywhere.

More false information John. The Bush administration denied the loan. What you say is false and your source is wrong. The fact that the Bush administration denied the loan and the Obama administration revived it is well documented.

Tony, you've a long way to go before your version of the "facts" doesn't require an immediate fact check.

To set the record straight, Climate Progress is publishing this timeline — verified by Department of Energy officials — that shows how the loan guarantee came together under both administrations. In fact, rather than rushing the loan for Solyndra through, the Obama Administration restructured the original Bush-era deal to further protect the taxpayers’ investment:

It’s often claimed that the Solyndra loan guarantee was “rushed through” by the Obama Administration for political reasons. In fact, the Solyndra loan guarantee was a multi-year process that the Bush Administration launched in 2007.

You’d never know from the media coverage that:

1. The Bush team tried to conditionally approve the Solyndra loan just before President Obama took office.
2. The company’s backers included private investors who had diverse political interests.
3. The loan comprises just 1.3% of DOE’s overall loan portfolio. To date, Solyndra is the only loan that’s known to be troubled.

Because one of the Solyndra investors, Argonaut Venture Capital, is funded by George Kaiser — a man who donated money to the Obama campaign — the loan guarantee has been attacked as being political in nature. What critics don’t mention is that one of the earliest and largest investors, Madrone Capital Partners, is funded by the family that started Wal-Mart, the Waltons. The Waltons have donated millions of dollars to Republican candidates over the years.

To set the record straight, Climate Progress is publishing this timeline — verified by Department of Energy officials — that shows how the loan guarantee came together under both administrations. In fact, rather than rushing the loan for Solyndra through, the Obama Administration restructured the original Bush-era deal to further protect the taxpayers’ investment:

http://cleantechnica.com/2011/09/15/solyndra-advanced-by-bush-for-2-years-solyndra-timeline/

Sorry to spoil your partisan hack attack.

Source: Clean Technica (http://s.tt/13giD)

Arlin, thanks for the update about ole Normie. What a guy. He is the poster boy for every young roadie. There is life after rock and roll. You too can change from a democrat to republican, get elected mayor, senator, and then lose to a wrestler and a comedian. The payoff is to get to be a money bundler for your favorite politician.

Glad coleman has found work!!!

Bump and Run: While your statement has merit, be assured that NBC will be all about discrediting ANYrepublican candidate on the ticket and singing the praises of Obama. Brian Williams and Chuck Todd will lead the charge.