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AP
President Bush surveying Hurricane Katrina damage from window of Air Force One, Wednesday, August 31, 2005.
Governors and the president all over learned the lessons of Katrina, but what about Washington? Will it learn the lessons of the debt-debate debacle? … Bernanke takes aim at the political system and Congress … Irene may have blown over, but here comes the posturing over jobs … But reality check on manufacturing … Perry plays the role of culture warrior in Iowa … How far does Ron Paul’s libertarianism go? Pretty far… Bachmann’s rhetoric’s in overdrive (God was trying to send politicians a message with the earthquake and hurricane, really?) … Powell not backing Obama yet … Huntsman’s in SC, Perry’s in OK.
*** The Katrina effect: The last 72 hours were evidence of the Katrina effect on everyone. Every governor watched the Kathleen Blanco model and said they’re going to do the opposite of that, which is why you saw every governor and major city mayor in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast trying to show they were on top of this (didn't know you could get monogrammed fleeces, by the way!). And President Obama, of course, saw what Bush did (stayed on vacation) and wanted to do the opposite. Hence, why he cut that vacation short. Nobody wanted to become a member of the infamous Katrina "B-Team": Blanco, Bush and Brownie. So naturally, the story is shifting a tad to, "Was Irene overhyped by the government, by the media." Bottom line: see the "B-Team" roster again and realize, there's no over-hyping on these stories. So while elected officials proved they could learn a lesson from Katrina (though that took the near-destruction of a city for that lesson to be learned), will the elected officials in Washington, from the president to Congress realize the damage that's been done by the summer's debt ceiling debacle.
AP
Federal Reserve chairman Ben Bernanke at the Economic Policy Symposium at Jackson Hole in Moran, Wyoming.
*** Bernanke blasts politics: To that point Fed Chair Ben Bernanke said the pitched debt-ceiling debate was to blame for disrupting markets “and probably the economy as well,” the New York Times writes. And, he said: “The country would be well served by a better process for making fiscal decisions.” He placed the ball in Congress’ court because, “Most of the economic policies that support robust economic growth in the long run are outside the province of the central bank,” he said. He called once again called “for fiscal measures that focus on long-term reductions in the federal debt, while avoiding short-term cuts or tax increases that might impede recovery.” The Times makes this point: “Bernanke did not lay blame for the debt ceiling battle on either political party. But his recommendations for future fiscal policy— particularly the emphasis on the need for continued investment and reducing unemployment — generally hews closer to Mr. Obama’s position than to the views of Congressional Republicans.”
AP
Flooded highway in New Brunswick, NJ after Hurricane Irene.
*** Good night, Irene, hello posturing over jobs: The hurricane may have passed, but there’s going to be plenty of churning this fall (starting this week) about j-o-b-s. In the next two weeks, we are set to get at least three jobs plans – how specific they will be remains to be seen -- from Jon Huntsman, Mitt Romney and President Obama. Huntsman leapfrogged Romney and Obama and will release his plan Wednesday from a metal manufacturer in New Hampshire, NBC’s Jo Ling Kent reports. Here’s what we’ve learned of Huntsman’s plan: He is going to talk about manufacturing jobs and the need for the U.S. to make things again. He’ll say he will make “Made in America” mean something. How does he propose getting there? First, he’ll say essentially that he would work to eliminate “regulations that are limiting the ability of job creators to enter the marketplace – EPA chief among them,” per an adviser. Because of the “economic environment and lack of certainty, entrepreneurs aren’t taking the risks necessary to get these products to market.”
*** The tax man: Bloomberg got a peek at what Huntsman’s tax plan would be and found three new wrinkles. He would: (1) “take away the deduction for interest on home mortgages”; (2) “treat capital gains as regular income”; and (3) “do the same with carried interest (that is, the profit share paid to hedge-fund managers and private-equity folks).” An opposing campaign called those essentially tax increases. Huntsman spokesman Tim Miller told Bloomberg – in full Grover Norquist language -- that Huntsman believes “any tax reform should be revenue neutral.”
*** Back to reality: But neither Huntsman nor Romney nor Obama is a pure messenger on this. Sure, Huntsman will talk about his record as Utah governor, that it was No. 1 in job creation vs. Romney’s Massachusetts, which was 47th. But his own family’s company has outsourced jobs, employing more people in India and China than the U.S. Sure, Romney will talk about being the only person with “private-sector” experience. But Bain Capital doesn’t make “stuff,” it makes money for investors and it’s proud of it. And sure, Obama will talk about various jobs initiatives he’s tried, free-trade deals brokered, and wanting (hoping) for a renewed payroll tax cut, an infrastructure bank, and road-construction bill. But he's had to live down the pre-inaugural projection his economic team made that promised unemployment wouldn’t get above 8.5%, if a major stimulus packaged wasn't passed. Well, it has stayed there. Sure, it could be worse, but as the president himself has pointed out, try selling that to a frustrated public with many still looking for jobs.
*** Inertia: Can Obama get anything through Congress? The C.W. says no. Is the president willing to campaign for his plan this fall only to have it fail in Congress? In the past, the president has played pragmatist and simply tried to create legislation that could pass even if it compromised too much in the eyes of his base supporters. Does he need to propose something big that, perhaps, is D.O.A. with House Republicans? Is that good politics? Or are things so toxic with the public, that the idea of another season of gridlock and inability to compromise to pass SOMETHING is bad politics for everyone? Bottom line: the president has to propose something re: jobs and the economy, and propose something big and fight hard for it. As one smart person said to us over the weekend, the president ought to appear to be fighting as hard to create jobs as folks are looking for ones. (And, by the way, fighting hard to create jobs also means he starts looking like he's fighting hard to keep his). The president is heading back on the road, tomorrow with a stop in Minnesota to speak to the American Legion convention.
AP
Rick Perry speaking at the Polk County GOP summer picnic.
*** Culture Warrior: Speaking of jobs, Rick Perry, who does not have a jobs plan release date scheduled, was in Iowa over the weekend, hitting Obama for his economic policies, which he said have created “economic misery.” After thanking God for John Deere, he played the part of culture warrior: "Economic freedom comes from work and wages not welfare," Perry said, per the Ames Patch. "Since I was old enough to drive that tractor, I knew that the way to empowerment is not to empower government but to empower people."
*** The depths of Ron Paul’s libertarianism: Just how far does Ron Paul’s libertarianism go? Pretty far. He said FEMA isn’t necessary. Paul, in an interview with NBC’s Kent, dismissed FEMA as “a great contribution to deficit financing.” He added: "We should be like 1900; we should be like 1940, 1950, 1960," Paul said. "I live on the Gulf Coast; we deal with hurricanes all the time. Galveston is in my district.” But on Sept. 8, 1900, Galveston was hit with a massive hurricane that killed more than 6,000. And the sea wall that was built – and repaired after Ike -- was done so with federal dollars.
AP
Michele Bachmann at a rally in Sarasota, Florida.
*** Bachmann’s rhetoric in overdrive: Michele Bachmann, a member of Congress who sits on the House Intelligence Committee, over the weekend poked fun at the institution that pays her. "I know it's an oxymoron to say 'House of Representatives' and 'intelligence' in the same sentence," she said. Everyone is catching the "I’m not of Washington" campaign bug. Remember, Bachmann also said she only went to work FOR the IRS “because the first rule of war is ‘know your enemy.’” And is God really sending politicians a message with the recent earthquake and hurricane? So says Bachmann: “I don’t know how much God has to do to get the attention of the politicians,” she said, per NBC’s Jamie Novogrod. “We’ve had an earthquake, we’ve had a hurricane.” Bachmann added that God is demanding politicians “listen to the American people.”
AP
Colin Powell on Face the Nation, Sunday, August 28, 2011.
*** Powell not backing Obama yet: Most people will pay attention to Colin Powell’s swatting down of Dick Cheney, saying his book was full of “cheap shots,” and likening him to a “gossip columnist,” but maybe the most politically important thing that came out of the interview with the former Secretary of State on CBS’s Face the Nation, was that he hasn’t made up his mind on who he’s going to vote for in 2012. This is someone – a Republican -- who, at a key time, lent support to candidate Obama. “I haven't decided who I'm going to vote for," he said Sunday. "Just as was the case in 2008, I am going to watch the campaign unfold."
*** Decision 2012 Trail Mix: Huntsman is in Columbia, S.C. … Perry is in Tulsa, OK. … President Obama tomorrow heads to Minnesota to address the American Legion.
*** Monday’s “The Daily Rundown” line-up: NBC’s Jamie Gangel with more from her exclusive interview with former Vice President Dick Cheney… latest news on Hurricane Irene... NBC’s Richard Engel with the latest news from Libya… Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed on jobs, the economy and recent criticism of President Obama by some black lawmakers… plus more 2012 news with the Washington Post’s Dan Balz, former Obama White House Communications Director Anita Dunn and former RNC Chair Michael Steele.
*** Monday’s “Andrea Mitchell Reports” line-up: NBC’s Savannah Guthrie fills in as host. The show will cover the storm fallout with reporters all over. Guests include David Rodhe, a former New York Times reporter kidnapped by the Taliban, who will talk about Liby
Countdown to NBC-Politico debate at Reagan Library: 11 days
Countdown to NV-2 and NY-9 special elections: 17 days
Countdown to Election Day 2011: 73 days
Countdown to the Iowa caucuses: 163 days
* Note: When the IA caucuses take place depends on whether other states move up
Leave a Comment:
Last Friday I posted the right wing manifesto on the inexcusable & dirty tactics being used by
conservative bloggers in their attempt to keep the truth off the radar.
Here is one that seems to be very popular with the right wing nuts these days:
I had an interesting experience Saturday morning while having my coffee and skimming the previous evenings comments I would like to share.
In all fairness I have not included the names in order to protect the guilty & not give them
the attention they crave. If interested you can check it out under the ‘Obama cuts vacation short’ thread.
Lo & behold the conversation derailed into of all things, the Mumbai trip. Starting out with the BOLD faced lie that has been repeatedly DEBUNKED! The entire exchange is a CLASSIC example of Rovarian strategies.
I responded by pointing out the EXACT quote from FactCheck.org & Snopes along with the links. My objection to the lie was then met with this response:
And this:
It took me all of 5 seconds to do a quick Google search & locate multiple sites that ONCE again prove this to be untrue!
Needless to say after that, the entire conversation was reduced to name called (fisty redwig) and b!tching about how I’m able to post first! LOL
Q: Is Snopes.com run by "very Democratic" proprietors? Did they lie to discredit a State Farm insurance agent who attacked Obama?
A: A chain e-mail that "exposed" Snopes contains falsehoods. And in fact, the site is run by someone who has no political party affiliation and his non-voting Canadian wife. A State Farm spokeswoman
confirms what they reported about the Obama-baiting agent.
A Final Warning:
(Bold added for emphasis).
Being skeptical of a source is one thing, reveling in your own stupidity is a WHOLE different story … ;o)
Can we here at First Read at least agree to debate based on facts & not hyperbole?
The Karl Rove Play Book
I want to thank Feisty for an excellent post Friday on the Karl Rove tactical agenda authored by Art Silverblatt, Jane Bruns and Gina Jensen (the URL is below). The article she (Feisty) used should be read by all who post here at: The information is priceless to the understanding of what is really going on in the political arena today. It is all about the political agenda and how to get he agenda implemented. It has nothing to do with what the American People want or need. It has nothing to do with moving this country forward. In fact it is a dangerous path being laid out for the destruction of democracy as we know it today. Read It, make a copy and refer to it often.
This is not a document of what he (Karl Rove) said per se but rather a very detailed analysis of the tactics and agenda of Karl Rove and the Republican Party going all the way back to the early 1990’s. It labels over a dozen or so tactics we see in Radical Right Wing political rhetoric and dirty tactics that they are using today. In fact we see many of these lately on this board as well, like attacking the source of information but never proving the facts wrong, or even putting up their own facts. When they lie and get called out they get defensive and cry foul. The constant lies like Tax Cuts for the 2% create jobs and stimulate the economy, death panels in HCR, the bigger the lie the better. People the tactics are exposed, please read them; I guarantee you will recognize most of them very quickly and you can then determine who (which party) uses them the most.
Among them: These are just the headers – read the document for all the details.
Every one of these topics is addressed with many examples and sources for follow up. This board is not big enough to go into each tactic in any real detail. Just read this document – the details are there, real historical campaigns and other follow up documents that support each and every one of the tactics listed about. And then go back and look at the stump speeches from the politicians and count how many of these tactics they use. Use this document to guide you on what is really going on. It has nothing to do with the truth and/or presentation of facts. It is all about how to manipulate those of a weaker mind that do not think for themselves and just follow blindly what the politicians say.
Compare the above to the deeds at hand like the Ryan Bill, The CCB and more recent on how the TP/GOP manipulated this country into first ever “credit rating” downgrade.
Feisty:
We are on the same page this Monday. That document is a great tutorial for anybody who posts here on FR.
It shows exactly howthe radical right is trying to manipulate the American People through what amouints to deceit and lies by the right. They have NO Shame and will say anything, even if it is a downa and out lie. The bigger the lie the better as they think big lies are better.
They will continue with the no fact personal attacks we see every day.
Katrina effect. Irene was to Katrina what Obama is to Reagan. I.e., tiny and insignificant.
Opps, they Acted Stupidly Again
The politics of Irene should be called T-party insani-Tea.
FOX NEWS chyron read: Potential Cost of Hurricane for Obama, should have read PROBLEM for FOX TO SPIN.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1130611758001/potential-cost-of-hurricane-for-obama/?playlist_id=86858
The bimbos and deuces over @ the Fear Factor Channel aka FOX NEWS, one bimbo, um I mean expert prognosticator LOL, says Democrats will use "Hurricane Irene" as an excuse to get and blow more stimulus @ 3:38 on the video.
Like Beckel said let me tell you something Eric Cantor "boy" if there is no money left; let's cut money from Virgina @ 2:00 in the video. I have no idea what that guy from RedEye was trying to say.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/1130611717001/politics-of-irene/?playlist_id=86858
Eric Cantor: Hurricane Relief Spending Means Cuts Need to Happen Elsewhere
http://nation.foxnews.com/eric-cantor/2011/08/26/eric-cantor-hurricane-relief-spending-means-cuts-need-happen-elsewhere
Right on Bob Beckel; Cantor is a man in a "boy's" body (as odd as that sounds) and an idiot.
Kneel Cavotu, the servile sycophant to the rich, trotted out the “Master of Bankruptcy” and foolish birtherism Master, Donald Trump. Of all the most dishonest pundits and undecided wanna be presidential candidates to expound political savvy about Hurricane Irene. Why Fox did that is more confusing than what causes the Donald to plead bankruptcy
Notice that Mr.Trump’s casino operations have filed for bankruptcy (2x) twice.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/05/business/05norris.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1&sq=donald%20trump&st=cse&scp=8
Yup, that's the vision of disaster relief Republicans have for America right now. I wonder how that will play in blood red states that are already fed up with the T-Potty ?
There's a lot of Stupid out there.
Band of Gypsys - Who Knows?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ElVjKgf2xo
REBUILD AMERICAREBUILD AMERICAREBUILD AMERICAREBUILD AMERICAREBUILD AMERICAREBUILD AMERICAREBUILD AMERICA
Let us get back to work rebuilding the crumbling roads, bridges, schools and airports of America. 1 in 5 of folks out of work in the US are construction workers hit by the housing bubble. Interest rates are low & we can finance rebuilding of infrastructure across America while creating millions of jobs.
Infrastructure traditionally a bipartisan issue. While China spends 9% of GDP on infrasture, we spend only 2% of GDP. China understands how important it is to put people to work doing what needs to be done for the 21st century.
No more distractions and time-wasting in Congress.
Americans want jobs NOW.
Rebuild our country!
Hi Fiesty
Why don't you start the another column as your post is irrelevant to this subject? I guess the hurricane just happened to other people so it's of no matter to you.
Hey Navy any light where you are? (..so far up Fiesty's rear end)
JoAnnaSmith1
Katrina effect. Irene was to Katrina what Obama is to Reagan. I.e., tiny and insignificant.
What's the Matter, sniff? Did your battery run out? You tired of being a Crash-Test Dummy?
Anyone else waiting for the drum roll whenever Smiffy posts?
Ummm - that would be a great BIG HELL no with the current obstructionists in the House!
The President needs to go HUGE - this is a fight he needs to engage in!
Hey Alan - why don't you STFU!
No one died and left you moderator...
Who exactly is forcing you to read what I write?
Yeah, it's all about Bush. Obama overreacted to this "storm" and scared people, kind of like he did when he said "Those Social Security checks, they may not go out.", and now the media is trying to compare Obama's response to a rain storm somehow relates to a Cat 4 hurricane hitting a city that is below sea level. It's known the media grades Obama on a curve, but even this is a bit of stretch.
I see the right wing, stuck on stupid crowd is working today.
The United States is in very unfamiliar territory. We have massive debt. We have serious competition in world markets AND our competitors hold a great deal of our debt. Our educational system is a disaster. National wealth is being redistributed...UPWARD. Terrorism is a global threat. The new world does not operate under the rules of the old world. WE made those rules - no longer.
Republicans can't understand this. No matter, they have their ideology. Tax cuts work, even when they don't. Spending cuts are the answer, even when they're not. American Exceptionalism means we're better than everyone else, even when every objective measurement shows otherwise.. We are now in the 21st century, and Republicans want to go back to the 19th. These people cannot be allowed to run our government.
Feisty gave us the analysis of the "Rovian Playbook". No, there is not an actual document, but the plays are really there. Ironically, they are little more than Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals, updated to include the technologies of today. We see them every single day.
Consider the Albany ideologue. He spews the Republican nonsense about uncertainty. Surely, noble capitalists would invest if they weren't uncertain about government rules. Yet, this is the same guy who can't tell us enough about how he trades inside his 401k. He's making huge profits and they aren't subject to taxes he doesn't like. It's 401k magic and his sheer genius. About that uncertainty? One day, assuming his stocks still have value, he will cash them out for his retirement. Joe has no idea what the tax rate will be. NONE. Isn't that the very definition of uncertainty? Cognitive dissonance, anyone?
How about JAS1? She can't rag enough on US Navy. Kill the messenger. Why? Well, USN brings us facts and citations. Well, that's just irritating as hell for JAS. What's with that cut and paste stuff? Who needs facts? Who needs citations? Who needs proof? When you're JAS, you don't need that kind of stuff. Hell NO, not when you can just make it up.
How about njnb? She can find any number of irrelevant statistics; cherry-picked beauties that tell us how things used to work. The relationships of yesteryear are identical to those of today.....at least in her "mind". However, Alan Greenspan, who made a nice living by capitalizing on noting those relationships, is quick to point out that those relationships have changed, and very dramatically. Steel production doesn't have the same relevance today that it did years ago. Not true in nj's world. Nothing changes. When she wants her car to accelerate, she grabs that buggy whip and smacks the fender.
And Spanky? Spanky keeps his boat on Lake Havasu. Where do you begin with this? The evil federal government commissioned John Powell to explore the Colorado River. This mission eventually led to one of the most incredible public works projects in the history of the world. The damming of this river allowed the development of a great deal of California and Arizona. The building of those dams put thousands and thousands of out-of-work Americans back to work, created vast wealth, provided huge amounts of power, water for millions, and top-flight produce for the nation. Oh yeah, and a place for Spanky to park his boat.
Somehow, these guys can find a way to demonize the government that allows them to live so very, very well. Sure, the government has made mistakes over the years. THE ANSWER IS TO FIX IT, NOT DESTROY IT.
The base of the Republican Party will NEVER move towards the center. The right wing has always included the moralists, the blue noses, the know-nothings, the witch-hunters, and the very rich who so adroitly manipulate them. They will not move from their position because they cannot. They are motivated only by fear, born of ignorance, and hatred. No amount of logic, facts, or persuasion moves them.
So, my fellow left-wing citizens, don't waste your time arguing with those who are hell-bent on the destruction of our country. Use your time to recruit reasonable and like-minded citizens. Get them to the voting booths. Throw Republicans out of office and demand that Democrats do the job that needs to be done.
We are indeed Navy! Thanks for the support!
The roaches NO likey when you turn the lights on... lol
This is your best comeback?
Boo Hoo somebody won't read my big long post about nasty Karl Rove.
Where are my sycophants?
Attack the unbeliever.
What happened Fiesty can't debate anymore on a track record...hold the fort...you never could..
Attack! Attack!
Both are reading the Dr. Seuss Looney Lib series.
Alan, NJ
Hi Fiesty
Why don't you start the another column as your post is irrelevant to this subject? I guess the hurricane just happened to other people so it's of no matter to you.
Hey Navy any light where you are? (..so far up Fiesty's rear end)
Alan, you're quite the Moonie spectacle.
Most peepin Toms are.
Tactic #1: Take the offensive.
People: Until the Radical Right gives up their Agenda of "Obstructionism", "NO Compromise" and the new "Hostage" taking of America - Nothing and I mean Nothing is going to be done to create jobs and move this country forward.
There is NO reason for the radical right to help it "Citizens". They are going to let as many people die on the vine as they can. The higher the body count the better their chance to regain the White House in their little self absorbed minds.
..and in chimes Bev right on time. If anything you should know Bev because you're right up there with Navy (metaphorically speaking).
Hey John B, what's the orders from DNC central...change the subject...must get back to running against Bush...mention Rove a lot and his nasty, non-existent, handbook. Thats the funniest part of this lame exercise is the admission that it's all conjecture...from a liberal website. But the imaginary document says to attack liberal websites so the posts must make it true.
It's a beautiful self-reinforcing delusion.
BTW The hurricane dropped a lot of rain and there is extensive flooding. The damage is not as bad as predicted. All government agencies did a great job regardless of their political leadership.
From local through to federal.
From Silverblatt, Bruns, and Jensen: Divert the conversation into minor points that don't really matter.
Hurricane Irene reminds us that we desperately need to work on our infrastructure. Poor infrastructure makes natural disasters so much worse.
Ron Paul said "no FEMA" and Cantor said "no FEMA" unless cuts elsewhere, eg. Education. Do they have any conscience or moral faculty?
Feisty and Navy, thank you for posting the Rove Playbook. Keep posting it. JAS1 demonstrates it in action relentlessly.
Happy MUN-day Feisty
Can we here at First Read at least agree to debate based on facts & not hyperbole?
Feisty
We can, those of us on the left.
The right wing tea- nuts can't. They don't know what a fact is.
21 deaths from Hurricane Irene.
7 billion dollars in damage
700,000 lost power in MA alone
Millions in total without power
This was not an insignificant storm.
From John B, Des Moines IA - whine all day because they have nothing left to argue.
David Walker, I've been noticing lately that the Conservative talk shows yak constantly about Alinsky and "Rules for Radicals". Until that time I knew the name but didn't really know who he was, and hadn't heard of the book.
Conservatives have obviously adopted these tactics lock, stock, and barrel. It comes naturally...the Conservative Movement and Republican Party have become so radicalized it's hard to even recognize them in the great tradition of the Grand Old Party.
John B:
I see more rhetoric from the same people that have a scrotum fetish. WHAT IS THEIR FIXATION WITH PEOPLES BUTTS AND SCROTUM'S?? Oh, I forget they are "Tea Baggers" and they are experts on that part of the human anatomy.
Yep, they make Karl Rove proud every day.
Beverly: Great post this Monday.
Backhouse: I agree - kudos
Feisty :
Hey Alan - why don't you STFU!
Feisty, what does this mean? You once told me you never use this term when I asked you what it meant? I have only seen it on this board from you and Bev and I don't get it.
Feisty: No one died and left you moderator...
Is it something the moderator should be concerned about, or do you hold that position here?
Have you not seen some of the images coming out of here in upstate NY or from Vermont or western Massachusetts? While the media focused its story on the potential impact to New York City the real story is what the storm did inland...record flooding, whole villages under water, roads and bridges destroyed completely...and it's not done as all those little streams are emptying into the Mohawk and Hudson today.
Overreact? I think not.
From Silverblatt, Bruns, and Jensen: Divert the conversation into minor points that don't really matter.
Tactic #4: Go negative, then cry foul.
US Navy Disabled Veteran - Retired
The Karl Rove Play Book
Great post
Thanks for highlighting who stupid the GoP/ TP is.
Rick Perry's hair is a ponzi scheme and Eric Cantor is caught up in it.
Pat:
Great post and remember that Cantor is not going to supply and Federal Relief until he holds America Hostage to get more tax cuts and spending cuts. What a political Party - Not, they are a bunch on Neo-Nazi/Fascists pretending to be an American Political Party. They prove it every day, the earthquakes and hurricane are just another examples of how far they are away from American values, morals and virtues.
The sad part it is going to get worse before it gets better.
Great post Backhouse, and you're pointing out something very important. We already have massive infrastructure needs that could be addressed with a rebuilding plan. Those needs have been made even WORSE by this devastating storm. Fixing those issues now would not only put people to work but efficient, up to date infrastructure would be an aid to the economy for decades.
Alan, NJ: Good to see you made it through the hurricane, now you just have to make it through the storm from Bev. & Fiesty... LOL.... Happy Monday.
White Collar Auto
Feisty, what does this mean? You once told me you never use this term when I asked you what it meant? I have only seen it on this board from you and Bev and I don't get it.
White Collar Auto
It means you can't STFU because you infiltrated hairspray Rick Perry.
That is a horrible experience Feisty and I understand. But you can keep babbling; your rants warrant merit.
Soon is Obama's "Major Speech" on the economy. Obama's crew isn't done with the focus group testing of it yet, they have to blame the right people, but as soon as they are done, I'm certain Obama will be ready for his "Major Speech". Read it well Barry, this is an important one.
Now that is an insignificant mass of hot air!
President Obama held many telephone conferences with governors up and down the east coast all weekend. He asked them if there was anything they needed that FEMA wasn't providing.
No answer.
Christie in New Jersey thanked President Obama for all his concern and nonstop assistance.
The U.S. and local governments did a superb job to ensure lives were saved.
That's the thing about the American people. They don't want to listen. They want to go kayaking and surfing and boating during hurricanes.
And then expect to have the government save their lives when they run into danger.
That's why the government needs to be in front of all storms.
To keep people in their freakin' houses.
Over react?
The only over reaction I saw was President Obama taking a vacation.
Tactic #10: Create straw issues.
Alan, NJ your comment would be Rove #10, Create Straw Issues. This is First Thoughts and everyone is entitled to post their own "First Thoughts" related or unrelated to First Read's.
Fiesty, Navy, David – My heros!! The visual of NJ accelerating with a buggy whip is classic. The Spanky, JS, NJ group are all just too stupid to realize they are chasing a dream of a middle class stature that has for the most part been eradicated. Article after article appears where 1 million dollars isn't enough to retire on. If you live on the coasts, earning low 6 figures means you are struggling to make ends meet and you are most likely 1-2 paychecks away from foreclosure. I find it interesting that some pols want to eliminate the mortgage deduction. Why would you want to throw another 50% of the population into foreclosure by doing that? Fiesty has the only posted a portion of what is really going on. First is to kill liberalism though talking points. But what really needs to be focused on is the elimination of the middle class by redistribution of wealth from the lower, middle classes to the rich. This is currently in progress and almost complete. All that remains is the elimination of SSN, Medicare, and the dissolution of the middle class 401Ks and pension systems. Will be interesting to see the comments of the right wing nut jobs when nothing is left for them.
John B, Des Moines, IA
Conservatives have obviously adopted these tactics lock, stock, and barrel. It comes naturally...the Conservative Movement and Republican Party have become so radicalized it's hard to even recognize them in the great tradition of the Grand Old Party.
Wow, John B kudos
I'll say they did. They're such a bunch of crash dummies.
Remember that old saying--imitation is the best flattery?
They really are jealous of our intelligent President.
They really want to be as great as him.
Some pundits are busy pontificating that government officials overreacted to Hurricane Irene. Knowing their ideology was a massive failure on Wall Street and in response to Katrina — as well as in their decision to invade Iraq, Republicans are left with no choice but to continue to move the goal post and never have an honest discussion about their ideology as implemented by Bush. Their intellectual dishonesty is one reason why they can’t credit President Obama with getting Osama, his Libya response or now his response to Irene. Republicans can’t afford to have an honest discussion about ideology, so they dress up screaming Medicare recipients and put on a Big Show about not raising Americas debt ceiling without balancing the deficit.
http://www.politicususa.com/en/irene-vs-katrina-ideologies-obama-bush
OVERPREPARED???
GTHOH, WTF Does Government was 'OVERPREPARED mean? Wait it means they CLAIM THEY DON'T know; because they DON ‘T CARE WTF they say or do. They'll do anything to peddle the right wing snake oil. It's better to be prepared that not at all. President Obama can’t do any thing to please these dummies!!!!
And just WTF was GW doing besides flying over Katrina with a birthday cake partying and playing a guitar???
Bev:
It means you can't STFU because you infiltrated hairspray Rick Perry.
GTHOH, WTF Does Government was 'OVERPREPARED mean? Wait it means they CLAIM THEY DON’T know; because they DON ‘T CARE WTF they say. President Obama can’t do any thing to please these numb skulls.
Off to another great week of Bev'ism's I see. Priceless.
The real hurricane will be the White House spin machine excusing and working behind the scenes to HALT the DEPORTATION of Obama's ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT UNCLE just like the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT AUNT Obama got off the hook why even WONDER why Obama prefers illegals over hard working citizens ISN'T IT OBVIOUS?
Barack Obama's uncle has been arrested and held as illegal immigrant
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/barack-obamas-uncle-has-been-arrested-and-held-as-illegal-immigrant/story-e6frg6so-1226124269032
The United States has killed Al Qaeda‘s number two commander in another blow to the international terrorist organization after the elimination of Osama Bin Laden.
The Obama administration announced Saturday afternoon in Washington that the second highest commander, Atiyah Abd al-Rahman, was killed in Pakistan.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/147257
Michele Bachmann Gets Lost Inside Florida Sandwich Shop
Ha ha, just kidding. No, Bachmann thinks the minimum wage is possibly driving away all of America's corporations, who can hire cheaper labor in foreign countries instead of putting up with spoiled American workers. If we lowered wages here, then those companies might come back and create $1-an-hour jobs that we could all proudly hold. But don't hold her to that! "I'm not married to anything," she told a crowd of supporters at the "Bible Thumpin' Gun Totin' Capitalist Pig Owned" Angie's Subs in Jacksonville. "I'm not saying that's where I'm going to go."
Not disclosing where she's going to go is probably wise, considering that she seems to be having trouble figuring out where she is:
http://gawker.com/5835006/michele-bachmann-gets-lost-inside-florida-sandwich-shop
LOL like being in her hometown of the serial killer John Gacy and the wrong city where the Revolunary war started.
Tactic #10: Raise a straw issue.
The Presidents action here had less to do with the in-action for Katrina then it then it did for his initial non-reponse to the BP Oil Spill.
He got away with coming to the party late on the oil spill, He would not have gotten away with a slow reponse to this. Once again, a no brainer for who ever was in office, Presidents, Governors or Mayors.
Really surprised that FR, MSNBC, etc, haven't drawn the line between those two points.
Well maybe not really surprised.
@RedDevPS
At last a policy debate. Hey red, I would fall into the category you mention above but I am for eliminating or at least changing the mortgage deduction. I have always found this an unfair deduction that favors wealthier people. Why should renters subsidize homeowners? This is the perfect example of the government altering the tax laws to promote a social agenda. Now, do I think this is the time to eliminate this deduction? Probably not. But changes could be made to limit it to mortgages of 250K, with a plan to eliminate it in 10 years (similar to what the UK did).
This is part of the changes that can made to increase revenue, lower rates and simplify the mess that is the tax code.
John B:
It did not take them long this morning to prove their use of the Karl Rove Playbook. So far they have have covered about half of them (tactics) already in about one hour.
Like shooting DEAD FISH in a barrel.
John B, nice to see you read the opinion piece. Jody lectured us up the board that this is First Thoughts and people can talk about what ever they want, so why are you giving Madison a hard time.
Just curious, will you spend all day posting "Rules of Radicals',err.....Feisty's thesis, in response to every comment you disagree with?
Cause, the way I see that is, you are following the exact protocol, that you are attempting to mock.
Again.......can anyone of you show me where I can find a copy of this "document" with Mr Rove credited for writing it? I can find several manifestos going back a few decades attributed to Various people, but no Mr Rove credits. I mean really I would love a copy of this so I can someday get it autographed and add it to my collection. And Feisty I was trying to find someone who's personality I could Identify yours with.... Leona Helmsley what the nicest I could find, we wont go near the worst end. I think I saw navybouys house on NBC earlier...... The skivvies with all the moth-holes in the window as a dead giveaway! On a lighter note I lived in Maine and New Hampshire for 10 years and Im afraid some very old wonderful homes an attractions have been lost. That stuff can never be replaced.
An excerpt from: TACTICS FOR EFFECTIVE CONSERVATIVE BLOGGING By Karl Rove
"Don't let up. Insult their Movement Assign as many character and moral flaws toLiberals as you can. You must portray Liberals as weak, vacillating, indecisive, amoral, baby killers, unpatriotic, effete snobs, elitists, Leftists, Commies, sense of entitlement, promiscuous, union lovers, tax raisers, Welfare Queens, Socialists, lazy, sex-obsessed, druggies, Jesus haters, moochers, troop hater,.etc. Always use these negative epithets when referring to, or describing Liberals / democrats.
Deceive Identify yourself as a moderate, centrist or independent. It will also cause Liberals to lower their guard a bit, which gives you an effective opening. This may also have the
effect of aligning conservative viewpoints with the real moderates we are attempting to reach"....
http://www.webster.edu/medialiteracy/journal/FINALKARLROVE.pdf
So let me get this straight. FR leads with a story on the hurricane, Fiesty (Red Queen?) responds with an imaginary list of Karl Rove political tactics and I call her out on it
...and in your world I'm the one creating the straw issue?
My God, Up is Down, Black is White...luckily I caught part of Alice in wonderland this weekend because you are definitely inhabiting the world of the Red Queen
Alan, NJ. Incidentally, what would you like us to say about the hurricane--we've watched it all weekend, everything has been said. We discussed it Friday. Again, "straw issue" and FYI, I wasn't the only one pointing it out to you. Incidentally, Rove's Manifesto was created by Karl Rove, it isn't fiction--you've been trained to automatically respond accordingly, or perhaps I should say, brainwashed to respond accordingly. First Thoughts is for both liberal and conservative first thoughts. Just because conservatives need an outlined topic to discuss doesn't mean liberals do.
Just curious but exactly how do you redistribute wealth from the lower and middle classes if, by the statistics so frequently posted here, they don't have any?
As to the elimination of SSN (they're eliminating Social Security Numbers?) and Medicare, it is the Democrats (I spelled and Capitalized correctly I hope because I don't want to be considered to be using Rovian tactics), who will have to raise the amount of taxes needed to maintain these programs at their current levels that will destroy the working middle class if they wish to allow the baby boomers to maintain their retirement benefits.
White Collar, lecture? What lecture? In response to a poster complaining about not staying on topic, all I said was First Thoughts was an open forum.
JoAnnaSmith1
Yeah, it's all about Bush.
That is exaclty right, Lady Sniff Blame Bush for ...
Staying on vacation when he got the memo before Bin Laden would attack
Staying on vacation, eating Birthday cake and partying during Katrina
Letting bin laden go when they had him trapped in the mountains of Tora Bora in 2001 just to justify going into Iraq
http://www.infowars.com/articles/iraq/cs_letescape.htm
Blame Bush for a $4 trillion dollar deficient
Blame Bush for writing a lying ass memoir about his experience during 9-11 and putting it the NAT channel
What an embarrassing failure Bush is!!! That is a very accurate statement
LOL....O-M-G...That sounds sooooooo like that Al Sharpton guy on MSNBC in the afternoon..."English is my second language"
Didn't mean to get all petty but that's just plain cute.
Interesting tactic Fiesty and Navy, mmmm lets see whenever I call you out on using the Saul Alinsky playbook, you call me sensitive ha. Why dont each of you go back to any column with the words, Bachmann, Palin or Perry in them and watch the vicious personal attacks from you, Navy and all your gang in an attempt to make them seem less credible, less smart, less any personal attribute you think could change the way people think of these people. Then compare this to the democratic playbook from the Clinton era which is clearly based on the Alinsky playbook. When each of the women accused Clinton of being a sexual predator, what happened? Each of you personally attacked the accuser and where was NOW standing up for the victim which in hindsight we all know they were. This same approach has been used by the media since that point in time and by each of you now. So the best you can do is to create your own version of this by Rove? None of you have can just stand up for the things your politicians stand for and their accomplishments? I keep waiting for the list of "positive" accomplishments that Obama will run on rather than the so called list of horrible personal attributes of his potential competition. It points to a weak mind and no intellectual critical thinking. Can anyone please point me to one post by either Navy or Fiesty in which they actually responded to post on a topic with some sort of intellectually, critically thought out response that literally came from their own written word rather than first personally attacking the poster or sending you to other person's insight off another blog or the cut and paste response? Just one? Please I would love to see an example of either of these two people providing their own intellectually thought out opinion thats not personal attacks.
This is amazing and very, very interesting. It's like a sociology or psychology experiment right here on FIRST READ. Totally fascinating. Now you are all going to have to take a couple of steps back to see it but check this out.
Fiesty and Navy post the Fascist Manifesto and list the umpteen commandments of the Right Wing disinformation strategy and get this....
All the usual Right Wing suspects then, point by point, use those very tactics to try to discredit the publication of the manifesto. Absolutely amazing. Textbook.
If you go down the posts with a copy of the bullet points next to your computer you can just tick them off, one by one.
Good job Right Wing posters of proving their point beyond any shadow of a doubt. Wow, I'm just amazed.
In my business we call that "mental leakage", when the guilty party inadvertently admits their guilt by "Freudian slip", if you will.
Wow! Somebody, somewhere, just got a great teaching tool. You guys should publish these results they are amazing.
Nice bear-baiting Fiesty and Navy. Good show, well-batted, you knocked that one right out of the park.
Now, don't you RWNJ's feel foolish? You should.
Man, you just can't make this stuff up.
American Held Hostage, day 241
Obama/Biden 2012
Don't know Jody. Pat in Ma seemed to have some points of relevance.
Sorry but Friday it hadn't actually happened so no one knew what or what the government response would be. So some comments after the event, may be tiresome to you and you've moved on, but they hardly constitute a straw issue. As to there were others pointing it out, you really want me to get into the herd mentality of some posters? It's like you share a single brain.
Big deal. It's as important as the idiots on the right who claim the President is a disciple of Saul Alinsky. With unemployment above 9% these are both straw issues.
Madison From NY
The real hurricane will be the White House spin machine excusing and working behind the scenes to HALT the DEPORTATION of Obama's ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT UNCLE just like the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT AUNT Obama got off the hook why even WONDER why Obama prefers illegals over hard working citizens ISN'T IT OBVIOUS?
Barack Obama's uncle has been arrested and held as illegal immigrant
Madison, no it isn't
The real spin is how the Right Wing Echo Chamber lying about the President not doing anything about illegal immigrants and Att General Eric Holder.
This President has deported more illegal immigrants than Bush did.
________________________________________________________________________________________
That's all the White House does is "posture." Is that because Obama and his family are the biggest clan of illegal usurpers running (or jetting in AF1) around? Latest headline:
"Obama's illegal uncle arrested; 'Uncle Omar' almost hits cop car, tries to call White House"
Full story:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/watercooler/2011/aug/28/picket-obamas-illegal-uncle-arrested-uncle-omar-hi/
If the White House DID ITS JOB and DEPORTED "Uncle Omar" that would be ONE MORE JOB for hardworking US CITIZENS but what happens? The SAME hot shot lawyer who represented Obama's aunt NOW represents "Uncle Omar." Doubtless he DID PHONE THE WHITE HOUSE. Haven't US taxpayers PAID enough for ILLEGAL FREELOADERS?
@skip Nicholson, Oklahoma City
Yes Skip it really is quite brilliant. Create an imaginary document and when posts are made against it use points in the document to claim that your opponents are simply following the playbook.
As I said, a self-reinforcing delusion. Quite brilliant and quite insane.
jollyoldsoul1
Again.......can anyone of you show me where I can find a copy of this "document" with Mr Rove credited for writing it?
jollyoldsoul1
Ask Lady Sniff aka JoAnnaSmith1 she is great at finding things thought to be non-existent.
LOL - Keep digging Alan!
I haven't laughed so hard in ages... ;o))
Alan NJ:
You made my day, dude. You made the Bigmouth from Roselle IL lose her cool with the STFU outburst....how characteristic of a pseudo intellectual who can dish it out with the best of them, but can't take a little disagreement.Well done!
One More time........ Where Can I find a copy of this document with Karl Rove taking credit or being absolutely credited for physically writing with material? Not some 3rd person Opinion a real copy where he prefaces the document. Im beginning to think this is all contrived and speculation based on liberals assumption of the principles they believe are being used. Im asking you ....liberals not necessarily you Bev because I do believe this is even past your ability to produce, you have issues with simple spelling and grammar on more than a regular basis.
feisty with the bouffant wig, again has taken what others have posted out of context! Her first post (hehehe) she forgets that the discussion was about Mr and Mrs Obama's penchant for very expensive vacations and the fact that they frequently use seperate planes... increasing the costs of those expensive vacations! feisty was asked several times to explain why this apparent elitist abuse of vacations at a time when most American's are cutting back on theirs.
feisty was also called upon to defend obama's work record to date. She refused to address either the obama vacation abuse or defend the administration's record..... what she did do was to avoid these pertinent questions with personal attacks on the posters who dared ask them! Typical liberal 'dumbing up' when confronted with difficult issues! What a hypocrite redwig is....!
alan keep it up, the first whiners are a piece of work, hilarious comments
mikey proves he graduated at the top of the turblosson's class!
Mikey's managed to incorporate at least a half dozen of Rove's tactics in one fell swoop! LMAO!
Too bad mikey didn't comprehend what I wrote - where I clearly tell readers to go check it out for themselves...
Sorry mikey - no one's gonna take your word for it! ;o)
PS: Fiesty isn't playing the right wing nit wit game...
Alan,
You did it again Dude, numbers 1,2 and 5 in just a brief little deflective post. HAHAHAHAHAA, nice going, man. You proved my point brilliantly.
Like I said, you can't just make this stuff up. What a great teaching tool for somebody out there.
America Held Hostage, day 241
Speaking of 'pieces of work': From another headline this morning:
"For Republican presidential candidate Michele Bachmann, Hurricane Irene and last week's earthquake in the eastern United States were a message from God that Washington needs to change its policies."
So long, twit woman. 'Twas fun while it lasted, though.....
Just thank God that the results of this administrations actions can't be hidden in total. The liberal media does a good job of putting the old liberal slant on the truth. But, enough Americans have figured the President out. The next 16 months will not look any different than the the last 32 months. Obama's campaign will be about running down the opponent. He can't run on his dismal record. Obama will keep his "talking points". Best thing he can do , as more and more people will see through this all talk empty suit. The administration will keep treating the symptons, when the cause is in the White House. The cure is 16 months away. All of this non-sense you read here will not matter.
I love the site of feisty redwig caught in a lie, just don't like the smell at all....
Are you liberals......hanging your hat on THIS document. That cant be verified and can be interpreted as proven by DBO and Skip in any manner or fashion (Skip who the hells name is Skip?) The only person I could call that name with out laughing would be my former SEAL commanding officer. It was short for Skipper , for you non military liberals. The only good I can see out of this is that it will keep you busy for days, kinda like those games we used to play on long trips when we were kids. Red one....ewwww!!
Jolly, you apparently do not read. Try post 1.53 for your link.
Jolly doesn't want to see how Karl Rove tactics have been used..maybe he would rather see an email?http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/27/1010778/-BREAKING:-Leaked-Rove-email-singles-out-Daily-Kos
truth or snark?
For the life of me, I can not figure out what difference it makes what Karl Rove said or didn't say. We have an economy is trouble, a falling dollar, weak job growth and falling home values with an administration that doesn't have a clue. I guess it is an attempt to divert attention away from what really matters.
Good to see that Pat in Boston and Madison in NY are alive and well and have power & an internet connection as well.
I haven't seen anything from No Jo, No Bo, NJ and I hope she (he ?) is doing well.
Now that the hurricane is over, we can get back to important issues... like who is going to make the baseball playoffs :)
Straw Argument #1 for the General Election
Will I be allowed to keep my Health Insurance if I like it Mr President because so far my premiums have been adversely affected by the changes in the law you signed.
1) allowing 26 year olds to stay their parents policy raised the premiums for everyone in that group
2) unlimited lifetime benefits have raised my premiums
Exactly Tony it is a complete straw man. But by pointing this out you have created a straw man, in their eyes, thus labeling yourself as an opponent who makes straw man arguments.
As I said, quite brilliant but delusional and insane. Either way the electorate is not going to give a rats piss. Unemployment is the issue.
Numbers 1, 2 and 5 of what? I don't live in your make believe world.
dirp101
Good to see that Pat in Boston and Madison in NY are alive and well and have power & an internet connection as well.
I haven't seen anything from No Jo, No Bo, NJ and I hope she (he ?) is doing well.
dirp, I am glad too they're all safe. Bu, I can't say I'm anxious to hear from Donna No Jo, No Bo's relentless attack on President Obama.
If I'm not mistaken GOV Soprano, aka Krispie Kreme, in NJ said every one in his Soprano land had to get the hell off and stay in the house. You're tanned enough.
Maybe, Dr No is staying in for fear she may be forced to go right back in the house.
You know how those tRight wing tea tarty people
You got to laugh. All this cut and paste from every liberal source known to man. But, when you post your own thoughts and conclusions, these "cut and Paste" drones yell Fox, Fox. Really funny.
Beverly, you just can stand it when someone talks straight and to the point. You won't have to worry about that with Obama....something he never does. I am sure you will be happy.
In related news Al Gore and Barack Obama got a Message from God that Climate Change really really exists
Tony C-2383666
You got to laugh. All this cut and paste from every liberal source known to man. But, when you post your own thoughts and conclusions, these "cut and Paste" drones yell Fox, Fox. Really funny.
Well Tony C,
See it's like this you could be original and post some intelligent thought rather that mock real news.
Being a Tea Tarty that would be rather diffucult; would it? A Tea Tarty does not belong in intelligentsia class due to their cognitive dissonance. But you can change that conflict if you have something real and unimaginative.
DBO
I know, right? PS. At what point to the G-d 'Blamers' accept that if G-d is sending THIS message NOW,...that he also sent President Obama THEN?
Cognitive dissonance,...it isn't just for breakfast anymore.
I have noticed that redwig is still avoiding the valid questions of miked and others! Her silence on these subjects is deafening!
Exactly WHAT part of I don't respond to demands by you, mikey, billy etc... don't YOU understand?
One more time real SLOW for the S H O R T B U S C R O W D!
When you & rest of the peanut gallery QUIT moving the goal posts you might find someone willing to engage with you! ;o)
Until then... ta ta honey!
That's because he is a leader and can make decisions. If it had been the WH in charge they would still be waiting to hear the recommendations of the bi-partisan Hurricane Irene commission. (and then probably ignore them because the nasty Republicans might say no).
Beverly, First Iam not in the Tea Party. That is a compliment though. Because I do believe the federal government is too big and that the federal government needs to adopt ficscal responsibiity. I do not blame one party or the other, I blame both. It is time to stop accepting stupidity and mistakes Obama makes, because Bush was stupid and made mistakes. Obama has not proved to be a good leader. Obama has not proved he has what it takes to bring people together. There are plenty of examples to go by in this regard. The entire Congress is a problem. Again both Democrat and Republican. I know you are going to say that it is all Republicans and I only say it is both to cover up what you believe is a one sided issue. so to speak. We need tax reform and entitlement reform and a strong economy for this nation to prosper. It is time for both parties to accomplish this before it is too late. The Democrats need to stop the exaggerations of what is meant by reform. The Republicans need to stop getting even for 2 years of being poked at by the Democrats and cut out in the process. Obama should have not participated and instead took a leadership role from the begining. Disagree if you must. But this is what happened.
feisty (feisty?) No demands were made! Please control yourself.. or your wig will topple off!
This is a political discussion group, correct? A liberal biased group nonetheless.... so asking you to defend Obama's record is simply an effort to get a liberal answer to a question no one here seem's brave enough to handle... I believe when someone called you an evasive coward on this issue, they were correct! You seem to have taken offense, yet you use the same name calling tactics very well, especially when you choose to avoid answering a valid question..... Again, no demands, I'd just like to read your opinion on Obama's record! As one of his biggest supporters this should be easy for you...... I wait your response.
Yet another hateful, racist remark from Bev. I am Italian-American and I am calling you out for your remarks! You are a real piece of work (or piece of something).
Imagine your outrage if I made hateful comments like that about Barry. Think of all the EASY mud that could be thrown.
Yet there you are... doing the same old thing you ALWAYS do. Bev... you are a mean, nasty, angry person and YOU SUCK!

Bwahahahahahahahaha, (Maniacal laughter)
Never has one of my diabolical plans worked so brilliantly! Insane? They called me INSANE! They called Lincoln insane when he freed the slaves. They called Roosevelt insane when he dug the panama canal. They called BETTY CROCKER INSANE when she invented toll house cookies.
Bwahahahahahahahaha (Even MORE Maniacal laughter)
Look how cleverly and simply I have distracted them. It was so easy. Now they are making personal attacks on me and losing their ability to march in lock step or stock with today's talking points. Soon they will have to abandon their attacks and go back to their evil masters for direction.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA (really loud maniacal laughter)
Now, for for the next step in my diabolical plan........(stay tuned).........it's all coming together...........
American Held Hostage, day 241
Oh and JOS!, if you were a seal it must have been when you were playing horns for fish in a circus act. BWAHAHHAHAHAHA, now that's funny.
And Alan, you're number 2 in my book podna!
BWAHAHAHAHAHA...sometimes I crack myself up.
Man, am I on a roll or WHAT?
JoAnna -- You lack of humanity is inconceivable. Politics first and to hell with life huh? Disgusting.
I am still waiting for even one response that provides a historical post from Fiesty or Navy that illustrates their incredible grasp of these political issues in response or in debate with someone who has an opposing view that doesnt involve a personal insult or attack by them or doesnt involve a cut and paste of someone else's opinion rather than their own. I want real proof that they have the critical thinking skills to truly understand what they are saying and I want real proof that they discuss without the Alinsky method. John B, John A, Anna Molly, Stupid come guys you always say you need proof and so step up the plate and walk the walk.
I just finished lunch after a morning of cleaning up hurricane debris and helping neighbors do the same. Pretty much all nuisance crap. Nothing serious. For being, as Barry put it a "historic storm", it sure did seem to be a bit limp and wimpy. The clean up was only what I refer to as "storm turds", the small dead branches that drop from any significant winds and some small live branches from weak trees like poplars. (I almost wonder if trees might have political affiliations like weak poplars being liberals needing support and bracing from a "tree federal govt" to keep them from falling over with a slight pickup in wind speed?? LOL!!! Me? I'll go with the oaks that surround my house and didnt even so much as whine about "historic" Irene)
It's good to see that there are some constants in the universe. The FR regular lefty liberals were here bright and early for duty with their same old, same old, mournful laments. If my view on life sucked as much as theirs does every day, I would have eaten a .44 magnum years ago. LOL!!!
Joe -- Glad to hear that the damage and clean-up were minimal in your area. It seems others were hit much harder with flooding being the biggest problem many face. Expensive and not fun to deal with. 21 people lost their lives in this storm, sadly. For their families it was not insignificant. Can we have a little perspective and a little less politics concerning Irene?
Don't: All of those people have my greatest sympathy. "Don't" crucify me if: I have made a conscious choice to make sure I am as protected as possible from natural disasters. I live in an area where flooding is very unlikely, by conscious choice and planning when I purchased my home. Where I live, the greatest natural disaster threat is a winter blizzard. My home is built to withstand very heavy snow loads on the roof and is very well insulated for winter temps. Again, by planning and choice. I always have an emergency supply of bottled water on hand and sufficient non-perishable food to last at least a week, if not two, if I had to stretch it. I am happy to share anything with my neighbors in a time of need, as I think they would do for me. As I told another poster on Saturday, I am confident in my ability to deal with a natural disaster like Irene because I believe in, and practice, self-reliance, and independence, and helping neighbors. American values in short supply today.
Pretty funny stuff here today. I step away for a few hours and come back to find FR Conservatives twisting and spinning like crazy attempting to deny that they use the tactics at the top of the thread, all the while using those SAME tactics. They demand some proof, then summarily discard the proof.
They ask about straw issues like President Obama's vacation -- that he cut short in favor of being fully informed about hurricane disaster preparations.
It's rapidly deteriorating into name calling (racist, "cut and paste", "redwig", "drones", it goes on and on).
No one is stepping to the plate to defend the Conservative agenda, just more and more attacks. This has been one to remember.
BTW, the stock market seems to be getting a "hurricane surge" today. CNBC just reported that 99% of the S&P 500 stocks are up today. Maybe I'll have to buy a new generator with the profits.
"The Karl Rove playbook"
Only the loony left will use tripe such as this.
You fools understand that it was Mark Halperin (guess his political leanings) who came up with this? Not really concerned with Rove. He's the type we need out of politics.
As far as Snopes and Factcheck.org. Visit Snopes and read a few of their "opinions" and decide for yourself. Factcheck.org? Funded by the APPC. The same ones who gave Bill Ayers 50 million dollars for his liberal causes. Sure, they contributed a few thousand dollars to Republicans but not on the scale of contributions to the Dems. Just enough to appear non-partisan. But if you want a barometer on their leanings....consider this......fisty cites them all the time. And her partisan hackery is undeniable.
Joe -- Not knocking you buddy, just using you to point out perspective and a little thoughtfulness for others is needed. It is not a political issue but a humanitarian one. And I am truly glad to hear that your area and family are safe.
Thanks, and as I said the victims of Irene have all my sympathy, and the benefit of my donations to disaster recovery charities.
Crusty Babe! Happy Monday to you! Just read your thread that you started the day with. Awesome!
First things first, in addition to the Jam-of-the-Month Club, I purchased you a subscription to Dictionary.com so you can brush up on the meaning"manifesto". I know it's tough being four whole syllables an' all but the definition shant trip ya up too hard. But I digress.
Crusty Sweetums, I'll make a deal with you. Pick a number, any number from that drivel list and I will find an equally offensive tactic executed by the leftwing loons.
Talk about throwing baloney at the wall and seeing what sticks. Holy Cow!...lmao... That diatribe sounded like the current administration - blaming EVERY thing in sight for all of it's ailments. Dr. Art just made everyone who linked the "Rovian Manifesto"...lol...look like an idiot....lol....oops, I just used #3.
Anywhosers, back to the deal. Pick a number and I'll fund yer PayPal account with enough dough so you can purchase some more Kools and Mountain Dew. We need to work as a "community" so we don't miss a day of that type of genious. Priceless...crap #10
Can you believe this? Amazing, absolutely amazing.
I point out to them that they are using the very strategy illuminated in the Facist Manifesto for Disinformation to attempt to discredit the manifesto and they are STILL DOING IT!
Unbelievable!
Even after my original post, if you've got your copy of the talking points you can run down the list of RW responses and just tick them off the list one by one.
I even pointed this out to Alan and his response was right out of the manifesto. Amazing.
Oh, and here's the best part, the Fascist Manifesto talking points are now being exposed on other threads. Yep, that's right. Somebody whose blog moniker I did not recognize cited it on another thread.
Ya gotta love it.
Hey Alan, JOS!, JoJo and all the rest. You gotta get another play book. This one has been outed. Now if someone would just out turdblossom my work will be done here.
America held hostage, day 241
Obama/Biden 2012.
Oh, and here are few hits from the past, let we forget.
Mitch, where are those jobs you promised us?
Mitch, so, you thought that strategy worked so well you're planning on holding America hostage again next year?
Mitch, your sole objective is to make Obama a one-term President?
I just didn't want you to forget Senator McConnel and all the things he's done for America in the past 241 days.
America held hostage, day 241
Obama/Biden 2012 For a better tomorrow.
So with a major hurricane predicted to do huge damage on the way, Obama left his vacation early, and goes back to Washington to be on the job.
The hurricane is not as bad as predicted, but still a major weather event causing a lot of damage and I bet the people affected by it were glad FEMA was on the job.
Under Clinton, FEMA became an agency respected for doing a good job, quickly and efficiently.
Bush saw FEMA as a PR agency since that is what hurricanes were for him (a chance to join his brother passing out water bottles in the post hurricane sunshine). So he appointed a mediocre PR man, who he owed a favor to, to head FEMA.
Katrina showed that Bush's choice of Brownie didn't work out so well, and maybe he should have cut his Texas ranch vacation a little short when there was a forecast of a cat 4 hurricane centered on New Orleans. But no, a fly over 3 days after that fact, plus a "Fine job, Brownie!" was good enough for him.
And now, all conservatives can do is complain the the hurricane didn't meet up to expectations, and isn't it horrible that Obama was on the ball. I tell ya, you just can't win with these people.
I say, let's all be happy that FEMA is once again doing what it was intended to do, rather than function as a PR stunt for a cowboy from Texas.
Hurricane Irene, Eric Cantor, and the Republican Hostage-Taking Politics of Disaster Relief
Posted by MICHAEL STICKINGS, Assistant Editor in Politics
Think back to Katrina. We learned a lot from that catastrophe, did we not?
Well, not all of us.
House Majority Leader Eric Cantor didn’t — or at least doesn’t care.
Just as Republicans held the country hostage over the debt ceiling (“give us what we want, or else”), Cantor is now trying to do the same over disaster relief (some of which may be needed in his home state of Virginia, which is in Irene’s path). As his spokesperson explained, “Eric has consistently said that additional funds for federal disaster relief ought to be offset with spending cuts.”
It’s one thing to demand offsets in theory, or even at the negotiating table, quite another to do so with a major hurricane bearing down, with a natural disaster possibly at hand. It would be like if a dying man desperately needed a blood transfusion but you refused to give him any unless he gave you his house and car. (Which is actually how health care works in the U.S., but let’s not go there.)
This was Cantor’s response to the earthquake that caused significant damage along the east coast, including in Virginia, it’s his response to Irene, and it’s his response to disaster relief generally. No money unless money is cut elsewhere. In other words: Give us what we want, or else. And you can be sure he won’t agree to cuts to military spending. He just wants to cut programs he’s ideologically opposed to — relatively insignificant funding for, say, public broadcasting, or more significant funding for the poor and those who otherwise are vulnerable and need government help, like Social Security and Medicare.
Consider the message he’s sending to the people along the east coast, in Irene’s path. We’ll help you but only if we can also weaken programs that help you. You get some disaster relief, but, otherwise, screw you. That’s what this comes down to. (Virginia Gov. Bob McDonnell, a Republican, has pre-emptively declared a state of emergency. Cantor apparently doesn’t care.)
This is cruel and unusual. As Steve Benen provides perspective:
A while back, during a different debate, John Cole noted, “If these guys were comic book villains, no one would buy it because it’s just too over the top.” It’s a sentiment that comes to mind all the time.
Tom DeLay never went this far. No one has ever gone this far. U.S. officials have always put everything else aside when families and communities are hit and need a hand, but now, thanks to the new House Republican majority, those principles have been cast aside.
*****
We can obviously hope for the best when it comes to Hurricane Irene, but at this point, Republicans are apparently intent on literally adding insult to injury.
“Adding insult” is a nice way to put it. This is ugly ideological extremism operating as insensitivity to suffering, political hostage-taking with lives and livelihoods in the balance.
In 2011, it’s the Republican way.
http://themoderatevoice.com/120807/hurricane-irene-eric-cantor-and-the-republican-hostage-taking-politics-of-disaster-relief/
__________________________________________________________
If your neighbor’s house is on fire you don’t negotiate over the loannation of your hose to help put it out.
In fact most of us would have already had it hooked up and would be hustling to help him out.
You d@mn sure don’t hold a gun to his child’s head till you get a pound of flesh out of him.
To do any less is decidedly Un- American and certainly not Christian by any stretch of the imagination.
Great post, IR. If Cantor had said that disaster relief spending would be funded with cuts in Congressional pay I could get behind that. Otherwise, I suppose I have to give him credit for ideological purity but he certainly seems to be lacking in heart.
IR:
Just another example of the radical rights New "Hostage" Doctrine that McConnell said he would use again and again for political gain. In this case we have people and their lives being held "Hostage" by a rabid group of Un-American politicians.
Wait until they get back next week and we are going to see another round of BS like we saw before they left. More "Obstructionism" and another downgrade pending.
These guys are on a mission to destroy the Government as we know it and Democracy along with it.
President Obama in 2012.
President Obama's approval rating 36% - The TP/GOP 12%. The people are feed up with all of Washington but with the Tea Party Congress more than anybody else.
Didn't Cantor also make the same despicable threat over the Joplin, MO disaster?
A Message from God.
“I never told Michele Bachmann or Rick Perry to run for Anything.”
“I did suggest that They Stop Lying and support All Peoples right to live and not just the Rich, and stop Harassing Gays, Mexicans, and Muslims, However.”
GOD
You owe me a new monitor Job! - lmao...
Great post, IR. We have serious infrastructure needs, many of which have been in place for years and some of which are becoming desperate. We have extensive flood damage in the Missouri River basin and all up the East Coast. We have huge numbers of workers who would love to have something to do.
We have plenty of things to do--Republican Conservatives just won't allow it.
Cantor, Bachmann, Paul, Huntsman - they are all swinging in behind Grover Norquist, the Heritage Fooundation, and the Cato Institute with an increasingly-shrill attack on the fundamental institutions of our government and the values that erected those institutions.
America learned so many vital lessons in the 20th century as the nation slowly progressed. The nation learned the value of labor, the decency to care for the needy, the helpless, the vulnerable; the nation learned to appreciate its natural resources and appreciate beauty as an essential in life, the nation learned the fundamental need for equality and justice ... and so much more. At the fall of the Soviet Union, a huge veil tore apart, revealing how a relentless and rapacious drive for development heedless of the consequences had poisoned the land and water all across central Europe - a lesson from abroad that only emphasized how important government is to preserving life and propserity.
America's many lesson were only acquired through persistent struggle. Some, such as larbor relations laws, were taught in blood. America, over that time, grew great. But starting in the 1980's. the country also began a profligate course, one that turned its back on many hard-won victories, and began spending the coin of commitment to public principles. And there followed disastrous results in series - the savings and loan debacle, the corruption of Federal officials at the highest levels, repeated recessions, and ultimately the collapse of the country's entire economy, taking down with it the world's economy as well.
This was not accidental. The very policies and methods advocated by the entire Republican Party presidential field only seek to continue the dismantling of a great nation, full rejection of the nation's principles in favor of the profits of a few and the impoverishment of the many.
The political campaigns underway now are literally a fight to save this nation from vulpine predators.
Red The only non-discrimination Eric practices is that he doesn't discriminate against the hostages he takes. He'll hold anybody hostage to get what he wants.
Feisty:
AHHHHHH Yes;
I even just put up the titles of the Rove Play Book without the detailed narratives and they have used about half of them already.
See people, you really need to read this excellent tutorial on what these radical right wing folks are trying to do here. If you understand the methodology (Rove Play Book) you will very quickly see how impotent the New TP/GOP really is.
No New Ideas and the ones they have are the ones that caused the problems. They are not about facts but use lies and misdirection coupled with deceit to try and move their failed agenda forward.
DO NOT LET THEM - Expose the lies.
Terrific post, IR.
Whatever respect I once had for the GOP has disappeared completely the past 2 1/2 years. Cantor said the same thing after the outbreak of tornados this spring that killed many people and leveled entire areas. If we are no longer a collective society that aids our fellow citizens east, west, north and south of us, then we are no longer worthy of the description the GOP likes to flaunt--"American exceptional-ism".
Job1. Applause, applause!
John A:
Outsatanding post.
Job1:
Kudos to you post as well.
Irene should be quite instructive for all of us. First and foremost: Government responded quickly. Notifications went out early and often. Pre-planned efforts were put into motion. Pre-emptive measures were implemented. The media put out enormous amounts of information. Considering the size and impact of Irene, we came through this very well. Grit your teeth government haters. This was a job well-done.
Irene - a natural occurrence - is going to be used as a weapon to gut social programs, thanks to the likes of Cantor as IR so clearly shows. Cantor is the poster child for malevolence. He is Pontius Pilate. He stands before us, washes his hands and tell us there is nothing he can do. His hands are tied. We will have to choose which of the helpless among us shall die.
As Republicans continue to destroy the United States government because they insist government is the problem, not the solution - ask yourself this question: Why is it, these guys spend millions upon millions of dollars to become part of the problem?
Yes, I know it was the evil government that was largely behind the creation of the Internet, but be brave. Be tough. Use that tool. When you listen to Cantor trash the government, after you have puked, check his biography. He is virtually a lifetime recipient of government largesse. When you listen to Rick Perry trash the government, check his biography. He is virtually a lifetime recipient of government largesse, and it has made him a millionaire. The same is true of Mitch McConnell, John Cornyn, and Jon Kyl - whose father was a Congressman, and the list goes on and on and on.
These are the same people who rail about government handouts to the poor. Handouts to the rich and the well-connected? Well, that's different.
I'm not going to post this fact again. I am not a Democrat. My last party registration was Republican, but they are so far over the top that I cannot imagine ever returning to that party. The leadership is crazy and/or stupid and/or purely driven by ideology. I am unaffiliated and will probably remain in that status for the rest of my life. What I will do is work to see that Democrats take an active role in shaping our government so we can crush corporatism and the stranglehold of Big Money on America.
As a veteran, I hope you will join me in this effort. I really hate the idea of watching America reduced to third-world status.
Would that be the 2.2 million dollar replacement of 8 good Curbs in my neighborhood by union construction companies kind of stimulus? I know if you go to the government website, they list where that good money has been spent. But the reality is, its my neighborhood and I personally observed the entire process. The best part of the work was the signs declaring this was a your stimulus dollars at work. Would have mad a priceless Visa commercial.
jollyoldsoul1,
We have the same signs in California, and that's it, signs!
Fisty what did Obama try and get through the House?
Close to where I live, we got a couple of really nice urban renewal projects, including new streets, new light fixtures, new landscaping, and total revitalization of slumping commercial corridors for the benefit of many businesses.
Maybe you both (JOS1 and thetotas) should think about replacing your city officials. Sounds like THEY'RE the ones who don't know what they're doing. Workers just do what they're told; they don't do the planning. Planning is the job of the really smart folks you elect, just like negotiating with the unions and stuff is their job, too.
The unions didn't apply for the stimulus money, and they aren't responsible for how your elected officials appear to have wasted it. ;-)
Ummmmm Anna, This is Detroit D E T R O I T........ ding ding ding! they would re elect the former Dem. Mayor who just got out of jail and is facing federal racketeering charges in the fall. In fact we found out last week that we have 530,000 Democratic voters in Detroit, the amazing part if that there are only 513,000 people of voting age in the city, and gosh.....they cant fix it until after the election. Gasp!
David Walker -
I enjoy reading your well thought out posts.
Regarding "watching America reduced to third-world status" and "the stranglehold of Big Money on America", I'd like your take on the following points that a like minded friend of mine (a Vietnam Vet) past on to me.
- End corporate person-hood
- Withdraw the corporate charter of any corporation which fails to serve the public interest
- Prohibit the importation of any product produced with labor paid at a rate less than the current US minimum wage
- Nationalize resource extraction industries
- Establish a maximum after tax income
- Make sustainability the primary objective of government
- Create a culture in which individual acts of unsustainability are treated the same as driving while drunk
- Adopt an electoral system which includes instant runoff voting, increased ballot access, and paper ballots
- Adopt a multiparty system using proportional representation
- Adopt the parliamentary vote of no confidence process
- Elect the President by popular vote using instant runoff voting
- Adopt public funding of election campaigns, including debates to which all candidates are invited. Require media outlets to cover those debates and donate media for campaign advertising
- Establish a Department of Peace, with funding greater than the Dept. of Defense
- Utilize the government to create full employment
- Stop the drug war
- Reward whistle-blowers
- Make the CIA transparent
- Enforce the Bill of Rights...
Wow, jolly..that many Democrats moved out of Detroit or died? How many Republicans moved out? ;-)
Sorry, JOS -- my mistake.
I understood that you, as a highly paid IT security employee for a major company, did not actually LIVE in Detroit, but rather lived in some swanky suburb where your neighbor the teacher played golf all summer long while you slaved away to pay the taxes that allowed her to do that.
When did that change?
Or was that just one of those O P I N I O N S that you've been talking about?
jollyodsoul - need to cut AnnaMolly some slack. She's from the heartland. Milking cows, plowing the fields, hangin your shingle kind of stuff.
We Detroiters (and Metro Detroiters) have a slightly different view of what Democratic rule for decades can do to a city.
See AM, Live in the city or live in the suburbs, we all pay through the nose to support Detroit. Ask me about our water/sewer rates sometime.
Heck, look what just 8 years of Granholm did to our state!
But those signs sure are nice and sturdy.
WCA -- I don't live on a farm. And actually, I grew up near Milwaukee, in the heart of suburban republicanism. It didn't take, unfortunately.
But feel free anytime to come visit my fair adopted city, which has been ruled by democrats forever, and has unemployment half the national average, excellent infrastructure, and a public education system that is VERY tough to beat anywhere.
We didn't have serious fiscal problems, either, until we met Scott Walker. You really have to admire the kind of thinker who would deliberately turn down federal stimulus dollars just to make tweak Madison, and then spend $30 million in our own tax money to make up for it.
Even dumber than Rick Perry, who at least passed HIS state's spending bill in the other direction.
Sorry AM, my mistake. I thought all those "Reports from the Heartland" that you have been posting implied a rural setting.
So tell me AM, what would account for the incredible difference in the Democrat Utopia that you describe in your home town vs. the democrat destruction that has taken place in my hometown?
See, the Detroit Public Schools are some of the worst in the country. Illiteracy is at 47%. Unemployment is twice the national average Crime rate is off the charts (half a dozen murders/shootings this past weekend, in fact). Can't use the downsizing of the Auto Industry, because it's been this way for a long, long time.
So what, pray tell is the difference?
Same thing that plagues Milwaukee in my own state.
White flight, bigotry, despair, and economic disadvantage.
Milwaukee used to be a beautiful, vibrant, and diverse city, but when the flight began, it never stopped.
Doggone those uppity po' folk for asking for economic and social equality. Couldn't have that, now, could we?
Much easier to run.
Richard numbers:
Wow, that would take a book to answer you post. I'll try to give you some shorthand answers.
Corporate personhood - There is some serious history behind this. Here's a link: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2469/how-can-a-corporation-be-legally-considered-a-person
What makes that interesting is that the corporation has rights, but no corresponding punishments that remove rights. They cannot be jailed, there is no death penalty, etc. Make that "personhood" complete and we're talking.
Otherwise, let's remove the fiction of personhood and recognize a corporation for what it is, a paper creation - nothing less and nothing more. Free speech for paper? Please. (Never did I imagine that the Supreme Court could be bought and sold. I always thought of those guys as being above the fray. I actually used to like Scalia.) We might also consider attaching complete legal liability to Boards of Directors and executives. Make those guys responsible for EVERY action of the corporation. Let them EARN their pay.
On importation, I am something of a free-trader. Why deny a competitor access to our markets simply because their workers will work for less? Rather than stifle competition, we should learn how to compete. For years, we simply dominated markets by producing products no one else could. We can still do that, but we have to find the markets we can dominate. It makes me sad that we are not willing to invest in education so we can grab world leadership in energy creation, storage, and transmission.
This is a very small world. We should be dictating change, not standing by while others assume the mantle of leadership.
With respect to extraction industries, I still like private enterprise handling these things. However, we must always know that greed - with all its attendant evils - will rear its ugly head. That is why we must fund the most pro-life agency in the U.S. - the Environmental Protection Agency. (I can't understand why Michelle Bachmann and Sarah Palin, both alleged pro-lifer's would kill the EPA.)
I don't know the answer to the income tax dilemma. I know that we must have a realistic budget and revenue requirements based on income taxes must be very flexible. I don't believe that high income tax rates are the impediment to creativity and investment that the right-wing would have us believe.
With respect to sustainability, that's a tough one. Necessity is the mother of invention. In some cases, there are no alternatives to certain resources. There is a finite amount of timber, but only at the moment. We can plant more forests, we can create new building products. The same is true for energy and a host of other items. Protect those resources too much and there is no incentive to create. Allow wide open development and we can bet on wholesale destruction of resources.
I have to skip some stuff, because I really have other stuff to do, but I think perhaps the most important item on your list is the public funding of campaigns. We must find some form of public financing that allows legitimate candidates to run for office without begging for money from potential masters.
Department of Defense, Department of War, Department of Peace. I don't think it matters what you call it. War and conflict seem to be in our DNA. It is a sad thing to say, but conflict seems to be the norm - not peace.
I'm out of time, but I have to give you my thoughts on the drug war. End it. Wars never end in victory. Wars never end. Since the dawn of time, man has sought drugs, whether for healing or for recreation. You might want to check the history of laudanum. That'll open your eyes.
Anna, google 8mile rd and John R. you will find out where I live, I live here in Detroit proper because of several reasons. It would be very difficult for you to take a stroll down my street once dusk sets in.
1. I like the city lifestyle and and Im a emergency foster parent and enjoy helping children in very bad situations and you cant get any more difficult than here.
2. Anna they have rules about where you can live if you are a public employee of Detroit so yes I do have several teachers working (for now) and retired in my neighborhood. They are a few of the people NOT of welfare or bridge cards. And WCA is correct we not only pay high water and sewer costs we also pay a Detroit city tax just for living with in city limits!
3. Im the Chief network engineer for a global auto parts manufacturer and while I do make a good salary, I give away a lot of my income to various groups and charities as well as providing 2 bedroom in my home fully furnished for a boy and a girl when delivered to my home at any hour of the evening with only a plastic bag of clothes if that.
I will finish with the fact and none of this is OPINION. I as you probably are aware spent 10 years of my life in a spec ops weapons group and am qualified and licensed to carry and use several weapons classes. I go no where with out a weapon because while I like living here ( and its only about 4 or 5 more years) I am fully aware of where I live. We had 17 shootings two weekends ago in 3 days with 7 people killed, including a 5 year old girl sexually assaulted killed dumped on a mattress and doused with 47 cents worth of gas then torched. And you would wonder what would make people move out of this city!
JOS1, we conversed on your "only 2 projects in Detroit" line once before, and I linked you directly to data that refuted your position. You continue to spout the same lie. Here http://www.recovery.gov/Transparency/RecipientReportedData/Pages/RecipientReportedDataMap.aspx you can see that Michigan received $8.6B in recovery aid which funded 8,327 projects credited with supporting 10,763 jobs. Last time I gave you over a dozen projects just within 1 zip code.
While I don't have time to summarize the data for something like 40 zip codes in Detroit I don't need to in order to prove the most important point. You're using the "Big Lie" technique of Conservative propaganda to make an assertion that simply isn't true.
David, I just hit the wrong key and deleted my concurring reply.
So, suffice it to say that I appreciate you getting back.
So John......you want me to believe a web site opposed to my actual visual observation. Sorry Im a former spec ops military man. I beleive what I see. not what some website says. geesus you are a sorry individual!
No, I want everyone else to realize you're a liar. The first time I was willing to believe you were just unaware of your surroundings. Since I've proved you wrong once but you throw out the same BS it makes you deliberately untruthful.
LMAO.......Sure.....and people who lie that much always lead a successful military career and and 20 years with companies like at&t, General Dynamics, Oracle as well as several of my own companies and now the Cheif Network Engineer of a Global Manf. company of over 60,000 employees. I hold a top secret security clearance......Im betting you couldnt pass the interview process! I would show you my DD214 but I would have to kill you after. lol Your pathetic! I was having a discussion with a bunch of my Independent friends and yes I have voted for several Democratic Presidents Carter and Clinton to name two (I actually served under Carter and was part of the failed Hostage rescue) One of them actually asked me "Have you actually met anyone who will admit to being a liberal, I never thought of it.....But no I have not. Since I got home from South East Asia (protesters) and I live in down town Detroit. I have no idea where you all hang out, but its not where we are.
All of which means nothing to your claim that Detroit had 2 stimulus projects that cost a lot of money without providing any jobs. You claim authority because you only saw 2 projects. Big deal, I've never seen the Pacific Ocean, does that mean I get to claim it doesn't exist?
OMG......The signs were up on my street and I watched the work being done. It was the running joke on my street and Im one of 3 white people in my neighborhood, I bet if I had taken a picture of those signs you would find some silly assed reason to deny them. You DO NOT win this discussion based on stupidity and longevity. And John since I have lived in 4 different countries and 7 different states I guess Im smarter than you! P.S. Ive seen the Pacific ocean from the other side several times. Same water different languages. You really should get out and experience different cultures, so you have something to compare yours too. Eat a few bugs......drink some fermented goats Milk. And that picture on my account was my own personal goat and he was damn tasty as a farewell dinner.
It doesn't matter where you've lived, or what you've eaten. You've repeatedly made the ridiculous claim that the stimulus only fixed 2 curbs in Detroit. Last time you made that claim I showed you 14 projects in 1 of the many Detroit zip codes and suggested you might have a better idea what's happening there if you went anyplace besides Meijer.
There were NO ARA projects in my neighborhood. Does that mean I get to claim the money didn't benefit Des Moines? Of course not. There were projects all over town, just none in the few blocks around my house.
9 times out of 10 people who feel the need to post suspiciously longs lists of just how important they are and how much they have typically are none of what they claim.
Nice to start a Monday morning reading several hate-filled posts.
Pointing out facts is hardly hate-filled unless the person reading them cannot stand truth.
O P I N I O N S <-------- that's what they are!
DENIAL ----- that's what THAT is...
You really don't think these liberals will discuss the issues now do you? They are all about attacking anyone who may be running for President against Obama and attacking any idea that is not liberal in content. They will deny that. As you indicated, just read the hate and bitter language they use. Like most things they will deny what is right in front of them. Kind of like Obama if you think about it. Watch them pat each other on the back. It is funny....
DENIAL that we wont just accept your opinions. Really!
Hilarious, Huntsman outsourced during the Bush years, but now he's saying it's Obama's regulations that leads to outsourcing.
Before Huntsman talks about a job plan, he should explain why he outsourced when Bush cut regulations and allowed businesses to repeatedly deliver harmful children toys to American store shelves.
Well said, Dan. Not to mention, of course, that Republicans continue to block elimination of the tax advantage for offshoring jots.
So true, Dan.
lmao...... now the right is killing our kids...... Hey I got an idea....... Can we get a picture of the candidates clubbing some baby seals next. And even better eating the blubber, wait (insert nasty Feisty comment here) I couldnt bear to do it.
Awesome post, IR
As usual, Eric Cantor demonstrates his ignorance and total lack of concern for the American people.
Idiots claiming day-in and day-out to be on "the same page today" makes for great comedic reading. It's like we don't know they are the same people or collaborating before the posts.
Tactic #5: "The Big Lie."
John b,
What's the big lie? Collaborating before the posts?
They all have 'gotomeeting" accounts. lmao.......OMG can you imagine the techie nightmare!
I don't know why you post the Obama "tactics". We see it. We live it every day. The results are clear, that is unless you listen to "socialist lineup on MSBNC.
Ben-636050
Idiots claiming day-in and day-out to be on "the same page today" makes for great comedic reading. It's like we don't know they are the same people or collaborating before the posts.
Ben it beats the hell out of being like a broken cuck coo clock.
BTW, are you right at least twice a day you sound like a cuck coo clock?
Very intellectual post there Bev!
What a loser!
Bev its a Coo Coo Clock unless your boyfriend is a cuckold
Dear First Read:
I really was enjoying your analysis this morning . . . right up until I read this line:
Help me out please . . . how can an economic projection be equated with a promise?
This is a quote from the actual report that nobody in the media has time to read:
Can anybody explain to me how a projection based on an entirely different stimulus package using numbers from a previous economic cycle have been morphed into a "promise"?
At least you didn't repeat the lie that President Obama "promised" . . . but newsflash . . . NOBODY "promised".
For anybody out there who cares at this point, this is the link to the actual report that has been spun into oblivion at this point in the name of "narrative" building:
http://otrans.3cdn.net/45593e8ecbd339d074_l3m6bt1te.pdf
The incoming Obama economic team issued its jobs projections with regard to the effects of the stimulus package on January 10, 2009.
President Obama was inaugurated on January 20th...just ten days later.
Only 28 days after that, on February 17th, the Obama Administration's economic stimulus plan had already been passed by the large Democratic majorities in Congress and was signed into law.
The public and the pundits have already decided the issue of whether or not the Obama economic team's plan and projection for jobs and economic growth achieved its targets and expectations...after all, their accomplishments are now a matter of record.
We know what was actually delivered.
"Promise" or no...the current state of the economy is what it is.
The architects of the Administration's projection are gone...and no one is clamoring for their return.
Keeping in mind that the plan that passed wasn't the plan the Obama team submitted. It was both downsized and Republicans insisted that 27% of the money be used for the least efficient means of stimulus -- temporary tax breaks.
The unemployment rate for February 2009 was already at 8.1%, right at the rate that the oft repeated lie says the President "promised" the stimulus would avoid. . . more inconvenient truths side-stepped by the say-anything-to-win crowd.
As we are still finding out, the economy was in a MUCH BIGGER hole than we were led to believe. I guess folks expected President Obama to be a psychic and know things that he had no way of knowing. . . more non-reality based whining from the same folks who championed the policies that destroyed our economy.
Oh well.
Nash----it is frustrating when the media fails to do its homework on an issue such as this one. A projection based on assumptions which are later found to be inaccurate because the problem was worse than we all knew now becomes a "promise".
Nashville fan:
Go get 'em. That report, by the way, was issued before President Obama took office. You have also included the KEY quote from that report: "...as emphasized above, there is considerable uncertainty in our estimates: both the impact of the package on GDP and the relationship between higher GDP and job creation are hard to estimate precisely. . ."
The guiding principle in the world of Economics is the notion that economic decisions are rational decisions. That's a crock. That Economics is based on this ridiculous notion is the reason I have always like the adage that says if you laid all the economists in the world end-to-end, they would not reach a conclusion.
No one knew how horrible the economic decline was going to be. No one knew the extent of the housing bubble and the fact is, we still don't. Try this little report on for size. This should knock your socks off, and I'd bet there's a whole lot more we don't know and never will know. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-21/wall-street-aristocracy-got-1-2-trillion-in-fed-s-secret-loans.html
This is another one of those ridiculous lies that will not go away. The stimulus did work. That is the conclusion of a clear majority of those who have studied the package. Again, that is the reason you don't argue with the right-wing. They will not budge from this lie. Just as they love to trot our the CRA lie about the housing bubble, they will continue to do so with the stimulus.
Save the TRUTH weapon for those who have not swallowed the right-wing lies.
President Obama was elected, in large part, to address and turn around the deteriorating economy.
President Obama entered office with large Democratic majorities in Congress and overwhelming support from the public.
Within 28 days of his inauguration, the President signed his stimulus package into law.
The economic projections released in the first days of January 2009 were the judgments of President Obama's own incoming economic team. He chose that team. On economic matters, there's no distinction to be made between the President and his economic team. They served at his pleasure.
Demands that President Obama and his economic team not be held accountable for his response to the economic crisis, and the results of that response, simply won't fly.
Any suggestion that a thoroughly defeated, humbled, and demoralized Republican Congressional minority dictated the Obama Administration's economic policies in the heady days following President Obama's historic election and triumphant inauguration is simply nonsense, bordering on fantasy.
That notion is completely delusional. Why would anyone believe it?
It only serves to demonstrate just how far are President Obama's supporters willing to go in the ongoing effort to ensure that, unlike any of his predecessors, he alone somehow manages to avoid responsibility for his job performance.
The President's falling job approval numbers suggest that the public is holding him accountable...exactly as they should.
So Mixed Bag is the designated porch pooper this morning . . . gotta say Mixed . . . not your best work . . . good to know you miss me though . . . the feeling is sadly not mutual.
Stinky little critters aren't they Nash? lol
Thanks, Nash-
Your defensive, whiny braying aside...
The response tells me my aim is true.
:-)
Mixed Bag -Any suggestion that a thoroughly defeated, humbled, and demoralized Republican Congressional minority dictated the Obama Administration's economic policies in the heady days following President Obama's historic election and triumphant inauguration is simply nonsense, bordering on fantasy.
Hi Mixed Bag - You do remember that the Democrats needed 60 votes to get past a Republican Filibuster to pass the stimulus? At the time there were only 57 voting democrats in the Senate. The Franken - Minnesota vote was not certified until June 2009. Ted Kennedy was deteriorating with his cancer and did not vote. So in fact the 57 democratic senators had to craft language and policy (tax cuts) into the stimulus to garner moderate republican votes. Enter Collins, Snowe and Specter (then a Democrat). With those 3 R votes appeased the legistlation was able to break the filibuster.
Regarding responsibility, Obama as the President despite all of the mitigating circumstances and obstruction must accept blame for the economy. He has said so himself in a quite honest and truthful declaration to CNN's Wolf Blitzer. Paraphrasing but said that if conditions are not better in four years then the public will have to consider him as not successful. As you know, the economy and its resurgance does not happen in a vacumm. However, the truth of the matter is that blame for our problems should be shared by the Republican Congress and the Democratic President.
Be of good cheer my friend, despite your worries the electorate will blame Obama and the Democrats in 2012.
So as not to be accused of posting contrary to what is discussed in First Thoughts, hopefully all is well with you and yours after that terrible hurricane.
I see Pat, Boston, Alan, NJ and others along the east coast have signed in. Hopefully others like No Jo, NJ and Ira Lapin - other New Englanders chime in.
Good morning Yellowdog . . . you can stop by my porch any time . . . thanks for your comment. :o)
Mixed Bag: "Any suggestion that a thoroughly defeated, humbled, and demoralized Republican Congressional minority dictated the Obama Administration's economic policies in the heady days following President Obama's historic election and triumphant inauguration is simply nonsense, bordering on fantasy."
Please look up the number of times these "thoroughly defeated, humbled, and demoralized" Republicans used the procedural filibuster since Obama was elected. If you want to dismiss facts as fantasy, that tells us pretty much everything we need to know about you.
Nashville Fan - I'll take you up on that! :}
Flat out lie. And I quote from the stimulus proposal document
Wish to retract your statement John? I think you would get a "Pants on Fire" from PolitiFact?
So from this can we conclude that John McCain was right to call for a suspension of campaigning to address the economic crisis and that candidate Obama was wrong to continue? He can't be right in both instances. Either he misjudged the crisis showing his economic naivety or he was right and got the stimulus wrong.
Nashville_fan
Dear First Read:
I really was enjoying your analysis this morning . . . right up until I read this line:
Help me out please . . . how can an economic projection be equated with a promise?
good morning Nash
An excellent question, when will the media report the truth inside of spin?
You are as usual resonate with succinct rationalization!!!
BTW: when will the MSM debunk that lie the President promised 8% unemployment?
Have you noticed that LIE has gone from 8% to 8.5% now?
Mixed, you deliberately ignore the response you don't like and instead misinterpret the response to fit the narrative you want.
Playbook tactics #2, #4, #5, #15
Hey Alan how long do you think that McCain and Obama should have suspended their campaign? If they would have suspended it until things were better we would still be waiting for it to commence. In that reality, Sarah Palin would still have a chance of being VP. Whew, glad that didn't happen.
McCain was wrong in calling for the suspension of the campaign. Yes Obama was naive but he was correct in calling to continue the campaign and to back the TARP as a candidate. Then he was knowledgeable enough to address accountability issues and transparency of how funding was going to which bank. Last time I heard the TARP was most paid back.
No harm no foul on TARP. In fairness though Obama and everyone else was naive to think that banks would use their TARP funds to actually unfreeze credit and loan to businesses. They used the TARP funds to ensure that they had enough capital to pass their stress test holdings. Probably used very little of that money to lend, instead shored themselves up instead.
Regarding the stimulus, my opinion is that most of all economists were wrong about the severity of the recession and the size of the stimulus that was needed. Some like Paul Krugman thought that it was not large enough or was incorrectly directed to areas that would not stimulate the economy.
As my earlier post mentioned the stimulus was the best Obama and the democrats could get through Congress and was not necessarily what was required.
Greetings, Mark.
I live in California, but I share your concerns and hopes that others haven't been seriously impacted by Irene.
Now...
The overwhelming majority of Congressional Republicans opposed the $800 billion stimulus bill...still, it was law only 28 days after President Obama was inaugurated.
28 days.
I repeat...any notion that the minority in Congress (I believe that my description of the overall state of the Republican minority was accurate) was dictating economic policy to the Obama Administration is nonsense.
President Obama summed up his attitude (and really, the whole situation at the time) in a bipartisan meeting on the stimulus proposal only days after his inauguration:
"I won."
Remember, First Readers?
"I won."
Indeed you did, Mr. President.
ad victorem spolias
Otherwise, you're completely correct on the issue of accountability, Mark.
Tell that to the people who survived the hurricane but have no electricity, if you know what I mean.
Mixed Bag - I do like our talks but we evidently aren't seeing completely eye to eye on this. In the Senate a minority of sufficient number can dictate the rules and the legislation. Case in point HCR, Wall street regulatory reform, pending job bill legislation, tax policy. The fillibuster and its uses was probably the reason why when Reid had the chance to limit the filibuster number from 60 down to 55 he and everyone else balked.
I placed you in the wrong state. You know what I think I mixed you upwith dangerfield or someone else living in New York. Oops.
@Dog
Hey Dog. My point was that certain posters are trying to rewrite history regarding the stimulus and the President's responsibility in it's formulation.
No I don't think they should have stopped campaigning, a gimmick on McCain's part, but to then claim that the administration didn't know had bad the crisis was is just trying to avoid responsibility.
TARP I think worked. Crazy idea but they were crazy times and they got most of the money back.
As to the stimulus, how could it have been bigger? You saw from the quote in my previous post that they had too much money for "shovel ready jobs". The President admitted that they did not have enough infrastructure jobs at the ready for all the money they had.
However, I think the stimulus has basically failed and could have been structured differently. Imagine 4 years of 200m spent on infrastructure instead of what we had. In fact there is a suggestion in an op-ed today that we should have a national infrastructure plan that would have projects planned and ready in the event of an economic downturn. It would be based on the procedure to award scientific grants.
Two other things came out about the stimulus that interested me.
The first was the admission by Christina Romer that they underestimated how difficult it was to move the amount of money through the system. She was an academic and didn't know how things work in the real world. The second was the statement by Larry Summers who claimed he was told in 2009 by the house leadership that they had their own stimulus and they didn't need input from the WH. To me this was the first sign of the lack of leadership that we have seen over the last three years.
Alan:
It is sad to see you calling John B. a liar when selection you posted echos what he said - tax cuts are a less effective means of stimulus.
Reading is fundamental Alan.
AM-
Cheap shot, dear.
You're better than that. Lawyers specialize in precise language.
The Latin had nothing whatsoever to do with Irene.
Nor did anything, other than my initial comment to Mark.
Whyever would you think it did?
Having a bad day?
Sorry if that's the case.
In any event...give me the benefit.
Read my comment again.
@Nash
I was referring to the part of John's post where he claimed that Republicans insisted that 27% of the stimulus be tax cuts.
I'm sorry if the context was not clear but in my defense he (John) did state"that the money be used for the least efficient means of stimulus -- temporary tax breaks"and the first line from the stimulus proposal that I quoted starts "Tax cuts, especially temporary ones, and fiscal relief to the states are likely to create fewer jobs than direct increases in government purchases." My mistake if you infer that I was claiming that tax cuts create fewer jobs when I quote both sources making the same claim.
However, now that we have cleared this up do you accept that Republicans were NOT responsible for insisting that 27% of the stimulus money be used for temporary tax cuts when
a) it was proposed by Christina Romer as part of the stimulus
b) they did not vote for it
Or do you now want to quibble that they insisted on the amount being 27%?
BTW If you do insist that the Republicans were responsible for the 27% that they didn't vote for, can you give me any other example where politicians are responsible for the policy they vote against. (Individual Mandate is not allowed as its the same theory).
Reading comprehension is pretty big too
No problem, Mark, with the confusion about my location.
And, sincerely...thanks for your concern.
That aside...President Obama was in the driver's seat (with no ambiguity, whatsover) when the stimulus bill was passed.
The fact that the Republican minority in Congress got anything at ALL in the final legislation is surprising, given their piteous, abject, and embarrassing position after November, 2008.
If they somehow managed to leverage their diminished status, Mark...
Who's responsible for that...when Democrats enjoyed a large majority in the House, a significant majority in the Senate, and the bully pulpit of the White House?
The Senate filibuster...?
Really?
C'mon, Mark.
Real leadership from this White House should have completely marginalized the Republicans in the wake of the outcome of the November, 2008 general election.
Completely.
First Readers should at least try to be honest about how and why we got here...from there.
Cheap shot?
Well, I never.
Easy, Bag Boy -- a little grumpy today, are we? And not just as reflected in your post to me, I might add.
I'm actually having a pretty good day.
And you, of all people, should know that's not how I work.
It was just a joke. A very bad, apparently, hurricane joke, having to do with produce spoliation, and such like. A play on words, so to speak.
I wasn't making any comment about your comment whatsoever.
I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid.
Sorry. I've never given you anything else BUT the benefit.
Yellowdog:
Some very wonderful person put the following together. I wish I had thought to take down their name, because he/she certainly deserves rich credit for the work and richly deserves attribution.
Senate Supermajority myth
January 3, 2009 - 111th Congress sworn in. 55 Democrats, 41 Republicans, 2 Independents, 2 vacant.
January 15, 2009 - Roland Burris sworn in to Barack Obama's seat. 56 Democrats, 41 Republicans, 2 Independents, 2 vacant.
April 30, 2009 – Arlen Specter changes parties. 57 Democrats, 40 Republicans, 2 Independents, 1 vacant.
July 7, 2009 – Al Franken seated. 58 Democrats, 40 Republicans, 2 Independents.
THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THE DEMOCRATS HAD A SHOT AT A
60-VOTE MAJORITY.
August 25, 2009 – Teddy Kennedy dies. Kennedy had missed 97% of the votes in 2009 and over 90% in the last half of 2008. 57 Democrats, 40 Republicans, 2 Independents, 1 vacant.
September 25, 2009 – Paul Kirk appointed to Teddy Kennedy's seat. 58 Democrats, 40 Republicans, 2 Independents.
THIS IS THE SECOND TIME THE DEMOCRATS HAD A SHOT AT A 60-VOTE MAJORITY.
February 4, 2010 – Scott Brown sworn in to replace Paul Kirk. 57 Democrats, 41 Republicans, 2 Independents.
June 28, 2010 – Robert Byrd dies. Byrd had missed over 90% of the votes in 2010 and almost 50% in 2009 due to illness. 56 Democrats, 41 Republicans, 2 Independents, 1 vacant.
November 29, 2010 - Mark Kirk sworn in to replace Roland Burris. 56 Democrats, 42 Republicans, 2 Independents.
Super-majority? It existed only for a total of 6 months AND only during
two periods when Teddy Kennedy and/or Robert Byrd were unable to vote AND
required them to get the votes of every Democrat plus BOTH independents.
FACT: The "Democrat supermajority" is a G.O.P. lie.
FACT: The GOP used every roadblock, filibuster, and secret hold they could think of so that EVERY bill had to have a 60-vote margin to pass.
Alan:
Thank you for clarifying your comment. In terms of who proposed the 27%, I have no idea and I have a feeling that it doesn't really matter. As you point out, the Republican Party was and is against all stimulus, except for tax breaks for "corporate people". Perhaps a better question would be what does the Republican Party plan to do to address jobs and the economy that represents anything different than the same failed policies that got us into this mess to start with? In the absence of any reality based plans of their own, what really is the point of nit picking the President's efforts? I will take something over nothing every time.
The primary point of my post is to say that I am tired of the debunked President Obama and/or his advisors "promised" the stimulus would keep unemployment under 8%.
While First Read did try to base their commentary on actual facts, they kept the word "promise" . . . and that is a foul ball in my humble opinion.
If ya wanna rip the President a new one, please use real life facts and reality is alls I ask.
Peace.
AM-
As usual, we are operating at cross-purposes.
In the refrigeration context (which I honestly hadn't considered), your comment makes perfect sense.
Maybe it's me, after all.
Sorry.
:-(
@David Walker
So basically Teddy Kennedy and Robert Byrd are selfish bastards who wouldn't give up their seats. Even when due to debilitating illness that prevented them from performing their most basic job responsibilities they allowed their states to be underrepresented at a pivotal time in history? Both states had a Democratic governor at the time so the Democratic party would not have lost any seats.
Is this post supposed to elicit sympathy or is just another attempt to deflect blame from the Presidents lack of leadership in building a political consensus?
Alan - You bring up some good points about shovel ready jobs and its true meaning. As I have intimate knowledge of the length of time to get construction jobs approved and through permitting reviews. To the laymen shovel ready jobs is a good term, but there really are no true shovel ready jobs in the architectural/construction field.
A job may be designed and ready to submit for approval but it doesnt' mean it will instantly start. Not counting the bidding requirements, which for Federal projects are more time consuming, gaining approval from all parties and jurisdictions is a task.
If we are speaking about infrastructure there could be county engineering permits, department of transportation approval, site planning approval, erosion control and environmental reviews to consider. Worked to get several projects permitted through Houston when I was in the private sector. Although I focused mostly in industrial, retail and commercial building construction and not infrastructure and engineering projects, I had some projects pending review by the City of Houston for six months or more. Note, by no means am I saying that these governing bodies don't need to review the job drawings. However, it is just something that has to be taken into account in the project schedule.
The stimulus failed to produce enough of a jolt to the economy and didn't do enough to curb unemployment. I believe we are at a turning point, as other posters have said much more eloquently (one of them David Walker) than I can, some of those jobs will not come back. Companies will continue to go oversees to find better profit margins, new technologies will eliminate middle class and working jobs. I don't know what the answer is.
David Walker I agree with you about the false super majority talking point. The democrats had it between Franken's certification and Scott Brown's win, but I forgot about Bryd and his illness.
How about a debate over something like this? Not sure if I agree or disagree but would like to hear more and some further depth.
www.tnr.com/article/economy/94275/shiller-infrastructure-debt-stimulus
No apology necessary. So sorry that I didn't make myself more clear.
I figured you had just misunderstood me, but thought it might be fun to tweak you a bit.
What else are "cross-purposes" for, after all? ;-)
David Walker-
I'm certain that you're correct...as always.
But...
Please offer us your equally detailed essay on why Majority Leader Reid and the Senate Democratic majority has never, EVER... made a credible effort to change the filibuster rules you so despise.
Harry Reid and his colleagues in the Democratic Senate leadership have not warmed to, nor really shown any enthusiasm, whatsoever, for changing those rules.
They could have been changed as recently (January, 2011) as the beginning of the new 112th Congress.
Isn't that correct, David...?
Why didn't the Democratic Senate majority attempt to change the filibuster rules?
They bleated about it...but, did nothing significant at all.
Explain.
I can't wait.
Is there any way this process could be streamlined? I'm not thinking in terms of faster but more a single entity that could co-ordinate the government departments? Say for example you have a Federal Infrastructure Department. It would be their job to do the paperwork for the project (permit wise), and the contractor would simply bid, and attest to their meeting the contract criteria (workforce, wages etc which would be reviewed by the locality anyway in the normal course of business).
Alan:
I am about to head home . . . I will check out the link and comment tomorrow.
Alan:
Draw your own conclusions as you wish. The information I posted is accurate in every respect.
@Mixed Bag - Please offer us your equally detailed essay on why Majority Leader Reid and the Senate Democratic majority has never, EVER... made a credible effort to change the filibuster rules you so despise.
Mine isn't detailed. Politics. I remember Tom Harkin Democrat from Iowa was the only one to propose to change the filibuster rules. Obviously his plan didn't pass. Can you imagine if Reid would have agreed to reduce the number down to 55 to allow 45 votes to break a threatened veto? After what happened in 2010, with further losses in 2012 the GOP could render a threatened veto from the Democrats as inconsequential and futile.
Alan - Not to make light of your suggestion, because sometimes it is a good idea to funnel everything to a single source, but I doubt there is one single authority that would have all the necessary knowledge bank to ensure regulations are met, codes are enforced, safety of public is ensured etc.
I guess it could work but sometimes creating a big entity doesn't solve the problems.
MB,,,I had heard a rumor that Mr Walker had once made an error........but it was proven to be wrong!
Mark-
Clarification:
Senator Harkin's proposal to change the Senate filibuster rules couldn't pass muster with his own Democratic caucus...or, his own Democratic Senate Majority Leader.
Any changes, big picture, wouldn't really have been futile at all, Mark. Certainly NOT for any member of the Democratic Senate majority who really, REALLY...believed that the current rules are unjust. Or, any Democratic Senators who felt the existing filibuster rules are subject to abuse by the minority party...ANY minority party.
Maybe it's simple hypocrisy, Mark. Perhaps you're correct, and Democratic Senators feel they'll soon be in the Senate minority.
Still...
You either believe the current Senate filibuster rules are wrong...or you don't, Mark.
I guess we know what the current Senate majority thinks about that.
Anyway...
Where's David?
He's the filibuster expert.
I saw a story last night that indicated that some rebuilding projects in Joplin, MO will be slowed because FEMA does not have enough money to fund recovering there and the recovery in the East from Hurrican Irene. FEMA says they will not take money from individuals but some building of infrastructure will not delayed because of limited resources.
My question is: How does FEMA get its funding? Does it require Congressional approval?
It does, IiI, all federal work requires approval starting in the House of Representatives.
John B:
Very true, over 2 Trillion Dollars and counting in much needed infrastructure maintenance needed. The earthquake and hurricanes are showing how weak and fragile many of our infrastructure programs are. If we were to address just a portion of this is a targeted infrastructure bill, we could add millions and millions of good paying jobs that would stimulate the economy, increase revenues and lower the deficit/debt.
But no Cantor and his goose step crowd are more concerned with holding this country "Hostage" again.
People wake up, the New TP/GOP is NOT an American Political Party. They are not friends of working Americans, they are just the opposite in just about every sense. They want to dismantle the government and destroy Democracy and the Working People - Period. These are not American values.
Going to be hard to sell, and with good reason. The stimulus, remember shovel ready jobs? i remember Obama out selling the stimulus package and on several occasions noted infrastructure. So what happen?
Navy, and you call Republicans fear mongers! To much drama this early in the morning.
John Boehner, Eric Cantor, Mitch McConnell and Grover Norquist "happened."
Obviously and in arguably they are BAD for the United States Government and American way of life.
Get rid of them...
I'll see "Not as stupid's" answer, and raise him by a Rick Perry, a Tim Pawlenty, and several other mostly republican governors who used stimulus money not to create jobs, but rather to pay off their own deficits, essentially passing along their states' credit card debt to the rest of us. In Perry's case, alone, $6.4 billion.
How can money used for that purpose create "infrastructure" jobs? Answer: It can't.
And ironically, the same governors who used stimulus for this purpose are among those crowing most loudly about how the stimulus didn't create any jobs. Rick Perry, for example.
I think we can also add to our discussion the fact that a lot of the stimulus -- somewhere between 30 and 40 percent, I believe -- was in the form of tax cuts, which conservative economists convinced the President to include in the package, while the more liberal economists opposed it. Those tax cuts, like others throughout history, were doomed to fail, at least if job creation was your measure.
What is it about a tax cut, do you suppose, that creates an "infrastructure" job? Answer: Absolutely nothing.
This is support for my comment above that between 30 and 40 percent of the stimulus was spent in tax cuts.
http://useconomy.about.com/od/candidatesandtheeconomy/a/Obama_Stimulus.htm
Thus, tax cuts represented 36.6 percent of stimulus money.
Another 28.5 percent was used to stave off looming disaster by extending unemployment insurance benefits, saving jobs in education, and maintaining health care programs. It would be tough to see where shovel ready, infrastructure jobs should have come from out of that $224 billion.
In the end, only about 1/3 of the stimulus was actually targeted at job creation, and doubtless not all of those were intended specifically to be infrastructure jobs.
I saw it work in my own city. It's unfortunate that in some places, like Texas, it seems to have been misused.
Theotas - i remember Obama out selling the stimulus package and on several occasions noted infrastructure. So what happen?
Could it be that there is more infrastructure repair and maintenance required than could be dealt with in the $800 billion stimulus? Mind you that not all of it was directed to stimulus.
As an architect working on the state level in the management, maintenance and repair of often crumbling facilities I can tell you first hand that funding is always an issue when tyring to address infrastructure. So much to do. Believe me petitioning your legistlatures or Texas represtenatives were to no avail when it came to state funding for my agency. Did I really think my agency would be spared when Texas slashed Education. Silly me. You don't have to take my word though, after all I'm just an activist union member and state bureaucrat.
According to the ASCE American Socitey of Civil Engineers our national infrastructure rating is a D that necessitates $2.2 trillion of repairs and maintenance in 5 years.
America's Infrastructure GPA: D
Estimated 5 Year Investment Need: $2.2 Trillion (Source - infrastructurereportcard.org)
Aviation D
Bridges C
Dams D
Drinking Water D-
Energy D+
Hazardous Waste D
Inland Waterways D-
Levees D-
Public Parks and Recreation C-
Rail C-
Roads D-
Schools D
Solid Waste C+
Transit D
Wastewater D-
The issue with the the stimulous and "shovel ready" jobs was that all the Congress people (in both parties) lumped in everything they wanted, so that very little actually was used to stimulate the economy. A large portion went to the states, to use as they saw fit.
Many, like Texas, used it to balance their budgets and TA DAAA!!! These Republicans are geniouses who balance their budgets. Some states actually did use it to create infrastructure jobs, repairing roads and bridges. Now that the Federal money is gone, no more road repairs are being done.
Part of the stimulous went to immediate tax relief. Most people did not really see it. They just used it to pay off their existing debt.
That was the issue with the stimulous, rather than spend it, many people just paid off debt. While paying off debt is not a bad idea for an individual, when the vast majority do that, instead of spending money, the demand in the economy is not there. Too much of the stimulous was devoted to supply side (aka VOO DOO) economics. Not enough was being spent immediately, creating the demand side.
The only way the economy will turn around is not by additonal tax cuts. They don't work to create jobs, they only create additional profits. Demand must be created and the Federal government is the only entity large enough to create the demand needed. They must be accompanied by huge increases in taxes to pay off the debt!!!
Anna Molly -- Nice breakdown of the stimulus. I think many forget where and who benefitted. Some of it went towards balancing budgets just as the "settlements" in tobacco are now being used. I read something this morning about settlements in the housing crisis lawsuits. Will anyone face a jail sentence? Doubt it. Instead they will take the money and use it toward tax cuts for the very same entities that paid the settlement. In other words another boondoggle.
It all ended up as debt. Great results..... o you liberals always put your heads in the sand?
Less debt than 2 wars and Medicare Part D...and Republicans would make it worse with additional tax cuts for the rich...what's your point?
Point? The stimulus did absolutely nothing. So why did Obama continue those wars? Medicare Part D keeps coming up as if Democrats were not involved. Also, any time any one suggests reform, democrats throw a fit.
Economists, disagree. http://www.economy.com/mark-zandi/documents/End-of-Great-Recession.pdf
Not that President Obama has asked for my advice, but I hope he starts out his speech on the economy and jobs with a recap of the number of bills his administration has proposed in Congress that address employment issues. After demonstrating the failure of both parties (mostly Republicans but assists by Democrats) to pass the legislation, I hope he proposes a package of jobs bills and challenges Congress to enact them. Let's see whether Congress steps up.
Steeler Fan there is no way in hell the republicans are going to let anything that could possibly help the economy or unemployment get through congress, the "only" thing they are interested in is keeping people unemployed until the election, the people and country be damned, a truly treasonous lot.
I think you are correct, w bush, but they do all want to be re-elected and their approval ratings are so low. My hope is that the President calls their bluff by proposing jobs bills that are paid for with spending cuts---let them be the ones to say no.
In post above, meant to say will be delayed because of limited resources. Apologize for the typing error.
First read said:
I think that given the information available at the time, the government and the media acted appropriately. You can't wait until the storm is on top of you to make preparations and / or evacuations. You need days of lead time. At the time those decisions had to be made, the National Hurricane Center (NHC) had forecast the storm to be a major category 3 (borderline category 4) storm. They also forecast that it would skirt the outer banks and make landfall in the NYC area. Had that scenario panned out, it would have been an absolute disaster and we'd be talking about what a great move everyone made in evacuating.
Look at it from the opposite side. What if the media and government had said "Once again, the NHC is trying to scare us with a ridiculous hurricane forecast...just keep an eye on things." And then the storm acted as forecast. Not good! Down here in south Florida, most of us remember Wilma...wasn't supposed to be that strong when it crossed Florida...instead, it was stronger and caught a lot of people unprepared. Many people did not put up their shutters. That certainly added to the damage estimates.
It's been said over and over again, but when it comes to these storms, prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Also, keep in mind that while this wasn't the disaster for NYC that some had predicted, several lives were lost and there was some fairly extensive flooding damage!
Happy Monday all!
Good Morning Grimey!
I couldn't agree with you more!
This is one of those damned if you do & damned if you don't situations...
Thank goodness Mother Nature decided to show some mercy at the last minute.
It's always better to be safe then sorry!
I agree with you Grimey----even with the advances of recent years, weather forecasting is not an exact science. I do think the media jumped on the story even more than they usually do---can't decide if it was programming fodder for the dogs days of August, a grab for ratings or because it impacted them more personally since NYC was involved. Probably a combination of all 3.
Florida is used to preparing for disasters and disruptions of the transportation and electricity system. The rest of us, not so much, and certainly not on as wide a scale, covering NC to ME, as Irene inflicted. Am I the only one who sees this mega-hurricane as the perfect drill for a widespread calamity like a major earthquake or, God forbid, dirty bomb?
What an excellent test for our first responders, and for families needing to get a plan in place. It even happened on a weekend! I know I feel better prepared. Forewarned is forearmed.
Hi Amy...
How did things go up there? Any flooding issues for you? Hope not!!
We in Florida are definitely more prepared than most although we still find things that are overlooked with each hurricane. Thanks to the storms of 2004 and 2005 we learned that most gas stations and grocery stores were not equipped for long term power outages. Now, most are. Hopefully the mid-Atlantic and Northeast can learn a few things from this storm. Sadly, it appears that 22 people have lost their lives in this storm so far. :-(
BTW...if i am not mistaken, Hurricane Katrina made landfall 6 years ago today! And what is the next name on the Hurricane list? Katia.
I also agree with you Grimey. Another thing about many folks is, they are good at projecting the fake outrage, no matter what steps were taken.
PS, towards the end of the day, our local news anchors started to get punchy, and mess around with the preparedness instructions they had been repeating over and over all day. It was actually pretty funny. It's nice when a disaster is not so much of a disaster, as an excuse to come together.
Grimey,
We can all learn alot from Florida, in terms of disaster prepardness, for sure.
I'm worrried about the anniversary of 9/11, seeing New York on the TV again, going trough it's drill, brought back those memories.
Well said Grimey. Well said.
Frank:
I agree with you 100% - Touche'
Right now here in Vermont they say the flooding has been the worst in about a century. Virtually most of the roads yesterday were closed for one reason or another in the State. Covered bridges floated away, etc. The wind was not the problem, the rain was the big issue.
Ive lived in both Maine and I currently own a residence in Florida. I went through Hurricane Gloria in Maine. 5 days of back to the woods of yore! Florida.....not so much! The ocean waters warm enough to bath in..... in Maine the only place I will swim is at the state park in Phippsburg! the tidal water can get warm.
Agree Grimmey, we all appreciate a reasonable republicans point of view on this blog.
You would think that since Jon Huntsman doesn't have a chance in hell of winning the Republican nomination, he wouldn't come at us with more warmed over BS like "uncertainty" and we need less "regulations".
And about that rescinding the mortgage deduction thing? Why is it that is on the table, but we are STILL subsidizing oil companies and agricultual corporate behmoths? Perhaps the mortgage deduction needs to go or be tweaked, but dammit, there is a whole hell of alot of money out there being wasted on corprate subsidies that should go first.
And also too, why in the hell is the media letting the Republican candidates get away with the whole "revenue neutral" tax reform gambit? I mean, if we are not raising additional revenue, what is the freaking point?
The mortgage interest deduction helps put the American dream of home ownership in reach for many people---the lower taxes paid due to the deductibility of interest helps the cash flow to make mortgage payments. The home ownership keeps people invested in their communities and schools and creates some stability. In the good old days it also helped save money since your home could be counted on to appreciate in value. I guess a multi-millionnaire like Huntsman wouldn't see the benefit of all that. Better to keep tax rates lower for Exxon.
Well said Steeler Fan . . . and good morning! :o)
Yeah, proposing cutting EPA regs (especially under the disingenuous guise of lowering barriers to entry for small businesses) just cost Huntsman any chance of getting my vote, even if he were somehow to get the nomination.
Nashville -- Huntsman cherry picked the mortgage deduction and without calling for an end to all the crazy loopholes, credits, deductions for all it is just another tax increase on middle class. I'm all for doing away with all credits, loopholes and deductions as long as they lower the rate to an effective average rate most pay now. Jumping through hoops to get there is a game they (Congress) likes us to partake in it seems. Not such fun in my book. I find no certainty or freedom in being controlled by Congress through the tax code. What I do see is more ways to divide the nation through class warfare via the tax code. Why is there no outcry about that form of government control??????
Raise capital gains....a no brainer!
End all subsidies, loopholes, and deductions for business as well. Lower the rate to an effective average there as well. Use effective R & D spending and subsidies(if necessary) that are targeted and goal oriented with an end date.
Revenue neutral???? What the heck is that? How about they figure out how to end this quagmire they legislated this economy into and concentrate on building a foundation that brings in revenues that were lost when the financial geniuses decided the next big boom would be the very homes we all live in. This truly is a balance sheet disaster they created and are now crying to be bailed out of....for the third time!!!! I say BS, let the chips fall. The average American needs certainty too. Are they content with the level of revenues coming in? Do they not want the majority of Americans working and businesses thriving to contribute to rebuilding this great nation? "Revenue neutral" sounds a lot like defeatism and likely a path that doesn't include the concept of growth in any facet of our society.
Clean taxes, clean bills and clean initiatives! That is a clear path to "certainty".
David Walker:
Excellent post as always . . . it seems to me it is always middle and lower class Americans who are asked to foot the bill, while the "corporate people" do as they please, knowing they are "too big to fail".
Recipe for disaster. . . as we are witnessing.
P.S. When will people realize that our "majority rule democracy" has been replaced by a "money rules corporatocracy"? Over and over the Congress does what it wants, no matter what "we the people" say . . . our "representatives" have been purchased and our voices have been sold. When will folks start to notice?
Oops . . . I messed up the name in the post above . . . was addressing my repy to Don't_Carry not David Walker . . . it must be Monday or something . . . sorry!
What a pathetic defense of the disastrous Obama economic policy.
The Obama team didnt "promise" that unemployment would go above 8.5%, they just "projected" such...like that makes any difference !
What an epic failure.
Dearest Bob:
I am sorry if you don't know the difference between a projection and a promise. I did not defend anything, I just pointed out the truth that nobody promised anybody anything.
A fact which you cannot refute.
An estimate is not a promise. An estimate based on a fictional stimulus that did not resemble what actually passed the Congress is not a promise.
Lazy journalism and constant spin are a recipe for epic fail.
More of the Fake Outrage from boobie.
when all else fails......start calling names.
Bring back the old Bull Moose Party.
Bullwinkle for pres dude
"...Marty moose, its Marty moose..."
Clark Griswold
Those sound like constructive and rational proposals. More proof that Huntsman hasn't got a prayer of winning any primaries in the Mad Hatter's Tea Party.
Shhhhhh...What you won't read on First Read:
Obama's uncle has been illegally in the US for over 25 years, and he was just arrested for DUI in Mass., for almost running into a police car. He then tried to call the White House. That makes two illegal aliens in the Obama family; along with illegal alien and welfare moocher Auntie Zenuiti, who lives in public housing.
I think we all of relatives that we would like to dis-own and get far away from.
Job1----I have a relative who isn't a Steeler fan! How embarrassing for me.
However... My bet is that most of us do NOT have relatives that are in this country ILLEGALLY!
(let alone two of them!)
.... But do most of us still have any Billy Beer?????
p.s. Has anyone seen Perry's original birth certificate? Does he even have one?
Perry doesn't need to show his birth certificate. He's obviously American-born and raised. He doesn't have anti-American parents.e's got an American name. He's a Republican. He's a Texan. And he shoots coyotes! No doubt at all about his American bonafides. But if he's asked to do so by some smartass, angry jerkoff of a liberal, I'm sure he'll do it in much less time than it took B. Hussein Obama to do it.
Damage123
Slick Rick threatened to secede from the Union if he doesn't get his way. That wasn't very pro-American of him.
Damage123, I'm new here, but I honest-to-God can't tell whether you're using sarcasm to make fun of the Republican caricatures here or you actually ARE one of them.
Damage123 proclaims about the good Governor Perry: "And he shoots coyotes!", the American people will quickly learn how to shoot coyotes too, and eat them if Perry is allowed to spread his "Texan" jobs disease around, they won't be able to afford to real food. Robber barons and surfs the kind of stuff that make republicans all giddy, no thanks.
Welcome Ash. I've been hanging around here a long time & I can't tell whether Damage is serious or not, either!
Houston!
Sorry that one has been debunked. LOL!
http://factcheck.org/2011/08/what-perry-really-said-about-secession/
Of course that would be the Republican position... typical double standard. Democrat Obama suffers the wrath and ire about it, but Republican Perry "doesn't need to..."
This is a textbook example of what we are going to get rid of November, 2012; it is un-American as this nation was founded upon the self-evident truth that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL. Past time to get back to our roots...
Of course he wouldn't have to show his birth certificate...but the partly black son of a Kansas woman should...
bush set the standard for how to NOT HANDLE A NATURAL DISASTER LIKE KATRINA !!! under bush the head of FEMA(brownie) was nothing but a political "hack" with no prior emergency preparedness experience !!! President Obama has had the wisdom to place professionals in positions of authority at FEMA and as a result, things went fairly smoothly with Irene !!! so, the lesson learned is-DON'T ELECT MORONS FOR PRESIDENT WHO PUT THEIR IGNORANT BUDDIES IN PLACES LIKE FEMA !!!
If the earthquake and the hurricane are God talking to Bachmann telling them to listen to the American people? It will be interesting to find out if she only considers the rich as the American people.
I wonder what the drought in Texas is telling Scarry Perry? If you follow Perry the whole country is going to dry up and blow away.
Houston: Not sure about proposal one, but two and three sound rational to me. Of course, at some point "rational political leaders" would realize that the current economic problems will have to be solved by a combinaiton of measures to raise revenues and cut spending. I am not convinced that it can be done without both.
Â
Where are all the jobs Boehner and his Republican buddies promised they would create after the mid-terms? Maybe Perry will get elected and everyone can work and collect welfare at the same time, get their health-care through Medicaid, that will really help out the nations debt problem. Perry's new campaign slogan, "A Nation Of Working Poor And Damn Proud Of It".
Interesting article demonstrating how bogus Rick Perry's Texas "miracle" is. Since 2009, it's GOVERNMENT jobs that have increased, in part thanks to the Obama stimulus, while PRIVATE sector jobs have been lost. But of course, the wingnuts around here won't believe the article because it's from that notorious liberal-biased newspaper, the Wall Street Journal.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111903999904576470232177476242.html?mod=ITP_pageone_1
Again -- the left loons that are scared to death of Perry put out contradicting drivel. One side says they were low paying minimum wage jobs. Then others say they were government jobs which can hardly be described as low paying -- especially when there are great benefits involved. The comedy show continues. LMAO.
The general understanding is that in Perry's government they could be.
He seems to abide by some different set of rules than regular people.
Ben-636050
Yeah. The Wall Street Journal is just crawling with "left loons." It's amazing how people like you are able to hermetically seal yourselves off from reality so completely.
After pandering to Iwoa's own John Deere... Economic freedom comes from businesses that higher people for a living wage instead of the bare minimum or as in many cases sitting on their money and not reinvesting in the future.
Since I think y'all is stupid I'm going to tell you a flat out lie about how smart I was at age fourteen...
"Lies, lies, lies, yeah their gonna get you..."
Houston, Finally got around to Perry bashing. Perry really scares the liberals and the White House.
Real Texas Facts:
People behind in their mortgage payments 90 days:
USA - 7.4%
Dallas Texas 4.8%
Foreclosures:
USA - 3.5%
Dallas, Texas 1.5%
Tony C-2383666, ignoring the fact that Perry depended on the Obama stimulus and GOVERNMENT jobs to keep the unemployment rate in Texas below the national average while actually losing private sector jobs, sez:
Oh, I see. Only vitriollic diatribes like the ones you spew against Barack Obama are permitted here. Sorry. I don't agree.
I'm well aware that Texas did better than other states when the mortgage bubble burst. I'll bet that Tony C is also equally aware, although he may prefer to pretend ignorance, of the fact that Texas did better because it had stricter REGULATIONS on mortgages than other states did. I'd give Perry credit for backing those stricter regulations when then-Governor Bush and the Democratic legislature agreed to enact stricter regs in 1997. But I doubt the teabag people would be very happy if they find out that their Great White Hope actually favored them, back when the Republican Party hadn't yet gone completely insane.
Keep under estimating Perry. Keep under estimating the effect of a poor economy and poor job growth when it comes to Obama's re-election.......keep the faith in Obama speeches.
From today's Gartman Letter... a little food for thought regarding the effect of taxes on a free market... and how intended consequences don't always match reality... Please read the entire article then think about corporate jets. ;-)
What was the demand for mortgage derivatives in 2003????? IPad a classic example of the good side of "supply side theory". Mortgage derivatives arguably the most economically destructive example of why "supply side theory" fails when left unchecked.
The private jet tax like the yacht tax are political non-sense, but making corporations pay a reasonable tax rate is not, same with hedge fund managers, nor is taxing capital gains as income, our tax code has thousands of lobbyist inserted loophole all designed to do one thing, make sure someone does not pay their fair share, there is not a damn thing wrong with getting rid of all them and the economy would not suffer because of it, you see the one thing that the wealthy will never stand for is a "fair" tax code and they will let the country go to hell protecting their loopholes. Not to worry though the wealthy have a small army of soulless commandoes in D.C. that will fight to the death protecting their precious loopholes and subsidies, these cold blooded morally bankrupts heathens are known to most Americans as the U.S. Congress, a most despicable lot indeed.
I am not economist... but i fail to see how mortgage derivatives were the problem. I think the problem was then as it is now... greedy people tried to get more than they deserved. The people that took out the mortgages knew they could not afford them, but took the loans anyway.
As usual, you want to blame the evil corporations for the ingorant choices of the american public.
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BTW... wbush... I agree.
I am in favor of a flat tax rate for everyone. And I mean EVERYONE. That includes welfare recipients becasue I don't care what anyone says... that welfare is income for them.
We can establish separate rates for personal and corporate taxes but a flat rate (with no deductions, period) is the ONLY fair rate.
Also, the government pushed the lenders to write these folks. Any push back was met with the "prejudice" claim when lenders rejected the applications.
Sicko - this is where the writings of this supposed economist are an epic fail. Tying the decline of the yacht building business to the increase in taxes MAY be as causual factor. Yet, no where does the author delve into the actual cause of the decline. For example, was the decline actually caused because the wealthy, knowing in advance of the tax increase, made early purchases, creating a boom-bust cycle? Anyone can draw conclusions about how tax increases kill industry. But few ever offer the real culprits.
One thing for sure. You can argue all day long whether a tax increase will kill jobs or not. But, a tax increase will not create jobs. So, what is Obama's real goal? More tax dollars to spend or job creation? All this allienating and agitating by the President does not help solve problems.
By the way the yacht business went over seas whether you believe it or not.
Tony -- I will say it again.....
Alcohol is legal. If I choose to drink and drive and God forbid hurt someone in the process, should I not be held accountable????? Think further than your political bias. If the government told you to jump off bridge would you? Why do you give so called economic geniuses a pass when they are solely responsible for what they did? You must love to pick up the cost of their mistakes I do not.
Sick --- You made the understatement of the decade......
"I am not economist." Go back and read about what caused the financial crisis you missed a FEW paragraphs somewhere!
No one mentioned corporations just Wall Street trying to create their own little profit making scheme using "supply side theory".
Thanks for making my point Tony. According to you, the decline in the american yacht making business had nothing to do with tax increases but had everything to do with sending the jobs overseas. Which reinforces the talking point, tax increases do NOT kill jobs. Coporations kill jobs.
What kills jobs is regulations for the sake of regulations and a anti business administration, along with a President who believes social justice is the most important thing above all. This anti corporation stance is exactly why we have a weak economy and poor job growth. I will say it again. Tax increases do not create jobs. Taking more real money out of the economy and printing and orrowing won't save us it will destroy us.
What is wrong there Dont_carry_it_all?
I post an article, asking for thoughts... and suddenly you get all angry. Can't you handle it when people don't agree with you... you have to get mad and take shots at them?
So typical. So liberal.
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Hey RedDevPS...
REALLY? REALLY? Who the heck do you think creates the job? Wait... let me guess... the GOVERNMENT! Right?
Tony C: Tax increases do create jobs, if you increase taxes at the same time you eliminate tax loopholes. For example... see Reagan era tax increases.
Sick -- Not a liberal, just saying..... Not angry at all, just sick of propaganda in general. When you post something that lacks objective.....well....you get a leveling response.
Back at ya Sicko!! Considering my family has 3 generations of Civil Service employement behind them, I would say yes, the government DOES create jobs. Am I angry, no. Do I find your debasing claims that government doesn't create jobs a flat out lie? Yes!! In fact, here in my district, a new government job has just been created based upon the census. We are getting a new representative. That is a government job. Now do you want to stick by your claim that government doesn't create jobs?
Tony C - it all falls into place - your moniker stands for Tony C-orporate. No need to keep reiterating your love of corporations. We libbies understand your love of money and greed. As Romney said, corporations are people too, and you now doubt fall in step with his line of reasoning. I personally have very little use for corporations beyond them providing products such as home applicances. As to the rest, I rely on local as much as possible. I would rather bank at a credit union vs. a corporate bank. I would rather buy food from locals vs. the mass produced corporate crap-shoot salmonella laced food products.
I understand you are against regulations, but I prefer that the corporations be regulated so they don't pollute the air, water and soil. I would rather they be forced to pay workers reasonable wages. You see, unlike you, I belive corporations exist to serve me. I don't buy into the reasoning that I exist to serve corporations.
RedDevPS: don't try to argue the point. TeaPublicans only have one mantra, cut taxes. Anything and everything else is Job Killing.
A stimulous bill, even directly hiring 750,000 workers would be job killing.
tony is correct the yacht business went over seas directly because of taxation. And you can prove it by reducing taxation and watching it come back. Im just glad that didn't do the same thing to motor homes or that business would move to Canada, Wait a minute!
OK Red... you and your peeps call it a job... I call it charity! Why? becasue we have to spend more in tax dollars to pay that salary and the overhead that comes with the 'job' than the value of the job being performed.
Government 'jobs' are a black hole for tax dollars!
Unlike the private sector... government jobs COST all of us and do not generate revenue... SO... you and your three generations of gub'ment workers are welcome.
Yes, it's too bad government employees do not contribute to the economy by spending their wages on goods and services
herp derp
That's just a measure of how radical the Conservative Movement has become. They no longer acknowledge that government has value or is even necessary to the functioning of a modern society. It's a ridiculous position with no support whatsoever in a world where up is up or the sky is blue.
Then again, the movement is so impacted by the sickness of Ayn Rand that they're using her terminology of referring to the wealthy as the only "creators", which by extension makes the other 98-99% of us "leeches." No wonder their go-to manual is "rules for radicals."
Thanks for the 'charity' sick. It was money wisely spent and we have all paid our fair share of taxes to boot. And to be honest, I would rather have our 'gub'ment' workers maintaining our nuclear missle silos, our Air Force, our Navy over some corporation who would charge 3 times the amount at half the quality, all in the interest of their shareholders.
So while you bash and debase honest working people keeping you safe, you might well remember that if turned over to corporate interests, those nukes would be blowing up in your back yard all to save a buck. Now that would be a black hole, wouldn't it?
Oh yea, socialism works! Great model Greece is. Working people built this country, not people that believed they were "entitled". Social welfare states will never out perform good old freedom and people who believe they are responsible for taking care of their own well being along with being the best they can be and not being dependent on a governemnt. There will always be losers and winners. Your choice.
If only you understood the definition of socialism you'd realize how crazy that reads to everyone outside the wingnutosphere.
The spruce goose looked good on paper too. Definition.....does not take in account human behavior.....so you are a socialist. You deny Greece is a socialist nation with a failed economy, with more than half the country working for the government or being paid by the government? Wingnut comment just shows you can't discuss issues without resorting to name calling.
You're comparing Greece to the United States. If you actually KNEW or CARED you'd know the difference and see how ridiculous is your comment.
The tropical storm Irene will be a huge financial stimulus for the East Coast as billions of construcion dollars from the clean up will flow into the economy. This will put thousands of people back to work and Obama can take credit for the job growth. Is Obama happy for the damage caused by Irene? Hummmmm.
Why don't you ask him?
Idiot.
The Obama Diary/NYT
Consumer spending in the United States rebounded strongly in July to post the largest increase in five months on strong demand for motor vehicles, a government report showed on Monday, supporting views the economy was not falling back into recession.
The Commerce Department said consumer spending increased 0.8 percent, the largest gain since a matching increase in February, after slipping 0.1 percent in June.
… When adjusted for inflation, spending rose 0.5 percent last month, the largest gain since a matching increase in December 2009, after being flat in June.
The data suggested the economy started the third quarter with some strength after growth almost stalled in the first half of the year…..
_________________________________
"Let Detroit Go Bankrupt". Mitt Romney
Let's see---job numbers take a hit in the spring because the earthquake/tsunami interrupted the supply chain and the President is said to be blaming nature when he points this out. Now if there are jobs created by the hurricane recovery efforts, the President will be called "happy for the damage". How about this----acts of nature will interfere with the economy.
Was Obama really on vacation the last few days or was he secretly flying around in a C-130 seeding clouds that would eventually become hurricane Irene? Hannity says its possible.
Bighorn
That's probably why Eric Cantor is so desperate to block emergency aid to the areas affected by the hurricane unless he gets spending cuts somewhere else. God forbid that anything be done to get the economy moving before the election. Or at least Eric Cantor forbid.
Monday-morning quarterbacking is alive and well, especially as it relates to Irene. Saw a news leader yesterday on TV wondering: "Did Pres Obama over react to the potential danger of Hurricane Irene?" According to the latest info, 25 people lost their lives so far and terrible flooding is happening everywhere Irene touched. To ANYONE and EVERYONE who takes exception to Pres Obama's warnings about Irene; get a life because it could have been yours he was trying to save.
yankee, I guess unless NYC or DC or Boston is completely under water, everything is over-reaction.
Most people heeded the warnings, and those warnings
saved lives.
The media needs drama.
That was one huge storm crushing the east coast. Huge. Everyone did a great job. A responsible low key great job.
Sadly, we had our first death this morning from a live wire.
Of course, if the President had NOT reacted to the dangers posed by Hurricane Irene and even more people had died, he would have been blasted for not caring enough and going on vacation. A no-win position for him v. the right.
Do you think the folks who live in Vermont or the Catskills or the Berkshires think it was an overreaction?
I'm sorry -- the governors of the states -- both red and blue -- were calling for caution, preparedness, evacuations long before the empty suit opened his mouth. Do you really think what he said made a difference??? Do you think the last minute hangers-oners waited for the anointed to speak before doing anything???? LMAO.
Ben, well you will have to talk to the governors. They were eager to get help from the empty suit. Very eager. Whatever they needed and asked for from the federal government, was approved by the President, immediately.
Moron.
Gee, Ben...maybe you're right. Maybe he shouldn't have said anything...but I guess then you'd be bitching about him NOT saying something, right?
You guys are missing the point. The question was posed "did he over react?" That relates to before the hurricane hit landfall -- not approving after-the-fact assistance which is what he should do. It is the governors' responsibility to follow their state's emergency guidelines before and during the hurricane. Getting aid to the states is the federal government's role.
Wow... Pat must have a large object up his rectum! He cant answer anything with out a vitrolic slur following it.
If you think that any Republican will be happy to hear any good news about the economy, you may be out of your mind.
We voters have learned that anytime their is good news about the economy, Republicans would feel very bad. They would keep quite or try to look for negative aspects of it.
Any bad news about the economy make them feel happy. They would repeatedly talk about it and try to blow it out of proportion. They understand that good news about US economy is not good for them. They want things to look really bad so that some 'unthinking' voters may support them.
Currently, what is best for the country is bad for Republicans.
In addition, when someone gets hold of a dollar and it is not them, they feel even WORSE!
Its the Republican way: I, me, mine - I, me, mine...