Feisty....

At least they are going to propose a plan. I guess that is what it takes to get Obama off his butt and do something. I heard today that Obama's plan will only be a broad outline and will not have any specifics.

Oh well, did we really expect anything different. You know, the "leading from behind" thingy....

Just Saying...

At least they are going to propose a plan.

President Obama indicated he will make a major speech sometime in September.

TPF -- this is what happens when you don't read the ENTIRE article...

Job plans are coming out of the woodwork. Lots of plans, that will create a lot of jobs, at least a lot of jobs for the jobs planners.

And Obama is making a "major speech"! Wooooow. Will it be bigger than his Beer Summit speech? You know what they say about speeches, especially about jobs, speech #837 is the charm.

The Huntsman campaign is jumping ahead of the pack and unveiling a new jobs plan

You know what?

If it's nothing but tax cuts - thanks - but NO thanks!

We've been there (for 30 years) and DONE that!

It's all about the rich get richer and the rest of us continue to SUCK hind teat!

PS: Smiff - how's your exploding hemorrhoids honey?

EPIC FAIL!

Huntsman - You mean well.

But 'made in America' has been an underground imperative for awhile, now.

Feisty, Oh, Bachmann and Perry will jump in here too. We will have plans all over the place.But both of theirs will include "God'sWill"

Feisty Redhead Roselle, IL

Finally some specifics rather then the worn out Obama bashing...

Poor Huntsman, the only sane one thus; I see. He is a marked man I can see the target on his forehead. There is no way the nuts will allow him to have a voice.

When will bat sh!t crazy Bachmann unveil hers?

So do I. It will be a tremendous gaffe. Crazy eyes can't even read a teleprompter or find the right camera. She hasn't gotten anything right; apart from showing Marcus how eating is done.

*popcorn*

Yes.

*popcorn*

Yes

Here you go GF -- I cleaned off my voice mail & found your message! In all seriousness, I'm gonna call you and we'll get together for lunch!

My treat! ;o)

tea-party-fan is right about it being high time that conservatives get serious about jobs, but is wrong about it coming from the Tea Party who would prefer default. Huntsman is taking a risk by doing so--going against the GOP/TP Borg's plan for the economy and jobs to suck in hopes of victory in 2012. Progressives welcome conservatives who will reach across the aisle in a sincere effort to help the nation recover economically.

it being high time that conservatives get serious about jobs,

Really?

Did the repubs focus on Obamacare instead of jobs? I thought they fought it pretty seriously because it was a job killer it turned out to be? Ditto for FinRef, huh?

5,000 pages of new regulations and rules and costs and uncertainty good for business? And new ones being written every day.

Repubs do the QE2 devaluation of the dollar crap? What does that do to the cost of everything?

What about the regulation war on business, repubs responsible for that?

Obama has ramped the regulatory agencies up 16%.

Think Ford is big? McDonald's has a lot of employees. Boeing with all their divisions? Disney with all the parks, movies ...... OBAMA'S REGULATORS NOW OUT NUMBER THE EMPLOYEES OF ALL OF THOSE COMPANIES - COMBINED!

281,000 working for the regulatory agencies ...... cranking out a new or regulation every 2 hours and 20 minutes.

They got 4,200 in the pipeline - ALL WITHOUT CONGRESS.

How about those trade agreements negotiated under Bush? Repubs holding those up until the unions get compensated for nothing?

Repubs telling Boeing they can't make airplanes in S. Carolina?

Boehner demagogue business everyday, mock the job creators?

McConnell threaten higher taxes every time a teleprompter lights up somewhere?

Progressives welcome conservatives who will reach across the aisle in a sincere effort to help the nation recover economically.

Americans are against cap and trade, Congress is against cap and trade. Obama in effect says screw you guys - "there is more than 1 way to skin a cat" and does it through executive fiat and the EPA.

Obama ignores his expert "scientific" panel's recommendation to NOT shut down the Gulf - due to safety issues! Obama ignores a federal judge's order to remove the moratorium. Obama ignores the federal judges contempt order.

How do you "reach across the isle" with a rigid ideologue like this?

Ten rigs say "see ya" and head to Egypt, Congo, French Guiana, Nigeria and Brazil. Eight other rigs scheduled for the Gulf have been diverted elsewhere around the world.

They aren't coming back until Obama is gone - they have no confidence, no trust - they know what he is doing, what he is. (It involves A LOT MORE than just the Gulf.)

An analysis and study by the Quest Offshore Resources for the American Petrolem Institute and the National Ocean Industries Association have concluded that with a "balanced regulatory approach" by the government, employment supported by the Gulf and natural gas industry would exceed 430,000 jobs!

Obama has literally done more harm, has intentionally caused more damage, has wantoningly destroyed more lives - than the worst oil spill in American history.

Think about it - Bin Laden and Al Qaeda never dreamed of taking on the US military - never even dreamed of defeating us militarily. Nope, they wanted to cause economic damage.

Think they ever thought they could shut down the Gulf?

What were you saying about "reaching across the isle?"

Half our nation's electric generation is by coal. One fifth of it is being put offline by Obama. In eighteen months - soaring prices, job losses and rolling brown outs.

Seems the EPA was sued by an environmental group, the Environmental Defense Fund, lost the suit and now requires some western coal-fired power plants to install haze reducing equipment at a cost of $1.5 billion to settle the law suits by January. (Wierd that we get 5 or 7 years to change from incadescent light bulbs, but ...)

What is crazy about this?

The EPA gives the Environmental Defense Fund millions of US tax payer dollars in grants. The EPA has a "Citizen's Guide" which explains how to sue the EPA. The "Citizens Guide's" author works for the Environmental Law Institute which was has received $9.9 million in grants paid for by the US tax payer. Legal fees? Yep ..... the EPA pays legal fees under the Equal Access to Justice Act.

The tax payers are literally giving money to the EPA to give to groups to sue us so they have an excuse to shut down our energy industry so we can pay more for energy, lose jobs, and have rolling brown outs.

In a time of 9% (18% real) unemployment, people losing their homes, more people on food stamps than anytime in history, first credit down grade in history, worst recovery in history ..... is this not insane?

"Reach across the isle?"

Do you really think Obama is this stupid, this is an accident, this is bad luck, this is because of a few tea party guys that have been in office 8 months?

This is intentional - this is the product of a transformative, progressive, narcissistic ideologue who has no clue, has no capacity to question himself or his beliefs and no concern for any one or anything other than himself and his re-election.

Need more?

Yeah Bob I need more, that didn't do it for me.

Well I could mention that the case cited above noting the damage caused by the EPA's practice of giving money to environmental groups, telling environmental groups how to sue the EPA and paying their legal expenses is not unigue.

I could mention the Environmental Defense Fund has brought a dozen suits against the EPA, their are dozens of environmental groups that we are using tax payer money to support that have filed over 3,000 similar suits against the EPA - that this is just the tip of the iceberg......

I could mention Obama's EPA war on coal war is calculated to cost 1.4 million jobs - based just on what is on the table right now ......

....... But you don't care about any of that ......you just care about Obama and your beloved unions.

So, what do you think about Trumpka telling the Huff-Post that the union "climate is 'absolutely' the worst he has seen during the course of his 40-year career in organized labor.

What do you think about him whining about the Employee Free Choice Act Obama hasn't bothered with, the public health insurance option , Obama's renewal of the Bush tax cuts, the free-trade deals?

What about the 2012 Democratic National Convention being held in a right to work state. What about union PACs closing their federal PACs to concentrate on local elections?

He is even critical of Obama on jobs:

"But you don't have anyone actually talking about jobs. And when you bring it up to people at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, their almost universal response is we have a Congress that won't do it. So what do you do? You do what leader do, you lead."

I said above that Obama cares about no one except himself and cares about nothing except his re-election.

Sheez, Forrest ...... Obama didn't even invite your union buddies to work his birthday party in Chicago - unions were too expensive and difficult to work with!

When are you guys going to realize that Obama thinks of unions as nothing more than just another tool?

Actually it sounds like Trumka has figured it out ..... when will you?

Need more?

Sorry I didn't see any specifics, just another plan that well be announced. However, that is what they, the GOP/TEA, should be doing , spelling out their specifics, and don't copy Obama. But they can't because none of them have any ideas that will work. They all refuse to raise taxes on the wealth, because they create the jobs. The wealth won't create jobs, because they may loss some of their $$billions$$ and making it harder for them to manage their businesses and make more profits. They don't care about the poor or middleclass, and the TEA party members also agree with them, that is why they won't raise taxes on them.

I got news for you Bob I have been working all my life and not that they are not good people just like our president Obama, but the bussinesmen have all used me and my union buddies like a tool to make money for themselves. Thats what we do Bob we are labor unions and I am a whore with a toolbox I will shake my ass for a dollar. I am okay with that, I just try not to be cheap whore.

Finally some specifics rather then the worn out Obama bashing...

Wow...you liberals are hilarious. Been bashing a cowboy for 11 years now and you never "wore" of that. Wellll, noone ever accused the freeloaders of consistance....love it

Hey Box-O-Chocolates -

but the bussinesmen have all used me and my union buddies

Newflash - You can only get used by someone if you LET them use you. I'm a union construction worker too and I take care of myself quite well.

BTW - You're welcome. Your first Dr. Phil sesson is free.

Forrest,

The Union bosses are using you, too. Have you ever calculated what your'e getting for your union dues, and how much better off you'd be on your own?

IBEW Local 1105 Journeyman

Hourly pay $26.50. 40 hours a week x $26.50 x 52 weeks a year and 2080 hours a year = $55,120 a year.

$5.85 of the hourly wage goes to medical insurance – that’s $12,168 a year; $2.77 to pension = $5761 a year; $3.44 to union dues = $7155 a year; $14.44 to the worker = $30,035 a year.

If $5,761 and $7,155 a year went to the worker instead, and was invested by the worker at 5% interest, a worker beginning work at 25 would retire at 65 with $1,560,496. That little nest egg would generate $101,496 a year until the worker turns 95.

Instead, a retired union journeyman can expect $69,000 a year in a union pension.

$101,500 versus $69,000.

Tell me again, why unions are in the best interest of the workers?

The best thing abou tone upsmanship is it focuses attention of what the President wil say and priovide a backdrop pof contrasts to the prsident's sppech. It also shows on the Republcan side an adult in the room.

This is different than Michelle "I cant turn the economy in 3 months" without saying how Or "$2 gas" without saying how. It's time to move from little kid impossible boasting.-what Thomas Ricks once called "daydream believers"-to hard cold reality.

Candice -

Tell me about it.

In 2010 my union dues totaled over $2,200. Ten years ago they were less than eight hundred a year.

mmnord,

$2200? And are you happy with what the union is doing with your hard earned money?

Well Candace I question your numbers because in most union contracts with organizations as old as the IBEW the health coverage, and pension would be on top of the wage scale of 26 bucks an hour and the total wage and fringe package would be closer to 32 or 33 bucks an hour. Plus you have union dues listed as being more than 10% of their pay and I have never seen an IBEW contract that charged more than 3% for dues. But even if we go with your numbers I don't have to explain anything because you did a nice job. First can you tell me what the none union in the same area make in as much detail, I bet they make less. Plus these people if we go with your numbers make over 14 dollars an hour have and have excellent health insurance and you claim they will have a pension which equals more than twice the yearly income they make now. That is a hell of a pension! That's a fabulous deal compared to 11 bucks an hour in Texas and no health insurance, and no pension. Rick Perry can not do for Texans what local 1105 is doing for their members. As a matter of fact republicans are telling people they can not imagine how it will be possible for them to have health coverage, and a modest pension when they are old, everything they have paid in will be gone, Local 1105 members will have health coverage and a pension that is worth more than twice their present income, I would say that Local 1105 is doing one hell of a job for itself, they are kicking ass compared to Rick Perry and the house republicans. Anybody got a better deal for these people, speak right up, because Rick Perry and don't.

Candice,

NOOOOO, of course I'm not happy with the disgusting politics of my union. But as I tell my son, a third generation craftsman, "Always remember, our craft will be here with or without this union BUT our union wouldn't be here without the craftsman." Sometimes the unions forget that part.

Come on y'all, it's frigging Saturday.

New Jane's Addiction song is rocking.

And to all my union friends: "live Better, work union."

Of course they are all gone now - they chose to hire them illegal alien apprentices, cause they worked for $5.00 per hour.

Now they are the journeymen. Seems the union not so concerned with citizenship, at least back in the wild 1980's.

Ah, good times.

Forrest,

I got those numbers from an IBEW 1105 site (I don't have the link anymore). Finding actual numbers is a chore and I'm sure they change with the rungs on the wage ladder, but I was, and am, curious if Union dues and pension withholding actually benefits the workers. Maybe the workers do benefit. I don't know. I can't find a lot of data to crunch. And I wonder if the workers actually did the math, what they would find.

It just seems to me that if workers retained what they pay in dues, and invested their own pension withholding (at a guaranteed rate), they'd be better off financially in the end. In the case of public unions, their pensions wind up on the negotiating table all the time, making their financial security more uncertain.

Find me some numbers, I'll pour me a glass of wine, get out my calculator....and I'll be a happy girl.

Somehow you must have got the impression that I am upset about be used, I am not, I would be upset if they weren't using me to make a profit for themselves. I love it when they use me and my members to make a profit that is what we are there for. Here is what I find strange, when I go to a job as a workmen dressed in workclothes and working with my hands there are people who might say my scale of about 50 bucks an hour (total package) is to much, but I can walk out and walk right back in the door in my suit and when they hire me as a consultant I don't touch a tool and I charge 3x times my scale plus they pick up almost all my travel, lodging, and meal expenses, and they don't bat an eye. Is not Capitalism for all Americans, shouldn't workers try to maximize their personal profits. I would think republicans would praise unions and their members for their capitalism and for taking responsiblity for their individual health care cost and their old age instead of burdening society with those costs. How come when I walk in with my work clothes and my union button I am a greedy socialist, but when I walk in with my business card in a suit and charge them 3 times as much I am a smart capitalist. How can you believe that to have a good operation you have to pay well to hire the best consultants and managers, but you don't have to do the same to have the best workers. So that just applies to hedge fund managers and not to teachers or bricklayers. I am thinking about raising my consulting fees because honestly it is getting close to the point where some will question my expertise as a consultant simply because I am not charging them enough, and simultaneously complain that the man who actually performs the work is charging them to much. When I am a workmen a I don't always love some republican businessman, but honestly when I walk into the same shop as a consultant I love these guys. If it would not have taken me so many years to learn my business I would have started this racket a long time ago. Of course without working under my unions collective bargaining agreement for many years none of this would have been possible for me personally. Scoff if you want to but the honest truth is I love my local union, I know for a fact I would not have been able to provide my family with as good a living as I provided or myself with the opprotunities I have had. My Union Rocks!

Ah Spanky I don't know any union that takes illegal aliens as apprentices, lots and lots of paperwork and documentation needed before someone can be indentured to a local union in a federally accepted Apprenticeship program. Don't confuse what the non union employers erroneously refer to as an "apprenticeship". I also will also guarantee you my employers don't want any part of undocumented workers, I promise you they don't hire illegals for the 50 bucks an hour they pay, they don't ned to, they got young strong American men (and women) many have all sorts of college degrees lined up around the block if they mention they are hiring. Why would they need illegals. You got your union and non-union employers mixed up again.

No Forrest - this s personal experience from the mid 1980's. Believe it or not, I have union experience. Brief, but nonetheless. I did not live better. I preferred piece work, not hourly. Young and dumb, right?

Remember too that Ronny gave blanket amnesty in '86.

I am always surprised at the hiring of illegals, what with so many unemployed.

But then again, here in my home town we have a HUGE inflow of Iraqis. The new ones have only known war.

It's bad, and they word for $2.00 per hour, for, and you guessed it, the older Iraqi's. The ones that got here in the 80's and 90's.

Toilet Forrest. We are headed down down the drain.

Candice -

I'll help ya with the Jimmy Hoffa School of Pension Math.

My current wage ON THE CHECK is $34.61 per hour. All of my benefits are above and beyond that. Total wage package is $50.97. For instance, $9.80 PER HOUR goes into my pension with a 1.1% multiplyer. Translated, that means for every hour I work, I receive 9.8 cents per month in a pension payment. I need $98,000 in my account for each $1000 I want in a monthly payment.

And people wonder why Unions get a bad rap. With math like that Social Security is a rockin good program....lol

Forrest - I guess this is where I'm coming from... I'd be happy to pay a worker $50 an hour (if they're worth it, of course) if the $50 goes to the worker. I'm not happy paying $50 for a worker, when $45 goes to the worker, and $5 goes to the union. The worker is working for me and providing a skilled service that I need. The union, on the other hand, is not working for me -- in fact, I feel as if they are working against me. I would rather see the money go to the worker instead of the politics and the bosses. Cutting out the dues part, also reduces my cost.

You're right about the worker vs. consultant. Kind of crazy, isn't it?

You're happy that the union is making a profit on you? Why are you against corporations making a profit, then?

Looks like Obama is on top of the hurricane, ehh, rain storm heading up the coast.

Reports in North Carolina say a road was flooded, and several trees had a few broken branches. By the ocean, there were some waves.

And FEMA is writing checks faster than the federal government ever thought possible. That shows how efficent the government has become.

Spanky you are right you can't blame the unions for Reagens amenisty of 11 million illegals in the 80's,. I have honestly never seen illegals working in my business, and the many unions I have dealt with don't support it. It is hard to control in non skilled industries, but the skilled trade unions and the unions in places like car plants and the aerospace industries do not have a problem, you would be suprised what they want to know about you these days just to walk onto the property at a refinery with Homeland security and all.

mmnord,

Thanks. I've got my calculator and a bottle of Valpolicello I'll be uncorking tonight. I'll take a look at your numbers......if my head doesn't explode.....

FEMA - there simply is no better example of all the wrongs/inability of gov. to do anything right or effectively.

Excellent that it will again be highlighted. A plus is Napolitano's giant mug is all over the teevee.

Good choice O.

Anybody else love Little Jonny Altman's piece on Obama - Forget about how good he is, now it's "prove he sucks."

Oh my!

Forrest out here were are simply overrun with illegals. Coming soon to a state and town near you. Good news is unemployment is only 4.9% in Mexico.

Couple of things Candace if you read my post I said I love when corporations use me to make a profit that is how I get my share of it, I am not against profits for corporations I am all for it, but I am also for them paying their fair share of taxes and sharing the profits with the workers who produce those profits. I have always worked my tail off to do the best I could do to make sure the man I am working for can turn a profit, that is one of the main reasons I am hired as consultant by some of the same businessmen I used to labor for, and I have never been bashful about trying to negotiate a better share of that profit for union members. They can't give you what they don't have so you gotta go out there and work hard for the man, you got to turn a buck for him so he has profits to share, and capital to run his business. I would hope that anybody who reads my posts whether they agree with me or not would have to at least say my posts indicate I am not a slacker, and that I put an honest effort into it.

My union does not make a dime off of me, unions are non profits, all the dues money collected is for the sole purpose of paying the expenses of the staff, maintenance and payments of any buildings or property the union owns, these assets belong to all members of the union so they are held in trusts. The union officer's pay is determined by the membership and is written into the constitution and by-laws of the local union they get a weekly salary and often a car allowance if applicable, they do not make or share any profits. All the monies collected through dues is used solely for the purpose of paying the operating costs of the union it is illegal to do anything else with that money. Union dues are never used to contribute to political campaigns that has been illegal for as long as I can remember, members can contribute to political causes if they wish but those monies have nothing to do with union dues, that money is completely separate and it is strictly voluntary.

Your example of 50 dollars an hour with 45 for the worker and 5 for the union comes out to over 11% that is unrealistic and sounds more like a membership in Spanky's Yacht Club than union dues. My union dues are 2% of my gross, there is no set amount if I work a lot of overtime I make more money and I pay more dues if I am not working I make no money so I don't pay any dues, I think it is darn fair. If I gross $100,000 my dues would be $2,000 Union dues will never affect your cost because they are not a cost of doing business for the employers they come out of the workers personal net income. What do you get for your dues, in a nutshell you get professional representation to look out for your interests, you get things like a labor lawyers to bump heads with the companies lawyers when negotiating complicated things like health care, pensions and working agreements. I can't imagine what it would be like for a bunch working stiffs like me to each try to cut their own deal with GM and their lawyers. You also get representation on the job, Ha you might get a stupid old bastard like me who will stick his chin out for you and take a punch in the mouth before he stands by and ignores the kind of situation that can get you get vaporized like 11 men on a non union BP oil rig or you get buried alive like the 29 men in a non union Massey Energy Coal mine. You get the right and the means to stand up for yourself and not get fired for it.

In my union we got rid of the health insurance companies a long long time ago because those costs have been increasing at a ridiculous rate for many years, if all our incomes rose at the rate health insurance premiums have risen over the last thirty years, everybody would be in great shape. We take all the money that is paid by the employers for the health benefit and instead of buting insurance we put it into a trust fund and then all medical bills that have to be paid are paid directly by the fund. There is no insurance company we are self insured, by eliminating the huge profit the insurance companies rake right off the top of your premiums we can provide a better level of health coverage for our members with that money. It looks like insurance and works a lot like insurance if you are a member but it is not an insurance company it is our own health care trust fund. Of course it costs money to administer the fund and we have to employ people to do that, but it is mostly office staff (those ladies are terrific when you are trying to deal with 20 different bills for one procedure at a hospital) there is no million dollar bonuses being paid to insurance execs, and so we get a pretty good bang for our buck health care wise. Truthfully whenever I go to a doctors office and I get out my "insurance" card, they always say wow you have got great coverage.

My pension is an individual retirement account, and again this benefit is a percentage of my gross. 9% of my gross is deposited to my personal retirement account, if you work overtime you get more paid in if you don't work nothing gets paid in, it is completely vested from day one and does not depend on years of service or anything like that, what ever is in there is mine from day one, obviously being a pension fund there are a lot of government rules about getting at that money before you retire. That pension fund was the only chance a working guy like me would ever have to be able to amass close to a million dollars now, for my retirement while raising a family on a single income.

So yeah Candace I am truly thrilled with what I get for my 2 cents on the dollar in union dues. I do way better than the non-union guys in my area who work in my industry. It is the best money I ever spent, I wish all my investsments had a return like my union dues. I'm serious as a heart attack when I say my union rocks.

You what is great about being union men like us Spanky, you never forget where you came from, guys like us even if we hit it big and became mega wealthy we can still enjoy a nice dinner at "Outback".

Flying by

but want to comment that when I worked in management at a major car haul operation, we paid all of the Health, Welfare and Pension costs above and beyond the wages. Also, if these guys all worked for themselves at $50/hour they'd have to pay 15% Self employment taxes, rather than the 7.5% as employees. There are many other hidden costs to flying solo. For Union Workers one of the biggest is the healthcare. A consultant simply doesn't have the volume to get reasonable healthcare coverage, especially if they need family coverage. For most union workers, that would be a huge cut.

Plus, expecting 5% return in the recent decade or so is simply not happening. If you are close to retirement, you certainly shouldn't have any of your portfolio in anything risky enough to get you even that moderate of a yield. If you aren't,...it might be possible, but volatility right now should be factored. If you can swing it,...a small investment property would be a nice diversification until the market stabilizes.

Just my two cents. My dad was Teamster's for 35 years and he's been pretty well taken care of. My uncle worked for himself and wasn't so lucky. Of course, I have another Uncle who was a mason in Vegas and his pension went bankrupt, so I guess nothing's guaranteed - except death and taxes.

Hey bag of m&ms

If you are trying to help Rick Perry and the Republicans you aren't, you are killing them both, because you make a great case as to why when a gut like you votes for republicans he is voting against his own best interests.

You have a wage and fringe package of $51.00 an hour which is damn near 5X better than the median income in Rick Perry's non union Texas. You make 35 bucks an hour on the check, and another 16 dollars in benefits on top of that and for every hour you work you basically get 10 cents a month for a pension. Now I am all for you getting even a better deal if possible but compared to what Rick Perry has in mind you are doing pretty good. If you work a forty hour week then you get 4 bucks towards your monthly pension, that would be 200 dollars for the year, if you work there ten years you will get 2000 a month, after 20 years you would get 4000 a month, and after 30 years 6000 dollars a month. Well if they cancel SS you will still have $36,000 a year income because you have that union contract, and if they cancel medicare you will still have your insurance, because of your union contract, plus since you make 35 bucks an hour and don't have to pay for your health care out of that you have a chance to put a little something extra away if you wish, unlike someone who makes 11 bucks an hour with no health care or pension benefits. Now what I want to ask you is: could you go out today and find a non union job doing what you do and get paid 51 dollars an hour to do that job. Because they would like to do away with your union and it's contracts and bring you in line with Texas and most of the South. Even though you have been paid well for many years you have not put your employer out of business, but your health care and comfortable retirement is not their concern, higher profits are their concern and your union contract interferes with that. The only people really looking out for your personal profit margin is you and your Local Union. So I am really interested if you think you could negotiate the package you have on your own, just you, face to face with a non union employer. If the answer is yes then you don't really need a union and your dues are wasted, if the answer is no I would not be singing any praises of any republicans, and especially not Rick Perry. Go out and find yourself a 52 dollar an hour non union job before you try to convince me how unhappy you are with the organization that negotiated your 51 dollar an hour package for you. You can poke fun at me and say I am a lazy liberal union democrat, a freeloader, and imply that I just want to suck off the government or somebody's teat, well that is not me, I work hard to help my employers make a good profit, and I work hard to see union members take home a fair slice of that profit. I don't bite either of the hands that feed me. One last thing don't forget House Republicans and Rick Perry and the rest of the republican primary field just don't see any way possible to provide Americans with health insurance or a modest SS benefit in the future, your union figured that out for you a long time ago, evidently unions are able to do what they can't, evidently your union is doing the impossible, that is why I gotta tell you Unions Rock.

Forrest and Clara, thank you for detailing your work experience. Candace as a business owner, I find your post not relevant unless you hire union workers.

Forrest, your explanation of what it means to b a union workers vs a consultant is enlighting. Most consultants or contract workers get a 1099. They have to figure out to set aside taxes, insurance etc before they start spending their money. I know they can write off a lot of expenses as business. But many get in trouble when it is tax time and don't have the money to pay .

i agree that the benifit of unions is the collective bargianing rights. Also job stafety for workers. Many forget that unions respresent nurses, airline pilots, writers,beside building and trades. Their work has value for any business.

All my son wants as a nurse is to give the best care to his patients and be compenstated for his skill. Their voice needs to be heard at the table with management to make the best outcome for the hospital and the quality of care that the patients receive.

Forrest, Thank you for providing your insight on this topic. I want to review all you've shared and give it some thought. Like I said, I don't know if workers benefit. I'm eager to figure it out. I'm afraid union workers are being taken advantage of - under the guise of being protected. It doesn't seem so in your case, however.

Clara, Thank you, too, for your input. I come from a union family, too - mostly cement finishers. The unions did not benefit my family --- (Except possibly my grandmother as she would steal from the union funds......) Maybe it's just the ones around here (Illinois - Chicago). I know how corrupt they are or can be. The Cement Masons union certainly didn't leave my family in good shape. My brother in law (Steel Worker) was left in a pretty bad situation during sporadic layoffs. And my best friend had to hang around the union hall for a few months- with no help - and he ultimately lost his house, among other things and wound up moving out of state. The Union "officers" ("bosses" - truly thugs around here) --- well, Chicago has a reputation, and sadly, much of it is true. So, a lot of times, we think - Unions? What's the point?

Northstar, I'm not a business owner in the sense you think. (I have a business but it's under the umbrella of a larger firm --- kind of weird). I was speaking hypothetically.

I obviously, based on personal experience, don't trust the unions. In Chicago, they are prohibitive. I'm just trying to figure it all out and appreciate your input. If it's okay, I may come back to you, Forrest, to pursue the topic further.

Thanks again, all. I truly appreciate your thoughts.

Yes Northstar, Clara is exactly right about the cost of insurance if I was to try and purchase it for just me and the wife, to get the kind of coverage I get through my Union it would cost a bundle, well it costs a bundle no matter what but as an individual and with the age and pre-existing conditions and all (I am Libtarded) the cost is astounding. That is exactly why I work a good portion of the year in the field as a union employee, so I can maintain my health coverage, even if I could fill the entire year with consulting, and training sessions, I wouldn't. I always have to juggle a schedule and block out several months each year so I can work enough hours under the collective bargaining agreement to pay for my union health coverage otherwise I would be basically be working for a health insurance company. I sometimes have to turn down consulting work because of that, but when I say I sometimes have worked for a company as workman and then one day walk into the same place as a consultant I meant it literally. To tell you the truth I think the switching back and forth makes me better at both. Engineering does not always have a good idea of what it takes to physically implement their plans, and workmen and customers in the field don't always have an understanding of the engineering that needs to be done to fulfill their needs and desires. I get to continually learn and work from both sides.

Candace I have never seen the kind of corruption you describe in Chicago in any of my dealings with the union organizations I have dealt with and certainly nothing like that has happened in the entire history of my personal union local. There is corruption of every sort in everything that involves groups of people, there are even crooked cops, but that certainly does not mean they all are, it would be unfair to judge all by a corrupt few. Unions are groups of people, the officers are elected by the rank and file membership, if a union is corrupt there would have to be a lot of people involved it is not like one or two guys can just take over a local union and set them selves up as "bosses", and the membership would have to continually re-elect them to those positions. As for as lay offs, lots of union members are hurting like everybody else, the union can't create jobs for members and just as states have exhausted their unemployment funds, many local unions have exhausted their charitable funds, which are voluntarily donated by members, because you can't give dues money away. It is really rough out there for so many people that's why I am all excited about the jobs bill. I assure you I have never been taken advantage of by my union, nor would I stand quietly if thought anybody else was, too many good men over many years paid with blood, sweat, and tears for what we have to let that happen.

Unions are not the problem in and of them selves. Private unions are not matter at all. Public unions and the politicians that pander to them are the issue.

A union negotiating with a private company can get what it gets. The union can take all it wants, but at the end of the day it, and management are constrained by the profitability of the company. The private union that gets too greedy and gets too much wrecks the company, which goes BK.

COnversely the public unions and public management has no such constraints. GIve too much? No problem, you can always raise taxes. THat's the model. It has wrecked San Diego, and just about every other municipality and a lot of states.

Here, despite the fact the city takes in way more in revenue now than say 5 or 10 and especially 20 years ago, nearly all city services are shut down or drastically cut back. Parks, pools, pot hole, police, fire.

All that money is there, but instead of going to services it is going now to wages and pensions. Worse yet - these entities are effectively insolvent, yet unlike a private company that would go BK where the contracts can be re-written, the gov. keeps chugging along.

Good news is - that model is now dead. It's cutting time. San Diego is in knots about city wages and pensions. It's ugly, but's it is the only way it can get better.

Spanky, thanks for the update on San Diego . So far here in MN it is not that desperate. My city gets its income from property taxes, state money to cities throughout the state, and levy of fees and a 1/2percent of the sales taxes for purchases and services in the city.

St. Paul is the capitol of the state. I live in the bluest of neighborhood , a city that has a huge tax exempt base: the state capital and offices, five colleges, three law schools, numerous private schools, three hospitals, and a houses of worship on almost every corner. The public unions have been part of the solution in their most recent contracts. City hall has shrunk its payroll and our services have been cut back or consolidated, like the rec centers, library hours and the perennial snow plow schedule!!

Our expereinces are both real and do point to the local issues elected officals must deal with now and in the coming years. Our city government provides the services we want with a work force that makes a good wage and can afford to live in the city that they work in.

LOL... this is gonna be awesome!

The GOPTards are going to release "dueling plans" while the Obama administration takes notes, separates the few good ideas the GOPTards come out with, roll them into his already framed plan, then release a monstrously immense plan that NO ONE will be able to talk down, because the GOPTard ideas are included. And when John Boner and Mitch McDumbell try to block it, the rest of America will crucify the GOP for blocking the jobs they're desperate for. Genius!

LOL..... Sorry, GOPTards, but these idiots are going to take all your bullets, and leave you with empty plastic guns. HAHAHAHA......

So Alan, are you saying that Obama will use some of the GOP's ideas and call them his? I bet you would think people, well most people believe that Obama can come up with something himself?

Paul-Florida,

Should I put in a request to the vine admins for a crayon font? My comment wasn't at all confusing.

Obama has already adopted some of their ideas, which John Bonehead has been sitting on in the House for months. Lets review:

Trade agreements
Patent reform
Immigration reform
Streamlining regulatory measures

Hmm.... where have I seen those things before..... oh yeah, here:

http://www.gop.gov/resources/library/documents/jobs/theplan.pdf

But the devil is in the details as they say. And the details speak volumes about the republican agenda. The most prominent of which is the "repatriation" of corporate profits sitting in offshore tax havens. Do we really need to go down that road again? We gave them exactly that in 2004, and 92% of those profits were given to CEOs and shareholders, and NONE was used to create jobs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/20/business/20tax.html?_r=1

So no, no and HELL NO!

If they want access to those profits, it should ONLY be under the condition of mandated investment in US infrastructure, or for NEW and PERMANENT manufacturing investment.

Otherwise, let them go enjoy those profits in China, or whatever third world nation they abused to stockpile them in.

Alan,

"We gave them exactly that in 2004, and 92% of those profits were given to CEOs and shareholders, and NONE was used to create jobs:"

The unemployment rate in 2004 was 5.5%, 2005 5.1% 06-07 4.6% and we know what happened after that. Investment in US infrastructure suppose to be a local, state, federal issue, not a corporation, right? I know I pay a hell of a lot of taxes for this to happen, where did my money go?

Anyways, I'm catching a flight to Seattle, I'll get back with you tomorrow.

Umm.... who cares?

Its a good question, sure. But that's certainly not an excuse to repeat a mistake we already made once.

Where was he a year ago?

Why - wasn't he in China at the request of our President? lol

Where was anyone in the GOP/TP a year ago? The Republicans have offered only a small, 10-page jobs proposal with a large font and lots of graphics. The president will include these meager ideas in his proposal--hopefully bigger and better--along with additional plans. The important thing is to make the Grand Obstructionist Party say 'NO" in front of the nation--including to some of their own ideas.

The liberals are all on the republicans for wanting to get rid of Obama... The assumption is that the pubs are doing their level best to stop Obama in his tracks by taking all his good ideas and shutting them down. Personally I haven't really seen a good idea for the economy come out of the White House but that aside, democrats accuse the republicans of trying to stop the president. Actually, they are, but not for the same reasons the liberals claim.

Now the liberals are trying to shut the republicans down... I have never agreed that liberals are stupid because that isn't the case... what I've said in the past is that liberals aren't honest. Not that they mean to lie, but they more or less twist things to suit their agenda... They deny that they aren't of the same accord when it comes to shutting down republicans... but when I see lines like this:

The important thing is to make the Grand Obstructionist Party say 'NO" in front of the nation--including to some of their own ideas.

It tells me that the liberals do want to shut down the republicans in just a nasty manner as the republicans want Obama gone. Liberals are hoping the republicans will make fools out of themselves with what Obama has to say about his jobs plan.

First of all, does Obama have a job plan? Second, what will be in it? Third, how will he implement it? Before the liberals can hope the republicans make a bad choice, there has to be something to choose from. The only question I have... if the upcoming plan from Obama is so good.... how come it took him 3 years to present it?

BrIan, I think the GOP do have a decision to make. They can continue to say NO to any new source of revenue. But if this source of revenue will be used for a job plan, then they have to explain their no to jobs.

We really don't know what will be in any of these proposals until it is leaked out right before the speeches. This is true for Obama and the candidates. everything is speculation unitl then. but I know it is fun to try to read the tea leaves. No pun intended :)

I have been thinking about that too. Just what kind of jobs plan could the republicans possibly come up with that doesn't raise taxes or revenue of any kind? With Ryan's plan they already tried to throw social security and medicare under the bus.

With Cantors we have to make cuts elsewhere to pay for hurricane damage, so a jobs bill would have to include cuts also to pay for it.

It will be interesting to see what they come up with. On the other hand it could just be crap like $2.00 gas. If Bachmann knows how she needs to tell us now, I could save a lot of money between now and next year. Put her in front of a windmill as she is nothing but a bag of wind.

On Maddow one night I did see a bunch of good job ideals from Bachmann they were stimulus type projects only problem they all took money. The republicans only have money for the rich not the people or America.

Pondering the tea leaves.

Perry has a proven record of job creation.

Huntsman is offering his, whether or not anyone is listening. Judging by his performance, I suspect this is a trial balloon for Obama. After all, we've had liberal columnists out there soliciting suggestions from the public, so, I'm thinking, Obama is pretty desperate.

Romney is coming out with his own plan.

What's Obama got?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/obama-offers-2012-election-supporters-change-they-can-believe-in--next-term/2011/08/25/gIQAJz9AhJ_story.html?hpid=z2

So, WTF is, finally, out. Ditto hope for change. The new bumper sticker just says "2012". That's it.

Do I need to tell you how lame that is?

Ah, well. My hatches are battened. My parents got here by ferry, and the kids, who live on the water, are also here with the princess. We've got plenty of food, water, flashlights and batteries, but, still, I say

Go Way Irene! Blow out to sea.

Godspeed, everyone in the storm path.

I hope republicans like Romney's jobs plan more then they like his healthcare plan!

Perry has a proven record of job creation? You still haven't look up just where and how those jobs came into being. This year when the stimulus help that saved jobs that Perry hated runs out, Texas will be bleeding jobs. One will be school jobs. His real record will be for all to see before the elections next year unless he gets another stimulus from the government and continue to hide his real ineptitude in governing.

You don't seem to mention that most of the jobs he created were all low paying, no retirement, no health care jobs. Are all Texans to work until they die as Perry also wants to get rid of social security? If you are barely surviving just how are you going to save for retirement?

Is the great republican plan to put all the old on an iceberg and push them out to sea? Or is Norquist going to put them in the bathtub under America as he drowns her?

Do you get to go with the rapture with Perry or do you get 72 virgins? Same story just a different religion's version. Good things that will happen to you if you are true to your faith.

You got that right, most good old red blooded Christian Americans would never strap dynamite to themselves and blow themselves up for 72 virgins. If you wanted young men in America to do that you have to promise them 72 naughty coeds gone wild, or at the very least 71 virgins and one good slut. 72 virgins does not sound very fun.

NoJoe,

Hunker down and stay safe.

Good luck Nojo.

Come on Forrest who does not love some sweet and innocent naked co-eds?

But 71 might be about 68 too many.

Hey - Americans First -you read any actual IRC code today? That was the longest post I have ever written yesterday, and you blew it off.

My feelings are hurt. Now that may be the Sailor Jerry talking, but still. I plan on talking taxes and raising taxes on those greedy rich bastards next week so get ready.

Raise our hand if you pay over $250k per year in taxes. F'ing government waste.

Bad Jerry.

[Hey...you read any actual IRC code today?]

You disappoint me Spanky...no BWAAK?

...always striving for mediocrity...

Can someone lend me a hand here and decipher WTF mmnord1969 is attempting to articulate? lmfao!

They certainly are the poster child for stuck ON STUPID!

"Can someone lend me a hand here and decipher WTF mmnord1969 is attempting to articulate? lmfao! They certainly are the poster child for stuck ON STUPID!"

No, Feisty...let it go....don't try to understand what stupid people say!

They can never connect the dots. . .

No, Feisty...let it go....don't try to understand what stupid people say!

You're SO right chilled - thanks for the reminder! *hugs*

A confused lib?...like that's hard to spot...lol

mmnord1969

they're a shoe-in if unemployment remains this high next year. The libs know this and are just in denial. It's all good.

mmnord,

And that is the very reason they are going down. Even Republicans are criticizing them as well as becoming very angry at them wreaking this economy for greedy political gain at the expense of Americans suffering. Republicans are going to be voted off the island. We keep our chief.

You obviously don't now your presidential history; troll.

FDR who won re-election TWICE with unemployment in double digits) but by looking at each case where a sitting president went up for re-election with unemployment at or above 7.2%.

Gawk it history.

http://s77.photobucket.com/albums/j44/DisNoir36/?action=view¤t=5791624507_4b2b2eae23.jpg

Obama 2012

Eat your peas.

Ignore feisty folks.... she's exceeded her capicity for mojitos and has entered 'lampshade on head' territory! Best to catch her first thing in the morning if you expect a semblance of reality.

Obama is on his last legs, the only question is who will turn it around? Liberal sniping will prove to be a waste of time!

Ignore feisty folks.... she's exceeded her capicity for mojitos and has entered 'lampshade on head' territory

Seriously? That's the best you can come up with douche bag?

Nice to know - I get under your thin skin! lmfao!

Sadly for you BillT -- the feisty redhead fan club is chock full of wannabees - you will remain on the waiting list until YOU are feisty worthy!

I KNOW that SUCKS but then again SO do YOU!

Can someone lend me a hand here and decipher WTF mmnord1969 is attempting to articulate?

I'll do my best Feisty:

It appears mmmnnnnmmnm (or whoever, along with bill T & other wingnuts) is attempting to exhort the RNC spin and daily talking point in their continual effort at American President bashing....

I think the handbook requires that they spew this garbage a minimum of four times daily.

In addition to the usual RNC rhetoric, it also appears that they are praying for more problems to befall the United States and thus reflect poorly upon the President, obviously counting upon "the power of positive thinking" to work to their advantage 11/12 (because they know they don't have any prayer with the crop of candidates they have.)

This is my best interpretation Feisty; unfortunately accuracy can not be gauranteed due to the sorce of the ramblings which prevents ANY sense to be gleaned from it. Still, hope it has been helpful.

It is terrific that Feisty can just flat out go at people - "douche bag."

Of course it just highlights her inability to argue the merits.

Ah, the libbie mind, a thing of wonder. :)

As stupid - you are better than her. You are getting better as well, please do not take a step backward. The feistys, Bev. amy Jodys are not the ones you want to emulate.

Deep though, not their strong suit. Look at poor Americans First. She flat out quit yesterday wen presented with the facts. No good.

[Look at poor Americans First. She flat out quit yesterday wen presented with the facts. No good.]

...liar liar shorts on fire...you presented AF with nothing of the sort...you just get your rocks off denigrating women and disabled veterans, although you seem to have given up harassing DNV-R...possibly due to it's unpopularity? But you just keep reaching for the stars, bruh...

...can't stand being unpopular, can you Spanks...

Forrest, I think you are reading this right. All of a sudden they too want to talk about jobs instead of $2.00 gas, states rights, Obama's fault that...

September will also see congress back in DC. and the super committee up and running. Just maybe they won't be running around in circles:cuts, no taxes, cuts no taxes...

Well the republican house has two choices, they can help pass a decent jobs bill, which is politically good for Obama (and great for the nation), or they can block a decent jobs bill which be even politically better for Obama (but bad for the nation). If they don't pass a jobs bill, politically they will take full ownership of the unemployment situation, and they will pay a heavy price. They are in the majority and are now responsible, all eyes are on them, and truthfully I think they will not be able to help themselves, enough of them have this no compromise attitude that they will screw this up and republicans will have given Obama and democrats in general a get out of jail free card on the unemployment numbers. Remember why so many democrats were swept out, it was because of jobs. They are going to have a tough time beating Obama with any of the current republican candidates as it is, if they screw the jobs bill up Obama will be a lock and democrats will take back a lot of seats in the congress. Where are the jobs Boehner? It's all about jobs you saw what happened to democrats, do think the electorate will give the republicans a free pass on the same issue, I don't. Politically Obama can only win on this one, the republican house can share in that win or they will totally own the failure.

I noticed a little trick up their sleeve. About the oil sands from Canada and the pipeline. Exxon has been advertising a lot on the Internet to say how it will create hundreds of thousands of jobs that America needs by these most reasonable sounding spokes persons. They go on to assure us that safety is their #1 priority and nothing bad can happen.

If my understanding is correct, that this pipeline is very bad and dangerous for our environment, and if President Obama vetoes the project they will hit him with not wanting to create jobs. They will try to bury the republican obstruction to jobs under that controversy.

American first, Just read a article in morning paper about the pipeline controversy. It is by Renee Schoof, McClatchy Newspaper

The Keystone XL pipeline would extend from the oil sand area of Alberta Canada,run through Montana,S.D., Nebraska, Oklahoma and Texas. Texas has over half the the U.S. refinery capacity,have been experiencing declining supplies from Mexico and Venezuela. So this pipeline would help Canada getting their oil to market and help refineries with a new supply of oil.

The problem is that this Canadian sand crude oil emits greenhouse gas emissions 17% higher than gasoline from the average mix of crude oil consumed in the U.S. This is according to the Dept of Energy report. Meanwhile the Dept of State said in its latest impact statement that it would not have much impact on climate change or threaten ground water in the Great Plains.

The Obama administration will make it final decision about if this pipeline is in the national interest after a series of upcoming public hearings.

Environmental groups are against building this pipeline through the U.S. There has been a leak in a different pipeline into a river in Montana. Canada also has been blocked in its proposal to build a pipeline from Alberta to a Pacific Ocean port.

No matter what the outcome of these pipeline controversies, Canada will expand strip mining and drilling for this very thick oil extracted from the sands of Alberta.It is called fracking.

So the pressure is on the Obama administration and Congress with the oil and environment groups on opposing sides. Plus what is the actual new jobs this pipeline and increase in supply to the refineries will create? And at what cost? i am sure too this whole issue will come up in any new jobs bill.

Haliburton (and thus Cheney I presume) has already committed vast financial resources in this regard, to include the shale reserves in the BlackHills area; they are currently hiring a few thousand additional employees for North Dakota, so it appears that our fragile environment is again on the short end of the stick, and that National natural resources is going to be given to Cheney, Haliburton and company so that the rich will again get richer....

ridiculous in my opinion! REGULATION DESPERATELY NEEDED!!!!!

It won't work, they overplayed "the we are saving the country from Obama" hand with the debt ceiling fiasco, people who pay a little attention see that now. Obviously the vast majority of the electorate does not sweat any details of any kind good or bad, true or fabricated, when Jay leno interviews people in the street every other person doesn't even know who the vice president is. So if a job bill does not pass people will just be pissed at Republicans, right, wrong, or indifferent they will blame Congress, hell look at the polls, they already do. The president has a media empire hammering him 24/7/365 since the day he was elected with bad advertising, and if you want to say he has another media outlet cheer-leading for him fair enough, but he still polls 3 times better than Congress. People understand there is a debt problem, even democrats and liberals understand that, and the tea party gained traction on that important issue. But I think that most Americans felt we would scale back, and end the wars, eliminate fraud and waste, ect, ect. They got people all excited about something that is important but the only type of solutions they offered was to virtually eliminate SS and medicare, break collective bargaining agreements so hard working guys paving streets are paid less, cutting unemployment benefits ect, ect. All the while ferociously protecting things like tax cuts for the wealthy, and subsidies for oil companies. The American people don't see their approach as "fair and balanced" as some might say. When you tell the American people you do not have any money for medicare so their old sick mother in law is going to have to move in with them, but you still have billions of dollars for insanely profitable oil companies you have a political problem. When you tell average Joe his is taking a big pay cut so a hedge fund manager can keep getting his sweet deal you have a political problem. When you tell 40-55 year olds you are cancelling a program they have paid into for years, but you make $175,000 a year and have the best tax payer provided health care, pension and vacation benefits possible you have a political problem. If Republicans would have been a little more moderate and floated a jobs bill right after the last election Obama may well have been one and done, but that shipped has sailed for republicans. Now they have to improve his chances of winning by passing a jobs bill, or insure that he wins by not passing one.

If Republicans would have been a little more moderate

AND a little less Greedy....

Too bad the "little truth" or trick up the sleeve is that they cannot create anything.

The government is not the answer, it is the problem.

I have to say - at least Obama is starting to get it. he knows he can't create jobs.

Oh come on Spanky lots of people list the US government as their employer, what a silly thing for a lawyer to say. Big business loves government contracts, Politicians fight like hell to get them for their state because it always means lots of good jobs for their constituents. Hell you know for a fact all those pesky regulations and tax laws you complain about provide lots and lots of $500 an hour jobs for lawyers just like you.

It takes money from some and gives to another. That's not creation Forrest.

Or perhaps the gov should just hire all the unemployed? Private industry creates. Remember the mighty CCCP?

But hey you don't have to listen to this silly lawyer. Listen to Obama and the dems in power. Their tunes have all changed on this subject.

Just listen.

Spanky, "Private industry creates." I agree, but many do not do this in a vacuum. What is being created in San Diego? Here in St. Paul we are in the midst of building a light rail between St.Paul and Minneapolis. I know we are a little late on this whole light rail thing!! It is a three year project. Money from the feds, and state and metro council. I'm paying my fair share. Lots of people put to work. Local businesses along the line are not doing so good in the meantime. But the developers with new housing and new small business are ready to create new jobs along the line once it is built. It will help businesses in both down towns,cheap transportation for workers, tourists and ordinary folks out for a night on the town.

Spanky do you take money from some people to pay others, then I don't know of any employer that has created a job they all just seem take money from some people and then turn around and give to other people. Every employer just takes money from some people and gives it to others. It's commerce not job creation. Hurricane Irene will be a job creator!, but where will the money come from? I am thinking we will have to take it from some and give it others, it has never worked any other way it is just commerce, and the only difference is that you call it a fee when you take the money instead of a tax. Nobody can create a job, but they can engage in commerce, and the result will be that people will have to employed so they can collect the money from some and pay it to others, so they can give to others who will have to give some away and so on. The private sector, or the government neither can create jobs, they can only engage in commerce and jobs are a side effect.

Shoot sorry I don't know what I did but I mean't to add: You did not start your law practice to create jobs for your staff, you wanted to engage in commerce, the staff you employ is a wonderful side effect of you taking money from some and then giving some to them, the money always comes from someone else. Call it a fee that you take from them, call it a tax, call it the sale price, what is the difference it all works the same, you take from somebody to pay another, nobody creates jobs they engage in commerce, jobs are a side effect, this country needs to engage in some commerce. We should call it a commerce bill, the government can be the customer and generate a little commerce and jobs will be a side effect of that.

Forrest, I love your idea...A Commerce Bill. If Obama calls it that, it will really confuse Congress and the Republican candidates. But your explanation makes sense to me.

Oh boy I never thought about till you just mentioned it but I totally agree, call it the US Commerce Bill and how you could not vote for that, you could be a political Spin Doctor Northstar. Try this one on for size, The US Corporate Commerce Restoration Bill. The spin both sides put out is comical at times but the big problem is you can easily fool some of the electorate, you can easily fool some of the politicians, but it is not so easy to fool the Lobbyists.

Forrest, You better copyright that name quickly before some super PAC takes that title.

The US Corporate Commerce Restoration Bill or in DC speak: USCCR bill.

But then again some Glenn Beck type might read something into the letters; too close to the USSR!

This is the same reason that tax cuts for the job creators has never worked, it never trickles down or translates into jobs, because tax cuts for corporations do not create customers for those corporations. They just don't hire people for no reason, they need some commerce, they need customers to walk in the door or call and place some orders. It's commerce that creates both the profits and the jobs as a side effect. Cutting taxes for corporations does not make their phones ring so they will not be hiring, not until somebody places an order, so you better get on the phone Congress. If you need Mrs. Grump to show you how to spend some money (even if you have to put it on a credit card) on some goods and services just let me know!

No it depends on why people think their life sucks, if you think your life sucks because corporations and extremely wealthy people pay too much in taxes, or if you think your life sucks because they have not yet canceled your SS or medicare you payed into all your life, then you would probably vote republican. But if you don't think those things are the rock in your shoe then you probably won't. With all due respect I think he has a good chance, because republicans overplayed their scorched earth policy by a few notches. The debt ceiling fiasco coming right behind the Ryan plan with no accomplishments in between has congress polling at 12%.

Congressional approval ratings mean nothing. The same poll shows that the people that give congress a 12% approval are the same people that think their congressman rocks and should be re-elected. Politics is a local game.

Congressional approval ratings mean nothing.

Please - by all means continue to stick your fingers in you ears while chanting LALALALA!

While YOU'RE at it tighten that chin strap on your tin foil hat... pretty please?

actually mmmnerd69er

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44277434/ns/politics-capitol_hill/

for the first time,...folks say their own rep has to go,...

Feisty, I feel compelled to listen to the clock today:

tick tock tick tock (any guess as to this retread?) Nice fresh "Born On Date" and everything.

actually mmmnerd69er

for the first time,...folks say their own rep has to go,...

Clara, Clara, Clara,

Firstly, thank you very much for the link to a story I had already digested. Very informative. However, I would encourage a quick trip to the front doorstep so as to grab the Hooked-On-Phonics that must have arrived by now and reread above mentioned link. Slow down and sound the words out if you must. Get a lil helper. Something. But PLEASE read all of it.

Can we at least agree that it will be a VERY tough road to hoe for Mr. Obama if the economy is in its current condition and unemployment remains this high. Congressional approval ratings were in the low 20's in 2008 and the Liberals smoked the Republicans. One has nothing to do with the other.

Politics is a local game.

Just ask Al Gore....lol (Otherwise the Left Coast would be picking our Presidents) National popular vote majority could not overcome LOCAL electoral votes.

Feisty, I feel compelled to listen to the clock today:

Let me guess - the cuckoo clock?

Right? ;o)

tick tock is right GF...

You chicks are a funny bunch

Hooked on phonics.

Memories.

I spent a lot of time with my kids with that. Those were the worst of times, but now the best of times.

Maybe Clara can send her copy to Rev. Al. He really could use it, what with the tvee show and all.

Too funny Spanky,

I forgot all about him last week. Man, is he ever a riot to watch. That MSNBC sure is a smart bunch.

mumbledork69

Are you completely DAFT? My comprehension of the material was spot on,...and FURTHER it moves Independents more toward siding with Democrats on tax increases, as well as being MORE likely to oust an incumbent.

What part of that do you not get? All of it? You must be a buddy of nojo's because only that mindset could so completely misinterpret such CLEAR data.

I'm sure we can round up someone with a bike helmet on to lend ya a hand...lol

Why thank you! That's mighty generous!

In the meantime, I'll take a bike helmet over a tin foil hat any day and twice on a Sunday! ;o)

Much better protection from those radio frequencies that broadcast from your fillings!

PS: Crusty? Around these parts I'm known as 'Nasty' lmfao!

PS: Crusty? Around these parts I'm known as 'Nasty' lmfao!

My bad...I apologize. Word association. Redhead. Liberal = Clown. Crusty The Clown. My apologies. Nice to meet you Nasty, I'm Mike

Not crusty, not nasty, just plain ignorant.

But super fun and entertaining.

Rock on old gal.

[Not crusty, not nasty, just plain ignorant. But super fun and entertaining. Rock on old gal.]

Lookie at you, getting all philosophical and all...and on a Saturday, no less!

Ahhh, mediocrity...it suits you fine Spanky.

Do you even have a job?

Well buddy - that's for ME to KNOW and you to find out! lmfao!

That is how it works!

Those who are getting a government check for doing nothing, spend their time barking at 'the rich', i.e., those who work hard and earn their own keep.

You aint nothing but a hound dog just barking all the time, you aint never caught a rabbit, and you aint no friend of mine. That is not my Elvis impersonation that's my Bob&#'s impersonation.

Winston X

Here is my jobs plan... I don't need to wait a week or a month...

Throw all of the illegal aliens out of the country, force all the lazy bastards off the couch and have them pick fruit and vegetables.

If real unemployment is at 20%, there is no need to import illegal laborers.

Stuff that in your crack pipe and smoke it Mr. Huntsman and Mr. Obama...

Hey X, I think you need to put your pipe down!

Immigrants contribute to economy. Undocumented immigrants contribute to the tax rolls and the Social Security Trust Fund. The U.S. Social Security Administration has estimated that undocumented immigrants contribute approximately $8.5 billion in Social Security and Medicare funds each year.

http://www.nilc.org/immspbs/research/research003.htm

You know why?

They don't file taxes. They are afraid to.

Go after companies hiring the illegal worker; if you want jobs for Americans.

absolutely right Bev. I agree. But they won't.

Why won't Obama do that what you say, and which is so simple a cure?

Is Obama a republican Bev.?

Spanky-

absolutely right Bev. I agree. But they won't.

Why won't Obama do that what you say, and which is so simple a cure?

Is Obama a republican Bev.?

Spanky, at least we agree on something the modern day feudal lords need to pay a decent wage to American people and face the penalty for hiring illegal immigrants.

I surprised you didn't know President Obama is a Kenyan, socialist, Muslim, alien, Anti-Christ Messiah???

At least that's what the birther, grossly, ignorant, stupid Tea-nut job amongst others conjure up.

Naaa. Obama is none of those things.

Unfortunately, what he is, is worse.

Dude is clueless.

Just wait for the Big Speech, which will be but an outline of concepts, cause he has no ideas.

Hope is no plan.

Say kate - is Obama's background in economics?

Has he ever had a private job, created a job, had to make payroll?

Love your questions. Keep them up, cause when you point then to the candidates, they flow to the incumbent.

Cool, right?

[Love your questions. Keep them up...]

Awww...picking on another woman...you manly man, you...SWEET!

Oh, you never answered my question on your "super majority" post...what gives? You got me on iggy?

...tick tock, Mediocre Man...tick tock...

Back to you....

Sadly, how very TRUE Tom!

Hell, the Teapublicans have already gone on record saying they will not back it, without even knowing what's in it!

You can bet the media will give more air time to the Republicans plan than President Obamas. The only air time the President's plan will get is all the tea people GOP bashing of it. It's sad our media is more interested in controversy and lies from the tea people GOP, than actual facts.

Someone else mentioned this today; but apparently the only way to get increases in tax revenue is for President Obama to come out AGAINST them!

Un, not sure if you know this Clara bell, but Obama did just that in 12.10.

'member those tax cuts for the "rich" he signed into law?

Man, what's up, you libbies got no memory at all? This was just 8 months ago.

Silly "forgetful" libbies. You all see now why the wheels be coming off, right? Of course you don't.

[Silly "forgetful" libbies. You all see now why the wheels be coming off, right? Of course you don't.]

Harassing ANOTHER woman?...you should have chose "Intimidator-" as a username instead of "Schpanky...

...Mediocre Man is good for you too...better give it some thought...

...now back to you...

Jon Huntsman is the one Obama had better be watching. Yes,I like Huntsman, but no, I don't vote for Republicans. Been there, done that and will not go that way again.

And I'd much rather see intelligent debate!

But, but....Mr. Obama will not be allowed to bring his telepromter....

....there went that idea

What's "intelligent" about a bunch of Obama half-truths ( trying not to call him a Liar) .....

mmmmord1969===What do you have against technical advances? Would you rather have a person reading from notes as a teleprompter. Maybe you are like Ron Paul and want to go back to 1900 technology. I believe I have seen that wonderful man of yours, Paul Ryan use a teleprompter. I just think that is not much of an argument as far as using a teleprompter. One technical invention you should put to use is the spell check as you misspelled teleprompter.

Take a breath Seattle,

Technical advances rock! Hell, I've even installed a few robots at some Government Motors plants. But can we at least be a bit honest in saying that ANY politician that CONSTANTLY just swivels their neck hard left to hard right gets a tad annoying. And I think we can all safely agree that Mr. Obama is not the most passionate soul in politics.

Mr. Obama acts as if him and the lil misses just won the lottery and they're riding this badboy for all it's worth. Good for him. We'd all do the same. Hell, even he knew he wasn't qualified for high caliber politics. No passion = no intelligent thoughts owned by him.

P.S. - Thank you for reassuring me that I'm doing a decent job of debating you liberals when the sum total of your retorts is my lack of spell check. Way funny stuff.

Too bad Obama is "against technical advances."

Dude hates him some ATM.

You all do know that ATM is not just a machine that gives out cash? :)

Yeah the Dems would love that, hold our conservative noses, and nominate a squishy moderate. Then when the actual vote happens in 11/12 we look at both candidates and say, WTF either way I'm voting liberal and so I might as well stay home. Thats what happened in '08, so not another McCain, please.

i never heard of shrub jr before either.....obama's worst day beats any republicant's best day

John, you're a dreamer, just like all Liberals. In your perfect liberal world, everyone gets a hand out and no one has to pay for it. p.s. Unemployment 9.1% = Obama LOSES.

leona corporations/wealthy are getting handouts , but thats ok with your right?????????????????

John,

Corporations and the wealthy do not get "hand outs." The tax laws are written so that they are allowed to keep more of their own money. The tax laws were mostly written, by the way, by Democrats.

so tax breaks for companies for shipping jobs overseas is ok???....oil subsidies????......i want some credible evidence candice about the laws were written by dems...no faux news et al doesnt count as credible

so then candice i will say soc security , medicare etc.... are laws..therefore we cannot call them handouts correct?

if a republicant wins leona we all lose..well except the rich..btw leona, how much is the koch brothers paying you to think?? nevermind t baggers dont think..my bad

John,

The House Ways and Means Committee writes the tax laws. Over the past 35 years, Democrats have chaired and controlled the Committee 60% of the time. So, again, the tax laws were written mostly by Democrats.

Google "House Ways and Means Committee" if you need a source.

John,

I don't believe Social Security and Medicare are "handouts." Most of us believe we paid into the programs, and therefore, should get some our money back in the form of benefits when we are eligible. That's why they are called "entitlements."

John, I am not a tea party member, although they have good ideas and we needed them to rise up to reject Obama economics. I am an Independent and a fiscal conservative. I actually voted for Kerry in 04 after voting for Bush in 2000. I react to how the country is doing and we are in trouble. I believe more of the same is a huge problem because I care about the future for my kids. ( i.e. No more Obama! ) You seem to NOT be worried about another 4 more years of Obamanomics.

At least we know what we get with a Hillary

Yes we do,......we get an extremely beatable Democratic candidate. The right-wing media will dredge up every single minute of every single day of the Clinton presidency from here to infinity. White Water, travelgate, 24/7 Monica, health care, Paula Jones, etc,......etc,....etc,.....on and on and on and on.

You will never hear a real issue covered the entire election season. EVER.

When Limbaugh goes to sleep at night he dreams of a Hillary candidacy.