Funny how they discount their bad behavior as something happening before God! "Yes I discovered God when I was 30 and married. No longer chasing tail, drinking every night and getting bad grades because I couldn't drink and study at the same time. And you must forgive me because I'm sure God did. He doesn't care that I'm pro life only in regards to controlling women's vaginas but anti life as far as Universal Healthcare, Death Penalty and safety issues like the fire destroying property and life across my state. But I am a good man. Please vote for me so I can make America a third world country just like Texas."

Not sure if he's an alcoholic, but it kind of sounds like a prey away the gay moment.

But I won't ask, and he probably won't tell.

God is no longer taking your calls...

..... like Obama's biggest worry are a few firehouses for rural fire departments.

But I won't ask, and he probably won't tell.

Something tells me there's more then skeletons stuffed in Perry's closet! ;o)

Slick Rick is a 'religious joke'...

Between 2000 (when he became Governor) to 2009 he ignored the biblical teachings of tithing!

He earned approximately $2.68 million and tithed only $14,200.......

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/article/Perry-has-not-overburdened-thecollection-plate-1420449.php

He earned approximately $2.68 million and tithed only $14,200.......

In other words, he's one of those phony Christians who tosses a $20 into the basket and then takes out change?

"I was lost spiritually and emotionally

Sadly, he's still lost intellectually...

Guess he's still lost "spiritually and emotionally", Feisty!

In other words, he's one of those phony Christians who tosses a $20 into the basket and then takes out change?

So Feisty,

How much did Obama leave in the basket for all those "God Damn America" sermons?

"I was lost spiritually and emotionally

"Sadly, he's still lost intellectually..."

Still puts him way.... way ...... way ahead of an ideological narcissist with no conscious.

Maybe Bo the Dog should run against Perry if he ends up being the repub nominee.

Bo seems nice.

Good luck having the rich donate enough to the chuches to take over healthcare for the poor and old like Ron Paul thinks. If only those darn doctors would start taking chickens again.

Listening to the crowd at the debate, if you don't have health care, republicans suggest you just die quickly.

This is all about money, I want you to die so I won't have to share any of my money. If that is a real American, I don't think I want to be one.

He was lost until he found the invisible guy in the sky. How does that work? Will he balance the budget with invisible money? Will he fight wars with invisible weapons, or is it enough to have the invisible guy on your side?

I can't stand it. He likes to breathe air that is very visible, but he places his trust in an invisible guy. How do you vote for someone like that?

Or like Glenn Beck, or prescription drugs like Rush Limbaugh? Look, conservatives don't worry their little heads about things like merit, qualifications, life achievements (unless they want to try to bash a Democrat). The real story is Perry is STILL lost in all that crony capitalism of his. The only hope is Romney's magic jobs machine...

David, David, David .....

Rev Wright says "God Damn America" ....

Then Obama gets elected .....

Look where America is now, right?

Americans First -- The hypothetical question Wolf Blitzer was trying to ask was about a mandate for everyone to participate in Universal Health Care--to prevent the choice between being humane and and letting someone die. That got lost, but I'm not suprised. And am I the only one who caught the part about the coma and remembered the Terri Schiavo intervention?

How interesting to read how intolerant the party of tolerance and diversity are today.

(Word hypocrisy comes to mind.)

America is in better shape then if a Republican were President. We would be in depression right now and in a third war with Iran. Boy, I sure want another Republican President especiall from this crop!

I really have to wonder how many of these so called religious Republicans would feel if Jesus were to analyze the action, stances and comments that they have made, taken and done. I really doubt Jesus would let a man die due to withholding medical care just because the guy didnt prepare and "take care" of himself as Ron paul suggested.

What I find sad is that these so called "Christian" Republicans didnt say a damn thing about that comment and how it was morally, ethically and spiritually wrong to just let a man die by withholding medical care.

So much for the "Christian" spirituality and not doing evil acts. Then again when Money and Power are the Repubs only goal, (well that and filibustering everything they can) what do you expect.

Satan himself used lies and half truths to make his case to Adam and Eve seems that the trend is still working.....

David Walker...."I can't stand it. He likes to breathe air that is very visible, but he places his trust in an invisible guy. How do you vote for someone like that?"

Sadly, it maybe one of the only two pathetic choices we're left with....

Bob, Bob, Bob:

You aren't suggesting that the invisible guy listens to a black minister, are you? If indeed the invisible guy is listening to the black minister's suggestion - and acting on it - how is he damning America? I mean do I have to watch out for a rain of frogs or something like that?

weeyourself

America is in better shape then if a Republican were President. We would be in depression right now .....

Sorry, but the recession ended in June 2009 due to measures Bush took and natural cycles and while Obama was messing with health care - we have been a "recovery" for over 2 years.

Obama's recovery does seem like a depression though, doesn't it.

David,

Nah ..... you're good ...... I was just messing with you.

Have a good afternoon David.

Well, he at least has all of us praying.....praying that he (actually of the current GOP candidates) don't become our next president or vp.

Absolutely the only requirement for being recognized as a Christian is to say you are a Christian. It is therefore extremely important that people like Rick Perry be judged based on their actions instead of what they say. I don't think that Governor Perry passes the test.

Rick Perry is still lost. He is exploiting religion for personal gain and profit.

Nasty redhead

When you talk about Perry being cheap and not giving enough to his church, it kind of reminds me of the Clintons and writing off old used undershorts for tax deductions.

Why aren't you over on the other board defending President Obama and his donation to Solyndra? He really needs your help over there.

God wants you to vote for ME! I'm tight with the Lord! Sound political move. Transparent and disgusting, but a sound political move.

Sounds a lot like little george, who got down on his knees and prayed to God, then got up and prayed on America. Aloha!!

How much did Obama leave in the basket for all those "God Damn America" sermons?

You would need to see THE WHOLE SERMON to understand the context of the comment. It ends in redemption for the United States. Your Charismatic churches do the same. It's an uninformed comment.

OOOH PLLLEEAASSEEE!! not this crap again, so anything that comes up while he is being vetted was "before he was saved" how stupid does he think America is?? This guy has no shot at being president anymore than George Bush would if he ran again. And already he has lied like a dog to the American people, really Perry? Merck only gave you 5,000 dollars? Really? That has already be proved a lie. Perry is just another sell out who got wealthy by doing political favors to special interests groups at the expense of the people of Texas. Now he want to make MORE money at the expense of the American people. And I thought Cheney was the most evil man in the world......well actually he is.

Dang!! Stop that Ricky George. You're making me verklempt.

So his wrestling with God has made him a better man. He needs to keep praying and praying hard because he is a dishonest man who uses God as an excuse to justify his lies and deception of the people of Texas and this country. He needs to go back to school. Only this time, he needs to learn something.

ooooh, I get it.....

When Perry addresses a targeted crowd about his faith all hell breaks loose but when Mr. Obama kicks his ebonics into high gear along with the fried chicken twang in front of blacks, you liberals are ok.....lol...got it...racists pigs.

I could not care less about either Perry or Obama......just be consistant folks.

Lean Forward!

if most politicians sang...the truth about them self...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfCwdqWuvxo&feature=relmfu ...plain bob 2012...

My now deceased ex-husband, a professed "redneck" had a wonderful way of describing guys like Perry: "Out on Saturday night drinking, womanizing and yahooing. On Sunday mornin', thumping a Bible hard enough to erase the sins of the night before." roflmao.

mmnord, your words belie your support of Perry. I dislike Perry because of what he says. I conclude from the balance of your post that you are a racist trying to portray yourself as a moderate. Obama speaks very cleary, he writes his own speeches, and he speaks to all americans not just a target black audience. I am consistent in my dislike of Perry.

Lean forward are just empty words when you say them.

I do agree with one thing Perry said,,,,,, He is lost!

And I have one question? Who is God? I'm an atheist and as far as I concerned he's a myth and it has no place in politics. You have every right to preach whatever faith you wish and I have no problem with that but I don't drink from the same grail.

Wade,

Sometimes Obama writes his own speeches:

I've been to 57 states

I will close GITMO

And sometimes he speaks to ALL Americans except:

when speaking to a group of Latino's "You have to defeat the enemy, meaning Republicans

Wade - you never cease to amaze me with your posts.

Lean Forward - this won't hurt a bit

Lean Forward libs because it's the first step toward falling on your face.

Wade, we've already made note of nimrod's attempt at cleverness and "lean forward." Get new material already.

When Falwell said Perry was "down to earth" he was very close to telloing the truth; Perry is dumber than dirt.

Poor Bob 1805- still living in a FOX Fact world. First there is no such thing as ObamaCare. Second, the healthcare reform act is not the proposed changes made by Obama but a hybrid of Republican ideas and cave-in Democrats. Third- over 90% of the plan does not go into effect until 2014. fourth- the reason there are fewer insured people is because employer are dropping healthcare to line their pockets instead of offering group plans that employees can participate in- the reason why healthcare reform is necessary in the first place!

He earned approximately $2.68 million and tithed only $14,200.......

That's $14,200.00 more than I would have put in...................

True Patriot, if you look at my column we agree on a lot of things, unless you aren't voting for Obama in 2012. If you are I don't understand what I perceive to a slam on my post.

Perry on God: I was 'lost spiritually and emotionally'

I hate to break the news to you Perrywinkle-dinkle, you are just lost period.

Now go stand in the corner for an hour and talk to the wall. U - dumbazz

Wade Tampa....

Lean Forward is MSNBC's tagline.....I use it to merely point out how utterly STUPID it is but yet the Libs cling to it. I've even went to their website and still can't figure it out. The only hint I get is their commercials with the lesbian Rachel in her brown hoodie at the Hoover Dam trying to convince us that socialism is the answer.

Lean Forward is a joke. If it's not, please explain it. I'll wait with bated breath.

As far as my political leanings go, I doubt I could be any more conservative. A moderate I am not. Nice try though.

Obama speaks very cleary, he writes his own speeches, and he speaks to all americans not just a target black audience. I am consistent in my dislike of Perry

Are you for real?!?!

That is more racist than anything I would say....lmao...."Obama speaks very clearly"....lmao...I almost fell outta my chair.

How should Mr. Obama speak?!?! you reject....lol....jeez, give a liberal loon enough rope....My above post was just proved by your idiotic thread.

Voting for Obama because he is black is JUST as racist as not voting for him because he is black. I sure hope one day you can figure a way to overcome your white guilt. It's perfectly okay to disagree with Mr. Obama's politics and not feel guilty.....That's just a liberal trick...lol

He's so full of @!$%#.

Anything to get votes.

Bush is a similar case Religion help him to leave the alcohol. I guess Obama the same with his drug consuming. Nobody is perfect.

mmnord I am putting you on ignore, your defence of an unacceptable post, clinched my decision. You can post what you like, but it doesn't mean I have to read it.

Nobody cares Wade. Really.

Lean Forward Baby!

Leftists hate and ridicule Christianity and Judaism yet want to build a Muslim victory mosque in lower Manhattan. Why?

Right-Wing myth. Many "leftists" happen to be Christian or Jewish and are hardly likely to "hate and ridicule" themselves, and are highly unlikely to build a mosque of any sort. They do believe that, in a country of religious freedom, Muslims have the same right to build mosques on land they own as as other religions have to build Chapels, Cathedrals, Synagogues and Temples. It's a simple concept, but incomprehensible to those who really don't believe in religious freedom.

Now some "leftists" happen to be Atheists, and have no qualms about criticizing superstitious twaddle, whether that comes from Christians, Jews, or Muslims. Atheists are hardly likely to build any sort of mosque anywhere! But even Athiests recognize that religious freedom should apply to all to believe and disbelieve as they want, otherwise it isn't really freedom at all.

Wade runs away and hides again. Typical lib. Won't even listen to an opposing point of view.

If Perry becomes the Republican candidate I can honestly say I don't know what I will do. Can't vote for obama and I sure as hell will not vote for this bonehead.

Money bought BUSH the OFFICE

The same GAME is PERRY..

He is the CHOSEN ONE..!

I'll Bet a TRILLION ...Not by GOD.................................................................................

Red head and 90%+ of you have no clue about faith and redemption. Being a person of faith, politician or not, doesn't make you perfect or assure that you will make the right decision. Besides, he was addressing Liberty University, a place where redemption and faith are well understood - not always practiced in a way that pleases Jesus, but a place where the struggles with life decisions are understood and appreciated.

The bitterness and hatred expressed here on a daily basis shows how sad and truly lost & dying that we are as a nation. George Bush was certainly flawed as a person, but at least he faced his problems head on while treating others with respect. President Obama could learn a lesson in humility from GB. The current President isn't half the leader that GB was and we are all paying a steep price to learn this lesson.

Well, it's nice to see someone speak honestly. At least Perry saw he was heading in the wrong direction and made changes. What's the excuse for redhead and the rest of the libs here? They come across as totally lost and clueless. It must be so depressing always feeling angry like the libs do. They are critical of anyone who isn't a lib, yet ask them for solutions and they show the air between their ears. Not one of these libs have the guts or brains to explain what was in Obama's speech that would create any jobs. But, the good news is that everyone should now push for the American Jobs Act, HR 2911. It's finally been introduced into Congress. So write your rep and tell them to vote for it!

Have a nice day!

Every single born-again I'm aware of was a complete pr1ck throughout most of their formative years.

Jesus may forgive them, but I don't. If all you have to do to atone for the awful way you used to treat people is believe in a fairy tale and confess to a pedophile once in awhile, then you really haven't atoned for your sins. You haven't learned how to take responsibility for your own actions. Salvation shouldn't be that easy.

Perry doing what Perry does best......telling people what they want to hear. It's easy to tell people want they want to hear when you are as crooked as a roller coaster....

I would say that the way that fata$$ redhead seems to go on and on about rick perry that she has quite the crush on her texas stud. Hey fata$$ redhead, maybe if you quit double fisting McRibbs and lost a ton or two, you just might be in the ball park for your big texas stud muffin. On the other hand, probably not, due to the fact that you are too much of a disgusting pig.

Right on brother! Now tell me, just how do I post a vote for your comment?

Pastorized, did you notice that no one agreed with you?

Pathetic Bob in LA

Poor Bob 1805- still living in a FOX Fact world.

And how old are you?

Anyway I don't care about political entertainment shows like Fox and MSNBC, how about you big guy?

First there is no such thing as ObamaCare.

Obama said he liked calling it that. Funny but most people understand what I am talking about.

Second, the healthcare reform act is not the proposed changes made by Obama but a hybrid of Republican ideas and cave-in Democrats.

It is what it is and btw - America seems to think it sucks big time.

The original single payer crap? - yea right .... that had a real chance.

Regardless it is still a real POS.

Third- over 90% of the plan does not go into effect until 2014.

If you are real, real lucky.

fourth- the reason there are fewer insured people is because employer are dropping healthcare to line their pockets instead of offering group plans that employees can participate in

Obama didn't see that coming ..... everybody else with an IQ above 40 saw it coming.

I know ... its the employers fault ... they voted for the wrong guy and didn't get an Obama waiver, right.

Thanks for admitting that ObamaCare is a failed at the first thing it tried to do, though.

Obama isn't very good at this is he?

Sorry Wade -- nimrod's "lean forward" not only is not clever, nimrod needs to get new material. mmnord1969 -- Nobody cares...if you bend over and take one for your team. Progressives are tired of bending over backward to work with uncompromising Teabaggers like you.

As for redemption, conservatives only forgive Republicans. And it is liberals who protect your rights such freedom of religion. The day conservatives show concern for the poor, the elderly, the planet, is the day they will be true Christians.

I was raised Lutheran and have never understood the Southern Baptist's need to 'testify' when it's the same god-damned story.

Here's the reason piety sucks - it can be turned off and on in a heartbeat. It's for show.

Most of our presidents are not particularly religious men. But some knew God better than others.

TruePatriot-445959

Sorry Wade -- nimrod's "lean forward" not only is not clever, nimrod needs to get new material.

My point EXACTLY True. I have MSNBC half my day and see the "Lean Forward" sales pitch in the upper right of the screen.

What is it? Define it for my knuckle-dragging, Tea Party politic, angry-white male self? I'm just a dumb 'ol construction worker after all.

Lean Forward is NOT clever. Anyone with an once of brains knows that it is just MSNBC's socialist commercial.

Don't be a stooge for them TruePatriot......Be your own person, that's what made America great. I believe in your greatness True even if the liberals don't.

Redhead...!

Or should I Say YODA..?

These people fear YOU-- more than YOUR FACTS......................................................

Ya'll not Worthy

And you didn't Do the SAME G.W.BUSH--ROVE--& all these FAKE fiscal clowns REDEMPTION DANCE.........

According to "W.", Bush was a much nicer guy back when he drank a lot. I'd much rather have a regular idiot run things than have another holier-than-thou idiot screw us over in every possible way.

To borrow an "Evangelical Baptist" phrase. Thae'ee, gwad almighty! Perry is nothing more than a "penisized Palin".

HOLLA Old GOP! ;o)

Hope you liked it.........?

HOLLA Old GOP! ;o)

*winky wink* ;o)

So GLAD to have YOU on board!

republican, democrat, liberal, conservative, socialist, teabagger. whats the difference, a president will not change who we are as a nation, due diligence on behalf of the states leaders makes us a more powerful country, religion plays a part in everything, whether you are a believer or a non believer. Rick Perry believes in a god, so do most of us, if you don't, that's okay' because America is a nation founded under god that follows laws and allows religious freedom. whether you are atheist or non denomination, christian, Muslim, Buddhist. my friends have the right to not agree with me and i have the right to not agree with them, no matter what religion they hold onto. i guess point being is if rick perry wants to run for president, don't make fun of him for his religion, make fun of him for his politics. you can hurt more than gain bring up religion in politics

To all of you, you are so ignorants about Jesus, you need to lear more about him. what about start reading the Bible before you even post your comments.. And for anabanana it really hurts my heart that at 30 years old you were still going to school and have not control of yourself on how to manage your priorities wisely, that is a live example that you never knew Jesus. And yes He will forgive you just becuase that matter of fact that He is not like us. And the fact that you still alive and breathing that a clear testimony of his mercy for ungracefull people like you and I.

So let me see if I have this straight. First, he turned to God, but he wasn't making enough money. So then, he turned to Karl "Satan's right testicle wart" Rove, and is making plenty of money. But when he gets in front of the Falwellbots at Liberty, it's God he's touting? That about right? If his policies weren't so diametrically opposed to the teachings of Christ, he might pull off the lie, but you know...

Lynchburg said Bachmann can pass.

Where does the gop T-nut party get all their idiots from, like Perry, Bachmann & palin ?

Would you like your innocent little 12 year old to be " FORCED " that's right " FORCED " to have an INJECTION. Not me. The people of Texas want this Perry law removed.

no matter how many times i come to this site it remains one of the most vicious that i can find on the web. folks ridicule, denigrate, insult, spread hate, spread lies, show great intolerance for opposing views, resort to name calling when their intellect fails and on and on.

Perry sold his soul to the "Devil"- The T-Nut Party. Perry "WORSHIPS" the Rich.

A Messenger-2926105 Post # 1.77 How and where did you learn this? Please add links. I know little about him, but if he is just another one of "them" then................the same old song and we are screwed.

Isn't it interesting...Perry lost his way in church..but sure found his way to big business and their lobbyist. Pay must have been sooooo much better.

I think you all may have misunderstood. When Perry said he was "lost spiritually", he just meant that his parents dropped him off at the local church a few blocks from his house and he was too stupid to find his way home.

james-1937467

I know, isn't it absolutely disgusting? I certainly am guilty of the same sometimes. But usually I don't break down into name calling until some ignorant boob assaults me multiple times with insults.

Certainly on this thread alone I see plenty of what you refer to. Both sides do it. But on First Read the right is very prevalent. I'm amazed at how they swarm on posters like FeistyRedhead and DisabledNavyVet with insults simply because they post with facts and links to facts they disagree with. If you disagree then argue civilly.

But every day I come here and see at least 10-20 posts with people starting out their reply with "NastyRedhead" before yet another baseless attack containing no facts and all vitriol.

There are two restored comments on this thread that begin with "NastyRedhead".

Moderators Tyler and Sally:

If you read this you should know you shouldn't restore comments like that. Directly calling someone "Nasty" negates anything else in the post after it. It's a clear insult and a clear violation of the CoH.

Posts like that are rightfully collapsed and shouldn't be restored. I don't understand how you two let partisan trolls insult other posters like that all the time. But to restore their vitriol is nonsensical. If I'm not even an employee and I notice this all the time (on the right and left), how is it you're not seeing more of it and correcting it?

NP True Patriot, I have typed things in the heat of the moment too, I am a center left moderate republican who is 100 percent for the moderation the democrats are showing. I absolutely despise the TEA party and I refuse to play their game the way they choose too.

Dangerous Mind, if someone doesn't respond to my posts, I keep pushing until someone does. I don't confront people out of malice. I want people to think when they read my posts. When someone goes too far there is always the ignore option.

Seems like to me that Rick Perry is saying he can't walk and chew gum at the same time. He sure has a lot of reasons for bad grades.. but so do my kids. What does this say about him?

There are people among us who will do what is appropriate for the people, and the country as a whole,but such people are not as flashy as thoes who played on our egos,after all it was us the people who got turned on by their deceiving demeanor,and down we go.

hs321

How interesting to read how intolerant the party of tolerance and diversity are today.

(Word hypocrisy comes to mind.)

Yep...we wouldn't just "let him die" like our T-Bagger brethren.

"When they show you who they are...believe them!"

Ol_Doc

How intolerant you are condemning those who want to watch the uninsured die so they can save more money! You bigot! Isn't it funny when they get mad their intolerance isn't being tolerated?

Rick...Once you understand that the GOP only wants men they can manipulate from their back room, you see the pattern of decades of why certain men ended up in the White House. Each and every one of them, manipulatable.

"I was lost spiritually and emotionally" -- Rick Perry

And still a soulless political whore.

Beware the snake oil salesman.

amen..............

Go one folks beat up on this guy.

How soon you forget about Obama and his church; the one he sat in for 20 years of Sundays. His rev Wright who baptized his children.

If you recall their web site, which was quickly taken down, his church claimed to be "the chosen people." This was "disappeared" and cannot be located in the web archives.

Where is his holiness Wright today? Is Obama still praying with him?

Oh please. Every church of just about every religion on the planet talks about how they are "the chosen people".

You are projecting Dangerous Mind, while I appreciate your sentiments in responding to MrCool, not all religions take the stance Christianity is the only path in life. The faith I belong to prohibits the conversion of others. I will not say what my religion is, people who wish to practice it must find my path on their on.

MrCool, Obama did not write a book promising to dismantle social security, Rick Perry did and if he is elected I'm sure he will try too.

When Christ walked this planet he stressed sharing everything he had to help the poor. He drove the money lenders from the temple. He said to forgive your enemies. He said not to stand in judgement if others. My problem is with Christains who act like pharasees, not those who quietly walk the path Christ set out for those who choose to follow him. In the words of the Nazarene, MrCool, if you believe his way is the right way, "do thou like wise."

What's the difference between Liberty University and a Taliban madrassa? Nothing. It's all about brainwashing children. Ricky Parry is the Texas Taliban.

Well for one thing, women are welcome to study at Liberty University. For another there are no classes in bomb making or IED construction. Calling Rick Perry the Texas Taliban is the same as calling Obama a muslim immigrant.

"What's the difference between Liberty University and a Taliban madrassa"

This is a worst spin I ever heard, the progrssive Columbia University Alma Matter of Obama welcome with open arms to the Iranian dictator, I wonder what university is closer to aTaliban madrassa.

I absolutely agree with you, me4texas. I don't blame Islam for 9/11, I blame religion itself. The lesson of 9/11 is the evil that any man is capable of when he puts faith above reason.

The Christian schools may not be teaching bomb-making, but they are giving children nonsensical reasons to hate/fear others who are different from them.

All I see is religion giving people reasons to hate each other that would not otherwise exist.

Yest one more glaring example of why Romney is a better candidate for president. While Perry was bumbling his way through college Romney was valedictorian at BYU (a very tough school) While Perry was getting drunk and doing who knows what else Romney was earning his Jurist Doctorate and his MBA from Harvard AT THE SAME TIME. And graduated in the top 5% of his class in both. While perry was losing his faith in God Romney was dedicating two and a half years of his life to charitable ministry in France.

Look, if this country wants great leadership then we need to elect a great leader. Somebody who has spent their life being better than average. We can't afford another president who was a screw up but somehow found his way back to god and then straight into politics. We need somebody who has always known who he is and what he stands for. More importantly what America stands for. Romney is the only candidate who has fit that bill in our life time. We need Romney a lot more than he needs the presidency, and yet he is still willing to serve. I think we should be smart for once and let him.

Interesting discussion. For those that say the university is brainwashing children, have you attended? Do you know what goes on in the classrooms? Do you really believe that professors are actually teaching their students to hate/fear others that are different from them? Sorry to burst your bubble, but the answer is no. Just because someone has different views or believes something different, that's absolutely no reason to hate, judge, disrespect, and/or fear them, but rather accept them for who they are. It's easy to make generalizations and point fingers, but what good does that do? It's also important to realize that we're all human, we're going to make mistakes throughout our lives [yes, even including those in politics].

“This country is your country as well. Don’t leave it to a bunch of Washington politicians to tell you how to live your life,” Perry said at the school....."

Of course not. Just vote for me - a politician - so I can go to Washington and tell you how to live your life.

Nope, no hypocrisy there.....

Just to expand upon this, here's some more from his speech:

"At another point in the speech he said that "Christian values" should be given supremacy over other religions in guiding the U.S. government.

"America is going to be guided by some set of values. The question is gonna be, whose values?" Perry said. "It's those Christian values that this country was based upon."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/14/rick-perry-faith-foreign-policy-liberty-university-evangelical-christian_n_962274.html?ref=barack-obama

But remember, he's not some Washington politician telling anyone else how to live their lives or anything.....well, at least not anyone who's Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, or tree-worshipping, anyway.....

And most of our founding fathers were NOT christians, they were Deists. That is why the First Amendment included freedom of (and from) religion. But modern politicians have no understanding of what that means (nor do the voters who continue to vote in all of these idiot politicians.)

awesome

ccinSt.Louis...Hypocrisy from a red state politician is part of the Book of Genesis...or so they'd have you believe.

That would be great if he had a brain. I'm from Texas and would like to tell everyone in the country DON'T VOTE FOR HIM!!!!! He has ruined Texas and will do the same to the rest of our country if elected. Surely you people can see through him.

**** Also, I think he wears a toupe'e....his hair on top just doesn't look right to me. Just couldn't resist throwing that in. lol

Actually I just wish he would shut the f*** up already. We get it, you love the Invisble sky man. Youre a Juke box with one song.

It's those Christian values that this country was based upon."

I am getting sick and tired of morally bankrupt "values" Americans trying to claim they have TRUE "Christian values". The teavangelicals have values that don't even remotely conform to the message Jesus taught. They are harshly critical of anybody who doesn't think like they do, they worship the almighty dollar and they lack compassion and understanding for their fellow man. Do ANY organized religions actually care that the true word is being perverted? I am sick of their proclamations of superior morality, which is a delusion.

"At another point in the speech he said that "Christian values" should be given supremacy over other religions in guiding the U.S. government.

What happened to seperation of church and state?

Amy,

why do you attack a man's personal religious beliefs?

One could just as well attack what you just said, also:

By saying that serious people wrestle with the deep issues of God and destiny.

while shallow people think knowing God is akin to drinking a beer, giving you a warm feeling.

Bob, serious people keep their spiritual journeys to themselves. Politicians turn their conversions into a Talking Point.

Amy you must not know the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. You remember Jacob wrestling with Jesus (the Angel of the Lord)?

Do you remember the disciples wrestling with their faith when Jesus was arrested?

Perhaps you remember the story of the prodigal son?

Any honest person who seeks answers to life and an acknowledgement of God has wrestled with God.

Pastor Larry Robinson

Well Pastor. Last time I checked the Constitution we Americans have the right to believe in the "God" of our choice OR not to believe at all. Then again as Carl Sagan said: "I would rather KNOW than believe." Hopefully you can comprehend the nuance and try to grasp the meaning of the "scientific method."

Larry, you are probably correct; however, I don't recall Jacob using his story to campaign for high office or Jesus or the prodigal son (oh, wait, I always forget about W),...

There is wrestling and then there is campaign rhetoric and me thinks the 10 year governor of Texas is being phony. Sorry; but I am just not buying snake oil today.

I am however reminded of the biblical reference to heed those who live a life pleasing to the Lord rather than paying heed to the guy on the corner PROFESSING to know the Lord,...

color me skeptical. Perry represents the Facta non verba wing of the 'christian' coalition.

Yeah Amy, you actually have to read the Bible to understand what Perry is talking about. So as a liberal we don't expect you to understand what he is talking about.

Ok Ray I got it...Liberals are bad Christians and Godless just like the Jews who don't have a "personal relationship" with Jesus...I understand now.

Ray W.:

Q. Do you know what they call someone who has read the Bible from cover to cover?

A. An atheist.

The Bible is full of fables, contradictions, has been revised, redacted, translated, and butchered so many times it's ridiculous.

How you deal with your god is between you and that god. Perry belongs in divinity school, not on the campaign trail if spouting this nonsense is his mission.

So are you saying that people who talk about their faith don't have a right to run for office? What about our current president? He has repeatedly said he is a Christian and has defended his faith. He has even said he seeks guidance from God in running this country. Why does he have the right and others do not?

seen too much:

I really hate posts like yours. So are you saying blah, blah, blah? I said exactly what I said.

However, I'll answer your idiotic questions in no particular order.

No!

He is brown.

I don't know.

By the way, the President has NOT defended his faith. He has said he has faith in his god, and that he is not a Muslim. You know damned good and well why he has had to do that.

Lastly, I think atheists would be quite pleased if everyone kept their faith to themselves.

The game we used to play in school - didn't anyone else do this? You have a long line of people. The one at the end whispers to the next person, the next person in turn whispers the same message, until the last person. The last person says out loud what was whispered. And lo and behold, it wasn't even close to what the first person had said. That is your bible folks. Word of mouth over many years.

I have read the bible twice and yes David Walker - I am now an atheist. But you certainly wouldn't hear me ever applaud over a gentleman that does not have health care coverage and would die - as the Tea Party people did at the debate. And I'm sure their God was applauding right along with them - right? Was this how we were all brought up to applaud and cheer about death?

David...."Lastly, I think atheists would be quite pleased if everyone kept their faith to themselves."

Just curious...does that also apply to atheist as well?

Amy...I don't trust any man who suddenly grows a God, starts to realize he was born with knees to kneel up or who suddenly discovers he has an immortal soul. All this after years of blackhearted BS. When men begin to pontificate to others and women in particular, what are they really hiding?

David Walker-

Here is what I have noticed. You willingly came to this page and commented several times. You even wrote "the invisible man in the sky". You then wrote "atheists would be pleased if everyone kept their faith to themselves" Boy, it really sounds like you practice what you preach. Do you have any other words of wisdom? Can you teach other Atheists the ways of your hypocrisy? This country was founded on freedom of religion, and whether you like it or not, religion isn't going anywhere. Maybe you should follow your Atheist leaders such as Richard Dawkins, who claims to be a "cultural Christian" Maybe you should try to treat others how you would like to be treated. I think that is a message in the Bible that everyone can agree upon. And if you are atheist/secular/humanist and truly believe in that, then you fully understand that this is the only life you have on Earth, and your time here could be much better spent NOT fighting with those people who do have faith in a higher power.

Yea David, keep your atheist ism to your self, we know there is a GOD, and we pray to him and love him, and if we want to say GOD's name and pray to him why should it brother you, you don't believe in HIM. Why does it brother you when we do or say things about a GOD you don't believe exists

Elise, what you said is a common misperception about the Bible. Here's what one of your fellow atheists had to say:

Ehrman's book is an engaging one, and his explanation of text criticism method invites no complaints. But one impression with which he leaves the reader – that New Testament manuscripts have been changed so badly that we can't know what the originals said about theologically important matters – is misleading.
If one wants to undermine the reliability of the New Testament, one better not do it through textual criticism. The New Testament contains by far the best-attested and most reliably reconstructed5 texts of the ancient world.6
It is much easier to undermine the reliability of the New Testament using its own numerous contradictions and inherent implausibility.

from commonsenseatheism.com

"Ehrman's book" is a book called Misquoting Jesus, which claims that there are so many variants in the texts of the New Testament that it is impossible to determine what the original version said. The article quoted above is by Luke Muehlhauser and is a review of Misquoting Jesus. The article by Mr. Muehlhauser also says:

But of course Ehrman knows (p 87) that the vast number of textual variants we have is a blessing not a curse, because his books for a scholarly audience spend every page using those variants to reconstruct the original text. In comparison, we can do no such thing with the works of Plato: our earliest manuscript comes 1200 years after Plato lived! We have no hope of reconstructing Plato's original text, but when it comes to the New Testament we have thousands of copies, and dozens of manuscripts from within just two centuries of the originals.
Compare the pessimism of Misquoting Jesus with the optimism expressed in Ehrman and Metzger's The Text of the New Testament, page 126:
Besides textual evidence derived from New Testament Greek manuscripts and from early versions, the textual critic compares numerous scriptural quotations used in commentaries, sermons, and other treatises written by early church fathers. Indeed, so extensive are these citations that if all other sources for our knowledge of the text of the New Testament were destroyed, they would be sufficient alone for the reconstruction of practically the entire New Testament.

also from commonsenseatheism.com
No doubt the author of the article considers it a "blessing" because he is a textual critic or some such scholar and wishes to discover and study the actual text not because he is a believer in the Bible as above in the first quote.

No one would be attacking his religious beliefs if he wasn't using them to pander at LU to get elected.

I have generally experienced Christain ethics to be extremely fluid and flexible depending upon the situation and the outcome desired. (The only group I know of that has a legitimate right to call itself pro-life is the Catholic church which opposes abortion, assisted suicide and the death penalty.)

Just Curious:

For starters, I am not running for President. I do not ask my fellow citizens to pray for rain. I'm pretty sure you can check my posts and you will find that nowhere do I identify myself as an atheist. However, you are correct, that is the case. Really now, do you think I should be comforted to think that my President consults with the invisible guy in the sky? Should I be comfortable thinking he actually expects an answer? I sat in church, Sunday School, and many similar venues. I never once heard the voice of the magical one speak to me or anyone else. Oh yeah, I'm reassured. My President is hearing the voices again.

The truth about atheists is this. We do not KNOW there is no god. It seems unlikely as Dawkins has said in his book. Atheists - to the best of my knowledge - have no leaders. (How do you suppose that would go? Fearless leader says this is what NOT to believe! Don't believe in what isn't there? Give me a break.)

No, I do not know that this is the only life that I have on earth. That seems likely to me, but I do not KNOW that, nor do you. You simply have faith that is the case.

Don't give me that crap about fighting with those who have faith in a higher power. I couldn't begin to tell you the incredible carnage that has come at the hands of those people who have faith in a higher power. I didn't take the fight to them. They brought it to me, and if you think I'm going to turn the other cheek after watching the likes of Christians like President Bush, then you are far beyond delusional - you are completely out of your mind.

Derf:

You do not KNOW there is a god. You have faith that there is a god - no more and no less.

If there really is a god, may she strike me dead this very insta

Yea David, keep your atheist ism to your self, we know there is a GOD, and we pray to him and love him, and if we want to say GOD's name and pray to him why should it brother you, you don't believe in HIM. Why does it brother you when we do or say things about a GOD you don't believe exists

Pray if you want, it harms me not. But under the rules of Freedom, if you want to have the right to share your gospel and evangelize, you must also grant Atheists the right to state their doctrines in public, too.

It doesn't bother me that Perry is religious, or states his religious beliefs, but when he makes the blatantly incorrect assertion that the US is "founded on Christian principles", we have the right to call him out on that error. We do not need a President that doesn't understand the basic principles of Religious Freedom.

Pastor Larry Robinson:

Next time you enlighten us about the god of Abraham, perhaps you will be good enough to note that the god of Abraham is also the god of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. You might even go a step further when it comes to these wrestling matches and point out that is precisely what jihad is all about.

A lot alike, those Abrahamic god types - know what I mean?

If Perry actually wrestled wit hGod his leg would be out of joint just as in the bible. Perrywas speaking metamorphically not litteraly.

I woud like tothank the poster who gave us the rest of Perry's speech including thelines about "Chistian values". This bring us to Aticle 3 Section 9 inthe Consitution which says "There shall be no religious test for public office." Clearly Perry's statement is a disrect violationof that consitutional requiremnt and should rule him unqualified for public office because he byhis statement means to apply areligius test. There for ip so facto he is ielegblble to be President

All it woud take is a good Democraitc lawyer to invoke theConsitituion the Repblicans wax so eloquently about-and the sooner the better.

David Walker:

You rock. Carnage indeed. Faith in a higher power is the reason two planes slammed into the side of the twin towers. How about the Crusades? Was that a "peaceful" feeling? All the fighting and hatred between religious sects tells me enough; just STAY AWAY from the great invisible man in the sky. The egyptians were wrong about their gods, the Greeks were wrong about their gods, and the Romans were too freakin' lazy to come up with their own gods, they just used the Greeks! Anybody see a pattern here?

Go David walker, I am with you. Faithful people like Perry scares the hell out of me as Coolewater points out. Given the opportunity I have no doubt the Crusades will once again be set upon those who do not pledge allegiance to the Perry types.

The more they believe the less they know, I want a president that is truly knowledgeable.

Love this thread,...

Spanish Inquisitions come to mind? If you don't believe like 'our nation', we will make you bellieve OR make you go into hiding. Evangelism is seriously scary with these false profits leading the way. (typo intentional and accurate!)

Ewent, if you count only people who happen to have been born and raised as Christians to be true in their faith, your view of Christianity is skewed. Christianity is all about redemption - everyone makes their mistakes, no matter WHO they are, and eventually they have to come to terms with that and beg forgiveness for their shortcomings. Governor Perry is actually very humble in coming out and saying he's made mistakes, especially in a world where politicians try to convince everyone they were born under a golden sun and have walked among the stars their entire lives (whereas really, we know that most of them have more baggage than is decent in a human being). Perry comes out and admits his shortcomings, while making his audience aware that he will always strive to do the best he can do. We're all human beings, and none of us is perfect. If there /is/ a perfect form of government, we definitely will never come across it, or we'd corrupt it with our corrupt leaders. Perry is wonderful enough to willingly take the heat for being a Christian - and Christians ARE looked down upon as stupid in our world. The irony of our culture is that politicians are supposed to attend church (or at least have a church that they supposedly attend), but they're not supposed to be a practicing Christian. Go figure. xD Perry's honesty and willingness to take criticism for his beliefs has earned my respect.

...

Seen Too Much, I see bits of the truth in every book I read, The truth has not been obliterated completey even in the bible. Look at the sermon on the mount. Look at where Paul is explicit about the virtues of unselfish love. The last four of the ten commandments are good guidelines for anyone to follow.

"Wherefore their fruits ye shall know them." Mt 7 verse 20, "Beware of false prophets, that come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." Mt 7 verse 15.

When ever I see Perry speak, I do not see a Christain, I see a ravening wolf who doesn't care about human beings after they born. I see a man who will do anything, say anything to win the white house. I see a man who will put political gain over the good of the country. This is a man who wanted Texas to secede from the Union. This man is not fit to be a Dog catcher let alone president of the United States.

I'm not trying to promote Perry or any other candidate. I was only speaking about the Bible in my comment #6.16. Otherwise, I was only interested in fairness and freedom of speech/religion for all candidates.

As am I seen too much. I want to use scripture to make a point about free speech and freedom of religion.

I am a Christian by choice and I've found that there are many factors and motivations that go into that decision. I personally didn't have to hit rock bottom but I certainly know people where that has been the case. My issue with Mr. Perry is that he attempts to mix church and state, which should never be attempted, if that is the case are we any better than a Muslim country that believes in Sharia law?

Mav- do you know anything about our nation's history?

Our founders were emphatic that the foundation of our liberty and this republic WAS SPECIFIC TO OUR CHRISTIANITY.

“Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty as well as the privilege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers." -John Jay, Constitutional Framer and 1^st Chief Justice of the Supreme Court

"What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ." - President George Washington Speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs, May 12, 1779

“It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”-Patrick Henry

MARYLAND SUPREME COURT, 1799: "Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people. By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty."

“The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. . . . I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and the attributes of God.” (John Adams Letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813)

James Madison, Father of the U.S. Constitution - “We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government; upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to The Ten Commandments of God.”

From the Library of Congress (Religion and the Federal Govt)

“It is no exaggeration to say that on Sundays in Washington during the administrations of Thomas Jefferson (1801-1809) and of James Madison (1809-1817) the state became the church. Within a year of his inauguration, Jefferson began attending church services in the House of Representatives. Madison followed Jefferson's example, although unlike Jefferson, who rode on horseback to church in the Capitol, Madison came in a coach and four. Worship services in the House--a practice that continued until after the Civil War--were acceptable to Jefferson because they were nondiscriminatory and voluntary. Preachers of every Protestant denomination appeared. (Catholic priests began officiating in 1826.) As early as January 1806 a female evangelist, Dorothy Ripley, delivered a camp meeting-style exhortation in the House to Jefferson, Vice President Aaron Burr, and a "crowded audience." Throughout his administration Jefferson permitted church services in executive branch buildings. The Gospel was also preached in the Supreme Court chambers.”

and through our history

in 1854 the United States House of Representatives declared `It [religion] must be considered as the foundation on which the whole structure rests … Christianity; in its general principles, is the great conservative element on which we must rely for the purity and permanence of free institutions’;

President Franklin D. Roosevelt not only led the Nation in a 6 minute prayer during D-Day on June 6, 1944, but he also declared that “If we will not prepare to give all that we have and all that we are to preserve Christian civilization in our land, we shall go to destruction’;

ANDREW Jackson, the seventh President of the United States, asserted that, "The Bible is the Book upon which this Republic rests."

"The fundamental basis of this nation's laws was given to Moses on the Mount. The fundamental basis of our Bill of Rights comes from the teachings we get from Exodus and Saint Matthew, from Isaiah and Saint Paul. I don't think we emphasize that enough these days. If we don't have a proper fundamental moral background, we will finally end up with a totalitarian government which does not believe in rights for anybody except the State!"--Harry Truman

Larry: The Nasty Redhead is going to read your post #7.2 and her head will spin 360 degrees just like Regan's in The Exorcist. Thanks for the visual.

Sorry, Larry, you couldn't be more wrong.

and you are no better then someone supporting Sharia Law. You are free to live your life however you want. Stop trying to tell me how to live mine. Your moral values have no place in forming law because law is not about moral values it is about protecting natural rights. I repeat Live your life how you see fit and stay out of trying to control others to think like you

Since when did Perry say he hit "rock bottom" in life. He was wrestling with God spiritually.

“My faith journey is not the story of someone who turned to God because I wanted to,” he said. “It was because I had nowhere else to turn.”

As usual, we're missing the larger picture in favor of quibbling over semantics at this point, Ray, but "nowhere else to turn" sure sounds an awful lot like "rock bottom" to me.....

Larry, very nice selections, all of which back up your own personal viewpoints well. That said, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were written during the "enlightenment." This was an age where many were looking to science for answers. This included people like Franklin and Jefferson. Both of them might at best be described as "CE" people, and they probably didn't show up at church even for those holidays. Washington often spoke of "Providence," but never used the names of "God," "Jesus," or for that matter, "Lord." I guess I am saying that you are using a very broad brush when you say that all of the founding fathers were extremely religious, when many intellectual people at the time were not very religious at all. It is very obvious that they desired a secular government. All in all, I think we as Americans have for many years deified the founding fathers when indeed they were flawed humans like us. We take their words out of context in some attempt to get sound bites out of them and use fragments of their writings to advance our own agendas. The Constitution of the United States is a very short, concise document that is left open for interpretation for a reason. They wanted the Constitution to meet the needs of their posterity. They wanted the Constitution to be a living document. To ask what the founding fathers would have thought of one issue or another is completely irrelevant. They have long ago passed that responsibility to us to interpret for ourselves.

Larry Robinson: The problem with the quotations you cite is not in the quotations themselves, but in YOUR interpretation of them. The founding fathers disagreed every bit as much on their various interpretations of Christianity as we do today. Jefferson, for example, believed Christ was the Great Moral Teacher, but not divine. To that end, when Jefferson made his proposal for a public school system in his country, Virginia," he included 100 elementary schools, 20 secondary schools, and 1 university. He originally thought he would suggest William and Mary College, but in the end, he believed it was too "Christian." He preferred instead that it be a state university and he spent the last several years of his life developing the plans---architectural, curricular, hiring the faculty, etc. of his ideal university---The University of Virginia. The University of Virginia today is still called Mr. Jefferson's University. By the way, you remember, too, that several little Congregationalist ladies in New England buried their Bibles because they were convinced Jefferson, when he became President, would require the government to collect all the Bibles and burn them. Also, you might consider reading Jefferson's "The Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom." Jefferson, as did almost all of the founders of the Constitution (Jefferson did not attend the Philadelphia Convention as he was in Paris as our Minister to France), agreed that the Federal Government should be free of any given religion, but that each religion should be allowed to practice freely in the Republic.

John Adams, the 2nd President of the USA, became a Unitarian toward the end of his life. James Madison, Jr. who is considered to be the Father of the Constitution, was a Deist as was Jefferson and Franklin. Also, Article XI of the Treaty of Friendship ratified by the U.S. Senate during Adam's Administration says and I quote: "...the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion."

There is nothing in the Constitution of the United States of America declaring Christianity is the state religion of this Republic. Jefferson, Washington, Adams, Franklin, Madison, all called for freedom of worship for ALL faiths; they believed all faiths should be allowed to practice freely and that the federal government should make certain that occurs. The Holy Bible was seen as a great moral document, but they went no further than that because they knew better than you seem to that the terrible religious wars that ravaged Europe for years could easy come to our shores, if they set up a Christian state. Think about it: Baptists can't get along today; there is still hostility between some Lutheran faiths and the Catholics; some Christians hate Jews and Muslims; I could go on and on. Our founding fathers, led by Jefferson and Madison in their Bill of Rights, wisely chose not to declare the United States of America a Christian state. As a result, every American can practice his or her faith freely because that freedom is protected by our Bill of Rights. Leave the Bill of Rights alone! It protects us all!

Pastor Larry -

I have no idea what your denomination is, and one of the hot-button issues is that "my Christianity is better than yours is".

That's why some of us look inwards rather than wearing their religion on their sleeves.

The following for me is a fundamental statement of belief, and a way of living.

From the Book of Common Prayer...

Hear what our Lord Jesus Christ saith:

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. Matthew 22:37-40

That's it. Simple.

The "love thyself" is not narcissism, it's not greed, it's looking into your heart and listening to what's there. I don't need a politician to do it, and I don't need a "fire and brimstone" fanatic to do it. If others do, it's their choice, and in this country we can practice religion (or not) in what our hearts dictate.

One of my joys in life is going to early services and "communing" without the noise. And one of the most important parts is a period of time for reflection of our place in the universe and connecting with others in "The Peace".

If you have ever been to Notre Dame or Saint Chapelle in Paris, or the cathedral in Reims, the "presence" is unmistakeable. Taking ones self out of the tourist crowds, the peace and awe is there, and has been the for hundreds of years.

Hey Larry - I guess slavery didn't count? Christian principles and actually being true to them in deed are entirely two different things. As great as they were the founding fathers kicked that can down the road and the Civil War was the result. I know this country's history and so do the people persecuted throughout it, just ask a Native American. Our differences make us great it's people like you that use those differences to divide us...

Larry, I have the king james version on my andriod cell phone phone in two versions. Nook ebook and audible readings. I have it there because I am a non christain who feels it's vital to my survival to know what it says. Jews got along with pagans for as they do because they do not feel the not feel the need to force their beliefs on others. The hardest thing I had to unlearn was the need to convert others to my beliefs.

The constitution states very clearly that the country is to have NO state religion. It protects my right to be a pagan, or an atheist, a buddist, hindu, jewish, a muslim, which of those six I am is no ones business but my own.

Larry,

Those are some very excellent quotes from the founding fathers. However, I have a quote that trumps all of those:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

They may have all been Christian and wanted a moral, Christian nation, but they made it pretty clear that they did not want religion entangled with government. Period.

You mean activist judges? we should have activist judges? you mean we should move in the direction of activist judges? then were would the dred scott decision lie? activist? plessy v ferguson? marbury v madison?

when will we stop having these activist judges? nobody wants to leave the 18th century...a living document? no i say stay in the 18th century no civil rights no women's rights no workers rights just the plantation owner telling us what to do...did i say plantation owner i meant hedge fund manager or richard mellon scaife one of those guys anyways cause we're all self-haters since we're angry about not being able to balance the budget on those less fortunate lets blame them for 2007's fiasco and the consolidation wealth that has grown so much since the 80's. yes rms earn his wealth he's at least a 3rd generation inheritant they must be protected.

Great Sarcasm talkingtoyou. I had my doubts about your post until I read your column.

The very simple and glaringly obvious truth that we are a secular and NOT Christian society is that we have NO state religion. None. Now, historical revisionists are trying to scrape together bits here and there to paint a different picture, but everyone that is honest knows the truth.

"A lie repeated often enough becomes the truth." Lenin

It seems there are some American Christians that are taking lessons from history's great philosophers. *sarcasm*

To reinforce hambone johnson's post I add that in America there is to be "no religious test", and James Madison wrote: "Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by ecclesiastical bodies may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history." Government should not be run like Brother Love's Travelling Salvation Show.

lots of interesting responses, I'll note a couple of major themes that deserve followup

1. Jefferson attended services every week in the Capitol Building while he was president

2. the Unitarian faith during the time of the Founders was very different than it is today

Unitarianism appeared in America as early as 1785; its doctrines were stated by William Ellery Channing in 1819, with the American Unitarian Association being formed in 1825. The Theological Dictionary of 1823 described Unitarians thusly:

In common with other Christians, they confess that He [Jesus] is the Christ, the Son of the Living God; and in one word, they believe all that the writers of the New Testament, particularly the four Evangelists, have stated concerning him.

Early Unitarian faith is not the same as Unitarians now. In fact, the early Unitarians published a pamphlet entitled An Answer to the Question, "Why Do You Attend a Unitarian Church?" Notice some of the eighteen reasons:

• Because the Unitarians reject all human creeds and articles of faith, and strictly adhere to the great Protestant principle, "the Bible -- the Bible only;" admitting no standard of Christian truth, nor any rule of Christian practice, but the words of the Lord Jesus and his Apostles. . . .

• Because at the Unitarian Church I hear Jesus of Nazareth who was crucified, preached as the Christ, the son of the living God. . . .

• Because Unitarians teach the doctrine of "the true grace of God." -- His unmerited, unpurchased favor to mankind, -- that salvation and eternal life are his free gifts through Jesus Christ; which is clearly the doctrine of Scripture . . . .

• Because there the crucified Jesus is exalted, as having attained his high dignity and glory, and His appointment to be the Saviour and Judge of the world. . . .

• Because there the necessity of personal righteousness is insisted on, and the spirit of Christ and conformity to His example, made essential to genuine Christianity.

both the First Amendment and the Religious test clause are not about keeping Christianity out of our Govt, it was about DENOMINATIONALISM. Everything the Founders said and did validates that Christianity was at the center of our govt and the principles of liberty.

They established Christian Chaplains in the House and Senate in their first few days and it continues to this day. As I noted, they held services every week in the Capitol Building and in The Supreme Court; Washington and Jefferson both had funding for teaching about Jesus in schools.

Madison and the notes of the Constitutional Convention clearly state that the Founders were ensuring that no one Christian denomination would be established as was done in England and France.

The Founders sought to ensure that Christianity was at the heart of our principles and character, but that NO Denomination would be the official religion as was the case in Europe

To quote from McGOWAN v. MARYLAND, 366 U.S. 420 (1961)

Here, a brief review of the First Amendment's background proves helpful. The First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. . . ." U.S. Const., Amend. I. The Amendment was proposed by James Madison on June 8, 1789, in the House of Representatives. It then read, in part:

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretext, infringed." (Emphasis added.) I Annals of Congress 434.

We are told that Madison added the word "national" to meet the scruples of States which then had an established church. 1 Stokes, Church and State in the United [366 U.S. 420, 441] States, 541. After being referred to committee, it was considered by the House, on August 15, 1789, acting as a Committee of the Whole. Some assistance in determining the scope of the Amendment's proscription of establishment may be found in that debate.

In its report to the House, the committee, to which the subject of amendments to the Constitution had been submitted, recommended the insertion of the language, "no religion shall be established by law." I Annals of Congress 729. Mr. Gerry "said it would read better if it was, that no religious doctrine shall be established by law." Id., at 730. Mr. Madison "said, he apprehended the meaning of the words to be, that Congress should not establish a religion, and enforce the legal observation of it by law, nor compel men to worship God in any manner contrary to their conscience. . . . He believed that the people feared one sect might obtain a pre-eminence, or two combine together, and establish a religion to which they would compel others to conform." Id., at 730-731.

The Amendment, as it passed the House of Representatives nine days later, read, in part:

"Congress shall make no law establishing religion. . . ." Records of the United States Senate, 1A-C2 (U.S. Nat. Archives).

It passed the Senate on September 9, 1789, reading, in part:

"Congress shall make no law establishing articles of faith, or a mode of worship. . . ." Ibid.

James Madison Federalist 52-Religious Test Clause

FEBRUARY 11, 1788

Since the Federal Constitution has had so calm, dispassionate, and rational a discussion, and so happy an issue, in the late worthy Convention of this state, I did not expect any members of that honorable body to be challenged in a newspaper, and especially by name and by anonymous writers, on account of their opinion, or decently expressing their sentiments relative to the great subject then under consideration or any part of it. Nor do I yet see the propriety or happy issue of such a proceeding. However, as a gentleman in your paper feels uneasy that every sentiment contained in his publications (tho in general they are well written) is not received with perfect acquiescence and submission, I will endeavor to satisfy' him, or the candid reader, by the same channel that I am not so reprehensible as he supposes, in the matter referred to.

When the clause in the 6th Article, which provides that "no religious test should ever be required as a qualification to any office Or trust, etc." came under consideration, I observed I should have chose that sentence, and anything relating to a religious test, had been totally omitted rather than stand as it did; but still more wished something of the kind should have been inserted, but with a reverse sense so far as to require an explicit acknowledgment of the being of a God, His perfections, and His providence, and to have been prefixed to, and stand as, the first introductory ords of the Constitution in the following or similar terms, viz.: *We the people of the United Slates, in a firm belief of the being and perfections of the one living and true God, the creator and supreme Governor of the world, in His universal providence and the authority of His laws: that He will require of ail moral agents an account of their conduct, that all rightful powers among men are ordained of, and mediately derived from God, therefore in a dependence oil His blessing and acknowledgment of His efficient protection in establishing our Independence, whereby it is become necessary to agree upon and settle a Constitution of federal government for ourselves,* and in order to form a more perfect union, etc., as it is expressed in the present introduction, do ordain, etc. And instead of none, that no other religious testshould ever he required, etc. And that supposing, but not granting, this would be no security at all, that it would make hypocrites etc.;: yet this would not be a sufficient reason against it, as it would be a public declaration against, and disapprobation of, men who did not, even with sincerity, make such a profession, and they must be left to the Searcher of Hearts; that it would, however, be the voice of the great body of the people and an acknowledgment proper and highly becoming them to express on this great and only occasion, and, according to the course of Providence, one means of obtaining blessings from the Most High. But that since it was not, and so difficult and dubious to get it inserted, I would not wish to make it a capital objection; that I had no more idea of a religious test which should restrain offices to any particular sect, class, or denomination of men or Christians, in the long list of diversity, than to regulate their bestowments by tile stature or. dress of the candidate. Nor did I believe one sensible catholic man in the state wished for such a limitation; and that therefore the newspaper observations and reasonings (I named no author) against a test, in favor of any one denomination of Christians, and the sacrilegious injunctions of the test laws of England, etc., combated objections which did not exist and was building up a man of straw and Knocking him down again. These are the same and only ideas and sentiments I endeavored to communicate on that subject, tho perhaps not precisely in the same terms, as I had not written, nor preconceived them, except the proposed test; and whether there is any reason in them or not, I submit to the public.

I freely confess such a test and acknowledgment would have given me great additional satisfaction; and I conceive the arguments against it, on the score of hypocrisy, would apply with equal force against requiring an oath from any officer of the united or individual states, and, with little abatement, to any oath in any case whatever. But divine and human wisdom, with universal experience, have approved and established them as useful and a security to mankind.

Larry Robinson-1323081 Mav- do you know anything about our nation's history? Our founders were emphatic that the foundation of our liberty and this republic WAS SPECIFIC TO OUR CHRISTIANITY.

None of those quotes you mentioned are in the Constitution, nor are any of them law. All you've proven is that some of the Founding Fathers were Christians - hardly surprising in a religiously free nation. There is no mention of God or Jesus or Jehova anywhere in the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence, nor are there any scriptural references, nor are any of the Constitutional principles to be found anywhere in the Bible.

There are only two references to religion in the Constitution and its Amendments. "No religious test shall ever be required for any public office of trust" and "Congress shall make no law endorsing an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". Both those references enforces a strict neutrality in religious matters, neither one supports the notion of a "Christian Nation".

On the question of slavery, the founders and Christianity, most were indeed committed to abolishing slavery. Even at the beginning of the civil war, less than 10% of Americans were involved in slavery.

Jefferson introduced, Congress passed, and Jefferson signed, a bill prohibiting any

further importation of slaves as of the earliest date the Constitution permitted: January 1, 1808.

http://www.temple.edu/lawschool/dpost/slavery.PDF

The Northwest Ordinance Act of 1787 banned slavery in the new territories. ""There shall be neither slavery nor involuntary servitude in the said territory".

Founding Fathers (signers of Declaration of Independence and/or Constitution) who were members of societies for ending slavery included Benjamin Franklin, Benjamin Rush, William Livingston, John Adams, George Washington, John Jay, Richard Bassett, James Madison, James Monroe, Bushrod Washington, Charles Carroll, William Few, John Marshall, Richard Stockton, Zephaniah Swift, John Dickenson, Charles Carroll, Luther Martin, John Witherspoon and others.

"Domestic slavery is repugnant to the principles of Christianity... It is rebellion against the authority of a common Father. It is a practical denial of the extent and efficacy of the death of a common Savior. It is an usurpation of the prerogative of the great Sovereign of the universe who has solemnly claimed an exclusive property in the souls of men."

-Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence.

"It were doubtless to be wished, that the power of prohibiting the importation of slaves had not been postponed until the year 1808, or rather that it had been suffered to have immediate operation. But it is not difficult to account, either for this restriction on the general government, or for the manner in which the whole clause is expressed. It ought to be considered as a great point gained in favor of humanity, that a period of twenty years may terminate forever, within these States, a traffic which has so long and so loudly upbraided the barbarism of modern policy; that within that period, it will receive a considerable discouragement from the federal government, and may be totally abolished, by a concurrence of the few States which continue the unnatural traffic, in the prohibitory example which has been given by so great a majority of the Union. Happy would it be for the unfortunate Africans, if an equal prospect lay before them of being redeemed from the oppressions of their European brethren!"
-- James Madison, Federalist Paper No. 42

"There is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do, to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it." -- George Washington, letter to Robert Morris, April 12, 1786

"It is much to be wished that slavery may be abolished. The honour of the States, as well as justice and humanity, in my opinion, loudly call upon them to emancipate these unhappy people. To contend for our own liberty, and to deny that blessing to others, involves an inconsistency not to be excused."
--John Jay, 1^st Supreme Court Chief Justice- letter to R. Lushington, March 15, 1786

“[M]y opinion against it [slavery] has always been known… [N]ever in my life did I own a slave.”
—John Adams

“Christianity, by introducing into Europe the truest principles of humanity, universal benevolence, and brotherly love, had happily abolished civil slavery. Let us who profess the same religion practice its precepts… by agreeing to this duty.”
—Richard Henry Lee, President of Continental Congress and Signer of the Declaration of Independence

“Many of the white people [who] have been instruments in the hands of God for our good, even such as have held us in captivity, are now pleading our cause with earnestness and zeal.”
-Reverend Richard Allen, former slave, friend of a number of the Founders, and founder of the African Methodist Episcopal Church

"Strongly guarded as is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States, the danger of encroachment by ecclesiastical bodies may be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their short history." James Madison

This very clearly shows that the "Father of the Constitution" understood a separation between religion and government was written into our Constitution, and that encroachment by ecclesiastical bodies represented a danger.

yeah but what about them slave owners were they then outlaws? no because it was still legal to own a human-being very christian like, those slave owners were "christian" they even forced their beliefs on the chattel, yeah nobody died because of slavery where was so much benevolence back then yahoo i want to live in the 18th century! i'm wishing and hoping and clicking my heels together cause its much comfort to those enslaved yes just wishing will change everything i'm praying for rain rainmaker!

I'd rather listen to perry talk about his "wrestling" with god than listen to obama lie about his religious backgrounds and beliefs. That fool obama has lied so much about his "christian" upbringing not even mohammed can stop laughing at his lying a$$.

I'll take both at their word that they are persuaded by the Christian faith, but that does not sway my vote to either because I find no evidence that holding any particular religious belief conveys a superior ability to effectively govern.

Larry Robinson-1323081 - A few more quotes:

Thomas Jefferson
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find
in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They
are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men,
women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been
burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this
coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to
support roguery and error all over the earth."
Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states
"The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the
Christian religion."
Thomas Paine
"I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to
that book (the Bible)."
James Madison
"What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on
civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of
political tyrrany. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of
the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty
have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government,
instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

No wise has the power to reason away what a fool believes!

Yes, once a person strongly believes something they, the wise included, tend to defend that belief even in the face of reason. It is called cognitive dissonance.

the only one who was an atheist was Paine and he was widely renounced for it by most of the Founders

Ben Franklin wrote: I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person . . . . If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? I intend this letter itself as proof of my friendship

John Adams wrote: The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue equity and humanity, let the Blackguard [scoundrel, rogue] Paine say what he will

Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration of Independence, wrote to his friend and signer of the Constitution John Dickenson that Paine's Age of Reason was "absurd and impious."[7] Charles Carroll, a signer of the Declaration, described Paine's work as "blasphemous writings against the Christian religion."[8] John Witherspoon, signer of the Declaration and mentor to many other Founders, said that Paine was "ignorant of human nature as well as an enemy to the Christian faith."[9] John Quincy Adams declared that "Mr. Paine has departed altogether from the principles of the Revolution."

Your post does not refute the fact that a separation between religion and government was written into our Constitution, and that encroachments by ecclesiastical bodies were seen by the "Father of the Constitution" as a "danger". Religious freedom is great, but there shall be no religious test. This country was not founded, nor does it currently exist, as "a Christian Nation".

Whether or not the founding fathers were Christians or not is irrelevant. You guys can argue it all day long and no one will come out the winner. The main issue is the separation of church and state. The whole point of separation of church and state was about not making the same mistakes the Old World had made when the church interfered with policy. When this particular oil and water is mixed, violence tends to ensue.

It was never about removing God, Providence, or whatever you want to call it from anything and everything. "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State." This is about political power, not belief. You don't want the President answering to a religious leader who was not elected.

Rick Perry is gay.

You don't say. The old boy is a 'bone-addict'? Whodda thunk?

Amy, it is sad to see that you have slithered right to the bottom of the pit with the rest of them.

Good luck with that.

Amy what do you expect to accomplish by your statement?

I expect if Amy had any first hand knowledge she would have already let us know. This is political rhetoric. More of the "Kill the Republican candidate strategy"

Perry is gay?! That explains why Bachmann hates him so much...he's probably doing her husband.

Just trying to keep Bob happy. He requested a Rick Perry is gay comment and I supplied it! What can I say? I'm a people pleaser :)

Bob...God? Wrestle with God? Uh...Isn't that like some weenie trying to wrestle with Man Mountain Dean?

Bob - that was an actual statement from a republican in office, I wish I could make up stuff like that...

I'm wondering where all the Ron Paul 2012 people went. Hmmm.

Job1...I'm exhausted from trying to ignore Bush and his second language, that blowhard Texan attitude and his inability to walk without that swagger. I am definitely not into another round of Texification.

EffortPa- well written with just enough wit to confuse and anger the true believers oh i'm sorry they're already confused and angry... angry that they can explain why they follow the snake oil salesmen who take every chance to invoke their "faith" whenever and wherever. Hey teabaggers have you seen the recent study done by Notre Dame Univ. your the same bigotted people of 12 years ago just dressed up in silly outfits and taking money from the special interests that paid for your bus and lunch.

Job1:

Clearly a multi-talented guy, that Perry. He's also the most stupid.

So @Effort why don't you post the same list on Muslims, Buddhists, or any of the other major religions of the world? Or is it only politically correct in your mind to bash Christians?

EffortPA -

Just thought you should know that I find your post very offensive. And I'm an atheist.

Stereotyping is stereotyping. You owe a lot of Christians an apology.

"So @Effort why don't you post the same list on Muslims, Buddhists, or any of the other major religions of the world? Or is it only politically correct in your mind to bash Christians?'

Are representatives of THOSE religions running for president of the US, and proclaiming that THEIR religion is what our country needs to be based on?

JoAnne,

Why should he apologize....what part of that was untrue? If your Christian than you believe what the Bible says...right? He simply stated what the Bible says and what Christian's, if you are one, should believe.

I am sorry if the truth hurts.

No but one is currently president.

@Effort poor attempt at deflection. So what is your truth about the other religions or are you really bigoted only against Christianity?

@DBO what difference does it make, are you saying it is only a problem when you bash other religions based on whether or not they are running for office. Where is that liberal bent that says love everyone???

Wow, that's some heavy stereotyping and wrong-headed. The majority of people quietly live their lives and go about their business - it's usually the politicians that distort faith and use it to suit their own purposes. I find conservative/republican mindsets very hypocritical and myopic. That's what happens when you substitute critical thinking for ideological zealotry...

Vipp -

Why an apology? Because while there are no doubt many Christians who fit EffortPA's list to a "t" - some of them even running for political office - there are just as many if not more who don't. Unlike me, most of my friends and family consider themselves Christians, and yet I don't know a single one of them who feel "insulted and dehumanized" by the concept of evolution, who "laugh at Hindu beliefs", who believe in "dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents", or who feel the slightest need to roll around on the floor speaking in tongues to "prove" their Christianity.

As an atheist, I hate being stereotyped as being evil, indecent, sinful and immoral. I think I owe it to the Christians I know who practice their faith to a wide variety of very personal degrees to give them the same consideration.

Who told you it was written by men who never met Jesus. Whoever that was, is sadly misinformed like you.

Religion should not be a factor in elections and each religion should not condemn another.

So Job1 what do you think of Effort PA criticizing Christianity as a whole?

Two thumbs up.

I believe in freedom of religion and the right to free speech. However, things that some say or do can harm others. So, to criticize Christianity as a whole is wrong.

For example some far right Christians and radical Muslims carry it too far.

Shame theres to much of this to get on a tee shirt!

Well, I hardly claim to speak for all of Christianity, but I am a Christian; and not one of Effort's eleven "signs" applies to me as written. I don't laugh at anyone, deny science, or get outraged at the beliefs of others. Nor does it bother me when people question my beliefs. I've done hours and hours of archaeological, historical, biological, astronomical, and other research on my own using various secular sources simply because I have a brain and I'm not the type of person to believe things just because someone tells me they are so. I've never even seen anyone "rolling around on the floor speaking in tongues," and if I had I wouldn't have been able to understand what they were saying anyway!

I don't stereotype atheists or believers of any other philosopy or religion as evil, immoral, and/or ignorant. I have interacted with some atheists who were more reasonable than many Christians I know and-yes-with several who knew more about the Bible than a lot of Christians do. Not all Christians read the Bible very much or else they tend to focus on certain passages they like, and some churches are the same way. However, some of us have studied the Bible in depth for years, have had a lot of teaching, and have read all of it; and we know a good bit about how it all ties in together between Old and New Testament. (I certainly don't claim to know everything.) I have found that often if we are having a discussion when I get into all of that that many atheists don't want to hear it-they ignore what I have to say, they say they "didn't bother to read my post," or they deflect by raising an entirely different issue.

As for whether the topic of religion should ever be raised in a political campaign, I can't think of a single presidential campaign where it was not raised. Even our current president has discussed his Christian religion. If such things are not allowed, then what has happened to free speech and freedom of religion? Christians have been told repeatedly that if we don't like what's on TV to change the channel, or if we don't like what's in a movie not to go see it (that's beside the point that we can hardly escape the previews.) If you don't like a candidate's religion, don't vote for him or her.

Amen to that...

Seen too Much, the only issue I have with Christianity is the need some of it's practitioners to impose their beliefs on others. Christians who insist that I accept their beliefs, and will not take no for an answer, are very offensive to me. I like your attitude. I like people who lead by example.

Being a Christian does not lose my vote, telling me to live like a christian does.

Being a Christian does not lose my vote, telling me to live like a christian does.

I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with that either, provided it's only moral guidance and not a deliberate effort to shape law to reflect Christianity.

What bothers the hell out of me regarding many Christians is that they are extremely un-Christian like in their behavior. Like just about any ideology, they pick and choose what they want to believe at a given time, even if it goes against the Bible that they claim is sacred.

BTW: the founding fathers intended there to be separation of church and state, not just to protect the state from religious influence, but to protect the Church from secular influences. This is why we have the Free Exercise and establishment clauses in the first amendment:

Free exercise: Government shall not prohibit the free exercise of religion

Establishment: Government shall not establish a religion (or provide support for any one religion).

Personally, I don't trust an overtly religious politician. At the bare minimum, they're placating the masses, perhaps even expressing a faith that they themselves may not truly believe. And if they're a true believer, I trust them even less because few things are more dangerous on this earth than someone who really believes in something--especially if that belief has a religious foundation. They just can't be reasoned with. We already had eight years of an overtly religious president, and we saw where that got us. It's time to stick with secular for a while.

CC- that is short and to the point EXACTLY. Wish I'd have thought of it. If you don't mind, though, I'll use it often in the future when debating the 'church-and-state' people.

You took the time to say what i wanted to. Thanks. I believe in a seperation from morality and law as well as religion from government. Laws are only in place to protect the rights of people. Murder isn't against the law because it is evil, it is against the law because by murdering someone you have taken their right to life away. Morality Mixing with lawmaking often ends up taking natural rights away from people.

Thanks DBO feel free to useit whenever you like

You guys need to understand Ricky Parry. If he's nothing else, he's a master of sensing which way the wind blows, and reinvents himself to fit the situation. This speech in front of all those young evangelicals is a case in point. If you recall not too many years ago he was a Democrat. As Democrats started to fall out of favor in Tx politics, young Ricky sensed this and proclaimed himself a Repub. He was once a campaigner for Al Gore, and now trashes him at every opportunity. As the Teabaggers gained momentum in TX, again Ricky sensed this rising tide and abruptly changed his leopard spots from a moderate to a far right radical. Who knows what's next on his long downward journey.

Wow Beev, I actually agree with you on something, there's always hope in dialogue...

And that's why he talked about God, Larry, to get your vote. Just what Jesus was hoping for when he died on the cross - that his time on earth would help Republican politicians get elected.

Good to know you are still drinking the punch, if you are only going to vote for him because of his speach about religion then You really dont know what your right to vote is about. Try to make a educated decision and vote for him because he can fix the issues in our country that need to be fixed and not vote for him because he can pray to God so that God can fix them for him.

While you are at it take a US history 101 class so you can get a clue as to what our country was founded on and what the framers founded our constitution on, here is a hint it wasnt founded on religion.

If you dont believe me Read the Constitution..

Good point, Amy...but there isn't any helping Larry or any of those choosing mysticism to solve problems or figure out whom to vote for.

I think Perry is a very dangerous man that should not be elected. He is bought and paid for by the far right.

Job1...You know what would happen if Perry was elected? There'd be a huge battle between his Southern Baptist Conference and the Roman Catholics. He can't seriously think he'll convert Roman Catholics to his brand of Southern Baptist can he?

I wonder if this has anything to do with the uniifcation of the Republican Party with the Tea Party movement?

Matt- well chosen words..

MkeMike- another liberal misstating and distorting what Christian conservatives believe

BTW if you call yourself a Christian, you might want to read and pray about the following verse.

1 John 4:20,21 "If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen? ²¹ And this commandment we have from Him: that he who loves God must love his brother also.

Larry Robinson-1323081

Please explain how the Holy Scriptures would justify why over 45 million of your fellow and mostly Christian Americans are without health insurance? Please explain why as a good Christian you want to repeal Obamacare?

Larry Robinson-1323081

In my opinion, conservatives do a pretty good job misrepresenting what Jesus believed.

Amy:Conservative "Christians" think Jesus said: "Blessed are the rich for all good things flow from them and they are wise to store up mountains of worldly goods. But woe unto the poor for they are all worthless bums that want something for nothing. See that you help them not."

This fits in perfectly with that great conservative philosopher Rush Limbaugh. Here are two of his favorite sayings: "Profit is the only pure motive." and "The greatest power on earth is compound interest." With such wisdom how can you go wrong?

Amy, I have to agree with you that many do. And that I do at times even though I am a Christian. There is no excuse for it. We are no better than anyone else, and sometimes we are worse. The only difference at all is that we have availed ourselves of God's forgiveness. We didn't do anything to earn it. It wasn't because we were better than other people. Someone just told us about it at some point in our lives, that's all; and we decided to go for it-like beggars who were hungry finding out where to find bread. ("It" and the "bread" being the belief that God took all our wrongs, put them on Jesus while he was on the cross, and punished him instead of us so that by believing and giving our lives to him we could be set free from any guilt or punishment-Jesus taught this. He also said to tell others about it after it was done.) All we are doing is trying to tell others where the bread is. At least that's all it should be. Unfortunately, some Christians seem to have forgotten that they didn't earn the bread; and they seem to think they are better than other people because they have it. So they come from a position of superiority and judgment, forgetting that they aren't any different from anyone else other than having their hunger satisfied by free bread. Once they take the bread, they change-the bread makes them healthier and stronger. Sometimes WE want to claim credit for that, forgetting that it is the bread itself that is doing it. If a person does not change, then it shows they are not really eating the bread-ie, not receiving God's forgiveness. Anyone can say words that don't mean anything; but, again, really sincere people do still mess up. So I can't judge someone from my view on the outside.

I am not saying someone should take advantage of political office to promote their religion-not at all! However, I don't think they should be prohibited from mentioning religion at all. There has to be a balance. I do understand the fears of people with some of the rhetoric you hear about "taking back the country" and those who talk about the US being a "Christian nation." I actually agree with you regarding those statements-that they have NO place in today's political debate. I agree that to say that this country is a "Christian country" is completely unconstitutional-and I have gone around and around with some of my conservative friends about this. I have also told them repeatedly what it sounds like when they talk about "taking the country back" (the majority don't actually mean revolution or warfare or persecution or any of the horrible things that are implied by the words though I understand why some of you would think they mean those things), but most of them will not listen to me. A few listen, but I doubt they take action to tone down the rhetoric. Often they just look at me like I'm crazy. I don't know what I can do other than to say what I say and let the chips fall as they may. I'm well beyond worrying about what others think.

Torpedo you,

Christian faith has nothing to do with how many people have health insurance in this country. And no one in this country is denied access to health care, even if they can't afford it.

Most of the hospitals in this country prior to FDR socialism were religious hospitals and religious organizations took care of the financial issues for those who could not afford health care.

I'm one of those people who don't have health insurance and I've done so by choice all of my life (I'm 62). I also raised my children without health insurance, paying cash for any treatments they needed and their births (I paid the doctor and the hospital payments every two weeks). I certainly wasn't wealthy either. I was taking home about $70-80 per week.

Larry,

sadly, it should have SOMETHING to do with it,...or it's just empty rhetoric,...

Too bad more people don't take the time to listen. You actually make sense and express my understanding of the balanced and modern Christian that has some honest spiritual currency. Much respect and love.

Larry Robinson, you said,

"I'm one of those people who don't have health insurance and I've done so by choice all of my life (I'm 62).

I'll assume that you buy auto insurance, because it's illegal not to have it in most places. How is it OK for you to be reckless with your health care costs, but not reckless with your driving risks?

Also, explain to me how it is "Christian" to foist your potential medical costs back onto society? One of these days, you may need a procedure that costs upward of $50,000 to $400,000. Or, you may find yourself to be uninsurable. At age 62, many insurance companies don't even want you. Are you prepared to pay cash? Is it "Christian" to assume that everybody else will be able to pay cash too?

On the day when you find yourself dead, hopefully there will be a GOP debate going on, and they can use your case as an example. When the commentator asks, what do we do with someone like Larry Robinson, I can only hope that someone in the crowd yells, "Let him die!" to the applause of the entire groups of assembled "Christian Republicans".

I have a living will that states that in the event I'm too incapacitated to communicate, no life saving measures should be administered to me.

I'm not addicted to this life or this world.

Larry,

Then why are you part of the wealth accumulating, religion baiting, race hating, Republican Party that stands for everything that your Christian Jesus opposed? You must be just another phony Christian...

Good post Beev..

I am praying for rain in Texas

Hello!!!

God isn't answering your call either! ;o)

WTF is 'honer'? It sounds like something Rick Perry wants to do with a strapping 19 year old name Chad.

Maybe he and Rush can go to the D.R. for a 'Boys Weekend'! They would be like Adam Sandler and Chris Farley in the Saturday Night Live commercial parody for Schmidt's Gay Beer.

It is time for everyone to a) Read the verse in Mathew 22: Where Jesus says "Render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasar's and render unto God that which is God's"; and b) remember why the pilgrims left Europe and when they started our government they SEPARATED THE CHURCH AND STATE. In other words get off the pulpit and start dealing with the problems of government and the problems we are facing worldwide. God gave us brains and expects us to use them NOT call on him for everything.

It's time Diana that you wake up and realize that you have believed in a fairytale for way too long. Seriously...your belief in the God from the Bible is as insane as believing that Santa Claus fits through everybody's chimney on Christmas night. I'm not trying to make fun of you...I was once like you. You just have to wake up...and boy do I feel better.

Well, Vipp, glad you feel better. It would be good if you also had the ability to be a little more concerned with some of the problems we are facing than just being a smartass.

Diana,

I would say the same thing to you....Instead of wasting your attention and ours on scripture that has mislead you for so long you could deal with the issues that press this country. And to be honest, it's people like yourself that use religion and your beliefs to slow progress in this country. Voting Republican because they say they are Christians when in fact they show little sympathy for the poor, the weak, the hungry, or the sick makes all of you look like hypocrites and embarrasses the nation globally. But keep on preaching Diana....

Touche Diana...

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

I am praying for rain in Texas

Hello!!!

God isn't answering your call either! ;o)

Not too sure about that, Feisty- He set the damned place on fire!

Not too sure about that, Feisty- He set the damned place on fire!

The devil must of made him do it! lol

Diana,

Religion should not be pushed on people and what you preach about social issues is not freedom for all.

Personally, I study, the teachings of "A course in Miracles," as a part of The Foundation for Inner Peace.

Hey the pilgrims didn't start this country and by the way they were very intolerant ask ann hutchinson or roger williams or those they tortured and murdered (witch trials) we would ask the native americans but no one cares to.

What a joke! Tea Party Republicans say the are very religious and then say don't take care of the poor and helpless. also let people without medical insurance die! Perry is only saying what he wants hard core supporters to hear.

Stop picking on Diana. She is talking about the seperation of church and state in her post. She is walking the talk. This nonchristian respects you Diana, and I would fight to protect you rights. If you must go after anyone please sic the hypocrites in the TEA party who support dismantling our country in Christs name.

Diana, You are right , there is supposed to be a separation of church and state. We are a nation of religious freedoms, look around everyone is not a christian. Our forefathers were of many beliefs not all christian and that is why it was so important for the separation. We are supposed to be free to believe within our own personal faiths and thoughts with out being less of a vote so to speak. We are supposed to elect officials of good character and strong morals not on their faith which is personal and none of our business really. And those who chastise another's faith have no character nor moral values. Through my study of history though it seems most use religion for power which turns it into a business, eventually a government and then tyranny. Just check this out after the first 4 chapters in the New Testament didn't Paul start to turn faith into a governing power, inadvertently probably but people caught on and there we have it, people wanting to govern by their faith.

I hope this is sarcasm I see diana, if not I have very firm opinions about what I read.

diana-1091347

IT'S MY OPINION, that Perry is on the right track with God being his leader he wont go wrong on the state of our country, He may with great help from the christian groups all over the country, to stop same sex marriage and to get our youth back on track with respect and to honer their parents, and obey the laws of the bible, with this said, i only hope Perry will stick to his guns on what he believes, I am praying for rain in Texas

Well said Walt!

Not to mention his penchant for using the electric chair in his state.

Sorry Charlie - I'm a native Texan and Dubya is not now nor has he ever been from my home state...he's a snowbird from Connecticut. I never voted for him and I never voted for Perry. Beyond that, I agree with the sentiment, the last thing we need is another Theocrat in the White House. All these folks who think we need God in government should spend a few years in Iran...that might set them straight.

Facta, non verba!

and "Hallelujer" - Madea

Because its a lot harder to walk the walk than talk the talk "Charemor". Politicians do the latter.

Yeah- chrome-bumper nerff bar!

Or something.

You mean to tell me cutting corporate taxes, polluting water, air and land in the interest of greed and seeking to cut SS and medicare aren't Christian principles?

Great Post Tony!

Yeah; but we can't forgive PRISONERS for their deeds,...only politicians.

Criminals can NEVER be reformed; but politicians - hey wait a minute,...

Ironic, no?

Well said! If nothing else Perry is thoroughly amusing or scary, I'm having a hard time separating the two.